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View Full Version : Will Kobe learn to defer more with Nash and Howard, or will he try to be "the man"



el hidalgo
09-25-2012, 01:19 PM
do you think he will start to take less FG's and ill advised shots, or will he still try to be the man on the court?

Showtime Steve
09-25-2012, 01:23 PM
He will defer, but have the ball in the clutch.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-25-2012, 01:27 PM
he will shoot like he is used to

shep33
09-25-2012, 01:33 PM
I think he'll defer more... dude has to. History has shown that he actually has deferred in the past as well. Remember the big 4 of Malone, GP, Shaq and Kobe? I think he took 5 fewer shots per game than the previous year.

Hopefully he does that again this year. Our success is highly dependent on him not chucking.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-25-2012, 01:34 PM
el hidalgo the Kobe hater is more obsessed with Kobe' Black Mamba than Vanessa Bryant is. :pity:

Hellcrooner
09-25-2012, 01:41 PM
The Important question is not if he will in general, but if he will in the 4th quarters.

There lies the key to the championship.

Rumar1978
09-25-2012, 01:43 PM
all you guys, are just unbelievable, and dum. kobe's role is not going to change fellows.

the reason it's not, is because it's still his team. i think all yall just wasting your time on

this subject, kobe is kobe guys and when the game is close, it's his time.

greg_ory_2005
09-25-2012, 01:43 PM
Of course he'll still have the ball in the 4th

Cimos21
09-25-2012, 01:44 PM
Kobe was already asked about this and he laughed and said that he has never played with any other guard near the caliber of Nash. He basically said that Nash will run the offense all the time now, where in the past Kobe was really the only ball handler on the court. Kobe said he can go back to his natural game which is scoring, and it's not the ball hog type of scoring. If you watch the Olympics, that is the type of Kobe Bryant that we will see on this team. Awesome.

To sum it up, Kobe will defer to Nash, which in essence defers to the rest of the team. Nash will distribute to everyone and thus Kobe will take less shots, BUT he will get MORE good shots.

Lakers4ItAll
09-25-2012, 01:48 PM
Nash is going to make Kobe (and everyone elses job) so much easier, people are under estimating that!

Rumar1978
09-25-2012, 01:50 PM
shep 33, our success depends on him not chucking. you know how dum you sound, kobe role is not going to change, when it's close he will still finish. elhildago, also sounds dum, ill advise shots, if all of you are true laker fans, you would be smart enough not to even say this. showtime steve, is the only one on here that makes sense. you guys are jokes, all of you. just for that, i'm not coming on here no more and that's a promise, i mean it this time.

shep33
09-25-2012, 01:59 PM
shep 33, our success depends on him not chucking. you know how dum you sound, kobe role is not going to change, when it's close he will still finish. elhildago, also sounds dum, ill advise shots, if all of you are true laker fans, you would be smart enough not to even say this. showtime steve, is the only one on here that makes sense. you guys are jokes, all of you. just for that, i'm not coming on here no more and that's a promise, i mean it this time.

Are you a Laker fan or Kobe fan? There's a difference. Laker fans love Kobe, including myself, but if you think having a 34 year old Kobe play 38 mpg while shooting 24-25 times a night with Nash, Pau, Dwight, Metta, and Jamison around him is going to win us a title, your mistaken.

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-25-2012, 02:00 PM
let's go by kobe's track record to find out the answer, shall we?

Olympics, all star games, when he is surrounded by all stars, he still becomes a little ball hoggy.
and apparently hes supposed to change his mentality just because of an old nash and dwight howarD?
lol ok.

kobe is a shoot first player, and thats just what he is.

accept it and move on.

lakers should focus on defense rather than who has the ball.

blystr2002
09-25-2012, 02:05 PM
1. Nash will dictate a lot because he will be finding the open man, but Kobe will be open a lot more moving without the ball to.

2. He actually was trying to defer to Bynum against the Thunder. If you watched every time Kobe got the ball on the wing he would dump it in to Bynum. The problem was Bynum stopped playing and Kobe got frustrated and had to try to make the plays on his own. Then in the last game he gave up trying and tried to do it all himself. Kobe is all about trust. If he doesn't trust you. You don't get the ball from him. I think he already trusts Nash. Lets see how Gasol and Howard play on that end.

DanG
09-25-2012, 02:10 PM
22-5-5 on 46% shooting would be perfect.

TopsyTurvy
09-25-2012, 02:21 PM
Kobe is at his best shooting at this point in his career and I don't see that changing at all with the off season moves the Lakers made.

KnickaBocka.44
09-25-2012, 02:25 PM
Although Nash is a great shooter, he isn't the kind of player that wants to be deferred to so I'm inclined to think Kobe's efficiency will rise. He knows that his job is to get the ball to guys where they can be productive with it, not to score around 20/night. With the roster around him, I wouldnt be surprised if Nash only scored about 13-14 ppg but he could legitimately average around the same amount of assists.

At the same time, teams won't be able to run their point guard at Kobe because Nash is still deadly from outside and smart enough to manipulate defenses and get easy baskets inside.

RaiderLakersA's
09-25-2012, 03:31 PM
Kobe has already shown that in limited spurts he's going to do what he does. But honestly, what superstar doesn't? I have no problems with that.

If he's still considered a top 5 player, then he's still worthy of commanding the floor. For all of the criticism, there isn't a single person in this forum that would leave him open and uncontested if you were coaching the opposition. You'd be considered an unmitigated fool and lose your job if you did.

And if Kobe IS being counterproductive, it's the head coach's job to reign him in. Period. Brown needs to earn his paycheck.

LaLa_Land
09-25-2012, 03:53 PM
Let me break it down for anyone here that may be slow.

According to ELIAS, when taking UNCONTESTED jumpers last year, Kobe LED the league shooting 56.11%. Coincidentally, he was also DEAD LAST in terms of overall open jumpers taken, at only 11.2% of his total shot attempts.

Steve Nash is there to direct an offense that will allow for everyone's efficiency to sky rocket...especially a pure jump shooter/scorer such as kob.

Ideal statistical breakdown:
stevie: 12&12
kobe:24,5,5
metta:8,5,2stl
pau:17,10,3,2
dwight:19,14,4

jamison:14,6
meeks: 10 ppg on 40-44% from three

naps
09-25-2012, 04:11 PM
Are you a Laker fan or Kobe fan? There's a difference. Laker fans love Kobe, including myself, but if you think having a 34 year old Kobe play 38 mpg while shooting 24-25 times a night with Nash, Pau, Dwight, Metta, and Jamison around him is going to win us a title, your mistaken.

:nod:

I agree with your whole post. Lakers will be really really dangerous if Nash runs the offense and Kobe gracefully accepts his decline.

naps
09-25-2012, 04:14 PM
Kobe is at his best shooting at this point in his career

What does that mean? He certainly isn't at his best shooting mode at this point in his career if that's what you meant.

Hawkeye15
09-25-2012, 04:16 PM
The first 40 minutes, I am sure he will have no problem deferring. Its those last 8 that Laker fans should be worried about. I simply don't know if he has it in him makeup to not play hero-ball down the stretch of games. We shall see.

nickdymez
09-25-2012, 04:32 PM
let's go by kobe's track record to find out the answer, shall we?

Olympics, all star games, when he is surrounded by all stars, he still becomes a little ball hoggy.
and apparently hes supposed to change his mentality just because of an old nash and dwight howarD?
lol ok.

kobe is a shoot first player, and thats just what he is.

accept it and move on.

lakers should focus on defense rather than who has the ball.

If you want to focus on his track record, hows about 5 rings. Im focusing on that

Dr Seuss
09-25-2012, 04:40 PM
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

LAKERMANIA
09-25-2012, 04:45 PM
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

What a stupid frog..

C-Style
09-25-2012, 04:47 PM
5 rings

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-25-2012, 05:01 PM
let's go by kobe's track record to find out the answer, shall we?

Olympics, all star games, when he is surrounded by all stars, he still becomes a little ball hoggy.
and apparently hes supposed to change his mentality just because of an old nash and dwight howarD?
lol ok.

kobe is a shoot first player, and thats just what he is.

accept it and move on.

lakers should focus on defense rather than who has the ball.

I think Kobe needs to mix it up and understand when to let Nash be Nash and when to unleash the Black Mamba. He has to understand the situation and how the game is going. Mixing it up and as you said, Laker team defense, is what should be concentrated upon.

Tymathee
09-25-2012, 05:03 PM
Anybody who thinks Kobe would have the ball in his hands more doesn't know Kobe.

When he has people around him, he's not like that unless he's feelin it. He's a very smart player, he's just stubborn sometimes and if he sees his teammates crapping it up, he wants the ball.

also, his teammates have this horrible habit of giving him the ball if the offense isn't moving, he's a 2 guard, not a 1.

Nash will have the ball the most, Kobe the 2nd most then Gasol, then Dwight or Artest.

Kobe will be working off of Nash and Gasol
Gasol off Nash and Kobe
Dwight off Nash, Kobe and Gasol

and Artest will get his here and there.

Dwight wont be that much of a focal point on offense but he'll be in a LOT of pick and rolls off every starte,r nash, kobe, artest AND Gasol, its going to be FUN!

MintBerryCrunch
09-25-2012, 05:10 PM
More threads on Kobe oh joy !

Iron24th
09-25-2012, 05:16 PM
I'm not too worried about Kobe, he's smart enough to recognize when there's enough firepower on the team to not force anything, he did with previous stacked Lakers teams and team USA.

J4KOP99
09-25-2012, 05:19 PM
He will be fine. When he has all-world talent around him, he defers when necessary...


look at 00,01,02,09,10... Those teams were loaded and although Kobe was still a somewhat selfish player, he knew when to back off and let someone else go to work. Some people claim that those teams won in spite of Kobe, which is idiotic.


--Kobe's "hero ball" is usually an issue when the team is just not good enough. Last year, as a Lakers fan, I was frustrated with his heroic attempts late in games. However, that Lakers roster was pretty rough. Gasol had his chances but wouldn't be assertive. Bynum couldn't pass out of double-teams consistently, our PG's were Blake and Sessions, MWP actually was solid when asked to step up but isn't in his prime anymore and can't be heavily relied upon as a scorer... As crazy as it sounds, Kobe didn't even have an actual back-up SG.

Kobe does not have to "learn" how to do anything new... he will adjust his play, you watch.

Burgo
09-25-2012, 05:24 PM
As long as he's at the Lakers he'll take the first shot of the game, last shot of the game and plenty in between. He's dangerous with the ball so why not let him go for it. If he's having a bad night he just needs to learn that there are other options around him.

MTar786
09-25-2012, 05:32 PM
22-5-5 on 46% shooting would be perfect.

kobes gonna average 25.5 or 26ppg-5rpg-4.5apg on 47%fg this season.. i always get it right.. every year

ps.. i get the fg% wrong every year.

my guesses are

kobe 25.5ppg
pau 17ppg
dwight 18 or 19ppg
nash 13.5ppg

jamison 12ppg
artest 8ppg

RaiderLakersA's
09-25-2012, 05:32 PM
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

This used to be pithy. Now it's just cliched.

LoveMeOrHateMe
09-25-2012, 06:00 PM
I mean I love me some Kobe, but these threads have to stop seriously nba forum is becoming a joke with all these threads trying to bash Kobe!

But to answer the op's question yes and no are the answers yes he will let both Nash be the primary ball handler and let Dwight get his fair share of touches, but make no mistake about it this is still Kobe's team and will be for 1-2 more years! Lakers will be just fine!

WeBallin
09-25-2012, 06:45 PM
Now i am one Kobe biggest haters but dude basketball IQ is of the charts i don't think it will be much of an issue on the offensive end , the biggest issue i see the Lakers having is gettin D12 adjusted after he comes back from his injury, that most likely will disrupt the offense more then Kobe an Nash issues.

SirSkyHook
09-25-2012, 06:50 PM
Kobe will still average around 25 a game on fewer shots and on a higher percentage which should still be top 5 or so in the league. The Lakers will be great and next season rather the Lakers win or lose it all there will stiill be foolish threads disrespecting his game and career, and rather Lebron or Durant win or lose there will be threads proclaiming them better and posters advance stating their greatness.

Mr_Jones
09-25-2012, 07:01 PM
THERE ARE SO MANY STUPID LAKER FANS ON PSD.


I'm a Laker fan, but Christ, some guys are just beating a dead horse. Enough with the Laker threads.

C-Style
09-25-2012, 07:14 PM
kobes gonna average 25.5 or 26ppg-5rpg-4.5apg on 47%fg this season.. i always get it right.. every year

ps.. i get the fg% wrong every year.

my guesses are

kobe 25.5ppg
pau 17ppg
dwight 18 or 19ppg
nash 13.5ppg

jamison 12ppg
artest 8ppg



I can see that.. a lot more realistic than just 22 lol

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-25-2012, 07:19 PM
THERE ARE SO MANY STUPID LAKER FANS ON PSD.


I'm a Laker fan, but Christ, some guys are just beating a dead horse. Enough with the Laker threads.

For the 50th time, el hidalgo is not a Laker fan or a Kobe fan. He's doing this on purpose. Don't let the avatar fool you, just take a look at his "Location" and you'll know that he's trying to mock Laker fans and fans that like Kobe.

Andrew32
09-25-2012, 07:21 PM
I'm not too worried about Kobe, he's smart enough to recognize when there's enough firepower on the team to not force anything, he did with previous stacked Lakers teams and team USA.

I disagree.
He had 2 of the best offensive Bigs in the league last year and chose to be a gunner instead of dedicating himself to inside/out ball.

There were also some games in the Olympics where he gunned and shot terribly.
One game he was like 1-7, 1-11 or something

His 2012 regular season was plagued by long stretches of horrific shooting displays and 1-18 / 3-24 type games.
He had an entire month where he shot under 40% from the field. :speechless:
Against OKC he did a very poor job of running the offense and gunned to the detriment of his team shooting 30% in 3/5 games in that series and stat-padding/giving up in the final game.

The Lakers right now need a balanced "Celtic" type offense ran by Nash and anchored by Dwight/Gasol since they are the most efficient/consistent scorers on the team.

Kobe should still probably get 18-22ppg but anything beyond that unless it comes on great efficiency will probably hurt the team.

I do think Kobe worrys about his legacy and image and may not be able to accept a small scoring role.
There is a reason he said he wouldn't stick around and accept a smaller role if he couldn't average a certain amount of PPG.

He considers himself (in his mind) a "scorer/shooter" and uses that to justify his gunning even when it hurts his team.
The fact is Kobe is capable of doing much more then that and he knows it.
Hopefully he will play the role that best helps his team.
If he does LAL will be serious contenders.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-25-2012, 07:27 PM
I disagree.
He had 2 of the best offensive Bigs in the league last year and chose to be a gunner instead of dedicate himself to inside/out ball.

His regular season was plagued by long stretches of horrific shooting displays and 1-18 / 3-24 type games.
He had an entire month where he shot under 40% from the field. :speechless:
Against OKC he did a very poor job of running the offense and gunned to the detriment of his team shooting 30% in 3/5 games in that series and stat-padding/giving up in the final game.

The Lakers right now need a balanced "Celtic" type offense ran by Nash and anchored by Dwight/Gasol since they are the most efficient/consistent scorers on the team.

Kobe should still probably get 18-22ppg but anything beyond that unless it comes on great efficiency will probably hurt the team.

I do think Kobe worrys about his legacy and image and may not be able to accept a small scoring role.

He considers himself a "scorer/shooter" and uses that to justify his gunning even when it hurts his team.
The fact is Kobe is capable of doing much more then that and he knows it.
Hopefully he will play the role that best helps his team.
If he does LAL will be serious contenders.



Running the offense?


I forget, after playing in the triangle offense for 11 out of 12 seasons, what did Mike Brown and those scrubs like Kuester, Messina and Snyder bring to the table?

Absolutely nothing! Kobe was used to the triangle, they made the switch of Fish to Sessions, who played like a scared little ***** and wouldn't initiate the offense or shoot the ball due to lack of testicles (which is why he's now a scrub backup on the Bobcats).

Steve Blake was as awful as you could get and Mike had no clue what to do with the offense, there was a time where Mike had to revert and tell Pau, Drew, Ron and Kobe to run sequences of the triangle as those were the only guys with true experience and success with it. They had to revert back to parts of the triangle due to the shortened season with basically no training camp.


Kobe is not a PG. Why the hell should he have to initiate the offense. He's a scorer and probably one if not the the greatest scorer this league has ever seen.

16 yrs into the association, you want him to run the offense with Crazy Metta, soft Pau who didn't know what his future with the team would be like, And Andrew "I love to shoot them 3s" Bynum ????


No! That was Mike and his idiot assistants' job to initiate a true offense after Phil left and FO's job to solidify that PG and backup PG spot.



Good thing this yr, we have Eddie Jordan's Princeton Offense along with one of the greatest PGs to ever play this game initiating the offense and deciding what goes on and who gets the ball.

Andrew32
09-25-2012, 07:37 PM
Kobe is not a PG. Why the hell should he have to initiate the offense. He's a scorer and probably one if not the the greatest scorer this league has ever seen.

16 yrs into the association, you want him to run the offense with Crazy Metta, soft Pau who didn't know what his future with the team would be like, And Andrew "I love to shoot them 3s" Bynum ????


Kobe is one of the greatest scorers ever but this isn't 2006-2009 anymore.
He is old and is no longer "that player".
At this point in his career he can probably only handle scoring 20-22ppg while retaining some form of decent efficiency/consistency.

Gasol has never been soft.
Did you forget 09 / 10 when Pau was dominating and scoring at will in the post VS the entire league and grabbing offensive rebounds at will over the likes of KG and Duncan?

He has been forced out onto the perimeter by the dumb*** that is Mike Brown and that is why he is so inconsistent lately.
Hate it or love it but Gasol belongs in the post not on the perimiter.

Bynum may do dumb things at times but he is clearly one of the best post scorers in the league.
Kobe could have done a far better job keeping him involved and aiding in his development during the regular season.
A young big like him needs a consistent stream of touches.

Maybe you are right and LAL just needed a better PG.
They have Nash now... so no more excuses.

jerellh528
09-25-2012, 08:00 PM
This is kobe were talking about, his bball IQ is one of the highest in the NBA, He wants to win first and foremost, I'm sure kobe will defer more to his highly talented team, especially at his age, he's not dumb. 25 5 6 with a >46fg% would be ideal. He just needs to take less than 18 shots per game average, unless hes on.

LakersOrNothing
09-25-2012, 08:05 PM
I just got off the phone with Kobe.. he told me to tell you guys to suck it.

He said he's going to avg 80 PPG, 40 APG, and 69 RPG. SHARE BALL? NO THNX!

DWIGHT WHO?
NASH WHO?
PAU WHO?
METTA WHAT?

Good day

Andrew32
09-25-2012, 08:10 PM
I just got off the phone with Kobe.. he told me to tell you guys to suck it.

He said he's going to avg 80 PPG, 40 APG, and 69 RPG. SHARE BALL? NO THNX!

DWIGHT WHO?
NASH WHO?
PAU WHO?
METTA WHAT?

Good day

Sounds legit.

JJ_JKidd
09-25-2012, 08:50 PM
Why would a player with 5 rings defer to players with NO RINGS?

He is the man in LA as far as im concerned.

Andrew32
09-25-2012, 09:13 PM
Why would a player with 5 rings defer to players with NO RINGS?

He is the man in LA as far as im concerned.

Why did Horry ever defer to Kobe?
He has 7 rings and is the man in LA as far as im concerned.
:o

Andrew32
09-25-2012, 09:14 PM
Having Rings doesn't mean you can just play stupidly and do whatever you want when you decline.

Players should always do what is best for their team and if they don't the Players/Coach/GM should call their *** out.

Well maybe not the players but certainly the Coach/GM behind closed doors.

Mr. NBA
09-25-2012, 09:34 PM
Kobe forever will be a ballhog when it comes to something so desperate on the line such as an NBA championship. And that's coming from a Kobe fan, whom I think kobe is 2nd to michael jordan as the GOAT.

As a player for Team USA he doesn't have the same sense of urgency as he does with the Larry O'Brien Trophy.

Will Kobe call this "HIS TEAM" absolutely. You damn well know straight this will happen.
Kobe deferring to his teammates at the last minute down by two points for the NBA title?

HELL NO.

be realistic people. You want Kobe to defer to his teammates, but when it comes to the bottom line, he won't.

But Kobe has won 5 titles and he's proven you wrong as a ballhog on many accounts.
Kobe also has lost seasons and titles as a ballhog on many accounts.

But we count what we won not what we lost.

so the point is he's going to be a ballhog forever.

Andrew32
09-25-2012, 09:40 PM
But Kobe has won 5 titles and he's proven you wrong as a ballhog on many accounts.

Has he?
He probably could have won much more if he hadn't been a ballhog.

The fact that he won 5 titles doesn't really mean anything.

We all know Kobe is a great player... one of the best guards ever to play the game but he also has by far had the greatest luck ever in terms of career supporting casts and circumstances (rules changes / matchups etc).

So in reality winning 5 titles is not that impressive considering those factors.
If anything I consider it a bit of an under-achievement in my book.

He also won 3 of those titles as a supporting player and only 1 as the clear #1/engine of his team (2009).

That said Kobe is a great player... one of the best ever but he cannot put himself above the team if he wants to win another Ring.

Mr_Jones
09-25-2012, 09:52 PM
Define "defer".

Lakers4life08
09-25-2012, 09:52 PM
Stephen a. Smith one time said,he asked Kobe about retiring after his contract ends...and Kobe said that he better retire,that be 15-17 points player a game.....he never let howard to score more that him...i predict howard 20 ppg with 10-15 shots a game, kobe 24 ppg with 22-25 shots a game

Bruno
09-25-2012, 09:58 PM
I disagree. He had 2 of the best offensive Bigs in the league last year and chose to be a gunner instead of dedicating himself to inside/out ball.
Gasol has put up back-to-back post season PERs of 17.3/17.0, back-to-back post-season TS%s under .500. Last year he failed to make the all-star team, or any All-NBA teams rewarding regular season play. Those numbers/accolades are not compatible with a player who is still characterized as one of the 'best offensive bigs in the NBA'; Gasol is living off reputation just as much as Bryant at this point in time. Gasol is aging and is no longer in his prime. He's also inefficient and passive when removed from the box on the elbow; why would Kobe ever defer to him given his current standing/role in the offense? The blame for that goes on Gasol, but on Mike Brown as well.

Bynum saw his FGA per game nearly double from 2011 to 2012. That couldn't have happened unless Bryant (team leader in USG%) made a committed effort to get him the ball. Touches were not an issue for Bynum, commitment to get Bynum the ball on Bryants end was not an issue.

Bynum 2011: 7.6 FGA per game.
Bynum 2012: 13.3 FGA per game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01.html

As a fan who studies ever Laker game and box score, let me tell you that Bryants touches rarely came at the expense of Bynum or Gasol. Their touches as a duo were statistically unaffected by Bryants slight increase in FGA per game during the 2012 campaign.

Bynum & Gasol 2011: 21.3 FGA per game, 30.1 points per game.
Bynum & Gasol 2012: 27.4 FGA per game, 36.1 points per game.

Those are the numbers.

Kobes touches went up, but the duo of Bynum/Gasol saw their touches increase as a tandem as well. The explanation is simple; Lamar Odoms touches had to go somewhere. And instead of giving those FGAs (10.9 per game) to Derek Fisher, Ron Artest, Matt Barnes, Steve Blake, or any other below average offensive player on the roster, they were proportionately absorbed by Kobe and to the duo on the box. The Lakers simply didn't have the pieces off the bench or at the PG/SF positions to make up for Odom, it had to be absorbed by their big three. Kobe deferred to the post in 2012 just as much, if not more than he has in past seasons; it usually works out pretty well considering the fact that his team has locked up championships five times in the past thirteen seasons.



There were also some games in the Olympics where he gunned and shot terribly.
One game he was like 1-7, 1-11 or something

Isolating one game in a non-NBA tournament isn't the best way to make your point here (context/competition). But since you brought it up, lets look at the numbers for the tournament. Over the course of the 2012 Olympics (8 games) Bryant scored 97 points on 70 FGAs. That comes out to 1.38 points per field goal attempt. Bryant was 17/39 from three for the tournyment (44%) and 20/22 from the line (91%).

Those figures combine to create a TS% of .609. Extremely efficient and effective; your point regarding the efficiency of his Olympic play is null & void.
http://www.london2012.com/basketball/event/men/teamstatistics/type=cumulative-tot/index.html


His 2012 regular season was plagued by long stretches of horrific shooting displays and 1-18 / 3-24 type games.
He had an entire month where he shot under 40% from the field. :speechless
Isolating individual games to make your point isn't the best approach to the argument. I could mention the fact that he had 13/19 & 14/23 shooting performances, I could also mention that he shot 50% in games played from April 1st through May 1st (8 games, 2 playoff).

I could mention that he shot 45.5% from the field for the month of January while averaging 31.2 ppg (a FG% right on his career average). I could mention that Mike Brown bumped Bryant up in minutes by 4.6 minutes per game in the condensed 2012 season, compared to his 2011 average. I could mention that he was 4th in the NBA in minutes per game during the 2012 season despite being a sixteen year veteran. I could argue that Bryant played great in January before Browns minute distribution and rotations took the life out of his legs. But that would be cherry picking to make my point; it wouldn't be an honest reflection or analysis. Fact is, he had very pedestrian scoring efficiency for the season (.527 TS%); efficiency numbers that are still notably better than what Gasol has posted in back-to-back post seasons with the Lakers. You exaggerate a bit much on exactly how poor his efficiency has become, and you offer no context or balanced explanation for as to why it happened. Wana sig bet me that his TS% will be higher in 2013 than it was in 2012? :nod:


Against OKC he did a very poor job of running the offense and gunned to the detriment of his team shooting 30% in 3/5 games in that series and stat-padding/giving up in the final game.
If you're going to post the numbers, make sure they're correct. Bryant never once shot 30% from the field against OKC in the playoffs. He shot in the high 30's several times, but he never shot straight up 30% from the field. Bryant shot 43% against them for the series, while getting to the line ten times per game.

Kobes TS% wasn't great against OKC (.515). And I hate to break it to ya, but neither was Bynums or Gasols. Turns out Kobe was actually the most efficient out of the big three, despite the fact that he wasn't very efficient himself:
Bynum posted a TS% of .513 against OKC
Gasol posted a TS% of .502 against OKC

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01/gamelog/2012/#70-74-sum:pgl_advanced_playoffs
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01/gamelog/2012/#97-101-sum:pgl_advanced_playoffs

The truth is, is that the 2012 Lakers were poorly constructed from 4-15, they weren't well rounded, had zero floor spreading and a pathetic bench. Rather than put all of that blame on Kobe, you should observe the stats and embrace the obvious; Bryant, Bynum and Gasol were smothered by a better, younger, hungrier team with a better bench and a better coach.

Perhaps with better floor spreading, a better bench, and the addition of Steve Nash, Kobe and Pau will look more like their 2010 incarnations in 2013.

John Walls Era
09-25-2012, 10:29 PM
The Important question is not if he will in general, but if he will in the 4th quarters.

There lies the key to the championship.

I was looking for a Crooner Post because I knew I would actually agree with him on this topic 100%. I was not disappointed.

NBAfan4life
09-25-2012, 10:30 PM
This season will be interesting to watch. I'm hoping Kobe's assists go up and his points and minutes goes down. Maybe not in the first half of the season but by the time they're full strength. Will see either way I can't wait.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-25-2012, 10:33 PM
Kobe is one of the greatest scorers ever but this isn't 2006-2009 anymore.


Gasol has never been soft.
Did you forget 09 / 10 when Pau was dominating and scoring at will in the post VS the entire league and grabbing offensive rebounds at will over the likes of KG and Duncan?



I'm talking about last yr with all the trade rumors. He was mentally weak, especially after the whole CP3 veto trade.

My mistake for not clarifying.

Andrew32
09-25-2012, 10:40 PM
Bynum posted a TS% of .513 against OKC
Gasol posted a TS% of .502 against OKC

Kobe was selfish against OKC.
He did a poor job sharing the ball and giving consistent touches to his best offensive options.

Combined with his atrocious shooting %'s gave LAL very little chance to win.

A big reason for Bynums decline in the playoffs was (imo) because of Kobe not giving him consistent touches and dominating the ball for long periods of time.

Both Gasol and Bynum saw a noticeable drop in their shot attempts in the playoffs and Kobe's USG% was even higher then his already ridiculous 35.7% from the regular season.

Both Gasol and Bynum blew Kobe away in regular season efficiency and most importantly consistency.
There is no reason Kobe should have been taking so many more shot attempts with that in mind.

Posting "seasonal averages or even playoff averages" can be deceiving.
Kobe was horribly inconsistent during the regular season.
He had a couple of isolated games where he shot well and maybe even some short stretches of game which buoyed his seasonal averages but he also had many long stretches of games where he shot putrid %'s which is evident by him shooting below 40% for an entire month.

I don't blame it all on Kobe but he definitely did play above his actual capabilities and did a poor job running the offense at times especially in the playoffs.

TS% isn't the ultimate stat btw.
%'s from the field matter and can be the difference between a selfish player and one who is just shooting poorly.
Kobe shot 39%, 36%, 36% and 43% in the first 4 games of the OKC series and in the Final game he didn't attempt to involve his supporting cast at all and simply gunned the entire game which is evident by his 0 assists and absurd 46% USG rate.

Andrew32
09-25-2012, 10:44 PM
I'm talking about last yr with all the trade rumors. He was mentally weak, especially after the whole CP3 veto trade.

My mistake for not clarifying.

It's cool.
Maybe you are right but I see no other explanation for Gasol's sudden and vast decline in offensive efficiency/consistency other then the change of role in the offense that took place after the 2010 season.

He simply does not work that well on the perimeter.
He belongs in the post.

His performance in G7 of the Nuggets series reminded me of his play from 2009 and 2010.

mrblisterdundee
09-25-2012, 10:48 PM
I think Kobe Bryant will still be the leading scorer, although he will defer more to the post players. Having so many options in the middle will open up more plentiful and easier mid- and long-range shots for Bryant. At 34, Michael Jordan was still averaging 28.7 points per game before he retired, came back four years later and still played great. Bryant's not Jordan, but I think he can keep that relatively high level of play up for a couple more years.


The Important question is not if he will in general, but if he will in the 4th quarters.

There lies the key to the championship.
This is a good point.

ldawg
09-25-2012, 11:24 PM
this is a hater poll. Lakers fans will vote yes and all others will vote no.

Iron24th
09-25-2012, 11:33 PM
I disagree.
He had 2 of the best offensive Bigs in the league last year and chose to be a gunner instead of dedicating himself to inside/out ball.

There were also some games in the Olympics where he gunned and shot terribly.
One game he was like 1-7, 1-11 or something

His 2012 regular season was plagued by long stretches of horrific shooting displays and 1-18 / 3-24 type games.
He had an entire month where he shot under 40% from the field. :speechless:
Against OKC he did a very poor job of running the offense and gunned to the detriment of his team shooting 30% in 3/5 games in that series and stat-padding/giving up in the final game.

The Lakers right now need a balanced "Celtic" type offense ran by Nash and anchored by Dwight/Gasol since they are the most efficient/consistent scorers on the team.

Kobe should still probably get 18-22ppg but anything beyond that unless it comes on great efficiency will probably hurt the team.

I do think Kobe worrys about his legacy and image and may not be able to accept a small scoring role.
There is a reason he said he wouldn't stick around and accept a smaller role if he couldn't average a certain amount of PPG.

He considers himself (in his mind) a "scorer/shooter" and uses that to justify his gunning even when it hurts his team.
The fact is Kobe is capable of doing much more then that and he knows it.
Hopefully he will play the role that best helps his team.
If he does LAL will be serious contenders.

Kobe gave Pau a chance to be the hero in the okc series (game 4), and Pau lost the ball trying to make a pass.

Bynum was lost in double teams, and sessions was scared to shoot all series long.

Kobe has no choice and you would have known it if you watched the series.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-25-2012, 11:37 PM
It's cool.
Maybe you are right but I see no other explanation for Gasol's sudden and vast decline in offensive efficiency/consistency other then the change of role in the offense that took place after the 2010 season.

He simply does not work that well on the perimeter.
He belongs in the post.

His performance in G7 of the Nuggets series reminded me of his play from 2009 and 2010.

I second that. The one thing about Pau is that he is NOT A COMPLAINER. Bynum was a complainer when things weren't going his way individually, but Pau has been the consummate professional, and the way he handled the CP3 debacle unlike Odom showed that as well. Us Laker fans are so fortunate to have Pau in the P&G and I really hope and pray that he retires in that jersey. He is key for us winning this season.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-25-2012, 11:38 PM
Kobe gave Pau a chance to be the hero in the okc series (game 4), and Pau lost the ball trying to make a pass.

Bynum was lost in double teams, and sessions was scared to shoot all series long.

Kobe has no choice and you would have known it if you watched the series.

Yes, but that's right after Kobe started missing basically every shot in the 4th qtr of that game. The Pau turnover was just the icing on the cake and the nail in the coffin in how horribly the Lakers were executing in that 4th. Although that Pau turnover was huge, there's no reason to put the entire blame on him for that loss as he we had a comfortable lead heading into the 4th. It should have never came down to that one play tbh.

Andrew32
09-25-2012, 11:40 PM
Us Laker fans are so fortunate to have Pau in the P&G and I really hope and pray that he retires in that jersey. He is key for us winning this season.

That would be very nice. :clap:
I think he deserves it especially if he ends up being a big part of another Championship or two.

Gasol has always been one of my favorite players since he won ROY back in 2002.

Andrew32
09-25-2012, 11:45 PM
Kobe has no choice and you would have known it if you watched the series.

I disagree. (and I did watch the series live)
I felt Kobe did a poor job of running the offense and keeping Gasol/Bynum fed and he basically decided to try and do it all himself.

That was obviously a poor decision considering how good a team OKC and what his ability was.

Maybe if this was back in 2006 or 2009 it wouldn't have been a bad idea but Kobe is older now and needs to make smarter decisions.

Better to go down attempting to play the right way then to just gun and hope for the best.

Maybe we just have a different perspective on the series which is fine.

I certainly never meant to put all the blame on Kobe and I am not gonna say they win for sure even if he played unselfishly but I do think it would have given them a better chance.

amos1er
09-26-2012, 01:08 AM
Gasol has put up back-to-back post season PERs of 17.3/17.0, back-to-back post-season TS%s under .500. Last year he failed to make the all-star team, or any All-NBA teams rewarding regular season play. Those numbers/accolades are not compatible with a player who is still characterized as one of the 'best offensive bigs in the NBA'; Gasol is living off reputation just as much as Bryant at this point in time. Gasol is aging and is no longer in his prime. He's also inefficient and passive when removed from the box on the elbow; why would Kobe ever defer to him given his current standing/role in the offense? The blame for that goes on Gasol, but on Mike Brown as well.

Bynum saw his FGA per game nearly double from 2011 to 2012. That couldn't have happened unless Bryant (team leader in USG%) made a committed effort to get him the ball. Touches were not an issue for Bynum, commitment to get Bynum the ball on Bryants end was not an issue.

Bynum 2011: 7.6 FGA per game.
Bynum 2012: 13.3 FGA per game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01.html

As a fan who studies ever Laker game and box score, let me tell you that Bryants touches rarely came at the expense of Bynum or Gasol. Their touches as a duo were statistically unaffected by Bryants slight increase in FGA per game during the 2012 campaign.

Bynum & Gasol 2011: 21.3 FGA per game, 30.1 points per game.
Bynum & Gasol 2012: 27.4 FGA per game, 36.1 points per game.

Those are the numbers.

Kobes touches went up, but the duo of Bynum/Gasol saw their touches increase as a tandem as well. The explanation is simple; Lamar Odoms touches had to go somewhere. And instead of giving those FGAs (10.9 per game) to Derek Fisher, Ron Artest, Matt Barnes, Steve Blake, or any other below average offensive player on the roster, they were proportionately absorbed by Kobe and to the duo on the box. The Lakers simply didn't have the pieces off the bench or at the PG/SF positions to make up for Odom, it had to be absorbed by their big three. Kobe deferred to the post in 2012 just as much, if not more than he has in past seasons; it usually works out pretty well considering the fact that his team has locked up championships five times in the past thirteen seasons.




Isolating one game in a non-NBA tournament isn't the best way to make your point here (context/competition). But since you brought it up, lets look at the numbers for the tournament. Over the course of the 2012 Olympics (8 games) Bryant scored 97 points on 70 FGAs. That comes out to 1.38 points per field goal attempt. Bryant was 17/39 from three for the tournyment (44%) and 20/22 from the line (91%).

Those figures combine to create a TS% of .609. Extremely efficient and effective; your point regarding the efficiency of his Olympic play is null & void.
http://www.london2012.com/basketball/event/men/teamstatistics/type=cumulative-tot/index.html


Isolating individual games to make your point isn't the best approach to the argument. I could mention the fact that he had 13/19 & 14/23 shooting performances, I could also mention that he shot 50% in games played from April 1st through May 1st (8 games, 2 playoff).

I could mention that he shot 45.5% from the field for the month of January while averaging 31.2 ppg (a FG% right on his career average). I could mention that Mike Brown bumped Bryant up in minutes by 4.6 minutes per game in the condensed 2012 season, compared to his 2011 average. I could mention that he was 4th in the NBA in minutes per game during the 2012 season despite being a sixteen year veteran. I could argue that Bryant played great in January before Browns minute distribution and rotations took the life out of his legs. But that would be cherry picking to make my point; it wouldn't be an honest reflection or analysis. Fact is, he had very pedestrian scoring efficiency for the season (.527 TS%); efficiency numbers that are still notably better than what Gasol has posted in back-to-back post seasons with the Lakers. You exaggerate a bit much on exactly how poor his efficiency has become, and you offer no context or balanced explanation for as to why it happened. Wana sig bet me that his TS% will be higher in 2013 than it was in 2012? :nod:


If you're going to post the numbers, make sure they're correct. Bryant never once shot 30% from the field against OKC in the playoffs. He shot in the high 30's several times, but he never shot straight up 30% from the field. Bryant shot 43% against them for the series, while getting to the line ten times per game.

Kobes TS% wasn't great against OKC (.515). And I hate to break it to ya, but neither was Bynums or Gasols. Turns out Kobe was actually the most efficient out of the big three, despite the fact that he wasn't very efficient himself:
Bynum posted a TS% of .513 against OKC
Gasol posted a TS% of .502 against OKC

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01/gamelog/2012/#70-74-sum:pgl_advanced_playoffs
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01/gamelog/2012/#97-101-sum:pgl_advanced_playoffs

The truth is, is that the 2012 Lakers were poorly constructed from 4-15, they weren't well rounded, had zero floor spreading and a pathetic bench. Rather than put all of that blame on Kobe, you should observe the stats and embrace the obvious; Bryant, Bynum and Gasol were smothered by a better, younger, hungrier team with a better bench and a better coach.

Perhaps with better floor spreading, a better bench, and the addition of Steve Nash, Kobe and Pau will look more like their 2010 incarnations in 2013.

TOTALLY AND THROUGHLY OWNED!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Kashmir13579
09-26-2012, 01:18 AM
I can't wait to see the new Kobe.

Kashmir13579
09-26-2012, 01:20 AM
this is a hater poll. Lakers fans will vote yes and all others will vote no.

No. The problem is both options are stupid.

ink
09-26-2012, 01:27 AM
this is a hater poll. Lakers fans will vote yes and all others will vote no.

I agree. Kobe played in the triangle for most of his career (which doesn't utilize the PG much), and he is an intelligent player. He will be fine deferring to teammates.

Andrew32
09-26-2012, 01:53 AM
TOTALLY AND THROUGHLY OWNED!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:
lol... you are so immature. :facepalm:
Bruno is my friend and I always enjoy reading his perspective on things.

Grow up... you're close to being the second person ever to be on my ignore list here.

Andrew32
09-26-2012, 01:56 AM
I agree. Kobe played in the triangle for most of his career (which doesn't utilize the PG much), and he is an intelligent player. He will be fine deferring to teammates.

He has done a very poor job of it in the past (03 / 04) and has (arguably) done a pretty poor job of it the last two years.

He showed last year that he was not ready to accept his decline and adjust his role.

Therefore it is not unreasonable to be question if he will adjust his role to maximize the talent and ability of this new LAL roster.

I personally think they'll be a great team no matter what but Kobe is the one who will decide if this team can go all the way or not.

amos1er
09-26-2012, 03:46 AM
He has done a very poor job of it in the past (03 / 04) and has (arguably) done a pretty poor job of it the last two years.

He showed last year that he was not ready to accept his decline and adjust his role.

Therefore it is not unreasonable to be question if he will adjust his role to maximize the talent and ability of this new LAL roster.

I personally think they'll be a great team no matter what but Kobe is the one who will decide if this team can go all the way or not.

He adjusted to his role perfectly in 08-10 when he went to the finals 3 years in a row and won 2 championships.

Also, you don't think that Kobe adjusted to his "role" back when he was playing with Shaq and won 3 titles?

Truth is, Kobe has had different roles on different teams and has adjusted to what ever was needed to win. No doubt he will do the same this season. It's the reason Nash came to LA...to win along side Kobe. Apparently Nash (a 2 time MVP and future Hall of Famer) seems to have faith that teaming up with Kobe is his best shot at finally winning a ring. It therefore goes without saying that he feels Kobe will "adjust to his role" and if thats good enough for Nash, it's good enough for me.

thenaj17
09-26-2012, 07:51 AM
:nod:

I agree with your whole post. Lakers will be really really dangerous if Nash runs the offense and Kobe gracefully accepts his decline.

Woah, woah, woah...that's not happening yet

thenaj17
09-26-2012, 07:57 AM
He has done a very poor job of it in the past (03 / 04) and has (arguably) done a pretty poor job of it the last two years.

He showed last year that he was not ready to accept his decline and adjust his role.
Therefore it is not unreasonable to be question if he will adjust his role to maximize the talent and ability of this new LAL roster.

I personally think they'll be a great team no matter what but Kobe is the one who will decide if this team can go all the way or not.

This is wrong. Did you actually watch a lot of Lakers games last year? Kobe deferred more than enough. Bynum had a career year because he gave Bynum a ton more opportunities.

The problem occured when Bynum failed to take advantage of having the ball more and got punked by Perkins all series and did nothing against McGee before that. NOT Kobe's fault they went out so quickly (Barring 1 stupid turnover in a game they lost)

ldawg
09-26-2012, 08:17 AM
Like it or not Lakers will role with the combo or players that best fit together. Look Jordan played the same way no pep from anyone. These two players have 11 rings between the two. so what ever bad shot they took to make great ones has work for them. This year will be no different. Your blabber about ball hog will not break the confidence of this player. It aint work then and it aint going to work now. He played with fisher for who by the way is not a very good one and they lack shooters last season. Bynum was good but once the defense zoom in he was exposed. If you have not seen the many adjustment Kobe has made to compensate for his decline ability and the the fit of his teammates your an idiot. He do tend to shoot to much at times but he is the type of player that will go down pulling the trigger injured,tired,making or missing if his teammate are not stepping up and dont give a crap what u think. Talk to the rings on finger. In fact Lebron did not win until he got a little selfish he was being knock for passing to much when he should have been trying to take over the game.

thenaj17
09-26-2012, 08:24 AM
Gasol has put up back-to-back post season PERs of 17.3/17.0, back-to-back post-season TS%s under .500. Last year he failed to make the all-star team, or any All-NBA teams rewarding regular season play. Those numbers/accolades are not compatible with a player who is still characterized as one of the 'best offensive bigs in the NBA'; Gasol is living off reputation just as much as Bryant at this point in time. Gasol is aging and is no longer in his prime. He's also inefficient and passive when removed from the box on the elbow; why would Kobe ever defer to him given his current standing/role in the offense? The blame for that goes on Gasol, but on Mike Brown as well.

Bynum saw his FGA per game nearly double from 2011 to 2012. That couldn't have happened unless Bryant (team leader in USG%) made a committed effort to get him the ball. Touches were not an issue for Bynum, commitment to get Bynum the ball on Bryants end was not an issue.

Bynum 2011: 7.6 FGA per game.
Bynum 2012: 13.3 FGA per game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01.html

As a fan who studies ever Laker game and box score, let me tell you that Bryants touches rarely came at the expense of Bynum or Gasol. Their touches as a duo were statistically unaffected by Bryants slight increase in FGA per game during the 2012 campaign.

Bynum & Gasol 2011: 21.3 FGA per game, 30.1 points per game.
Bynum & Gasol 2012: 27.4 FGA per game, 36.1 points per game.

Those are the numbers.

Kobes touches went up, but the duo of Bynum/Gasol saw their touches increase as a tandem as well. The explanation is simple; Lamar Odoms touches had to go somewhere. And instead of giving those FGAs (10.9 per game) to Derek Fisher, Ron Artest, Matt Barnes, Steve Blake, or any other below average offensive player on the roster, they were proportionately absorbed by Kobe and to the duo on the box. The Lakers simply didn't have the pieces off the bench or at the PG/SF positions to make up for Odom, it had to be absorbed by their big three. Kobe deferred to the post in 2012 just as much, if not more than he has in past seasons; it usually works out pretty well considering the fact that his team has locked up championships five times in the past thirteen seasons.




Isolating one game in a non-NBA tournament isn't the best way to make your point here (context/competition). But since you brought it up, lets look at the numbers for the tournament. Over the course of the 2012 Olympics (8 games) Bryant scored 97 points on 70 FGAs. That comes out to 1.38 points per field goal attempt. Bryant was 17/39 from three for the tournyment (44%) and 20/22 from the line (91%).

Those figures combine to create a TS% of .609. Extremely efficient and effective; your point regarding the efficiency of his Olympic play is null & void.
http://www.london2012.com/basketball/event/men/teamstatistics/type=cumulative-tot/index.html


Isolating individual games to make your point isn't the best approach to the argument. I could mention the fact that he had 13/19 & 14/23 shooting performances, I could also mention that he shot 50% in games played from April 1st through May 1st (8 games, 2 playoff).

I could mention that he shot 45.5% from the field for the month of January while averaging 31.2 ppg (a FG% right on his career average). I could mention that Mike Brown bumped Bryant up in minutes by 4.6 minutes per game in the condensed 2012 season, compared to his 2011 average. I could mention that he was 4th in the NBA in minutes per game during the 2012 season despite being a sixteen year veteran. I could argue that Bryant played great in January before Browns minute distribution and rotations took the life out of his legs. But that would be cherry picking to make my point; it wouldn't be an honest reflection or analysis. Fact is, he had very pedestrian scoring efficiency for the season (.527 TS%); efficiency numbers that are still notably better than what Gasol has posted in back-to-back post seasons with the Lakers. You exaggerate a bit much on exactly how poor his efficiency has become, and you offer no context or balanced explanation for as to why it happened. Wana sig bet me that his TS% will be higher in 2013 than it was in 2012? :nod:


If you're going to post the numbers, make sure they're correct. Bryant never once shot 30% from the field against OKC in the playoffs. He shot in the high 30's several times, but he never shot straight up 30% from the field. Bryant shot 43% against them for the series, while getting to the line ten times per game.

Kobes TS% wasn't great against OKC (.515). And I hate to break it to ya, but neither was Bynums or Gasols. Turns out Kobe was actually the most efficient out of the big three, despite the fact that he wasn't very efficient himself:
Bynum posted a TS% of .513 against OKC
Gasol posted a TS% of .502 against OKC

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01/gamelog/2012/#70-74-sum:pgl_advanced_playoffs
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01/gamelog/2012/#97-101-sum:pgl_advanced_playoffs

The truth is, is that the 2012 Lakers were poorly constructed from 4-15, they weren't well rounded, had zero floor spreading and a pathetic bench. Rather than put all of that blame on Kobe, you should observe the stats and embrace the obvious; Bryant, Bynum and Gasol were smothered by a better, younger, hungrier team with a better bench and a better coach.

Perhaps with better floor spreading, a better bench, and the addition of Steve Nash, Kobe and Pau will look more like their 2010 incarnations in 2013.

Bruno, this is absolutely perfect. You saved me a lot of time typing to shoot down this imbecile. Just watching the games, it was obvious Kobe was deferring a hell of a lot. Thank you Sir!

ldawg
09-26-2012, 08:56 AM
If you have not seen the many adjustments kobe made your a media brat.

SteBO
09-26-2012, 09:20 AM
I know Kobe takes a ton of shots, but even as a Miami fan I have to admit that Kobe at times had no choice but to do what he did, simply because Pau and Bynum were so piss poor at points during the playoffs. I guarantee that at this point in Kobe's career he's going to adjust his game enough to fit what's best for the Lakers going forward.

Nash and Howard get brought up a lot, but am I the only one who thinks Pau is going to more vital moving forward with this core? He's really their best low post player that is more than capable of scoring inside when fed in the post. Not to say that Dwight can do the same, but he's a liability on that end sometimes due to his pathetic FT shooting.

Iron24th
09-26-2012, 10:13 AM
This is wrong. Did you actually watch a lot of Lakers games last year? Kobe deferred more than enough. Bynum had a career year because he gave Bynum a ton more opportunities.

The problem occured when Bynum failed to take advantage of having the ball more and got punked by Perkins all series and did nothing against McGee before that. NOT Kobe's fault they went out so quickly (Barring 1 stupid turnover in a game they lost)

No he didn't watch a lot of Lakers games, even if he claims he did, cause if he did, he would have never said that.

ldawg
09-26-2012, 11:44 AM
No he didn't watch a lot of Lakers games, even if he claims he did, cause if he did, he would have never said that.No he did not. Even if kobe pass the ball more Lakers were not going to win with the way that team was constructed they had no shooters to spread the floor. Never in history a team with that bad of a bench has won the championship. Lets not forget Artest was missing to look at his munbers when he came back. Sorry to burst his bubble but passing the ball to Bynum when he was turning the ball over on double team will not win you that prize. His shot fell below .500 against okc with 1.5apg. I am sure If it is one thing Bynum worked on this summer was learn how to handle and pass out off double teams. Kobe got trigger happy in the final game when he realize they were not going to beat OKC he did not even get mad when they lost he already knew it was coming. After being in the finals so much you know when the odds are against you. That is why Lakers shook things up a bit in hopes of motivation of some folks and get lucky. That team was the talk of trades not win rings. Many people seem to be mistaken Bynum for Shaq. Shaq avg 30ppg playing with Kobe and Kobe Avg 35ppg without Pau or Shaq. No one talk smak when him and Pau was the main two guys and went 3 trips to the finals and won two. Then here come a healthy Bynum and all of a sudden they cant get out the 2nd round. All Lakers needed from Bynum was to control the paint. But nooooooo i want more touches. Bynum has never even came close to being defensive player of the year. The key to that team was Pau in the paint but he needed that defensive player by his side. The only way for that team to work to implement Bynum was Pau had to let him run the inside. Bynum time would have came once he was ready to handle that load but he was a bit ahead of himself. Two players prime to win now should shut down their game and watch the window close so the young fellow can learn from his mistakes and disrespect the coach. The dude was not even doing team huddles. The way i look at it last year was a learning experience for Bynum a wasted one for the Lakers. But It will make him a better player this season.

KingPosey
09-26-2012, 12:26 PM
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."
Douglas wanted me to pass on the message that forced obscurity is his thing.

KingPosey
09-26-2012, 12:29 PM
He will defer, AND ballhog a bit. I expect that from Kobe, and respect that from Kobe.

I have always found it weird that ever since the big 4 year (Malone Payton), everytime the Lakers bring in a big star, he has to open mouth kiss another big name player on the team, to build "unity". It has always seemed creepy and doesnt make sense to me.

ldawg
09-26-2012, 12:41 PM
All i want from Kobe is to be Kobe. Read the game find mismatch if its not there do your thing. you got two 7 footers in one a rebound machine he will get it. the easiest two points he will get. The last thing i want to see kobe do is be joe. no pun intend. If Kobe was not Kobe then there would be no Kobe we have no clue Lakers add 5 more rings in the last decade if there was no Kobe. He did not win 5 rings trying to be joe. Its very important he remain Kobe. that is Kobe thats what he does he is the shooting guard of the La Lakers that draws double and triple teams. I dont see why Kobe got to become Joe for nash. How many ppg did Nash do last season? Do nash got rings? Look Kobe is a smart guy he will adjust they will use each player for their strong points. Nash will handle the ball quite a bit thats what he do. But history will say Kobe has the ball with game on the line if that is what it comes down to. Howard would be more than stupid for wanting it in crunch knowing he cant hit ft. that not his strong point.
I expect Kobe and Howard to be the focal point. Nash will be the primary ball handler something Kobe never had outside Payton. Pau Numbers will continue to slide because of a reduce roll. Kobe may avg 23-25ppg Howard 19-23ppg Nash 8-10ppg 7-11apg Artest 6-8ppg Gasol 10-13ppg the rest goes to the bench. those numbers depend on min played. The key is the coach, minutes played keeping his team fresh. Kobe had to play to many minutes last season and had to do to much to keep this team among the elite. that should not be a problem this year him and Nash should stay fresh if everything goes according to plan.

Kobe would be stupid to mold his game off joe. His game is mold off the greatest player in the history of the game and he has found success doing so. no use changing it now unless he wake up a dead eye shooter or grows 7' 280lb.

3RDASYSTEM
09-26-2012, 01:03 PM
well considering the fact he came in the league as a 'backup guard' and had to 'outwork' everybody else with such a 'out of this world' work ethic(only him and TOM BRADY and JETER have it according to mainstream media) and prove others wrong im sure he will be motivated to stay as the 'man' entering his 17th season..he didnt change at 18 wanting to be the man,didnt at age 25 and dont expect it to change now at 34yrs of age...you are who you are from day 1 to the wheels fall off...


its like KB became accepted/legend off a ring in 2000

im still trying to figure out how did a backup guard become top 5 alltime? like c'mon, a top 5 a top 3 player ever was a backup guard for yrs? thats pure comedy, a top 3-5 player off alltime should only come off bench when he is old and pretty much done, not when he has all his youth/athletic ability...check the top 5-10 alltime list and im pretty sure KB is the only YOUNG 'backup turned allstar/champion'.... guarantee it



why wasnt he the man from day 1 in 1996 but was the man in 2000 or 2003 or 2006(10yrs later in career)?

why did SHAQ enter league in 92 and sign a 135million dollar contract 4yrs(1996) later into career with LA while KB was just getting a fulltime starting gig with LA 4yrs into his career finally with DIESEL as his running mate in 2000 ?


excuses excuses

nickdymez
09-26-2012, 01:08 PM
well considering the fact he came in the league as a 'backup guard' and had to 'outwork' everybody else with such a 'out of this world' work ethic(only him and TOM BRADY and JETER have it according to mainstream media) and prove others wrong im sure he will be motivated to stay as the 'man' entering his 17th season..he didnt change at 18 wanting to be the man,didnt at age 25 and dont expect it to change now at 34yrs of age...you are who you are from day 1 to the wheels fall off...


its like KB became accepted/legend off a ring in 2000

im still trying to figure out how did a backup guard become top 5 alltime? like c'mon, a top 5 a top 3 player ever was a backup guard for yrs? thats pure comedy, a top 3-5 player off alltime should only come off bench when he is old and pretty much done, not when he has all his youth/athletic ability...check the top 5-10 alltime list and im pretty sure KB is the only YOUNG 'backup turned allstar/champion'.... guarantee it



why wasnt he the man from day 1 in 1996 but was the man in 2000 or 2003 or 2006(10yrs later in career)?

why did SHAQ enter league in 92 and sign a 135million dollar contract 4yrs(1996) later into career with LA while KB was just getting a fulltime starting gig with LA 4yrs into his career finally with DIESEL as his running mate in 2000 ?


excuses excuses

I must be missing something. Kobe is a backup now???:speechless: :facepalm:

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-26-2012, 01:44 PM
well considering the fact he came in the league as a 'backup guard' and had to 'outwork' everybody else with such a 'out of this world' work ethic(only him and TOM BRADY and JETER have it according to mainstream media) and prove others wrong im sure he will be motivated to stay as the 'man' entering his 17th season..he didnt change at 18 wanting to be the man,didnt at age 25 and dont expect it to change now at 34yrs of age...you are who you are from day 1 to the wheels fall off...


its like KB became accepted/legend off a ring in 2000

im still trying to figure out how did a backup guard become top 5 alltime? like c'mon, a top 5 a top 3 player ever was a backup guard for yrs? thats pure comedy, a top 3-5 player off alltime should only come off bench when he is old and pretty much done, not when he has all his youth/athletic ability...check the top 5-10 alltime list and im pretty sure KB is the only YOUNG 'backup turned allstar/champion'.... guarantee it



why wasnt he the man from day 1 in 1996 but was the man in 2000 or 2003 or 2006(10yrs later in career)?

why did SHAQ enter league in 92 and sign a 135million dollar contract 4yrs(1996) later into career with LA while KB was just getting a fulltime starting gig with LA 4yrs into his career finally with DIESEL as his running mate in 2000 ?


excuses excuses



All I got out of your incoherent post...

jajajajajajajajajaj, rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble.

ldawg
09-26-2012, 01:59 PM
All I got out of your incoherent post...

jajajajajajajajajaj, rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble.lol... me to. I:clap: thought it was only me.

Evolution23
09-26-2012, 07:02 PM
Nash will get him the ball where he likes it... in his mouth

ldawg
09-26-2012, 08:52 PM
Nash will get him the ball where he likes it... in his mouthkeep that happy stuff in NY. aint no balls going in no mouth in LA.

C-Style
09-26-2012, 09:12 PM
Gasol has put up back-to-back post season PERs of 17.3/17.0, back-to-back post-season TS%s under .500. Last year he failed to make the all-star team, or any All-NBA teams rewarding regular season play. Those numbers/accolades are not compatible with a player who is still characterized as one of the 'best offensive bigs in the NBA'; Gasol is living off reputation just as much as Bryant at this point in time. Gasol is aging and is no longer in his prime. He's also inefficient and passive when removed from the box on the elbow; why would Kobe ever defer to him given his current standing/role in the offense? The blame for that goes on Gasol, but on Mike Brown as well.

Bynum saw his FGA per game nearly double from 2011 to 2012. That couldn't have happened unless Bryant (team leader in USG%) made a committed effort to get him the ball. Touches were not an issue for Bynum, commitment to get Bynum the ball on Bryants end was not an issue.

Bynum 2011: 7.6 FGA per game.
Bynum 2012: 13.3 FGA per game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01.html

As a fan who studies ever Laker game and box score, let me tell you that Bryants touches rarely came at the expense of Bynum or Gasol. Their touches as a duo were statistically unaffected by Bryants slight increase in FGA per game during the 2012 campaign.

Bynum & Gasol 2011: 21.3 FGA per game, 30.1 points per game.
Bynum & Gasol 2012: 27.4 FGA per game, 36.1 points per game.

Those are the numbers.

Kobes touches went up, but the duo of Bynum/Gasol saw their touches increase as a tandem as well. The explanation is simple; Lamar Odoms touches had to go somewhere. And instead of giving those FGAs (10.9 per game) to Derek Fisher, Ron Artest, Matt Barnes, Steve Blake, or any other below average offensive player on the roster, they were proportionately absorbed by Kobe and to the duo on the box. The Lakers simply didn't have the pieces off the bench or at the PG/SF positions to make up for Odom, it had to be absorbed by their big three. Kobe deferred to the post in 2012 just as much, if not more than he has in past seasons; it usually works out pretty well considering the fact that his team has locked up championships five times in the past thirteen seasons.




Isolating one game in a non-NBA tournament isn't the best way to make your point here (context/competition). But since you brought it up, lets look at the numbers for the tournament. Over the course of the 2012 Olympics (8 games) Bryant scored 97 points on 70 FGAs. That comes out to 1.38 points per field goal attempt. Bryant was 17/39 from three for the tournyment (44%) and 20/22 from the line (91%).

Those figures combine to create a TS% of .609. Extremely efficient and effective; your point regarding the efficiency of his Olympic play is null & void.
http://www.london2012.com/basketball/event/men/teamstatistics/type=cumulative-tot/index.html


Isolating individual games to make your point isn't the best approach to the argument. I could mention the fact that he had 13/19 & 14/23 shooting performances, I could also mention that he shot 50% in games played from April 1st through May 1st (8 games, 2 playoff).

I could mention that he shot 45.5% from the field for the month of January while averaging 31.2 ppg (a FG% right on his career average). I could mention that Mike Brown bumped Bryant up in minutes by 4.6 minutes per game in the condensed 2012 season, compared to his 2011 average. I could mention that he was 4th in the NBA in minutes per game during the 2012 season despite being a sixteen year veteran. I could argue that Bryant played great in January before Browns minute distribution and rotations took the life out of his legs. But that would be cherry picking to make my point; it wouldn't be an honest reflection or analysis. Fact is, he had very pedestrian scoring efficiency for the season (.527 TS%); efficiency numbers that are still notably better than what Gasol has posted in back-to-back post seasons with the Lakers. You exaggerate a bit much on exactly how poor his efficiency has become, and you offer no context or balanced explanation for as to why it happened. Wana sig bet me that his TS% will be higher in 2013 than it was in 2012? :nod:


If you're going to post the numbers, make sure they're correct. Bryant never once shot 30% from the field against OKC in the playoffs. He shot in the high 30's several times, but he never shot straight up 30% from the field. Bryant shot 43% against them for the series, while getting to the line ten times per game.

