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View Full Version : 5th Annual PSD Player Rankings #5 Player In The NBA? (Volume: V)



Mile High Champ
09-13-2012, 10:18 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last four years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. The season is now over and the Heat have been crowned NBA champs which means its time to kick off the off-season player rankings.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron was labelled by some as Choke Artist in the clutch and now this year had one of the greatest finals performances in recent memory. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for two days and than we can carry on to the next best player in the league. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 4 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best

Rules of adding players to the Voting Process

In terms of adding players to the poll, it will be done like this.

As soon as Derrick Rose goes off the board, I will add other PG's.
As soon as Kobe Bryant goes off the board, I will add other SG's
As soon as Kevin Love goes off the board, I will add other PF's.

And so on and so on..

This is to ensure that players that won their respective positions get a higher place in the list.

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Dwight Howard
4) Chris Paul
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2011 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Dwight Howard
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Kobe Bryant
7) Kevin Durant
8) Derrick Rose
9) Deron Williams
10) Carmelo Anthony

2010 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Kevin Durant
5) Chris Paul
6) Dwight Howard
7) Carmelo Anthony
8) Dirk Nowitzki
9) Deron Williams
10) Tim Duncan - Pau Gasol Tie


2009 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwayne Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dwight Howard
6) Tim Duncan
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Carmelo Anthony
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Brandon Roy

Mile High Champ
09-13-2012, 10:20 PM
Next poll is up. Torn between Kobe and Love here. Love had the best year of any of the options on the board.

JNoel
09-13-2012, 10:22 PM
Love.

Avenged
09-13-2012, 10:27 PM
Torn between Kobe or Bynum.

:laugh2:

;)

JasonJohnHorn
09-13-2012, 11:07 PM
Come on.... this belongs to Kevin Love...

Avenged
09-13-2012, 11:13 PM
Kevin Love a top 5 player who couldn't bring his team to the playoffs? I think he is in the top 10 discussion but top 5?

Mile High Champ
09-13-2012, 11:16 PM
Kevin Love a top 5 player who couldn't bring his team to the playoffs? I think he is in the top 10 discussion but top 5?

Not every player can have Bynum and Gasol as a supporting cast. ;)

justinnum1
09-13-2012, 11:17 PM
Kevin Love a top 5 player who couldn't bring his team to the playoffs? I think he is in the top 10 discussion but top 5?

Some people dont want to vote kobe here and the next logical choice is wade but they are forced to vote for someone else(like love or rose).

Avenged
09-13-2012, 11:19 PM
Not every player can have Bynum and Gasol as a supporting cast. ;)

You don't need those type of players to make it at least as an 8th seed. If you're top 5 then you're the best of the best, you are elite. A superstar. To me, I think a top 5 player should at least be able to lead his team to the playoffs.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-13-2012, 11:40 PM
James-Durant-Howard-Paul-Bryant will be the top 5.


All NBA 1st team this past season as well as for next season.



Makes sense.

murphturph
09-13-2012, 11:41 PM
LOVE IS OVERATED! he puts up stats and yeah i think he is top 10 but put mello or dirk or kobe on his team last year and there making the playoffs

Swashcuff
09-13-2012, 11:51 PM
LOVE IS OVERATED! he puts up stats and yeah i think he is top 10 but put mello or dirk or kobe on his team last year and there making the playoffs

The Knicks barely made the post season last year in the EAST despite Melo having a MUCH better supporting cast. Last time Kobe had a supporting cast as poor as Love's he MISSED the post season (actually Kobe's cast was actually better than Love's in 04-05) and don't even get started with Dirk what exactly would Dirk do so much better than Love to bring his team to the post season. Dirk's supporting cast's D was the major reason the Mavs played as good as they did last season when Dirk wasn't playing like we knew he could.

That's a blanket statement which couldn't be more wrong.

You guys gotta do WAY better if you intend to make a case against Love here. He has as great an argument as anyone else here.

Swashcuff
09-13-2012, 11:55 PM
You don't need those type of players to make it at least as an 8th seed. If you're top 5 then you're the best of the best, you are elite. A superstar. To me, I think a top 5 player should at least be able to lead his team to the playoffs.

Between the years 1974-77 would you say that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was a top 5 player in the NBA?

Baller1
09-13-2012, 11:55 PM
Since he was voted there despite the injury, I'll vote for him under the impression that he's fully healthy. I'll take Rose.

Hawkeye15
09-13-2012, 11:59 PM
I am going Love. If Wade were an option, I would give it to him, but imo, Love had the best season individually of any of the players left. I understand some want to see playoffs, but even though he finally got a roster that was capable, his star PG tore his knee, and injuries killed the Wolves. His efficiency, rebounding, and statistical domination give him the nod here for me.

Baller1
09-14-2012, 12:04 AM
I am going Love. If Wade were an option, I would give it to him, but imo, Love had the best season individually of any of the players left. I understand some want to see playoffs, but even though he finally got a roster that was capable, his star PG tore his knee, and injuries killed the Wolves. His efficiency, rebounding, and statistical domination give him the nod here for me.

Wade should be here; really annoying that I'm forced to vote for the sixth best player at #5.

justinnum1
09-14-2012, 12:14 AM
wade should be here; really annoying that i'm forced to vote for the sixth best player at #5.

+1

Hawkeye15
09-14-2012, 12:27 AM
If we are voting which player is the best going into next year, how on earth can Rose be selected? Meh

douglas
09-14-2012, 12:30 AM
I voted for Kobe Bryant because he's really good and he makes a lot of game-winners. When you make a game winning shot, you win the basketball game.

LOVE42
09-14-2012, 12:43 AM
Love for me here. Cab rebound and score with the best in the NBA, incredibly versatile. Wade would also be a good choice if he were available

Corey
09-14-2012, 12:51 AM
Love had the best season out of the remaining players.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-14-2012, 12:52 AM
I voted for Kobe Bryant because he's really good and he makes a lot of game-winners. When you make a game winning shot, you win the basketball game.

#kobesystem

Hawkeye15
09-14-2012, 01:49 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=anthoca01&y1=2012&p2=bynuman01&y2=2012&p3=bryanko01&y3=2012&p4=rosede01&y4=2012&p5=loveke01&y5=2012

stat comparison for anyone who is interested.

Baller1
09-14-2012, 02:03 AM
If we are voting which player is the best going into next year, how on earth can Rose be selected? Meh

I ****ed up... I wasn't aware that we were voting on the anticipation of next season. In that regard, I'd take Love only because Wade can't be voted for.

If that's how the voting goes though, that's ******** for Westy. Rose clearly shouldn't be voted in this top 10, but if he isn't then D-Will and Westbrook get shafted. Ehhh... Whatever, can't be perfect I guess.

Hawkeye15
09-14-2012, 02:05 AM
I ****ed up... I wasn't aware that we were voting on the anticipation of next season. In that regard, I'd take Love only because Wade can't be voted for.

If that's how the voting goes though, that's ******** for Westy. Rose clearly shouldn't be voted in this top 10, but if he isn't then D-Will and Westbrook get shafted. Ehhh... Whatever, can't be perfect I guess.

I don't even know if there are rules on the voting, haha, I was just assuming I suppose. But why wouldn't it make sense to vote on who is better now, going straight into a season in 7 weeks?

OKC
09-14-2012, 03:04 AM
when healthy, rose.

49erGiantLaker
09-14-2012, 03:40 AM
I voted Kobe.

NYYCowboys
09-14-2012, 04:00 AM
Wade.... In protest I voted for Melo since no one on this list is deserving of 5th best.

naps
09-14-2012, 04:14 AM
You don't need those type of players to make it at least as an 8th seed. If you're top 5 then you're the best of the best, you are elite. A superstar. To me, I think a top 5 player should at least be able to lead his team to the playoffs.

That's ridiculous! Was Kobe a top 5 player in '04-05?

naps
09-14-2012, 04:21 AM
Kevin Love hands down. He was by far the best last year out of these players.

EDIT: The poll looks beautiful :laugh2:

nycericanguy
09-14-2012, 08:31 AM
You don't need those type of players to make it at least as an 8th seed. If you're top 5 then you're the best of the best, you are elite. A superstar. To me, I think a top 5 player should at least be able to lead his team to the playoffs.

Agreed, I can't overlook the fact that Love's team's have not even come close to sniffing the playoffs in 4 years. I mean its not like they've just been missing the playoffs barely, Love has a career .269% winning percentage, that's unbelievably bad.

Until he proves otherwise, he's a better version of David Lee to me. Lee can put up 20/12 & 4 on 55% on horrible teams when the games don't matter, but has never sniffed the playoffs.

FraziersKnicks
09-14-2012, 08:36 AM
I voted Melo because I can

SteBO
09-14-2012, 08:44 AM
I wish there was a way I could retract my vote because I agree that Kevin Love is a better player at this point than anyone on this poll. But I think it's a travesty that Dwyane Wade has to undeservingly fall out of the top 5, so maybe that validates the slipping of my fingers on my laptop.

nycericanguy
09-14-2012, 08:49 AM
I wish there was a way I could retract my vote because I agree that Kevin Love is a better player at this point than anyone on this poll. But I think it's a travesty that Dwyane Wade has to undeservingly fall out of the top 5, so maybe that validates the slipping of my fingers on my laptop.

If you had to build a team for next year around any one of those guys you'd take Love? A guy that really has never played a meaningful game in the NBA yet? You'd take him over Kobe & Rose? Heck, I'd even have to take Melo before Love.

I'd like to add, Knick fans take alot of heat on this forum for being biased, homers...etc... w/e you want to call them. But give them credit, Melo only has 3 votes, even though NY has the largest fan base on PSD.

Jesse2272
09-14-2012, 08:54 AM
If you had to build a team for next year around any one of those guys you'd take Love? A guy that really has never played a meaningful game in the NBA yet? You'd take him over Kobe & Rose? Heck, I'd even have to take Melo before Love.

I'd like to add, Knick fans take alot of heat on this forum for being biased, homers...etc... w/e you want to call them. But give them credit, Melo only has 3 votes, even though NY has the largest fan base on PSD.

:cheers:

SteBO
09-14-2012, 09:01 AM
If you had to build a team for next year around any one of those guys you'd take Love? A guy that really has never played a meaningful game in the NBA yet? You'd take him over Kobe & Rose? Heck, I'd even have to take Melo before Love.

I'd like to add, Knick fans take alot of heat on this forum for being biased, homers...etc... w/e you want to call them. But give them credit, Melo only has 3 votes, even though NY has the largest fan base on PSD.
Who's the best player Love has ever played with? Rubio? Ridnour? Beasly? Not everyone has the luxury of playing with elite big men, a HOF coach, and in regards to Chicago, a team that has the best defense we've seen in years. Circumstances need to be taken into consideration here.

nycericanguy
09-14-2012, 09:10 AM
Who's the best player Love has ever played with? Rubio? Ridnour? Beasly? Not everyone has the luxury of playing with elite big men, a HOF coach, and in regards to Chicago, a team that has the best defense we've seen in years. Circumstances need to be taken into consideration here.

For sure, I'm not saying he should take a lottery team to the finals, but .269% winning percentage? That has to be among the lowest in NBA history for a player in 4 years.

