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C-Style
09-14-2012, 11:29 PM
2000s





2000: S.O'Neal

2. T.Duncan

3. A.Mourning

4. K.Malone



Shaq, clearly da best player in da NBA in 2000 4 the 1st time in his career. No doubt about this 1. Who was the best after O'Neal? Timmy was the best last year and I would say he was the 2nd best in 2000. Injuries did hurt his status, but due to the lack competition Duncan was still the 2nd best player in the NBA. After that come Mourning and Malone once again, both played at a similar level and still were the top in the league.

2001: S.O'Neal

2. T.Duncan

3. K.Bryant

4. K.Garnett


Shaquille reclaims his spot as da #1 player in the NBA. Timmy once again finished as the 2nd best player in the NBA for the 2nd straight year. After them it gets a little open for who will be the 3rd best player in the NBA. This year da 3rd best player was Bryant. His play in da playoffs was spectacular and is what you would want out of your top guard. Kevin Garnett took the 4th spot, as he was starting to become a dominant player on his own.


2002: S.O'Neal

2. T.Duncan

3. K.Bryant

4. K.Garnett


For the 3rd straight year O'Neal was the best player in the NBA. He led his LA Lakers to yet another NBA championship. Duncan for the 3rd straight year comes in 2nd, he did though win the MVP. And once again, it was wide open after O'Neal and Duncan. This year it was between McGrady and Kobe for who was the 3rd best player in the NBA. There statistics were nearly even, however Kobe played for the championship team, while T-Mac couldn't even get his team out of the 1st round. Furthermore, Kobe played well in the Finals and was the better defender.


2003: T.Duncan

2. S.O'Neal

3. K.Garnett

4. K.Bryant


In 2003 we had a new best player in the league. Tim Duncan for the 2nd time in his career was called the best player in the NBA. He won the NBA MVP and proved his superiority outplaying O'Neal in the playoffs when it counted the most. Tim Duncan was able to deliver for the Spurs while O'Neal didn't play as well as Duncan. In 2003 the 3rd best player was harder to choose than usual. McGrady/Kobe/KG all played great in 03 and had good arguments. However KG was now establishing himself as a very good NBA player and was just ahead of Kobe or McGrady with his 23/13/6 and All-Defensive 1st selection. He also was clearly 2nd in MVP voting not to far behind Duncan clinching him as a Top 3 player in the league.


2004: K.Garnett

2. T.Duncan

3. S.O'Neal

4. K.Bryant


In 2004 Garnett was peaking as an NBA player. He won the MVP by a landslide as great as or greater than O'Neal in 2000 or Jordan in 96. He by far had the best PER in the league, and led his Timberwolves to the best record in the west and took them to the WCF. He was simply brilliant in 2004. Duncan and O'Neal remained Top 3. Their difference from 2003 remained about the same in 2004.


2005: T.Duncan

2. K.Garnett

3. S.O'Neal

4. S.Nash


Duncan-Garnett-O'Neal were once again the Top 3 players in the NBA for the 3rd straight year. Duncan for the 3rd time in his career received the label of being the best in the NBA leading his San Antonio Spurs team to yet another title. He was great all throughout the playoffs and eventually won the Finals MVP for the 3rd time in his career. KG, though a great player again, failed to make the playoffs in 2005. Keep in mind the Wolves were competitive all season long, and if KG slipped from 04, it was only a little. O'Neal at age 32 was still dominating and a Top 3 player finishing 2nd in MVP voting.


2006: K.Bryant

2. D.Wade

3. T.Duncan

4. D.Nowitzki


In 2006 the Duncan-KG-O'Neal era had finally ended. These 3 players were Top 3 material for 3 years in a row. Kobe Bryant was considered the best player in the game in 2006 with an outstanding 35/5/5 season while being named to All-Defensive 1st. After Kobe comes Dwyane Wade. The NBA Finals MVP was just spectacular in the NBA Finals. He singlehandedly lifted the Miami Heat over the Dallas Mavericks to give his team the NBA championship. He outplayed Dirk Nowitzki, who also had a shot at top 3. Tim Duncan remained Top 3, had a sluggish season, but proved in the playoffs he can still compete with the best. LeBron James just missed the Top 3 cut.


2007: T.Duncan

2. K.Bryant

3. L.James

4. D.Nowitzki


After averaging a career low 18.6ppg, Duncan bounced back in 2007 proving to the league he was still an amazing player. He was still as good as he was in 2004-2005 and was the best player on a championship team. After Duncan came Kobe and LBJ. Kobe once again put up great numbers while being a great defender. LBJ's numbers fell in 2007, however he stepped up in the playoffs and took his team to the NBA Finals. Dirk Nowitzki had a good argument for Top 3 in 2007, however he choked miserably in the NBA playoffs.


2008: K.Bryant

2. L.James

3. C.Paul

4. K.Garnett


In 2008 Kobe Bryant had regained his title as the best player in the NBA. He won the NBA MVP and led his Laker team to the NBA Finals. And once again following Kobe was LBJ. He had another great year on a horrible team yet managed to take them to the 2nd round. Chris Paul made his debut as a Top 3 player in the NBA with a brilliant year averaging 21/11 while leading his team to a 2nd seed in the West. Duncan might've had an argument for Top 3, however in the Spurs vs. Hornets series , CP3 showed that he was the best player on the floor.



2009: K.Bryant

2.L. James

3. D.Wade

4. D.Howard

Kobe Bryant also was amazing this year. Leading his team to the championship and winning Finals MVP. He also had a great individual season and stepped up whenever his team needed him to in the playoffs. The LeBron vs Kobe era really begins. Fantastic year for LBJ. Leading his team to 66 wins with little talent around him. Furthermore, he led the league in PER and won the MVP award. He also was very dominant in the playoffs, averaging over 35ppg and leading his team to the conference finals but failed to make the Finals in a disappointing loss against Dwight & teammates. After Lebron it's the epic season of Dwyane Wade. He probably had his best individual season, playing spectacular all season long. Dwight, far 4th.






2010: K. Bryant


2. L. James

3. D.Wade

4. D.Howard


I gave Kobe the edge because he still possessed the leadership and ability to lead his team to the championship. And he proved it by winning his 5th championship. For the 2nd straight year, I felt this year LeBron had the best argument against Kobe as the best player in the NBA. It's actually very applaud worthy to lead a team like that to over 60 wins. In the playoffs, they once again didn't get too far considering being the favorites for 2nd time in a row, nonetheless, besides for 1-2 games, LeBron James himself played well. After Kobe & LeBron it was between Wade and Howard. Wade had regressed a bit from last year's phenomenal season while It was even closer between Howard and Wade. Wade though not as effective as last year, was still a superstar and able to dominate games. I felt Howard still lacked the superstar takeover ability, averaging less than 20ppg. But he was still very close due to his rebounding and defensive presence.





2011: L.James


2. D.Howard

3. D.Nowitzki

4. D.Wade/K.Bryant


For the 1st time Lebron is crowned as the best player in the NBA. IF I had #1 pick in a draft playing just 1 season (2011), I would give it to LeBron James without question, His game came full circle, Defensevly he matured and was no longer a streaky defender, much more consistent. He just impacted the game more than any other player in the league. He could score, rebound, defend, and pass very well for his position, Oh and did I mention, he improved in the post. After him is Dwight Howard, who had his best offensive production up to date and was actually playing like a superstar this season. Dirk Nowitzki finishes 3rd due to his strong playoff performance. Wade & Kobe remain a Top 4/5 player in the NBA.





2012: L.James


2. K.Durant

3. C.Paul

4. D.Howard



LeBron James was once again the best player in the NBA. It was much easier choosing him than the year before. He played consistent all the way until his team won the NBA championship. Kevin Durant is recognized as a Top 4 player for the 1st time in his career, nearly winning the NBA championship. Chris Paul takes the 3rd spot reminding everyone he is the best PG in the league. Dwight Howard fell a little from last year due to his off-court issues and injuries, otherwise he would be 2.

LBJ6
09-14-2012, 11:42 PM
Basically the best during that year should have played in the finals? right. Well I guess this is not an individual best.

PurpleJesus
09-14-2012, 11:45 PM
Basically the best during that year should have played in the finals? right. Well I guess this is not an individual best.

No, the best does not have had to play in the finals...basketball is a team game.

seikou8
09-14-2012, 11:45 PM
kobe bryant was only the best one year

seikou8
09-14-2012, 11:47 PM
No, the best does not have had to play in the finals...basketball is a team game.

but lebron was better than kobe in 2010 and 09 and yet because won a ring he is better:rolleyes:

LBJ6
09-14-2012, 11:49 PM
No, the best does not have had to play in the finals...basketball is a team game.

Yes, but based on the list it is, except for Kobe in 2006 of course.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-14-2012, 11:49 PM
kobe bryant was only the best one year

Disagree, I don't think he was the best any year. Don't even think he's top 20 all-time. He's overrated if you ask me.

seikou8
09-14-2012, 11:51 PM
Disagree, I don't think he was the best any year. Don't even think he's top 20 all-time. He's overrated if you ask me.

you naps that heat fan

C-Style
09-14-2012, 11:54 PM
but lebron was better than kobe in 2010 and 09 and yet because won a ring he is better:rolleyes:

Yup, fans certainly did have LeBron ahead of Kobe in 2010, or both. But the NBA consensus, in the NBA was that Kobe was still the better player in the NBA. fans can argue this all day & night.GM's, Players such as Jordan, Magic & Bird all had Kobe ahead of Lebron.

C-Style
09-14-2012, 11:56 PM
Yes, but based on the list it is, except for Kobe in 2006 of course.

What years do you disagree on?

JNoel
09-14-2012, 11:58 PM
Wade can make a strong case for being better than Kobe in 2006 and 2009.

LBJ6
09-15-2012, 12:04 AM
What years do you disagree on?

Can you give clarifications between years 2006 and 2009 or 2010.

justinnum1
09-15-2012, 12:05 AM
lol at kobe being the best player in any year

DoMeFavors
09-15-2012, 12:10 AM
Dwight Howard 2012?

jerellh528
09-15-2012, 12:15 AM
oh god here come the heat fans discrediting anyone saying kobe has ever been best, this is getting really ****ing old

Kobes a Killer
09-15-2012, 12:16 AM
lol at kobe being the best player in any year

LOL at the Kobe hating Heat fan

amos1er
09-15-2012, 12:17 AM
Wade can make a strong case for being better than Kobe in 2006 and 2009.

Uhhhh....no.

jerellh528
09-15-2012, 12:17 AM
kobe bryant was only the best one year


Wade can make a strong case for being better than Kobe in 2006 and 2009.


lol at kobe being the best player in any year

:facepalm:

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 12:17 AM
lol at kobe being the best player in any year

Exactly! It's kinda preposterous that Kobe would be regarded as the best player in any season. I mean, he never had the best PER or TS% or even the highest WinShares on his own team.

jerellh528
09-15-2012, 12:18 AM
Exactly! It's kinda preposterous that Kobe would be regarded as the best player in any season. I mean, he never had the best PER or TS% or even the highest WinShares on his own team.

i completely agree, he should just retire because wade rules and #1 SG.

Bull Rush
09-15-2012, 12:19 AM
Rose should be on 2011 list.

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 12:20 AM
Why does Kobe get the nod for 06 when he didn't win, but put up the 'best' stats yet LeBron doesn't get one for the 08-10 years?

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 12:21 AM
lol at kobe being the best player in any year

06 every other year he has no argument imo.

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 12:22 AM
Exactly! It's kinda preposterous that Kobe would be regarded as the best player in any season. I mean, he never had the best PER or TS% or even the highest WinShares on his own team.

Amnesty Kobe :dance:

justinnum1
09-15-2012, 12:24 AM
06 every other year he has no argument imo.

All he did was shoot more than any other player. If he was efficient he could have averaged 40 taking as many shots as he did.

and lol at people trying to troll saying amnesty kobe. Weak.

kswissdaf
09-15-2012, 12:30 AM
Im sorry but i don't care about about anything else on that list but D Wade in the 08- 09 was the best player in the NBA i've never seen a player have a better individual season.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 12:31 AM
All he did was shoot more than any other player. If he was efficient he could have averaged 40 taking as many shots as he did.

and lol at people trying to troll saying amnesty kobe. Weak.

If its so easy and all you have to do is just take 40 shots a game, how come Lebron hasn't broken into the 60+ club yet?

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 12:32 AM
All he did was shoot more than any other player. If he was efficient he could have averaged 40 taking as many shots as he did.

Regardless of if he could have scored more he still has a statistical case for being the best player that year.


and lol at people trying to troll saying amnesty kobe. Weak.

I rarely troll, in fact I normally see you referred to as one around these boards but i guess its whatever.

kswissdaf
09-15-2012, 12:32 AM
O and if you going to say 2010 Kobe was better then Lebron 2010, then Dwade in 06 was better then kobe

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 12:33 AM
All he did was shoot more than any other player. If he was efficient he could have averaged 40 taking as many shots as he did.

and lol at people trying to troll saying amnesty kobe. Weak.

If its so easy and all you have to do is just take 40 shots a game, how come Lebron hasn't broken into the 60+ club yet?

Because he actually passes the ball. :rimshot:

justinnum1
09-15-2012, 12:33 AM
If its so easy and all you have to do is just take 40 shots a game, how come Lebron hasn't broken into the 60+ club yet?

Because he doesn't need to score 60 to win. and what ballhog said^

LBJ6
09-15-2012, 12:34 AM
Why does Kobe get the nod for 06 when he didn't win, but put up the 'best' stats yet LeBron doesn't get one for the 08-10 years?

That is exactly what I thought.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 12:34 AM
Im sorry but i don't care about about anything else on that list but D Wade in the 08- 09 was the best player in the NBA i've never seen a player have a better individual season.

cool story bro...but your opinion doesn't mean squat. Most experts who opinions aren't homers will disagree wholeheartedly.

jericho
09-15-2012, 12:34 AM
Wtvr the yr was that tmac got to the magics he was better then Kobe he was better I think was for like 5 yrs just because you make it to the finals doesn't mean you are the best basketball player it just means you have the better basketball team

amos1er
09-15-2012, 12:35 AM
That is exactly what I thought.

It wasn't just the best stats...it was a historic record breaking season.

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 12:35 AM
O and if you going to say 2010 Kobe was better then Lebron 2010, then Dwade in 06 was better then kobe

Agree.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 12:35 AM
Wtvr the yr was that tmac got to the magics he was better then Kobe he was better I think was for like 5 yrs just because you make it to the finals doesn't mean you are the best basketball player it just means you have the better basketball team

wow

:facepalm:

C-Style
09-15-2012, 12:36 AM
oh god here come the heat fans discrediting anyone saying kobe has ever been best, this is getting really ****ing old

I don't see any Heat fans!

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 12:37 AM
That is exactly what I thought.

It wasn't just the best stats...it was a historic record breaking season.

How so?

Edit: Regardless you still didn't answer the question.

C-Style
09-15-2012, 12:38 AM
Rose should be on 2011 list.

I kinda disagree, He deserved the MVP no question, I do think he will be on my list in many yrs to come.

LBJ6
09-15-2012, 12:40 AM
It wasn't just the best stats...it was a historic record breaking season.

Breaking what?

kswissdaf
09-15-2012, 12:41 AM
cool story bro...but your opinion doesn't mean squat. Most experts who opinions aren't homers will disagree wholeheartedly.

Umm no pretty sure they wouldn't. Casual fans like your self didn't really pay attention to D Wade that year because that team around was so garbage that Michael Beasley was the second best player on the team.

C-Style
09-15-2012, 12:43 AM
Wtvr the yr was that tmac got to the magics he was better then Kobe he was better I think was for like 5 yrs just because you make it to the finals doesn't mean you are the best basketball player it just means you have the better basketball team

you know, I did mention other players other than Kobe!:eyebrow:

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 12:44 AM
I love How people say look at statistics{points} and say he was better than Bron...Bron was better than Kobe by a lot because he did everything well... LOOK AT ALL STATS AND NOT JUST POINTS...It is easy to score a ton when you shoot a ton...see Iverson. The fact that people are also saying look at the experts...Who is an expert Jordan???? Lol why because he played the game? Numbers do not lie and Lebron across the board is was and will be better when it is all said and done... Jordan is a great basketball player but a flat out moronic GM so stop using him as an example to make a Kobe case.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 12:45 AM
Umm no pretty sure they wouldn't. Casual fans like your self didn't really pay attention to D Wade that year because that team around was so garbage that Michael Beasley was the second best player on the team.

Ok...no point arguing with you. You are a hater and you have your mind made up already. I could go and post links with nearly everybody in the NBA back in 2009 saying that Kobe was the best that year. But it won't even do any good so I won't waste my time.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 12:46 AM
90 percent of experts are morons because they do not factor in everything...They go by championships and what not and that is just flawed... No one player can win a championship...The logic experts use to make a case for KOBE is ********...Kobe is great but he was not better than Bron in those years and Bron will go down as the better player when all is said and done... I hate the heat but my god look at what the man is doing.

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 12:47 AM
I love How people say look at statistics{points} and say he was better than Bron...Bron was better than Kobe by a lot because he did everything well... LOOK AT ALL STATS AND NOT JUST POINTS...It is easy to score a ton when you shoot a ton...see Iverson. The fact that people are also saying look at the experts...Who is an expert Jordan???? Lol why because he played the game? Numbers do not lie and Lebron across the board is was and will be better when it is all said and done... Jordan is a great basketball player but a flat out moronic GM so stop using him as an example to make a Kobe case.

*than

C-Style
09-15-2012, 12:47 AM
Wade can make a strong case for being better than Kobe in 2006 and 2009.

Notice how every player lurks in the top 3 before being considered the "BEST", U can't just place a player as the best because he had a good year without having any arguments prior, He just had great season in 06. Wade can certainly make a case over Kobe in 09, great player.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 12:47 AM
*than

:yawn:

amos1er
09-15-2012, 12:48 AM
I love How people say look at statistics{points} and say he was better than Bron...Bron was better than Kobe by a lot because he did everything well... LOOK AT ALL STATS AND NOT JUST POINTS...It is easy to score a ton when you shoot a ton...see Iverson. The fact that people are also saying look at the experts...Who is an expert Jordan???? Lol why because he played the game? Numbers do not lie and Lebron across the board is was and will be better when it is all said and done... Jordan is a great basketball player but a flat out moronic GM so stop using him as an example to make a Kobe case.

Iverson only scored 60 + points and shot less than 45%. Every time Kobe scored 60+ he was well above 50%. He shot over 60% when he scored 81. If its so easy to do, then why hasn't Lebron or Wade broken into the 60+ club yet?

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 12:48 AM
*than

:yawn:

:)

amos1er
09-15-2012, 12:50 AM
Notice how every player lurks in the top 3 before being crowned the "BEST", U can't just place a player as the best because he had a good year without having any arguments prior, He just had a great yr and that's it. Wade can certainly make a case over Kobe in 09, great player.

I agree that Wade can make a case and he was great that year, but when all is said and done, Kobe gets the nod...all the experts, coaches, and players opinions will confirm that.

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 12:50 AM
I love How people say look at statistics{points} and say he was better than Bron...Bron was better than Kobe by a lot because he did everything well... LOOK AT ALL STATS AND NOT JUST POINTS...It is easy to score a ton when you shoot a ton...see Iverson. The fact that people are also saying look at the experts...Who is an expert Jordan???? Lol why because he played the game? Numbers do not lie and Lebron across the board is was and will be better when it is all said and done... Jordan is a great basketball player but a flat out moronic GM so stop using him as an example to make a Kobe case.

Iverson only scored 60 + points and shot less than 45%. Every time Kobe scored 60+ he was well above 50%. He shot over 60% when he scored 81. If its so easy to do, then why hasn't Lebron or Wade broken into the 60+ club yet?

So you don't believe that LeBron or Wade could score 60? :eyebrow:

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 12:51 AM
Iverson only scored 60 + points and shot less than 45%. Every time Kobe scored 60+ he was well above 50%. He shot over 60% when he scored 81. If its so easy to do, then why hasn't Lebron or Wade broken into the 60+ club yet?

Does Kobe put up 60 often? Does any player put up 60 often? Why is 60 being used as a measuring tool for how great a player is? He can have fun averaging 60 while lebron Shoots better/Defends better/Rebounds Better/Passes more and is more efficient across the board... I like Kobe but if you are using 60 point games as a measuring stick you sir have no argument unless he does it often which he does not.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 12:53 AM
I agree that Wade can make a case and he was great that year, but when all is said and done, Kobe gets the nod...all the experts, coaches, and players opinions will confirm that.

Experts/Players/Coaches are morons as a whole...They go by omg it is Kobe Bryant instead of fully dissecting what he does when compared to a guy like Lebron... If it was most popular player at that time Kobe wins but the better player was Lebron

amos1er
09-15-2012, 12:55 AM
So you don't believe that LeBron or Wade could score 60? :eyebrow:

Seeing is believing.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 12:55 AM
When any one player finds a way to win a title by themselves the championship argument when measuring players against each other can then be used.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 12:57 AM
Experts/Players/Coaches are morons as a whole...They go by omg it is Kobe Bryant instead of fully dissecting what he does when compared to a guy like Lebron... If it was most popular player at that time Kobe wins but the better player was Lebron

Ya, and your opinion is more credible how? :rolleyes:

C-Style
09-15-2012, 12:58 AM
Ya, and your opinion is more credible how? :rolleyes:
:whistle: its just is, aright!

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 12:59 AM
So you don't believe that LeBron or Wade could score 60? :eyebrow:

Seeing is believing.

Nice saying still doesn't answer my question. Do you honestly believe that Dwade and LeBron can't score 60 if they wanted to?

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 12:59 AM
Ya, and your opinion is more credible how? :rolleyes:

Again they use championships as a measuring tool when deciding the best player....That is fine for best team but what one player wins a title by themselves? Answer me this and I will admit they are not morons...Sorry but their logic is flawed and them being in the league does not make them the omg smartest... The average JOE can study the game and know more period.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 01:00 AM
Kobe sucks, he's a rapist, was a sidekick to Shaq, he's not better than LeBron. I mean c'mon, the man should die a horrible horrible death.



(Things that go on in the mind of a Kobe hater).

C-Style
09-15-2012, 01:01 AM
When any one player finds a way to win a title by themselves the championship argument when measuring players against each other can then be used.

When ur team are favorites to win it all 2 years in a roll, and u fail, it does hurt. BTW take off the Kobe hater glasses off, I did not mention Kobe every yr.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 01:01 AM
Kobe sucks, he's a rapist, was a sidekick to Shaq, he's not better than LeBron. I mean c'mon, the man should die a horrible horrible death.



(Things that go on in the mind of a Kobe hater).

Man this is just as bad as the Kobe haters honestly.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:02 AM
When any one player finds a way to win a title by themselves the championship argument when measuring players against each other can then be used.

The championship argument is not the end all be all, but it shows what a player can do on the biggest stage when everything is on the line. When they show that they can go all the way in a leadership role...it says a lot. Lebron chocked in 2011 when he had the team to get the job done, therefore it showed that he didn't have the heart of a winner even though he had the tools to get the job done. Since playing is about winning, that should be weighed heavily when measuring players.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 01:02 AM
When ur team are favorites to win it all 2 years in a roll, and u fail, it does hurt. BTW take off the Kobe hater glasses off, I did not mention Kobe every yr.

see the word in bold

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 01:02 AM
When any one player finds a way to win a title by themselves the championship argument when measuring players against each other can then be used.

The championship argument is not the end all be all, but it shows what a player can do on the biggest stage when everything is on the line. When they show that they can go all the way in a leadership role...it says a lot. Lebron chocked in 2011 when he had the team to get the job done, therefore it showed that he didn't have the heart of a winner even though he had the tools to get the job done. Since playing is about winning, that should be weighed heavily when measuring players.

********.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 01:03 AM
The championship argument is not the end all be all, but it shows what a player can do on the biggest stage when everything is on the line. When they show that they can go all the way in a leadership role...it says a lot. Lebron chocked in 2011 when he had the team to get the job done, therefore it showed that he didn't have the heart of a winner even though he had the tools to get the job done. Since playing is about winning, that should be weighed heavily when measuring players.

yes James choked...His team didnt but James did...Gotcha :facepalm:

C-Style
09-15-2012, 01:04 AM
Again they use championships as a measuring tool when deciding the best player....That is fine for best team but what one player wins a title by themselves? Answer me this and I will admit they are not morons...Sorry but their logic is flawed and them being in the league does not make them the omg smartest... The average JOE can study the game and know more period.

Well they must know something u don't, or just a coincidence? But you notice how they did not say Fisher was a better player than Lebron because he won a ring those 2 years?

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:04 AM
Again they use championships as a measuring tool when deciding the best player....That is fine for best team but what one player wins a title by themselves? Answer me this and I will admit they are not morons...Sorry but their logic is flawed and them being in the league does not make them the omg smartest... The average JOE can study the game and know more period.

Thats all finde and dandy, but I think I'll go on taking the expert opinions the most seriously and take the "average Joe's" with a grain of salt...expecially when they are Lebron fans. :rolleyes:

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 01:04 AM
KoMe CRYant Sucks!

C-Style
09-15-2012, 01:06 AM
When ur team are favorites to win it all 2 years in a roll, and u fail, it does hurt. BTW take off the Kobe hater glasses off, I did not mention Kobe every yr.




see the word in bold


Read the bold

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:06 AM
yes James choked...His team didnt but James did...Gotcha :facepalm:

James had the worst finals performance for an individual franchise player in NBA history. His 4th quarter stats were piss poor and a shame to anyone claiming to be the best in the game.

bucketss
09-15-2012, 01:06 AM
lol at the amount of cott damn disrespect dwade gets SMFDH

C-Style
09-15-2012, 01:07 AM
Thats all finde and dandy, but I think I'll go on taking the expert opinions the most seriously and take the "average Joe's" with a grain of salt...expecially when they are Lebron fans. :rolleyes:

He's a Lebron fan?

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 01:07 AM
Thats all finde and dandy, but I think I'll go on taking the expert opinions the most seriously and take the "average Joe's" with a grain of salt...expecially when they are Lebron fans. :rolleyes:

Lebron fan? I am an nba fan and understand there is more than just throwing up a ton of shots and scoring a ton of points...I understand that there is more than 1 player on the court at all time. I respect lebrons game and do not hate just to hate like most.... I am a Kobe fan as well but the statistics do not lie....Should I say Lebron sucks because I do not like him? That would make me look dumb

bucketss
09-15-2012, 01:09 AM
Thats all finde and dandy, but I think I'll go on taking the expert opinions the most seriously and take the "average Joe's" with a grain of salt...expecially when they are Lebron fans. :rolleyes:

experts ranked kobe 7th best player in the league are you gonna go with their "expert" opinion or is that a little of a inconvenience at the moment?

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 01:11 AM
Thats all finde and dandy, but I think I'll go on taking the expert opinions the most seriously and take the "average Joe's" with a grain of salt...expecially when they are Lebron fans. :rolleyes:

experts ranked kobe 7th best player in the league year, are you gonna go with their "expert" opinion or is that a little of a inconvenience at the moment?

No cuz five rings yo!

C-Style
09-15-2012, 01:11 AM
lol at the amount of cott damn disrespect dwade gets SMFDH

The thing about Wade is that he can never maintain a high level of play yr after yr Like the Bird's, Magic's, Jordan's, Bron's & Kobe's(u get da pt). One yr he looks like a top 3 player in the NBA, then he has kinda bad yr. IF he would flirt with 09 yr consistently, I would had considered him in the same combo as Bron

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:12 AM
experts ranked kobe 7th best player in the league year, are you gonna go with their "expert" opinion or is that a little of a inconvenience at the moment?

That was BSPN. They always have hated on Kobe. I'm talking about the coaches, majority of fans, players, and the experts as a whole...not just a hand full of the ones with special interests that work for the evil four letter. Stephen A and Skip are the ones who know a damn thing about basketball out of all the ESPN so called experts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebvLPKsPrUM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4vKf1epV0A&feature=related

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 01:16 AM
That was BSPN. They always have hated on Kobe. I'm talking about the coaches, majority of fans, players, and the experts as a whole...not just a hand full of the ones with special interests that work for the evil four letter. Stephen A and Skip are the ones who know a damn thing about basketball out of all the ESPN so called experts.

So Now you are picking and choosing and making excuses to help out your opinion instead of using facts? :pity:

Clearly I am a Bron homer and thus my opinion is tainted... You are not a Kobe homer so you are clearly right...Congrats good sir.

C-Style
09-15-2012, 01:16 AM
Lebron fan? I am an nba fan and understand there is more than just throwing up a ton of shots and scoring a ton of points...I understand that there is more than 1 player on the court at all time. I respect lebrons game and do not hate just to hate like most.... I am a Kobe fan as well but the statistics do not lie....Should I say Lebron sucks because I do not like him? That would make me look dumb

Statistics say Dwight shoots a higher percentage than Lebron. Is he better offensively? And IF you are a Kobe fan, WHY are you only making this about Kobe, I put up 12yrs, Why don't u have such passionate opinion for those? Is it cause Lebron is not the best player in 09-10?

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:19 AM
Statistics say Dwight shoots a higher percentage than Lebron. Is he better offensively? And IF you are a Kobe fan, WHY are you only making this about Kobe, I put up 12yrs, Why don't u have such passionate opinion for those? Is it cause Lebron is not the best player on the list?

Exactly. :clap:

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:21 AM
So Now you are picking and choosing and making excuses to help out your opinion instead of using facts? :pity:

Clearly I am a Bron homer and thus my opinion is tainted... You are not a Kobe homer so you are clearly right...Congrats good sir.

I actually posted two videos directly relating to that Kobe ranking 7th comment you made earlier. Maybe you should watch them and get back to me. Maybe you will be enlightened. Doubtful though...once a hater always a hater.

bucketss
09-15-2012, 01:22 AM
That was BSPN. They always have hated on Kobe. I'm talking about the coaches, majority of fans, players, and the experts as a whole...not just a hand full of the ones with special interests that work for the evil four letter. Stephen A and Skip are the ones who know a damn thing about basketball out of all the ESPN so called experts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebvLPKsPrUM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4vKf1epV0A&feature=related

neither of those guys contributed in the rankings.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:26 AM
neither of those guys contributed in the rankings.

They should have because they are the only ones who know what they are talking about. They also are not being payed off by Nike and Gatorade unlike other corrupt individuals who work for the evil four letter.

bucketss
09-15-2012, 01:30 AM
They should have because they are the only ones who know what they are talking about. They also are not being payed off by Nike and Gatorade unlike other corrupt individuals who work for the evil four letter.

hahaha wait i thought you posted those to show how bad espn was. you actually agree with them? skipp is a troll that says stuff to get a reaction espn pays him to be controversial i can't believe you actually commending this man im shocked bahahhaa.

i don't want to live on this planet anymore.

bucketss
09-15-2012, 01:33 AM
c-style come get your boy even you have to admit that was just ridiculous.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 01:39 AM
Statistics say Dwight shoots a higher percentage than Lebron. Is he better offensively? And IF you are a Kobe fan, WHY are you only making this about Kobe, I put up 12yrs, Why don't u have such passionate opinion for those? Is it cause Lebron is not the best player in 09-10?

Dwight also shoots from a few feet out...Dwight dominates at a position that isn't really deep... It is difficult to compare any non center against a center period... I talk about kobe because if you look at 90 percent of the posts in here it is a Kobe/Bron debate and I gave my thoughts on that.

jbeezy
09-15-2012, 01:42 AM
Kobe's legacy ***** all over Lebron. Kobe is, was and always will be better than Dwayne "I'm crying because I have a boo boo" Wade.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:42 AM
hahaha wait i thought you posted those to show how bad espn was. you actually agree with them? skipp is a troll that says stuff to get a reaction espn pays him to be controversial i can't believe you actually commending this man im shocked bahahhaa.

i don't want to live on this planet anymore.

I'm not saying that they were correct. I'm just saying that everyone on ESPN doesn't agree that Kobe was only 7th best. Skip and Stephen A are a bit off sometimes, but they do have it right more than the other goons at BSPN. I don't agree with them that Lebron didn't deserve a top five ranking back in 2011 and I think that Lebron was the best player in the second half of the 2010 season because Kobe was injured. But Kobe did come through in the playoffs after he had his knee drained so It's debatable on who was the best in the league in 2010. Clearly either Lebron or Wade was the best back in 2011 and Lebron is the best in 2012.

That said, Kobe was best in 06-09 without a doubt. In 2001 he was 1b to Shaq's 1a.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 01:43 AM
Kobe's legacy ***** all over Lebron. Kobe is, was and always will be better than Dwayne "I'm crying because I have a boo boo" Wade.

Um Lebron has many many more years to go in his prime...Talking legacy is a bit premature... That being said I do not disagree with Kobe/Wade

bucketss
09-15-2012, 01:44 AM
I actually posted two videos directly relating to that Kobe ranking 7th comment you made earlier. Maybe you should watch them and get back to me. Maybe you will be enlightened. Doubtful though...once a hater always a hater.

also both of them said dwade is the best player in the league. i hope you agree:facepalm:

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:44 AM
Dwight also shoots from a few feet out...Dwight dominates at a position that isn't really deep... It is difficult to compare any non center against a center period... I talk about kobe because if you look at 90 percent of the posts in here it is a Kobe/Bron debate and I gave my thoughts on that.

Exactly, now your making my point for me. Lebron plays closer to the basket, so his fg% is going to be higher than Kobe's naturally. You have to take degree of difficulty into account as well.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:46 AM
also both of them said dwade is the best player in the league. i hope you agree:facepalm:

I don't agree entirely, but they made some good points about how Lebron is overrated and at least they had the decency to provide some insight into their opinions unlike the corrupt goons who made the original list to begin with.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 01:48 AM
Exactly, now your making my point for me. Lebron plays closer to the basket, so his fg% is going to be higher than Kobe's naturally. You have to take degree of difficulty into account as well.

Not disagreeing...Why do you assume I am just going by 1 or 2 stats? That would be idiotic on my part.

bucketss
09-15-2012, 01:48 AM
I'm not saying that they were correct. I'm just saying that everyone on ESPN doesn't agree that Kobe was only 7th best. Skip and Stephen A are a bit off sometimes, but they do have it right more than the other goons at BSPN. I don't agree with them that Lebron didn't deserve a top five ranking back in 2011 and I think that Lebron was the best player in the second half of the 2010 season because Kobe was injured. But Kobe did come through in the playoffs after he had his knee drained so It's debatable on who was the best in the league in 2010. Clearly either Lebron or Wade was the best back in 2011 and Lebron is the best in 2012.

That said, Kobe was best in 06-09 without a doubt. In 2001 he was 1b to Shaq's 1a.

i rather have kobe ranked 7 than have a list where lebron isn't even a top 5 player and carmelo is in the top 5? neither of these two idiot know a damn thing. that fool stephen smith embarrasses himself on every damn show which is amazing considering who sits across him.

mngopher35
09-15-2012, 01:49 AM
Kobe was not better than Lebron in 08-09 or 09-10. In 08-09 it was somewhat close so I can see how an argument could be attempted, but saying kobe was better than Lebron in 09-10 makes me question the list. Also Wade was better imo in 08-09 as well. Your list seems biased because it appears you give kobe credit for winning the title in these years yet in 2006 you have kobe over wade but wade won the title.

bucketss
09-15-2012, 01:51 AM
I don't agree entirely, but they made some good points about how Lebron is overrated and at least they had the decency to provide some insight into their opinions unlike the corrupt goons who made the original list to begin with.

i would respect them if they weren't so fake. its obvious especially Stephen smith how fake they are. skipp makes this grin every time he says something ******** hes a troll i would respect if he was at least genuine.

LakersMaster24
09-15-2012, 01:52 AM
2000 Not Kobe
2001 Not Kobe
2002 Not Kobe
2003 Not Kobe
2004 Not Kobe
2005 Not Kobe
2006 Not Kobe
2007 Not Kobe
2008 Not Kobe
2009 Not Kobe
2010 Not Kobe
2011 Not Kobe
2012 Not Kobe

:clap:

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:54 AM
i rather have kobe ranked 7 than have a list where lebron isn't even a top 5 player and carmelo is in the top 5? neither of these two idiot know a damn thing. that fool stephen smith embarrasses himself on every damn show which is amazing considering who sits across him.

Both lists are not accurate. Kobe ranked at 7 is just as bad as Lebron ranked at 6.

Skip and Stephen A are still a lot better than the majority of BSPN analysts.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:55 AM
i would respect them if they weren't so fake. its obvious especially Stephen smith how fake they are. skipp makes this grin every time he says something ******** hes a troll i would respect if he was at least genuine.

Skip is waaay off sometimes, but at least he gave Lebron props this year when he finally got the job done.

C-Style
09-15-2012, 01:57 AM
Dwight also shoots from a few feet out...Dwight dominates at a position that isn't really deep... It is difficult to compare any non center against a center period... I talk about kobe because if you look at 90 percent of the posts in here it is a Kobe/Bron debate and I gave my thoughts on that.

Ok, Since you are now being more objective would you agree that Lebron get's 2 more rebounds than Kobe because he plays Forward and Kobe plays guard?

And that Kobe was the better offensively(aside of passing), Because Kobe shot further than Lebron & because Lebron had no post moves or range(in 09-10) the way Kobe did...Lebron was just an attack the basket kinda player those yrs.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:57 AM
Kobe was not better than Lebron in 08-09 or 09-10. In 08-09 it was somewhat close so I can see how an argument could be attempted, but saying kobe was better than Lebron in 09-10 makes me question the list. Also Wade was better imo in 08-09 as well. Your list seems biased because it appears you give kobe credit for winning the title in these years yet in 2006 you have kobe over wade but wade won the title.

The majority of experts give Kobe the nod in 2009 and 2010 is debatable only because Lebron quit on his team in the playoffs.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 01:58 AM
Ok, Since you are now being more objective would you agree that Lebron get's 2 more rebounds than Kobe because he plays Forward and Kobe plays guard?

And that Kobe was the better offensively(aside of passing), Because Kobe shot further than Lebron & because Lebron had no post moves or range(in 09-10) the way Kobe did...Lebron was just an attack the basket kinda player those yrs.

Exactly, a lot of these guys with Leboners never take degree of difficulty into account.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 01:59 AM
2000 Not Kobe
2001 Not Kobe
2002 Not Kobe
2003 Not Kobe
2004 Not Kobe
2005 Not Kobe
2006 Not Kobe
2007 Not Kobe
2008 Not Kobe
2009 Not Kobe
2010 Not Kobe
2011 Not Kobe
2012 Not Kobe

:clap:

then don't watch

C-Style
09-15-2012, 02:00 AM
Kobe was not better than Lebron in 08-09 or 09-10. In 08-09 it was somewhat close so I can see how an argument could be attempted, but saying kobe was better than Lebron in 09-10 makes me question the list. Also Wade was better imo in 08-09 as well. Your list seems biased because it appears you give kobe credit for winning the title in these years yet in 2006 you have kobe over wade but wade won the title.

I disagree 100%, 09-10 was the only yr that LeBron would have a better case. BUT ur in titled to ur own opinion.

C-Style
09-15-2012, 02:04 AM
Exactly, a lot of these guys with Leboners never take degree of difficulty into account.

Yes Kobe shoots 45-46% but no one can't say he's inconsistent from anywhere on the floor, I don't have the stats, But he is average-above average from anywhere on the floor.


Anyway, does anyone care to discuss other years? Or is this just going to be about Kobe?

bucketss
09-15-2012, 02:05 AM
Both lists are not accurate. Kobe ranked at 7 is just as bad as Lebron ranked at 6.

Skip and Stephen A are still a lot better than the majority of BSPN analysts.

not really kobe is probably 3-5 right now its not too off but putting lebron at 6 is one thing but than to have melo over him and in the top 5? thats beyond stupid. i don't know how big of a troll you have to be to have melo over lebron but thats just my opinion. im sure many would agree though.

amos1er
09-15-2012, 02:06 AM
I disagree 100%, 09-10 was the only yr that LeBron would have a better case. BUT ur in titled to ur own opinion.

I agree as well. kobe was clearly better for the first half of the season, but then his knee gave out in the second half.

Also, Lebron quit on his team in the playoffs and Kobe won it all despite his injuries. It's debatable who was the best that year between Kobe and Lebron, but in 2009 it was Kobe hands down...ask MJ. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBqL2ikTgGY

amos1er
09-15-2012, 02:07 AM
not really kobe is probably 3-5 right now its not too off but putting lebron at 6 is one thing but than to have melo over him and in the top 5? thats beyond stupid. i don't know how big of a troll you have to be to have melo over lebron but thats just my opinion. im sure many would agree though.

Ya, if they had said CP3 instead of melo it would have had more clout.

bucketss
09-15-2012, 02:07 AM
anyways to share my opinon on the thread. i agree for the most part except on 2006. imo wade has to get the nod either 2006 or 2009 or was it 2008 what ever year he came back from surgery and beasted.

bucketss
09-15-2012, 02:09 AM
Ya, if they had said CP3 instead of melo it would have had more clout.

would have been much better atleast cp3 is a top 5 player while melo is borderline top ten

bucketss
09-15-2012, 02:11 AM
I agree as well. kobe was clearly better for the first half of the season, but then his knee gave out in the second half.

Also, Lebron quit on his team in the playoffs and Kobe won it all despite his injuries. It's debatable who was the best that year between Kobe and Lebron, but in 2009 it was Kobe hands down...ask MJ. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBqL2ikTgGY

i gave kobe the edge both years but lets not ask mj clearly he isn't the best evaluator of talent *cough*kwame*cough*

LBJ6
09-15-2012, 02:16 AM
I agree as well. kobe was clearly better for the first half of the season, but then his knee gave out in the second half.

Also, Lebron quit on his team in the playoffs and Kobe won it all despite his injuries. It's debatable who was the best that year between Kobe and Lebron, but in 2009 it was Kobe hands down...ask MJ. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBqL2ikTgGY

I disagree, Bron was the Best in 09, and 10, don't need help from the experts. If you follow the NBA its obvious.

C-Style
09-15-2012, 02:18 AM
anyways to share my opinon on the thread. i agree for the most part except on 2006. imo wade has to get the nod either 2006 or 2009 or was it 2008 what ever year he came back from surgery and beasted.

I think Wade's 09 year has the best case, he came back HARD! I expect big things from Rose, well see if they are from the same cloth.

Anyway,I gave you my reasons why. Man had 09(season) & 06(playoffs) been combined. :speechless:

C-Style
09-15-2012, 02:19 AM
I disagree, Bron was the Best in 09, and 10, don't need help from the experts. If you follow the NBA its obvious.

I guess we follow it with a different set of eyes.

jerellh528
09-15-2012, 02:31 AM
Ok, Since you are now being more objective would you agree that Lebron get's 2 more rebounds than Kobe because he plays Forward and Kobe plays guard?

And that Kobe was the better offensively(aside of passing), Because Kobe shot further than Lebron & because Lebron had no post moves or range(in 09-10) the way Kobe did...Lebron was just an attack the basket kinda player those yrs.

:clap:

mngopher35
09-15-2012, 02:37 AM
in 2008-2009 pts ast rbs ts% per WS/48
Kobe 26.8 4.9 5.2 .561 24.4 .206
Lebron 28.4 7.2 7.6 .591 31.7 .318
in 09-10
Kobe 27 5 5.4 .545 21.9 .160
Lebron 29.7 8.6 7.3 .604 31.1 .299

On top of this by this points in their careers Lebron was playing better defense as well. Watching these two play I though Lebron was pretty obviously better than Kobe and all of the stats seem to back it up. 08-09 Wade is right there with Lebron though so he isnt clearly the best.

C-Style
09-15-2012, 02:48 AM
in 2008-2009 pts ast rbs ts% per WS/48
Kobe 26.8 4.9 5.2 .561 24.4 .206
Lebron 28.4 7.2 7.6 .591 31.7 .318
in 09-10
Kobe 27 5 5.4 .545 29.1 .160
Lebron 29.7 8.6 7.3 .604 31.1 .299

On top of this by this points in their careers Lebron was playing better defense as well. Watching these two play I though Lebron was pretty obviously better than Kobe and all of the stats seem to back it up. 08-09 Wade is right there with Lebron though so he isnt clearly the best.

08-09, Kobe was the better defender. Do you not remember the arguments against Lebron?

Can't post
Can't shoot
Can't defend
Ain't clutch

mngopher35
09-15-2012, 02:53 AM
08-09 I thought he started playing better on d, I agree he wasnt amazing on that end early in his career but he was turning it around by that point. If you consider defense even that year, Lebron still scores more, assists more, rebounds more, all on better efficiency. In 09-10 its even worse for Kobe.

LBJ6
09-15-2012, 02:56 AM
I guess we follow it with a different set of eyes.

Maybe, but I have tried reviewing it by looking at the stats if my eyes missed something.

LBJ6
09-15-2012, 02:59 AM
in 2008-2009 pts ast rbs ts% per WS/48
Kobe 26.8 4.9 5.2 .561 24.4 .206
Lebron 28.4 7.2 7.6 .591 31.7 .318
in 09-10
Kobe 27 5 5.4 .545 29.1 .160
Lebron 29.7 8.6 7.3 .604 31.1 .299

On top of this by this points in their careers Lebron was playing better defense as well. Watching these two play I though Lebron was pretty obviously better than Kobe and all of the stats seem to back it up. 08-09 Wade is right there with Lebron though so he isnt clearly the best.

Wow! 24.4 is better than 31.7.

mngopher35
09-15-2012, 03:13 AM
Wow! 24.4 is better than 31.7.

Also I mistyped 09-10, Kobes per is 21.9, not 29.1. I dont think per is the end all be all stat or anything like that so take it for what its worth. However, it does help show Lebron was more efficient these years while also scoring, assisting, and rebounding better than Kobe.

naps
09-15-2012, 03:31 AM
Why does Kobe get the nod for 06 when he didn't win, but put up the 'best' stats yet LeBron doesn't get one for the 08-10 years?

Oh no! Don't hurt their feeling by asking for objectivity.

basketfan4life
09-15-2012, 03:31 AM
lol at kobe being the best player in any year

hahaha. Oh boy, oh man, man oh man.

naps
09-15-2012, 03:44 AM
2000-2002: Shaq
2003: Duncan
2004: KG
2005: Duncan
2006: Wade/Dirk/Kobe
2007: Duncan
2008-2012: LeBron

magic0320
09-15-2012, 03:48 AM
so sick of stupid heat fans running their mouth....oh well they will disappear in about 3 years just like cavs fans did

C-Style
09-15-2012, 04:17 AM
Kobe Bryant has become so incredibly polarized on the internet that it has become damn-near impossible to have a public conversation about him without it exploding into mayhem.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2012, 04:37 AM
Kobe Bryant has become so incredibly polarized on the internet that it has become damn-near impossible to have a public conversation about him without it exploding into mayhem.

Lebron James/Jeter/Dwight Howard/Yankees/Heat/Rondo all say hi...Any of these subjects and the same happens and the list goes on...Also 90 percent of the basketball area on PSD is Mayhem

LBJ6
09-15-2012, 05:06 AM
Also I mistyped 09-10, Kobes per is 21.9, not 29.1. I dont think per is the end all be all stat or anything like that so take it for what its worth. However, it does help show Lebron was more efficient these years while also scoring, assisting, and rebounding better than Kobe.

Of course per is not basis of it all, but there are really few who reached 30+ per in a season..

KBfrom8to24
09-15-2012, 07:23 AM
kobe bryant was only the best one year

I agree because you should be the best, Imagine this... Seikou8, the best from 2000 - 2012. I mean, the best Kobe hater:D:D:D

Jarvo
09-15-2012, 07:43 AM
No Iverson in 2000 or 2001?

RLundi
09-15-2012, 08:19 AM
I'm neither a LeBron fan nor a Kobe hater but some of the Kobe nut-hugging in this thread is being taken to astronomical levels.

Chronz
09-15-2012, 09:29 AM
If 2009 Kobe was better than Wade then how is 2006 Wade not better than Kobe? They basically switched roles, with either one making the Finals and the other putting up stats. In both cases Wade was superior actually winning when he made the Finals and actually putting up efficient stats the year he was willing trash to the playoffs.



James had the worst finals performance for an individual franchise player in NBA history. His 4th quarter stats were piss poor and a shame to anyone claiming to be the best in the game.

Remember when Kobe met Detroit

Vidball
09-15-2012, 09:53 AM
Has anybody ever taken a weaker team to the Finals for 3 straight years in modern basketball than Kobe did with the Lakers? That 2008 team - more than any of them - had no business sniffing a Finals. Remember, Bynum was broken for '08 and was on one leg for '09. Players and GM's picked him as the best year after year (remember GM surveys?) for a reason. A lot of posters here have a very selective memory.

King Koopa
09-15-2012, 10:22 AM
Iverson only scored 60 + points and shot less than 45%. Every time Kobe scored 60+ he was well above 50%. He shot over 60% when he scored 81. If its so easy to do, then why hasn't Lebron or Wade broken into the 60+ club yet?

Because that's not their type of game... I swear arguing with people that sound like 5 year old's on this forum is ridiculous.

Lebron has been the best player in this league for the last 4 to 5 years hands down. I don't care what anyone says, Look at the stats

Chronz
09-15-2012, 10:24 AM
Has anybody ever taken a weaker team to the Finals for 3 straight years in modern basketball than Kobe did with the Lakers?
Very few teams get to go to the Finals 3 straight years, but if your squad is that good then I doubt they lack in talent. If your just talking about individual years then you can point to a number of teams.



That 2008 team - more than any of them - had no business sniffing a Finals. Remember, Bynum was broken for '08 and was on one leg for '09.
Who exactly was suppose to threaten them in 09? The West was talent deprived in those playoffs. Statistically the best regular season teams were the Blazers and Rockets, and they met in the first round. The Rockets did push the Lakers the full 7 but they did so without Yao on top of Tmac unable to compete all year. Spurs were without Manu, the Jazz without Okur.

The Nuggets were the only real threats that remained healthy and if you were to ask me to look at the talent alongside them, then yea I could see your point. If you were to eliminate the best player from both of those teams, the Nuggets may have more talent but I would say negligibly so, and the fact that Kobe is better than either Melo/Billups, should come as no surprise. In the East the Celtics were on a repeat pace, till KG went down so Bynums absence wasn't as critical.



Players and GM's picked him as the best year after year (remember GM surveys?) for a reason. A lot of posters here have a very selective memory.
They may have picked him as the best but would they say he played the best that year? Its a shame we cant ask them if they feel Wade had a better year than Kobe, what with him winning the chip and all.

Also, I value peer support but lets not stack our entire argument on the words of others.

King Koopa
09-15-2012, 10:25 AM
Has anybody ever taken a weaker team to the Finals for 3 straight years in modern basketball than Kobe did with the Lakers? That 2008 team - more than any of them - had no business sniffing a Finals. Remember, Bynum was broken for '08 and was on one leg for '09. Players and GM's picked him as the best year after year (remember GM surveys?) for a reason. A lot of posters here have a very selective memory.

Wow a Bynum on one leg is better than no Bynum at all. You also forgot to mention that Gasol balled out in his last 2 final's appearances and that you had an All-star coming off the bench (Odom) and a few solid role players. So quit crying so hard.

Lebron>Kobe the last 5 years

seikou8
09-15-2012, 10:29 AM
I agree because you should be the best, Imagine this... Seikou8, the best from 2000 - 2012. I mean, the best Kobe hater:D:D:D

yup i mean you from 2000 -2012 kobe biggest nut hugger in the world.kobe is top 10 player of all time because of his work ethic , will to win and longevity i like kobe but damn just being honest can you give our opinion without being a dumbass .

JNoel
09-15-2012, 10:34 AM
then don't watch

...Again?

kdspurman
09-15-2012, 10:40 AM
Will be interesting to see if the game will ever be this big men dominant for such a consistent stretch again.

MTar786
09-15-2012, 10:43 AM
put kobe as tied for best in 03 with timmy an put kobe as best in 07. and put kobe as second best in 2010.

kobe was the best in
03
06
07
08
09

Andrew32
09-15-2012, 10:55 AM
03
09

Kobe wasn't even close to being the best player on his own team in 03 (Shaq) and both Lebron and Wade were clearly better then Kobe in 09.

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 11:18 AM
James had the worst finals performance for an individual franchise player in NBA history. His 4th quarter stats were piss poor and a shame to anyone claiming to be the best in the game.

:bla:


That was BSPN. They always have hated on Kobe. I'm talking about the coaches, majority of fans, players, and the experts as a whole...not just a hand full of the ones with special interests that work for the evil four letter. Stephen A and Skip are the ones who know a damn thing about basketball out of all the ESPN so called experts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebvLPKsPrUM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4vKf1epV0A&feature=related

Lol you've got to be ******** me.


Statistics say Dwight shoots a higher percentage than Lebron. Is he better offensively? And IF you are a Kobe fan, WHY are you only making this about Kobe, I put up 12yrs, Why don't u have such passionate opinion for those? Is it cause Lebron is not the best player in 09-10?

Shooting is the the only part of offense. Let's take a look at Dwight and Lebrons best season. Heck I'll even throw Kobe in there :D


Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Kobe Bryant 2005-06 27 80 80 41.0 12.2 27.2 .450 2.3 6.5 .347 8.7 10.2 .850 0.9 4.4 5.3 4.5 1.8 0.4 3.1 2.9 35.4
2 Dwight Howard 2010-11 25 78 78 37.6 7.9 13.4 .593 0.0 0.1 .000 7.0 11.7 .596 4.0 10.1 14.1 1.4 1.4 2.4 3.6 3.3 22.9
3 LeBron James 2008-09 24 81 81 37.7 9.7 19.9 .489 1.6 4.7 .344 7.3 9.4 .780 1.3 6.3 7.6 7.2 1.7 1.1 3.0 1.7 28.4

If you looked at the basic stats and ignored pace and efficiency then Kobe looks like the man. But when we take it to a more advanced level then...actually its quite sad really.


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Kobe Bryant 2005-06 27 80 3277 28.0 .559 .491 2.6 12.7 7.6 24.1 2.4 0.7 9.0 38.7 114 105 11.6 3.7 15.3 .224
2 Dwight Howard 2010-11 25 78 2935 26.0 .616 .593 12.6 30.6 21.8 6.8 1.9 4.9 16.2 27.2 113 94 6.7 7.7 14.4 .236
3 LeBron James 2008-09 24 81 3054 31.7 .591 .530 4.3 19.0 11.9 38.0 2.4 2.4 11.0 33.8 122 99 13.7 6.5 20.3 .318


I actually posted two videos directly relating to that Kobe ranking 7th comment you made earlier. Maybe you should watch them and get back to me. Maybe you will be enlightened. Doubtful though...once a hater always a hater.

Why couldn't you just summarized the content of the videos? I swear I've rarely ever seen you give your own point of view on something.


Kobe's legacy ***** all over Lebron. Kobe is, was and always will be better than Dwayne "I'm crying because I have a boo boo" Wade.

Captain Obvious.


Exactly, now your making my point for me. Lebron plays closer to the basket, so his fg% is going to be higher than Kobe's naturally. You have to take degree of difficulty into account as well.

:laugh2:


2000 Not Kobe
2001 Not Kobe
2002 Not Kobe
2003 Not Kobe
2004 Not Kobe
2005 Not Kobe
2006 Maybe Kobe
2007 Not Kobe
2008 Not Kobe
2009 Not Kobe
2010 Not Kobe
2011 Not Kobe
2012 Not Kobe

:clap:

Fixed :)


Both lists are not accurate. Kobe ranked at 7 is just as bad as Lebron ranked at 6.

Skip and Stephen A are still a lot better than the majority of BSPN analysts.

Even if they are better, they both still suck so why are you using them? That's like saying you'd rather have Dwight shoot free throws than DeAndre Jordan to save your life when there are other players (Nash, Ray, Dirk, Curry) that you could pick.


Skip is waaay off sometimes, but at least he gave Lebron props this year when he finally got the job done.

:confused:

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 11:33 AM
Ok, Since you are now being more objective would you agree that Lebron get's 2 more rebounds than Kobe because he plays Forward and Kobe plays guard?

And that Kobe was the better offensively(aside of passing), Because Kobe shot further than Lebron & because Lebron had no post moves or range(in 09-10) the way Kobe did...Lebron was just an attack the basket kinda player those yrs.

Not if the player attacking the basket is so dominant at that aspect that if offsets the marginal gain that range offers. Neither hit 3's at a consistent rate so its not as if they provide that particular intangible. In any event the gap in the passing, rebounding and defense makes this comparison completely ridiculous to say the least.


The majority of experts give Kobe the nod in 2009 and 2010 is debatable only because Lebron quit on his team in the playoffs.

http://i.qkme.me/3p6g04.jpg


Yes Kobe shoots 45-46% but no one can't say he's inconsistent from anywhere on the floor, I don't have the stats, But he is average-above average from anywhere on the floor.


Anyway, does anyone care to discuss other years? Or is this just going to be about Kobe?

Sorry to derail your thread bro, just wanted one simple answer as to why Kobe gets the nod in 06 for his statistical prowess yet he gets the nod in 08-10.


08-09, Kobe was the better defender. Do you not remember the arguments against Lebron?

Can't post
Can't shoot
Can't defend
Ain't clutch

That was the first year Lebron became a good defender imo.


Oh no! Don't hurt their feeling by asking for objectivity.

Apparently it was a "record breaking season" :shrug:


Kobe wasn't even close to being the best player on his own team in 03 (Shaq) and both Lebron and Wade were clearly better then Kobe in 09.

Add Cp3 in that mix as well.

Andrew32
09-15-2012, 11:39 AM
Has anybody ever taken a weaker team to the Finals for 3 straight years in modern basketball than Kobe did with the Lakers.
Wait... what?
Kobe's supporting cast from 08-10 was Top 1-3 every year.

Other then the Celtic's no other team had a comparable overall roster.

Kobe had a high level All-Star in Peak Gasol and a 2nd All-Star level player in Odom coming off the bench + elite roleplayers like Ariza and Artest.

Not to mention the late 00's West was so much weaker then the early 00's West.
Many of the great Super-Star's from the previous era were getting old and declining rapidly and teams were thinning out.
2009 in particular LAL had a super easy road to the title and in 2010 they got very lucky winning against Boston
(Ref's / Injury's) and Kobe wasn't even the best player for LAL that year (Gasol was).

Late 00's Kobe was a great player... don't get me wrong but leading a Top 1-3 league-wide supporting cast to a championship is not very impressive in a GOAT setting.
Those rosters were certainly not weak... especially in comparison to the league at the time.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 01:03 PM
Wow a Bynum on one leg is better than no Bynum at all. You also forgot to mention that Gasol balled out in his last 2 final's appearances and that you had an All-star coming off the bench (Odom) and a few solid role players. So quit crying so hard.

Lebron>Kobe the last 5 years

Here's the funny part about that...

You call Odom an all-star, but he has never once made the all-star team in his career.

Oh and btw....


Rose>Wade for the next 5 yrs and beyond. ;)

LJEATON26
09-15-2012, 01:09 PM
Why not go by who won the MVP each season for the last 12 years?

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 01:10 PM
Here's the funny part about that...

You call Odom an all-star, but he has never once made the all-star team in his career.

Oh and btw....


Rose>Wade for the next 5 yrs and beyond. ;)

He was certainly all-star caliber. Chris Kaman was an all-star before and Odom is miles better than he ever was.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 01:12 PM
He was certainly all-star caliber. Chris Kaman was an all-star before and Odom is miles better than he ever was.

I know, it's kinda sad that even a guy like Kaman has made the all-star team and LO hasn't.


Kaman has a nice jump hook to his game, but Lamar was and probably still is much better in every other aspect of the game.

kswissdaf
09-15-2012, 01:22 PM
If you dont think kobe is the GOAT your a hater straight up

ColtsSpursTerps
09-15-2012, 01:58 PM
nice thread OP it's nice to see in a time-line sort of format how the Duncan-Shaq-KG era ended and then KG and Duncan had some vintage-like seasons later on

justinnum1
09-15-2012, 02:15 PM
I know, it's kinda sad that even a guy like Kaman has made the all-star team and LO hasn't.


Kaman has a nice jump hook to his game, but Lamar was and probably still is much better in every other aspect of the game.

THat has more to do with the lack of centers in the league. While there are a lot of elite power forwards.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 02:16 PM
THat has more to do with the lack of centers in the league. While there are a lot of elite power forwards.

Agree. All-star voting is very flawed. It should just be the starting 5 that fans choose, and then the next 7 best players to round out the bench, regardless of position.

justinnum1
09-15-2012, 02:18 PM
Agree. All-star voting is very flawed. It should just be the starting 5 that fans choose, and then the next 7 best players to round out the bench, regardless of position.



Also, if odom was a starter, he would probably have made an all star game.

Kevj77
09-15-2012, 02:22 PM
I agree with this list except I'd give it to Lebron a little sooner probably from 2009 on. Anyone that thinks Kobe was never the best player in the NBA is just is serious denial.

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 02:24 PM
THat has more to do with the lack of centers in the league. While there are a lot of elite power forwards.

Huh? Kaman made it as a replacement. Position doesn't matter then.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 02:25 PM
Also, if odom was a starter, he would probably have made an all star game.

Mmmm, not necessarily.

I mean there is also that notoriety factor where even if you don't have a strong first half start of the season leading to the all-star break, but the name, reputation and all will still get you those last couple of roster spots on the all-star team.


I mean I remember a bunch of yrs where Duncan, Dirk or Nash wouldn't be playing at an all-star level leading up to the all-star break, but those guys still got chosen because of what they did in the past, and as a result, some deserving guys would get left out.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2012, 02:25 PM
that list is hot garbage. Sorry, but as soon as I didn't see TMac in either 02, or 03', I starter laughing. And then we get down to the Kobe years haha.

Sorry, don't agree with it in the slightest. Btw, LeBron has been the best player for 4 straight seasons.

justinnum1
09-15-2012, 02:28 PM
Mmmm, not necessarily.

I mean there is also that notoriety factor where even if you don't have a strong first half start of the season leading to the all-star break, but the name, reputation and all will still get you those last couple of roster spots on the all-star team.


I mean I remember a bunch of yrs where Duncan, Dirk or Nash wouldn't be playing at an all-star level leading up to the all-star break, but those guys still got chosen because of what they did in the past, and as a result, some deserving guys would get left out.

OK. Im saying if odom was a starter he would have been in an all star game. Do you disagree?

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 02:32 PM
that list is hot garbage. Sorry, but as soon as I didn't see TMac in either 02, or 03', I starter laughing. And then we get down to the Kobe years haha.

Sorry, don't agree with it in the slightest. Btw, LeBron has been the best player for 4 straight seasons.

Cp3 not being on the 09 list kind of irked me as well but I just brushed it off.

Chronz
09-15-2012, 02:33 PM
THat has more to do with the lack of centers in the league. While there are a lot of elite power forwards.

Nah, Stern just voted him in cuz hes a dumbass

Hawkeye15
09-15-2012, 02:36 PM
Cp3 not being on the 09 list kind of irked me as well but I just brushed it off.

Yep. I scanned it quickly, I was laughing after 2002, didn't take it serious at all. CP3 had a valid claim to the MVP award in 2009. Kobe was the best player my ***. He may have been fighting for #3 that season, but he wasn't the best player.

tapajafri
09-15-2012, 02:36 PM
shaq too dominant

tapajafri
09-15-2012, 02:37 PM
Chris Webber should be somewhere (not #1 but somewhere) on that list for 2001, 2002, or 2003.

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 02:46 PM
Yep. I scanned it quickly, I was laughing after 2002, didn't take it serious at all. CP3 had a valid claim to the MVP award in 2009. Kobe was the best player my ***. He may have been fighting for #3 that season, but he wasn't the best player.

Agreed, I'm not sure how the best statistical season by a point guard ever gets overlooked.


Chris Webber should be somewhere (not #1 but somewhere) on that list for 2001, 2002, or 2003.

Nah, 2002 he was injured too much and 03 he has no case what so ever. Now 01 is somewhat debatable but I think most would agree that he was behind Timmy, Shaq, and Tmac and KG that season. Vince is arguable.

nickdymez
09-15-2012, 02:59 PM
Kobe should never be number 1, Lebron should be number 1 since 2000

justinnum1
09-15-2012, 03:00 PM
Kobe should never be number 1

At least you got part of that right.

nickdymez
09-15-2012, 03:01 PM
At least you got part of that right.

I know. And no one cares.

KingPosey
09-15-2012, 03:07 PM
Webber got hosed in those early years.

KingPosey
09-15-2012, 03:07 PM
And Mitch Richmond was still playing in these early years, so mods please adjust for accuracy.

Andrew32
09-15-2012, 03:07 PM
2003 :
1. Duncan/Shaq
2. T-Mac
3. KG
4. Kobe

2003 KG : 24 / 13 / 4apg on 50% shooting.
People forget how good he was.

You could probably argue KG over T-Mac also.

JLynn943
09-15-2012, 03:19 PM
I'd have Iverson at least somewhere on that 2001 list

C-Style
09-15-2012, 03:24 PM
If 2009 Kobe was better than Wade then how is 2006 Wade not better than Kobe? They basically switched roles, with either one making the Finals and the other putting up stats. In both cases Wade was superior actually winning when he made the Finals and actually putting up efficient stats the year he was willing trash to the playoffs.




Remember when Kobe met Detroit

because Wade was not better than Shaq during the season.

C-Style
09-15-2012, 03:26 PM
If you dont think kobe is the GOAT your a hater straight up

South Florida, Got it:roll eyes:


2003 :
1. Duncan/Shaq
2. T-Mac
3. KG
4. Kobe

2003 KG : 24 / 13 / 4apg on 50% shooting.
People forget how good he was.

You could probably argue KG over T-Mac also.

Rolol, AT No-D-T-mac being better than KG & Kobe that yr :laugh2:

C-Style
09-15-2012, 03:30 PM
Has anybody ever taken a weaker team to the Finals for 3 straight years in modern basketball than Kobe did with the Lakers? That 2008 team - more than any of them - had no business sniffing a Finals. Remember, Bynum was broken for '08 and was on one leg for '09. Players and GM's picked him as the best year after year (remember GM surveys?) for a reason. A lot of posters here have a very selective memory.


Nope, but he made them look great, Lamar & Gasol were the only good players, Nothing compared to Wade & Bosh, Or What the Celtics big 3 had going on





Also, if odom was a starter, he would probably have made an all star game.


Lamar was a starter for a long time! lol

Vidball
09-15-2012, 03:30 PM
Wait... what?
Kobe's supporting cast from 08-10 was Top 1-3 every year.

Other then the Celtic's no other team had a comparable overall roster.

Kobe had a high level All-Star in Peak Gasol and a 2nd All-Star level player in Odom coming off the bench + elite roleplayers like Ariza and Artest.

Not to mention the late 00's West was so much weaker then the early 00's West.
Many of the great Super-Star's from the previous era were getting old and declining rapidly and teams were thinning out.
2009 in particular LAL had a super easy road to the title and in 2010 they got very lucky winning against Boston
(Ref's / Injury's) and Kobe wasn't even the best player for LAL that year (Gasol was).

Late 00's Kobe was a great player... don't get me wrong but leading a Top 1-3 league-wide supporting cast to a championship is not very impressive in a GOAT setting.
Those rosters were certainly not weak... especially in comparison to the league at the time.

Great...so I'll ask it again...WHO took a weaker team to the Finals 3 straight years??? Nobody (aside from MJ) in modern bball had what it takes to make it there 3 years straight. Not Duncan, not Barkley, not Malone, not Drexler, not Olajuwon...

jerellh528
09-15-2012, 03:34 PM
2003 :
1. Duncan/Shaq
2. T-Mac
3. KG
4. Kobe

2003 KG : 24 / 13 / 4apg on 50% shooting.
People forget how good he was.

You could probably argue KG over T-Mac also.

tmac better than kobe in 03, wow some people just dispise kobe lol :facepalm:

LakersEaglesLA
09-15-2012, 03:40 PM
All you Kobe haters are Dumb as the day is long. You probably never made a basketball team past elementary school in your life and don't understand the skill only Kobe has had in the NBA since Jordan retired. But you haters won't get your way, no one hears you in mainstream media. The players, Gm's, reporters, and former players will decide. And so far they all have Kobe right behind Jordan. And once Kobe gets these back to back Championships he will have 7 and all you haters will have a miserable life lol I CAN'T WAIT!!

seikou8
09-15-2012, 03:42 PM
All you Kobe haters are Dumb as the day is long. You probably never made a basketball team past elementary school in your life and don't understand the skill only Kobe has had in the NBA since Jordan retired. But you haters won't get your way, no one hears you in mainstream media. The players, Gm's, reporters, and former players will decide. And so far they all have Kobe right behind Jordan. And once Kobe gets these back to back Championships he will have 7 and all you haters will have a miserable life lol I CAN'T WAIT!!

you need help :facepalm:

sager729
09-15-2012, 03:43 PM
Wade over Rose in 2011 is a joke. Rose led the Bulls to the best record in the league, was the MVP and Wade has the best player in the league along his side taking the double teams away from him.

And for whoever said Wade's '09 was the best individual season he has ever seen, must be the smartest 4 year old ever, or only watched basketball in '09.

EDUTEXANS
09-15-2012, 03:52 PM
There's the MVP to decide that, isn't there?

nickdymez
09-15-2012, 03:53 PM
tmac better than kobe in 03, wow some people just dispise kobe lol :facepalm:

exactly. Thats why ive decided to hate Kobe too. Thats the only way you dont get banned around here.

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 03:56 PM
There's the MVP to decide that, isn't there?

:pity:

bucketss
09-15-2012, 03:59 PM
Wade over Rose in 2011 is a joke. Rose led the Bulls to the best record in the league, was the MVP and Wade has the best player in the league along his side taking the double teams away from him.

And for whoever said Wade's '09 was the best individual season he has ever seen, must be the smartest 4 year old ever, or only watched basketball in '09.

doesn't that give wade the edge in the argument than? he wasn't the best player on his team so he couldn't be mvp you think rose was would win mvp if he was alongside lebron??. sure lebron made the game easier but it also meant he didn't get some of the same touches. wade in 2011 was the 2-3 best player in the league rose wasn't even top 5.

mvb815
09-15-2012, 04:00 PM
this thread belongs in the lakers forum

just another kobe fan trying to preach kobe over lebron

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 04:07 PM
:dance: Amnesty Kobe! :dance:



:dance: Amnesty Kobe! :dance:



:dance: Amnesty Kobe! :dance:

amos1er
09-15-2012, 04:10 PM
Very few teams get to go to the Finals 3 straight years, but if your squad is that good then I doubt they lack in talent. If your just talking about individual years then you can point to a number of teams.



Who exactly was suppose to threaten them in 09? The West was talent deprived in those playoffs. Statistically the best regular season teams were the Blazers and Rockets, and they met in the first round. The Rockets did push the Lakers the full 7 but they did so without Yao on top of Tmac unable to compete all year. Spurs were without Manu, the Jazz without Okur.

The Nuggets were the only real threats that remained healthy and if you were to ask me to look at the talent alongside them, then yea I could see your point. If you were to eliminate the best player from both of those teams, the Nuggets may have more talent but I would say negligibly so, and the fact that Kobe is better than either Melo/Billups, should come as no surprise. In the East the Celtics were on a repeat pace, till KG went down so Bynums absence wasn't as critical.



They may have picked him as the best but would they say he played the best that year? Its a shame we cant ask them if they feel Wade had a better year than Kobe, what with him winning the chip and all.

Also, I value peer support but lets not stack our entire argument on the words of others.

Lets not forget that Wade led the league in turnovers in both 06 and 09.

SteBO
09-15-2012, 04:11 PM
LeBron has been the best player in the league for the past 4-5 seasons. And I love how 2006 Kobe is better than 2006 Wade for the simple fact that Kobe put up better stats during the "regular season", yet he's better than LeBron in '09 because he averaged 30 per game during the playoff (small sample size) and won the title. Love how the criteria changes with some of you Laker fans. People forget just efficient and impactul Wade was in '06.....

2006 Regular season
27.2 ppg
5.7 rpb
6.7 apg
.495 shooting %
27.6 PER
57.7 TS%

2006 Playoffs
28.4 ppg
5.9 rpg
5.7 apg
.497 shooting %
26.9 PER
59.3 TS%

All this on the way to the franchises' 1st NBA title and a Finals MVP, while Kobe didn't even make the 2nd round. Absurd.

bucketss
09-15-2012, 04:17 PM
this thread belongs in the lakers forum

just another kobe fan trying to preach kobe over lebron

to be fair to him it doesn't seem like he has an agenda at all. he just gave his opinion and he hasn't been crying at all in this thread like most lebron haters would be.

C-Style
09-15-2012, 04:45 PM
to be fair to him it doesn't seem like he has an agenda at all. he just gave his opinion and he hasn't been crying at all in this thread like most lebron haters would be.


I have Lebron as the best player the last 2 years, say 2010 is very arguable in Brons favor , and don't see anyone dethroning him for many years to come, yet I'm just a "Kobe fan trying to preach kobe over lebron." Only in PSD :rolleyes:

jerellh528
09-15-2012, 04:51 PM
this thread belongs in the lakers forum

just another kobe fan trying to preach kobe over lebron

lol your sig is sad

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 05:11 PM
Lets not forget that Wade led the league in turnovers in both 06 and 09.

Liar :facepalm:


to be fair to him it doesn't seem like he has an agenda at all. he just gave his opinion and he hasn't been crying at all in this thread like most lebron haters would be.

Agreed. C-style is one of the more rational Laker fans on this board.

Andrew32
09-15-2012, 05:18 PM
Great...so I'll ask it again...WHO took a weaker team to the Finals 3 straight years???

Shaq from 00-02 while facing far superior competition (teams) and in a league that didn't change its rules to benefit his style of play (but actually did the opposite).

mvb815
09-15-2012, 05:23 PM
lol your sig is sad

i'm all about that klout score yo

mvb815
09-15-2012, 05:25 PM
Liar :facepalm:



Agreed. C-style is one of the more rational Laker fans on this board.

all you need to do to be a rational lakers fan on this site is close your butthole

the majority seem to be steady dating kobe

jerellh528
09-15-2012, 05:27 PM
all you need to do to be a rational lakers fan on this site is close your butthole

the majority seem to be steady dating kobe

you could say the same about heat fans with wade

RLundi
09-15-2012, 05:28 PM
South Florida, Got it:roll eyes:



Rolol, AT No-D-T-mac being better than KG & Kobe that yr :laugh2:

Lol now you've confirmed you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. 'No-D-T-Mac'? Wow. T-Mac was better than Kobe in 2003. I don't know what you're trying to argue. Cool idea and all, but to be honest, this list is terrible and seems to lack objectivity.

'A' for effort though.

RLundi
09-15-2012, 05:32 PM
And what the hell is up with replacing 'the' with 'da'? Are you purposely trying to lose credibility? I'm less inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to or trust something that looks like it was written by a hood G.

Chronz
09-15-2012, 05:32 PM
tmac better than kobe in 03, wow some people just dispise kobe lol :facepalm:

LOL at you acting as if this hasn't been debated since the year they both shun like never before.

You dont need to hate Kobe to come to that conclusion, but you definitely have to resort to calling it hate if you have no rational argument.

Chronz
09-15-2012, 05:33 PM
because Wade was not better than Shaq during the season.

Shaq missed half the year

Chronz
09-15-2012, 05:33 PM
I'd have Iverson at least somewhere on that 2001 list

Not in an age dominated by bigmen

Andrew32
09-15-2012, 05:33 PM
"No D" T-Mac had an 105-DRTG and .3-DWS in 7 games in 2003.
"All D" Kobe had an 110-DRTG and .2-DWS in 12 games in 2003.

So... really while Kobe may have been better defensively in the regular season T-Mac was better defensively in the playoffs.
So overall I wouldn't give Kobe any significant edge there. Certainly not in terms of actual defensive ability.

T-Mac was also much better offensively that year.
He scored on higher volume on better efficiency and turned the ball over less while creating better for others.

From a purely offensive standpoint I'd take T-Mac's 03 regular season over any of Bryant's.

mvb815
09-15-2012, 05:35 PM
you could say the same about heat fans with wade

i believe that dude, heat fans are the worst, can't fill an arena but everybodys walking around in lebron shirts preaching a team they didn't even like pre-wade.


but two wrongs don't make a right

Chronz
09-15-2012, 05:37 PM
Lets not forget that Wade led the league in turnovers in both 06 and 09.You sure?

jerellh528
09-15-2012, 05:42 PM
im outta here, good day lol

Vidball
09-15-2012, 08:17 PM
Shaq from 00-02 while facing far superior competition (teams) and in a league that didn't change its rules to benefit his style of play (but actually did the opposite).

Sorry, but Kobe carried the Lakers through 2 of those 3 WCF's.

amos1er
09-16-2012, 03:45 AM
For those of you saying that Wade should be the best in either 2006 or 2009 because its a contradiction on why Kobe is considered the best during those years...

Lets break down this argument.

First off we will use a straight up head to head comparisons from both the 2006 and 2009 regular and post seasons, then we will compare using the logic that if you give Kobe the nod for best player in the league due to a great regular season in 06 even though Wade went on to win finals MVP you have to do the same for Wade in 09 even though Kobe went on to win finals MVP. This is a complete fallacy as I will now prove:

Kobe in the 06 regular season: 35.4 ppg, 4.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 55.9, Turnovers per game 3.1, 4th in MVP voting, First Team All NBA, First Team All NBA Defense, led a crappy Lakers team to 45 wins (7 seed), Scored 81 points in a game and 62 in 3 quarters
Wade in the 06 regular season: 27.2 ppg, 6.7 apg, 5.7 rpg, ts% 57.7, Turnovers per game 3.6 (second in the league), 6th in MVP voting, All NBA Second Team, Did not make an All NBA defensive team, Helped lead the Heat to 53 wins (5th best record)

I Think its pretty safe to say that Kobe was the better player during the regular season. Wade did have 2.2 more assists, and .5 more rebounds, but Kobe had 8.2 more points. Now, Wade did have a higher ts% by 1.8, but come one now, thats basically a rounding error. They are essentially even in terms of offensive efficiency and when you consider how much more ppg Kobe put up, its clear to see that Kobe was the far better offensive player. Kobe took a lottery bound team to the playoffs and 45 wins. Wade, with a stacked team and a semi prime Shaq only was able to help the Heat to 52 wins in a weak eastern conference. Not to mention that Kobe was the clear leader of his team and Wade was co-leader along side a semi prime Shaq.

Now add in the legendary moments like the 81 in a game and the 62 in three quarters and its even more of a land slide in favor of Kobe. Then on top of that, Kobe finished higher in MVP voting, was an All NBA first team member, and an All NBA Defensive first team member. Wade was on the second All NBA team, but failed to make any All NBA Defensive team. Now, its even more of a landslide in favor of Kobe. Oh and did I mention that Wade was second in the league in turnovers.

Kobe in the 06 playoffs: 27.9 ppg, 5.1 apg, 6.3 rpg, ts% 58.7, Turnovers per game 4.7, Lost to Phoenix in seven games in the first round
Wade in the 06 playoffs: 28.4, 5.7 apg, 5.9 rpg, ts% 59.3, Turnovers per game 3.9, Won Finals MVP

We have to give Wade the nod of course because he went on to win finals MVP. But of course he couldn't have won finals MVP unless he was on a better team which he clearly was. Therefore, although we are still giving Wade the nod during the post season because of his finals MVP, it is still not a truly accurate player to player comparison because of the differences in talent in their respective teams.

Individually, Wade had .5 more ppg, .6 more apg, .4 less rpg .6 more ts%, and .8 less turnovers. That said, individually Wade was the better player in the post season by a very very thin margin. Also, we are not even taking into account that Kobe only played in 7 games and Wade went all the way. Therefore, the sample size we are using in the postseason is hardly equal and therefore the accuracy of this comparison is not as valid as the one we used in the regular season. Although we can gain some insight from the 2006 post season comparison, we do not get the full spectrum. So we are then forced to go mostly off of the regular season and partly by the post season due to inconclusive data. That said...Kobe was clearly the better player in 2006 as his regular season was far enough ahead of Wade's to draw a valid conclusion.


Kobe in the 09 regular season: 26.8, 4.9 apg, 5.2 rpg, ts% 56.1, Turnovers per game 2.6, First team All NBA, First team All NBA Defense, 2nd in MVP voting, led team to a 65 win season (2nd best in league)
Wade in the 09 regular season: 30.2 ppg, 7.5 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 57.4, Turnovers per game 3.4 (2nd in the league), First Team All NBA, Second Team All NBA Defense, 3rd in MVP voting, led a crappy Heat roster to 43 wins (5 seed in the east)

In 2009 Wade had 3.2 more ppg, 2.6 more apg, .2 less rpg, 1.3 more ts%, and .8 more turnovers per game. They both made first All NBA team. That said, at first glance it could be said that Wade had the better individual performance by a hair. Then you have to take into account that Kobe led the Lakers to 65 wins in a far more difficult conference. Not only that, Kobe finished higher in MVP voting and was first team all NBA defense to Wade's second team All NBA defense. Wade was better offensively, but that could be argued by bringing note to the fact that he had more of a green light because his team was not in title contention like Kobe's Lakers. A more fair comparison would be to see how they did comparatively when they were both on crappy teams. We will get to that, but head to head Its fair to give Wade a very slight advantage in the regular season in terms of statistics, but Kobe was clearly more accomplished. Either way we can give Wade the benefit of the doubt for arguments sake.

Kobe in the 09 playoffs: 30.2 ppg, 5.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 56.4, Turnovers per game 2.6, Won Finals MVP
Wade in the 09 playoffs: 29.1 ppg, 5.3 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 56.5, Turnovers per game 3.6, Lost to Atlanta in the first round in 7 games

In the 09 post season, Kobe had 1.1 more ppg, .2 more apg, .3 more rpg, .1 less ts%, and 1 less turnover per game. Kobe also went on to win a title as well as finals MVP. We have to give Kobe an edge here, but likewise as there was not enough data to compare in the 2006 playoffs, there isn't enough here as well.

With Wade only having an extremely slight edge in the regular season statistically and Kobe having the clear edge in the playoffs, I have to say that Kobe was the better player in 2009. Though we are lacking significant data in the post season to make a truly fair comparison. That said, I will now compare how they did in similar situations by comparing Kobe's 2006 regular season to Wade's 2009 regular season. I will even compare Wade's 06 regular and post seasons to Kobe's 09 regular and post seasons where they both had great teams, went on to win the title and win finals MVP.

Kobe in the 06 regular season: 35.4 ppg, 4.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 55.9, Turnovers per game 3.1, 4th in MVP voting, First Team All NBA, First Team All NBA Defense, led a crappy Lakers team to 45 wins (7 seed), Scored 81 points in a game and 62 in 3 quarters
Wade in the 09 regular season: 30.2 ppg, 7.5 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 57.4, Turnovers per game 3.4 (2nd in the league), First Team All NBA, Second Team All NBA Defense, 3rd in MVP voting, led a crappy Heat roster to 43 wins (5 seed)

Now, we are on equal playing fields as both Kobe and Wade were the respective leaders of crappy teams. Kobe averaged 5.2 more ppg though Wade did have a more efficient ts% by 1.5. The question now is that is 1.5 more ts% enough to say that Wade was more efficient offensively? If their ppg's were about even, I would say yes, but since Kobe was ahead by the significant margin of 5.2, I have to say no. The small difference of 1.5% calculates to a disparity of about half a point scored. That said you then take that half a point and subtract it from the 5.2 difference in their ppg and Kobe is still better offensively by 4.7 points.

Wade has an advantage of 3 more apg, but also has .3 less rpg and .3 more turnovers per game. An argument can be made that Wade's 3 more assists translate into 6 more points. That argument is partly true, but fails to account for the systems that they both play in and that there are other ways to set up your teammates to score other than directly assisting them. One can act as a decoy or make the pass that led to the pass of a teammate scoring. Therefore 3 more assists doesn't necessarily translate into 6 more points scored, but it should be taken into account. Even if you say that his 3 assists give him a 6 point edge over Kobe, you then have to account for the .3 more rebounds Kobe is giving you and the .3 less turnovers Kobe has. When you do Wade only has an advantage of 2.4 assists which theoretically is 4.8 points. Take that 4.8 points and subtract the 4.7 points that Kobe had the previous edge on and Wade now has the advantage of .1. That is of course if you give Wade the full credit of 6 points for those 3 more assists which doesn't really tell the whole story anyways, but just for arguments sake I will give Wade the benefit of the doubt.

Even if Wade has the .1 edge offensively (which is extremely generous) then we have to take defense into account as well. Kobe was a first team All NBA defender and Wade was a second team All NBA defender. Kobe has the edge on defense for sure and that alone should decimate the .1 advantage that I so generously threw Wade offensively. Now lets look at the team records. Kobe led his team of misfits to 45 games in the difficult western conference and Wade led his team of misfits to 42 games in the weak eastern conference. Now that gives Kobe an advantage of 3 more games won and in a more difficult conference none the less. 3 more wins in the west is like 5-6 more in the east. Therefore, Kobe was the better leader since he produced more wins.

Lets break it down:

Even if Kobe and Wade were about even offensively, Kobe still had the advantage defensively and it showed because he got more wins with an equal amount of crappy talent around him.

Now lets look at how they did in the post season with crappy teams. Both went 7 games in the first round.

Kobe in the 06 playoffs: 27.9 ppg, 5.1 apg, 6.3 rpg, ts% 58.7, Turnovers per game 4.7, Lost to Phoenix in seven games in the first round
Wade in the 09 playoffs: 29.1 ppg, 5.3 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 56.5, Turnovers per game 3.6, Lost to Atlanta in the first round in 7 games

Wade had 1.2 more ppg, .2 more apg, 1.1 less turnovers per game, but had 2.2 less ts%, and 1.3 less rpg. Without showing the math (which does slightly favor Kobe) we can agree that statistically its pretty much even. That said, since Kobe was able to lead his team to 7 games against a much better team in the Phoenix Suns (and would have won BTW if not for Stone Hands Kwame missing a key rebound in game 6), than Wade's 7 games against Atlanta, I would logically have to give the advantage to Kobe.

Now, lets look at how they both did when they won it all with great teams around them by comparing Wade's 2006 post season to Kobe's 2009 post season.

Kobe in the 09 playoffs: 30.2 ppg, 5.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 56.4, Turnovers per game 2.6, Won Finals MVP
Wade in the 06 playoffs: 28.4, 5.7 apg, 5.9 rpg, ts% 59.3, Turnovers per game 3.9, Won Finals MVP

Kobe 1.8 ppg advantage
Wade .4 apg advantage
Wade .6 rpg advantage
Wade 2.9 ts% advantage
Kobe 1.3 less turnovers

(Kobe) (1.3) less turnovers minus (Wade) (.4) apg and (.6) rpg equals (.3) advantage for Kobe

Now a 2.9 ts% equates to .9 more points give or take. I got that number by adding up their ppg (30.2) and (28.4) and dividing by 2 which gives you 29.3. Then I take that number and multiply it by the difference in their ts% (2.9) which gives you .9 which can then be subtracted from the (1.8) difference in their ppg which gives you (.9).

Therefore Kobe has an advantage of 1.2 (.9)+(.3). Which gives him a slight edge in individual performance.

Now take into account that Wade had a somewhat prime Shaq who essentially got him through the Detroit series and Kobe was the MVP of every series in 2009, you have to give the edge to Kobe again.

Finally, lets look at the 2009 regular season from Kobe and the 2006 regular season from Wade...again, they both had great teams which they eventually took to win it all.

Kobe in the 09 regular season: 26.8, 4.9 apg, 5.2 rpg, ts% 56.1, Turnovers per game 2.6, First team All NBA, First team All NBA Defense, 2nd in MVP voting, led team to a 65 win season (2nd best in league)
Wade in the 06 regular season: 27.2 ppg, 6.7 apg, 5.7 rpg, ts% 57.7, Turnovers per game 3.6 (second in the league), 6th in MVP voting, All NBA Second Team, Did not make an All NBA defensive team, Helped lead the Heat to 53 wins (5th best record)

Without going through all that math again, I will say that statistically if you want to just look at numbers, Wade had the better regular season by a hair. Then you have to take into account that Kobe lead his team to 65 wins to the 53 wins that Wade only co-lead the Heat to and in a weak eastern conference none the less. Kobe was much higher in MVP voting. Kobe made All NBA defensive first team and Wade didn't even make a defensive team. Kobe was All NBA first team and Wade was All NBA second team. Wade was also second in the league in turnovers. Now I think its pretty obvious that Kobe had the better season in 2009 than Wade had back in 2006 considering they were on an even playing field in that they both had equally great teams. I mean, Kobe did have Gasol, but Wade had a near prime Shaq who put up better numbers than Gasol did that year and yet he still couldn't win even 60 games in a much easier conference.

In addition lets not forget that Kobe went back to back three times in his career and Wade has not even done that once even though he has had great teams and has been in the position where he could have done so. Kobe has has been more consistent throughout his career in having great seasons. We could take six or seven seasons of Kobe's that we can easily say were truly great. How many of Wade's can we really say that about? Maybe two or three. For those who still want to say that Wade was the best player in the NBA in 2006 or 2009 even after reading all of this, thats fine, we are all entitled to our opinions. But can you actually justify that with logic and reasoning. I seriously doubt it. Lets stop kicking sand into Kobe's legacy and give the guy his due already. You can all hate him for who he is as a person and thats fine, just stop making outlandish claims about what he has accomplished on the basketball court. Its really getting quite old.

amos1er
09-16-2012, 03:56 AM
You sure?

He was actually second in the league in turnovers both years, but had a worse assist to turnover ratio than all the other guards either close to him or tied in turnovers per game, except for Gilbert Arenas back in 2006. His turnovers per 48 minutes was the highest in the league back in 2006 except for Steve Nash who had a much better assist to turnover ratio.

brodawgs
09-16-2012, 04:27 AM
I would hope for the sake of credibility of PSD that this list is a joke. Kobe was not better than LBJ in 09 and 10. Not even close. Skill wise, all Kobe had on LeBron was jump shot ability, every other aspect LeBron was leaps and bounds above Kobe. Statistically LeBron dominated Kobe in every aspect, period. Kobe MAY have been in the top 3 in 09 and 10, but anyone who has the capability of abstract thought understands Kobe was only the best about two years.

amos1er
09-16-2012, 05:03 AM
I would hope for the sake of credibility of PSD that this list is a joke. Kobe was not better than LBJ in 09 and 10. Not even close. Skill wise, all Kobe had on LeBron was jump shot ability, every other aspect LeBron was leaps and bounds above Kobe. Statistically LeBron dominated Kobe in every aspect, period. Kobe MAY have been in the top 3 in 09 and 10, but anyone who has the capability of abstract thought understands Kobe was only the best about two years.

So I guess going to to win the title and finals MVP is not an important criteria to you? What about clutch gene? It's still debatable whether or not Lebron even has one. In fact, he has just finally proven for the first time this year (2012) that he can in fact close out big games. Back in 2009 and 2010 the jury was still out on him.

Just keep on clinging to your these precious stats of yours (that you failed to even provide) and see how far it gets you. Andris Biedrins has a career fg% of 60...does that mean that he is more efficient than Lebron offensively?

Two years you say? So you don't think Kobe was best in 2006, 2007, and 2008?

I guess Michael Jordan doesn't have any abstract according to you because he is on record saying that Kobe was still the best back in 2009 and 2010.


In 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CANBF8fmnms
In 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pp10aHLdEc

SteBO
09-16-2012, 08:05 AM
For those of you saying that Wade should be the best in either 2006 or 2009 because its a contradiction on why Kobe is considered the best during those years...

Lets break down this argument.

First off we will use a straight up head to head comparisons from both the 2006 and 2009 regular and post seasons, then we will compare using the logic that if you give Kobe the nod for best player in the league due to a great regular season in 06 even though Wade went on to win finals MVP you have to do the same for Wade in 09 even though Kobe went on to win finals MVP. This is a complete fallacy as I will now prove:

Kobe in the 06 regular season: 35.4 ppg, 4.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 55.9, Turnovers per game 3.1, 4th in MVP voting, First Team All NBA, First Team All NBA Defense, led a crappy Lakers team to 45 wins (7 seed), Scored 81 points in a game and 62 in 3 quarters
Wade in the 06 regular season: 27.2 ppg, 6.7 apg, 5.7 rpg, ts% 57.7, Turnovers per game 3.6 (second in the league), 6th in MVP voting, All NBA Second Team, Did not make an All NBA defensive team, Helped lead the Heat to 53 wins (5th best record)

I Think its pretty safe to say that Kobe was the better player during the regular season. Wade did have 2.2 more assists, and .5 more rebounds, but Kobe had 8.2 more points. Now, Wade did have a higher ts% by 1.8, but come one now, thats basically a rounding error. They are essentially even in terms of offensive efficiency and when you consider how much more ppg Kobe put up, its clear to see that Kobe was the far better offensive player. Kobe took a lottery bound team to the playoffs and 45 wins. Wade, with a stacked team and a semi prime Shaq only was able to help the Heat to 52 wins in a weak eastern conference. Not to mention that Kobe was the clear leader of his team and Wade was co-leader along side a semi prime Shaq.

Now add in the legendary moments like the 81 in a game and the 62 in three quarters and its even more of a land slide in favor of Kobe. Then on top of that, Kobe finished higher in MVP voting, was an All NBA first team member, and an All NBA Defensive first team member. Wade was on the second All NBA team, but failed to make any All NBA Defensive team. Now, its even more of a landslide in favor of Kobe. Oh and did I mention that Wade was second in the league in turnovers.

Kobe in the 06 playoffs: 27.9 ppg, 5.1 apg, 6.3 rpg, ts% 58.7, Turnovers per game 4.7, Lost to Phoenix in seven games in the first round
Wade in the 06 playoffs: 28.4, 5.7 apg, 5.9 rpg, ts% 59.3, Turnovers per game 3.9, Won Finals MVP

We have to give Wade the nod of course because he went on to win finals MVP. But of course he couldn't have won finals MVP unless he was on a better team which he clearly was. Therefore, although we are still giving Wade the nod during the post season because of his finals MVP, it is still not a truly accurate player to player comparison because of the differences in talent in their respective teams.

Individually, Wade had .5 more ppg, .6 more apg, .4 less rpg .6 more ts%, and .8 less turnovers. That said, individually Wade was the better player in the post season by a very very thin margin. Also, we are not even taking into account that Kobe only played in 7 games and Wade went all the way. Therefore, the sample size we are using in the postseason is hardly equal and therefore the accuracy of this comparison is not as valid as the one we used in the regular season. Although we can gain some insight from the 2006 post season comparison, we do not get the full spectrum. So we are then forced to go mostly off of the regular season and partly by the post season due to inconclusive data. That said...Kobe was clearly the better player in 2006 as his regular season was far enough ahead of Wade's to draw a valid conclusion.


Kobe in the 09 regular season: 26.8, 4.9 apg, 5.2 rpg, ts% 56.1, Turnovers per game 2.6, First team All NBA, First team All NBA Defense, 2nd in MVP voting, led team to a 65 win season (2nd best in league)
Wade in the 09 regular season: 30.2 ppg, 7.5 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 57.4, Turnovers per game 3.4 (2nd in the league), First Team All NBA, Second Team All NBA Defense, 3rd in MVP voting, led a crappy Heat roster to 43 wins (5 seed in the east)

In 2009 Wade had 3.2 more ppg, 2.6 more apg, .2 less rpg, 1.3 more ts%, and .8 more turnovers per game. They both made first All NBA team. That said, at first glance it could be said that Wade had the better individual performance by a hair. Then you have to take into account that Kobe led the Lakers to 65 wins in a far more difficult conference. Not only that, Kobe finished higher in MVP voting and was first team all NBA defense to Wade's second team All NBA defense. Wade was better offensively, but that could be argued by bringing note to the fact that he had more of a green light because his team was not in title contention like Kobe's Lakers. A more fair comparison would be to see how they did comparatively when they were both on crappy teams. We will get to that, but head to head Its fair to give Wade a very slight advantage in the regular season in terms of statistics, but Kobe was clearly more accomplished. Either way we can give Wade the benefit of the doubt for arguments sake.

Kobe in the 09 playoffs: 30.2 ppg, 5.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 56.4, Turnovers per game 2.6, Won Finals MVP
Wade in the 09 playoffs: 29.1 ppg, 5.3 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 56.5, Turnovers per game 3.6, Lost to Atlanta in the first round in 7 games

In the 09 post season, Kobe had 1.1 more ppg, .2 more apg, .3 more rpg, .1 less ts%, and 1 less turnover per game. Kobe also went on to win a title as well as finals MVP. We have to give Kobe an edge here, but likewise as there was not enough data to compare in the 2006 playoffs, there isn't enough here as well.

With Wade only having an extremely slight edge in the regular season statistically and Kobe having the clear edge in the playoffs, I have to say that Kobe was the better player in 2009. Though we are lacking significant data in the post season to make a truly fair comparison. That said, I will now compare how they did in similar situations by comparing Kobe's 2006 regular season to Wade's 2009 regular season. I will even compare Wade's 06 regular and post seasons to Kobe's 09 regular and post seasons where they both had great teams, went on to win the title and win finals MVP.

Kobe in the 06 regular season: 35.4 ppg, 4.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 55.9, Turnovers per game 3.1, 4th in MVP voting, First Team All NBA, First Team All NBA Defense, led a crappy Lakers team to 45 wins (7 seed), Scored 81 points in a game and 62 in 3 quarters
Wade in the 09 regular season: 30.2 ppg, 7.5 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 57.4, Turnovers per game 3.4 (2nd in the league), First Team All NBA, Second Team All NBA Defense, 3rd in MVP voting, led a crappy Heat roster to 43 wins (5 seed)

Now, we are on equal playing fields as both Kobe and Wade were the respective leaders of crappy teams. Kobe averaged 5.2 more ppg though Wade did have a more efficient ts% by 1.5. The question now is that is 1.5 more ts% enough to say that Wade was more efficient offensively? If their ppg's were about even, I would say yes, but since Kobe was ahead by the significant margin of 5.2, I have to say no. The small difference of 1.5% calculates to a disparity of about half a point scored. That said you then take that half a point and subtract it from the 5.2 difference in their ppg and Kobe is still better offensively by 4.7 points.

Wade has an advantage of 3 more apg, but also has .3 less rpg and .3 more turnovers per game. An argument can be made that Wade's 3 more assists translate into 6 more points. That argument is partly true, but fails to account for the systems that they both play in and that there are other ways to set up your teammates to score other than directly assisting them. One can act as a decoy or make the pass that led to the pass of a teammate scoring. Therefore 3 more assists doesn't necessarily translate into 6 more points scored, but it should be taken into account. Even if you say that his 3 assists give him a 6 point edge over Kobe, you then have to account for the .3 more rebounds Kobe is giving you and the .3 less turnovers Kobe has. When you do Wade only has an advantage of 2.4 assists which theoretically is 4.8 points. Take that 4.8 points and subtract the 4.7 points that Kobe had the previous edge on and Wade now has the advantage of .1. That is of course if you give Wade the full credit of 6 points for those 3 more assists which doesn't really tell the whole story anyways, but just for arguments sake I will give Wade the benefit of the doubt.

Even if Wade has the .1 edge offensively (which is extremely generous) then we have to take defense into account as well. Kobe was a first team All NBA defender and Wade was a second team All NBA defender. Kobe has the edge on defense for sure and that alone should decimate the .1 advantage that I so generously threw Wade offensively. Now lets look at the team records. Kobe led his team of misfits to 45 games in the difficult western conference and Wade led his team of misfits to 42 games in the weak eastern conference. Now that gives Kobe an advantage of 3 more games won and in a more difficult conference none the less. 3 more wins in the west is like 5-6 more in the east. Therefore, Kobe was the better leader since he produced more wins.

Lets break it down:

Even if Kobe and Wade were about even offensively, Kobe still had the advantage defensively and it showed because he got more wins with an equal amount of crappy talent around him.

Now lets look at how they did in the post season with crappy teams. Both went 7 games in the first round.

Kobe in the 06 playoffs: 27.9 ppg, 5.1 apg, 6.3 rpg, ts% 58.7, Turnovers per game 4.7, Lost to Phoenix in seven games in the first round
Wade in the 09 playoffs: 29.1 ppg, 5.3 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 56.5, Turnovers per game 3.6, Lost to Atlanta in the first round in 7 games

Wade had 1.2 more ppg, .2 more apg, 1.1 less turnovers per game, but had 2.2 less ts%, and 1.3 less rpg. Without showing the math (which I will admit slightly favors Wade) we can agree that statistically its pretty much even. That said, since Kobe was able to lead his team to 7 games against a much better team in the Phoenix Suns (and would have won BTW if not for Stone Hands Kwame missing a key rebound in game 6), than Wade did against Atlanta, I would logically have to give the advantage to Kobe.

Now, lets look at how they both did when they won it all with great teams around them by comparing Wade's 2006 post season to Kobe's 2009 post season.

Kobe in the 09 playoffs: 30.2 ppg, 5.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 56.4, Turnovers per game 2.6, Won Finals MVP
Wade in the 06 playoffs: 28.4, 5.7 apg, 5.9 rpg, ts% 59.3, Turnovers per game 3.9, Won Finals MVP

Kobe 1.8 ppg advantage
Wade .4 apg advantage
Wade .6 rpg advantage
Wade 2.9 ts% advantage
Kobe 1.3 less turnovers

(Kobe) (1.3) less turnovers minus (Wade) (.4) apg and (.6) rpg equals (.3) advantage for Kobe

Now a 2.9 ts% equates to .9 more points give or take. I got that number by adding up their ppg (30.2) and (28.4) and dividing by 2 which gives you 29.3. Then I take that number and multiply it by the difference in their ts% (2.9) which gives you .9 which can then be subtracted from the (1.8) difference in their ppg which gives you (.9).

Therefore Kobe has an advantage of 1.2 (.9)+(.3). Which gives him a slight edge in individual performance.

Now take into account that Wade had a somewhat prime Shaq who essentially got him through the Detroit series and Kobe was the MVP of every series in 2009, you have to give the edge to Kobe again.

Finally, lets look at the 2009 regular season from Kobe and the 2006 regular season from Wade...again, they both had great teams which they eventually took to win it all.

Kobe in the 09 regular season: 26.8, 4.9 apg, 5.2 rpg, ts% 56.1, Turnovers per game 2.6, First team All NBA, First team All NBA Defense, 2nd in MVP voting, led team to a 65 win season (2nd best in league)
Wade in the 06 regular season: 27.2 ppg, 6.7 apg, 5.7 rpg, ts% 57.7, Turnovers per game 3.6 (second in the league), 6th in MVP voting, All NBA Second Team, Did not make an All NBA defensive team, Helped lead the Heat to 53 wins (5th best record)

Without going through all that math again, I will say that statistically if you want to just look at numbers, Wade had the better regular season by a hair. Then you have to take into account that Kobe lead his team to 65 wins to the 53 wins that Wade only co-lead the Heat to and in a weak eastern conference none the less. Kobe was much higher in MVP voting. Kobe made All NBA defensive first team and Wade didn't even make a defensive team. Kobe was All NBA first team and Wade was All NBA second team. Wade was also second in the league in turnovers. Now I think its pretty obvious that Kobe had the better season in 2009 than Wade had back in 2006 considering they were on an even playing field in that they both had equally great teams. I mean, Kobe did have Gasol, but Wade had a near prime Shaq who put up better numbers than Gasol did that year and yet he still couldn't win even 60 games in a much easier conference.

In addition lets not forget that Kobe went back to back three times in his career and Wade has not even done that once even though he has had great teams and has been in the position where he could have done so. Kobe has has been more consistent throughout his career in having great seasons. We could take six or seven seasons of Kobe's that we can easily say were truly great. How many of Wade's can we really say that about? Maybe two or three. For those who still want to say that Wade was the best player in the NBA in 2006 or 2009 even after reading all of this, thats fine, we are all entitled to our opinions. But can you actually justify that with logic and reasoning. I seriously doubt it. Lets stop kicking sand into Kobe's legacy and give the guy his due already. You can all hate him for who he is as a person and thats fine, just stop making outlandish claims about what he has accomplished on the basketball court. Its really getting quite old.
I can respect just about everything you've said here, but my issue was with how the criteria changes with Laker fans. In regards to 2009 I will willingly give Kobe the edge over Wade slightly because of everything you said, but not over LeBron because of your argument for Kobe over Wade in 2006. You justified Kobe over Wade simply because of the regular season stats and how he performed in Round 1. But during that same playoff run, Wade had just about the same stats, and won the whole thing, which is the argument fans used against LeBron in 09, when he had much less help than Kobe. So my question to you is, why the change? Because LBJ actually was sniffing the Finals in 2009 with a mediocre cast, as opposed to 06 Kobe who was bounced out the first round, admittedly with a poor cast.

b@llhog24
09-16-2012, 10:03 AM
For those of you saying that Wade should be the best in either 2006 or 2009 because its a contradiction on why Kobe is considered the best during those years...

Lets break down this argument.

First off we will use a straight up head to head comparisons from both the 2006 and 2009 regular and post seasons, then we will compare using the logic that if you give Kobe the nod for best player in the league due to a great regular season in 06 even though Wade went on to win finals MVP you have to do the same for Wade in 09 even though Kobe went on to win finals MVP. This is a complete fallacy as I will now prove:

Kobe in the 06 regular season: 35.4 ppg, 4.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 55.9, Turnovers per game 3.1, 4th in MVP voting, First Team All NBA, First Team All NBA Defense, led a crappy Lakers team to 45 wins (7 seed), Scored 81 points in a game and 62 in 3 quarters
Wade in the 06 regular season: 27.2 ppg, 6.7 apg, 5.7 rpg, ts% 57.7, Turnovers per game 3.6 (second in the league), 6th in MVP voting, All NBA Second Team, Did not make an All NBA defensive team, Helped lead the Heat to 53 wins (5th best record)

I Think its pretty safe to say that Kobe was the better player during the regular season. Wade did have 2.2 more assists, and .5 more rebounds, but Kobe had 8.2 more points. Now, Wade did have a higher ts% by 1.8, but come one now, thats basically a rounding error. They are essentially even in terms of offensive efficiency and when you consider how much more ppg Kobe put up, its clear to see that Kobe was the far better offensive player. Kobe took a lottery bound team to the playoffs and 45 wins. Wade, with a stacked team and a semi prime Shaq only was able to help the Heat to 52 wins in a weak eastern conference. Not to mention that Kobe was the clear leader of his team and Wade was co-leader along side a semi prime Shaq.

Now add in the legendary moments like the 81 in a game and the 62 in three quarters and its even more of a land slide in favor of Kobe. Then on top of that, Kobe finished higher in MVP voting, was an All NBA first team member, and an All NBA Defensive first team member. Wade was on the second All NBA team, but failed to make any All NBA Defensive team. Now, its even more of a landslide in favor of Kobe. Oh and did I mention that Wade was second in the league in turnovers.

Kobe in the 06 playoffs: 27.9 ppg, 5.1 apg, 6.3 rpg, ts% 58.7, Turnovers per game 4.7, Lost to Phoenix in seven games in the first round
Wade in the 06 playoffs: 28.4, 5.7 apg, 5.9 rpg, ts% 59.3, Turnovers per game 3.9, Won Finals MVP

We have to give Wade the nod of course because he went on to win finals MVP. But of course he couldn't have won finals MVP unless he was on a better team which he clearly was. Therefore, although we are still giving Wade the nod during the post season because of his finals MVP, it is still not a truly accurate player to player comparison because of the differences in talent in their respective teams.

Individually, Wade had .5 more ppg, .6 more apg, .4 less rpg .6 more ts%, and .8 less turnovers. That said, individually Wade was the better player in the post season by a very very thin margin. Also, we are not even taking into account that Kobe only played in 7 games and Wade went all the way. Therefore, the sample size we are using in the postseason is hardly equal and therefore the accuracy of this comparison is not as valid as the one we used in the regular season. Although we can gain some insight from the 2006 post season comparison, we do not get the full spectrum. So we are then forced to go mostly off of the regular season and partly by the post season due to inconclusive data. That said...Kobe was clearly the better player in 2006 as his regular season was far enough ahead of Wade's to draw a valid conclusion.


Kobe in the 09 regular season: 26.8, 4.9 apg, 5.2 rpg, ts% 56.1, Turnovers per game 2.6, First team All NBA, First team All NBA Defense, 2nd in MVP voting, led team to a 65 win season (2nd best in league)
Wade in the 09 regular season: 30.2 ppg, 7.5 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 57.4, Turnovers per game 3.4 (2nd in the league), First Team All NBA, Second Team All NBA Defense, 3rd in MVP voting, led a crappy Heat roster to 43 wins (5 seed in the east)

In 2009 Wade had 3.2 more ppg, 2.6 more apg, .2 less rpg, 1.3 more ts%, and .8 more turnovers per game. They both made first All NBA team. That said, at first glance it could be said that Wade had the better individual performance by a hair. Then you have to take into account that Kobe led the Lakers to 65 wins in a far more difficult conference. Not only that, Kobe finished higher in MVP voting and was first team all NBA defense to Wade's second team All NBA defense. Wade was better offensively, but that could be argued by bringing note to the fact that he had more of a green light because his team was not in title contention like Kobe's Lakers. A more fair comparison would be to see how they did comparatively when they were both on crappy teams. We will get to that, but head to head Its fair to give Wade a very slight advantage in the regular season in terms of statistics, but Kobe was clearly more accomplished. Either way we can give Wade the benefit of the doubt for arguments sake.

Kobe in the 09 playoffs: 30.2 ppg, 5.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 56.4, Turnovers per game 2.6, Won Finals MVP
Wade in the 09 playoffs: 29.1 ppg, 5.3 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 56.5, Turnovers per game 3.6, Lost to Atlanta in the first round in 7 games

In the 09 post season, Kobe had 1.1 more ppg, .2 more apg, .3 more rpg, .1 less ts%, and 1 less turnover per game. Kobe also went on to win a title as well as finals MVP. We have to give Kobe an edge here, but likewise as there was not enough data to compare in the 2006 playoffs, there isn't enough here as well.

With Wade only having an extremely slight edge in the regular season statistically and Kobe having the clear edge in the playoffs, I have to say that Kobe was the better player in 2009. Though we are lacking significant data in the post season to make a truly fair comparison. That said, I will now compare how they did in similar situations by comparing Kobe's 2006 regular season to Wade's 2009 regular season. I will even compare Wade's 06 regular and post seasons to Kobe's 09 regular and post seasons where they both had great teams, went on to win the title and win finals MVP.

Kobe in the 06 regular season: 35.4 ppg, 4.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 55.9, Turnovers per game 3.1, 4th in MVP voting, First Team All NBA, First Team All NBA Defense, led a crappy Lakers team to 45 wins (7 seed), Scored 81 points in a game and 62 in 3 quarters
Wade in the 09 regular season: 30.2 ppg, 7.5 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 57.4, Turnovers per game 3.4 (2nd in the league), First Team All NBA, Second Team All NBA Defense, 3rd in MVP voting, led a crappy Heat roster to 43 wins (5 seed)

Now, we are on equal playing fields as both Kobe and Wade were the respective leaders of crappy teams. Kobe averaged 5.2 more ppg though Wade did have a more efficient ts% by 1.5. The question now is that is 1.5 more ts% enough to say that Wade was more efficient offensively? If their ppg's were about even, I would say yes, but since Kobe was ahead by the significant margin of 5.2, I have to say no. The small difference of 1.5% calculates to a disparity of about half a point scored. That said you then take that half a point and subtract it from the 5.2 difference in their ppg and Kobe is still better offensively by 4.7 points.

Wade has an advantage of 3 more apg, but also has .3 less rpg and .3 more turnovers per game. An argument can be made that Wade's 3 more assists translate into 6 more points. That argument is partly true, but fails to account for the systems that they both play in and that there are other ways to set up your teammates to score other than directly assisting them. One can act as a decoy or make the pass that led to the pass of a teammate scoring. Therefore 3 more assists doesn't necessarily translate into 6 more points scored, but it should be taken into account. Even if you say that his 3 assists give him a 6 point edge over Kobe, you then have to account for the .3 more rebounds Kobe is giving you and the .3 less turnovers Kobe has. When you do Wade only has an advantage of 2.4 assists which theoretically is 4.8 points. Take that 4.8 points and subtract the 4.7 points that Kobe had the previous edge on and Wade now has the advantage of .1. That is of course if you give Wade the full credit of 6 points for those 3 more assists which doesn't really tell the whole story anyways, but just for arguments sake I will give Wade the benefit of the doubt.

Even if Wade has the .1 edge offensively (which is extremely generous) then we have to take defense into account as well. Kobe was a first team All NBA defender and Wade was a second team All NBA defender. Kobe has the edge on defense for sure and that alone should decimate the .1 advantage that I so generously threw Wade offensively. Now lets look at the team records. Kobe led his team of misfits to 45 games in the difficult western conference and Wade led his team of misfits to 42 games in the weak eastern conference. Now that gives Kobe an advantage of 3 more games won and in a more difficult conference none the less. 3 more wins in the west is like 5-6 more in the east. Therefore, Kobe was the better leader since he produced more wins.

Lets break it down:

Even if Kobe and Wade were about even offensively, Kobe still had the advantage defensively and it showed because he got more wins with an equal amount of crappy talent around him.

Now lets look at how they did in the post season with crappy teams. Both went 7 games in the first round.

Kobe in the 06 playoffs: 27.9 ppg, 5.1 apg, 6.3 rpg, ts% 58.7, Turnovers per game 4.7, Lost to Phoenix in seven games in the first round
Wade in the 09 playoffs: 29.1 ppg, 5.3 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 56.5, Turnovers per game 3.6, Lost to Atlanta in the first round in 7 games

Wade had 1.2 more ppg, .2 more apg, 1.1 less turnovers per game, but had 2.2 less ts%, and 1.3 less rpg. Without showing the math (which does slightly favor Kobe) we can agree that statistically its pretty much even. That said, since Kobe was able to lead his team to 7 games against a much better team in the Phoenix Suns (and would have won BTW if not for Stone Hands Kwame missing a key rebound in game 6), than Wade's 7 games against Atlanta, I would logically have to give the advantage to Kobe.

Now, lets look at how they both did when they won it all with great teams around them by comparing Wade's 2006 post season to Kobe's 2009 post season.

Kobe in the 09 playoffs: 30.2 ppg, 5.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 56.4, Turnovers per game 2.6, Won Finals MVP
Wade in the 06 playoffs: 28.4, 5.7 apg, 5.9 rpg, ts% 59.3, Turnovers per game 3.9, Won Finals MVP

Kobe 1.8 ppg advantage
Wade .4 apg advantage
Wade .6 rpg advantage
Wade 2.9 ts% advantage
Kobe 1.3 less turnovers

(Kobe) (1.3) less turnovers minus (Wade) (.4) apg and (.6) rpg equals (.3) advantage for Kobe

Now a 2.9 ts% equates to .9 more points give or take. I got that number by adding up their ppg (30.2) and (28.4) and dividing by 2 which gives you 29.3. Then I take that number and multiply it by the difference in their ts% (2.9) which gives you .9 which can then be subtracted from the (1.8) difference in their ppg which gives you (.9).

Therefore Kobe has an advantage of 1.2 (.9)+(.3). Which gives him a slight edge in individual performance.

Now take into account that Wade had a somewhat prime Shaq who essentially got him through the Detroit series and Kobe was the MVP of every series in 2009, you have to give the edge to Kobe again.

Finally, lets look at the 2009 regular season from Kobe and the 2006 regular season from Wade...again, they both had great teams which they eventually took to win it all.

Kobe in the 09 regular season: 26.8, 4.9 apg, 5.2 rpg, ts% 56.1, Turnovers per game 2.6, First team All NBA, First team All NBA Defense, 2nd in MVP voting, led team to a 65 win season (2nd best in league)
Wade in the 06 regular season: 27.2 ppg, 6.7 apg, 5.7 rpg, ts% 57.7, Turnovers per game 3.6 (second in the league), 6th in MVP voting, All NBA Second Team, Did not make an All NBA defensive team, Helped lead the Heat to 53 wins (5th best record)

Without going through all that math again, I will say that statistically if you want to just look at numbers, Wade had the better regular season by a hair. Then you have to take into account that Kobe lead his team to 65 wins to the 53 wins that Wade only co-lead the Heat to and in a weak eastern conference none the less. Kobe was much higher in MVP voting. Kobe made All NBA defensive first team and Wade didn't even make a defensive team. Kobe was All NBA first team and Wade was All NBA second team. Wade was also second in the league in turnovers. Now I think its pretty obvious that Kobe had the better season in 2009 than Wade had back in 2006 considering they were on an even playing field in that they both had equally great teams. I mean, Kobe did have Gasol, but Wade had a near prime Shaq who put up better numbers than Gasol did that year and yet he still couldn't win even 60 games in a much easier conference.

In addition lets not forget that Kobe went back to back three times in his career and Wade has not even done that once even though he has had great teams and has been in the position where he could have done so. Kobe has has been more consistent throughout his career in having great seasons. We could take six or seven seasons of Kobe's that we can easily say were truly great. How many of Wade's can we really say that about? Maybe two or three. For those who still want to say that Wade was the best player in the NBA in 2006 or 2009 even after reading all of this, thats fine, we are all entitled to our opinions. But can you actually justify that with logic and reasoning. I seriously doubt it. Lets stop kicking sand into Kobe's legacy and give the guy his due already. You can all hate him for who he is as a person and thats fine, just stop making outlandish claims about what he has accomplished on the basketball court. Its really getting quite old.

You basically just rehashed the same statement with more writing. Also your statistical analysis sucks.

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-16-2012, 10:20 AM
i always wondered why people use the word analysis and end up putting their biased opinions?

it just doesnt make sense..

"2010: K. Bryant
2. L. James
3. D.Wade
4. D.Howard
I gave Kobe the edge because he still possessed the leadership and ability to lead his team to the championship. And he proved it by winning his 5th championship. For the 2nd straight year, I felt this year LeBron had the best argument against Kobe as the best player in the NBA. It's actually very applaud worthy to lead a team like that to over 60 wins. In the playoffs, they once again didn't get too far considering being the favorites for 2nd time in a row, nonetheless, besides for 1-2 games, LeBron James himself played well. After Kobe & LeBron it was between Wade and Howard. Wade had regressed a bit from last year's phenomenal season while It was even closer between Howard and Wade. Wade though not as effective as last year, was still a superstar and able to dominate games. I felt Howard still lacked the superstar takeover ability, averaging less than 20ppg. But he was still very close due to his rebounding and defensive presence. "

you gave kobe the edge, yet lebron was absolutely dominating the scene..
dude.. why did lebron get voted mvp? its for a reason.

and why do people overrate kobe's leadership? did he ever lead a team with no all star big man in their prime to the finals? nope...
lebron did, and with a pretty crappy squad.. and people say his leadership is bad? interesting.

sorry to burst everyone's bubble.. but lebron has been the best from 2009-2010 season and has been now as well..
and some would say in 08-09 was him as well. and i agree cos he LED his team full of scrubs to 66 wins. him alone.

so to me, and mostly every logical fan, lebron has been the best for almost 5 years.

Chronz
09-16-2012, 02:20 PM
I Think its pretty safe to say that Kobe was the better player during the regular season.
Yes


Wade, with a stacked team and a semi prime Shaq only was able to help the Heat to 52 wins in a weak eastern conference.
Injuries made that team not so stacked.



Kobe in the 06 playoffs: 27.9 ppg, 5.1 apg, 6.3 rpg, ts% 58.7, Turnovers per game 4.7, Lost to Phoenix in seven games in the first round
Wade in the 06 playoffs: 28.4, 5.7 apg, 5.9 rpg, ts% 59.3, Turnovers per game 3.9, Won Finals MVP
What about pace and offensive efficiency in general?

Cuz those turnovers really killed Kobes efficiency. Its why his advanced stats look so pedestrian, it was his greatest regular season statistically and oddly enough one of the worst of his prime. Phil reigned Kobe in for this series but the more you do that, the more his game suffers IMO. Wade can be a playmaker and scorer at the same time.


We have to give Wade the nod of course because he went on to win finals MVP. But of course he couldn't have won finals MVP unless he was on a better team which he clearly was. Therefore, although we are still giving Wade the nod during the post season because of his finals MVP, it is still not a truly accurate player to player comparison because of the differences in talent in their respective teams.
But the difference in talent could be what prevents Wade from blowing up statistically, because as he would later show when he didnt have the team, that he would outdo Kobes rate of production. Theres also the fact that Wade was far more productive in the playoffs despite having more talent than Kobe, dont know where you stand on that one but it seems like a no brainer here.



Individually, Wade had .5 more ppg, .6 more apg, .4 less rpg .6 more ts%, and .8 less turnovers. That said, individually Wade was the better player in the post season by a very very thin margin.
False, it was a blow out, Kobe was less efficient despite taking on less of the offense himself. Kobe's usage dropped to 28.9 vs Wade's 31.7. Despite this advantage Wade sustained his per possession efficiency and Kobe saw his decline significantly.



Also, we are not even taking into account that Kobe only played in 7 games and Wade went all the way. Therefore, the sample size we are using in the postseason is hardly equal and therefore the accuracy of this comparison is not as valid as the one we used in the regular season. Although we can gain some insight from the 2006 post season comparison, we do not get the full spectrum. So we are then forced to go mostly off of the regular season and partly by the post season due to inconclusive data. That said...Kobe was clearly the better player in 2006 as his regular season was far enough ahead of Wade's to draw a valid conclusion.
Kobe had the better regular season and if thats the criteria then he cannot be the best in later years because the difference in the 2 in those regular seasons are more significant. But the playoff difference here is far greater than any other in their matchups.



In 2009 Wade had 3.2 more ppg, 2.6 more apg, .2 less rpg, 1.3 more ts%, and .8 more turnovers per game. They both made first All NBA team. That said, at first glance it could be said that Wade had the better individual performance by a hair. Then you have to take into account that Kobe led the Lakers to 65 wins in a far more difficult conference. Not only that, Kobe finished higher in MVP voting and was first team all NBA defense to Wade's second team All NBA defense. Wade was better offensively, but that could be argued by bringing note to the fact that he had more of a green light because his team was not in title contention like Kobe's Lakers. A more fair comparison would be to see how they did comparatively when they were both on crappy teams. We will get to that, but head to head Its fair to give Wade a very slight advantage in the regular season in terms of statistics, but Kobe was clearly more accomplished. Either way we can give Wade the benefit of the doubt for arguments sake.
Yup, it works both ways. I like your idea of comparing them both in similar environments because there is no doubt that this year belongs to Wade if we are focusing on the individual.



Kobe in the 09 playoffs: 30.2 ppg, 5.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, ts% 56.4, Turnovers per game 2.6, Won Finals MVP
Wade in the 09 playoffs: 29.1 ppg, 5.3 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 56.5, Turnovers per game 3.6, Lost to Atlanta in the first round in 7 games
Very close


With Wade only having an extremely slight edge in the regular season statistically and Kobe having the clear edge in the playoffs, I have to say that Kobe was the better player in 2009.
But thats not true, Wade blows Kobe out in the regular season, to a far greater degree than Kobe did Wade in 06.




Now, we are on equal playing fields as both Kobe and Wade were the respective leaders of crappy teams. Kobe averaged 5.2 more ppg though Wade did have a more efficient ts% by 1.5. The question now is that is 1.5 more ts% enough to say that Wade was more efficient offensively?
If their ppg's were about even, I would say yes, but since Kobe was ahead by the significant margin of 5.2, I have to say no. The small difference of 1.5% calculates to a disparity of about half a point scored. That said you then take that half a point and subtract it from the 5.2 difference in their ppg and Kobe is still better offensively by 4.7 points.
TS% is a measure of scoring efficiency, overall offensive efficiency is measured by, Pts scored for possessions used. The main difference are that you account for turnovers and offensive rebounds. Generally turnovers are considered more costly than FGA and FTA are weighted by .44, but Im not going to follow the VOP model right now because the .44 multiplier actually helps guys like Wade/Kobe who take the majority of their teams technical foul shots. And Im ignoring the added cost of turnovers because I just want to get a raw number of possessions used/converted, but Ill expand on the turnovers in a second.


Kobe:
Total Possessions used: 34.5
Total PTS scored 35.4
PPP : 1.02

Normally you would account for assists next but I get the feeling your trying to focus solely on the pts scored individually right now, so instead the next step is to remove Passing Turnovers from the equation.


Kobe had 66 passing turnovers in 06. It was a far cry from the 144 Kobe made in less time in 05, that was the year they planted Kobe at the top of the key and had him be a combo creator/scorer, which as I have said before, is not him at his best.


So detracting those turnovers and Kobe has a PPP of 1.05, thats Wade's mark without even accounting for those passing turnovers, of which he made 133.

Taking those out you get;
Wade: 1.11 PPP


So yes it comes down to either usage or efficiency, however that is just focusing on their individual scoring. When you factor in how much more of Wade's passes lead directly to assists, then Wade generates more offense overall, at a slower pace on higher efficiency.




Wade has an advantage of 3 more apg, but also has .3 less rpg and .3 more turnovers per game. An argument can be made that Wade's 3 more assists translate into 6 more points. That argument is partly true, but fails to account for the systems that they both play in and that there are other ways to set up your teammates to score other than directly assisting them.
A tired cliche that Kobe himself has proven fallible. The facts are Kobe CANT play that role as well as Wade, just as Wade cant operate from a triple threat stance as well as Kobe. Both have advantages and disadvantages in terms of production. Limiting Kobe's playmaking burden, limit his turnovers. Wade on the other hand accrues turnovers by focusing on the 2 most turnover prone plays, passing and driving. The payoff is that he creates open looks and gets high% shots at the rime/ft line.

When you ask Kobe to become a dynamic playmaker he becomes far more turnover prone than when he is focusing on scoring and making simple passes. Its why his PnR (Passing+Scoring) efficiency lacks when compared to Wade/Rose/Bron types.



One can act as a decoy or make the pass that led to the pass of a teammate scoring. Therefore 3 more assists doesn't necessarily translate into 6 more points scored, but it should be taken into account.
Yea but that applies for both, Wade saw plenty of hockey assists so we're back at step 1.




Even if you say that his 3 assists give him a 6 point edge over Kobe, you then have to account for the .3 more rebounds Kobe is giving you and the .3 less turnovers Kobe has.
How exactly are you doing this? We have several statistical models that do exactly what your trying to, some that value efficiency others that value usage, with the added benefit of accounting for league averages. To my knowledge they all rate Wade's season superior. But you want us to take your opinion of what these stats mean over actual statisticians? Are we allowed to ask why?



When you do Wade only has an advantage of 2.4 assists
So on your scale, the value of a possession is equal regardless of the stat? WTF kind of science is this? The value of an offensive rebound vs defensive rebound is not the same. This sounds like its coming straight from the chocobar stat.



we have to take defense into account as well. Kobe was a first team All NBA defender and Wade was a second team All NBA defender.
Do you have something more substantial to offer as proof?



Kobe has the edge on defense for sure and that alone should decimate the .1 advantage that I so generously threw Wade offensively.
What you call generous, I call poorly conceived and the exact opposite approach of actual statisticians.


Now lets look at the team records. Kobe led his team of misfits to 45 games in the difficult western conference and Wade led his team of misfits to 42 games in the weak eastern conference. Now that gives Kobe an advantage of 3 more games won and in a more difficult conference none the less. 3 more wins in the west is like 5-6 more in the east. Therefore, Kobe was the better leader since he produced more wins.
Labeling them both misfits is unfair to Wade. Odom would have been a dream come true for the Heat and so would have Phil Jackson. Clearly Kobe had more help in leading his team.



Lets break it down:

Even if Kobe and Wade were about even offensively, Kobe still had the advantage defensively and it showed because he got more wins with an equal amount of crappy talent around him.
Can you provide evidence for any of this?


Now lets look at how they did in the post season with crappy teams. Both went 7 games in the first round.

Kobe in the 06 playoffs: 27.9 ppg, 5.1 apg, 6.3 rpg, ts% 58.7, Turnovers per game 4.7, Lost to Phoenix in seven games in the first round
Wade in the 09 playoffs: 29.1 ppg, 5.3 apg, 5.0 rpg, ts% 56.5, Turnovers per game 3.6, Lost to Atlanta in the first round in 7 games

Wade had 1.2 more ppg, .2 more apg, 1.1 less turnovers per game, but had 2.2 less ts%, and 1.3 less rpg. Without showing the math (which does slightly favor Kobe) we can agree that statistically its pretty much even. That said, since Kobe was able to lead his team to 7 games against a much better team in the Phoenix Suns (and would have won BTW if not for Stone Hands Kwame missing a key rebound in game 6), than Wade's 7 games against Atlanta, I would logically have to give the advantage to Kobe.
Wait so Wade has a usage of 37.2 with an Offensive RTG of 112, but the math favors Kobe who sports a lower usage of 28.9 and a 108 rating (against an inferior defense no less)? Can you explain that one again? Even Elton Brand had a better series vs the Suns than Kobe did.


Now, lets look at how they both did when they won it all with great teams around them by comparing Wade's 2006 post season to Kobe's 2009 post season.
I dont think I can stomach much more of this, I will admit the post seasons are very comparable, but the regular season production isnt.


Now take into account that Wade had a somewhat prime Shaq who essentially got him through the Detroit series and Kobe was the MVP of every series in 2009, you have to give the edge to Kobe again.
Yea but you know how you point out key moments for Kobe's regular season explosions (81,62) well people tend to do the same for other players, Wade and Kobe were relatively equal in the playoffs, Wade was far better in the Finals.



Without going through all that math again, I will say that statistically if you want to just look at numbers, Wade had the better regular season by a hair.
Not according to any NBA oriented statistician but ok lets pretend you know more about the value of a possession than they do.


Then you have to take into account that Kobe lead his team to 65 wins to the 53 wins that Wade only co-lead the Heat to and in a weak eastern conference none the less.
This co-led thing is laughable when you consider this wasnt MVP Shaq and that he missed half the year pacing himself for the playoffs.


Now I think its pretty obvious that Kobe had the better season in 2009 than Wade had back in 2006 considering they were on an even playing field in that they both had equally great teams. I mean, Kobe did have Gasol, but Wade had a near prime Shaq who put up better numbers than Gasol did that year and yet he still couldn't win even 60 games in a much easier conference.
Even if we pretend you had a point about Shaq putting up better numbers, the facts are he only played 59 games and the team was like .500 without him.



In addition lets not forgEt that Kobe went back to back three times in his career and Wade has not even done that once even though he has had great teams and has been in the position where he could have done so.
Why would that matter? Nobody doubts that Kobe is better than an injured Wade or that he has had a better all around career thus far. This is about individual seasons.


Kobe has has been more consistent throughout his career in having great seasons.
Thats why its hard to believe he was better in any given year when hes know for consistency and not his peak. In order to have the better season you generally need to stand out, unless your like Bron and your enjoying consistently dominant seasons.


But can you actually justify that with logic and reasoning.
Absolutely, the stats and the chips confirm it. You just dont see it because you make endless excuses for Kobe's lack of efficiency, assists and distort the stats in a way that all statisticians would laugh at. The proof is in how you weight the boxscore and ignore the value of possessions.


Lets stop kicking sand into Kobe's legacy and give the guy his due already. You can all hate him for who he is as a person and thats fine, just stop making outlandish claims about what he has accomplished on the basketball court. Its really getting quite old.
To me an outlandish claim is something that isnt even in the realm of possibility. By accusing Wade supporters as being outlandish and kicking sand in Kobes legacy, your only exposing yourself as an extreme homer, even worse, one who is so infatuated with this lust, that he completely undermines the workings of those with superior intellects who have researched the values of a possession. They admit we dont have a clear grasp on the value of usage vs efficiency but they have made barometers to favor each of those.

Forgive me if I dont consider that hate, rather than a disagreement on what we've seen and respect for more credible stats than your interpretation of them.

Chronz
09-16-2012, 02:39 PM
He was actually second in the league in turnovers both years, but had a worse assist to turnover ratio than all the other guards either close to him or tied in turnovers per game, except for Gilbert Arenas back in 2006. His turnovers per 48 minutes was the highest in the league back in 2006 except for Steve Nash who had a much better assist to turnover ratio.
High playmaking burden along with a slashers mindset are to thank for that. More than worth it when you consider his production.


Also, I like to use passing turnovers to assist ratio whenever applicable. Like JJ had a higher assist:turnover ratio but Wade had a superior passing turnover to assist ratio. Hes just more turnover prone because of the amount of drives to the rim, which when you see the results of, (Pts-Ast-Efficiency) are more than worth it. Scoring and passing effectively is a trait few players can combine as well as Wade has.

Chronz
09-16-2012, 02:41 PM
i always wondered why people use the word analysis and end up putting their biased opinions?

it just doesnt make sense..

"2010: K. Bryant
2. L. James
3. D.Wade
4. D.Howard
I gave Kobe the edge because he still possessed the leadership and ability to lead his team to the championship. And he proved it by winning his 5th championship. For the 2nd straight year, I felt this year LeBron had the best argument against Kobe as the best player in the NBA. It's actually very applaud worthy to lead a team like that to over 60 wins. In the playoffs, they once again didn't get too far considering being the favorites for 2nd time in a row, nonetheless, besides for 1-2 games, LeBron James himself played well. After Kobe & LeBron it was between Wade and Howard. Wade had regressed a bit from last year's phenomenal season while It was even closer between Howard and Wade. Wade though not as effective as last year, was still a superstar and able to dominate games. I felt Howard still lacked the superstar takeover ability, averaging less than 20ppg. But he was still very close due to his rebounding and defensive presence. "

you gave kobe the edge, yet lebron was absolutely dominating the scene..
dude.. why did lebron get voted mvp? its for a reason.

and why do people overrate kobe's leadership? did he ever lead a team with no all star big man in their prime to the finals? nope...
lebron did, and with a pretty crappy squad.. and people say his leadership is bad? interesting.

sorry to burst everyone's bubble.. but lebron has been the best from 2009-2010 season and has been now as well..
and some would say in 08-09 was him as well. and i agree cos he LED his team full of scrubs to 66 wins. him alone.

so to me, and mostly every logical fan, lebron has been the best for almost 5 years.

Whats funny to me is how winning the championship separates you from your peers but advancing further in the playoffs than your competition gets ignored.

Like winning only counts if you win it all, otherwise its back to our usual assessments. Not saying its wrong, just odd.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-16-2012, 02:45 PM
This is how I would say it for Kobe.

2002-2003, he and Tim Duncan were 1A and 1B. Duncan obviously finals MVP and league MVP, but Kobe individually was the best offensive and defensive player in the game, a killer on the court. (Kobe that season with Shaq on the team averaged 30 PPG, just under 7 boards a game, just under 6 dimes a game, career-high 2.2 SPG, just under 1 BPG, shot career high 38.3% 3 pt range, I mean that was the year where he scored 55 against MJ and the Wiz where in the first half of that game he made 8-10 from 3 pt, and NBA record 12 3 peers in a game against the Seattle Sonics, and also that yr 9 straight games of 40+ with Shaq designated as the focal point of the offense).


2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2007-2008, Kobe still playing elite defense, top 3 perimeter defender in the game behind guys like Artest and Bowen, but was flat out the greatest scorer the association has ever seen and was the bet closer no question.


2008-2009 and 2009-2010, LeBron overtook Kobe for best player in the league, but Kobe was still more effective defensively than LeBron both those years and Kobe was by far the best closer in the game.


So really, Kobe has 4 yrs where he could rightfully so be labeled the best player in the league.

2002-2003 (debatable b/w him and TD)

2005-2006, 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 (Hands down, no question best player in the game!)

bucketss
09-16-2012, 03:00 PM
So I guess going to to win the title and finals MVP is not an important criteria to you? What about clutch gene? It's still debatable whether or not Lebron even has one. In fact, he has just finally proven for the first time this year (2012) that he can in fact close out big games. Back in 2009 and 2010 the jury was still out on him.

Just keep on clinging to your these precious stats of yours (that you failed to even provide) and see how far it gets you. Andris Biedrins has a career fg% of 60...does that mean that he is more efficient than Lebron offensively?

Two years you say? So you don't think Kobe was best in 2006, 2007, and 2008?

I guess Michael Jordan doesn't have any abstract according to you because he is on record saying that Kobe was still the best back in 2009 and 2010.


In 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CANBF8fmnms
In 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pp10aHLdEc

there's no such thing as clutch gene i see skip troll-less is still brain washing you.

btw i don't agree with the guy you quoted just in case you think i am.

Chronz
09-16-2012, 03:06 PM
This is how I would say it for Kobe.

2002-2003, he and Tim Duncan were 1A and 1B. Duncan obviously finals MVP and league MVP, but Kobe individually was the best offensive and defensive player in the game, a killer on the court.
LOL the leagues MVP, the guy who won a championship with a subpar cast and anchors one of the best defenses isnt even the no brainer choice? Your such a homer. How can Kobe be the better individual defender when hes not anchoring an elite defense ? Hes not a bigman so hes obviously not going to be the difference maker. In fact without Shaq the Lakers werent any good so if anyone has a case its him.

Kobe isnt even the clear cut best perimeter player in 2003 with Tmac having a historic season.

C-Style
09-16-2012, 03:09 PM
Kobe has absolutely no case as the best player or better then Lebron in 2011. Absolutely none. And another reason he's arguably better then Lebron in 2010 was cause of the egg Lebron dropped in that Celtics series.

lamzoka
09-16-2012, 03:33 PM
I don't think Dwade was ever on top of LeBron if thonged he won a ring in '06

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-16-2012, 03:42 PM
LOL the leagues MVP, the guy who won a championship with a subpar cast and anchors one of the best defenses isnt even the no brainer choice? Your such a homer. How can Kobe be the better individual defender when hes not anchoring an elite defense ? Hes not a bigman so hes obviously not going to be the difference maker. In fact without Shaq the Lakers werent any good so if anyone has a case its him.

Kobe isnt even the clear cut best perimeter player in 2003 with Tmac having a historic season.

I'll give you that TD was the best player in the league in 2003. I have absolutely zero problem with that.


HOWEVER....


How did Duncan have a subpar supporting cast in 2003?

He had one of the rising best defensive perimeter defenders in the game in Bruce Bowen.


Remember how Kobe used to kill the Spurs in the 3 pt Lakers era? Well Bowen came to the Spurs in 01-02 (that 3rd 3 peat era) and was in his first season with the Spurs, but was injured and not fully 100% most of that season playing in only 59 regular season games.


He got healthy in 02-03 and was a beast defensively, and that's when Kobe started having trouble with San Antonio as Bowen would make him into a low percentage shooter.


Factor that with Tony Parker, who the Lakers had no answer at all for in the 2003 Semis. He would get to the rim at will and Shaq's fat lazy out of shape butt couldn't and refused to guard the pick and roll and all the Lakers could do to stop the 2nd yr guy Tony Parker was to knock him flat on his *** every time he got to the rim (that's what Samaki Walker and Robert Horry were called upon for, and at times, if he wasn't into foul trouble going against the twin towers, Shaq).


That was also Ginobili's 2nd season and David Robinson's last season. Yes, he was old as hell, but the length of both Duncan and RObinson gave Shaq some trouble for sure.



Another component you forgot, Stephen Jackson. He was so good in 02-03, that the Spurs couldn't retain him because he got more money that summer of 2003 with the Hawks.


Don't give me that garbage that Duncan didn't have a good supporting cast. They were an awesome defensive team not just in the interior with him and DRob, but also on the perimeter with Bowen and SJax. And guys that season had problems defending the 2nd yr guy TP, and Manu was crafty as hell, and wasn't the protyptical 2nd yr player as he had played several years of professional basketball in Argentina.

theheatles
09-16-2012, 03:55 PM
I would hope for the sake of credibility of PSD that this list is a joke. Kobe was not better than LBJ in 09 and 10. Not even close. Skill wise, all Kobe had on LeBron was jump shot ability, every other aspect LeBron was leaps and bounds above Kobe. Statistically LeBron dominated Kobe in every aspect, period. Kobe MAY have been in the top 3 in 09 and 10, but anyone who has the capability of abstract thought understands Kobe was only the best about two years.

.

3RDASYSTEM
09-16-2012, 04:49 PM
KB-PAU-DH Its so amusing that KB has all these 'haters'

he said he was a 'sidekick' himself to PHIL JAX ..according to his book, he said he was 'tired' of being a sidekick(what SUPERSTAR/FRANCHISE player makes that quote?)

ok, if he wasnt DIESEL's sidekick then was he SCOTT+VANEXEL+JONES's sidekick? why was the organization/WEST/coach so stupid to bench this once in a lifetime 2nd coming of JORDAN and get swept with DIESEL 2x in 3yrs?

KB was a scorer from day 1,thats how he impacts the game..scoring, he dropped 30 in that allstar rookie game in 96-97 and he does the same thing now..a scorer...you LAKER fanatics act like KB did something so drastic from being a 13th pick scorer/backupguard to a allstar player.....wasnt he supposed to start from day 1 being the FRANCHISE guard? then you guys will bring up his age....well he was a lottery pick right? MAGIC/BRON/AI/SHAQ were all that good at 18 as they were at 25....and so was KB8-24

its not hate when you post **** documented and happened...and its not impressive to have a great work ethic considering you LAKER fans told me he was backing up 3 guards when he entered the league..or was he 'competing' for minutes with those other ''AVG-good'' players? if im thinking in my mind im the 2nd coming of JORDAN(like KB did) and im highschool player of yr and my dad played in league and im sitting being 3 avg- good players for minutes im going to bust my *** of in the gym like the media portrays KB's work ethic to be...bravo for that

KB refused to go to HORNETS because he would have a 16yr career of that little 05-7 stage with yall LAKER fanatics...scoring titles mixed with 1st rd/no playoffs....he basically did same thing MAGIC did and they are the 2 greatest LAKERS(frontrunners) of all time...MAGIC said ALCINDOR/LA or back to college and KB said no to NETS/HORNETS then traded for a avg-good C in DIVAC..sounds familiar right? avg-good player traded for a tru FRANCHISE player or a developing player? i'll say the latter

then you'll use the 5 rings bs talk, but will ignore FISHER/HORRY who have a combined 12 and BARKLEY/AI/MALONE/STOCKTON/NASH/EWING have a combined 0 and they are all better individual than those with multi rings, but KB's 5 is just like something we've never seen even though according to history he was ROBIN/SIDEKICK for 3 and BATMAN for 2,like really?,why wasnt he BATMAN from day1 and SHAQ's equal? cause i know for a fact VANEXEL/JONES werent on SHAQ's level,ever.... then i'll hear he's a alpha dog and SHAQ's equal in 2003 then i say what alpha dog backups 3 avg-good players for 3-4yrs then is alltime legend by his 7th season?...i smell 'hype'

but i like to call him the JETER of NBA, good player whos had his moments and has kept a nice longevity about him, and i think he does have a work ethic thats strong, being a backup for yrs(and false JORDAN hallucinations) will do that for ya..pretty much all backup players turned starters/allstars have a strong *** work program...extra overtime if you competing against 3 players at same positions...sounds like a developing player right? you LAKER fanatics are oustanding when it comes to ranking 'your' players...just imagined if SHAQ/ALCINDOR/WILT would have played for LA entire career like KB/MAGIC...they would be hands down greatest players ever, just based on LAKER nation biased(individually they would have the credentials regardless of the 'rings)

i always felt he could playthe game of bball,he was highschool player of yr coming out and a mirror image JORDAN

So if im a hater, then you're mos def a NBA player overrater

Just imagined if WILT had won those 5 OT FINALS game 7's and have 7rings instead of 2..you LAKER fans would sware KB would pass him as greatest because he scored 81pts in a game..because in my book WILT would have been undisputed greatest of alltime with 7 instead of 2rings,but hes still the most dominant bar none,in history

i used WILT as example because JORDAN is way way overly used,wrongly so

Bruno
09-16-2012, 04:54 PM
did a read through here. good stuff from a lot of people. stillwater runs deep.

Andrew32
09-16-2012, 04:59 PM
This is how I would say it for Kobe.

2002-2003, he and Tim Duncan were 1A and 1B.

No he wasn't...
Shaq was much better then Kobe in 2003 and so was Duncan.

You can also argue that KG / T-Mac were better but at the very best he is #3.

The Lakers started 3-9 with Kobe leading the team... Shaq came back and led them to a good record.

Also please stop the BS that Shaq was lazy.
Shaq always played his hardest in the playoffs and his pnr defense was well above average that year.
No one could stop a young Parker from getting to the rim but trying to blame Shaq for that is absurd.

Playoff DRTG 2003
Shaq : 103
Kobe : 110

Nuff said...
Kobe was terribly defensively in the 2003 playoffs while Shaq was elite.

O'neal had a better regular season and a much better playoffs.

03 Shaq / Duncan >>> any version of Kobe.

Not to mention Kobe got injured and played terribly in the 2nd round VS SAS.
I know you didn't watch the series though.

In the first two games against the Spurs (both losses) Kobe's TS% was a putrid 47%.
-He was also playing selfishly and hogged the ball while only averaging 1.5apg.
-He also had 5 turnovers in each game.

In the final game of the series (G6) he dropped 20 / 6 on 50%TS with 7 turnovers.

Shaq had a pretty awesome series considering his competition but Kobe choked.
Bryant wasn't the only reason they lost that year.
Horry was god awful and the team suffered from a thin roster made worse by injury's but his poor/selfish play did arguably cost them a chance to advance and win a title anyway.

seikou8
09-16-2012, 05:00 PM
No he wasn't...
Shaq was much better then Kobe in 2003 and so was Duncan.

You can also argue that KG / T-Mac were better but at the very best he is #3.

The Lakers started 3-9 with Kobe leading the team... Shaq came back and led them to a good record.

O'neal had a better regular season and a much better playoffs.

03 Shaq / Duncan >>> any version of Kobe.

Not to mention Kobe got injured and played terribly in the 2nd round VS SAS.
I know you didn't watch the series though.

In the first two games against the Spurs Kobe's TS% was a putrid 47%.
He was also playing selfishly and hogged the ball while only averaged 1.5apg.
He also had 5 turnovers in each game.
In the final game of the series (G6) he dropped 20 / 6 on 50%TS with 7 T/O.

ishhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh your a hater :rolleyes:

Andrew32
09-16-2012, 05:06 PM
ishhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh your a hater :rolleyes:

More like a dedicated fan... someone who prefers the truth over opinions formed by popularity and bias.

Kobe was great in 03 but saying he was even comparable to let alone better then Duncan or Shaq that year is a ridiculous statement imo.

Kobe has never come close to producing or impacting the game on the level as those two did that year.

That was one of Shaq's best years... he was incredible that year.
27 / 15 / 4apg / 3bpg on 57%TS in the playoffs... insane.

Lake_Show2416
09-16-2012, 05:34 PM
Kobe from 2005-2010 was the best player in the league

Andrew32
09-16-2012, 05:42 PM
Kobe from 2005-2010 was the best player in the league

No... Kobe was never "clearly" the best player in the league any year.

You can argue he was MVP in 06, 07 and 08... that is all.

However in 06 you had Duncan, Wade, Nash etc... and probably 1-3 others I am forgetting with a case against him.
In 07 you had Duncan, Dirk, Nash (and maybe others) with a case against him.
In 08 you could very strongly argue that CP3 was better.

Again... from 06-08 are the years where he probably had a case for best player each year but that is all.

There are no other years where he has any consideration for best player.

LoveMeOrHateMe
09-16-2012, 05:50 PM
lol at kobe being the best player in any year

Lol at You for thinking differently from 04-10 Kobe was basically the best and most talented player

jerellh528
09-16-2012, 05:54 PM
No... Kobe was never "clearly" the best player in the league any year.

You can argue he was MVP in 06, 07 and 08... that is all.

However in 06 you had Duncan, Wade, Nash etc... and probably 1-3 others I am forgetting with a case against him.
In 07 you had Duncan, Dirk, Nash (and maybe others) with a case against him.
In 08 you could very strongly argue that CP3 was better.

Again... from 06-08 are the years where he probably had a case for best player each year but that is all.

There are no other years where he has any consideration for best player.

no player in the modern NBA was clearly the best player in any year besides jordan era, with that being said, kobe was widely regarded as the best player throughout most of the 00's, players, coaches, owners agree...

LoveMeOrHateMe
09-16-2012, 05:59 PM
This is how I would say it for Kobe.

2002-2003, he and Tim Duncan were 1A and 1B. Duncan obviously finals MVP and league MVP, but Kobe individually was the best offensive and defensive player in the game, a killer on the court. (Kobe that season with Shaq on the team averaged 30 PPG, just under 7 boards a game, just under 6 dimes a game, career-high 2.2 SPG, just under 1 BPG, shot career high 38.3% 3 pt range, I mean that was the year where he scored 55 against MJ and the Wiz where in the first half of that game he made 8-10 from 3 pt, and NBA record 12 3 peers in a game against the Seattle Sonics, and also that yr 9 straight games of 40+ with Shaq designated as the focal point of the offense).


2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2007-2008, Kobe still playing elite defense, top 3 perimeter defender in the game behind guys like Artest and Bowen, but was flat out the greatest scorer the association has ever seen and was the bet closer no question.


2008-2009 and 2009-2010, LeBron overtook Kobe for best player in the league, but Kobe was still more effective defensively than LeBron both those years and Kobe was by far the best closer in the game.


So really, Kobe has 4 yrs where he could rightfully so be labeled the best player in the league.

2002-2003 (debatable b/w him and TD)

2005-2006, 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 (Hands down, no question best player in the game!)

I agree with everything besides the part where u say Lebron overtook Kobe in 08-09 it was more like in 2010 you can ven check the psd rankings, espn wherever they all had Kobe higher then bron up until 2010

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-16-2012, 06:04 PM
Andrew32 is completely correct in his notion that Kobe wasn't a true "leader" back then. I was talking skills wise.


And yes, I do remember, without Shaq and under Kobe's helm, the Lakers started 3-9.


All fair points by Andrew32. But Shaq being out of shape did hurt the Lakers that season. The only highlight of that season for Shaq was that I believe he shot close to 62% from the FT line, not his usual 50-55% previous years.


Again, 2003 season is up in the air, I honestly can't refute if people say that Kobe wasn't the best that yr. Duncan had the hardware to prove that he was the man in 03.



I just get upset with the fact that fans denigrate Duncan's supporting cast in 03 to make a better case for him individually. In an above post, I have explained why Duncan's 03 supporting cast was pretty legit.

Andrew32
09-16-2012, 07:24 PM
All fair points by Andrew32. But Shaq being out of shape did hurt the Lakers that season. The only highlight of that season for Shaq was that I believe he shot close to 62% from the FT line, not his usual 50-55% previous years.


Again, 2003 season is up in the air, I honestly can't refute if people say that Kobe wasn't the best that yr. Duncan had the hardware to prove that he was the man in 03.



I just get upset with the fact that fans denigrate Duncan's supporting cast in 03 to make a better case for him individually. In an above post, I have explained why Duncan's 03 supporting cast was pretty legit.
I really don't think Kobe's Peak was in 03.

Hell... I think he was better in 01 then in 03... even though I think his actual Peak was somewhere from 06-09.

I actually agree with you that Duncan's 03 cast is underrated.
They actually had a pretty good defensive roster and great coaching.

I don't think you need to bring up casts to say Duncan was better in 2003 though.

In the regular season they may not have been that far apart but Duncan to me was clearly better.
He had a higher PER / WShares / WSP48 and ORTG/DRTG.

Offensively they weren't that far apart but defensively Duncan's impact was just way better.

In the playoffs Duncan raised his level of play dramatically while Kobe's level of play declined massively.

Not only that but Duncan was clearly better in the LAL/SAS series and closed out the series with a monster game while Kobe had a stinker.

Overall I think it's clear Duncan was better that year (as was O'neal).

After that you have KG/T-Mac/Kobe

I personally think T-Mac was more impressive that year and depending on how much you value KG's defense/intangibles you could rank him over both of them.

Chronz
09-16-2012, 07:29 PM
HOWEVER....


How did Duncan have a subpar supporting cast in 2003?
Well it was a league that was pretty worn down and injured so I guess that would make them by default, at par. Still compared to other championship teams, that was one meh team. The only argument would be that the Lakers, even with the decline and injuries were at best comparable. The Mavs and Kings were definitely more talented, but both saw their best players go down with an injury. The Spurs were literally the only team left standing IMO. So in that sense I should take back what I said. Still, what it took from Duncan as an individual to carry such mediocre teammates (which despite your impressive break down they were), all the the way to the chip in dominant 2-way fashion was Hakeem-esque

Still, I feel like responding to the rest of your post.


He got healthy in 02-03 and was a beast defensively, and that's when Kobe started having trouble with San Antonio as Bowen would make him into a low percentage shooter.

Yes, Bowen was a solid role player.


Factor that with Tony Parker, who the Lakers had no answer at all for in the 2003 Semis. He would get to the rim at will and Shaq's fat lazy out of shape butt couldn't and refused to guard the pick and roll and all the Lakers could do to stop the 2nd yr guy Tony Parker was to knock him flat on his *** every time he got to the rim (that's what Samaki Walker and Robert Horry were called upon for, and at times, if he wasn't into foul trouble going against the twin towers, Shaq).
I was comparing the Spurs talent vs their league, not just vs the Lakers. I know this is hard to admit but the Lakers arent the barometer for a teams talent base. Just about every other team the Lakers faced had a PG that could exploit those weaknesses, **** even Troy Hudson owes his contract to how he tore the Lakers up. That doesnt change the fact that TP was in his 2nd year as a 20 year old. Remember Kobe at that age and more experienced? well TP makes Kobe look like a future GOAT performer. TP was the most inconsistent player I can recall seeing in the playoffs. First game of the playoffs he gos 2/13 and the Spurs lose vs the 8th seeded Suns. 1-7 the next game. Then he will have a 25+pt game but for the most part he had alot of truly awful games. Its pretty well known just how important having Speedy Claxton was just to provide some stability on the nights when it was clear TP had to sit out.

The team even NEEDED a miracle from Steve Kerr just to beat a Dirk-less team in a series. Even in the Lakers series he threw up some 3/10, 1/8, 6/17 nights.



That was also Ginobili's 2nd season and David Robinson's last season. Yes, he was old as hell, but the length of both Duncan and RObinson gave Shaq some trouble for sure.

No this was Manu's rookie year and it being D-Robs last season doesnt really help much. He was a replacement level player for sure, which is impressive for his condition, but your expecting name value to carry you far if you want me to suspend my disbelief that they were anything other than at the worst points in their careers.



Another component you forgot, Stephen Jackson.
Seriously, I forgot? Thats cute


He was so good in 02-03, that the Spurs couldn't retain him because he got more money that summer of 2003 with the Hawks.
That didn't happen. Even if it did, what does that say if the Spurs didnt want to retain you because you were set to make 500k more than you made the year before? He claims his agent messed up the contract talks, but that in the end his agent preferred that he go to a moribund franchise and boost his individual status on a 1 year deal, which after a 18PPG season he then extended to the MLE.

But forget money, his actual game wasn't all that special. I mean a solid role player but notice how thats all he has. A bunch of solid role players, that kind of makes any team comparable to his.



Don't give me that garbage that Duncan didn't have a good supporting cast. They were an awesome defensive team not just in the interior with him and DRob, but also on the perimeter with Bowen and SJax. And guys that season had problems defending the 2nd yr guy TP, and Manu was crafty as hell, and wasn't the protyptical 2nd yr player as he had played several years of professional basketball in Argentina
Too young TP, rookie Manu, old as hell D-Rob and x-factors like Jacko and Speedy aren't my idea of a great cast. But I will admit it was a weak year for the NBA in terms of health. That really screwed the matchups, but I try not to discredit Duncan for that because we dont know if he would have lost to anyone healthy that year. He was truly at his most dominant.

Hawkeye15
09-16-2012, 07:30 PM
All you Kobe haters are Dumb as the day is long. You probably never made a basketball team past elementary school in your life and don't understand the skill only Kobe has had in the NBA since Jordan retired. But you haters won't get your way, no one hears you in mainstream media. The players, Gm's, reporters, and former players will decide. And so far they all have Kobe right behind Jordan. And once Kobe gets these back to back Championships he will have 7 and all you haters will have a miserable life lol I CAN'T WAIT!!

well someone lives vicariously thru their hero. Honestly, with that post, do you expect your first insult to possibly be taken seriously?

Hawkeye15
09-16-2012, 07:32 PM
Its funny. When I read Kobephiles responses, its, "you are a hater, he has 5 rings". They provide minimal basketball context, statistics, or roster arguments at all (outside the obvious few who still bow to Bron or Duncan when its due). Its as if he has this following of uneducated fans enamored by his team success and resemblance to Jordans game, albeit a poor mans version of it. Its like they protect him as if he were their kid. Its interesting to me.

Andrew32
09-16-2012, 07:39 PM
Parker was very inconsistent in 2003 and it isn't like he tore up the Lakers.
He averaged 15ppg on 48%TS against LAL.

naps
09-16-2012, 07:41 PM
this thread belongs in the lakers forum

just another kobe fan trying to preach kobe over lebron

+1.

#InsecurityKicksIn
#Begging4validation

Chronz
09-16-2012, 07:41 PM
Parker was very inconsistent in 2003 and it isn't like he tore up the Lakers.
He averaged 15ppg on 48%TS against LAL.

I think it was the wins he tore them up in that hes remembering. But thats how Parker was against everyone, some nights good, other nights jibberish.

Andrew32
09-16-2012, 07:45 PM
I think it was the wins he tore them up in that hes remembering. But thats how Parker was against everyone, some nights good, other nights jibberish.
I wouldn't say he really "tore them up" except in the elimination game.

He was "good" in 2/4 games they won to go along with one amazing game (where he tore them up) and one stinker.

b@llhog24
09-16-2012, 08:39 PM
KB-PAU-DH Its so amusing that KB has all these 'haters'

he said he was a 'sidekick' himself to PHIL JAX ..according to his book, he said he was 'tired' of being a sidekick(what SUPERSTAR/FRANCHISE player makes that quote?)

ok, if he wasnt DIESEL's sidekick then was he SCOTT+VANEXEL+JONES's sidekick? why was the organization/WEST/coach so stupid to bench this once in a lifetime 2nd coming of JORDAN and get swept with DIESEL 2x in 3yrs?

KB was a scorer from day 1,thats how he impacts the game..scoring, he dropped 30 in that allstar rookie game in 96-97 and he does the same thing now..a scorer...you LAKER fanatics act like KB did something so drastic from being a 13th pick scorer/backupguard to a allstar player.....wasnt he supposed to start from day 1 being the FRANCHISE guard? then you guys will bring up his age....well he was a lottery pick right? MAGIC/BRON/AI/SHAQ were all that good at 18 as they were at 25....and so was KB8-24

its not hate when you post **** documented and happened...and its not impressive to have a great work ethic considering you LAKER fans told me he was backing up 3 guards when he entered the league..or was he 'competing' for minutes with those other ''AVG-good'' players? if im thinking in my mind im the 2nd coming of JORDAN(like KB did) and im highschool player of yr and my dad played in league and im sitting being 3 avg- good players for minutes im going to bust my *** of in the gym like the media portrays KB's work ethic to be...bravo for that

KB refused to go to HORNETS because he would have a 16yr career of that little 05-7 stage with yall LAKER fanatics...scoring titles mixed with 1st rd/no playoffs....he basically did same thing MAGIC did and they are the 2 greatest LAKERS(frontrunners) of all time...MAGIC said ALCINDOR/LA or back to college and KB said no to NETS/HORNETS then traded for a avg-good C in DIVAC..sounds familiar right? avg-good player traded for a tru FRANCHISE player or a developing player? i'll say the latter

then you'll use the 5 rings bs talk, but will ignore FISHER/HORRY who have a combined 12 and BARKLEY/AI/MALONE/STOCKTON/NASH/EWING have a combined 0 and they are all better individual than those with multi rings, but KB's 5 is just like something we've never seen even though according to history he was ROBIN/SIDEKICK for 3 and BATMAN for 2,like really?,why wasnt he BATMAN from day1 and SHAQ's equal? cause i know for a fact VANEXEL/JONES werent on SHAQ's level,ever.... then i'll hear he's a alpha dog and SHAQ's equal in 2003 then i say what alpha dog backups 3 avg-good players for 3-4yrs then is alltime legend by his 7th season?...i smell 'hype'

but i like to call him the JETER of NBA, good player whos had his moments and has kept a nice longevity about him, and i think he does have a work ethic thats strong, being a backup for yrs(and false JORDAN hallucinations) will do that for ya..pretty much all backup players turned starters/allstars have a strong *** work program...extra overtime if you competing against 3 players at same positions...sounds like a developing player right? you LAKER fanatics are oustanding when it comes to ranking 'your' players...just imagined if SHAQ/ALCINDOR/WILT would have played for LA entire career like KB/MAGIC...they would be hands down greatest players ever, just based on LAKER nation biased(individually they would have the credentials regardless of the 'rings)

i always felt he could playthe game of bball,he was highschool player of yr coming out and a mirror image JORDAN

So if im a hater, then you're mos def a NBA player overrater

Just imagined if WILT had won those 5 OT FINALS game 7's and have 7rings instead of 2..you LAKER fans would sware KB would pass him as greatest because he scored 81pts in a game..because in my book WILT would have been undisputed greatest of alltime with 7 instead of 2rings,but hes still the most dominant bar none,in history

i used WILT as example because JORDAN is way way overly used,wrongly so

I swear I just skip all of your posts.

jerellh528
09-16-2012, 09:10 PM
+1.

#InsecurityKicksIn
#Begging4validation

hashtags are for twitter and instagram...when you hashtag something in here it does nothing.

magic0320
09-17-2012, 12:21 AM
I just ****in laugh when people say kobe was side kick those three years when kobe was the one that who carried Lakers during hardest series in the playoffs. if bulls beat heat in conference finals and rose score 30 ppg, and in the finals rose score 10 ppg and someone else win the finals MVP is rose sidekick to who ever won the finals MVP????

amos1er
09-17-2012, 12:24 AM
I can respect just about everything you've said here, but my issue was with how the criteria changes with Laker fans. In regards to 2009 I will willingly give Kobe the edge over Wade slightly because of everything you said, but not over LeBron because of your argument for Kobe over Wade in 2006. You justified Kobe over Wade simply because of the regular season stats and how he performed in Round 1. But during that same playoff run, Wade had just about the same stats, and won the whole thing, which is the argument fans used against LeBron in 09, when he had much less help than Kobe. So my question to you is, why the change? Because LBJ actually was sniffing the Finals in 2009 with a mediocre cast, as opposed to 06 Kobe who was bounced out the first round, admittedly with a poor cast.

I only was intending on addressing the "Wade" claims when I originally posted. I did not intend to enter into a Lebron/Kobe debate.

No offense, but bringing up Lebron as a rebuttal to a Kobe/Wade debate is a strawman argument and for the record I want to show that I did not bring Lebron into this.

However, I know that I will be called out for "dodging the question" if I do not address it, so I will answer...

In 2009 I felt that Kobe had one of his best years as a professional basketball player. He did not post an incredible stat line or anything, but what he did do is get everyone involved like I had never seen before. The old Kobe who was criticized in the past for not being a team player was completely gone and for the first time in his career he was playing complete team ball, while being the undisputed leader of the team. IMO he played the best ball of his career in the 2009 season and it showed because he led the Lakers to 65 wins...the most since the 2000 season where Shaq was the leader of the team.

Obviously Lebron had the better stat line and led the Cavs to 66 wins (a franchise record). However, we all know that 66 wins in the east is like 58 wins in the west. Impressive, but no way that Lebron and the Cavs would have broken 60 wins in the west. I think even the biggest Lebron homers would agree with that one. No diss to Lebron or anything, it was amazing what he did in 09. He took a slightly above average roster and led them to the best record in the eastern conference. Not only that, he did it while posting an incredible stat line that beat out both Kobe and Wade. Clearly either he or Kobe were the two leading MVP candidates that year and he even though I was disappointed that Kobe didn't win, I can't argue that Lebron didn't deserve it.

Basically, I feel that Kobe could have and surely had the ability to post an incredible stat line that could have competed with Lebron, he just chose not to for the good of the team. Thats why I truly feel he played one of, if not his best season as a Laker in 09. It was the best team ball I had ever seen Kobe play. Also, lets factor in that in every head to head match up that season, the Lakers beat out the Cavs and Kobe clearly out played Lebron. In fact, the Lakers were the only team to beat the Cavs at home that season. So with that all said, here is my break down:

- Kobe led Lakers to 65 wins, Lebron lead Cavs to 66 wins. 65 wins in the west is more impressive than 66 wins in the east. But since Lebron didn't have anyone near as good as Gasol...its a wash IMO.

- Lebron had the better stat line. Advantage Lebron

- Lebron won the MVP. Advantage Lebron

- Kobe out played Lebron in both head to head match ups and Lakers beat the Cavs in both regular season meetings. Advantage Kobe

- Kobe went on to win the title and finals MVP and Lebron was upset in the ECF. Advantage Kobe

Its pretty debatable on who was the best player in 2009. Being a Kobe fan my opinion might be taken as bias, but I do give the slight edge to Kobe in 2009 due to him being the more experienced player that proved and has proven time and time again that he can close out big games on the biggest stages. That alone is the tie breaker to me and what make me lean towards saying Kobe was better by a hair that year. However, I can understand why some Lebron fans say that Lebron was best this year. Only as long as they are objective and do not make dumb comments like "Lebron was better by a landslide". Or "it wasn't even close". It was close and anyone who says different should not be taken seriously.

I am getting tired of typing, and don't want to get too much into the 2010 season. But I will say that Kobe was the better player in the first half of the season until about February, then injury set in and Lebron ended up having the better regular season. Lebron did lay an egg against Boston, and Kobe did go on to win it all again, but by the end of the 2010 season, it was clear that Kobe was starting to age and was no longer going to be in the conversation for best player in the league anymore. The 2010 season is very close between Kobe and Lebron IMO and could be argued evenly for both sides. Best answer for me is to say that they were 1a and 1b that season. Give or take who was 1a and who was 1b.

SteBO
09-17-2012, 12:28 AM
I only was intending on addressing the "Wade" claims when I originally posted. I did not intend to enter into a Lebron/Kobe debate.

No offense, but bringing up Lebron as a rebuttal to a Kobe/Wade debate is a strawman argument and for the record I want to show that I did not bring Lebron into this.

However, I know that I will be called out for "dodging the question" if I do not address it, so I will answer...

In 2009 I felt that Kobe had one of his best years as a professional basketball player. He did not post an incredible stat line or anything, but what he did do is get everyone involved like I had never seen before. The old Kobe who was criticized in the past for not being a team player was completely gone and for the first time in his career he was playing complete team ball, while being the undisputed leader of the team. IMO he played the best ball of his career in the 2009 season and it showed because he led the Lakers to 65 wins...the most since the 2000 season where Shaq was the leader of the team.

Obviously Lebron had the better stat line and led the Cavs to 66 wins (a franchise record). However, we all know that 66 wins in the east is like 58 wins in the west. Impressive, but no way that Lebron and the Cavs would have broken 60 wins in the west. I think even the biggest Lebron homers would agree with that one. No diss to Lebron or anything, it was amazing what he did in 09. He took a slightly above average roster and led them to the best record in the eastern conference. Not only that, he did it while posting an incredible stat line that beat out both Kobe and Wade. Clearly either he or Kobe were the two leading MVP candidates that year and he even though I was disappointed that Kobe didn't win, I can't argue that Lebron didn't deserve it.

Basically, I feel that Kobe could have and surely had the ability to post an incredible stat line that could have competed with Lebron, he just chose not to for the good of the team. Thats why I truly feel he played one of, if not his best season as a Laker in 09. It was the best team ball I had ever seen Kobe play. Also, lets factor in that in every head to head match up that season, the Lakers beat out the Cavs and Kobe clearly out played Lebron. In fact, the Lakers were the only team to beat the Cavs at home that season. So with that all said, here is my break down:

- Kobe led Lakers to 65 wins, Lebron lead Cavs to 66 wins. 65 wins in the west is more impressive than 66 wins in the east. But since Lebron didn't have anyone near as good as Gasol...its a wash IMO.

- Lebron had the better stat line. Advantage Lebron

- Lebron won the MVP. Advantage Lebron

- Kobe out played Lebron in both head to head match ups and Lakers beat the Cavs in both regular season meetings. Advantage Kobe

- Kobe went on to win the title and finals MVP and Lebron was upset in the ECF. Advantage Kobe

Its pretty debatable on who was the best player in 2009. Being a Kobe fan my opinion might be taken as bias, but I do give the slight edge to Kobe in 2009 due to him being the more experienced player that proved and has proven time and time again that he can close out big games on the biggest stages. That alone is the tie breaker to me and what make me lean towards saying Kobe was better by a hair that year. However, I can understand why some Lebron fans say that Lebron was best this year. Only as long as they are objective and do not make dumb comments like "Lebron was better by a landslide". Or "it wasn't even close". It was close and anyone who says different should not be taken seriously.

I am getting tired of typing, and don't want to get too much into the 2010 season. But I will say that Kobe was the better player in the first half of the season until about February, then injury set in and Lebron ended up having the better regular season. Lebron did lay an egg against Boston, and Kobe did go on to win it all again, but by the end of the 2010 season, it was clear that Kobe was starting to age and was no longer going to be in the conversation for best player in the league anymore. The 2010 season is very close between Kobe and Lebron IMO and could be argued evenly for both sides. Best answer for me is to say that they were 1a and 1b that season. Give or take who was 1a and who was 1b.
Oh no I know you weren't addressing LeBron. I only brought him up to address my point to you which was that I noticed how fans sometimes change their criteria from year.

I hear what you're saying, and it's a fair point. I just think when we're debating who's the better player from one year to the next, that we have a consistent criteria on how we judge these superstars. That's all I'm really trying to say.

amos1er
09-17-2012, 12:38 AM
No... Kobe was never "clearly" the best player in the league any year.

You can argue he was MVP in 06, 07 and 08... that is all.

However in 06 you had Duncan, Wade, Nash etc... and probably 1-3 others I am forgetting with a case against him.
In 07 you had Duncan, Dirk, Nash (and maybe others) with a case against him.
In 08 you could very strongly argue that CP3 was better.

Again... from 06-08 are the years where he probably had a case for best player each year but that is all.

There are no other years where he has any consideration for best player.

This is exactly the kind of trash posts that I am talking about.

You are in a very small minority with that theory. Most experts, players, GM's, coaches, and analysts disagree with everything you just said.

Kobe was clearly best in 06-08...very hard to debate otherwise. But I'm sure you will continue to make blanket statements trashing Kobe that have no substance what so ever. Even Lebron James admitted that Kobe was the best in the league during those years. So did MJ. Just accept it already and stop being a hater.

Here is Lebron saying that Kobe was the best player in the NBA...IN 2009!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

Here is Lebron saying that Kobe was best back in the 2006-2007 season.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl_HbwnjHLI&feature=related

Here is Lebron saying that Kobe was best back in the 2007-2008 season.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSsi2NayD6o&feature=related

Here is Lebron saying that Kobe was best back in the 2005-2006 season.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wRZmwfy3ms

Here are comments from players all around the league saying that Kobe was best. This video covers all throughout the 2006-2009 seasons and even some in the Shaq era.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoqbgOZrEg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYZAgKRtM8&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtGJSiMqpWk&feature=relmfu

STOP HATING PLEASE!!!