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View Full Version : Article: You think Kobe is selfish, canít mesh with Nash. He thinks youíre dumb.



JordansBulls
10-05-2012, 10:49 PM
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/02/you-think-kobe-is-selfish-cant-mesh-with-nash-he-thinks-youre-dumb/



Here is what Kobe said on the Mason and Ireland Show on ESPN 710 radio in Los Angeles (via Sports Radio Interviews).


ďHereís the thing: Some people are just very, very dumb. I keep hearing it from some people that I just want to score and that other stuff. Nobody has won more championships than me in my entire generation. Iíve got five of them. You canít be selfish and win one championship, let alone five. That argument should be in the coffin by now. I donít like having the ball.Ē

ThunderousDemon
10-05-2012, 11:25 PM
"I donít like having the ball."

:rolleyes:

b@llhog24
10-05-2012, 11:29 PM
"I donít like having the ball."

:rolleyes:

:laugh2:

PurpleJesus
10-05-2012, 11:31 PM
Kobe loves having the ball, that is what has made him great, and what has recently brought him criticism.

LAKERMANIA
10-05-2012, 11:33 PM
Man I think PSD is going to really miss Kobe when he retires :laugh2:

amos1er
10-05-2012, 11:36 PM
I was with him up until the "I don't like having the ball" comment. Every superstar likes having the ball. I don't know why he would have said that. Probly just got too worked up at the end of his rant. Everything else I agree with though. If he truly was selfish, he wouldn't have five championships. Hard to argue that...though I'm sure many on here will try.

PurpleJesus
10-05-2012, 11:37 PM
Man I think PSD is going to really miss Kobe when he retires :laugh2:

naw, we will still have Lebron, and Rose.

jerellh528
10-05-2012, 11:38 PM
Man I think PSD is going to really miss Kobe when he retires :laugh2:

Not just PSD, the NBA in general. He is a captivating once in a generation type player.

LakersMaster24
10-06-2012, 12:03 AM
Oh Kobe :laugh2:

Zefflin
10-06-2012, 12:06 AM
Not just PSD, the NBA in general. He is a captivating once in a generation type player.

:clap:

Eg714
10-06-2012, 12:12 AM
I think what he meant to say was he doesn't like being the main facilitator the whole game. He loves having the ball when he scores.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-06-2012, 12:13 AM
:laugh2:

I could agree with the other stuff but him saying he doesn't like having the ball?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-06-2012, 12:23 AM
"I don't like having the ball" = I don't want to handle the ball, dribble it up the court, and have to set up the offense. Just let me get to my sweet spots and I'll let it fly.

Chacarron
10-06-2012, 01:29 AM
Captain Colby! :clap:

Hellcrooner
10-06-2012, 01:35 AM
I dont like the ball but the ball likes me.....:rolleyes:

JNA17
10-06-2012, 01:36 AM
He didn't mean he didn't like having the ball at all. He just doesn't like having to dribble the ball up the court and playing hero ball 24/7 every game.

At least, that's what I think he meant.

Everything else, pretty much spot on. People are in for a bring surprise on what a Kobe and Nash back court is really capable of.

Avenged
10-06-2012, 02:21 AM
Who cares what they say, Kobe! Prove em wrong AGAIN :D

C-Style
10-06-2012, 02:28 AM
I dont like having the ball but i enjoy shooting the ball

DODGERS&LAKERS
10-06-2012, 02:31 AM
That's awesome lol. "I don't like having the ball" LMAO

Knowledge
10-06-2012, 02:54 AM
Its a fair criticism whether he likes it or not. That doesn't take away from his greatness, its just a honest evaluation of his game at times.

As far as championships go, it helps when you play on the most talented teams too. I mean since 2000, the Lakers have probably been favorites to reach or win the championship at least 8 times.

Whenever LA hasn't won, people look at Kobe, because that what happens when you are the leader of a great team.

MetroMan
10-06-2012, 02:55 AM
MetroMan approves this message

Ebbs
10-06-2012, 03:21 AM
Literally almost had me til "I don't like having the ball!" :laugh:

Green Storm
10-06-2012, 03:28 AM
"I don't like having the ball"

Pure Gold!!!

naps
10-06-2012, 03:54 AM
"I don't like having the ball"--Kobe. :laugh2:

Hall of Shame worthy statement. If there was one HOS, this statement would be at the very top of the list.

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 10:12 AM
Kobe : Nobody has won more championships than me in my entire generation.

Championships as the undisputed #1 / engine of a team.

Shaq = 3
Duncan = 3
Wade = 2 (I give him his 2011 Ring that Lebron stole from him)
Lebron = 1
Dirk = 1
Kobe = 1

Also in regards to Kobe saying you cant win and be selfish.

When you are playing next to Peak Shaq or playing on a stacked team you can get away with some selfishness and still end up winning.
That doesn't mean its whats best for the team though or something that should be ignored.
You can do stupid and negative things even while winning due to excellent circumstances.

In years like 2003 and 2004 Kobe's selfishness arguably cost teams a chance to win the Championship.
In years like 2008 and 2012 his selfishness arguably cost teams a chance at attaining superior success and arguably contending.

Kobe has 5 Championships because he is by far the luckiest player ever in terms of career circumstances and supporting casts.
For a Top 10 All-Time player to only have 5 Rings with such circumstances is imo not overly impressive.

Give Bird, Lebron, Magic, Kareem or any other Top 10 player the kind of supporting casts and circumstances he had and they'd probably be rivaling Bill Russell in terms of Rings.

So yes Kobe you are a great player but you are also selfish at times and you do care about your ppg.
Liar.

Kobe is so arrogant.

ink
10-06-2012, 10:31 AM
"I don't like having the ball" = I don't want to handle the ball, dribble it up the court, and have to set up the offense. Just let me get to my sweet spots and I'll let it fly.

Exactly.

Chronz
10-06-2012, 10:35 AM
I think hes trying to say he doesn't like handling the ball, just shooting it. But hes wrong about not winning while being selfish. Lots of selfish players have won chips.

ink
10-06-2012, 10:37 AM
Kobe : Nobody has won more championships than me in my entire generation.

Championships as the undisputed #1 / engine of a team.

Shaq = 3
Duncan = 3
Wade = 2 (I give him his 2011 Ring that Lebron stole from him)
Lebron = 1
Dirk = 1
Kobe = 1

Also in regards to Kobe saying you cant win and be selfish.

When you are playing next to Peak Shaq or playing on a stacked team you can get away with some selfishness and still end up winning.
That doesn't mean its whats best for the team though or something that should be ignored.
You can do stupid and negative things even while winning due to excellent circumstances.

In years like 2003 and 2004 Kobe's selfishness arguably cost teams a chance to win the Championship.
In years like 2008 and 2012 his selfishness arguably cost teams a chance at attaining superior success and arguably contending.

Kobe has 5 Championships because he is by far the luckiest player ever in terms of career circumstances and supporting casts.
For a Top 10 All-Time player to only have 5 Rings with such circumstances is imo not overly impressive.

Give Bird, Lebron, Magic, Kareem or any other Top 10 player the kind of supporting casts and circumstances he had and they'd probably be rivaling Bill Russell in terms of Rings.

So yes Kobe you are a great player but you are also selfish at times and you do care about your ppg.
Liar.

Kobe is so arrogant.

You obviously know your stuff but your bias is so strong you can't even see it yourself. Magic and Kareem weren't exactly on teams with no talent. They just played in an era with one fierce, formidable opponent, the Celtics. Jordan also wouldn't have had 6 rings if it weren't for the fact that the Bulls had no absolutely formidable opponent themselves. So that argument is pretty weak.

Give credit where it's due. And let's not go off topic disagreeing and hypothesizing about who would win how many rings in what era. Kobe has 5, like it or not. It's NOT the point of the thread.

All he's saying is that he doesn't want to be the facilitator. Big surprise, he's a scorer, not a playmaker.

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 10:41 AM
Give credit where it's due. And let's not go off topic disagreeing and hypothesizing about who would win how many rings in what era. Kobe has 5, like it or not. It's NOT the point of the thread.

All he's saying is that he doesn't want to be the facilitator. Big surprise, he's a scorer, not a playmaker.

I give Kobe credit (he is in my Top 10) I just hate the arrogance in his statement and lack of appreciation he shows with it.

He is very arrogant and never shows any humility.

Like... I won 5 rings so I am the greatest and no one can question what I do on the court ignoring the fact that his circumstances and supporting casts were also probably the best of his generation by far and that he wasn't exactly the head honcho on some of his Championship teams.

Aleksandar
10-06-2012, 10:44 AM
I think it's not up to him anyway, Steve Nash will command the games, and make everyone play the roles they are supposed to.

ink
10-06-2012, 10:47 AM
I give Kobe credit (he is in my Top 10) I just hate the arrogance in his statement and lack of appreciation he shows with it.

He is very arrogant and never shows any humility.

Like... I won 5 rings so I am the greatest and no one can question what I do on the court ignoring the fact that his circumstances and supporting casts were also probably the best of his generation by far and that he wasn't exactly the head honcho on some of his Championship teams.

And you're never going to change that.

KnicksorBust
10-06-2012, 10:53 AM
"I don't like having the ball" = I don't want to handle the ball, dribble it up the court, and have to set up the offense. Just let me get to my sweet spots and I'll let it fly.

Bingo. Everybody else can giggle but was it really that hard to translate the real meaning of what he said?

Nash is a BLESSING for Kobe. First of all, these are two of the highest IQ players in NBA History. Yes history. If a Bird and past his prime Walton can have basketball telepathy than I see no reason why this duo won't be able to do the same thing. I foresee easy baskets in Kobe's future. His effeciency will improve and it's someone who in NO WAY challenges Kobe's alpha dog status. I couldn't have imagined a better PG for him at this point in his career.

netsgiantsyanks
10-06-2012, 10:54 AM
that last statement is getting taken WAY out of context.

JasonJohnHorn
10-06-2012, 11:17 AM
This sounds very different than the Kobe who, just this past season, was going on about how he was a scorer, and his job is to score the ball, so he needs to be taking a lot of shots. Now he doesn't like having the ball? Hmmm....

We'll see who the dumb ones are when the season by the trade deadline.

ink
10-06-2012, 11:28 AM
This sounds very different than the Kobe who, just this past season, was going on about how he was a scorer, and his job is to score the ball, so he needs to be taking a lot of shots. Now he doesn't like having the ball? Hmmm....

We'll see who the dumb ones are when the season by the trade deadline.

Shooting and handling are two different things. He was talking about handling. Obviously one of the best scorers in league history wants the ball to score with. He's just relieved not to have to set up the offence any more. That's why Nash is there.

He's saying that people are dumb if they think he doesn't see that or understand how the ball is going to flow now that he has an elite PG beside him. He's a very high IQ player. Has anyone ever seen him have a problem sharing the ball on the Olympic team? Pretty obvious he can accept whatever role he's given when he's playing with players of his own calibre.

xxplayerxx23
10-06-2012, 11:32 AM
Kobe has also had amazing talent around him. I think timmy D was the best of his 2000s:p

beasted86
10-06-2012, 11:44 AM
Nice for Kobe to think optimistically but he's wrong. He's quite selfish and most would agree he has won championships despite his selfishness, not because he isn't selfish.

M.Bibby2.0
10-06-2012, 12:01 PM
"Some people are just very, very dumb"

Kobe, did you even finish high-school?

Showtime Steve
10-06-2012, 12:15 PM
Ha ha so basically he says its my team, but i dont want the ball. Lmao gotta love the kob'ster!

beliges
10-06-2012, 12:27 PM
The man does have a point. Nobody has won more than he has during his era and generation. Cant really argue against that. One can call him all the names they want and one can diminish all his accomplishments all they want, but at the end of the day, hes dominated his era and generation more than any other player. And thats extremely remarkable when you consider some of the all-time greats that played during this era. KG, Shaq, Duncan. Two of those 3 are top 10 players.

ink
10-06-2012, 12:44 PM
Nice for Kobe to think optimistically but he's wrong. He's quite selfish and most would agree he has won championships despite his selfishness, not because he isn't selfish.

Never thought I'd find myself defending Kobe Bryant but this post is ludicrous, based on nothing but some vague concept of "selfishness". He's had every offence designed around him and the coaches have consistently put the ball in his hands as the prime scorer, and the most sophisticated comment some people can come up with is to use the word "selfish" three times in the same sentence to make their point. Look, I can reason like that too: "he's the greatest because he wins championships as the greatest, not because he isn't the greatest". lol.

LAKERMANIA
10-06-2012, 12:52 PM
Nice for Kobe to think optimistically but he's wrong. He's quite selfish and most would agree he has won championships despite his selfishness, not because he isn't selfish.

Explain... :eyebrow:

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 12:59 PM
Explain... :eyebrow:

What he is trying to say that Kobe despite frequently playing selfishly and not utilizing his supporting players smartly still won due to the strength of his supporting casts and because of some excellent circumstances mixed in with some luck here and there.

If Kobe had played smarter and not worried about his ppg, role, image, etc... he probably would have been significantly more successful at certain points in his career.

JesusWears24
10-06-2012, 01:12 PM
Most people on here take Kobe's greatness for granted. He is one of the last players from the generation of basketball that made this sport great. All the people that bash him on here will regret it when he retires from the NBA. A true warrior, a type we havent seen since Jordan.

beasted86
10-06-2012, 01:35 PM
Explain... :eyebrow:

Kobe has won championships because he is a great player and has played on some great teams, period.

But the guy is a chucker at heart, he has made a career out of taking overly difficult shots, but what makes him a great player is he makes a lot of those. But I'd like just a few Kobe fans to think about this next comment I'm going to make and consider it carefully... Do you think there is any reason or logic behind the fact that nearly every elite perimeter player we even discuss as top 15 all time has shot 50% in a season except for Kobe?

Please consider that comment without hate or bias. Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Erving, West, Wade, etc, etc... All these guys have shot 50% in a season, yet Kobe hasn't. I say this without looking, but I'd bet all those guys I just mentioned have a higher career FG% than Kobe.

I'm not saying Kobe isn't a great player, but the truth is he is sort of a chucker, and IMO that makes him selfish.

JordansBulls
10-06-2012, 01:36 PM
I wouldnt say dumbest, its just that probably around 80% are band wagoners who im guessing became fans around July 2010.....

This is true.

ink
10-06-2012, 01:49 PM
Wonder if those that call him selfish realize that his coaches had something to do with his usage.

Come on, seriously folks, Phil Jackson is one of the league's greatest all-time coaches. If he didn't want Kobe to be a "chucker" it would have been a bigger issue than it ever was. The Lakers offence has run through him, and especially in the triangle system, since 2004.

Attributing it to "selfishness" is willful ignorance of the systems the team was running.

And that's coming from someone who thinks Kobe has been the reigning prick of the NBA.

Doesn't mean he's selfish though. That's just simplistic thinking.

SwatTeam
10-06-2012, 02:12 PM
Phil Jackson:
Oh, they're— they're using LeBron every possible way they can. He's such a great player. I still think his game is gonna grow. I still think it's gonna grow. But he was like Scottie Pippen was to the Bulls. He's maybe a pass first and shoot second player. Whereas, you know, Michael or Kobe are like, "I'm gonna shoot this ball." Every time they get the ball, they're looking to score. LeBron's not like that. And I love that about him. But he also, when he goes after scoring, he's also terrific. You want a player that can do both. I tried to get Kobe to do both for numbers of years, and he could. But his first instinct is to beat the guy that's in front of him.

Jackson 2 years ago:
"Kobe had to screw up the game and start energizing the team by going one-on-one," Jackson said. "That takes the rest of the guys out and as a consequence, that didn't bring us back in."

I have respect for Kobe's game. Dude is a top 10 player of all time. But to say that he isn't selfish at times on the court is ridiculous. Even Phil thinks he was at times. I'll take Phil's opinions over anyone elses here.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-06-2012, 02:18 PM
I give Kobe credit (he is in my Top 10) I just hate the arrogance in his statement and lack of appreciation he shows with it.

He is very arrogant and never shows any humility.

Like... I won 5 rings so I am the greatest and no one can question what I do on the court ignoring the fact that his circumstances and supporting casts were also probably the best of his generation by far and that he wasn't exactly the head honcho on some of his Championship teams.

How many players can say that they won championships, were blamed for breaking up a dynasty, went into the lottery, and with the addition of 1 unproven star, got back to the mountain top and stayed there.


Do you realize how many players who hit ground zero (either with their team or individually) can't even get back lose to the mountaintop. And he you have this guy that yes (with the addition of Pau, a star who hadn't won anything and was never really respected in the league as a top 10 player) came and under Kobe's watch, the team was molded back into perennial championship contenders?


90% of the league and fanbase doubted that Kobe could be the head honcho of a championship team, but he proved everyone wrong.

beasted86
10-06-2012, 02:21 PM
Phil Jackson:
Oh, they'reó they're using LeBron every possible way they can. He's such a great player. I still think his game is gonna grow. I still think it's gonna grow. But he was like Scottie Pippen was to the Bulls. He's maybe a pass first and shoot second player. Whereas, you know, Michael or Kobe are like, "I'm gonna shoot this ball." Every time they get the ball, they're looking to score. LeBron's not like that. And I love that about him. But he also, when he goes after scoring, he's also terrific. You want a player that can do both. I tried to get Kobe to do both for numbers of years, and he could. But his first instinct is to beat the guy that's in front of him.

Jackson 2 years ago:
"Kobe had to screw up the game and start energizing the team by going one-on-one," Jackson said. "That takes the rest of the guys out and as a consequence, that didn't bring us back in."

I have respect for Kobe's game. Dude is a top 10 player of all time. But to say that he isn't selfish at times on the court is ridiculous. Even Phil thinks he was at times. I'll take Phil's opinions over anyone elses here.

Even more great fact based reasoning.

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 02:21 PM
Come on, seriously folks, Phil Jackson is one of the league's greatest all-time coaches. If he didn't want Kobe to be a "chucker" it would have been a bigger issue than it ever was.
It was a pretty huge issue bro.

Kobe's unwillingness to accept his role in the offense was the main reason behind the feud between him and Shaq.

When Phil and Shaq both asked him to accept his role and to stop playing outside of the offense he cut them out mentally which destroyed team chemistry and adopted the *f everyone* mentality.

Phil constantly had issues reigning Kobe in and getting him to accept his role in the offense throughout the 00's and the issues peaked around 03 and 04.

He wanted the offense ran through Shaq with Kobe playing a supporting role and Kobe wanted to score more and run the offense through him and dictate everything.

While I agree with many of the things you said acting like Phil didn't have an issue with how Kobe played back in the early 00's is clearly not true.

Phil repeatably criticized his play and called him uncoachable.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-06-2012, 02:23 PM
Kobe has won championships because he is a great player and has played on some great teams, period.

But the guy is a chucker at heart, he has made a career out of taking overly difficult shots, but what makes him a great player is he makes a lot of those. But I'd like just a few Kobe fans to think about this next comment I'm going to make and consider it carefully... Do you think there is any reason or logic behind the fact that nearly every elite perimeter player we even discuss as top 15 all time has shot 50% in a season except for Kobe?

Please consider that comment without hate or bias. Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Erving, West, Wade, etc, etc... All these guys have shot 50% in a season, yet Kobe hasn't. I say this without looking, but I'd bet all those guys I just mentioned have a higher career FG% than Kobe.

I'm not saying Kobe isn't a great player, but the truth is he is sort of a chucker, and IMO that makes him selfish.

I would make the argument that basically all of those guys never suffered the hand, wrist and finger injuries that Kobe ever did, and that if they did, they would probably sit out for 2-3 weeks, but Kobe is that ONE GUY that can and will play through any injuries.



People talk about MJ's flu game, fine. But Kobe in his 17 yrs in the association has played through ever single possible injury that deal with actually basketball playing stuff, like shooting the ball with jackuped fingers, running the floor with jacked up knees for 40+ minutes a game while being 15-16 yrs in the association and 50K+ minutes of professional basketball.


The guy has never cared about shooting percentages, he'll just put these uncomfortable pads on his fingers and still shoot the hell out of the ball, and mid-season, he'll work on altering his shooting stroke.


These other fellas would be scared of ruining their percentages and would probably sit out, but Kobe is not a human and he doesn't care about these gaudy percentages and PER and TS% and Win Shares and all that crap that you stat whores love to bring up.


The only games Kobe has sat out is if Phil or anyone else up high in the organization berated him and demanded he not play. Kobe is as stubborn as you'll get.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-06-2012, 02:27 PM
It was a pretty huge issue bro.

Kobe's unwillingness to accept his role in the offense was the main reason behind the feud between him and Shaq.

When Phil and Shaq both asked him to accept his role and to stop playing outside of the offense he cut them out mentally which destroyed team chemistry and adopted the *f everyone* mentality.

Phil constantly had issues reigning Kobe in and getting him to accept his role in the offense throughout the 00's and the issues peaked around 03 and 04.

He wanted the offense ran through Shaq with Kobe playing a supporting role and Kobe wanted to score more and run the offense through him and dictate everything.

While I agree with many of the things you said acting like Phil didn't have an issue with how Kobe played back in the early 00's is clearly not true.

Phil repeatably criticized his play and called him uncoachable.

WRONG!! Even Kobe said that he was a natural born scorer but for the betterment of the team learned how to be a facilitator, which he was fine with as long as he kept winning championships for the Lakers organization.



His displeasure was the fact that he was improving and working on every single summer and his game was getting so much more fluid and effective, that despite that, Phil would center the entire offense around an injury prone, fat, lazy, out of shape, and total opposite of Kobe (in terms of working hard and stayin in tip top shape) in Shaq. Add to the fact that Shaq was telling all his peeps on the Laker teams and around the league that he was the CEO and that Kobe wouldn't win **** without him and made Kobe feel like crap, that's when things went south.



Phil saw how Shaq was "healing on company time" and so majority of that 02-03 season, Phil was going back to the MJ playbook of the CHicago Triangle to feature Kobe in the triangle more, but it just didn't work out because Shaq would make statements with "Don't feed me the ball in the paint, then don't expect me to protect the rim at the other end".


Do you forget these little instances or do you really not know?

LakersSaintsLSU
10-06-2012, 02:31 PM
"I don't like having the ball" = I don't want to handle the ball, dribble it up the court, and have to set up the offense. Just let me get to my sweet spots and I'll let it fly.

Some guys don't have the common sense to tell what from what...those kobe-hater shades they wear is what make's them Very,very dumb!!!

LakersSaintsLSU
10-06-2012, 02:32 PM
i wouldnt say dumbest, its just that probably around 90% are band wagoners who im guessing became fans around july 2010.....

fixed

LakersSaintsLSU
10-06-2012, 02:34 PM
WRONG!! Even Kobe said that he was a natural born scorer but for the betterment of the team learned how to be a facilitator, which he was fine with as long as he kept winning championships for the Lakers organization.



His displeasure was the fact that he was improving and working on every single summer and his game was getting so much more fluid and effective, that despite that, Phil would center the entire offense around an injury prone, fat, lazy, out of shape, and total opposite of Kobe (in terms of working hard and stayin in tip top shape) in Shaq. Add to the fact that Shaq was telling all his peeps on the Laker teams and around the league that he was the CEO and that Kobe wouldn't win **** without him and made Kobe feel like crap, that's when things went south.



Phil saw how Shaq was "healing on company time" and so majority of that 02-03 season, Phil was going back to the MJ playbook of the CHicago Triangle to feature Kobe in the triangle more, but it just didn't work out because Shaq would make statements with "Don't feed me the ball in the paint, then don't expect me to protect the rim at the other end".


Do you forget these little instances or do you really not know?

They don't forget there just VERY VERY DUMB

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-06-2012, 02:34 PM
They don't forget there just VERY VERY DUMB

Dude, I honestly do think this sums it up pretty well. Thanks. :clap:

LakersSaintsLSU
10-06-2012, 02:36 PM
It was a pretty huge issue bro.

Kobe's unwillingness to accept his role in the offense was the main reason behind the feud between him and Shaq.

When Phil and Shaq both asked him to accept his role and to stop playing outside of the offense he cut them out mentally which destroyed team chemistry and adopted the *f everyone* mentality.

Phil constantly had issues reigning Kobe in and getting him to accept his role in the offense throughout the 00's and the issues peaked around 03 and 04.

He wanted the offense ran through Shaq with Kobe playing a supporting role and Kobe wanted to score more and run the offense through him and dictate everything.

While I agree with many of the things you said acting like Phil didn't have an issue with how Kobe played back in the early 00's is clearly not true.

Phil repeatably criticized his play and called him uncoachable.

OK im done dude. Did you just use the STAT card? so im guessing since A.I. averaged more ppg in his career than kobe that makes him better right?? i mean cmon stat men am i right? this post deserves a SUPER DELUXE :facepalm:

LakersSaintsLSU
10-06-2012, 02:37 PM
Dude, I honestly do think this sums it up pretty well. Thanks. :clap:

:cheers:

Bruno
10-06-2012, 02:38 PM
he was either being sarcastic, or he was referring to the fact that he prefers to not quarterback, if someone else is available to do so.

LakersSaintsLSU
10-06-2012, 02:40 PM
he was either being sarcastic, or he was referring to the fact that he prefers to not quarterback, if someone else is available to do so.

Ding Ding Ding we have a WINNER,he actually used that one thing that 80 percent of psders lack...COMMON SENSE

Bruno
10-06-2012, 02:40 PM
It was a pretty huge issue bro.

Kobe's unwillingness to accept his role in the offense was the main reason behind the feud between him and Shaq.

When Phil and Shaq both asked him to accept his role and to stop playing outside of the offense he cut them out mentally which destroyed team chemistry and adopted the *f everyone* mentality.

Phil constantly had issues reigning Kobe in and getting him to accept his role in the offense throughout the 00's and the issues peaked around 03 and 04.

He wanted the offense ran through Shaq with Kobe playing a supporting role and Kobe wanted to score more and run the offense through him and dictate everything.

While I agree with many of the things you said acting like Phil didn't have an issue with how Kobe played back in the early 00's is clearly not true.

Phil repeatably criticized his play and called him uncoachable.

until he came back...

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 02:40 PM
WRONG!! Even Kobe said that he was a natural born scorer but for the betterment of the team learned how to be a facilitator, which he was fine with as long as he kept winning championships for the Lakers organization.

His displeasure was the fact that he was improving and working on every single summer and his game was getting so much more fluid and effective, that despite that, Phil would center the entire offense around an injury prone, fat, lazy, out of shape, and total opposite of Kobe (in terms of working hard and stayin in tip top shape) in Shaq. Add to the fact that Shaq was telling all his peeps on the Laker teams and around the league that he was the CEO and that Kobe wouldn't win **** without him and made Kobe feel like crap, that's when things went south.

Phil saw how Shaq was "healing on company time" and so majority of that 02-03 season, Phil was going back to the MJ playbook of the CHicago Triangle to feature Kobe in the triangle more, but it just didn't work out because Shaq would make statements with "Don't feed me the ball in the paint, then don't expect me to protect the rim at the other end".

Do you forget these little instances or do you really not know?

This whole post is crap bro.
Kobe never adjusted his role for anyone.

He was not that great of a scorer in the early 00's.
Despite Shaq keeping defenses off balance and allowing Kobe single coverage look at some of the lines he put up.

Kobe
00 = 21ppg on 51%TS
02 = 26ppg on 51%TS
04 = 25ppg on 50%TS

Do you really think they'd have been better off with Kobe taking more shots and shooting even less efficiently???

Kobe may have worked harder in 03 then Shaq did but Shaq was still the veteran and the primary force and reason behind their 3peat.

Because of that Kobe should have accepted his role and deffered to Shaq who was still by far the superior offensive option.
Especially since Phil also wanted him to defer.

Call Shaq all the names you want but he was in great shape every year they were together and he worked hard on his game and on his conditioning.
Other then 2003 where he actually ended up having one of the best seasons of his entire career he was never out of shape when he and Kobe played together.
Leave things unrelated to oncourt play out of basketball discussions.

Phil blamed the feud on Kobe and called him uncoachable.
Kobe beefed with Shaq, Malone and the Laker veterans.

It is obvious what the issue was to everyone but you.
You "like Kobe in 2004" don't want to admit what the actual issue was so instead of accepting responsbility you both (Kobe and you) bring up random ******* unrelated to actual oncourt play to try and make yourselves seem like you're in the right and justify your own issues.

Bruno
10-06-2012, 02:41 PM
Ding Ding Ding we have a WINNER,he actually used that one thing that 80 percent of psders lack...COMMON SENSE

common folks, its not rocket appliances.

LakersSaintsLSU
10-06-2012, 02:42 PM
common folks, its not rocket appliances.

HA i like what you did there

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 02:42 PM
until he came back...

Which has nothing to do with what actually happened or what he said and felt back then... :facepalm:

Bruno
10-06-2012, 02:45 PM
"Some people are just very, very dumb"

Kobe, did you even finish high-school?

formal education is practically useless. my b.a. is worthless. he's smart because he's self taught. college is by design used to create robotic middle managers, Kobe had no need for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXeTSZl-jOU

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-06-2012, 02:45 PM
Don't you get banned if you don't suckup to Kobe in LAL forums?
I'll stop by when I have some more mental energy.

I haven't eaten in awhile and im tired.

Great, we want you at your best.


Stay strong and healthy!

LAKERMANIA
10-06-2012, 02:46 PM
It was a pretty huge issue bro.

Kobe's unwillingness to accept his role in the offense was the main reason behind the feud between him and Shaq.
Wrong. The Kobe and Shaq feud was as much Shaq's fault as Kobe's. Kobe was becoming a rising star and became more of a force on offense and Shaq got jealous of that, wanting the offense to stay with him as the focal point. Let's not make it look like it was a one sided problem.

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 02:46 PM
Stay strong and healthy!

