PDA

View Full Version : Is Lebron already the 2nd best SF alltime?



JordansBulls
09-26-2012, 09:17 PM
If not where would you rank him as a SF all-time?

LAKERMANIA
09-26-2012, 09:21 PM
It's tough to say, tbh, I havent thoroughly checked his stats and compared them to Bird or Erving.. But to me it's safe to say he is in 2nd, trailing Larry Bird of course..

Raps08-09 Champ
09-26-2012, 09:22 PM
Yea. He'll be #1 by the end of his career.

CavsYanksDuke
09-26-2012, 09:34 PM
Bird then LeBron and Barkley to me. Another title puts LeBron above a lot of great players and two more probably will put him above Bird.

THE MTL
09-26-2012, 09:36 PM
If he wins another championship it'll be safe to say he's the best SF of all time.

Kashmir13579
09-26-2012, 09:37 PM
How many more years of dominance before he's the GOAT SF?

tredigs
09-26-2012, 09:40 PM
Bird then LeBron and Barkley to me. Another title puts LeBron above a lot of great players and two more probably will put him above Bird.

SF?...

DR. J's a tough rank because his legend was always said to be strongest pre NBA over in the ABA from 21-25. That's a player I would've loved to see night to night regardless.

Him and Lebron are a good debate though. Larry still has them both. I'd say he's eclipsed Hondo and probably even Elgin Baylor.

Ebbs
09-26-2012, 09:41 PM
I would take him over Bird now . . . :hide:

Phenomenonsense
09-26-2012, 09:41 PM
I think if Lebron gets the 3peat, he can be the greatest of all time (in terms of SFs), but I think that in order to be the best you have to beat the best, not just tie them. So if he doesn't get the 3peat, he has to get at least 4 rings.

MTar786
09-26-2012, 09:44 PM
he is the goat sf already.. but its arguable still. give him 4 more years to solidify the fact

tredigs
09-26-2012, 09:44 PM
How many more years of dominance before he's the GOAT SF?

Statistically, or "who am I taking on my team to win a 7 game championship series with my life on the line"?

seikou8
09-26-2012, 09:45 PM
yes

seikou8
09-26-2012, 09:46 PM
Statistically, or "who am I taking on my team to win a 7 game championship series with my life on the line"?

no offense to bron i am taking bird any day of the week

ACanadian
09-26-2012, 09:48 PM
IMO these are my all-time SF
1. Julius Erivin
2. LeBron
3. Bird

tredigs
09-26-2012, 09:48 PM
Personally, no way I would choose Lebron over prime Bird on my team for a championship series, or an entire season for that matter (and obviously Lebron to this point can't touch Bird's overall career). But over Dr. J/Elgin/Hondo he does have a formidable case in the debate right now.

Chacarron
09-26-2012, 09:51 PM
I would take him over Bird now . . . :hide:

You are not the only one.

C_Mund
09-26-2012, 09:52 PM
I don't know how Pippen doesn't even get a mention. I truly believe that if he had his own team for a whole career there could have been two 'chips on his resume

ACanadian
09-26-2012, 09:57 PM
I don't know how Pippen doesn't even get a mention. I truly believe that if he had his own team for a whole career there could have been two 'chips on his resume

I was gonna put Pippen at #4 but I didn't know how to spell his name correctly :laugh:
Im terrible with name's :s

Bos_Sports4Life
09-26-2012, 10:03 PM
Stat wise? He'll pass Bird

Who do I trust more in a big game? It's Bird imo no doubt

Stats are not everything, esp in basketball.

seikou8
09-26-2012, 10:05 PM
Stat wise? He'll pass Bird

Who do I trust more in a big game? It's Bird imo no doubt

Stats are not everything, esp in basketball.

this

NYKnicks4511
09-26-2012, 10:28 PM
LeBron will pass Bird. We're witnessing one of the greatest (if you didn't already know, hah). LeBron will be a top 5 player All-Time if he stays on track. It's hard to hate the guy anymore honestly. He's just too fun to watch, and it will make it even better when the Knicks take out the Heat this year :|

IndyRealist
09-26-2012, 10:52 PM
LeBron will pass Bird. We're witnessing one of the greatest (if you didn't already know, hah). LeBron will be a top 5 player All-Time if he stays on track. It's hard to hate the guy anymore honestly. He's just too fun to watch, and it will make it even better when the Knicks take out the Heat this year :|

Will pass Bird? Barring injury or a switch to baseball, yes.

Has passed Bird, Dr. J, or Havilicek? Not yet. His body of work just isn't long enough. I'd put him up there with Elgin Baylor right now, and Baylor averaged 27pts 14rbs....for his career. That's a tough man to pass when Lebron only has one ring.

JNoel
09-26-2012, 11:24 PM
He will pass Bird eventually.

On a side note Joel Anthony is a top Center in today's game.

Iggz53
09-26-2012, 11:27 PM
Personally, no way I would choose Lebron over prime Bird on my team for a championship series, or an entire season for that matter (and obviously Lebron to this point can't touch Bird's overall career). But over Dr. J/Elgin/Hondo he does have a formidable case in the debate right now.

I agree with this

CB29
09-26-2012, 11:32 PM
#2 right now... Larry Bird was amazing so don't discount him. Lebrons closing in though.

LTBaByyy
09-26-2012, 11:36 PM
People are 1) under rating Bird OR 2) too young where they didn't even see Bird play and choose Lebron regardless

GunFactor187
09-26-2012, 11:38 PM
You know as well as I do JB, that it goes like this...

1. T-Mac
2. LBJ

Corey
09-26-2012, 11:42 PM
Bird in his prime :drool:

30 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 53% FG, 40% 3PT, 92% FT

.608 TS%, .556 eFG%, .243 WS/48...

With a clutch gene on top of it all.

Yeah.

beasted86
09-26-2012, 11:46 PM
Bird played in an era of a breakneck pace in comparison to today's league and the types of grind out offensive teams LeBron has played on. He also had hall of fame teammates throughout his career. Statistically LeBron has him far beat already. It's just a matter of accomplishments for LeBron before he over takes him.

LTBaByyy
09-26-2012, 11:47 PM
Larry Bird was a 12 time all star, 3 MVP, 2 NBA Finals MVP, 3 Championships, 9 All NBA First team, 1 All NBA Second team, 3 NBA All Defensive 2nd team, 3 three point shoot out champ, NBA rookie of the year, Gold Medal on Dream Team

Averaged 24 pts, 10 reb, and 6 ast for his career

Been to 5 championships, won 3

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-26-2012, 11:50 PM
Bird played in an era of a breakneck pace in comparison to today's league and the types of grind out offensive teams LeBron has played on. He also had hall of fame teammates throughout his career. Statistically LeBron has him far beat already. It's just a matter of accomplishments for LeBron before he over takes him.

LeBron joined a future HOFer who had already won a title and finals MVP without him. And back then, defenses were tougher, not the soft floppy crap that today's superstars like LeBron pull.

beasted86
09-26-2012, 11:55 PM
LeBron joined a future HOFer who had already won a title and finals MVP without him. And back then, defenses were tougher, not the soft floppy crap that today's superstars like LeBron pull.

Call me when LeBron plays on his rookie team with Tiny Archibald, Dave Cowens, Cedric Maxwell and Pete Maravich. I'm not going to get into later years....

Anyway, like I said, I'm not making this into a career accomplishments debate because Bird has him by a pretty large margin, but statistically LeBron is already ahead of Bird.

UPRock
09-26-2012, 11:59 PM
LeBron joined a future HOFer who had already won a title and finals MVP without him. And back then, defenses were tougher, not the soft floppy crap that today's superstars like LeBron pull.

You're just a LeBron hater, Bird was on a HOF team since the beginning of his career like your baby boy Kobe, so stop hating and enjoy the thread.

b@llhog24
09-27-2012, 12:19 AM
I would take him over Bird now . . . :hide:

+1. In about 3-4 seasons I don't think it will be much of a discussion.

mngopher35
09-27-2012, 12:20 AM
Its so hard to compare Lebron because he isn't even finished and could possibly play better next year since hes in his prime. Its arguable but I would probably take this past season Lebron had over any Bird had (his elite D tips things for me). That being said Bird has so many accomplishments and we cant say for sure if Lebron will match.

heyman321
09-27-2012, 12:28 AM
Bird then LeBron and Barkley to me. Another title puts LeBron above a lot of great players and two more probably will put him above Bird.

Charles Barkley played PF

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-27-2012, 12:29 AM
You're just a LeBron hater, Bird was on a HOF team since the beginning of his career like your baby boy Kobe, so stop hating and enjoy the thread.

Yea, and I was openly pulling for the guy to finally win that chip last yr.

Some of you children :pity:

IndyRealist
09-27-2012, 12:37 AM
Bird has the edge in FG%, 3pt % and FT%, all on volume. So Bird was a better scorer.

If you don't count Bird's injured year where he played 6 games, his worst rebounding year was 8.5rpg. Lebron's best year is 7.9rpg. Bird averaged 10rpg for his career. So Bird was a better rebounder.

Lebron is absolutely a better defender, but Bird was no slouch. And surprisingly, for their careers they averaged the same number of blocks and steals per game.

Then there's the clutch thing. And the rings thing.

And that brings up an interesting question. Would Lebron get 3 rings in the 80's, going up against Magic, Drexler, Hakeem, Barkley, Dominique, Jordan, and Isiah?

LakersMaster24
09-27-2012, 01:05 AM
You are not the only one.

Come on Chac. :pity:

Andrew32
09-27-2012, 01:09 AM
Lebron probably needs 3-4 more Super-Star level seasons with happy endings *in victory or defeat* before I can really start considering him VS Bird.

Only other SF that might have a case to be over him still is Erving.

PurpleJesus
09-27-2012, 01:10 AM
Bird then LeBron and Barkley to me. Another title puts LeBron above a lot of great players and two more probably will put him above Bird.

Barkley is the 3rd best SF of all time ya say?

PleaseBeNice
09-27-2012, 01:12 AM
I think LeBron has already claimed the best spot. But it's debateable. Give him 1 more ring, and 3-4 more years of his current play and it will be no question

Blink
09-27-2012, 01:13 AM
Bird has the edge in FG%, 3pt % and FT%, all on volume. So Bird was a better scorer.

If you don't count Bird's injured year where he played 6 games, his worst rebounding year was 8.5rpg. Lebron's best year is 7.9rpg. Bird averaged 10rpg for his career. So Bird was a better rebounder.

Lebron is absolutely a better defender, but Bird was no slouch. And surprisingly, for their careers they averaged the same number of blocks and steals per game.

Then there's the clutch thing. And the rings thing.

And that brings up an interesting question. Would Lebron get 3 rings in the 80's, going up against Magic, Drexler, Hakeem, Barkley, Dominique, Jordan, and Isiah?


Nice post man

John Walls Era
09-27-2012, 01:21 AM
NO way hes even top 100 SF. Lebron never won anything as Da Man. Lebron has always played with winners, proven winners to be exact. He played with a 33 year old Ben Wallace who was still maturing and a Shaq who just won an all star MVP (only all stars win those!!!). Ben Wallace won as Da Man, it was all him; Rip, Billups, Rasheed and Prince were just the side dishes. Shaq won 3 titles as the man, yeah it was like 7 years before playing with Lebron, BUT still counts. Lets not forget Wade as well.




;)

PleaseBeNice
09-27-2012, 01:22 AM
NO way hes even top 100 SF. Lebron never won anything as Da Man. Lebron has always played with winners, proven winners to be exact. He played with a 33 year old Ben Wallace who was still maturing and a Shaq who just won an all star MVP (only all stars win those!!!). Ben Wallace won as Da Man, it was all him; Rip, Billups, Rasheed and Prince were just the side dishes. Shaq won 3 titles as the man, yeah it was like 7 years before playing with Lebron, BUT still counts. Lets not forget Wade as well.




;)

My JB senses are tingling

mngopher35
09-27-2012, 01:22 AM
Bird has the edge in FG%, 3pt % and FT%, all on volume. So Bird was a better scorer.

If you don't count Bird's injured year where he played 6 games, his worst rebounding year was 8.5rpg. Lebron's best year is 7.9rpg. Bird averaged 10rpg for his career. So Bird was a better rebounder.

Lebron is absolutely a better defender, but Bird was no slouch. And surprisingly, for their careers they averaged the same number of blocks and steals per game.

Then there's the clutch thing. And the rings thing.

And that brings up an interesting question. Would Lebron get 3 rings in the 80's, going up against Magic, Drexler, Hakeem, Barkley, Dominique, Jordan, and Isiah?

I agree with most of what you have said although I wouldnt say Bird was a better scorer by much if at all. Lebrons per game scoring numbers are overall better than Birds (8 yrs scoring over 25 ppg, to 4 for bird) and his ts% is about the same as Bird's. Lebrons ability to get to the line can somewhat negate birds superior shooting skills. Like I said in an earlier post we have to see how long lebron can continue to play at this high of a level or better but I believe this last season was as good as any bird had.

WaltonSystem
09-27-2012, 01:30 AM
I would take him over Bird now . . . :hide:

http://t.qkme.me/3qc53x.jpg

dee279
09-27-2012, 01:30 AM
I would say so and i would put him close to overtaking Larry

ewmania
09-27-2012, 01:35 AM
I mean wilt was a stat machine but I still put bill russell and kareem over him as being a better Center... so I'm not going to say he's better than bird because he isnt

but I would say #2 right now as best SF of all time

nico916
09-27-2012, 01:36 AM
skill set and natural ability had him at #2 for a while but I think if he performs like he did in the finals and when showed everybody what happens when you piss him off he will easily be #1 all time.

naps
09-27-2012, 02:38 AM
JB, what does your HCA formula say? I'll base it on HCA.

Lakersfan2483
09-27-2012, 02:56 AM
He has a legit case for being no. 2 all time based on what he has accomplished thus far and how impressive he has been statistically.


Top small forwards of all time: Bird, Lebron, Dr. J, Elgin Baylor, John Havlicek, Rick Barry, Scottie Pippen.

NYYCowboys
09-27-2012, 03:51 AM
I think he's already the best SF of all time. No one puts up numbers like Lebron does. I think if he wins 3 or more championship he may go down as the GOAT period.

Bruno
09-27-2012, 04:18 AM
Bird in his prime :drool:

30 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 53% FG, 40% 3PT, 92% FT

.608 TS%, .556 eFG%, .243 WS/48...

With a clutch gene on top of it all.

Yeah.

easy to forget that Bird averaged ten rebounds per game for his career.

lebrons a better defender but it's hard to pass on larry in a best of seven.

amos1er
09-27-2012, 04:22 AM
Bird in his prime :drool:

30 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 53% FG, 40% 3PT, 92% FT

.608 TS%, .556 eFG%, .243 WS/48...

With a clutch gene on top of it all.

Yeah.

This.

Lebron still has a way to go to be compared to Bird.

Those stats are ridiculous. :speechless:

amos1er
09-27-2012, 04:26 AM
I think he's already the best SF of all time. No one puts up numbers like Lebron does. I think if he wins 3 or more championship he may go down as the GOAT period.

As someone else already said...


Originally Posted by Corey
Bird in his prime

30 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 53% FG, 40% 3PT, 92% FT

.608 TS%, .556 eFG%, .243 WS/48...

With a clutch gene on top of it all.

Yeah.

CarrShooter
09-27-2012, 05:39 AM
Hes got awhile to go before he reaches Bird's level, but might just get there by the end of his career. Right now, he is second best.

looka09
09-27-2012, 05:41 AM
Yes.

stawka
09-27-2012, 06:03 AM
Definitely #2 for now, but I see him overtaking Bird and cracking the top 5 eventually IMHO

bagwell368
09-27-2012, 06:12 AM
SF?...

DR. J's a tough rank because his legend was always said to be strongest pre NBA over in the ABA from 21-25. That's a player I would've loved to see night to night regardless.

Him and Lebron are a good debate though. Larry still has them both. I'd say he's eclipsed Hondo and probably even Elgin Baylor.

I saw Dr. J for the first time as a sophomore at the Cage. He was great, but, he was well eclipsed by Bird years ago. Hondo's shooting percentages were poor. Baylor was a beast, but behind Bird as well.

LeBron is the choice if you want a fearsome dominating player, Bird runs rings around him in a 5 player team setting and always will.

Barkley is not a SF, he's a PF IMO (to whomever said it)

b@llhog24
09-27-2012, 08:50 AM
As someone else already said...

Bird can't touch LeBron statistically, stick to your youtube links and intangible arguments.

Dade County
09-27-2012, 09:13 AM
Lbj will be the best Sf ever when all is said and done.... and Wade will be the 2nd best Sg ever when all is said and done.. and Bosh will be Bosh :)

BKLYNpigeon
09-27-2012, 09:14 AM
who cares. wait 10 years and then you will know.


Lebron is an ACL injury or Microfracture knee injury to being mediocre.

bagwell368
09-27-2012, 09:30 AM
Bird can't touch LeBron statistically, stick to your youtube links and intangible arguments.

What stats would those be?

FG% - no
3PT%? - no
FT% - no
Reb% - no

Also, do remember to look at Bird at the same years LBJ has in - Bird had a decline that hurt his numbers, no telling on LBJ. BTW, if you never saw Bird a lot, then your youtube comment makes no sense.

da ThRONe
09-27-2012, 09:30 AM
It's a two part question in my opinion. Based on career is LeBron #2 SF or based on their prime abilities where does LeBron rank.

The first question I have LeBron #4. Behind Bird, Erving, and Pippen.

The second question I have LeBron 1st. He's the best basketball player I've ever seen. I have never seen one player excel at so many areas of the game. And still have room for improvement.

The goods
09-27-2012, 09:46 AM
Bird is first atleast for now right now I think LeBron and Dr.J are on the same level.

On a side note no love for Pippen?

Dankster
09-27-2012, 09:52 AM
He's not better than Larry Bird. I doubt many posters here were fortunate enough to watch Bird in his prime. The only thing he really lacked was speed. The guy was a tough SOB, probably the greatest shooter of all time, tenacious rebounder and was one of the most clutch players in history. That back injury really derailed his career; if he never sustained such a debilitating injury he probably would've played another 3-4 years at a very productive level.

That 86 Celtics team might be the greatest team in the history of the NBA (obviously you can make a case for the 96 Bulls.)

And Erving in his prime was no slouch either. If he decided to play in Mil with the Big-O and Kareem instead of wasting away 4-5 years of his prime in the ABA, his game would be better known to the masses. The guy was an absolute magician with the ball, incredible athlete, tremendous rebounder and a versatile offensive weapon.

But Lebron at only 28 has carved out a very impressive career up to this point with video game-like stats, so I'd rate them:

1. Bird
2. Julius
3. James
4. Havlicek
5. Dominique
6. Pippen

xcrisisx
09-27-2012, 09:58 AM
considering lebron is the arguably the greatest athletic player of all time, and bird the least, I'd say bird was a better player. by this stage in his carreer, lebron also hasn't reached bird's resumee, but he probably will when he's done. most people just overreact on stats. he might/ will be the greatest sf when he retires, just not right now

Bullsfan22
09-27-2012, 10:04 AM
1 More ring and sustained statistics for 4-5 more years and he has my vote. Take away the hate for Lebron and he's destined to be a top 5 player of all-time if he racks up a couple more rings.

ManningToTyree
09-27-2012, 10:05 AM
Bird is still ahead for now.

Davidgta1
09-27-2012, 10:07 AM
Stat wise yeah how they played the game id have to go with Bird as best Sf of all time but Lebron could past him with 2 more rings in my mind.

3RDASYSTEM
09-27-2012, 10:09 AM
BRON's already one of the top individual players of alltime just off his sheer game/ability/impact

his legacy is debatable once he calls it quits

and since he got that stupid elusive 'ring' how can you not put him over BIRD since he does match BIRD's 3 NBA MVP's and now that he has a championship roster hes 2 for 2 in NBA Finals trips and hes what like 27yrs old? he's going for top 3 of alltime status, on pace easily barring a blowed out knee or something of that nature

DR J is right there with'em both and a couple others

PIPPEN can be said but he was a developing player who turned into a good player/6time champ, cant really compare a developing type vs franchise type...its disrespectful to BIRD/BRON/JULIUS,by the time PIPPEN came around into his own those guys were league MVP's/allnba caliber players in that same time span...

xcrisisx
09-27-2012, 10:15 AM
On a side note no love for Pippen?


he was the second guy on the team for most of his carreer...

IndyRealist
09-27-2012, 10:20 AM
I think he's already the best SF of all time. No one puts up numbers like Lebron does. I think if he wins 3 or more championship he may go down as the GOAT period.

Bird put up better numbers. So did Elgin Baylor. Baylor averaged 27 and 14 for his career. He had one season of something like 36ppg 18rpg and 5apg. As a sf.

And if look beyond sf's, big O averaged a triple double for an entire season.

His stats are freakish, but it's been done before.

JordansBulls
09-27-2012, 10:23 AM
JB, what does your HCA formula say? I'll base it on HCA.



HCA(50+)/non-50
Bird: 10-6 / 14-1
Lebron: 2-3/ 10-0


So both were pretty good against non 50 win teams but Bird was better against better competition and this is including that Indiana was prorated to 50 wins+ last year otherwise Lebron would be 1-3 with HCA vs 50+ win teams.

JordansBulls
09-27-2012, 10:24 AM
Bird is first atleast for now right now I think LeBron and Dr.J are on the same level.

On a side note no love for Pippen?