David Lee's last year in NY he put up a 20/12/4 stat line, yet he wasn't even considered a top 10 PF, let alone a top 10 player. Lee played with a very young Gallo, Chandler, Harrington & Duhon, and still led NY to 35 wins at least. There wasn't exactly much talent there either.

take a look at that season from Lee, compared to Love last season

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=loveke01&y1=2012&p2=leeda02&y2=2010

Yes Love is better, but Lee certainly holds his own. Now ask yourself, was Lee even considered a top 50 player that year?

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 09:38 AM
Agreed, I can't overlook the fact that Love's team's have not even come close to sniffing the playoffs in 4 years. I mean its not like they've just been missing the playoffs barely, Love has a career .269% winning percentage, that's unbelievably bad.

Until he proves otherwise, he's a better version of David Lee to me. Lee can put up 20/12 & 4 on 55% on horrible teams when the games don't matter, but has never sniffed the playoffs.

O really I didn't know this was an individual sport. This is a completely incorrect stat as it doesn't account for the games in which Kevin Love missed due to injury. Its the TIMBERWOLVES record since Love has been a member of the team inclusive of his rookie season when he wasn't even a starter.

He came into a losing system and came off the bench but hey lets hold it against him right because its all his fault after all as you say he and not the team has a .269 winning%.

Please don't attempt to use stats if you have NO CLUE how to put them into context.

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 09:53 AM
If you had to build a team for next year around any one of those guys you'd take Love? A guy that really has never played a meaningful game in the NBA yet? You'd take him over Kobe & Rose? Heck, I'd even have to take Melo before Love.

I'd like to add, Knick fans take alot of heat on this forum for being biased, homers...etc... w/e you want to call them. But give them credit, Melo only has 3 votes, even though NY has the largest fan base on PSD.

Okay so Rose is injured and may not return till after the halfway point in the season, Kobe chucked his team (inefficiently so) to a position that they really could have done better in and Melo really only played for half the season anyway and I'll take one of those guys over Kevin Love who gave his all from the word go because his team which was MUCH worse than those other players teams that makes NO SENSE.

Melo played with Amar'e and Chandler (DPOY) two all star calibre players though Amar'e didn't play anyhwere near that calibre, Kobe played alongside multiple all stars Rose played in the best defensive system in the game and when he went out his team still managed a top 5 W% but you're trying to tell me that you blame Kevin Love for his teams not playing well and not even mention the fact that his team was.

You guys really have NO idea how to gauge a player's worth.

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 10:03 AM
For sure, I'm not saying he should take a lottery team to the finals, but .269% winning percentage? That has to be among the lowest in NBA history for a player in 4 years.

David Lee's last year in NY he put up a 20/12/4 stat line, yet he wasn't even considered a top 10 PF, let alone a top 10 player. Lee played with a very young Gallo, Chandler, Harrington & Duhon, and still led NY to 35 wins at least. There wasn't exactly much talent there either.

take a look at that season from Lee, compared to Love last season

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=loveke01&y1=2012&p2=leeda02&y2=2010

Yes Love is better, but Lee certainly holds his own. Now ask yourself, was Lee even considered a top 50 player that year?

What you need to do is UNDERSTAND statistics. Before attempting to use them.

You use them wrongly in horrible context and think you're making a point by just throwing them out there. You are not. The major reason anyone compares Love to Lee is because they are both white. Lee is less like Love and more like a cheaper Zach Randolph but you don't hear anyone comparing them to one another because of it. You just fall into the whole classing the two players because of they way they look and not the way they play or what calibre of player they really are.

That's the whole problem with you using stats to make an argument against Love you just say well the look alike so they must be alike instead of taking a deeper understanding as to exactly how these players went about achieving those stats.

nycericanguy
09-14-2012, 10:13 AM
What you need to do is UNDERSTAND statistics. Before attempting to use them.

You use them wrongly in horrible context and think you're making a point by just throwing them out there. You are not. The major reason anyone compares Love to Lee is because they are both white. Lee is less like Love and more like a cheaper Zach Randolph but you don't hear anyone comparing them to one another because of it. You just fall into the whole classing the two players because of they way they look and not the way they play or what calibre of player they really are.

That's the whole problem with you using stats to make an argument against Love you just say well the look alike so they must be alike instead of taking a deeper understanding as to exactly how these players went about achieving those stats.

You seriously need to get off your high horse. We get it, you know ALOT about advanced stats.

That doesn't mean everyone else's opinion is invalid. I've been watching basketball since I was 12, I'm 29 now. I think after 17 years I know a thing or two about basketball.

theheatles
09-14-2012, 10:19 AM
This should be Wade but Kobe by default

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 10:27 AM
You seriously need to get off your high horse. We get it, you know ALOT about advanced stats.

That doesn't mean everyone else's opinion is invalid. I've been watching basketball since I was 12, I'm 29 now. I think after 17 years I know a thing or two about basketball.

I'm not on a high horse I am not Chronz. Your opinion is not invalid and mine isn't, yours however is misinformed and until you accept that you'll not be able to grasp the value of any player. Forget about colours, forget about stats forget about all that ish and make a non biased list of what each of the players bring to the table. I guarantee you you won't be speaking of Kevin Love in that light again.

Your arguments have more than a few inconsistencies. All I ask is for you to take a serious/unbiased look at Kevin Love and I bet you'd see what we are talking about. You may not think he's as good as others do but you CERTAINLY stop comparing him to David Lee. I don't know ALOT about stats PSK and Chronz does :laugh2:

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-14-2012, 10:29 AM
although kobe isnt top 5 and i voted for drose, lets just hope he gets off the poll, so i hope he wins, so dwade can go next lol

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-14-2012, 10:36 AM
its kinda annoying that ppl ONLY use team accomplishments to judge how an INDIVIDUAL is..

and its even more annoying when people with limited knowledge use the word 'stat stuffing' cmon now its the NBA, if it were easy to stat stuff wouldnt everybody do it since it leads to bigger pay checks? lol common sense people.

if someone's stats are good it means 1 of two things. a. they put themselves in position to get those stats, or b. they are lucky.

and if a player consistently gets those stats like lebron, jordan, kobe, klove, etc, that means that u can scratch out option b.

ball4reel
09-14-2012, 10:37 AM
I feel if your a top ten player in the nba you should have you team in the playoffs not bottom feeding. How can you be Elite if you cant carry your team. There is a huge difference between Stat stuffer and being an Elite player...My vote is Kobe Then Wade should be next

Baller1
09-14-2012, 10:38 AM
What you need to do is UNDERSTAND statistics. Before attempting to use them.

You use them wrongly in horrible context and think you're making a point by just throwing them out there. You are not. The major reason anyone compares Love to Lee is because they are both white. Lee is less like Love and more like a cheaper Zach Randolph but you don't hear anyone comparing them to one another because of it. You just fall into the whole classing the two players because of they way they look and not the way they play or what calibre of player they really are.

That's the whole problem with you using stats to make an argument against Love you just say well the look alike so they must be alike instead of taking a deeper understanding as to exactly how these players went about achieving those stats.

Why are you so against what he said? Whether or not he fully understands advanced statistics or not, it doesn't take a genious to look at those stats at think, "damn, he's got a point". Because quite frankly, he does have a point.

Whether you want to attribute that to Lee being underrated or Love being overrated is completely objective to each individual. However, they ARE very similar when comparing Lee's season that year to Love's this past season. Lee is actually one of the best passing big men in the league, and is actually a really, really good rebounder.

Injuries have hindered Lee's popularity and exposure, but when he's healthy he's one of the top all-around bigs in the game.

Kevin Love gets all the exposure because he has those random monster games. The 30-30, the tons of 20-20 games, the buzzer beaters, etc., but that's just because the media hypes Love up and Lee gets no love (;)). I don't disagree with you that Love is the clearly superior player, but you're jumping all over ny for literally no reason, because what he said is not a fallacy in any way.

ball4reel
09-14-2012, 10:41 AM
Who's the best player Love has ever played with? Rubio? Ridnour? Beasly? Not everyone has the luxury of playing with elite big men, a HOF coach, and in regards to Chicago, a team that has the best defense we've seen in years. Circumstances need to be taken into consideration here.

Maybe if Love Played defense he might have a better chance at making the playoffs

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-14-2012, 10:46 AM
I feel if your a top ten player in the nba you should have you team in the playoffs not bottom feeding. How can you be Elite if you cant carry your team. There is a huge difference between Stat stuffer and being an Elite player...My vote is Kobe Then Wade should be next

did you know that KG, with the t-wolves went to the playoffs 8 out of the 12 years he has been with them, did you also know that they missed the playoffs when he was 29 and 30, thats int he midst of his prime?

i wonder what you think of KG than?

......

ball4reel
09-14-2012, 10:50 AM
At the end of the day your judged on wins and losses. When Lebron was on the cavs and didnt make the playoffs would you still say he was an Elite player? He took a sub 500 team to the championship. You can put up great #s all day long, if it doesnt translate into wins how can you justify being an Elite player?

SteBO
09-14-2012, 10:50 AM
Maybe if Love Played defense he might have a better chance at making the playoffs
Totally irrelevant to my point, but I'll play along anway. Love's defense can most certainly improve, but that's not going to mean much if the team as whole isn't doing it. Michael Beasley, Luke Ridnour, Ricky Rubio, Nikola Pekovic (to an extent at least) aren't good defenders either. Stop putting this all on Love for it's a team sport. Since when did the NBA turn into tennis? There are 5 guys for each team on the floor at once.

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 10:50 AM
Maybe if Love Played defense he might have a better chance at making the playoffs

Many consider Kevin Garnett the best defensive PF of all time. Couple that with one of the best offensive games at the PF position in history. That didn't change the fact that he too missed the post season with piss poor players as teammates.

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 10:54 AM
At the end of the day your judged on wins and losses. When Lebron was on the cavs and didnt make the playoffs would you still say he was an Elite player? He took a sub 500 team to the championship. You can put up great #s all day long, if it doesnt translate into wins how can you justify being an Elite player?

So can't you comprehend how FOOLISH that is in a TEAM sport?

How can you say Love's #s don't translate into wins? Do you not realize how foolish that sounds. Ask yourself the question, where would Love's teams be without him? They be challenging the Bobcats for the worst winning % ever.

His play does translate into wins but that doesn't mean he's automatically going to take his team to the post season. LeBron James is literally the only player in the NBA that can take talent like that to heights no one saw coming. Replace Love with basically any other player and they fail to sniff the post season as well.

Chacarron
09-14-2012, 10:54 AM
A vote for Kobe is a vote for Wade.

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-14-2012, 10:55 AM
but sir.. lebron was an animal, and the cavs put decent players around him, not nba championship quality, but they were ok.

even kobe couldnt get out of the first round by himself.

this is why love isnt top 3 or top 2, but he has a case for top 5, imo.
not saying hes a shoe in, but he has a case.

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-14-2012, 10:55 AM
A vote for Kobe is a vote for Wade.

hahaha now youre getting it

SteBO
09-14-2012, 10:56 AM
At the end of the day your judged on wins and losses. When Lebron was on the cavs and didnt make the playoffs would you still say he was an Elite player? He took a sub 500 team to the championship. You can put up great #s all day long, if it doesnt translate into wins how can you justify being an Elite player?
Kobe Bryant either missed the playoffs or was a first round bounce-out from 04-07 and you had people saying he was the best player in the whole damn league so I fail to see your point. We're suppose to be judging the individual player here, not the team, and you can look up the stats or just use the eye test to see that Kobe simply isn't what he was and Love is the better player at this point.