Haha, you too bro.
:hi5:

Bruno
10-06-2012, 02:47 PM
Which has nothing to do with what actually happened or what he said and felt back then... :facepalm:

i'm done actually trying to dig deep into these arguments with you. i give you paragraph after paragraph and you routinely choose to respond to the two sentences you can work with.

you're more obsessed with kobe than I am. ;)

Bruno
10-06-2012, 02:48 PM
HA i like what you did there

thank you sir :guns:

LakersSaintsLSU
10-06-2012, 02:48 PM
Don't you get banned if you don't suckup to Kobe in LAL forums?
I'll stop by when I have some more mental energy.

I haven't eaten in awhile and im tired.

I don't know KB-PAU-DH12 that kinda sounded like a cry for the "principal",you know like back in school guys only got tough when the "principal" showed up....seem's like he's trying to get the "principal" attn to get you "suspended" from school instead of stepping in the ring to debate like a real man

LakersSaintsLSU
10-06-2012, 02:51 PM
i'm done actually trying to dig deep into these arguments with you. i give you paragraph after paragraph and you routinely choose to respond to the two sentences you can work with.

you're more obsessed with kobe than I am. ;)

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Very funny how the kobe haters are MORE obsessed with kobe then we are,we have reasons what are theirs'? oh i know....the fear of the "6th ring"

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 02:52 PM
Wrong. The Kobe and Shaq feud was as much Shaq's fault as Kobe's. Kobe was becoming a rising star and became more of a force on offense and Shaq got jealous of that, wanting the offense to stay with him as the focal point. Let's not make it look like it was a one sided problem.
Wrong.
Shaq played a part in the feud with some immature comments he made and in the way he handled certain situations however Kobe was the main reason behind the feud

Shaq was pretty supportive of Kobe in the early 00's.
Calling him the best player and giving him praise frequently.

They had just 3peated together with Shaq being the primary force/reason behind their success.
Shaq was also the veteran.

Kobe started playing outside fhe offense and forgetting to feed the post and keep Shaq fed on the regular.

Shaq was still by far the better offensive option/anchor and this bothered him.
When both Shaq and Phil talked to Kobe and asked him to accept his role and defer to Shaq he got pissed and angry and cut them out mentally which destroyed the team chemistry Shaq had worked hard to build.

At that point the relationship just went down hill until the eventual breakup.

Phil has repeatably said that the issue was caused by Kobe refusing to accept his role as a supporting player to Shaq.

Kobe may have improved but he wasn't close to Shaq offensively and what he did hurt the team and their relatiobship.

He was too concerned about being "the man" and copying Jordan's legacy and put that over the team.

So yes Shaq, Phil and even the managment played a role but Kobe was the main reason for it.

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 02:54 PM
i'm done actually trying to dig deep into these arguments with you. i give you paragraph after paragraph and you routinely choose to respond to the two sentences you can work with.

you're more obsessed with kobe than I am. ;)

Yeah, that one sentence you posted must have taken a ton of effort. :rolleyes:

And no I am not obsessed with Kobe nor do I dislike him but when people push revisionist history about him to try and make him look like someone he wasn't or do it to try and put down my boy Shaq I will come and set you guys straight.

:p

ink
10-06-2012, 02:55 PM
It was a pretty huge issue bro.

Kobe's unwillingness to accept his role in the offense was the main reason behind the feud between him and Shaq.

I'm not going to minimize the challenges PJ had with Kobe, but at the same time I'm not going to over-simplify and say that he was "selfish".

He was a young, arrogant, talented player that needed to learn.

HE DID.

That's what matters. Now he's an older, still arrogant player that has the basketball and life wisdom to flex and adapt.

What I've seen from Kobe in the last 4-5 years has been impressive. I expect no less than success from Kobe in working with his teammates this coming year.

Credit where credit is due. People change and develop. Kobe has had an amazing career in that regard.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-06-2012, 02:55 PM
I don't know KB-PAU-DH12 that kinda sounded like a cry for the "principal",you know like back in school guys only got tough when the "principal" showed up....seem's like he's trying to get the "principal" attn to get you "suspended" from school instead of stepping in the ring to debate like a real man

It's up to him if he wants to keep his word.

Bruno
10-06-2012, 02:56 PM
Yeah, that one sentence you posted must have taken a ton of effort. :rolleyes:

And no I am not obsessed with Kobe nor do I dislike him but when people push revisionist history about him to try and make him look like someone he wasn't or do it to try and put down my boy Shaq I will come and set you guys straight.

:p

it was a lot of effort, and it was difficult.

you are obsessed with Kobe. If I dug through your past 200 posts how many times would I see you mention Kobe, how many times would you arguing about kobe is some shape or forum? you talk about him more than most posters in the Lakers forum. want me to check out the numbers? :D

ink
10-06-2012, 02:56 PM
Yeah, that one sentence you posted must have taken a ton of effort. :rolleyes:

And no I am not obsessed with Kobe nor do I dislike him but when people push revisionist history about him to try and make him look like someone he wasn't or do it to try and put down my boy Shaq I will come and set you guys straight.

:p

I think most Laker fans would talk about how Kobe has developed. Not that he's been a saint for his whole career. He has changed.

Bruno
10-06-2012, 02:58 PM
I'm not going to minimize the challenges PJ had with Kobe, but at the same time I'm not going to over-simplify and say that he was "selfish".

He was a young, arrogant, talented player that needed to learn.

HE DID.

That's what matters. Now he's an older, still arrogant player that has the basketball and life wisdom to flex and adapt.

What I've seen from Kobe in the last 4-5 years has been impressive. I expect no less than success from Kobe in working with his teammates this coming year.

Credit where credit is due. People change and develop. Kobe has had an amazing career in that regard.

i pretty much agree with this.

say what you will about Kobe in the early days, he still accepted his role enough for the team to three-peat. could they have won more? sure. but they still went for three in a row and only a handful of dynasties have done that. it's something they should be proud of and it's certainly nothing to bash.

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 02:59 PM
it was a lot of effort, and it was difficult.

you are obsessed with Kobe. If I dug through your past 200 posts how many times would I see you mention Kobe, how many times would you arguing about kobe is some shape or forum? you talk about him more than most posters in the Lakers forum. want me to check out the numbers? :D

You are exaggerating.
I have nothing against Kobe and support him/praise him plenty of times.

But I do not support revisionist history and in this particular thread I said that Kobe has been a selfish player at times over his career and he has had success despite that and I stand by my opinion.

I would also say that Shaq has been a poor FT shooter even though I like him.

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 03:03 PM
I'm not going to minimize the challenges PJ had with Kobe, but at the same time I'm not going to over-simplify and say that he was "selfish".

He was a young, arrogant, talented player that needed to learn.

HE DID.

That's what matters. Now he's an older, still arrogant player that has the basketball and life wisdom to flex and adapt.

What I've seen from Kobe in the last 4-5 years has been impressive. I expect no less than success from Kobe in working with his teammates this coming year.

Credit where credit is due. People change and develop. Kobe has had an amazing career in that regard.
Regardless if he actually changed or not his actions back in the early were certainly selfish.

He put his own desires over what was best for the team and what Phil wanted him to do.

Had Phil came out saying he wanted Kobe to play the way he did then I wouldn't be saying this but he said the exact opposite.

LAKERMANIA
10-06-2012, 03:03 PM
Wrong.
Shaq played a part in the feud with some immature comments he made and in the way he handled certain situations however Kobe was the main reason behind the feud

Shaq was pretty supportive of Kobe in the early 00's.
Calling him the best player and giving him praise frequently.
The reason why Shaq was supportive of Kobe in the early 2000s was because he knew that he was still a better player than him, once 2002-2003 came around, Shaq coming into camp 50 pounds heavier, delaying his foot surgery until after the summer and missing 12 of the first season games, and Kobe had a monster season, Shaq was threatened.


Kobe started playing outside fhe offense and forgetting to feed the post and keep Shaq fed on the regular.
Proof?


Shaq was still by far the better offensive option/anchor and this bothered him.
When both Shaq and Phil talked to Kobe and asked him to accept his role and defer to Shaq he got pissed and angry and cut them out mentally which destroyed the team chemistry Shaq had worked hard to build.
See you're only looking at one side. You're acting as if Shaq had zero ego problems and Shaq was this angel of a basketball player and was a victim of the monster that was Kobe Bryant.. GTFO with that


At that point the relationship just went down hill until the eventual breakup.

Phil has repeatably said that the issue was caused by Kobe refusing to accept his role as a supporting player to Shaq.
Phil said that the issue was caused by Kobe ALONE? Proof please.


Kobe may have improved but he wasn't close to Shaq offensively and what he did hurt the team and their relatiobship.
2002-2003 season he averaged 30 ppg, and was close to 30 ppg in the previous 2 seasons before that..


He was too concerned about being "the man" and copying Jordan's legacy and put that over the team.
Proof please.


So yes Shaq, Phil and even the managment played a role but Kobe was the main reason for it.
Yeah, Shaq doesn't get threatened by other people's greatness. You're right..

If anything the issue with Dwight Howard alone would show that Shaq has a major ego problem..

Lakersfanla24
10-06-2012, 03:03 PM
fixed

Haha i almost put 90 but figured i would give true heat fans some credit.

beasted86
10-06-2012, 03:05 PM
I would make the argument that basically all of those guys never suffered the hand, wrist and finger injuries that Kobe ever did, and that if they did, they would probably sit out for 2-3 weeks, but Kobe is that ONE GUY that can and will play through any injuries.



People talk about MJ's flu game, fine. But Kobe in his 17 yrs in the association has played through ever single possible injury that deal with actually basketball playing stuff, like shooting the ball with jackuped fingers, running the floor with jacked up knees for 40+ minutes a game while being 15-16 yrs in the association and 50K+ minutes of professional basketball.


The guy has never cared about shooting percentages, he'll just put these uncomfortable pads on his fingers and still shoot the hell out of the ball, and mid-season, he'll work on altering his shooting stroke.


These other fellas would be scared of ruining their percentages and would probably sit out, but Kobe is not a human and he doesn't care about these gaudy percentages and PER and TS% and Win Shares and all that crap that you stat whores love to bring up.


The only games Kobe has sat out is if Phil or anyone else up high in the organization berated him and demanded he not play. Kobe is as stubborn as you'll get.

Sorry, I have to say it... you sound like a total jockrider throughout this post, as usual.

You are telling me that after 17 seasons in the league the reason Kobe consistently shoots mid to low 40s is because he has had finger injuries?

Seriously dude, half of your posts (whatever the subject) are reaches. You should really consider a career in writing fiction because you have a wild imagination. Either that or a lawyer... I can just see it now "Your honor, my client was punched first, so technically didn't that give him the right to murder?"

Anyway Kobe is not a reckless player. He doesn't have high turnovers, his fingers aren't messed up because he shoots high 80s at the line. It's not because he hasn't had teammates to take the burden off him because he has. The simple truth is his shot selection and "hero ball" at times are the reason for his lower percentage in comparison to all the other elite perimeter players in consideration of top 15 talk. After watching Kobe for a long time, I can't see how anyone cannot have the opinion it is a decided effort on his part to take extremely difficult shots. I don't know if he thinks it makes him look good or what, but he's a great player regardless, but his shot selection, me first scoring attitude, and the fact that he at one time thought in his deluded brain that he deserved to take as much or more shots than a prime Shaq all point to him being selfish.

RaiderLakersA's
10-06-2012, 03:06 PM
Shooting and handling are two different things. He was talking about handling. Obviously one of the best scorers in league history wants the ball to score with. He's just relieved not to have to set up the offence any more. That's why Nash is there.

He's saying that people are dumb if they think he doesn't see that or understand how the ball is going to flow now that he has an elite PG beside him. He's a very high IQ player. Has anyone ever seen him have a problem sharing the ball on the Olympic team? Pretty obvious he can accept whatever role he's given when he's playing with players of his own calibre.

Well put. :clap:

But like Kobe said, some people are just dumb.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-06-2012, 03:08 PM
Sorry, I have to say it... you sound like a total jockrider throughout this post, as usual.

You are telling me that after 17 seasons in the league the reason Kobe consistently shoots mid to low 40s is because he has had finger injuries?

Seriously dude, half of your posts (whatever the subject) are reaches. You should really consider a career in writing fiction because you have a wild imagination. Either that or a lawyer... I can just see it now "Your honor, my client was punched first, so technically didn't that give him the right to murder?"

Anyway Kobe is not a reckless player. He doesn't have high turnovers, his fingers aren't messed up because he shoots high 80s at the line. It's not because he hasn't had teammates to take the burden off him because he has. The simple truth is his shot selection and "hero ball" at times are the reason for his lower percentage in comparison to all the other elite perimeter players in consideration of top 15 talk.


#self-defense


You're Welcome.

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 03:09 PM
2002-2003 season he averaged 30 ppg, and was close to 30 ppg in the previous 2 seasons before that.

Regular Season

Shaq : 28 / 11 / 3apg / 2.5bpg on 60%TS
Shaq : 30-PER / .250-WSP48

Kobe : 30 / 7 / 6 on 55%TS
Kobe : 26-PER / .210-WSP48

RAPM (offensive + defensive)
-----------
Shaq : 5.1 (3rd in the league)
Kobe : 2.8 (23rd in the league)
____________________________________

Playoffs

Shaq : 27 / 15 / 4apg / 3bpg on 57%TS
Shaq : 30.6-PER / .240-WSP48

Kobe : 32 / 5 / 5 on 53%TS
Kobe : 22.2-PER / .131-WSP48

Selfish, Selfish, Selfish.

Shaq was the better player, offensive anchor and he was the veteran and the main reason behind their 3peat.
Phil was the legendary coach.

Both asked him to play a role and he refused to.
He was too concerned with his PPG or proving he was the best.

justinnum1
10-06-2012, 03:10 PM
#self-defense


You're Welcome.

Anyone that knows anything about the judicial system knows that doesn't fly lol.


Regular Season

Shaq : 28 / 11 / 3apg / 2.5bpg on 60%TS
Shaq : 30-PER / .250-WSP48

Kobe : 30 / 7 / 6 on 55%TS
Kobe : 26-PER / .210-WSP48

RAPM (offensive + defensive)
-----------
Shaq : 5.1 (3rd in the league)
Kobe : 2.8 (23rd in the league)
____________________________________

Playoffs

Shaq : 27 / 15 / 4apg / 3bpg on 57%TS
Shaq : 30.6-PER / .240-WSP48

Kobe : 32 / 5 / 5 on 53%TS
Kobe : 22.2-PER / .131-WSP48

Selfish, Selfish, Selfish.

Shaq was the better player, offensive anchor and he was the veteran and the main reason behind their 3peat.
Phil was the legendary coach.

Both asked him to play a role and he refused to.
He was too concerned with his PPG or proving he was the best.


No question shaq was the better player.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-06-2012, 03:15 PM
Seriously, the way that Laker fans and Kobephiles get on their knees and blow their brains out on Kobe is hilarious. I'd figure you guys would be sick of the rug-burn by now and give it a rest. It's totally hilarious that if someone is not a dickrider of Kobe then it makes them an idiot. You clowns are just mad.

We love us some Black Mamba! :dance:

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 03:15 PM
Phil Jackson : "If you can shoot 50 percent or close to 50 percent, 49, 48 percent, then that makes sense for us as a basketball team because we're getting accomplished what we have to get accomplished," Jackson said Tuesday. "But if you can't, then it detracts from ... the best opportunities that the team has."

el hidalgo
10-06-2012, 03:16 PM
only time will tell. kobe's selfishness has been proved time and time again by stats and tape. imo, he wont know how to play without the ball. the lakers wont mesh because of him. well have to see if kobe plays his typical hero ball or if he plays the team game.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-06-2012, 03:17 PM
Phil Jackson : "If you can shoot 50 percent or close to 50 percent, 49, 48 percent, then that makes sense for us as a basketball team because we're getting accomplished what we have to get accomplished," Jackson said Tuesday. "But if you can't, then it detracts from ... the best opportunities that the team has."

OK, so from here on out, we will say that Phil Jackson won only 9 NBA Championships and not 11.

Happy?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-06-2012, 03:18 PM
Ah, now I see the full trolls out with force.

Time for me to leave before certain little children try to get me banned and report one of my posts from like 3 weeks ago. :rolleyes:

el hidalgo
10-06-2012, 03:18 PM
OK, so from here on out, we will say that Phil Jackson won only 9 NBA Championships and not 11.

Happy?

thats not the point. think of the championships they could have won if he was less selfish

LAKERMANIA
10-06-2012, 03:18 PM
Regular Season

Shaq : 28 / 11 / 3apg / 2.5bpg on 60%TS
Shaq : 30-PER / .250-WSP48

Kobe : 30 / 7 / 6 on 55%TS
Kobe : 26-PER / .210-WSP48

RAPM (offensive + defensive)
-----------
Shaq : 5.1 (3rd in the league)
Kobe : 2.8 (23rd in the league)
____________________________________

Playoffs

Shaq : 27 / 15 / 4apg / 3bpg on 57%TS
Shaq : 30.6-PER / .240-WSP48

Kobe : 32 / 5 / 5 on 53%TS
Kobe : 22.2-PER / .131-WSP48

Selfish, Selfish, Selfish.

Shaq was the better player, offensive anchor and he was the veteran and the main reason behind their 3peat.
Phil was the legendary coach.

Both asked him to play a role and he refused to.
He was too concerned with his PPG or proving he was the best.

1. Kobe has more PPG, which proves my point that Kobe WAS in fact a better offensive scorer that season than Shaq.

2. How did you make the leap of he isn't as efficient as Shaq to Kobe's selfish?

3. You still need to prove your last statement. I'm starting to wonder where you pulled that out of that he was too concerned with PPG. Don't worry I'll wait.


Seriously, the way that Laker fans and Kobephiles get on their knees and blow their brains out on Kobe is hilarious. I'd figure you guys would be sick of the rug-burn by now and give it a rest. It's totally hilarious that if someone is not a dickrider of Kobe then it makes them an idiot. You clowns are just mad.

Oh get over it, every fan base has their own bias. Don't get me started with Heat fans.

LAKERMANIA
10-06-2012, 03:24 PM
I can't tell if you are serious or just plain ********. I really can't wrap my mind around someone looking at those stats and saying Kobe was a better offensive player. I swear the mancrush some of you have on Kobe, and how you let it blind you, it makes me wonder if you really wish you were the one raped by Kobe a few years ago.

Scoring = putting the ball into the basket, more PPG..

Efficiency and Scoring are 2 different aspects of an OFFENSIVE GAME.

Kobe was a better scorer, Shaq was more efficient that season. What's not to get?

Chronz
10-06-2012, 03:26 PM
I can't tell if you are serious or just plain ********. I really can't wrap my mind around someone looking at those stats and saying Kobe was a better offensive player. I swear the mancrush some of you have on Kobe, and how you let it blind you, it makes me wonder if you really wish you were the one raped by Kobe a few years ago.

Scorer bro

Just like when AI was leading the league in scoring he was the best offensive scorer in the game.

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 03:26 PM
1. Kobe has more PPG, which proves my point that Kobe WAS in fact a better offensive scorer that season than Shaq.
So you judge scoring ability based purely on PPG?
Higher = better?

So I guess 2012 Kobe was a better scorer then 1994 Hakeem and 2006 Kobe is a better scorer then 91 Jordan.

:o

Shaq in 2003 was a better scorer then Kobe has ever been and its not very close.
There is stuff called efficiency, consistency and unstoppability which matter when judging scorers.

LAKERMANIA
10-06-2012, 03:29 PM
So you really judge scoring ability purely on PPG?
Higher = better?

So I guess 2012 Kobe was a better scorer then 1994 Hakeem and 2006 Kobe is a better scorer then 91 Jordan.

:o

Offensive player:

Scores

and

Is efficient while doing so

They are 2 aspects, of determining a better OFFENSIVE GAME. That season Kobe SCORED more, the numbers you posted PROVE that. When someone scores 30 ppg, and another scores 27 or 28, no matter how you want to twist it, the one who averaged 30 a game, is a better SCORER.

Shaq, was more EFFICIENT with the advanced stats.

Lakersfanla24
10-06-2012, 03:30 PM
People continually underestimate kobes role on the 3 peat teams. It wasnt 1 and 2 it was more 1a and 1b after the first title. That was the only title team IMO where shaq was the unquestionable top dog.

Kobe playoffs: 1999-2000 21.1 ppg 4.4 apg 4.5 rpg on 44% shooting
Shaq playoffs: 1999-2000 30.7 ppg 3.1 apg 15.4 rpg on 57% shooting

Kobe playoffs: 2000-2001 29.4 ppg 6.1 apg 7.3 rpg on 47% shooting
Shaq playoffs: 2000-2001 30.4 ppg 3.2 apg 15.4 rpg on 55% shooting

Kobe playoffs: 2001-2002 26.6 ppg 4.6 apg 5.4 rpg on 43% shooting
Shaq playoffs: 2001-2002 28.5 ppg 2.6 apg 12.6 rpg on 52% shooting

Chronz
10-06-2012, 03:30 PM
I want to see Andrew32 come and say this crap in the Laker forum.

C'mon little man, bring your "A game" to where the big boys play, the Laker forum.



It's easy to to **** about Kobe in the NBA Forum as that's where all the other little trolls and scared little *****es lie.


So c'mon Andrew32, bring your game to the Laker forum and prove to us that Kobe Bryant isn't as great as well all think he is.



I'M LAYING DOWN THIS CHALLENGE TO YOU RIGHT NOW.



Don't worry, we don't bite......





as hard. ;)



Unless...if you're........SCUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEDDDD DDDDD! :ohno:

Wait so NBA fans that criticize Kobe in the NBA FORUM are the ones that are plain scared/hiding but the Lakers fans who remain in the LAKERS FORUMS are the ones who are out in the open?

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 03:31 PM
Shaq, was more EFFICIENT with the advanced stats.

Shaq was far more consistent and efficient going by FG% (normal stat) or TS% (advanced stat).

He also played while facing the main focus of the opposing defenses and while facing constant double/triple teams which Kobe didn't have to face as much when Shaq was in the lineup.

He was clearly better offensively that year and he is supported by all basic / advanced stats and the eye test.

:o

LakersSaintsLSU
10-06-2012, 03:33 PM
I can't tell if you are serious or just plain ********. I really can't wrap my mind around someone looking at those stats and saying Kobe was a better offensive player. I swear the mancrush some of you have on Kobe, and how you let it blind you, it makes me wonder if you really wish you were the one raped by Kobe a few years ago.

Hey my son is two years old i wonder...if you guys were born on the same day,calling someone a bandwagon fan dude like you and EVERY celtic fan that appeared in thin air from a cloud of smoke....let me guess "i was a heat fan since
shaq came,or since dwade came,or since 2000...and for the celtics "i've been a celdic rider since paul pierce came out of kentucky" weve been on to you guys i got a name for you clowns....THE TROLL SQUAD:WE ROLL DEEP SON!!!!

Bruno
10-06-2012, 03:34 PM
am i a kobephile? :D

LakersSaintsLSU
10-06-2012, 03:35 PM
Wait so NBA fans that criticize Kobe in the NBA FORUM are the ones that are plain scared/hiding but the Lakers fans who remain in the LAKERS FORUMS are the ones who are out in the open?

i apologize if you didnt before-hand...but did u just attack a fellow laker fan????

LAKERMANIA
10-06-2012, 03:36 PM
Shaq was far more consistent and efficient going by FG% (normal stat) or TS% (advanced stat).

He also played while facing the main focus of the opposing defenses and while facing constant double/triple teams which Kobe didn't have to face as much when Shaq was in the lineup.

He was clearly better offensively that year and he is supported by all basic / advanced stats and the eye test.

:o

Except PPG...

LakersSaintsLSU
10-06-2012, 03:38 PM
am i a kobephile? :D

that make's two of us....funny because guys were riding MJ's ballsack and 90 percent of those guys arent even bulls fans they just hate the lakers.... just shut'em up by saying "Did MJ play for your team" then i get that "ummmmmm" look the way we hated MJ is how they hate kobe....says a lot right? ;)

Chronz
10-06-2012, 03:38 PM
:smoking:
i apologize if you didnt before-hand...but did u just attack a fellow laker fan????

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 03:40 PM
Except PPG...
Raw PPG is really a poor way to judge the potency and ability of a scorer.

Shaq in 03 was at his best offensively.
He was absolutely unstoppable and he was shooting a high % from the line which took away pretty much his only offensive weakness.

Teams could either double/triple team him to try and hope he gave up the ball or simply concede defeat and allow him a basket.

His passing that year was also really amazing.

Kobe was really good in the 03 regular season but to say he was a better scorer then Shaq is not something I can agree with.

His slight edge in raw volume is way overwhelmed by Shaq's massive edge in overall efficiency, consistency and unstoppability.

Kobe could be at times forced into jumpshots and if he wasn't hitting them well he could have a bad offensive night.
Not saying he was easily stopped but compared to Shaq he was.

Anyway I don't wanna argue anymore.
Kobe is great lalalala.

beasted86
10-06-2012, 03:42 PM
Scoring = putting the ball into the basket, more PPG..

Efficiency and Scoring are 2 different aspects of an OFFENSIVE GAME.

Kobe was a better scorer, Shaq was more efficient that season. What's not to get?

So if one guy averages 29 PPG on 60% and another guy averages 30 PPG on 30%, the guy who averaged 30 is a better scorer?

I'll say it again, I really can't tell if you are being serious.

amos1er
10-06-2012, 03:49 PM
I give Kobe credit (he is in my Top 10) I just hate the arrogance in his statement and lack of appreciation he shows with it.

He is very arrogant and never shows any humility.

Like... I won 5 rings so I am the greatest and no one can question what I do on the court ignoring the fact that his circumstances and supporting casts were also probably the best of his generation by far and that he wasn't exactly the head honcho on some of his Championship teams.

He is like that because haters like you never give him his due.

amos1er
10-06-2012, 03:54 PM
So if one guy averages 29 PPG on 60% and another guy averages 30 PPG on 30%, the guy who averaged 30 is a better scorer?

I'll say it again, I really can't tell if you are being serious.

Oh no...another fg% junkie.

Tyson Chandler's fg% is 68%...does that mean he is a more efficient offensive player than Lebron?

beasted86
10-06-2012, 04:04 PM
Oh no...another fg% junkie.

Tyson Chandler's fg% is 68%...does that mean he is a more efficient offensive player than Lebron?

Tyson's usage rate and LeBron's are on two separate planets. If you need somebody to explain that to you, you really have no business talking sports statistics and which player is better than the next.

justinnum1
10-06-2012, 04:10 PM
Oh no...another fg% junkie.

Tyson Chandler's fg% is 68%...does that mean he is a more efficient offensive player than Lebron?


Tyson's usage rate and LeBron's are on two separate planets. If you need somebody to explain that to you, you really have no business talking sports statistics and which player is better than the next.

Well said.

amos1er
10-06-2012, 04:21 PM
You are telling me that after 17 seasons in the league the reason Kobe consistently shoots mid to low 40s is because he has had finger injuries

Very rarely has Kobe shot in the low 40's. In fact, only 5 of his 17 seasons was he less than 45%; 2 of those were his rookie and sophomore seasons.

At his peak and during his last two championships he was averaging 47% from the field and even in his younger championship years he was still averaging 47% and even 48% from the field.

But as we know, fg% is a pretty silly stat that many amateur hater's use to diminish Kobe's game. Lets get more into some more substantial statistical analysis now shall we...

Kobe has a career ts% of 55.4 and in his peak was shooting 56% to 58%. Just to give you an idea of where Kobe actually stands from an offensive efficiency standpoint I'll just mention that Shaq had a career ts% of 58.6 and during his prime championship years he was shooting anywhere from 57% to 59%. Yes, Shaq had a slightly higher ts%, but Kobe also had a slightly higher ppg so it evens out. Please stop hating with the fg% excuse already...it just makes you look like a complete rank amateur.

Funny how you referred to that poster as a Kobe dick rider. If he is indeed what you would describe as "dick rider" than you are the anthesis...a Kobe ball buster. I never will understand why Kobe Bryant threatens so many around here on PSD enough to consistently go out of their way unjustifiably hate on him like no other. The guy is a multiple champion and a top 10 player of all time...don't know why that bothers people like you so much...Just deal with it already and stop hating!!!

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 04:23 PM
amos1er

TS% does not account for consistency.
Kobe has never been very consistent in terms of scoring efficiency and seasonal/playoff averages cover up for that.

Also Kobe's playoff TS% from 97-04 = 52%

Bruno
10-06-2012, 04:25 PM
amos1er

TS% does not account for consistency.
Kobe has never been very consistent in terms of scoring efficiency and seasonal/playoff averages cover up for that.

Also Kobe's playoff TS% from 97-04 = 52%

TS% doesn't account for consistency? what are you talking about?

'97 seems like a strange year to start looking at his playoff TS%, no?

amos1er
10-06-2012, 04:26 PM
Tyson's usage rate and LeBron's are on two separate planets. If you need somebody to explain that to you, you really have no business talking sports statistics and which player is better than the next.

No **** sherlock. You made my point for me. Obviously there is more than just a players raw fg% to take into account, but novice Kobe haters like you often cling to the absolute argument of fg% in order to to hate on him and kick sand on his legacy. But what you are really doing though your limited basketball knowledge is sounding completely ignorant while doing so.

amos1er
10-06-2012, 04:33 PM
TS% doesn't account for consistency? what are you talking about?

'97 seems like a strange year to start looking at his playoff TS%, no?

Andrew32 has a nasty habit of seeking out whatever statistical scenarios favor Kobe the least. He then convolutes them to construct some asinine bias argument that anyone with any sort of limited basketball knowledge can easily see though.

Evolution23
10-06-2012, 04:55 PM
He's right. People are dumb.

Andrew32
10-06-2012, 04:57 PM
TS% doesn't account for consistency? what are you talking about?

'97 seems like a strange year to start looking at his playoff TS%, no?
Not really.
That was generally his level of consistency outside of 2001.
00 = 51%
02 = 52% (48%TS before Finals)
03 = 53% (doesn't show his inconsistency)
04 = 50%

Consistency, you know what that is.
2010 for example.
He was horribly inefficient in 2/4 playoff series and very efficient in 2/4 playoff series.

Now if you just looked up his playoff stats you'd see 57%TS and say wow he was efficient but in reality he wasn't.

Guys like Shaq / Kareem would give you 57-60%TS efficiency every night.

Kobe was nothing like that.
He would generally burn weaker teams enough to get his overall averages up to a nice number but he was rarely a consistently efficient scorer.

ElChinoLatino
10-06-2012, 05:45 PM
What nice, fun thread this is :)

ink
10-06-2012, 11:51 PM
Not really.
That was generally his level of consistency outside of 2001.
00 = 51%
02 = 52% (48%TS before Finals)
03 = 53% (doesn't show his inconsistency)
04 = 50%

Consistency, you know what that is.
2010 for example.
He was horribly inefficient in 2/4 playoff series and very efficient in 2/4 playoff series.

Now if you just looked up his playoff stats you'd see 57%TS and say wow he was efficient but in reality he wasn't.

Guys like Shaq / Kareem would give you 57-60%TS efficiency every night.

Kobe was nothing like that.
He would generally burn weaker teams enough to get his overall averages up to a nice number but he was rarely a consistently efficient scorer.

So is it fair to say that you use stats to support a bias? Sounds like your conclusion is that Kobe is the boogeyman and any available stat should be conscripted into the holy war against him. Am I correct? Because I've seen several very good posters make very fair and reasonable counter arguments which you ignore.

beasted86
10-07-2012, 12:23 AM
So is it fair to say that you use stats to support a bias? Sounds like your conclusion is that Kobe is the boogeyman and any available stat should be conscripted into the holy war against him. Am I correct? Because I've seen several very good posters make very fair and reasonable counter arguments which you ignore.

His posts are mostly logical and fact based without reaching too far. Surely a hell of a lot better than somebody trying to rationalize Kobe shooting mid to low 40s in FG% by saying he's had injured fingers for his whole career.

ink
10-07-2012, 12:29 AM
His posts are mostly logical and fact based without reaching too far. Surely a hell of a lot better than somebody trying to rationalize Kobe shooting mid to low 40s in FG% by saying he's had injured fingers for his whole career.

The whole discussion around Kobe is ludicrous beyond belief. That goes for Lebron too.

Thank you social media for retarding any intelligent appreciation of the NBA. lol.

amos1er
10-07-2012, 12:54 AM
Not really.
That was generally his level of consistency outside of 2001.
00 = 51%
02 = 52% (48%TS before Finals)
03 = 53% (doesn't show his inconsistency)
04 = 50%

Consistency, you know what that is.
2010 for example.
He was horribly inefficient in 2/4 playoff series and very efficient in 2/4 playoff series.

Now if you just looked up his playoff stats you'd see 57%TS and say wow he was efficient but in reality he wasn't.

Guys like Shaq / Kareem would give you 57-60%TS efficiency every night.

Kobe was nothing like that.
He would generally burn weaker teams enough to get his overall averages up to a nice number but he was rarely a consistently efficient scorer.


Really??? He padded his stats against the weaker teams???HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA You have no idea what you are talking about.

Kobe was easily the MVP of the 2001 WCF against the San Antonio Spurs...the second best team in the NBA next to the Lakers. Yes the second best team, the Sixers were not as good as the Spurs that year. Kobe was the MVP against the Lakers greatest opponent that year. Shaq only had Kobe beat in the finals against the weaker Sixers. If anything, Shaq padded his stats against the weaker teams that year. http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_WCF.html

2001 Western Conference finals
Kobe: 33 ppg, 7 apg, 7 rpg, 1.5 spg, fg% 51.4, ts% 63.3
Shaq: 27 ppg, 13 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.3 bpg, fg% 54.1, ts% 63.5

Lets look at a comparison of the West Conference playoffs (where Lakers faced their BY FAR the toughest competition):

Kobe (11g): 31.6 PTS (.577 TS%), 7.0 REB, 6.2 AST, 1.6 STL, 0.5 BLK, 3.0 TOV
Shaq (11g): 29.3 PTS (.558 TS%), 15.3 REB, 2.5 AST, 0.5 STL, 1.9 BLK, 3.4 TOV

The NBA finals where Lakers faced a pathetic team that would be eliminated in first round of West conference playoffs:

Kobe ( 5g): 24.6 PTS (.501 TS%), 7.8 REB, 5.8 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.4 BLK, 3.6 TOV
Shaq ( 5g): 33.0 PTS (.575 TS%), 15.8 REB, 4.8 AST, 0.4 STL, 3.4 BLK, 4.0 TOV

Yes, Shaq DOMINATED the Finals against non-existent front court of 76'ers, and Kobe took a step back letting Shaq dominate them.

They give the Finals MVP award based on contribution in the Finals only, not throughout the playoffs, where Kobe was the obvious MVP.

BTW, for all you winshare geeks...Kobe's win share for the entire championship run was 3.8 to Shaq's 3.7.

Lets look at some more data now shall we:

2001 NBA Playoffs
Shaq - 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 55.5 FG%, 56.4 TS%
Kobe - 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 46.9 FG%, 55.5 TS%

2002 NBA Playoffs
Shaq - 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 52.9 FG%, 56.9 TS%
Kobe - 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 43.4 FG%, 51.1 TS%

Kobe led the lakers in PPG and APG through through entire Western Conference Playoffs in 2001 and 2002

2001 NBA Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG, .492 FG% 57.7 TS%
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG, .547 FG% 55.8 TS%

2002 NBA Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG, .418 FG%
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG, .510 FG%

Kobe led the Lakers in PPG and APG in 2/4 series in 2001 and 2/4 series in 2002. A total of 4/8 series both years combined.

2001 Western Conf Semifnals
2001 Western Conf Finals
2002 Western Conf 1st Round
2002 Western Conf Semifinals

Kobe led the Lakers in Field Goals Made in the 2nd Half and 4th Quarters of the 2002 NBA Playoffs

2002 NBA Playoffs - 2nd Half+OT
Bryant - 97/214 FG, 17/37 3PT, 45.3 FG%, 49.3 eFG%, 45.9 3PT% in 19 games
O'Neal - 85/186 FG, 0/0 3PT, 45.7 FG%, 45.7 eFG%, 0.0 3PT% in 19 games

2002 NBA Playoffs - 4th Quarter+OT
Bryant - 52/106 FG, 12/24 3PT, 49.1 FG%, 54.7 eFG%, 50.0 3PT% in 19 games
O'Neal - 32/85 FG, 0/0 3PT, 37.6 FG%, 37.6 eFG%, 0.0 3PT% in 18 games

1i1f4b
10-07-2012, 04:39 AM
Thanks for reminding me that I need to set my DVR to record Dexter tomorrow night. :D

LOL that post reminded me of dexter too. Greatest show ever :D

KBfrom8to24
10-07-2012, 04:45 AM
:laugh2:

Hall of Shame worthy statement. If there was one HOS, this statement would be at the very top of the list.

I'm sure you are one of those dumb persons Kobe have mentioned, because of evaluating his statement literally.

kblo247
10-07-2012, 06:00 AM
Tex Winters: There's no I in team
MJ: There's an I in Win.

Kobe: Who has won more than me since MJ left? Okay then stfu and get with the program dummies

Andrew32
10-07-2012, 07:10 AM
Yes, Shaq DOMINATED the Finals against non-existent front court of 76'ers, and Kobe took a step back letting Shaq dominate them.
@The Bolded Part : http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PnI9d8LAaQQ/S7nqQooeUuI/AAAAAAAAKsE/EtZ8ZrnhSbM/s1600/62449_rockets_mutombo_basketball.jpg
Hard to take you seriously after that gem.

What proof do you have that Kobe purposefully took a step back?

His FGAttempts Per-Game were pretty much the same in that series as they were in 2/3 other series as was his USG% rate which pretty much disproves that theory.

He simply played poorly and shot poorly and if not for Shaq stepping up and carrying the team they would have lost.

Kobe may have put up slightly better box-score stats against the Spurs but Shaq was still by far the MVP of that series.
He was the focus of the Spurs defense and he kept the Spurs defense off balance.
He was the one facing the double/triple teams that allowed Kobe to destroy their putrid perimeter defenders on single coverage and allowed him wide open lanes to the basket for easy buckets.

The Spurs had probably the worst perimeter defense of All-Time.
Shaq was facing Duncan/Robinson while Kobe was facing an undersized PG and 38 year old porter.

Not to mention Shaq's huge edge in defensive impact as LAL's defensive anchor.

There is more to the game then just "derr who had the highest PPG".

Shaq's overall production dwarfed Kobe's in 7/9 WCSeries and he was the MVP in 8/9 WCSeries.

You can isolate individual series, ignore certain series where Kobe played bad, ignore efficiency and game context and defensive impact to support your revisionist history but you aren't convincing anyone.

Kobe in 2002 wasn't even on the same level as Prime Pippen and you want me to believe he was equal in value to Peak Shaq?

2002 Kobe : 26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 51%TS
1992 Pippen : 20 / 9 / 7apg on 54%TS

:o

marcussr
10-07-2012, 09:03 AM
Yeah this notion that Kobe is going put the teams winning a championship because of selfishness is total baloney at this point in his life he is ring chasing. I don't expect him to roll completely over but he is going to do whatever necessary to get that 6th ring.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-07-2012, 09:35 AM
there will be problems.

but not as much as people think.
and at the same time, they wont mesh as well as kobe thinks.

should be interesting to see.

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 01:11 PM
Why do you guys even acknowledge Andrew32???

Lets just ignore him and hope he goes away. I've blocked him a long LONG time ago.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 01:16 PM
there will be problems.

but not as much as people think.
and at the same time, they wont mesh as well as kobe thinks.

should be interesting to see.

How so?

Everyone does everything differently. It's not like the Heat where Wade and LeBron are basically do similar things on the court.


Nash likes to pass, Kobe likes to score, Dwight likes to rebound and block shots, Metta likes to defend, and Pau likes to score + facilitate from the post.

ink
10-07-2012, 01:16 PM
Why do you guys even acknowledge Andrew32???

Lets just ignore him and hope he goes away. I've blocked him a long LONG time ago.

The irony about Kobe is that we're talking about what he will do THIS YEAR.

What he did in 2002 or 2004 is irrelevant.

That's why he is 100% correct when he says that people are dumb who believe he can't share the ball. Since 2004 he has matured as a player, turning into one of the game's most intelligent athletes. I don't see any particular problem with him as a teammate over the last half decade; he has been a very good leader. At the Olympics he has actually been statesmanlike and I never thought I'd say that about Kobe Bryant.

Time to let go of the grudges.

ink
10-07-2012, 01:20 PM
How so?

Everyone does everything differently. It's not like the Heat where Wade and LeBron are basically do similar things on the court.


Nash likes to pass, Kobe likes to score, Dwight likes to rebound and block shots, Metta likes to defend, and Pau likes to score + facilitate from the post.

I agree. The balance to this lineup is awesome. If all of these players were in their primes they would be one of the best teams ever assembled. You have to admire how well constructed the roster is.

Bryant is aware of the talent that will be playing alongside him.

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 01:21 PM
there will be problems.

but not as much as people think.
and at the same time, they wont mesh as well as kobe thinks.

should be interesting to see.

You state your hopes as facts and that's the problem with you Heat fans.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 01:24 PM
The irony about Kobe is that we're talking about what he will do THIS YEAR.

What he did in 2002 or 2004 is irrelevant.

That's why he is 100% correct when he says that people are dumb who believe he can't share the ball. Since 2004 he has matured as a player, turning into one of the game's most intelligent athletes. I don't see any particular problem with him as a teammate over the last half decade; he has been a very good leader. At the Olympics he has actually been statesmanlike and I never thought I'd say that about Kobe Bryant.

Time to let go of the grudges.

I think we all agree that Kobe was at his worst selfish egotistical self in 04, and you're right, he has grown from that experience as well as Colorado, Shaq's departure, Phil's book, the Karl Malone-Vanessa Bryant debacle, and the trade tirade from Summer 2007.


He sees the light at the end of the tunnel, it's the brightest it's ever been, and he just wants to sit at the same dinner table as Mike and Kareem. He has 2 yrs left on his contract (3 yrs max according to him), so we'll see how badly he along with guys that have never won it before like Nash, Dwight and Jamison want it.


He also understands that he could very well be the greatest Laker of all-time if in his era of basketball, his Lakers could surpass the Celtics for most championships. He needs to win 2 more in the next 3 yrs, and I think the arrival of Dwight Howard gives this franchise a helluva chance to do so.


Should be exciting to see the closing of the careers of both Kobe & Nash in these next 2-3 yrs and see the rise of Dwight as the next guy who will adorn that Purple & Gold Armor for years to come.

ink
10-07-2012, 01:26 PM
I think we all agree that Kobe was at his worst selfish egotistical self in 04, and you're right, he has grown from that experience as well as Colorado, Shaq's departure, Phil's book, the Karl Malone-Vanessa Bryant debacle, and the trade tirade from Summer 2007.


He sees the light at the end of the tunnel, it's the brightest it's ever been, and he just wants to sit at the same dinner table as Mike and Kareem. He has 2 yrs left on his contract (3 yrs max according to him), so we'll see how badly he along with guys that have never won it before like Nash, Dwight and Jamison want it.


He also understands that he could very well be the greatest Laker of all-time if in his era of basketball, his Lakers could surpass the Celtics for most championships. He needs to win 2 more in the next 3 yrs, and I think the arrival of Dwight Howard gives this franchise a helluva chance to do so.


Should be exciting to see the closing of the careers of both Kobe & Nash in these next 2-3 yrs and see the rise of Dwight as the next guy who will adorn that Purple & Gold Armor for years to come.

It's Dwight I have big questions about, not Kobe. Kobe has proven himself 100 times over since 2004. I still don't like him but that's irrelevant. He will give whatever is asked of him to make this team win, just like he has for years.

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 01:26 PM
His posts are mostly logical and fact based without reaching too far. Surely a hell of a lot better than somebody trying to rationalize Kobe shooting mid to low 40s in FG% by saying he's had injured fingers for his whole career.

No, his posts use stats that are skewed to support what he wants to be believe.

Kobe's fg% comes from his shot selection. That's the truth. People using fg% to argue whether one player is better than the other are just beig ignorant. A player that shoots more jumpshots as opposed to always shooting layups will always shoot a lower fg%. If FG% was all telling stat than Tyson Chandler is the 2nd greatest offensive player in history.

Stats will never tell the whole story.

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 01:29 PM
It's Dwight I have big questions about, not Kobe. Kobe has proven himself 100 times over since 2004. I still don't like him but that's irrelevant. He will give whatever is asked of him to make this team win, just like he has for years.

I've always loved and appreciated you as a poster in this forum.

You give this forum hope :clap:

I almost gave up on the NBA forum with all the homers and haters posting their garbage in here these days.

beasted86
10-07-2012, 01:41 PM
No, his posts use stats that are skewed to support what he wants to be believe.

Kobe's fg% comes from his shot selection. That's the truth. People using fg% to argue whether one player is better than the other are just beig ignorant. A player that shoots more jumpsuits as opposed to always shooting layups will always shoot a lower fg%.

Stats will never tell the whole story.

Quality of shots is still the primary determinant. Kobe just takes bad shots. I'm not sure if you specifically are saying otherwise, but anyone who can't see that is blind. His playing style is more jumpshooter.

As far as the FG% thing, the reason it was even being discussed in this thread is someone actually tried to say that at any point Shaq and Kobe played together from 96 to 04 that Kobe was a better scorer, which is plain false if you know anything about stats.

JasonJohnHorn
10-07-2012, 01:43 PM
I'm ok with Kobe thinking I'm dumb ;-)


I mean, he said: "I don't like having the ball." How full of $#!T was that statement? lol I mean seriously... everybody is laughing at the thought of Kobe saying that?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 01:43 PM
It's Dwight I have big questions about, not Kobe. Kobe has proven himself 100 times over since 2004. I still don't like him but that's irrelevant. He will give whatever is asked of him to make this team win, just like he has for years.

I think the two guys who will help Dwight immediately in terms of maturation and mental approach to the game are Steve Nash and the legendary Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. If Dwight listens to what Kareem has to say, and absorbs the brilliant basketball mind that is Steve Nash and learns how to playoff off of him, and work on those FT shooting, I have no doubt that Dwight can elevate this team to even greater heights than they reached in the Kobe-Pau-Phil era.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 01:47 PM
Quality of shots is still the primary determinant. Kobe just takes bad shots. I'm not sure if you specifically are saying otherwise, but anyone who can't see that is blind. His playing style is more jumpshooter.

As far as the FG% thing, the reason it was even being discussed in this thread is someone actually tried to say that at any point Shaq and Kobe played together from 96 to 04 that Kobe was a better scorer, which is plain false if you know anything about stats.

Of course Kobe takes bad shots, and Shaq was the better scorer from 96-00 and 01-02, but Kobe was a better scorer from 02-04 and a comparable scorer with Shaq in 00-01 (Shaq 28.7 PPG, Kobe 28.5 PPG). From the 2000-2001 season, Shaq dipped his scoring from 1.0 PPG while Kobe upped his scoring by a ridiculous 6.0 PPG. In 2001 is when Kobe became the real deal and the legitimate 1B option to Shaq's 1A.


I really don't think it's wise to discredit one to raise the other's esteem. Shaq-Kobe will always be the most dominant duo in NBA History, period, they both played well off each other even though it took some time, chemistry, and the arrival of Phil.

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 01:47 PM
Quality of shots is still the primary determinant. Kobe just takes bad shots. I'm not sure if you specifically are saying otherwise, but anyone who can't see that is blind. His playing style is more jumpshooter.

As far as the FG% thing, the reason it was even being discussed in this thread is someone actually tried to say that at any point Shaq and Kobe played together from 96 to 04 that Kobe was a better scorer, which is plain false if you know anything about stats.

Better scorer 96-04, maybe not. Definitely not at anytime before 01'. Kobe was the more skilled scorer starting in 01-02' though.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 01:48 PM
I'm ok with Kobe thinking I'm dumb ;-)


I mean, he said: "I don't like having the ball." How full of $#!T was that statement? lol I mean seriously... everybody is laughing at the thought of Kobe saying that?

Don't worry, Kobe's not the only one who thinks you're dumb.


If you still can't figure out what that statement means after 10 pages of this thread, then yes, you absolutely do fit under the "dumb" category.

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 01:51 PM
I'm ok with Kobe thinking I'm dumb ;-)


I mean, he said: "I don't like having the ball." How full of $#!T was that statement? lol I mean seriously... everybody is laughing at the thought of Kobe saying that?

Your ignorance in not even attempting to understand what he meant makes me think you're dumb.

beasted86
10-07-2012, 01:53 PM
Of course Kobe takes bad shots, and Shaq was the better scorer from 96-00 and 01-02, but Kobe was a better scorer from 02-04 and a comparable scorer with Shaq in 00-01 (Shaq 28.7 PPG, Kobe 28.5 PPG). From the 2000-2001 season, Shaq dipped his scoring from 1.0 PPG while Kobe upped his scoring by a ridiculous 6.0 PPG. In 2001 is when Kobe became the real deal and the legitimate 1B option to Shaq's 1A.


RE: See bolded below:



As far as the FG% thing, the reason it was even being discussed in this thread is someone actually tried to say that at any point Shaq and Kobe played together from 96 to 04 that Kobe was a better scorer, which is plain false if you know anything about stats.

I'm not trying to troll, but you seriously don't know anything.

The Wise One
10-07-2012, 01:55 PM
I think the two guys who will help Dwight immediately in terms of maturation and mental approach to the game are Steve Nash and the legendary Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. If Dwight listens to what Kareem has to say, and absorbs the brilliant basketball mind that is Steve Nash and learns how to playoff off of him, and work on those FT shooting, I have no doubt that Dwight can elevate this team to even greater heights than they reached in the Kobe-Pau-Phil era.

This just sounds like overrated homeristic crap. Working with old players is so overrated. What, is he going to learn the sky hook from him? Working with Kareem won't help him much.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 01:55 PM
Your ignorance in not even attempting to understand what he meant makes me think you're dumb.

Dude that's like 80% of PSD. It's guys like JJH, Chronz, naps, el hidalgo etc. who will look to discredit Black Mamba long even after he retires.

These stat whores will probably criticize Kobe's Hall of Fame speech by saying that his word usage per minute in his speech was nothing compared to MJ's or Magic's Hall of Fame speech. :rolleyes:

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 01:56 PM
Quality of shots is still the primary determinant. Kobe just takes bad shots. I'm not sure if you specifically are saying otherwise, but anyone who can't see that is blind. His playing style is more jumpshooter.

As far as the FG% thing, the reason it was even being discussed in this thread is someone actually tried to say that at any point Shaq and Kobe played together from 96 to 04 that Kobe was a better scorer, which is plain false if you know anything about stats.

But if all you know is stats then you don't really know anything either :rolleyes:

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 01:57 PM
This just sounds like overrated homeristic crap. Working with old players is so overrated. What, is he going to learn the sky hook from him? Working with Kareem won't help him much.

Professionalism, Laker tradition, sense of urgency, maturation, how to play off his teammates at that center position.

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 01:59 PM
This just sounds like overrated homeristic crap. Working with old players is so overrated. What, is he going to learn the sky hook from him? Working with Kareem won't help him much.

It helped Andrew Bynum didn't it?

MJ helped Kobe didn't he? That's pretty much where Kobe learned all of his footwork.

You don't seem wise at all :rolleyes:

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 02:00 PM
Dude that's like 80% of PSD. It's guys like JJH, Chronz, naps, el hidalgo etc. who will look to discredit Black Mamba long even after he retires.

These stat whores will probably criticize Kobe's Hall of Fame speech by saying that his word usage per minute in his speech was nothing compared to MJ's or Magic's Hall of Fame speech. :rolleyes:

And that's why the NBA forum is crap now.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 02:03 PM
It helped Andrew Bynum didn't it?

MJ helped Kobe didn't he? That's pretty much where Kobe learned all of his footwork.

You don't seem wise at all :rolleyes:

Supreme LA,

I think all these fans are just shell shocked at the fact that everyone thought the Lakers were going to go extinct, Kobe Bryant was on the verge of signing AARP papers, and that the rest of the league would now have a shot at winning championships, but when the Nash trade happened on July 4th, followed by the inevitable Dwight acquisition, then everyone started to shat in their pants, and in a span of 1 month, the Lakers were re-vamped for the now and the future for many many years to come.

Look at the salary cap situation when Bryant, Gasol, WorldPeace and Blake are off the books in 2 yrs, and that next superstar gets paired with Dwight, and it's just Showtime, Shaq-Kobe and Kobe-Pau Laker eras all over again.


They..................MMMMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDD DDDDDDDDDD!



Heat fans will enjoy what they have now for the next couple of yrs, because after those guys are gone, then???


Lakers management always seems to find a way, and these knuckleheads just can't handle that.

beasted86
10-07-2012, 02:09 PM
But if all you know is stats then you don't really know anything either :rolleyes:

The fact that you said Kobe was already a better scorer than Shaq in 01-02 says enough about what you know... statistics or otherwise.

It's nice that you came on the internet to post you opinion for the sake of having an opinion, but it's a waste of time when trying to have a fact based discussion to compare and contrast players.

The Wise One
10-07-2012, 02:09 PM
It helped Andrew Bynum didn't it?

MJ helped Kobe didn't he? That's pretty much where Kobe learned all of his footwork.

You don't seem wise at all :rolleyes:

When was this?

Dwight worked with Hakeem. I don't see him busting out the dream shake, do you? What about working with Ewing? Working with old players is just plain overrated. Dwight has worked with some of the best big men coaches throughout his career I'm sure. a former player won't magically make him better. Kareem won't help him. Unless Dwight becomes the 2nd player in the history of the NBA to master the sky hook, it aint happening sister.

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 02:14 PM
Dude that's like 80% of PSD. It's guys like JJH, Chronz, naps, el hidalgo etc. who will look to discredit Black Mamba long even after he retires.

These stat whores will probably criticize Kobe's Hall of Fame speech by saying that his word usage per minute in his speech was nothing compared to MJ's or Magic's Hall of Fame speech. :rolleyes:


The fact that you said Kobe was already a better scorer than Shaq in 01-02 says enough about what you know... statistics or otherwise.

It's nice that you came on the internet to post you opinion for the sake of having an opinion, but it's a waste of time when trying to have a fact based discussion to compare and contrast players.

Did I say that? Go back and read my post. I said he was the more skilled scorer beginning at that time. Am I wrong??

It's also nice that you come on the Internet stating skewed stats as facts believing numbers tell the whole story. Go away.

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 02:15 PM
When was this?

Dwight worked with Hakeem. I don't see him busting out the dream shake, do you? What about working with Ewing? Working with old players is just plain overrated. Dwight has worked with some of the best big men coaches throughout his career I'm sure. a former player won't magically make him better. Kareem won't help him. Unless Dwight becomes the 2nd player in the history of the NBA to master the sky hook, it aint happening sister.

2005.

You can't be wise if you don't believe in learning from those before you.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 02:20 PM
When was this?

Dwight worked with Hakeem. I don't see him busting out the dream shake, do you? What about working with Ewing? Working with old players is just plain overrated. Dwight has worked with some of the best big men coaches throughout his career I'm sure. a former player won't magically make him better. Kareem won't help him. Unless Dwight becomes the 2nd player in the history of the NBA to master the sky hook, it aint happening sister.

It's the not the improvement of basketball skills, it's the ability to become a leader, mature on and off the court, be able to play with other talented teammates (much like Kareem did with Magic and Worthy), and carry the Laker big man tradition.


All the Laker big mans have had different games.


Mikan wasn't the flashiest, but he was the most skilled big man of his era.

Wilt was dominant with power, strength, agility, and a man among boys.

Kareem was graceful with the skyhook, good passer, didn't have much of a power game.

Shaq had just so much girth and dominated and physically went through all his guys.


Dwight has a little bit of a power game with 2 or 3 nice offensive moves, but he mostly comes from the Bill Russell lineage of big men with rebounding, blocking shots, and patrolling the paint defensively for 48 minutes.



The end result with all those guys is championships. That's it. They all did it their way with different teams in different eras of basketball. Nobody is telling Dwight to become any other center. Just be himself and the results will play out with banners up in the rafters at Staples and parades down Figueroa.

The Doctor
10-07-2012, 02:27 PM
Kobe Bryant may or may not be selfish, however I can tell you for many years he has the been the baddest Mutha %^&*$% on the planet. Check reference point http://youtu.be/MNxPfsezN5o.

The Wise One
10-07-2012, 02:29 PM
It's the not the improvement of basketball skills, it's the ability to become a leader, mature on and off the court, be able to play with other talented teammates (much like Kareem did with Magic and Worthy), and carry the Laker big man tradition.


All the Laker big mans have had different games.


Mikan wasn't the flashiest, but he was the most skilled big man of his era.

Wilt was dominant with power, strength, agility, and a man among boys.

Kareem was graceful with the skyhook, good passer, didn't have much of a power game.

Shaq had just so much girth and dominated and physically went through all his guys.


Dwight has a little bit of a power game with 2 or 3 nice offensive moves, but he mostly comes from the Bill Russell lineage of big men with rebounding, blocking shots, and patrolling the paint defensively for 48 minutes.



The end result with all those guys is championships. That's it. They all did it their way with different teams in different eras of basketball. Nobody is telling Dwight to become any other center. Just be himself and the results will play out with banners up in the rafters at Staples and parades down Figueroa.

Sheesh, I'll admit youv got me beaten on any Shaq debate. Sounds like you knew him a little more than I ever wish to...

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 02:30 PM
Kobe Bryant may or may not be selfish, however I can tell you for many years he has the been the baddest Mutha %^&*$% on the planet. Check reference point http://youtu.be/MNxPfsezN5o.


And those are just #8 Kobe clips, add #24 Kobe clips of the past 6 seasons to that. :drool:

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 02:31 PM
Sheesh, I'll admit youv got me beaten on any Shaq debate. Sounds like you knew him a little more than I ever wish to...

Physically, and this is what you nonsensical posters do.


We take the time to construct a well thought out long post, and you guys will take the teeniest tiny little detail worth 3 or 4 words, bold it, and will only respond to that.


Typical PSD children :rolleyes:

b@llhog24
10-07-2012, 02:38 PM
Sorry, I have to say it... you sound like a total jockrider throughout this post, as usual.

You are telling me that after 17 seasons in the league the reason Kobe consistently shoots mid to low 40s is because he has had finger injuries?

Seriously dude, half of your posts (whatever the subject) are reaches. You should really consider a career in writing fiction because you have a wild imagination. Either that or a lawyer... I can just see it now "Your honor, my client was punched first, so technically didn't that give him the right to murder?"

Anyway Kobe is not a reckless player. He doesn't have high turnovers, his fingers aren't messed up because he shoots high 80s at the line. It's not because he hasn't had teammates to take the burden off him because he has. The simple truth is his shot selection and "hero ball" at times are the reason for his lower percentage in comparison to all the other elite perimeter players in consideration of top 15 talk. After watching Kobe for a long time, I can't see how anyone cannot have the opinion it is a decided effort on his part to take extremely difficult shots. I don't know if he thinks it makes him look good or what, but he's a great player regardless, but his shot selection, me first scoring attitude, and the fact that he at one time thought in his deluded brain that he deserved to take as much or more shots than a prime Shaq all point to him being selfish.

:laugh:


1. Kobe has more PPG, which proves my point that Kobe WAS in fact a better offensive scorer that season than Shaq.

2. How did you make the leap of he isn't as efficient as Shaq to Kobe's selfish?

3. You still need to prove your last statement. I'm starting to wonder where you pulled that out of that he was too concerned with PPG. Don't worry I'll wait.



Oh get over it, every fan base has their own bias. Don't get me started with Heat fans.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22490520.jpg


Scoring = putting the ball into the basket, more PPG..

Efficiency and Scoring are 2 different aspects of an OFFENSIVE GAME.

Kobe was a better scorer, Shaq was more efficient that season. What's not to get?

Shaq was still the better offensive player, so its really a non issue. I sincerely hope that Wilt Chamberlain is your undisputed GOAT.


am i a kobephile? :D

On some days.


Oh no...another fg% junkie.

Tyson Chandler's fg% is 68%...does that mean he is a more efficient offensive player than Lebron?

Yes, it's actually very straight forward.


Very rarely has Kobe shot in the low 40's. In fact, only 5 of his 17 seasons was he less than 45%; 2 of those were his rookie and sophomore seasons.

At his peak and during his last two championships he was averaging 47% from the field and even in his younger championship years he was still averaging 47% and even 48% from the field.

But as we know, fg% is a pretty silly stat that many amateur hater's use to diminish Kobe's game. Lets get more into some more substantial statistical analysis now shall we...

Kobe has a career ts% of 55.4 and in his peak was shooting 56% to 58%. Just to give you an idea of where Kobe actually stands from an offensive efficiency standpoint I'll just mention that Shaq had a career ts% of 58.6 and during his prime championship years he was shooting anywhere from 57% to 59%. Yes, Shaq had a slightly higher ts%, but Kobe also had a slightly higher ppg so it evens out. Please stop hating with the fg% excuse already...it just makes you look like a complete rank amateur.

Funny how you referred to that poster as a Kobe dick rider. If he is indeed what you would describe as "dick rider" than you are the anthesis...a Kobe ball buster. I never will understand why Kobe Bryant threatens so many around here on PSD enough to consistently go out of their way unjustifiably hate on him like no other. The guy is a multiple champion and a top 10 player of all time...don't know why that bothers people like you so much...Just deal with it already and stop hating!!!

It doesn't work like that.


No **** sherlock. You made my point for me. Obviously there is more than just a players raw fg% to take into account, but novice Kobe haters like you often cling to the absolute argument of fg% in order to to hate on him and kick sand on his legacy. But what you are really doing though your limited basketball knowledge is sounding completely ignorant while doing so.

Except your point or at least what I'm perceiving to be your point doesn't fly. Shaq is a better offensive player than Kobe, and LeBron is a better offensive player than Chandler. But then again that's what happens when you look at one stat without factoring their roles within a team concept.

LAKERMANIA
10-07-2012, 02:47 PM
Shaq was still the better offensive player, so its really a non issue. I sincerely hope that Wilt Chamberlain is your undisputed GOAT.
Different time, different era. Nice try.


On Chandler being a more efficient offensive player than Lebron:

Yes, it's actually very straight forward.


Meanwhile...

Except your point or at least what I'm perceiving to be your point doesn't fly. Shaq is a better offensive player than Kobe, and LeBron is a better offensive player than Chandler.
How is Lebron a better offensive player than chandler when you said earlier Chandler is more efficient?

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-07-2012, 02:47 PM
It was a pretty huge issue bro.

Kobe's unwillingness to accept his role in the offense was the main reason behind the feud between him and Shaq.

When Phil and Shaq both asked him to accept his role and to stop playing outside of the offense he cut them out mentally which destroyed team chemistry and adopted the *f everyone* mentality.

Phil constantly had issues reigning Kobe in and getting him to accept his role in the offense throughout the 00's and the issues peaked around 03 and 04.

He wanted the offense ran through Shaq with Kobe playing a supporting role and Kobe wanted to score more and run the offense through him and dictate everything.

While I agree with many of the things you said acting like Phil didn't have an issue with how Kobe played back in the early 00's is clearly not true.

Phil repeatably criticized his play and called him uncoachable.

Again you're wrong about kobe, he actually sacrificed his game for shaq and he did that because phil told him to... God you're such a liar when it comes to Kobe it's unbelievable

GRAY: Shaq says that you have not been a team player. Is he right?

BRYANT: That's ridiculous. I have been successfully sacrificing my game for years for Shaq. That's what Phil [Jackson] wanted me to do, so I did it. Last year Phil told me Shaq was not in physical condition to carry the trust of our offense, so he asked me to do it. But then he saw Shaq was getting upset that the team wasn't running through him, so Phil asked me to pull back and I did. This year is no different; my role is whatever Phil wants it to be. Period.

The Wise One
10-07-2012, 02:49 PM
Physically, and this is what you nonsensical posters do.


We take the time to construct a well thought out long post, and you guys will take the teeniest tiny little detail worth 3 or 4 words, bold it, and will only respond to that.


Typical PSD children :rolleyes:

You don't get it, do you? :laugh2:

b@llhog24
10-07-2012, 02:51 PM
Different time, different era. Nice try.

Or so now you want to apply context to the ppg?


On Chandler being a more efficient offensive player than Lebron:

Meanwhile...

How is Lebron a better offensive player than chandler when you said earlier Chandler is more efficient?

He can pass.

LAKERMANIA
10-07-2012, 02:54 PM
He can pass.

:laugh: So you determine the better offensive player by 1. The efficiency and 2. The person who can 'pass'? That's it?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 02:57 PM
You don't get it, do you? :laugh2:

6 posts, just joined today, ready to rumble and troll from the get-go, can only mean that you're a dupe. Go away.

b@llhog24
10-07-2012, 02:58 PM
:laugh: So you determine the better offensive player by 1. The efficiency and 2. The person who can 'pass'? That's it?

Nope, in that respect (Chandler vs LeBron) its all I had to say. You determine who is the better offensive player based on role, talent around said player, usage, efficiency (passing or scoring), impact, and the quantitative differences between offensive sets.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 02:59 PM
Again you're wrong about kobe, he actually sacrificed his game for shaq and he did that because phil told him to... God you're such a liar when it comes to Kobe it's unbelievable

GRAY: Shaq says that you have not been a team player. Is he right?

BRYANT: That's ridiculous. I have been successfully sacrificing my game for years for Shaq. That's what Phil [Jackson] wanted me to do, so I did it. Last year Phil told me Shaq was not in physical condition to carry the trust of our offense, so he asked me to do it. But then he saw Shaq was getting upset that the team wasn't running through him, so Phil asked me to pull back and I did. This year is no different; my role is whatever Phil wants it to be. Period.


Signed. Sealed. Delivered.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 03:01 PM
I'm so confused, why are you guys comparing LBJ to Chandler? :confused:



It's not even a contest. Chandler > LeBron. They have the same amount of titles, only Chandler did it in 2 less finals appearances.

b@llhog24
10-07-2012, 03:02 PM
Oh no...another fg% junkie.

Tyson Chandler's fg% is 68%...does that mean he is a more efficient offensive player than Lebron?

^^^^^

I'm so confused, why are you guys comparing LBJ to Chandler? :confused:



It's not even a contest. Chandler > LeBron. They have the same amount of titles, only Chandler did it in 2 less finals appearances.

The Wise One
10-07-2012, 03:06 PM
6 posts, just joined today, ready to rumble and troll from the get-go, can only mean that you're a dupe. Go away.

I disagree with you and another Laker fan about Kareem helping Dwight and I make 1 joke and all of the sudden im a troll?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 03:08 PM
I disagree with you and another Laker fan about Kareem helping Dwight and I make 1 joke and all of the sudden im a troll?

Your posts are too well constructed and your timing is too premature to get that quickly involved in a back-and-forth discussion. You are a dupe.

LAKERMANIA
10-07-2012, 03:10 PM
Nope, in that respect (Chandler vs LeBron) its all I had to say. You determine who is the better offensive player based on role, talent around said player, usage, efficiency (passing or scoring), impact, and the quantitative differences between offensive sets.

How do you determine:

1. Role
2. Impact
3. Quantitative differences between offensive sets

Also you realize that PPG, FG% are part of "offense" too right?

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-07-2012, 03:12 PM
Really??? He padded his stats against the weaker teams???HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA You have no idea what you are talking about.

Kobe was easily the MVP of the 2001 WCF against the San Antonio Spurs...the second best team in the NBA next to the Lakers. Yes the second best team, the Sixers were not as good as the Spurs that year. Kobe was the MVP against the Lakers greatest opponent that year. Shaq only had Kobe beat in the finals against the weaker Sixers. If anything, Shaq padded his stats against the weaker teams that year. http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_WCF.html

2001 Western Conference finals
Kobe: 33 ppg, 7 apg, 7 rpg, 1.5 spg, fg% 51.4, ts% 63.3
Shaq: 27 ppg, 13 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.3 bpg, fg% 54.1, ts% 63.5

Lets look at a comparison of the West Conference playoffs (where Lakers faced their BY FAR the toughest competition):

Kobe (11g): 31.6 PTS (.577 TS%), 7.0 REB, 6.2 AST, 1.6 STL, 0.5 BLK, 3.0 TOV
Shaq (11g): 29.3 PTS (.558 TS%), 15.3 REB, 2.5 AST, 0.5 STL, 1.9 BLK, 3.4 TOV

The NBA finals where Lakers faced a pathetic team that would be eliminated in first round of West conference playoffs:

Kobe ( 5g): 24.6 PTS (.501 TS%), 7.8 REB, 5.8 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.4 BLK, 3.6 TOV
Shaq ( 5g): 33.0 PTS (.575 TS%), 15.8 REB, 4.8 AST, 0.4 STL, 3.4 BLK, 4.0 TOV

Yes, Shaq DOMINATED the Finals against non-existent front court of 76'ers, and Kobe took a step back letting Shaq dominate them.

They give the Finals MVP award based on contribution in the Finals only, not throughout the playoffs, where Kobe was the obvious MVP.

BTW, for all you winshare geeks...Kobe's win share for the entire championship run was 3.8 to Shaq's 3.7.

Lets look at some more data now shall we:

2001 NBA Playoffs
Shaq - 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 55.5 FG%, 56.4 TS%
Kobe - 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 46.9 FG%, 55.5 TS%

2002 NBA Playoffs
Shaq - 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 52.9 FG%, 56.9 TS%
Kobe - 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 43.4 FG%, 51.1 TS%

Kobe led the lakers in PPG and APG through through entire Western Conference Playoffs in 2001 and 2002

2001 NBA Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG, .492 FG% 57.7 TS%
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG, .547 FG% 55.8 TS%

2002 NBA Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG, .418 FG%
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG, .510 FG%

Kobe led the Lakers in PPG and APG in 2/4 series in 2001 and 2/4 series in 2002. A total of 4/8 series both years combined.

2001 Western Conf Semifnals
2001 Western Conf Finals
2002 Western Conf 1st Round
2002 Western Conf Semifinals

Kobe led the Lakers in Field Goals Made in the 2nd Half and 4th Quarters of the 2002 NBA Playoffs

2002 NBA Playoffs - 2nd Half+OT
Bryant - 97/214 FG, 17/37 3PT, 45.3 FG%, 49.3 eFG%, 45.9 3PT% in 19 games
O'Neal - 85/186 FG, 0/0 3PT, 45.7 FG%, 45.7 eFG%, 0.0 3PT% in 19 games

2002 NBA Playoffs - 4th Quarter+OT
Bryant - 52/106 FG, 12/24 3PT, 49.1 FG%, 54.7 eFG%, 50.0 3PT% in 19 games
O'Neal - 32/85 FG, 0/0 3PT, 37.6 FG%, 37.6 eFG%, 0.0 3PT% in 18 games

Best post of this thread by far, now lets hope Andrew32 and all the Lebron nut huggers and Kobe as well since most of them can't keep Kobe out of their mouths can shut up about how shaq was #1 haha yeah against the weak Kobe was the true MVP in 01 and 02

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-07-2012, 03:15 PM
Yeah this notion that Kobe is going put the teams winning a championship because of selfishness is total baloney at this point in his life he is ring chasing. I don't expect him to roll completely over but he is going to do whatever necessary to get that 6th ring.

Kobe ring chasing hahaha bs he ain't Lebron he ain't jumping ship, ring chasing happens when you are on your last legs and are playing a limited role on a championship team! Last time I checked Kobe was still a top 5 player and MVP candidate so gtfo with that bs. And if the lakers do win a championship this year it will have as much to do with Kobe then anyone else on the team

b@llhog24
10-07-2012, 03:31 PM
How do you determine:

Ok I'll be using Tyson and LeBron so that the comparison stays constant. I don't have alot of time so I'll try to make this brief.


1. Role

For instance in the case of Tyson vs LeBron, Tyson doesn't carry the same responsibilties offensively as LeBron does due to the fact that he is his teams defensive anchor. The fact that you can get points efficiently out of Chandler is to be seen more as a plus rather than his functional role within a team. Thus by virture of being his teams main offensive option (which statistically is normally determined by a combination of USG rates, Offensive Ratings, TS%, eFG%, ORB%, etc) he trumps Chandler who while being more efficient in some metrics simply doesn't make use of the ball enough to be in this conversation.


2. Impact

Intangibles that offense produces, a ton of people don't realize exactly how valuable a good pick and role big is in this league. By Tyson's rolling to the rim he automatically occupies a player on the court no matter how inept he is offensively for distance because it gives him an avenue to eliminate that distance and get to the basket. But counting that and put backs and offensive rebounds, we're left wanting more. Passing efficiently does wonders for other players on the courts efficiency because it takes the ball away from their hands which makes for more efficient movements. A pull up of the dribble shot because an uncontested 15 footer. Add in the drawing of double teams, and the improvement an offense makes once a certain player steps on the court (like how Lamar basically helped your offense run smoothly whenever his head was set on right).



3. Quantitative differences between offensive sets


Some shots are better than others, the aesthetic value it provides means basically nothing. 3's are better than mid range shots and open shots are better than contested shots. Shots at the rim are more valuable than floaters since they can cause a player get to the line which in turn forces a coach to change his gameplan.


Also you realize that PPG, FG% are part of "offense" too right?

Yep, but its fairly misleading when not accounting for pace and the types of shots taken. Its not about draining buckets but putting points on the board efficiently. Scenario: If a player A shots 2/6 and a player B shoots 3/6 we would say that player B had the better game right? But what if I told you that all of player A's shots were 3 pointers? His FG% of 33% looks pretty bad but who cares if he puts the same amount of points on the board with the same amount of shots?

Andrew32
10-07-2012, 04:01 PM
best post of this thread by far, now lets hope andrew32 and all the lebron nut huggers and kobe as well since most of them can't keep kobe out of their mouths can shut up about how shaq was #1 haha yeah against the weak kobe was the true mvp in 01 and 02

playoff per

a's (main star) :
shaq (00-02) : 29
jordan (91-93 + 96-98) : 28.53

b's (side-kicks) :
kobe (00-02) : 21
pippen (91-93 + 96-98) : 19.5


2009 gasol : 19 / 11 / 2.5apg on 62%ts (22 per) (.221 wsp48)
2000 kobe : 21 / 4.5 / 4apg on 52%ts (19.3 per) (.115 wsp48)

2010 gasol : 20 / 11 / 3.5apg on 60%ts (24 per) (.224 wsp48)
2002 kobe : 26 / 6 / 4.5apg on 51%ts (20.5 per) (.148 wsp48)

:o
Shaq was statistically better in 7/9 WCSeries and MVP of 8/9 WCSeries.
Keep living in your fantasy world you homers.

P Harvy
10-07-2012, 04:26 PM
I love how Kobe describes himself in his own quote: "some people are just very, very dumb"

yes Kobe you are.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 04:26 PM
I love how Kobe describes himself in his own quote: "some people are just very, very dumb"

yes Kobe you are.

So dumb....5 rings.

You're Welcome.

P Harvy
10-07-2012, 04:33 PM
So dumb....5 rings.

You're Welcome.

What does 5 rings have to do with intelligence? Some of the dumbest people in the world can play basketball better than anyone. Doesn't mean they are smart. Lets use some common sense in our posts.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 04:36 PM
What does 5 rings have to do with intelligence? Some of the dumbest people in the world can play basketball better than anyone. Doesn't mean they are smart. Lets use some common sense in our posts.

Are we talking about on the court or off the court?

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 05:37 PM
I disagree with you and another Laker fan about Kareem helping Dwight and I make 1 joke and all of the sudden im a troll?

You've been a troll.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-07-2012, 08:29 PM
my goodness, the homerism on this thread is just sad.

same with the haterism.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-07-2012, 08:33 PM
How so?

Everyone does everything differently. It's not like the Heat where Wade and LeBron are basically do similar things on the court.


Nash likes to pass, Kobe likes to score, Dwight likes to rebound and block shots, Metta likes to defend, and Pau likes to score + facilitate from the post.

i understand that, but there still is chemistry issues.
Dwight doesnt only rebound, i have never seen a guy go 0 points and 20 rebounds.

they all need to get used to each other on the offensive end and the defensive end as well, they have to realize how good each other's one on one defense is, so they know whether to sag off of their defender to help the other player defend.

on offense, nash has to get the ball to their man easily otherwise this will be the same lakers team as last year except a little better on the defensive end.

like any other team's first year, there will be a mesh up issue. especially during the beginning of the season.

i do agree however that the miami heat and los angeles lakers are uncomparable because of the type of players involved.

it would seem to be easier for the lakers to mesh, time will tell, but its common for them to go through issues, again, during the beginning of the season at least.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-07-2012, 08:35 PM
You state your hopes as facts and that's the problem with you Heat fans.

no i state common sense as facts, whats the problem with you "Laker fans" is that you can't take constructive criticism.
I didnt say anything as if the team would fail or blah blah, I am simply stating what EVERY ANALYST says.. in the beginning, there will be chemistry issues.

so settle down, no reason to get all defensive.

ink
10-07-2012, 08:38 PM
i understand that, but there still is chemistry issues.
Dwight doesnt only rebound, i have never seen a guy go 0 points and 20 rebounds.

they all need to get used to each other on the offensive end and the defensive end as well, they have to realize how good each other's one on one defense is, so they know whether to sag off of their defender to help the other player defend.

on offense, nash has to get the ball to their man easily otherwise this will be the same lakers team as last year except a little better on the defensive end.

like any other team's first year, there will be a mesh up issue. especially during the beginning of the season.

i do agree however that the miami heat and los angeles lakers are uncomparable because of the type of players involved.

it would seem to be easier for the lakers to mesh, time will tell, but its common for them to go through issues, again, during the beginning of the season at least.

Really? They haven't played a game yet. There have been no reports of any "chemistry issues" and the LA media is not exactly shy about reporting "chemistry issues".

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-07-2012, 08:43 PM
Really? They haven't played a game yet. There have been no reports of any "chemistry issues" and the LA media is not exactly shy about reporting "chemistry issues".

I was simply talking about on-court chemistry.. for instance Kobe is used to having the ball a lot, as does nash.

gasol would have to play well with howard to know when to call for the ball, etc.

the whole reason that they havent played a game together should be in itself proof that in the beginning there will be chemistry issues lol
it happened during boston's big 3, heats big 3, lakers big 5 (with malone and payton), heat with shaq + wade, any new super team,.. so excuse me if i take history's side and say the obvious.. that in the beginning, there will be chemistry issues.. this is normal, idk why we are even having this conversation?

ink
10-07-2012, 09:09 PM
I was simply talking about on-court chemistry.. for instance Kobe is used to having the ball a lot, as does nash.

gasol would have to play well with howard to know when to call for the ball, etc.

Kobe has played a large part of his career in the triangle and the #1 option. No surprise he is used to having the ball a lot. Ever seen him on the Olympic team deferring to others there? Yup, no chemistry problems.

And Pau is a phenomenal teammate. He will excel at working with someone as dominant as Dwight.


the whole reason that they havent played a game together should be in itself proof that in the beginning there will be chemistry issues lol
it happened during boston's big 3, heats big 3, lakers big 5 (with malone and payton), heat with shaq + wade, any new super team,..

Ahh, so it's common. And not related to Kobe. Thought so. :)

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 09:13 PM
I was simply talking about on-court chemistry.. for instance Kobe is used to having the ball a lot, as does nash.

gasol would have to play well with howard to know when to call for the ball, etc.

the whole reason that they havent played a game together should be in itself proof that in the beginning there will be chemistry issues lol
it happened during boston's big 3, heats big 3, lakers big 5 (with malone and payton), heat with shaq + wade, any new super team,.. so excuse me if i take history's side and say the obvious.. that in the beginning, there will be chemistry issues.. this is normal, idk why we are even having this conversation?

I think we take offense to your statements because you word them incorrectly. Stating the Lakers will have chemistry "issues" is different from them just merely getting used to each other or gelling.

In each of your post you state that they will have "issues" and that is why i said that that's what you're hoping. That is not a fact. That is what you hope is going to happen. Maybe you would like to clarify your statement again using different terms and then maybe people wouldn't think you were a Laker hating Heat fan like the rest. :rolleyes:

And no it didn't happen with Boston's big 3 nor did it happen with Shaq and Wade. Boston's big 3 were suited perfect for eachother because player played their role to perfection. They won the title the first year and as I recall, they blew out a whole lot of teams to start that season. Shaq and Wade didn't have any issues either. The only team that did were the Lakers in 04' and the Heat's big 3. So if you're going to side with history, at least know your history.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-07-2012, 09:21 PM
lol oh ok. trust me im a heat fan, and an NBA fan.

The last thing I do is hate on any player.

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 09:26 PM
lol oh ok. trust me im a heat fan, and an NBA fan.

The last thing I do is hate on any player.

But you can't deny you hope the Lakers will have issues. That goes without saying doesn't it? The Lakers are a threat to your team now and if that wasn't true then you wouldn't even be posting in this thread.

ink
10-07-2012, 09:29 PM
I think we take offense to your statements because you word them incorrectly. Stating the Lakers will have chemistry "issues" is different from them just merely getting used to each other or gelling.

In each of your post you state that they will have "issues" and that is why i said that that's what you're hoping. That is not a fact. That is what you hope is going to happen. Maybe you would like to clarify your statement again using different terms and then maybe people wouldn't think you were a Laker hating Heat fan like the rest. :rolleyes:

And no it didn't happen with Boston's big 3 nor did it happen with Shaq and Wade. Boston's big 3 were suited perfect for eachother because player played their role to perfection. They won the title the first year and as I recall, they blew out a whole lot of teams to start that season. Shaq and Wade didn't have any issues either. The only team that did were the Lakers in 04' and the Heat's big 3. So if you're going to side with history, at least know your history.

This.

beasted86
10-07-2012, 09:32 PM
Just to make sure I have my logic math right....

03 Kobe > 03 Shaq
03 Kobe + 03 Shaq = Lose
03 Shaq > 06 Shaq
06 Wade + 06 Shaq = Win
06 Wade >>>>>> 03 Kobe

#amirightthoughtso

ink
10-07-2012, 09:37 PM
Just to make sure I have my logic math right....

03 Kobe > 03 Shaq
03 Kobe + 03 Shaq = Lose
03 Shaq > 06 Shaq
06 Wade + 06 Shaq = Win
06 Wade >>>>>> 03 Kobe

#amirightthoughtso

Wow, off topic and ridiculous logic too. Well done. Of course we all know that those three players existed in a complete vacuum right?

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 09:42 PM
Just to make sure I have my logic math right....

03 Kobe > 03 Shaq
03 Kobe + 03 Shaq = Lose
03 Shaq > 06 Shaq
06 Wade + 06 Shaq = Win
06 Wade >>>>>> 03 Kobe

#amirightthoughtso

I am the one who made the hashtags, the "You're Welcome", nothing is imminent etc. cool around here.


So if you want to use any of those, you need to take my permission. Got it!? :p

LAKERMANIA
10-07-2012, 09:49 PM
Just to make sure I have my logic math right....

03 Kobe > 03 Shaq
03 Kobe + 03 Shaq = Lose
03 Shaq > 06 Shaq
06 Wade + 06 Shaq = Win
06 Wade >>>>>> 03 Kobe

#amirightthoughtso

5 rings.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-07-2012, 09:53 PM
6 rings.

:clap:

Supreme LA
10-07-2012, 10:51 PM
Kobe looking unselfish right now and Nash is looking pretty damn amazing too. I'm really in awe of the difference Steve makes for this Laker team.

fresh prince
10-08-2012, 12:03 AM
I was with him up until the "I don't like having the ball" comment. Every superstar likes having the ball. I don't know why he would have said that. Probly just got too worked up at the end of his rant. Everything else I agree with though. If he truly was selfish, he wouldn't have five championships. Hard to argue that...though I'm sure many on here will try..

The quote leaves alot of the context out. What he went on to say was that he doesn't like having the ball and having to facilitate the offense and create for others.He said while he has that in his game its not what he does best. Kobe went onto say that with Nash handling the creating he is glad because he will be free to just run routes. I'LL be like Megatron Kobe said.

basketfan4life
10-08-2012, 06:58 AM
thats not the point. think of the championships they could have won if he was less selfish

For the first time in my life, i'm seeing a player getting criticized because he won 5 rings, not more. I don't know which years they are. We can argue 3 years i think, 2003-2004 and 2008, and to me, all of their opponents that knocked the Lakers out were better teams, also all 3 of them(not exactly sure of 2003 spurs team stats wise) had legendary defenses. I really don't get this.

thenaj17
10-08-2012, 08:11 AM
"I don't like having the ball" = I don't want to handle the ball, dribble it up the court, and have to set up the offense. Just let me get to my sweet spots and I'll let it fly.

Yup, definitely this!

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 09:23 AM
For the first time in my life, i'm seeing a player getting criticized because he won 5 rings, not more. I don't know which years they are. We can argue 3 years i think, 2003-2004 and 2008, and to me, all of their opponents that knocked the Lakers out were better teams, also all 3 of them(not exactly sure of 2003 spurs team stats wise) had legendary defenses. I really don't get this.
Agree with the years you listed (03, 04, 08) except you should add 2012.
They could have perhaps beaten OKC if Kobe played more team oriented ball throughout the entire season instead of focusing on his ppg.

The whole team was a mess in 2011 so I can't blame that on the Kobster.

GREATNESS ONE
10-08-2012, 09:30 AM
Kobe !!!! Living the Boss life!

basketfan4life
10-08-2012, 10:03 AM
Agree with the years you listed (03, 04, 08) except you should add 2012.
They could have perhaps beaten OKC if Kobe played more team oriented ball throughout the entire season instead of focusing on his ppg.

The whole team was a mess in 2011 so I can't blame that on the Kobster.

I don't know, at the beginning of the 2012 i was hopeful about the lakers but as the season went by, you could see Lakers had no chance winning it all.

Game 4 of the OKC series, they came back from 10+ i think and during that comeback, i tought,"wow, OKC is simply better than the Lakers", when they need to shut down, they shutted down, when they need to score they just scored.

Andrew32
10-08-2012, 10:05 AM
I don't know, at the beginning of the 2012 i was hopeful about the lakers but as the season went by, you could see Lakers had no chance winning it all.

Game 4 of the OKC series, they came back from 10+ i think and during that comeback, i tought,"wow, OKC is simply better than the Lakers", when they need to shut down, they shutted down, when they need to score they just scored.
Fair enough.

I just felt Kobe could have perhaps given more offensive responsibility to Gasol/Bynum during the regular season and if that worked and created a more balanced Celtic type offense it might have made them less predictable and harder to defend in the playoffs.

In some of those OKC games it seemed like Kobe was just trying to do it all himself which is gutsy but not necessarily the smart move if you wanna win.

Kobe has too much mileage to be playing 40mpg and shooting so much.

basketfan4life
10-08-2012, 10:27 AM
Fair enough.

I just felt Kobe could have perhaps given more offensive responsibility to Gasol/Bynum during the regular season and if that worked and created a more balanced Celtic type offense it might have made them less predictable and harder to defend in the playoffs.

In some of those OKC games it seemed like Kobe was just trying to do it all himself which is gutsy but not necessarily the smart move if you wanna win.

Kobe has too much mileage to be playing 40mpg and shooting so much.

While i can agree with what you say, Gasol and Bynum isn't always there. They play hard when they feel like it. That is why Dwight over Bynum is such a great upgrade. He takes the game seriously.

Kobe criticizing them both on public only effects them for 1 game, they play hard, then the very next game they are not there again. Their mindset is about too much variables, be it their relationships with their girlfriends or anything you can imagine.

JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 05:33 PM
Just to make sure I have my logic math right....

03 Kobe > 03 Shaq
03 Kobe + 03 Shaq = Lose
03 Shaq > 06 Shaq
06 Wade + 06 Shaq = Win
06 Wade >>>>>> 03 Kobe

#amirightthoughtso

Well you can say 2006 Wade is better than 2003 Kobe but not sure what that has to do with theme here.

ink
10-08-2012, 07:45 PM
For those interested in some reasons why Kobe will be used differently this year and won't have problems with so-called "selfishness", this article is excellent. Warning: this is really only for fans of basketball, not for those interested in the cult of the personality and the ongoing social media spat between fans of superstars.

The article talks about Kobe's role in the Princeton offense Eddie Jordan is setting up and what his role has been in the past:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/la-sp-1007-lakers-offense-20121007,0,691967.story

JordansBulls
10-08-2012, 10:29 PM
For those interested in some reasons why Kobe will be used differently this year and won't have problems with so-called "selfishness", this article is excellent. Warning: this is really only for fans of basketball, not for those interested in the cult of the personality and the ongoing social media spat between fans of superstars.

The article talks about Kobe's role in the Princeton offense Eddie Jordan is setting up and what his role has been in the past:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/la-sp-1007-lakers-offense-20121007,0,691967.story

Good article.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-08-2012, 10:30 PM
I think Kobe needs to retire so Andrew32, Chronz, naps, el hidalgo and everyone else can have a good night's sleep. Obviously neither of those guys haven't had a goodnite's sleep for the last 16 yrs (or less, if any of them are even above the age of 16).