I don't think any player that has never won multiple league and/or finals mvp is going to be #1 at his position all time.

ewing
09-27-2012, 10:27 AM
No. He is still behide Rex Chapmen

ewing
09-27-2012, 10:30 AM
Bird can't touch LeBron statistically, stick to your youtube links and intangible arguments.



Your terrible at trolling. His post had stats

jscaff
09-27-2012, 10:31 AM
He needs at least 3 championships to equal Bird and Worthy. In a game 7 championship I'd take Bird or Worthy in their prime over James ... that's the real test.

ewing
09-27-2012, 10:33 AM
It's a two part question in my opinion. Based on career is LeBron #2 SF or based on their prime abilities where does LeBron rank.

The first question I have LeBron #4. Behind Bird, Erving, and Pippen.

The second question I have LeBron 1st. He's the best basketball player I've ever seen. I have never seen one player excel at so many areas of the game. And still have room for improvement.


This is true. I have never seen anyone be as awesome as LeBron and have that much room for growth as a player. Last year was the first time i saw him flash to the post and move well without the ball. His post game has significant room for improvement as well.

ewing
09-27-2012, 10:36 AM
considering lebron is the arguably the greatest athletic player of all time, and bird the least, I'd say bird was a better player. by this stage in his carreer, lebron also hasn't reached bird's resumee, but he probably will when he's done. most people just overreact on stats. he might/ will be the greatest sf when he retires, just not right now

Yeah the 6'9 guy that could rebound, handle, had amazing hands, once in a life time court vision, and a ridiculously soft was the least athletic guy ever. :facepalm:

ZHawk1123
09-27-2012, 10:39 AM
1. Bird
2. James
3. Erving
4. Wilkins
5. Gervin

thenaj17
09-27-2012, 10:45 AM
It's not even a contest who the better player is at their primes. Larry Bird was nowhere near as talented as LeBron is. To answer the question, LeBron is THE best SF of all time already.

In terms of achievements, Bird is still ahead but look at the team he had around him compared to others. For all the people downplaying Kobe Bryant's rings due to teammates, you cannot ignore the fact Bird had a more dominant team around him than any other star in history.

xcrisisx
09-27-2012, 10:45 AM
4. Wilkins
5. Gervin


these 2 scorers over hondo, baylor and the big O...
kidding?

ZHawk1123
09-27-2012, 10:56 AM
these 2 scorers over hondo, baylor and the big O...
kidding?

Forgot about Baylor... But yes to Nique over Hondo and Big O...

Big O was a guard man...

ewing
09-27-2012, 11:00 AM
It's not even a contest who the better player is at their primes. Larry Bird was nowhere near as talented as LeBron is. To answer the question, LeBron is THE best SF of all time already.

In terms of achievements, Bird is still ahead but look at the team he had around him compared to others. For all the people downplaying Kobe Bryant's rings due to teammates, you cannot ignore the fact Bird had a more dominant team around him than any other star in history.


I don't know if they were more dominate then the Laker team they had to play against all the time. It was a golden era with significantly less teams and a top heavy league. Of course the 80's Celt were deeper but that's irreverent so were the teams they was competing against.

Big Zo
09-27-2012, 11:30 AM
He needs at least 3 championships to equal Bird and Worthy. In a game 7 championship I'd take Bird or Worthy in their prime over James ... that's the real test.

He needs at least 3 TEAM accomplishments to equal the SKILL of past greats... Is what I just read. :eyebrow:

bagwell368
09-27-2012, 11:40 AM
Yeah the 6'9 guy that could rebound, handle, had amazing hands, once in a life time court vision, and a ridiculously soft was the least athletic guy ever. :facepalm:

Watch Bird before 1987. He wasn't slow - that doesn't mean he was fast however. The Celts ran a lot and he led the break with the ball or on the wing. His 1 on 1 went to hell after '86, but before that he was decent, and great at his one foot in the lane - grab a dreb, grab a pass, draw a foul - whatever was needed.

bagwell368
09-27-2012, 11:48 AM
I don't know if they were more dominate then the Laker team they had to play against all the time. It was a golden era with significantly less teams and a top heavy league. Of course the 80's Celt were deeper but that's irreverent so were the teams they was competing against.

Best team of all time is either the '85 Lakers or the '86 Celts. '86 Celts secret weapon was Walton who Jabbar had a very tough time with, unlike Parish who he dominated at will.

Bird top 10 player in his best year - or near to it
McHale top 35 player all time, having his best year (by far)
DJ having a typical vet DJ year
Parish having a good year
Ainge hustling around and annoying everybody
Walton.

That's 5 HOF'ers Billy Bob. None of the Bulls team can match up. Who BTW is going to cover McHale? Or Parish for that matter? Rodman? McHale ate him up - oh yes - look up head to head and that was mostly in McHale's decline years.

ewing
09-27-2012, 11:56 AM
Watch Bird before 1987. He wasn't slow - that doesn't mean he was fast however. The Celts ran a lot and he led the break with the ball or on the wing. His 1 on 1 went to hell after '86, but before that he was decent, and great at his one foot in the lane - grab a dreb, grab a pass, draw a foul - whatever was needed.


I think we are agreeing. I facepalmed the guy that said Bird wasn't athletic. :)

Highlight
09-27-2012, 12:05 PM
In terms of achievements, Bird is still more decorated, but just using the eyeball test, James is on a different planet. As long as he continues at the current pace he's going, he'll be the GOAT SF.

That said, Bird is still far more proven than James in the playoffs. Bird was known for having ice in his veins, while James has shown far less earlier in his career. With a few more years like this past one, he'll obviously be more proven.

D.O.N.
09-27-2012, 12:13 PM
I always viewed Bird as a pf. Probably 'cause i never watched him play, but Lebron has to behind him if we look at him as a sf.

Also i would take elgin baylor and julius erving above him (just basaed on stats)

By the and of his career he would the the all time best, but for now i have him as #4, i'm not sure though lebron probably is the best defender out of the 4 and his offensive number are also impressive, but he is in his prime. His numbers will probably go down a little by the end of hes career so IDK to be honest

lilchuckdoubles
09-27-2012, 12:19 PM
I think the people who say bron is over bird or bron just needs one more championship to be the best are kind of jus stuck in the moment. Bird was before my time but jus based off watching old games and documentarys on nba tv, it seems to me that in prime bird wasn't that much less of a player then in prime mj was. i think it'll take bron more then one more title to be called best sf all-time, he's needs to atleast tie larry-legenends ring count.

valade16
09-27-2012, 12:40 PM
Ask yourself, what other SF besides Bird was ever considered hands down, no argument the absolute best player in the league for more than a single year?

I do not like LeBron James, but he is most likely the 2nd best SF already, with a good shot at best SF ever.

b@llhog24
09-27-2012, 12:41 PM
What stats would those be?

FG% - no
3PT%? - no
FT% - no
Reb% - no


PER, WS, WS/48, AST%. Not sure why we're just quoting random stats though.


Also, do remember to look at Bird at the same years LBJ has in - Bird had a decline that hurt his numbers, no telling on LBJ.

I know, but Bird's best year statistically was in 88, that would probably be Lbj's 3rd or 4th best season, statistically speaking off course.


BTW, if you never saw Bird a lot, then your youtube comment makes no sense.

No the poster in question typically uses youtube links (most of them irrelevant imo) to argue his points.



Your terrible at trolling. His post had stats

He openly mocks those same stats that he quoted, yet uses them when they coincide with his opinion. :facepalm:

b@llhog24
09-27-2012, 12:42 PM
Ask yourself, what other SF besides Bird was ever considered hands down, no argument the absolute best player in the league for more than a single year?

I do not like LeBron James, but he is most likely the 2nd best SF already, with a good shot at best SF ever.

Bingo.

Da Knicks
09-27-2012, 12:57 PM
1. Bird
2. Dr J
3. Elgin
4. Bron

GrkGawdofWalkz
09-27-2012, 01:00 PM
I don't like Lebron, I won't ever like Lebron. But, he did prove his mental toughness in the championship round and in the Eastern Conference Finals. At the end of the day he's one of the best players to ever play. He's not clutch enough for me to want him having the ball in the final seconds. That's easy Kobe, MJ, Bird. Bird did not just reignite basketball but he made it fun on every level. He was a competitor through and through. Pippen is in the mix of the top 10 where he justifiably belongs but he didn't ever win without Michael and while he was a great player I think he's around 5th all time. Havlicek, Baylor, Dr J all pass Pippen easily. I would take Pippen on post defense and three point shooting ahead of Lebron. Lebron is the guy in the box as a guy who can just get in the head of about anyone. He's going to end up #2 on this list easily. I don't think he'll pass Bird outside of stats. Larry was the bigger winner.

Spencesc11
09-27-2012, 01:09 PM
Larry Bird and Julius Erving still have a better resume as of now. But when he is done he should go down as the best at that position. Bird was clutch and a great shooter but Lebron's all around game will make him shine above even Larry when it's all said and done.

All-Time Dream Team

Magic, Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, and B. Russell

Now that's a team that would know how to win.

valade16
09-27-2012, 01:09 PM
Did people not see that Dagger 3-Pointer LeBron made on that gimp leg? That was absolutely clutch. That was one of those, dagger in the heart, sinking feeling in your chest, series over makes.

LeBron went a long way to dispelling the idea he isn't clutch with that shot.

Mr. LA
09-27-2012, 01:23 PM
1. It's questionable that Lebron James is the 2nd best SF in the NBA right now
2. He is clearly behind Larry Bird
3. I'd put him around 5th right now which isn't bad obviously
4. When you say already, what do you mean exactly? Lebron is almost 28 and with style of play, I think he'll only be in his prime until he's like 32.
5. However I think he'll end up just behind Larry Bird.. Lebron might get 1 more championship...I think the Lakers will win the next one and likely another 1 or 2 after that, then the thunder will take over, by that time who knows....the bobcats might have Lebron James by that point you never know

Mr. LA
09-27-2012, 01:25 PM
Larry Bird and Julius Erving still have a better resume as of now. But when he is done he should go down as the best at that position. Bird was clutch and a great shooter but Lebron's all around game will make him shine above even Larry when it's all said and done.

All-Time Dream Team

Magic, Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, and B. Russell

Now that's a team that would know how to win.

Johnson, Jordan, Bryant, Malone, Chamberlin I'd go with that!

UPRock
09-27-2012, 01:38 PM
1. It's questionable that Lebron James is the 2nd best SF in the NBA right now
2. He is clearly behind Larry Bird
3. I'd put him around 5th right now which isn't bad obviously
4. When you say already, what do you mean exactly? Lebron is almost 28 and with style of play, I think he'll only be in his prime until he's like 32.
5. However I think he'll end up just behind Larry Bird.. Lebron might get 1 more championship...I think the Lakers will win the next one and likely another 1 or 2 after that, then the thunder will take over, by that time who knows....the bobcats might have Lebron James by that point you never know


Johnson, Jordan, Bryant, Malone, Chamberlin I'd go with that!

LOL Dude everytime I read your posts it makes me laught with your homerism, I think you and D12 are the same person.

