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JordansBulls
10-06-2012, 08:41 AM
Would you build your team around a Prime Allen Iverson as the Best Player?

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 09:04 AM
Only with a gun to the head of each member of my family.

He's garbage, and you cannot win the NBA with him as your best player.

Aleksandar
10-06-2012, 09:23 AM
Guess I'd go with a different kind of player, but in lack of better options, sure.

KnicksorBust
10-06-2012, 09:32 AM
I do believe someone as talented as him could win as a team's #1 scorer but not as their best player.

superior
10-06-2012, 09:35 AM
Only with a gun to the head of each member of my family.

He's garbage, and you cannot win the NBA with him as your best player.

iverson was garbage??? how old were you in 2001, kid?

theheatles
10-06-2012, 09:42 AM
Probably not, Iverson was amazing but the NBA is the land of giants

IndyRealist
10-06-2012, 10:06 AM
With the right supporting players, yes. But it'd have to be very specific teammates.

A SG quick enough to guard PG's but tall enough to defend SG's.
A spot up SF who could also dribble drive.
A post up PF who can shoot to 15ft.
And a paint-controlling, rebounding C who lives off lobs and PnR.

Given that I'm only taking players with zero chance at an MVP, no HOF'ers, and no max money guys, I'd go with Tony Allen (who would probably be my backup PG for the 30 seconds AI wasn't on the floor), Andre Igoudala, Paul Milsap (?), and Joakim Noah. My bench, using only bench guys, would be Brandon Rush, Mike Dunleavy, Taj Gibson, and Jordan Hill. Dunleavy's a point forward, so Allen doesn't have to handle the ball with the 2nd unit. And he's the only guy that's not a decent to great defender. The wings spread the floor for AI, and except for Milsap the bigs don't post up so they don't clog the paint.

I'm pretty sure I'm under the salary cap, too.

macc
10-06-2012, 10:08 AM
Ofcourse I would, the guy took a team full of scrubs to the finals. In his prime he was one of the top 1-3 players in the NBA. People who say no have just forgotten (or were to young) to see how great he was and what impact he had on the floor.

Philapsychosis
10-06-2012, 10:17 AM
Only with a gun to the head of each member of my family.

He's garbage, and you cannot win the NBA with him as your best player.

Jesus christ, really man!? You couldn't have watched the dude play much then. Dude put it all on the floor every single night. Loved being able to watch him every single night. I'd maybe reconsider that a little. He carried a team of nothing to the NBA finals and were the only team to beat the Lakers in the playoffs that year.

sixer04fan
10-06-2012, 10:34 AM
Ofcourse I would, the guy took a team full of scrubs to the finals. In his prime he was one of the top 1-3 players in the NBA. People who say no have just forgotten (or were to young) to see how great he was and what impact he had on the floor.

This. People who say he's garbage are either too young to remember or never truly watched him. If they did, they would remember just how much better he was than almost everyone else when he played. It was something special to watch.

Chronz
10-06-2012, 10:41 AM
No, Im too young to have seen Iverson play apparently lmfao

JasonJohnHorn
10-06-2012, 10:41 AM
No. I wouldn't. Philly spent a decade trying to build something around him and failed. I think part of that was playing him at SG instead of PG for as long as they did. He is simply too small for SG. But that said, he played a lot of PG in Denver and had a very talented roster and he couldn't get them out of the first round, while Billups got them to the conference finals with only half a season under his belt in Denver.

Iverson, in my mind, is a PG, and he is obviously a score-first PG, and anybody who reads my posts knows that I would take Stockton over any score-first PG in the history of the game.

Iverson has a lot of heart on the court, and he was a very special player, no doubt, but having watched his career and seeing what little TEAM success he had, there is no way I would choose him as my franchise player. That said, I do think it is possible to build a winner around him, but it would be difficult and Iverson would have to be playing PG.

KnicksorBust
10-06-2012, 10:47 AM
Just for kicks...

Allen Iverson - Joe Johnson - Luol Deng - Ryan Anderson - Tyson Chandler

It'd be interesting to see a prime AI on that team.

BabyJayMusic
10-06-2012, 10:50 AM
A.I. In his prime was one of the best SOLO artist in the NBA but never would want him on my team if I'm after a title

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 10:54 AM
iverson was garbage??? how old were you in 2001, kid?

44 years old. I've seen the NBA back to the days of Wilt, Russell, West, etc.

Iverson is one of most divisive and negative influences I've ever seen. He was a ball hog with a meh shooting percentage. He was easy to post up by any decent sized #2. He gambled too much on D. He quit on how many different teams? 3 is was it? Yes, he was garbage.

How old are you young man?

JasonJohnHorn
10-06-2012, 10:55 AM
He carried a team of nothing to the NBA finals and were the only team to beat the Lakers in the playoffs that year.

I would hardly call a team featuring Dikembe Mutumbo a team of nothing. Mutumbo is perhaps the greatest defensive center in the history of the game. Tyrone Hill was putting up nearly a double-double every night. Then they had Matt Gieger coming off the bench for him, and that dude could work the boards. And he had Aaron McKie who was a great spot up shooter. I will admit that Iverson didn't have as much to work with as Shaq did with the Lakers that season (and the officials killed the 76ers in the finals), but the East was very weak that season, so getting to the finals wasn't that hard. I mean, the 76ers had to play the Raptors and the Bucks, and both teams took them to game 7 (it was Larry Borwn's coaching as much as Iverson's play that got them to the finals).

I look at what Iverson had to work with in Denver and the lack of success there as being very telling as well. Two of the best scorers in the league to go along with several front court players who knew how to bang in the paint, rebound and defend, and every year a first-rond exit? What does that say?

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 10:58 AM
This. People who say he's garbage are either too young to remember or never truly watched him. If they did, they would remember just how much better he was than almost everyone else when he played. It was something special to watch.

Rubbish. I'd rather have Mo Cheeks, Bobby Jones, Moses, Dr. J., Cunningham on my team - or any number of great 76'ers than that piece of festering cancerous scum.

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 11:02 AM
Jesus christ, really man!? You couldn't have watched the dude play much then. Dude put it all on the floor every single night. Loved being able to watch him every single night. I'd maybe reconsider that a little. He carried a team of nothing to the NBA finals and were the only team to beat the Lakers in the playoffs that year.

His team that went to the Finals was a lot better than most of you think. One reason that they were "bad" was that Iverson didn't give up the rock. If you ever played you'd know that you stop running your plays at 100% when you know you will never get the ball.

They had players that were better percentage shooters than Iverson, if he had distributed the ball say 25-35% more of the time the team would have played better.

That's the sort of thing a real leader does. Iverson was was all about himself first and always.

superior
10-06-2012, 11:14 AM
44 years old. I've seen the NBA back to the days of Wilt, Russell, West, etc.

Iverson is one of most divisive and negative influences I've ever seen. He was a ball hog with a meh shooting percentage. He was easy to post up by any decent sized #2. He gambled too much on D. He quit on how many different teams? 3 is was it? Yes, he was garbage.

How old are you young man?

LMAO!!!!!!!!! bro youre 44????? what the **** are doing with a customized account with face palms as your signature bro youre WACK lol

xxplayerxx23
10-06-2012, 11:19 AM
Bagwell is right, Iverson is "scum" he quit on his team and was a douche as a person. No denying that but he was not Garbage, he was a very talented player/Scorer. If you give Iverson a defensive big and a solid defensive team around him yes I think they can win it all. KOB's team is intresting, I think they can win it all.

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 11:20 AM
LMAO!!!!!!!!! bro youre 44????? what the **** are doing with a customized account with face palms as your signature bro youre WACK lol

No. I was 44 in 2001 per the question. I have skills.

superior
10-06-2012, 11:22 AM
No. I was 44 in 2001 per the question. I have skills.

HOLY ****!!!!!!! youre 54 years with a personalized avatar, and a picture of a chick in a bikini....GROW UP!!!! LMAO

ChicagoFan4Eva
10-06-2012, 11:26 AM
Derrick Rose > A.I.

SINCESTARBURY25
10-06-2012, 11:32 AM
I say yes in my heart but my head says no.

Pg-Stephon Marbury
sg-Allen Iverson
sf-Paul Pierce
pf-Amare Stoudemire
C-Kevin Garnett (Timberwolves Years)

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 11:38 AM
8 times Iverson was top 3 in FGA. 4 times he was top 3 in FGM. He led the league in FGA 4 times, but never led in FGM.

He had two years were he was a great defender early in his career.

He had three years when his offense was someplace between very good and excellent but he was never excellent (too many missed FG's).

He was 35th all time in 3PT attempts, but 59th in made 3's.

He led the league twice in steals - but also twice in TOV's.

He was an excellent scorer which is a totally different thing - but what else was he excellent at? What? Nothing. Not one blessed thing.

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 11:38 AM
As for his cancerous qualities:

2001-2002: After the defeat, Brown criticized Iverson for missing team practices. Iverson responded by saying, "We're sitting here, I'm supposed to be the franchise player, and we're in here talking about practice," and went on a rant that included the word "practice" over twenty times.

2003-2004: During the latter part of the that season, Iverson bristled under the disciplinarian approach of the Sixers' interim head coach Chris Ford. This led to a number of contentious incidents, including Iverson being suspended for missing practice, fined for failing to notify Ford that he would not attend a game because he was sick, and refusing to play in a game because he felt "insulted" that Ford wanted Iverson to come off the bench as he worked his way back from an injury.

2005-2006: On April 18, 2006, Iverson and Chris Webber arrived late to the Sixers' fan appreciation night and home game finale. Players are expected to report 90 minutes before game time, but both Iverson and Webber arrived around tipoff. Coach Maurice Cheeks notified the media that neither would be playing and general manager Billy King announced that Iverson and Webber would be fined.

2006-2007: Following the disappointing start, Iverson reportedly demanded a trade from the Sixers (although he would deny that). As a result, Iverson was told he would not to play in any more games. During the following game against the Washington Wizards, which was televised nationally on ESPN, Sixers Chairman Ed Snider confirmed the trade rumors by stating "We're going to trade him. At a certain point, you have to come to grips with the fact that it's not working. He wants out and we're ready to accommodate him."

2006-2007: Iverson was fined $25,000 by the NBA for criticizing referee Steve Javie following a game between the Nuggets and Iverson's former team, the Philadelphia 76ers, played January 2, 2007. During the course of the game, Iverson committed two technical fouls and was ejected from the game. After the game, Iverson said, "I thought I got fouled on that play, and I said I thought that he was calling the game personal I should have known that I couldn't say anything anyway. It's been something personal with me and him since I got in the league. This was just the perfect game for him to try and make me look bad."

2008-2009: On April 3, 2009, it was announced by Pistons President of Basketball Operations Joe Dumars that Iverson would not play the remainder of the 2008–09 season. Dumars cited Iverson's ongoing back injury as the reason for his deactivation, although two days prior Iverson stated publicly that he'd rather retire than be moved to the bench as Piston's coach Michael Curry had decided.

2009-2010: On September 10, 2009, Iverson signed a one-year contract with the Memphis Grizzlies. Iverson stated that "God chose Memphis as the place that I will continue my career," and that "I feel that they are committed to developing a winner."

However, Iverson again expressed his displeasure at being a bench player, and left the team on November 7, 2009 for "personal reasons." On November 16, the Grizzlies announced the team terminated his contract by "mutual agreement". Iverson played three games for the Grizzlies.

2010-2011: On October 26, 2010, Yahoo! Sports reported that Iverson agreed in principle to a two-year, $4 million net income contract with Beşiktaş, a Turkish Basketball League team competing in the second-tier level of pan-European professional basketball, the Eurocup (the competition below the Euroleague level). The club announced the signing at a press conference in New York City, on October 29, 2010. Iverson made his debut for Beşiktaş 16 November 2010, in a Eurocup 91-94 loss to Serbian side Hemofarm. Iverson scored 15 points in 23 minutes. Iverson returned to the United States in January 2011 for calf surgery, and never returned to Turky to fullfill his commitment.

In December 2009 he resigned with Philly, played well, but started missing, and he cited his daughters health and quit. So i won't list that one, but, it does seem to fit a pattern.

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 11:43 AM
HOLY ****!!!!!!! youre 54 years with a personalized avatar, and a picture of a chick in a bikini....GROW UP!!!! LMAO

44+11 = 55

I'm retired due to bad health.

I tried posting other pics, but my public demands 20 somethings on my sig, what can I do?

Meanwhile, what facts or observations do have to bring on AI? Haven't seen too much yet.

KNICKS R BACK
10-06-2012, 11:44 AM
there are a lot of people i would pick before him

Stunner
10-06-2012, 11:49 AM
Just for kicks...

Allen Iverson - Joe Johnson - Luol Deng - Ryan Anderson - Tyson Chandler

It'd be interesting to see a prime AI on that team.

That's a nice *** team , could compete depending on the bench

xxplayerxx23
10-06-2012, 11:56 AM
i say yes in my heart but my head says no.

Pg-stephon marbury
sg-allen iverson
sf-paul pierce
pf-amare stoudemire
c-kevin garnett (timberwolves years)

kg>ai.....

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 12:00 PM
Jordan
Iverson
Jordan
Jordan
Jordan

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 12:01 PM
PG : Billups
SG : Iverson
SF : Marion
PF : Millsap or Prime J. O'neal
C : Mutombo

Avenged
10-06-2012, 12:06 PM
Yep. "Building" involves getting the right pieces around him so, yeah. If you do that, you have a chance.

mdm692
10-06-2012, 12:08 PM
With the right supporting players, yes. But it'd have to be very specific teammates.

A SG quick enough to guard PG's but tall enough to defend SG's.
A spot up SF who could also dribble drive.
A post up PF who can shoot to 15ft.
And a paint-controlling, rebounding C who lives off lobs and PnR.

Given that I'm only taking players with zero chance at an MVP, no HOF'ers, and no max money guys, I'd go with Tony Allen (who would probably be my backup PG for the 30 seconds AI wasn't on the floor), Andre Igoudala, Paul Milsap (?), and Joakim Noah. My bench, using only bench guys, would be Brandon Rush, Mike Dunleavy, Taj Gibson, and Jordan Hill. Dunleavy's a point forward, so Allen doesn't have to handle the ball with the 2nd unit. And he's the only guy that's not a decent to great defender. The wings spread the floor for AI, and except for Milsap the bigs don't post up so they don't clog the paint.

I'm pretty sure I'm under the salary cap, too.

Using players from early 2000's

Iverson-Bowen-Marion-Malone-Shaq??

IDK if this really meets your criteria but the only players with Max contracts would be Shaq and Iverson. Malone better give me a discount for his only ring =P.

Todays players
Iverson-Grant Hill-LBJ(duh or KD)-Jsmoove-Gortat

Vinylman
10-06-2012, 12:11 PM
The question was "would you" not "could do"

the answer is obviously no... he would not be in the top 25 players of his era that I "WOULD" build around.

Chronz
10-06-2012, 12:27 PM
Just for kicks...

Allen Iverson - Joe Johnson - Luol Deng - Ryan Anderson - Tyson Chandler

It'd be interesting to see a prime AI on that team.

Teams always fared better with AI at the 2 but with a guy like JJ, I think AI can play the 1. I think that was the main problem in Denver, they put him next to a guy who can help him score (Melo) but they had to pair him with Anthony Carter to get someone who could help run the offense. JJ allows AI to play the 1 while still focusing on scoring. JJ is probably the best backcourt player you could pair with AI and he still be the best player on the team.

b@llhog24
10-06-2012, 12:50 PM
I do believe someone as talented as him could win as a team's #1 scorer but not as their best player.

+1


HOLY ****!!!!!!! youre 54 years with a personalized avatar, and a picture of a chick in a bikini....GROW UP!!!! LMAO


You got anything of substance to post in this thread?


Using players from early 2000's

Iverson-Bowen-Marion-Malone-Shaq??

IDK if this really meets your criteria but the only players with Max contracts would be Shaq and Iverson. Malone better give me a discount for his only ring =P.

Todays players
Iverson-Grant Hill-LBJ(duh or KD)-Jsmoove-Gortat

If Shaq is on that team then technically you're building around Shaq and not AI.

heyman321
10-06-2012, 12:58 PM
Ofcourse I would, the guy took a team full of scrubs to the finals. In his prime he was one of the top 1-3 players in the NBA. People who say no have just forgotten (or were to young) to see how great he was and what impact he had on the floor.

Completely false. That team was a defensive juggernaut built completely to cater to Allen Iverson's skills.

LAKERMANIA
10-06-2012, 01:13 PM
That 2001 Sixers team had the MVP, the Coach of the Year, the Sixth Man of the Year and the Defensive Player of the year on one team... I would hardly call that team a "bunch of scrubs"..

And no I wouldn't have Iverson on my team, it's a guarantee that your team is never going all the way..

JordansBulls
10-06-2012, 01:47 PM
Derrick Rose > A.I.

WTF does that have to do with anything?

P Harvy
10-06-2012, 02:01 PM
If I had an amplitude of other choices then I'd probably explore those other options but AI took scrubs to the finals. It's essentially another LeBron in Cleveland hypothetical. He could definitely be the guy on a championship team no doubt about it. He just didn't have the right guys around him.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2012, 06:37 PM
I do believe someone as talented as him could win as a team's #1 scorer but not as their best player.

I think this is the perfect answer.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2012, 06:38 PM
If I had an amplitude of other choices then I'd probably explore those other options but AI took scrubs to the finals. It's essentially another LeBron in Cleveland hypothetical. He could definitely be the guy on a championship team no doubt about it. He just didn't have the right guys around him.

see LAKERMANIA's post. I am so sick of Iverson fans pointing to his so called lack of help. It was pretty damn good. Just because you don't have another dude who can light it up for 20 a night doesn't mean you don't have excellent basketball players on the roster.

Kashmir13579
10-06-2012, 06:39 PM
I'd rather build around an aging Steve Nash.

P Harvy
10-06-2012, 06:49 PM
see LAKERMANIA's post. I am so sick of Iverson fans pointing to his so called lack of help. It was pretty damn good. Just because you don't have another dude who can light it up for 20 a night doesn't mean you don't have excellent basketball players on the roster.

The man played with Eric snow and Matt Geiger from what I can remember lol and they lost in the finals to arguably one of the greatest centers in the history of our league so I mean I think AIs basketball ability is being undermined in this thread but that's just my opinion

abe_froman
10-06-2012, 06:55 PM
of course i would,he has the talent but it'd be difficult. now i dont think philly always put in the best effort to built around him but the problem comes with the attitude.sure he was all heart but wasnt leadership material(especially until his later years),which would make it hard.but his talent gives me the best shot

Hawkeye15
10-06-2012, 06:56 PM
The man played with Eric snow and Matt Geiger from what I can remember lol and they lost in the finals to arguably one of the greatest centers in the history of our league so I mean I think AIs basketball ability is being undermined in this thread but that's just my opinion

He played with an unreal defense, a great coach, and in a system that was designed to cater to his trigger finger offensive style. Again, his defenders state he played with nobody, without actually evaluating that roster.

But whatever. I have argued over AI enough. Done with it. My opinion is well known. Iverson, while a great player, will forever be an overrated player by the masses imo.

SMH!
10-06-2012, 07:05 PM
It's gonna hurt for all you when Iverson hits the hall of fame, 1st ballot in fact, it is gonna be a beautiful day when that day arrives, blind hate because of his baggage and his persona but AI in his prime was one of the greatest scorers.

heyman321
10-06-2012, 07:12 PM
We talking about practice???? Had to.

DubbyDubbs
10-06-2012, 07:12 PM
i would build a team around him. It aint easy to score 30+ points while putting up assists and steals.

Prime Iverson would be a top 5 player in the league right now and that means you build your team around him if you have the chance.

P Harvy
10-06-2012, 07:26 PM
He played with an unreal defense, a great coach, and in a system that was designed to cater to his trigger finger offensive style. Again, his defenders state he played with nobody, without actually evaluating that roster.

But whatever. I have argued over AI enough. Done with it. My opinion is well known. Iverson, while a great player, will forever be an overrated player by the masses imo.

He's one of the all time great pure scorers. That amounts to at least something

Hawkeye15
10-06-2012, 07:39 PM
He's one of the all time great pure scorers. That amounts to at least something

one of the all time great volume scorers. "Pure" to me needs efficiency at a high level.

P Harvy
10-06-2012, 08:05 PM
Ill respectively disagree. Not everything needs to amount to a stat.. Whether he shot a certain percentage or what not really is irrelevant when determining a pure scorer because he could find a way to score regardless. He was a deadly creative offensive player and his main attribute was that he could score just about as good as anyone.. He had to jack a ton of extra shots in his career because his team was usually below average and I'm sure that amounted to lower percentages

TheNumber37
10-06-2012, 08:23 PM
In his prime he was MVP, in 2001 he was better than


billups
Iverson
Battier
Rasheed Wallace
Marcus Camby.

LAKERMANIA
10-06-2012, 08:29 PM
In his prime he was MVP, in 2001 he was better than


billups
Iverson
Battier
Rasheed Wallace
Marcus Camby.

:confused: I'm confused..

RenegadeRiot36
10-06-2012, 08:42 PM
Im assuming there are no superstar supporters right? In that case give me Anderson Varejao, Paul Milsap, Paul George, and Gerald Wallace. Fill the bench in. I guarentee you a championship with that lineup.

Knowledge
10-06-2012, 08:54 PM
No. He is overrated by most people.

Swashcuff
10-06-2012, 09:02 PM
That 2001 Sixers team had the MVP,

Who was Allen Iverson so obviously that's not part of his cast.


the Coach of the Year,

Brown wasn't a player.


the Sixth Man of the Year

Who in no way shape or form deserved the award. He played his best ball in a starter capacity and when he went to the bench he had very little impact on the game.


and the Defensive Player of the year on one team...

For half the season and the playoffs. It's not like he played with Mutumbo for years or something. It's rare that a team's 2nd best player is acquired at the midway point in the season and they make the Finals.


I would hardly call that team a "bunch of scrubs"..

Neither would I but compared to other finals teams in league history that's as close to a bunch of scrubs as you'd ever get.


it's my opinion that your team is never going all the way..

Fixec

P Harvy
10-06-2012, 09:07 PM
Swashcuff just took a dump on everyone

Swashcuff
10-06-2012, 09:15 PM
see LAKERMANIA's post. I am so sick of Iverson fans pointing to his so called lack of help. It was pretty damn good. Just because you don't have another dude who can light it up for 20 a night doesn't mean you don't have excellent basketball players on the roster.

Hi Hawkeye15 :)

It's me again. You're friendly (not so friendly to some) neighborhood Iverson fanboy.

Who are these "excellent" players on his roster? Dike? K I'll give you that. Anyone else? That team had NO spacing, 1 other player who create a shot for himself (McKie) and 2 others who could have created for other (Snow and McKie), they had not a single player on the roster averaging over 12 ppg (only player that was capable of doing so was McKie but with him playing so much on the bench those chances were shot) making them the only team in the modern era of basketball to make the post season with just on 12+ ppg scorer, they had NO players who scored over 25 points in a single game, they had no low/mid/high post presence on offense.

Remember Hawk remember you're on record as saying how much you despise the whole NBA awards thing. Mckie averaged 14.1, 4.5 and 6.5 as a starter next to A.I. (when A.I. was arguably at his best that season playing off the ball even more so than when he played with Snow) but as a bench player and A.I.'s reserve he averaged 9.8, 3.8 and 3.7. Now tell me is there any credibility in him winning the 6MOY when 1 he wasn't even that good as a 6th man and two there were quite a few players who were more deserving?

All world D is great but you're not going to beat anybody if you only have one capable offensive option. Also let's not act as if that D was as good as the mid 00 Spurs/Pistons. You need MUCH more to win a championship than just great D and that much more comes on the offensive end.

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 09:21 PM
It's gonna hurt for all you when Iverson hits the hall of fame, 1st ballot in fact, it is gonna be a beautiful day when that day arrives, blind hate because of his baggage and his persona but AI in his prime was one of the greatest scorers.

Of course he is going to the HOF. The cognoscenti know who Iverson was. It's the masses that thrill to dunks, 3 pointers, and egocentric gunners. They deserve their entertainment.

The NBA has been debased in many ways over the years, one more slight won't change anything.

Believe me my disdain for that piece of **** is not blind, in fact is is informed by over 4 decades as a fan and many years as a player and coach.

Swashcuff
10-06-2012, 09:31 PM
As for his cancerous qualities:

2001-2002: After the defeat, Brown criticized Iverson for missing team practices. Iverson responded by saying, "We're sitting here, I'm supposed to be the franchise player, and we're in here talking about practice," and went on a rant that included the word "practice" over twenty times.

2003-2004: During the latter part of the that season, Iverson bristled under the disciplinarian approach of the Sixers' interim head coach Chris Ford. This led to a number of contentious incidents, including Iverson being suspended for missing practice, fined for failing to notify Ford that he would not attend a game because he was sick, and refusing to play in a game because he felt "insulted" that Ford wanted Iverson to come off the bench as he worked his way back from an injury.

2005-2006: On April 18, 2006, Iverson and Chris Webber arrived late to the Sixers' fan appreciation night and home game finale. Players are expected to report 90 minutes before game time, but both Iverson and Webber arrived around tipoff. Coach Maurice Cheeks notified the media that neither would be playing and general manager Billy King announced that Iverson and Webber would be fined.

2006-2007: Following the disappointing start, Iverson reportedly demanded a trade from the Sixers (although he would deny that). As a result, Iverson was told he would not to play in any more games. During the following game against the Washington Wizards, which was televised nationally on ESPN, Sixers Chairman Ed Snider confirmed the trade rumors by stating "We're going to trade him. At a certain point, you have to come to grips with the fact that it's not working. He wants out and we're ready to accommodate him."

2006-2007: Iverson was fined $25,000 by the NBA for criticizing referee Steve Javie following a game between the Nuggets and Iverson's former team, the Philadelphia 76ers, played January 2, 2007. During the course of the game, Iverson committed two technical fouls and was ejected from the game. After the game, Iverson said, "I thought I got fouled on that play, and I said I thought that he was calling the game personal I should have known that I couldn't say anything anyway. It's been something personal with me and him since I got in the league. This was just the perfect game for him to try and make me look bad."

2008-2009: On April 3, 2009, it was announced by Pistons President of Basketball Operations Joe Dumars that Iverson would not play the remainder of the 200809 season. Dumars cited Iverson's ongoing back injury as the reason for his deactivation, although two days prior Iverson stated publicly that he'd rather retire than be moved to the bench as Piston's coach Michael Curry had decided.

2009-2010: On September 10, 2009, Iverson signed a one-year contract with the Memphis Grizzlies. Iverson stated that "God chose Memphis as the place that I will continue my career," and that "I feel that they are committed to developing a winner."

However, Iverson again expressed his displeasure at being a bench player, and left the team on November 7, 2009 for "personal reasons." On November 16, the Grizzlies announced the team terminated his contract by "mutual agreement". Iverson played three games for the Grizzlies.

2010-2011: On October 26, 2010, Yahoo! Sports reported that Iverson agreed in principle to a two-year, $4 million net income contract with Beşiktaş, a Turkish Basketball League team competing in the second-tier level of pan-European professional basketball, the Eurocup (the competition below the Euroleague level). The club announced the signing at a press conference in New York City, on October 29, 2010. Iverson made his debut for Beşiktaş 16 November 2010, in a Eurocup 91-94 loss to Serbian side Hemofarm. Iverson scored 15 points in 23 minutes. Iverson returned to the United States in January 2011 for calf surgery, and never returned to Turky to fullfill his commitment.

In December 2009 he resigned with Philly, played well, but started missing, and he cited his daughters health and quit. So i won't list that one, but, it does seem to fit a pattern.

Wow wait this is the best you can do Bagwell? You're not going to tell us how he beat his wife, sent her out in the cold naked and chased after her with a gun, or that he threw a chair at an innocent woman in a bowling alley, or that he partied more than he practiced? Instead you're going to tell us he criticized a notorious ref and that he said practice a bunch of times after being questioned by a reporter after a tough first round exit and instead of being questioned about the games he was questioned about practice or that he did what damn near every Franchise player on a losing team does he demanded a trade as is his RIGHT. Really?

Honestly I'm a fanboy and if I wanted to give reasons as to why people call A.I. a cancer I'd do a better job than quoting such rubbish. You're clearly reaching but I must admit I give you some credit for not bringing up his off the court "antics" as your reasoning.

Oh and you do realize that none of that was quoted from his MVP season or his days in Denver. Funny how he didn't have any "incidences" when he actually had a good players around him which by the way is what this entire thread is about :speechless: :rolleyes:

Swashcuff
10-06-2012, 09:39 PM
For the record Bagwell I don't care to debate A.I. with you so if you reply to me with any kind of garbage about A.I. is such a horrible human being and is the scum of the earth trust me you're wasting your time because I am not replying to that ****. I'll debate with guys like Hawkeye15, Chronz etc though they too aren't fond of A.I. at least they can have some sense of rational thinking when talking about him unlike yourself with utter and complete delusional hatred.

tp13baby
10-06-2012, 09:42 PM
44+11 = 55

I'm retired due to bad health.

I tried posting other pics, but my public demands 20 somethings on my sig, what can I do?

Meanwhile, what facts or observations do have to bring on AI? Haven't seen too much yet.

You need to change your signature to Reba or someone like that.

b@llhog24
10-06-2012, 09:47 PM
You need to change your signature to Reba or someone like that.

:laugh:

IndyRealist
10-06-2012, 09:48 PM
Im assuming there are no superstar supporters right? In that case give me Anderson Varejao, Paul Milsap, Paul George, and Gerald Wallace. Fill the bench in. I guarentee you a championship with that lineup.

I don't know about guarnatees, but that's exactly how you build a lineup around AI. Back then, if you could keep the game in the low 80's, and Iverson could get you 30 by himself....

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 10:43 PM
Wow wait this is the best you can do Bagwell? You're not going to tell us how he beat his wife, sent her out in the cold naked and chased after her with a gun, or that he threw a chair at an innocent woman in a bowling alley, or that he partied more than he practiced? Instead you're going to tell us he criticized a notorious ref and that he said practice a bunch of times after being questioned by a reporter after a tough first round exit and instead of being questioned about the games he was questioned about practice or that he did what damn near every Franchise player on a losing team does he demanded a trade as is his RIGHT. Really?

Honestly I'm a fanboy and if I wanted to give reasons as to why people call A.I. a cancer I'd do a better job than quoting such rubbish. You're clearly reaching but I must admit I give you some credit for not bringing up his off the court "antics" as your reasoning.

Oh and you do realize that none of that was quoted from his MVP season or his days in Denver. Funny how he didn't have any "incidences" when he actually had a good players around him which by the way is what this entire thread is about

I went for the PG version of the stories, and left others out. I have a lot of respect for the 76'ers, but he's a piece of trash, and he's vastly overrated as a player.

You admit you are a fanboy, so pardon me while I give your words all the due that they deserve. None.

BTW, the responses are generally negative or very tepid so far. Guess folks have finally come to their senses about that pile.

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 10:58 PM
I'll debate with guys like Hawkeye15, Chronz etc though they too aren't fond of A.I. at least they can have some sense of rational thinking when talking about him unlike yourself with utter and complete delusional hatred.

You must have missed posts #18 and #25.

What's delusional about those posts? Or is it easier to defend your binky by painting his critics with brush so you can side step the many issues with Iverson as a player, never mind a teammate.

Swashcuff
10-06-2012, 11:30 PM
I went for the PG version of the stories, and left others out. I have a lot of respect for the 76'ers, but he's a piece of trash, and he's vastly overrated as a player.

You admit you are a fanboy, so pardon me while I give your words all the due that they deserve. None.

BTW, the responses are generally negative or very tepid so far. Guess folks have finally come to their senses about that pile.

I'll always maintain that I am a fanboy that doesn't mean I can't be real about A.I. Unlike your normal homer I'm not a homer. I can be just as critical about him as the next guy but I can also just as appreciative about him as the other guy. You just plain and simple hate a man you think you know everything about and know nothing about.

Also as for the responses the very same would have been said when A.I. was a player that's what I expected its not about people coming to their sense.

I can guarantee you though that there are very few people that share your kind of hatred towards any player let alone Allen Iverson. Usually when that's the case it isn't the player its the hater who has the issues.

ink
10-07-2012, 01:04 AM
You must have missed posts #18 and #25.

What's delusional about those posts? Or is it easier to defend your binky by painting his critics with brush so you can side step the many issues with Iverson as a player, never mind a teammate.

I don't even care what he was like as a human being, I couldn't stand watching him as a player.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-07-2012, 09:51 AM
ONLY if i get to choose the talent around him..

than... reluctantly, id say yes.

KnicksorBust
10-07-2012, 10:55 AM
I say yes in my heart but my head says no.

Pg-Stephon Marbury
sg-Allen Iverson
sf-Paul Pierce
pf-Amare Stoudemire
C-Kevin Garnett (Timberwolves Years)

You are cheating. Pierce and KG are the two best players on that team. You lose but thank you for playing.

KnicksorBust
10-07-2012, 11:01 AM
PG : Billups
SG : Iverson
SF : Marion
PF : Millsap or Prime J. O'neal
C : Mutombo

What year are you thinking with this team? Seems like you're mixing and matching...


Using players from early 2000's

Iverson-Bowen-Marion-Malone-Shaq??

IDK if this really meets your criteria but the only players with Max contracts would be Shaq and Iverson. Malone better give me a discount for his only ring =P.

Todays players
Iverson-Grant Hill-LBJ(duh or KD)-Jsmoove-Gortat

Come on. Iverson has to be the "best player." Not even close.

KnicksorBust
10-07-2012, 11:09 AM
In his prime he was MVP, in 2001 he was better than


billups
Iverson
Battier
Rasheed Wallace
Marcus Camby.

Iverson was so good he was better than Iverson. Do you think later in his career he was still better than Iverson or only during his MVP season? :laugh:


Hi Hawkeye15 :)

It's me again. You're friendly (not so friendly to some) neighborhood Iverson fanboy.

Who are these "excellent" players on his roster? Dike? K I'll give you that. Anyone else? That team had NO spacing, 1 other player who create a shot for himself (McKie) and 2 others who could have created for other (Snow and McKie), they had not a single player on the roster averaging over 12 ppg (only player that was capable of doing so was McKie but with him playing so much on the bench those chances were shot) making them the only team in the modern era of basketball to make the post season with just on 12+ ppg scorer, they had NO players who scored over 25 points in a single game, they had no low/mid/high post presence on offense.

Remember Hawk remember you're on record as saying how much you despise the whole NBA awards thing. Mckie averaged 14.1, 4.5 and 6.5 as a starter next to A.I. (when A.I. was arguably at his best that season playing off the ball even more so than when he played with Snow) but as a bench player and A.I.'s reserve he averaged 9.8, 3.8 and 3.7. Now tell me is there any credibility in him winning the 6MOY when 1 he wasn't even that good as a 6th man and two there were quite a few players who were more deserving?

All world D is great but you're not going to beat anybody if you only have one capable offensive option. Also let's not act as if that D was as good as the mid 00 Spurs/Pistons. You need MUCH more to win a championship than just great D and that much more comes on the offensive end.

Yeah we can rip apart AI's effeciency and ball-hogging and all that but I give him all the credit in the world for that Finals run. You put a great player like Paul Pierce on that team and I don't believe for a second that he takes them to the Finals. Iverson is one of the few players in NBA History that could have scored at that volume to carry that team's offense through the playoffs.

mike_noodles
10-07-2012, 11:26 AM
Believe it or not, a team did do this once and made it the finals once but no rings.

Why is this question being asked? We all know how it played out already.

goose14741
10-07-2012, 12:05 PM
Only with a gun to the head of each member of my family.

He's garbage, and you cannot win the NBA with him as your best player.

I think he means young iverson

JordansBulls
10-07-2012, 12:11 PM
see LAKERMANIA's post. I am so sick of Iverson fans pointing to his so called lack of help. It was pretty damn good. Just because you don't have another dude who can light it up for 20 a night doesn't mean you don't have excellent basketball players on the roster.

Then why do you say the same thing with Lebron when he in fact had guys who won titles as the man before on the team?

:)

Heatcheck
10-07-2012, 12:49 PM
I do believe someone as talented as him could win as a team's #1 scorer but not as their best player.

i agree, but his personality wouldnt allow him to coexist with that type of player, even if he is still the number 1 scorer.

Heatcheck
10-07-2012, 12:55 PM
Then why do you say the same thing with Lebron when he in fact had guys who won titles as the man before on the team?

:)

Iverson had very good role players, they built a team of excellent defenders and rebounders (never thought that was the right way to go). and they moved offensive players like larry hughes, trying to maximize Iversons impact.

Lebron had players who werent good enough at anything, so they are called role players. Its the same result, but the talent level was definitely different.

jericho
10-07-2012, 01:08 PM
Only with a gun to the head of each member of my family.

He's garbage, and you cannot win the NBA with him as your best player.

disagree with your comment love your sig :D

jericho
10-07-2012, 01:17 PM
AI
Shumpert
Iggy
Anderson or Ilyasova
Chandler

you guys can fill the rest of the bench of course he can do it back then he did shoot as much as kobe but there was nobody that could stop him when he was on fire which was pretty much most of the time

jericho
10-07-2012, 01:18 PM
Iverson had very good role players, they built a team of excellent defenders and rebounders (never thought that was the right way to go). and they moved offensive players like larry hughes, trying to maximize Iversons impact.

Lebron had players who werent good enough at anything, so they are called role players. Its the same result, but the talent level was definitely different.

sure sure sure youll just say wtvr to defend lebron rite

JordansBulls
10-07-2012, 01:19 PM
Iverson had very good role players, they built a team of excellent defenders and rebounders (never thought that was the right way to go). and they moved offensive players like larry hughes, trying to maximize Iversons impact.

Lebron had players who werent good enough at anything, so they are called role players. Its the same result, but the talent level was definitely different.

How so? Ben Wallace was only 33 years old while Dikembe was 35. Also Lebron had the previous year allstar game MVP winner in Shaq which was a more recent Allstar game MVP winner than Lebron himself.
So those guys by no means were roll players. These are proven stars in the NBA and champions as the man.
The Cavs built the team around excellent defenders and rebounders and proven winners as well.

5ass
10-07-2012, 01:39 PM
How so? Ben Wallace was only 33 years old while Dikembe was 35. Also Lebron had the previous year allstar game MVP winner in Shaq which was a more recent Allstar game MVP winner than Lebron himself.
So those guys by no means were roll players. These are proven stars in the NBA and champions as the man.
The Cavs built the team around excellent defenders and rebounders and proven winners as well.

What is this jibberish?

Swashcuff
10-07-2012, 01:45 PM
i agree, but his personality wouldnt allow him to coexist with that type of player, even if he is still the number 1 scorer.

Wait so he didn't coexist with Carmelo? This notion that A.I. Wouldn't coexist with other great players is completely baseless IMO. He was spoken of highly for his ability to coexist in the 04 Olympics and how willing he was to defer to guys like TD and others around him. Had Kobe been in A.I. shoes for his career the same would have been said about him teaming up with a player like Shaq but look how that worked out.

Swashcuff
10-07-2012, 01:46 PM
How so? Ben Wallace was only 33 years old while Dikembe was 35. Also Lebron had the previous year allstar game MVP winner in Shaq which was a more recent Allstar game MVP winner than Lebron himself.
So those guys by no means were roll players. These are proven stars in the NBA and champions as the man.
The Cavs built the team around excellent defenders and rebounders and proven winners as well.

JB I'm begging you stop. Stop this **** right now. You're giving me a headache every ****ing time I read these sorts of garbage posts.

jericho
10-07-2012, 01:50 PM
Hi Hawkeye15 :)

It's me again. You're friendly (not so friendly to some) neighborhood Iverson fanboy.

Who are these "excellent" players on his roster? Dike? K I'll give you that. Anyone else? That team had NO spacing, 1 other player who create a shot for himself (McKie) and 2 others who could have created for other (Snow and McKie), they had not a single player on the roster averaging over 12 ppg (only player that was capable of doing so was McKie but with him playing so much on the bench those chances were shot) making them the only team in the modern era of basketball to make the post season with just on 12+ ppg scorer, they had NO players who scored over 25 points in a single game, they had no low/mid/high post presence on offense.

Remember Hawk remember you're on record as saying how much you despise the whole NBA awards thing. Mckie averaged 14.1, 4.5 and 6.5 as a starter next to A.I. (when A.I. was arguably at his best that season playing off the ball even more so than when he played with Snow) but as a bench player and A.I.'s reserve he averaged 9.8, 3.8 and 3.7. Now tell me is there any credibility in him winning the 6MOY when 1 he wasn't even that good as a 6th man and two there were quite a few players who were more deserving?

All world D is great but you're not going to beat anybody if you only have one capable offensive option. Also let's not act as if that D was as good as the mid 00 Spurs/Pistons. You need MUCH more to win a championship than just great D and that much more comes on the offensive end.

tho sometimes i disagree with you i just love how you come over here and start sh****** on there so called facts bringing the points they fogot to add
everybody knows he didnt have anything to work with just mutombo
and mckie sucked bad
get him a gm the could build a good team round him and he would have deff won a ring

JordansBulls
10-07-2012, 02:06 PM
JB I'm begging you stop. Stop this **** right now. You're giving me a headache every ****ing time I read these sorts of garbage posts.

Those are facts? If they want to use facts with Iverson, then why can't they be used for Lebron as well? Why always a double standard when it comes to Lebron? Why when other guys like Rose and Iverson maybe were the only star on there team it gets said they had good defenders/rebounders, but then when it is mentioned that Lebron had proven champions including guys who won titles as the man and even a guy who was the allstar game mvp winner the season before and more recent than Lebron it gets thrown under the rug so as to pump up Lebron saying he had nothing to work with when in fact they had the #1 SRS rating as well.

Swashcuff
10-07-2012, 02:10 PM
Those are facts? If they want to use facts with Iverson, then why can't they be used for Lebron as well? Why always a double standard when it comes to Lebron? Why when other guys like Rose and Iverson maybe were the only star on there team it gets said they had good defenders/rebounders, but then when it is mentioned that Lebron had proven champions including guys who won titles as the man and even a guy who was the allstar game mvp winner the season before and more recent than Lebron it gets thrown under the rug so as to pump up Lebron saying he had nothing to work with when in fact they had the #1 SRS rating as well.

There is a fact I want to tel you about yourself but if I do so I'll get banned so JB you're the winner mmmkay :)

KnickaBocka.44
10-07-2012, 02:23 PM
How so? Ben Wallace was only 33 years old while Dikembe was 35. Also Lebron had the previous year allstar game MVP winner in Shaq which was a more recent Allstar game MVP winner than Lebron himself.
So those guys by no means were roll players. These are proven stars in the NBA and champions as the man.
The Cavs built the team around excellent defenders and rebounders and proven winners as well.

Ben Wallace was not "the man" on that Pistons championship team. Defensive anchor, sure. But the Pistons, that year, were the definition of a team--getting equal contributions in different areas of the game from different players.

To asnwer the OP question-- Not in a million years.

JordansBulls
10-07-2012, 03:20 PM
Ben Wallace was not "the man" on that Pistons championship team. Defensive anchor, sure. But the Pistons, that year, were the definition of a team--getting equal contributions in different areas of the game from different players.

To asnwer the OP question-- Not in a million years.

Ben Wallace was clearly the man, he had been there for years and was the only allstar on the team including finished 7th in MVP voting.

KnicksorBust
10-07-2012, 03:32 PM
AI
Shumpert
Iggy
Anderson or Ilyasova
Chandler

you guys can fill the rest of the bench of course he can do it back then he did shoot as much as kobe but there was nobody that could stop him when he was on fire which was pretty much most of the time

Why did you take the lineup I made and make it worse?

P Harvy
10-07-2012, 03:34 PM
Only a Knicks fan puts two Knicks players on a hypothetical roster with AI lol

meloman1592
10-07-2012, 03:51 PM
To answer this thread in one word...YESSSSSSSSSS

KnickaBocka.44
10-07-2012, 03:58 PM
Ben Wallace was clearly the man, he had been there for years and was the only allstar on the team including finished 7th in MVP voting.

Just no. He was a great defender and rebounder but was not "the man". He shot 42% from the field and 49% from the line and was a complete liability on the offensive end of the floor. Without him they wouldn't have won the championship but you could say the same thing for Billups, Prince, Sheed or Rip. If anyone was "the man" on that team, it was Mr. Big Shot Chauncey Billups.

JordansBulls
10-07-2012, 04:08 PM
Just no. He was a great defender and rebounder but was not "the man". He shot 42% from the field and 49% from the line and was a complete liability on the offensive end of the floor. Without him they wouldn't have won the championship but you could say the same thing for Billups, Prince, Sheed or Rip. If anyone was "the man" on that team, it was Mr. Big Shot Chauncey Billups.

No Ben Wallace was the man on the Pistons teams. He was there when he made the Pistons good. He was the only guy who made any all nba teams on that team from 2002-2004. He was the only allstar on that team in 2004. Billups was a nobody. Remember he played with prime KG and the team still couldn't do anything. Ben Wallace was the primary reason the Pistons were only good. Finished 8th in MVP voting in 2003 and 7th in 2004 and was DPOY in 2002 and 2003 and then again in 2005 and 2006.

MickeyMgl
10-07-2012, 04:10 PM
Would you build your team around a Prime Allen Iverson as the Best Player?

No

MickeyMgl
10-07-2012, 04:22 PM
44+11 = 55

I'm retired due to bad health.

I tried posting other pics, but my public demands 20 somethings on my sig, what can I do?

Meanwhile, what facts or observations do have to bring on AI? Haven't seen too much yet.

It appears that the subject was changed.

In summary...

"Anybody who says no was too young to have seen him play."

"I'm 55. I saw him play."

"Holy crap. You're 55. Get a life."

I guess he was counting on nobody actually old enough to have seen Iverson's entire career - like you and I - posting on this board. I would not build a team around Iverson, either.

jericho
10-07-2012, 04:24 PM
Why did you take the lineup I made and make it worse?

tho george is better than shump and george also has a good 3 pt shoot i just like shump that was my homer pick over there he my fav knick rit now
and any team that has iverson on the floor needs a stretch 4 thats why put anderson or ilyasova

ps ilyasova is better than anderson he can shoot as well as him but also plays d nobody knows bout him cuz he with the bucks


Only a Knicks fan puts two Knicks players on a hypothetical roster with AI lol

why does it always have to be bout the knick fans or something like that like i said b4 on the post shump was my only homer pick chandler i couldnt care less he just needs a good defensive presence on the inside and i was thinking more bout cap space and all that stuff i also didnt want to put a super team its easy to do that lets give it a try for a team with iverson

iverson
dwade
lebron
love
d12

is that better for you now???????

KnickaBocka.44
10-07-2012, 04:42 PM
No Ben Wallace was the man on the Pistons teams. He was there when he made the Pistons good. He was the only guy who made any all nba teams on that team from 2002-2004. He was the only allstar on that team in 2004. Billups was a nobody. Remember he played with prime KG and the team still couldn't do anything. Ben Wallace was the primary reason the Pistons were only good. Finished 8th in MVP voting in 2003 and 7th in 2004 and was DPOY in 2002 and 2003 and then again in 2005 and 2006.

That's all fine and well but without any of the other players on that team, they don't win the championship. Getting back to my main point there was no one on the team who was "the man". Not every championship team has someone who is "the man" and the 03-04 Pistons are a prime example of that.

And don't say that Billups was a nobody and use his career up until that point to justify it because Wallace wasn't anyone up until that team came together either. The year the Pistons won the championship Billups was the leading assist man, second leading scorer, a lockdown defender and the most clutch player the team had.

In addition, when Billups was playing with prime KG he was made to play off the ball or come off the bench in most cases because Terrell Brandon was still there playing PG.

njnets
10-07-2012, 04:56 PM
i think you could.

need a strong minded coach that can control the team.

also need some veterans on the team. and if you get a guy that iverson is comfortable with to share the ball with on the post, then yea, i think it can be done.

he never had great help on his sixer teams. iverson is not ideal for building a championship team around but it can be done with the right environment.

bagwell368
10-07-2012, 11:09 PM
I think he means young iverson

Any Iverson. No.

bagwell368
10-07-2012, 11:20 PM
You just plain and simple hate a man you think you know everything about and know nothing about.

I grew up in the days when Bill Russell was worshipped. In fact he lived about 6 miles away from me. I played college hoops before there was a 3 point line. Everything I ever learned about basketball was team first, defense, smart passing, rebounding, smart shots. Players like AI exemplify almost the opposite. Selfish, poor shot selection, played D for the steal or when the mood hit him. AI is great for highlight reels, and the underdog routine. If there was a league that was 1 on 1 for guys under 6' - he'd probably be one of the 5 all time greats. But that's the problem, he plays like it's a one man game.

On top of that he disrespected his coaches, his teams, and himself. When he started to decline he refused to age gracefully, instead forcing his way off of several teams.

I don't need to know the man personally, and I wouldn't want to know him. But I can see enough of his game over the years to be able to judge him as a player. The press has been forthcoming with his behavior off the floor and away from the cameras. There is nothing charming about him in that sphere either.


I can guarantee you though that there are very few people that share your kind of hatred towards any player let alone Allen Iverson. Usually when that's the case it isn't the player its the hater who has the issues.

Just because I can turn a phrase to polarize a discussion, it doesn't mean I can't judge the player fairly. BTW, I'm still waiting for an answer to my two earlier topical posts, and now this one.

rex.reyesiii
10-07-2012, 11:55 PM
Maybe for entertainment <-- which I was back then(entertained) but hoped he could still win it all. Then I lost all hope after 2005-2006... (jumped the HEAT Bandwagon)

So NO. (not anymore)...

JLynn943
10-08-2012, 01:36 AM
I think it's pretty obvious that you can build a championship team with a prime Iverson. If that 76ers finals team had not run into an all-time great team in the Lakers and had another scoring threat (would lighten the load for Iverson, bumping up his efficiency), that was a championship team. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional imo.

Chronz
10-08-2012, 01:43 AM
JB I'm begging you stop. Stop this **** right now. You're giving me a headache every ****ing time I read these sorts of garbage posts.

But Ben Wallace was 32 years old and Deke was 35, these are facts.

Just like its a fact that 7 footer centers with great health age no differently than 6"8 centers who relied on jumpsols.

JLynn943
10-08-2012, 01:52 AM
His team that went to the Finals was a lot better than most of you think. One reason that they were "bad" was that Iverson didn't give up the rock. If you ever played you'd know that you stop running your plays at 100% when you know you will never get the ball.

They had players that were better percentage shooters than Iverson, if he had distributed the ball say 25-35% more of the time the team would have played better.

That's the sort of thing a real leader does. Iverson was was all about himself first and always.

That was an incredibly offensively limited team. Percentages are not everything. Tip-ins, dunks, and lay-ups all can skew percentages to make it look like someone is more offensively capable than they are. Iverson had a far greater offensive arsenal than anyone on that team. He had no choice but to shoulder the burden of dominating their offense. If the ball went elsewhere more often, those players would have put up worse percentages with a trade-off of Iverson's going up (having options to pass to out of a bad situation = fewer bad attempts = higher percentage made overall).

As for your last statement, all you have to do is refer back to his play in Denver where he actually had another capable offensive player on the team. You wouldn't dare look at that objectively though I'm sure.

A championship team with Iverson just needs to be balanced in between what he had in Philly and Denver. A solid defensive team with another scoring option and the team would be better (or at the very least as good as) the Bulls of two years ago.

Kashmir13579
10-08-2012, 02:16 AM
Ben Wallace was 32 years old :laugh:

odiz
10-08-2012, 02:39 AM
On the right team it could work. For example a prime AI on todays Spurs. He would be the best player on that team and they would be really good IMO.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2012, 02:46 AM
On the right team it could work. For example a prime AI on todays Spurs. He would be the best player on that team and they would be really good IMO.

Pops would shank him in the showers dude, sorry.

P Harvy
10-08-2012, 02:47 AM
Pops would shank him in the showers dude, sorry.

Shank him with what? :eyebrow:

Steelers23_06
10-08-2012, 03:08 AM
i dont think it has to do with his team as much as his coach. i think hed need someone that has been there, and done that like phil jackson or pat riley. someone that he could respect and would push him to that level. because the crazy thing about a.i. is we never got to see him where a "system" is built for him to succeed. PHI tried but honestly they failed miserably like CLE and lebron. they also never paired a.i. with an all star veteran that could groom him. he was given too much too quick. we possibly be having this same convo with mj if phil didnt come along. he was the same thing a cocky youngin who could ball his @$$ off before phil instilled the triangle and a system that worked to mjs skillset the best along with getting players around him in prime position to score. with a.i. it was much like cle...stand around and watch your star and if he hits you when your open try to make it. you didnt see a lot of off ball screens and things of that nature.

JayW_1023
10-08-2012, 03:46 AM
No I would not.

JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 10:51 AM
That's all fine and well but without any of the other players on that team, they don't win the championship. Getting back to my main point there was no one on the team who was "the man". Not every championship team has someone who is "the man" and the 03-04 Pistons are a prime example of that.

And don't say that Billups was a nobody and use his career up until that point to justify it because Wallace wasn't anyone up until that team came together either. The year the Pistons won the championship Billups was the leading assist man, second leading scorer, a lockdown defender and the most clutch player the team had.

In addition, when Billups was playing with prime KG he was made to play off the ball or come off the bench in most cases because Terrell Brandon was still there playing PG.

I'm not saying they win without one of them missing. I am just saying Ben Wallace was the best player on the team and the only allstar on the team and the most proven guy on the squad. But as well Billups was a nobody prior to Detroit. He played with prime KG and couldn't even do anything.

JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 10:53 AM
There is a fact I want to tel you about yourself but if I do so I'll get banned so JB you're the winner mmmkay :)

See I come to discuss bball and speak what happened and how things were perceived at the time. Don't get frustrated man, sometimes it is difficult to make your point.

Raidaz4Life
10-08-2012, 10:58 AM
Probably not.... it'd be too difficult to build around him.

KnickaBocka.44
10-08-2012, 11:22 AM
I'm not saying they win without one of them missing. I am just saying Ben Wallace was the best player on the team and the only allstar on the team and the most proven guy on the squad. But as well Billups was a nobody prior to Detroit. He played with prime KG and couldn't even do anything.

You obviously didn't even read my entire post and are continuing to ignore facts. Billups was only the starting PG for 54 games of one season that he played with prime KG, Terrell Brandon was the starter the year before that so to pin blame or anything on Billups for that T'Wolves team not doing anything is absurd.

I understand that you are saying that YOU THINK Ben Wallace was the best player on the team, which is an opinion, but the fact is an argument could be made for 2-4 other guys on the team so in no way was Ben Wallace "the man" on a championship team.

EDIT Ben Wallace was no more proven than Rip Hamilton (a proven 18-20 ppg scorer), Billups or Rasheed Wallace (who had already been a 2x All-Star) by that point in time.

JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 12:00 PM
You obviously didn't even read my entire post and are continuing to ignore facts. Billups was only the starting PG for 54 games of one season that he played with prime KG, Terrell Brandon was the starter the year before that so to pin blame or anything on Billups for that T'Wolves team not doing anything is absurd.

I understand that you are saying that YOU THINK Ben Wallace was the best player on the team, which is an opinion, but the fact is an argument could be made for 2-4 other guys on the team so in no way was Ben Wallace "the man" on a championship team.

EDIT Ben Wallace was no more proven than Rip Hamilton (a proven 18-20 ppg scorer), Billups or Rasheed Wallace (who had already been a 2x All-Star) by that point in time.

Ben Wallace was clearly more proven than those guys by that point. Rasheed was the only one who made an allstar team before that point and the fact is he was in foul trouble the entire finals as well. Ben Wallace finished higher in MVP voting as well than anyone on the team and was the only allstar on the 2004 team. Unless you can show me another guy who made the allstar team on the Pistons in 2004 then my point stands.

uprightciti
10-08-2012, 12:04 PM
no

KnickaBocka.44
10-08-2012, 12:12 PM
Ben Wallace was clearly more proven than those guys by that point. Rasheed was the only one who made an allstar team before that point and the fact is he was in foul trouble the entire finals as well. Ben Wallace finished higher in MVP voting as well than anyone on the team and was the only allstar on the 2004 team. Unless you can show me another guy who made the allstar team on the Pistons in 2004 then my point stands.

Your point does not stand. In order to be considered "the man" you have to be head and shoulders above the rest of your teammates and they would have to be witness to that. Jordan was the man on the 90's Bulls, Olajuwon was the man on the 90's Rockets, David Robinson was the man on the 90's Spurs, Rose is the man on the current Bulls, Lebron was the man in Cleveland, so on and so forth. In the case of the 03-04 Pistons there was no man, they were a team.

blacknell
10-08-2012, 12:14 PM
In a heartbeat, when he was in his prime he was top 3 in the NBA easily. I believe he took his team to the finals and was beat by a super lakers squad.

b@llhog24
10-08-2012, 12:21 PM
Iverson was never top 3 in the nba.

ShockerArt
10-08-2012, 12:22 PM
Ben Wallace was clearly more proven than those guys by that point. Rasheed was the only one who made an allstar team before that point and the fact is he was in foul trouble the entire finals as well. Ben Wallace finished higher in MVP voting as well than anyone on the team and was the only allstar on the 2004 team. Unless you can show me another guy who made the allstar team on the Pistons in 2004 then my point stands.

Ben Wallace was 2nd on the '04 team in Win Shares and 4th in WS/48 during the regular season. He was 2nd in both, behind Chauncey and just barely ahead of Rip, in the playoffs.

And Wallace was 33 years old and a shell of his former self when he joined Cleveland. He lost his athleticism, which is all he had to begin with.

Now go away.

Stinkyoutsider
10-08-2012, 12:27 PM
I would take him as my franchise player to build around. Yes, he had his problems on the defensive side of the ball, but his talent to score would have made up for it. Killer crossover, good midrange shot, and finishing strong at the basket. And, underrated ball handler.

I think the thing with Iverson was his mental state. He always wanted to be the dominant scorer. For the first part of his career, I totally agreed with that thought process. Who to pass the ball to? Aaron Mckie or Eric Snow? Any one of those guys able to create their own shot?

I would need a leader on the team so Iverson wouldn't be. The whole practice thing would be unacceptable. And, I think I would try to build the team with a center who could guard the rim (like Dikembe Mutombo) and match him with a power forward who could also guard the rum, 7 foot, versatile, and could score some.

The problem with Philly and putting players around Iverson is they did the best they could with the players available but couldn't get the job done. In Denver, I always thought 2 scorers with the mindsets like Iverson and Anthony, there was going to be problems with who got the most shots.

KnickaBocka.44
10-08-2012, 12:32 PM
Ben Wallace was clearly more proven than those guys by that point. Rasheed was the only one who made an allstar team before that point and the fact is he was in foul trouble the entire finals as well. Ben Wallace finished higher in MVP voting as well than anyone on the team and was the only allstar on the 2004 team. Unless you can show me another guy who made the allstar team on the Pistons in 2004 then my point stands.

Your point is also flawed in the sense that you are referencing an all-star game selection which is dictated by fan voting. But for the sake of debate I will also point out that you are talking about a historical low point for both the Center position and the Eastern Conference in terms of inferiority to perimeter players and the Western Conference. Of course Billups and Hamilton weren't making the All-Star team with guys like Vince, T-Mac, Iverson, Paul Pierce, Michael Redd, Jason Kidd, etc.

You know who the other Center on the All-Star team was in 2004? Jamaal Magoire. JAMAAL MAGLOIRE! Point proven.

MetroMan
10-08-2012, 12:41 PM
Inverson was crazy good. Very fun watching him drop 50 many times.

He always had a bad team. Even in Denver he has those careless bastards

MetroMan
10-08-2012, 12:45 PM
Iverson was never top 3 in the nba.

Not true. The guy had 5 thirty point seasons. Not his fault his teams suck and he still managed year in and year out to make the team relevant

MetroMan
10-08-2012, 12:48 PM
Lmfaooo at people who say he was never even top 3..... His the Frkn 2001 MVP

blastmasta26
10-08-2012, 12:58 PM
Lmfaooo at people who say he was never even top 3..... His the Frkn 2001 MVP
Rose won MVP before. I don't think he's ever been considered top 3.

MetroMan
10-08-2012, 01:02 PM
Rose won MVP before. I don't think he's ever been considered top 3.

Irrelevant and way different. Rose cant hold A.I's jockstrap

KingPosey
10-08-2012, 01:12 PM
GOD NO I wouldnt.

KingPosey
10-08-2012, 01:14 PM
Not true. The guy had 5 thirty point seasons. Not his fault his teams suck and he still managed year in and year out to make the team relevant

The guy had 30 point seasons but every peripheral around that wasnt good.

AI is one of the most overrated players on this site because he was fun to watch. He scored but never shot well and hurt his teamS in the process, he had a bunch of steals but always sold out to the passing lanes, etc.

bagwell368
10-08-2012, 01:24 PM
Lmfaooo at people who say he was never even top 3..... His the Frkn 2001 MVP

Scoring is not equal to the entire game of basketball.

While he was a great scorer, his shooting percentages were meh to poor.

While he got steals, he didn't give full effort in more games than he did on defense. He was also easy to post up.

He was a decent passer when he passed which wasn't often enough.

He didn't get many rebounds.

So, outside of being a volume shooter how was he great?

In no season do I have him in the top 8. It looks like was 9-11 3 times - which is certainly not bad given the many holes in his game. But he wasn't nearly as great as so many here believe.

blastmasta26
10-08-2012, 01:33 PM
Irrelevant and way different. Rose cant hold A.I's jockstrap
It's not irrelevant when you bring up the MVP as proof for AI being a top 3 player. I'm saying that it's insufficient evidence.

bagwell368
10-08-2012, 01:36 PM
That was an incredibly offensively limited team. Percentages are not everything. Tip-ins, dunks, and lay-ups all can skew percentages to make it look like someone is more offensively capable than they are.

I'm well aware of that. I am also aware of the fact that if Iverson passed more and the results were generally high quality shots for the guys taking them they would have scored more. It also would have lifted more of the D from Iverson which means between less effort used up and somewhat less D, his FG% was liable to have gone up too.


Iverson had a far greater offensive arsenal than anyone on that team. He had no choice but to shoulder the burden of dominating their offense.

That's what Iverson suck ups always say. And I say a more diversified offense would have produced higher scoring and less lost offensive rebounds due to higher FG%.


If the ball went elsewhere more often, those players would have put up worse percentages with a trade-off of Iverson's going up (having options to pass to out of a bad situation = fewer bad attempts = higher percentage made overall).

That's only true if you assume the players he played with were:

1. morons
2. always took the first shot that showed
3. were not capable of picking out and getting a pass to a teammate with a better chance at a higher % shot.

If you study the players on his team +/- 2 years to when they were on that team you'll find out that that some of them were far from morons and some of them were fine passers.


As for your last statement, all you have to do is refer back to his play in Denver where he actually had another capable offensive player on the team. You wouldn't dare look at that objectively though I'm sure.

I've looked at it, it still broke down because they had another shot first think later ball hog to deal with. What good are stats when the team plays beneath its talent level? Iverson was there for parts of 3 years and only did anything notable in the 2nd year. In that good year, his steam got flushed out of the playoffs in 4 straight. Overall they lost 8 out of 9 playoff games in his tenure - yup I can see why he's an all time great. :facepalm:


A championship team with Iverson just needs to be balanced in between what he had in Philly and Denver. A solid defensive team with another scoring option and the team would be better (or at the very least as good as) the Bulls of two years ago.

That's your opinion. I'm sure if he had KG and Duncan in the front court, and Pippen playing SF, than I'm sure he would have been great - so would piles of other players - without the baggage.

BTW, last year Rose played at a higher level than Iverson ever played at in his entire career in one season, and it's not even close.

superkegger
10-08-2012, 01:43 PM
If I didn't want to win a title, sure.

jericho
10-08-2012, 01:44 PM
The guy had 30 point seasons but every peripheral around that wasnt good.

AI is one of the most overrated players on this site because he was fun to watch. He scored but never shot well and hurt his teamS in the process, he had a bunch of steals but always sold out to the passing lanes, etc.

if anything i think he is being really underrated over here cuz if you have been here in this thread all ive seen is people bashing AI not praising him or giving you highlights of his career they are talking bout stats and facts(supposedly) nobody has talked bout him being fun to watch

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-08-2012, 02:00 PM
44 years old. I've seen the NBA back to the days of Wilt, Russell, West, etc.

Iverson is one of most divisive and negative influences I've ever seen. He was a ball hog with a meh shooting percentage. He was easy to post up by any decent sized #2. He gambled too much on D. He quit on how many different teams? 3 is was it? Yes, he was garbage.

How old are you young man?

Show me when Iverson ever got posted up? Ball hog? A career average of 6 assists a game is a ball hog? Come on, bro. You don't like him, I get that, but give respect where it's due. Everything Allen Iverson did/was is everything a coach and a fan would ask of his player. What 3 different teams? Memphis he was promised a starting spot, and was lied too. Detroit, had a garbage coach who had no idea how to use him, and when he was playing was actually quite effective. (that Detroit coach is no longer in the league FYI) And Philadelphia.... he quit cuz his daughter was sick and nearly dying. GTFOH here with your stupid *** comments. To say he was garbage is just **** flowing out your mouth.

JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 02:07 PM
Ben Wallace was 2nd on the '04 team in Win Shares and 4th in WS/48 during the regular season. He was 2nd in both, behind Chauncey and just barely ahead of Rip, in the playoffs.

And Wallace was 33 years old and a shell of his former self when he joined Cleveland. He lost his athleticism, which is all he had to begin with.

Now go away.

And he was the only allstar on the team and Dikembe was 35 on the Sixers while Wallace was 33 on the Cavs.

MickeyMgl
10-08-2012, 02:58 PM
Lmfaooo at people who say he was never even top 3..... His the Frkn 2001 MVP

That's what was so ridiculous about that MVP award.

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 03:35 PM
And he was the only allstar on the team and Dikembe was 35 on the Sixers while Wallace was 33 on the Cavs.

JB for the love of God STFU with these recycled arguments.

WTF does age have to do with anything. At the age of 33 Ben Wallace was MUCH less of a player than Dikembe was at age 35. Dike came into the league at 25 and played until the age of 42 while having a 10 year span of elite defense and rebounding. How many players do you know do you know that has aged as gracefully as Dike? He was 7-2 260 lbs and a major reason for him being as good as he was was his height.

Ben Wallace was Barely 6'8 and relied a lot on his strength and athleticism to be the force he was. Wallace was a SHELL of his former self by the time he arrived in Chicago and even worst when he got to Cleveland he couldn't even play 30 minutes a game and gave you nothing but offensive rebounding and the occasional put back on offense. Why in heaven's name are you comparing him to Mutombo?

Instead of comparing age why the **** don't you compare their production at said age? Your arguments are some of the worst I have ever seen in the history of these forums and are really making me lose any sense of respect I have for your posts. I swear if you reply to me with another garbage copy and paste post I'll be putting you on my ignore list because your posts are getting more and more frustrating to read.

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 03:41 PM
The guy had 30 point seasons but every peripheral around that wasnt good.

AI is one of the most overrated players on this site because he was fun to watch. He scored but never shot well and hurt his teamS in the process, he had a bunch of steals but always sold out to the passing lanes, etc.

Wait aren't you the same guy that thinks Mitch Richmond is a top 10 player all time? Yeah you sure know what you're talking about.

JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 05:35 PM
JB for the love of God STFU with these recycled arguments.

WTF does age have to do with anything. At the age of 33 Ben Wallace was MUCH less of a player than Dikembe was at age 35. Dike came into the league at 25 and played until the age of 42 while having a 10 year span of elite defense and rebounding. How many players do you know do you know that has aged as gracefully as Dike? He was 7-2 260 lbs and a major reason for him being as good as he was was his height.

Ben Wallace was Barely 6'8 and relied a lot on his strength and athleticism to be the force he was. Wallace was a SHELL of his former self by the time he arrived in Chicago and even worst when he got to Cleveland he couldn't even play 30 minutes a game and gave you nothing but offensive rebounding and the occasional put back on offense. Why in heaven's name are you comparing him to Mutombo?

Instead of comparing age why the **** don't you compare their production at said age? Your arguments are some of the worst I have ever seen in the history of these forums and are really making me lose any sense of respect I have for your posts. I swear if you reply to me with another garbage copy and paste post I'll be putting you on my ignore list because your posts are getting more and more frustrating to read.

I never said Ben Wallace was better than Dikembe. I used the same logic that they both were 4x DPOY players and that Ben Wallace was a proven champion already. Also Ben was the main reason the Bulls got by Miami in 2007.

KingPosey
10-08-2012, 06:13 PM
Wait aren't you the same guy that thinks Mitch Richmond is a top 10 player all time? Yeah you sure know what you're talking about.

Yeah, because jokes dont happen in this world anymore. Good use of nothing to prove nothing.

Back your volume scorer though, and back that angle HARD, its the only one you got. Unless you want to talk about him carrying the 76ers to the finals in an Eastern Conference that was maybe the weakest a conference has ever been all time during that span.

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 06:46 PM
Yeah, because jokes dont happen in this world anymore. Good use of nothing to prove nothing.

Back your volume scorer though, and back that angle HARD, its the only one you got. Unless you want to talk about him carrying the 76ers to the finals in an Eastern Conference that was maybe the weakest a conference has ever been all time during that span.

Sorry but I back A.I. for posters who are worth it.

Someone who thinks A.I. was nothing but a volume scorer really doesn't deserve to be engaged in a debate with. Why should I waste my time on you? Every single time someone says anything about Mitch Richmond you bring up the same point that MJ said he was the toughest matchup he's ever had well actually you lie and say MJ said Richmond was the best but those of us who actually know our stuff don't fall for that **** and think that that proves anything.

Really you're calling ME out on having one angle? You wanna call me out on using nothing to prove something? Child please.

bagwell368
10-08-2012, 06:48 PM
Show me when Iverson ever got posted up? Ball hog? A career average of 6 assists a game is a ball hog?

When he got stuck covering a tall #2 he got posted more than a few times.

Yes, ball hog, given how much he held that ball, 6 assists is more like 2.5 in the hands of an average NBA starter.


but give respect where it's due.

I said he was a great scorer, that has value. But after that, it dries up quickly.


Everything Allen Iverson did/was is everything a coach and a fan would ask of his player.

I played in college and I've coach 5th-9th grade kids for 15 years, AI wasn't ever a model for me. Any kid that went out and tried to play like that (their version obviously since AI is a bit more talented then the average 14 year old) would be sitting on my bench - a lot.


And Philadelphia.... he quit cuz his daughter was sick and nearly dying.

Which is why I didn't bring it up - read it again. Yet another fan that can't take his hero getting exposed for the 1 dimensional player he was...

Swashcuff
10-08-2012, 06:58 PM
I never said Ben Wallace was better than Dikembe. I used the same logic that they both were 4x DPOY players and that Ben Wallace was a proven champion already. Also Ben was the main reason the Bulls got by Miami in 2007.

At any point in my post did I say that you said Wallace was better than Mutombo?

Stop dodging as well.

mrblisterdundee
10-08-2012, 07:18 PM
I would. If you look at what Iverson did with the '76ers in 2000-01, it was very impressive. He was the only player of his level on that entire team. Imagine if the '76ers had added another star in his prime to go with Iverson.
I think Iverson's best role would be as a combo guard playing at the point guard position. He'd be a defensive liability, but less so than if you played him at shooting guard. Iverson can get a lot of assists, but you'd also need a shooting guard who could distribute the ball well. I think James Harden would be a good back court pairing with Iverson.

Alayla
10-08-2012, 07:28 PM
Only with a gun to the head of each member of my family.

He's garbage, and you cannot win the NBA with him as your best player.

Wow you are the most incredible hater on the planet i get it your not a fan of the sixers your a Celtics guy but you don't see sixers fans. talking crap about Paul Perice and if you do its rarely ever to that extent. have a little bit of respect for an NBA great. and yes you can build a championship calaber team around him 2001 is proof of that team was hurt lol winning a game on that lakers team isnt something that should be shoved under the rug on a weaker year they really could have won it all and that was with a 34 year old mutombo as his best teammate give him KG and they tear up the league you really have to be unbiased.
A team that would undoubtably win with iverson as a frist scoreing option
(limiting myself to only players from 2001 to 2004 or else it would be to easy also no more than 3 stars and no stars on the bench)
Jason Kidd Tyrone Lue
Allen iverson Raja Bell
Jamal mashburn shane battier (early carrer)
Chris Webber robert horry
Theo Ratlif scott polard

Tell me honestly that they wouldn't win
at least 1 ring from 2001 to 2004

Alayla
10-08-2012, 07:37 PM
When he got stuck covering a tall #2 he got posted more than a few times.

Yes, ball hog, given how much he held that ball, 6 assists is more like 2.5 in the hands of an average NBA starter.



I said he was a great scorer, that has value. But after that, it dries up quickly.



I played in college and I've coach 5th-9th grade kids for 15 years, AI wasn't ever a model for me. Any kid that went out and tried to play like that (their version obviously since AI is a bit more talented then the average 14 year old) would be sitting on my bench - a lot.



Which is why I didn't bring it up - read it again. Yet another fan that can't take his hero getting exposed for the 1 dimensional player he was...

He was a 2 guard 2 guards ball hog sit here and tell me Jordan and kobe dont ball hog..... thought so also6 assits is alot for a 2 and even more so for a 2 with NO help this is the part you seem to ignore with AI the team around him was just awfull only once in his carrer did he ever have a true number 2 scoring option and that was with Melo but by then he was well beyond his prime also take a look at some of those denver games he clearly looked to pass alot mabye too much sometimes i dont think it was ever that iverson i was selfish in philly i think it was more that he knew he HAD to score he has no one else capable of doing it.

as for the bolded thats harsh cold and baised but at least i understand it AI never played the (right way) thats for sure and im shocked to be honest that you admit that iverson is more talented than a 14 year old becuase the way you speak its allmost as if you think he isnt. anyways i hope you at least told the poor kids why you sat them

bagwell368
10-08-2012, 08:04 PM
Wow you are the most incredible hater on the planet i get it your not a fan of the sixers your a Celtics guy but you don't see sixers fans.

I don't care who he played for, he was overrated trash. One of my all time favorite teams is the '82 76'ers. That '67 Wilt team was also insane. My idea of players to have on a team include guys like Cheeks and Bobby Jones. There is one rock and 5 guys on the floor. Hyper shooters like AI ruin the flow of the game. Jordan was able to play in a similar fashion, but he was far greater then AI.


talking crap about Paul Perice and if you do its rarely ever to that extent.

Say what you like. Pierce is overrated by Celt fans - typical of other fan bases.


have a little bit of respect for an NBA great.

I don't like Gervin, Wilkins, or Bellamy either. I'll start with analysis, and I get hated on by fans with no clue and they get back what they started. In AI's case I'm firmly convinced he's one of the 5 most malific players in NBA history. I've backed it up. I won't change - in particular for baiters and haters.


and yes you can build a championship calaber team around him 2001 is proof of that team was hurt lol winning a game on that lakers team isnt something that should be shoved under the rug on a weaker year they really could have won it all and that was with a 34 year old mutombo as his best teammate give him KG and they tear up the league you really have to be unbiased.

Could you rewrite this? I can't figure out what you are trying to get at.


A team that would undoubtably win with iverson as a frist scoreing option
(limiting myself to only players from 2001 to 2004 or else it would be to easy also no more than 3 stars and no stars on the bench)
Jason Kidd Tyrone Lue
Allen iverson Raja Bell
Jamal mashburn shane battier (early carrer)
Chris Webber robert horry
Theo Ratlif scott polard

Tell me honestly that they wouldn't win
at least 1 ring from 2001 to 2004

Webber, Ratliff, and Kidd were nasty. That's 4 all stars, and while Mashburn was going downhill - he's pretty nasty for a 5th best player.

Give me Robinson, Camby, Ray Allen, Mashburn, and Andre Miller - and your team is done.

JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 10:12 PM
At any point in my post did I say that you said Wallace was better than Mutombo?

Stop dodging as well.

So what are you complaining about?

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 12:40 PM
When he got stuck covering a tall #2 he got posted more than a few times.

Yes, ball hog, given how much he held that ball, 6 assists is more like 2.5 in the hands of an average NBA starter.



I said he was a great scorer, that has value. But after that, it dries up quickly.



I played in college and I've coach 5th-9th grade kids for 15 years, AI wasn't ever a model for me. Any kid that went out and tried to play like that (their version obviously since AI is a bit more talented then the average 14 year old) would be sitting on my bench - a lot.



Which is why I didn't bring it up - read it again. Yet another fan that can't take his hero getting exposed for the 1 dimensional player he was...

AI played against someone bigger every single night of his career... Wasn't exposed in the post. Sorry, try again. Then you should know, since you played college. Coach's ask that you play your heart out, correct? That you give everything you got, correct? Toughness. That you dive for a loose ball? When was the last time your favorite player dove for a loose ball. I'm not talkin about Iverson's style of play... I'm talkin about what he braught, undersized every single night, but was the best player on the floor. Kept being agressive, no matter how many times, he was knocked to the floor. Allen played hurt, played sick, gave 100% ALWAYS.If you don't ask that of your players, then, I wish your coaching career the best of luck. And you'll notice somethings wrong when your players will sit a week for a week with a headache.

If all your respect is Allen Iverson's scoring, then that alone, shows me, you didn't watch much of his career. So, think what you will, and thats fine. But just know, that your a little uninformed. And I can tell by, your arguments, your not willing to listen or change your argument. Therefor everything I'm tellin you is pointless.

Your opinion, of Iverson is obviously that he's ball hog, hence why you said, you'd bench that player? Goodluck with that. Iverson won 2 State championships, and was 5 seconds away from a National title, and 3 games away from an NBA title. I showed you his #'s and you made excuses for that too. Lol, even tho Eric Snow was the player who usually ran the team. And when Iverson was moved to PG, his assist numbers rose as well. But you made some weird excuse for that too. Lol.

ink
10-09-2012, 12:43 PM
AI played against someone bigger every single night of his career... Wasn't exposed in the post. Sorry, try again. Then you should know, since you played college. Coach's ask that you play your heart out, correct? That you give everything you got, correct? Toughness. That you dive for a loose ball? When was the last time your favorite player dove for a loose ball. I'm not talkin about Iverson's style of play... I'm talkin about what he braught, undersized every single night, but was the best player on the floor. Kept being agressive, no matter how many times, he was knocked to the floor. Allen played hurt, played sick, gave 100% ALWAYS.If you don't ask that of your players, then, I wish your coaching career the best of luck. And you'll notice somethings wrong when your players will sit a week for a week with a headache.

If all your respect is Allen Iverson's scoring, then that alone, shows me, you didn't watch mutch of his career. So, think what you will, and thats fine. But just know, that your a little uninformed. And I can tell by, your arguments, your not willing to listen or change your argument. Therefor everything I'm tellin you is pointless.

So are you suggesting that building around an undersized player who gives effort is the way to go? Because that has proven not to be enough.

koreancabbage
10-09-2012, 12:44 PM
no, as it already has been proven.

Unless he was the second fiddle of his team before and then people asked this question, then yes.

but we already know how he is as the man.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 12:56 PM
So are you suggesting that building around an undersized player who gives effort is the way to go? Because that has proven not to be enough.

Yeah. Obviously you need a little more talent, smart***. Allen Iverson, Dikembe Mutombo, Matt Geiger, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, Aaron McKie, and Eric Snow... PRoblllleyyyy not gonna get it done. And plz don't counter with the, "he had help. He had, Andre Iguodala, Glen Robinson, and Keith Van Horn @ one point." argument. But you replace Kobe for Iverson on some of those Laker's squads, they'd win it. You can't win it alone, your right. And that's why Iverson never did. So why hate on the dude, when he was alone, his entire career.

ManningToTyree
10-09-2012, 01:07 PM
With the right coach and supporting cast, yes. This question needs to be more detailed. What are the alternatives?

ink
10-09-2012, 01:10 PM
Yeah. Obviously you need a little more talent, smart***. Allen Iverson, Dikembe Mutombo, Matt Geiger, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, Aaron McKie, and Eric Snow... PRoblllleyyyy not gonna get it done. And plz don't counter with the, "he had help. He had, Andre Iguodala, Glen Robinson, and Keith Van Horn @ one point." argument. But you replace Kobe for Iverson on some of those Laker's squads, they'd win it. You can't win it alone, your right. And that's why Iverson never did. So why hate on the dude, when he was alone, his entire career.

The help argument is so worn out.

The OP asks whether I would build around AI. The answer is an easy no. I'm not interested in highlights and excuses, I'm interested in basketball.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 01:22 PM
The help argument is so worn out.

The OP asks whether I would build around AI. The answer is an easy no. I'm not interested in highlights and excuses, I'm interested in basketball.

Good for you. That's what Allen Iverson was, was a basketball player. He never made excuses. I'm just letting you know... That the same reason AI couldn't do it, was the reason Kobe, LeBron, Jordan, Shaq, Dirk, etc couldn't do it alone. They, fortunatly, got help to get em over the hump, Iverson didn't. It may be an excuse, but it's legit. And you know it. Because it was possible to build a championship team around AI.

ink
10-09-2012, 01:27 PM
Good for you. That's what Allen Iverson was, was a basketball player. He never made excuses.

Didn't need to because his fans make the excuses for him.

dh144498
10-09-2012, 01:54 PM
Didn't need to because his fans make the excuses for him.

:laugh:

A.I. is pretty overrated, to be honest.

inb4 sh*tstorm.

bagwell368
10-09-2012, 01:58 PM
AI played against someone bigger every single night of his career... Wasn't exposed in the post. Sorry, try again.

I'm not talking 6' 2" guys, the 6' 4" to 6' 7" crew.


Then you should know, since you played college. Coach's ask that you play your heart out, correct? That you give everything you got, correct? Toughness. That you dive for a loose ball? When was the last time your favorite player dove for a loose ball. I'm not talkin about Iverson's style of play... I'm talkin about what he braught, undersized every single night, but was the best player on the floor. Kept being agressive, no matter how many times, he was knocked to the floor. Allen played hurt, played sick, gave 100% ALWAYS.If you don't ask that of your players, then, I wish your coaching career the best of luck. And you'll notice somethings wrong when your players will sit a week for a week with a headache.

This is a problem AI fans have, they give him credit for him being short. I don't care what height he is - I'm talking output here, not giving awards for the little tough guy.

By definition he did not always give 100%. He walked off of too many teams. He pouted too much. No try again.

I have no idea of what you're talking about with this headache crap.

My job was a lot easier than a pro coach. Kids are much more coachable then millionaires for one thing. I only help out with big man camp and some subbing for my coach buddies as there is no way I can handle coaching every night anymore.


If all your respect is Allen Iverson's scoring, then that alone, shows me, you didn't watch much of his career. So, think what you will, and thats fine. But just know, that your a little uninformed. And I can tell by, your arguments, your not willing to listen or change your argument. Therefor everything I'm tellin you is pointless.

Scoring is clearly his superior output compared to everything else. You don't intend to put him up as a great rebounder right? Or a guy that looked to pass a lot? Or a guy that played killer D the last 1/2 of his career? How about his 3 point percentages? Nope not elite. Pretty good by the local YMCA standards of course...


Your opinion, of Iverson is obviously that he's ball hog, hence why you said, you'd bench that player?

Read what I wrote again. I was talking about kids that I coach. Believe me I had a few show up with major league attitude. ;90 seconds of squat jumps intermixed with defensive drills often took the smile off of their faces. Taking the ball all the way in on a 3 on 1 with the defender focused on them bought them a free seat next to me for a good 5 minutes. Etc.


Goodluck with that. Iverson won 2 State championships, and was 5 seconds away from a National title, and 3 games away from an NBA title. I showed you his #'s and you made excuses for that too. Lol, even tho Eric Snow was the player who usually ran the team. And when Iverson was moved to PG, his assist numbers rose as well. But you made some weird excuse for that too. Lol.

There is nothing weird about looking at the % of time a player has the ball and the assist count and FG count. Your PG's from a pass happy one like Rondo to more of a shooter like Paul gives a range, Iverson didn't fit it. That's not an excuse that's a factual claim.

Byronicle
10-09-2012, 02:10 PM
Having Iverson paired up with a playmaking SG like Harden would be awesome

defensive SF

offensive PF and a defensive C and you got yourself a good starting 5

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 02:12 PM
I'm not talking 6' 2" guys, the 6' 4" to 6' 7" crew.



This is a problem AI fans have, they give him credit for him being short. I don't care what height he is - I'm talking output here, not giving awards for the little tough guy.

By definition he did not always give 100%. He walked off of too many teams. He pouted too much. No try again.

I have no idea of what you're talking about with this headache crap.

My job was a lot easier than a pro coach. Kids are much more coachable then millionaires for one thing. I only help out with big man camp and some subbing for my coach buddies as there is no way I can handle coaching every night anymore.



Scoring is clearly his superior output compared to everything else. You don't intend to put him up as a great rebounder right? Or a guy that looked to pass a lot? Or a guy that played killer D the last 1/2 of his career? How about his 3 point percentages? Nope not elite. Pretty good by the local YMCA standards of course...



Read what I wrote again. I was talking about kids that I coach. Believe me I had a few show up with major league attitude. ;90 seconds of squat jumps intermixed with defensive drills often took the smile off of their faces. Taking the ball all the way in on a 3 on 1 with the defender focused on them bought them a free seat next to me for a good 5 minutes. Etc.



There is nothing weird about looking at the % of time a player has the ball and the assist count and FG count. Your PG's from a pass happy one like Rondo to more of a shooter like Paul gives a range, Iverson didn't fit it. That's not an excuse that's a factual claim.

Don't know what else to tell you, bro. I've pleaded my case. So... Like I said, If you only respect Iverson, for his scoring, thats fine, but just know your a little misinformed. You never said I was incorrect when I said you didn't watch much of his career. That's all I needed to know.

naps
10-09-2012, 02:24 PM
YES. With the right players he can win as the best player. After reading some responses here I have come to the conclusion that many people here didn't see Iverson in his prime.

KnickaBocka.44
10-09-2012, 02:32 PM
Don't know what else to tell you, bro. I've pleaded my case. So... Like I said, If you only respect Iverson, for his scoring, thats fine, but just know your a little misinformed. You never said I was incorrect when I said you didn't watch much of his career. That's all I needed to know.

What do you respect Iverson for, if not for his scoring? He didn't excel in any other parts of the game of the course of his career. If he weren't such a prolific scorer (on poor efficiency) we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 02:46 PM
What do you respect Iverson for, if not for his scoring? He didn't excel in any other parts of the game of the course of his career. If he weren't such a prolific scorer (on poor efficiency) we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

He actually became much more efficient, the more his career progressed. He was actually a really good play maker look @ his assist #'s with not alotta talent around him. Was still able to post high assist numbers. But to answer your question... I loved how he played. He left it all out on the floor, tried his hardest, wich is rare now adays. How many superstars do you see diving for loose balls now? Kobe? LeBron are problley the only two. I've seen Carmelo dive for two loose balls in his entire career. His overall toughness amd approach to the game. Everybody wanted him to fail so badly. I related to him as a person and as a basketball player. Coming from nothing and being able to do what he was able to do in the League is amazing. I honestly respect Iverson's heart more then his scoring. Averaging 4 rebounds for a career... @ his size when he's nowhere near the average height of the NBA player, is crazy. I guarentee some of you guys are Iverson's size, and don't even grab 4 rebounds in a pick up game. And to put up points like he did @ his size. Iverson wasn't a big liability on Defense. Team's had a tougher time defending him, then he had being a defender.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 02:51 PM
Someone show me highlights where Iverson was just completly outclassed for an entire game, while he was playing defense. Since he was such a liability.

Swashcuff
10-09-2012, 02:51 PM
What do you respect Iverson for, if not for his scoring? He didn't excel in any other parts of the game of the course of his career. If he weren't such a prolific scorer (on poor efficiency) we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

So he wasn't a good passer? He wasn't great at stealing the ball? If Kobe wasn't a prolific scorer we wouldn't have such a conversation, same for Wade, Gervin, etc.

I honestly don't get the A.I. hate. Its like you guys focus sooooo much on the bad that you never even cared to pay attention to the good that he did. In your guys eyes all Iverson did was chuck and nothing else and wasn't a good player. To me all that says is that 1. I don't like him as a person (see Bagwell and Ink for this)/player or 2. I didn't look at Allen Iverson play and I just regurgitate the garbage others are spreading.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 02:56 PM
So he wasn't a good passer? He wasn't great at stealing the ball? If Kobe wasn't a prolific scorer we wouldn't have such a conversation, same for Wade, Gervin, etc.

I honestly don't get the A.I. hate. Its like you guys focus sooooo much on the bad that you never even cared to pay attention to the good that he did. In your guys eyes all Iverson did was chuck and nothing else and wasn't a good player. To me all that says is that 1. I don't like him as a person (see Bagwell and Ink for this)/player or 2. I didn't look at Allen Iverson play and I just regurgitate the garbage others are spreading.

Thank you. It's sad, man. I don't get it honestly. When people tell him he wasn't a good defender blows my mind, He wasn't Gary Payton by any means, but he could hold his own. And sayin he's a ball hog, WTF. I show them #'s but still choose to make an excuse for that. "Since he had the ball for x amount of mins per game, averaging 7 assists, is the equivelent to barley 2 assists a game." lol I don't get it Swash.

ink
10-09-2012, 02:57 PM
So he wasn't a good passer? He wasn't great at stealing the ball? If Kobe wasn't a prolific scorer we wouldn't have such a conversation, same for Wade, Gervin, etc.

I honestly don't get the A.I. hate. Its like you guys focus sooooo much on the bad that you never even cared to pay attention to the good that he did. In your guys eyes all Iverson did was chuck and nothing else and wasn't a good player. To me all that says is that 1. I don't like him as a person (see Bagwell and Ink for this)/player or 2. I didn't look at Allen Iverson play and I just regurgitate the garbage others are spreading.

I have no problem with his personality. Kobe is a much more irritating type and I can still acknowledge his abilities (not to mention his success). My issue is that his game couldn't be harnessed in a team sport. Silly to attempt to make it personal. It's about being one of a weak generation of pretenders.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 02:59 PM
I have no problem with his personality. Kobe is a much more irritating type and I can still acknowledge his abilities (not to mention his success). My issue is that his game couldn't be harnessed in a team sport. Silly to attempt to make it personal. It's about being one of a weak generation of pretenders.

How do you figure?!?! He made it to the NBA Finals, playing really, really good teams in the proccess (Indiana who repped the East the year before, Milwaukee and they're Big 3, and Vince Carter's Raptors.) You don't make it to the NBA Finals not playing a team game. Just imagine if he had a little more help in those 3 games, in the NBA Finals. A low post threat maybe...

Swashcuff
10-09-2012, 03:01 PM
Someone show me highlights where Iverson was just completly outclassed for an entire game, while he was playing defense. Since he was such a liability.

The man PLAYED DEFENSE. Yeah he wasn't great on that end of the floor especially one on one but he played D. People seem to think that A.I. got all his steals by playing the lanes and slacking off on his man that was not the case. He gambled for the on ball steal a lot and that costed his teams on occasions I can swallow that but people acting like he didn't play defense are idiotic.

The man read passes better than damn near any player we've seen on D in the last 20 years he wasn't just sagging off his man he was playing D waiting for any sort of opening in which to swipe the basketball.

I am not saying Allen Iverson was a good defender hell I'm not even saying he was an average defender because IMO he was not especially later in his career but in terms of team D and stealing the basketball he was one of the best ever at his time.

JonnyBrav000
10-09-2012, 03:01 PM
Only with a gun to the head of each member of my family.

He's garbage, and you cannot win the NBA with him as your best player.



You obviously know nothing about the NBA pre 2007. Look at his career numbers, 27 PPG, more than 6 assist per game, more than 2 steals per game, former MVP, rookie of the year and took a scrub 76er team to the NBA finals. Shaq and Barkley rank him among the top players ever and they both say he's the best small guy to ever play and I am sure if you ask others no one will argue with that. Yes Iverson can be on a winner, he took the Sixers to the playoffs almost every year and made a few deep runs too, and to be a champion he just needs the right supporting cast to surround his game. He got close and with more attention to detail with the right formula or another superstar preferably a big, he could have gotten there.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 03:04 PM
The man PLAYED DEFENSE. Yeah he wasn't great on that end of the floor especially one on one but he played D. People seem to think that A.I. got all his steals by playing the lanes and slacking off on his man that was not the case. He gambled for the on ball steal a lot and that costed his teams on occasions I can swallow that but people acting like he didn't play defense are idiotic.

The man read passes better than damn near any player we've seen on D in the last 20 years he wasn't just sagging off his man he was playing D waiting for any sort of opening in which to swipe the basketball.

I am not saying Allen Iverson was a good defender hell I'm not even saying he was an average defender because IMO he was not especially later in his career but in terms of team D and stealing the basketball he was one of the best ever at his time.

People already have they're minds made up about him tho. We have the media to thank. It's pretty clear alotta people (sheeple) on this website weren't able to watch AI's Sixers, they'll bash AI since all he does is score, but turn around and praise KD lol. It's just funny to me.

ink
10-09-2012, 03:06 PM
People already have they're minds made up about him tho.

Well his career is over right? How long after retirement are people supposed to wait? And many of us watched him in his prime. Weak era. btw, the NBA promoted the hell out of him in his prime in their attempt to market the game through "stars" so he didn't suffer for lack of media exposure.

Swashcuff
10-09-2012, 03:09 PM
I have no problem with his personality. Kobe is a much more irritating type and I can still acknowledge his abilities (not to mention his success). My issue is that his game couldn't be harnessed in a team sport. Silly to attempt to make it personal. It's about being one of a weak generation of pretenders.

My apologies I was wrong to assume that you had a problem with his personality and even myself as an A.I. fanboy can understand your POV on the team sport thing. I too was mad at him for not being more willing to come off the bench and let his ego get the better of him. I think however in the capacity of being a leader he was willing to defer to another star type player (we saw this with Melo, Webber and TD in 04 when he was praised by many critics, coaches and teammates for his willingness to play in a team set up) and even role players (we saw this with McKie when he started alongside A.I. in his MVP season, Korver, Iggy and even Kenny Thomas).

If I weren't a fanboy myself I think what I would question is how well he would work with other players in terms of winning titles rather than saying it will never work. I think that there is enough evidence to tell us that a prime A.I. will be able to play with other quality players around him.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 03:09 PM
Well his career is over right? And many of us watched him in his prime and weren't convinced when he was at his height. Weak era.

Lol. I can tell you all watched him @ the height of his career by some of the ignorant posts. So based off your logic, correct me if I'm wrong... does that taint all Championships from 1995-2005? Since it was a weak era?

Swashcuff
10-09-2012, 03:11 PM
Well his career is over right? How long after retirement are people supposed to wait? And many of us watched him in his prime. Weak era. btw, the NBA promoted the hell out of him in his prime in their attempt to market the game through "stars" so he didn't suffer for lack of media exposure.

So the era in which he played was poor. Cool. In your opinion do we use this for every player who played in that era? Does Shaq lose a couple spot in the all time ranks because of the era in which he dominated? What about TD? How about KG I mean after all he missed more than a few post seasons in his prime.

Also I really don't know about the NBA promoting the hell out of him. His street image is something the NBA wanted to distance themselves from rather than use as their poster boy.

JLynn943
10-09-2012, 03:13 PM
You obviously know nothing about the NBA pre 2007. Look at his career numbers, 27 PPG, more than 6 assist per game, more than 2 steals per game, former MVP, rookie of the year and took a scrub 76er team to the NBA finals. Shaq and Barkley rank him among the top players ever and they both say he's the best small guy to ever play and I am sure if you ask others no one will argue with that. Yes Iverson can be on a winner, he took the Sixers to the playoffs almost every year and made a few deep runs too, and to be a champion he just needs the right supporting cast to surround his game. He got close and with more attention to detail with the right formula or another superstar preferably a big, he could have gotten there.

Don't bother, it isn't worth the effort. No team in a long time has won a championship with less talent than what Iverson played with, but people have made their minds up. He didn't have the luxury or playing with many other great players (a short time with Deke, a broken down Webber, and an immature Melo are about it) like other great players/teams did. Not one championship-caliber team since before 2000 had less. But, he gets penalized for it, and people claim he wasn't a team player. Yet as soon as he played with the best offensive player he played with in Melo, his game shifted to being more a facilitator while still being a primary scorer. It's a shame that he didn't get the chance to play like that before then. Maybe the perception of him among the haters would be different.

ink
10-09-2012, 03:16 PM
Lol. I can tell you all watched him @ the height of his career by some of the ignorant posts. So based off your logic, correct me if I'm wrong... does that taint all Championships from 1995-2005? Since it was a weak era?

Well he didn't win a championship did he? So that's a moot point. And yes I watched him, just as I've watched the NBA since Jordan's first threepeat era.


My apologies I was wrong to assume that you had a problem with his personality and even myself as an A.I. fanboy can understand your POV on the team sport thing. I too was mad at him for not being more willing to come off the bench and let his ego get the better of him. I think however in the capacity of being a leader he was willing to defer to another star type player (we saw this with Melo, Webber and TD in 04 when he was praised by many critics, coaches and teammates for his willingness to play in a team set up) and even role players (we saw this with McKie when he started alongside A.I. in his MVP season, Korver, Iggy and even Kenny Thomas).

If I weren't a fanboy myself I think what I would question is how well he would work with other players in terms of winning titles rather than saying it will never work. I think that there is enough evidence to tell us that a prime A.I. will be able to play with other quality players around him.

Again, I don't think it's a personality thing at all. This is the problem I have with peoples' "selfishness" argument. I don't see him as selfish or unable to work with other people, I see him as wired to play solo in a team game. For the same reason I don't get too excited about Rose or Westbrook. Like Magic, I don't think that is a winning recipe, though it is very popular for fans.

Swashcuff
10-09-2012, 03:18 PM
Don't bother, it isn't worth the effort. No team in a long time has won a championship with less talent than what Iverson played with, but people have made their minds up. He didn't have the luxury or playing with many other great players (a short time with Deke, a broken down Webber, and an immature Melo are about it) like other great players/teams did. Not one championship-caliber team since before 2000 had less. But, he gets penalized for it, and people claim he wasn't a team player. Yet as soon as he played with the best offensive player he played with in Melo, his game shifted to being more a facilitator while still being a primary scorer. It's a shame that he didn't get the chance to play like that before then. Maybe the perception of him among the haters would be different.

Something everyone who acknowledges Allen Iverson as even an above average player will soon come to realize.

Swashcuff
10-09-2012, 03:20 PM
Again, I don't think it's a personality thing at all. This is the problem I have with peoples' "selfishness" argument. I don't see him as selfish or unable to work with other people, I see him as wired to play solo in a team game. For the same reason I don't get too excited about Rose or Westbrook. Like Magic, I don't think that is a winning recipe, though it is very popular for fans.

Okay I smell you.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 03:20 PM
Well he didn't win a championship did he? So that's a moot point. And yes I watched him, just as I've watched the NBA since Jordan's first threepeat era.
Again, I don't think it's a personality thing at all. This is the problem I have with peoples' "selfishness" argument. I don't see him as selfish or unable to work with other people, I see him as wired to play solo in a team game. For the same reason I don't get too excited about Rose or Westbrook. Like Magic, I don't think that is a winning recipe, though it is very popular for fans.

Well then act like it.

He had to do what he had to do to win ball games, If you want him to play more of a team game, with Marc Jackson, and Kenny Thomas were his 2nd and 3rd options they would have lost more then they did. The reason Iverson didnt win a ring is justified. The same way it's justified why LeBron didn't win a title in Cleveland. Would you have respected Iverson more had he bolted to the Laker's once his contract was up? Hold an hour special on ESPN maybe?

ink
10-09-2012, 03:26 PM
Well then act like it.

He had to do what he had to do to win ball games, If you want him to play more of a team game, with Marc Jackson, and Kenny Thomas were his 2nd and 3rd options they would have lost more then they did.

Act like it?? lol.

People fail to realize how hard it is to build around some of these ISO ball players. A team can't exactly go out and get another alpha when alpha #1 only understands the game in terms of what he can do.

Yes, I watched AI and watched the game suffer for his approach. It caught fire because it looked great in highlights and basically ruined a generation of guards who wanted to emulate his scoring success. Like I said above, Magic touched on this in the post-season last year when he criticized Westbrook for his style. I side completely with Magic on this one, and yes, he would know what success at that position looks like.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 03:31 PM
Act like it?? lol.

People fail to realize how hard it is to build around some of these ISO ball players. A team can't exactly go out and get another alpha when alpha #1 only understands the game in terms of what he can do.

Yes, I watched AI and watched the game suffer for his approach. It caught fire because it looked great in highlights and basically ruined a generation of guards who wanted to emulate his scoring success. Like I said above, Magic touched on this in the post-season last year when he criticized Westbrook for his style. I side completely with Magic on this one, and yes, he would know what success at that position looks like.

Iverson played the cards he was dealt. Isn't LeBron an iso player? Magic also had great teams. John Stockton, another image of what the position looked like right? I agree it is hard-er to build a team, when your best player is purly in iso-type player, but it isn't impossible.

KnickaBocka.44
10-09-2012, 03:36 PM
So he wasn't a good passer? He wasn't great at stealing the ball? If Kobe wasn't a prolific scorer we wouldn't have such a conversation, same for Wade, Gervin, etc.

I honestly don't get the A.I. hate. Its like you guys focus sooooo much on the bad that you never even cared to pay attention to the good that he did. In your guys eyes all Iverson did was chuck and nothing else and wasn't a good player. To me all that says is that 1. I don't like him as a person (see Bagwell and Ink for this)/player or 2. I didn't look at Allen Iverson play and I just regurgitate the garbage others are spreading.

In the years that he averaged his highest assist totals he also averaged over 4 turnovers per game, his assist to turnover ratio was less than 2, I can't say that makes him a very good passer/ reliable with the ball.

Yes, he averaged more than 2 steals per game for the majority of his career, but how many times did he reach and get beat?

I appreciate AI for what he was in terms of his heart and putting up so many points at his size. But in my opinion he was just too wreckless and he hurt his team because of it a lot of time.

ink
10-09-2012, 03:36 PM
Iverson played the cards he was dealt. Isn't LeBron an iso player? Magic also had great teams. John Stockton, another image of what the position looked like right?

Lebron, Magic, and Stockton are all brilliant playmakers. VERY different playmakers mind you. I know AI was capable (per the assist argument AI fans always bring up) but he was always his own 1st option ... and by a mile. It's not a personality flaw, it's wiring. ISO ball players are fun to a degree but I'd rather see a wider range of options in the game. THAT'S the beauty of the game; not watching one-man scoring and four men standing.

KnickaBocka.44
10-09-2012, 03:39 PM
Again, I don't think it's a personality thing at all. This is the problem I have with peoples' "selfishness" argument. I don't see him as selfish or unable to work with other people, I see him as wired to play solo in a team game. For the same reason I don't get too excited about Rose or Westbrook. Like Magic, I don't think that is a winning recipe, though it is very popular for fans.

This is pretty much how I would sum up my opinion of AI without having to cite statistical reference.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-09-2012, 03:40 PM
Lebron, Magic, and Stockton are all brilliant playmakers. VERY different playmakers mind you. I know AI was capable (per the assist argument AI fans always bring up) but he was always his own 1st option ... and by a mile. It's not a personality flaw, it's wiring. ISO ball players are fun to a degree but I'd rather see a wider range of options in the game. THAT'S the beauty of the game; not watching one-man scoring and four men standing.

I agree, but that why I told you he played the cards he was dealt. What other options did he have when he stepped between the lines?

ink
10-09-2012, 03:50 PM
I agree, but that why I told you he played the cards he was dealt. What other options did he have when he stepped between the lines?

And I'm suggesting that people look at the "help" argument from management's side for a second. ISO ball is a stagnant, one-dimensional way of competing. If you have a surplus of star power (as distractions/decoys) you can pull it off but even then it has a stagnant quality to it. The ball movement can be brutal. We've seen other teams win without one dominant ISO player but rather several that share the ball extremely well (recently, Boston and San Antonio) or defend extremely well (Detroit and San Antonio). One man scoring and four men standing is very hard for management to find complementary players for, so that it can become at least two men scoring, especially when the tendency is for that one scorer not to think in terms of the overall game, but instead in terms of calling his own number again and again. It's about how that scorer problem-solves on his feet. Does he try to do it alone or does he have the ball IQ to use his teammates brilliantly. This is where Lebron (a player I don't really care much for) has the edge. He obviously has the size and strength advantage AI never had, but he also has the IQ to see his teammates and facilitate when the opportunity presents itself. My problem with him is that he is too much about strength and size, and not enough about desire, though he rose to the occasion last spring. Players like Lebron and Magic have/had a whole other side to their game that AI just wasn't wired for.

3RDASYSTEM
10-09-2012, 04:21 PM
No way no how

Philly put the best talent money could buy(MCKIE/SNOW for 42million a piece and WEBBER/BIGDOG/IGGY/KORVER/COLEMAN/MARC JACKSON) around him for 10yrs and all he could do was manage 1 measly FINALS app. and 1 FINALS win

NASH got paired with DIRK/AMARE back to back and couldnt muster a FINALS app. after i wanna say they were the no1 seed 3x or so, but i get it NASH had a higher PER/efficiency rating so he was better and we can never forget they played with 'equal' roster talent or was MAVS/SUNS player talent superior to anything AI had in SIXERLAND? '

please educate me you genuises on PSD

now enough with the funny talk, peep 'game' below..in literal form

http://youtu.be/MJa7z6ru7kU - KG vs AI - 17 and 18yrs old...now watch how IVERSON is just so selfish he cant play with no dominant 'big' or 'wing', just way way too selfish to build around, dont even know how he got into NBA hes so damn selfish ..such a cancer

http://youtu.be/5FGki9gshb4 - AAU, elevation/form on his shot is pure butter for those who say he 'cant' shoot, while i say it was the defensive scheme/only scoring option so he had to force and take so many shots with shot clock down and lack of elite wing/big scorer

how can a guy be efficient getting WILT/JORDAN/SHAQ rules thrown at him and being scoring option #1,#2,#3,#4 at 5'9-10''? how can he shoot a decent pct when he has to shoot 30x from the 'point' guard position, or being a 5'9'' shooting guard, isnt that a disadvantage off top for a player? of course it is, no difference than BARKLEY playing PF at 6'4''(listed 6'6'')..just freakish what he did on court at his size once you really soak it in

1996 - G.HILL vs AI - http://youtu.be/O1GMRc8U9wo Title says it all, a rookie AI vs a 'PSD PRIME' G.HILL

2001 - http://youtu.be/4OppxKDj44E - KB vs AI - KB was such a allnba supreme defender that he let LUE/FISHER guard him because they were the allnba defenders

2008 - http://youtu.be/rtjn9rg9K7k - now watch and tell me what changed about his game from 1993-2008 before being blackballed/benched in 2009? a top 3 scorer benched 5 months later has never happened in nba history..or sports history for that matter

now go get me any player who played same game from that young of an age to that old of an age.......trust me it wont be but a small chosen select group

you wont ever see a guy his size get WILT/JORDAN rules ever again in nba history

PSD genuises let me know is getting that type of defensive attention a lack of talent on roster or is IVERSON that damn good or a combo of both?

he played ISO ball with SNOW/MCKIE, he did what he had to do with IGGY/KORVER(and they got paid from AI's alley oops and open 3pt looks), he had MARC as his number 1 sidekick and even KENNY THOMAS and washed up COLEMAN and a JERRY 'think he better than he was' STACKHOUSE

if AI would have had that PIERCE/TMAC or that TMAC/DIRK combo we wouldnt even be having this discussion..the same way DURANT was build around was the same way PHILLY could/should have done it but they went with a TIM THOMAS/VAN HORN/HUGHES package over the ones i mentioned before...just dumb front office manuevering.

but AI would clearly pass the ball if he had a SHAQ/MOURNING/KG/DUNCAN/PIERCE/DIRK/TMAC

are you guys that ****ing dumb on here? if so watch the vids i posted from 93-2008

its like monkey say monkey repeat when it comes to players like IVERSON/WILT/BRON(pre title)

Like you do understand that playing with 2 or 3 allstars or superstars that 'ISO' ball goes out the window..even for the great IVERSON...But playing with guys who avg 3-4ppg is not a good recipe for playing team ball....and quit bringing up MAGIC he was playing with ALCINDOR/WORTHY and others so why not pass the ball to finishers on the block and on the wing(IVERSON would do it also), and BRON is a whole foot taller than IVERSON and yet AI had the same pressure he did in CAVSLAND

How in the world is he going to run 100pct ISO ball with the post presence of a SHAQ/KG/DUNCAN/MOURNING or a wing presence of a DIRK/PIERCE/TMAC? of course he will do that with a core of GIEGER/MCCULLOUGH or MCKIE/JUMAINE JONES combo

he played less ISO ball when they got 2x microfractured WEBBER to pair with IGGY/KORVER and even less but had to score with MELO in DENVER ..MELO dropped 50pts with AI, and vice versa...imagine if he had another player capable of doing that in his young SIXER days, they did in PIERCE/TMAC/DIRK but felt VAN HORN/HUGHES were the better players cause they sure werent the better 'fit'...you dont draft same combo guard or a slow big to compliment a fast skilled athletic PG, you surround him with capable scorers/athletic bigs and wings who can finish or make it happen on they own..not depend on 1 man

you guys just dont like his hiphop persona or something of that nature, because we sure cant be ?'ing the mans actual game/passion/mental-physical toughness/skillset/athletic ability ...especially the one he displayed on hardwood...priceless, 'PER' pct's included

And cut it out with the he wanted to be alpha and couldnt play with another alpha..******** because BROWN said all he wanted to do was WIN at all costs..so it took him to shoot that much to get it done

3RDASYSTEM
10-09-2012, 05:01 PM
Iverson got 16 assists in a game where BROWN told him to go into pass mode because they were running all 5 guys at him on offense

no allstars and dropped 16 dimes in pivotal playoff game

so why wouldnt he be able to do that more consistent with 2 or 3 allstar/superstar players but did it with non scorers?

xcrisisx
10-09-2012, 06:15 PM
No way no how

Philly put the best talent money could buy(MCKIE/SNOW for 42million a piece and WEBBER/BIGDOG/IGGY/KORVER/COLEMAN/MARC JACKSON) around him for 10yrs and all he could do was manage 1 measly FINALS app. and 1 FINALS win



stopped reading after this.
if you call this bunch the best talent money could buy.. the discussion ends.
not disrespecting any of the players mentioned, but
webber,coleman and glenn robinson were ending their carreers, iggy nice drafted, korver was a verry late pick so he didn't even matter back than, mckie snow overpaid. who is marc jackson?
just awfull teams, be glad he even made the finals instead of disrespecting!

bagwell368
10-09-2012, 08:50 PM
You obviously know nothing about the NBA pre 2007. Look at his career numbers, 27 PPG, more than 6 assist per game, more than 2 steals per game, former MVP, rookie of the year and took a scrub 76er team to the NBA finals. Shaq and Barkley rank him among the top players ever and they both say he's the best small guy to ever play and I am sure if you ask others no one will argue with that. Yes Iverson can be on a winner, he took the Sixers to the playoffs almost every year and made a few deep runs too, and to be a champion he just needs the right supporting cast to surround his game. He got close and with more attention to detail with the right formula or another superstar preferably a big, he could have gotten there.

Yeah sure. I saw my first game in 1965. High scoring with meh shooting percentage and not excellent in any other way adds up to Iverson being overrated by many, and needing to be put in a very specific setting to have a hope of winning a title.

Tat wasn't a scrub NBA team that went to the Finals. Check again.

bagwell368
10-09-2012, 08:52 PM
Having Iverson paired up with a playmaking SG like Harden would be awesome

defensive SF

offensive PF and a defensive C and you got yourself a good starting 5

Most great players don't need such a specific formula. Doesn't that suggest something to you?

ink
10-09-2012, 08:55 PM
Yeah sure. I saw my first game in 1965. High scoring with meh shooting percentage and not excellent in any other way adds up to Iverson being overrated by many, and needing to be put in a very specific setting to have a hope of winning a title.

Tat wasn't a scrub NBA team that went to the Finals. Check again.

AI has the dubious distinction of leading one of the few US Olympic rosters to lose the gold medal. They won bronze behind Argentina and Italy in 2004. That was only the third time in Olympic history that the US didn't win gold.

I guess those were scrubs he was playing with there too.

bagwell368
10-09-2012, 08:57 PM
Don't know what else to tell you, bro. I've pleaded my case. So... Like I said, If you only respect Iverson, for his scoring, thats fine, but just know your a little misinformed. You never said I was incorrect when I said you didn't watch much of his career. That's all I needed to know.

There is a lot of verbiage to go thru here. He never played for my team. I probably saw him play 80 times in the regular season and 40 in the playoffs, that was enough.

bagwell368
10-09-2012, 09:05 PM
Thank you. It's sad, man. I don't get it honestly. When people tell him he wasn't a good defender blows my mind, He wasn't Gary Payton by any means, but he could hold his own. And sayin he's a ball hog, WTF. I show them #'s but still choose to make an excuse for that. "Since he had the ball for x amount of mins per game, averaging 7 assists, is the equivelent to barley 2 assists a game." lol I don't get it Swash.

Iverson's defense declined quite a bit in the second half of his career.

His assist numbers are not impressive by any means with a guy that held the ball so much. You guys are talking a HOF level player (according to his boosters) - and his assist numbers are not elite. I can't even believe u guys want to push his passing as some big positive.

RaiderLakersA's
10-09-2012, 09:09 PM
Would you build your team around a Prime Allen Iverson as the Best Player?

No.

bagwell368
10-09-2012, 09:13 PM
Iverson's defense declined quite a bit in the second half of his career.

His assist numbers are not impressive by any means with a guy that held the ball so much. You guys are talking a HOF level player (according to his boosters) - and his assist numbers are not elite. I can't even believe u guys want to push his passing as some big positive.


Iverson got 16 assists in a game where BROWN told him to go into pass mode because they were running all 5 guys at him on offense

no allstars and dropped 16 dimes in pivotal playoff game

so why wouldnt he be able to do that more consistent with 2 or 3 allstar/superstar players but did it with non scorers?

Because h did it for one game. U think he was gonna give himself up night after night. I ask for balanced play from great players, not a one/off to prove he could do it.

smith&wesson
10-09-2012, 09:26 PM
Would you build your team around a Prime Allen Iverson as the Best Player?

:laugh: you mean instead of building the raptors around bargnani would i want to build the team around prime allen iverson :confused: ummmm yaaaaaaa obvi

003
10-09-2012, 09:47 PM
There were a few years where he was arguably the best player in the league. People like to hate on Iverson for his attitude and how he faded fast at the end of his career. But come on the second best player on his team was probably Dikembe Mutombo and they beat the Lakers in game 1 of the Finals against Shaq and Kobe with Iverson putting up 48. Yeah..Id take my chances with a top 5 player during his era. Now the downside and the benefit of hindsight, if you knew he'd break down and his game would decline so fast I can see how you could say no. But he was the Derrick Rose of his day, and the Bulls are building around him.

bagwell368
10-09-2012, 09:51 PM
There were a few years where he was arguably the best player in the league. People like to hate on Iverson for his attitude and how he faded fast at the end of his career. But come on the second best player on his team was probably Dikembe Mutombo and they beat the Lakers in game 1 of the Finals against Shaq and Kobe with Iverson putting up 48. Yeah..Id take my chances with a top 5 player during his era. Now the downside and the benefit of hindsight, if you knew he'd break down and his game would decline so fast I can see how you could say no. But he was the Derrick Rose of his day, and the Bulls are building around him.

He never cracked the top 8 - no way.

Rose last year put up a year better than any year Iverson had.

003
10-09-2012, 10:19 PM
Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Theo Ratliff, and Mutombo and they made the Finals. I'd take Rip, Deng, Taj, and Noah in a heartbeat. And Rose never cracked the Finals. I'm a Rose guy. I'd love for you to be right, but you're just not. I'm not trying to turn this into a Rose vs Iverson argument either. But to say Iverson wouldn't crack the top 8 is just ridiculous. The guy was really good and it shouldn't bother you so much.

KnickaBocka.44
10-09-2012, 11:22 PM
Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Theo Ratliff, and Mutombo and they made the Finals. I'd take Rip, Deng, Taj, and Noah in a heartbeat. And Rose never cracked the Finals. I'm a Rose guy. I'd love for you to be right, but you're just not. I'm not trying to turn this into a Rose vs Iverson argument either. But to say Iverson wouldn't crack the top 8 is just ridiculous. The guy was really good and it shouldn't bother you so much.

They made the Finals, but keep in mind you are referencing an extremely weak era for the Eastern Conference.

Swashcuff
10-09-2012, 11:33 PM
AI has the dubious distinction of leading one of the few US Olympic rosters to lose the gold medal. They won bronze behind Argentina and Italy in 2004. That was only the third time in Olympic history that the US didn't win gold.

I guess those were scrubs he was playing with there too.

Really are you being serious right now. For a second I started seeing rationale in your posts and then you come with this waste. Seriously.

A.I. lead that team? Wasn't TIM DUNCAN the best player on that team? Tim Duncan was the CAPTAIN of that team and even he praised A.I. for how well he played for them. How on earth can you some stupid stuff like A.I. lead them to a bronze. Seriously. What a utterly ridiculous post.

Jamizzal
10-10-2012, 01:47 AM
He never cracked the top 8 - no way.

Rose last year put up a year better than any year Iverson had.

i dont post much but please list me 8 better players that deserved the mvp more than A.I that year. Better yet show me how he was not a top 3 player in his era let alone top 5. Iverson is just the kind of player that brings a lot of good and bad to the table don't solely focus on the bad. Also I love how Kobe (an iso player just like Iverson) is not getting killed in this thread, im convinced thats because of his success which can be chalked up to the fact that he played with amazing teams nearly year in and year out when he did win. :shrug: and im pretty sure kobe is nearly as one dimensional. But he's had success i guess? lets not act like Kobe has ever done it alone, matter of fact did kobe ever get to the finals on his own?

bagwell368
10-10-2012, 10:26 AM
Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Theo Ratliff, and Mutombo and they made the Finals. I'd take Rip, Deng, Taj, and Noah in a heartbeat. And Rose never cracked the Finals. I'm a Rose guy. I'd love for you to be right, but you're just not. I'm not trying to turn this into a Rose vs Iverson argument either. But to say Iverson wouldn't crack the top 8 is just ridiculous. The guy was really good and it shouldn't bother you so much.

So far all you are offering is opinions.

TS%: Rose .550 > .518

eFG%: Rose .485 > .447

3PT: Rose: .332 > .320

FT%: Rose .858 > .814

FG%: Rose .445 > .420

Ast: Rose 7.7 > 4.6

Reb: Rose 4.1 => 3.8

Stl: Iverson 2.5 > 1.0

Tov: Iverson 3.3 => 3.4

WS/48: Rose .208 > .190

WS Rose: 13.1 > 11.8

Playoff WS/48: Rose .165 > .130

Figure out all the misses AI had vs if he shot at Rose's percentage, then figure out what the o-rebounding rate of 76'ers vs the d-rebounding rate of the other teams and all of those are effectively turnovers.

Rose had more assists, a bit more rebounding and less steals (but better D rates than Iverson).

So, how was Iverson better in his MVP season then Rose? Numbers don't bear that out. Advanced stats like WS and WS/48 have Rose > Iverson.

Iverson was a volume shooter, that hurts your value as a player. He never made it into the top 8 in NBA. Outside of steal % and 3 years in the top 10 in ast%, his name is absent from any leader boards for percentages - very notable for his shooting. Just counting stats (2 times #1 in turnovers - cancels out his 2 times leading the league in steals). Lots of high ranks for FG taken, but not so much for FG made.

Response?

bagwell368
10-10-2012, 10:47 AM
i dont post much but please list me 8 better players that deserved the mvp more than A.I that year. Better yet show me how he was not a top 3 player in his era let alone top 5. Iverson is just the kind of player that brings a lot of good and bad to the table don't solely focus on the bad. Also I love how Kobe (an iso player just like Iverson) is not getting killed in this thread, im convinced thats because of his success which can be chalked up to the fact that he played with amazing teams nearly year in and year out when he did win. :shrug: and im pretty sure kobe is nearly as one dimensional. But he's had success i guess? lets not act like Kobe has ever done it alone, matter of fact did kobe ever get to the finals on his own?

Awards are subjective so instead of saying that the names I give mean that they all should have won the MVP, I'll say instead that that they played better:

Shaquille O'Neal-LAL
Dirk Nowitzki-DAL
Ray Allen-MIL
Tim Duncan-SAS
Karl Malone-UTA
Vince Carter-TOR
Steve Francis-HOU
Tracy McGrady-ORL
David Robinson-SAS

These guys were all about as good as Iverson:

Kevin Garnett-MIN
Shawn Marion-PHO
Kobe Bryant-LAL

Kobe is in his prime is a better shooter. In the middle of his career and playoffs in general he was a much greater defender as well. He's also played longer and more consistently. Better rebounder. Fiercer and more directed competitor. BTW, I don't like Kobe as a human being, and I could certainly hate him being a Laker. The only really stupid thing he did is force Shaq out of town. What can I say, the guy won me over with his playoff D, and his intensity for winning. Iverson could play like that in snippets but eventually the lure of the shot would shake him loose back to his me first ways.

WAIT! I just saw the top 3 of his era. Really? KG, Duncan, Robinson, Mutombo, Gasol, Kobe, Miller, Payton, Allen, Nash, Pierce, Kidd, Billups, Nowitzki. If Schremph was 5 years later I'd add him too. All of those guys I'd take to work a team around before I ever went near the **** at the bottom of their sneakers.

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 10:51 AM
Why in the **** are you guys missing the entire point

IVERSON shot alot for those SIXER squads he led for 10 plus seasons

He took a team to FINALS in a WEAK conference with the 'WEAKEST' roster talent ever
yall keep sayin the EAST was weak to justify his app....but fail to realize how ****** that squad was, horrendous on offensive end....AI had to shoot 40x against LAKERS basically every game to keep'em in it...but i get it, he just did it for kicks, MCKIE/SNOW could have easily shouldered the load figuring they were putting up a incredible 3&4ppg respectively preIVERSON...just remarkable

He took a team of all hardnosed defenders to the the FINALS and the only allnba defense player was a 35yr old player who was non existent very next season after implementation of the 3 sec defensive rule and he played with that guy for a 1 1/2 seasons ...same as MELO(his best mate ever)

His assists number are lower considered he played with non finishers/shooters until he got IGGY/KORVER and he shot up to basically 8apg....so his assists numbers shouldnt never be that high since he was a '2guard' right? he avg 6apg as a 2guard, thats damn damn good, considering he was the only scorer/creator on his squad ..its not skewed at all in negative way, it shows you he got it done with 'non allstars''


you silly mother****ers are acting like he played with roster talent that KIDD/NASH had, and they only beat him by 1 FINALS app. playing with the likes of preinjury KMART/DIRK/AMARE

He played with some of the most avg bball players ever in history and gets punished for it...you guys are overrating individual players like i've never seen in my life

all i hear is BRON had to leave CAVS because they roster sucked, KOBE picked his team on draft day then wanted out in 07 because lack of roster talent, CP3 wanted out of HORNETVILLE because lack of roster talent, MAGIC doesnt want to enter NBA unless he go to LA/ALCINDOR,

but oh man when IVERSON sticks it out and stays loyalty to a ****** org. and crying on draft day in 1998 when they chose HUGHES over PIERCE psd people say he just didnt 'have it' or was a 'volume shooter' or just didnt want another alpha player,but he 'cried' on draft day..its well documented to those who actually follow sports news thoroughly

Hell if AI had a roster like BIRD/MAGIC/SHAQ/ISAIAH during they entire career we wouldnt be saying how should we build around him, the org/gm failed so we can have a discussion about him at any moment anytime

you guys are severely extremely overrating DEKE/MCKIE/SNOW/LYNCH/IGGY/KORVER/TYRONE HILL/K.THOMAS/RATLIFF

and are overlooking he got the injured/retired BIGDOG GLENN ROB/WEBBER, the outshape quit on his career COLEMAN on like 3 diff. ocassions, had a slow footed sorry VAN HORN and MCCULLOUGH and so on

i mean really HUGHES over PIERCE? you guys have to be the most uneducated bball people who front like you know it because you been watching since 1965.. are you sure you still not just watching the 60's games?

you dummies act like he got MCKIE/SNOW(his core) as ALLSTARS/20+ppg scorers and dipped them down to 10&11ppg but it was complete opposite as i state above, and yall act like DEKE was a 20 and 15 guy and he dipped him down to 11-12ppg, but he was who he was when AI got him, on decline bigtime and he never was that type of impact player, only defense side as i stated AI took all 'defenders' to FINALS, they couldnt run offense consistently not thru 1 other player but AI, but what do i know about bball, i just watch and participate in it thoroughly

he got MCKIE/SNOW/MCCULLOUGH/IGGY/KORVER paid bigtime off his game, and they all have a combined 1 ALLSTAR app. in a combined like 50nba seasons or more and IGGY is only one to make it with a allworld allnba 12ppg and his 6th man of yr MCKIE put up a blazing 11.7ppg

and they say he couldnt get it done, i bet NASH/KOBE/BRON/WADE/CP3 wouldnt have gotten it done with those 2 players as they 'ROBIN' either, but im sure psd begs to differ

congrats psd

xcrisisx
10-10-2012, 11:01 AM
. He never made it into the top 8 in NBA.
Response?

bs:eyebrow:

Chronz
10-10-2012, 11:33 AM
Why in the **** are you guys missing the entire point
I havent read **** but I can assure you, your the one missing the point. Your excuses arent relevant, you are a proven exaggerater (remember when you said AI finishes in the paint like Bron? :facepalm: ) and a proven homer. When you talk about AI no one cares what you have to say, which is pretty much the only time you post.



He took a team to FINALS in a WEAK conference with the 'WEAKEST' roster talent ever
False, when you consider his conference and his support, he better have won the East. He had one of the best defense in his conference backing him up, he had the COY, 6MOY, DPOY etc...



yall keep sayin the EAST was weak to justify his app....but fail to realize how ****** that squad was, horrendous on offensive end....AI had to shoot 40x against LAKERS basically every game to keep'em in it...but i get it, he just did it for kicks, MCKIE/SNOW could have easily shouldered the load figuring they were putting up a incredible 3&4ppg respectively preIVERSON...just remarkable
Nobody fails to realize that, we recognize how every offensively gifted player hes ever played alongside thrived when he wasn't around so it makes sense that the team went with the route of surrounding him with defenders. They had to find players who could play with AI, that was their answer. And it led to a great defensive unit. AI being the lone gunman doesnt exonerate his shortcomings.




He took a team of all hardnosed defenders to the the FINALS and the only allnba defense player was a 35yr old player who was non existent very next season after implementation of the 3 sec defensive rule and he played with that guy for a 1 1/2 seasons ...same as MELO(his best mate ever)
Yes, thats why hes overrated.


His assists number are lower considered he played with non finishers/shooters until he got IGGY/KORVER and he shot up to basically 8apg....so his assists numbers shouldnt never be that high since he was a '2guard' right? he avg 6apg as a 2guard, thats damn damn good, considering he was the only scorer/creator on his squad ..its not skewed at all in negative way, it shows you he got it done with 'non allstars''
Shows me he was a combo guard.


you silly mother****ers are acting like he played with roster talent that KIDD/NASH had, and they only beat him by 1 FINALS app. playing with the likes of preinjury KMART/DIRK/AMARE
Nah, we already know those teams were far better.


He played with some of the most avg bball players ever in history and gets punished for it...you guys are overrating individual players like i've never seen in my life
He gets punished for his limitations, nothing more.



Hell if AI had a roster like BIRD/MAGIC/SHAQ/ISAIAH during they entire career we wouldnt be saying how should we build around him, the org/gm failed so we can have a discussion about him at any moment anytime
False, I wouldnt build around AI even if ownership was able to build him an absolutely perfect team.


you guys are severely extremely overrating DEKE/MCKIE/SNOW/LYNCH/IGGY/KORVER/TYRONE HILL/K.THOMAS/RATLIFF

and are overlooking he got the injured/retired BIGDOG GLENN ROB/WEBBER, the outshape quit on his career COLEMAN on like 3 diff. ocassions, had a slow footed sorry VAN HORN and MCCULLOUGH and so on

i mean really HUGHES over PIERCE? you guys have to be the most uneducated bball people who front like you know it because you been watching since 1965.. are you sure you still not just watching the 60's games?

you dummies act like he got MCKIE/SNOW(his core) as ALLSTARS/20+ppg scorers and dipped them down to 10&11ppg but it was complete opposite as i state above, and yall act like DEKE was a 20 and 15 guy and he dipped him down to 11-12ppg, but he was who he was when AI got him, on decline bigtime and he never was that type of impact player, only defense side as i stated AI took all 'defenders' to FINALS, they couldnt run offense consistently not thru 1 other player but AI, but what do i know about bball, i just watch and participate in it thoroughly

he got MCKIE/SNOW/MCCULLOUGH/IGGY/KORVER paid bigtime off his game, and they all have a combined 1 ALLSTAR app. in a combined like 50nba seasons or more and IGGY is only one to make it with a allworld allnba 12ppg and his 6th man of yr MCKIE put up a blazing 11.7ppg

and they say he couldnt get it done, i bet NASH/KOBE/BRON/WADE/CP3 wouldnt have gotten it done with those 2 players as they 'ROBIN' either, but im sure psd begs to differ

congrats psd
Get a clue plz, no one blames AI for not winning, we already know he wasn't good enough to win much with that team. We just blame him for his limitations.

Chronz
10-10-2012, 11:34 AM
Because h did it for one game. U think he was gonna give himself up night after night. I ask for balanced play from great players, not a one/off to prove he could do it.

LOL hes mentioned this game before, I think AI went like 1-30 with like 10 turnovers that game too.

Miltstar
10-10-2012, 11:44 AM
Pair up Iverson with a prime Alonzo Mourning and Dennis Rodman and you've got yourself a team, throw in maybe a Bruce Bowen type player and maybe Michael Redd, that would be a helluva team

I tried to go with something believable instead of just stacking superstars.

sp1derm00
10-10-2012, 11:44 AM
AI
Ray Allen
Reggie Miller
Dennis Rodman
Ben Wallace

AI is easily the best player on this team. He's surrounded with two of the greatest shooters in NBA history and two of the best defenders/rebounders in NBA history. With Rodman and Wallace, AI would get all the shots his little heart desires... and if he's in trouble he can kick it out to high percentage 3's to Reggie or Ray.

Easy title.

Chronz
10-10-2012, 11:46 AM
Pair up Iverson with a prime Alonzo Mourning and Dennis Rodman and you've got yourself a team, throw in maybe a Bruce Bowen type player and maybe Michael Redd, that would be a helluva team

I tried to go with something believable instead of just stacking superstars.

If you throw in a prime Alonzo Mourning then this is no longer a team with AI as the best player on it. And if we are doing that then sure, you can win with AI but to build a contender around someone like him is much harder than most star SG's.

Miltstar
10-10-2012, 12:00 PM
If you throw in a prime Alonzo Mourning then this is no longer a team with AI as the best player on it. And if we are doing that then sure, you can win with AI but to build a contender around someone like him is much harder than most star SG's.

Fair enough, then no you probably can't win with Just AI. The only way you build a great team with AI is if you also have a dominant center IMO.

bagwell368
10-10-2012, 12:00 PM
His assists number are lower considered he played with non finishers/shooters until he got IGGY/KORVER and he shot up to basically 8apg....so his assists numbers shouldnt never be that high since he was a '2guard' right? he avg 6apg as a 2guard, thats damn damn good, considering he was the only scorer/creator on his squad ..its not skewed at all in negative way, it shows you he got it done with 'non allstars''

Rubbish. In 2000-2001, 5 regulars had better TS% that AI, and 9 regulars had better eFG%'s.

AI like you were laboring under the bogus impression he had to do everything. His team would have played better if he shared the rock more, not less and his own shooting percentages would have gone up.


you guys are overrating individual players like i've never seen in my life

I don't even know what this means? You are overrating AI, that much is abundantly clear.


i mean really HUGHES over PIERCE? you guys have to be the most uneducated bball people who front like you know it because you been watching since 1965.. are you sure you still not just watching the 60's games?

Hunh? Because Philly drafted Hughes over Pierce (as did other teams pass on Pierce) that somehow ties into me as a viewer/player/coach? Wow, that's some logic there, I must say.

bagwell368
10-10-2012, 12:07 PM
AI
Ray Allen
Reggie Miller
Dennis Rodman
Ben Wallace

AI is easily the best player on this team. He's surrounded with two of the greatest shooters in NBA history and two of the best defenders/rebounders in NBA history. With Rodman and Wallace, AI would get all the shots his little heart desires... and if he's in trouble he can kick it out to high percentage 3's to Reggie or Ray.

Easy title.

No sir. AI is not easily the best player on that team. He'd be 5th.

#1. Miller
#2. Allen (why do you have three SG's ?????? - Oh. I get it - AI at point), so why do you have 2 SG's? Miller can't hold up at the #3 game in and game out, nowhere near rugged enough.
#3. Rodman
#4. Wallace (and a 4/5 playing 5)
#5. Iverson

Who plays the point and the SF, and a real full time center (or does Rodman fix that?)? Wow, what an expertly drawn team. You only had 3 guys on offense that can catch the ball, you can't even use the bigs to pass into, and kick it back. They just touch the ball on rebounds. Any chance that they can dribble? No. All 4 of those guys is like top 150 all time career wise. The team I tossed together earlier is much better with much less fanfare.

My team was circa 2000-2001: Robinson, Camby, Ray Allen, Mashburn, and Andre Miller - a couple of aging players out of their prime and some very good role guys/good starters but not All Pro's.

bagwell368
10-10-2012, 12:09 PM
bs:eyebrow:

Nice data... did you read post #210? Anything you care to comment on? Or just more little cute smilies?

Chronz
10-10-2012, 12:44 PM
AI
Ray Allen
Reggie Miller
Dennis Rodman
Ben Wallace

AI is easily the best player on this team. He's surrounded with two of the greatest shooters in NBA history and two of the best defenders/rebounders in NBA history. With Rodman and Wallace, AI would get all the shots his little heart desires... and if he's in trouble he can kick it out to high percentage 3's to Reggie or Ray.

Easy title.

I gotta say, for someone trying to build a Dream Team around 1 player and to come up with this is pretty sad IMO, not that its not a decent team but surely there can be a better All-Time AI Team right?


Honestly I dont even know if AI is the best player on here much less "easily" better, are you saying these are the players you would pair him up with while he was in the league or just in general?
Regardless that team looks good but has some serious interior scoring issues. I know your trying to overcome the lack of interior scoring with 2 of the greatest perimeter shooters ever and while both are commended for their off the ball play, I have questions how 2 off the ball players like them would look next to each other. Particularly when all the screen action would be done by offensively inept bigmen like Ben and Rodman.

AI would get blitzed on any PnR, nobody would leave the 2 greatest shooters in fear of giving those bigs a lane to the rim. AI wasn't as great of distributer as you would want from a PG so there could be some issues there as well.

Defensively, having those 2 will make you great and in a league where AI gets the perfect cast around him while everyone else stays the same, they may contend, but if you do the same for a variety of other players, Im confident they could build a better Dream Team for say Paul Pierce. ****, if you replace AI with Pierce on that same team it would already get ALOT better defensively.

ink
10-10-2012, 01:41 PM
Really are you being serious right now. For a second I started seeing rationale in your posts and then you come with this waste. Seriously.

A.I. lead that team? Wasn't TIM DUNCAN the best player on that team? Tim Duncan was the CAPTAIN of that team and even he praised A.I. for how well he played for them. How on earth can you some stupid stuff like A.I. lead them to a bronze. Seriously. What a utterly ridiculous post.

Hardly ridiculous since he was noted again and again DURING and BEFORE Olympic competition as a leader. Not an unusual label for the PG, the supposed distributor. I'm aware that Duncan was on the team. The losses were a turning point for Basketball USA because it became apparent that the era of NBA ISO ball wasn't going to cut it, even against inferior talent but better TEAMS in international play. A familiar problem with AI-led teams. From AI's flop on the international stage forward, Coach K and Jerry Colangelo would change the direction of the team away from solo offence to solid fundamental, 2 way team play. The result? The next two Games yielded gold medals. Don't bother lecturing me about Olympic sport.

Swashcuff
10-10-2012, 01:43 PM
Hardly ridiculous since he was noted again and again DURING and BEFORE Olympic competition as a leader. Not an unusual label for the PG, the supposed distributor. I'm aware that Duncan was on the team. The losses were a turning point for Basketball USA because it became apparent that the era of NBA ISO ball wasn't going to cut it, even against inferior talent but better TEAMS in international play. A familiar problem with AI-led teams. From AI's flop on the international stage forward, Coach K and Jerry Colangelo would change the direction of the team away from solo to team play. The result? The next two Games yielded gold medals. Don't bother lecturing me about Olympic sport.

A.I.'s flop? SERIOUSLY?

I really think you're deserving of the facepalm now. This man is now blaming ALLEN IVERSON for the Team USA debacle Ladies and Gentlemen I have just read it all.

:pity:

ink
10-10-2012, 01:53 PM
A.I.'s flop? SERIOUSLY?

I really think you're deserving of the facepalm now. This man is now blaming ALLEN IVERSON for the Team USA debacle Ladies and Gentlemen I have just read it all.

:pity:

He was the team's co-captain and he failed to lead them on the court or off. It was a pretty common observation so give up the grandstanding. It's silly.

My point is that he had a ton of talent around him and he still couldn't win. It's not a character flaw, it's that a solo athlete cannot win a team game.

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 01:56 PM
CHRONZ go somewhere and hide, and who cares what topic i come speak on, it must be legit since you recall...i dont recall you posting on anything other than you claiming KEVIN GARNETT needed help in MINNY but AI didnt in PHILLY is when i just quit taking you serious

also you post on AI and say the most dumbest **** ever and to think you're a fan of basically AI in KG/BRON, but they got bailed out by BOS/MIA ....AI almost got bailed out similar in 2000 summer to DETROIT(imagine that)

IVERSON does get to the paint like BRON with as much ease tho his degree of difficulty is majorly higher,so yea i misworded and said 'finish' but he 'gets' in the paint just as easy or easier,its very very very well documented/highlighted

a 6'8'' guy is supposed to be/live in the paint especially if he if freak of nature, now how can a 5'9'' guy attack the paint equally? and who cares if he cant finish better than a foot taller freak of nature, it still doesnt take away from his ability to get into the lane of the 'bigs'

his support was a team of defenders so that should make it certainn he should come out the EAST? what poppycock, it was his ability to drop 40-50pts a nite to mask the non scorers/creators they had

he never had a 25 and 10 big, or a PIPPEN like all around allstar, unless you count IGGY

you're a ****ing BRON homer, and saying AI had 6th man of yr in AARON MCKIE just shuts you down completely, your bball knowledge of actual 'players game' is ****ing mindblowing, when i think of 6th men of yr traditionally, i think of R.PIERCE/MCKEY, NOT MCKIE/SCHREMPF/KUKOC/MICROWAVE/TERRY/GINOBILI/CRAWFORD types, not not 3ppg scorer converted to 11.7ppg to win a 6th man of yr, that was all on the shoulders of IVERSON, they won 56 games that yr with that ****** squad and he sat out last 5 which could have led to 60wins with that talent roster

BRON also had coach of yr and most improved in VERAJOA and fringe allstar MO WILL? where did it get him again? AI had to carry same or more load as BRON but was a whole foot shorter and 100lbs lighter, but yea i get it hes overrated

You got to be smoking that good **** to say he's overrated by playing with avg ****ing talent? like no superstar/perennial allstar? hes overrated by playing with fringe dleaguers/starters? you get dumber by the post i sware

Show u he was a combo guard? like you didnt see how BROWN run him baseline to baseline to shoot/create for his squad as SG, then O'BRIEN switch him to PG later on when IGGY/KORVER was there? well damn i guess you dont watch bball, good for you, what the **** is that called when you play both backcourt positions?

of course those teams were better, thats my whole point of saying he never played with a talented roster like NASH/KIDD...CHRONZ are you on something heavy over there?

it doesnt matter if its 'building' around, its talent/allstars on the rosters BIRD/MAGIC/ISAIAH/SHAQ had, all im saying....its like if IVERSON would have been on PORTLAND/DALLAS his entire career, no excuses from me because the roster talent would be there, the gm/owner would make sure of it

its the reason why i think the nba ran off PAT CROCE, he was going to put the right players around AI, not a entire roster full of defenders

you sound so ****ing dumb thinking a 5'9'' wanted to shoot 40x a game for kicks, he wanted to win....BROWN spews this thru media channels everywhere

blaming him for his size? that was his only limitations on the court, he was in same athletic/physical ability league as BRON/SHAQ/WILT and they all basically 7ft tall..

what was his limitations? not having a stacked roster to see how far he could go annually? cause he sure wasnt limited by his actual game/ability

IVERSON never had a squad picked as preseason favs by anybody in his philly tenure, not uhtil NUGGS when STEPHEN A picked'em to come out

only reason PHILLY competed annually was because of that #3 guy, i use to get sick and tired of reading nba mags spewing the same bs talk, PHILLY has a chance at playoffs because of that #3 guy

no other help, really?

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 02:12 PM
and thats the thing now, its labels like PG/SG

But back then it was just a guard, thats what IVERSON is.. a playmaker/creator type guard, game on line make a play happen, thats what he is

you guys are pure comedy, especially when BRON said he didnt want to have bad knees(basketball language meaning ****** roster) when he turned 30 so he took his talents to SOUTHBEACH to play with a better/championship caliber roster

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 02:22 PM
PHILLY had the pieces/picks in place, it doesnt take this fantasy **** yall talking about to build around a top 3 player of his era

1996 - IVERSON, they had BOWEN already also to start at 2guard for defense and hone his corner 3shot, then move STACKHOUSE to GINOBILI/KUKOC role early in career, he may not have liked it but it would have been lethal for the squad

1997 - Try to package up for DUNCAN or trade for proven pick like BOS did for KG, or just draft TMAC as wing scorer and relief PG to spell AI

1998 - he literally cried when they didnt draft PIERCE who was a top 3-5 college player and fell all way to 10th

now with a core of possibly AI/TMAC/PIERCE or AI/TMAC/DIRK and a top defender in BOWEN, top defensive and maybe best overall coach in BROWN, and a top legit 6th man of yr candidate whos young in STACKHOUSE

now just put the proper specialist like shooters/athletes/finishers/dirty work hustle types and thats all you need

its like ISAIAH/NATE/NASH/KIDD can have that type of roster but boy when it comes to AI, hes just too hiphop for it, too concrete for it or he'll just shoot'em out the game evem tho he has 3 allnba players to go to war with

Swashcuff
10-10-2012, 02:28 PM
You must not have watched. It was a pretty common observation so give up the grandstanding. It's silly.

No trust me I watched. Allen Iverson was playing so why wouldn't I watch? By no means was A.I. the reason they lost.

First and foremost despite being talented talent doesn't trump all. Kobe had his trail, KG was getting married, Shaq were injured a bunch of the better players who missed out were worried about their security and as a result they had Jefferson playing in a reserve guard capacity. They had no spacing, poor D overall not from just Iverson so stop acting like if it was his fault on that end of the floor.

Also something to address you call me out on not watching but IIRC Iverson actually played off the ball more in those Olympics than on the ball with Marbury and Wade carrying quite a lot of the PG duties when they were on the floor. Allen Iverson was a shooting guard who played the PG and played off the ball WAY more than you actually make it seem.

KnickaBocka.44
10-10-2012, 02:33 PM
CHRONZ go somewhere and hide, and who cares what topic i come speak on, it must be legit since you recall...i dont recall you posting on anything other than you claiming KEVIN GARNETT needed help in MINNY but AI didnt in PHILLY is when i just quit taking you serious

also you post on AI and say the most dumbest **** ever and to think you're a fan of basically AI in KG/BRON, but they got bailed out by BOS/MIA ....AI almost got bailed out similar in 2000 summer to DETROIT(imagine that)

IVERSON does get to the paint like BRON with as much ease tho his degree of difficulty is majorly higher,so yea i misworded and said 'finish' but he 'gets' in the paint just as easy or easier,its very very very well documented/highlighted

a 6'8'' guy is supposed to be/live in the paint especially if he if freak of nature, now how can a 5'9'' guy attack the paint equally? and who cares if he cant finish better than a foot taller freak of nature, it still doesnt take away from his ability to get into the lane of the 'bigs'

you're a ****ing BRON homer, and saying AI had 6th man of yr in AARON MCKIE just shuts you down completely, your bball knowledge of actual 'players game' is ****ing mindblowing, when i think of 6th men of yr traditionally, i think of R.PIERCE/MCKEY, NOT MCKIE/SCHREMPF/KUKOC/MICROWAVE/TERRY/GINOBILI/CRAWFORD types, not not 3ppg scorer converted to 11.7ppg to win a 6th man of yr, that was all on the shoulders of IVERSON, they won 56 games that yr with that ****** squad and he sat out last 5 which could have led to 60wins with that talent roster

BRON also had coach of yr and most improved in VERAJOA and fringe allstar MO WILL? where did it get him again? AI had to carry same or more load as BRON but was a whole foot shorter and 100lbs lighter, but yea i get it hes overrated

You got to be smoking that good **** to say he's overrated by playing with avg ****ing talent? like no superstar/perennial allstar? hes overrated by playing with fringe dleaguers/starters? you get dumber by the post i sware

Show u he was a combo guard? like you didnt see how BROWN ran him baseline to baseline to shoot/create for his squad as SG, then O'BRIEN switch him to PG later on when IGGY/KORVER was there? well damn i guess you dont watch bball, good for you, what the **** is that when you play both backcourt positions?

of course those teams were better, thats my whole point of saying he never played with a talented roster like NASH/KIDD...CHRONZ are you on something heavy over there?

it doesnt matter if its 'building' around, its talent/allstars on the rosters BIRD/MAGIC/ISAIAH/SHAQ had, all im saying....its like if IVERSON would have been on PORTLAND/DALLAS his entire career, no excuses from me because the roster talent would be there, the gm/owner would make sure of it

its the reason why i think the nba ran off PAT CROCE, he was going to put the right players around AI, not a entire roster full of defenders

you sound so ****ing dumb thinking a 5'9'' wanted to shoot 40x a game for kicks, he wanted to win....BROWN spews this thru media channels everywhere

blaming him for his size? that was his only limitations on the court, he was in same athletic/physical ability league as BRON/SHAQ/WILT and they all basically 7ft tall..

what was his limitations? not having a stacked roster to see how far he could go annually? cause he sure wasnt limited by his actual game/ability


and thats the thing now, its labels like PG/SG

But back then it was just a guard, thats what IVERSON is.. a playmaker/creator type guard, game on line make a play happen, thats what he is

you guys are pure comedy, especially when BRON said he didnt want to have bad knees(basketball language meaning ****** roster) when he turned 30 so he took his talents to SOUTHBEACH to play with a better/championship caliber roster

So throughout this rant here you have demonstrated that:

- the NBA conpired against Iverson by forcing Croce out because you think he finally would have been the one to give Iverson what he needed (paranoid delusions)

- you're ignoring the fact that Lebron was a much more efficient player in Cleveland than Iverson ever was in Philadelphia

- you lack understanding of the term "combo guard" because Iverson was basically the epitome of that.

ink
10-10-2012, 02:36 PM
No trust me I watched. Allen Iverson was playing so why wouldn't I watch? By no means was A.I. the reason they lost.

First and foremost despite being talented talent doesn't trump all. Kobe had his trail, KG was getting married, Shaq were injured a bunch of the better players who missed out were worried about their security and as a result they had Jefferson playing in a reserve guard capacity. They had no spacing, poor D overall not from just Iverson so stop acting like if it was his fault on that end of the floor.

Also something to address you call me out on not watching but IIRC Iverson actually played off the ball more in those Olympics than on the ball with Marbury and Wade carrying quite a lot of the PG duties when they were on the floor. Allen Iverson was a shooting guard who played the PG and played off the ball WAY more than you actually make it seem.

There were lots of reasons why they lost. The AI approach is what I'm talking about. He even had his own coach, Larry Brown, and he couldn't get this team of solo artists to play together. AI is emblematic of that period. And if he's not a PG because he just doesn't facilitate well enough, then he is an undersized SG, a combo guard who simply wasn't effective enough because of size. Caught between the cracks. I'm not blaming him dude, I'm pointing out that he isn't the guy to build around, which is the topic of the thread. I don't give a damn about the usual complaints about AI's character. From what I've heard, AI is actually a great human being, people in most places he played attest to that. The problem is not personal. It is that regardless of who he is surrounded with he was not effective enough. Build an all defensive team around him and it doesn't cut it; put him on an Olympic team and it doesn't cut it. Even with the young players that Olympic team had, he still had 3 times the talent the gold and silver medalists had. So the usual cliche "help" argument falls flat. That was my point.

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 02:49 PM
INK they needed a JOHN THOMPSON type coach to utilize they strength and maximize it

like coach K has done

BROWN thought he was coaching in the actual NBA games for his regular season team and tried to throw the ball to DUNCAN and play 'his' style of slow down game instead of using JAMES/IVERSON/WADE/MELO and all that damn speed to get out and do what it do

but i get it, its IVERSONS fault because he was the elder of the squad, and he implemented the offense/defensive schemes...AI is the ****

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 02:54 PM
who cares about a big man being more efficient than a little guy when facing the same pressure

IVERSON was getting WILT/JORDAN rules and was the only scoring option ..what was he supposed to do

IVERSON had to be his teams top perimeter and interior player and he was always up there for 'points in paint' per game...

KnickaBocka.44
10-10-2012, 03:06 PM
who cares about a big man being more efficient than a little guy when facing the same pressure

IVERSON was getting WILT/JORDAN rules and was the only scoring option ..what was he supposed to do

IVERSON had to be his teams top perimeter and interior player and he was always up there for 'points in paint' per game...

1. Who cares? it's a major difference, Lebron shot closer to 50% while Iverson was closer to 40%. At that volume of shots the difference it makes is huge.

2. What was he supposed to do? Pass

3. Iverson tried to be his teams top perimeter and interior player...and it didn't get him anywhere.

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 03:17 PM
damn you're even dumber than i thought KNICKABOCKA

pass to MCKIE(3PPG)SNOW(4PPG) , those were his 'core' guys as a guard mate and wing man. or maybe he could have passed it to his allstar bigmen in MARC JACKSON or MCCULLOUGH or COLEMAN and watch them drop 25 and 15 per nite or did he not have that luxury? or did he take away from they 25 and 15 game when they came and played wit AI?

are you guys this ****ing dumb

its a huge diff when you're 6'8'' and 5'9'' facing same defensive pressure...the big man should be more efficient, unless that lil guy has better players around to alleviate the defensive pressure

do you ****ing guys understand im saying IVERSON faced JORDAN/WILT/SHAQ rules? are you guys this ****ing dumb to understand that in the NBA a lil guy was getting gameplanned like that for?

so you bring up efficiency while i bring up 5 guys guarding a 5'9'' player at the highest level, and you still bring up efficiency

lets me know you guys havent played a ****ing lick of ball your entire existence on earth

and next time before speaking on something you dont know dummy read carefully what i said to CHRONZ below

''''Show u he was a combo guard? like you didnt see how BROWN run him baseline to baseline to shoot/create for his squad as SG, then O'BRIEN switch him to PG later on when IGGY/KORVER was there? well damn i guess you dont watch bball, good for you, what the **** is that when you play both backcourt positions?'''''''''


so speaking from a actual bball player, i know what a combo guard is...i agree with you on AI,i mean you agree with me...my bad

ghettosean
10-10-2012, 03:18 PM
1. Who cares? it's a major difference, Lebron shot closer to 50% while Iverson was closer to 40%. At that volume of shots the difference it makes is huge.

2. What was he supposed to do? Pass3. Iverson tried to be his teams top perimeter and interior player...and it didn't get him anywhere.

Who exactly was he supposed to pass to Toni Kukoc or the extremly aged Dikembe Mutombo...

Give me a break :facepalm:

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 03:26 PM
i say the same **** because the truth never changes

i dont even have to speak on this no more

you guys havent played to understand or whats it like to face defense pressure or drop 30 in a game

you just repeat what others say and then use all this dumb **** that BAGWELL keep bringing up like ws%,te% and other ******** that doesnt say **** about a persons actual game/roster talent

bagwell368
10-10-2012, 03:28 PM
also you post on AI and say the most dumbest **** ever

I love this post! And to think, you edited it too... :pity: :down:

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 03:36 PM
PSD make it seem like AI froze out like 2-3 allnba perennial players on his squad

he froze out players like LYNCH/JUMAINE JONES/RAJA BELL/MCKIE/SNOW/ at they request and coaches,they knew he was the best option, how could they not they were 3&4ppg scorers respectively

thats the funniest part about this all, you are acting like he played wit go getters

you're efficiency is going to go up if you have mates to shoulder load

jus think how KOBE could play his PIPPEN like role with DIESEL then when SHAQ left he start putting up more pts, but not as efficient with DIESEL

Watch how scary CP3 will be with better roster talent and yr under his belt with it...

AI got stuck with 2 players who got 80million(40 a piece,really SNOW/MCKIE worth that?) contracts but were worth a total of maybe 10million both, and then got stuck with horrible player/contracts that killed roster trade flexibility and then went out and got even worse with 2x micro CWEBB and before that had a injured GLENN ROB who went on to win a title with SPURS via being on the roster..he couldnt play there either

all these washed up *** players he had, but all i hear is the washed up players BRON had in CAVSLAND...what a bunch of psd poppycock

but i get it, AI made all those decisiions according to psd

you guys have to be the worst analysts ever in nba sports forum history...literally

Sly Guy
10-10-2012, 03:44 PM
only if I could pair him up with a distributing SF, and a defensive PG.

Chronz
10-10-2012, 03:44 PM
his support was a team of defenders so that should make it certainn he should come out the EAST? what poppycock, it was his ability to drop 40-50pts a nite to mask the non scorers/creators they had
When you have an elite defense, you can bet thats alot better than having offensive players who do better when your not around so yea.


he never had a 25 and 10 big, or a PIPPEN like all around allstar, unless you count IGGY
So? Lots of players didn't have that




you're a ****ing BRON homer, and saying AI had 6th man of yr in AARON MCKIE just shuts you down completely, your bball knowledge of actual 'players game' is ****ing mindblowing, when i think of 6th men of yr traditionally, i think of R.PIERCE/MCKEY, NOT MCKIE/SCHREMPF/KUKOC/MICROWAVE/TERRY/GINOBILI/CRAWFORD types, not not 3ppg scorer converted to 11.7ppg to win a 6th man of yr, that was all on the shoulders of IVERSON, they won 56 games that yr with that ****** squad and he sat out last 5 which could have led to 60wins with that talent roster
Cool story bro but what you think of when someone states a FACT is irrelevant, you have to stay on topic.



BRON also had coach of yr and most improved in VERAJOA and fringe allstar MO WILL? where did it get him again?
It got him to an individual level of play/production that is far beyond anything Iverson has accomplished on his own.


You got to be smoking that good **** to say he's overrated by playing with avg ****ing talent? like no superstar/perennial allstar?
Nah, your just too dense to realize what the word overrated means.


Show u he was a combo guard? like you didnt see how BROWN run him baseline to baseline to shoot/create for his squad as SG, then O'BRIEN switch him to PG later on when IGGY/KORVER was there? well damn i guess you dont watch bball, good for you, what the **** is that when you play both backcourt positions?
Someone explain to this guy what a combo guard is.



it doesnt matter if its 'building' around, its talent/allstars on the rosters BIRD/MAGIC/ISAIAH/SHAQ had, all im saying....its like if IVERSON would have been on PORTLAND/DALLAS his entire career, no excuses from me because the roster talent would be there, the gm/owner would make sure of it
I dont believe your opinion on an imaginary scenario sorry, I try to stick to facts and stats.


blaming him for his size? that was his only limitations on the court
:clap:

LMFAO end thread

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 04:17 PM
i like this whack back and forth dialogue

when you have an elite defense its usually a perimeter lockdown(ARTEST) and a interior(J.O'NEAL), not having a undersized SG converted to shoot because all you have is nothing but defenders from top to bottom, isnt a roster of 15 players or 1?

CHRONZ quit talking ****ing stupid, having an elite defense is cool, having an elite offense is better..especially when the coach preaches DEF. the team DEF will be there...look at how KG made PIERCE try harder on DEF and PIERCE is known as OFF. player only basically

alot of the greats or HOF calibers or those who won chips had a perimeter/interior partner who could drop that 25pp and watever...maybe they didnt avg it but were very well capable, are you still on that good **** over there?

a cool story? so your facts are superior to my facts? wow wat a lady mentality

you said AI had 6thman coach of yr and blah, so i said so did BRON and i also said MCKIE is not a perennial 6th man candidate, hell he wasnt even a 1hit wonder..its funny im speaking on SNOW/MCKIE so much like they so damn nice with it....it was his core right? fact or fiction? so im not sticking to 'facts' ...its all i've stated since i posted, you taking it as fantasy, it actually happened

of course the wat ifs and different roster talent is all for nothing, but it makes for good convo being that he never had wing scorer or big to drop 25ppg+ and dominate low block..that would have been a sight to see

but he won no rings in process, got swept in FINALS, and bailed ship...so in essence you are trying to use my way of judging a player...they both won nothing with ****** rosters but they were both individually dominant

im not using efficiency or PER to rank BRON's game just like im not using it to take away from AI's ...they both had it same basically to me in CLE/PHI ..same situation, one was 6'8'' and one was 5'9''

only diff is when SNOW said that playing with IVERSON he had a job, playing with BRON he didnt have no job because BRON dominated the ball...AI played off it way more than you dummies seem to have noticed

being on psd i've come to appreciate players being overrated...AI was vastly underrated, no big medias have him up there

didnt you see on TNT when SMITH/WEBBER and them damn near cried cause he didnt make an alldecade team, his peers know the biz, and those who have played the game pretty much they entire lives, so i say he is vastly underrated...proofs in the pudding

explain to me what 'your' definition of a combo guard is...i mean its a center position, then either small or power forward, then you left with point guard and shooting guard, now please explain to me what a combo guard is cause im not quite sure..im thinking its a mix between the water boy and PER statsmen?


so since you dont want to believe me on this imaginary scenario ..then i'll make it 10000000000x easier and say look at his roster when BROWN took over and then left, now it cant get any more 'real' than right..his actual mates you know MCKIE/SNOW who i keep mentioning, the allnba players he played with right? now go and compare rosters with PORTLAND/DALLAS with AI's tenure in PHI. you amaze me with every post


You said his limitations right? so i asked and thats your reply

he could literally do anything he wanted on the court



congrats psd chronz

KnickaBocka.44
10-10-2012, 04:20 PM
damn you're even dumber than i thought KNICKABOCKA

pass to MCKIE(3PPG)SNOW(4PPG) , those were his 'core' guys as a guard mate and wing man. or maybe he could have passed it to his allstar bigmen in MARC JACKSON or MCCULLOUGH or COLEMAN and watch them drop 25 and 15 per nite or did he not have that luxury? or did he take away from they 25 and 15 game when they came and played wit AI?

are you guys this ****ing dumb

its a huge diff when you're 6'8'' and 5'9'' facing same defensive pressure...the big man should be more efficient, unless that lil guy has better players around to alleviate the defensive pressure

do you ****ing guys understand im saying IVERSON faced JORDAN/WILT/SHAQ rules? are you guys this ****ing dumb to understand that in the NBA a lil guy was getting gameplanned like that for?

so you bring up efficiency while i bring up 5 guys guarding a 5'9'' player at the highest level, and you still bring up efficiency

lets me know you guys havent played a ****ing lick of ball your entire existence on earth

and next time before speaking on something you dont know dummy read carefully what i said to CHRONZ below

''''Show u he was a combo guard? like you didnt see how BROWN run him baseline to baseline to shoot/create for his squad as SG, then O'BRIEN switch him to PG later on when IGGY/KORVER was there? well damn i guess you dont watch bball, good for you, what the **** is that when you play both backcourt positions?'''''''''


so speaking from a actual bball player, i know what a combo guard is...i agree with you on AI,i mean you agree with me...my bad

First of all since you brought it up, I did play ball. Difference between you and I is that I also got an education.

Secondly- the stats you mention for his supporting cast aren't even accurate.

Thirdly- Don't bring that little guy argument up because it doesn't hold any weight. He played by the same rules as everyone else. If he is as great a player as you say he is then he should be able to adapt but throughout his career it was abundantly clear that was not something he was willing to do.

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 04:27 PM
then act like it, education dont mean much if you on here running ya dick suckers

2nd your education is very flawed cause i didnt mention they actual numbers i said people act like he inherited a 25ppg and 15rpg big man and it wasnt that way at all

and tell me what stats did i mention? because im pretty sure they'd all be from a defensive standpoint..i keep saying he had a team full of defenders, all you guys keep saying the same thing

only big diff is i keep saying he had to shoot 40x a game, and you guys keep acting like he had 2-3allstar players with him and he keeps chucking away..thats the diff ,yall only see the diff. on defense, and acting like he froze out scorers on the other end



3rd - he did adjust dummy, he switched from PG to SG for betterment of the squad, go ask HILL/MCKIE/LYNCH/SNOW if you want proof

your education is very ******, but i blame the system not you

003
10-10-2012, 04:39 PM
So far all you are offering is opinions.

TS%: Rose .550 > .518

eFG%: Rose .485 > .447

3PT: Rose: .332 > .320

FT%: Rose .858 > .814

FG%: Rose .445 > .420

Ast: Rose 7.7 > 4.6

Reb: Rose 4.1 => 3.8

Stl: Iverson 2.5 > 1.0

Tov: Iverson 3.3 => 3.4

WS/48: Rose .208 > .190

WS Rose: 13.1 > 11.8

Playoff WS/48: Rose .165 > .130

Figure out all the misses AI had vs if he shot at Rose's percentage, then figure out what the o-rebounding rate of 76'ers vs the d-rebounding rate of the other teams and all of those are effectively turnovers.

Rose had more assists, a bit more rebounding and less steals (but better D rates than Iverson).

So, how was Iverson better in his MVP season then Rose? Numbers don't bear that out. Advanced stats like WS and WS/48 have Rose > Iverson.

Iverson was a volume shooter, that hurts your value as a player. He never made it into the top 8 in NBA. Outside of steal % and 3 years in the top 10 in ast%, his name is absent from any leader boards for percentages - very notable for his shooting. Just counting stats (2 times #1 in turnovers - cancels out his 2 times leading the league in steals). Lots of high ranks for FG taken, but not so much for FG made.

Response?

This is exactly why I have a problem with all these stats. It doesn't address the supporting cast Iverson was working with vs Rose's supporting cast. Regardless I'm over this argument and just agree to disagree with you. Ive seen both of them play with my own eyes. They played in different eras are were both amazing players to watch that I'd build my team around assuming Jordan or Pippen aren't available.

KnickaBocka.44
10-10-2012, 04:48 PM
then act like it, education dont mean much if you on here running ya dick suckers

2nd your education is very flawed cause i didnt mention they actual numbers i said people act like he inherited a 25ppg and 15rpg big man and it wasnt that way at all

and tell me what stats did i mention? because im pretty sure they'd all be from a defensive standpoint..i keep saying he had a team full of defenders, all you guys keep saying the same thing

only big diff is i keep saying he had to shoot 40x a game, and you guys keep acting like he had 2-3allstar players with him and he keeps chucking away..thats the diff ,yall only see the diff. on defense, and acting like he froze out scorers on the other end



3rd - he did adjust dummy, he switched from PG to SG for betterment of the squad, go ask HILL/MCKIE/LYNCH/SNOW if you want proof

your education is very ******, but i blame the system not you

You are a lost cause. If Iverson wouldn't have been so focused on getting his points other players could have been more productive. Here is just one season for evidence. I would provide more evidence but I have a reason you are just going to reply with a bunch of non-sense, just for kicks though:

In 01-02 Iverson put up his 2nd worst shooting % (39.8% on nearly 28 shots per game :puke: ) and had 5 other players who averaged double figures in points and they all shot a better percentage than he did. That qualifies as decent help in my opinion.

That same season he averaged 5.5 assist and 4 turnovers :ouch:

If any other player would have done this, not named Iverson, you wouldn't even waste your time defending him.

And as for your argument of him moving to PG "to better the squad" it didn't change a thing because it didn't make him play any differently, he still took his 23-25 shots on poor percentages. The only real reason he moved to PG is because he was too small to defend SG's.

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 04:52 PM
on point 003


there BAGWELL go with this dumb pct% **** again

dumbest **** i ever heard is he wasnt never top 8 but finished runner up to SHAQ in MVP in 2000(only player to get a vote) and then beat out DUNCAN/SHAQ for 2001 MVP, and JORDAN said in his 96 rookie that AI reminded him of himself playing allout/fast/reckless/heart

and he dropped basically what ROSE put up his MVP season in his rookie yr 96,individually, not team wise

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 05:07 PM
Nah im a rebel with a cause

Once again KNICKABOCKA i blame the system, and dont ever mention anything about any education ever again...you shame the education 'system'

It shows you how much even more he had to carry ...now are you saying like 10-12ppg scorers or are we talking 20-25ppg balance..ala WIZARDS with ARENAS/BUTLER/HUGHES?

i mean c'mon man you said you play ball so how in the **** would HARPRING/MCKIE/superwashed up COLEMAN/DEKE going to scare any opposing def/coach to gameplan for? thats the point you're missing coming from a 'educated' bball player

when has any of those players besides a predraft/rookie in shape COLEMAN showed any promise of being a 'go to' guy? when was any offense ran thru them exclusively? let me know when you find that documentation since you dont have time to find out other ****

you do understand that if he had a supreme wing and supreme interior man he wouldnt have taken those 28shots per game right?

but i guess he should have let HARPRING/MCKIE/DEKE do something that they never have done before...offense ran thru them and defense gameplanning for they arsenal attack....the system is very upset at you right now

his pct and turnovers are proof of how much load he had to carry

and once again your education if flawed because i said he switched from PG to SG, not the other way around dummy

and since you play ball, how in the **** are you overrating HARPRING/MCKIE/COLEMAN as actual gamechanging players? like damn it done came to that, super overrating individual players because they played with IVERSON? only on psd

KnickaBocka.44
10-10-2012, 05:28 PM
Nah im a rebel with a cause

Once again KNICKABOCKA i blame the system, and dont ever mention anything about any education ever again...you shame the education 'system'

It shows you how much even more he had to carry ...now are you saying like 10-12ppg scorers or are we talking 20-25ppg balance..ala WIZARDS with ARENAS/BUTLER/HUGHES?

i mean c'mon man you said you play ball so how in the **** would HARPRING/MCKIE/superwashed up COLEMAN/DEKE going to scare any opposing def/coach to gameplan for? thats the point you're missing coming from a 'educated' bball player

when has any of those players besides a predraft/rookie in shape COLEMAN showed any promise of being a 'go to' guy? when was any offense ran thru them exclusively? let me know when you find that documentation since you dont have time to find out other ****

you do understand that if he had a supreme wing and supreme interior man he wouldnt have taken those 28shots per game right?

but i guess he should have let HARPRING/MCKIE/DEKE do something that they never have done before...offense ran thru them and defense gameplanning for they arsenal attack....the system is very upset at you right now

his pct and turnovers are proof of how much load he had to carry

and once again your education if flawed because i said he switched from PG to SG, not the other way around dummy


All I can do is :facepalm: you. You're complete ineptitude in formulating a legitimate argument on tihs topic is astonishing to me.

You say he needs a "supreme wing and supreme post player". If he needs that much then why is he so great? The question in this thread is whether or not you would build around Iverson as the best player, not prime Iverson and 2 other all-stars.

You said he switched from SG to PG to benefit the team, don't try and backtrack now.

Iverson is the go to guy on the team, he doesn't need ANOTHER go to guy.

28 shots per game at that kind of horrid efficiency is NEVER necessary no matter how bad your team is. No one ever said that the offense should have run through those other guys. I did say that it is logical to think they would have produced more if they were given more opportunities instead of having to watch Iverson chuck up 28 shots per game and miss 17 of them.

Since Iverson was being gameplanned for so much and other teams were running multiple players at him, then on his drives to the basket you know someone else was open. Why not make the extra pass? He had to know that they were all shooting the ball at a better rate than he was that year.

I'm done debating this with you because you have no evidence in any of your arguments, they are hardly even discernable and they lack even the slightest bit of logic and/or reason.

3RDASYSTEM
10-10-2012, 05:44 PM
the thing about that pct% **** BAGWELL keep mentioning is dumb as hell

like for instance ROSE just developed or developing a 3pt shot

he took like a total of 10 his rookie yr

IVERSON hit i wanna say 100 3's his rookie yr, so quit giving me that pct ********

AI had money pullup,3pt shot(if given time running from baseline to baseline) and was unstoppable in open/half court in any system rather it be slowdown halfcourt grind BROWN or uptemp in KARL or back to the slow/1k sets ran in DETROIT

so cut it out with that pct ****, players player, statsmen keep stats

congrats to the psd statsmen on here, now go play an actual game