Kobes TS% wasn't great against OKC (.515). And I hate to break it to ya, but neither was Bynums or Gasols. Turns out Kobe was actually the most efficient out of the big three, despite the fact that he wasn't very efficient himself:
Bynum posted a TS% of .513 against OKC
Gasol posted a TS% of .502 against OKC

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01/gamelog/2012/#70-74-sum:pgl_advanced_playoffs
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01/gamelog/2012/#97-101-sum:pgl_advanced_playoffs

The truth is, is that the 2012 Lakers were poorly constructed from 4-15, they weren't well rounded, had zero floor spreading and a pathetic bench. Rather than put all of that blame on Kobe, you should observe the stats and embrace the obvious; Bryant, Bynum and Gasol were smothered by a better, younger, hungrier team with a better bench and a better coach.

Perhaps with better floor spreading, a better bench, and the addition of Steve Nash, Kobe and Pau will look more like their 2010 incarnations in 2013.

Andrew32, you got owned on this one, good job Bruno87

Andrew32
09-26-2012, 09:52 PM
This is wrong. Did you actually watch a lot of Lakers games last year? Kobe deferred more than enough. Bynum had a career year because he gave Bynum a ton more opportunities.

The problem occured when Bynum failed to take advantage of having the ball more and got punked by Perkins all series and did nothing against McGee before that. NOT Kobe's fault they went out so quickly (Barring 1 stupid turnover in a game they lost)

Yes I watched plenty of Laker games and most of their playoff games.
The truth is Kobe did a poor job playing inside/out ball.

He did not consistently get Bynum/Gasol touches and would have multiple stretches in games and especially in the 4th Q where he simply did not look at all to involve them in the offense.

If this was back in 2009 and he could still give you 25-30 nightly on usually good efficiency then his style of play might have worked but he isn't that player anymore.

Bynum is young and Gasol was misused in their offense so it is no surprise that their production and efficency dropped in the playoffs with Kobe playing less team oriented ball and them having to deal with random sporadic touches.

I don't blame it all on Kobe I just think he could have played smarter and less selfishly and that team would have ended up doing much better.

I don't believe Gasol and Bynum were maximized in that offense... not even close.

Kobe was too inefficient/inconsistent last year to be a successful teams main offensive anchor and he forced himself into that role anyway.
There was no reason they couldn't have be given more touches.

I predicted they would not accomplish anything last year with Kobe gunning the way he was and I was right.

Looking at a larger sample size (the regular season) both Gasol and Bynum blew Kobe away in efficiency and consistent on the offensive end.
There was no reason they couldn't be given more touches.

C-Style
09-26-2012, 09:55 PM
Yes I watched plenty of Laker games and most of their playoff games.
The truth is Kobe did a poor job playing inside/out ball.

He did not consistently get Bynum/Gasol touches and would have multiple stretches in games and especially in the 4th Q where he simply did not look at all to involve them in the offense.

Bynum is young and Gasol was misused in their offense so it is no surprise that their production and efficency dropped in the playoffs with Kobe playing less team oriented ball and them having to deal with random sporadic touches.

I don't blame it all on Kobe I just think he could have played smarter and less selfishly and that team would have ended up doing much better.

I don't believe Gasol and Bynum were maximized in that offense... not even close.

Kobe was too inefficient/inconsistent last year to be a successful teams main offensive anchor and he forced himself into that role anyway.

I predicted they would not accomplish anything last year with Kobe gunning the way he was and I was right.

It did not take long to see that you actually did NOT watch a lot of Lakers games.

Andrew32
09-26-2012, 09:59 PM
It did not take long to see that you actually did NOT watch a lot of Lakers games.

Sounds to me like you didn't since I am only speaking from observation.
Maybe you just don't see it because you are a fan of the team... that is reasonable.

I am not attacking Kobe.
He had some nice games in the playoffs and in the regular season but I felt he tried to carry a load heavier then he was capable of and he had a team where that wasn't really necessary.

They would have done better with a more balanced offense and with Kobe being more reasonably efficient/consistent on the offensive end like he was back in the late 00's.

amos1er
09-26-2012, 10:09 PM
Andrew32, you got owned on this one, good job Bruno87

Oh no...don't say that to him. When I did he nearly cried and threatened to add me to his ignore list.

Andrew32
09-26-2012, 10:11 PM
nvm.

ldawg
09-26-2012, 10:31 PM
Sounds to me like you didn't since I am only speaking from observation.
Maybe you just don't see it because you are a fan of the team... that is reasonable.

I am not attacking Kobe.
He had some nice games in the playoffs and in the regular season but I felt he tried to carry a load heavier then he was capable of and he had a team where that wasn't really necessary.

They would have done better with a more balanced offense and with Kobe being more reasonably efficient/consistent on the offensive end like he was back in the late 00's.no. that team maxed out last season. The only thing that would have save them was Bynum becoming a better passer and Blake, Sessions, Kobe, Artest and Barns became better 3 point shooters. Okc pack the Paint and Made Bynum less effective on both ends. Kobe got them to the finish line by trying to outscore them but got gas out by a younger team. Same thing happened to Spurs and Boston. The younger teams had more energy at the end of games. Once La was exposed in a 7 game show down in round 1 it was all down hill from there. In fact La played like crap all year long their bench was the worst, they were slow, they shot awful from the arc and they fell short on defense. All of that Resulted a very bad road team. Most of their wins were at home and were ugly wins. Who was Kobe passing to when they had trouble of their own? What you are saying is like Tony parker should of pass more. After a season like that had La won i would think rigged. Lakers tried everything from all angles they just could not stop OKC. the game is played on two sides of the floor.

This year will be different they have a bench, better shooters and most important a pg. Session never played in big games like that and lost minutes to blake of all people. Nash if healthy is another animal. And a drfensive player in the paint.

GREATNESS ONE
09-26-2012, 10:33 PM
:laugh2:

LoveMeOrHateMe
09-26-2012, 11:25 PM
Nash will get him the ball where he likes it... in his mouth

Only a New York fan would say that

LoveMeOrHateMe
09-26-2012, 11:37 PM
Has he?
He probably could have won much more if he hadn't been a ballhog.

The fact that he won 5 titles doesn't really mean anything.

We all know Kobe is a great player... one of the best guards ever to play the game but he also has by far had the greatest luck ever in terms of career supporting casts and circumstances (rules changes / matchups etc).

So in reality winning 5 titles is not that impressive considering those factors.
If anything I consider it a bit of an under-achievement in my book.

He also won 3 of those titles as a supporting player and only 1 as the clear #1/engine of his team (2009).

That said Kobe is a great player... one of the best ever but he cannot put himself above the team if he wants to win another Ring.

Just stfu with you Kobe bias already every damn thread you dock Kobe for everything smh

C-Style
09-27-2012, 12:27 AM
Sounds to me like you didn't since I am only speaking from observation.
Maybe you just don't see it because you are a fan of the team... that is reasonable.

I am not attacking Kobe.
He had some nice games in the playoffs and in the regular season but I felt he tried to carry a load heavier then he was capable of and he had a team where that wasn't really necessary.

They would have done better with a more balanced offense and with Kobe being more reasonably efficient/consistent on the offensive end like he was back in the late 00's.

Kobe has never changed his style of play from 08, 09, & 10. I honestly don't know what ur referring too? He has been playing the same way for a long time now & has proven more than enough times that he knows how to win. You don't think the loses attribute to other things? like a horrible season, a new coach who could not implement any type of offense, 2 key teammates being traded for basically nothing, exhaustion after 4 long runs? Maybe U just don't see it because you seem to have a thing against Kobe? ur track record pretty much shows that.

Andrew32
09-27-2012, 12:50 AM
Kobe has never changed his style of play from 08, 09, & 10.
Yeah... but he isn't the same player anymore.

#1. Kobe is older now. He cannot anymore score 25-30ppg while retaining any form of decent efficiency/consistency.
#1. They had a different coach / system back then.
#2. They had different players and guys like Gasol were utilized correctly.

Both Gasol and Bynum were significantly more consistent and efficient then Kobe last year offensively but instead of Kobe giving them more touches which would have led to higher % shots he just continued to gun often taking the same amount of shots as both of them combined.

If your main offensive anchor is inefficient/inconsistent you probably aren't gonna win anything.
If he is on a bad team then it is excusable since he has no other options but Kobe had options.

You may say he did a fine job of feeding his bigs but I disagree.
I think he did a poor job of consistently keeping them involved especially in the playoffs.

Anyway I don't want to argue lets just say we have a difference in opinion.
I also have nothing at all against Kobe... no reason to think that.

John Walls Era
09-27-2012, 02:31 AM
He never won as Da Man. He lost when he had a Ben Wallace at the age of 33... Oops, wrong thread.

ldawg
09-27-2012, 07:01 AM
Most of the arguments are bias, they are more from hate than logic. All i keep seeing Kobe this kobe that and not one basketball reason why they lost. Of the whole nba Kobe is the only player that avg 27ppg and hog the ball. Give OKC credit they were the better team they went on and cool a hot Spurs to. I wonder who over there ball hog to much. No way Lakers won that series remove Kobe,Pau,Bynum then look again. Why do you think the three of them played so many minutes last season. If Kobe had pass the ball more they would have won rather than him chucking the ball? Only one team can win and its usually the best one. If you look at the whole season its very clear which one was better. OKC