NYYCowboys
09-27-2012, 01:44 PM
As someone else already said...

Yeah it's pretty easy to take random stats from one year and not post stats of the other guy and say Bird is better. Let me try.

Career Stats:

James 0.233 WS/48, 27.2 PER, .569 TS%, .516 eFG%, 34.1 AST%

Bird 0.203 WS/48, 23.5 PER, .564 TS%, .514 eFG%, 24.7 AST%

JasonJohnHorn
09-27-2012, 01:51 PM
LBJ has proved that he is as good a passer than Bird and could score as much, but Bird was the better shooter and a far better rebounder. Bird had a higher basketball IQ, but LBJ is the better defender and obviously more athletic. It would be hard to pick between the two. The thing with Larry is that for the last 3-4 seasons of his career he was battling a bad back and his numbers took a dive, and people seem to b stuck with how he ended his career and not what he did during his prime. I dunno who I would take. I think Bird because he was such a great shooter and rebounder, but LBJ is such a strong defender... but Bird was such a great closer to...

Hawkeye15
09-27-2012, 02:00 PM
Yes, Bron is already the 2nd best SF to play in the NBA. He will be #1 most likely, in a few years.

ewing
09-27-2012, 02:03 PM
LBJ has proved that he is as good a passer than Bird and could score as much, but Bird was the better shooter and a far better rebounder. Bird had a higher basketball IQ, but LBJ is the better defender and obviously more athletic. It would be hard to pick between the two. The thing with Larry is that for the last 3-4 seasons of his career he was battling a bad back and his numbers took a dive, and people seem to b stuck with how he ended his career and not what he did during his prime. I dunno who I would take. I think Bird because he was such a great shooter and rebounder, but LBJ is such a strong defender... but Bird was such a great closer to...

Le Bron is a great passer and IMO creates more with his passing b/c of his speed, physical dominance, and time his spends with the ball. That said Bird definitely had better eyes and was a better pure passer. Le Bron is great and definitely the 2nd best SF I've ever seen. One day he might be the GOAT but he'll never have better eyes then Larry Bird

ZHawk1123
09-27-2012, 02:04 PM
Le Bron...

cuttydoesit6
09-27-2012, 02:14 PM
ervin
lebron
bird
pippen

sooo yea, he'll be the best sf of all time in about 3 more seasons of dominance

Mr. LA
09-27-2012, 02:14 PM
LOL Dude everytime I read your posts it makes me laught with your homerism, I think you and D12 are the same person.

umm ok???? what homerism did I just express exactly?

looka09
09-27-2012, 02:41 PM
How many nba titles and mvp's Erving has?

Hawkeye15
09-27-2012, 02:51 PM
How many nba titles and mvp's Erving has?

1 each. Moses was the Finals MVP in that championship as well.

Safe to say, as far as NBA careers only, a case can not be made for Erving over LeBron.

Alayla
09-27-2012, 03:01 PM
you guys are looking at it the wrong way another ring isnt what LBJ needs whats really imporant is that he finally masters his 3 point jump shot if he wants to pass Dr j and bird imo

Hawkeye15
09-27-2012, 03:33 PM
you guys are looking at it the wrong way another ring isnt what LBJ needs whats really imporant is that he finally masters his 3 point jump shot if he wants to pass Dr j and bird imo

Dr J had a three point shot? Did he pass well? Was he all world defense?

Bird was nothing close to the defender LeBron is. But I still need a little more time before I put LeBron past Bird.

abe_froman
09-27-2012, 03:35 PM
yeah,thought he had that title a couple years ago

mrblisterdundee
09-27-2012, 04:41 PM
All it will take is time, then James will be seen as better than Bird. James took off earlier than Bird. The only reason he didn't win a championship within his first seven years was because he was in Cleveland, the dead zone for all sporting success. Looking back, I have to say he gave it a fair shot in Cleveland. The team just wasn't good enough besides him.

Jesse2272
09-27-2012, 04:57 PM
Skill set wise hes the best Ive ever seen

todu82
09-27-2012, 04:58 PM
He's not the 2nd best SF of all time just yet but if he continues to play the same way for the rest of his career as he has the past few years then he's on his way to being the best.

xILLN355
09-27-2012, 05:46 PM
never seen bird play so i cant answer this

IKnowHoops
09-27-2012, 05:57 PM
Bird in his prime :drool:

30 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 53% FG, 40% 3PT, 92% FT

.608 TS%, .556 eFG%, .243 WS/48...

With a clutch gene on top of it all.

Yeah.

Very very impressive. I'd still take Lebron easily over bird just because hes a complete freak of nature from an athletic standpoint. His ability to erase fast break points defensively and ability to defend all five positions better than anyone else can defend there own is what makes it so easy for me. Offensively he just is the best starter/finisher of all time. And hes just the most impressive athlete Ive ever seen. No disrespect to the great Larry Bird, but when I give both the eye test, Its easily Lebron James.

JasonJohnHorn
09-27-2012, 06:00 PM
WTF is up with people put Dr. J first? Seriously? His ABA numbers were inflated because he was playing in an inferior league at the time. Big fish small pond. In the NBA, he was awesome. Great rebounder FOR HIS POSITION and solid passer, but didn't do either as well as LBJ and Bird (well, he was likely as good a rebound as James at least). Obviously when it comes to scoring, Dr. J could do it with the best of them. He played on an 76ers team that also featured Moses Malone, so like Wade this past season, he was not going to be getting enough shots to league the lead in scoring, but he was capable of going on for 30+ on any given night. But seriously... ahead of Bird and LBJ? No way. He might have been more entertaining to watch than either of them, but no way did he do more on the court overall. And yes, his ABA rebounding number were amazing, but that was the ABA?

JordansBulls
09-27-2012, 06:21 PM
I know, but Bird's best year statistically was in 88, that would probably be Lbj's 3rd or 4th best season, statistically speaking off course.





The difference is here that Bird had prime MJ, Magic, Hakeem, Moses Malone in the league which is why his PER is not as high. While Lebron doesn't have that type of personnel to deal with as far as stats. Now like I mentioned before if this were say 2003 when Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Tmac, Garnett were in there primes then you could use that logic with Bird.

Corey
09-27-2012, 07:04 PM
Yeah it's pretty easy to take random stats from one year and not post stats of the other guy and say Bird is better. Let me try.

Career Stats:

James 0.233 WS/48, 27.2 PER, .569 TS%, .516 eFG%, 34.1 AST%

Bird 0.203 WS/48, 23.5 PER, .564 TS%, .514 eFG%, 24.7 AST%

And career stats with Bird factor in the decline at the end of his career. Something that hasn't factored into Lebron's averages yet. Derp.

Also, as I explicitly stated, BIRD'S PRIME:


Bird in his prime :drool:

30 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 53% FG, 40% 3PT, 92% FT

.608 TS%, .556 eFG%, .243 WS/48...

With a clutch gene on top of it all.

Yeah.

b@llhog24
09-27-2012, 07:57 PM
The difference is here that Bird had prime MJ, Magic, Hakeem, Moses Malone in the league which is why his PER is not as high. While Lebron doesn't have that type of personnel to deal with as far as stats. Now like I mentioned before if this were say 2003 when Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Tmac, Garnett were in there primes then you could use that logic with Bird.

Ok.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-27-2012, 08:05 PM
Larry Bird is a poor man's Brian Scalabrine.

Doogolas
09-27-2012, 08:30 PM
Why is it "already"? He's been in the league like, a decade now.

looka09
09-27-2012, 08:50 PM
People that think that Earving was better,where they rank him at an all-time list?

bagwell368
09-27-2012, 10:55 PM
I always viewed Bird as a pf. Probably 'cause i never watched him play, but Lebron has to behind him if we look at him as a sf.

Also i would take elgin baylor and julius erving above him (just basaed on stats)

By the and of his career he would the the all time best, but for now i have him as #4, i'm not sure though lebron probably is the best defender out of the 4 and his offensive number are also impressive, but he is in his prime. His numbers will probably go down a little by the end of hes career so IDK to be honest

Bird played point forward/small forward on offense always. If McHale or Maxwell were in the game - either way.

On D, Bird would take the bigger guys (say Caldwell Jones or Bobby Jones) if Maxwell was out with him. If McHale was on the floor with him, he always drew the tougher assignment regardless of size or position, and Bird took the other guy.

No doubt physically LBJ has the edge, but it's a game with one ball and 4 teammates, and Bird was able to do more things to help his team win then LBJ.

I watched the Celts twice and Denver once make mincemeat out of James 3 times in the last 5 years in the playoffs. Bird never took the gas pipe like that even once in his prime '80-'88. Think about that.

bagwell368
09-27-2012, 10:57 PM
WTF is up with people put Dr. J first? Seriously? His ABA numbers were inflated because he was playing in an inferior league at the time. Big fish small pond. In the NBA, he was awesome. Great rebounder FOR HIS POSITION and solid passer, but didn't do either as well as LBJ and Bird (well, he was likely as good a rebound as James at least). Obviously when it comes to scoring, Dr. J could do it with the best of them. He played on an 76ers team that also featured Moses Malone, so like Wade this past season, he was not going to be getting enough shots to league the lead in scoring, but he was capable of going on for 30+ on any given night. But seriously... ahead of Bird and LBJ? No way. He might have been more entertaining to watch than either of them, but no way did he do more on the court overall. And yes, his ABA rebounding number were amazing, but that was the ABA?

100% right

Erving was a great HOF player, but he's got no business at #1.

Hawkeye15
09-28-2012, 01:16 AM
100% right

Erving was a great HOF player, but he's got no business at #1.

Didn't I just say that like 4 pages ago hahaha.

LeBron will pass Bird eventually, maybe 2-3 years down the line (remember, Larry's career was cut short). But Erving, if we are basing on NBA career only, has no business in the top 2, let alone top 3 for SF's. His 1 MVP and 1 Finals win, with Moses winning MVP, discard him from this conversation, on top of his statistical output not matching either Bird, or LeBron. Hell, there may be a couple others I take ahead of Julius. Not his fault his career timeline went through the ABA/NBA and his best days were possibly in the ABA, but this is an NBA convo.

amos1er
09-28-2012, 01:22 AM
Yeah it's pretty easy to take random stats from one year and not post stats of the other guy and say Bird is better. Let me try.

Career Stats:

James 0.233 WS/48, 27.2 PER, .569 TS%, .516 eFG%, 34.1 AST%

Bird 0.203 WS/48, 23.5 PER, .564 TS%, .514 eFG%, 24.7 AST%

Talk about taking random stats. :rolleyes:

Teeboy1487
09-28-2012, 01:24 AM
Of course. 3 MVPs and a ring. He will pass Bird.

bootleg42
09-28-2012, 01:29 AM
Larry Bird couldn't defend very well so I'd say LeBron is ahead of him, and is the greatest SF ever. BUT I'm still disappointed he made the super team with Wade and Bosh, so that'll always be an issue for me.

amos1er
09-28-2012, 01:31 AM
And career stats with Bird factor in the decline at the end of his career. Something that hasn't factored into Lebron's averages yet. Derp.

Also, as I explicitly stated, BIRD'S PRIME:

Yup...I was going to mention that it's pretty foolish to accuse me of taking "random" stats and then reply with more random stats that don't take into account Larry's final injury plagued years. If we are going to compare careers, the most fair option would be to take ALL STATISTICAL CATEGORIES and only compare Birds first 9 years because thats how many years Lebron has played in the NBA. Lebron is at an unfair advantage in that his career numbers don't reflect the same final declining years that affect Birds career numbers. Lets wait for Lebron to finish his career before we start comparing his career stats to Birds.

Hawkeye15
09-28-2012, 01:38 AM
Yup...I was going to mention that it's pretty foolish to accuse me of taking "random" stats and then reply with more random stats that don't take into account Larry's final injury plagued years. The most fair option would be to take ALL STATISTICAL CATEGORIES and only compare Birds first 9 years because thats how many years Lebron has played in the NBA. Lastly, and more importantly, Lebron is at an unfair advantage in career numbers because he isn't subject to the same declining final years that Bird was in his career stats as he hasn't played his whole career yet. Lets wait for Lebron to finish his career before we start comparing his career stats to Birds.

Bird had a very short career for a superstar, so his dog years had a MUCH larger impact then LeBron's will have. Don't expect LeBron's overall numbers to take that hit, unless he too gets hurt asap.

I am sure you understand what I mean, but for the idiots, I need to spell it out. LeBron passes games played by Larry by age 29. He will still be piling on huge years for another 3-4 years, minimum, while Bird was already effing up his career numbers. When LeBron finally does decline, he will have so much statistical input into his career numbers as absolutely elite, he won't get the drag down Bird did.

Larry had 7 seasons with a WS/48 over .200. Bron already has 7, with 2 of them nearing the .300 mark, and one over .300. Bron's overall numbers, unless he suffers an injury extremely soon and still tries to gimp it around for another 3-5 years, will crush Bird's within 3 years.

RipCity32
09-28-2012, 01:50 AM
I would honestlty say Lebron is the best SF of alltime already but its just hard to say with his career still going,Lebron is just a dominant beast.

amos1er
09-28-2012, 02:19 AM
Bird had a very short career for a superstar, so his dog years had a MUCH larger impact then LeBron's will have. Don't expect LeBron's overall numbers to take that hit, unless he too gets hurt asap.

I am sure you understand what I mean, but for the idiots, I need to spell it out. LeBron passes games played by Larry by age 29. He will still be piling on huge years for another 3-4 years, minimum, while Bird was already effing up his career numbers. When LeBron finally does decline, he will have so much statistical input into his career numbers as absolutely elite, he won't get the drag down Bird did.

Larry had 7 seasons with a WS/48 over .200. Bron already has 7, with 2 of them nearing the .300 mark, and one over .300. Bron's overall numbers, unless he suffers an injury extremely soon and still tries to gimp it around for another 3-5 years, will crush Bird's within 3 years.

Thats all true, but Larry has accomplished more in his prime years than Lebron. We still have yet to see Lebron face a great rival or opponent in the ECF or finals. Bird has risen to have some of the greatest performances in NBA history against the best competition the league has had to offer. We still have yet to see if Lebron could do the same or better against as great of opponents. Not saying that he can't, just saying that the jury is still out. Bird is battle tested against the best of the best.

Hawkeye15
09-28-2012, 04:07 AM
Thats all true, but Larry has accomplished more in his prime years than Lebron. We still have yet to see Lebron face a great rival or opponent in the ECF or finals. Bird has risen to have some of the greatest performances in NBA history against the best competition the league has had to offer. We still have yet to see if Lebron could do the same or better against as great of opponents. Not saying that he can't, just saying that the jury is still out. Bird is battle tested against the best of the best.

Sooo, now you are referring to the state of basketball then versus now? Tell me, what vicious rivals did Kobe face?

Sorry dude, expansion caused great players to spread more. Its the new world, where young people have no loyalty, so free agency means exponentially more then it did in those days.

Fact is, you continue to make excuses for your Bron bias. I have been called the same, however I provide actual intellect when it comes to Kobe. Can't say you, or many do the same when it comes to LeBron. We are witnessing the next all timer right now. Deny away, its happening.

Jesse2272
09-28-2012, 06:36 AM
We are witnessing the next all timer right now. Deny away, its happening.

Awesome!

thenaj17
09-28-2012, 06:58 AM
Bird has the edge in FG%, 3pt % and FT%, all on volume. So Bird was a better scorer.

If you don't count Bird's injured year where he played 6 games, his worst rebounding year was 8.5rpg. Lebron's best year is 7.9rpg. Bird averaged 10rpg for his career. So Bird was a better rebounder.

Lebron is absolutely a better defender, but Bird was no slouch. And surprisingly, for their careers they averaged the same number of blocks and steals per game.

Then there's the clutch thing. And the rings thing.

And that brings up an interesting question. Would Lebron get 3 rings in the 80's, going up against Magic, Drexler, Hakeem, Barkley, Dominique, Jordan, and Isiah?

Don't give the ridiculous stat arguments like that. There were far less good players then (less depth at least), less athleticism. If LeBron played then, he would have averaged more RPG than he does now. The eras are not comparable in that respect.

looka09
09-28-2012, 07:06 AM
People that think that Erving was better,where they rank him at an all-time list?

Can someone answer me this?

thenaj17
09-28-2012, 07:24 AM
Sooo, now you are referring to the state of basketball then versus now? Tell me, what vicious rivals did Kobe face?

Sorry dude, expansion caused great players to spread more. Its the new world, where young people have no loyalty, so free agency means exponentially more then it did in those days.

Fact is, you continue to make excuses for your Bron bias. I have been called the same, however I provide actual intellect when it comes to Kobe. Can't say you, or many do the same when it comes to LeBron. We are witnessing the next all timer right now. Deny away, its happening.

Couldn't agree more Hawkeye!

LBJ6
09-28-2012, 07:36 AM
I think he already is the Best SF of all time.

Lakerfan In NY
09-28-2012, 09:55 AM
Let me say this 1st: I HATE THE CELTICS!!! But LBJ is not passed a prime Bird. Forget all that stats crap. Bird had that special fire that all the true greats have. I don't see that from LBJ. Bird was an assassins. I hated & loved every minute of watching him play(before the back injury.)

LakersMaster24
09-28-2012, 09:59 AM
Bird is better so far.

3ballbomber
09-28-2012, 10:09 AM
Joke thread. it was only last year when this cat was shamed by his own acts and performance or lack there of when things really counted. He finally wins a title w/ help from the zebra's & his super team mates and now he is close to being the best SF ever? Not so quick. Still ALOT to prove................not even close gentlemen.

bucketss
09-28-2012, 11:03 AM
Joke thread. it was only last year when this cat was shamed by his own acts and performance or lack there of when things really counted. He finally wins a title w/ help from the zebra's & his super team mates and now he is close to being the best SF ever? Not so quick. Still ALOT to prove................not even close gentlemen.

instead of making excuses for why he won the championship you should stop being so bitter and consider yourself lucky to be watching a legend before the prime a killer before the crime a BIG before the dime.

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 11:07 AM
Joke thread. it was only last year when this cat was shamed by his own acts and performance or lack there of when things really counted. He finally wins a title w/ help from the zebra's & his super team mates and now he is close to being the best SF ever? Not so quick. Still ALOT to prove................not even close gentlemen.

x2

Well put.

I ask everyone opining on this thread look at LBJ's playoff stat line game by game over the last 5 seasons. Then grab Bird's 7 year run from 1981-1987, and do the same. Then get some film to fill in the blanks. Noway as of today career or peak LBJ can touch Bird. It's nonsense.

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 11:20 AM
instead of making excuses for why he won the championship you should stop being so bitter and consider yourself lucky to be watching a legend before the prime a killer before the crime a BIG before the dime.

Sorry, but I agree, in a sport with lots of crappy calls and officials, the calls LBJ in particular and the Heat in general got were beyond the pale. Too bad, even w/o the help they could have won, and it wouldn't appear so tainted to those that are not Heat apologists.

JordansBulls
09-28-2012, 12:24 PM
I think he already is the Best SF of all time.

Of course you do, you just became a fan in July 2010 and you even said it before that you just became a fan in July 2010.

Swashcuff
09-28-2012, 12:32 PM
Sorry, but I agree, in a sport with lots of crappy calls and officials, the calls LBJ in particular and the Heat in general got were beyond the pale. Too bad, even w/o the help they could have won, and it wouldn't appear so tainted to those that are not Heat apologists.

1. Where does LeBron rank on your SF list?
2. Will he ever be able to pass Bird in your opinion and if yes what does he have to do?

Chronz
09-28-2012, 01:10 PM
Thats all true, but Larry has accomplished more in his prime years than Lebron.
Well yea but thats only because Bron is just getting started, there is no denying that hes on a pace well beyond Bird. Even Bird himself thinks Bron just had one of the most dominant championship seasons we've ever witnessed so its not like Bron has to improve as a player to outlast Bird, he simply needs sustain his level of play for abit longer. I dont get into team predictions because we have no way of knowing the context that comes with it, the only thing a player can control is his own level of play on the court, so I tend to focus on that.


We still have yet to see Lebron face a great rival or opponent in the ECF or finals.
Even if that opinion held water, we have seen alot of stinkers from Bird as well. I personally think Bron has faced at least 3 great rivals (Detroit in the early days, Boston, Durant now), I get why that might not be to your liking but Bron cant control that (neither could MJ when they say his team never beat the Lakers/Celtics dynasty). When you examine every playoff run these 2 have ever had, I dont see why not having a "great rival" would matter much, particularly when Bird is putting up less production vs inferior defenses.



Bird has risen to have some of the greatest performances in NBA history against the best competition the league has had to offer.
Bron played tougher defenses and didn't see his production dwindle to the degree Bird did. So why would I doubt the guy whos taking on better defenses and performing better?



We still have yet to see if Lebron could do the same or better against as great of opponents. Not saying that he can't, just saying that the jury is still out. Bird is battle tested against the best of the best.
Bird is battle tested, but that comes with a finished product, with regards to Bron's place in history, Bird has placed the bar pretty low with his short prime and playoff blunders, so unless your trying to give him extra credit for getting injured, I dont see this insurmountable cliff for Bron, surpassing Bird in terms of career rankings will be a huge get for him, but I would be disappointed as a fan if thats all he accomplished given the pace and standard he set in his phenom days.

Chronz
09-28-2012, 01:18 PM
Sorry, but I agree, in a sport with lots of crappy calls and officials, the calls LBJ in particular and the Heat in general got were beyond the pale. Too bad, even w/o the help they could have won, and it wouldn't appear so tainted to those that are not Heat apologists.

Assuming I bought into whatever degree of power those calls held in the end, how would you separate them from the player? Couldn't I simply argue its part of the package? Like when I hear JJH argue about MJ's teams getting friendly whistles, Im expecting that to come with my superior superstar. Its part of the impact he has on the NBA GAME.

So pretending there was some shameful, and largely influential figure controlling the outcome, its still a product of having LeBron.

Its why I have decided not to bother with the conspiracy theorist this year, in the end we will never see eye to eye and in the end it still holds no merit on gauging an individual. Focusing on the Bron gets ref help angle does Bird a disservice. Surely there are better things to argue about than that

JordansBulls
09-28-2012, 02:03 PM
Say you replaced Bird with Lebron?

How many titles for the Celtics in the 80's.

Here is an example of a poster who used Lebron as a rookie for the 1980 Celtics and so forth.


guy1 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:19 pm

(04 Lebron) 80 Lakers over Sixers
(05 Lebron) 81 Sixers over Rockets
(06 Lebron) 82 Lakers over Sixers
(07 Lebron) 83 Sixers over Lakers
(08 Lebron) 84 Celtics over Lakers
(09 Lebron) 85 Lakers over Celtics
(10 Lebron) 86 Celtics over Rockets
(11 Lebron) 87 Lakers over Celtics
(12 Lebron) 88 Lakers over Celtics

Lebron wins MVP in 84, 85, and 86 as well.

xnick5757
09-28-2012, 02:23 PM
Bird in his prime :drool:

30 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 53% FG, 40% 3PT, 92% FT

.608 TS%, .556 eFG%, .243 WS/48...

With a clutch gene on top of it all.

Yeah.

bron at age 24:

28.4 PPG, 7.6 RPG, 7.2 APG, 49% FG, 34% 3PT, 78% FT

31.7 PER (4th highest all time), .591 TS%, .530 eFG%, .318 WS/48 (6th highest all time), 20.3 WS (17th highest all time)

blacknell
09-28-2012, 02:29 PM
he is already better than Larry bird

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 02:36 PM
1. Where does LeBron rank on your SF list?
2. Will he ever be able to pass Bird in your opinion and if yes what does he have to do?

LeBron has certainly shot up the list very quickly. He's probably got 4 more prime years left in him.

At the top of most of the positions there are a couple/five guys. Depending on preferences, and needs (if you are building say the best team of all time) come into play - and one guy might fit in one situation and not another.

So career wise, LBJ stays healthy for say 6 years, he's going to have Bird career wise. But what about peak? What about playoffs? Right now Bird owns those. We'll see.

My big concern on any new super stars over the years - like Bird made people forget to a large extent about Erving, is that the newer fans blow off the old guys - you know - Bird was an old slow white guy - so James must be better.

I'd like to hand out Bird homework to all the James fans - I mean if you are serious fan of the NBA, and not some trend follower that thinks whatever the announcers tell him (her).

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 02:48 PM
bron at age 24:

28.4 PPG, 7.6 RPG, 7.2 APG, 49% FG, 34% 3PT, 78% FT

31.7 PER (4th highest all time), .591 TS%, .530 eFG%, .318 WS/48 (6th highest all time), 20.3 WS (17th highest all time)

Bron's last 3 losing games against Orlando in the playoffs:

FG:

11 for 28 (.393) - lost by 10
13 for 29 (.448) - lost by 2
08 for 20 (.400) - lost by 13

A 66-16 team falls to a 59-23 team; LeBron > Howard, and the Cavs supporting cast stronger then Orlando - but still they lost in 6, and LeBron didn't shoot all that well, did he? Doesn't that tarnish the season?

JordansBulls
09-28-2012, 02:54 PM
he is already better than Larry bird

How so?

Swashcuff
09-28-2012, 02:59 PM
LeBron has certainly shot up the list very quickly. He's probably got 4 more prime years left in him.

At the top of most of the positions there are a couple/five guys. Depending on preferences, and needs (if you are building say the best team of all time) come into play - and one guy might fit in one situation and not another.

So career wise, LBJ stays healthy for say 6 years, he's going to have Bird career wise. But what about peak? What about playoffs? Right now Bird owns those. We'll see.

My big concern on any new super stars over the years - like Bird made people forget to a large extent about Erving, is that the newer fans blow off the old guys - you know - Bird was an old slow white guy - so James must be better.

I'd like to hand out Bird homework to all the James fans - I mean if you are serious fan of the NBA, and not some trend follower that thinks whatever the announcers tell him (her).

I'm always down for hearing the POV of those who have been watching the game much longer than me.

bucketss
09-28-2012, 03:03 PM
i think we all agree lebron is currently 2nd and will have a great chance at #1 when his career is over.

Chronz
09-28-2012, 03:06 PM
So career wise, LBJ stays healthy for say 6 years, he's going to have Bird career wise.
6? Why not 2 or 3?

mngopher35
09-28-2012, 03:36 PM
Bron's last 3 losing games against Orlando in the playoffs:

FG:

11 for 28 (.393) - lost by 10
13 for 29 (.448) - lost by 2
08 for 20 (.400) - lost by 13

A 66-16 team falls to a 59-23 team; LeBron > Howard, and the Cavs supporting cast stronger then Orlando - but still they lost in 6, and LeBron didn't shoot all that well, did he? Doesn't that tarnish the season?

Lebrons stats vs Orlando:
Game 1: 20/30 49 pts 6 rbs 8 ast Loss
Game 2: 12/23 35 pts 4 rbs 5 ast Win
Game 3: 11/28 41 pts 7 rbs 9 ast Loss
Game 4: 13/29 44 pts 12 rbs 7 ast Loss
Game 5: 11/24 37 pts 14 rbs 12 ast Win
Game 6: 8/20 25 pts 7 reb 7 ast Loss

So no I wouldnt say his play vs Orlando tarnished the season. Unless you think 75/154 (.487) 38.5 ppg 8.33 rpg and 8 apg is horrible for a series...

Swashcuff
09-28-2012, 03:48 PM
Bron's last 3 losing games against Orlando in the playoffs:

FG:

11 for 28 (.393) - lost by 10
13 for 29 (.448) - lost by 2
08 for 20 (.400) - lost by 13

A 66-16 team falls to a 59-23 team; LeBron > Howard, and the Cavs supporting cast stronger then Orlando - but still they lost in 6, and LeBron didn't shoot all that well, did he? Doesn't that tarnish the season?

You more so than most would know that there is more to the game than just looking at FG. That's a very very very poor way gauge his value IMO.

Chronz
09-28-2012, 03:48 PM
Lebrons stats vs Orlando:
Game 1: 20/30 49 pts 6 rbs 8 ast Loss
Game 2: 12/23 35 pts 4 rbs 5 ast Win
Game 3: 11/28 41 pts 7 rbs 9 ast Loss
Game 4: 13/29 44 pts 12 rbs 7 ast Loss
Game 5: 11/24 37 pts 14 rbs 12 ast Win
Game 6: 8/20 25 pts 7 reb 7 ast Loss

So no I wouldnt say his play vs Orlando tarnished the season. Unless you think 75/154 (.487) 38.5 ppg 8.33 rpg and 8 apg is horrible for a series...
I struggle admitting that was the best we've ever seen Bron play. Hes got the halo that comes with a title in 2012 but cmon now, the Cavs offense was clicking at its best so its not like his stats didnt produce results, it was the Cavs utter inability to contain Dwight Howard or the hot shooters that led to their downfall, it had nothing to do with their offense.

mngopher35
09-28-2012, 03:54 PM
Also if the losses in the playoffs discredit an entire season, then Birds 1988 season wouldnt count either?

Bird fg last 4 losses of 88 playoffs

8/20 40%
6/17 35%
9/25 36%
4/17 24%

See what I did there?

mngopher35
09-28-2012, 03:57 PM
I struggle admitting that was the best we've ever seen Bron play. Hes got the halo that comes with a title in 2012 but cmon now, the Cavs offense was clicking at its best so its not like his stats didnt produce results, it was the Cavs utter inability to contain Dwight Howard or the hot shooters that led to their downfall, it had nothing to do with their offense.

Lebron is becoming more of a complete player now, so I give the edge to this last season. I do agree it was pretty amazing watching him play with the cavs especially in 09 and 10. He did so much offensively for those teams it was awesome to watch.

amos1er
09-28-2012, 04:10 PM
Well yea but thats only because Bron is just getting started, there is no denying that hes on a pace well beyond Bird. Even Bird himself thinks Bron just had one of the most dominant championship seasons we've ever witnessed so its not like Bron has to improve as a player to outlast Bird, he simply needs sustain his level of play for abit longer. I dont get into team predictions because we have no way of knowing the context that comes with it, the only thing a player can control is his own level of play on the court, so I tend to focus on that.


Even if that opinion held water, we have seen alot of stinkers from Bird as well. I personally think Bron has faced at least 3 great rivals (Detroit in the early days, Boston, Durant now), I get why that might not be to your liking but Bron cant control that (neither could MJ when they say his team never beat the Lakers/Celtics dynasty). When you examine every playoff run these 2 have ever had, I dont see why not having a "great rival" would matter much, particularly when Bird is putting up less production vs inferior defenses.



Bron played tougher defenses and didn't see his production dwindle to the degree Bird did. So why would I doubt the guy whos taking on better defenses and performing better?



Bird is battle tested, but that comes with a finished product, with regards to Bron's place in history, Bird has placed the bar pretty low with his short prime and playoff blunders, so unless your trying to give him extra credit for getting injured, I dont see this insurmountable cliff for Bron, surpassing Bird in terms of career rankings will be a huge get for him, but I would be disappointed as a fan if thats all he accomplished given the pace and standard he set in his phenom days.

I never said that Bird would be an insurmountable cliff for Lebron. IMO 2 more rings and one more MVP or 3 more rings and zero MVP's is all he needs. Assuming at least one more finals MVP to go with either scenario. I'm sure that Lebron will also have him beat in longevity.

I just find it humorous that there are fans who currently overrate Lebron to the point where they say foolish things like. "Lebron has already surpassed Bird". If that were true, then Lebron would have to be a top 10 player of all-time already.

bucketss
09-28-2012, 04:11 PM
Also if the losses in the playoffs discredit an entire season, then Birds 1988 season wouldnt count either?

Bird fg last 4 losses of 88 playoffs

8/20 40%
6/17 35%
9/25 36%
4/17 24%

See what I did there?

:burn:

amos1er
09-28-2012, 04:13 PM
he is already better than Larry bird

This is exactly what I'm talking about. :facepalm:

Tell me...are Kobe fans really this bad?

bucketss
09-28-2012, 04:14 PM
I never said that Bird would be an insurmountable cliff for Lebron. IMO 2 more rings and one more MVP or 3 more rings and zero MVP's is all he needs. Assuming at least one more finals MVP to go with either scenario. I'm sure that Lebron will also have him beat in longevity.

I just find it humorous that there are fans who currently overrate Lebron to the point where they say foolish things like. "Lebron has already surpassed Bird". If that were true, then Lebron would have to be a top 10 player of all-time already.

2 more rings and one more mvp? it's inevitable i will be surprised if lebron isn't able to do that.

bucketss
09-28-2012, 04:15 PM
This is exactly what I'm talking about. :facepalm:

Tell me...are Kobe fans really this bad?

jesuswears24 has said many times kobe=goat

amos1er
09-28-2012, 04:31 PM
jesuswears24 has said many times kobe=goat

I guarantee if we started 2 polls and asking who was better between Kobe and Magic and Lebron and Bird...a greater amount of voter would choose Lebron over Bird than Kobe over Magic.

bucketss
09-28-2012, 04:35 PM
i think that already happened, kobe killed magic while lebron currently is getting killed by bird in the greatest sf thread.

mngopher35
09-28-2012, 05:11 PM
I guarantee if we started 2 polls and asking who was better between Kobe and Magic and Lebron and Bird...a greater amount of voter would choose Lebron over Bird than Kobe over Magic.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=696999&highlight=magic+kobe

Not exactly the same, but Kobe has 20 votes yes and 23 no. This doesnt show how many of the no's have magic as the one ahead of him though.

popo85
09-28-2012, 05:41 PM
Yup and when he's done he will be the best SF

agureghian
09-28-2012, 05:45 PM
:facepalm:


If he wins another championship it'll be safe to say he's the best SF of all time.

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 10:36 PM
Also if the losses in the playoffs discredit an entire season, then Birds 1988 season wouldnt count either?

Bird fg last 4 losses of 88 playoffs

8/20 40%
6/17 35%
9/25 36%
4/17 24%

See what I did there?

Yup, I did - which is why I talk about Bird's peak as 1981-1987.

Thanks for playing.

amos1er
09-28-2012, 10:46 PM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=696999&highlight=magic+kobe

Not exactly the same, but Kobe has 20 votes yes and 23 no. This doesnt show how many of the no's have magic as the one ahead of him though.

Not the same thing at all. Kobe's tenure with the Lakers had been much longer and than Magic's and is a big factor in why people could be justified to vote him the "greatest Laker" which has nothing to do with the criteria of who is higher on the all-time list.

BTW, I feel Magic was still the greatest Laker...second Kobe. Kobe would need one more title to overtake him.

bagwell368
09-28-2012, 10:47 PM
6? Why not 2 or 3?

My comment was not exclusive. I.E. I din't mean he HAD to have 6 prime years to pass Bird. I said (in another post) he should have 4 more peak years and two more very good seasons (by his standards) - during those 4 years at some point he would pass Bird. Everything beyond that would be icing on the cake.

It's not really important to me trying to pick that date now, just that if he's healthy it appears to be a done deal.

OTOH, the style of the two players is a lot different, as is the way they lead. Also if Lebron does not get at least two more rings that argument will nag as well.

Look at the Centers. Jabbar, Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq, Russell - many have those 5 as the best. Is there a clear slam dunk #1? Not to me, each has his points, nobody owns the #1. Personally I go for the most well rounded - IMO. Hakeem.

LBJ and Bird could go down like that - not clear. But if LBJ has two more injury free years, then 3 injury wracked years and retirement with just 1 more title - then what? No way LBJ will be clearly better - because Bird will have the titles, probably the playoff performances, and maybe the peak years over James, even if James has him by a bit career wise.

I'm just glad I got to see Bird play in person about 85 times, and James 6 so far.

mngopher35
09-29-2012, 12:28 AM
Yup, I did - which is why I talk about Bird's peak as 1981-1987.

Thanks for playing.

Ok my point with those posts (you ignored the one where I included all of Lebrons stats vs orlando) is that you tried to discredit him on fg% alone in 3 games of a series in which he played great. Bird had at least 3 years other than 88 (1987, 1985, 1984) during that prime where he had at least 3 poor shooting games in a final series (his team obviously won in 84 but it doesnt change his fg%). Do those season count or does this fg% thing only apply in certain situation?

You cannot discredit Lebrons 09 season based off of fg% for 3 games especially when he had a great series and playoffs as a whole.

ewing
09-29-2012, 12:39 AM
Very very impressive. I'd still take Lebron easily over bird just because hes a complete freak of nature from an athletic standpoint. His ability to erase fast break points defensively and ability to defend all five positions better than anyone else can defend there own is what makes it so easy for me. Offensively he just is the best starter/finisher of all time. And hes just the most impressive athlete Ive ever seen. No disrespect to the great Larry Bird, but when I give both the eye test, Its easily Lebron James.


What does n stater/finisher mean?

ewing
09-29-2012, 12:46 AM
Bird had a very short career for a superstar, so his dog years had a MUCH larger impact then LeBron's will have. Don't expect LeBron's overall numbers to take that hit, unless he too gets hurt asap.

I am sure you understand what I mean, but for the idiots, I need to spell it out. LeBron passes games played by Larry by age 29. He will still be piling on huge years for another 3-4 years, minimum, while Bird was already effing up his career numbers. When LeBron finally does decline, he will have so much statistical input into his career numbers as absolutely elite, he won't get the drag down Bird did.

Larry had 7 seasons with a WS/48 over .200. Bron already has 7, with 2 of them nearing the .300 mark, and one over .300. Bron's overall numbers, unless he suffers an injury extremely soon and still tries to gimp it around for another 3-5 years, will crush Bird's within 3 years.

Plus since LeBron is pure athlete and indestructible he will likely age well. He'll have a real post game the time he loses an full step, if he needs to he'll become more of a PF and he'll still be faster then 9 out of 10 PF's in the league. The guy is scary

ewing
09-29-2012, 12:48 AM
Don't give the ridiculous stat arguments like that. There were far less good players then (less depth at least), less athleticism. If LeBron played then, he would have averaged more RPG than he does now. The eras are not comparable in that respect.

How old are you? 12?

ewing
09-29-2012, 12:50 AM
Assuming I bought into whatever degree of power those calls held in the end, how would you separate them from the player? Couldn't I simply argue its part of the package? Like when I hear JJH argue about MJ's teams getting friendly whistles, Im expecting that to come with my superior superstar. Its part of the impact he has on the NBA GAME.

So pretending there was some shameful, and largely influential figure controlling the outcome, its still a product of having LeBron.

Its why I have decided not to bother with the conspiracy theorist this year, in the end we will never see eye to eye and in the end it still holds no merit on gauging an individual. Focusing on the Bron gets ref help angle does Bird a disservice. Surely there are better things to argue about than that

Good point

ewing
09-29-2012, 12:56 AM
[QUOTE=amos1er;23765858]I guarantee if we started 2 polls and asking who was better between Kobe and Magic and Lebron and Bird...a greater amount of voter would choose Lebron over Bird than Kobe over Magic.[/QUOTE


Unless you say Jordan i'm choosing Magic :)

ewing
09-29-2012, 01:02 AM
Not the same thing at all. Kobe's tenure with the Lakers had been much longer and than Magic's and is a big factor in why people could be justified to vote him the "greatest Laker" which has nothing to do with the criteria of who is higher on the all-time list.

BTW, I feel Magic was still the greatest Laker...second Kobe. Kobe would need one more title to overtake him.


Sorry i hate this kind of ****. I love Kobe but how does him winner another title make automatically better then Magic? If plays well but pulls a hammy in game 3 and then the Lakers pull out the final two wins lead by D12 and Nash is it a tie?

TheLegend
09-29-2012, 09:28 AM
The only reason one can rate Bird over Lebron is because Bird's career is set and done and Lebron's career is still ongoing. It's like two chefs in a cake making competition and one is finish and the other is half way done. So it's easy to say the finish cake is better. lol. I mean, that's not rocket scientist. But IMO, Lebron will surpass Bird if he stays the course at his level of play. One major drawback Bird when it's all set and done is he didn't play the defense that Lebron played, nor was he anywhere the athlete that Lebron is.


And one saying Lebron joining a super team to win is not going to fly because Kevin McHale and Robert Parish are HOF'ers hands down. Dennis Johnson and Ainge where some very good players.

xxplayerxx23
09-29-2012, 09:36 AM
Bird is still the best, Bron will prob be better by the end of his career

JordansBulls
09-29-2012, 02:26 PM
And one saying Lebron joining a super team to win is not going to fly because Kevin McHale and Robert Parish are HOF'ers hands down. Dennis Johnson and Ainge where some very good players.

Yes but they weren't proven winners or superstars before Bird was there. That is the difference. DJ was good, but he was no superstar before Bird or even during Bird.

TheLegend
09-29-2012, 03:27 PM
Yes but they weren't proven winners or superstars before Bird was there. That is the difference. DJ was good, but he was no superstar before Bird or even during Bird.

It doesn't matter. If they were superstars before he got there or what, the fact is Bird played with two HOF'ers. How and when isn't the point. And Bosh is not a superstar. Both Kevin Mchale and Robert Parish are both better than Bosh. And no one said DJ was a superstar, but him and Ainge were both better than Chalmers.

Ebbs
09-29-2012, 03:32 PM
Yes but they weren't proven winners or superstars before Bird was there. That is the difference. DJ was good, but he was no superstar before Bird or even during Bird.

How was Bosh or Wade a proven winner before hand? Wade won a championship with a very good supporting cast. No player wins on his own. Shaq was damn crucial to that ship

TheLegend
09-29-2012, 03:47 PM
Don't give the ridiculous stat arguments like that. There were far less good players then (less depth at least), less athleticism. If LeBron played then, he would have averaged more RPG than he does now. The eras are not comparable in that respect.

You are correct but for the wrong reasons. Competition then was just as it is now, competitive. And player's were more fundamental back then. The reason why LBJ doesn't avg. more rebounds is not because of the competition is so great, because Lebron could still avg. 10 rpg if he wanted to. The reason he doesn't is because he does so much more on defense, such as playing the passing lanes, and guarding all types of perimeter players, including PG's at times.

JordansBulls
09-29-2012, 03:54 PM
It doesn't matter. If they were superstars before he got there or what, the fact is Bird played with two HOF'ers. How and when isn't the point. And Bosh is not a superstar. Both Kevin Mchale and Robert Parish are both better than Bosh. And no one said DJ was a superstar, but him and Ainge were both better than Chalmers.

Hell yes it does matter, because anyone can play with a superstar from the get go, but not everyone aids in making others better to become stars. And the teams the Celtics played were much better than the teams the Heat played and Heat nearly still lost again.

JordansBulls
09-29-2012, 03:55 PM
How was Bosh or Wade a proven winner before hand? Wade won a championship with a very good supporting cast. No player wins on his own. Shaq was damn crucial to that ship

Wade won a title as the man for an organization that never won anything prior to him arriving. Not to mention Bosh led the Raptors to the playoffs as the man. Both Wade and Bosh were #2 and #4 in PER the season before the big 3 joined forces. That is proven.

Ebbs
09-29-2012, 03:58 PM
Bosh was a player good eough to take his team to the playoffs yea. He wasn't good enough to carry them much farther.

That Heat team never winning before made it a nicer moment but it doesn't make any difference in his ranking. Wade was the man for a Heat team that still had a very good Shaq and a monster amount of veterans who came together. Alonzo, GP, Antoine, Posey, Jason Williams, Eddie Jones? Am I missing anyone?

JordansBulls
09-29-2012, 04:01 PM
Bosh was a player good eough to take his team to the playoffs yea. He wasn't good enough to carry them much farther.

That Heat team never winning before made it a nicer moment but it doesn't make any difference in his ranking. Wade was the man for a Heat team that still had a very good Shaq and a monster amount of veterans who came together. Alonzo, GP, Antoine, Posey, Jason Williams, Eddie Jones? Am I missing anyone?

Neither was Mchale or Parish able to carry them much further. And yes winning a ring with a franchise that never won before makes a big difference, it shows you can take an organization that never won anything before to a title vs having to play for an organization known for winning in order to win.

smith&wesson
09-29-2012, 04:12 PM
To me he is the best small forward of all time.

lebron would eat birds food. ya i said it. imagine bird with lebron gaurding him ??

Ebbs
09-29-2012, 04:12 PM
Neither was Mchale or Parish able to carry them much further. And yes winning a ring with a franchise that never won before makes a big difference, it shows you can take an organization that never won anything before to a title vs having to play for an organization known for winning in order to win.

lol no it doesn't. If Wade went to Philadelphia lets say and he won a ring with Shaq and company there opposed to Miami it makes no difference in his all time perspective on greatness. It's a nicer, happier story maybe but it makes 0 difference.

Chronz
09-29-2012, 04:14 PM
Neither was Mchale or Parish able to carry them much further.
Can you explain what you mean here? A past his Prime McHale that could no longer defend with a 35 year old Robert Parish were able to make the playoffs without Bird, you dont think they could get past the first round if they were in their primes?


And yes winning a ring with a franchise that never won before makes a big difference, it shows you can take an organization that never won anything before to a title vs having to play for an organization known for winning in order to win.
I dont see how that means anything, sounds more like timing to me. I rather focus on the actual impact of the player.

JordansBulls
09-29-2012, 04:15 PM
lol no it doesn't. If Wade went to Philadelphia lets say and he won a ring with Shaq and company there opposed to Miami it makes no difference in his all time perspective on greatness. It's a nicer, happier story maybe but it makes 0 difference.

Sure it does it adds to your legacy when you can win with a franchise that never won before. It means more when players are relatively same level. So Isiah Thomas winning with Detroit doesn't help him in a debate over Magic Johnson as they aren't the same level. But Hakeem winning with Houston can put him over Shaq or Duncan winning with SA can put him over Shaq as they won with franchises that never won prior to them arriving and all 3 are roughly same level.

Chronz
09-29-2012, 04:15 PM
lol no it doesn't. If Wade went to Philadelphia lets say and he won a ring with Shaq and company there opposed to Miami it makes no difference in his all time perspective on greatness. It's a nicer, happier story maybe but it makes 0 difference.

Correct, different jerseys doesnt matter more than the names on the back of those jerseys. If those are different THEN its a different game.

Ebbs
09-29-2012, 04:17 PM
I disagree. You're lost in like the myth and legend of basketball rather than reality I think JB.

ewing
09-29-2012, 04:38 PM
It doesn't matter. If they were superstars before he got there or what, the fact is Bird played with two HOF'ers. How and when isn't the point. And Bosh is not a superstar. Both Kevin Mchale and Robert Parish are both better than Bosh. And no one said DJ was a superstar, but him and Ainge were both better than Chalmers.


the 80s Celtics played against the 80s Lakers not the 2012 Heat or 2012 Thunder. :confused::confused:

smith&wesson
09-29-2012, 04:46 PM
Bird couldnt effectivley play and gaurd 4 different positions. to me he was just a better shooter then lebron. lebron is def the better over all player.

Ebbs
09-29-2012, 04:52 PM
Bird couldnt effectivley play and gaurd 4 different positions. to me he was just a better shooter then lebron. lebron is def the better over all player.

LeBron can guard 1-5 and score on 1-5.

bucketss
09-29-2012, 05:00 PM
Sure it does it adds to your legacy when you can win with a franchise that never won before. It means more when players are relatively same level. So Isiah Thomas winning with Detroit doesn't help him in a debate over Magic Johnson as they aren't the same level. But Hakeem winning with Houston can put him over Shaq or Duncan winning with SA can put him over Shaq as they won with franchises that never won prior to them arriving and all 3 are roughly same level.

that sucks, so two players on the same level both win a championship and no matter what player A does player B will always be better because he was put in a different situation.

smith&wesson
09-29-2012, 05:10 PM
LeBron can guard 1-5 and score on 1-5.

even better lol ... my queston was can bird do that ?? nope.

lol at the guys saying that bosh lead his team to the playoffs. im a raptor fan. wanna know how we got to the playoffs with bosh ?? we were in the weakest division in the nba. the atlantic division sucked monkeyballs at the time...

our record with bosh in the playoffs ??? 2008 lost 4-1 first round, 2007 lost 4-2 in the first round.

so bosh lead the raptors to 2 playoff apearances and won a total of 3 games in 6 seasons...

Ebbs
09-29-2012, 05:12 PM
even better lol ... my queston was can bird do that ?? nope.

lol at the guys saying that bosh lead his team to the playoffs. im a raptor fan. wanna know how we got to the playoffs with bosh ?? we were in the weakest division in the nba. the atlantic division sucked monkeyballs at the time...

our record with bosh in the playoffs ??? 2008 lost 4-1 first round, 2007 lost 4-2 in the first round.

so bosh lead the raptors to 2 playoff apearances and won a total of 3 games in 6 seasons...

I understad Bosh isnt a player who can take you to a ship by himself still though give him some credit. T.J. Ford was his #2 option. Those Toronto teams also sucked hard.

smith&wesson
09-29-2012, 05:29 PM
I understad Bosh isnt a player who can take you to a ship by himself still though give him some credit. T.J. Ford was his #2 option. Those Toronto teams also sucked hard.

he is an all star power foward, not saying he is a bad player. but a number one option on any team he is not. that was a failed experiment in toronto. winnin 3 games in the playoffs over 6 years is nothing to give credit for. better off being a lottery team.

again the only reason we even made it to the playoffs is because of how bad our division was at the time. your right the raptors really sucked at the time. the only time we didnt really completly suck is when we had carter.

lebrons 2nd best player was like mo williams... but he still took the cavs to the finals. his suporting cast was not much better. just saying bosh cant lead a team as the best player. he is a good #2 or 3 option.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-29-2012, 05:42 PM
Call me when LeBron plays on his rookie team with Tiny Archibald, Dave Cowens, Cedric Maxwell and Pete Maravich. I'm not going to get into later years....


I think the Celtics with most of the same guys you named won less than 30 games the season before Bird. They then won over 60 with Bird as a rookie.

Tiny was a gifted player who was past his prime. Dave Cowens was past his prime as well. Cedric was a solid player not great player. Pistol Pete probably played less than 30 games as a Celtic. That was before Parrish and Mchale that Bird as a rookie brought them to 60 plus wins.

jam
09-29-2012, 06:22 PM
Bird was the superior

1. perimeter and 3 point shooter

2. superior rebounder

3. superior clutch player

4. undisputed alpha and team leader on a squad with the greatest front line in NBA history.

I take prime Bird over LeBron 10X out of 10 without hesitation.


Bird couldnt effectivley play and gaurd 4 different positions. to me he was just a better shooter then lebron. lebron is def the better over all player.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-29-2012, 06:41 PM
Bird couldnt effectivley play and gaurd 4 different positions. to me he was just a better shooter then lebron. lebron is def the better over all player.

Bird was a better post up player

Bird was a better passer

Bird was a better outside shooter

Bird was a better rebounder

Bird was a better free throw shooter

Bird was much better guy in the clutch

Bird was one of the clearest leaders of all time

While Lebron is the better defender Bird was not terrible on defense. In fact Bird was pretty good at team defense and made a few all nba defensive teams. He played the passing lanes very well and had a decent amount of steals.

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 06:55 PM
I think the Celtics with most of the same guys you named won less than 30 games the season before Bird. They then won over 60 with Bird as a rookie.

Tiny was a gifted player who was past his prime. Dave Cowens was past his prime as well. Cedric was a solid player not great player. Pistol Pete probably played less than 30 games as a Celtic. That was before Parrish and Mchale that Bird as a rookie brought them to 60 plus wins.

Cedric was good enough to keep McHale on the bench for 3-4 years, also good enough to win the Finals MVP. Also in Bird's rookie year Max was obviously the best player on the team along with Bird (16.8/8.8) - with a .609 FG% !!

Tiny, Ford, Robey - all solid, but far from great.

Maravich sucked.

But yeah, Bird was the clear catalyst.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-29-2012, 07:09 PM
Cedric was good enough to keep McHale on the bench for 3-4 years, also good enough to win the Finals MVP. Also in Bird's rookie year Max was obviously the best player on the team along with Bird (16.8/8.8) - with a .609 FG% !!

Tiny, Ford, Robey - all solid, but far from great.

Maravich sucked.

But yeah, Bird was the clear catalyst.

I liked Cedric but I think you would agree Mchale was a better player than Cedric after a 2-3 seasons. Later on even with Cedric still starting but it was clear Mchale was the better player. Cedric was a really solid guy who I would want on my team anytime but he was not an all star type player in my opinion. Hondo came off the bench for much of his career as well. Mchale played that 6th man role very well.

Pistol had some amazing games in the pros and college. Sadly by the time he became a Celtic his career was at the end. He was a great player and a great entertainer in his day.

bagwell368
09-29-2012, 08:10 PM
I liked Cedric but I think you would agree Mchale was a better player than Cedric after a 2-3 seasons. Later on even with Cedric still starting but it was clear Mchale was the better player. Cedric was a really solid guy who I would want on my team anytime but he was not an all star type player in my opinion. Hondo came off the bench for much of his career as well. Mchale played that 6th man role very well.

Pistol had some amazing games in the pros and college. Sadly by the time he became a Celtic his career was at the end. He was a great player and a great entertainer in his day.

Sure - Maxwells peak was '78-'82 and McHale hit his first great year in 1983-1984.

Red always liked that 6th man thing, nothing like having one of the 3 dozen best players of all time coming in off the bench for your team.... his impact when he was behind Cedric as the 6th man was bigger then Havlicek's was in the same role. For sure. McHale could guard a larger percent of the leagues players than almost any player in history and his shooting was totally superior to Havlick.

dh144498
10-01-2012, 03:59 PM
Stat wise? He'll pass Bird

Who do I trust more in a big game? It's Bird imo no doubt

Stats are not everything, esp in basketball.

:clap: