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B'sCeltsPatsSox
10-04-2012, 02:57 PM
Discuss....

Station 13
10-04-2012, 03:43 PM
Pitching and more pitching.

Tazawa for closer.

Nomar
10-04-2012, 03:50 PM
Bailey has to be closer next year IMO at least to begin the season. We go him for a reason, and it would make us look stupid to bail on him before he ever pitches when it matters. Im sure BC doesnt want to make it look like we got nothing for Reddick.

GoldDustTwin
10-04-2012, 07:05 PM
Bailey has to be closer next year IMO at least to begin the season. We go him for a reason, and it would make us look stupid to bail on him before he ever pitches when it matters. Im sure BC doesnt want to make it look like we got nothing for Reddick.

We did get nothing for Reddick.

Cherington looks even more stupid if he sticks with a lousy closer just to prove a macho point.

Go with the better pitcher, let Bailey do middle relief until he shows someone he's not godawful.

Nomar
10-04-2012, 07:31 PM
We did get nothing for Reddick.

Cherington looks even more stupid if he sticks with a lousy closer just to prove a macho point.

Go with the better pitcher, let Bailey do middle relief until he shows someone he's not godawful.

We stuck with Papelbon when he started to look ****ed up and he ended up being fine. The guy missed a lot of time. To give up on him as a closer already seems stupid to me. Plus youre risking Tazawa being worse in a closer's role and losing confidence right away? No thanks.

Nomar
10-04-2012, 07:35 PM
And btw, Josh Reddick ended up having a 109 wRC+. Take May out of that equation and its more like 80. Most of his value came in the field, and that wont last forever. He got lucky for a month and everyone cried. The guy is nothing special. Next year hell put up a 2.5 WAR and everyone will forget about him.

SirHizz
10-04-2012, 08:33 PM
And btw, Josh Reddick ended up having a 109 wRC+. Take May out of that equation and its more like 80. Most of his value came in the field, and that wont last forever. He got lucky for a month and everyone cried. The guy is nothing special. Next year hell put up a 2.5 WAR and everyone will forget about him.

He might not be Mike Trout 2.0, but I'd take the 2012 version of Reddick every day and twice on sundays. Spectacular on defense and useful with the bat.
I don't know why it's a fair argument if you take out 4-6 weeks of a season. Stats decline for any player if you do that.

But I don't get it, why would we love getting him back when his stats are looking pretty similar to what he did in 2011 (when we thought of him as a 4th outfielder)?
Year Ba Obp Slg Ops Ops+
2011: .280 .327 .457 .784 109
2012: .242 .305 .463 .768 110

Even most of his ther stats stayed pretty much the same. BB% went up by 2%, but although his K% went up.

2.5 WAR sounds unlikely to me since he got to 1.9 in 2011 in less than half the PA's. Maybe he won't sustain a 4.5 WAR in the future, but 3-3.5 sounds about right.

Nomar
10-04-2012, 09:01 PM
He might not be Mike Trout 2.0, but I'd take the 2012 version of Reddick every day and twice on sundays. Spectacular on defense and useful with the bat.
I don't know why it's a fair argument if you take out 4-6 weeks of a season. Stats decline for any player if you do that.

But I don't get it, why would we love getting him back when his stats are looking pretty similar to what he did in 2011 (when we thought of him as a 4th outfielder)?
Year Ba Obp Slg Ops Ops+
2011: .280 .327 .457 .784 109
2012: .242 .305 .463 .768 110

Even most of his ther stats stayed pretty much the same. BB% went up by 2%, but although his K% went up.

2.5 WAR sounds unlikely to me since he got to 1.9 in 2011 in less than half the PA's. Maybe he won't sustain a 4.5 WAR in the future, but 3-3.5 sounds about right.

Yeah, i was a bit hard, 3 - 3.5 is feasible. But that May was such an outlier. Obviously they happened, but my real point was that it skewed his statline a lot; not that i literally wanted to give him no credit for it. IMO the worst part about not having him was that he was so young, but we have a lot of depth in the OF in our system at least :)

xnick5757
10-04-2012, 09:10 PM
And btw, Josh Reddick ended up having a 109 wRC+. Take May out of that equation and its more like 80. Most of his value came in the field, and that wont last forever. He got lucky for a month and everyone cried. The guy is nothing special. Next year hell put up a 2.5 WAR and everyone will forget about him.


and bailey's 0.0 WAR this season was much better right :cool: :p

Nomar
10-04-2012, 09:46 PM
and bailey's 0.0 WAR this season was much better right :cool: :p

I said that right?

avrpatsfan
10-04-2012, 10:30 PM
and bailey's 0.0 WAR this season was much better right :cool: :p
15 innings isn't exactly a large sample size. And WAR for closers is pretty much a worthless stat to begin with.

SenorGato
10-04-2012, 10:54 PM
Sorry to do this to you guys because speculating sucks, but it's really all I've got right now:

Any possible plans to trade Andrew Miller, Clay Buchholz, Ellsbury, Lester (I assume no), or Daniel Bard?

j-bay
10-04-2012, 11:02 PM
Sorry to do this to you guys because speculating sucks, but it's really all I've got right now:

Any possible plans to trade Andrew Miller, Clay Buchholz, Ellsbury, Lester (I assume no), or Daniel Bard?

Maybe
No
For the right price if we can't get a contract done
No(you assumed right)
Unknown

Nomar
10-05-2012, 03:12 PM
Angels extended Ianetta.

Is Conger available? I love to have hive as a backup (if we trade Salty).

Justabitoutside
10-05-2012, 04:06 PM
I don't think a couple small moves are going to be the answer. I believe we are going to need some type of blockbuster deal. Since blockbuster deals are impossible to predict. Especially since the current FO is impossible to predict. Do they trade Ellsbury, sign Hamilton, or Napoli? I don't think any of these things happen. I believe next years team will not be remotely close to what the general concensus believes will be the case.

youkilisallstar
10-05-2012, 06:20 PM
get rid of Dice-K. I was rooting for him when he first came to the majors, but now I just wish the Sox to be done with him what a bust.

bagwell368
10-05-2012, 09:16 PM
get rid of Dice-K. I was rooting for him when he first came to the majors, but now I just wish the Sox to be done with him what a bust.

Don't worry about it. His contract is up and he is gone.

bagwell368
10-05-2012, 09:19 PM
I don't think a couple small moves are going to be the answer. I believe we are going to need some type of blockbuster deal. Since blockbuster deals are impossible to predict. Especially since the current FO is impossible to predict. Do they trade Ellsbury, sign Hamilton, or Napoli? I don't think any of these things happen. I believe next years team will not be remotely close to what the general concensus believes will be the case.

Napoli has two really good years in a 7 year career, isn't much of catcher, gets nicked up a lot. AND he'll want a hefty deal - no thanks.

Hamilton isn't coming here.

We won't sign a big name this year (outside of Ortiz), we may make a big deal. But the target IMO is 2015, trying to compete next year is going to cost us a lot of our farm, and its not worth it.

Celtic AL
10-05-2012, 11:10 PM
i don't see them giving deals to big free agents such as Napoli & Hamilton. which that being i don't see them giving deals to pitchers like Liriano, Jackson & McCarthy Either.

I think Ben will use the money more wisely. meaning he'll sign players who are probably under the radar like theo did in 1st year with Mueller, Papi & Millar.

also don't be surprised to see the sox bringing in pitchers who are past there prime or in there twilight of there careers like they did last year & creating competition in spring training. who ever is the new manager he'll probably have Rubby De La Rosa join the competition for the 5th spot pending the arm has fully rehabbed from TommyJohn.

Station 13
10-06-2012, 10:03 AM
Anyone look at Beltre stats since leaving the hellhole in Seattle? :speechless:

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 12:06 PM
Anyone look at Beltre stats since leaving the hellhole in Seattle? :speechless:

Yeah, many times since I argue for him on the MLB board as well as here going back a few years.

If he has two more years at the average of his last 3, he'll be a HOF'er. That's pretty serious.

EEasyA
10-06-2012, 01:35 PM
Count me as not one of the red sox fan not down with the rebuild ear/bridge year.time to win Is now. We haven't made the playoffs in three years. We are the red sox.that's unacceptable.

Nomar
10-06-2012, 01:36 PM
Yeah, many times since I argue for him on the MLB board as well as here going back a few years.

If he has two more years at the average of his last 3, he'll be a HOF'er. That's pretty serious.

Even one might get him there. Voters would have to consider where he played, but he is the epitome of what every player should strive to be.

Justabitoutside
10-06-2012, 04:50 PM
Napoli has two really good years in a 7 year career, isn't much of catcher, gets nicked up a lot. AND he'll want a hefty deal - no thanks.

Hamilton isn't coming here.

We won't sign a big name this year (outside of Ortiz), we may make a big deal. But the target IMO is 2015, trying to compete next year is going to cost us a lot of our farm, and its not worth it.

I think we are saying the same thing here Bags. I am not interested in Napoli, or Hamilton (unless we could get them on short deals, which isn't going to happen).

If we can make a few changes here and there, make a few strides towards the right direction. Obviously, that is the best way to move forward. We can't give up the farm. Once Theo started doing that, everything went downhill.

Nomar
10-06-2012, 05:43 PM
I dont get the Napoli hype anyway. He had a freak year last year but in general doesnt put up good numbers; especially for a 1B.

The best reason i can give for him coming here is that he kills it at Fenway and the East is easy on RHB.

He's an option, but not a great one. Id rather see Davis, Belt, or even Smoak here next year honestly.

grandsalami
10-06-2012, 05:44 PM
I dont get the Napoli hype anyway. He had a freak year last year but in general doesnt put up good numbers; especially for a 1B.

The best reason i can give for him coming here is that he kills it at Fenway and the East is easy on RHB.

He's an option, but not a great one. Id rather see Davis, Belt, or even Smoak here next year honestly.

one is not like the other three... One costs money, the other's are locked up and cost prospects+ $$

Nomar
10-06-2012, 05:55 PM
one is not like the other three... One costs money, the other's are locked up and cost prospects+ $$

I know but im just talking about who i would like to see there. And honestly Smoak wouldnt take much. I would be fine with giving up Brentz to land one too (Belt or Davis i mean).

Petertherock
10-06-2012, 06:31 PM
Either Lester or Buchholz is gone to make room for some young gun pitchers. Don't ask me who we should get but I predict the pitching staff will look a lot different next year. Plus we will have to deal with Shlackey.

Nomar
10-06-2012, 07:04 PM
Either Lester or Buchholz is gone to make room for some young gun pitchers. Don't ask me who we should get but I predict the pitching staff will look a lot different next year. Plus we will have to deal with Shlackey.

I cant say i dont think is a good idea, but i dont know if the Sox brass will pull the trigger on dealing on of them. I think selling Buchholz makes a lot of sense. He's fragile and with that contract and his potential is worth a lot.

Nomar
10-06-2012, 07:27 PM
I read somewhere that Pedro was one of De La Rosa's idols growing up. I think it would be a great idea to get Rubby working with Pedro. This is the exact type of thing Pedro could greatly help with. De La Rosa has a small build too, something Pedro could definitely relate to.

bagwell368
10-06-2012, 08:51 PM
Count me as not one of the red sox fan not down with the rebuild ear/bridge year.time to win Is now. We haven't made the playoffs in three years. We are the red sox.that's unacceptable.

Think about it....

There are only a few FA with serious talent, they will cost a ton, and are almost universally held as a bad fit in this market.

Besides Salty, Iglesias, 2 LHH OF's, Aceves, and Aviles - what do we have to trade? Kids? The farm right now looks like it is ready to spew out as much or near as much talent as the 2005-2007 years. You want to ruin that for a few moderate guys in trade?

We cannot win next year and will not win next year, no matter what. So instead of breaking ourselves on those shoals, why do we not look to 2014 or better yet 2015?

Never mind my arguments, it is what will happen. We need like I said before BV was hired two full years to run the maggots out of here. If you want to label it "bridge" it's fine. A team that can repeat playoff visits cannot be built in a year with the raw materials we have in hand or that is available to us.

Can not. Will not.

MoVaughnsLunch
10-06-2012, 09:08 PM
Great post bagsg

Greenmonster24
10-06-2012, 10:56 PM
Just to bad thinking of last season thinking how maybe we could land Hamels or Matt Cain didn't think both would sign and neither could before the season started. Normally if you don't during off season then you end up testing free agency.

BostonSports96
10-06-2012, 11:06 PM
Either Lester or Buchholz is gone to make room for some young gun pitchers. Don't ask me who we should get but I predict the pitching staff will look a lot different next year. Plus we will have to deal with Shlackey.

I don't think Buccholz gets traded. Lester maybe, but only after some of these young guys establish themselves.

Mattski1991
10-07-2012, 12:39 AM
Red Sox are prepared to make Josh Hamilton a major offer -- Lucchino wants him bad. Heard it first here

Celtic AL
10-07-2012, 01:29 AM
Red Sox are prepared to make Josh Hamilton a major offer -- Lucchino wants him bad. Heard it first here

LOL good one

Nomar
10-07-2012, 02:17 AM
Just to bad thinking of last season thinking how maybe we could land Hamels or Matt Cain didn't think both would sign and neither could before the season started. Normally if you don't during off season then you end up testing free agency.

The Cain signing was surprising because i didnt think SF had it in them to commit to Cain before they did to Lincecum. Great decision though i applaud them for it. Posey, Cain, and Bumgarner are going to be there for a long time it seems and those are 3 great building blocks.

bagwell368
10-07-2012, 07:57 AM
I don't think Buccholz gets traded. Lester maybe, but only after some of these young guys establish themselves.

In the last two years Lester had 64 starts - 12 of which were poor.

Some selected monthly ERA+

2011 Apr: 2.52
2011 Jun: 2.31
2011 Jul: 1.56
2011 Aug: 2.78
2012 Jun: 4.01
2012 Aug: 3.59
2012 Sep: 3.96

Trading the best SP (top 12 ML pitcher since 2008 (per rWAR) - better then Lincecum and Price) from a staff with distinct issues in the starting staff quality and depth for "kids" is unwarranted and unwise.

Justabitoutside
10-07-2012, 08:52 AM
I am not tottally against bringing back Loney. We could probably get him cheap, and for 2 years. He is no A Gon, but we don't need that right now anyways. He is a serviceable 1b. We don't have trade anything for him either (i.e. Smoak, Davis). Loney actually seemed like he could fit well here also.

yankkiller
10-07-2012, 11:37 AM
our free agents
James Loney
David Ortiz
Cody Ross
Dice K
Cook
Padilla

trades i would do:
trade Ellsbury, Melancon, Aceves, and Aviles to the mets for Jason Bay with cash and Ike Davis
I would trade away a spec of two to get catcher Kurt Suzki

free agent targets:
B.J. Upton
Stephen Drew
Dan Haren
Pierre
Delmon Young

Lineup
LF Pierre .307 AVG 1 HR 25 RBI 37 SB
2B Pedroia .290 AVG 15 HR 65 RBI 20 SB
RF Young .267 AVG 18 HR 74 RBI 0 SB
1B Davis .227 AVG 32 HR 90 RBI 0 SB
CF Upton .246 AVG 28 HR 78 RBI 31 SB
SS Drew .223 AVG 7 HR 28 RBI 1 SB
3B Middlebrooks .288 AVG 15 HR 54 RBI 4 SB
DH Bay .165 AVG 8 HR 20 RBI 5 SB
C Suzuki .235 AVG 6 HR 43 RBI 2 SB

Bench
C/1B Salty .222 AVG 25 HR 59 RBI 0 SB
INF Ciraco .293 AVG 2 HR 19 RBI 16 SB
OF Sweeney .260 AVg 0 HR 16 RBI 0 SB
OF Podsednik .302 AVG 1 HR 12 RBI 8 SB

SP Haren 12-13 4.33 ERA 142 K's 176.2 IP
SP Lester 9-14 4.82 ERA 166 K's 205.1 IP
SP Buchholz 11-8 4.56 ERA 129 K's 189.1 IP
SP Doubront 11-10 4.86 ERA 167 K's 161 IP
SP Lackey N/A
LRP Mortensen 1-1 3.21 ERA 42 IP
MRP Miller 3-2 3.35 ERA 40.1 IP
MRP Tazawa 1-1 1.43 ERA 44 IP
MRP Hill 1-0 1.83 ERA 19 IP
SU Bard 5-6 6.22 ERA 59.1 IP
SU Breslow 3-0 2.70 ERA 63.1 IP
CL Bailey 1-1 7.04 ERA 6 saves

bagwell368
10-07-2012, 12:26 PM
trades i would do:
trade Ellsbury, Melancon, Aceves, and Aviles to the mets for Jason Bay with cash and Ike Davis


Did you check into the Mets needs?

Do they need a failed closer who is an emotional basket case due for FA in 2015?

Melancon? He sucks.

Ellsbury - a one year rental - an expensive one, Mets competing for a title?

Aviles - average SS, Mets have Tejada at SS and Wright at 3B - what do they need with Aviles?


Bay? A complete train wreck bum. He insulted everyone on his way out of town and fell on his face in NY. Useless.

The kernel of your deal is Ike Davis. They might be interested in Salty and a couple of decent specs for Davis. That's too much IMO.

papipapsmanny
10-07-2012, 03:37 PM
I want Napoli on a 3 year deal (maybe 4 if thats what it takes), because he is a beast in fenway.

Let him play some 1B, C, and DH.

Nomar
10-07-2012, 03:59 PM
Did you check into the Mets needs?

Do they need a failed closer who is an emotional basket case due for FA in 2015?

Melancon? He sucks.

Ellsbury - a one year rental - an expensive one, Mets competing for a title?

Aviles - average SS, Mets have Tejada at SS and Wright at 3B - what do they need with Aviles?


Bay? A complete train wreck bum. He insulted everyone on his way out of town and fell on his face in NY. Useless.

The kernel of your deal is Ike Davis. They might be interested in Salty and a couple of decent specs for Davis. That's too much IMO.

If we give up Ellsbury to get Davis i might kill myself

Crucis
10-07-2012, 04:50 PM
I want Napoli on a 3 year deal (maybe 4 if thats what it takes), because he is a beast in fenway.

Let him play some 1B, C, and DH.

Or maybe he was a beast in Fenway because he hit well against Red Sox pitching, not because of the park itself.

Honestly, not terribly interested in a player who seems like a home and away platoon player.

papipapsmanny
10-07-2012, 05:01 PM
yes of course over the duration of his career the sox have just had terrible pitching.

Nomar
10-07-2012, 05:07 PM
Or maybe he was a beast in Fenway because he hit well against Red Sox pitching, not because of the park itself.

Honestly, not terribly interested in a player who seems like a home and away platoon player.

Yet you want Ross resigned i presume... Napoli is less of a H/A platoon guy, bu he probably isnt worth the money i would say.

I wouldnt think Fenway would be much better tan the Ballpark in Arlington for him too. Ill probably have to pass.

bagwell368
10-07-2012, 07:06 PM
I want Napoli on a 3 year deal (maybe 4 if thats what it takes), because he is a beast in fenway.

Let him play some 1B, C, and DH.

Platoon hitter with two very good years in his 7 year career. He's aging. He's been banged up a bit. He's a below average fielding catcher. Outside of those two years, he's essentially been Salty.

He's going to command way too much money and years for what he is.

Signing him would be a major mistake.

Station 13
10-07-2012, 08:25 PM
I wonder what the Twins want for Willingham? Power RH bat we need to hit 5-6th.

BostonSports96
10-07-2012, 09:04 PM
In the last two years Lester had 64 starts - 12 of which were poor.

Some selected monthly ERA+

2011 Apr: 2.52
2011 Jun: 2.31
2011 Jul: 1.56
2011 Aug: 2.78
2012 Jun: 4.01
2012 Aug: 3.59
2012 Sep: 3.96

Trading the best SP (top 12 ML pitcher since 2008 (per rWAR) - better then Lincecum and Price) from a staff with distinct issues in the starting staff quality and depth for "kids" is unwarranted and unwise.

Okay, that is not what I said at all.

I said Lester "MAYBE gets traded" after some of these kids establish themselves and he becomes expendable. They may just let him walk after 2014, which is likely the case.

Am I lobbying to trade Lester? Nope.

Bags "The King of twisting words" strikes again.

BackyardRounder
10-07-2012, 09:36 PM
We have a lot of money to spend, but looking at the next two years of free agents there isn't a whole lot of quality players available. Barring some kind of an Orioles-like run next year, I don't see us being competitive until at least 2014. There isn't a quick fix out there and I think our clubhouse issues are too great to be solved by next year.

2013 FA's

Starters
Zach Greinke
Jake Peavy
Dan Haren
Kyle Lohse
Hiroki Kuroda
Ryan Dempster
Edwin Jackson
Anibal Sanchez
Brandon McCarthy

Position Players
Josh Hamilton
David Ortiz
Mike Napoli
Michael Bourn
Adam LaRoche
Nick Swisher
Ryan Ludwick
Torii Hunter
Kevin Youkilis
Lance Berkman


2014 FA's

Starters
Tim Lincecum
Matt Garza
Ubaldo Jiminez
Josh Johnson
Chris Carpenter
Dan Haren*
Ervin Santana*

Position Players
Mike Morse
Paul Konerko
Chase Utley
Miguel Cabrera
Martin Prado
Alex Gordon
Jacoby Ellsbury
Adam Jones
*Brian McCann
*Robinson Cano
*Ian Kinsler
*David Wright
*Curtis Granderson

As you can see, there's some difference makers out there, but probably not enough to turn a 93 loss team in to a 93 win team without gambling on large contracts for players with warts.

So at some point will we be forced to make a trade, will we go back to giving out inflated contracts for players who probably won't earn them, or will we just punt to 2015 and hope that Kershaw and Verlander remain free agents?

Justabitoutside
10-07-2012, 10:12 PM
Of coarse a trade will probably be made. I am just hoping we don't give away the farm, for a piece that isn't justifieable. Josh Johnson is an interesting discussion. I am not sure what it would take, but I can see us making a run at him.

I don't think any team is going to holdout, to see if Verlander & Kershaw hit the open market. That simply isn't going to happen.

BackyardRounder
10-07-2012, 10:15 PM
It wouldn't just be a matter of holding out for those two starters. It would also be an issue of addressing clubhouse issues, waiting to see what we have in Lavarnway, Middlebrooks, Bogaerts, Bradley, Kalish, Iglesias, Barnes, Cecchini and perhaps even stockpiling additional prospects to make a trade for a Felix Hernandez type.

NYSPORTS98
10-07-2012, 10:19 PM
Some talk in Ny about the Sox being a good home for Ike Davis. Davis has some sickness for half the season so the average is very likely not accurate. Very good glove and hit 30 HR. Why would the Mets move him? The Mets are the Jets and it likely makes sense to them.

Justabitoutside
10-07-2012, 10:28 PM
As of now, we need a LF, RF, 1B, DH, and a SP. We will probably fill one of those needs via trade. Now we will probably Re-sign Ross to fill RF, and Ortiz to fill DH. We are presumabely down to filling LF, 1B, and SP. If we can get Justin Upton & Josh Johnson without giving up too much, we may be able to compete for 90 wins. That still will not be enough to make the play-offs. As much as I want to compete, the reality of the situation always sets in.

In the end the Red Sox will make a few small moves to make it seem like they are trying to compete. The fans will be happy to win 90 games instead of 69, and we have a core of players to move forward into 2014 and beyond.

bagwell368
10-07-2012, 10:37 PM
Okay, that is not what I said at all.

I said Lester "MAYBE gets traded" after some of these kids establish themselves and he becomes expendable. They may just let him walk after 2014, which is likely the case.

Am I lobbying to trade Lester? Nope.

Bags "The King of twisting words" strikes again.

Wait, so I'm "twisting your words" - but you present your logic on why the Sox need to move off of Lester. Do you understand that this enfeebles your argument utterly?

"twisting words" has nothing to do with my motivation, sir, however you did provide me with a springboard to make my points on Lester.

BackyardRounder
10-07-2012, 10:39 PM
I don't see how Justin Upton or Josh Johnson would address our many issues. I think we'll simply need to be patient, and try to build the team correctly, rather than doing the rash free agent signings that got us in to such trouble the last few years.

bagwell368
10-07-2012, 10:48 PM
Goals for 2013:

#1. Do not weaken the future by trading away the top 8 specs (projectable) for any reason. Do deal kids that are deemed not able to make it such as Iglesias.

#2. Accept that no matter what we do, we can't win the WS

#3. Accept our chances of making the playoffs are less than 50/50

#4. Finish off dealing the cancers from the team no later than opening day 2014.

#5. Get a coaching staff that has an emphasis on taking pitches and high OBP, and throwing strikes. Get a top flight workout regimen for each player.

#6. Avoid big $ FA deals.

Following these rules puts us in much better chance to repeat making the playoff in 2015-2016. For one thing we won't be tossing big bucks away on guys like Napoli that are liable to be toast by 2015-2016.

Nomar
10-07-2012, 11:12 PM
Alex Gordon got an extension early this year, and wont be a FA until 2016. Just so you guys know.

Nomar
10-07-2012, 11:19 PM
Trading Lester makes no sense to me after his down year. It makes way more sense to trade Buchholz given the value his contract alone gives him. I doubt either gets traded though.

BostonSports96
10-08-2012, 12:05 AM
Wait, so I'm "twisting your words" - but you present your logic on why the Sox need to move off of Lester. Do you understand that this enfeebles your argument utterly?

"twisting words" has nothing to do with my motivation, sir, however you did provide me with a springboard to make my points on Lester.

You strike yet again. I said Lester might get traded if some of the young guys can establish themselves.

When did I ever present my logic in a way that the Sox need to move off of Lester? Did I suggest they move him? No.

And yes, you are twisting words, you're the master of it.

BostonSports96
10-08-2012, 12:08 AM
Alex Gordon got an extension early this year, and wont be a FA until 2016. Just so you guys know.

He'll also cost a ton. Depends on what the price is exactly.

MagicBucsSox
10-08-2012, 04:56 AM
Trading Lester makes no sense to me after his down year. It makes way more sense to trade Buchholz given the value his contract alone gives him. I doubt either gets traded though.
Hell get rid if both

ruckus16969
10-08-2012, 06:43 AM
We have a lot of money to spend, but looking at the next two years of free agents there isn't a whole lot of quality players available. Barring some kind of an Orioles-like run next year, I don't see us being competitive until at least 2014. There isn't a quick fix out there and I think our clubhouse issues are too great to be solved by next year.

2013 FA's

Starters
Zach Greinke
Jake Peavy
Dan Haren
Kyle Lohse
Hiroki Kuroda
Ryan Dempster
Edwin Jackson
Anibal Sanchez
Brandon McCarthy

Position Players
Josh Hamilton
David Ortiz
Mike Napoli
Michael Bourn
Adam LaRoche
Nick Swisher
Ryan Ludwick
Torii Hunter
Kevin Youkilis
Lance Berkman


2014 FA's

Starters
Tim Lincecum
Matt Garza
Ubaldo Jiminez
Josh Johnson
Chris Carpenter
Dan Haren*
Ervin Santana*

Position Players
Mike Morse
Paul Konerko
Chase Utley
Miguel Cabrera
Martin Prado
Alex Gordon
Jacoby Ellsbury
Adam Jones
*Brian McCann
*Robinson Cano
*Ian Kinsler
*David Wright
*Curtis Granderson

As you can see, there's some difference makers out there, but probably not enough to turn a 93 loss team in to a 93 win team without gambling on large contracts for players with warts.

So at some point will we be forced to make a trade, will we go back to giving out inflated contracts for players who probably won't earn them, or will we just punt to 2015 and hope that Kershaw and Verlander remain free agents?

There are a few difference makers in these 2 groups

Station 13
10-08-2012, 09:41 AM
Hell get rid if both

u mad

or ur lackey brother

or both

Nomar
10-08-2012, 09:59 AM
Hell get rid if both

I would bet you $100 that he doesnt

ricomactaco
10-08-2012, 11:00 AM
Goals for 2013:

#1. Do not weaken the future by trading away the top 8 specs (projectable) for any reason. Do deal kids that are deemed not able to make it such as Iglesias.

#2. Accept that no matter what we do, we can't win the WS

#3. Accept our chances of making the playoffs are less than 50/50

#4. Finish off dealing the cancers from the team no later than opening day 2014.

#5. Get a coaching staff that has an emphasis on taking pitches and high OBP, and throwing strikes. Get a top flight workout regimen for each player.

#6. Avoid big $ FA deals.

Following these rules puts us in much better chance to repeat making the playoff in 2015-2016. For one thing we won't be tossing big bucks away on guys like Napoli that are liable to be toast by 2015-2016.

Thats a depressing outlook. I prefer to look at the Orioles and A's of this year and think we can still be a playoff team. I too, prefer not to trade away our top prospects but with signing a couple mid/high level starters in free agency (Saunders, Jackson, Haren) and making a couple wise trades, I think we can compete.

Nomar
10-08-2012, 11:19 AM
Thats a depressing outlook. I prefer to look at the Orioles and A's of this year and think we can still be a playoff team. I too, prefer not to trade away our top prospects but with signing a couple mid/high level starters in free agency (Saunders, Jackson, Haren) and making a couple wise trades, I think we can compete.

We arent like either of the teams really. Unless De La Rosa and Webster come up next year and pitch like Straily, Harvey or other impressive rookies this year (which wont happen), were not making the playoffs.

bagwell368
10-08-2012, 12:02 PM
You strike yet again. I said Lester might get traded if some of the young guys can establish themselves.

You said "Lester maybe".

It would take a season or three for young guys to establish themselves. So you either for moving Lester or not. You are in favor of moving Buchholz, but maybe in favor of moving Lester.

Posting stats to argue against that is my right as a poster in good standing. If you don't like it, try facts or ignoring me, but I'm sure the other posters are bored by your picayune complaints. I don't mind - outside of the waste of time that is, from more interesting matters.


And yes, you are twisting words, you're the master of it.

Whatever floats your boat.

bagwell368
10-08-2012, 12:05 PM
Hell get rid if both

Wrong again.

bagwell368
10-08-2012, 12:11 PM
Thats a depressing outlook. I prefer to look at the Orioles and A's of this year and think we can still be a playoff team. I too, prefer not to trade away our top prospects but with signing a couple mid/high level starters in free agency (Saunders, Jackson, Haren) and making a couple wise trades, I think we can compete.

Do you think that our situation is similar to theirs last year? Are our young players (debuted after 3/2011) as good as theirs? What about the farm? THis year the FA offerings are good deal weaker than last year blocking to some extent our chance to work in that realm.

The first two pitchers you list are at best #3.5 SP's in the AL East, and what's the price tag? $21M for 3 years (or worse?). Haren could be a #2 - if he holds up.

I think you have the right direction, I'm just not sure how far we'll get with it in year 1 - less then 92 wins, and more likely 84.

Justabitoutside
10-08-2012, 12:16 PM
I don't see how Justin Upton or Josh Johnson would address our many issues. I think we'll simply need to be patient, and try to build the team correctly, rather than doing the rash free agent signings that got us in to such trouble the last few years.

I don't think attaining Upton would help us next year. I am looking at 2014, when Ellsbury is gone. As for Johnson? I think he would give us a great core of SP (Johnson & Lester). Again, not to help us with 2013, but 2014. Would we deal for them now? Yes, but ONLY if the price is right.

I actually agree with you. We do have to be patient. I am Definately against trading away the future! We do have many issues, and they will all have to be addressed this off-season. I am sure the FO will explore FA's, but they are also going to explore trade alternatives. Hopefully they are dilligent in their search.

Justabitoutside
10-08-2012, 12:28 PM
No way Lester & Buchholz are going anywhere. They can't trade them when their value is at an all time low. Ellsbury? Maybe, but highly doubtful. Our starting pitching staff (Lester,Lackey,Buchholz, and Doubrount), is set for next year.

papipapsmanny
10-08-2012, 12:28 PM
Platoon hitter with two very good years in his 7 year career. He's aging. He's been banged up a bit. He's a below average fielding catcher. Outside of those two years, he's essentially been Salty.

He's going to command way too much money and years for what he is.

Signing him would be a major mistake.

Platoon Player? He has a .388 wOBA against Lefties and a .363 wOBA against Lefties, with a career overall wOBA of .370

Hardly a platoon player.

He Walks a lot and has mad power, in Fenway with 600 PAs he could put up over 40 HRs

I would try and sign him to a 4 year deal worth 9-10 million per year. To play 1B mainly, catch sometimes, and move to DH after Ortiz is gone for sure (which is looking like two years from now) That contract would take him though his age 34 season.. not too bad

Nomar
10-08-2012, 12:30 PM
No way Lester & Buchholz are going anywhere. They can't trade them when their value is at an all time low. Ellsbury? Maybe, but highly doubtful. Our starting pitching staff (Lester,Lackey,Buchholz, and Doubrount), is set for next year.

Buchholz's value isnt at an all time low. I wouldnt make assumptions on our rotation

Justabitoutside
10-08-2012, 12:37 PM
Buchholz's value isnt at an all time low. I wouldnt make assumptions on our rotation

Obviously we will need another SP for the rotation. I just don't see the returning 4 from last year going anywhere.

papipapsmanny
10-08-2012, 12:39 PM
We have to be smart. I would trade clay to net us something and sign Sanchez or maybe Haren

I would trade Salty, and sign a defensive C for cheap, and Napoli. Let Lavarnway, Napoli, and Defense of C, split time at C, 1B, and some DH.

Bogaerts may get to big down the road, but if he gets off to a fast start in AA he could be up by the all star break and play SS initially but that is optimistic.

Justabitoutside
10-08-2012, 12:45 PM
We have to be smart. I would trade clay to net us something and sign Sanchez or maybe Haren

I don't think trading Clay gets us anything of value. Keep him & focus on the rest of the mess. Clay isn't a problem. We have too many issues, no need to create another one.

Nomar
10-08-2012, 12:51 PM
We have to be smart. I would trade clay to net us something and sign Sanchez or maybe Haren

I would trade Salty, and sign a defensive C for cheap, and Napoli. Let Lavarnway, Napoli, and Defense of C, split time at C, 1B, and some DH.

Bogaerts may get to big down the road, but if he gets off to a fast start in AA he could be up by the all star break and play SS initially but that is optimistic.

I like all of it besides Napoli (id rather trade for Davis/Belt/Smoak).

Most scouts, even Mellen, think Bogaerts will have a year or two of SS in him at the MLB level. Hopefully he keeps progressing fast and that becomes true.

ricomactaco
10-08-2012, 02:39 PM
We have to be smart. I would trade clay to net us something and sign Sanchez or maybe Haren

I would trade Salty, and sign a defensive C for cheap, and Napoli. Let Lavarnway, Napoli, and Defense of C, split time at C, 1B, and some DH.

Bogaerts may get to big down the road, but if he gets off to a fast start in AA he could be up by the all star break and play SS initially but that is optimistic.

That would be great if Bogaerts progresses that fast but I can see the F.O. signing S Drew this offseason. I cant say I would be thrilled but he's better than Aviles and Iglesias for now.

BostonSports96
10-08-2012, 03:10 PM
You said "Lester maybe".

Yes, I did. That is not advocating to trade him, I just said it is a possibility, I gave no opinion on it.


It would take a season or three for young guys to establish themselves. So you either for moving Lester or not. You are in favor of moving Buchholz, but maybe in favor of moving Lester.

Again, I gave no opinion on whether to move Lester or not. And how am I "in favor of trading Buccholz"? I said Buccholz won't get traded, I'm against trading him.


Posting stats to argue against that is my right as a poster in good standing. If you don't like it, try facts or ignoring me

You sir brought up the stats, I just gave an opinion. I never said anything against Lester being great from 2008-2011. I never brought it up.


...but I'm sure the other posters are bored by your picayune complaints. I don't mind - outside of the waste of time that is, from more interesting matters.

If it is such a waste of time, try ignoring me. I think your the only person in PSD that cares enough to put your 2 cents into everything that is posted. With all your experience and knowledge of stats you blab about, why not applying for the Sox vacated managing job?


Whatever floats your boat.

What is the problem here? I'm just stating plain facts, just like you asked me too.

win red sox
10-08-2012, 04:33 PM
Count me as not one of the red sox fan not down with the rebuild ear/bridge year.time to win Is now. We haven't made the playoffs in three years. We are the red sox.that's unacceptable.

I agree, the adtvantage of being a large market team is the ability to fill holes via free agency with elite players without sacraficing prospects. Therefore, if you can get Hamilton at 4/100 with a 5th year team option and get Napoli at 3/42 then you do it. With resigning Ortiz 2/28 and Ross 2/14 the payroll would still be only be around 150 million which would leave plenty of flexiblity to make acquisitions during the year.

cf ellsbury
2b pedroia
lf hamilton
1b Napoli
dh Ortiz
rf Ross/Kalish
3b Middlebrooks
c Lavarnway/Salty
ss Iglesias/Aviles

That is a competetive linueup. When it comes to pitching the sox should be acquiring and drafting as much high ceiling prospects as possible, pitching more than positional players is developed not bought. I see alot of posters especially in this forum stating the focus should be on 2014 or even 2015, I dont know whats supposed to happen then, unless the thinking is Matt Barnes is going to be an ace, Bogarts is going to be .900 ops guy and so on and so on. The point is no prospect is guaranteed stardom, look at Kansas city who supposedly has had one of the top farm systems for years and every year is a disappointment. I'm not saying to sign J Hamilton or Napoli, but what I am saying is that its inexcuseable, with the red sox financial resources, not to put a competitive on the field year in and year out.

bagwell368
10-08-2012, 05:50 PM
I agree, the adtvantage of being a large market team is the ability to fill holes via free agency with elite players without sacraficing prospects.

Did you check the offerings? You can't possibly think we just have holes? We having gaping wounds.


Therefore, if you can get Hamilton at 4/100 with a 5th year team option and get Napoli at 3/42 then you do it.

Only if BC has a loaded gun to his temple. Terrible moves, both.


I'm not saying to sign J Hamilton or Napoli, but what I am saying is that its inexcuseable, with the red sox financial resources, not to put a competitive on the field year in and year out.

And the wisdom of experience - like Theo tried to preach here - is that sometimes it is much wiser to retreat and reload then charge ahead mindlessly. Go look at the history of English longbowmen and French knights if you don't believe it.

bagwell368
10-08-2012, 05:55 PM
[QUOTE]I think your the only person in PSD that cares enough to put your 2 cents into everything that is posted. With all your experience and knowledge of stats you blab about, why not applying for the Sox vacated managing job?

Excellent idea. I have managed at much lower levels - but these days I only fill in every now and then since I'm basically unable to get around due to ill health, but I do appreciate the vote of confidence.

Nomar
10-08-2012, 06:06 PM
[QUOTE=BostonSports96;23872141]

Excellent idea. I have managed at much lower levels - but these days I only fill in every now and then since I'm basically unable to get around due to ill health, but I do appreciate the vote of confidence.

You actually have my vote.

Theres plenty of people out there who could be an asset to a front office, but will never have the chance because they didnt go to an ivy league school. There's hardly a such thing as a dirtdog in front offices. You wither went to Harvard or played in the MLB.

Justabitoutside
10-08-2012, 06:08 PM
You have Barnes, Bogaerts, Bradley, Webster, De La Rosa etc...

All of whom will begin to start making an impact on our big club starting in 2014. That is why you don't rush out to sign a bunch of FA's. I would like to ring bback Ellsbury also, over Hamilton. Signing Hamilton, may affect how we deal with Ellsbury.

Nomar
10-08-2012, 06:13 PM
You have Barnes, Bogaerts, Bradley, Webster, De La Rosa etc...

All of whom will begin to start making an impact on our big club starting in 2014. That is why you don't rush out to sign a bunch of FA's. I would like to ring bback Ellsbury also, over Hamilton. Signing Hamilton, may affect how we deal with Ellsbury.

Ellsbury is gone, one way or another. Trade this winter, trade at the deadline next year, or he walks in free agency. We wont even legitimately try to extend him.

BackyardRounder
10-08-2012, 06:30 PM
I would like to see the Red Sox get back to a team that emphasizes pitching, quality at bats and therefor on base percentage, and defense. I don't like the transitions we made to inpatient speedsters and all-or-nothing power hitters. Last year, we had three positions which provided a collective OBP below .300.

SS - .272
C - .278
CF - .299

SS realistically won't be addressed via free agency. Unless you consider Marco Scutaro a shortstop, there aren't any free agents at the position who have had an OBP over .325 the last two years. I would like the Red Sox to make a trade for Jamey Carroll (.343 OBP last year, .355+ OBP the previous four years versatile defensively).

At catcher, I would like the team to spend significant money on Carlos Ruiz even though he is 33. Improving the pitching starts at the catcher position. Saltalamacchia simply is not a good defensive catcher and I have not been impressed with his game calling. Ruiz is one of the game's better defensive catchers, he's caught a very successful staff in Philadelphia and has a reputation as a good game caller and he's hit .303/.382/.458 the last two seasons while averaging over 120 games a year. We need a veteran behind the plate, not someone who's still learning on the job if we want the pitching to turn around.

CF will most likely be improved by a healthy Jacoby Ellsbury.

Pitching is a little more difficult. Given the state of our team, I wouldn't give up anything significant in a trade. I think Greinke's anxiety issues are overblown and if we're going to be giving out long-term contracts to starting pitchers, we should give them to younger players such as him. I would pass if he demands too much though, Jake Peavy or Dan Haren would be a nice consolation prize if they could be required on a shorter contract.

Other than that, I think we just have to suck it up and realize this most likely is a rebuilding year and see what we can get from Lester, Buchholz and Doubront. Scott Baker would make a solid option as possible insurance. The Red Sox could even give him a shot at competing for a spot in the rotation to lure him in to signing. He'd certainly be better than Aaron Cook.

At this point, I'd bring back Ortiz and then see what's left at first base. First basemen, or at least the quality of first basemen available this year, are a dime a dozen.

win red sox
10-08-2012, 06:33 PM
Did you check the offerings? You can't possibly think we just have holes? We having gaping wounds.



Only if BC has a loaded gun to his temple. Terrible moves, both.



And the wisdom of experience - like Theo tried to preach here - is that sometimes it is much wiser to retreat and reload then charge ahead mindlessly. Go look at the history of English longbowmen and French knights if you don't believe it.

so im assuming your for the "kansas city rebuild program", which is getting high draft picks hoping and praying that the farm system delivers the red sox from mediocrity and maybe just maybe the red sox will be competitive in 2015 at the earliest. You honestly think the red sox could afford to be uncompetitive for 2-3 more years, the main source of income for the red sox is adtvertising and the pink hats and 2-3 more years of losing would be devastating to both. Its going to be harder and harder to sign free agent elite bats and elite arms as teams are locking up players to long term contracts during there arb years. And who cares how if they signed Hamilton for 4/100 and Napoli to 3/39 if it doesnt effect there payroll flexiblity, and unless you are and investor or owner it shouldn't matter. enough of defending my suggestions, what exactly is your plan? let me guess let the youngsters play and sign low salary complimentary free agents like they did in 2004(papi,millar,mueller), only problem with that is they had an elite bat(manny ramirez 8/160) in the middle of the lineup that was the driving force.

BackyardRounder
10-08-2012, 06:40 PM
so im assuming your for the "kansas city rebuild program", which is getting high draft picks hoping and praying that the farm system delivers the red sox from mediocrity and maybe just maybe the red sox will be competitive in 2015 at the earliest. You honestly think the red sox could afford to be uncompetitive for 2-3 more years, the main source of income for the red sox is adtvertising and the pink hats and 2-3 more years of losing would be devastating to both. Its going to be harder and harder to sign free agent elite bats and elite arms as teams are locking up players to long term contracts during there arb years. And who cares how if they signed Hamilton for 4/100 and Napoli to 3/39 if it doesnt effect there payroll flexiblity, and unless you are and investor or owner it shouldn't matter. enough of defending my suggestions, what exactly is your plan? let me guess let the youngsters play and sign low salary complimentary free agents like they did in 2004(papi,millar,mueller), only problem with that is they had an elite bat(manny ramirez 8/160) in the middle of the lineup that was the driving force.

Honestly, I think our rebuilding phase will simply mean that don't go on a 2007-like spending spree and instead lower our payroll by a $15-30 million instead. We're never going to be a small market team.

win red sox
10-08-2012, 07:19 PM
I would like to see the Red Sox get back to a team that emphasizes pitching, quality at bats and therefor on base percentage, and defense. I don't like the transitions we made to inpatient speedsters and all-or-nothing power hitters. Last year, we had three positions which provided a collective OBP below .300.

SS - .272
C - .278
CF - .299

SS realistically won't be addressed via free agency. Unless you consider Marco Scutaro a shortstop, there aren't any free agents at the position who have had an OBP over .325 the last two years. I would like the Red Sox to make a trade for Jamey Carroll (.343 OBP last year, .355+ OBP the previous four years versatile defensively).

At catcher, I would like the team to spend significant money on Carlos Ruiz even though he is 33. Improving the pitching starts at the catcher position. Saltalamacchia simply is not a good defensive catcher and I have not been impressed with his game calling. Ruiz is one of the game's better defensive catchers, he's caught a very successful staff in Philadelphia and has a reputation as a good game caller and he's hit .303/.382/.458 the last two seasons while averaging over 120 games a year. We need a veteran behind the plate, not someone who's still learning on the job if we want the pitching to turn around.

CF will most likely be improved by a healthy Jacoby Ellsbury.

Pitching is a little more difficult. Given the state of our team, I wouldn't give up anything significant in a trade. I think Greinke's anxiety issues are overblown and if we're going to be giving out long-term contracts to starting pitchers, we should give them to younger players such as him. I would pass if he demands too much though, Jake Peavy or Dan Haren would be a nice consolation prize if they could be required on a shorter contract.

Other than that, I think we just have to suck it up and realize this most likely is a rebuilding year and see what we can get from Lester, Buchholz and Doubront. Scott Baker would make a solid option as possible insurance. The Red Sox could even give him a shot at competing for a spot in the rotation to lure him in to signing. He'd certainly be better than Aaron Cook.

At this point, I'd bring back Ortiz and then see what's left at first base. First basemen, or at least the quality of first basemen available this year, are a dime a dozen.

excellent suggestion on Carrol, had no clue his obp was that good, Im assuming we would have to move aviles or ciriaco due to redundacy.

I think Carlos Ruiz has a 5 million team option which i think is a given that the phillies will pick up. Another option could be David Ross from Atlanta.

The Ellsbury situation will be very interesting, I imagine they do shop him and if they get the deal there looking for(hopefully young pitchers) they pull the trigger. But I would anticipate a monster year from Ellsbury either way.

I would imagine Peavy,Haren, and Jackson would not come to Boston on a 1 or even a 2 year deal unless its a significant overpay. Baker is a interesting option.

bagwell368
10-08-2012, 07:22 PM
so im assuming your for the "kansas city rebuild program", which is getting high draft picks hoping and praying that the farm system delivers the red sox from mediocrity and maybe just maybe the red sox will be competitive in 2015 at the earliest.

That would be an incorrect assumption on your part based on what I've been writing here for some time (including today).

We need to finish off cleaning house. We have to avoid FA deals that are not high ROI - very tough with this FA crop.

We have some goods to deal for other things we need more, BC should be OK at these.

We musn't blow up the farm OR buy long term high priced FA's both will make getting the hole we are in last longer.

So, obviously we need to move in the right direction, but we should not charge ahead mindlessly. The risks are too high, the payoff too meager for 2013.


You honestly think the red sox could afford to be uncompetitive for 2-3 more years

Why are you trying to put words in my mouth. My map would say something like this for wins: 81, 86, 93, 95 over the next 4 years.

We had a very productive farm in 2005-2007, relatively reasonable budgets, and we had the best pitching staff in Boston history since 1918, a very strong line-up of low budget FA, high budget FA, and good home grown players. Once the spiggot slowed down, we went on the mad FA spree - very much like the one you seem to favor, and look at where we are now?


the main source of income for the red sox is adtvertising and the pink hats and 2-3 more years of losing would be devastating to both.

I agree, and since I never advocated 2-3 years of losing - I have no idea of why you are lecturing me.


Its going to be harder and harder to sign free agent elite bats and elite arms as teams are locking up players to long term contracts during there arb years. And who cares how if they signed Hamilton for 4/100 and Napoli to 3/39 if it doesnt effect there payroll flexiblity, and unless you are and investor or owner it shouldn't matter

How much research have you done on Napoli? Did you notice in 5 out of 7 of his seasons his OPS+ has been: 107, 110, 110, 115, 120) How about the fact that he's a below average defensive catcher that is aging and has suffered injuries? BRS fans are wild on the guy because he has brained BRS pitching in Fenway. If I could get the guy for 3 years for $18M I'd be all over it, but it's liable to be $27M+ for those years - no thanks.

What about Hamilton? His D has started dropping big time, he's at best a LF now. He's got an incredibly addictive personality. Horse, booze, and god. And him going into physical decline shortly (32 in May), with some injury concerns. He's liable to be $130M for 5 years - no thanks. It's simply bad business.


enough of defending my suggestions, what exactly is your plan? let me guess let the youngsters play and sign low salary complimentary free agents like they did in 2004(papi,millar,mueller), only problem with that is they had an elite bat(manny ramirez 8/160) in the middle of the lineup that was the driving force.

You forgot about Ortiz.

Let's try common sense 101. If want you want isn't available in FA and getting harder to find, you don't cut off your your top specs for mid talent players. If Ortiz and Ramirez circa 2003 can't be gotten in FA, you don't buy into high risk guys like Hamilton and pretend that they are. You do what is appropriate. You don't act like high anxiety case that has to act to cut the anxiety.

bagwell368
10-08-2012, 07:36 PM
I would like to see the Red Sox get back to a team that emphasizes pitching, quality at bats and therefor on base percentage, and defense. I don't like the transitions we made to inpatient speedsters and all-or-nothing power hitters. Last year, we had three positions which provided a collective OBP below .300.

SS - .272
C - .278
CF - .299

SS realistically won't be addressed via free agency. Unless you consider Marco Scutaro a shortstop, there aren't any free agents at the position who have had an OBP over .325 the last two years. I would like the Red Sox to make a trade for Jamey Carroll (.343 OBP last year, .355+ OBP the previous four years versatile defensively).

At catcher, I would like the team to spend significant money on Carlos Ruiz even though he is 33. Improving the pitching starts at the catcher position. Saltalamacchia simply is not a good defensive catcher and I have not been impressed with his game calling. Ruiz is one of the game's better defensive catchers, he's caught a very successful staff in Philadelphia and has a reputation as a good game caller and he's hit .303/.382/.458 the last two seasons while averaging over 120 games a year. We need a veteran behind the plate, not someone who's still learning on the job if we want the pitching to turn around.

CF will most likely be improved by a healthy Jacoby Ellsbury.

Pitching is a little more difficult. Given the state of our team, I wouldn't give up anything significant in a trade. I think Greinke's anxiety issues are overblown and if we're going to be giving out long-term contracts to starting pitchers, we should give them to younger players such as him. I would pass if he demands too much though, Jake Peavy or Dan Haren would be a nice consolation prize if they could be required on a shorter contract.

Other than that, I think we just have to suck it up and realize this most likely is a rebuilding year and see what we can get from Lester, Buchholz and Doubront. Scott Baker would make a solid option as possible insurance. The Red Sox could even give him a shot at competing for a spot in the rotation to lure him in to signing. He'd certainly be better than Aaron Cook.

At this point, I'd bring back Ortiz and then see what's left at first base. First basemen, or at least the quality of first basemen available this year, are a dime a dozen.

Some good thinking here. There is an option for 2013 on Ruiz according to cots.

BackyardRounder
10-08-2012, 09:28 PM
Damn, $5 million club option. I don't see any reason why Philly wouldn't pick that up.

Greenmonster24
10-08-2012, 10:48 PM
because they have 70 million tied into starting pitching. Unless they can unload Lee the Phillies don't have alot of money to work with. Don't forget there paying Howard and Utley big money as while and might need a outfielder.

BostonSports96
10-09-2012, 12:00 AM
[QUOTE=BostonSports96;23872141]

Excellent idea. I have managed at much lower levels - but these days I only fill in every now and then since I'm basically unable to get around due to ill health, but I do appreciate the vote of confidence.

Wow, bags didn't address the rest of my argument.

Usually bags scolds others for refusing to address other points of the argument, and now he didn't even do it. Hypocritical much?

Don't bother responding to this if it is such a waste of your time.

BackyardRounder
10-09-2012, 12:49 AM
Ruiz is a steal at $5 million. He was worth over $20 million last year in WAR value. If they're going to cut payroll, it would make sense to do it elsewhere.

bagwell368
10-09-2012, 07:12 AM
because they have 70 million tied into starting pitching. Unless they can unload Lee the Phillies don't have alot of money to work with. Don't forget there paying Howard and Utley big money as while and might need a outfielder.

$5M is chump change for that payroll. He goes no place unless they trade him for a nice haul.

I do think the Sox should deal Salty, and we'll get the typical 34+ year old back-up with a good glove and a weak bat for this year. This is the year to see Lavarnway behind the plate for 3/5 of the season.

They need to stop fussing with Lavarnway's game so much, his swing lost about 6 MPH off of it from last year - due in part to too much coaching input and too much anxiety on his part). His catching has gotten much better, it's at worst below average now (he's in total better then VMart when he was here). Any weakness in his game calling is easily dealt with from the bench or more time with pitchers. The guy is no dummy, and his offensive upside is top 5 AL catcher. Worst comes to worse he's a back-up catcher or DH/PH/3rd catcher. Might as well find out.

bagwell368
10-09-2012, 07:25 AM
Usually bags scolds others for refusing to address other points of the argument, and now he didn't even do it. Hypocritical much?

Nobody else seems interested in this off topic tangent. I respect the members of this board that deserve respect.


Don't bother responding to this if it is such a waste of your time.

No worries, I think you can go into the same bucket as yankkiller. I'll just respond when something notable/useful comes off of your pen.

Greenmonster24
10-09-2012, 08:49 AM
To bad we can't get someone like Varitek to work with Lavarnway to help his game calling

bagwell368
10-09-2012, 10:38 AM
To bad we can't get someone like Varitek to work with Lavarnway to help his game calling

Lavarnway has only caught about 600 games at catcher his whole life, and almost all of those are since 2008 (I mean all the way back to tee ball). Varitek probably had close to 600 games caught before he graduated college - certainly before he got to the Sox.

BTW, he caught Lester as much as Shoppach this year (7 games), and had better results - .238/.312.362 - and both of them croaked Salty.

BTW, he caught Buchholz 5 games and got these results: .233/.291/.338 - well better than Shoppach and again far far better then Salty.

In his only start with Doubront, Lavarnway also had the lowest slash allowed compared to the other two.

Perhaps some folks are substituting what you have heard from "them", for the reality of the situation?

Nomar
10-09-2012, 11:13 AM
Lavarnway has only caught about 600 games at catcher his whole life, and almost all of those are since 2008 (I mean all the way back to tee ball). Varitek probably had close to 600 games caught before he graduated college - certainly before he got to the Sox.

BTW, he caught Lester as much as Shoppach this year (7 games), and had better results - .238/.312.362 - and both of them croaked Salty.

BTW, he caught Buchholz 5 games and got these results: .233/.291/.338 - well better than Shoppach and again far far better then Salty.

In his only start with Doubront, Lavarnway also had the lowest slash allowed compared to the other two.

Perhaps some folks are substituting what you have heard from "them", for the reality of the situation?

Buchholz was a mess to begin the season, and that wasnt Salty's fault.

bagwell368
10-09-2012, 11:33 AM
Buchholz was a mess to begin the season, and that wasnt Salty's fault.

Interesting theory.

From Aug 1st onward, Buchholz had two bad starts:

Aug 22nd 7 ER in 5 1/3 IP

Oct 1st 8 ER in 1 2/3 IP

Both caught by Salty.

==============================

Lavarnway GS: 05 IP: 35.2 ERA: 3.79 .233/.291/.338 tOPS+: 068

Jarrd Salty GS: 13 IP: 75.2 ERA: 6.30 .318/.392/.543 tOPS+: 146

Shoppach GS: 11 IP: 78.0 ERA: 3.23 .217/.281/.341 tOPS+: 065

Shoppach caught Buchholz more than Salty did when he was here including early in the year. Look at the ERA and hitters marks.

Salty got piped twice after Shoppach left and Lavarnway did not. Sure looks like Salty didn't do the job - in particular with Lesters stats added in as well.

taffi101
10-09-2012, 11:45 AM
so im assuming your for the "kansas city rebuild program", which is getting high draft picks hoping and praying that the farm system delivers the red sox from mediocrity and maybe just maybe the red sox will be competitive in 2015 at the earliest.

I doubt that the KC rebuild will be a template the Sox ever use, now or in the foreseeable future. Being more methodical with the farm, utilizing top prospects on the MLB roster rather than dealing them away for bits and pieces, and high priced talent will become more the norm, rather than what has accurred over the past few years.


You honestly think the red sox could afford to be uncompetitive for 2-3 more years, the main source of income for the red sox is adtvertising and the pink hats and 2-3 more years of losing would be devastating to both.

Could not agree more. I think they could sustain one more year of maybe not losing, but better than mediocrity, before the stones start being cast.

It's a different generation,that is this one here and now, then when I grew up. I lived through some pretty sour patches of watching the Sox.

To put in in context....I'm not a pink hat, I've been a fan since 76', but I did get rid of my cable tv sportspak this year, around the first week of Aug., and that is the first time in almost 10 years, that I haven't had it. I was willing drive the 3 hours to Portland to watch the AA team, before spending the $30 a month to watch the worst Red Sox team I've ever seen.


Its going to be harder and harder to sign free agent elite bats and elite arms as teams are locking up players to long term contracts during there arb years.

Monetary wise, the Sox after clearing the contract mess they had on their hands in August, should be able to be in play for most top free agents going forward. They have to be a bit more diligent in their signings I believe.( IE Carl Crawford).

One problem they could face now and in the immediate future in regards to FA signing is players just not wanting to play or sign with Boston. Alot of bad or negativity seemed to ooze out this year. Now winning has a way of sweeping all that aside, but there has to some substance to reports...



And who cares how if they signed Hamilton for 4/100 and Napoli to 3/39 if it doesnt effect there payroll flexiblity, and unless you are and investor or owner it shouldn't matter.

The problem I see with Hamilton is the same most see. A tone of talent, but a massive head case as well. That's a ton of money to pay to an " I think so, or I hope so".

After just getting out from under the massive contract mistakes they just made in prior years, it would be very irresponsible to jump right back into that same dilemma, especially for a guy like Hamilton with some BIG question marks IMO.

The Sox seem committed to go with the Salty/Lavarnway combo behind the plate. Napoli doesn't offer the same value if you plan to use him primarily at 1B or DH. Now alot could happen over the off-season, and he may become more viable out of necessity, but with the current construct of this team moving forward, I don't see him in the mix, at what his cost will probably end up. I could be very wrong though.....



enough of defending my suggestions, what exactly is your plan? let me guess let the youngsters play and sign low salary complimentary free agents like they did in 2004(papi,millar,mueller), only problem with that is they had an elite bat(manny ramirez 8/160) in the middle of the lineup that was the driving force.

I think you have to try and give your top levels prospect a chance. No way you can fill a roster entirely with them and expect to compete. Allowing them the time to develop and grow and knowing when to fish or cut bait with them is key.

The 04' Sox were in a much better better position to compete than this current team. The complimentary guys they signed were only part of the equation. Trading for Schilling was huge. This current team rather than the 04' one has huge gaping holes.

BostonSports96
10-09-2012, 03:14 PM
Buchholz was a mess to begin the season, and that wasnt Salty's fault.

Salty is a horrid defensive catcher, and he's not helping the rotation at all.

Good riddance once he leaves.

Nomar
10-09-2012, 03:18 PM
Salty is a horrid defensive catcher, and he's not helping the rotation at all.

Good riddance once he leaves.

Yeah im still in favor of trading him

grandsalami
10-09-2012, 03:18 PM
Yeah im still in favor of trading him

I only let him go if we get something good in return. not just for the sake of trading him

Nomar
10-09-2012, 03:24 PM
I only let him go if we get something good in return. not just for the sake of trading him

Oh of course.

The Mets still seem like a great fit to me and we could really use Ike Davis.

BostonSports96
10-09-2012, 03:25 PM
Oh of course.

The Mets still seem like a great fit to me and we could really use Ike Davis.

+1

Let's see.....Salty + Bard + specs?

Nomar
10-09-2012, 03:27 PM
+1

Let's see.....Salty + Bard + specs?

Salty + Aceves is what id rather see

Salty and Bard alone should be enough. Ike Davis isnt that special, no matter what the Mets say.

BostonSports96
10-09-2012, 03:31 PM
Salty + Aceves is what id rather see

Salty and Bard alone should be enough. Ike Davis isnt that special, no matter what the Mets say.

They won't accept Aceves, he is trash now, Bard is a lot more appealing.

And for Davis, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

ruckus16969
10-09-2012, 04:53 PM
I know but im just talking about who i would like to see there. And honestly Smoak wouldnt take much. I would be fine with giving up Brentz to land one too (Belt or Davis i mean).

I'm set with Smoak. May as well just re-sign Loney

Nomar
10-09-2012, 05:10 PM
I'm set with Smoak. May as well just re-sign Loney

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/where-theres-smoak-theres-something/

http://mynorthwest.com/374/896969/Why-this-September-could-be-different-for-Smoak

ruckus16969
10-09-2012, 05:35 PM
I want Napoli on a 3 year deal (maybe 4 if thats what it takes), because he is a beast in fenway.

Let him play some 1B, C, and DH.

I'd take him He's been good for Texas and his last year and a half and the Angels he was good. And before that he was just learning the league like most catchers at that age.


If we give up Ellsbury to get Davis i might kill myself

LOL


No way Lester & Buchholz are going anywhere. They can't trade them when their value is at an all time low. Ellsbury? Maybe, but highly doubtful. Our starting pitching staff (Lester,Lackey,Buchholz, and Doubrount), is set for next year.

I doubt our pitching staff is set for next year. I would actually bet my life it won't look like that.


Salty is a horrid defensive catcher, and he's not helping the rotation at all.

Good riddance once he leaves.

I couldn't disagree more I like Salty as our back up. I know he'll probably be traded. But I'm still not ready to give up on him. What ever team trades for him will get a good player and team mate

BackyardRounder
10-09-2012, 06:18 PM
Colorado's Troy Tulowitzki would welcome going to a new team, we've been told.

http://articles.boston.com/2012-09-13/sports/33820275_1_aceves-lame-duck-andrew-bailey/2

It's probably a pipe dream, but Tulowitzki did grow up idolizing Garciapparra, even wearng #5 in college. He's under contract for a while, so he'd be around when we became more competitive.

Crucis
10-09-2012, 06:33 PM
I couldn't disagree more I like Salty as our back up. I know he'll probably be traded. But I'm still not ready to give up on him. What ever team trades for him will get a good player and team mate

I don't like Salty as a backup. He's got to have more value than as a mere backup catcher, given the general paucity of good catching talent in MLB these days. Better to trade him for something useful, like a decent 1B-man while his value is about as good as it's gonna get. And then go out and find a nice cheap career backup catcher for short money. Also, turning him into a backup catcher isn't going to do anything good for his trade value.

Also if Salty's still on the club, and Lavarnway gets given the starting job, I could see Salty being rather unhappy. I'd rather just avoid the potential mess and trade him while his value is pretty decent.

SirHizz
10-09-2012, 06:47 PM
I think blaming Salty for the sorry pitching-staff is a mistake an a workaround from the truth. In 2011 in general, Lester and Buchholz ERA's with Salty behind the plate were pretty good IIRC.

Personally, I don't see Salty as a long term solution behind the plate, but he's hardly the reason for our pitching woes. As if Guys like Verlander and Felix would suddenly suck with Salty catching them.

But yes, we almost have to trade him. Catching market is thin (as usual) and Salty's power-numbers are outstanding at his position. We don't need it, we have other holes to fill and have to test Lavarnway. Let the kid play the majority part of the season and sign a BU-catcher in the mold of Shoppach (only with a more likable character)

taffi101
10-09-2012, 06:50 PM
I don't like Salty as a backup. He's got to have more value than as a mere backup catcher, given the general paucity of good catching talent in MLB these days. Better to trade him for something useful, like a decent 1B-man while his value is about as good as it's gonna get. And then go out and find a nice cheap career backup catcher for short money. Also, turning him into a backup catcher isn't going to do anything good for his trade value.

Also if Salty's still on the club, and Lavarnway gets given the starting job, I could see Salty being rather unhappy. I'd rather just avoid the potential mess and trade him while his value is pretty decent.

Salty feels he has paid his dues and has earned the right to be an everyday catcher, taking a back seat won't sit too well. If this team is hellbent on giving the starting job to Lavarnway, then now is the time to deal Salty, when his value is at it's highest.

I personally think he will be dealt. When you look at this roster, he is the one moveable part that has some value, and is replaceable, so to speak.

Lavarnway could put up a slash line somewhere similar to Salty I believe if given the full time catching gig. There are a few bodies on the FA market that could fill in as back-up for short time & money.....

bagwell368
10-09-2012, 09:48 PM
I think blaming Salty for the sorry pitching-staff is a mistake an a workaround from the truth. In 2011 in general, Lester and Buchholz ERA's with Salty behind the plate were pretty good IIRC.

Personally, I don't see Salty as a long term solution behind the plate, but he's hardly the reason for our pitching woes. As if Guys like Verlander and Felix would suddenly suck with Salty catching them.

But yes, we almost have to trade him. Catching market is thin (as usual) and Salty's power-numbers are outstanding at his position. We don't need it, we have other holes to fill and have to test Lavarnway. Let the kid play the majority part of the season and sign a BU-catcher in the mold of Shoppach (only with a more likable character)

See post #104. Lavarnway was a bit better with Lester and Buccholz than Shoppach. Both of them were hugely better than Salty.

I've been talking about dealing Salty for some time and get a Shoppach like back-up (without the noxious personality) for at most two years and give Lavarnway 3/5 of the games. After another 500 PA's Lavarnway will be a better hitter than Salty, and a better Defensive catcher if he isn't already.

papipapsmanny
10-09-2012, 09:52 PM
Honestly if these 5 things were to happen it would be my idea of a perfect offseason

Trade Clay, Aviles, Kalish, and Bard (if need be) to the Diamondbacks for Justin Upton

Trade Ellsbury for Elvis Andrus

Sign Anibal Sanchez, any where from a 3-5 WAR pitcher, and will be 29 in feb, not too old at all

Sign Ross to a 2 year team with a team option for a 3rd

Sign Ortiz to a two year deal (I really only put this here because it seems inevitable)

Lester
Sanchez
Doubront
De La Rossa (I mean he has already started in the MLB)
Lackey (who knows maybe he can do something)

Andrus SS
Pedroia 2B
Ortiz DH
Upton RF
Middlebrooks 3B
Ross LF
Lavarnway 1B (I mean its worth a shot if were going in not expecting to win right?)
Salty C (trade him in season if not competing and he is doing well)
Some filler guy at CF until Bradley is ready

BostonSports96
10-10-2012, 12:25 AM
Honestly if these 5 things were to happen it would be my idea of a perfect offseason

Trade Clay, Aviles, Kalish, and Bard (if need be) to the Diamondbacks for Justin Upton

Trade Ellsbury for Elvis Andrus

Sign Anibal Sanchez, any where from a 3-5 WAR pitcher, and will be 29 in feb, not too old at all

Sign Ross to a 2 year team with a team option for a 3rd

Sign Ortiz to a two year deal (I really only put this here because it seems inevitable)

I'm good with most of it. Drop the Justin Upton dreams though, I'd rather keep Buccholz and not sign Sanchez (he sucks).

Nomar
10-10-2012, 12:26 AM
Honestly if these 5 things were to happen it would be my idea of a perfect offseason

Trade Clay, Aviles, Kalish, and Bard (if need be) to the Diamondbacks for Justin Upton

Trade Ellsbury for Elvis Andrus

Sign Anibal Sanchez, any where from a 3-5 WAR pitcher, and will be 29 in feb, not too old at all

Sign Ross to a 2 year team with a team option for a 3rd

Sign Ortiz to a two year deal (I really only put this here because it seems inevitable)

Lester
Sanchez
Doubront
De La Rossa (I mean he has already started in the MLB)
Lackey (who knows maybe he can do something)

Andrus SS
Pedroia 2B
Ortiz DH
Upton RF
Middlebrooks 3B
Ross LF
Lavarnway 1B (I mean its worth a shot if were going in not expecting to win right?)
Salty C (trade him in season if not competing and he is doing well)
Some filler guy at CF until Bradley is ready

If we traded for Davis/Smoak too i would endorse this. Salty could be the center of a deal for Davis and Smoak could be obtained pretty painlessly.

I think Clay + Kalish is an overpay too, but not too amazing. Upton has unimpressive splits, "attitude problems", and had a down year, but i still love the potential. Sanchez is a decent replacement for Buccholz; at least he stays healthier. And Kalish is expendble especially if Upton is acquired given that Bogaerts looks destined for a corner OF spot and Bradley will be our CF in 2014. We also have Brentz who i consider expendable as well. People have their doubts with Upton, understandably so, but i just have faith in the kid.

De La Rosa wont start the year in the rotation though, but im not against throwing Morales until he is. I also think signing Haren makes sense. He could return to form and be great, and wont be a big risk if we sign him now. De La Rosa will have an opportunity because of injury next year, thats pretty much a guarantee. I wouldnt not sign a 5th starter banking on him.

Lester
Haren
Sanchez
Doubront
Lackey
De La Rosa

Thats fine by me.

papipapsmanny
10-10-2012, 01:01 AM
I'm good with most of it. Drop the Justin Upton dreams though, I'd rather keep Buccholz and not sign Sanchez (he sucks).

hes better than clay, not really close either

bagwell368
10-10-2012, 09:45 AM
Honestly if these 5 things were to happen it would be my idea of a perfect offseason

Trade Clay, Aviles, Kalish, and Bard (if need be) to the Diamondbacks for Justin Upton

Trade Ellsbury for Elvis Andrus

Sign Anibal Sanchez, any where from a 3-5 WAR pitcher, and will be 29 in feb, not too old at all

Sign Ross to a 2 year team with a team option for a 3rd

Sign Ortiz to a two year deal (I really only put this here because it seems inevitable)

Lester
Sanchez
Doubront
De La Rossa (I mean he has already started in the MLB)
Lackey (who knows maybe he can do something)

Andrus SS
Pedroia 2B
Ortiz DH
Upton RF
Middlebrooks 3B
Ross LF
Lavarnway 1B (I mean its worth a shot if were going in not expecting to win right?)
Salty C (trade him in season if not competing and he is doing well)
Some filler guy at CF until Bradley is ready

Pretty good, but you'll never score Upton with a good SP with injury issues and 3 retreads. They'll want young upside - I.E. 4 kids, at least two top 5, and the others top 12. I might do the your deal, I would never do the my deal.

BostonSports96
10-10-2012, 03:41 PM
hes better than clay, not really close either

Um, what are you on? Clay is way better than Anibal Sanchez

Nomar
10-10-2012, 04:14 PM
Um, what are you on? Clay is way better than Anibal Sanchez

Clay is always hurt. He had a great 2010 season (5.2 rWAR i believe), but besides that year Sanchez has been more valuable. That being said, Buchholz's stuff is better. But if we could get someone like Upton for Buchholz and sign Sanchez as a substitute that makes perfect sense to me.

bagwell368
10-10-2012, 04:18 PM
Um, what are you on? Clay is way better than Anibal Sanchez

Sanchez has been over 190 IP 3 years in a row. Consistent as well.

Buchholz has never gotten that far. Buccholz's 2010 skews his career line way up. Outside of that, he's no better then Sanchez.

So, Sanchez seems more reliable and Buchholz seems to have more upside. Different, but I have a hard time being able to label either one as "way better". Although if you factor in the money paid to date, Sanchez easily gave more per $.

Station 13
10-11-2012, 12:19 AM
If we're starter hungry, we might want to try Tazawa out this spring.

AI
10-11-2012, 02:18 AM
Keep Taz in the pen, he's filthy there.

Station 13
10-11-2012, 10:26 AM
Keep Taz in the pen, he's filthy there.

Yeah he is, he became unhittable around July and beyond.

Still you have nothing to lose this spring to see what he can do.

Nomar
10-11-2012, 10:41 AM
Nothing to lose? Tell that to Bard!

I say keep him there. He already had TJ, why put him at greater risk for an injury when hes already an asset there in the pen?

I would rather have them try to convert Miller back to a starter than Tazawa.

Station 13
10-11-2012, 10:51 AM
Nothing to lose? Tell that to Bard!

I say keep him there. He already had TJ, why put him at greater risk for an injury when hes already an asset there in the pen?

I would rather have them try to convert Miller back to a starter than Tazawa.

Bard was just a bad case of diarrhea.

Taz had legit pitches and control for starting.

Remember his first start?

http://redsox.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=6053845&c_id=mlb

Nomar
10-11-2012, 10:57 AM
Bard was just a bad case of diarrhea.

Taz had legit pitches and control for starting.

Remember his first start?

http://redsox.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=6053845&c_id=mlb

He throws a lot harder post surgery/in the pen. Do you think he'd still throw 95 throughout 7 innings? It's hard to tell

Unless he would be a #3 or #2 starter id keep him in the pen. We have so many young guys coming up in the next couple of years and have Lester, Doubront, and Buchholz all cemented in the rotation unless one is traded.

Station 13
10-11-2012, 11:02 AM
He throws a lot harder post surgery/in the pen. Do you think he'd still throw 95 throughout 7 innings? It's hard to tell

Unless he would be a #3 or #2 starter id keep him in the pen. We have so many young guys coming up in the next couple of years and have Lester, Doubront, and Buchholz all cemented in the rotation unless one is traded.

How many starters throw that hard? Just a handful. He gets out by locating pitches.

If he is a rock in spring tryout we have a good candidate for starting. He could just slide back to the pen if it doesn't look anything more than a backend type starter.

He has done long relieve this year and throw 3-4 innings and maintain 93-95, let's see how he does as a starter before writing him off.

bagwell368
10-11-2012, 11:10 AM
Nothing to lose? Tell that to Bard!

I say keep him there. He already had TJ, why put him at greater risk for an injury when hes already an asset there in the pen?

I would rather have them try to convert Miller back to a starter than Tazawa.

Pitchers in the pen, in particular good ones are at greater risk for injury than SP's.

Celtic AL
10-11-2012, 11:32 AM
Taz should stay in the pen. Also the rotation I expect Ben and or Larry to bring in project pitchers again until Rubby or Webster are ready. But I wouldnt rule out Ben or Larry signing signing a solid pitch (Haren, McCarthy ect)

-Lavigne43-
10-11-2012, 06:51 PM
It just makes too much sense to strongly explore trading Clay. A's got Jarrod Parker for Cahill, and people thought that was not enough in return if I remember correctly. Some NL team will value Clay highly. I strongly believe he would be really good in the NL.

Nomar
10-11-2012, 08:11 PM
It just makes too much sense to strongly explore trading Clay. A's got Jarrod Parker for Cahill, and people thought that was not enough in return if I remember correctly. Some NL team will value Clay highly. I strongly believe he would be really good in the NL.

Definitely. Just like how Becket has a sub 3 ERA there this season and Burnett was solid. Buchholz would destroy the NL.

It really makes a lot of sense to deal him.

SirHizz
10-11-2012, 09:42 PM
It just makes too much sense to strongly explore trading Clay. A's got Jarrod Parker for Cahill, and people thought that was not enough in return if I remember correctly. Some NL team will value Clay highly. I strongly believe he would be really good in the NL.

I agree with you, but wouldn't it be difficult to sell to RSN if Ben trades one of the only 2 real lock's for the rotation?

-Lavigne43-
10-12-2012, 01:10 AM
If what RSN thinks has an effect on baseball operations I have significant concerns about this organization. RSN thinks it would be a terrific idea to sign Hamilton, no matter the cost. I fear that this could be the case, but I'm hopeful the recent failure will stop that. I want the organization that let most of the 2004 team go, not the one that kept Mike Lowell. The Ross contract talks will answer this question depending how much interest other teams have in him.

Celtic AL
10-12-2012, 01:27 AM
I'm all for trading buch and getting some young pitching. Same goes to Lester!

Celtic AL
10-12-2012, 09:38 AM
I would trade both Lester & buch. I agree with lav there are NL Teams that they would pay a pretty price for buch! Arizona could be one of those teams

MoVaughnsLunch
10-12-2012, 10:04 AM
Realistically,

We won't deal Lester and Bucholz and we shouldn't. I think, moving forward, we should focus on getting Lester sorted. It wasn't too long ago that Peter Gammons called Lester his first pick in all of baseball for someoe to build around. He just needs to get his ******* together.

Bucholz on the other hand, I think he is one of our few trade chips. On our ML roster, I see Bucholz, Ellsbury, Aviles, Sweeney, Kalish, Saltalamacchia and Duobront as our primary trade chips. We'll see what kids we have to include in any deal but if we move those guys and don't touch our top five specs then I think we're gonna be in good shape.

Nomar
10-12-2012, 10:27 AM
Realistically,

We won't deal Lester and Bucholz and we shouldn't. I think, moving forward, we should focus on getting Lester sorted. It wasn't too long ago that Peter Gammons called Lester his first pick in all of baseball for someoe to build around. He just needs to get his ******* together.

Bucholz on the other hand, I think he is one of our few trade chips. On our ML roster, I see Bucholz, Ellsbury, Aviles, Sweeney, Kalish, Saltalamacchia and Duobront as our primary trade chips. We'll see what kids we have to include in any deal but if we move those guys and don't touch our top five specs then I think we're gonna be in good shape.

Doubront doesnt make much sense to trade. He's probably only going to improve this year, and then his value will be a lot higher.

Buchholz im down to trade.

Nomar
10-12-2012, 10:35 AM
Rick Porcello is another option via trade. Hes a change of scenery candidate and is very young (23). He isnt an FA until 2016. As a ground ball pitcher hed be better off with our infield than the Tigers'.

Celtic AL
10-12-2012, 11:04 AM
I'd trade Buch to the Rockies for prospects SS Trevor Story and LHP Tyler Anderson. IMO rockes need a #1 since the whole Rockies 10 man rotation did bleep

bagwell368
10-12-2012, 11:04 AM
Realistically,

We won't deal Lester and Bucholz and we shouldn't. I think, moving forward, we should focus on getting Lester sorted. It wasn't too long ago that Peter Gammons called Lester his first pick in all of baseball for someoe to build around. He just needs to get his ******* together.

Bucholz on the other hand, I think he is one of our few trade chips. On our ML roster, I see Bucholz, Ellsbury, Aviles, Sweeney, Kalish, Saltalamacchia and Duobront as our primary trade chips. We'll see what kids we have to include in any deal but if we move those guys and don't touch our top five specs then I think we're gonna be in good shape.

Lester did get his stuff together, and has pitched much better these past two years than most give him credit for.

I think you can trade anybody for more return, but deal both Lester and Buchholz this off season doesn't seem wise and I hope it doesn't take place.

Nomar
10-12-2012, 11:07 AM
I'd trade Buch to the Rockies for prospects SS Trevor Story and LHP Tyler Anderson. IMO rockes need a #1 since the whole Rockies 10 man rotation did bleep

I love Story. I would rather get Pomeranz than Anderson, which might take another piece on our end, but overall i like it.

CeltBruinSoxFan
10-12-2012, 12:26 PM
Since we're talking NL, why not try and trade him to the Cubs? Theo knows what he has and may want him in that rotation.

BOS trade Buchholz, Ellsbury, Kallish and Iglesias

CHC Castro and Rizzo

I would be interested in that trade. not sure if anyone else would be though. Doubt Theo trades Starlin after just extending him.

Nomar
10-12-2012, 12:41 PM
The Cubs are so far away from competing. They won't take on Ellsbury at this point and won't trade Castro. Rizzo may have a slim chance of being available because of Vogelbach but I think that the cubs will go with short term FAs until they're team is more developed.

That trade would make me ejaculate though. I would add Ranaudo and Bard to it too, a couple more passion projects for theo

MoVaughnsLunch
10-12-2012, 01:12 PM
That trade with the Cubs would never happen. I don't want to trade with the cubs anyways. The reason I listed duobront is because he fell off pretty bad this year and is a fairly young arm we could probably get good value for.

I wonder what kind of value we could get for ellesbury this offseason...

Soxfan85
10-12-2012, 01:34 PM
Boston.CBS

Report: John Henry Selling Minority Stake Of Fenway Sports Group

This time, Charlie Gasparino and Matt Egan report, “Henry is seeking a minority owner for the Fenway Sports Group, the holding company that owns the Red Sox.”



“The current thinking, executives say, is that Henry is entertaining the idea of selling a minority stake, or what’s known as a ‘limited partnership,’ in the holding company that he controls,” Gasparino and Egan reported.

slugger82685
10-12-2012, 01:59 PM
Since we're talking NL, why not try and trade him to the Cubs? Theo knows what he has and may want him in that rotation.

BOS trade Buchholz, Ellsbury, Kallish and Iglesias

CHC Castro and Rizzo

I would be interested in that trade. not sure if anyone else would be though. Doubt Theo trades Starlin after just extending him.


wow, you guys have a distorted view of the value of your players....Kalish and Iglesias pretty much have no value and havnet really proven anything. Ellsbury is injury prone and only has one year left on his contract, and Buchholz has only had one solid season in his career....so why in the world would the Cubs trade their two top young players one of which is a proven SS and the other showed great progress with power for your scraps? That is like a ridiculous video game trade

Nomar
10-12-2012, 03:04 PM
wow, you guys have a distorted view of the value of your players....

Relax with the trolling.


Kalish and Iglesias pretty much have no value and havnet really proven anything. Ellsbury is injury prone and only has one year left on his contract, and Buchholz has only had one solid season in his career....so why in the world would the Cubs trade their two top young players one of which is a proven SS and the other showed great progress with power for your scraps? That is like a ridiculous video game trade

Yeah Ellsbury and Buchholz wouldnt make Chicago a competitive team so idk why they would trade their youth for them.

Rizzo could be replaced by vogelbach eventually, but i doubt they would trade a recently extended long term SS solution.

Really just makes little sense for chicago at this point to trade either.

j-bay
10-12-2012, 06:56 PM
kind of off topic
Pete Abraham‏@PeteAbe
At the rate Swisher is going, #RedSox can get him for one of those $3 million make good Cody Ross deals.

:laugh2:

bagwell368
10-12-2012, 08:21 PM
wow, you guys have a distorted view of the value of your players....Kalish and Iglesias pretty much have no value and havnet really proven anything. Ellsbury is injury prone and only has one year left on his contract, and Buchholz has only had one solid season in his career....so why in the world would the Cubs trade their two top young players one of which is a proven SS and the other showed great progress with power for your scraps? That is like a ridiculous video game trade

I agree. Red Sox fans like most fans overrate their players. This deal as proposed has no shot of going through.

bagwell368
10-12-2012, 08:29 PM
The reason I listed duobront is because he fell off pretty bad this year and is a fairly young arm we could probably get good value for.

I wonder what kind of value we could get for ellesbury this offseason...

Duobront fell off pretty bad? He had a bad stretch of 6 out 7 games that were not that great, but finished off with 4 strong starts. A lefty that's 24 and didn't get blown up in the AL East? Yeah - what a bum.

Buchholz was about as good first 36 starts stretched over 3 years - should have traded that piece of junk too eh?

SirHizz
10-12-2012, 08:40 PM
Duobront fell off pretty bad? He had a bad stretch of 6 out 7 games that were not that great, but finished off with 4 strong starts. A lefty that's 24 and didn't get blown up in the AL East? Yeah - what a bum.

Buchholz was about as good first 36 starts stretched over 3 years - should have traded that piece of junk too eh?

Spot on, Bags. Way too early to give up on Douby. No way we are getting fair return since his stats read worse than he actually pitched. Until some point in June (?), he happened to be our best starter. And then there was the rough stretch you were talking about.

Douby reminds me a bit of the early Lester. Really tough to hit, but wild and therefore unable to last long into games. Don't think Felix' control is all that bad, he just doesn't attack the zone enough. Of course there is a chance he never gets completely over the hump (ceiling IMO a #2 starter), but it's definitely worth to hold onto him.

MoVaughnsLunch
10-12-2012, 08:57 PM
Hence trade value no?

Crucis
10-12-2012, 09:03 PM
Duobront fell off pretty bad? He had a bad stretch of 6 out 7 games that were not that great, but finished off with 4 strong starts. A lefty that's 24 and didn't get blown up in the AL East? Yeah - what a bum.

Let's also not forget that (I think) that this season, Doubront pitched the most innings of his career. Is it any wonder that he may have had some stretches late in the season where he was tired?

Give him another year or two to build him his endurance and he'll be fine in this regard.

Nomar
10-12-2012, 10:00 PM
Doubront is not a trade candidate IMO nothing we can get would give equal value back and hes the type of guy we need anyway.

-Lavigne43-
10-13-2012, 01:20 AM
The point of trading Buchholz is a team overvaluing him because of his stuff and his contract enables you to trade him to any team. He also pitched well after April. Red Sox fans definitely overrate him, which is why they scoff at trading him. I don't think he will be more than a 3-4 pitcher. He has durability issues and he has the type of frame you worry about holding up once he gets older. He's only 6 months younger than Lester, I feel people think he is younger than he is.

bagwell368
10-13-2012, 09:37 AM
Let's also not forget that (I think) that this season, Doubront pitched the most innings of his career. Is it any wonder that he may have had some stretches late in the season where he was tired?

Give him another year or two to build him his endurance and he'll be fine in this regard.

I started my response with that angle but figured it was too abstruse... good job bringing it out.

Lester and Duobront should not be dealt - unless the offer is very high.

Buchholz should be dealt - if the offer is good or better.

Nomar
10-13-2012, 10:22 AM
I started my response with that angle but figured it was too abstruse... good job bringing it out.

Lester and Duobront should not be dealt - unless the offer is very high.

Buchholz should be dealt - if the offer is good or better.

Whats hard to understand about building endurance? Anyway, i feel the same way about that in a sense that he wont hit the wall like he did in late June this year. Hopefully he can go 180 IP next year at least.

Either way, hes still going to have to command his FB better. His # of pitches per inning is too high even in the first couple innings. Whether thats more of a command problem or him just trying to bite the corners of the zone, i dont know, but he does have to be a bit more efficient to make it past the 6th more than twice a season.

BostonSports96
10-16-2012, 10:37 PM
I know he has a huge contract and major inure issues, but if we could get Mauer for virtually nothing while taking on the whole contract (or some specs while making Minnesota eat half the money), would anybody be interested?

He's a better defensive catcher than Salty/Lavarnway and can play some 1B for us.

Just food for thought.

AI
10-16-2012, 11:02 PM
I highly doubt Minnesota would eat half his salary, Mauer is still a very valuable player.

Crucis
10-16-2012, 11:21 PM
I know he has a huge contract and major inure issues, but if we could get Mauer for virtually nothing while taking on the whole contract (or some specs while making Minnesota eat half the money), would anybody be interested?

He's a better defensive catcher than Salty/Lavarnway and can play some 1B for us.

Just food for thought.

I doubt that the Twins would give Mauer (and 100% of his contract) for next to nothing, unless they're desperate to dump him... which I don't see.

bagwell368
10-17-2012, 08:50 AM
I know he has a huge contract and major inure issues, but if we could get Mauer for virtually nothing while taking on the whole contract (or some specs while making Minnesota eat half the money), would anybody be interested?

He's a better defensive catcher than Salty/Lavarnway and can play some 1B for us.

Just food for thought.

If you want full value out of Mauer, his days as a catcher are numbered. He'd be a 1B/DH type.

His contract is daunting, I wouldn't take it on.

$23M
$23M
$23M
$23M
$23M
$23M

I'd take $5M, $7M, $9M, $11M, $13M, $15M for each year back from Minny to take him. That's $60M off of $138M or $78M over 6 years. For $13M a year AAV, I'd give Minny 3 specs - we protect 5, they pick, we protect 4 more, they pick, 4 more, they pick. So they'd end up with theoretically the 6th, 11th, 16th best players from our system.

Problem is they have to eat $78M over 6 years, and figure a way around his no trade clause, and take crap in the local press for getting rid of the home town hero.

Ain't happening.

I like the idea of Morneau much better.

ruckus16969
10-17-2012, 02:05 PM
kind of off topic
Pete Abraham‏@PeteAbe
At the rate Swisher is going, #RedSox can get him for one of those $3 million make good Cody Ross deals.

:laugh2:

Thats awesome

Sullivan-Sox15!
10-19-2012, 08:55 AM
I'm thinking a trade with a small market team like Kansas City is the best way to fix the Sox. They have talent at spots and lets face it they won't have the cash to resign them when their contracts run out why not take advantage of a bigger market team looking to rebuild.
I'm thinking a trade that looks like this

Boston Gets:
1B- Billy Butler(solves their 1B problem)
LF- Alex Gordon( solves their OF problem)
P- Joakim Soria (depth to the bullpen, a setup man for Bailey)

Kansas City Gets:
P- Daniel Bard (before he loses all value, and would be cheap for Kansas City and they can use him to be the closer or put him in the rotation)
INF- Garin Cecchini
SS- Xander Bogaerts (as good as they think he will be do you honestly ever see this kid playing SS for the Sox on a regular basis)
OF- Ryan Kalish( would be better for a team like the royals than or the Sox)
P- Alfredo Aceves( cheap and face it he needs to be out of Boston he intentionally tanked towards the end I think because he was upset with his role)
OF- Brandon Jacobs(decent spec., pure speculation and with Brentz and hopefully resigning Ellsbury I no more than 16 a yr where does he fit)(also Jackie Bradley Jr coming up.)
P- Chris Carpenter
P- Zach Stewart (get something out of that horrible Youkilis Trade)
C- Blake Swihart( with Salty playing his best ball now and Lavarnway in the wings where does this kid fit)

Obviously this won't be a 9 for 3 player trade as that would be a big one but I would love to have all 3 of those guys and your gonna have to pay big for Butler with him being young and a power hitter.

So the break down would be:
Bogaerts
Cecchini
Bard
Jacobs

FOR
Billy Butler

Kalish
Swihart
Aceves

FOR
Alex Gordan

And than

Carpenter
Stewart

FOR
Joakim Soria

Question 1 would you do a trade for those 3 from KC
Question 2 who would you trade for them/ did I give up too much or not enough
Question 3 do you think this would fix the Sox

Envision:

Ellsbury CF
Pedroia 2B
Butler 1B
Ortiz DH
Ross RF
Middlebrooks 3B
Gordan LF
Saltalamacchia C
Iglesias SS

Than Sign Peavy to a 3yr deal

1. Lester
2. Peavy
3. Buchholz
4. Lackey
5. Doubront

SU. Soria
CL. Bailey

Looks good to me maybe sign either Broxton or Francisco Rodriguez for more bullpen help

Lets hear what ya think sorry this was so long I have just been pondering on this since The August Trade.

Sullivan-Sox15!
10-19-2012, 09:06 AM
Butler: scheduled to make 28.5 million over next 3 years arnt gonna get his value that cheap anywhere else

Gordon: 44 million on next 4 years decent pay check Swisher who everyone thinks the sox should sign want Jayson Werth money. Even if he goes with his projected 4yr 56 million Gordan is cheaper

Soria: 17 million over next 2 years not a bad price for a once dominant closer with the royals. That's gotta be a tough job haha although I kno he just had tommy John for the second time I believe but I could be wrong.

Your getting 3 players who are locked up for the next 2-4 years at a decent price

CeltBruinSoxFan
10-19-2012, 09:15 AM
Yea, I don't think this is at all plausible from a red sox standpoint. You have us giving up some pretty good prospects for an over-achieving 1B, an under-achieving OF and a coming-off-tj surgery closer?
That ain't going to happen, not to mention you included Bogaerts in this deal. Bogaerts is a future stud for this team, whether its 3B, SS or OF. no way we give him up for the likes of Butler or Gordan.

Now after saying that, I think Butler would be a good trade if we could land him, but after the year he had, he won't be cheap.
I would rather spend more prospects and go after Justin Upton over Alex Gordon, IMO.

Sullivan-Sox15!
10-19-2012, 09:28 AM
I like what your thinking too and I absolutely hate trading sprospects I love the idea of building from within but in order to get something you gotta give up something

I would be happy with just Butler to be honest.
What do you think we would have to give KC just to get Butler?

Cecchini
Kalish
Swihart
Aceves
Brentz

Would that be enough or would you rather keep those guys and sign a
Mike Napoli or Adam Laroche or sign Swisher to play 1B

The other thing I have been thinking is maybe Joe Mauer. I love they guy and I think would have more longevity if he stayed at first.

Would a packed of :

John Lackey(just to keep the money around the same so we arnt just taking all of Mauers money)
Felix Doubront
Kalish
Cecchini

For
Joe Mauer
Daniel Turpen

I hate to seem like a noob just throwing out ridiculous ideas but they are all on my mind and I'm looking to you guys to tell me hey yeah that would be nice good thinking or hey dude you don't know your a@@ from your elbow that can't happen we need to do this

Trading lackey and Doubront could mean adding

Peavy and McCarthy to the staff and have say Franklin Morales be our 5th starter

Adding Mauer subtracting Lackey and having a staff of
Lester
Peavy
Buchholz
McCarthy
Morales
Looks good on paper but could it happen.

And what are some of you guys ideas for our:

Pitching Problem
1st Base problem
SS problem
OF problem.

Yankee$ Hater
10-19-2012, 10:11 AM
h-o-r-r-i-b-l-e

Nomar
10-19-2012, 10:13 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZY0W1HLsoo

First trade: You dont trade a potential perennial all star for a DH, let alone another potential all star in Cecchini, and a guy with high upside in Jacobs. Butler was a 3.2 fWAR guy this year, and he wont get much better than that.

The second and third trade are reasonable, but a LF who's value has a big portion coming from defense doesnt fit well in Fenway. I would also like to trade Swihart (if at all) when he is of more value. I think he will only get better. If they move him off catcher he could be a stud hitter and if they keep him at C he looks like he'll be able to produce on both sides of the ball. In their heads they'd be trading for Wil Myers Jr.

Station 13
10-19-2012, 10:15 AM
Trading Bogaerts is insane unless the return is a young King Felix.

Nomar
10-19-2012, 10:16 AM
Trading Bogaerts is insane unless the return is a young King Felix.

How you gonna make King Felix younger? :D

Station 13
10-19-2012, 10:21 AM
How you gonna make King Felix younger? :D

it's a secret to everyone. ha

Nomar
10-19-2012, 10:27 AM
it's a secret to everyone. ha

Im guessing it has to do with MacDime and meditation.

Melo15
10-19-2012, 10:29 AM
I would rather chop my own dick off, throw it in a blender, mix it up with some bleach, and chug it down. Honestly, that's probably a better idea.

Nomar
10-19-2012, 10:32 AM
Well now im just hungry. Thanks a lot.

Melo15
10-19-2012, 10:33 AM
I can't do anything right :sigh:

Nomar
10-19-2012, 10:47 AM
http://www.jumbobuy.com/shop/images/items/004372.jpg

Sullivan-Sox15!
10-19-2012, 11:40 AM
I may be wrong but I don't think Xander Bogaerts is gonna be anything special. I say trade him and a pitcher or 2 for Tulowitski if everyone thinks Bogaerts is so great. Would that be an acceptable return for you guys than Tulo would be a stud guaranteed who knows what Bogaerts will do.

JMP83
10-19-2012, 12:14 PM
Wow, I came to this thread to have a discussion about a possible deal with Kansas City, thinking our two teams might match up for something. And then I see...that....whatever that is.

Listen, their owner said they were only one or two mid-rotation starters away from competing in the Division. What about Doubront and a prospect for Wil Myers? I don't know if that's even possible, but Doubront is young, left-handed, cost-controlled, and throws hard, and if we don't keep them ourselves I'd hope for a big return for him.

taffi101
10-19-2012, 12:45 PM
I'm thinking a trade with a small market team like Kansas City is the best way to fix the Sox. They have talent at spots and lets face it they won't have the cash to resign them when their contracts run out why not take advantage of a bigger market team looking to rebuild.
I'm thinking a trade that looks like this

Boston Gets:
1B- Billy Butler(solves their 1B problem)
LF- Alex Gordon( solves their OF problem)
P- Joakim Soria (depth to the bullpen, a setup man for Bailey)

Kansas City Gets:
P- Daniel Bard (before he loses all value, and would be cheap for Kansas City and they can use him to be the closer or put him in the rotation)
INF- Garin Cecchini
SS- Xander Bogaerts (as good as they think he will be do you honestly ever see this kid playing SS for the Sox on a regular basis)
OF- Ryan Kalish( would be better for a team like the royals than or the Sox)
P- Alfredo Aceves( cheap and face it he needs to be out of Boston he intentionally tanked towards the end I think because he was upset with his role)
OF- Brandon Jacobs(decent spec., pure speculation and with Brentz and hopefully resigning Ellsbury I no more than 16 a yr where does he fit)(also Jackie Bradley Jr coming up.)
P- Chris Carpenter
P- Zach Stewart (get something out of that horrible Youkilis Trade)
C- Blake Swihart( with Salty playing his best ball now and Lavarnway in the wings where does this kid fit)

Obviously this won't be a 9 for 3 player trade as that would be a big one but I would love to have all 3 of those guys and your gonna have to pay big for Butler with him being young and a power hitter.

So the break down would be:
Bogaerts
Cecchini
Bard
Jacobs

FOR
Billy Butler

Kalish
Swihart
Aceves

FOR
Alex Gordan

And than

Carpenter
Stewart

FOR
Joakim Soria

Question 1 would you do a trade for those 3 from KC
Question 2 who would you trade for them/ did I give up too much or not enough
Question 3 do you think this would fix the Sox

Envision:

Ellsbury CF
Pedroia 2B
Butler 1B
Ortiz DH
Ross RF
Middlebrooks 3B
Gordan LF
Saltalamacchia C
Iglesias SS

Than Sign Peavy to a 3yr deal

1. Lester
2. Peavy
3. Buchholz
4. Lackey
5. Doubront

SU. Soria
CL. Bailey

Looks good to me maybe sign either Broxton or Francisco Rodriguez for more bullpen help

Lets hear what ya think sorry this was so long I have just been pondering on this since The August Trade.


I don't see this as anything realistic from either side. You're looking at this as more of a one-sided trade from the Sox standpoint correct? If I'm KC, I don't do the deal.

Contrary to popular belief, I doubt the Royals are too eager to deal away the 2 faces of their franchise.

They have a really good nucleus of young talent, and a pipeline of younger talent on the way.

There was a time that a few of us older guys, I'm sure Bagwell can attest to, remember when going into KC was a pretty tough trip. They were a great franchise throughout most of the 80's, and I'm sure it's their goal to return there.

Dealing two of their key, if not best players, for a fistful of prospects, a nutcase, and a possible mental blocked pitcher when they have a pretty good farm system, and an owner who on the surface, is seemingly willing to spend, to maybe add some help to try and have them compete as soon as next year, just doesn't add up if I'm KC.

If I'm the Sox, why trade all those guys at the dead-line, gain some salary relief, and then deal away alot of the top tier talent on the way to the big club, as soon as next season possibly?

The Sox directional philosophy seems to want to get back to what helped make them successful....having a stream of young talent coming to the big leagues, paired with the ability to add via trades or FA's.........

Nomar
10-19-2012, 02:00 PM
Listen, if theres any way to get Wil Myers that doesnt include the killer B's im down. I just don't see KC trading him.

-Lavigne43-
10-19-2012, 02:07 PM
Who knows. KC isn't a competent organization. Maybe they would do Buchholz for Myers.

As for Xander, he should be the most untradeable player in the entire organization. Trading him for anything but a top 5ish starting pitcher is asinine

Sullivan-Sox15!
10-19-2012, 03:21 PM
Okay we'll you guys have all considered what ever idea I had completely ridiculous but apparently you were to busy to realize that I asked what you would do. So lets hear the brilliant ideas that you all have to fix the abysmal roster that the Sox currently have. And if it starts with not signing Ortiz that's dumb. He is worth every penny on the field and off.

AI
10-19-2012, 04:11 PM
I would rather chop my own dick off, throw it in a blender, mix it up with some bleach, and chug it down. Honestly, that's probably a better idea.

Is this the new recipe for a Bushwacker?

taffi101
10-19-2012, 04:20 PM
Okay we'll you guys have all considered what ever idea I had completely ridiculous but apparently you were to busy to realize that I asked what you would do. So lets hear the brilliant ideas that you all have to fix the abysmal roster that the Sox currently have. And if it starts with not signing Ortiz that's dumb. He is worth every penny on the field and off.

Well, after reading through your post, I don't see where you asked what we would do, but rather asking more for opinions.

I don't believe your idea to be ridiculous, rather unrealistic, at this juncture for either team.

A common mistake that is made quite often, is that a fan of a certain team, will usually tend to over value the talent on their team, and under mind the talent on another. ( I'm not saying that you made that here, it's just an observation on my part)

As far as signing or not re-signing Ortiz, I believe most look at it through rose colored glasses. From a business standpoint, I guess it could be viewed in a myriad of ways.

1. What kind of blow back will there be if they don't re-sign their beloved Papi?

2. Is he worth the money we are going to pay him?


Personally, I don't really care if they bring him back or not. I've stated before, I've watched plenty of great players come and go for many years, and Ortiz will be no different.

AI
10-19-2012, 04:26 PM
Sullivan, you decimated our farm and rotation for a DH, LF and an injured closer. How do you expect us to react? That trade comes close to yankeekiller territory. Are you guys related?

ruckus16969
10-19-2012, 05:22 PM
Well now im just hungry. Thanks a lot.

Jesus!!!!!!!:clap:


I may be wrong but I don't think Xander Bogaerts is gonna be anything special. I say trade him and a pitcher or 2 for Tulowitski if everyone thinks Bogaerts is so great. Would that be an acceptable return for you guys than Tulo would be a stud guaranteed who knows what Bogaerts will do.

:facepalm: Unreal


Okay we'll you guys have all considered what ever idea I had completely ridiculous but apparently you were to busy to realize that I asked what you would do. So lets hear the brilliant ideas that you all have to fix the abysmal roster that the Sox currently have. And if it starts with not signing Ortiz that's dumb. He is worth every penny on the field and off.

I would trade Sullivan-Sox15! to the mlbtr forum for an asprin :p

Your giving me a head ache

ruckus16969
10-19-2012, 05:23 PM
Sullivan, you decimated our farm and rotation for a DH, LF and an injured closer. How do you expect us to react? That trade comes close to yankeekiller territory. Are you guys related?

A really old injured closer

Sullivan-Sox15!
10-19-2012, 06:48 PM
I hear everything you guys are saying an that's cool you guys have been on here awhile and know how this stuff goes. I read this stuff a lot just decided to join to see some of my own topics involved I guess the question I should have asked is what would you guys do to make this team better without killing the farm system and giving out crazy money while also staying in the realm of possibility

papipapsmanny
10-19-2012, 07:29 PM
letting the kids develop while making calculated decisions when it comes to trades and FAs

For instance trading Clay, Bard, Kalish, and Aviles to the D-Backs for Justin Upton, than signing anibal Sanchez to a 4 year deal or so to replace clay.

ruckus16969
10-19-2012, 07:55 PM
I hear everything you guys are saying an that's cool you guys have been on here awhile and know how this stuff goes. I read this stuff a lot just decided to join to see some of my own topics involved I guess the question I should have asked is what would you guys do to make this team better without killing the farm system and giving out crazy money while also staying in the realm of possibility

Now ur on to something. Go read to "what to do in 2013" thread and you'll see all our ideas

mzg32
10-19-2012, 08:40 PM
Add finding a hitting oach to our to-do list. Magadan signed with the Rangers

Station 13
10-20-2012, 04:22 PM
Pitching Depth:

Webster
Workman
De La Rosa

all three could help by the end of the season. No more Cook, Steward, Moe, Larry and Curly embarrassing the team.

NewSoxDynasty
10-21-2012, 07:40 AM
Just kidding... lol. So happy we have John Farrell as manager, but now that their manager vacancy is filled, here is what I think the team should do.

1.) Give David Ortiz his 2 year deal.

2.) Sign Josh Hamilton

3.) Sign Mike Napoli

4.) Acquire a number 3 pitcher... (Any ideas? I have Lackey at number 5 behind Doubront.)

5.) Not sure about SS right now but they need to fix it.

AI
10-21-2012, 08:08 AM
There's a thread for this already NSD. There's a bunch of ideas be it via trade or FA's posters think we should sign, go take a look.

Celtic AL
10-21-2012, 09:47 AM
Just kidding... lol. So happy we have John Farrell as manager, but now that their manager vacancy is filled, here is what I think the team should do.

1.) Give David Ortiz his 2 year deal.

2.) Sign Josh Hamilton

3.) Sign Mike Napoli

4.) Acquire a number 3 pitcher... (Any ideas? I have Lackey at number 5 behind Doubront.)

5.) Not sure about SS right now but they need to fix it.
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

bagwell368
10-21-2012, 09:54 AM
Just kidding... lol. So happy we have John Farrell as manager, but now that their manager vacancy is filled, here is what I think the team should do.

1.) Give David Ortiz his 2 year deal.

**** No.


2.) Sign Josh Hamilton

**** No.


3.) Sign Mike Napoli

**** No.

ruckus16969
10-21-2012, 01:24 PM
Just kidding... lol. So happy we have John Farrell as manager, but now that their manager vacancy is filled, here is what I think the team should do.

1.) Give David Ortiz his 2 year deal.

2.) Sign Josh Hamilton

3.) Sign Mike Napoli

4.) Acquire a number 3 pitcher... (Any ideas? I have Lackey at number 5 behind Doubront.)

5.) Not sure about SS right now but they need to fix it.


Are you a yankees fan?

Soxfan85
10-21-2012, 02:17 PM
By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff

The Red Sox have their manager. Now the real work starts for general manager Ben Cherington.

Here is the lineup at the moment:

1B: Vacant (James Loney)
2B: Dustin Pedroia
3B: Will Middlebrooks
SS: Vacant (Pedro) (Iggy bench)
C: Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Ryan Lavarnway
LF: Vacant (Nava)
CF: Jacoby Ellsbury
RF: Vacant ( Ross)
DH: Vacant (Ortiz)

No. 1 Starter: Jon Lester
No. 2 Starter: Clay Buchholz
No. 3 Starter: Vacant ( Peavey)
No. 4 Starter: Felix Doubront
No. 5 Starter: John Lackey
Depth starters: Vacant
Closer: Andrew Bailey
Set-up men: Junichi Tazawa, Andrew Miller, Mark Melancon

The Sox hope to retain David Ortiz and Cody Ross. But they have a lot of needs, particularly a solid starting pitcher to make the rotation deeper. Doubront is coming off a huge jump in innings and Lackey is coming off Tommy John surgery. If the Red Sox go into the season counting on them for 30 starts each, it's a tremendous risk.

They need to figure out if Jose Iglesias is ready to play shortstop every day and if players like Ryan Sweeney, James Loney, Daniel Nava are worth keeping around. Can Daniel Bard be salvaged?

Is Pedro Ciriaco really a player? His career statistics suggest last year was an anomaly, but maybe he can he helpful off the bench.

Ellsbury is under control for one more season, then he will enter the promised land of free agency with Scott Boras by his side. Should the Red Sox trade him now before it's too late?

There is literally no team in baseball with as much payroll and roster flexibility as the Red Sox have. They could do almost anything.

The Sox also need a coaching staff. John Farrell could bring some of his Toronto coaches with him. Third base coach Brian Butterfield, a Maine native, would be a good fit. The guess here is the Sox will retain Tim Bogar and Gary Tuck. Alex Ochoa could stick, too.

There are likely changes coming to come degree in the rest of the staff, too. The Sox still do not have a strong grip on medical issues based on some of the indecision and other issues that occurred last season.

Getting Farrell on board starts the process. Cherington and Farrell can now work together on assembling a roster and a staff both can live with.

For Cherington, the decisions made in the coming months will surely determine his viability as the GM. He inherited a mess from Theo Epstein last fall and then had Bobby Valentine forced on him. From this point forward, this is his team and he will rise or fall with it.

bruins>habs
10-21-2012, 02:41 PM
**** No.



**** No.



**** No.

why no to Napoli ??? i can see Hamilton and 2years for Papi but why Naps ?

grandsalami
10-21-2012, 02:50 PM
RT @Rotoworld_BB: Report: Giants to put Lincecum on trade block http://dlvr.it/2M5jFk

Soxfan85
10-21-2012, 03:08 PM
RT @Rotoworld_BB: Report: Giants to put Lincecum on trade block http://dlvr.it/2M5jFk

I always liked Lincecum

bruins>habs
10-21-2012, 03:10 PM
I always liked Lincecum

he'd look fresh in a sox uniform with that crazy pitching style and those flowing locks lmao

Soxfan85
10-21-2012, 03:34 PM
he'd look fresh in a sox uniform with that crazy pitching style and those flowing locks lmao

Who would u give up to get Tim?

win red sox
10-21-2012, 04:17 PM
Just kidding... lol. So happy we have John Farrell as manager, but now that their manager vacancy is filled, here is what I think the team should do.

1.) Give David Ortiz his 2 year deal

2.) Sign Josh Hamilton

3.) Sign Mike Napoli

4.) Acquire a number 3 pitcher... (Any ideas? I have Lackey at number 5 behind Doubront.)

5.) Not sure about SS right now but they need to fix it.


1) would prefer a 1 year contract with a vesting option for year 2

2) if you can get Hamilton on a 4yr deal, its a no-brainer. There are no elite bats on the farm that are close to making an impact and next years free agency market is worse than this years.

3) Napoli appears to be a good fit, he could platoon at c/1b and would allow the sox to move salty. hopefully they can get him on a 3yr deal.

4) I like Mccarthy, the sox would probaly have to overpay on a 2 year contract, but they key is length of the contract.

5) if the sox did sign Hamilton/Napoli/Ortiz I would think it would be ok to have Igesias at SS.

MoVaughnsLunch
10-21-2012, 05:00 PM
No sense splashing money and excess years on Napoli or Hamilton. Neither will make us a ws contender next year. If we spend it should be on pitching

Sullivan-Sox15!
10-21-2012, 05:30 PM
Pretty simple I'm thinking maybe Michael Young. He is out of place in Texas now and I was thinking at SS and if you guys don't think he could Still play short at a productive level than never mind. I just like his style and it would be a plus if we could include Lackey? Especially if the Rangers miss out on Grienke. Plus Lackey is a Texas guy and they maybe could get more out if him than a team who is openly against him and a fan base that's out for his head.

Nomar
10-21-2012, 05:33 PM
You should've posted this in the what to do in 2013 thread. And Young is pretty awful. He's always been overrated compared to his actual production and now he's just bad.

AI
10-21-2012, 05:35 PM
No.

bagwell368
10-21-2012, 05:41 PM
He can't field any INF position, at all. He's a below average player getting paid $16M a year.

No

Nomar
10-21-2012, 05:42 PM
From another thread: SF never commits to Belt, and they need offensive help. Ellsbury in a package for Lincecum and Belt could be a huge move for our organization

win red sox
10-21-2012, 05:46 PM
No sense splashing money and excess years on Napoli or Hamilton. Neither will make us a ws contender next year. If we spend it should be on pitching

1) is 4 yrs excessive?
2) in reference to spending on pitching, there is only 1 spot up open in the rotation, should that be our only area to address?
3) if the sox dont acquire elite talent via free agency, when do you expect them to contend for a ws. are you counting on bogarts to be 1.000 ops shortstop or Barnes and Webster to be true 1's
4)so we should should forget about putting a competiive team on the field for 2013 and pray that our prospects develop and maybe just maybe the sox will put a .500 team on the field in 2014.

Sullivan-Sox15!
10-21-2012, 05:48 PM
Okay. I meant 2013 in the title my bad. And yeah is he that awful my bad it sounds good when i heard it but I also had reservations about his actual Value and ability to play short. On another note what do you guys think about SS next year. Iglesias can't hit and I know you guys are gonna murder me for this but I'm not a fan of Xander Bogaerts either i don't believe they are the solution. And I'm sorry indent post this in the right place I'm working on that man. Any 2013 questions go in the what to do page I got ya. You can move it if you want.

Nomar
10-21-2012, 05:54 PM
Okay. I meant 2013 in the title my bad. And yeah is he that awful my bad it sounds good when i heard it but I also had reservations about his actual Value and ability to play short. On another note what do you guys think about SS next year. Iglesias can't hit and I know you guys are gonna murder me for this but I'm not a fan of Xander Bogaerts either i don't believe they are the solution. And I'm sorry indent post this in the right place I'm working on that man. Any 2013 questions go in the what to do page I got ya. You can move it if you want.

Yeah Young being some great player is a pretty big misconception. Bogaerts i love but hes not a solution for SS anyway. Idk what we do but the two people i see being our SS next year are Andrus or Iglesias, even though im not on the iglesias train at all.

BackyardRounder
10-21-2012, 06:15 PM
Just how much money do we have to spend, anyone know? We currently have $45.6 million committed to five players, we'll spend roughly $30 million through the arbitration process on another 10 players. That leaves us with 10 roster spots to fill and very roughly, $100 million or so in yearly salary to work with and still be under the luxury tax.

taffi101
10-21-2012, 06:29 PM
Yeah Young being some great player is a pretty big misconception. Bogaerts i love but hes not a solution for SS anyway. Idk what we do but the two people i see being our SS next year are Andrus or Iglesias, even though im not on the iglesias train at all.

Unless they end up aquiring some more offense at a couple of more positions, I have a hard time seeing them break camp with Iglesias as the starting SS.

They can handle one weak link in the chain if they address other offensive needs via other positions, but if not, I think the merry-go round of SS keeps on going.....

MoVaughnsLunch
10-21-2012, 07:18 PM
1) is 4 yrs excessive?
2) in reference to spending on pitching, there is only 1 spot up open in the rotation, should that be our only area to address?
3) if the sox dont acquire elite talent via free agency, when do you expect them to contend for a ws. are you counting on bogarts to be 1.000 ops shortstop or Barnes and Webster to be true 1's
4)so we should should forget about putting a competiive team on the field for 2013 and pray that our prospects develop and maybe just maybe the sox will put a .500 team on the field in 2014.

Alright buddy. Lets see.

Yes. Four years is excessive for a player like mike Napoli who has been fairly average save for a few anomaly years. I don't want Hamilton anywhere near Boston...ever. Always hurt and a fading fielder. Lets just remember the drug issues. Forget it.

2. Why do we assume we only have one open spot? Bucholz is trade bait as he should be. Lackey IMO is not dead set for that fifth starter. If he doesn't earn it in spring training we set a bad precedent starting a guy just bc of his contract. I get the "boost his trade value " theory but I want to see him earn that spot.as far as I'm concerned by cementing places to under performing stars is not the root to being competitive.

3. The game is changing. We should focus on growing talent and acquiring talent thru surplus. Free agents shouldn't be relied on. Ben said himself that by getting away from our development model that's how we got into this mess. We are two years away from contending. By making smart trades thru surplus and only signing adequate pieces we will contend. There is no route to a World Series on the open market. Not in the near future.

4. If this year taught us anything it's that we should t buy our success. There is only one nyy. We can compete by being smart and I'm willing to be patient because I've seen the sox bad before. I'm not going to make reactionary fa moves just because I can. That's how this all happened in the first place.

So there. No I expect us to compete by being intelligent. By signing the bill muellers, the Millars, the discarded Ortiz, and trading for the Orlando Cabrera. That's how we win.

Good luck in buying all the prime tale t. You probably think we should trade for arod too.

bruins>habs
10-21-2012, 08:52 PM
From another thread: SF never commits to Belt, and they need offensive help. Ellsbury in a package for Lincecum and Belt could be a huge move for our organization

is belt good

BostonSports96
10-21-2012, 09:06 PM
is belt good

He hit .275 with 7 HRs and 56 RBIs. I don't think he's that great but he's still only 24.

Melo15
10-21-2012, 09:08 PM
Ewwwwwwwwww

BostonSports96
10-21-2012, 09:09 PM
No

win red sox
10-21-2012, 09:35 PM
Alright buddy. Lets see.

Yes. Four years is excessive for a player like mike Napoli who has been fairly average save for a few anomaly years. I don't want Hamilton anywhere near Boston...ever. Always hurt and a fading fielder. Lets just remember the drug issues. Forget it.

2. Why do we assume we only have one open spot? Bucholz is trade bait as he should be. Lackey IMO is not dead set for that fifth starter. If he doesn't earn it in spring training we set a bad precedent starting a guy just bc of his contract. I get the "boost his trade value " theory but I want to see him earn that spot.as far as I'm concerned by cementing places to under performing stars is not the root to being competitive.

3. The game is changing. We should focus on growing talent and acquiring talent thru surplus. Free agents shouldn't be relied on. Ben said himself that by getting away from our development model that's how we got into this mess. We are two years away from contending. By making smart trades thru surplus and only signing adequate pieces we will contend. There is no route to a World Series on the open market. Not in the near future.

4. If this year taught us anything it's that we should t buy our success. There is only one nyy. We can compete by being smart and I'm willing to be patient because I've seen the sox bad before. I'm not going to make reactionary fa moves just because I can. That's how this all happened in the first place.

So there. No I expect us to compete by being intelligent. By signing the bill muellers, the Millars, the discarded Ortiz, and trading for the Orlando Cabrera. That's how we win.

Good luck in buying all the prime tale t. You probably think we should trade for arod too.

1) i guess we can agree to disagree on Napoli as he fills two needs for the sox and 3/36 million contract is not a significant overpay, the adtvantage of big market teams is ability to overpay.

2) trading buccholz would imply at the minimum a 3-4 year rebuild, he is our only front of the rotation starter.

3) how is the game changing? elite free agents will get elite contracts, last year pujols and fielder signed ridiculous contracts. I might of misunderstood ben when he talked about developing talent, how i took that was not trading away talent.

4) Lets don't sign free agents just because of Crawford and Lackey didn't turn out like we hoped. again thats the advantage of a big market team, they can take chances. what's the point of dumping Beckett, Gonzalez, and Crawford if you dont take adtvantage of your new financial flexibility. I'm not saying have 180 million payroll, but it would be a slap into the face fans to put a non competitive 100 million team on the field and say were rebuilding.

You can sign all the millars and muellers you want, but if you don't have manny ramirez in the middle of that lineup you dont even make the playoffs in 04 or 07. Ortiz was a different story, nobody saw him developing into what he is today.

I understand your upset about how the last 2 years have gone, but you do have to realize that Boston's only adtvantage over most teams is its financial resources. I would rather sign free agents and maybe overpay, than to trade away high ceiling prospects, and thats what got the red sox in the situation they are in now not signing free agents.

ps we already have a 3b, so i would not be interested in arod

Nomar
10-21-2012, 11:09 PM
Whatever we do we better not sacrifice a draft pick to sign any free agent. This is why i like Sanchez and Haren out of the FA pitching options.

AI
10-21-2012, 11:14 PM
Whatever we do we better not sacrifice a draft pick to sign any free agent. This is why i like Sanchez and Haren out of the FA pitching options.

Sanchez might get a QO, Haren however won't if he's bought out and is a guy I would love for us to sign.

Nomar
10-21-2012, 11:35 PM
Sanchez might get a QO, Haren however won't if he's bought out and is a guy I would love for us to sign.

Doesnt matter. Since he was traded mid-year, nobody will get compensation.

AI
10-21-2012, 11:39 PM
Doesnt matter. Since he was traded mid-year, nobody will get compensation.

I believe we still lose our pick, could be wrong though.

Nomar
10-21-2012, 11:40 PM
I believe we still lose our pick if the QO if extended and we sign him.

Really? Thats some ********

AI
10-21-2012, 11:42 PM
Really? Thats some ********

I'm not entirely sure man, don't fully understand the new CBA yet.

SirHizz
10-21-2012, 11:58 PM
I believe we still lose our pick, could be wrong though.

How and who would get the pick in that case? The rule says that you can't make QO to mid-year acquisitions, doesn't it?
That's why people were so gunshy to trade for "rentals" at first, because they won't get compensated if a player leaves.

If Sanchez can be had for money and money only, I'd be thinking about it...he seems like a dependable player to me. He'll give you a great idea of what he's capable of, his WAR over the past few years has been pretty consistent.

Well, Buchholz is only 6 months younger than Sanchez and you could argue that Anibal has had a better career so far. Difference is, Buchholz contract is very team friendly, Sanchez' probably won't be. But if we sign Sanchez and trade Buchholz for something significant (Upton - maybe even in a 3 way trade), why not?

AI
10-22-2012, 12:03 AM
How and who would get the pick in that case? The rule says that you can't make QO to mid-year acquisitions, doesn't it?
That's why people were so gunshy to trade for "rentals" at first, because they won't get compensated if a player leaves.

If Sanchez can be had for money and money only, I'd be thinking about it...he seems like a dependable player to me. He'll give you a great idea of what he's capable of, his WAR over the past few years has been pretty consistent.

Well, Buchholz is only 6 months younger than Sanchez and you could argue that Anibal has had a better career so far. Difference is, Buchholz contract is very team friendly, Sanchez' probably won't be. But if we sign Sanchez and trade Buchholz for something significant (Upton - maybe even in a 3 way trade), why not?

If Sanchez really doesn't cost us one of our draft picks, then by all means we should be very interested.

ruckus16969
10-22-2012, 10:57 AM
How and who would get the pick in that case? The rule says that you can't make QO to mid-year acquisitions, doesn't it?
That's why people were so gunshy to trade for "rentals" at first, because they won't get compensated if a player leaves.

If Sanchez can be had for money and money only, I'd be thinking about it...he seems like a dependable player to me. He'll give you a great idea of what he's capable of, his WAR over the past few years has been pretty consistent.

Well, Buchholz is only 6 months younger than Sanchez and you could argue that Anibal has had a better career so far. Difference is, Buchholz contract is very team friendly, Sanchez' probably won't be. But if we sign Sanchez and trade Buchholz for something significant (Upton - maybe even in a 3 way trade), why not?

Why not keep them both unless we go after Timmy L

SirHizz
10-22-2012, 11:42 AM
Why not keep them both unless we go after Timmy L

Well, keeping both (in case we were to sign Sanchez) is of course a possibillity, I just think our rotation is already crowded without strong quality. Lester, Lackey and Douby (if not traded) are locks, Buchholz and Sanchez would complete the rotation and I am not sure a rotation of those 5 guys is good enough.
Best case would be: ace, Lester, Buchholz/Sanchez/Haren, Douby, Lackey

Tough to get an ace (only Lee and Lincecum - if he's still considered an ace - may be available)

Nomar
10-22-2012, 12:00 PM
I like the idea of Lincecum overall. A few thoughts:

- He may eventually need TJ surgery. This is just speculation but its very believable

- He has the upside of the ace/anchor our staff needs.

- He had a down year, but he showed good signs during the second half of the season.

- He has a solid track record in big games, and as a 2 time Cy Young winner, he knows how to deal with the idea of being an ace, unlike Lester.

- The major risk in any trade involving Lincecum would be the talent we give up. If we trade Ellsbury for Lincecum and Tim ends up being terrible next year, then we gave up Ellsbury for nothing. There's minimal risk with his contract because while it is expensive its also very short.

- I would definitely turn a deal with Lincecum into a package deal where we also got Brandon Belt. It would fill our 1B need with a young player with upside, and if Lincecum does flop at least we have Belt when looking back on the deal.

corky831
10-22-2012, 12:05 PM
I do not like the prospects of acquiring Lincecum. He has logged many innings already early in his career. He has a small frame, and will most likely break down soon. He came in the league throwing 97. He throws 88 now. Granted he may be more prone to throw 2 seamers, he has lost significant velocity over the years and he will most likely cost a lot through trade. No thanks.

bagwell368
10-22-2012, 12:34 PM
I haven't liked TL for some time due to his delivery/mechanics. I have never seen anyone use more of their body to throw than him. The problem is, as soon as he starts getting hurt/weaker, he'll either get hurt for real or lose velocity.

Some think Morneau is a risk? TL is a much greater one IMO.

Even if he stays in one piece be ready to add a good .6 ERA to his ERA's in the NL for what he'd get in the AL East.

His FB has gone from 94.2 to 90.4 since 2007. His slider lost a MPH as well, so even if he's got more 2 seamers mixed into his 4 seam FB's - he's gone down.

Crucis
10-22-2012, 04:29 PM
1) i guess we can agree to disagree on Napoli as he fills two needs for the sox and 3/36 million contract is not a significant overpay, the adtvantage of big market teams is ability to overpay.

I don't like Napoli and think that he'd just be a waste of perfectly good money.




4) Lets don't sign free agents just because of Crawford and Lackey didn't turn out like we hoped. again thats the advantage of a big market team, they can take chances. what's the point of dumping Beckett, Gonzalez, and Crawford if you dont take adtvantage of your new financial flexibility. I'm not saying have 180 million payroll, but it would be a slap into the face fans to put a non competitive 100 million team on the field and say were rebuilding.

You can sign all the millars and muellers you want, but if you don't have manny ramirez in the middle of that lineup you dont even make the playoffs in 04 or 07. Ortiz was a different story, nobody saw him developing into what he is today.

I understand your upset about how the last 2 years have gone, but you do have to realize that Boston's only advantage over most teams is its financial resources. I would rather sign free agents and maybe overpay, than to trade away high ceiling prospects, and thats what got the red sox in the situation they are in now not signing free agents.


I agree with you with your comment on Manny. It's looking at the 03-07 years with blinders on to glorify the acquisitions of lesser players like the Millars, Muellers, and an overlooked Ortiz, and ignore the undeniable fact that Manny was a huge contributor to those teams and he was a major superstar free agent signing.

Arguably, the problem with the Sox in recent years is that they've been giving way too much money to players who weren't going to be superstar performers, i.e. middle of the order sluggers or top of the rotation aces. Crawford should never have been given that kind of money because he was never going to be a slugger. Lackey may have been a mis-judgement, as they may have felt that he was going to be better than he's turned out thus far.

If it weren't for his other issues, I'd say that Hamilton wouldn't be the worst signing in the world. He is a legit middle of the order slugger, and for perhaps a 4 yr deal, he could very well earn his money. Of course, then there's the other issues with him to consider... But those issues aside, Hamilton is the type of free agent that is worth a big contract, or at least he's close.

SirHizz
10-22-2012, 09:03 PM
The Rangers are looking for catching help. I really think we are matching up very well with Texas. We could send them Ellsbury and Salty or even think about trading them Lavarnway...but in that case, Andrus wouldn't be nearly enough.

Jacoby and Salty for Andrus and Grimm

bagwell368
10-22-2012, 09:06 PM
The Rangers are looking for catching help. I really think we are matching up very well with Texas. We could send them Ellsbury and Salty or even think about trading them Lavarnway...but in that case, Andrus wouldn't be nearly enough.

Jacoby and Salty for Andrus and Grimm

It's come up before. It's a trade that helps both teams. Hopefully it will be done.

Nomar
10-22-2012, 09:09 PM
It's come up before. It's a trade that helps both teams. Hopefully it will be done.

Do you think theyd want Salty back? I guess he is a poor man's Napoli.

AI
10-22-2012, 09:15 PM
If Salty is indeed traded, hope we explore a trade for John Jaso.

Career vs RHP .270/.368/.421, would be an ideal guy to pair with Lavarnway.

SirHizz
10-22-2012, 09:18 PM
Do you think theyd want Salty back? I guess he is a poor man's Napoli.

That's the one million dollar question, they could turn around and inquire on Lavarnway. But then it would be even tougher to structure a deal.
Don't know, I just see a good match between the two clubs.

bagwell368
10-22-2012, 09:22 PM
Do you think theyd want Salty back? I guess he is a poor man's Napoli.

Salty proved he was a ML player. He's not perfect, but for what he will be paid the next few years, he's be cost effective.

No on Lavarnway unless we nail them for it.

Nomar
10-22-2012, 09:23 PM
That's the one million dollar question, they could turn around and inquire on Lavarnway. But then it would be even tougher to structure a deal.
Don't know, I just see a good match between the two clubs.

I hope theres an alternative to involving either honestly, because i would like for Salty to be in a trade for Ike Davis. But at the end of the day, i would rather have Andrus on our team than Davis anyway.

PapelbonLester
10-23-2012, 02:12 AM
Salty is fine. Do you guys expect getting a catcher that hits .300? Because that doesnt happen. Yeah his BA was low but he had a career high in AB this season and he worn down. I expect

Salty
Ortiz
Pedroia
Iglesias
WMB
Ross

to all return to the lineup. The rest is questionable. Id love to see

Ciriaco/Iglesias ...i like Pedro better ;)
Pedroia
WMB
Ortiz
Hamilton
Ross
Gomez
Salty/Lavarnway
Sweeny

That lineup would be more than enough offense. That means all we need is Hamilton and resign Ortiz/Ross. Then focus on what we really suck at....PITCHING!!!

bagwell368
10-23-2012, 07:01 AM
Salty is fine. Do you guys expect getting a catcher that hits .300? Because that doesnt happen. Yeah his BA was low but he had a career high in AB this season and he worn down. I expect

Salty
Ortiz
Pedroia
Iglesias
WMB
Ross

to all return to the lineup. The rest is questionable. Id love to see

Ciriaco/Iglesias ...i like Pedro better ;)
Pedroia
WMB
Ortiz
Hamilton
Ross
Gomez
Salty/Lavarnway
Sweeny

That lineup would be more than enough offense. That means all we need is Hamilton and resign Ortiz/Ross. Then focus on what we really suck at....PITCHING!!!

Salty? He's doesn't handle pitchers well, doesn't field all that well, and his OBP sucks. His SLG is good. He is what he is. I'd rather trade him for something useful and get a fill in back up catcher FA for just money - preferably a good defensive one.

Hamilton isn't coming, and no way Gomez gets a starting job.

Sweeny is going to be arb'd unless they trade Ells perhaps.