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JasonJohnHorn
09-27-2012, 08:56 PM
There's a thread going on asking if LBJ is the second best SF of all time. Some say he is already the best, others say Bird is, and some people have left me scratchign my head by saying that Dr. J is the best SF of all time. So I thought the best way to get the settled is to have a poll.

Please do share your thoughts.

I've included a short list of SF based off of this ranking that came out some time ago:

http://www.hoopsmanifesto.com/articles/basketball/top-10-nba-small-forwards-of-all-time.html


I just want to say that I feel like Baylor is under appreciated. That cat was amazing! And John Havlicek never gets the kind of respect he deserves.

b@llhog24
09-27-2012, 09:04 PM
Should have made the votes public.

JNoel
09-27-2012, 09:06 PM
Def between Bird, Dr. J, and Lebron

Andrew32
09-27-2012, 09:13 PM
Larry Legend but James is probably on pace to surpass him but it'll probably take him at a minimum 3-5 more years.

TheSource
09-27-2012, 09:20 PM
If Scottie Pippen were to have a team of his own, I feel he'd definitely be in the talks for best SF of all time. The only reason he's not in the talks now is because he was playing in the shadow of the greatest player of all time.

Depending on whether or not LeBron gets a few more rings to his name, I say he has a good chance in being better than Larry Bird.

b@llhog24
09-27-2012, 09:32 PM
If Scottie Pippen were to have a team of his own, I feel he'd definitely be in the talks for best SF of all time. The only reason he's not in the talks now is because he was playing in the shadow of the greatest player of all time.

Depending on whether or not LeBron gets a few more rings to his name, I say he has a good chance in being better than Larry Bird.

Nope.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-27-2012, 10:13 PM
Bird by just 1 vote?

BLASPHEMOUS!

Hotone1401
09-27-2012, 10:19 PM
:facepalm: to the 6 Heat fans

Rndy
09-27-2012, 10:22 PM
I think someday if he stays healthy Lebron will be the best. But to say he is right now is just unfair to the guys who played a long time. He hasn't had the career guys like Bird, Erving, and Pippen have had. He'll pass them someday but right now I don't think so. And I'm sure he'd agree.

I'm also not a fan of judging players in this era with other a different era. It's just too dam hard to say how good a guy like Bird or Irving would be if the 3 second rules and hand touch fouls and just ridiculous amount of fouls called in general.

TheSource
09-27-2012, 10:33 PM
Nope.

He'd be able to produce a couple of rings, he'd be averaging more points and have more shot opportunities than he did with Chicago and would still be the great defender he is (best defender at the SF position?).

What would separate him from Bird at that point?

b@llhog24
09-27-2012, 11:31 PM
He'd be able to produce a couple of rings,

His team would have to be stacked.


he'd be averaging more points and have more shot opportunities

than he did with Chicago and would still be the great defender he is (best defender at the SF position?).

What would separate him from Bird at that point?

We've seen Pippen as the 'guy' before though, and that version is still inferior to Bird so I honestly don't see the debate.

Hawkeye15
09-28-2012, 01:07 AM
Right now? Larry Legend. In 5 years? LeBron.

sixer04fan
09-28-2012, 01:09 AM
right now? Larry legend. In 5 years? Lebron.

+1

amos1er
09-28-2012, 01:11 AM
It's basically between Lebron and Bird. The more interesting question should be what does Lebron need to pass Bird.

Personally, I would say that either 2 more titles and 1 more MVP or 3 more titles and no more MVP's should do it.

Hawkeye15
09-28-2012, 01:19 AM
It's basically between Lebron and Bird. The more interesting question should be what does Lebron need to pass Bird.

Personally, I would say that either 2 more titles and 1 more MVP or 3 more titles and no more MVP's should do it.

I don't even know if he needs more then a single title, his numbers, and defense are already better. Another MVP and title would secure it imo.

PurpleJesus
09-28-2012, 01:45 AM
Is there a doctor in the house?

amos1er
09-28-2012, 01:52 AM
I don't even know if he needs more then a single title, his numbers, and defense are already better. Another MVP and title would secure it imo.

For sure his defense is better, but his overall numbers aren't that much better for me to give him a significant edge. Bird also didn't join a super team to win his titles. Bird in his prime was a statistical monster...I honestly don't know if Lebron had a better year that this:


30 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 53% FG, 40% 3PT, 92% FT

.608 TS%, .556 eFG%, .243 WS/48

If Lebron won his title on a conventional "non superteam" I might agree with you. But since he decided to team up with Wade and Bosh I have to handicap him a bit...thats why I said 2 more titles and 1 MVP or 3 titles and no more MPV's.

You also have to take competition into account. Lebron didn't have to face any great rival in the finals yet nor has he had an opponent as great as the showtime Lakers or even the the 81 Sixers for that matter. The 80's were far more competitive than the current era and therefore the degree of difficulty in winning a title must be taken into account. The 2012 playoff match ups that the Heat went through to win their title would have been a cake walk for most of Birds Celtic teams in the 80's. In addition, Bird didn't have teammates as good as Wade and Bosh. Therefore Lebron's one title isn't worth as much as one of Larry's.

I give Lebron credit for being the slightly better individual talent statistically and defensively and have weighed that into my assessment that he would need either 2 more titles and 1 MVP or 3 titles and no more MVP's.

Hawkeye15
09-28-2012, 01:56 AM
If Lebron won his title on a conventional "non superteam" I might agree with you. But since he decided to team up with Wade and Bosh I have to handicap him a bit...thats why I said 2 more titles and 1 MVP or 3 titles and no more MPV's.

And therein lies my problem with Kobe, Bird, Magic, or Duncan fans screaming loyalty.

Riddle me this. If LeBron came into the league and his GM got him comparable talent to the following, would he have left?:

Dennis Johnson
Danny Ainge
Cedric Maxwell
Robert Parish
Kevin McHale
Bill Walton

I also want to ask Laker fans this, who make your ridiculous claim. Are you ready for all the **** you will get when you win or lose with a top 3, 5, 20, 20 player this season? Because you were more than willing to whine about it the other way around. Apparently being drafted into a perfect situation makes it okay, versus SEEKING a great situation.

Hypocricy at its finest.

amos1er
09-28-2012, 02:11 AM
And therein lies my problem with Kobe, Bird, Magic, or Duncan fans screaming loyalty.

Riddle me this. If LeBron came into the league and his GM got him comparable talent to the following, would he have left?:

Dennis Johnson
Danny Ainge
Cedric Maxwell
Robert Parish
Kevin McHale
Bill Walton

I also want to ask Laker fans this, who make your ridiculous claim. Are you ready for all the **** you will get when you win or lose with a top 3, 5, 20, 20 player this season? Because you were more than willing to whine about it the other way around. Apparently being drafted into a perfect situation makes it okay, versus SEEKING a great situation.

Hypocricy at its finest.

Strawman argument...I thought we were debating Bird and Lebron, not Kobe and Lebron.

But I will answer your question.

It depends on how the Lakers might lose. Remember, if they make it to the finals and lose to Miami in a 7 game hard fought series with out HCA it won't be such a failure as Miami has gotten even stronger than last year and it's much easier for them to secure HCA in the east than it is for the Lakers in the west. If the Lakers lose to OKC in the WCF or to Miami in 5 or less, due to Kobe shooting them out of the series or some other blunder, than it is a failure for sure.

Remember, Lebron didn't have to go to Miami to form a "superteam"...he could have easily gone to Chicago or NY and he still would have been on a good team. It was his choice to go for overkill and therefore we have to account for that degree of difficulty or lack there of when assessing his legacy and comparing him to other greats.

And in answer to your question, no he probably would not have left and if he still did then it would be a supreme failure.

Remember, its the greatness of ones opponents that makes one truly great.

naps
09-28-2012, 02:41 AM
Ofcourse Larry Bird for now but barring any injury it'll be LeBron James without a doubt in a few years. LeBron's defensive impact has already provided him with an edge over Bird.

ciaban
09-28-2012, 03:08 AM
LBJ isn't right now, someday maybe.

My main problem with this discussion is the position it self, most other potions are defined, there were several great centers the best is probably Kareem, though Russel was probably the best Defensive center and there are other guys deserving of consideration, with shooting gaurds it's the same thing, it goes MJ, Kobe, everyone else.

The problem with the 3 is that it is such a multidimensional position. You have guys like Durrant who is a straight up shooter, and guys like melo and lbj that are slashers, some like Ron Artest will get their points by banging bodies. When you ask who is the greatest small forward, you really have to break it down into other parts of the game. Then you have guys like Roddman, who wasn't a scorer as much, but was maybe the greatest rebounding forward of all time, and was tenacious on defense. Which got him to the hall of fame.

So when you ask who is the greatest 3 of all time you should ask who was the best at the different styles of the position

mngopher35
09-28-2012, 03:10 AM
First of all who cares how they ended up on their respective teams, the greats are almost always on stacked teams. For you to claim Lebron is less of a player because he left via free agency instead of being handed a great team off the bat is a little ridiculous. You can dislike him for this, but dont discredit his game because the talent around him isnt better than what Bird had. Also you say take context of the talent he played against but fail to mention this amazing support he had was injured for part of the playoffs and he stepped up big time.

Also I think agree that Bird has had the best regular season between the two, at least numbers wise. Lebron however has had the best overall season between the two IMO.

27.1 pts 7.9 rbs 6.2 ast .605 ts% 30.7 PER .298 WS/48
Playoffs
30.3 pts 9.7 rbs 5.6 ast .576 ts% 30.3 PER .284 WS/48

Along with this he had elite defense and won MVP and Finals MVP.

Overall I think he still has a ways to go before passing Larry but I think he is showing he can be just as dominant in his peak. The question is can he maintain/improve from last year.

ciaban
09-28-2012, 03:18 AM
Strawman argument...I thought we were debating Bird and Lebron, not Kobe and Lebron.

But I will answer your question.

It depends on how the Lakers might lose. Remember, if they make it to the finals and lose to Miami in a 7 game hard fought series with out HCA it won't be such a failure as Miami has gotten even stronger than last year and it's much easier for them to secure HCA in the east than it is for the Lakers in the west. If the Lakers lose to OKC in the WCF or to Miami in 5 or less, due to Kobe shooting them out of the series or some other blunder, than it is a failure for sure.

Remember, Lebron didn't have to go to Miami to form a "superteam"...he could have easily gone to Chicago or NY and he still would have been on a good team. It was his choice to go for overkill and therefore we have to account for that degree of difficulty or lack there of when assessing his legacy and comparing him to other greats.

And in answer to your question, no he probably would not have left and if he still did then it would be a supreme failure.

Remember, its the greatness of ones opponents that makes one truly great.
OKC is super team, look at who they have! If this team came together through free agency we would call it a super team. They are pretty good.

Also, had he gone to Chi and wade wanted to come home and went with him, wouldn't that be just as much of a super team? If he had gone to the knicks with Stoudomire and someone else wouldn't that be a super team?

How is this title tainted? Is it his fault that he couldn't get anyone to come to Cleveland? or that after coming into the league he made his team so much better that they didn't have high enough draft picks to get the premier talent at the top of the draft? Whats the difference between a GM building a super team through the draft and trades like in Seattle/OKC or the players doing it themselves?

BTW i don't like LBJ i am not a heat fan, i am just saying.

Vinny642
09-28-2012, 03:28 AM
Old *** list but I think Bron will be the best but not yet

MagicBucsSox
09-28-2012, 03:29 AM
This is definately a racial thing. Lebron vs bird is a joke. Lebron would embarrass the guy in the court.