If your going to involve wins/losses, then you're going to open a discussion regarding the Wolves/Lakers in this case, and the discussion itself is laughable because there's really no debate to be had. Love is better.

ball4reel
09-14-2012, 10:57 AM
did you know that KG, with the t-wolves went to the playoffs 8 out of the 12 years he has been with them, did you also know that they missed the playoffs when he was 29 and 30, thats int he midst of his prime?

i wonder what you think of KG than?

......

What im say is Love has not sniffed the playoffs 1 time in 4 yrs, thats my only problem. He has never been in a situation where his Heart or Basketball IQ was tested in a big game. He is a All-star not Elite .. As Far as KG If he didnt make the playoffs he was in the Battling for a playoffs spot.Has love ever had a above 500 season?

SteBO
09-14-2012, 10:57 AM
And I look ridiculous for saying this because I accidentally voted for Kobe on the poll.....

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-14-2012, 11:00 AM
What im say is Love has not sniffed the playoffs 1 time in 4 yrs, thats my only problem. He has never been in a situation where his Heart or Basketball IQ was tested in a big game. He is a All-star not Elite .. As Far as KG If he didnt make the playoffs he was in the Battling for a playoffs spot.Has love ever had a above 500 season?

well they are in the western conference, so cut them some slack.

lets see how he performs this season, but based off of last season, id have to say he def has some people's attention for top 5, and rightfully so, imo.

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 11:04 AM
I really didn't expect to be arguing against you here but hey.


Why are you so against what he said?

Because its wrong? :shrug:


Whether or not he fully understands advanced statistics or not, it doesn't take a genious to look at those stats at think, "damn, he's got a point". Because quite frankly, he does have a point.

So is stats all that matter? Do we not take into consideration role, system, cast, style of play, skill set, coaching etc? He'd have a point if he said Carlos Boozer, Zach Randolph, Shareef Abdur-Rahim etc as well. Why doesn't he compare Love to those players?

Had Love been from China and Lee from Congo they'd never be compared. They are both white and its a major reason as to why people keep comparing them when their games really aren't the same.


Whether you want to attribute that to Lee being underrated or Love being overrated is completely objective to each individual. However, they ARE very similar when comparing Lee's season that year to Love's this past season. Lee is actually one of the best passing big men in the league, and is actually a really, really good rebounder.

Okay. Could have said the same for Boozer and Randolph during that same time span as well couldn't you?


Injuries have hindered Lee's popularity and exposure, but when he's healthy he's one of the top all-around bigs in the game.

And he's still no where near Kevin Love's level as an all round player.


Kevin Love gets all the exposure because he has those random monster games. The 30-30, the tons of 20-20 games, the buzzer beaters, etc.,

Yea Kevin Love just happens to fall upon a couple record breaking performances here there and everywhere. Nothing special just random :p


but that's just because the media hypes Love up and Lee gets no love (;)). I don't disagree with you that Love is the clearly superior player, but you're jumping all over ny for literally no reason, because what he said is not a fallacy in any way.

Yes it was. In almost every way. You compare a few things here and there which a player has in common with another and act like they are carbon copies. This is not true.

Question.

Why compare David Lee to Kevin Love and not Zach Randolph or Carlos Boozer?

nycericanguy
09-14-2012, 11:09 AM
I really didn't expect to be arguing against you here but hey.



Because its wrong? :shrug:



So is stats all that matter? Do we not take into consideration role, system, cast, style of play, skill set, coaching etc? He'd have a point if he said Carlos Boozer, Zach Randolph, Shareef Abdur-Rahim etc as well. Why doesn't he compare Love to those players?

Had Love been from China and Lee from Congo they'd never be compared. They are both white and its a major reason as to why people keep comparing them when their games really aren't the same.



Okay. Could have said the same for Boozer and Randolph during that same time span as well couldn't you?



And he's still no where near Kevin Love's level as an all round player.



Yea Kevin Love just happens to fall upon a couple record breaking performances here there and everywhere. Nothing special just random :p



Yes it was. In almost every way. You compare a few things here and there which a player has in common with another and act like they are carbon copies. This is not true.

Question.

Why compare David Lee to Kevin Love and not Zach Randolph or Carlos Boozer?

Your entire post is full of assumptions. Where did I say I was comparing Lee & Love because they are white? I'm not comparing Lee to Boozer or Zbo because those guys aren't being discussed as top 5 players obviously.

I compared Lee to Love because they both put up gaudy stats on very bad teams, and they are both rebounding machines. And because I saw just about every game Lee played that year. Not to mention both are pretty bad on the defensive end. I think its a very good comparison, and theres no need to make it about race just because they are both white.

Is Love better? Yes of course, but looking at those comparisons its alot closer than you make it seem. Yet Lee wasn't even considered a top 50 player that year because he was on a bad team, yet Love is a top 5 player? Lee didn't even make the top 10 PF list on PSD that year. Sorry, I just can't put Love up there until he wins. I'm not a fan of empty stats. Take away Love from MIN and would they really be that much worse? I mean how much worse than .269% can you get?

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 11:09 AM
What im say is Love has not sniffed the playoffs 1 time in 4 yrs, thats my only problem. He has never been in a situation where his Heart or Basketball IQ was tested in a big game. He is a All-star not Elite .. As Far as KG If he didnt make the playoffs he was in the Battling for a playoffs spot.Has love ever had a above 500 season?

Guys are we talking about 1 on 1 pick-up ball on the streets or the National Basketball association where there are 10 players at a time on the floor? I really am not sure anymore because it seems as if we are talking about Kevin Love of the Minnesota Kevin Loves and not the Minnesota Timberwolves.

THIS IS A TEAM SPORT.

ball4reel
09-14-2012, 11:16 AM
Totally irrelevant to my point, but I'll play along anway. Love's defense can most certainly improve, but that's not going to mean much if the team as whole isn't doing it. Michael Beasley, Luke Ridnour, Ricky Rubio, Nikola Pekovic (to an extent at least) aren't good defenders either. Stop putting this all on Love for it's a team sport. Since when did the NBA turn into tennis? There are 5 guys for each team on the floor at once.

I agree with you 100%...But my feelings about 5 guys on the court is the leader Should have an impact on the rest of the team and i dont feel he does. Melo is 1 of the biggest underachviers in the game today and it drives me crazy that has not gotten to the next level as far as his play goes. But at the end of the day i would take a 1st rd exit over no playoffs at all. Do i think Love has another gear that he hasnt hit yet ,yes i do.Untill he hits that gear i dont feel he is a top ten, top 15 yes

ball4reel
09-14-2012, 11:21 AM
Guys are we talking about 1 on 1 pick-up ball on the streets or the National Basketball association where there are 10 players at a time on the floor? I really am not sure anymore because it seems as if we are talking about Kevin Love of the Minnesota Kevin Loves and not the Minnesota Timberwolves.

THIS IS A TEAM SPORT.

If were talking about Stats and if he has the stats for a top 10 player then yes. If we are talking about Who I would want on my team if I had a top 10 vote then no . Guess evey1's interpitation on the question is different..

Baller1
09-14-2012, 11:23 AM
I really didn't expect to be arguing against you here but hey.



Because its wrong? :shrug:



So is stats all that matter? Do we not take into consideration role, system, cast, style of play, skill set, coaching etc? He'd have a point if he said Carlos Boozer, Zach Randolph, Shareef Abdur-Rahim etc as well. Why doesn't he compare Love to those players?

Had Love been from China and Lee from Congo they'd never be compared. They are both white and its a major reason as to why people keep comparing them when their games really aren't the same.



Okay. Could have said the same for Boozer and Randolph during that same time span as well couldn't you?



And he's still no where near Kevin Love's level as an all round player.



Yea Kevin Love just happens to fall upon a couple record breaking performances here there and everywhere. Nothing special just random :p



Yes it was. In almost every way. You compare a few things here and there which a player has in common with another and act like they are carbon copies. This is not true.

Question.

Why compare David Lee to Kevin Love and not Zach Randolph or Carlos Boozer?

I gotta head to work so I can't respond as I'd like to, but all I meant by my post was that you're making the assumption that he's comparing them because of their skin color. He had a point, that point being that they're good all-around big men playing on ****** teams.

Also, David Lee is the better passer and more efficient scorer. I can honestly say that I wouldn't consider Kevin Love a much better all-around player than Lee.

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 11:53 AM
Your entire post is full of assumptions. Where did I say I was comparing Lee & Love because they are white? I'm not comparing Lee to Boozer or Zbo because those guys aren't being discussed as top 5 players obviously.

I compared Lee to Love because they both put up gaudy stats on very bad teams, and they are both rebounding machines.

Is Love better? Yes of course, but looking at those comparisons its alot closer than you make it seem. Yet Lee wasn't even considered a top 50 player that year because he was on a bad team, yet Love is a top 5 player? Lee didn't even make the top 10 PF list on PSD that year. Sorry, I just can't put Love up there until he wins. I'm not a fan of empty stats. Take away Love from MIN and would they really be that much worse? I mean how much worse than .269% can you get?

Hear what. If you can prove to me that Kevin Love has a career winning % of .269% I'll NEVER post on PSD again. How does that sound to you?

SteBO
09-14-2012, 12:00 PM
I agree with you 100%...But my feelings about 5 guys on the court is the leader Should have an impact on the rest of the team and i dont feel he does. Melo is 1 of the biggest underachviers in the game today and it drives me crazy that has not gotten to the next level as far as his play goes. But at the end of the day i would take a 1st rd exit over no playoffs at all. Do i think Love has another gear that he hasnt hit yet ,yes i do.Untill he hits that gear i dont feel he is a top ten, top 15 yes
I can respect this. All I'm saying is that in a poll where we're judging each individial player, what the team as a whole does shouldn't be the overriding factor into how well a player truly performeds over an 82+ game span. Wins and losses is predicated on what the "team" does, not the individual guy.

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 12:03 PM
I gotta head to work so I can't respond as I'd like to, but all I meant by my post was that you're making the assumption that he's comparing them because of their skin color. He had a point, that point being that they're good all-around big men playing on ****** teams.

Also, David Lee is the better passer and more efficient scorer. I can honestly say that I wouldn't consider Kevin Love a much better all-around player than Lee.

Better passer? Meh. In some regards yes but quite honestly I don't know if I've seen a better outlet passer in the NBA than Kevin Love in the last 5 years.

Zach Randolph also played on crap teams. His skill set is more resemblent of Lee's than Love's. Why aren't they compared?

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 12:18 PM
Is Love better? Yes of course, but looking at those comparisons its alot closer than you make it seem. Yet Lee wasn't even considered a top 50 player that year because he was on a bad team, yet Love is a top 5 player? Lee didn't even make the top 10 PF list on PSD that year. Sorry, I just can't put Love up there until he wins. I'm not a fan of empty stats. Take away Love from MIN and would they really be that much worse? I mean how much worse than .269% can you get?

Who is to say Lee isn't considered a top 50 player in that year?

He was voted at #9 in the PF ranking at the position which was hands down without a doubt the deepest in the league at that time. That would then simply mean that he would be around a top 40. This whole he won't be considered top 50 thing is a baseless argument IMO.

nycericanguy
09-14-2012, 12:36 PM
Who is to say Lee isn't considered a top 50 player in that year?

He was voted at #9 in the PF ranking at the position which was hands down without a doubt the deepest in the league at that time. That would then simply mean that he would be around a top 40. This whole he won't be considered top 50 thing is a baseless argument IMO.

well then I stand corrected there. But still, he was top 40 because he did it on bad teams, how can Love in the same regard now be top 5?

As far as his winning %, I wouldn't know where to look that up, I know Love has missed 30-40 games over the course of 4 years, but even that being considered, I doubt his career winning % is much above 30% if you factor in games missed.

Mile High Champ
09-14-2012, 12:45 PM
Agreed, I can't overlook the fact that Love's team's have not even come close to sniffing the playoffs in 4 years. I mean its not like they've just been missing the playoffs barely, Love has a career .269% winning percentage, that's unbelievably bad.

Until he proves otherwise, he's a better version of David Lee to me. Lee can put up 20/12 & 4 on 55% on horrible teams when the games don't matter, but has never sniffed the playoffs.


For sure, I'm not saying he should take a lottery team to the finals, but .269% winning percentage? That has to be among the lowest in NBA history for a player in 4 years.

David Lee's last year in NY he put up a 20/12/4 stat line, yet he wasn't even considered a top 10 PF, let alone a top 10 player. Lee played with a very young Gallo, Chandler, Harrington & Duhon, and still led NY to 35 wins at least. There wasn't exactly much talent there either.

take a look at that season from Lee, compared to Love last season

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=loveke01&y1=2012&p2=leeda02&y2=2010

Yes Love is better, but Lee certainly holds his own. Now ask yourself, was Lee even considered a top 50 player that year?

How many years has Love been in the league for? 4 years. Each season he has statistically improved significantly over that time. Who has he had the luxury of playing with during that period? Ricky Rubio, Michael Beasley, Luke Ridnour, Welsey Johnson, Darko Milicic? Where is the talent that is supposed to support him? Unless your Lebron, it is hard to do it on your own.

Also consider the fact that last year Rubio missed 25 games of the regular season while Nikola Pekovic missed 19 games. The only two players that played more games than Love last year on the T-Wolves were Derrick Williams and Wesley Johnson. Love simply did not have a healthy enough line up to complete.

Onto to the awful comparison of Love to Lee. They could not be anymore different. Only thing they share in common is their ethnicity and maybe rebounding. David Lee has never once put up a PER over 23 in his career. Love has already done it twice. This past season he finished with 25.4 while Lee was right around a good players average at 19.3. Consider also their rebounding %'s. Lee has never ever been at offensive rebounding. In the last 4 seasons he has not once posted an offensive rebounding % better than 9.7. Love in that time has put up numbers exceeding 11 and a career high of 15.1 4 years ago. Defensive rebounding is another area Love dominates Lee in as well. Lee has posted a career defensive rebounding % of 24.7 and Love 29.5. Really the argument is not close to who is the better rebounder.

Finally here are 3 other major reasons why Lee and Love should never ever be compared is about Defense, WS/48 & Shooting %. While Lee does have a fairly good TS% for his career, he has also done it by taking more than 69% of his shots within 9 feet of the basket. I am sorry but if you are taking 69% of your shots from within 9 feet, you damn well better put up TS% better than .549 which he has done the last 2 seasons. Love on the other hand has a much more diverse offensive game. Love's offense is split 50% from his shooting outside 9 feet and inside 9 feet. Yet Love still manages to have a TS% of .568 and .593 the last two seasons. Pretty incredible when he attempted 282 shots from beyond the arch last season. Love actually has an oustide game to speak of as evidence by his 40% 3 point percentage last season and his 37% average this past year. Lee really has no diversity in his offensive game what so ever. How are they at all similar or even close to being on the same level?

Lets look at WS/48. Lee in the last 5 years has put up a WS/48 best of .163 while Love in that same period has put up over .210 and .223 respectively. In both years, Love finished in the top of the leagues best. Love is simply more valuable to his team when he is on the court than David Lee.

Finally lets look at overall defense between the two. Love has year was a very good defender while Lee was amongst the leagues worst in that department. Last year Lee ranked as the leagues 387th best defender while Love was 91st. Lets look at this individual defensive stats a little closer.

Lee gives up 0.95 PPP (points per possession) on Isolation plays while Love gives up 0.65 PPP (49th best in the league).

Lee gives up 0.86 PPP on post ups putting him at 159th in the league while Love gives up 0.69 PPP in the post (32nd best in the league). Love is actually one of the leagues best post defenders.

Lee gives up 0.97 PPP on spot up shots while Love gives up 0.89 PPP on those same very plays. The only thing Lee does well is defend the pick and roll and even than it is such a small sample size that it makes up less than 10% of his defensive plays.

Looking at offensively. Love outperforms Lee as a spot up shooter, on pick and roll plays, isolation and post ups. How is Lee even in the same conversation when he does nothing better than Love on offense or even defense?


If you had to build a team for next year around any one of those guys you'd take Love? A guy that really has never played a meaningful game in the NBA yet? You'd take him over Kobe & Rose? Heck, I'd even have to take Melo before Love.

I'd like to add, Knick fans take alot of heat on this forum for being biased, homers...etc... w/e you want to call them. But give them credit, Melo only has 3 votes, even though NY has the largest fan base on PSD.

Melo over Love really? Do I need to show just how ordinary Melo has been the last few seasons in New York. I think any sane person would take Love and run.


Why are you so against what he said? Whether or not he fully understands advanced statistics or not, it doesn't take a genious to look at those stats at think, "damn, he's got a point". Because quite frankly, he does have a point.

Whether you want to attribute that to Lee being underrated or Love being overrated is completely objective to each individual. However, they ARE very similar when comparing Lee's season that year to Love's this past season. Lee is actually one of the best passing big men in the league, and is actually a really, really good rebounder.

Lee is not underrated, he is regarded as being an above average offensive player with very limited defensive ability. He struggles to be anywhere near efficient as Love and has never had an elite offensive season. (Best PER was a mere 22.7).

Love is perhaps the leagues best passing big man with the Gasol brothers in tow. Love is also a much stronger rebounder as I have shown so I really don't see that as a valid argument to why they are similar. They can rebound and they are both white. That is where the similarity needs to end.


Injuries have hindered Lee's popularity and exposure, but when he's healthy he's one of the top all-around bigs in the game.

Kevin Love gets all the exposure because he has those random monster games. The 30-30, the tons of 20-20 games, the buzzer beaters, etc., but that's just because the media hypes Love up and Lee gets no love (;)). I don't disagree with you that Love is the clearly superior player, but you're jumping all over ny for literally no reason, because what he said is not a fallacy in any way.

Not really at all. Lee played in the leagues biggest market for 5 of his 7 years in the league. Lee has has played in 81 games in three consecutive years over the last 5 years. The only year in the last 5 where he missed more than 10 games was last season's lockout shortened year. Not a valid argument at all really. Love plays in Minnesota of all place, what exposure does he have on national television in Minnesota? How is that an advantage?

How does media hype up 30 and 30 games? It an unreal stat to say the least and it should not be something that is overlooked. I am sorry but ESPN is not riding Love like they do with the other superstars of the league.

Maybe if Love Played defense he might have a better chance at making the playoffs

Actually he is amongst the leagues best defenders. :D (See above)

Mile High Champ
09-14-2012, 12:51 PM
Also, David Lee is the better passer and more efficient scorer. I can honestly say that I wouldn't consider Kevin Love a much better all-around player than Lee.

Your in the minority buddy.

nycericanguy
09-14-2012, 12:51 PM
^ You spent alot of time with that but I was comparing Lee's last season in NY and the praise (or lack thereof) that he got. Career wise Love blows Lee away, that wasn't being argued.

Mile High Champ
09-14-2012, 12:54 PM
^ You spent alot of time with that but I was comparing Lee's last season in NY and the praise (or lack thereof) that he got. Career wise Love blows Lee away, that wasn't being argued.

I realize that but even the year you were discussing does not even touch Love's last two seasons. I am not sure what stats you are looking at exactly but they are not at all similar.

Comparing selective seasons is a complete cop out in the discussion of whether they are similar. You have really not proven at all that they are similar outside of a PPG and RPG number.

I also discuss Lee's best season in my analysis and it really does not come close to what Love has done the last two years.

Mile High Champ
09-14-2012, 12:58 PM
The thing that you are missing is that even Lee's best year was not even close to be on what Love has done the last 2 years.

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 01:17 PM
Okay so since MHC just slaughtered that argument and proved his point can we move on and discuss the players actually on the poll?

BklynKnicks3
09-14-2012, 01:30 PM
People who voted for love know nothing about basketball or are just bias toward their team. The guy put up meaningless numbers on a 30 win team. It liek when jerry stackhouse avg 29 who cares the team sucks. The guy can shoot is a great rebounder but really doent have a legit offensive game he score 20 points a game on garbage points because hsi team sucks. If u ask the top 20 players in the NBA who is better kevin Love or Melo they would laugh. Kevin Love is a better david lee with more range not no real superstar. This is a damn joke. If u are a superstar in the league u alone should put ur team near .500, The funny part is that Rubio is more of a difference maker on that team then love The looked decent before Rubio got hurt. SMH @ fantasy basketball fans

BklynKnicks3
09-14-2012, 01:33 PM
Better passer? Meh. In some regards yes but quite honestly I don't know if I've seen a better outlet passer in the NBA than Kevin Love in the last 5 years.

Zach Randolph also played on crap teams. His skill set is more resemblent of Lee's than Love's. Why aren't they compared?

Zach actaully have a complete offensive game can put it on the floor. post u up. Outside of shootign and finishing garbage around the basket Love offensive game is avg at best

Mile High Champ
09-14-2012, 01:50 PM
Zach actaully have a complete offensive game can put it on the floor. post u up. Outside of shootign and finishing garbage around the basket Love offensive game is avg at best

Someone obviously did not watch Kevin Love last year play basketball. Average at best and he scored 26 PPG with a TS% of .570 including shooting 37% from beyond the arch. Also having a PER over 25 and having .210 WS/48. Yeah that screams average. :rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
09-14-2012, 02:10 PM
Did I just read 3 pages of comparing David Lee to Kevin Love? hahahahahahaha

mngopher35
09-14-2012, 02:11 PM
Zach actaully have a complete offensive game can put it on the floor. post u up. Outside of shootign and finishing garbage around the basket Love offensive game is avg at best

You claim people voting for love ont know basketball or are biased and then post this? Ridiculous. Kevin Love has a very solid offensive game with 26ppg on pretty good ts% (more points than melo on better shooting %). He has great range for a big man and also comes down with offensive boards giving his team extra opportunities. You say he scores on garbage points because his team sucks? Many players play on bad teams but none of them have the same statistical dominance of love, why is that? Also since hes on such a bad team other teams can put more focus on him than other players. All of the defenses focus is on love and yet he still finds ways to score. Im not saying hes guaranteed better than melo, kobe, wade but there is no doubt he is in the conversation at this point...

Hawkeye15
09-14-2012, 02:12 PM
Did Lee match Moses on a 30/30 game and a 20-15, or have four 20/20 games in a month? Did Lee set an NBA record with a 42-18 game, hitting five 3's? Did Lee make 2 all star teams? Did Lee average 28/18 per 40 in Olympic play? Did Lee make 2nd team all NBA? Did Lee go for 26/14 this season on supreme efficiency?

