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View Full Version : no place for loyalty in pro sports.



smith&wesson
10-04-2012, 03:53 PM
My question is why do we expect players to be loyal to bosses and franchises that sign them to contracts? These same owners and franchises will trade the players if they feel they can improve and there is no loyalty there. But once a contract expires and a player leaves for a more promising opportunity they are not loyal. In any other profession you may do as you please and work for who ever you want if your contract is up. Why is it different in sports in fans eyes?

The following are just examples. You don’t have to read all of it. But here’s a few scenarios I think should prove there is no room for loyalty in sports.

- If kg remained loyal to the t.wolves he still would not have a championship. Was he wrong for leaving for Boston for a chance at a title? i dont think so. i think he made the right move for his career.

- If ray Allen never joined the Celtics he would never have had a ship either. So why is it wrong for him to join the heat in pursuit of another one :confused:

- Kobe has been with the Lakers since he was drafted. When Shaq left and the Lakers had a couple of crappy seasons, Kobe threatened to leave unless the Lakers got more talent around him. They got Gasol and won 2 ships. Doesn’t it seem now that Kobe was smart for doing what he did? His willingness to break loyalty to the Lakers could easily be the reason why they won 2 more ships.

- Dirks loyalty has backfired. Since winning the championship 2 years ago, Dallas blew up their team and are now lucky to get to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Why wouldn’t Cuban increase the chances of dirk and the Mavs winning again rather then decreasing them? Dirks loyalty has hurt his legacy if anything. Win a team wins a ship you don’t blow it up the very next season. If anything you add some talent to help them win again.

- R. Miller is ship less. Stockton is ship less. Jazz and pacer fans love them for their loyalty its just too bad loyalty doesn’t = success in pro sports.

- If king James stayed in Cleveland would he have a championship today? Would he have a finals mvp? These are things you need to be mentioned amongst the greatest. Should simply have stayed loyal and missed the opportunity to be mentioned amongst the greatest. We all know ones not going to cut it either. He has to continue to win. Would he have had the opportunity to win multiple times in Cleveland? Not with mo will and Jamison. If anything he made the right move for his career.

- Nash remained far too loyal to PHX. After Marion was shipped out, stat was shipped out perhaps Nash should have left at that point as well. The suns used Nash to sell seats for years even when they had 0 contention hopes Nash remained loyal and never asked for a trade. A 2x MVP being used to sell tickets. Its actually really sad if you think about it. Now at the age of 39 he is finally going to contend again.

- Would bosh be a champion today if he remained with the raptors? Or would he be on a team that can’t pass the first round if their lives depended on it. Who could blame him for making the choice he made right?

- paul pierce was loyal and has a ship. but boston sucked for a long time before kg and allen showed up. if those two were loyal to their respective teams. pierce wouldnt be a champion today unless he broke loyalty himself and joined other elite players to win. or other elite players joined him like allen or kg did.

- The one scenario I can think of is Tim Duncan. He has been loyal and it certainly has paid off as he has several championships and mvp’s etc. But he has also been lucky. Drafted by the spurs, learned from D.Robinson, playing for pop, playing for a franchise that has always drafted well. Never missed the playoffs, and always considered a contender. I think I would be loyal in that scenario too. But how often does that happen really ?

abe_froman
10-04-2012, 04:01 PM
why do we? because as fans we see ourselves as part of the team(see when talking about my team,i say my team when in fact it isnt)but we see all of the organizational,local media and fan involvement as part of one big collective effort. so leaving isnt just a rejection of a gm or owner ,but a rejection of us fans.even though we arent part ownership of the team,we feel part ownership of it anyways as its who we support,stay loyal to through our life,give money to,ect.

torocan
10-04-2012, 04:10 PM
It's a simple double-standard.

Fans want the best of both worlds.

They want players to show them loyalty and pass up personal opportunities, while at the same time many of them want the "flexibility" to trade them for better "pieces" at the first opportunity.