John Walls Era
09-28-2012, 03:44 AM
Lebron never won as Da Man. He had a 33 year old Ben Wallace and failed... enough said. So he can't possibly be first right? :laugh:

Hawkeye15
09-28-2012, 04:03 AM
Strawman argument...I thought we were debating Bird and Lebron, not Kobe and Lebron.


I didn't care if you answered my question, it was actually a statement for you, and the rest of the complete Kobe/Laker homers.

NYKalltheway
09-28-2012, 10:33 AM
Larry Bird
Dominique Wilkins
Elgin Baylor
Rick Barry (not really a SF though)
Scottie Pippen
Julius Erving (not really a SF though)
John Havlicek (not really a SF though)
the rest

Pierzynski4Prez
09-28-2012, 10:50 AM
If Scottie Pippen were to have a team of his own, I feel he'd definitely be in the talks for best SF of all time. The only reason he's not in the talks now is because he was playing in the shadow of the greatest player of all time.

Depending on whether or not LeBron gets a few more rings to his name, I say he has a good chance in being better than Larry Bird.

Pippin wouldn't have ever become as good as he was without playing/practicing with Jordan though either.

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 10:55 AM
This is definately a racial thing. Lebron vs bird is a joke. Lebron would embarrass the guy in the court.

You can only compare guys against the guys they played against. Everything else is conjecture.

What is not conjecture is that Bird rose to the challenge - by the likes of Magic, Erving, Jordan, etc. and didn't fold and crap his pants like LBJ has in 3 of the last 5 years in the playoffs. Bird in 1980-1987 played at a level LBJ has not as of yet played at.

It's nice to be an athletic freak, it's better to be a better shooter, passer, and leader.

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 10:58 AM
Larry Bird
Dominique Wilkins
Elgin Baylor
Rick Barry (not really a SF though)
Scottie Pippen
Julius Erving (not really a SF though)
John Havlicek (not really a SF though)
the rest

Wilkins sucked as I proved in spades last year to your chagrin, drop him off that list.

Barry was a selfish jerk - move down

How is Erving not a SF? What was he a PF? Please.

Havlicek was not a PF, and while he played some #2, he played it more on the offensive side, because any athletic #2 would blow by him.

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 11:02 AM
Havlicek underrated? I don't think so.

He was this:

1. greatest sixth man in NBA history
2. very fine defender (but not against stud PF's or very quick SG's (after his first 5 years)
3. very long career
4. a very good passer
5. a volume shooter with meh FG% even in his day.

He's generally listed in the back end of the 20's all time, and that's about right. If you don't know the guys from his era, he's underrated, if you do, he fits in just fine.

Pierzynski4Prez
09-28-2012, 11:10 AM
You can only compare guys against the guys they played against. Everything else is conjecture.

What is not conjecture is that Bird rose to the challenge - by the likes of Magic, Erving, Jordan, etc. and didn't fold and crap his pants like LBJ has in 3 of the last 5 years in the playoffs. Bird in 1980-1987 played at a level LBJ has not as of yet played at.

It's nice to be an athletic freak, it's better to be a better shooter, passer, and leader.

:clap:

MintBerryCrunch
09-28-2012, 11:10 AM
As of now it's Larry, but when all is said and done, it'll be Bron

ZHawk1123
09-28-2012, 11:20 AM
Everyone just do me a favor and look at Larry Bird's statistics and achievements and then don't say anything.

AP=MVP
09-28-2012, 11:25 AM
The LeBron super-team **** is such a joke. Bird had a top-3 all-time PF, a top-10 or 15 center, and one of the top defensive guards of all-time. Cleveland was not getting him help so he had to go somewhere else and why would you not want to play with 2 of your best friends in South Beach.

Lets look at all the top players in NBA history and their supporting cast.
Bird - Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, Bill Walton
Magic - Kareem, James Worthy, Bob McAdoo
Wilt - Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Gail Goodrich
Dr. J- Moses Malone, Bob McAdoo, Charles Barkley
Kobe- Shaq, Pau Gasol, Karl Malone, Gary Payton
Jordan - Pippen, Rodman
Lebron - Wade, Bosh

Face it, the top players always have greatness around then too.

AP=MVP
09-28-2012, 11:28 AM
^^^ With that being said my list is

1. Bird
2. LeBron
3. Baylor
4. Dr. J
5. Havlicek
6. Pippen
7. Barry
8. Nique
9. Big Game James
10. English

Heatcheck
09-28-2012, 11:34 AM
For sure his defense is better, but his overall numbers aren't that much better for me to give him a significant edge. Bird also didn't join a super team to win his titles. Bird in his prime was a statistical monster...I honestly don't know if Lebron had a better year that this:


30 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 53% FG, 40% 3PT, 92% FT

.608 TS%, .556 eFG%, .243 WS/48

If Lebron won his title on a conventional "non superteam" I might agree with you. But since he decided to team up with Wade and Bosh I have to handicap him a bit...thats why I said 2 more titles and 1 MVP or 3 titles and no more MPV's.

You also have to take competition into account. Lebron didn't have to face any great rival in the finals yet nor has he had an opponent as great as the showtime Lakers or even the the 81 Sixers for that matter. The 80's were far more competitive than the current era and therefore the degree of difficulty in winning a title must be taken into account. The 2012 playoff match ups that the Heat went through to win their title would have been a cake walk for most of Birds Celtic teams in the 80's. In addition, Bird didn't have teammates as good as Wade and Bosh. Therefore Lebron's one title isn't worth as much as one of Larry's.

I give Lebron credit for being the slightly better individual talent statistically and defensively and have weighed that into my assessment that he would need either 2 more titles and 1 MVP or 3 titles and no more MVP's.

He was already on one.

Heatcheck
09-28-2012, 11:36 AM
Larry Bird
Dominique Wilkins
Elgin Baylor
Rick Barry (not really a SF though)
Scottie Pippen
Julius Erving (not really a SF though)
John Havlicek (not really a SF though)
the rest


As one dimensional as it gets.

Lakerfan In NY
09-28-2012, 11:44 AM
The LeBron super-team **** is such a joke. Bird had a top-3 all-time PF, a top-10 or 15 center, and one of the top defensive guards of all-time. Cleveland was not getting him help so he had to go somewhere else and why would you not want to play with 2 of your best friends in South Beach.

Lets look at all the top players in NBA history and their supporting cast.
Bird - Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, Bill Walton
Magic - Kareem, James Worthy, Bob McAdoo
Wilt - Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Gail Goodrich
Dr. J- Moses Malone, Bob McAdoo, Charles Barkley
Kobe- Shaq, Pau Gasol, Karl Malone, Gary Payton
Jordan - Pippen, Rodman
Lebron - Wade, Bosh

Face it, the top players always have greatness around then too.

Only difference is they didn't call everyother an arrange to play together so they can win.

SteBO
09-28-2012, 11:50 AM
Only difference is they didn't call everyother an arrange to play together so they can win.
True, but that hardly even matters at this point. LeBron's career isn't over yet and Bird was fortunate enough to be on a team that had HOF's galore.

Chronz
09-28-2012, 11:50 AM
In terms of peak ability, Bird himself has wondered if anyone has ever won in the fashion Bron just did. But because I'm the type to not put much stock in peer review ill go ahead and assume hes just being modest.

But really people, long term wise, we all know, all Bron has to do is sustain this level of play a few more years and Larrys in the rear view, Bird didn't last long at all and he didn't take care if his body.

Chronz
09-28-2012, 11:51 AM
Larry Bird
Dominique Wilkins
Elgin Baylor
Rick Barry (not really a SF though)
Scottie Pippen
Julius Erving (not really a SF though)
John Havlicek (not really a SF though)
the rest


As one dimensional as it gets.
Rick Barry, one dimensional?

WaltonSystem
09-28-2012, 12:12 PM
I know it's a crazy thought kids but there was an NBA before MJ.. Don't be afraid to look into the past.

Right now 21 votes for LBJ being the BEST SF of all time? Cmon Son. I love LeBron's game but It's Larry by a lot right now, LeBron MAY pass him later but he has much to do.

Heatcheck
09-28-2012, 12:13 PM
Rick Barry, one dimensional?
i didnt mean to bold barry, scuse me.

Heatcheck
09-28-2012, 12:16 PM
I know it's a crazy thought kids but there was an NBA before MJ.. Don't be afraid to look into the past.

Right now 21 votes for LBJ being the BEST SF of all time? Cmon Son. I love LeBron's game but It's Larry by a lot right now, LeBron MAY pass him later but he has much to do.

damn by a lot? really alot? they look pretty similar to me. what did larry accomlish that blows bron away?

WaltonSystem
09-28-2012, 12:22 PM
damn by a lot? really alot? they look pretty similar to me. what did larry accomlish that blows bron away?

It goes past the numbers, probably just something you had to see. I think the legacy had a lot to do with giving Bird the edge right now. People (Laker fans) hated the guy but they did respect him. Just looking at the numbers isn't enough, basketball then and now are very different.

Heatcheck
09-28-2012, 12:25 PM
who said anything about numbers? and i did watch larry play as a matter of fact. from your post it just seems you simply liked bird better.

And yes its very different, both for the better and the worst.

JordansBulls
09-28-2012, 12:26 PM
In terms of peak ability, Bird himself has wondered if anyone has ever won in the fashion Bron just did. But because I'm the type to not put much stock in peer review ill go ahead and assume hes just being modest.

But really people, long term wise, we all know, all Bron has to do is sustain this level of play a few more years and Larrys in the rear view, Bird didn't last long at all and he didn't take care if his body.

You are right, I don't think anyone else has ever won a title where two top 5 players in there own conference was out for the playoffs including one who was on the #1 seed.

bucketss
09-28-2012, 12:28 PM
Strawman argument...I thought we were debating Bird and Lebron, not Kobe and Lebron.

But I will answer your question.

It depends on how the Lakers might lose. Remember, if they make it to the finals and lose to Miami in a 7 game hard fought series with out HCA it won't be such a failure as Miami has gotten even stronger than last year and it's much easier for them to secure HCA in the east than it is for the Lakers in the west. If the Lakers lose to OKC in the WCF or to Miami in 5 or less, due to Kobe shooting them out of the series or some other blunder, than it is a failure for sure.

Remember, Lebron didn't have to go to Miami to form a "superteam"...he could have easily gone to Chicago or NY and he still would have been on a good team. It was his choice to go for overkill and therefore we have to account for that degree of difficulty or lack there of when assessing his legacy and comparing him to other greats.

And in answer to your question, no he probably would not have left and if he still did then it would be a supreme failure.

Remember, its the greatness of ones opponents that makes one truly great.

if we account for degree of difficulty than wouldn't it be lebrons advantage playing with scrubs for 7 years than having wade play one amazing season than having him hobbled and injured his second? lets consider that bird played with a more stacked team. also playing in chicago would have probably brought along bosh, rose is almost as good as wade plus they have a legit center in noah something miami is seriously missing.

bucketss
09-28-2012, 12:30 PM
You are right, I don't think anyone else has ever won a title where two top 5 players in there own conference was out for the playoffs including one who was on the #1 seed.

same 1# seed lebron dusted the previous year?

bdollhrt
09-28-2012, 12:45 PM
You are right, I don't think anyone else has ever won a title where two top 5 players in there own conference was out for the playoffs including one who was on the #1 seed.

Your mistaken, Im not making the claim so how can I be right, if you wish to argue the topic then take it straight to Bird, hes the one who said it. I'm the one not buying it.

Chronz
09-28-2012, 12:47 PM
You are right, I don't think anyone else has ever won a title where two top 5 players in there own conference was out for the playoffs including one who was on the #1 seed.

That was my post above, Im on my gals PC:



Your mistaken, Im not making the claim so how can I be right, if you wish to argue the topic then take it straight to Bird, hes the one who said it. I'm the one not buying it.

JordansBulls
09-28-2012, 01:17 PM
same 1# seed lebron dusted the previous year?

Not really. In 2011 both Boozer and Noah were playing hurt and in 2012 we had a healthy team with them. Bulls would have swept Miami last year even Hollinger admitted it.

Chronz
09-28-2012, 01:22 PM
Not really. In 2011 both Boozer and Noah were playing hurt and in 2012 we had a healthy team with them. Bulls would have swept Miami last year even Hollinger admitted it.

Noah was hurt these playoffs tho

bucketss
09-28-2012, 01:51 PM
Not really. In 2011 both Boozer and Noah were playing hurt and in 2012 we had a healthy team with them. Bulls would have swept Miami last year even Hollinger admitted it.

wade was playing banged up a iittle, ilgauskas,james jones, dampier all were too injured to step on the floor haslem just came off injury. miami would have won the ring in 2011 but lebron wasnt fatigued:rolleyes: see i can make excuses too.

SteBO
09-28-2012, 01:53 PM
Not really. In 2011 both Boozer and Noah were playing hurt and in 2012 we had a healthy team with them. Bulls would have swept Miami last year even Hollinger admitted it.
This is the funniest thing I've read in weeks.....I'm not even joking.

AntiG
09-28-2012, 01:56 PM
If Scottie Pippen were to have a team of his own, I feel he'd definitely be in the talks for best SF of all time. The only reason he's not in the talks now is because he was playing in the shadow of the greatest player of all time.

Depending on whether or not LeBron gets a few more rings to his name, I say he has a good chance in being better than Larry Bird.

LOL no

JordansBulls
09-28-2012, 02:00 PM
wade was playing banged up a iittle, ilgauskas,james jones, dampier all were too injured to step on the floor haslem just came off injury. miami would have won the ring in 2011 but lebron was fatigued:rolleyes: see i can make excuses too.

Lebron wasn't fatigued, Marion just locked him down in the finals. We are talking about a top 5 player in the league being injured who was the #1 seed.

bucketss
09-28-2012, 02:09 PM
rose is not a top 5 player.

KnicksorBust
09-28-2012, 06:29 PM
This isn't a debate yet. Bird.

DR_1
09-28-2012, 06:34 PM
:laugh: LeBron getting votes

SLY WILLIAMS
09-28-2012, 06:44 PM
Larry Bird who I consider the 2nd best player I eve saw play after MJ.

Then Lebron. All the rest are a ways below. I never saw Baylor play.

KnicksorBust
09-28-2012, 06:46 PM
Larry Bird who I consider the 2nd best player I eve saw play after MJ.

Then Lebron. All the rest are a ways below. I never saw Baylor play.

Magic and Kobe have both had better careers than Bird but I'm trolling bringing that up in here. :)

JasonJohnHorn
09-28-2012, 08:50 PM
I'm curious to see what the folks who voted for Baylor, Pippen and Barry have to say.

Baylor could flat out score. He is perhaps the best scorer on this list (though obviously there were more possesions back then) and he is also likely the best rebounder on this list (and even though there were more possessions back then, his rebounding numbers are still head-and-shoulders above anybody on this list).

And when it comes to Haveleck and Dr. J., I agree with those who are in the camp that they can be considers SG just as easily as SF, but as most people seem to rank them as SF I put them on the list. I mean, really, is there that much of a difference between a SF and a SG? The SG has more iin common with the SF than the PG, and the SF has more in commone with the SG than he does with the PF. They are wing players. When Jordan came back to play for Washington he moved to SF, and was there really that big a difference in the role he and Pippen played on Chicago? They both brought the ball. Jordan's game was influenced by Dr. J, and lets face it, lots of teams will play two SF or two SG at the same time. McGrady and Carter could both play both positions confortably. I think anybody who knows the game can recognize the similarities between the two positions. Putting a hard definition on the SF or SG position is more for casual fans to understand where guys are supposed to be on the court.

That said... I voted for LBJ on the assumption that he's going to continue to play at this level until he's at least 32. But I would not argue with somebody who picked Bird or Baylor. I do scratch my head at people who pick Dr. J though (in part because I think his ABA numbers are WAT inflated because he put them up in an inferior league).

And Chronz, I don't think it was that Bird didn't take care of his body, I think it was just that his body gave out on him. We see health problems in guys like Yao Ming and say: of course, the human body isn't supposed to be that big; but with a guy like Bird, his body is still a LOT bigger than the typical body and he's playing professional basketball for years... it's going to wear you down. Some people's body are more athletic and can handle it, but we've seen time and time again that guys who haven't even been in the league that long (Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Greg Oden, Ralph Sampson) face severe injuries and has their careers put on hold for a long time or are completely cut off. It is a mircale we don't see more cases like the Baron Davis knee-blow-out this season, or D-Rose's injury. These guys are all playing on borrowed time. Bird's back just caught up with him. I don't think it was a conditioning thing. Anyways... that's a big side note.


I seriously want to hear from the guys who voted for Baylor though.

Cal827
09-28-2012, 08:54 PM
Where the **** is Corey Maggette on this list?

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-28-2012, 08:58 PM
lol @ dr j.

Larry than Bron, altho i voted for Bron.

:)

Ebbs
09-28-2012, 09:11 PM
I'm not mad at anyone who chooses Bird but people sayiong there is no argument are off their rockers.

LeBron has played 9 seasons, and Bird has played 13. LeBron has 2 less finals appearances, 2 less titles and an equal number of MVP's.

Defensively LeBron is a no contest against Bird. As a playmaker it's close and LeBron is actually averaging more APG on a career basis. Bird was an incredible scorer and shooter but he had nowhere close to the athleticism or strength LBJ has.

LeBron's top 5 PER's: 28.1, 29.1, 30.7, 31.1, 31.7 (led league 5x in stat.)
Bird's top 5 PER's. 24.2, 25.6, 26.4, 26.5, 27.8 (lead league 2x in stat.)

(As a side note LeBrons 30.3 PER over this past post season and inhuman 37.4 in 08-09 absolutely smoke Birds post season highs of 23.9 and 26.3)

Ebbs
09-28-2012, 09:12 PM
This isn't a debate yet. Bird.

Disagree


:laugh: LeBron getting votes

You're being ignorant.

amos1er
09-28-2012, 09:22 PM
Disagree



You're being ignorant.

You actually think that Lebron's career is already better than Birds??? You do realize that most experts have bird at least top 7 of all time. So basically you are saying that Lebron is already a top 6 player of all time in your eyes.

See I told you guys that there were guys out there who actually believe this. And you say the Laker/Kobe fans are bad.

Avenged
09-28-2012, 09:24 PM
This is the funniest thing I've read in weeks.....I'm not even joking.

Lol but Hollinger said it!!

Ebbs
09-28-2012, 09:33 PM
You actually think that Lebron's career is already better than Birds??? You do realize that most experts have bird at least top 7 of all time. So basically you are saying that Lebron is already a top 6 player of all time in your eyes.

See I told you guys that there were guys out there who actually believe this. And you say the Laker/Kobe fans are bad.

Your not giving any justification of why not. You're just pointing your finger and saying no that's wrong...

ebbucsfan
09-28-2012, 10:05 PM
Put Larry Bird on those Cavs teams in his prime and he wouldn't have carried them like Lebron did...

TheLegend
09-28-2012, 10:13 PM
If Scottie Pippen were to have a team of his own, I feel he'd definitely be in the talks for best SF of all time. The only reason he's not in the talks now is because he was playing in the shadow of the greatest player of all time.

Depending on whether or not LeBron gets a few more rings to his name, I say he has a good chance in being better than Larry Bird.

Pippen isn't that kind a player. He's best suited as a sidekick. As the man, Pip is going to come up short. He's always been more comfortable playing the sidekick role. He's also never been a ISO type player that could break his man down. He's more of a facilitator and far more comfortable playing the "Robin" role.

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 10:20 PM
The LeBron super-team **** is such a joke. Bird had a top-3 all-time PF, a top-10 or 15 center, and one of the top defensive guards of all-time. Cleveland was not getting him help so he had to go somewhere else and why would you not want to play with 2 of your best friends in South Beach.

Lets look at all the top players in NBA history and their supporting cast.
Bird - Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, Bill Walton
Magic - Kareem, James Worthy, Bob McAdoo
Wilt - Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Gail Goodrich
Dr. J- Moses Malone, Bob McAdoo, Charles Barkley
Kobe- Shaq, Pau Gasol, Karl Malone, Gary Payton
Jordan - Pippen, Rodman
Lebron - Wade, Bosh

Face it, the top players always have greatness around then too.

Few have McHale cracking the top 7 PF's.

Parish was a top 15 Center, but Jabbar at him for breakfast. Parish couldn't hack Moses either, or Hakeem, or Robinson. Jeez.... that's not good.

DJ? Oh please, DJ was a very fine player - but do get some tape of him against Magic and Jordan - not so good.

Also Walton was a total retread, and had one pretty good year for the Celts.

Using rosters is a bit biased to 80's teams. There are 3 Celt, 4 Laker, 2 Piston, and 1 76'er team that might be able to claim they had the deepest teams of all time.

BTW, when did McAdoo play with Dr. J? Bobby Jones, Mo Cheeks are more like it.

Why are you listing McAdoo with Magic? He was never one of the top 3 Lakers in that time.

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 10:25 PM
In terms of peak ability, Bird himself has wondered if anyone has ever won in the fashion Bron just did. But because I'm the type to not put much stock in peer review ill go ahead and assume hes just being modest.

But really people, long term wise, we all know, all Bron has to do is sustain this level of play a few more years and Larrys in the rear view, Bird didn't last long at all and he didn't take care if his body.

Larry took care of himself fine by the standards of his day/state of medicine.

He was born with a condition where his spinal cord had much less room inside his spine to move then most - making him very susceptible to irritation and worse.

After he saw Magic and others getting into better shape he went into a heavy duty weight lifting program which irritated his spine basically on a permanent basis. He tried all sorts of cures and methods and lived through constant pain his last few years in the game.

TheLegend
09-28-2012, 10:25 PM
Not really. In 2011 both Boozer and Noah were playing hurt and in 2012 we had a healthy team with them. Bulls would have swept Miami last year even Hollinger admitted it.

Bulls would have swept the Heat last year? :facepalm:

You got a lot to learn dude.

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 10:28 PM
Put Larry Bird on those Cavs teams in his prime and he wouldn't have carried them like Lebron did...

Carried them to bad losses in the playoffs in 3 out of 5 years. Twice v Boston and once v Orlando. I mean kacked it.

Nobody that supports James wants to talk about the playoffs pre this year - that much is clear from reading these threads. For good reason.

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 10:30 PM
Rick Barry, one dimensional?

Barry could do a lot of things, he probably meant that Barry was a selfish player that failed to do things that could have elevated his teams and teammates - but failed to do so.

Barry is distinctly ahead of the Wilkins class of players for instance, but he's no Bird.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-28-2012, 11:09 PM
Put Larry Bird on those Cavs teams in his prime and he wouldn't have carried them like Lebron did...

