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KB-Pau-DH2012
10-04-2012, 01:41 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8461397/charles-barkley-thinks-lebron-james-better-michael-jordan


NEW YORK -- Charles Barkley thinks LeBron James can be better than Michael Jordan.

Jordan is considered by many the best player in NBA history, but Barkley believes his teammate with the Dream Team can be surpassed by James.

"I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said. "I thought I would never compare somebody to Michael Jordan. But this guy, LeBron James, he does everything well. Michael did everything well. LeBron James is just bigger, stronger, faster. That's the only difference."

Barkley makes his comments on the first episode of NBA TV's "Open Court," to debut Tuesday at 11 p.m. ET. The series features a round-table discussion of NBA TV and TNT commentators. They include Shaquille O'Neal, Reggie Miller, Kenny Smith, Steve Smith, Chris Webber, Steve Kerr and Ernie Johnson.

James won his first NBA title and third MVP award last season, joining Jordan as the only players to win the NBA title, regular-season MVP, NBA Finals MVP and Olympic gold medal in the same year.

Jordan won six championships during his Hall of Fame career.

"Unfortunately for LeBron, now that the monkey is off his back, he is going to be compared to two people: Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan," O'Neal said. "So now the question is how many championships can he get? We all know he is a competitor."



Barkley in 2010 after LeBron joined the Heat.



Charles Barkley on the comparison:

On whether James can ever compare to Michael Jordan:

“He’ll never be Jordan. This clearly takes him out of the conversation. He can win as much as he wants to.
There would have been something honorable about staying in Cleveland and trying to win it as the man. …
LeBron, if he would’ve stayed in Cleveland, and if he could’ve got a championship there, it would have been over the top for his legacy, just one in Cleveland. No matter how many he wins in Miami, it clearly is Dwyane Wade’s team.”


#contradiction

Phenomenonsense
10-04-2012, 01:48 PM
I don't particularly like James, mostly reminiscent of the Cavs-Pistons rivalry, but he could be better. Could be. It will take a lot more use of the post game, and still increasing his shooting %, as well as getting more than 6 titles. (Gotta beat the best to be the best, not just draw/tie them.)

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-04-2012, 01:52 PM
I think he'll finish 7-8, don't think he'll touch Michael, Magic, Kareem obviously.

P Harvy
10-04-2012, 01:52 PM
I have to agree. It seems like people usually think the idea of that is so farfetched but the scary thing to think about is that there is a possibility we haven't even seen the best play out of LeBron James yet.

Ebbs
10-04-2012, 01:53 PM
Yea 100% he could be. People ruling him off from that level of greatness are jumping the gun.

b@llhog24
10-04-2012, 01:53 PM
I don't care if he's the best per say, I just want him to make it an argument. All the other GOAT candidates (Wilt, Russell, KAJ, Shaq) have to fight it out just to be the greatest C of all time so it kinds of takes away or hinders their argument for GOAT as MJ is the only perimeter player in the discussion. Hopefully LeBron can change that.

naps
10-04-2012, 02:12 PM
Probably not the GOAT but he sure as hell has the chance to lock up the #2 spot.

kdspurman
10-04-2012, 02:15 PM
Just let the guy play. He's a totally different kind of talent than MJ was. MJ had that killer instinct, that will to take over a game. Lebron has it sometimes but not always, and has developed more into a Magic Johnson type guy which in itself is a huge compliment.

He's just such a different player than Jordan I don't think he can be greater.

TyrionLannister
10-04-2012, 02:17 PM
He could be, just not yet.

Nothing wrong with this at all.

torocan
10-04-2012, 02:19 PM
Too early to say where Lebron will fall in the pantheon of players.

That said, he's one of the VERY few players that you can legitimately say should be in the conversation in terms of the POTENTIAL to top Jordan.

Still, he's a LONG way from MJ type success or numbers.

Bring this topic up again in 4-5 more seasons...

DR_1
10-04-2012, 02:23 PM
:facepalm:

heyman321
10-04-2012, 02:29 PM
I don't even like Lebron, but it's amazing he's not at his peak yet. Nobody is close to him int he league talent wise. Durant? LOL, not even close. At the least, I expect Lebron to get 3 more championships. If Lebron could improve his shot to a point where he is constantly drilling it from 18 feet out, then he would literally be unstoppable.

YEDN90
10-04-2012, 02:29 PM
Too early to say where Lebron will fall in the pantheon of players.

That said, he's one of the VERY few players that you can legitimately say should be in the conversation in terms of the POTENTIAL to top Jordan.

Still, he's a LONG way from MJ type success or numbers.

Bring this topic up again in 4-5 more seasons...

Agreed.

seikou8
10-04-2012, 02:30 PM
Barkley is a moron

Tymathee
10-04-2012, 02:33 PM
I agree he can be, maybe not a better scorer but better overall, he's too unselfish to score more than he does now but he could put up 30-7-7 ever year if he really wanted to and shoot over 50% from the field with 2 steals and 2 blocks per, he's that crazy athletic.

Chronz
10-04-2012, 02:35 PM
INB4JB copy/paste

Da Knicks
10-04-2012, 02:38 PM
Barkley is a moron and if Lebron can come close to someone it would be Magic not Jordan.

Chronz
10-04-2012, 02:41 PM
Physically Bron is bigger, stronger, faster than MJ, sadly hes not quicker nor as great a leaper. To me, quickness is the most important athletic trait in basketball, I think people underrate just how athletically gifted MJ was.

To pass MJ you have to be clear on what your asking. Accolades, Peak Performance, or simply however you define a greater career (which includes all the above + longevity), in terms of Accolades Bron can possibly match him in individual awards but I really doubt he gets 5 more chips in this era. Peak ability? Ive seen Bron have his MJ moments but I would still give the edge to MJ. In terms of career worth, well Bron stared at 18, went to the Finals at 21 and has the potential to significantly outlast Jordan. It would be pretty hard to say no to a superstar that plays at that high a level for say 16+ years.

Bron has a long way to go obviously, and hes likely to come up short, but ANYONE who refuses to accept the plausibility of Bron exceeding MJ in one of the aspects above is a child at heart.

TheIlladelph16
10-04-2012, 02:41 PM
He absolutely has the potential to be better than Jordan. I personally don't think he will, but when its all said and done I see him ending up in the top 5 barring major injury. I think going by Magic, Kareem, and co. is far more attainable then Jordan.

da ThRONe
10-04-2012, 02:49 PM
Ofcourse he has a chance anybody that doesn't think so needs to just get over it. Whether you think he will or not is the only question.

I strongly disagree that he has to win X more titles to surpass anybody. He just need to continue to grow his game as he has since coming into the league and sticking to his strengths.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 03:08 PM
Without championships he ain't going anywhere, he wins 2 more he's in the top 10 he wins 3 more top 7 4 more top 5 5 more top 3

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 03:10 PM
IMO If Lebron gets and achieves #5 rings he'll in my top 5 all-time list with

Jordan
Kobe
Kareem
Magic
Lebron
In no particular order besides Jordan being #1 obviously
All of them would have 5 championships or more

seikou8
10-04-2012, 03:12 PM
kobe a top 5 player of all time lmao top 10

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 03:16 PM
kobe a top 5 player of all time lmao top 10

He will be when it's all said and done wether he wins or doesn't he's gonna break a lot more records still... If he wins #6 he'll be a top 5 player no questions asked

CousinsEvansDUO
10-04-2012, 03:19 PM
As great as Jordan was offensively, and defensively, he was never an elite play-maker like LeBron for one. For two LeBron can be more efficient offensively because LeBron plays in the post and hes 6'8 and Jordan was best with jump-shots not working down low.
Thirdly Jordan was not a great shot-blocker therefore not a complete player. LeBron can block shots and he can get steals too so that make him more of a all around player.

seikou8
10-04-2012, 03:20 PM
He will be when it's all said and done wether he wins or doesn't he's gonna break a lot more records still... If he wins #6 he'll be a top 5 player no questions asked

we will see

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 03:28 PM
As great as Jordan was offensively, and defensively, he was never an elite play-maker like LeBron for one. For two LeBron can be more efficient offensively because LeBron plays in the post and hes 6'8 and Jordan was best with jump-shots not working down low.
Thirdly Jordan was not a great shot-blocker therefore not a complete player. LeBron can block shots and he can get steals too so that make him more of a all around player.

:facepalm:

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 03:29 PM
we will see

Yeah only time will tell... But this is about Lebron not Kobe so lets move on

TheIlladelph16
10-04-2012, 03:30 PM
He will be when it's all said and done wether he wins or doesn't he's gonna break a lot more records still... If he wins #6 he'll be a top 5 player no questions asked

# of titles does not automatically give you a legit claim to being a top 5 player of all time. If the Lakers wins another title or two at this point, it will be because they have a ridiculously stacked roster, the best C in the NBA, and a top 3 PF. Unless Kobe absolutely goes off like early 2000's Kobe, there will certainly be questions as to whether or not he is top 5.

Edit: Not trying to make this a Kobe thread either, but absolute statements like "no questions asked" just don't typically work when evaluating sports

D.O.N.
10-04-2012, 03:32 PM
I also think so

rocket
10-04-2012, 03:33 PM
He can. I think LeBron will pass MJ for the GOAT conversation 5 years down the road. LeBrons not even in his prime yet.

nickdymez
10-04-2012, 03:33 PM
The problem is that most of you 15 year old kids never got a chance to see a Prime Jordan. You just go off advanced stats. Had you seen Jordan in his prime, you would realize how far fetched this is.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-04-2012, 03:34 PM
# of titles does not automatically give you a legit claim to being a top 5 player of all time. If the Lakers wins another title or two at this point, it will be because they have a ridiculously stacked roster, the best C in the NBA, and a top 3 PF. Unless Kobe absolutely goes off like early 2000's Kobe, there will certainly be questions as to whether or not he is top 5.

Edit: Not trying to make this a Kobe thread either, but absolute statements like "no questions asked" just don't typically work when evaluating sports

If LeBron keeps winning titles, doesn't the stigma stay that he had to join a guy who had already won without him along with another all-star player via free agency just to be in contention and get out of the weak east and compete for a championship. Doesn't the stigma stay with LeBron that he joined a draft class rival when for 7 yrs, the main key head-to-head matchup in the East was LeBron vs Wade, and now it LeBron joining Wade?


Whatever may happen in LeBron's career, remember, he CHOSE to go that route to "win titles". The best player in the league doesn't go to another team to join a guy who has been also in the "conversation" of best player in the league.


If the stigma is there for Kobe winning titles as his career closes, one can make the argument that there was already and forever will be a stigma for LeBron's titles as well.

The only difference is that if Kobe keeps winning titles, this whole thing of winning champions post-Shaq was "under his watch". That's the difference. Dwight might be the better player, but it still is Kobe's team because he is head honcho, the guy leading his troop to war. Everything that happens good or bad in Lakerland is under "Kobe Bryant's watch".

Chronz
10-04-2012, 03:36 PM
The problem is that most of you 15 year old kids never got a chance to see a Prime Jordan. You just go off advanced stats. Had you seen Jordan in his prime, you would realize how far fetched this is.

I doubt it, if they never seen MJ in his prime then they are likely to be young, which means they are less likely to use advanced stats, its more likely they are using basic stats.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-04-2012, 03:37 PM
He can. I think LeBron will pass MJ for the GOAT conversation 5 years down the road. LeBrons not even in his prime yet.

Really? Really?? :pity:

nickdymez
10-04-2012, 03:38 PM
I doubt it, if they never seen MJ in his prime then they are likely to be young, which means they are less likely to use advanced stats, its more likely they are using basic stats.

Anyone using any type of stats to compare Jordan and Lebron arent qualified to answer this question.

BHF
10-04-2012, 03:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm6Kfyxld9s
he also said this :) wait what did he say?

nickdymez
10-04-2012, 03:38 PM
He can. I think LeBron will pass MJ for the GOAT conversation 5 years down the road. LeBrons not even in his prime yet.

What? :speechless::speechless::facepalm:

LongIslandIcedZ
10-04-2012, 03:39 PM
If Lebron wasnt in his prime the last two years, than the I shutter to think about what he's going to be going forward lol. G.O.A.T

Dade County
10-04-2012, 03:41 PM
I think people are over looking D wade.... If he can put together 4 healthy years, he will end up being the 2nd best sg ever and a top 8 player.

And for Lbj, I don't know if he can ever reach Mj level ( but to me, know can, I can only see a players having a series like Mj (D Wade) or maybe even a season ( Lbj last season was Mj like ), but if he comes close, that means more titles for the HEAT :)

b@llhog24
10-04-2012, 03:42 PM
I think people are over looking D wade.... If he can put together 4 healthy years, he will end up being the 2nd best sg ever and a top 8 player.

And for Lbj, I don't know if he can ever reach Mj level ( but to me, know can, I can only see a players having a series like Mj (D Wade) or maybe even a season ( Lbj last season was Mj like ), but if he comes close, that means more titles for the HEAT :)

No.

da ThRONe
10-04-2012, 03:43 PM
Really? Really?? :pity:

I'm sure he meant Bron hasn't reached his full potential yet. Not that he isn't in his prime.

Hoopsadvocate
10-04-2012, 03:43 PM
I think he'll finish 7-8, don't think he'll touch Michael, Magic, Kareem obviously.

Magic already said he think lebron is better than him on tv and if magic is better than (or at least seems to get more credit) than Kareem he just has Michael left of the 3 u mentioned. So u could say u don't think he will touch Tyrone Lue but It won't be right.

b@llhog24
10-04-2012, 03:48 PM
Magic already said he think lebron is better than him on tv and if magic is better than (or at least seems to get more credit) than Kareem he just has Michael left of the 3 u mentioned. So u could say u don't think he will touch Tyrone Lue but It won't be right.

Magic lied.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-04-2012, 03:49 PM
Magic already said he think lebron is better than him on tv and if magic is better than (or at least seems to get more credit) than Kareem he just has Michael left of the 3 u mentioned. So u could say u don't think he will touch Tyrone Lue but It won't be right.

Hoopsadvocate, it's not that easy. LeBron may be the better athlete who can do more on the court than Magic, but the basketball IQ between the two is not even close. LeBron was not what you would regard as a high IQ guy when he first came into the league, but Magic was from the very beginning. LEBron had to understand the game and nuances very slowly and it took him a while to figure everything out. Magic had that instinct from day 1.


Trust me, it's really not that easy to "pass up" guys like Kareem, Magic, Michael etc.



We live in this "what have you done for me lately" world with a bunch of airheads in this society with such short term memory, they forget how good the guys of the past were. Like beyond any level we see right now in the NBA.

It's very disappointing that the fans of this new generation are ******** on the history of this game.

Burkey3472
10-04-2012, 03:56 PM
I mean, in a way he is right because Lebron is more gifted talent wise then Jordan. The reason why I don't think it will happen is because honestly I think Lebron is too nice of a guy. Jordan did whatever it took to win, if it meant fighting with teammates (physically or verbally) or playing mind games with opponents. He wanted to win so badly that he didn't care about how people really felt about him as a person. I'm just not sure Lebron has the same killer instinct to perform like Michael did in those big situations.

TheIlladelph16
10-04-2012, 03:57 PM
If LeBron keeps winning titles, doesn't the stigma stay that he had to join a guy who had already won without him along with another all-star player via free agency just to be in contention and get out of the weak east and compete for a championship. Doesn't the stigma stay with LeBron that he joined a draft class rival when for 7 yrs, the main key head-to-head matchup in the East was LeBron vs Wade, and now it LeBron joining Wade?


Whatever may happen in LeBron's career, remember, he CHOSE to go that route to "win titles". The best player in the league doesn't go to another team to join a guy who has been also in the "conversation" of best player in the league.


If the stigma is there for Kobe winning titles as his career closes, one can make the argument that there was already and forever will be a stigma for LeBron's titles as well.

The only difference is that if Kobe keeps winning titles, this whole thing of winning champions post-Shaq was "under his watch". That's the difference. Dwight might be the better player, but it still is Kobe's team because he is head honcho, the guy leading his troop to war. Everything that happens good or bad in Lakerland is under "Kobe Bryant's watch".


My only point is that titles at this point for Kobe, unless he is the man (meaning biggest reason for them winning, not best leader or head honcho), titles are simply stat padding for his resume. His best years are far behind him. That's not an attempt to diminish his previous accomplishments because he has had a Top 10 career and that's where he absolutely should be. I'm saying these last few years barring an unforseen fountain of youth from Kobe really mean little in defining his ultimate legacy.

Lebron has won his title as the man, and without a doubt will be the best player and contributor on his team going forward. If they continue winning titles, that says a lot to me. Whether or not it was a choice to go to Miami or he had the good Lord on his side to be drafted by the most successful franchise of the last 50 years, again plays little difference in determining a players ultimate legacy imo. I know some people see it differently, but I don't respect or disrespect a player based on leaving or staying on your original team to win a Championship. With a few notable exceptions, teams need more than one star/superstar to win a Championship and if that's not going to happen on a player's current team, I see no reason to fault them for leaving via FA.

Depending on how long he can keep up his current pace of production, there is not a doubt in my mind that Lebron will pass by Kobe and finish closer to the Top 5 and possibly higher. Then again, I weigh the # of titles far less in determining how good a player really was than most people so take it as you will.

JordansBulls
10-04-2012, 04:04 PM
Time for me to stop hating on Lebron. But I think he may be Jordan #2 just not as good as the original but close enough.

As for the topic, I don't use just rings when rating which is why guys like Gretzky and Ruth are my GOAT's in Hockey and Baseball despite not having the most rings. I compare the whole package.

Jordan didn't need 11 rings because he was on a completely different level than Russell statistically (and also Russell won 25 series to get 11 rings, MJ had to win 24 series to just get 6 rings, so the situation was not comparable here.)

MJ didn't need to average 50 ppg like Wilt because he was on a completely different level than Wilt in terms of accolades/titles (at least 100% more of the important accolades/titles - MVP's/FMVP's/titles etc.).

Lebron, however, cannot possibly be on another level from Jordan statistically
(he may end up being as good (right now MJ is #1 all time in PER in the season and playoffs and #1 all time in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs) if he keeps up current/similar production in the regular and postseasons for another 6-8 years; it would be a marginal difference, however, unlike Russell/MJ).
Lebron also cannot amass enough accolades/titles to put himself on another level from MJ (5 MVP's, 10-11 top 3 MVP finishes, 6 FMVP's, 6 titles, defensive recognition etc.), so he would have to differentiate himself some other way - namely, statistically - but as we've seen, he really can't do that either. So yeah, he does have to basically match or exceed Jordan in all of these areas (accolades/titles, production, defensive impact), since it's unlikely that he can do enough in one of those categories to completely shatter what Jordan did in that category so as to make his sum total case for GOAT stronger overall.

Few people really grasp the enormity of what Jordan accomplished.

So to me things if the debate ever got close, MJ going 24-0 in series with HCA and always winning as the man and not having anyone on his teams who won league or finals mvp and also taking a franchise that never won before prior to him arriving and turning it into a dynasty is what I would consider a tie breaker sort to speak.

Remember the HCA, Taking an organization that never won before, etc only matters if the players are close to the same level.
So Isiah Thomas doing it on the Pistons doesn't mean much when comparing him to Magic Johnson or Larry Bird, but in comparison to someone like Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, etc it does.

Bruno
10-04-2012, 04:07 PM
Sure. If he can rack six more titles.

everybody knows that MJ will have the benefit if the doubt because of what he did for the league. to pass MJ, you have to literally pass MJ (while posting comparable numbers).

Go_NUGGETS
10-04-2012, 04:13 PM
For two LeBron can be more efficient offensively because LeBron plays in the post and hes 6'8 and Jordan was best with jump-shots not working down low.


Really?? Like seriously seriously?? What do you base that on? From what I remember, Jordan had an excellent back-to-basket post up game. Only player in the 90s that was doing it as good as MJ, was Hakeem.

ink
10-04-2012, 04:48 PM
Coaches of both athletes, Lebron and MJ, found a way to put the ball in their hands: MJ in the triangle, and Lebron as a point forward. When the Heat fully adapt to him in that role, yes, because of his size, speed, and skill, he could eclipse Jordan. A lot of Lebron's struggles have had to do with coaches not being able to figure out how to use him to his max potential. PJ figured out how to use Jordan very quickly. But physically, Lebron has more to offer than MJ did. I would agree with Barkley on that. Question is whether Lebron has the mind and the drive that MJ had because that is what made him a 6 time champion.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 04:51 PM
# of titles does not automatically give you a legit claim to being a top 5 player of all time. If the Lakers wins another title or two at this point, it will be because they have a ridiculously stacked roster, the best C in the NBA, and a top 3 PF. Unless Kobe absolutely goes off like early 2000's Kobe, there will certainly be questions as to whether or not he is top 5.

Edit: Not trying to make this a Kobe thread either, but absolute statements like "no questions asked" just don't typically work when evaluating sports

So if lebron wins a championship this year it shouldn't count as much because his team is ridiculously stacked as well?? Just look at Kobe's resume if he wins #6 compared to others and u won't find 5 players better

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 04:52 PM
He can. I think LeBron will pass MJ for the GOAT conversation 5 years down the road. LeBrons not even in his prime yet.

:facepalm: no

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 04:53 PM
If LeBron keeps winning titles, doesn't the stigma stay that he had to join a guy who had already won without him along with another all-star player via free agency just to be in contention and get out of the weak east and compete for a championship. Doesn't the stigma stay with LeBron that he joined a draft class rival when for 7 yrs, the main key head-to-head matchup in the East was LeBron vs Wade, and now it LeBron joining Wade?


Whatever may happen in LeBron's career, remember, he CHOSE to go that route to "win titles". The best player in the league doesn't go to another team to join a guy who has been also in the "conversation" of best player in the league.


If the stigma is there for Kobe winning titles as his career closes, one can make the argument that there was already and forever will be a stigma for LeBron's titles as well.

The only difference is that if Kobe keeps winning titles, this whole thing of winning champions post-Shaq was "under his watch". That's the difference. Dwight might be the better player, but it still is Kobe's team because he is head honcho, the guy leading his troop to war. Everything that happens good or bad in Lakerland is under "Kobe Bryant's watch".

This

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 04:54 PM
Really? Really?? :pity:

I agree Lebron is absolutely in his prime he has been for about 2 year he's probably got 2-3 years left of prime play

TheSource
10-04-2012, 04:56 PM
Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

Though it's proven this past season that LeBron COULD be a really great player, and the only thing stopping him is his state of mind. He needs the killer instinct and the competitive nature to continue to win championships, and that's what sets MJ and Kobe apart from him.

He has the most physically gifted player we've arguably ever seen in the league, all he needs is right mentality to be the best.

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 04:56 PM
I think people are over looking D wade.... If he can put together 4 healthy years, he will end up being the 2nd best sg ever and a top 8 player.

And for Lbj, I don't know if he can ever reach Mj level ( but to me, know can, I can only see a players having a series like Mj (D Wade) or maybe even a season ( Lbj last season was Mj like ), but if he comes close, that means more titles for the HEAT :)

Never gonna happen dude it's Jordan Kobe West and maybe even drexler then wade, he's not gonna finish 2nd maybe not even 3rd he probably will though but Jordan and Kobe are untouchable at this point

Raps18-19 Champ
10-04-2012, 05:00 PM
Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

Sure, it might not translate into the same amount of accolades as Jordan, but he can be just as good.

HesterJordan23
10-04-2012, 05:02 PM
the people want a new goat.. every player that comes up in the nba with stardom is compared to jordan.. i personally think the media and the fans of the nba are tired of hearing about jordan. lebron has the physical ability no doubt but what jordan has is what durant rose and kobe have. its called a killer instict. no matter how good they are they can control the game by just being on the floor. lebron is a powerhouse no doubt and has the will to win but his instinct isnt ice cold.. that is why i dont believe he will surpass jordan..if its anyone its durant. lebron is like magic in my eyes.. he will become an all time great remembered by the generations

HesterJordan23
10-04-2012, 05:03 PM
jordan is the goat til proven otherwise

jam
10-04-2012, 05:05 PM
Lebron won't win 10 scoring titles or six titles (twopeat threepeat) as Jordan did. Jordan destroyed his elite competition. Stockton, Malone, Patrick, Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson, Barkley among a host others, either were denied titles outright, or had to wait until Jordan retired. Jordan was untouchable in the clutch.

It's just amazing how short lived people's memories are.

Here's one for ya: Anthony Davis can be better than Bill Russell. :facepalm:

pedrofan45
10-04-2012, 05:05 PM
funny laker fans are trying to make this thread about kobe.... :facepalm:

pedrofan45
10-04-2012, 05:07 PM
Lebron won't win 10 scoring titles or six titles (twopeat threepeat) as Jordan did. Jordan destroyed his elite competition. Stockton, Malone, Patrick, Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson, Barkley among a host others, either were denied titles outright, or had to wait until Jordan retired. Jordan was untouchable in the clutch.

It's just amazing how short lived people's memories are.

Here's one for ya: Anthony Davis can be better than Bill Russell. :facepalm:

Lebron won't win 10 scoring titles because he's not that type of player

Daze9900
10-04-2012, 05:07 PM
Bigger, stronger, faster, yes but he forgot that Lebron up until this point has shown he is inferior when it comes to comparing his mental toughness not only against Jordan but against his peers. That will be his biggest obstacle and I don't know how one can overcome that. You either have it or you don't.

cuttydoesit6
10-04-2012, 05:08 PM
nobody will ever reach mj status, sorry bron.

i do however believe he can be the 2nd goat before its all said n done

Daze9900
10-04-2012, 05:12 PM
Lets revisit this when Lebron can average a triple double for a season then he can pass the big O in my book. He's not passing Jordan, Big O, Wilt, for GOAT. To me he's in a Karl Malone status but with a ring. Rose doesn't blow out his knee we don't know if we're still talking about if Lebron can get ring number 1. GTFO here.

justinnum1
10-04-2012, 05:14 PM
needs a few more rings,

if he can finish his career with 4 rings, 4 finals mvp's, 4 reg season mvp's he will be right up there. no one will be jordan but lebron very might well be number 2. still a long ways to go tho. hopefully the people who hate him can put it aside and just enjoy watching what the guy can do.

pacman16
10-04-2012, 05:16 PM
i say Lebron can be compared as the best ever the time he retires...
Lebron is the ALL AROUND best player to ever play the game.

put MJ 1-1 with lebron and what do you think would happen in a game to 10? think lebrons defense edges a victory!
were talking about a guy who plays EVERY position at times... that's incredible.

Ezio
10-04-2012, 05:21 PM
needs a few more rings,

if he can finish his career with 4 rings, 4 finals mvp's, 4 reg season mvp's he will be right up there. no one will be jordan but lebron very might well be number 2. still a long ways to go tho. hopefully the people who hate him can put it aside and just enjoy watching what the guy can do.

I agree at the #2 spot but the matter of the fact is that if Jordan went to the Finals, you knew the ring was his already.

HesterJordan23
10-04-2012, 05:24 PM
i say Lebron can be compared as the best ever the time he retires...
Lebron is the ALL AROUND best player to ever play the game.

put MJ 1-1 with lebron and what do you think would happen in a game to 10? think lebrons defense edges a victory!
were talking about a guy who plays EVERY position at times... that's incredible.

mjs fade away>>>lbjs defense

all day

Andrew32
10-04-2012, 05:25 PM
There is a huge difference between being a GOAT player for 1 year and doing it for 10-12 years straight like the guys in the legendary five did.

Right now Lebron is in the 15-25 range.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Duncan

I don't see him staying at his current level long enough to break into the legendary five.
Could he maybe surpass Duncan for the 6th spot... yes but it is far from a given.

People are too quick to hype of guys.
Lebron is amazing and one of the best of All-Time but we have had some truly great players before.
They will not be easily surpassed.
Lebron will need to work his ***** off and get lucky in terms of durability if he wants to challenge any of the legendary 5 let alone the GOAT in Jordan.

I give him a .01% chance of surpassing Micheal.

Faneik
10-04-2012, 05:26 PM
I think Barkley is a funny guy.

He's dead wrong on this one.

bluefire7002
10-04-2012, 05:27 PM
I think people are over looking D wade.... If he can put together 4 healthy years, he will end up being the 2nd best sg ever and a top 8 player.

And for Lbj, I don't know if he can ever reach Mj level ( but to me, know can, I can only see a players having a series like Mj (D Wade) or maybe even a season ( Lbj last season was Mj like ), but if he comes close, that means more titles for the HEAT :)

Negative

lakers4sho
10-04-2012, 05:35 PM
I don't even like Lebron, but it's amazing he's not at his peak yet. Nobody is close to him int he league talent wise. Durant? LOL, not even close. At the least, I expect Lebron to get 3 more championships. If Lebron could improve his shot to a point where he is constantly drilling it from 18 feet out, then he would literally be unstoppable.

This is 10th season in the league. He is damn well in his peak.

Andrew32
10-04-2012, 05:36 PM
Jordan = 10-12 Super-Star level playoffs.
Shaq = 10-12 Super-Star level playoffs.
Magic = 10-12 Super-Star level playoffs.
Kobe = 4-6 Super-Star level playoffs.
Lebron = 3-5 Super-Star level playoffs

Lebron also wasn't nearly as consistent a playoff performer as the Top 3 were over his first 7 years and he had far more individual failures.

So please... lets not get ahead of ourselves.
The chances of him surpassing Shaq let alone Jordan are quite slim in reality.
He will probably retire in the 5/6-10 range.

b@llhog24
10-04-2012, 05:38 PM
There is a huge difference between being a GOAT player for 1 year and doing it for 10-12 years straight like the guys in the legendary five did.

What do you mean?


Right now Lebron is in the 15-25 range.

Maybe it was just cause the playoffs were fresh, but I've seem some convincing arguments for LeBron being as high as 11. I have him at about 14 though.


1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Duncan

If he maintains he current trajectory ( +30 PER, First team to DPOY level defense) and then throw in his ever improving post game he'll pass the bottom 3 of your list imo. Although I have Hakeem ahead of all those three guys as well. So 4-5 years from now he'll probably be behind to arguable with MJ/Wilt/Shaq/KAJ and passing Hakeem.


I don't see him staying at his current level long enough to break into the legendary five.
Could he maybe surpass Duncan for the 6th spot... yes but it is far from a given.

People are too quick to hype of guys.
Lebron is amazing and one of the best of All-Time but we have had some truly great players before.
They will not be easily surpassed.
Lebron will need to work his ***** off and get lucky in terms of durability if he wants to challenge any of the legendary 5 let alone the GOAT in Jordan.

I give him a .01% chance of surpassing Micheal.

Except he's on of the most durable superstars ever. Unless you're talking about a freak injury he should hold up pretty well til he's about 32-33.

Andrew32
10-04-2012, 05:41 PM
Except he's on of the most durable superstars ever. Unless you're talking about a freak injury he should hold up pretty well til he's about 32-33.
Maybe you are right and that is why I give him a chance.

However it won't be easy to maintain his current level of play for 5-9 more years which is what I think he'll have to do before we can start comparing him to those Top 5.

b@llhog24
10-04-2012, 05:44 PM
Maybe you are right and that is why I give him a chance.

However it won't be easy to maintain his current level of play for 5-9 more years which is what I think he'll have to do before we can start comparing him to those Top 5.

Players prime tends to end at around 32 which about 5 years for him. I think he maintains close to the same level of production but maybe that's wishful thinking on my part.

LongWayFromHome
10-04-2012, 05:59 PM
He has the skill to. But he won't do it.

Chronz
10-04-2012, 06:03 PM
Anyone using any type of stats to compare Jordan and Lebron arent qualified to answer this question.
I'd rather not go down this road but you do realize your not giving me any reason to the bold right?

Chronz
10-04-2012, 06:07 PM
My only point is that titles at this point for Kobe, unless he is the man (meaning biggest reason for them winning, not best leader or head honcho), titles are simply stat padding for his resume. His best years are far behind him. That's not an attempt to diminish his previous accomplishments because he has had a Top 10 career and that's where he absolutely should be. I'm saying these last few years barring an unforseen fountain of youth from Kobe really mean little in defining his ultimate legacy.

Lebron has won his title as the man, and without a doubt will be the best player and contributor on his team going forward. If they continue winning titles, that says a lot to me. Whether or not it was a choice to go to Miami or he had the good Lord on his side to be drafted by the most successful franchise of the last 50 years, again plays little difference in determining a players ultimate legacy imo. I know some people see it differently, but I don't respect or disrespect a player based on leaving or staying on your original team to win a Championship. With a few notable exceptions, teams need more than one star/superstar to win a Championship and if that's not going to happen on a player's current team, I see no reason to fault them for leaving via FA.

Depending on how long he can keep up his current pace of production, there is not a doubt in my mind that Lebron will pass by Kobe and finish closer to the Top 5 and possibly higher. Then again, I weigh the # of titles far less in determining how good a player really was than most people so take it as you will.
:facepalm:

.....

sorry force of habit around here, what I meant to emoticon was


:clap: :clap::clap:

Thats the most emotion I have ever displayed here, congrats

TheIlladelph16
10-04-2012, 06:08 PM
So if lebron wins a championship this year it shouldn't count as much because his team is ridiculously stacked as well?? Just look at Kobe's resume if he wins #6 compared to others and u won't find 5 players better

See my last comment. Lebron is the leader and best player on that team. Kobe is not anymore. He may still be the leader of that team from a mental standpoint, but he will not be the statistical reason if they win a championship. That's all I meant by it.

Chronz
10-04-2012, 06:13 PM
This is 10th season in the league. He is damn well in his peak.

This is why I dont understand when people say a player CAN pass another. Like we already know this is probably around the best Bron will ever play, some argue he played his best ball his first MVP season, so hes either comparable or hes not at this point. If you mean in terms of career achievements, then yes, but thats so circumstantial its a pretty meaningless prediction by Barkley.

Same reason why Kobe can never surpass MJ in my eyes, we've already seen him at his best and it was enough to draw comparisons and similarities but rather clearly a notch below MJ.

Chronz
10-04-2012, 06:14 PM
The chances of him surpassing Shaq let alone Jordan are quite slim in reality.
He will probably retire in the 5/6-10 range.
So true

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 06:24 PM
Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

Sure, it might not translate into the same amount of accolades as Jordan, but he can be just as good.

The only idiot here is the one calling every one an idiot

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 06:27 PM
i say Lebron can be compared as the best ever the time he retires...
Lebron is the ALL AROUND best player to ever play the game.

put MJ 1-1 with lebron and what do you think would happen in a game to 10? think lebrons defense edges a victory!
were talking about a guy who plays EVERY position at times... that's incredible.

Hahaha lebrons defense? Lebrons defense isn't close to what Jordan's defense was smh 1 on 1 Jordan wins no doubt Jordan was the better scorer hell I can name about 3-4 players that can possibly beat Lebron 1 on 1 now

LoveMeOrHateMe
10-04-2012, 06:30 PM
See my last comment. Lebron is the leader and best player on that team. Kobe is not anymore. He may still be the leader of that team from a mental standpoint, but he will not be the statistical reason if they win a championship. That's all I meant by it.

Ok i see your point, but still how can you say that nothing's a fact for all we know if the lakers make the finals Kobe can go off for 30-7-7 in the finals just like he did in 09 vs the magic

odiz
10-04-2012, 06:30 PM
If LeBron keeps winning titles, doesn't the stigma stay that he had to join a guy who had already won without him along with another all-star player via free agency just to be in contention and get out of the weak east and compete for a championship. Doesn't the stigma stay with LeBron that he joined a draft class rival when for 7 yrs, the main key head-to-head matchup in the East was LeBron vs Wade, and now it LeBron joining Wade?


Whatever may happen in LeBron's career, remember, he CHOSE to go that route to "win titles". The best player in the league doesn't go to another team to join a guy who has been also in the "conversation" of best player in the league.


If the stigma is there for Kobe winning titles as his career closes, one can make the argument that there was already and forever will be a stigma for LeBron's titles as well.

The only difference is that if Kobe keeps winning titles, this whole thing of winning champions post-Shaq was "under his watch". That's the difference. Dwight might be the better player, but it still is Kobe's team because he is head honcho, the guy leading his troop to war. Everything that happens good or bad in Lakerland is under "Kobe Bryant's watch".

Im so sick of this argument. NOBODY WINS ON THEIR OWN. Jordan played with two hall of famers and some great role players. Kobe has played with the most dominant player of his generation not to mention Pau, Bynum, Odom etc..

Who cares if LeBron stayed with the team he was drafted by or left via free agency to be surrounded by talent. No player has ever won on their own in this league. He waited in Cleveland for years and the best player they ever brought in to play with him was Mo Williams. Do you really think Kobe or MJ would have stuck around and signed another long term contract with the Lakers or Bulls if after 7 years the best player they had ever played with was Williams or Big Z? Answer me that.

Bishnoff
10-04-2012, 06:30 PM
I don't particularly like James, mostly reminiscent of the Cavs-Pistons rivalry, but he could be better. Could be. It will take a lot more use of the post game, and still increasing his shooting %, as well as getting more than 6 titles. (Gotta beat the best to be the best, not just draw/tie them.)

Spot on.

odiz
10-04-2012, 06:40 PM
As great as Jordan was offensively, and defensively, he was never an elite play-maker like LeBron for one. For two LeBron can be more efficient offensively because LeBron plays in the post and hes 6'8 and Jordan was best with jump-shots not working down low.
Thirdly Jordan was not a great shot-blocker therefore not a complete player. LeBron can block shots and he can get steals too so that make him more of a all around player.

Jordan averaged over a block a game 4 times in his career, over 1.5 twice. Lebrons career high is 1.1. Not to mention he is 2 inches taller. Jordan was a great shot blocker and an incredible all round defender.

Raph12
10-04-2012, 06:45 PM
6 Finals MVPs/championships, 5 League MVPs, 1 DPOY and 3 AS MVPs... It's definitely doable.

As for the "individual" arguement; he'd need to develop that jumper/post game and get much stronger and hungrier mentally.

whitesoxfan83
10-04-2012, 07:11 PM
Even if he passed him in everything, won 7 rings, and was widely considered by all the best basketball player of all time... there's a few things that will always put Jordan over the top.

1) He never lost in the NBA finals
2) He lost 2 years of his true prime years for no reason... people will argue forever Jordan would have won 8 straight.
3) Jordan came up during an era where the internet, tv, and radio were all starting to collide. He basically globalized the game by himself. LeBron will never beat the Goon Squad the same way Jordan did. Jordan was an icon and not only made basketball what it is but showed EVERYONE how to make a business out of being a superstar- Shoes, cologne, underwear, whatever. Jordan sold better than anyone and came around during a time where he could be sold anywhere and to everyone. Now everyone follows the blueprint he set.
3) LeBron James basically destroyed his home state in favor of a super team. He could have been Cleveland's messiah and done there what Jordan did for the people of Chicago. Jordan restored the city to glory, before Jordan all Chicago was known for was Al Capone and the Daley Family. Cleveland was ripe for a messiah to save their miserable hole in the ground and LeBron took the easy way out in Miami.

He's always going to be a villain in a lot of people's eyes no matter how good he is.

He very well may end up BETTER than Jordan, but he'll never be GREATER then Jordan.

3ballbomber
10-04-2012, 08:08 PM
Barkley's on crack.
Again i reiterate..........It will take more than 1 title to wash the bad taste in peoples mouths Lebron has put there through the years with all his antics & negativity he has displays and portrayed to the world.

nickdymez
10-04-2012, 08:19 PM
I'd rather not go down this road but you do realize your not giving me any reason to the bold right?

Because im talking about watching them play. I'm talking about impact on the game. Kobe is still the most popular athlete in basketball and its not close, at all. When Jordan played, Jordan was the most popular athlete. Not making this a Kobe v. Lebron thing, just going off popularity. When Jordan used to play your team there was a certain mystique about it. Lebron doesn't have that. Jordan made the Bulls living legends, the Heat are jokes. Jordan never left to form a super team. Really the list goes on and on and on. You keep your stats and sports writer awards. And lets not even talk about basketball talent. Also, Jordan struck fear in the eyes of opponents, Lebron doesn't. When Jordan had the ball in the 4th quarter against your team, you were like "Oh ****". When Lebron has it, your looking to see if he's gonna choke or pass at the wrong time.
The media and Nike had stake in Lebron since he was 14, He was never gonna fail. People also like to confuse athleticism with skill for some reason.

JNoel
10-04-2012, 08:21 PM
If he wins his rings, I think he can be considered up there with Jordan and possibly pass him somewhere down the line.

nickdymez
10-04-2012, 08:27 PM
:facepalm:

I already said lebron has a way to go. The fact that you think lebron is soft is not only funny but also shows that you either hate the guy or don't know what your talking about.

Also, you were a heat fan not to long ago llullz

Just because he criticizes bandwagon heat fans, doesn't mean he isn't a Heat fan. I'm on fake Laker fans head all day

ink
10-04-2012, 08:30 PM
Because im talking about watching them play. I'm talking about impact on the game. Kobe is still the most popular athlete in basketball and its not close, at all.

He is? That's news. Maybe you meant he's the most popular athlete in LA but I'm not even sure that's true. He's good, but popular?

I don't think either kobe or lebron are very popular. Both have their detractors. Several players are more popular than either of these two.

bucketss
10-04-2012, 08:38 PM
Barkley's on crack.
Again i reiterate..........It will take more than 1 title to wash the bad taste in peoples mouths Lebron has put there through the years with all his antics & negativity he has displays and portrayed to the world.

who cares what people think about him honestly if people are still mad over something that happened two years ago they need to get a life unless you're a cavs fan but most people are pretending to be offended by the decision and feel "sorry" for cavs fans but the truth is that is just an excuse to justify their insane hate.

Hawkeye15
10-04-2012, 08:48 PM
meh, too early to even fight for LeBron here, sorry. Let's see what happens over the next 3 years and then touch on this again.

Daze9900
10-04-2012, 08:50 PM
Even if he passed him in everything, won 7 rings, and was widely considered by all the best basketball player of all time... there's a few things that will always put Jordan over the top.

1) He never lost in the NBA finals
2) He lost 2 years of his true prime years for no reason... people will argue forever Jordan would have won 8 straight.
3) Jordan came up during an era where the internet, tv, and radio were all starting to collide. He basically globalized the game by himself. LeBron will never beat the Goon Squad the same way Jordan did. Jordan was an icon and not only made basketball what it is but showed EVERYONE how to make a business out of being a superstar- Shoes, cologne, underwear, whatever. Jordan sold better than anyone and came around during a time where he could be sold anywhere and to everyone. Now everyone follows the blueprint he set.
3) LeBron James basically destroyed his home state in favor of a super team. He could have been Cleveland's messiah and done there what Jordan did for the people of Chicago. Jordan restored the city to glory, before Jordan all Chicago was known for was Al Capone and the Daley Family. Cleveland was ripe for a messiah to save their miserable hole in the ground and LeBron took the easy way out in Miami.

He's always going to be a villain in a lot of people's eyes no matter how good he is.

He very well may end up BETTER than Jordan, but he'll never be GREATER then Jordan.

Cot damn, this.

nickdymez
10-04-2012, 08:51 PM
He is? That's news. Maybe you meant he's the most popular athlete in LA but I'm not even sure that's true. He's good, but popular?

I don't think either kobe or lebron are very popular. Both have their detractors. Several players are more popular than either of these two.

It was documented at these past two Olympics that Kobe was the most popular athlete there. He has the number one selling jersey. I promise you that everyone in LA doesn't own a Kobe Jersey nor did we travel to the Olympic games to cheer on Kobe. Sorry bro.

http://www.foxsportswest.com/07/22/12/Kobes-popularity-overshadows-Team-USA/landing.html?blockID=764527


They carry cameras and microphones, sprinting toward Kobe Bryant like Christmas shoppers who just spotted the "it" gift sitting on shelves.

Their questions come quickly, some in English, many in Spanish, and Bryant gives the perfect answer every time. Yes, Spain is an incredible team that can pose problems for the U.S. No, Pau Gasol isn't getting traded from the Lakers as long as he is there.

The only thing Bryant can't seem to explain to reporters is why he's so much more popular than his teammates on the Olympic basketball team.

"I don't know. I don't know where it comes from or how that happens," he said Saturday with a laugh. "It all started with the Dream Team in terms of basketball becoming so global. When I came into the NBA, I kind of inherited kind of the globalization of the game, and then having grown up overseas they really kind of laid claim to me because this is where I learned how to play the game, is overseas."

Chris Paul figures Bryant owes it to the way he's won and carried himself through the years -- along with one other thing.

"A lot of it's got to do, too, that he plays for the Lakers. I learned that, too, I learned that quick," Paul said. "Everywhere you go, shoot, the Lakers, they never play a road game. Only time they might play a road game now is in Oklahoma City."

Bryant is not the best player on the U.S. team, probably just cracking the top three at this stage of his career. Yet for as good as LeBron James, Kevin Durant or any other U.S. player is, none draws the attention of Bryant once the Americans leave home.

"Well, he's been doing it for 16 years in the NBA and in those 16 years the accomplishments are incredible. I mean, they're worthy of a top-five player in the history of the game, really," U.S. coach Mike Krzyzewski said. "And then he's been so visible, been all over the world. In others words, he's traveled all over in the offseason. Even when we're on this tour, he's a guy that gets out, meets people. I think he has just made a commitment to being out there and as a result, you know, people follow him."

The Americans still marvel at the frenzy surrounding Bryant four years ago in Beijing. U.S. assistant Mike D'Antoni once joked that the thunderous "Kobe! Kobe!" chants during the opening ceremonies had even James, Dwyane Wade and Carmelo Anthony going, "What are we, potted plants?"

Bryant had made multiple promotional trips to the Far East by then and kept going out even during the Olympics to see other sports. He was already better known than most players because of all his All-Star appearances and five NBA championships.

"So he has all this equity in the game and has been so successful, that's why he's still bigger than life," USA Basketball chairman Jerry Colangelo said. "That was really true in Beijing when we were there in `08. He was like a Pied-Piper."

Bryant isn't always so engaging during the tough times back in the NBA. His interviews during the postseason when things are going poorly for the Lakers can be a wasted 10 minutes of a reporter's life, knowing the one passionate answer Bryant may give will include profanity and can't be used. But while most of his U.S. teammates can battle the same moodiness during the lengthy summer with the national team, Bryant leaves his in Los Angeles. He's emerged as something of a team spokesman, able to be humorous (poking fun at President Barack Obama and first lady Michelle Obama's "Kiss Cam" struggles) one minute and controversial (insisting this squad could have taken a game from the Dream Team, attacking Commissioner David Stern's proposal to limit Olympic participation to younger players) the next. He's best with the international media, which often gets all the photos it wants of American players but not the answers.

Bryant spent eight years of his childhood in Italy while his father, Joe, played professionally, and he can speak Italian and Spanish.

"I think a lot of it has to do with luck," Bryant said. "Like I said, where I was raised and my ability to communicate with them and kind of understand the culture because I grew up in that culture, in that environment, so it's probably a little bit easier for me to communicate globally than it is for everybody else."

Imagine how big Bryant would be if the international audience saw his usual game. The NBA's fifth-leading career scorer enjoys, as he puts it, not having to do very much with the national team. He has averaged 5.7 points in three exhibition games, tied with a couple of guys getting minor minutes for third-worst on the team. He seems satisfied, knowing his number may be called if there's ever a real need.

"If you would watch him work on defense, fighting through screens, he looks like a rookie trying to make a team and I think he likes that," Krzyzewski said. "It kind of juices him up, makes him have empathy for the guys who eventually will be playing with him on the Laker team and probably he's asking someone else to do that with the Lakers, because you couldn't do that and try to score 30 points a ballgame for 80-something games. There's no way. But here he does everything we ask him to do and more."

Colangelo met with Bryant about a week after his 81-point performance, second-best in NBA history, in January 2006, asking him how he would handle it if the Americans asked him to do something besides score. Bryant responded that it would be no problem, then came through with some big shots down the stretch to help hold off Spain 118-107 in the 2008 gold-medal game.

"His senior leadership is very, very important. The fact that he's willing to kind of acquiesce in some ways is significant," Colangelo said. "But when it's all said and done, I mean when you get down to the last game and the last shot, I think you're going to consider Kobe having the ball. And I think Kobe is the guy, because of his track record, is the guy who will make the shot."

He'd sure be a hit in the interview afterward.


I know you Lebronies love Lebron, but us Kobephiles or whatever arent making this stuff up.

jmaest
10-04-2012, 08:52 PM
Needed to chime in here. There is probably no bigger Jordan fan than me so take this with sincerity: Barkley has a legitimate point.

Lebron has the capacity and physical tools to one day surpass Jordan as the perceived GOAT. He still has to improve his game and all that, but the capacity to do it is there. Lebron is bigger and every bit as athletic.

Now, do I think he will do it? No I don't.

First off, I think Barkley is overstating a couple of Lebron's attributes as compared to Jordan. Is he faster than MJ was? I don't know but I would be inclined to think he isn't. Is he stronger than MJ was? I'm going to say no, and I think some of you would argue with me on that point.

Here's why I say that: Take a look at Jordan's musculature and his conditioning. He was in far better shape than Lebron is and Jordan banged with bigger, physical players all day long while Lebron seems only willing to bang with John Lucas III.

There's also the all-important will power thing that Jordan is constantly praised for. It goes beyond saying that MJ simply refused to lose on the court and accomplished some pretty amazing feats that dazzled the eyes.

I'm going to use a movie analogy to sum up my point: Rocky V. If you've seen it, you might remember the scene where Tommy Gunn is arguing with his promoter about why people still say Rocky is better than he is. The promoter's response: "What do you expect? The man fought wars in the ring."

That's the problem Lebron has when compared to MJ. Same problem every player will have when compared to Jordan. Jordan took on better teams that were bigger, stronger, and more physical he took the game to them. It was like watching a super-hero every night. No player today is up against that or plays like that.

You think Lebron would have been able to deal with the elbows and punches that the Pistons gave Jordan? You think he'd have been able to handle the Knicks' style of on court tackling and thuggery? Or the dirty style of the Jazz? Whether he could or couldn't, we don't know because the rules have been changed to favor the offensive player today so teams like that don't exist. In Jordan's day the rules favored the defense.

So unfortunately for Lebron, there isn't a lot he can do to overcome what is probably an appropriate perception no matter how many titles/awards he wins...

bucketss
10-04-2012, 09:02 PM
It was documented at these past two Olympics that Kobe was the most popular athlete there. He has the number one selling jersey. I promise you that everyone in LA doesn't own a Kobe Jersey nor did we travel to the Olympic games to cheer on Kobe. Sorry bro.

http://www.foxsportswest.com/07/22/12/Kobes-popularity-overshadows-Team-USA/landing.html?blockID=764527




I know you Lebronies love Lebron, but us Kobephiles or whatever arent making this stuff up.

no lie kobephiles are large in number and they love them some kobe. >_>

jmaest
10-04-2012, 09:08 PM
^ In fairness, if you google "Kobe" you do get a whole bunch of "hate Kobe" links and all that.

I think Kobe is still very popular but I also think he's very much hated too. I think it's a mixed bag with him.

As for people loving Lebron...you must be crazy! Lebron is consistently in the most hated athletes list year in, year out. Forbes had him at 6 this year and there's 3 guys on that list who won't be there next year: Burress, Suh, and Humphries. (Lebron was third last year behind Vick and Woods.)

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-04-2012, 09:26 PM
no lie kobephiles are large in number and they love them some kobe. >_>

I like how that was your only response to that whole post.

You guys can't just call someone a "kobephile" and end the matter there and not address the topic or post at hand. It makes you guys very shallow, uneducated and scared of getting into a good debate with anyone.

ink
10-04-2012, 09:27 PM
It was documented at these past two Olympics that Kobe was the most popular athlete there. He has the number one selling jersey. I promise you that everyone in LA doesn't own a Kobe Jersey nor did we travel to the Olympic games to cheer on Kobe. Sorry bro.

http://www.foxsportswest.com/07/22/12/Kobes-popularity-overshadows-Team-USA/landing.html?blockID=764527




I know you Lebronies love Lebron, but us Kobephiles or whatever arent making this stuff up.

This is the Kobe I'm talking about:


Bryant isn't always so engaging during the tough times back in the NBA. His interviews during the postseason when things are going poorly for the Lakers can be a wasted 10 minutes of a reporter's life, knowing the one passionate answer Bryant may give will include profanity and can't be used. But while most of his U.S. teammates can battle the same moodiness during the lengthy summer with the national team, Bryant leaves his in Los Angeles.

The gawking international media in places like Beijing and London may find him ultra-popular, but as the quote I posted above suggest, they don't deal with him all the time. I really don't see the popularity of either Kobe or Lebron. At least in the time of Bird and Magic, both were beloved. In this era, both of the leading NBA players are pretty unpopular. They're only popular among their own fan bases and by occasional fans like those who only tune into basketball during the Olympics. Kobe is famous, notorious, but not necessarily popular. He and Lebron just aren't that likeable.

nickdymez
10-04-2012, 10:06 PM
This is the Kobe I'm talking about:



The gawking international media in places like Beijing and London may find him ultra-popular, but as the quote I posted above suggest, they don't deal with him all the time. I really don't see the popularity of either Kobe or Lebron. At least in the time of Bird and Magic, both were beloved. In this era, both of the leading NBA players are pretty unpopular. They're only popular among their own fan bases and by occasional fans like those who only tune into basketball during the Olympics. Kobe is famous, notorious, but not necessarily popular. He and Lebron just aren't that likeable.

When Kobe wins, he's happy. When he looses, he's pissed. Thats because he's a competitor. Thats why fans of Kobe usually aren't big fans of Lebron. Lebron doesn't come off like he has the same passion as Kobe. Kobe never goes out and parties or does any silly publicity stunts before games. He just plays hard. Thats why the comparison to MJ and Kobe is a little bit more fair. They both have an extreme passion for the game that it seems Lebron lacks.

ink
10-04-2012, 10:12 PM
When Kobe wins, he's happy. When he looses, he's pissed. Thats because he's a competitor. Thats why fans of Kobe usually aren't big fans of Lebron. Lebron doesn't come off like he has the same passion as Kobe. Kobe never goes out and parties or does any silly publicity stunts before games. He just plays hard. Thats why the comparison to MJ and Kobe is a little bit more fair. They both have an extreme passion for the game that it seems Lebron lacks.

This is an endless cycle, comparing Kobe and MJs competitiveness. All I know is that era is when I started watching basketball and MJ had a charisma to his competitiveness that Kobe will never know. Kobe feels like a flawed copy of MJ, an irritable, surly, graceless guy who wants to be something he will never be, and will never be happy because of it. Lebron is unlikeable for other reasons. Maybe the media and social media spotlight has ruined all the fun for these guys but most of them come off as the world's biggest a-holes ever.

Bruno
10-04-2012, 10:19 PM
This is the Kobe I'm talking about:



The gawking international media in places like Beijing and London may find him ultra-popular, but as the quote I posted above suggest, they don't deal with him all the time. I really don't see the popularity of either Kobe or Lebron. At least in the time of Bird and Magic, both were beloved. In this era, both of the leading NBA players are pretty unpopular. They're only popular among their own fan bases and by occasional fans like those who only tune into basketball during the Olympics. Kobe is famous, notorious, but not necessarily popular. He and Lebron just aren't that likeable.

interesting points.

how do you explain all-star voting, and jersey sales atop the NBA?

Gritz
10-04-2012, 10:20 PM
Nope, because too many people act as if Jordan was God in a basketball jersey

jmaest
10-04-2012, 10:26 PM
Nope, because too many people act as if Jordan was God in a basketball jersey

He wasn't? Didn't Larry Bird say he was? If Larry Bird said it, then it's 100% true! :D

ink
10-04-2012, 10:26 PM
interesting points.

how do you explain all-star voting, and jersey sales atop the NBA?

I'm equating popularity with personal likeability. You have to admit that Kobe has been hated more intensely than almost any athlete ever. And I don't mean "hated", you know the internet sport of hating, I mean actually intensely disliked, mainly for the debacle in 2004 and the squandering of a dynasty, coupled with the Colorado affair. I know he's a good player and he's been voted onto AS teams, etc, but his "popularity" if you can call it that is a lot closer to notoriety than anything.

When I think of popular or likeable I think of greats like Russell or Magic. That's why I have a hard time calling either Lebron or kobe likeable or popular.

Back on topic, do you think there's anything at all controversial about what Barkley said about LBJ? Lebron IS bigger and faster than Jordan. He may not rack up the stats and accomplishments but he could actually become better than MJ. He IS that big, skilled, and strong.

Iggz53
10-04-2012, 10:43 PM
LeBron James is just bigger, stronger, faster. That's the only difference

Oh really? That's the only difference between LeBron and Michael Jordan? :laugh2:

To quote LeBron, "[Charles] is stupid. That's all I've got to say about that."

justinnum1
10-04-2012, 10:46 PM
palmer
LeBron has more seasons with at least 27 ppg, 7 rpg & 6 apg than Bird, Jordan, Magic and Kobe combined.
neat little stat i found

Bruno
10-04-2012, 10:56 PM
I'm equating popularity with personal likeability. You have to admit that Kobe has been hated more intensely than almost any athlete ever. And I don't mean "hated", you know the internet sport of hating, I mean actually intensely disliked, mainly for the debacle in 2004 and the squandering of a dynasty, coupled with the Colorado affair. I know he's a good player and he's been voted onto AS teams, etc, but his "popularity" if you can call it that is a lot closer to notoriety than anything.

When I think of popular or likeable I think of greats like Russell or Magic. That's why I have a hard time calling either Lebron or kobe likeable or popular.

Back on topic, do you think there's anything at all controversial about what Barkley said about LBJ? Lebron IS bigger and faster than Jordan. He may not rack up the stats and accomplishments but he could actually become better than MJ. He IS that big, skilled, and strong.

I feel ya.

I've thought to myself on many occasions- kobe seems so 'hated' by at least 50% of the people I talk to. Yet he dominates all-star voting and jersey sales- how? answer is probably that he has about as many fans as he does detractors and that they probably cancel out. but yea- tons of love, and tons of hate for polarizing athletes.

well- to answer your question (without answering your question), I don't think anything Charles Barkley says can be consider controversial in the true sense of the word. He's so exposed, and has been on the record saying so many outrageous things for over twenty years- I've lost sensitivity to his off the wall analysis, and I think a lot of fans feel the same way; he's an entertainer.

LBJ may be bigger, but Chronz brought up an interesting point that MJ was quicker and had better leaping ability. You also can't forget about MJ's 'billion dollar hands' as Phil Jackson refers to them as:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s

LBJ may be a tank, but MJ was extremely gifted physically, and I think a bit of that is getting lost here in this comparison.

As for the question- is LBJ at his physical/mental/competitive peak as good as peak MJ (comparison totally removed from stats, accolades or championships)? It's close, there's no denying that; LeBron is that good. But as they say, close but no cigar. MJ would still dominant LeBron on the cerebral level; he'd toy with his mind and beat him mentally more than anything else (imo, based off what LeBron has given us through his first nine seasons). LeBron has gotten the monkey off his back. He was sick and tired of the criticism and he stood up to the challenge; he brought himself to the table and had a very dominant finals. With that being said, I still don't think that LBJ has that natural competitive fire that MJ had. I think LBJ forced himself to prove the point in 2012, but I don't think that fire burns as deep in his soul as naturally as it did with MJ. For that reason I'd still go MJ. Even if LBJ has a slight physical advantage, MJs got him in everything else (footwork, fundamentals, competitive fire). I'd be okay with someone saying that LBJ is on Michaels level in regards to basketball IQ- LBJ knows the game.

Bruno
10-04-2012, 10:57 PM
palmer
neat little stat i found

neat. but selective. i have tons of quirky stats like that for Kobe too.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-04-2012, 10:59 PM
When Kobe wins, he's happy. When he looses, he's pissed. Thats because he's a competitor. Thats why fans of Kobe usually aren't big fans of Lebron. Lebron doesn't come off like he has the same passion as Kobe. Kobe never goes out and parties or does any silly publicity stunts before games. He just plays hard. Thats why the comparison to MJ and Kobe is a little bit more fair. They both have an extreme passion for the game that it seems Lebron lacks.

Just because you're passionate, doesn't mean it's a better comparison.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-04-2012, 11:00 PM
interesting points.

how do you explain all-star voting, and jersey sales atop the NBA?

Lebron and Kobe have just as much haters as they do fans. You wouldn't see that as much back in the day.

Bruno
10-04-2012, 11:02 PM
Lebron and Kobe have just as much haters as they do fans. You wouldn't see that as much back in the day.

I think that has more to do with over-exposure and 24/7 sports media than anything else.

MetroMan
10-04-2012, 11:06 PM
I'll wait till his career is over to judge

Raps18-19 Champ
10-04-2012, 11:07 PM
I think that has more to do with over-exposure and 24/7 sports media than anything else.

Well yea, that's what I mean.

Players back in the day weren't as hated. Though if they lived in this era, they'd probably be hated a lot more.

Bruno
10-04-2012, 11:08 PM
Well yea, that's what I mean.

Players back in the day weren't as hated. Though if they lived in this era, they'd probably be hated a lot more.

especially the more arrogant vintage players.

TheNumber37
10-04-2012, 11:29 PM
Nah.

jam
10-04-2012, 11:35 PM
He absolutely has the potential to be better than Jordan. I personally don't think he will, but when its all said and done I see him ending up in the top 5 barring major injury. I think going by Magic, Kareem, and co. is far more attainable then Jordan.

Kareem has 38K points, 6 rings, and 6 mvp's. The probability of LeBron catching Kareem in all 3, much less one category, are slim. His chances of matching Kareem in all three categories are close to zero. His chances of surpassing Kareem's achievements are less than zero. Laughable, actually.

Perhaps you're thinking of a different Kareem?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rushka01.html

nickdymez
10-04-2012, 11:40 PM
Just because you're passionate, doesn't mean it's a better comparison.

Athletes understand passion

jam
10-04-2012, 11:41 PM
Sure. If he can rack six more titles.

everybody knows that MJ will have the benefit if the doubt because of what he did for the league. to pass MJ, you have to literally pass MJ (while posting comparable numbers).

Jordan played 3 years of college ball, missed most of his second season, and then skipped 2 more seasons in his prime due to his first retirement. He would've been the best player in the game for at least one more season after his second retirement as well. That's close to 15K points missing from his career during his prime.

LeBron's scoring 26-30 ppg right now in his prime. Jordan averaged over 37 ppg in his prime, and his average "dipped" to 28.5 ppg when he was nearing 35 years of age.

These players are not comparable.

jam
10-04-2012, 11:49 PM
As I said, there's no point in comparing the two. Jordan averaged 31 ppg, 11 apg, 7 rpg, averaged 2.8 steals pg, and 1.4 blks per game in his first finals appearance. He also shot 56% from the field and the bulls won 4-1.

He then went on to average 36 and 41 ppg in his next two finals, and he shot over 50% from the field, as well as over 6 apg.

They really should not be compared at all.

Even a simple minded person recognizes that LeBron is a great playmaker first who chooses to defer whenever possible. He's not an alpha, and even now only reluctantly accepts the role of #1.


Physically Bron is bigger, stronger, faster than MJ, sadly hes not quicker nor as great a leaper. To me, quickness is the most important athletic trait in basketball, I think people underrate just how athletically gifted MJ was.

To pass MJ you have to be clear on what your asking. Accolades, Peak Performance, or simply however you define a greater career (which includes all the above + longevity), in terms of Accolades Bron can possibly match him in individual awards but I really doubt he gets 5 more chips in this era. Peak ability? Ive seen Bron have his MJ moments but I would still give the edge to MJ. In terms of career worth, well Bron stared at 18, went to the Finals at 21 and has the potential to significantly outlast Jordan. It would be pretty hard to say no to a superstar that plays at that high a level for say 16+ years.

Bron has a long way to go obviously, and hes likely to come up short, but ANYONE who refuses to accept the plausibility of Bron exceeding MJ in one of the aspects above is a child at heart.

ink
10-04-2012, 11:49 PM
... competitive peak as good as peak MJ (comparison totally removed from stats, accolades or championships)? It's close, there's no denying that; LeBron is that good. But as they say, close but no cigar. MJ would still dominate LeBron on the cerebral level; he'd toy with his mind and beat him mentally more than anything else (imo, based off what LeBron has given us through his first nine seasons).

Couldn't agree more. What I meant with one of my earlier remarks about the differences between the two.


LeBron has gotten the monkey off his back. He was sick and tired of the criticism and he stood up to the challenge; he brought himself to the table and had a very dominant finals.

I think it also has to do with the fact that PJ implemented the triangle to maximize MJs skill set and effectiveness. No coach has been able to really work with Lebron's skill set. That's why they have to have so much excess talent (Wade and Bosh) just to be able to win with him. There's really no telling whether it will work again either. Heat fans have to admit that Wade and Bosh are pretty unbelievable decoys for Lebron. MJ really didn't have that, Pippen or not.


With that being said, I still don't think that LBJ has that natural competitive fire that MJ had. I think LBJ forced himself to prove the point in 2012, but I don't think that fire burns as deep in his soul as naturally as it did with MJ. For that reason I'd still go MJ. Even if LBJ has a slight physical advantage, MJs got him in everything else (footwork, fundamentals, competitive fire). I'd be okay with someone saying that LBJ is on Michaels level in regards to basketball IQ- LBJ knows the game.

Good points. MJ was definitely smoother with his skill set than Lebron, mind you I think he was one of the most seamless and fluid players I've ever seen. Totally agree about the competitive fire. I called it "drive" above and almost no one has the drive Michael had.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-04-2012, 11:53 PM
Athletes understand passion

Then it's clear you're not an athlete by any means since you don't understand that passion doesn't equate to a better comparison.

When both players retire, Lebron will be ahead of Kobe. If you want to compare someone to Jordan in terms of best of all time, Lebron is the player you look at over Kobe (though neither would be ranked better than Jordan).

jam
10-04-2012, 11:54 PM
Also, some kings fan stated Lebron is better at blocking shots than Jordan which is completely false.

Jordan had career highs of 125 and 131 blocks in consecutive seasons. He had a third season of 83 blocks. LeBron's career high is 91. They possess identical averages of 0.8 bpg, even though LeBron's average is only up to the age of 27.

Just think about; Jordan, a 6'41/2" guard posted a bpg average comparable to quality starting centers (1.5 and 16 bpg).

Jordan will almost certainly have a higher career and there is almost no chance of LeBron blocking over 120 shots in any future season, much less in CONSECUTIVE seasons.

jam
10-04-2012, 11:55 PM
Then it's clear you're not an athlete by any means since you don't understand that passion doesn't equate to a better comparison.

When both players retire, Lebron will be ahead of Kobe. If you want to compare someone to Jordan in terms of best of all time, Lebron is the player you look at over Kobe (though neither would be ranked better than Jordan).

Did either Kobe or LeBron win 10 scoring titles? This should be a tipoff that the comparison is unfair in either case.

MetroMan
10-04-2012, 11:56 PM
People say anything to get the nba back to its old great rating days. It's like wrestling nowadays

Raps18-19 Champ
10-05-2012, 12:00 AM
Did either Kobe or LeBron win 10 scoring titles? This should be a tipoff that the comparison is unfair in either case.

It is unfair, but Lebron should be considered before Kobe does if one tries to compare.

jam
10-05-2012, 12:07 AM
It is unfair, but Lebron should be considered before Kobe does if one tries to compare.

It's too early to compare Kobe and LeBron. Kobe is 34 years of age and starting his 17th season in the nba. LeBron is turning 28 and will be starting his 10th season. No one knows exactly how LeBron's career will turn out. It's very likely that he'll rank among the top 10 players of all time, but beyond that, no one can say with any certainty.

nickdymez
10-05-2012, 12:18 AM
It is unfair, but Lebron should be considered before Kobe does if one tries to compare.

Troll

Raps18-19 Champ
10-05-2012, 12:19 AM
Troll

Is it still trolling if it's the truth?

Raps18-19 Champ
10-05-2012, 12:21 AM
It's too early to compare Kobe and LeBron. Kobe is 34 years of age and starting his 17th season in the nba. LeBron is turning 28 and will be starting his 10th season. No one knows exactly how LeBron's career will turn out. It's very likely that he'll rank among the top 10 players of all time, but beyond that, no one can say with any certainty.

Unless Lebron retires in the next couple of seasons after getting a career-ending injured, he's projected to likely be top 5 all time.

Lebron never had the luxury of being drafted on a good team with another star like half the players in the top 10. And he's certainly had one of the longer waits compared to those who had to wait to get a star on their team. That's why in terms of team accomplishments, he's lacking behind. But he's definitely up there in individual accolades.

nickdymez
10-05-2012, 12:23 AM
Is it still trolling if it's the truth?

Your version of the truth = troll

nickdymez
10-05-2012, 12:25 AM
Unless Lebron retires in the next couple of seasons after getting a career-ending injured, he's projected to likely be top 5 all time.

Lebron never had the luxury of being drafted on a good team with another star like half the players in the top 10. And he's certainly had one of the longer waits compared to those who had to wait to get a star on their team. That's why in terms of team accomplishments, he's lacking behind. But he's definitely up there in individual accolades.

See what I mean. Your obsessed with Lebron.

Magic
Kareem
Jordan
Shaq
Duncan
Wilt

Who is Lebron knocking off. Learn the game of basketball and stop listening to what Espn has to say. Jordan never had the luxury of being drafted to a team with another superstar either, How did that work out for him?

Raps18-19 Champ
10-05-2012, 12:33 AM
See what I mean. Your obsessed with Lebron.

Magic
Kareem
Jordan
Shaq
Duncan
Wilt

Who is Lebron knocking off. Learn the game of basketball and stop listening to what Espn has to say. Jordan never had the luxury of being drafted to a team with another superstar either, How did that work out for him?

Where exactly did I single out saying Jordan had the luxury of being drafted to a team with another superstar? Al I said was Lebron had one of the LONGER waits to get another good player on his team.

How is that an obsession? If I speak the truth, it is what it is. Whether you want to believe it or not, he'll be a top 5 player if he wins at least 2 more titles.

ink
10-05-2012, 12:33 AM
Troll

I really don't think so. Kobe is an imitator striving to be like Mike. He may be the closest anyone ever comes to replicating Mike, and some of that is a credit to Phil Jackson, who coached both of them in the triangle offence. Lebron is something different and original.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-05-2012, 12:34 AM
Your version of the truth = troll

It's not my version. It's actual truth.

nickdymez
10-05-2012, 12:37 AM
Where exactly did I single out saying Jordan had the luxury of being drafted to a team with another superstar? Al I said was Lebron had one of the LONGER waits to get another good player on his team.

How is that an obsession? If I speak the truth, it is what it is. Whether you want to believe it or not, he'll be a top 5 player if he wins at least 2 more titles.

Lebron had good players on his teams in Cleveland. ROLL PLAYERS. They won 60 games a year. stop. And please dont use tittles as a reason Lebron will be on Jordans level because Kobe has 5 and you Lebronies say that doesn't matter.


I really don't think so. Kobe is an imitator striving to be like Mike. He may be the closest anyone ever comes to replicating Mike, and some of that is a credit to Phil Jackson, who coached both of them in the triangle offence. Lebron is something different and original.

Then we should compare Lebron to someone else then


It's not my version. It's actual truth.

Prove it

jam
10-05-2012, 12:49 AM
Unless Lebron retires in the next couple of seasons after getting a career-ending injured, he's projected to likely be top 5 all time.

Lebron never had the luxury of being drafted on a good team with another star like half the players in the top 10. And he's certainly had one of the longer waits compared to those who had to wait to get a star on their team. That's why in terms of team accomplishments, he's lacking behind. But he's definitely up there in individual accolades.

LeBron has had a fantastic career thus far, no one is disputing that. I'm simply saying that comparing LeBron to Jordan is a joke. It's an even bigger joke than comparing Kobe to Jordan, which is a huge joke in and of itself.

This debate was over before it began.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-05-2012, 12:49 AM
Lebron had good players on his teams in Cleveland. ROLL PLAYERS. They won 60 games a year. stop. And please dont use tittles as a reason Lebron will be on Jordans level because Kobe has 5 and you Lebronies say that doesn't matter.

Lololololol. Because Mo Williams equates to guys that Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc played with. You said it yourself. All he had was good role players. Other top 10 greats had a legit top 30 player on their team. Lebron never had that until he came to the Heat, 7 years after he was drafted.

It's true the Cavs won 60 games, but their games were clearly raised due to Lebron's ability to alter the game. Those players aren't really worth as much without Leborn and it clearly shows the way they play now.


Who brought up rings alone? It's a combination of talent and production level, individual accolades and team accolades.

Lebron already surpasses/on par Kobe in 2 of the 3 categories. And when given the time, he could pass Kobe in rings (though I think he'll end with 3 rings). But I will say his team accolades haven't been a failure by any means. He's had great team achievements when his supporting cast didn't have any business with the stature of pressure they were playing with.


Then we should compare Lebron to someone else then

It's not a comparison of who's the most similar to Jordan. It's a comparison of who are best player to compare to Jordan in terms of talent.


Prove it

I would, but I mean how would I be able to prove it to you? We both know you wouldn't change your mind regardless. I'm not the first person to bark up this tree, and when people have tried, you don't seem to understand what they explain. It's impossible to prove facts to someone when they don't understand, block away facts and just plain ignorant. You need to change your views first before someone can explain.

jam
10-05-2012, 12:50 AM
I really don't think so. Kobe is an imitator striving to be like Mike. He may be the closest anyone ever comes to replicating Mike, and some of that is a credit to Phil Jackson, who coached both of them in the triangle offence. Lebron is something different and original.

You're ducking the question. The answer is 'no,' LeBron won't match Jordan's accomplishments.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-05-2012, 12:51 AM
LeBron has had a fantastic career thus far, no one is disputing that. I'm simply saying that comparing LeBron to Jordan is a joke. It's an even bigger joke than comparing Kobe to Jordan, which is a huge joke in and of itself.

This debate was over before it began.

I wouldn't call it a 'joke', but you're definitely not winning if you try to rank Lebron or Kobe above Jordan in the GOAT rankings.

But I will say that on a talent level, you can definitely argue Kobe and Lebron are on par with Jordan or trailing only so slightly.

ink
10-05-2012, 12:54 AM
You're ducking the question. The answer is 'no,' LeBron won't match Jordan's accomplishments.

I'm not ducking anything. I've already answered the question earlier. This was a response to someone saying another poster was a troll.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-05-2012, 02:07 AM
lol @ all these angry people.

so far two solid legends say lebron has the potential.
people playing with Jordan obviously know more than LeBron fangirls/haters.

DUH. we all know the dude has the potential, so thanks chuck.
time will tell of course.

Moving on, should be a very good season!
Good luck to all teams except the knicks, hornets and celtics ;)

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-05-2012, 02:07 AM
Lets go heat!

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-05-2012, 02:10 AM
this is how i see it: I trust legends, ESPN, NBA, basketball analysts opinions over what anyone else says on a website. lol

end of discussion.

SportsAndrew25
10-05-2012, 02:19 AM
I cannot see Lebron being the greatest of all time but I totally see him being a close second.

jam
10-05-2012, 02:48 AM
I cannot see Lebron being the greatest of all time but I totally see him being a close second.

Kareem is consensus #2 GOAT. 38K points, 6 rings and 6 MVP's are pretty solid credentials. LeBron won't come anywhere close to matching, much less surpassing Kareem's accomplishments, even though LeBron had a 4 year head start in his pro career.

Forget about coming close to Jordan. Jordan has 10 scoring titles and was a perfect 6 for 6 in the finals, with 6 finals mvp's. He averaged 31, 36 and 41 ppg in his first 3 finals, and shot over 50% each series. He averaged 11 assists per game in his first finals and shot 56% from the field.

Lebron's a wonderful player, but give him a break, he's nowhere near jordan's level.

Also keep in mind that guys back in Jordan's era weren't just getting slapped on the wrist when they went to the basket--they were getting TACKLED. And not by a single player; I mean by 2 or 3 players at a time.

There is absolutely no comparison in the physicality of the game in jordan's time and the game today. Even when Jordan was playing the sonics in the finals, defenders could ride a PG with a forearm and/or hand check to the ribs from the time the ball was inbounded well past the half court line.

Today's game is a prissy little girl's game by comparison. Do your homework, kid.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-05-2012, 02:54 AM
this is how i see it: I trust legends, ESPN, NBA, basketball analysts opinions over what anyone else says on a website. lol

end of discussion.

Of course you'll agree with what ever favors your guy. :laugh2:

b@llhog24
10-05-2012, 03:03 AM
Kareem is consensus #2 GOAT. 38K points, 6 rings and 6 MVP's are pretty solid credentials. LeBron won't come anywhere close to matching, much less surpassing Kareem's accomplishments, even though LeBron had a 4 year head start in his pro career.

Forget about coming close to Jordan. Jordan has 10 scoring titles and was a perfect 6 for 6 in the finals, with 6 finals mvp's. He averaged 31, 36 and 41 ppg in his first 3 finals, and shot over 50% each series. He averaged 11 assists per game in his first finals and shot 56% from the field.

Lebron's a wonderful player, but give him a break, he's nowhere near jordan's level.

Also keep in mind that guys back in Jordan's era weren't just getting slapped on the wrist when they went to the basket--they were getting TACKLED. And not by a single player; I mean by 2 or 3 players at a time.

There is absolutely no comparison in the physicality of the game in jordan's time and the game today. Even when Jordan was playing the sonics in the finals, defenders could ride a PG with a forearm and/or hand check to the ribs from the time the ball was inbounded well past the half court line.

Today's game is a prissy little girl's game by comparison. Do your homework, kid.

Seeing as he already admitted that LeBron isn't passing Jordan, this was pretty unnecessary.

jam
10-05-2012, 03:09 AM
Just trying to provide a bit of perspective, is all. :cool:

rex.reyesiii
10-05-2012, 06:19 AM
Whew after reading all that, REAL HEAT Fans say or should say:

1. LeBron can only go #2 behind Jordan. The HEAT even retired Jordan's number so we all must believe this. :D No debate here.
2. Kobe is better than Wade at the GOAT level talks (even Wade himself idolizes Kobe(along with Jordan)) but is debatable.

my personal view though:

3. Barkley is just Jealous of Jordan that's why he just can't wait till someone surpass him. :P

LBJ6
10-05-2012, 07:25 AM
Yes there is a big possibility he will be better than Jordan.

bucketss
10-05-2012, 09:00 AM
I like how that was your only response to that whole post.

You guys can't just call someone a "kobephile" and end the matter there and not address the topic or post at hand. It makes you guys very shallow, uneducated and scared of getting into a good debate with anyone.

why would i debate something i agree with?

Evolution23
10-05-2012, 09:02 AM
Depends how he does next year and 2 years down the line.

Heatcheck
10-05-2012, 09:47 AM
Lebron had good players on his teams in Cleveland. ROLL PLAYERS. They won 60 games a year. stop. And please dont use tittles as a reason Lebron will be on Jordans level because Kobe has 5 and you Lebronies say that doesn't matter.



Then we should compare Lebron to someone else then



Prove it

He didnt have good role players on that team, they were terrible, he made them look better. as evidence by them having one of the worst seasons in basketball history the next year.

northsider
10-05-2012, 09:56 AM
this is how i see it: I trust legends, ESPN, NBA, basketball analysts opinions over what anyone else says on a website. lol

end of discussion.

LOL cool story. That's where all the higher intellects get their well collected information.

basketfan4life
10-05-2012, 10:12 AM
This is an endless cycle, comparing Kobe and MJs competitiveness. All I know is that era is when I started watching basketball and MJ had a charisma to his competitiveness that Kobe will never know. Kobe feels like a flawed copy of MJ, an irritable, surly, graceless guy who wants to be something he will never be, and will never be happy because of it. Lebron is unlikeable for other reasons. Maybe the media and social media spotlight has ruined all the fun for these guys but most of them come off as the world's biggest a-holes ever.


This is the Kobe I'm talking about:



The gawking international media in places like Beijing and London may find him ultra-popular, but as the quote I posted above suggest, they don't deal with him all the time. I really don't see the popularity of either Kobe or Lebron. At least in the time of Bird and Magic, both were beloved. In this era, both of the leading NBA players are pretty unpopular. They're only popular among their own fan bases and by occasional fans like those who only tune into basketball during the Olympics. Kobe is famous, notorious, but not necessarily popular. He and Lebron just aren't that likeable.

you have got to be kidding me. You absolutely have no idea what you are talking about. I live in Europe, people here love Kobe...There is a Turkish website about Kobe in Turkey, which has 25.000 members, do you have that much on psd? All sports combined? These guys watch just about every lakers game. Travel from city to city just to watch the guy play all together. I for one, from 2000 to this day watched almost every lakers game, olympic game, summer league, any game Kobe is on.

If you don't believe me, i can send you pictures of us watching games together. Lakers home games are at 5.30 am here, can you understand that. When Kobe visited here last summer "beyoglu" (the most popular street in Turkey, like your Manhattan or something) was full of people that you couldn't even take one step forward or back. I knew a lot of people, people who claim Kobe is not top 20 all time, who say he was never a superstar etc.. But for the first time in my life, i knew a man who says Kobe is not popular.

TheIlladelph16
10-05-2012, 10:30 AM
Ok i see your point, but still how can you say that nothing's a fact for all we know if the lakers make the finals Kobe can go off for 30-7-7 in the finals just like he did in 09 vs the magic

Believe me, I think Kobe can absolutely do that, it wouldn't shock me. It's just not as likely at this point in his career, especially when he now has Dwight (who will and should demand the ball more than Bynum ever did) on top of Pau who needs touches. Plus Nash will be the one controlling the ball and running the offense, so you know he is going to spread it around.

Lebron has a statistical advantage because he is the facilitator of that offense regardless of Chalmers presence on the court... Everything will be going through him. With all the shooters the Heat now have, Lebron could put up some ridiculous assist numbers along with very efficient scoring and rebounding.

Andrew32
10-05-2012, 10:36 AM
this is how i see it: I trust ESPN, ESPN, ESPN, ESPN over what anyone else says on a website. lol

ESPN

end of discussion.

:facepalm: :speechless: :sad2: :bang: :no: :pity: :crazy: :ohno: :badidea:

Never go full ESPN.

bucketss
10-05-2012, 10:44 AM
you have got to be kidding me. You absolutely have no idea what you are talking about. I live in Europe, people here love Kobe...There is a Turkish website about Kobe in Turkey, which has 25.000 members, do you have that much on psd? All sports combined? These guys watch just about every lakers game. Travel from city to city just to watch the guy play all together. I for one, from 2000 to this day watched almost every lakers game, olympic game, summer league, any game Kobe is on.

If you don't believe me, i can send you pictures of us watching games together. Lakers home games are at 5.30 am here, can you understand that. When Kobe visited here last summer "beyoglu" (the most popular street in Turkey, like your Manhattan or something) was full of people that you couldn't even take one step forward or back. I knew a lot of people, people who claim Kobe is not top 20 all time, who say he was never a superstar etc.. But for the first time in my life, i knew a man who says Kobe is not popular.

hedo turkogolu is considered g_d over there true/false?

ink
10-05-2012, 10:49 AM
you have got to be kidding me. You absolutely have no idea what you are talking about. I live in Europe, people here love Kobe...There is a Turkish website about Kobe in Turkey ...

You've informed me about his following in Turkey. None of us knew that before.

NYflightboy
10-05-2012, 10:50 AM
I agree with Barkley. Lebron has better physical attributes than Jordan. Like he said, Lebron is bigger, faster, stronger. Jordan was an overall more skilled player IMO though I think Lebron has better court vision.

Lebron will have the opportunity to surpass MJ. He has the natural given talent to do it. But it reminds to be seen when all is said and done if he'll be viewed as a better basketball player than MJ. It depends on if he can continue to lead his team to chips and especially how he performs in crunch time.

I know MJ has a special place in a lot of our hearts. He's the reason I started watching basketball. But it's not outlandish as some people will make it out to be.

RaiderLakersA's
10-05-2012, 10:52 AM
This isn't the first time that Sir Charles said this. Whether or not the rest of the world believes this hinges on how LeBron performs -- and yes, how many more titles he wins -- going forward.

ink
10-05-2012, 10:53 AM
I agree with Barkley. Lebron has better physical attributes than Jordan. Like he said, Lebron is bigger, faster, stronger. Jordan was an overall more skilled player IMO though I think Lebron has better court vision.

Lebron will have the opportunity to surpass MJ. He has the natural given talent to do it. But it reminds to be seen when all is said and done if he'll be viewed as a better basketball player than MJ. It depends on if he can continue to lead his team to chips and especially how he performs in crunch time.

I know MJ has a special place in a lot of our hearts. He's the reason I started watching basketball. But it's not outlandish as some people will make it out to be.

You're one of the only people on topic in this thread. lol. What you've posted is exactly what Barkley was talking about and it wasn't so controversial.

We just get a lot of posters here who go on AUTO DEFEND for their favourite stars, and bring out the same old PSD cliches they've read in the comparisons forum about # of rings, etc.

Glad to see someone actually read the article that the thread is based on. Barkley's points are straight forward and valid.

JoyRide
10-05-2012, 10:59 AM
Lebron is not faster than Jordan

Mr.ATLHawks
10-05-2012, 11:00 AM
Sure he's got potential. He can be better if he continues to work on his game. We will really know when he gets into his 30's and his athletic body begins to age and we can have this discussion again when he is no longer capable of attacking the basket as much. Will he become average like Tracy McGrady, or will his outside game compensate...??? To be continued I guess..

bucketss
10-05-2012, 11:02 AM
lebron is faster jordan was quicker.

JoyRide
10-05-2012, 11:04 AM
lebron is faster jordan was quicker.

Lebron 40yards dash 4.4sec

Jordan 40yards dash 4.3sec

monty77
10-05-2012, 11:04 AM
Maybe Lebron have better physical conditions than Michael Jordan. In fact, he has (arguably) the most perfect body in history to play this sport but... heīll never reach the level of Jordan in some aspects: competitiveness, character, determination, leadership and sense of fair play.

Yes, it's impossible to win a championship without the help of other great players, but Jordan didn't phone Scottie when he was an all-star player to join him in Chicago. They grew together from the beginning.

Lebron has avoid responsibilities since he and Bosh joined to Wade last summer. Lebronīs shots at the buzzers percentage is ridiculous. Lebron only cares about being cool, but he wants get it playing with the best players around him instead of create he the best team by himself.

Yes, he is probably the best at the present time, but he don't have proved it so far because the most similar thing he has done to match Jordanīs level was to reach the finals of the NBA with Cavs.

Anyone would believe that Jordan is the best player of history if he had won six championships with Olajuwon and Larry Bird in his team so I see Lebron and think: "it's a pity, he could do it alone, like a true champion man".

The fact that he calls his friends to "make it easier" is a total failure of the values of sport. He disappoint me. When he understand it, maybe we can compare him with Michael.

ink
10-05-2012, 11:07 AM
Lebron 40yards dash 4.4sec

Jordan 40yards dash 4.3sec

Got a link to back that up?

JoyRide
10-05-2012, 11:19 AM
Got a link to back that up?

Lebron

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/37846-lebron-james-what-if

Jordan

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/jordan_retires/archive/831128/

bucketss
10-05-2012, 11:26 AM
when did lebron run this timed dash? was it highschool?

JoyRide
10-05-2012, 11:29 AM
when did lebron run this timed dash? was it highschool?

not sure, but based on the article , i think he's already in the NBA, cause it stated his size in the article, i'm sure he's not that big back in high school

ink
10-05-2012, 11:30 AM
when did lebron run this timed dash? was it highschool?

That's what I was wondering because there is a rumour of a 4.4 in HS but I hadn't seen any factual proof.

Andrew32
10-05-2012, 11:41 AM
What about hand size?
Didn't Lebron have tiny hands compared to Jordan?

NYflightboy
10-05-2012, 11:42 AM
Well considering that Lebron is 2 inches taller and I dunno about 30-40 lbs (really taking a stab in the dark here) heavier. A 0.1 difference is amazing.

ink
10-05-2012, 11:44 AM
Lebron

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/37846-lebron-james-what-if

Jordan

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/jordan_retires/archive/831128/

Thanks.

PlezPlayDKnicks
10-05-2012, 12:07 PM
Maybe Lebron have better physical conditions than Michael Jordan. In fact, he has (arguably) the most perfect body in history to play this sport but... heīll never reach the level of Jordan in some aspects: competitiveness, character, determination, leadership and sense of fair play.

Yes, it's impossible to win a championship without the help of other great players, but Jordan didn't phone Scottie when he was an all-star player to join him in Chicago. They grew together from the beginning.

Lebron has avoid responsibilities since he and Bosh joined to Wade last summer. Lebronīs shots at the buzzers percentage is ridiculous. Lebron only cares about being cool, but he wants get it playing with the best players around him instead of create he the best team by himself.

Yes, he is probably the best at the present time, but he don't have proved it so far because the most similar thing he has done to match Jordanīs level was to reach the finals of the NBA with Cavs.

Anyone would believe that Jordan is the best player of history if he had won six championships with Olajuwon and Larry Bird in his team so I see Lebron and think: "it's a pity, he could do it alone, like a true champion man".

The fact that he calls his friends to "make it easier" is a total failure of the values of sport. He disappoint me. When he understand it, maybe we can compare him with Michael.

EXACTLY. Lebron and company wanted to corner the market and crush everyone easily. He wanted the shortcut to his legacy and any1 defending that is sugarcoating it. Him teaming up with Wade or bosh wouldve been pefectly understandable. They wanted overkill and for some its cool. I personally grew up in the rivalry and highly competitve era which i love. This softer kinder friendlier nba is killing me. I just love the game too much to let it go.

dh144498
10-05-2012, 12:15 PM
He can. I think LeBron will pass MJ for the GOAT conversation 5 years down the road. LeBrons not even in his prime yet.

:confused:

koberulesall
10-05-2012, 12:19 PM
no he wont his knees are going to go out and he doesnt have a jump shot, his body is to thick hes going to gain weight fast in his 30's he wont be the kinda player kobe or jordan is or was he doesnt have that jump shot like they do

koberulesall
10-05-2012, 12:21 PM
also he still has to get his 1st ring not a half a ring

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-05-2012, 12:23 PM
also he still has to get his 1st ring not a half a ring

No, a ring is a ring. He worked hard for it and it was well-deserved. It's not Miami's fault that the small market dumbass owners cost us a great first 2 months of the season + training camp and preseason.

dh144498
10-05-2012, 12:26 PM
^ In fairness, if you google "Kobe" you do get a whole bunch of "hate Kobe" links and all that.

I think Kobe is still very popular but I also think he's very much hated too. I think it's a mixed bag with him.

As for people loving Lebron...you must be crazy! Lebron is consistently in the most hated athletes list year in, year out. Forbes had him at 6 this year and there's 3 guys on that list who won't be there next year: Burress, Suh, and Humphries. (Lebron was third last year behind Vick and Woods.)

the more famous you are, the more haters you are gonna get. That's the way of fame, unfortunately.

Chronz
10-05-2012, 12:29 PM
Because im talking about watching them play.
So when discussing something as vague as watching the game, you dont see the need for details?


I'm talking about impact on the game. Kobe is still the most popular athlete in basketball and its not close, at all. When Jordan played, Jordan was the most popular athlete. Not making this a Kobe v. Lebron thing, just going off popularity. When Jordan used to play your team there was a certain mystique about it. Lebron doesn't have that. Jordan made the Bulls living legends, the Heat are jokes. Jordan never left to form a super team. Really the list goes on and on and on. You keep your stats and sports writer awards. And lets not even talk about basketball talent. Also, Jordan struck fear in the eyes of opponents, Lebron doesn't. When Jordan had the ball in the 4th quarter against your team, you were like "Oh ****". When Lebron has it, your looking to see if he's gonna choke or pass at the wrong time.
The media and Nike had stake in Lebron since he was 14, He was never gonna fail. People also like to confuse athleticism with skill for some reason.
So tell me why people who use stats aren't qualified? Dont see what the rest of your post has to do with what you said earlier nor do I really care for those opinions, Im just trying to talk facts and why you feel the need to discount the objective evidence?

Personally, anyone who thinks all objective evidence should be thrown out to the point where anyone who uses them becomes incapable of making the comparison, thats the person who is truly incapable of harping about the impact anyone has on the game.

Chronz
10-05-2012, 12:36 PM
As I said, there's no point in comparing the two. Jordan averaged 31 ppg, 11 apg, 7 rpg, averaged 2.8 steals pg, and 1.4 blks per game in his first finals appearance. He also shot 56% from the field and the bulls won 4-1.
Why is there no point?


He then went on to average 36 and 41 ppg in his next two finals, and he shot over 50% from the field, as well as over 6 apg.

They really should not be compared at all.
Why do you say that? Really whats the point of all these stats, if your trying to show me his statistical superiority you could have chosen alot better stats than these but the point would remain the same, MJ is measurably better than Bron, we know this already, but we also know that no other perimeter player has been able to produce at a comparable level while winning titles+MVP's+Goldmedals etc.....

It makes the comparison relevant.


Even a simple minded person recognizes that LeBron is a great playmaker first who chooses to defer whenever possible. He's not an alpha, and even now only reluctantly accepts the role of #1.
Thats because its a simple minded thought, you dont need to fit someone's criteria as an "Alpha" to be a superior player, have a greater career or accumulate more accolades.

bucketss
10-05-2012, 12:37 PM
also he still has to get his 1st ring not a half a ring

they only played 16 less games than usual

Bravo95
10-05-2012, 12:43 PM
Hmmm...

Chronz
10-05-2012, 12:43 PM
Lebron 40yards dash 4.4sec

Jordan 40yards dash 4.3sec
Thats still speed related, I understand its a dash, but in BASKETBALL, your superior quickness is exhibited in 5-10 yard spurts or something. You know, that first step off the triple threat with the ball in your hands. Thats the quickness MJ has over Bron, even Bron himself admits his first step isnt killer, its his 2nd step he gets you with, once Bron hits his stride hes unstoppable, but in the halfcourt in small yard increments, hes not all that quick. And that was his rookie year right, so imagine 9 years, +40lbs, and several hundred games later. MJ retained his quickness much better than Bron as he aged.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-05-2012, 12:43 PM
they only played 16 less games than usual

I don't think it's the amount of less games played moreso than it is of the compacted schedule with no training camp for new teams assembled or teams with new philosophies that had to be learned on the fly, while teams like the Celtics, Spurs, OKC and Miami mostly kept their coach, core of players and system offensively and defensively intact, and those were the 4 teams that we saw in this yr's conference finals. Not a coincidence as teams like the Lakers (who lost Phil and the triangle), the Mavs (who lost all their difference makers from the 2011 via free agency or trade) or the Clippers (starting their new era with Chris Paul in LA w/o a training camp).


I think the lack of training camp and having to learn things midseason or even late in the season approaching the playoffs had a huge effect.

Chronz
10-05-2012, 12:47 PM
Maybe Lebron have better physical conditions than Michael Jordan. In fact, he has (arguably) the most perfect body in history to play this sport but...
Let me know when teams are calling up Bron to play for them at age 50.


heīll never reach the level of Jordan in some aspects: competitiveness, character, determination, leadership and sense of fair play.
Character?


Yes, it's impossible to win a championship without the help of other great players, but Jordan didn't phone Scottie when he was an all-star player to join him in Chicago. They grew together from the beginning.
Im sure you've heard this but whats the point? That just tells me he didn't have to suffer through incompetent management, unlike Bron, MJ had a team that found him star potential through the draft and made decisions for the best interest of the team in spite of MJ not approving.

bucketss
10-05-2012, 12:52 PM
it still would have been okc - miami finals, those teams you listed(lakers,mavs) weren't considered serious contenders before the season and would have still been sent packing. what ever, you guys can try to discredit as much as you want i can't be bothered to argue this anyways.

Da Knicks
10-05-2012, 01:11 PM
I don't think it's the amount of less games played moreso than it is of the compacted schedule with no training camp for new teams assembled or teams with new philosophies that had to be learned on the fly, while teams like the Celtics, Spurs, OKC and Miami mostly kept their coach, core of players and system offensively and defensively intact, and those were the 4 teams that we saw in this yr's conference finals. Not a coincidence as teams like the Lakers (who lost Phil and the triangle), the Mavs (who lost all their difference makers from the 2011 via free agency or trade) or the Clippers (starting their new era with Chris Paul in LA w/o a training camp).


I think the lack of training camp and having to learn things midseason or even late in the season approaching the playoffs had a huge effect.

Bingo, but people can't accept the fact that the season was a fluke and had a big advantage for the teams that made it far. I dont see okc or miami back in the finals this year. Congrats to them for taking advantage of the last season in which many teams had a disadvantage from the get go...

bucketss
10-05-2012, 01:20 PM
cool story bro, tell me how miami made it the year before if it was a fluke? they actually ran through the east even easier than. also if miami wont be back there who will take their place? let me guess the knicks??

SteBO
10-05-2012, 01:23 PM
That is so one-sided it's laughable. You're acting like OKC and Miami didn't have injuries of their own to deal with during their playoff runs, and winning it last year is actually a bigger feat due to how compacted the season was. This was a true definition of a "marathon". No "fluke" about it.

But discredit all you guys want. Still doesn't dispute the fact that an extra 16 games would've made little difference if not any.

KB-Pau-DH2012
10-05-2012, 01:26 PM
it still would have been okc - miami finals, those teams you listed(lakers,mavs) weren't considered serious contenders before the season and would have still been sent packing. what ever, you guys can try to discredit as much as you want i can't be bothered to argue this anyways.

I'm not discrediting Miami's championship at all.

I was just making the case if people want to ***** about last season, they shouldn't bring up the case of 16 less games, but rather the lack of a training camp. That's all.


Miami deserved this championship, and anyone who is that this was an asterisk title is just dumb. I'm sure if their team won the title last yr, they wouldn't be calling it an asterisk.

b@llhog24
10-05-2012, 01:36 PM
Just trying to provide a bit of perspective, is all. :cool:

We cool man.

jam
10-05-2012, 01:42 PM
LeBron hasn't won "titles." He's won a single title in an abbreviated season, when the rest of the assoc. was out of shape, with no training camp, and caught off guard as to when the season would actually begin; many thought the entire season might be cancelled.

The USA winning gold medals in basketball is about as competitive as micheal phelps beating a fat guy at the local ymca in swimming.

Also, Bird had superior numbers in his prime while playing alongside high volume shooters in McHale and Parish. Bird was the superior midrange shooter, superior three point shooter, superior free throw shooter, superior clutch player, and superior rebounder, averaging over 10 rpg.

LeBron will never be able to match BIRD'S numbers in their respective primes, so even mentioning LeBron in the same breath as Jordan is a complete joke.

And yes, you need to be an alpha to be considered the greatest or one of the all time greatest. That's why Wilt Chamberlain will never be considered the GOAT despite averaging over 50 ppg and over 25 rpg IN THE SAME SEASON.

Anything else?


Why is there no point?


Why do you say that? Really whats the point of all these stats, if your trying to show me his statistical superiority you could have chosen alot better stats than these but the point would remain the same, MJ is measurably better than Bron, we know this already, but we also know that no other perimeter player has been able to produce at a comparable level while winning titles+MVP's+Goldmedals etc.....

It makes the comparison relevant.


Thats because its a simple minded thought, you dont need to fit someone's criteria as an "Alpha" to be a superior player, have a greater career or accumulate more accolades.

ink
10-05-2012, 01:46 PM
Bingo, but people can't accept the fact that the season was a fluke and had a big advantage for the teams that made it far. I dont see okc or miami back in the finals this year. Congrats to them for taking advantage of the last season in which many teams had a disadvantage from the get go...

Among all the ridiculous things that get posted in this forum, discrediting the Heat's championship because of the lockout season is the most absurd I have ever read.

Come on.

ink
10-05-2012, 01:47 PM
LeBron hasn't won "titles." He's won a single title in an abbreviated season, when the rest of the assoc. was out of shape, with no training camp, and caught off guard as to when the season would actually begin; many thought the entire season might be cancelled.

And Lebron and the Heat had an advantage over the rest of the league in exactly what way? :rolleyes:

They went through EXACTLY the same conditions as ever other player or team in the league.

The point holds no water. At all.

smith&wesson
10-05-2012, 01:53 PM
i wouldnt say its impossible for him to surpass jordan but he has a long long way to go yet. + the lakers and thunder are going to make it tough for him to win more rings.

torocan
10-05-2012, 01:57 PM
The point holds no water. At all.

Don't think I'd say NO water at all.

Abbreviated season + Lockout = no training camp, which automatically benefits those teams that did NOT have substantial roster changes.

The fact is, if you have new players entering a coaching system, they need reps to integrate play sets and familiarize players with eachother. Those teams that were pretty much the same as the previous season didn't suffer nearly as much as those teams with substantial numbers of new roster members.

That said, that advantage diminishes as the season progresses as players get more time on the court together (the live games become the training camp).

Similarly, the compressed schedule tends to give advantage during specific parts of the season to those teams with younger rosters as the older teams are forced to rotate their players more in order to maximize recoveries and minimize injuries.

That doesn't mean that Miami and OKC wouldn't have been in the finals together, but I don't think it's completely out of line to say that it MAY have impacted the seeding in the playoffs in terms of what teams faced off against eachother during the playoffs.

COULD it have impacted who got in the Finals or even won it? Of course it could in that a team might have been forced to face a tougher mix of opposition during the road to the conference finals, or even had a different distribution of injuries... however, it's pure speculation and impossible to prove.

In the end, talking about the compressed season and attempting to extrapolate is at best an exercise in intellectual masturbation. Theoretically satisfying, but in the end, meaningless.

Miami are the champs. Lebron has a ring. End of story. And it is only ONE building block in the legacy of a career.

It's what happens from here that counts for Lebron in terms of how he'll be viewed in the pantheon of the Greats.

BcEuAbRsS
10-05-2012, 02:02 PM
I don't think he can pass Jordan, but Lebron is undoubtedly an all-time great.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-05-2012, 02:03 PM
Don't think I'd say NO water at all.

Abbreviated season + Lockout = no training camp, which automatically benefits those teams that did NOT have substantial roster changes.


The team they beat for the title didn't have substantial roster changes. Majority of the teams they beat in the playoffs also had their core players on the team for previous seasons before the lock out. So it cancels out.

Heatcheck
10-05-2012, 02:04 PM
LeBron hasn't won "titles." He's won a single title in an abbreviated season, when the rest of the assoc. was out of shape, with no training camp, and caught off guard as to when the season would actually begin; many thought the entire season might be cancelled.

The USA winning gold medals in basketball is about as competitive as micheal phelps beating a fat guy at the local ymca in swimming.

Also, Bird had superior numbers in his prime while playing alongside high volume shooters in McHale and Parish. Bird was the superior midrange shooter, superior three point shooter, superior free throw shooter, superior clutch player, and superior rebounder, averaging over 10 rpg.

LeBron will never be able to match BIRD'S numbers in their respective primes, so even mentioning LeBron in the same breath as Jordan is a complete joke.

And yes, you need to be an alpha to be considered the greatest or one of the all time greatest. That's why Wilt Chamberlain will never be considered the GOAT despite averaging over 50 ppg and over 25 rpg IN THE SAME SEASON.

Anything else?

Everyone but him, everyone else was out of shape BUT lebron. makes sense.

and wilt did it in the 60s, thats why he's not the greatest, less competition.

ink
10-05-2012, 02:14 PM
Don't think I'd say NO water at all.

Abbreviated season + Lockout = no training camp, which automatically benefits those teams that did NOT have substantial roster changes.

That's reaching.

So we should dismiss any veteran championship team because there were others that couldn't compete because they had too many off-season roster changes?? Seriously.

The lockout was the same for EVERY SINGLE PLAYER AND EVERY SINGLE TEAM.

And btw, I don't think the Heat really ever gelled until last year either because even though they stockpiled two of the best wing players in the world and one of the better PFs, they were still struggling to mesh.


Similarly, the compressed schedule tends to give advantage during specific parts of the season to those teams with younger rosters as the older teams are forced to rotate their players more in order to maximize recoveries and minimize injuries.

All of these perceived advantages exist AT ALL TIMES. They are only amplified in shorter seasons, but certainly not enough to disqualify the championship.


It's what happens from here that counts for Lebron in terms of how he'll be viewed in the pantheon of the Greats.

Partly agree. What he's done ALREADY hasn't been too shabby. And most people would realize that I'm not a Lebron or a Heat fan. I can't stand what Lebron did to the game off the court (i.e. in terms of spoiled a-hole players forcing their way out or ring chasing with BFFs). The culture change may have ruined a great league.

But to deny the legitimacy of a hard fought breakthrough for Lebron last year is just lame.

nickdymez
10-05-2012, 02:29 PM
That's reaching.

So we should dismiss any veteran championship team because there were others that couldn't compete because they had too many off-season roster changes?? Seriously.

The lockout was the same for EVERY SINGLE PLAYER AND EVERY SINGLE TEAM.

And btw, I don't think the Heat really ever gelled until last year either because even though they stockpiled two of the best wing players in the world and one of the better PFs, they were still struggling to mesh.



All of these perceived advantages exist AT ALL TIMES. They are only amplified in shorter seasons, but certainly not enough to disqualify the championship.



Partly agree. What he's done ALREADY hasn't been too shabby. And most people would realize that I'm not a Lebron or a Heat fan. I can't stand what Lebron did to the game off the court (i.e. in terms of spoiled a-hole players forcing their way out or ring chasing with BFFs). The culture change may have ruined a great league.

But to deny the legitimacy of a hard fought breakthrough for Lebron last year is just lame.

Not true. A team like the Lakers, who had a new coaching staff and an entirely new system were at a major disadvantage. Teams like the Spurs, Heat, OKC, Celts, etc had a slight advantage over teams like the Lakers.

*edit

The rest of your post was spot on

ink
10-05-2012, 02:35 PM
Not true. A team like the Lakers, who had a new coaching staff and an entirely new system were at a major disadvantage. Teams like the Spurs, Heat, OKC, Celts, etc had a slight advantage over teams like the Lakers.

*edit

The rest of your post was spot on

Let me ask you: since the Mavs are retooling this year should we discredit whoever else wins the championship this year?

Teams make big off-season changes all the time, lockout or not. It's not the champion's responsibility to give a handicap to those retooling teams. That's just the ebb and flow of the league at all times.

ChicagoJ
10-05-2012, 02:42 PM
People need to remember that MJ wasn't considered the greatest until the middle to end part of his career. People talked about it, but he wasn't crowned until probably the 3rd title or the comeback year.

LeBron would have to keep having years like he had last year and then improve on that each season while winning a bunch more championships to move above MJ. I don't see it happening, but LeBron should be in the conversation as one of the all time greats when he is done.

nickdymez
10-05-2012, 02:44 PM
Let me ask you: since the Mavs are retooling this year should we discredit whoever else wins the championship this year?

Teams make big off-season changes all the time, lockout or not. It's not the champion's responsibility to give a handicap to those retooling teams. That's just the ebb and flow of the league at all times.

Right, but thats the choice of the team, not the league. Even if they are retooling or what not, the coach is there and other players know what to expect. Some teams had a completely different staff and they had to learn a system in two weeks. Teams now get a whole offseason to learn a system. Thats all im saying. To say that teams with continuity didnt have a slight advantage is isnt right.

ink
10-05-2012, 02:54 PM
Right, but thats the choice of the team, not the league. Even if they are retooling or what not, the coach is there and other players know what to expect. Some teams had a completely different staff and they had to learn a system in two weeks. Teams now get a whole offseason to learn a system. Thats all im saying. To say that teams with continuity didnt have a slight advantage is isnt right.

I don't think a training camp was what separated last year's edition of the Lakers from the championship.

Lebron earned his first ring last year. Fair and square. He led the best team to victory, and would have even if the Lakers had had a full training camp. IMO the Lakers were behind the Heat, OKC, and a remarkable Spurs season (a team btw that defied the "lockout" logic some people are trying to use; i.e. they had a very old roster which is not supposed to do well in a lockout year schedule).

nickdymez
10-05-2012, 03:04 PM
I don't think a training camp was what separated last year's edition of the Lakers from the championship.

Lebron earned his first ring last year. Fair and square. He led the best team to victory, and would have even if the Lakers had had a full training camp. IMO the Lakers were behind the Heat, OKC, and a remarkable Spurs season (a team btw that defied the "lockout" logic some people are trying to use; i.e. they had a very old roster which is not supposed to do well in a lockout year schedule).

I was just using the Lakers as an example, I couldnt think of another team that had a coaching staff overhaul last season. I didnt expect the Lakers to win it. And im not taking anything from Lebron. But he didnt do it the season before, lets see if he can do it this season or the next. Because if he cant, thats going to be the stigma. The Heat got better imo, no reason they dont repeat.

ink
10-05-2012, 03:08 PM
I was just using the Lakers as an example, I couldnt think of another team that had a coaching staff overhaul last season. I didnt expect the Lakers to win it. And im not taking anything from Lebron. But he didnt do it the season before, lets see if he can do it this season or the next. Because if he cant, thats going to be the stigma. The Heat got better imo, no reason they dont repeat.

If this Lakers roster lives up to their past accomplishments, let alone their future potential together, the next couple of years will be tough for the Heat, who remain a flawed team IMHO. They won last year fair and square but I can't really see anyone beating a lineup of Nash-Kobe-MWP-Pau-Howard. Again, if they play up to their own proven standard, we're talking about a Big 4 with a once stellar defensive player. Old, but with enough nursing home care, they could win the next two seasons. :p Seriously, the Lakers look good this year. And people better not sleep on the Celtics. Lebron is going to have his work cut out for him to get past teams like this.

TheIlladelph16
10-05-2012, 03:10 PM
Am I missing something here... Weren't all the teams aware that a lockout was almost certainly going to happen? I'm blanking on whether or not free agency happened right after the lockout ended or before, but either way it doesn't matter. Everyone knew the CBA was expiring, and from what I read over and over, a lockout was basically a certainty.

If teams like the Lakers (coaching change wasn't really a choice for them I know) knew about the situation beforehand, or had to make decisions right after it ended, why would they purposely implement a new scheme and a plethora of new players? I understand that some teams HAD to do those things, but there is absolutely no reason last year's championship should be discounted because of it. Everyone was aware of the situation from Day 1 and knew they were going to have to deal with a lockout, so there is no reason to discount a team that played it smart. If they thought it would have been an unfair advantage, simplify your offseason moves and wait until you have a full offseason to implement significant changes.

Case in point: Philadelphia Eagles post lockout last year. Should the Giants win be discounted because other teams like the Eagles had coaching, scheme, and personnel changes? No. To think otherwise is just foolish.

Pluvious
10-05-2012, 03:22 PM
Physically Bron is bigger, stronger, faster than MJ, sadly hes not quicker nor as great a leaper. To me, quickness is the most important athletic trait in basketball, I think people underrate just how athletically gifted MJ was.

To pass MJ you have to be clear on what your asking. Accolades, Peak Performance, or simply however you define a greater career (which includes all the above + longevity), in terms of Accolades Bron can possibly match him in individual awards but I really doubt he gets 5 more chips in this era. Peak ability? Ive seen Bron have his MJ moments but I would still give the edge to MJ. In terms of career worth, well Bron stared at 18, went to the Finals at 21 and has the potential to significantly outlast Jordan. It would be pretty hard to say no to a superstar that plays at that high a level for say 16+ years.

Bron has a long way to go obviously, and hes likely to come up short, but ANYONE who refuses to accept the plausibility of Bron exceeding MJ in one of the aspects above is a child at heart.

The quickness thing is huge. Jordan was just a much better scorer because of that and his fundamentals on offense. Much better. He also had the killer instinct and drive that far surpasses James.

However, Lebron has the strength and size advantage. He is a bit more versatile on offense. I don't think this makes up for Jordan's advantages at this stage. Not even close. Lebron should be compared to much lesser players at this point.

In years past Lebron could be slowed down and almost stopped. That type of thing never happened with Jordan. But last year Lebron showed signs of taking his game to the next level. He has to maintain and improve upon this for a very long time. If he can do this then you can start comparing the two realistically.

At this point it makes much more sense to compare Lebron to Magic...of which he does not compare favorably at all either (yet).

JordansBulls
10-05-2012, 03:28 PM
I don't think a training camp was what separated last year's edition of the Lakers from the championship.

Lebron earned his first ring last year. Fair and square. He led the best team to victory, and would have even if the Lakers had had a full training camp. IMO the Lakers were behind the Heat, OKC, and a remarkable Spurs season (a team btw that defied the "lockout" logic some people are trying to use; i.e. they had a very old roster which is not supposed to do well in a lockout year schedule).

Doesn't help when two of the top 5 players in the league are out for the playoffs just in your own conference including one who was on the team with the best record in the league.

justinnum1
10-05-2012, 03:31 PM
Doesn't help when two of the top 5 players in the league are out for the playoffs just in your own conference including one who was on the team with the best record in the league.

We dont need to go over this again. I personally had boston beating chicago if they met in the semis. But the way lebron was playing, nothing was stopping miami from reaching the finals last year.

Chronz
10-05-2012, 03:32 PM
LeBron hasn't won "titles." He's won a single title in an abbreviated season
LOL when you have to nitpick about pluralities you know you have no argument. Yes he won his FIRST TITLE in a fashion we have only seen from one other perimeter player, thats why hes being compared and its why Larry Bird wondered if it was the most dominant individual season ever.



when the rest of the assoc. was out of shape, with no training camp, and caught off guard as to when the season would actually begin;
So in what was easily the most grueling season in recent history, Bron got stronger and thats suppose to discredit him? And its not like it started all that late so the athletes weren't exactly in the shape they were in say 99. Even then I would never discredit Duncan's chip that year, those Spurs are massively underrated because of that lockout.


many thought the entire season might be cancelled.
O rly, and just how many thought that? I could also claim that many hoped it would be back and geared their lives around that possibility by refusing to play over seas before anything became official. Either way, its not Bron's fault he took his trade seriously and others didn't. Thats what separates champs from chumps.


The USA winning gold medals in basketball is about as competitive as micheal phelps beating a fat guy at the local ymca in swimming.
Maybe in 1992


Also, Bird had superior numbers in his prime while playing alongside high volume shooters in McHale and Parish. Bird was the superior midrange shooter, superior three point shooter, superior free throw shooter, superior clutch player, and superior rebounder, averaging over 10 rpg.

LeBron will never be able to match BIRD'S numbers in their respective primes, so even mentioning LeBron in the same breath as Jordan is a complete joke.
Sounds to me like you dont know much about basketball statistics.


And yes, you need to be an alpha to be considered the greatest or one of the all time greatest. That's why Wilt Chamberlain will never be considered the GOAT
Nope, hes not considered the greatest (by most) because he doesn't have the best resume.




despite averaging over 50 ppg and over 25 rpg IN THE SAME SEASON.

Anything else?
Yes, plz learn to contextualize numbers, I know 50-25 sounds insane but when you account for league marks, its really not any different than Shaq's best seasons.

JordansBulls
10-05-2012, 03:33 PM
We dont need to go over this again. I personally had boston beating chicago if they met in the semis. But the way lebron was playing, nothing was stopping miami from reaching the finals last year.

They were freaking down 3-2 to Boston while having HCA. The same Boston team it took 7 games to beat the Sixers.

ink
10-05-2012, 03:34 PM
Doesn't help when two of the top 5 players in the league are out for the playoffs just in your own conference including one who was on the team with the best record in the league.

But those things happen every year right? There are often situations where other contenders are hampered by injuries or other circumstances. It's part of sport. Remember Nash's broken nose in the closing minutes of a key game against the Spurs a few years ago? He wasn't allowed to play and the Spurs won the game and series. Them's the breaks.

JordansBulls
10-05-2012, 03:35 PM
But those things happen every year right? There are often situations where other contenders are hampered by injuries or other circumstances. It's part of sport. Remember Nash's broken nose in the closing minutes of a key game against the Spurs a few years ago? He wasn't allowed to play and the Spurs won the game and series. Them's the breaks.

Not in one year other than last season has 2 top 5 players in the league been out for the entire playoffs especially not in one conference.

Vampirate
10-05-2012, 03:36 PM
There are so many greats Lebron has to pass before he can be compared to Jordon. Do people see him Passing Kareem, Magic Johnson, Hakeem etc?

SteBO
10-05-2012, 03:37 PM
Not in one year other than last season has 2 top 5 players in the league been out for the entire playoffs especially not in one conference.
Injuries are a reality of sports, but you are currently using them as an excuse to discredit a team you aren't fond of. You're also leaving out the fact that the teams that went to the Finals had injuries of their own to deal with, especially Miami.

C'mon man.

ink
10-05-2012, 03:44 PM
Not in one year other than last season has 2 top 5 players in the league been out for the entire playoffs especially not in one conference.

That's the luck of the draw. If the Heat trainer had been paid to knee-cap those players you might have a point. lol. But injuries happen in sport. Part of the reality and definitely not enough to even begin to discredit a champion.

Look, I'm not a Heat fan, but fair is fair.

They won. And they earned it.


Injuries are a reality of sports, but you are currently using them as an excuse to discredit a team you aren't fond of. You're also leaving out the fact that the teams that went to the Finals had injuries of their own to deal with, especially Miami.

C'mon man.

Most of this is residual dislike for the way the Heat came together. But like Shaq's opinions of Howard, it's time to face reality and move on.

Credit where credit is due.

bucketss
10-05-2012, 03:44 PM
Not in one year other than last season has 2 top 5 players in the league been out for the entire playoffs especially not in one conference.

too bad rose isn't a top 5 player.

JordansBulls
10-05-2012, 03:45 PM
Injuries are a reality of sports, but you are currently using them as an excuse to discredit a team you aren't fond of. You're also leaving out the fact that the teams that went to the Finals had injuries of their own to deal with, especially Miami.

C'mon man.

Somehow it would be a different tune had the Bulls been healthy and say Wade or Lebron was out for the playoffs alone with Dwight and Chicago won it all. Everyone would be saying Bulls only won because Wade or Lebron was out for the entire playoffs.

Chronz
10-05-2012, 03:45 PM
They were freaking down 3-2 to Boston while having HCA. The same Boston team it took 7 games to beat the Sixers.

So? They were without Bosh and Wade was hobbled. If Rose is healthy, why cant we magically fix Wade, Miller and Bosh?

C_Mund
10-05-2012, 03:46 PM
We dont need to go over this again. I personally had boston beating chicago if they met in the semis. But the way lebron was playing, nothing was stopping miami from reaching the finals last year.

Jeff Van Gundy said it best.... "How long can we stay mad at somebody for making a stupid decision? It's time to just sit back and appreciate greatness."

Some people just don't get it. It doesn't matter whether you're trying to qualify the championship, it happened.... and Lebron kicked ***. I was a huge fan in Cleve, hated the move to Miami but as a bball fan I just about **** my pants watching him take over that series.

JordansBulls
10-05-2012, 03:46 PM
too bad rose isn't a top 5 player.

Too bad he is and he was voted so two years in a row.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-05-2012, 03:48 PM
Too bad he is and he was voted so two years in a row.

Where's TMac for you?

Chronz
10-05-2012, 03:48 PM
Not in one year other than last season has 2 top 5 players in the league been out for the entire playoffs especially not in one conference.
Thems the breaks, remember when Duncan missed the playoffs and the Lakers won the chip. Then remember when C-Webb and Dirk got injured for the playoffs to make his path to the Finals that much easier. **** happens, part of being a champion is being the last one standing through all the adversity.

Out of curiosity, what about when Wilt had to play without Baylor and West?

JordansBulls
10-05-2012, 03:49 PM
So? They were without Bosh and Wade was hobbled. If Rose is healthy, why cant we magically fix Wade, Miller and Bosh?

And Boozer/Noah was injured the year before in the playoffs as well.

ink
10-05-2012, 03:49 PM
Jeff Van Gundy said it best.... "How long can we stay mad at somebody for making a stupid decision? It's time to just sit back and appreciate greatness."

Great quote.

ink
10-05-2012, 03:50 PM
And Boozer/Noah was injured the year before in the playoffs as well.

Problem with that logic is that none of that is on last year's champions.

Chronz
10-05-2012, 03:51 PM
Somehow it would be a different tune had the Bulls been healthy and say Wade or Lebron was out for the playoffs alone with Dwight and Chicago won it all. Everyone would be saying Bulls only won because Wade or Lebron was out for the entire playoffs.

Wouldn't change the fact that Rose is a champion, and why do you keep bringing up Dwight? Nobody feared that team, hell a team as bad as Atlanta eliminated them the year prior and they were a better team then.

JordansBulls
10-05-2012, 03:51 PM
Thems the breaks, remember when Duncan missed the playoffs and the Lakers won the chip. Then remember when C-Webb and Dirk got injured for the playoffs to make his path to the Finals that much easier. **** happens, part of being a champion is being the last one standing through all the adversity.

Out of curiosity, what about when Wilt had to play without Baylor and West?

Yeah but how many of them were on teams that was the #1 seed overall? When Duncan was injured they were the 4th seed anyway. Even Hollinger mentioned the Bulls would have won it all last year or at least beaten Miami with Rose around.

SteBO
10-05-2012, 03:51 PM
Somehow it would be a different tune had the Bulls been healthy and say Wade or Lebron was out for the playoffs alone with Dwight and Chicago won it all. Everyone would be saying Bulls only won because Wade or Lebron was out for the entire playoffs.
So? Does it make them right? You won't convince me that it does. Health is every bit as essential to a team as the players' skill is, because both are linked. It really is unfortunate that Rose got hurt, and it pained me as an NBA fan. Bulls-Celtics or Heat-Bulls would've been spectacular series'.

However, Miami had Bosh for an entire series' and wasn't healthy at all for the remainder of the playoffs once he came back, which is why it was so amazing that he played the way he played defensively. I don't think I need to explain how important Bosh is to Miami.....Regardless, injuries happen and Miami won it all despite injury concerns of their own.

He115ing
10-05-2012, 03:52 PM
Charles Barkley has been know for saying stupid things, but this has got to be up there in the top three.

Chronz
10-05-2012, 03:52 PM
And Boozer/Noah was injured the year before in the playoffs as well.

Thats probably one of the reasons why the Heat disposed of them in 5 quick games but whats that got to do with this year?

bucketss
10-05-2012, 03:53 PM
Too bad he is and he was voted so two years in a row.

on psd or espn?

bucketss
10-05-2012, 03:55 PM
So? They were without Bosh and Wade was hobbled. If Rose is healthy, why cant we magically fix Wade, Miller and Bosh?

this is funny because jb said the bulls got nearly swept in 2011 because boozer and noah were hobled or otherwise miami would have gotten swept.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-05-2012, 03:56 PM
Of course you'll agree with what ever favors your guy. :laugh2:

?

majority of the time they are correct.. so if you find yourself disagreeing with analysts, whether its about 'your guy' or not, you are most likely to be dead wrong.

Simply because they analyze for a living, and have been doing it for countless of years, rather than nba fans who claim unbiasedness, yet get emotional over a certain player.

majority of the fans have to come to the realization that most, not all, of their thoughts are biased. it is what it is..

but to think that ESPN, NBA, or any other PROFESSIONAL analyst is discredible just because they say a bold statement and back it up with either real life interaction between at least one of the players, is just silly.

for example, Charles Barkley (last year), said the Miami Heat would lose against every team they faced in the playoffs in 2010 (except for Philly) because of the lack of center, chemistry, etc. I did not like it, and was talking **** about chuck, but I knew he had a valid point once i put my homerism aside.

just sayin

Chronz
10-05-2012, 03:56 PM
Yeah but how many of them were on teams that was the #1 seed overall?
Yea but how many of the teams you mentioned were returning champs?



When Duncan was injured they were the 4th seed anyway.
With an SRS that was actually higher than it was when they won the title in 2003. Again, none of this changes what we've been telling you.


Even Hollinger mentioned the Bulls would have won it all last year or at least beaten Miami with Rose around.
So? I had Miami losing to Chicago too before the injuries mounted, doesnt change anything.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-05-2012, 03:57 PM
LOL cool story. That's where all the higher intellects get their well collected information.

....

dude just face it, they are more credible than you or i.

let it go or be a professional nba analyst.

Im_in_Mia_bish
10-05-2012, 03:59 PM
:facepalm: :speechless: :sad2: :bang: :no: :pity: :crazy: :ohno: :badidea:

Never go full ESPN.

Stop it lol of course I don't follow 110% whatever ESPN says.
that would make me like the Republicans, who will only watch FOX news. lol

thankfully I branch out to other credible sports websites, channels, etc.

ESPN, CBS, Yahoo Sports, NBA, NFL, UEFA, MLB only.

bleacher report, slam, PSD, etc, no thanks lol