I look at it fairly simply. Teams and players have an employer/employee relationship. When the employer and employee show loyalty, hopefully it will be reciprocated. When it is not, don't expect one side to be doormats indefinitely.

And while team loyalty counts for something, in the end to a player it's just a job. Just as to the owner it's ultimately a business.

Fans like to point out that it's a "business" when management trades players, but don't like to be reminded that it's a business when the players want to leave.

And I don't expect that to ever change as long as fans are invested in their teams.

smith&wesson
10-04-2012, 04:20 PM
why do we? because as fans we see ourselves as part of the team(see when talking about my team,i say my team when in fact it isnt)but we see all of the organizational,local media and fan involvement as part of one big collective effort. so leaving isnt just a rejection of a gm or owner ,but a rejection of us fans.even though we arent part ownership of the team,we feel part ownership of it anyways as its who we support,stay loyal to through our life,give money to,ect.

but when a certain player is traded and the trade is considered an upgrade for your team how come that same sence of loyalty is not displayed ?

smith&wesson
10-04-2012, 04:24 PM
It's a simple double-standard.
Fans want the best of both worlds.

They want players to show them loyalty and pass up personal opportunities, while at the same time many of them want the "flexibility" to trade them for better "pieces" at the first opportunity.

I look at it fairly simply. Teams and players have an employer/employee relationship. When the employer and employee show loyalty, hopefully it will be reciprocated. When it is not, don't expect one side to be doormats indefinitely.

And while team loyalty counts for something, in the end to a player it's just a job. Just as to the owner it's ultimately a business.

Fans like to point out that it's a "business" when management trades players, but don't like to be reminded that it's a business when the players want to leave.

And I don't expect that to ever change as long as fans are invested in their teams.

your right, and its time we accepted the fact.

when a player leaves even if its for a rival team like ray allen, maybe we should consider the fact that these guys are playing for money and legacy's. not love and support.

abe_froman
10-04-2012, 04:25 PM
but when a certain player is traded and the trade is considered an upgrade for your team how come that same sence of loyalty is not displayed ?

again,because we see ourselves as part of the organization(aka side with management),because the team was there before we were born and will be there after we die.players come and go,the franchise is the mainstay in our lives

i'll use my own fav team as an example.derrick rose will be there 15-20 years if lucky,the bulls will be there when i'm 10 and when i'm 65.so when picking who to throw my support behind it's the one who will be there representing my city/region always.its like family,you side with blood almost always because your uncle will always be your uncle ,the chicago bulls,nyk,ect will always be there in that city/region(in our minds,not always in reality)they wont leave us,they cant(again thats what we believe because of all the years there,but isnt always the case in reality)

kdspurman
10-04-2012, 04:36 PM
I think your last scenario shows it is possible, but it requires a whole lot of stuff to go right for the organization and having the right kind of franchise player.

There's a lot of talk about guys like Rose and Durant now having the same loyalty and attitude as Duncan does/did. It's still early in their careers, but I think either one of them are capable of winning a championship and staying with their teams. Probably Durant more so than Rose because the team that's there seems a bit more stable than Chicago, but there are certainly opportunities for both.

The media does not help portray these players in the best way. Dwight for example has now been made into one of the biggest douches in the game, but prior to the whole free agency just about everyone loved him. Then Lebron with "the decision" was not a good look at all either. I think when a player leaves respectfully and has been committed to the team and wants to win, some fans can accept that. I would bet when Nash returns to Phoenix he'll get a nice ovation because he's been so classy all these years and handled himself well. Same with Reggie had he decided he wanted to join the Celtics a few years back if/when he returned to Indiana.

I think it comes down to the individual, how they leave, and the way they carry themselves about it. There is another thing severely lacking with a lot of these athletes and that is maturity and class.

JasonJohnHorn
10-04-2012, 04:55 PM
There is loyality in certain situations and certain teams and players have shown they are loyal.

The Jazz, as an organization, have illustrated they are loyal. They offered Malone almost twenty million to return to the Jazz when he went to LAL. Most fans aren't upset at Malone for leaving, because he gave Utah a lot of years (almost two decades) and he was winding down his career and wanted a shot at a ring. But he was loyal to his franchise even though he left. Stockton and Sloan were both loyal to Utah, and Utah was loyal to both of them in return. When Sloan was having issues with D-Will, they didn't ask him to step down. In fact, then Sloan DID step down, they shipped out D-Will.

Boston has shown that it is loyal to it's players. They've allowed a number of HOF players to retire as Celtics even though they could have traded some for younger players or draft picks. The Allen situation was a little different. Allen wore two different jerseys before he got to Boston. He was a player they traded for, and so, didn't have as special a relationship with Boston as players like Bird and Russell.

There it loyalty and there is reality. Boston for exmaple tried winning with Pierce for years, and they weren't getting it done. Both parties wanted to win and boht of them considered parting ways, but Ainge pulled two rabbits out of his hat and managed to bring in Garnett and Allen.

Garnett was loyal to Minny. He gave them his best years and never publically demanded a trade. He wanted to win, and after a number of years it was clear that Minny's front office was incapable of putting a winning team around Garnett. Garnett let them know privately that he wanted to be on a contender, and they work out a trade that was benificial to both parties.

LBJ. Vince Carter. Tracey McGrady. These guys are not loyal. That said, a lot of teams are not loyal, so sometimes you have to look out for yourselves. NY for example, shipped Pat Ewing out of town for next to nothing. Then when he was interested in coaching, they wouldn't even give him an interivew. I don't see NY as a loyal franchise. They did the same with David Lee and Zach Randolph. Both those guys played well for NY, but NY shipped out Randolph to make salary cap space to chace after Bosh and Amare, then let David Lee go for the same reason. I know they were hoping to sign James, but, Lee really put a lot of work into NY. I don't see LAL as particularily loyal either after the Shaq situation.

Indy, yeah... they are loyal. Guys like Miller, and stockton and Malone, they may not have rings, but they are HOF players and they had special careers and have nothing to prove.

Detroit has proved that is it usually pretty loyal (though I was disapoitned in them not matching Chi-town's offer for Wallace). But they let Thomas and Dumars both retire in the jerseys they started in even though they could have traded them off for yonger players or draft picks.

Some people walk away with rings some don't. Some players are special and develop a special bond with the franchise and city they player for. LBJ had that in Cleveland. So when they break that bond it's hard for fans to swallow.

I don't blame guys who look out for themselves, because that is what most franchises do, but i also have a lot of respect for guys who stay loyal to teams that do well by them.

Pluvious
10-04-2012, 04:58 PM
your right, and its time we accepted the fact.

when a player leaves even if its for a rival team like ray allen, maybe we should consider the fact that these guys are playing for money and legacy's. not love and support.

That's not it either. They go somewhere because its where they want to be...for any # of reasons. Money, feeling wanted (did Ray Allen really feel wanted anymore?), legacy, the city itself and geography, as well as any # of other reasons fans may not be aware of.

The main thing to look for is when a player is being a D-Bag. Then you can be upset with them. Allen, Nash...these guys have always been class acts. Garnett, Pierce...not so much so why are fans listening to them? Feels like Bullying by those guys to me.

And guys like Lebron, Carmelo, and Dwight handled things really poorly and deserve what they get in all honesty. Forcing your way out, doing everything for yourself with no regard for your team, etc. Fans have a right to be mad at that type of thing really. But just moving on because its time...what's wrong with that???

smith&wesson
10-04-2012, 05:01 PM
I think your last scenario shows it is possible, but it requires a whole lot of stuff to go right for the organization and having the right kind of franchise player.