Did Larry ever have a losing season? Did the Celtics have a good team the year before Larry? Did Larry carry a nothing Indiana State team? As a Knicks fan I hated Larry Bird but the people that actually watched him play in his prime know how good he was. Ask Jordan. Ask Magic. The guy could dominate a game without shooting and he was one of the clutchest shooters around. His passing was incredible and people sell him short as a defensive player.

Ebbs
09-29-2012, 01:18 AM
Carried them to bad losses in the playoffs in 3 out of 5 years. Twice v Boston and once v Orlando. I mean kacked it.

Nobody that supports James wants to talk about the playoffs pre this year - that much is clear from reading these threads. For good reason.

That's BS and frankly not true. Your talking about series not playoffs as a whole. The whole Boston was greatly exaggerated but whatever it is what it is.

IMO LeBron taking that garbage *** Cleveland team to the finals holds almost as much weight as this year.

You talk about his bad series in the post season but you fail to recognize his good ones. There were some classic series vs. the Wizards back in the day. No one forgets what he did to the Pistons and last year he was fantastic against the Bulls.

Also Wades performance this post season was not very good. Bosh was hurt and missed time. The LeBron having a ton of talent to win argument is BS when like someone previously stated no one wins on their own.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 02:49 AM
You actually think that Lebron's career is already better than Birds??? You do realize that most experts have bird at least top 7 of all time. So basically you are saying that Lebron is already a top 6 player of all time in your eyes.

See I told you guys that there were guys out there who actually believe this. And you say the Laker/Kobe fans are bad.

I don't need to give justification. My opinion is already validated by the majority. If you wan't to make a case otherwise...the burden of proof is on you.

Ebbs
09-29-2012, 03:06 AM
I don't need to give justification. My opinion is already validated by the majority. If you wan't to make a case otherwise...the burden of proof is on you.

Congrats you can follow the crowd blindly.

You still can't call out the minority without some substance.

naps
09-29-2012, 03:11 AM
Bulls would have swept Miami last year .

In your dreams?

naps
09-29-2012, 03:20 AM
Congrats you can follow the crowd blindly.

You still can't call out the minority without some substance.

He'll probably pull up some YouTube clips as substance :laugh2:

DanG
09-29-2012, 03:29 AM
Right now, it's Bird but probably in 2-4 years it's LeBron

Hawkeye15
09-29-2012, 03:44 AM
Carried them to bad losses in the playoffs in 3 out of 5 years. Twice v Boston and once v Orlando. I mean kacked it.

Nobody that supports James wants to talk about the playoffs pre this year - that much is clear from reading these threads. For good reason.

I respect you quite a bit. But you are nuts if you don't think Bron/Bird isn't already a topic to consider, and extremely nuts if you don't think Bron passes him in a couple years.

LeBron, previous to this season, had great playoff numbers.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 04:26 AM
Congrats you can follow the crowd blindly.

You still can't call out the minority without some substance.

I don't think you quite understand how this works. Since you are the one who disagrees with the majority opinion, it's you who is required to first come to the table with some sort of "substance". Again, let me reiterate, you are the one rejecting the general consensus. This thread is a poll after all and your opinion reflects the one that was voted to be the minority. the burden of proof therefore lies with you as I said in the previous post.

I am not "following the crowd blindly", I just happen to share their opinion.

Additionally, there have been numerous posts throughout this thread loaded with sufficient "substance" to merit the majority opinion. With that in mind, I really don't feel it's fair for you to burden me by asking me to personally rehash what was already said all over again when all you have to do is look through the thread yourself. Once you do, I can assure you will find more than enough of a compelling argument to justify why the majority of people originally voted in favor Bird over Lebron. If you still disagree, feel free to form your own conclusion that hopefully includes some vital information you feel was not brought to the table originally. The next logical step is then write a rebuttal. If you are then able to make a valid enough point in contradiction to the popular opinion through your rebuttal, I will then respond with the "substance" you are looking for.

I have a question for you? When the majority opinion elects a leader through the the democratic voting process our country was founded on, are they "following the crowd blindly too"? Do you consider anyone who votes in contrast to you to be following the crowd blindly? Isn't it possible that they simply agree with the opposing position? I could easily use your same logic back at you and say you are following the Lebron crowd blindly. I was simply pointing out the fact that the majority concurs with my opinion, not that I only agree because it's the majority.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 05:55 AM
He was already on one.

Bird never had anyone as good as Wade and Bosh. Though his team was deeper, but not enough to account for having a top 5 and a top 15-20 player at his side.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-29-2012, 06:03 AM
1. Bird
2. Lebron

amos1er
09-29-2012, 06:07 AM
if we account for degree of difficulty than wouldn't it be lebrons advantage playing with scrubs for 7 years than having wade play one amazing season than having him hobbled and injured his second? lets consider that bird played with a more stacked team. also playing in chicago would have probably brought along bosh, rose is almost as good as wade plus they have a legit center in noah something miami is seriously missing.

I'm talking about degree of difficulty while at the same time getting the job done. Bird went all the way with lesser talent against greater competition.

Any of Birds championship teams would have been able to make short work of the 2011 Mavs or the 2012 Thunder. Could you honestly say the same about Lebron's Heat vs. 81 Rockets/Sixers, 84 Lakers, or 86 Rockets? Bird never had a finals performance as bad as Lebron in 2011 or 2007, yet Lebron has never had as good a finals performance as Bird has against much greater opponents.

Bird: 1984 Finals MVP: 27.4 ppg, 14 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.1 spg against the Showtime Lakers.

Bird: 1986 Finals MVP: 24 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 9.5 apg (basically a tripple double) against a very solid Hakeem Olajuwon led Huston Rockets team that beat out the Showtime Lakers in the WCF.

Lebron 2012 Finals MVP: 28.6 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 7.4 apg, 1.6 spg against a very green OKC team with a top 5 and a top 15-20 player at his side.

Even when Bird lost in the finals twice to the Showtime Lakers, he never played as bad as Lebron did in the 2011 finals or the 2007 finals. Bird won his first title in his second year in the league against a great Moses Malone lead Rockets team, averaging 15 ppg, 15 rpg, 7 apg and 2.3 spg, so don't give me crap about how Lebron was young when he played in the 2007 finals.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 06:24 AM
I didn't care if you answered my question, it was actually a statement for you, and the rest of the complete Kobe/Laker homers.

What have I ever said that would lead you to believe that I am a complete/Kobe/Laker homer?

I have another question for you...

Why do you feel the need to constantly go out of your way to point out and scrutinize the flawed arguments that the so called "Kobephiles" make yet not ever once take the time to point out the flawed arguments the Lebronite/Kobe haters make? If you view your self as truly non-bias, then why not treat both sets of obnoxious posters equally.

While I don't actually view you as a "Kobe hater" per se as I've seen you actually make an effort to be fair and impartial during debates on a somewhat consistant basis. I do however feel there is some bias in your views due to the fact that you have a record of going out of your way to attack one side and not the other. Both posters are equally as obnoxious, yet the Kobephiles seem to bother you more for some reason...

Andrew32
09-29-2012, 06:31 AM
Both posters are equally as obnoxious, yet the Kobephiles seem to bother you more for some reason...

Moderators all have their own personality's.
You can't expect them to be perfect impartial robots... that is ridiculous.

Also two wrongs don't make a right.
If one murderer gets caught and arrested but the other one is let go in the process is that wrong?

You aren't gonna let the murderer go and say "you aren't a murderer" just because the other one got away.

Unless you are a "kobephile" you shouldn't be bothered by those type of posters being called out if they say ridiculous or obviously biased things.

If you have a problem with something someone posted just report it and move on or PM a moderator if it bothers you enough.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 07:02 AM
Moderators all have their own personality's.
You can't expect them to be perfect impartial robots... that is ridiculous.

Also two wrongs don't make a right.
If one murderer gets caught and arrested but the other one is let go in the process is that wrong?

You aren't gonna let the murderer go and say "you aren't a murderer" just because the other one got away.

Unless you are a "kobephile" you shouldn't be bothered by those type of posters being called out if they say ridiculous or obviously biased things.

If you have a problem with something someone posted just report it and move on or PM a moderator if it bothers you enough.

I don't really have a big problem with it, I just pointed it out because he referred to me as a "complete Kobe/Laker homer" in the previous post.

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 08:59 AM
That's BS and frankly not true. Your talking about series not playoffs as a whole. The whole Boston was greatly exaggerated but whatever it is what it is.

I danced around like an elf watching the Celts tie a big fat "loser" bow on James those two years. He was disgraceful in terms of leadership or heart. Go watch more tape.


You talk about his bad series in the post season but you fail to recognize his good ones.

I didn't fail anything. I'm arguing a point. I am only responsible for that, you want to counter, feel free.


There were some classic series vs. the Wizards back in the day. No one forgets what he did to the Pistons and last year he was fantastic against the Bulls.

He was very good in those. But, were they deciding Series?


Also Wades performance this post season was not very good. Bosh was hurt and missed time. The LeBron having a ton of talent to win argument is BS when like someone previously stated no one wins on their own.

Yes, James was immense last year, hands down the best player in the league. Now that he's taken care of that, which direction will he go in? That's the question. He's not going to win 7 titles or even 5. Wade is declining, 3-4 appear to be the max.

b@llhog24
09-29-2012, 09:03 AM
He'll probably pull up some YouTube clips as substance :laugh2:

:clap:


I don't think you quite understand how this works. Since you are the one who disagrees with the majority opinion, it's you who is required to first come to the table with some sort of "substance". Again, let me reiterate, you are the one rejecting the general consensus. This thread is a poll after all and your opinion reflects the one that was voted to be the minority. the burden of proof therefore lies with you as I said in the previous post.

I am not "following the crowd blindly", I just happen to share their opinion.

Additionally, there have been numerous posts throughout this thread loaded with sufficient "substance" to merit the majority opinion. With that in mind, I really don't feel it's fair for you to burden me by asking me to personally rehash what was already said all over again when all you have to do is look through the thread yourself. Once you do, I can assure you will find more than enough of a compelling argument to justify why the majority of people originally voted in favor Bird over Lebron. If you still disagree, feel free to form your own conclusion that hopefully includes some vital information you feel was not brought to the table originally. The next logical step is then write a rebuttal. If you are then able to make a valid enough point in contradiction to the popular opinion through your rebuttal, I will then respond with the "substance" you are looking for.

I have a question for you? When the majority opinion elects a leader through the the democratic voting process our country was founded on, are they "following the crowd blindly too"? Do you consider anyone who votes in contrast to you to be following the crowd blindly? Isn't it possible that they simply agree with the opposing position? I could easily use your same logic back at you and say you are following the Lebron crowd blindly. I was simply pointing out the fact that the majority concurs with my opinion, not that I only agree because it's the majority.

He's provided his opinion with plenty of substance.


I'm not mad at anyone who chooses Bird but people sayiong there is no argument are off their rockers.

LeBron has played 9 seasons, and Bird has played 13. LeBron has 2 less finals appearances, 2 less titles and an equal number of MVP's.

Defensively LeBron is a no contest against Bird. As a playmaker it's close and LeBron is actually averaging more APG on a career basis. Bird was an incredible scorer and shooter but he had nowhere close to the athleticism or strength LBJ has.

LeBron's top 5 PER's: 28.1, 29.1, 30.7, 31.1, 31.7 (led league 5x in stat.)
Bird's top 5 PER's. 24.2, 25.6, 26.4, 26.5, 27.8 (lead league 2x in stat.)

(As a side note LeBrons 30.3 PER over this past post season and inhuman 37.4 in 08-09 absolutely smoke Birds post season highs of 23.9 and 26.3)


That's BS and frankly not true. Your talking about series not playoffs as a whole. The whole Boston was greatly exaggerated but whatever it is what it is.

IMO LeBron taking that garbage *** Cleveland team to the finals holds almost as much weight as this year.

You talk about his bad series in the post season but you fail to recognize his good ones. There were some classic series vs. the Wizards back in the day. No one forgets what he did to the Pistons and last year he was fantastic against the Bulls.

Also Wades performance this post season was not very good. Bosh was hurt and missed time. The LeBron having a ton of talent to win argument is BS when like someone previously stated no one wins on their own.
.


I'm talking about degree of difficulty while at the same time getting the job done. Bird went all the way with lesser talent against greater competition.

Any of Birds championship teams would have been able to make short work of the 2011 Mavs or the 2012 Thunder. Could you honestly say the same about Lebron's Heat vs. 81 Rockets/Sixers, 84 Lakers, or 86 Rockets? Bird never had a finals performance as bad as Lebron in 2011 or 2007, yet Lebron has never had as good a finals performance as Bird has against much greater opponents.

Bird: 1984 Finals MVP: 27.4 ppg, 14 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.1 spg against the Showtime Lakers.

Bird: 1986 Finals MVP: 24 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 9.5 apg (basically a tripple double) against a very solid Hakeem Olajuwon led Huston Rockets team that beat out the Showtime Lakers in the WCF.

Lebron 2012 Finals MVP: 28.6 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 7.4 apg, 1.6 spg against a very green OKC team with a top 5 and a top 15-20 player at his side.

Even when Bird lost in the finals twice to the Showtime Lakers, he never played as bad as Lebron did in the 2011 finals or the 2007 finals. Bird won his first title in his second year in the league against a great Moses Malone lead Rockets team, averaging 15 ppg, 15 rpg, 7 apg and 2.3 spg, so don't give me crap about how Lebron was young when he played in the 2007 finals.

So title years are the only years that matter?


What have I ever said that would lead you to believe that I am a complete/Kobe/Laker homer?

I have another question for you...

Why do you feel the need to constantly go out of your way to point out and scrutinize the flawed arguments that the so called "Kobephiles" make yet not ever once take the time to point out the flawed arguments the Lebronite/Kobe haters make? If you view your self as truly non-bias, then why not treat both sets of obnoxious posters equally.

While I don't actually view you as a "Kobe hater" per se as I've seen you actually make an effort to be fair and impartial during debates on a somewhat consistant basis. I do however feel there is some bias in your views due to the fact that you have a record of going out of your way to attack one side and not the other. Both posters are equally as obnoxious, yet the Kobephiles seem to bother you more for some reason...

It's what happens when you root for the inferior player.

Heediot
09-29-2012, 09:18 AM
Bird, for now. LBJ will more than likely surpass him.

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 10:49 AM
Bird never had anyone as good as Wade and Bosh. Though his team was deeper, but not enough to account for having a top 5 and a top 15-20 player at his side.

I'm on your side with Bird, but McHale in his prime destroys Bosh - he's about the 35th best player of all time - and it's mostly due to his peak. Bosh isn't near that, and won't match that. McHale was a vastly better and more flexible defender, he was also a distinctly superior low post player - by a ton. Bosh's best 7 years will never touch McHale's - never. So far he hasn't done it.

McHale - Years WS/48 league rank (top 10 or better): 5, 5, 4, 4, 7

Bosh - None

SLY WILLIAMS
09-29-2012, 12:48 PM
You guys cant see what made Bird great in statistics. Watch the last 4 minutes of a close playoff game and you will see what made Bird great. The guy was the only one that could trash talk MJ and win. He would just find a way be it a steal, a pass or a great clutch shot. What made Larry a legend cant be debated via statistics. I literally hated the guy because he was so great and worse he was so clutch. It drove me crazy. He dominated the best of his time be it DrJ, Dominque, Worth, English, Dantley, etc. Guys like Parrish, Mchale, and Walton had some real special skills but they always knew Larry Bird was the man on the Celtics. I cant even compare Lebron because when it comes to late game pressure situations Larry may be the best player of all time.

IndyRealist
09-29-2012, 12:54 PM
If this wasn't Bird by a landslide PSD should be shut down.

Chronz
09-29-2012, 01:22 PM
He was already on one.

Bird never had anyone as good as Wade and Bosh. Though his team was deeper, but not enough to account for having a top 5 and a top 15-20 player at his side.
Bosh? Was that a typo?

Chronz
09-29-2012, 01:25 PM
if we account for degree of difficulty than wouldn't it be lebrons advantage playing with scrubs for 7 years than having wade play one amazing season than having him hobbled and injured his second? lets consider that bird played with a more stacked team. also playing in chicago would have probably brought along bosh, rose is almost as good as wade plus they have a legit center in noah something miami is seriously missing.

I'm talking about degree of difficulty while at the same time getting the job done. Bird went all the way with lesser talent against greater competition.

Any of Birds championship teams would have been able to make short work of the 2011 Mavs or the 2012 Thunder. Could you honestly say the same about Lebron's Heat vs. 81 Rockets/Sixers, 84 Lakers, or 86 Rockets? Bird never had a finals performance as bad as Lebron in 2011 or 2007, yet Lebron has never had as good a finals performance as Bird has against much greater opponents.

Bird: 1984 Finals MVP: 27.4 ppg, 14 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.1 spg against the Showtime Lakers.

Bird: 1986 Finals MVP: 24 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 9.5 apg (basically a tripple double) against a very solid Hakeem Olajuwon led Huston Rockets team that beat out the Showtime Lakers in the WCF.

Lebron 2012 Finals MVP: 28.6 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 7.4 apg, 1.6 spg against a very green OKC team with a top 5 and a top 15-20 player at his side.

Even when Bird lost in the finals twice to the Showtime Lakers, he never played as bad as Lebron did in the 2011 finals or the 2007 finals. Bird won his first title in his second year in the league against a great Moses Malone lead Rockets team, averaging 15 ppg, 15 rpg, 7 apg and 2.3 spg, so don't give me crap about how Lebron was young when he played in the 2007 finals.
Lmfao, so the thunder were green, but the injury ravaged rockets were solid and in no way newbies. I'm betting the sub .500 rockets were sleeping giants as well

todu82
09-29-2012, 01:52 PM
Larry Bird

Ebbs
09-29-2012, 02:57 PM
I don't really have a big problem with it, I just pointed it out because he referred to me as a "complete Kobe/Laker homer" in the previous post.

You're missing the point. You made it out like I was some delusional fan boy for putting LeBron in the discussion with Bird. You gave no reasoning and I did supply support for my claim.

JordansBulls
09-29-2012, 03:36 PM
I'm not mad at anyone who chooses Bird but people sayiong there is no argument are off their rockers.

LeBron has played 9 seasons, and Bird has played 13. LeBron has 2 less finals appearances, 2 less titles and an equal number of MVP's.

Defensively LeBron is a no contest against Bird. As a playmaker it's close and LeBron is actually averaging more APG on a career basis. Bird was an incredible scorer and shooter but he had nowhere close to the athleticism or strength LBJ has.

LeBron's top 5 PER's: 28.1, 29.1, 30.7, 31.1, 31.7 (led league 5x in stat.)
Bird's top 5 PER's. 24.2, 25.6, 26.4, 26.5, 27.8 (lead league 2x in stat.)

(As a side note LeBrons 30.3 PER over this past post season and inhuman 37.4 in 08-09 absolutely smoke Birds post season highs of 23.9 and 26.3)

Lebron did this in a shortened season and this when nearly every star out of there primes including the playoffs where 2 of the top 5 players in the league were out. Not to mention there were many more elite superstars in Bird's era compared to now.

Chronz
09-29-2012, 03:37 PM
Barry could do a lot of things, he probably meant that Barry was a selfish player that failed to do things that could have elevated his teams and teammates - but failed to do so.
That would make alot more sense even though its not close to what he said.



Barry is distinctly ahead of the Wilkins class of players for instance, but he's no Bird.
Hes well ahead of Wilkins

Ebbs
09-29-2012, 03:38 PM
Lebron did this in a shortened season and this when nearly every star out of there primes including the playoffs where 2 of the top 5 players in the league were out. Not to mention there were many more elite superstars in Bird's era compared to now.

disagee. KD and LeBron are right there and will be in discussions with all tiem greats when it's all said and done. The Celtics may have been past their prime but KG apparently had a rebirth last year according to PSD, Rondo is at his best. Your point is incredibly relative.

JordansBulls
09-29-2012, 03:40 PM
disagee. KD and LeBron are right there and will be in discussions with all tiem greats when it's all said and done. The Celtics may have been past their prime but KG apparently had a rebirth last year according to PSD, Rondo is at his best. Your point is incredibly relative.

I'm talking about PER wise. Duncan, Dirk, KG, Kobe, Rose, guys who put up good numbers were older or injured.
The celtics were also missing it's starting SG that year and still was up 3-2 without HCA.
But then again Bird lost 7 series with HCA.

Ebbs
09-29-2012, 03:42 PM
I'm talking about PER wise. Duncan, Dirk, KG, Kobe, Rose, guys who put up good numbers were older or injured.
The celtics were also missing it's starting SG that year and still was up 3-2 without HCA.
But then again Bird lost 7 series with HCA.

Honestly I think you're the only person who puts serious weight into HCA. There are players who play better on the road than at home. Teams that have played better on the road than at home. HCA is nice to have but I think in most cases it's a very minimal factor.

Chronz
09-29-2012, 03:43 PM
Larry took care of himself fine by the standards of his day/state of medicine.

He was born with a condition where his spinal cord had much less room inside his spine to move then most - making him very susceptible to irritation and worse.

After he saw Magic and others getting into better shape he went into a heavy duty weight lifting program which irritated his spine basically on a permanent basis. He tried all sorts of cures and methods and lived through constant pain his last few years in the game.
It he had knowledge of his condition well beforehand then Im in greater disbelief of the stories Ive heard of his offseason "workout" regimen. Sounds like reckless hick boy stuff. Not to mention the needless risk he took by participating in a bar fight during the playoffs, killing his teams chances.

TheJesus
09-29-2012, 03:45 PM
If Lebron James were to retire today, he would go down as the best SF in NBA history in my book. Not as far as his resume is concerned, but just as far as play in his prime. His talent.

JordansBulls
09-29-2012, 03:50 PM
Honestly I think you're the only person who puts serious weight into HCA. There are players who play better on the road than at home. Teams that have played better on the road than at home. HCA is nice to have but I think in most cases it's a very minimal factor.

Every all time great has a much better record with series with HCA vs not.

With HCA you win between 80-90 % of the series you are in while without HCA you win 30-40% of the series.

So say you have played 20 series with HCA you will probably win 16 of the 20 with HCA.
Say you played 10 series without HCA you will probably win 3 series without HCA.

16/20 = 80% w/HCA
3/10 = 30% w/o HCA

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 04:13 PM
It he had knowledge of his condition well beforehand then Im in greater disbelief of the stories Ive heard of his offseason "workout" regimen. Sounds like reckless hick boy stuff.

He did not. He had no idea. It was widely and deeply reported at the time after it was discovered, I expect it wouldn't be hard to track down stories about it. He also had bad heels which caused a lot of problems.

His pre game workout by himself was legendary for it's intensity, length, and it's covering about every situation possible for one person.


Not to mention the needless risk he took by participating in a bar fight during the playoffs, killing his teams chances.

Yeah, Larry was a man's man. Not always a wise thing. But:

After Moses said before the '81 Finals that him and 4 of his buddies from his HS team could beat the Celts, Bird kept quiet - and helped the Celts win in 6.

After Isiah made his very unfortunate comment about Bird, Bird accepted his apology which helped knock down what could have been a mess the league wouldn't have recovered from for years. He also let Rodman off the hook as well.

Bird is a complex guy that has come a long way from poverty and a father that killed himself when Bird was a teenager. Bird has made it as a player, Coach, and GM.

Oh yes, he was one of the great trash talkers of all time, baiting Erving into an unwise physical attack after Bird taunted him over and over about his 42 points to 6 for Erving. He also mixed it up with Laimbeer in '87, which I cannot for the life of me disagree with.

He also retired a few weeks before he was to collect the last installment of his final contract (over $2M I believe). He refused to reconsider, or take the money which was offered.

Like I said - complex and a complete original.

Chronz
09-29-2012, 04:25 PM
He did not. He had no idea. It was widely and deeply reported at the time after it was discovered, I expect it wouldn't be hard to track down stories about it. He also had bad heels which caused a lot of problems.

His pre game workout by himself was legendary for it's intensity, length, and it's covering about every situation possible for one person.



Yeah, Larry was a man's man. Not always a wise thing. But:

After Moses said before the '81 Finals that him and 4 of his buddies from his HS team could beat the Celts, Bird kept quiet - and helped the Celts win in 6.

After Isiah made his very unfortunate comment about Bird, Bird accepted his apology which helped knock down what could have been a mess the league wouldn't have recovered from for years. He also let Rodman off the hook as well.

Bird is a complex guy that has come a long way from poverty and a father that killed himself when Bird was a teenager. Bird has made it as a player, Coach, and GM.

Oh yes, he was one of the great trash talkers of all time, baiting Erving into an unwise physical attack after Bird taunted him over and over about his 42 points to 6 for Erving. He also mixed it up with Laimbeer in '87, which I cannot for the life of me disagree with.

He also retired a few weeks before he was to collect the last installment of his final contract (over $2M I believe). He refused to reconsider, or take the money which was offered.

Like I said - complex and a complete original.
Well said, the unfortunate reality is that those choices come with consequences, cutting short his prime in the process. Even in his prime you had to deal with alot of nagging injuries that came with his play style/mentality.


His work ethic is legendary, but the results on the court aren't so gaudy to me. I value Peak above anything, but the way Bron is going, this has the look of being one of those no brainer decisions purely based on longevity. Its why I take Kobe over Bird, so obviously Bron is going to get the same treatment.

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 04:44 PM
I have a minor nit with the comments in the poll. Baylor was not the best rebounder of the group - unless you go with raw totals - which in Baylor's time was pumped up by having FG%'s as low as the high 30's.

If you take the average team rebounds in Baylor's and Bird's best rebounding years you get 5789 in Baylor's league (in 79 games) vs. 3646 (in 82 games) in Bird's time. Then bring in the rebound totals of the two and its nearly a tie.

Baylor like Bird had a shortish career. Baylor gets a lot of fame for being the first above the rim player. But I saw Baylor in his late prime and he couldn't touch Bird. Not in any offensive category was Baylor better. One on one D - pretty close.

All of Baylor's great playoff play came before my time. He was a sad figure towards the end, more so then Bird even. I hate to see great players long after the prime is done.

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 04:51 PM
Well said, the unfortunate reality is that those choices come with consequences, cutting short his prime in the process. Even in his prime you had to deal with alot of nagging injuries that came with his play style/mentality.

But none of those fights caused lasting harm. His heels were also genetic.



His work ethic is legendary, but the results on the court aren't so gaudy to me. I value Peak above anything, but the way Bron is going, this has the look of being one of those no brainer decisions purely based on longevity. Its why I take Kobe over Bird, so obviously Bron is going to get the same treatment.

Yeah seemingly. But like I wrote yesterday, the best of the best almost don't fit into straight numeric order.

One tendency I see (not you per se) is that people chase down the scorers for "best" player - often ignoring the other dimensions. I never buy the argument for a GOAT since a team of 5 is the way the game is played. The guys on the team have to function as a team (a two way team).

James has the talent, I'm still watching his ability to be a teammate or a star at the right times in games. Wilt for instance seemed to decide what he was going to do before the game, and stick to that. Russell had to stick to his script because he couldn't function in other ways - not nearly as well that is. Last year James was great. Prior years he wasn't. The NBA and those hard floors don't yield that well. How much more will james do in the time he has left? Nobody knows.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 06:39 PM
You're missing the point. You made it out like I was some delusional fan boy for putting LeBron in the discussion with Bird. You gave no reasoning and I did supply support for my claim.

I didn't make it out like you were a delusional fan boy for putting Lebron in the discussion with Bird. I made it out like you were a delusional fan boy for saying that Lebron has already surpassed Bird.

I have given more than sufficient evidence throughout this thread. I suggest you take a look.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 06:42 PM
I'm on your side with Bird, but McHale in his prime destroys Bosh - he's about the 35th best player of all time - and it's mostly due to his peak. Bosh isn't near that, and won't match that. McHale was a vastly better and more flexible defender, he was also a distinctly superior low post player - by a ton. Bosh's best 7 years will never touch McHale's - never. So far he hasn't done it.

McHale - Years WS/48 league rank (top 10 or better): 5, 5, 4, 4, 7

Bosh - None

Wade > McHale

JordansBulls
09-29-2012, 07:50 PM
This thread should be here

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=765123

amos1er
09-29-2012, 08:21 PM
You're missing the point. You made it out like I was some delusional fan boy for putting LeBron in the discussion with Bird. You gave no reasoning and I did supply support for my claim.

The only "reasoning" I saw you give to support your claim was PER. I didn't know that PER was the end all be all stat. So are you saying that just because Lebron's top five PER's are higher, he has surpassed larry Bird? Quick, stop the presses!!! Get me Sports Center on the phone at once...we have breaking news...Ebbs has discovered that Lebron's top five career PER's were higher than Larry Bird...We must inform the experts at once...They were all wrong this whole time and this new discovery proves it without a doubt...Lebron has indeed surpassed Larry Bird as a basketball player because his top five PER's were higher. :facepalm:

Dwayne Wade had a higher PER than both Durant and Howard last season...does that make him the better player?

Blake Griffin had a higher PER than Dirk and Kobe last season...does that make him the better player?

Kevin Love had a higher PER than Howard and Kobe last season...does that make him the better player?

Bob Pettit has a higher career PER than Tim Duncan...does that make him the better player?

Barkley has a higher career PER than Kareem...does that make him the better player?

David Robinson has a higher career PER than Bird...does that make him the better player?

Karl Malone has a higher career PER than Oscar Robertson...does that make him the better player?

Dirk Nowitzki has a higher career PER than Larry Bird...does that make him the better player?

Karl Malone lead the league in PER in 96...does that mean he was better than Jordan that year?

Adrian Dantley led the league in PER in 1984...does that mean he was the best player in the league?

Shaq led the league in PER in 1998...does that mean he was the best player in the league...even better than Jordan?

David Robinson lead the league in PER in 1996, does that mean he was the best player in the league...even better than Jordan?

Dirk Nowitzki led the league in PER in 2006...does that mean he was the best player in the league? Better than Wade and Kobe?

T-Mac led the league in PER in 2003...does that mean he was the best player in the league? Better than Duncan, KG, Shaq, and Kobe?

Wade led the league in PER in 2007...does that mean he was the best player in the league? Even better than Kobe, Nash, Duncan, and Dirk? He lost in the first round that year and has clearly had better statistical seasons.

Lebron has led the league in PER since 2008...does that mean he has been the best player all those years? Wait, I already know how you're going to answer that. :rolleyes:

Fact is that even your precious PER is flawed and can be taken out of context. It's utterly ridiculous to hold PER as an and all be all stat. Even your idol Hollinger would agree. I could easily pick some random stat or accolade for my favorite player too and say that since he has has a higher top five of whatever I happened to pick it must mean that he is the better player. :pity:

Now lets look at a more fair and objective way of comparing Bird and Lebron by comparing their primes. Notice how my comparison includes factors other than PER and how it shows a non bias by reflecting their prime years instead of the five years that you hand picked in order to show off Lebron's top PER years.

Larry's Prime 83-88
83-84: 24PPG 10RPG 7APG PER 24.2 TS% 55 62 Wins
84-85: 29PPG 10RPG 7APG PER 26.5 TS% 58 63 Wins
85-86: 26PPG 10RPG 7APG PER 25.6 TS% 58 67 Wins
86-87: 28PPG 9RPG 8APG PER 26.4 TS% 61 59 Wins
87-88: 30PPG 9RPG 6APG PER 27.8 TS% 60 57 Wins

2x NBA Title
3x NBA MVP
2x NBA Finals MVP
5x NBA Allstar
5x All NBA First Team
1x All NBA defensive 2nd Team
4X NBA Finals Appearances

Lebron's Prime 08-present
07-08: 30PPG 8RPG 7APG PER 29.1 TS% 57 45 Wins
08-09: 28PPG 8RPG 7APG PER 31.7 TS% 59 66 Wins
09-10: 30PPG 7RPG 9APG PER 31.1 TS% 60 61 Wins
10-11: 27PPG 7RPG 7APG PER 27.7 TS% 59 58 Wins
11-12: 27PPG 8RPG 6APG PER 30.7 TS% 61 46/66 Wins

1x NBA Title
1x NBA Finals MVP
3x MVP
5x All NBA First Team
4x All NBA First Defensive Team
5x NBA Allstar
2 X NBA Finals Appearances

They both have 3 MVP's, 5 Allstar appearances, and 5 All NBA First Teams. Lebron has a slight statistical edge overall and was the better defender, but Birds peak numbers are better. So I'd say Lebron has a very slight advantage here. Then when you take into account that Bird has one more title and finals MVP under his belt it looks like Bird clearly has had the better prime. Also, Bird made it to the finals more times where he faced far more difficult opponents in the Showtime Lakers than Lebron faced in the 2011 Mavs. Bird also beat more difficult opponents when he won his titles. And lets not forget if we compare careers...Lebron is even further behind as Bird has another title under his belt.

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 08:23 PM
Wade > McHale

Let's look at 1986 v 2012

McHale crushed Wade - WS, WS/48 PER, how about shooting over 60% from the field and 80% from the line?

In fact line up the teams by WS on the year, and the Celts win from top to bottom - Bird > James 1st and then McHale >> Wade.

Wade has never put together 7 years in a row like McHale did - '07-'08 spoils that.

b@llhog24
09-29-2012, 08:32 PM
The only "reasoning" I saw you give to support your claim was PER. I didn't know that PER was the end all be all stat. So are you saying that just because Lebron's top five PER's are higher, he has surpassed larry Bird? Quick, stop the presses!!! Get me Sports Center on the phone at once...we have breaking news...Ebbs has discovered that Lebron's top five career PER's were higher than Larry Bird...We must inform the experts at once...They were all wrong this whole time and this new discovery proves it without a doubt...Lebron has indeed surpassed Larry Bird as a basketball player because his top five PER's were higher. :facepalm:

Dwayne Wade had a higher PER than both Durant and Howard last season...does that make him the better player?

Blake Griffin had a higher PER than Dirk and Kobe last season...does that make him the better player?

Kevin Love had a higher PER than Howard and Kobe last season...does that make him the better player?

Bob Pettit has a higher career PER than Tim Duncan...does that make him the better player?

Barkley has a higher career PER than Kareem...does that make him the better player?

David Robinson has a higher career PER than Bird...does that make him the better player?

Karl Malone has a higher career PER than Oscar Robertson...does that make him the better player?

Dirk Nowitzki has a higher career PER than Larry Bird...does that make him the better player?

Karl Malone lead the league in PER in 96...does that mean he was better than Jordan that year?

Adrian Dantley led the league in PER in 1984...does that mean he was the best player in the league?

Shaq led the league in PER in 1998...does that mean he was the best player in the league...even better than Jordan?

David Robinson lead the league in PER in 1996, does that mean he was the best player in the league...even better than Jordan?

Dirk Nowitzki led the league in PER in 2006...does that mean he was the best player in the league? Better than Wade and Kobe?

T-Mac led the league in PER in 2003...does that mean he was the best player in the league? Better than Duncan, KG, Shaq, and Kobe?

Wade led the league in PER in 2007...does that mean he was the best player in the league? Even better than Kobe, Nash, Duncan, and Dirk? He lost in the first round that year and has clearly had better statistical seasons.

Lebron has led the league in PER since 2008...does that mean he has been the best player all those years? Wait, I already know how you're going to answer that. :rolleyes:

Fact is that even your precious PER is flawed and can be taken out of context. It's utterly ridiculous to hold PER as an and all be all stat. Even your idol Hollinger would agree. I could easily pick some random stat or accolade for my favorite player too and say that since he has has a higher top five of whatever I happened to pick it must mean that he is the better player. :pity:

Now lets look at a more fair and objective way of comparing Bird and Lebron by comparing their primes. Notice how my comparison includes factors other than PER and how it shows a non bias by reflecting their prime years instead of the five years that you hand picked in order to show off Lebron's top PER years.

Larry's Prime 83-88
83-84: 24PPG 10RPG 7APG PER 24.2 TS% 55 62 Wins
84-85: 29PPG 10RPG 7APG PER 26.5 TS% 58 63 Wins
85-86: 26PPG 10RPG 7APG PER 25.6 TS% 58 67 Wins
86-87: 28PPG 9RPG 8APG PER 26.4 TS% 61 59 Wins
87-88: 30PPG 9RPG 6APG PER 27.8 TS% 60 57 Wins

2x NBA Title
3x NBA MVP
2x NBA Finals MVP
5x NBA Allstar
5x All NBA First Team
1x All NBA defensive 2nd Team
4X NBA Finals Appearances

Lebron's Prime 08-present
07-08: 30PPG 8RPG 7APG PER 29.1 TS% 57 45 Wins
08-09: 28PPG 8RPG 7APG PER 31.7 TS% 59 66 Wins
09-10: 30PPG 7RPG 9APG PER 31.1 TS% 60 61 Wins
10-11: 27PPG 7RPG 7APG PER 27.7 TS% 59 58 Wins
11-12: 27PPG 8RPG 6APG PER 30.7 TS% 61 46/66 Wins

1x NBA Title
1x NBA Finals MVP
3x MVP
5x All NBA First Team
4x All NBA First Defensive Team
5x NBA Allstar
2 X NBA Finals Appearances

They both have 3 MVP's, 5 Allstar appearances, and 5 All NBA First Teams. Lebron has a slight statistical edge overall and was the better defender, but Birds peak numbers are better. So I'd say Lebron has a very slight advantage here. Then when you take into account that Bird has one more title and finals MVP under his belt it looks like Bird clearly has had the better prime. Also, Bird made it to the finals more times where he faced far more difficult opponents in the Showtime Lakers than Lebron faced in the 2011 Mavs. Bird also beat more difficult opponents when he won his titles. And lets not forget if we compare careers...Lebron is even further behind as Bird has another title under his belt.

Don't use a stat if you don't know how to put it in context.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 08:33 PM
Let's look at 1986 v 2012

McHale crushed Wade - WS, WS/48 PER, how about shooting over 60% from the field and 80% from the line?

In fact line up the teams by WS on the year, and the Celts win from top to bottom - Bird > James 1st and then McHale >> Wade.

Wade has never put together 7 years in a row like McHale did - '07-'08 spoils that.

Wade was considered to be a top 5 player in 2011 and 2012. Are you saying that McHale was considered a top five player when playing along side Bird?

amos1er
09-29-2012, 08:34 PM
Don't use a stat if you don't know how to put it in context.

perhaps you can show me. :rolleyes:

b@llhog24
09-29-2012, 08:39 PM
Let's look at 1986 v 2012

McHale crushed Wade - WS, WS/48 PER, how about shooting over 60% from the field and 80% from the line?

1) He didn't crush him in PER.

2) I've seen you use TS% (which McHale also bests Wade in) before so why are you using FG% and FT% if TS% already accounts for that?


In fact line up the teams by WS on the year, and the Celts win from top to bottom - Bird > James 1st and then McHale >> Wade.

The fact that LeBron racked up 1 less win share will playing in 20 less games says alot abput how good LeBron was last season.


Wade has never put together 7 years in a row like McHale did - '07-'08 spoils that.

Not exactly sure of what you're trying to say here.

b@llhog24
09-29-2012, 08:39 PM
perhaps you can show me. :rolleyes:

Do your own research.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 08:42 PM
Do your own research.

I was mocking you.

b@llhog24
09-29-2012, 08:43 PM
I was mocking you.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/4551020313_04df3e7edf.jpg

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 08:59 PM
Wade was considered to be a top 5 player in 2011 and 2012. Are you saying that McHale was considered a top five player when playing along side Bird?

Reputation doesn't interest me in the least. For instance some people think Rondo was the best PG in the league last year or that Maravich was an all time great NBA player - both are massively untrue.

Wade in 2012 was 15th in WinShares and 6th in WS/48

McHale in 1986 was 5th in WinShares and 4th in WS/48

So I'm sorry, but Wade was not a top 5 player last year, and McHale was clearly a top 5 player in '86.

Bird was 1, McHale 5, Parish 16

James was 1, Wade 15, Bosh 28

JordansBulls
09-29-2012, 09:01 PM
Reputation doesn't interest me in the least. For instance some people think Rondo was the best PG in the league last year or that Maravich was an all time great NBA player - both are massively untrue.

Wade in 2012 was 15th in WinShares and 7th in WS/48

McHale in 1986 was 5th in WinShares and 4th in WS/48

So I'm sorry, but Wade was not a top 5 player last year, and McHale was clearly a top 5 player in '86.

Bird was 1, McHale 5, Parish 16

James was 1, Wade 15, Bosh 28

WTF, Wade wasn't no 15th ranked player last year. Dude was 3rd in the league in PER and you say he was ranked 15th?

b@llhog24
09-29-2012, 09:03 PM
WTF, Wade wasn't no 15th ranked player last year. Dude was 3rd in the league in PER and you say he was ranked 15th?

:pity:

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 09:04 PM
WTF, Wade wasn't no 15th ranked player last year. Dude was 3rd in the league in PER and you say he was ranked 15th?

He was 15th in Win Shares - I didn't say it - Win Shares said it. I don't like PER that much and rarely use it, and believe that PER did not exist in 1986 so it's unfair to use it in this particular debate with Wade v McHale.

bucketss
09-29-2012, 09:06 PM
Reputation doesn't interest me in the least. For instance some people think Rondo was the best PG in the league last year or that Maravich was an all time great NBA player - both are massively untrue.

Wade in 2012 was 15th in WinShares and 6th in WS/48

McHale in 1986 was 5th in WinShares and 4th in WS/48

So I'm sorry, but Wade was not a top 5 player last year, and McHale was clearly a top 5 player in '86.

Bird was 1, McHale 5, Parish 16

James was 1, Wade 15, Bosh 28

what in the world please name 14 players better than wade in 2011-2012

amos1er
09-29-2012, 09:07 PM
Reputation doesn't interest me in the least. For instance some people think Rondo was the best PG in the league last year or that Maravich was an all time great NBA player - both are massively untrue.

Wade in 2012 was 15th in WinShares and 6th in WS/48

McHale in 1986 was 5th in WinShares and 4th in WS/48

So I'm sorry, but Wade was not a top 5 player last year, and McHale was clearly a top 5 player in '86.

Bird was 1, McHale 5, Parish 16

James was 1, Wade 15, Bosh 28

WOW...I might agree that he wasn't top five, but to say 15th??? Bosh 28th??? Oh my.

Do you have any other evidence other than Winshares? Or is WinShares your end all be all stat? Everyone seems to have one on here.

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 09:10 PM
what in the world please name 10 players better than wade in 2011-2012

Look, basketball-reference can speak for themselves. Look it up #15 in Win Shares. You guys do know he missed some games, that should count against him in some metrics don't you think?

His PER and WS/48 are higher, but he missed 25.8% of his games. Basketball Reference in the expanded league player pages just lists one advanced stat for the leaders - it's called WIN SHARES.

Don't like it, pick it up with basketball-reference.

b@llhog24
09-29-2012, 09:13 PM
Look, basketball-reference can speak for themselves. Look it up #15 in Win Shares. You guys do know he missed some games, that should count against him in some metrics don't you think?

His PER and WS/48 are higher, but he missed 25.8% of his games. Basketball Reference in the expanded league player pages just lists one advanced stat for the leaders - it's called WIN SHARES.

Don't like it, pick it up with basketball-reference.

Bingo.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 09:14 PM
He was 15th in Win Shares - I didn't say it - Win Shares said it. I don't like PER that much and rarely use it, and believe that PER did not exist in 1986 so it's unfair to use it in this particular debate with Wade v McHale.

WTF...just because it didn't exist doesn't mean that it's not applicable. Not to say that I agree with it either.

What makes WinShares to be so much more valuable than PER in your opinion?

I always feel that we should look at the entire picture, not just one stat. I tell this to the PER guys too. It should be a cumulative outlook on all stats, accomplishments, accolades, environments, opponents, teammates, era, and degree of difficulty compared to other greats. WinShares is but a cherry in one of the many pieces of pie it takes to truly rank a great player.

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 09:15 PM
WOW...I might agree that he wasn't top five, but to say 15th??? Bosh 28th??? Oh my.

Do you have any other evidence other than Winshares? Or is WinShares your end all be all stat? Everyone seems to have one on here.

He missed 25.8% of his regular season games. That means he can't amass stats and wins for his team. If Wade is your binky and you don't like it, I'm sorry - I'm trying to be objective.

McHale missed 17.1% of his games in '86 and he managed to amass more goodies then Wade did.

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 09:21 PM
WTF...just because it didn't exist doesn't mean that it's not applicable. Not to say that I agree with it either.

What? So there is no way to calculate PER and that's to be counted against McHale.


What makes WinShares to be so much more valuable than PER in your opinion?

PER has been ripped quite a bit here over the years, search in advanced stats for the answer.


I always feel that we should look at the entire picture, not just one stat. I tell this to the PER guys too. It should be a cumulative outlook on all stats, accomplishments, accolades, environments, opponents, teammates, era, and degree of difficulty compared to other greats. WinShares is but a cherry in one of the many pieces of pie it takes to truly rank a great player.

That's fine with me. McHale was a better percentage shooter then Wade, better rebounder, able to guard more players at a very high level than Wade could. Wade was a better passer, ball handler, and ball hawk.

You started this phase of the conversation by saying Wade > McHale.

I have now provided statistical evidence as well as eye witness accounts that this simply isn't true. It's on you, not me to prove your original claim is true.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 09:25 PM
Bingo.

Derrick Rose missed half of last season, yet ESPN ranked him 5th best in the league. Do you agree with that?

amos1er
09-29-2012, 09:26 PM
He missed 25.8% of his regular season games. That means he can't amass stats and wins for his team. If Wade is your binky and you don't like it, I'm sorry - I'm trying to be objective.

McHale missed 17.1% of his games in '86 and he managed to amass more goodies then Wade did.

ESPN has Rose ranked at 5th best yet he missed half of last season.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 09:31 PM
What? So there is no way to calculate PER and that's to be counted against McHale.



PER has been ripped quite a bit here over the years, search in advanced stats for the answer.



That's fine with me. McHale was a better percentage shooter then Wade, better rebounder, able to guard more players at a very high level than Wade could. Wade was a better passer, ball handler, and ball hawk.

You started this phase of the conversation by saying Wade > McHale.

I have now provided statistical evidence as well as eye witness accounts that this simply isn't true. It's on you, not me to prove your original claim is true.

Where are your eye witness accounts? And how have you proven otherwise? All you did is provide their WinShare numbers. Again, how does WinShares proove that one player is better than the other. What about ppg, rpg, apg, ts% big game moments and other intangibles that don't show up on a stat sheet like the fact that Wade draws away more defenders than McHale. Again, why do you find WinShares to be so telling of a players greatness.

amos1er
09-29-2012, 09:32 PM
duplicate.

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 09:49 PM
Derrick Rose missed half of last season, yet ESPN ranked him 5th best in the league. Do you agree with that?

ESPN usually screws things up. I imagine that that they were using of blend of subjective perception, his recent MVP, and his partial season to place him.

If he played the whole season at the rate he played at he would not have been top 5. More like #8-12 range. This is based on last year and last year only.

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 09:58 PM
Where are your eye witness accounts? And how have you proven otherwise? All you did is provide their WinShare numbers. Again, how does WinShares proove that one player is better than the other. What about ppg, rpg, apg, ts% big game moments and other intangibles that don't show up on a stat sheet like the fact that Wade draws away more defenders than McHale. Again, why do you find WinShares to be so telling of a players greatness.

Me. I probably missed two Celtic games that whole year, and saw 5 of them in person. I was also a college player, and an AAU Coach for many years. I saw Miami play every playoff game after the first round and another 15 or so.

You said Wade > McHale, and its not true by eye, nor by rebounding totals, FG%, or defense. McHale is also clearly one of the 5 greatest low post offensive players of all time. Wade certainly isn't top 5 at anything - other then all around SG ranking.

I never limited myself to just Win Shares BTW - and have mentioned other factors already. I have no idea why you are trying to pin that on me - unless it is the failure of your original claim.

Charles Barkely said McHale is the best player he ever played against BTW, and he drew a large amount of defenders. More then Parish, and maybe as much as Bird since McHale wasn't much of a passer (black hole was one of his nicknames). Didn't matter, take a good long look at his FG%'s - those were not all dunks, his most common shot was a fallaway, probably the highest % fallaway in NBA history.

b@llhog24
09-29-2012, 09:58 PM
Bingo.

Derrick Rose missed half of last season, yet ESPN ranked him 5th best in the league. Do you agree with that?

Not sure what this has to do with Win shares but whatever. Did he have a top 5 season last year? No. Because of all the nagging injuries he suffered last season. Is a healthy Rose a top 5 player? Debatable, but personally I'd put Paul LeBron, Dwight, Durant above him, after that then Wade, Westbrook, Love and maybe Kobe can create a great argument against him.

JordansBulls
11-16-2012, 12:12 PM
Not sure what this has to do with Win shares but whatever. Did he have a top 5 season last year? No. Because of all the nagging injuries he suffered last season. Is a healthy Rose a top 5 player? Debatable, but personally I'd put Paul LeBron, Dwight, Durant above him, after that then Wade, Westbrook, Love and maybe Kobe can create a great argument against him.

What has CP3 done that Rose hasn't?

alexander_37
11-16-2012, 01:50 PM
Not a Larry Bird fan.

Underdogz∞
11-16-2012, 02:10 PM
+1

+2 On the Larry Legend vote but Lebron has a lot a lot of winning and performing in big games to do to catch up to Larry Bird A LOT!

asandhu23
11-16-2012, 02:46 PM
Rick Barry won a championship as the only star on Warriors.

b@llhog24
11-16-2012, 02:54 PM
What has CP3 done that Rose hasn't?

Play better basketball.

asandhu23
11-16-2012, 02:56 PM
Barry and Dr J are barely getting votes. Show you how much you guys are influenced by media.

Sly Guy
11-16-2012, 03:06 PM
His team would have to be stacked.



We've seen Pippen as the 'guy' before though, and that version is still inferior to Bird so I honestly don't see the debate.

agreed. Jordan retired and we saw a solo scottie. I wouldn't take him over bird

ewing
11-16-2012, 03:25 PM
No votes for Alex English :facepalm: That guy lead the 1980s in scoring. Take that Bird

LoveMeOrHateMe
11-16-2012, 03:59 PM
Larry bird the fact that lebron has 1/4 of the votes and bird has 2/4 is truly pathetic it should be bird no question about it lebron with 40+ votes lol it's to premature to call lebron the best sf ever at this time give it Time kids... I bet those people who think its lebron already are the same that think Kobe isn't a top 10 player
Ever

LoveMeOrHateMe
11-16-2012, 04:28 PM
Wade was considered to be a top 5 player in 2011 and 2012. Are you saying that McHale was considered a top five player when playing along side Bird?

Wade a top 5 player in 2011 yes in 2012 hell no he was barely fringe top 10 this past season he's always hurt now

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 04:28 PM
Barry and Dr J are barely getting votes. Show you how much you guys are influenced by media.

Either of them should be getting votes over Bird or LeBron?

KB-Pau-DH2012
11-16-2012, 04:30 PM
Metta World Peace.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 04:30 PM
Larry bird the fact that lebron has 1/4 of the votes and bird has 2/4 is truly pathetic it should be bird no question about it lebron with 40+ votes lol it's to premature to call lebron the best sf ever at this time give it Time kids... I bet those people who think its lebron already are the same that think Kobe isn't a top 10 player
Ever

premature? Bird played 9 healthy seasons. Guess what season LeBron is in now? LeBron will pass Bird shortly. There is no way of stopping that, Bird's injuries prevent him from keeping much of a cushion on this ranking.

Bruno
11-16-2012, 04:33 PM
it's still bird.

...only way it ends up Bird for good is if LBJ donuts, or one-zies from here out.

JayW_1023
11-16-2012, 09:03 PM
Bird still deserves the title. But when it's all said and done, LBJ will take that title, IF he racks up a few more titles.

bucketss
11-16-2012, 09:09 PM
Larry bird the fact that lebron has 1/4 of the votes and bird has 2/4 is truly pathetic it should be bird no question about it lebron with 40+ votes lol it's to premature to call lebron the best sf ever at this time give it Time kids... I bet those people who think its lebron already are the same that think Kobe isn't a top 10 player
Ever

it's inevitable.

MackSnackWrap
11-16-2012, 09:18 PM
Larry but Lebron will pass him aslong as he stays healthy

old blue
11-16-2012, 09:22 PM
Larry hands down

PleaseBeNice
11-16-2012, 10:15 PM
LBJ ***** on Bird

PleaseBeNice
11-16-2012, 10:16 PM
Either of them should be getting votes over Bird or LeBron?

Hes an incredible Warriors homer. His opinion is pretty much irrelevant if Warriors players are compared to other NBA players, due to the fact of his extreme bias.

Hawkeye15
11-16-2012, 10:17 PM
Bird still deserves the title. But when it's all said and done, LBJ will take that title, IF he racks up a few more titles.

no way LeBron need a few more titles. He just needs to do his thing another few years.

iDefend10
11-16-2012, 10:19 PM
I took Larry Legend on this one, but I feel LeBron will pass him up when his career is done.

asandhu23
11-16-2012, 10:21 PM
Hes an incredible Warriors homer. His opinion is pretty much irrelevant if Warriors players are compared to other NBA players, due to the fact of his extreme bias.

Says Cousinevansduo Jr.

asandhu23
11-16-2012, 10:25 PM
Either of them should be getting votes over Bird or LeBron?

Barry and Erving are debatably just as good as them. The rest, no.

carter80
11-16-2012, 11:29 PM
Chris Mullin.

BklyNyk
11-16-2012, 11:45 PM
As of right now, it's still Larry. One of the most clutch players to play in the league, tough as nails , played against and beat some serious competition in a much tougher NBA.

asandhu23
11-16-2012, 11:47 PM
Chris Mullin.

nah.

PleaseBeNice
11-17-2012, 12:27 AM
Says Cousinevansduo Jr.

HA! I Dont think I've made any crazy, ridiculous, homer fueled comments..? You sound a little butt hurt, walk it off.

asandhu23
11-17-2012, 01:44 AM
HA! I Dont think I've made any crazy, ridiculous, homer fueled comments..? You sound a little butt hurt, walk it off.

nice projection.

PleaseBeNice
11-17-2012, 01:46 AM
nice projection.

Walk it off, let it go.

3RDASYSTEM
11-17-2012, 02:17 AM
I'm talking about degree of difficulty while at the same time getting the job done. Bird went all the way with lesser talent against greater competition.

Any of Birds championship teams would have been able to make short work of the 2011 Mavs or the 2012 Thunder. Could you honestly say the same about Lebron's Heat vs. 81 Rockets/Sixers, 84 Lakers, or 86 Rockets? Bird never had a finals performance as bad as Lebron in 2011 or 2007, yet Lebron has never had as good a finals performance as Bird has against much greater opponents.

Bird: 1984 Finals MVP: 27.4 ppg, 14 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.1 spg against the Showtime Lakers.

Bird: 1986 Finals MVP: 24 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 9.5 apg (basically a tripple double) against a very solid Hakeem Olajuwon led Huston Rockets team that beat out the Showtime Lakers in the WCF.

Lebron 2012 Finals MVP: 28.6 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 7.4 apg, 1.6 spg against a very green OKC team with a top 5 and a top 15-20 player at his side.

Even when Bird lost in the finals twice to the Showtime Lakers, he never played as bad as Lebron did in the 2011 finals or the 2007 finals. Bird won his first title in his second year in the league against a great Moses Malone lead Rockets team, averaging 15 ppg, 15 rpg, 7 apg and 2.3 spg, so don't give me crap about how Lebron was young when he played in the 2007 finals.

See this is wat i admire about you LAKERfiens

First off nobody made excuses on BRON being too ''young'' in 2007 Finals, he made it same yr(4) in his career KOBE made it to his first one

and how come you and others alike can use the KOBE being too ''young'' when he entered draft and on a stacked squad to justify his backupguard role?

Slug3
11-17-2012, 02:29 AM
I believe it's Larry for now. I feel lebron is pretty clos though and should pass him in a few years.

SACNYY
11-17-2012, 02:45 AM
Larry Bird or Peja

tripleplay2007
11-17-2012, 03:14 AM
If you voted Le***** over Larry Bird you are a bandwagon fool!

naps
11-17-2012, 03:44 AM
Bird as of right now. But it's LeBron barring any serious injury without a doubt within a few years. LeBron is destined to be the only to be in that legit debate of the GOAT along with Jordan. Brid don't stand a chance in that super elite conversation.

JordansBulls
11-17-2012, 09:49 AM
Larry Bird or Peja

:speechless: