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View Full Version : Knicks GM: Decision to let Lin go was financial



xnick5757
10-01-2012, 05:49 PM
It came down to dollars and sense.

That's the message the New York Knicks delivered on Monday as GM Glen Grunwald made his first public comments about the team's decision to let Jeremy Lin go to the Houston Rockets in the offseason.

Grunwald and coach Mike Woodson both wished Lin well in Houston, but also stressed that they were happy with their current point guard, Raymond Felton.

"Basically, it comes down to the fact that Houston made a commitment to him that we weren't prepared to make," Grunwald said on Monday, making reference to the 3-year, $25.1 million offer the Rockets made to Lin last July. "But I'm very happy for Jeremy that things worked out for him personally and for his family and I wish him the best.

"I'm more excited for our team, the team we assembled right now. ... We're very excited and optimistic about this coming year."

Added Woodson: "I'm not going to discuss Jeremy Lin. I think as a franchise we wish Jeremy nothing but the best. It's a process that we went through and we were able to get a player by the name of Raymond Felton, and a guy by the name of Jason Kidd, a Pablo (Prigioni) in here. ... As an organization and as coach I wish Jeremy nothing but the best."

Back in July, the Knicks decided not to match Houston's offer to Lin, which included a $14.8 million payment in Year 3.

If the Knicks matched the offer, they would have been subject to a luxury tax in the third year, potentially bringing their total out-of-pocket cost for the team's salary to about $43 million in 2014-15. So the team decided to let him walk to Houston and instead obtained Felton in a sign-and-trade with Portland.

Felton thrived in a previous stint with the Knicks, averaging 17 points and nine assists in 54 games during the 2010-11 season. He was sent to Denver in February of that year in the Carmelo Anthony trade.

The 28-year-old had a subpar season in Portland last year. He admittedly came into camp out of shape and averaged just 11.5 points and 6.5 assists on 41 percent shooting.

"I was out of shape when we first went there," Felton said on Monday at the team's annual media day. "... I'm in shape now, ready to go and I've got a big, big chip on my shoulder. So I look forward to this season and I'm definitely happy to be back in this New York Knicks jersey."

The Knicks also acquired veterans Marcus Camby, Kurt Thomas and Kidd in the offseason, and are expected to bring 38-year-old Rasheed Wallace into training camp.

Some have questioned the Knicks' rationale in bringing in so many players seemingly in the twilight of their career. But Woodson explained on Monday that he, Grunwald and team ownership wanted to surround the team's core of Anthony, Amare Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler with veterans.

"We felt that we needed veteran pieces around those guys," Woodson said. "(There aren't) young guys who are winning NBA titles."

The Knicks, of course, last won a title in the 1972-73 season. Woodson said on Monday that he believes that this year's team -- if healthy -- has a "legitimate" chance to end the drought and win the NBA championship.

"I think we've got a legitimate shot here, as (much as) anybody in the NBA this season, to reach that goal," the coach said.


source (http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/8449503/new-york-knicks-gm-says-reason-jeremy-lin-was-let-go-was-financial)



aren't they one of the richest teams in the league?

Fnom11
10-01-2012, 07:16 PM
Why is this a thread? Are you serious?

Hawkeye15
10-01-2012, 07:19 PM
It's just odd to me, that after years of irresponsible spending, they balk at matching Lin's deal, which isn't half as bad as a good number of deals they gave out the past decade.

29$JerZ
10-01-2012, 07:24 PM
It's just odd to me, that after years of irresponsible spending, they balk at matching Lin's deal, which isn't half as bad as a good number of deals they gave out the past decade.

Give Amare max uninsured contract
Give Melo max before new CBA kicks in
Gave Jeffries, Jerome James full MlE
130 million Luxury team for a 23-32-23-31 win product
Giving Lin money in year 3? Frugal mode enabled

Dolan is terrible.

More-Than-Most
10-01-2012, 07:26 PM
It's just odd to me, that after years of irresponsible spending, they balk at matching Lin's deal, which isn't half as bad as a good number of deals they gave out the past decade.

I agree that it is surprising when you factor in some of their terrible contracts handed out but to me this is a good sign for their organization...Maybe they are becoming a bit more responsible as an organization and wont just throw money out there left and right in hope that something sticks....I thought they would over pay for Lin and it might not be much of an over pay when you factor in what he would bring to the franchise from oversees popularity but as a player he will not be worth it...I am not nor was I ever sold on Lin and from a basketball stand point I think the knicks did the right thing letting him go because he is vastly overrated and unproven.

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 07:27 PM
It's just odd to me, that after years of irresponsible spending, they balk at matching Lin's deal, which isn't half as bad as a good number of deals they gave out the past decade.

Look no further than James Dolan feeling slighted. Instead of giving Lin an initial offer to show they wanted him on board, they said go out and get your best offer and we'll literally match any amount. Well, thats just what he did and they did not match. What a joke. If Lin is as good as i think he is i'll never forget this BS charade.

Jint.
10-01-2012, 07:27 PM
It's just odd to me, that after years of irresponsible spending, they balk at matching Lin's deal, which isn't half as bad as a good number of deals they gave out the past decade.

Bingo.! Why draw the line at Lin ?

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 07:28 PM
I honestly hate being a Knick fan. I liken it to a disease. When they didn't match Lin i tried to leave but they pulled me back in. ITS IN THE BLOOD!

BKLYNpigeon
10-01-2012, 07:32 PM
i dont think it was about money....

jimm120
10-01-2012, 07:32 PM
It's just odd to me, that after years of irresponsible spending, they balk at matching Lin's deal, which isn't half as bad as a good number of deals they gave out the past decade.

it really wasn't the actual contract but the tax hit. Lin was going to cost around $45 million in taxes (plus his salary) his third year alone.

Mr Costanza
10-01-2012, 07:33 PM
Why is this a thread? Are you serious?

Better question: why bother to post in a thread you find irrelevant?

Anyway I don't buy it, this was Dolans ego, not finances. Again, if you saw my cable bill you'd see Dolan doesn't have money problems.

More-Than-Most
10-01-2012, 07:34 PM
Bingo.! Why draw the line at Lin ?

So because of past stupid mistakes they should keep making mistakes? People say they spend stupidly and they do but now that they draw the line in the sand and save on said stupid contract they are still in the wrong?

jam
10-01-2012, 07:35 PM
Go test the market. LMAO!

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 07:39 PM
it really wasn't the actual contract but the tax hit. Lin was going to cost around $45 million in taxes (plus his salary) his third year alone.

And there are multiple reasons why that is irrelevant.

- By the time the taxes kick in he would be easy to trade as an expiring

- If he wasn't worth the money we could cut him and use the stretch provision to extensively limit luxary tax

- You worry about later, later. We had a solid two years to have him on the cheap and figure out what to do down the road. Hell, we' could've traded Amar'e as an expiring if we needed to. A good GM would've figured out away around this luxary tax BS.

- Walt Clyde said we should've signed him. Nuff said.

Its been said, saying Lin cost 45 million in a year is like having 3 fat guys in an elevator, and blaming the skinny guy who gets on and trips the weight limit alarm.

Knicks fans are actually happy we didn't bring him back... smfh

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 07:43 PM
Linsanity was bigger than 45 million. Linsanity got the gazzillion dollar Time Warner deal signed which further lined Dolan's pockets. There is no excuse for how this went down.

As much as people say Knicks fans act like we're entitled, Lin was OURS and he was ripped away from us by our incompetent owner. It doesn't get any worse.

Hawkeye15
10-01-2012, 07:48 PM
it really wasn't the actual contract but the tax hit. Lin was going to cost around $45 million in taxes (plus his salary) his third year alone.

oh, I know, but the Knicks make a TON of money.

I guess the new CBA really did make an impact this summer, even to the teams I thought would never care about taxes.

Cal827
10-01-2012, 07:50 PM
LOLWUT?

Somewhere, Eddy Curry is at a San Antonio deep-fried restaurant laughing his *** off at this article.
:laugh:

Hawkeye15
10-01-2012, 07:50 PM
I agree that it is surprising when you factor in some of their terrible contracts handed out but to me this is a good sign for their organization...Maybe they are becoming a bit more responsible as an organization and wont just throw money out there left and right in hope that something sticks....I thought they would over pay for Lin and it might not be much of an over pay when you factor in what he would bring to the franchise from oversees popularity but as a player he will not be worth it...I am not nor was I ever sold on Lin and from a basketball stand point I think the knicks did the right thing letting him go because he is vastly overrated and unproven.

And do you think Knicks fans are going to settle for a fiscally intelligent owner? That hasn't been the way New York City teams have worked for a long time.

More-Than-Most
10-01-2012, 07:54 PM
And do you think Knicks fans are going to settle for a fiscally intelligent owner? That hasn't been the way New York City teams have worked for a long time.

Lol no they will hate this

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 07:55 PM
Not signing Lin because you're already capped out on mediocre players (sans Chandler) does not make you fiscally intelligent. Nor should anyone see it that way.

More-Than-Most
10-01-2012, 07:55 PM
I would like to tell the NBA forum to go **** itself...over the past 3 days I have defended the Lakers/Knicks

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/guns/suicide.gif

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 07:57 PM
Man.. this topic gets me fired up. I had almost forgotten about this madness but there have been Lin threads cropping up lately for some reason.. FML

shep33
10-01-2012, 08:01 PM
Doesn't make sense. Hawkeye is right. They've spent like fools over the past decade and now they want to save money? Not signing Lin was a bad move imo. Even if you signed him for a 3 year deal that's heavily backloaded. He's still young enough and good enough to trade before his contract gets heavy. Dude also makes a ton of money for whatever franchise he goes to.

Hawkeye15
10-01-2012, 08:02 PM
Man.. this topic gets me fired up. I had almost forgotten about this madness but there have been Lin threads cropping up lately for some reason.. FML

haha, step away from the ledge my friend

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 08:03 PM
haha, step away from the ledge my friend

I'm relapsing.. HELP ME!!!

29$JerZ
10-01-2012, 08:04 PM
I need to buy Kash a Jeremy Lin Blow up Doll

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 08:05 PM
I need to buy Kash a Jeremy Lin Blow up Doll

He was the best thing that ever happened to me:cry:

TheNumber37
10-01-2012, 08:06 PM
lin was not worth it. he was worth 18 mil for 3 years. in. 3years they woulda paid him 15 mil and he would not even be top 10 at his position

Mr Costanza
10-01-2012, 08:08 PM
He was the best thing that ever happened to me:cry:

Don't ever forget what Andyfromneptune did to you.

PlezPlayDKnicks
10-01-2012, 08:09 PM
And there are multiple reasons why that is irrelevant.

- By the time the taxes kick in he would be easy to trade as an expiring

- If he wasn't worth the money we could cut him and use the stretch provision to extensively limit luxary tax

- You worry about later, later. We had a solid two years to have him on the cheap and figure out what to do down the road. Hell, we' could've traded Amar'e as an expiring if we needed to. A good GM would've figured out away around this luxary tax BS.

- Walt Clyde said we should've signed him. Nuff said.

Its been said, saying Lin cost 45 million in a year is like having 3 fat guys in an elevator, and blaming the skinny guy who gets on and trips the weight limit alarm.

Knicks fans are actually happy we didn't bring him back... smfh

Yeah that pisses me off as well

HouRealCoach
10-01-2012, 08:10 PM
Why doesn't Dolan & Grunwald just tell the truth?

It was because Melo saw that he wasn't big enough to overtake Linsanity and he got his *** put out..

First step was getting rid of Dantoni seeing that he flourished in his system
Second step was telling Lin to not return in the playoffs against the Heat
Last was saying that they would match any deal up to 1 billion dollars just so someone could challenge that statement and they could make up a lie

Pretty childish if you ask me

29$JerZ
10-01-2012, 08:11 PM
That may be the best example of fat people and Dolan I Ever heard lol

Daze9900
10-01-2012, 08:17 PM
I honestly hate being a Knick fan. I liken it to a disease. When they didn't match Lin i tried to leave but they pulled me back in. ITS IN THE BLOOD!

This. lol I got ripped apart by my friends on facebook and my wife compared it to me divorcing her starting an argument. She was like "so you would stop being a fan of me all of a sudden" and I got sucked back into rooting and hoping that Amare is going to pay defense and grab rebounds. Hoping that carmelo will pass the ball a little bit run some kind of a play thats not an iso hoping that they will stop giving JR a green light even when he's clearly off. This year I feel like im rooting for the logo and i dont have any players on this team that I particularly like outside of Novak.

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 08:20 PM
This. lol I got ripped apart by my friends on facebook and my wife compared it to me divorcing her starting an argument. She was like "so you would stop being a fan of me all of a sudden" and I got sucked back into rooting and hoping that Amare is going to pay defense and grab rebounds. Hoping that carmelo will pass the ball a little bit run some kind of a play thats not an iso hoping that they will stop giving JR a green light even when he's clearly off. This year I feel like im rooting for the logo and i dont have any players on this team that I particularly like outside of Novak.

Jesus Christ man we're two in the same. You're not in this alone brotha!

Evolution23
10-01-2012, 08:22 PM
Jesus Christ man we're two in the same. You're not in this alone brotha!

Knicks won't miss u. Dip while u have the chance. Become a Rockets fan!

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 08:27 PM
Knicks won't miss u. Dip while u have the chance. Become a Rockets fan!

Do you ever get tired of looking like a clown?

I'm getting League Pass this year so i'm deff gonna catch a lot of Rockets games.. Don't worry about me i have it all figured out. :)

LongIslandIcedZ
10-01-2012, 08:31 PM
He was saving face, its pretty obvious this wasnt a financial matter.

smith&wesson
10-01-2012, 08:34 PM
It's just odd to me, that after years of irresponsible spending, they balk at matching Lin's deal, which isn't half as bad as a good number of deals they gave out the past decade.

Maybe they simply think he isnt that good ?? :shrug:

Evolution23
10-01-2012, 08:39 PM
Do you ever get tired of looking like a clown?

I'm getting League Pass this year so i'm deff gonna catch a lot of Rockets games.. Don't worry about me i have it all figured out. :)

You are calling me a clown but the funny thing is you were doubting Lin the whole time when I was telling you he should start. Yeah so now you sound real dumb because your basketball IQ isn't up to par.

203 Uconn LaL
10-01-2012, 08:41 PM
i dont think it was about money....

Agreed. I believe it was him agreeing to a deal with the Rockets and then going back and reworking the deal is what pissed Dolan off. But they should have never came out publicly and stated they would match the Rockets offer.

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 08:41 PM
You are calling me a clown but the funny thing is you were doubting Lin the whole time when I was telling you he should start. Yeah so now you sound real dumb because your basketball IQ isn't up to par.

Lol that literally never happened. I wasn't one of the originals but i supported Lin fairly early on. Before his breakout game vs the Nets. Its documented i'm sure we could find it.

Evolution23
10-01-2012, 08:43 PM
Maybe they simply think he isnt that good ?? :shrug:

Pretty much this. He was good for 10 games because no one had a game plan for him. Now It's pretty clear Lin has many weaknesses like he can't drive left, weak jumpshot, turnover prone to say the least, and terrible defensively. Say what you want, i'll be laughing at you fools when he stinks it up in Houston.

Evolution23
10-01-2012, 08:43 PM
Lol that literally never happened. I wasn't one of the originals but i supported Lin fairly early on. Before his breakout game vs the Nets. Its documented i'm sure we could find it.

LOL I remember you saying Andy Routins was better. Check the records bro.

Evolution23
10-01-2012, 08:44 PM
The only few people that supported Lin from the beginning were me and Queens G... WE made threads about how he was the best option at point guard at that time. We both got hated on but we ended up being right.

smith&wesson
10-01-2012, 08:46 PM
Pretty much this. He was good for 10 games because no one had a game plan for him. Now It's pretty clear Lin has many weaknesses like he can't drive left, weak jumpshot, turnover prone to say the least, and terrible defensively. Say what you want, i'll be laughing at you fools when he stinks it up in Houston.

Exactly...

plus felton has proven that he can play well with stat already. having kidd there to back him is a no brainer... no ones going to miss lin.

Mr Costanza
10-01-2012, 08:47 PM
What pissed me off about this **** was there have countless times we miss out on a player for reasons out of our control (cap space, trade assets, not being man enough to play in NY ;) no draft pick, etc) This one was in ownerships control and IMO they missed it.

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 09:08 PM
LOL I remember you saying Andy Routins was better. Check the records bro.
Check the records bro he played like Andy Rautins in his first 2-3 appearances.


The only few people that supported Lin from the beginning were me and Queens G... WE made threads about how he was the best option at point guard at that time. We both got hated on but we ended up being right.
And now you're happy we have Felton. Deep down you probably know we ****ed up but you just can't admit the Knicks are a poorly run franchise.

EDIT: Don't forget TeamMelo, he also supported him from day 1.

Hawkeye15
10-01-2012, 09:11 PM
Do you ever get tired of looking like a clown?

I'm getting League Pass this year so i'm deff gonna catch a lot of Rockets games.. Don't worry about me i have it all figured out. :)

of course you do. You are watching the Wolves this year......:p

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 09:12 PM
Pretty much this. He was good for 10 games because no one had a game plan for him. Now It's pretty clear Lin has many weaknesses like he can't drive left, weak jumpshot, turnover prone to say the least, and terrible defensively. Say what you want, i'll be laughing at you fools when he stinks it up in Houston.

lmfao you can't play that card after you just told me how genius you were for scouting Lin's talent-level. Homer flip-flopper

DoMeFavors
10-01-2012, 09:12 PM
If Lin was anything but Asian I think he gets the money, they have no faith in him.

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 09:13 PM
of course you do. You are watching the Wolves this year......:p

I am watching the Wolves this year. :shrug:

Hawkeye15
10-01-2012, 09:13 PM
Pretty much this. He was good for 10 games because no one had a game plan for him. Now It's pretty clear Lin has many weaknesses like he can't drive left, weak jumpshot, turnover prone to say the least, and terrible defensively. Say what you want, i'll be laughing at you fools when he stinks it up in Houston.

When the Knicks played the Wolves, I saw Rubio literally say, "he can't go left" early in the 3rd. Rubio shut him down the 2nd half completely. Lin has talent. He was awesome on long 2's (will that continue?), but he can not go left, and just turns it over too much. That being said, its hard to judge a guy who never got a shot, and pick apart his game. Do I think he was worth his deal? No. But I think he will be a good starter.

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 09:15 PM
When the Knicks played the Wolves, I saw Rubio literally say, "he can't go left" early in the 3rd. Rubio shut him down the 2nd half completely. Lin has talent. He was awesome on long 2's (will that continue?), but he can not go left, and just turns it over too much. That being said, its hard to judge a guy who never got a shot, and pick apart his game. Do I think he was worth his deal? No. But I think he will be a good starter.

Like i've told you many times. He turnovers are not more concerning than Rubios. Its in the numbers.

NYKnicksAllDay
10-01-2012, 09:17 PM
He was the best thing that ever happened to me:cry:

Don't ever forget what Andyfromneptune did to you.

I'm still pissed about that **** too.

Hawkeye15
10-01-2012, 09:19 PM
Like i've told you many times. He turnovers are not more concerning than Rubios. Its in the numbers.

Well, going forward, I don't think anyone would take Lin over Rubio, considering one is an elite defender/distributor, especially when you factor in weapons on roster. Furthermore, I wasn't looking to compare my guy versus yours, I am simply keeping this topic on Lin.

smith&wesson
10-01-2012, 09:20 PM
of course you do. You are watching the Wolves this year......:p

Love watching twolves games.. rubio is legit. minni would have been playoff bound if he didnt get injured.

smith&wesson
10-01-2012, 09:21 PM
Well, going forward, I don't think anyone would take Lin over Rubio, considering one is an elite defender/distributor, especially when you factor in weapons on roster. Furthermore, I wasn't looking to compare my guy versus yours, I am simply keeping this topic on Lin.

your being too nice

rubio >>>> lin

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 09:21 PM
Well, going forward, I don't think anyone would take Lin over Rubio, considering one is an elite defender/distributor, especially when you factor in weapons on roster. Furthermore, I wasn't looking to compare my guy versus yours, I am simply keeping this topic on Lin.

lmfao, ok. We'll see dude.

Evolution23
10-01-2012, 09:22 PM
When the Knicks played the Wolves, I saw Rubio literally say, "he can't go left" early in the 3rd. Rubio shut him down the 2nd half completely. Lin has talent. He was awesome on long 2's (will that continue?), but he can not go left, and just turns it over too much. That being said, its hard to judge a guy who never got a shot, and pick apart his game. Do I think he was worth his deal? No. But I think he will be a good starter.

Rubio is a solid defender and for him to say "he can't go left," speaks volume to Lin's game. How can a point guard in the NBA not be able to go left. That sounds ridiculous to me. I think he has the ability to get to the rim against poor defenders like Fisher and Calderon as we have seen. At the end of the day he's a 2 guard in a pg's body and he's still a slightly below average player.

Edit: Rubio is 1000x better than Lin. He's been playing pro ball since 14 and he has a grasp of the game better than seasoned veterans. I wouldn't even dare compare Rubio to Lin. It's blasphemy.

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 09:24 PM
I'm comparing the two. Jeremy is clearly a better scorer, not too far behind in distribution, and about the same for turnovers.

Hawkeye15
10-01-2012, 09:24 PM
lmfao, ok. We'll see dude.

cmon dude. I know you like Lin, but Rubio is going to be the better player. He is already elite defensively, a gifted passer, and unless an oddity happens, will improve his terrible offense to at least an acceptable level. Lin is not good defensively, not a great rebounder, and just smells like the "fluke" rule on long 2's.

But yes, we will see. Again, I didn't want to drag a "my guy versus your guy" comparison out, I was simply pointing out Lin's problems, nothing more.

ink
10-01-2012, 09:28 PM
If Lin was anything but Asian I think he gets the money, they have no faith in him.

Race has NOTHING to do with it. If anything he would be a marketing BENEFIT because he is Asian. IMO they dodged a bullet not overpaying someone that could easily be a flash in the pan.

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 09:29 PM
cmon dude. I know you like Lin, but Rubio is going to be the better player. He is already elite defensively, a gifted passer, and unless an oddity happens, will improve his terrible offense to at least an acceptable level. Lin is not good defensively, not a great rebounder, and just smells like the "fluke" rule on long 2's.

But yes, we will see. Again, I didn't want to drag a "my guy versus your guy" comparison out, I was simply pointing out Lin's problems, nothing more.

And i'm simply pointing out that if turnovers are a problem for Lin they are also a problem for Rubio. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

And its not just long twos either, Jeremy is much better around the rim and that wasn't flukish at all.

I seem to remember Rubio turning it over and Lin winning the game but they'll see each other a good 4 times next year.

Hawkeye15
10-01-2012, 09:31 PM
And i'm simply pointing out that if turnovers are a problem for Lin they are also a problem for Rubio. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

And its not just long twos either, Jeremy is much better around the rim and that wasn't flukish at all.

I seem to remember Rubio turning it over and Lin winning the game but they'll see each other a good 4 times next year.

When did I say turnovers weren't a problem for Rubio, and something he needs to clean up?

You can have Lin. I will take Rubio. Living in Houston, all my friends are about to go homer over Lin, so I will be dealing with him for a long time.

ink
10-01-2012, 09:34 PM
When did I say turnovers weren't a problem for Rubio, and something he needs to clean up?

You can have Lin. I will take Rubio. Living in Houston, all my friends are about to go homer over Lin, so I will be dealing with him for a long time.

Rubio has far more potential than Lin will ever have. If the Knicks had had the chance to sign Rubio they wouldn't have hesitated for a millisecond.

PurpleJesus
10-01-2012, 09:34 PM
I thought it was a good idea for the Knicks to let Lin go. During the whole Linsanity thing last year, I kept laughing, cause I thought the Knicks were going to be forced to sign an over rated player to a contract he doesnt deserve. Good work by the front office for not falling into the trap that they so often do.

xxplayerxx23
10-01-2012, 09:34 PM
Bull **** Dolan was insulted Lin went to Houston to get a better deal and he let his feelings get in the way of resiging Lin. I like Lin and it was a mistake to let him go but Knicks have to forget about him and hope Felton is in shape. I think Lin has a 17-8 year in Houston and wish him the best, I will be rooting for him.

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 09:35 PM
When did I say turnovers weren't a problem for Rubio, and something he needs to clean up?

You can have Lin. I will take Rubio. Living in Houston, all my friends are about to go homer over Lin, so I will be dealing with him for a long time.

Proves to me that you've had it in for him since day one. I love you bro, but i think "dealing" with the NYK fanbase on here has skewed some of your opinions. Thats human nature though i guess. I'm not innocent of that kind of though process and most people aren't.

xxplayerxx23
10-01-2012, 09:37 PM
Rubio's defense blows Lin's out of the Water, Id take Rubio over Lin unless Rubio doesn't come back 100 % which would be such a shame.

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 09:38 PM
And just to clarify for anyone that wants to jump down my throat, i did not say i'd take Lin over Rubio or that Lin is the better player. Read my post again if you think i said that.

Hawkeye15
10-01-2012, 09:46 PM
Proves to me that you've had it in for him since day one. I love you bro, but i think "dealing" with the NYK fanbase on here has skewed some of your opinions. Thats human nature though i guess. I'm not innocent of that kind of though process and most people aren't.

no, I say "dealing" because my friends, specifically two of them, are ridiculous homers that annoy me to death. One of them told me last year that he wouldn't trade Scola for Love. The other told me Dragic was a top 3 PG.

So yes, I will be "dealing" with Lin love going forward. I actually like Lin. He was/is fun to watch.

I have no problem with Knicks fans at all. I still don't get why some fans need validation of their opinions, that just seems weird to me, and the large number of Knicks fans here mean there are a good number of those types. But I actually have no problem with any NBA team outside the Lakers.

Hawkeye15
10-01-2012, 09:46 PM
And just to clarify for anyone that wants to jump down my throat, i did not say i'd take Lin over Rubio or that Lin is the better player. Read my post again if you think i said that.

I want to vouch for this. I have never seen you say that. I said it.

Kashmir13579
10-01-2012, 09:49 PM
I want to vouch for this. I have never seen you say that. I said it.

hahahaha thanks mate:D

Evolution23
10-01-2012, 10:01 PM
Rubio has far more potential than Lin will ever have. If the Knicks had had the chance to sign Rubio they wouldn't have hesitated for a millisecond.

Knicks wanted Rubio a few years ago because Donnie Walsh saw the potential in him. To be honest the Knicks forum was raving about him Rubio because most of saw the flashes of brilliance. Khan made the smart move by waiting it out.

2-ONE-5
10-01-2012, 10:38 PM
this well known from the start. this isnt news

jam
10-02-2012, 12:26 AM
I just appreciate the fact that you have the stats to back this up. :facepalm:

Rubio's shooting is horrid, btw, and has been throughout his career.


cmon dude. I know you like Lin, but Rubio is going to be the better player. He is already elite defensively, a gifted passer, and unless an oddity happens, will improve his terrible offense to at least an acceptable level. Lin is not good defensively, not a great rebounder, and just smells like the "fluke" rule on long 2's.

But yes, we will see. Again, I didn't want to drag a "my guy versus your guy" comparison out, I was simply pointing out Lin's problems, nothing more.

Dankster
10-02-2012, 12:44 AM
It all stems from whether or not Lin received 2 offers from the Rockets. Up until today, ESPNNY Ian Begley keeps reporting that he received an initial offer from the Rockets for 4 yrs and 24 mill and than the contract was restructured a few days later to give Lin 15 million for his final year which would've forced the Knicks to pay 45 million dollars for that 3rd year alone when factoring in the luxury tax.

Lin refutes that this happened and that he only had one offer from the Rockets. Who knows at this point, but I can't see Dolan not signing him (just from a marketing standpoint alone) if Lin received just the one offer. Him receiving 2 offers however, seems a bit more realistic as to the reason why Dolan wouldn't resign him-- he essentially rubbed the owner the wrong way if he did go back and privately met again with the Rockets to restructure the initial deal.

Anyway, I could care less if he generates a billion dollars annually through marketing, as a fan I only care about his production on the court. His sample size is way too small to warrant such an exorbitant contract. Hard to tell if he's more like the player seen in February or in mid March ( I like to think he's more of a 14 ppg, 7apg guy like he showed the last month with the Knicks once teams started to "game-plan" for him.)

Hawkeye15
10-02-2012, 12:44 AM
I just appreciate the fact that you have the stats to back this up. :facepalm:

Rubio's shooting is horrid, btw, and has been throughout his career.

Are you asking me for the stats to back up Rubio's defense? Uh, no problem.

PurpleJesus
10-02-2012, 01:14 AM
I just appreciate the fact that you have the stats to back this up. :facepalm:

Rubio's shooting is horrid, btw, and has been throughout his career.

Shooting is his biggest weakness, which is why he barely shoots. If he can work on his shooting like Jason Kidd did, he will be just fine...****, he will be fine even if he never does find a jump shot. He is an elite defender, and has the vision and passing ability to lead the league in assists for multiple years.

Steelers23_06
10-02-2012, 01:38 AM
Shooting is his biggest weakness, which is why he barely shoots. If he can work on his shooting like Jason Kidd did, he will be just fine...****, he will be fine even if he never does find a jump shot. He is an elite defender, and has the vision and passing ability to lead the league in assists for multiple years.

hold up....what?! :eyebrow:

PurpleJesus
10-02-2012, 01:50 AM
hold up....what?! :eyebrow:

I said he is an elite defender...its not really up for debate.

Steelers23_06
10-02-2012, 02:19 AM
I said he is an elite defender...its not really up for debate.

lmao your really throwing around that elite word huh? i say to be "elite" you have to be top ten and you really think rubio is a top ten defensive pg? you can say above average because id give him B+ prob and thats being gracious, to be elite you have to be atleast an A. rose, rondo, paul, williams, conley, chalmers, jameer, andre miller, ty lawson, tony parker, westbrook, john wall are ALL better defenders then rubio hands down.

PurpleJesus
10-02-2012, 02:32 AM
lmao your really throwing around that elite word huh? i say to be "elite" you have to be top ten and you really think rubio is a top ten defensive pg? you can say above average because id give him B+ prob and thats being gracious, to be elite you have to be atleast an A. rose, rondo, paul, williams, conley, chalmers, jameer, andre miller, ty lawson, tony parker, westbrook, john wall are ALL better defenders then rubio hands down.

Rubio has more defensive win shares than 4 of the players you mentioned, and has a better steal percentage than those same 4.

I am sure Rubio is a much better defender than you believe he is. His man defense is superb, as well as his help defense.

Hawkeye15
10-02-2012, 03:05 AM
hold up....what?! :eyebrow:

he said Rubio is an elite defender. Is that up for debate?

Hawkeye15
10-02-2012, 03:08 AM
lmao your really throwing around that elite word huh? i say to be "elite" you have to be top ten and you really think rubio is a top ten defensive pg? you can say above average because id give him B+ prob and thats being gracious, to be elite you have to be atleast an A. rose, rondo, paul, williams, conley, chalmers, jameer, andre miller, ty lawson, tony parker, westbrook, john wall are ALL better defenders then rubio hands down.

#2 in steals, #3 in charges taken when he went down. Wolves gave up around 110 points per 100 possessions with Rubio sitting, 103 per 100 possessions with him playing, one of the better in the league. A defender like Rubio deflected a ton of passes, wasting precious time off the clock. The Wolves defense fell apart when he got hurt, because of his ability to keep perimeter players out of the paint, and his length made him an elite close out defender.

Paul, and possibly Chalmers, are the only defenders you listed better. You also missed Holiday. That's about it bud.

Steelers23_06
10-02-2012, 03:12 AM
Rubio has more defensive win shares than 4 of the players you mentioned, and has a better steal percentage than those same 4.

I am sure Rubio is a much better defender than you believe he is. His man defense is superb, as well as his help defense.

i am not saying hes bad im just saying hes not elite dont just throw around the word i gave him credit saying hes above avg im not saying all those pg i mentioned are all elite defenders either but they are better then rubio. and im not talking about win shares im talking about defense man-to-man, watching game, defense...numbers dont tell the whole story with defense. why do u think kg won DPOY that year it wasnt stats it was the things he did. numbers dont tell the whole story and i guarantee if you study all the pg's defense that i just mentioned in my last post you will see a better defender in any of them then in rubio.

Steelers23_06
10-02-2012, 03:13 AM
#2 in steals, #3 in charges taken when he went down. Wolves gave up around 110 points per 100 possessions with Rubio sitting, 103 per 100 possessions with him playing, one of the better in the league. A defender like Rubio deflected a ton of passes, wasting precious time off the clock. The Wolves defense fell apart when he got hurt, because of his ability to keep perimeter players out of the paint, and his length made him an elite close out defender.

Paul, and possibly Chalmers, are the only defenders you listed better. You also missed Holiday. That's about it bud.

hawkeye common i give you props you know your team and i never challenge you with twolves bc you always have crazy stats but you and i both know rubio is not an ELITE defender.

Hawkeye15
10-02-2012, 03:13 AM
i am not saying hes bad im just saying hes not elite dont just throw around the word i gave him credit saying hes above avg im not saying all those pg i mentioned are all elite defenders either but they are better then rubio. and im not talking about win shares im talking about defense man-to-man, watching game, defense...numbers dont tell the whole story with defense. why do u think kg won DPOY that year it wasnt stats it was the things he did. numbers dont tell the whole story and i guarantee if you study all the pg's defense that i just mentioned in my last post you will see a better defender in any of them then in rubio.

Uh, stats backed up the notion dude. How many times did you watch Rubio play? He is an ELITE defender.

PurpleJesus
10-02-2012, 03:17 AM
i am not saying hes bad im just saying hes not elite dont just throw around the word i gave him credit saying hes above avg im not saying all those pg i mentioned are all elite defenders either but they are better then rubio. and im not talking about win shares im talking about defense man-to-man, watching game, defense...numbers dont tell the whole story with defense. why do u think kg won DPOY that year it wasnt stats it was the things he did. numbers dont tell the whole story and i guarantee if you study all the pg's defense that i just mentioned in my last post you will see a better defender in any of them then in rubio.

Stats dont tell the whole story, but in an online discussion, they are about the only thing you can us to support claims. You have not brought anything to support your claim.

Also, the year KG won the DPOY, he had tremendous defensive stats...some of the best defensive stats of his career, because he was good at defense. Stats do tell quite a bit of a story, that is why the better players in the league, have better stats.

Also, I do watch quite a bit of basketball, and when I watch Rubio, I see a defensive presence that is rare in guards.

Hawkeye15
10-02-2012, 03:17 AM
hawkeye common i give you props you know your team and i never challenge you with twolves bc you always have crazy stats but you and i both know rubio is not an ELITE defender.

No, you don't think he is an elite defender. You are not in the majority.

"Crazy" stats haha. No my friend, they are very real. Rubio's defensive metrics, when you combine that with watching him turn guards and disrupt passing lanes without losing his man (uh, Rondo), while also contributing in the defensive rebounding game, while taking charges at every angle and all over the floor, along with his ability to pluck balls away without sacrificing position, make him an elite defender. Here is Hollinger's take:


Elite defender with great quickness and anticipation for steals. Takes charges.


Lost in all the hubbub is Rubio's secret strength -- the highlight-reel passes are nice and all, but his elite defense is the true difference-maker for this team. Rubio ranked fourth among point guards in steals per minute and excelled at drawing charges; between his unusual length for a point guard and his quick feet, he was immediately among the best defenders in the league. Thanks to his efforts, the Wolves gave up 7.3 points per 100 possessions less with him on the court.

The kid is a great defensive player, and will make all defensive teams in his NBA career, book it.

Steelers23_06
10-02-2012, 03:22 AM
No, you don't think he is an elite defender. You are not in the majority.

"Crazy" stats haha. No my friend, they are very real. Rubio's defensive metrics, when you combine that with watching him turn guards and disrupt passing lanes without losing his man (uh, Rondo), while also contributing in the defensive rebounding game, while taking charges at every angle and all over the floor, along with his ability to pluck balls away without sacrificing position, make him an elite defender. Here is Hollinger's take:





The kid is a great defensive player, and will make all defensive teams in his NBA career, book it.

he has the potential to be an elite defender he is not there yet. hes a hustle player like a pg version of varejao.

Hawkeye15
10-02-2012, 03:25 AM
he has the potential to be an elite defender he is not there yet. hes a hustle player like a pg version of varejao.

yet most analysts, and players who face him disagree. Rubio is already one of the better defenders on the PG level in the NBA. Fact.

btw, Varejao is an elite defender as well.

PurpleJesus
10-02-2012, 03:26 AM
he has the potential to be an elite defender he is not there yet. hes a hustle player like a pg version of varejao.

just cause you did it to me...

LMAO :eyebrow::facepalm:

Also, you compare him to a PG version of a player who earned a 2nd team all defense award...is that not elite?

Hawkeye15
10-02-2012, 03:29 AM
btw Steelers, you just said you take the word "elite" seriously. But it was you that tried to tell me Joe Johnson was an elite player.....

Steelers23_06
10-02-2012, 03:44 AM
btw Steelers, you just said you take the word "elite" seriously. But it was you that tried to tell me Joe Johnson was an elite player.....

so hes not an elite player? he only avg 18+ as the number one option on his team since he went to ATL and lead them to the playoffs the past 5 season but he isnt elite? you can make an argument about JJ being an elite SG wayyyyyy before you say rubio is an eilte defender RIGHT NOW, nvm potential. your such a homer and have your teams jockstrap so far up your nose its effecting your vision.

Steelers23_06
10-02-2012, 03:45 AM
just cause you did it to me...

LMAO :eyebrow::facepalm:

Also, you compare him to a PG version of a player who earned a 2nd team all defense award...is that not elite?

and your going to look back at varejao's career and say he was an elite defender?! if so we have a completely opposite view of what an elite defender is.

ewing
10-02-2012, 09:15 AM
It's just odd to me, that after years of irresponsible spending, they balk at matching Lin's deal, which isn't half as bad as a good number of deals they gave out the past decade.

Come on, like you wouldn't traded an expiring for for Jalen Rose at 16 mil a year. Anyone makes that deal at the time :)

ewing
10-02-2012, 09:22 AM
So because of past stupid mistakes they should keep making mistakes? People say they spend stupidly and they do but now that they draw the line in the sand and save on said stupid contract they are still in the wrong?


Yes b/c the Lin signing would not effect future flexibility? The team would have the same options when it comes to spending and acquiring players over the nest 3 years with or without Lin.

ewing
10-02-2012, 09:25 AM
oh, I know, but the Knicks make a TON of money.

I guess the new CBA really did make an impact this summer, even to the teams I thought would never care about taxes.

I don't buy it Hawk. The Knicks are going to way over the the cap and will use every exception and pick they can get there hands on. They are going to paying these luxury taxes regardless.

TyrionLannister
10-02-2012, 09:26 AM
David Stern should take a page out of Bud Selig's book and seize the team due to mismanagement, like he did with the Dodgers and the McCourts.

ewing
10-02-2012, 09:35 AM
Maybe they simply think he isnt that good ?? :shrug:


That could definitely be part of it but Lin did not seem to have a problem with the idea of being groomed. If the Knicks decided to use him as a spark plug off the bench while he better learned the PG position i really don't think the kid would of had a problem with it. I dont know how good lin is but i do know that few players in the NBA can get to the hole like him and that he is a good team guy. Since the only collateral damage of signing Lin would have been luxary tax i think they should have matched any offer

Evolution23
10-02-2012, 09:39 AM
so hes not an elite player? he only avg 18+ as the number one option on his team since he went to ATL and lead them to the playoffs the past 5 season but he isnt elite? you can make an argument about JJ being an elite SG wayyyyyy before you say rubio is an eilte defender RIGHT NOW, nvm potential. your such a homer and have your teams jockstrap so far up your nose its effecting your vision.

Joe Johnson is not elite. Kobe, Harden, Ginobili, and Wade are some of the elite players.

Evolution23
10-02-2012, 09:42 AM
Quick question... When does Rubio come back?

Kinkotheclown
10-02-2012, 09:45 AM
Give Amare max uninsured contract
Give Melo max before new CBA kicks in
Gave Jeffries, Jerome James full MlE
130 million Luxury team for a 23-32-23-31 win product
Giving Lin money in year 3? Frugal mode enabled

Dolan is terrible.

:clap:

ewing
10-02-2012, 09:46 AM
It all stems from whether or not Lin received 2 offers from the Rockets. Up until today, ESPNNY Ian Begley keeps reporting that he received an initial offer from the Rockets for 4 yrs and 24 mill and than the contract was restructured a few days later to give Lin 15 million for his final year which would've forced the Knicks to pay 45 million dollars for that 3rd year alone when factoring in the luxury tax.

Lin refutes that this happened and that he only had one offer from the Rockets. Who knows at this point, but I can't see Dolan not signing him (just from a marketing standpoint alone) if Lin received just the one offer. Him receiving 2 offers however, seems a bit more realistic as to the reason why Dolan wouldn't resign him-- he essentially rubbed the owner the wrong way if he did go back and privately met again with the Rockets to restructure the initial deal.




Anyway, I could care less if he generates a billion dollars annually through marketing, as a fan I only care about his production on the court. His sample size is way too small to warrant such an exorbitant contract. Hard to tell if he's more like the player seen in February or in mid March ( I like to think he's more of a 14 ppg, 7apg guy like he showed the last month with the Knicks once teams started to "game-plan" for him.)


He meet with the Rockets twice. In the first meeting there was no official offer sheet but the Rockets said they were willing to do the 4 year deal. Lin reported this to MSG like a good boy. When he went back to meet with the Rockets again and actually sign they changed there offer. Hence, Lin was presented with only one offer sheet.

If Lin did not accept the offer sheet (which would make no sense b/c it was for more money) his only option would have been to accept a one year qualifying offer from the Knicks

nycericanguy
10-02-2012, 09:52 AM
He meet with the Rockets twice. In the first meeting there was no official offer sheet but the Rockets said they were willing to do the 4 year deal. Lin reported this to MSG like a good boy. When he went back to meet with the Rockets again and actually sign they changed there offer. Hence, Lin was presented with only one offer sheet.

If Lin did not accept the offer sheet (which would make no sense b/c it was for more money) his only option would have been to accept a one year qualifying offer from the Knicks

Well thats not true, but no one really knows exactly what happened.

Judging from some of JR & Melo's comments, and from Lin himself saying he didn't take kindly to any critique of his game and his head got "too big", I think Lin was maybe not very well liked in the locker room. Jealousy probably played a role in it. I don't think this was 100% a financial decision.

Odominator
10-02-2012, 10:21 AM
i dont think it was about money....


This. Its not about the money, its about pleasing Melo. Lin was drawing way too much attention away from Melo and Melo did not like it.

Hard to be overrated when he was putting in solid numbers night in and night out. People are just going to hate because the kid plays with heart, talent, and has a Harvard education.

Odominator
10-02-2012, 10:24 AM
Well thats not true, but no one really knows exactly what happened.

Judging from some of JR & Melo's comments, and from Lin himself saying he didn't take kindly to any critique of his game and his head got "too big", I think Lin was maybe not very well liked in the locker room. Jealousy probably played a role in it. I don't think this was 100% a financial decision.\

Hard to see how Lin's ego affected the locker room, the kid would always credit his team and deflect the spotlight to his players. If only more NBA players showed more humility like Lin, Duncan, Nash, Grant Hill, Durant, etc, the League wouldn't be seen as a bunch of wannabe tatted out-weed smoking thugs.

ewing
10-02-2012, 10:56 AM
Well thats not true, but no one really knows exactly what happened.

Judging from some of JR & Melo's comments, and from Lin himself saying he didn't take kindly to any critique of his game and his head got "too big", I think Lin was maybe not very well liked in the locker room. Jealousy probably played a role in it. I don't think this was 100% a financial decision.


How is it not true maybe the knicks give him a little more then the 1 year qualify offer but he would basically be stuck and league precedent shows that's what you get. Putting himself in that position would have been a horrible business decision. Also, i know you watch knick games and it was obvious that most if not all of Lin's teammates loved him. He also showed good work ethic and was generally very humble. If your going to fish for comments and interpretations that show he might have an ego problem while ignoring the other 99.9% of his actions and words that would lead to believe something else you have an agenda.

nycericanguy
10-02-2012, 11:14 AM
How is it not true maybe the knicks give him a little more then the 1 year qualify offer but he would basically be stuck and league precedent shows that's what you get. Putting himself in that position would have been a horrible business decision. Also, i know you watch knick games and it was obvious that most if not all of Lin's teammates loved him. He also showed good work ethic and was generally very humble. If your going to fish for comments and interpretations that show he might have an ego problem while ignoring the other 99.9% of his actions and words that would lead to believe something else you have an agenda.

lol whoa.. i wanted Lin back just as much as anyone!

And its simply not true when you say he would have had to sign a 1 year QO. He could have met with other teams, he could have not signed the offer and bought it back to NY and asked for a 4/25m deal from NY, the max they could pay him. He had a ton of options, saying he "HAD TO SIGN A 1 YEAR QO" with NY had he not signed with HOU is just flat out false. I'm not sure you understand how RFAgency works.

As for the team loving Lin, well JJ, Novak & Fields clearly were all close to him, but JJ & Fields are gone.

JR Smith openly talked about other guys in the locker room that played many years and never got the deal Lin was offered and how that creates jealousy. Melo himself called the contract "ridiculous"... I'm not fishing here at all, those are 2 key Knicks calling out Lin's contract. And Lin himself said his head got too big and he wasn't taking constructive criticism well. Don't see where i'm "fishing" here at all.

all that being said I wanted Lin back, and I think NY fans deserved to have him back, whether he turns into a bust or not.

TeamSeattle
10-02-2012, 11:15 AM
\

Hard to see how Lin's ego affected the locker room, the kid would always credit his team and deflect the spotlight to his players. If only more NBA players showed more humility like Lin, Duncan, Nash, Grant Hill, Durant, etc, the League wouldn't be seen as a bunch of wannabe tatted out-weed smoking thugs.

Yea the NY media tried to smear the kid saying him and his agent played the knicks in that last inflated year of his contract; but then the Rockets did the same thing in acquiring Asik, so it was all lies. I supported the kid from the get go and know 4 a fact he will be really good in the future. I luv the part about weed thugs man, cuz people like watching jack*** athletes.

Da Knicks
10-02-2012, 11:25 AM
BYE LIN!!! Your run was great to bring more fans to watch the league but i will take Felton, Kidd, Pablo over you any day of the week. The potential was huge but this team is built to win now and needed a pass first pg not a another shooter.

ewing
10-02-2012, 12:23 PM
lol whoa.. i wanted Lin back just as much as anyone!

And its simply not true when you say he would have had to sign a 1 year QO. He could have met with other teams, he could have not signed the offer and bought it back to NY and asked for a 4/25m deal from NY, the max they could pay him. He had a ton of options, saying he "HAD TO SIGN A 1 YEAR QO" with NY had he not signed with HOU is just flat out false. I'm not sure you understand how RFAgency works.

As for the team loving Lin, well JJ, Novak & Fields clearly were all close to him, but JJ & Fields are gone.

JR Smith openly talked about other guys in the locker room that played many years and never got the deal Lin was offered and how that creates jealousy. Melo himself called the contract "ridiculous"... I'm not fishing here at all, those are 2 key Knicks calling out Lin's contract. And Lin himself said his head got too big and he wasn't taking constructive criticism well. Don't see where i'm "fishing" here at all.

all that being said I wanted Lin back, and I think NY fans deserved to have him back, whether he turns into a bust or not.


As I understand it: The Knicks were required to tender Lin a qualifying offer so he would be a restricted free agent. If they did not he would have been unrestricted

If Lin comes back to the knicks without a offer sheet the Knicks have him locked up for the qualifying offer. I think they can re-negotiated a different deal if they wanted to but that clearly is not in the teams best interest.

Based on this Lin has to either put himself at the Knicks mercy after they told him to test the market or look for a smaller offer sheet. Lin did the only logical thing by signing the offer sheet

JR Smiths comments say nothing about Lin or how he fits. Guys get jealous b/c of money. Really? This is your evidence of a rift in the the locker room and that teammates don't like Lin. Also, how easy do you think it might have been for a reporter to goad a guy like JR into that type of comment.

Melo also called the contract "ridiculous". Again, "so what?" Maybe Melo knew the Knicks weren't going to match and was pissed about the back-loaded offer. Again his comment tells us nothing. Why would anyone care what Melo thinks of J Lin contract so long as they make the Knicks better?

As for Lin i believe the article you are talking about is one where Lin said after Linsanity with all the props he got he was a little taken aback when he got publicly criticized by NY fans and media. Again so what? Everything i read about Lin work ethic and coachability are good. Even if he has a big ego off the court, which i doubt, i don't care.

Like i said before from what we know about Lin he does not appears to be an ego problem or a hard teammate to get a long with.

ManningToTyree
10-02-2012, 12:46 PM
Of course it was. They were set to match until the offer increased at the last minute. I don't agree with it, but money was clearly the reason.

NYY09
10-02-2012, 12:50 PM
What else were they supposed to say? and financially, it is a terrible deal. Unfortunately the truth will be unbeknownst to all and the speculation will continue in ad nauseam...

nycericanguy
10-02-2012, 01:06 PM
Of course it was. They were set to match until the offer increased at the last minute. I don't agree with it, but money was clearly the reason.

They were prepared to pay Nash & Lin well over $15m in year 3 of their deals.

They supposedly were "easily" going to match Lin at 3/19m. then all of a sudden 3/25 became a no no? Even with Nash and his $10m+ off the books?' Even Fields walking saved them at least $2-3m.

Sorry but this was not all financial at all, i'm sure finances had something to do with it, but clearly something else was going on behind the scenes.

ManningToTyree
10-02-2012, 01:20 PM
They were prepared to pay Nash & Lin well over $15m in year 3 of their deals.

They supposedly were "easily" going to match Lin at 3/19m. then all of a sudden 3/25 became a no no? Even with Nash and his $10m+ off the books?' Even Fields walking saved them at least $2-3m.

Sorry but this was not all financial at all, i'm sure finances had something to do with it, but clearly something else was going on behind the scenes.

six million is a big difference. I truly think at that point they felt getting Felton was better value then breaking the bank for Lin. Was Dolan pissed at Lin for the offer increase? probably. But I still think it came down to the cap situation moving forward.

John Walls Era
10-02-2012, 01:24 PM
yet most analysts, and players who face him disagree. Rubio is already one of the better defenders on the PG level in the NBA. Fact.

btw, Varejao is an elite defender as well.

Before the injury...

John Walls Era
10-02-2012, 01:26 PM
I think someone said win now and pass first point guard... Then they mention Felolton.

ewing
10-02-2012, 02:39 PM
six million is a big difference. I truly think at that point they felt getting Felton was better value then breaking the bank for Lin. Was Dolan pissed at Lin for the offer increase? probably. But I still think it came down to the cap situation moving forward.


The cap situation is the same with or without Lin. The only thing that changes is the amount of tax they have to pay

Hawkeye15
10-02-2012, 02:44 PM
Before the injury...

Knee injuries to 21 year old, 185 lb kids are nothing like they were 10-20 years ago.

Hawkeye15
10-02-2012, 02:51 PM
so hes not an elite player? he only avg 18+ as the number one option on his team since he went to ATL and lead them to the playoffs the past 5 season but he isnt elite? you can make an argument about JJ being an elite SG wayyyyyy before you say rubio is an eilte defender RIGHT NOW, nvm potential. your such a homer and have your teams jockstrap so far up your nose its effecting your vision.

we have been through this. No, Joe Johnson, the incredible shrinking playoff man, is not elite. In the weakest position in the NBA, he would be hard pressed to be top 5 at the position.

I am not the only one who claims Rubio is an elite defender. In fact, you are in the minority if you don't recognize him as an excellent defender. It's the strongest part of his game.

AddiX
10-02-2012, 03:33 PM
we have been through this. No, Joe Johnson, the incredible shrinking playoff man, is not elite. In the weakest position in the NBA, he would be hard pressed to be top 5 at the position.

I am not the only one who claims Rubio is an elite defender. In fact, you are in the minority if you don't recognize him as an excellent defender. It's the strongest part of his game.

Joe Johnson isn't elite yet Kevin love is? JJ when he was healthy, defended great, created for himself and balled hard, last few years his playoffs been bad stst wise, before thst he had some great games in the playoffs.

Yu also need to factor in who he had on his team Vs the teams he played against. In the playoffs wood sons system got exposed.

But he also lead ATl to the playoffs and even got to the 2nd rnd. Which is doing a lot more than love has for his team.

jam
10-02-2012, 04:32 PM
Thanks for backing this up with facts as well.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm:


Shooting is his biggest weakness, which is why he barely shoots. If he can work on his shooting like Jason Kidd did, he will be just fine...****, he will be fine even if he never does find a jump shot. He is an elite defender, and has the vision and passing ability to lead the league in assists for multiple years.

jam
10-02-2012, 04:34 PM
Are you asking me for the stats to back up Rubio's defense? Uh, no problem.

Yeah man, that stat line is really amazing. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:

Hawkeye15
10-02-2012, 04:48 PM
Joe Johnson isn't elite yet Kevin love is? JJ when he was healthy, defended great, created for himself and balled hard, last few years his playoffs been bad stst wise, before thst he had some great games in the playoffs.

Yu also need to factor in who he had on his team Vs the teams he played against. In the playoffs wood sons system got exposed.

But he also lead ATl to the playoffs and even got to the 2nd rnd. Which is doing a lot more than love has for his team.

Look at the help Joe Johnson has played with in Atlanta. He wasn't even the teams best player. He regresses in the playoffs yearly, to an average player basically, and with a career PER of 16.4, peak at 19.5, that hardly suggests an elite player at all. His PER of 13.8 in the playoffs is atrocious for a so called "elite" player.

I don't think you would find a single GM or coach that would take Joe Johnson over Kevin Love. I mean, are every single sports site, media outlet, and fan board wrong when they rank Love at least 10-20 spots above JJ?

Hawkeye15
10-02-2012, 04:49 PM
Yeah man, that stat line is really amazing. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:

flip back a few pages, you will get your answer...

ManningToTyree
10-02-2012, 04:59 PM
The cap situation is the same with or without Lin. The only thing that changes is the amount of tax they have to pay

I thought it would have prevented us from using the mid level with the new CBA? Wouldn't we be restricted to minimum signings?

The goods
10-02-2012, 05:10 PM
Does he make the franchise money? Yes but that doesn't help the cap space and signing other good players, I still think lin is overrated, but we'll see this year.

heyman321
10-02-2012, 05:50 PM
six million is a big difference. I truly think at that point they felt getting Felton was better value then breaking the bank for Lin. Was Dolan pissed at Lin for the offer increase? probably. But I still think it came down to the cap situation moving forward.

6 million is not a big difference lol. If luxury hit made that 12 million, that is still peanuts in James Dolan's pockets.

John Walls Era
10-02-2012, 11:49 PM
Does he make the franchise money? Yes but that doesn't help the cap space and signing other good players, I still think lin is overrated, but we'll see this year.

No he really doesnt, not even close per year. But Jalen Rose and Eddy Curry did as a Knick.

KnickaBocka.44
10-02-2012, 11:58 PM
6 million is not a big difference lol. If luxury hit made that 12 million, that is still peanuts in James Dolan's pockets.

This is the part people misinterpret when talking about the luxury tax hit with Lin if the Knicks would have re-signed him. In the third year of his contract, in which he would have been paid $15 million, the Knicks would be $15-25 million over the cap which means they would pay $3.25 for every dollar they are over the cap. In addition, they would be repeat offenders at that point, bringing their tax rate to $4.25 for every dollar they are over. At that rate Lin's $15 million contract, for that season alone, could actually cost Dolan upwards of $75 million. Lin brings in a lot of money but not enough to warrant that kind of expense.

MetroMan
10-03-2012, 12:31 AM
lin, the turn over machine!

jam
10-03-2012, 12:51 AM
flip back a few pages, you will get your answer...

:facepalm: X 10

You got nothin and everybody knows it. :)

jam
10-03-2012, 12:53 AM
6 million is not a big difference lol. If luxury hit made that 12 million, that is still peanuts in James Dolan's pockets.

You're missing the point. Morey and Alexander took Dolan to school and Dolan was left with nothing besides egg on his face (and who knows what else).

This is all ex-post facto rationalization of the fact that the Knicks backcourt is garbage once again.

Blitzace137
10-03-2012, 01:49 AM
I'm still pissed about that **** too.

lol I remember this a bunch of us were up late the day before the deadline****** Andy said he had a source we signed Lin got happy for no reason lol.

Blitzace137
10-03-2012, 01:53 AM
Rubio is a solid defender and for him to say "he can't go left," speaks volume to Lin's game. How can a point guard in the NBA not be able to go left. That sounds ridiculous to me. I think he has the ability to get to the rim against poor defenders like Fisher and Calderon as we have seen. At the end of the day he's a 2 guard in a pg's body and he's still a slightly below average player.

Edit: Rubio is 1000x better than Lin. He's been playing pro ball since 14 and he has a grasp of the game better than seasoned veterans. I wouldn't even dare compare Rubio to Lin. It's blasphemy.

I think Lin actually improved a lot going left based on the videos I saw him in during the off-season. He hired a skills coach. Kid puts in work lives in the gym nobody can deny that. How much he improved we'll see next season.

biglove44
10-03-2012, 02:09 AM
As I understand it: The Knicks were required to tender Lin a qualifying offer so he would be a restricted free agent. If they did not he would have been unrestricted

If Lin comes back to the knicks without a offer sheet the Knicks have him locked up for the qualifying offer. I think they can re-negotiated a different deal if they wanted to but that clearly is not in the teams best interest.

Based on this Lin has to either put himself at the Knicks mercy after they told him to test the market or look for a smaller offer sheet. Lin did the only logical thing by signing the offer sheet

JR Smiths comments say nothing about Lin or how he fits. Guys get jealous b/c of money. Really? This is your evidence of a rift in the the locker room and that teammates don't like Lin. Also, how easy do you think it might have been for a reporter to goad a guy like JR into that type of comment.

Melo also called the contract "ridiculous". Again, "so what?" Maybe Melo knew the Knicks weren't going to match and was pissed about the back-loaded offer. Again his comment tells us nothing. Why would anyone care what Melo thinks of J Lin contract so long as they make the Knicks better?

As for Lin i believe the article you are talking about is one where Lin said after Linsanity with all the props he got he was a little taken aback when he got publicly criticized by NY fans and media. Again so what? Everything i read about Lin work ethic and coachability are good. Even if he has a big ego off the court, which i doubt, i don't care.

Like i said before from what we know about Lin he does not appears to be an ego problem or a hard teammate to get a long with.

So much fail in this thread. This is accurate though.

Blitzace137
10-03-2012, 02:21 AM
This is the part people misinterpret when talking about the luxury tax hit with Lin if the Knicks would have re-signed him. In the third year of his contract, in which he would have been paid $15 million, the Knicks would be $15-25 million over the cap which means they would pay $3.25 for every dollar they are over the cap. In addition, they would be repeat offenders at that point, bringing their tax rate to $4.25 for every dollar they are over. At that rate Lin's $15 million contract, for that season alone, could actually cost Dolan upwards of $75 million. Lin brings in a lot of money but not enough to warrant that kind of expense.

This is all true but a smart GM would have found a way to make it work. Whether it be using the stretch provision in year 3 or trading Amare or even chandler if he shows signs of slowing down in year 3. In the end I think Dolan felt as though he was betrayed by Lin IMO and the organization decided to move on because they didn't think he was worth the investment. They should have never said they would match publicly which was another mistake.

I'll never understand why the knicks decided to play hard ball they could have just showed they wanted him from the very beginning offer 4 years 25-26 million which is not bad. People close to Lin said his heart was set on coming back to NY and if the Knicks made him a considerable offer it would be hard for him to turn down guaranteed money. Knicks are just a poorly run organization IMO that's why we lost Lin.

jam
10-03-2012, 02:51 AM
These are the knicks we're talking about.


This is all true but a smart GM would have found a way to make it work. Whether it be using the stretch provision in year 3 or trading Amare or even chandler if he shows signs of slowing down in year 3. In the end I think Dolan felt as though he was betrayed by Lin IMO and the organization decided to move on because they didn't think he was worth the investment. They should have never said they would match publicly which was another mistake.

I'll never understand why the knicks decided to play hard ball they could have just showed they wanted him from the very beginning offer 4 years 25-26 million which is not bad. People close to Lin said his heart was set on coming back to NY and if the Knicks made him a considerable offer it would be hard for him to turn down guaranteed money. Knicks are just a poorly run organization IMO that's why we lost Lin.

kblo247
10-03-2012, 05:59 AM
It's just odd to me, that after years of irresponsible spending, they balk at matching Lin's deal, which isn't half as bad as a good number of deals they gave out the past decade.

This and the fact is Lin could have made it right back. It's not irresponsible to pay a guy who can recoup your damn costs many fold.

Is irresponsible for teams to give guys like Amare, Pau, Boozer, Joe, Ray, Rashard, and the like max when they can't

Knicks21
10-03-2012, 06:06 AM
This and the fact is Lin could have made it right back. It's not irresponsible to pay a guy who can recoup your damn costs many fold.

Is irresponsible for teams to give guys like Amare, Pau, Boozer, Joe, Ray, Rashard, and the like max when they can't

There is more too the max than his production. W/o Amare, no melo, no tyson. Still D'antoni running a fast paced offence with D Lee being the focal point.

Still sucking, probably competing for a 10th spot in the East.

I do not believe it was irresponsible, the Knicks knew they were overpaying, but they had to.

Jesse2272
10-03-2012, 06:44 AM
I dont think it was financial at all

for obvious reason

JDolan turned sour on Lin for the last minute poison pill added Dolan that he believed Lin initiated last minute IMO

ewing
10-03-2012, 08:32 AM
This is all true but a smart GM would have found a way to make it work. Whether it be using the stretch provision in year 3 or trading Amare or even chandler if he shows signs of slowing down in year 3. In the end I think Dolan felt as though he was betrayed by Lin IMO and the organization decided to move on because they didn't think he was worth the investment. They should have never said they would match publicly which was another mistake.

I'll never understand why the knicks decided to play hard ball they could have just showed they wanted him from the very beginning offer 4 years 25-26 million which is not bad. People close to Lin said his heart was set on coming back to NY and if the Knicks made him a considerable offer it would be hard for him to turn down guaranteed money. Knicks are just a poorly run organization IMO that's why we lost Lin.


Yeah, i think Lin would have accepted 4 years at 26 (reports say he was disappointed that the Knicks did not offer him a deal) the Knicks told him to test the waters. You never know with that sort of thing though

nycericanguy
10-03-2012, 09:28 AM
Yeah, i think Lin would have accepted 4 years at 26 (reports say he was disappointed that the Knicks did not offer him a deal) the Knicks told him to test the waters. You never know with that sort of thing though

This I agree with. They should have offered him the 4/25m max. At the very least if he turns it down and signs elsewhere, then NY's front office doesn't look as bad and Lin just looks greedy and unappreciative.

Instead it now makes NY look bad the way they handled it.

BklynKnicks3
10-03-2012, 10:25 AM
Lin is nobody enough of this guy already. He 13/7/ alike 4 turnovers a game u cant pay him that kind of money when u can have much smarter pg play from a felton. This team is built to make a run now they dont have time to wait for lin to develop. The chance they win a chip is slim to none it would take a historic season from Melo and great team play all around but baring injuries this is a 50 win team