There's a lot of talk about guys like Rose and Durant now having the same loyalty and attitude as Duncan does/did. It's still early in their careers, but I think either one of them are capable of winning a championship and staying with their teams. Probably Durant more so than Rose because the team that's there seems a bit more stable than Chicago, but there are certainly opportunities for both.



The media does not help portray these players in the best way. Dwight for example has now been made into one of the biggest douches in the game, but prior to the whole free agency just about everyone loved him. Then Lebron with "the decision" was not a good look at all either. I think when a player leaves respectfully and has been committed to the team and wants to win, some fans can accept that. I would bet when Nash returns to Phoenix he'll get a nice ovation because he's been so classy all these years and handled himself well. Same with Reggie had he decided he wanted to join the Celtics a few years back if/when he returned to Indiana.

I think it comes down to the individual, how they leave, and the way they carry themselves about it. There is another thing severely lacking with a lot of these athletes and that is maturity and class.

im not talking about the guys that are fortunate enough to play for contenders years after year. im talking about the guys who leave their teams to make those contenders who they are. like ray allen and kg going to boston, or shaq going to L.A, howard forcing a trade to go to contender, lebron going to the heat etc..

the spurs havent missed the playoffs once since duncan was drafted. he learned from david robinson. he is coached by one of the best the nba has ever seen. he has played with some great/elite players. he has won championships. why would he want to leave ? to me this is a one in a million type scenerio that no player should ever want out of.

would duncan have stayed if circumstances were different ? if tim duncan was drafted by the twolves instead of kg do you he would still be in a t.wolves uniform today ? i think he would have left before kg did.

i remember a time when i thought for sure 100% kg and iverson would retire with their respective teams.

If durant and rose played for teams that were missing the playoffs or getting swept in the first round would you be suprised if they asked for trades or lef in free agency ? i wouldnt be. i would think they are dumb if they didnt. why let a franchise make a boat load of money of you while your winning nothing year after year ?

xxplayerxx23
10-04-2012, 05:08 PM
Ofcourse it makes sense for the player to go to a contender,if they so choose too. It hurts as fans but as a player you have to do what's best for you and if thats a championship then I have no problem with that.

HesterJordan23
10-04-2012, 05:08 PM
world is run by money.. is it the love of the money or the game if you truely love the game then you will take what you have and get that championship no matter what. by doing that you create leaders and create bonds friendships and loyalty.

i dont just leave my job at the fire station because there is a raise somehwere else.now as a fan you can't expect for everyone to stay where there at and no one leaves.. cuz nobody is perfect..but the nba players seem to think if you can't succeed and beat them then you might as well join them.. shows there character

smith&wesson
10-04-2012, 05:27 PM
That's not it either. They go somewhere because its where they want to be...for any # of reasons. Money, feeling wanted (did Ray Allen really feel wanted anymore?), legacy, the city itself and geography, as well as any # of other reasons fans may not be aware of.

The main thing to look for is when a player is being a D-Bag. Then you can be upset with them. Allen, Nash...these guys have always been class acts. Garnett, Pierce...not so much so why are fans listening to them? Feels like Bullying by those guys to me.

And guys like Lebron, Carmelo, and Dwight handled things really poorly and deserve what they get in all honesty. Forcing your way out, doing everything for yourself with no regard for your team, etc. Fans have a right to be mad at that type of thing really. But just moving on because its time...what's wrong with that???

well what is the difference ? what did being a class act achieve for steve nash ? He made tons of money for a penny penching owner. nash should have left the same year amare did. whats the point in sticking through a rebuild when your 35+ years old and still one of the best at your position ?

lebron and howard may have handled things poorly. but can you question their ultimate decision? they are both in 10x better scenerios then they were in on their previous teams.



Ofcourse it makes sense for the player to go to a contender,if they so choose too. It hurts as fans but as a player you have to do what's best for you and if thats a championship then I have no problem with that.

I agree

smith&wesson
10-04-2012, 05:38 PM
world is run by money.. is it the love of the money or the game if you truely love the game then you will take what you have and get that championship no matter what. by doing that you create leaders and create bonds friendships and loyalty.

i dont just leave my job at the fire station because there is a raise somehwere else.now as a fan you can't expect for everyone to stay where there at and no one leaves.. cuz nobody is perfect..but the nba players seem to think if you can't succeed and beat them then you might as well join them.. shows there character

why not ? I apreciate bonds, friendships, loyatly etc.. but the fact of the matter is i go to work to get paid.

any opportunity i get to make more money to do the samething i do, i will take. im driven by money so that is where my loyalty remains. unless i had to relocate or something that i would consider an inconvenience.

there's no such thing as championships for us. only money and the opportunity to make more of it. so if thats the goal then im content with the friendships i have outside of my business life.

StarvingKnick22
10-04-2012, 05:52 PM
But if they all built up to it The celtics wouldnt have won either. Not everbody can win. And it should be that way, preferably like 1980s and 90s B-ball.

Corey
10-04-2012, 06:16 PM
Loyalty is fan-driven in most cases.

At the end of the day, it's a business. Both the players and executives have to put themselves in the best position to succeed.

kdspurman
10-04-2012, 08:02 PM
im not talking about the guys that are fortunate enough to play for contenders years after year. im talking about the guys who leave their teams to make those contenders who they are. like ray allen and kg going to boston, or shaq going to L.A, howard forcing a trade to go to contender, lebron going to the heat etc..

the spurs havent missed the playoffs once since duncan was drafted. he learned from david robinson. he is coached by one of the best the nba has ever seen. he has played with some great/elite players. he has won championships. why would he want to leave ? to me this is a one in a million type scenerio that no player should ever want out of.

would duncan have stayed if circumstances were different ? if tim duncan was drafted by the twolves instead of kg do you he would still be in a t.wolves uniform today ? i think he would have left before kg did.

i remember a time when i thought for sure 100% kg and iverson would retire with their respective teams.

If durant and rose played for teams that were missing the playoffs or getting swept in the first round would you be suprised if they asked for trades or lef in free agency ? i wouldnt be. i would think they are dumb if they didnt. why let a franchise make a boat load of money of you while your winning nothing year after year ?

I hear you but what my point was it's about the way a person goes about it. Sure you don't have to have respect or class when you leave an organization you've been with and have been the face of the franchise, but that kind of thing goes a long way. Just look at like the way Nash left vs like Lebron. One guy was hated for a year and still is while Nash will likely face little to no backlash.

Just like a job, do you have to be respectful if you are at a job for several years and have no real future and no room for growth? No, but you can be courteous and give them a certain level of respect and be up front about it. Of course you could just leave for your own benefit and not give much if any notice, but that's what I was talking about some athletes lacking respect and class.

The way a person acts and the respect they show will determine the amount of backlash. Like Ray Allen, always been a pretty stand up guy. Boston fans are tough and will let him have it, but he was only there a few years, and had the right to after being almost dealt and not feeling valuable to the team.

I don't blame some guys for leaving, just remember all the fans that pay good money to watch them play on a nightly basis and buy their apparel, merchandise, etc... As athletes they should be mindful of that, and if they're not, well be prepared to get the backlash Lebron/Dwight will get and have gotten.

Sixerlover
10-04-2012, 08:08 PM
world is run by money.. is it the love of the money or the game if you truely love the game then you will take what you have and get that championship no matter what. by doing that you create leaders and create bonds friendships and loyalty.

i dont just leave my job at the fire station because there is a raise somehwere else.now as a fan you can't expect for everyone to stay where there at and no one leaves.. cuz nobody is perfect..but the nba players seem to think if you can't succeed and beat them then you might as well join them.. shows there character

Huh? So if you go to a better opportunity to win you don't love the game? I disagree 100% if that was your point

smith&wesson
10-04-2012, 08:43 PM
I hear you but what my point was it's about the way a person goes about it. Sure you don't have to have respect or class when you leave an organization you've been with and have been the face of the franchise, but that kind of thing goes a long way. Just look at like the way Nash left vs like Lebron. One guy was hated for a year and still is while Nash will likely face little to no backlash.

Just like a job, do you have to be respectful if you are at a job for several years and have no real future and no room for growth? No, but you can be courteous and give them a certain level of respect and be up front about it. Of course you could just leave for your own benefit and not give much if any notice, but that's what I was talking about some athletes lacking respect and class.

The way a person acts and the respect they show will determine the amount of backlash. Like Ray Allen, always been a pretty stand up guy. Boston fans are tough and will let him have it, but he was only there a few years, and had the right to after being almost dealt and not feeling valuable to the team.

I don't blame some guys for leaving, just remember all the fans that pay good money to watch them play on a nightly basis and buy their apparel, merchandise, etc... As athletes they should be mindful of that, and if they're not, well be prepared to get the backlash Lebron/Dwight will get and have gotten.

coincidentally nash and lebron both played for small market teams who have cheap owners. I beleive that lebron made the right decision for his career and nash made the wrong one for his regardless of how they handled those decisions.

last time nash had a legit chance at winning was the last year amare was there and they reached the wcf's. after making the wcf's your gm lets the 2nd best player on your team walk. does that indicate that the team is serious about winning ? nash should have left right then and there rather then waiting till he is 39 years to compete for a ship again. his loyalty hurt his chances of winning in the last few years.

the fan reaction to lebrons decision was huge. yes he handled things poorly. but when its all said and done he will look back and say thank god i made the right decision. he did infact make the right decision. if ppl want to hate on you for doing the right thing for yourself then so be it.

smith&wesson
10-04-2012, 08:50 PM
Loyalty is fan-driven in most cases.

At the end of the day, it's a business. Both the players and executives have to put themselves in the best position to succeed.

completly agree.

i beleive there is no longer any room for loyalty in pro sports. both players and executives will put them selves in the best position to be succesfull and thats the way it should be.

JordansBulls
10-05-2012, 10:20 PM
Loyalty is fan-driven in most cases.

At the end of the day, it's a business. Both the players and executives have to put themselves in the best position to succeed.

Sports is also about being competitive and taking on challenges and taking the easy way out is not taking on challenges.

theheatles
10-05-2012, 10:22 PM
loyalty will get you killed

kdspurman
10-06-2012, 10:25 AM
loyalty will get you killed

Timmy is still alive and well...:)

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 11:07 AM
It's a pure business. Players have much more in common with each other than the fans that support them.

Team colors and history matter to many fans, if they want to be blind to reality so they can maintain that innocent mind set - fine - but they have to be prepared for the ground to shift underneath them.

Back when I started watching, the average baseball player made 6 thousand bucks a year about 2.5 times the average working head of household.

I don't need to tell you what the separation is now. It's big business. I'd trade anybody on my team if it meant even 1 more win a year - even my favorite player.

LanceUpperCut
10-06-2012, 11:08 AM
I don't care about loyalty to much but it's nice to get some every once in a while.

I know this game is a business but if your a great player in my mind it's more than just cashing in and trying to take a short cut by jumping on board with an already great team. A player who grow's with a team leading it every year until they turn great will earn a lot more respect from his city and the whole league than a ring chaser.

I think of my Nash my favourite player of all time, in my eye's his legacy will not change one bit if he win's a ring this year. If he would of brought a title to Phoenix it would of been amazing though.

I don't like players asking for a trade but sometimes it understandable but when they ask for a trade and pin it down to a select few teams there is nothing worse, players want to cry it's a business well a team has every right to make the best business move and find the right trading partner.

JordansBulls
10-06-2012, 01:57 PM
loyalty will get you killed

How so?