Should I go on? The 5 votes given to Melo and Bynum should be shat on if you want to pick a bone with the Love pick.

Chronz
09-14-2012, 02:13 PM
People who voted for love know nothing about basketball or are just bias toward their team. The guy put up meaningless numbers on a 30 win team. It liek when jerry stackhouse avg 29 who cares the team sucks. The guy can shoot is a great rebounder but really doent have a legit offensive game he score 20 points a game on garbage points because hsi team sucks. If u ask the top 20 players in the NBA who is better kevin Love or Melo they would laugh. Kevin Love is a better david lee with more range not no real superstar. This is a damn joke. If u are a superstar in the league u alone should put ur team near .500, The funny part is that Rubio is more of a difference maker on that team then love The looked decent before Rubio got hurt. SMH @ fantasy basketball fans

How did they look with Rubio but no Love?

Hawkeye15
09-14-2012, 02:13 PM
Zach actaully have a complete offensive game can put it on the floor. post u up. Outside of shootign and finishing garbage around the basket Love offensive game is avg at best

Thank you for finally admitting you never watch Love play basketball. By the way, you voted for an inferior player, why are you complaining?

Bruno
09-14-2012, 03:31 PM
Went Kobe here for the first time. he had the best combination of regular season/post-season out of any player left on the board (Bynum has an argument too in that respect).

PSDs top five will be an identical reflection of the 2012 All NBA First Team. Mile High wanted consistency, and you got it champ ;)

Now that the top five is complete I'll be going Love or Wade next. LOL @ the Carmelo votes here at #5

mrblisterdundee
09-14-2012, 03:50 PM
It's Kobe time. He might not be as fast as Rose, but he has a better range game, and he's better in the clutch.
I love how people like to argue that because Love doesn't have as good of a supporting cast, he's more deserving of a higher ranking than Kobe. You could also use the inverted argument, where because Love's the primary scoring/rebounding threat on his team, he's able to pad his stats.
And thank you for reading my comment and putting Rose on the list. This poll was a complete joke without his presence.

b@llhog24
09-14-2012, 03:55 PM
It's Kobe time. He might not be as fast as Rose, but he has a better range game, and he's better in the clutch.
I love how people like to argue that because Love doesn't have as good of a supporting cast, he's more deserving of a higher ranking than Kobe. You could also use the inverted argument, where because Love's the primary scoring/rebounding threat on his team, he's able to pad his stats.

Then explain his ELITE efficiency? Having crap for teammates should make it hard for him to be this efficient don't you think?


And thank you for reading my comment and putting Rose on the list. This poll was a complete joke without his presence.

Not to sound offensive but nobody cared about your comment, Cp3 went off the board and Rose was his replacement.

jericho
09-14-2012, 04:04 PM
i just have 1 ??? i know rose is a top 5 talent but he didnt do much last season he only played 40 games playoffs included why are people voting for him

Mishmin
09-14-2012, 04:16 PM
It's interesting that the #5 player from last year, Dirk, probably won't even be in the top ten.. We'll see though.

Chronz
09-14-2012, 04:22 PM
It's interesting that the #5 player from last year, Dirk, probably won't even be in the top ten.. We'll see though.

Yea, I wish I could still vote for him instead of most of these guys

xnick5757
09-14-2012, 04:24 PM
love was so much better than kobe last year its not even funny.

xnick5757
09-14-2012, 04:31 PM
kobe: 27.9 PPG, 4.6 APG, 5.4 RPG

21.9 PER | .527 TS% | .462 eFG% | 7.8 TRB% | 11.7 TOV% | 6.2 WS | .132 WS/48


love: 26.0 PPG, 2.0 APG, 13.3 RPG

25.4 PER | .568 TS% | .497 eFG% | 19.0 TRB% | 9.2 TOV% | 10.0 WS | .223 WS/48


i can see that the laker's homers are out in full force today

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-14-2012, 04:37 PM
Yea, I wish I could still vote for him instead of most of these guys

I would take Dirk over 3/5ths of the poll here.


I have...

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Dwight/CP3
4. Dwight/CP3
5. Wade
6. Love
7. Rose
8. Dirk
9 and 10 is 2 out of Deron, Kobe and Westbrook.

b@llhog24
09-14-2012, 04:42 PM
i just have 1 ??? i know rose is a top 5 talent but he didnt do much last season he only played 40 games playoffs included why are people voting for him

Read the post below.


Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last four years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. The season is now over and the Heat have been crowned NBA champs which means its time to kick off the off-season player rankings.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron was labelled by some as Choke Artist in the clutch and now this year had one of the greatest finals performances in recent memory. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for two days and than we can carry on to the next best player in the league. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 4 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best

Rules of adding players to the Voting Process

In terms of adding players to the poll, it will be done like this.

As soon as Derrick Rose goes off the board, I will add other PG's.
As soon as Kobe Bryant goes off the board, I will add other SG's
As soon as Kevin Love goes off the board, I will add other PF's.

And so on and so on..

This is to ensure that players that won their respective positions get a higher place in the list.

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Dwight Howard
4) Chris Paul
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

jericho
09-14-2012, 04:50 PM
Read the post below.

i know the system i aint arguing about it lol infact when we were voting for 2nd or 3rd i was defending it. im just asling why are people voting for him rite now?? he only played in 40 games and didnt have that much of an impact this yr

MELO7NYK/DENfan
09-14-2012, 04:52 PM
How in the hell is Kevin Love getting votes. He's not even in the top ten well maybe top 10 u can argue, but hasn't led his team to a playoffs yet?

b@llhog24
09-14-2012, 04:55 PM
i know the system i aint arguing about it lol infact when we were voting for 2nd or 3rd i was defending it. im just asling why are people voting for him rite now?? he only played in 40 games and didnt have that much of an impact this yr

My bad, lol. Peoples interpretation of best is entirely subjective. An argument can be made that whenever Rose actually did play he was a top 5 player in the Nba. But what do I know? I picked Melo. :p

jerellh528
09-14-2012, 04:58 PM
why are people *****ing about wade? He had one of the worst years of his career last year, is on the wrong side of 30 and in injury prone not to mention his average defense, what makes so many people drink the cool aid? How does that merit being a top 5 player, if it does then the league has an extreme lack of talent at its upper echelon. I think people just say this stuff in forums due to their hate for kobe over their love of wade, in real life when you talk to people, I have never heard anyone consider wade better than kobe, even REAL heat fans.

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 05:02 PM
How in the hell is Kevin Love getting votes. He's not even in the top ten well maybe top 10 u can argue, but hasn't led his team to a playoffs yet?

So lets say a certain G.O.A.T. failed to make the post season in his first 3 years in the league he wouldn't and shouldn't have gotten top 5 votes? Is being a top 5-10 directly linked to making the post season no matter what?

If you can't lead your team to the playoffs you're not a top 10 player. That's a great logic to which everyone should agree with. I mean you can be #11 but not top 10 because you got to lead your team to the playoffs no matter what your supporting cast looks like. :rolleyes:

Do you guys see how ridiculous your logic is. If being a top 5-10 player was dependently linked with making the post season then there are more than a fair share of extremely highly productive players that can't be seen as top 10.

xnick5757
09-14-2012, 05:03 PM
How in the hell is Kevin Love getting votes. He's not even in the top ten well maybe top 10 u can argue, but hasn't led his team to a playoffs yet?


:facepalm:

b@llhog24
09-14-2012, 05:03 PM
why are people *****ing about wade? He had one of the worst years of his career last year, is on the wrong side of 30 and in injury prone not to mention his average defense, what makes so many people drink the cool aid? How does that merit being a top 5 player, if it does then the league has an extreme lack of talent at its upper echelon. I think people just say this stuff in forums due to their hate for kobe over their love of wade, in real life when you talk to people, I have never heard anyone consider wade better than kobe, even REAL heat fans.

He's not in my top 4 that's for sure, but he would have a great argument for 5 if he was on the board.

xnick5757
09-14-2012, 05:03 PM
So lets say a certain G.O.A.T. failed to make the post season in his first 3 years in the league he wouldn't and shouldn't have gotten top 5 votes? Is being a top 5-10 directly linked to making the post season no matter what?

If you can't lead your team to the playoffs you're not a top 10 player. That's a great logic to which everyone should agree with. I mean you can be #11 but not top 10 because you got to lead your team to the playoffs no matter what your supporting cast looks like. :rolleyes:

Do you guys see how ridiculous your logic is. If being a top 5-10 player was dependently linked with making the post season then there are more than a fair share of extremely highly productive players that can't be seen as top 10.

eddy curry led his team to the playoffs and won a championship, why isn't he an option in this poll?

Chronz
09-14-2012, 05:16 PM
why are people *****ing about wade? He had one of the worst years of his career last year
False


, is on the wrong side of 30
Hes actually on the right side of 30, if your going to be 30 years old its best to barely be 30 years old.


and in injury prone not to mention his average defense, what makes so many people drink the cool aid? How does that merit being a top 5 player, if it does then the league has an extreme lack of talent at its upper echelon. I think people just say this stuff in forums due to their hate for kobe over their love of wade, in real life when you talk to people, I have never heard anyone consider wade better than kobe, even REAL heat fans.
Cool story but Wade > Kobe now

jerellh528
09-14-2012, 05:29 PM
False

Hes actually on the right side of 30, if your going to be 30 years old its best to barely be 30 years old.


Cool story but Wade > Kobe now

true.

actually when you turn 30, you are on the wrong side of 30.

Kobe>wade always.

see how easy this is.

MELO7NYK/DENfan
09-14-2012, 05:32 PM
So lets say a certain G.O.A.T. failed to make the post season in his first 3 years in the league he wouldn't and shouldn't have gotten top 5 votes? Is being a top 5-10 directly linked to making the post season no matter what?

If you can't lead your team to the playoffs you're not a top 10 player. That's a great logic to which everyone should agree with. I mean you can be #11 but not top 10 because you got to lead your team to the playoffs no matter what your supporting cast looks like. :rolleyes:

Do you guys see how ridiculous your logic is. If being a top 5-10 player was dependently linked with making the post season then there are more than a fair share of extremely highly productive players that can't be seen as top 10.

You should be able to atleast lead your team to the playoffs if ur a top 10 player yes i agree with u somewhat, but isn't a great player supposed to lead is team to playoffs every year and he had a team last year that could've made it last year to, but didn't. Im not saying he sucks or whatever, he is a good palyer i just think he is overrated.

MELO7NYK/DENfan
09-14-2012, 05:35 PM
:facepalm:

Dont facepalm me and not give me argument tell me why like Swashcuff did.

b@llhog24
09-14-2012, 05:45 PM
You should be able to atleast lead your team to the playoffs if ur a top 10 player yes i agree with u somewhat but isn't a great player supposed to lead is team to playoffs every year

So he can be a top 11 player but not 10? And a question to you, was Kobe not a top player the year he missed the playoffs? What about KG? Micheal Jordan?


and he had a team last year that could've made it last year to, but didn't. Im not saying he sucks or whatever, he is a good palyer i just think he is overrated.

His second best player was a rookie with an anemic jump-shot and a second year center who only played 27 minutes. Never mind the fact that both of these players missed a significant amount of time in an already shortened season. After that who do you have? JJ Barea and Luke Ridnour? :laugh2:

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-14-2012, 05:46 PM
Dont facepalm me and not give me argument tell me why like Swashcuff did.

You never really proved why Love isn't a top 10 player:shrug:

JasonJohnHorn
09-14-2012, 06:11 PM
Seriously... Love had the best season of all the players currently available to vote for. I don't see how Kobe is running away with this...

Andrew32
09-14-2012, 06:23 PM
Kobe over Kevin Love?

I don't agree with that at all.

mngopher35
09-14-2012, 06:25 PM
Do people know that Kobe missed the playoffs in 04-05? Does this mean he wasnt a top 10 player that year? No, it means that even kobe near his prime cant lead a team to the playoffs alone if its full of trash. Kevin Love has been playing with very bad players except for half of last year with rubio and pek. If they dont make the playoffs this year then he can start getting some blame but as of now it clearly has to do with the players hes been surrounded with.

Kashmir13579
09-14-2012, 06:28 PM
This might be the worst year we've done this since i've been on board.

Kashmir13579
09-14-2012, 06:28 PM
PSD is getting dumber.

seikou8
09-14-2012, 06:34 PM
kobe is overrated

Chronz
09-14-2012, 06:35 PM
Whenever someone says you cant be a franchise player if you dont lead your team to the playoffs every year is most definitely a New York fan. Its the only way they can prop up a guy like Melo, by giving him ALL the credit for getting the team there and few of the blame for not getting further.

Forget that Wilt, Dream, Kareem, KG, Kobe have all missed the playoffs even while being top players in the game.

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-14-2012, 06:35 PM
kg, when he was 29 and 30 missed the playoffs, that alone nullifies your logic.

next comment pls.

Mile High Champ
09-14-2012, 06:36 PM
PSD is getting dumber.

You never ever bring anything to these threads. Stop trolling already.

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-14-2012, 06:38 PM
I would take Dirk over 3/5ths of the poll here.


I have...

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Dwight/CP3
4. Dwight/CP3
5. Wade
6. Love
7. Rose
8. Dirk
9 and 10 is 2 out of Deron and Westbrook.

i agree with 1-5.. botton 5 is where it gets tricky..
id put kobe in there out of respect, and the fact that teams have a gameplan for him..

but tbh, ur list isnt crazy, so well done.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-14-2012, 06:39 PM
i agree with 1-5.. botton 5 is where it gets tricky..
id put kobe in there out of respect, and the fact that teams have a gameplan for him..

but tbh, ur list isnt crazy, so well done.

Meant to put Kobe in with Deron and Westbrook. My bad.

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-14-2012, 06:41 PM
westbrook has potential to easily be in the top 10 next season.. im rooting for the kid but not rooting for him to win the nba title anytime soon lol

theheatles
09-14-2012, 06:45 PM
Seriously... Love had the best season of all the players currently available to vote for. I don't see how Kobe is running away with this...

The Wade Effect

MELO7NYK/DENfan
09-14-2012, 07:00 PM
So he can be a top 11 player but not 10? And a question to you, was Kobe not a top player the year he missed the playoffs? What about KG? Micheal Jordan?



His second best player was a rookie with an anemic jump-shot and a second year center who only played 27 minutes. Never mind the fact that both of these players missed a significant amount of time in an already shortened season. After that who do you have? JJ Barea and Luke Ridnour? :laugh2:

he can be, but they went to the playoffs and won ok maybe im not giving him enough credit i like him just dnt consider him in the top 5 he can though if he proves he can win.

jerellh528
09-14-2012, 07:16 PM
Most people who follow the NBA would say kobe is better than wade, or at worst its a wash, yet i have no idea how alot of you are putting wade in your top 5 yet kobe scraping for top 10...Do you actually think wade is 5 players better than kobe? If so, you have my pity.

Hawkeye15
09-14-2012, 07:22 PM
You should be able to atleast lead your team to the playoffs if ur a top 10 player yes i agree with u somewhat, but isn't a great player supposed to lead is team to playoffs every year and he had a team last year that could've made it last year to, but didn't. Im not saying he sucks or whatever, he is a good palyer i just think he is overrated.

Was Kobe a top 5 player in 04-05'? Was KG a top 5 player following his MVP season in 05-06'?

Kashmir13579
09-14-2012, 07:23 PM
Most people who follow the NBA would say kobe is better than wade, or at worst its a wash, yet i have no idea how alot of you are putting wade in your top 5 yet kobe scraping for top 10...Do you actually think wade is 5 players better than kobe? If so, you have my pity.

People who "follow" the nba know Kobe hasn't been an elite player in a few years.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-14-2012, 07:32 PM
People who "follow" the nba know Kobe hasn't been an elite player in a few years.

56 votes and counting.



You're Welcome. :dance:

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 07:39 PM
You should be able to atleast lead your team to the playoffs if ur a top 10 player yes i agree with u somewhat, but isn't a great player supposed to lead is team to playoffs every year and he had a team last year that could've made it last year to, but didn't. Im not saying he sucks or whatever, he is a good palyer i just think he is overrated.

Bro don't you understand how arbitrary that is?

Let's the Mavs weren't able to pull things together a bit after missing out on D.Will, Howard etc and they decided to have a firesale and just keep Dirk on board okay. Now Dirk comes into next season healthy and motivated to show the league he can still be an elite player but at the end of the season despite having a 25-9 on 60+ TS% and a bunch of game winners.

They end up missing the playoffs despite all he did for them. Does that mean that despite all he could as the only recognized player on his team that he isn't a top 10 player?

Dude that's a piss poor reasoning. This is a TEAM sport. You can't judge a top 10 player by something that he doesn't have great control over.

Can't you understand how foolish that logic is?

TheRunKiller
09-14-2012, 07:40 PM
would Paul still be ahead of rose if he never got hurt?

ball4reel
09-14-2012, 08:04 PM
Bro don't you understand how arbitrary that is?

Let's the Mavs weren't able to pull things together a bit after missing out on D.Will, Howard etc and they decided to have a firesale and just keep Dirk on board okay. Now Dirk comes into next season healthy and motivated to show the league he can still be an elite player but at the end of the season despite having a 25-9 on 60+ TS% and a bunch of game winners.

They end up missing the playoffs despite all he did for them. Does that mean that despite all he could as the only recognized player on his team that he isn't a top 10 player?

Dude that's a piss poor reasoning. This is a TEAM sport. You can't judge a top 10 player by something that he doesn't have great control over.

Can't you understand how foolish that logic is?

I Understand what your saying and agree with you 75%..How i see and and i think a few others is yes it is a team sport and if you have a horrible supporting cast you cant win in today's league.. But if you look at every player in the top 10 Love is the only 1 who didn't even come close to a playoff spot. I have relaxed my view after reading a few post but still feel he is closer to a top 15 and not a top 5..

mrblisterdundee
09-14-2012, 08:09 PM
Then explain his ELITE efficiency? Having crap for teammates should make it hard for him to be this efficient don't you think?



Not to sound offensive but nobody cared about your comment, Cp3 went off the board and Rose was his replacement.

You're kind of a douche by nature, aren't you? Love's definitely still the best power forward in the league, but Kobe still goes first in my book.

b@llhog24
09-14-2012, 08:12 PM
You're kind of a douche by nature, aren't you?

I'll take that as a compliment. :)


Love's definitely still the best power forward in the league, but Kobe still goes first in my book.

Whatever floats your boat man.

mrblisterdundee
09-14-2012, 08:16 PM
I'll take that as a compliment. :)



Whatever floats your boat man.

What floats my boat is that in a close game, Kobe's team will still win, specifically because they have Kobe to finish things out.

b@llhog24
09-14-2012, 08:18 PM
PSD is getting dumber.

Melo's going to go next baby! :dance:

b@llhog24
09-14-2012, 08:20 PM
What floats my boat is that in a close game, Kobe's team will still win, specifically because they have Kobe to finish things out.

That's because he has teammates than can consistently make the game close while he's busy chucking away shots. Plus Love is a good clutch player as well so I don't get your argument.

Swashcuff
09-14-2012, 08:35 PM
I Understand what your saying and agree with you 75%..How i see and and i think a few others is yes it is a team sport and if you have a horrible supporting cast you cant win in today's league.. But if you look at every player in the top 10 Love is the only 1 who didn't even come close to a playoff spot. I have relaxed my view after reading a few post but still feel he is closer to a top 15 and not a top 5..

Cheers then I'm glad you're coming around. I can certainly respect.

Chronz
09-14-2012, 08:44 PM
true.
Stats and team success disagree, Ill take that over your flawed opinion


actually when you turn 30, you are on the wrong side of 30.
True


Kobe>wade always.
Then why wasnt he?


see how easy this is.
Well yea, nothing hard about being wrong.

jerellh528
09-14-2012, 09:14 PM
Stats and team success disagree, Ill take that over your flawed opinion


True


Then why wasnt he?


Well yea, nothing hard about being wrong.

you are so right man. I change my vote to wade! OMG WADE DA BEST EVAZZ!:bang:

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-14-2012, 09:17 PM
So does Black Mamba have this thing wrapped up already or no? ;)

still1ballin
09-14-2012, 09:34 PM
I voted Kobe because he has 5 rings :)

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-14-2012, 09:44 PM
I voted Kobe because he will have 6 rings :)

:clap:

Chronz
09-14-2012, 09:59 PM
you are so right man. I change my vote to wade! OMG WADE DA BEST EVAZZ!:bang:

Lose the emoticon

Now thats a post

Dade County
09-14-2012, 10:01 PM
Kobe loyalist F'ed up this entire poll structure.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-14-2012, 10:10 PM
Kobe loyalist F'ed up this entire poll structure.

:dance: You're Welcome! :dance:

still1ballin
09-14-2012, 10:11 PM
Kobe loyalist F'ed up this entire poll structure.

u upset bro?

jericho
09-14-2012, 10:15 PM
I voted Kobe because he has 5 rings :)

i voted for kobe but what does 5 rings have to do with these past yr???? :confused:

still1ballin
09-14-2012, 10:20 PM
i voted for kobe but what does 5 rings have to do with these past yr???? :confused:

He is the black mamba

naps
09-14-2012, 10:24 PM
Kobe loyalist F'ed up this entire poll structure.

Imagine where he would rank if he and Love switch cities.

beasted86
09-14-2012, 11:12 PM
Kevin Love is overrated. But I will not be surprised if PSD somehow votes him higher than he should be.

There always seems to be some excuse people have for why his team doesn't do better. Wolves are in the Western Conference, he plays out of position at Center, Al Jefferson is in his way, He doesn't play enough minutes, his team is too young, McHale is a bad coach, Rambis is a bad coach, Ricky Rubio got injured, Kahn!!!!!

It's like, just stop it already. Enough is enough at some point. Dwyane Wade led a cast of total scrubs to a 5th seed in 08-09. Yahkouba Diawara started at SF for over 25 games of the season. If you think Joel Anthony is bad now, imagine 3-4 years ago. Him and a washed up Jamaal Magloire started over half the season.

And before people say nobody ever said Love is better than Wade... basically you are right now. You are putting him in top 5 player contention and he can't even lead his team to .500. He is overrated plain and simple.

Even if he doesn't make the playoffs, there's no excuse teams like the Suns and Rockets consistently over the past couple years finish 5-10 games ahead of the Wolves and they aren't making the playoffs either... and they don't have anybody as good as Love.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-14-2012, 11:13 PM
#6 player rankings thread is going to be the best yet. :laugh2:

JNoel
09-14-2012, 11:21 PM
I voted LeBron because he will have 2 rings :)

Fixed.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-14-2012, 11:26 PM
56 votes and counting.



You're Welcome. :dance:


Please convince me how Kobe is the 5th best player right now.

DR_1
09-14-2012, 11:40 PM
#6 player rankings thread is going to be the best yet. :laugh2:

Bulls fans vs Heat fans SMACKDOWN EDITION!!!

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-14-2012, 11:48 PM
Please convince me how Kobe is the 5th best player right now.

LeBron - 1 ring, thus the 1st best player


Kobe - 5 rings, thus the 5th best player

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-14-2012, 11:54 PM
LeBron - 1 ring, thus the 1st best player


Kobe - 5 rings, thus the 5th best player

Because rings should obviously decide how good a player is:rolleyes:

seikou8
09-14-2012, 11:55 PM
LeBron - 1 ring, thus the 1st best player


Kobe - 5 rings, thus the 5th best player

man the ring argument is laughable ahhh lakers fans

Corey
09-14-2012, 11:56 PM
Kobe fans sure came in full force.

jericho
09-14-2012, 11:57 PM
Kevin Love is overrated. But I will not be surprised if PSD somehow votes him higher than he should be.

There always seems to be some excuse people have for why his team doesn't do better. Wolves are in the Western Conference, he plays out of position at Center, Al Jefferson is in his way, He doesn't play enough minutes, his team is too young, McHale is a bad coach, Rambis is a bad coach, Ricky Rubio got injured, Kahn!!!!!

It's like, just stop it already. Enough is enough at some point. Dwyane Wade led a cast of total scrubs to a 5th seed in 08-09. Yahkouba Diawara started at SF for over 25 games of the season. If you think Joel Anthony is bad now, imagine 3-4 years ago. Him and a washed up Jamaal Magloire started over half the season.

And before people say nobody ever said Love is better than Wade... basically you are right now. You are putting him in top 5 player contention and he can't even lead his team to .500. He is overrated plain and simple.

Even if he doesn't make the playoffs, there's no excuse teams like the Suns and Rockets consistently over the past couple years finish 5-10 games ahead of the Wolves and they aren't making the playoffs either... and they don't have anybody as good as Love.

Bad example wade also led the heat to 1 of there worst record that's why they drafted Beasley oh and I forgot to mention that he also faked an injury that yr cuz he didn't want to be related to that team lol sorry had to do it

Kashmir13579
09-14-2012, 11:58 PM
Out of the players listed, Kevin Love should go here. Out of the players not listed, Dwade.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-14-2012, 11:59 PM
Wow, none of you guys got the joke. :laugh2:

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-15-2012, 12:05 AM
Wow, none of you guys got the joke. :laugh2:

Still doesn't take away the fact that no one in here was made a solid point for why Kobe should go here.

jerellh528
09-15-2012, 12:13 AM
Still doesn't take away the fact that no one in here was made a solid point for why Kobe should go here.

so why do you think wade is # 5 in the league and kobe is borderline 10? im waiting

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 12:20 AM
Still doesn't take away the fact that no one in here was made a solid point for why Kobe should go here.

To be honest, I can't. I don't even think he's top 10. I mean c'mon, he shot 43% from the field and barely above 30% from 3 pt range. He chucked his way all season, which is why he wasn't even in the conversation of winning the scoring title. Let's be real, he should've have even been on this poll in the first place.

b@llhog24
09-15-2012, 12:27 AM
wow, none of you guys got the joke. :laugh2:

still doesn't take away the fact that no one in here was made a solid point for why kobe should go here.

+1.

justinnum1
09-15-2012, 12:29 AM
To be honest, I can't. I don't even think he's top 10. I mean c'mon, he shot 43% from the field and barely above 30% from 3 pt range. He chucked his way all season, which is why he wasn't even in the conversation of winning the scoring title. Let's be real, he should've have even been on this poll in the first place.

If he was top 10 the lakers would have won more than 1 game vs okc.




































;)

BklynKnicks3
09-15-2012, 12:31 AM
You claim people voting for love ont know basketball or are biased and then post this? Ridiculous. Kevin Love has a very solid offensive game with 26ppg on pretty good ts% (more points than melo on better shooting %). He has great range for a big man and also comes down with offensive boards giving his team extra opportunities. You say he scores on garbage points because his team sucks? Many players play on bad teams but none of them have the same statistical dominance of love, why is that? Also since hes on such a bad team other teams can put more focus on him than other players. All of the defenses focus is on love and yet he still finds ways to score. Im not saying hes guaranteed better than melo, kobe, wade but there is no doubt he is in the conversation at this point...

these ts stats all mean nothign i seen love play plenty he doesnt have a supertstars game

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-15-2012, 12:39 AM
so why do you think wade is # 5 in the league and kobe is borderline 10? im waiting

Wade was a far superior defensive player than Kobe last season. Kobe's defense has been on the decline for a few seasons now and Wade's D is at the best of his career. Wade had a better FG%, PER, TS%, eFG%,TRB%, AST%, STL%, BLK %, TOV % and had higher WS than Kobe.

Dade County
09-15-2012, 12:46 AM
To be honest, I can't. I don't even think he's top 10. I mean c'mon, he shot 43% from the field and barely above 30% from 3 pt range. He chucked his way all season, which is why he wasn't even in the conversation of winning the scoring title. Let's be real, he should've have even been on this poll in the first place.

OK, you are a real person, I just thought you was a computer program modified to "F" with people... lmao lol

No... but seriously, props for stating this :clap:

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 12:58 AM
OK, you are a real person, I just thought you was a computer program modified to "F" with people... lmao lol

No... but seriously, props for stating this :clap:

Actually......I am Fing with y'all. :laugh2:


#kb-pau-dh2012system ;)

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 01:02 AM
Btw, forgot to add the fact that Kobe is a rapist. No way he should be Top 5.

Cal827
09-15-2012, 01:25 AM
Actually......I am Fing with y'all. :laugh2:


#kb-pau-dh2012system ;)

:laugh:

Dade County
09-15-2012, 01:50 AM
just to crazy

MiamiBoy77
09-15-2012, 07:38 AM
Lol that Wades not even on the list

Swashcuff
09-15-2012, 08:16 AM
Kevin Love is overrated. But I will not be surprised if PSD somehow votes him higher than he should be.

There always seems to be some excuse people have for why his team doesn't do better. Wolves are in the Western Conference, he plays out of position at Center, Al Jefferson is in his way, He doesn't play enough minutes, his team is too young, McHale is a bad coach, Rambis is a bad coach, Ricky Rubio got injured, Kahn!!!!!

It's like, just stop it already. Enough is enough at some point. Dwyane Wade led a cast of total scrubs to a 5th seed in 08-09. Yahkouba Diawara started at SF for over 25 games of the season. If you think Joel Anthony is bad now, imagine 3-4 years ago. Him and a washed up Jamaal Magloire started over half the season.

And before people say nobody ever said Love is better than Wade... basically you are right now. You are putting him in top 5 player contention and he can't even lead his team to .500. He is overrated plain and simple.

Even if he doesn't make the playoffs, there's no excuse teams like the Suns and Rockets consistently over the past couple years finish 5-10 games ahead of the Wolves and they aren't making the playoffs either... and they don't have anybody as good as Love.

.243 W%

That's what a 10-41 is. That's what those same Heat did in the EAST when Wade played the prior season. He faced the same kind of adversity that season with his supporting cast that Love has faced every year with the Wolves. What's your excuse? Injury? Love has played injured. Lack of support? Kevin Love laughs at that notion. What is it?

The following year was Dwyane Wade's best season of his entire career he'll never be able to top that. We have yet to see the best of Kevin Love. How can we compare one of the greatest peaks (on another forum he was voted as having the 18th highest peak in the history of the game) ever to Kevin Love's first 4 seasons? That's idiotic. Matter of a fact beyond idiotic.

Do you even watch basketball outside of Miami? Seriously? Because if you did ignorant comments like there is no excuse for the Suns and Rockets to finish ahead of the Wolves you're being ignorantly mistaken. Every single time you post about Kevin Love it amazes me. One would think that after all this time you would be able to say something that actually made sense.

What's foolish when Love makes the post season and starts winning he'll still be chastised because of the fact that he didn't beat the Thunder or the Clippers or the Lakers or some crap. All this basically shows is how incapable you guys are at gauging the value of a INDIVIDUAL in a team sport.

nycericanguy
09-15-2012, 11:48 AM
People bringing up that Kobe or Garnett might have missed the playoffs once or twice in their career, to me there's a big difference to me between a guy that misses the playoffs by a few games one or two seasons, and a guy that is always on one of the worst teams in the NBA like Love.

Basketball is a team sport yes, but its alot easier to put up big numbers when you're playing games that don't matter.

Chronz
09-15-2012, 12:19 PM
People bringing up that Kobe or Garnett might have missed the playoffs once or twice in their career, to me there's a big difference to me between a guy that misses the playoffs by a few games one or two seasons, and a guy that is always on one of the worst teams in the NBA like Love.

Basketball is a team sport yes, but its alot easier to put up big numbers when you're playing games that don't matter.
Love just got here tho. And the fact remains, if player as good as Kobe/KG/Wilt/KAJ can all miss the playoffs then you should never expect more from a lesser player in Love.

ball4reel
09-15-2012, 12:49 PM
Kevin Love is overrated. But I will not be surprised if PSD somehow votes him higher than he should be.

There always seems to be some excuse people have for why his team doesn't do better. Wolves are in the Western Conference, he plays out of position at Center, Al Jefferson is in his way, He doesn't play enough minutes, his team is too young, McHale is a bad coach, Rambis is a bad coach, Ricky Rubio got injured, Kahn!!!!!

It's like, just stop it already. Enough is enough at some point. Dwyane Wade led a cast of total scrubs to a 5th seed in 08-09. Yahkouba Diawara started at SF for over 25 games of the season. If you think Joel Anthony is bad now, imagine 3-4 years ago. Him and a washed up Jamaal Magloire started over half the season..

And before people say nobody ever said Love is better than Wade... basically you are right now. You are putting him in top 5 player contention and he can't even lead his team to .500. He is overrated plain and simple.

Even if he doesn't make the playoffs, there's no excuse teams like the Suns and Rockets consistently over the past couple years finish 5-10 games ahead of the Wolves and they aren't making the playoffs either... and they don't have anybody as good as Love.

:clap:

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 01:32 PM
So..are we ready to move on and vote for D.Rose next? :)

justinnum1
09-15-2012, 01:37 PM
So..are we ready to move on and vote for D.Rose next? :)

Your trolling skills are slacking bro. What happened?

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-15-2012, 01:44 PM
Your trolling skills are slacking bro. What happened?

Offseason. :sigh:

TheRunKiller
09-15-2012, 02:03 PM
would Paul still be ahead of rose if he never got hurt?

Figures no one could come up with an answer. ****ing homers no one votes on your stupid little polls, they don't mean ****.

TheRunKiller
09-15-2012, 02:04 PM
perfect example kevin love 24 votes and carmelo 5 LMAO! ****ing homers

Swashcuff
09-15-2012, 02:51 PM
perfect example kevin love 24 votes and carmelo 5 LMAO! ****ing homers

Homers? WTF are you talking about? There are like 10 Wolves fans (well 9 now that Cfrey has been permabanned) on PSD as compared to what 500 Knicks fans? C'mon. Love is plain and simple better than Melo.

JordansBulls
09-15-2012, 02:55 PM
Wade fell too low.

nycericanguy
09-15-2012, 04:07 PM
Love just got here tho. And the fact remains, if player as good as Kobe/KG/Wilt/KAJ can all miss the playoffs then you should never expect more from a lesser player in Love.

ehh agree to disagree, but the guys you mentioned have never missed the playoffs 4 straight years on teams with a 26% winning percentage.

I think a guy like Dirk got alot of respect when he won the title and then was voted the #1 PF. Same kinda thing applies to Love for me.

And no I was not implying that David Lee is on Love's level earlier as many keep trying to make it seem. But there is a parallel there between those guys putting up huge numbers in basically meaningless games. We've yet to see either of those guys step on the court of a playoff game.

and finally, its not like I'm saying Love is some horrible player, I probably still have him top 10. But I disagree with putting him top 5 alongside the elite of the elite, guys that have won. I just can't put him there yet.

beasted86
09-15-2012, 04:25 PM
.243 W%

That's what a 10-41 is. That's what those same Heat did in the EAST when Wade played the prior season. He faced the same kind of adversity that season with his supporting cast that Love has faced every year with the Wolves. What's your excuse? Injury? Love has played injured. Lack of support? Kevin Love laughs at that notion. What is it?

The following year was Dwyane Wade's best season of his entire career he'll never be able to top that. We have yet to see the best of Kevin Love. How can we compare one of the greatest peaks (on another forum he was voted as having the 18th highest peak in the history of the game) ever to Kevin Love's first 4 seasons? That's idiotic. Matter of a fact beyond idiotic.

Do you even watch basketball outside of Miami? Seriously? Because if you did ignorant comments like there is no excuse for the Suns and Rockets to finish ahead of the Wolves you're being ignorantly mistaken. Every single time you post about Kevin Love it amazes me. One would think that after all this time you would be able to say something that actually made sense.

What's foolish when Love makes the post season and starts winning he'll still be chastised because of the fact that he didn't beat the Thunder or the Clippers or the Lakers or some crap. All this basically shows is how incapable you guys are at gauging the value of a INDIVIDUAL in a team sport.

I am gauging him on an individual level. On an individual level he doesn't have the ability to create shots when his team really needs it the most and close out games. He doesn't have the ability to come up with monster defensive stops when his team needs it either to close out games. That's what separates true top 5 players.... on an individual level.... and guys like Kevin Love who are very good, but just not there yet. I just don't see that level of leadership or elite ability out of him yet the few times I've watched him.

To be honest I don't watch a whole lot of Wolves games start to finish. It's usually in between watching other games I might switch the league pass and catch some of the Wolves play. But overall I don't see what's top 5 about him, and IMO winning does count for something. I have him top 10, but not top 5. There is only so far stats can carry you when your team is not only bad, but actually terrible. The Wolves have been plain terrible... no hate at all. And when you talk about a team being terrible Love is obviously part of that team, and supposedly their best player and leader.

And your comparison of Love being injured and Wade being injured was a joke at best.

beasted86
09-15-2012, 04:28 PM
And to add on about the winning part... a player can be winning and putting up good stats and still not be a top 5 player ever... see Carmelo Anthony. He's consistently been a 6-12 player his entire career.

Love doesn't have the play on both sides or the leadership or simply even plain offensive dominance to be a top 5 player yet. I have him as 9th personally.

Swashcuff
09-15-2012, 04:43 PM
I am gauging him on an individual level. On an individual level he doesn't have the ability to create shots when his team really needs it the most and close out games. He doesn't have the ability to come up with monster defensive stops when his team needs it either to close out games. That's what separates true top 5 players.... on an individual level.... and guys like Kevin Love who are very good, but just not there yet. I just don't see that level of leadership or elite ability out of him yet the few times I've watched him.

To be honest I don't watch a whole lot of Wolves games start to finish. It's usually in between watching other games I might switch the league pass and catch some of the Wolves play. But overall I don't see what's top 5 about him, and IMO winning does count for something. I have him top 10, but not top 5. There is only so far stats can carry you when your team is not only bad, but actually terrible. The Wolves have been plain terrible... no hate at all. And when you talk about a team being terrible Love is obviously part of that team, and supposedly their best player and leader.

And your comparison of Love being injured and Wade being injured was a joke at best.

That's where I stopped reading. The biggest load of horse **** I've read in this entire thread. Kevin Love was one of the most clutch players in the NBA last season routinely leading his team down the stretch win or lose he was always coming up with big plays whether it be making a crucial 3 pt shot, grabbing an offensive rebounding and putting it back whatever.

When you start an argument like that is shows your utter incompetence to be able to gauge any player on an individual level.

WATCH THE TEAMS PLAY before spewing such garbage.

Swashcuff
09-15-2012, 04:44 PM
Anyway this was the same guy that said Andre Iguodala is regressing as a player and he blames it on a lack of work ethic so I really don't think he's fit to understand the worth of any opposing players. The ridiculous posts never seem to end from him :pity:

beasted86
09-15-2012, 05:10 PM
Anyway this was the same guy that said Andre Iguodala is regressing as a player and he blames it on a lack of work ethic so I really don't think he's fit to understand the worth of any opposing players. The ridiculous posts never seem to end from him :pity:

If you think Igoudala has been improving these past couple seasons, you are in the minority. That's all I have to say about that.

The only reason the Sixers got a player as good as Bynum in return is because Orlando knew he wouldn't re-sign.

Swashcuff
09-15-2012, 05:13 PM
If you think Igoudala has been improving these past couple seasons, you are in the minority. That's all I have to say about that.

The only reason the Sixers got a player as good as Bynum in return is because Orlando knew he wouldn't re-sign.

Dude start a thread. Only an utter and complete idiot who knows absolutely NOTHING about basketball would say Andre Iguodala is not improving.

An

I
D
I
O
T

Anyone who watches half a second of Andre Iguodala play knows he has improved leaps and bounds as a player. His coaches, team USA coaches, teammates and opposing players have all spoken of how far he has come as a player. The only ones who think he isn't getting better are idiots who know not of what they speak.

Chronz
09-15-2012, 05:15 PM
ehh agree to disagree, but the guys you mentioned have never missed the playoffs 4 straight years on teams with a 26% winning percentage.
Why would that matter if its been proven you can be as good as they are and still miss the playoffs? Love had his best season but that doesnt compare to how great some of these guys were when they missed the playoffs, so why would we expect better results from an inferior player? And why would I go back 4 years when Love has only become the player he is anyways?


I think a guy like Dirk got alot of respect when he won the title and then was voted the #1 PF. Same kinda thing applies to Love for me.
Winning counts, I dont think anyone has disagreed with you on that, and I do have Dirk ahead of Love simply because we havent seen him in the playoffs. Its an odd position, in a way Im doing exactly what your doing, which is punishing him for not making the playoffs. But Im open to him being the best and I definitely wouldn't expect him to garner automatic playoff births to be one of the best in the league overall.



And no I was not implying that David Lee is on Love's level earlier as many keep trying to make it seem. But there is a parallel there between those guys putting up huge numbers in basically meaningless games. We've yet to see either of those guys step on the court of a playoff game.
I dont see the parallel, you can bring up lots of statistical examples that would prove meaningless.


and finally, its not like I'm saying Love is some horrible player, I probably still have him top 10. But I disagree with putting him top 5 alongside the elite of the elite, guys that have won. I just can't put him there yet
I dont know where he ranks, Im just taking offense to the playoff argument.

beasted86
09-15-2012, 05:15 PM
That's where I stopped reading. The biggest load of horse **** I've read in this entire thread. Kevin Love was one of the most clutch players in the NBA last season routinely leading his team down the stretch win or lose he was always coming up with big plays whether it be making a crucial 3 pt shot, grabbing an offensive rebounding and putting it back whatever.

When you start an argument like that is shows your utter incompetence to be able to gauge any player on an individual level.

WATCH THE TEAMS PLAY before spewing such garbage.

"One of the most clutch players" consistently keeps losing and losing, and losing.... you need to come to grips with it and deal with it that Love is not as good as you think he is.

Most analysts agree, most of PSD agrees, most NBA fans in general agree... except for you stat nerds who log online to punch angry words into your mom's laptop on PSD for the attention.

Swashcuff
09-15-2012, 05:22 PM
"One of the most clutch players" consistently keeps losing and losing, and losing.... you need to come to grips with it and deal with it that Love is not as good as you think he is.

Most analysts agree, most of PSD agrees, most NBA fans in general agree... except for you stat nerds who log online to punch angry words into your mom's laptop on PSD for the attention.

Most of PSD agrees with me so I must be a genius :dance:

:rolleyes:

In case you haven't realized you're the one who is being completely thrashed in the other thread by those same PSD posters that "agree" with you.

Please show me where the most analysts agree with you. Also most of the analysts are stats nerds who punches words into their moms laptops.

You can call me a nerd all you want. I'm PSDs proudest nerd. I'm a nerdy 40 year old virgin that comes to PSD to act like I know everything but really and truly I'm lonely and keep trying to come up with new ways to commit suicide. :D

justinnum1
09-15-2012, 05:22 PM
:catfight:

beasted86
09-15-2012, 05:25 PM
You can call me a nerd all you want. I'm PSDs proudest nerd. I'm a nerdy 40 year old virgin that comes to PSD to act like I know everything but really and truly I'm lonely and keep trying to come up with new ways to commit suicide.

My new sig.

justinnum1
09-15-2012, 06:14 PM
My new sig.

that sig is hilarious :laugh:

Swashcuff
09-16-2012, 08:11 AM
My new sig.

You're welcome.

Maybe I should add a bit more since I'm such a nerd. I'll give you my whole life story one day. Oh and I never kissed a girl either I'm the worlds biggest loser.

Kashmir13579
09-16-2012, 08:59 AM
Anyway this was the same guy that said Andre Iguodala is regressing as a player and he blames it on a lack of work ethic so I really don't think he's fit to understand the worth of any opposing players. The ridiculous posts never seem to end from him :pity:

Agreed.

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-16-2012, 09:50 AM
ok throw kobe in, next up, DWYANEEEEEEEEEEEEE WADDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

knickerbockerny
09-16-2012, 09:55 AM
Where the hell is Wade? The voting system is so freaking flawed, there should be a wider range of players to vote for per round. Why do we have to wait for Rose to get off the board before voting for another point guard. I believe Rondo had a better overall season than the injured Rose.

And I find it hard to believe people have voted Dwight Howard the third best player in the league. The lack of centers in the league has caused fans to truly overrate every good center out.

b@llhog24
09-16-2012, 03:08 PM
Where the hell is Wade? The voting system is so freaking flawed, there should be a wider range of players to vote for per round. Why do we have to wait for Rose to get off the board before voting for another point guard. I believe Rondo had a better overall season than the injured Rose.

And I find it hard to believe people have voted Dwight Howard the third best player in the league. The lack of centers in the league has caused fans to truly overrate every good center out.

:yawn: