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ChiTownPacerFan
09-13-2012, 06:02 PM
If Miguel Cabrera wins the triple crown, is Mike Trout still the AL MVP? I know the sabermetrics people are ready to say "Yes, of course! Are you kidding me? Rabble, rabble, rabble! Don't you know that Trout's WAR is 600% higher than Jesus's!"

I understand all that, but nobody has won the triple crown in 45 years. I guess I'm asking if that feat essentially guarantees a player the MVP.

AI
09-13-2012, 06:03 PM
Yes, Trout's the MVP.

Havoc Wreaker
09-13-2012, 06:11 PM
I think the voting committee would circle jerk to a triple crown and Miggy would get the MVP.

Also, after today's game, Trout's WAR is actually 975% higher than Jesus's. He needs to rob another HR and hit a triple in his next game to catch Chuck Norri's all time record.

xnick5757
09-13-2012, 06:12 PM
If Miguel Cabrera wins the triple crown, is Mike Trout still the AL MVP? I know the sabermetrics people are ready to say "Yes, of course! Are you kidding me? Rabble, rabble, rabble! Don't you know that Trout's WAR is 600% higher than Jesus's!"

I understand all that, but nobody has won the triple crown in 45 years. I guess I'm asking if that feat essentially guarantees a player the MVP.

trout is the MVP no matter what

ATL#22
09-13-2012, 06:21 PM
He would still be the better player. Of course it will probably depend on which team makes the playoffs

Fly
09-13-2012, 06:29 PM
Verlander won the triple crown last year, but you probably meant to say the hitting triple crown. Granted, the triple crown really isn't that impressive as RBIs are as useful as a solar powered flashlight. Trout's still the MVP.

LASportsFan1996
09-13-2012, 06:35 PM
No, **** Trout & the Angels

Oldmantrash
09-13-2012, 06:48 PM
F war, if Cabrera wins the triple crown, he deserves MVP.

If the Tigers make the playoffs, and Angels don't then he deserves it anyway.

Fly
09-13-2012, 06:49 PM
F war, if Cabrera wins the triple crown, he deserves MVP.

If the Tigers make the playoffs, and Angels don't then he deserves it anyway.

No.

ChiTownPacerFan
09-13-2012, 06:54 PM
I think the voting committee would circle jerk to a triple crown and Miggy would get the MVP.

Also, after today's game, Trout's WAR is actually 975% higher than Jesus's. He needs to rob another HR and hit a triple in his next game to catch Chuck Norri's all time record.

This was kind of my thinking as well.

sexicano31
09-13-2012, 07:43 PM
F war, if Cabrera wins the triple crown, he deserves MVP.

If the Tigers make the playoffs, and Angels don't then he deserves it anyway.

Because we should totally give him credit for all the batters that reach base in front of him

Burkey3472
09-13-2012, 07:45 PM
Trout would still deserve the MVP but my fear is voters would run to vote for Miggy if he did have this achievement. So sad.

rkelly7
09-13-2012, 07:50 PM
If Miggy wins the triple crown, he WILL win MVP, whether you like it or not.

Toxeryll
09-13-2012, 07:58 PM
If Miggy wins the triple crown, he WILL win MVP, whether you like it or not.

agreed

Pinstripe pride
09-14-2012, 09:21 AM
cabrera will win the MVP if he wins the triple crown

Yankees90.
09-14-2012, 05:06 PM
I think the voting committee would circle jerk to a triple crown and Miggy would get the MVP.

Also, after today's game, Trout's WAR is actually 975% higher than Jesus's. He needs to rob another HR and hit a triple in his next game to catch Chuck Norri's all time record.

Whoa!
Are you trying to get us all killed?!

1903
09-14-2012, 05:07 PM
Won't matter. Jeter is winning MVP because he is handsome.

Yankees90.
09-14-2012, 05:09 PM
Won't matter. Jeter is winning MVP because he is handsome.

:nod:


P.S. I got the sudden urge to eat a banana

MetsFanatic19
09-14-2012, 07:20 PM
:nod:


P.S. I got the sudden urge to eat a banana

Weirdo...

MetsFanatic19
09-14-2012, 07:21 PM
Miggy will get it if he wins the triple crown but I don't think he will, thus making Trout le MVP.

Jeffy25
09-16-2012, 07:45 PM
If Miguel Cabrera wins the triple crown, is Mike Trout still the AL MVP? I know the sabermetrics people are ready to say "Yes, of course! Are you kidding me? Rabble, rabble, rabble! Don't you know that Trout's WAR is 600% higher than Jesus's!"

I understand all that, but nobody has won the triple crown in 45 years. I guess I'm asking if that feat essentially guarantees a player the MVP.

There is absolutely zero reason that it should

1-800-STFU
09-17-2012, 07:16 AM
Rabble rabble rabble

"Ace"ves
09-17-2012, 06:59 PM
There is absolutely zero reason that it should

You mean besides the reason that they have a high BA, HR, and RBI total? I know, BA means nothing only wOBA does. Except, getting hits assists in moving baserunners over/driving them in a lot more than fewer hits and more walks. High homerun & RBI totals are often labeled as "useless stats". However, in my mind these are still numbers that occurred. One can claim that "the wind + ballpark = homerun" or "5 more baserunners than competitor = RBI advantage", but at the end of the day the player's performance at any given instance is their performance. Results are results. Now do I believe in stats that determine a player's ability over results, to an extent. I believe looking at both stats are important.

So to rebuttal your statement, there is a reason it should. Is it the majority reason a player should? No, but discrediting results is overrated.

Overall I'm sure your stance is Trout over Miggy. If this is true, I completely agree because Trout brings an outstanding defense that we don't see in offensively productive players anymore... and in the shorter time he has been up this year, he has the ability to create runs through getting on base and his baserunning skills (though he is statistically close to Miggy, which i have trouble understanding).

Fly
09-17-2012, 07:09 PM
Rabble rabble rabble

:love:

canefandynasty
09-18-2012, 10:11 PM
Has a clear RBI and AVG lead at the most. Just need 2 more HRs to catch up to Hamilton for the Triple Crown. Will he do it?

He's definitely MVP by the way, whether Triple Crown or not.

strahinjak
09-18-2012, 10:12 PM
Has a clear RBI and AVG lead at the most. Just need 2 more HRs to catch up to Hamilton for the Triple Crown. Will he do it?

He's definitely MVP by the way, whether Triple Crown or not.

Not even close.

StriveGreatness
09-18-2012, 10:14 PM
Just rename this thread "WAR circle jerk"

sexicano31
09-18-2012, 10:19 PM
Has a clear RBI and AVG lead at the most. Just need 2 more HRs to catch up to Hamilton for the Triple Crown. Will he do it?

He's definitely MVP by the way, whether Triple Crown or not.

Nope

And the only way he can win it is if he wins the TC. Even then the voters will have to pick between two narratives: Give the MVP to a guy who got the triple crown, or give the MVP to a 21 year old rookie. If he does win the TC, the award wont be by a landslide.

But the fact is that giving it to him because of the TC is ****ing stupid. Who the **** cares about RBI

metswon69
09-18-2012, 10:22 PM
Yeah well because people still don't get it, Trout is the best player in the league.

Fangraphs WAR: Trout 9.3, Cabrera 6.3

BB Reference WAR: Trout 10.2, Cabrera 6.7

Fielding and baserunning count for something...

Stress
09-18-2012, 10:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BT1wPAlfQU

keymax
09-18-2012, 10:30 PM
I hope he gets the triple crown. And say what you want about WAR, RBIs not being significant at all and so on.
Nobody can deny that seeing somebody accomplish something not done since Yaz is absolutely amazing.

sexicano31
09-18-2012, 10:32 PM
I hope he gets the triple crown. And say what you want about WAR, RBIs not being significant at all and so on.
Nobody can deny that seeing somebody accomplish something not done since Yaz is absolutely amazing.

Sure its cool, but RBI literally mean dick. If he didnt have X amount of guys on in front of him then he wouldnt get(potentially) the triple crown. We should give him 2/3 of the triple crown with the other 1/3 going to his team

keymax
09-18-2012, 10:43 PM
Sure its cool, but RBI literally mean dick. If he didnt have X amount of guys on in front of him then he wouldnt get(potentially) the triple crown. We should give him 2/3 of the triple crown with the other 1/3 going to his team


No it's a bad stat to compare two guys but RBI do have merit. According to every rate state a 2 out single with no one one is as valuable as the same thing with RISP. Obviously that is not true at all. To completely dismiss RBI is wrong, because it shows you a snapshot of timely hitting which is key to winning ballgames.

sexicano31
09-18-2012, 10:45 PM
No it's a bad stat to compare two guys but RBI do have merit. According to every rate state a 2 out single with no one one is as valuable as the same thing with RISP. Obviously that is not true at all. To completely dismiss RBI is wrong, because it shows you a snapshot of timely hitting which is key to winning ballgames.

No it shows you nothing. RBI mean NOTHING when judging a player. If he didnt have those guys on base, then he wouldnt have the opportunities. And if they do show you a snapshot of timely hitting, then other players should be punished for not having as many runners on? Stop it.

SB75
09-18-2012, 10:46 PM
MVP: Most Valuable Player


Honor the name of the award. Cabrera is the most valuable player to his team in baseball this year. Best player? I think it's Miggy, but that's debatable, so if you think Trout, no biggie. But Trout is not the most valuable player. Yes defense should count for something! So should changing to a position you have not played in years without complaining about it!

sexicano31
09-18-2012, 10:49 PM
MVP: Most Valuable Player


Honor the name of the award. Cabrera is the most valuable player to his team in baseball this year. Bets player? I think it's Miggy, but that's debatable. Trout is not the most valuable player. Yes defense should count for something! So should changing to a position you have not played in years without complaining about it!

So now its about intangibles, eh? Trout is comparable this year by looking at simple stats(OPS). Factor in his superior defense at a very tough position(CF) and his superior baserunning and Trout is MVP

rocket
09-18-2012, 11:01 PM
Yeah well because people still don't get it, Trout is the best player in the league.

Fangraphs WAR: Trout 9.3, Cabrera 6.3

BB Reference WAR: Trout 10.2, Cabrera 6.7

Fielding and baserunning count for something...

So how did WAR factor into last years MVP? It didn't.

papipapsmanny
09-18-2012, 11:02 PM
you know I use WAR a lot but Cabrera is the MVP.

People have to keep in mind that WAR is in context of the specific position.

Hence Ellsbury's 9.4 WAR last year because CF isn't exactly a loaded position.

I just feel like If they switched teams the Angels would be a better team with Cabrera and without Trout

Oh and i wouldn't care who won it between the two both deserve it, just saying who I would vote for

bulldog312
09-18-2012, 11:05 PM
I know, BA means nothing only wOBA does. Except, getting hits assists in moving baserunners over/driving them in a lot more than fewer hits and more walks.

Someone doesn't know what wOBA is...

FortDetroit
09-18-2012, 11:05 PM
hes not going to win the MVP but cabrera is so ****ing good :lift:

rocket
09-18-2012, 11:05 PM
So now its about intangibles, eh? Trout is comparable this year by looking at simple stats(OPS). Factor in his superior defense at a very tough position(CF) and his superior baserunning and Trout is MVP

the mvp voters aren't going to look at which player has better baserunning, they are going to look into the defense obviously but cabby is holding his own at 3rd. (Yes Trouts still a better fielder)

Even though Trout is having the better season, Miguels team is in the playoff race, and I think the voters will vote for Cabby.

1908_Cubs
09-18-2012, 11:06 PM
So how did WAR factor into last years MVP? It didn't.

So, because voters don't use WAR as a barometer (just like, based on the number of GG's Derek Jeter has, they base their award voting on nothing more than whatever-the-****-they-feel-like), we shouldn't use it to describe the best player in the league? Or bring it up in a discussion of AL MVP?

Mike Trout's been the best player in the AL this year.

rocket
09-18-2012, 11:07 PM
So, because voters don't use WAR as a barometer (just like, based on the number of GG's Derek Jeter has, they base their award voting on nothing more than whatever-the-****-they-feel-like), we shouldn't use it to describe the best player in the league? Or bring it up in a discussion of AL MVP?

Mike Trout's been the best player in the AL this year.

I don't think I ever said that Trout isn't having the better season.

1908_Cubs
09-18-2012, 11:10 PM
the mvp voters aren't going to look at which player has better baserunning, they are going to look into the defense obviously but cabby is holding his own at 3rd. (Yes Trouts still a better fielder)

Even though Trout is having the better season, Miguels team is in the playoff race, and I think the voters will vote for Cabby.

The dudes a -9.4 UZR on the seasons. According to fangraphs FLD (which is a fielding statistic which adds up all your UZR all season) he's the worst fielding 3b in the league, and in the bottom 10 in the entire LEAGUE. Just...let that sink in. He's been among the 10 worst fielding players....in the whole ****ing league. When is this "holding your own"?

My mom's a better fielder than Miguel Cabrera.

SB75
09-18-2012, 11:10 PM
So now its about intangibles, eh? Trout is comparable this year by looking at simple stats(OPS). Factor in his superior defense at a very tough position(CF) and his superior baserunning and Trout is MVP

It's always been about intagibles as well as on the field play. Where have you been?Miggy has been asked to do more as well as change positions and his ops is 50+ points higher. If you are going to make defense such a huge part of the argument then you have to go back through history and ex off so many players that the award is rarely fairly given.

It's not the best player award as so many think should get it, but the MVP!

sexicano31
09-18-2012, 11:12 PM
It's always been about intagibles as well as on the field play. Where have you been?Miggy has been asked to do more as well as change positions and his ops is 50+ points higher. If you are going to make defense such a huge part of the argument then you have to go back through history and ex off so many players that the award is rarely fairly given.

It's not the best player award as so many think should get it, but the MVP!

So, Michael Young should have won the MVP the past 3 years, right?

rocket
09-18-2012, 11:13 PM
So, because voters don't use WAR as a barometer (just like, based on the number of GG's Derek Jeter has, they base their award voting on nothing more than whatever-the-****-they-feel-like), we shouldn't use it to describe the best player in the league? Or bring it up in a discussion of AL MVP?

Mike Trout's been the best player in the AL this year.

And btw this forum acts like WAR is the deciding factor on which player is having the better season. It's not. WAR is flawed. The reason Trout is having a better season is his baserunning and D. Like I said Cabby is holding his own at 3rd, and Cabby isn't counted on for his speed. I think Cabby deserves the MVP, you will obviously disagree since your in love with WAR.

sexicano31
09-18-2012, 11:15 PM
And btw this forum acts like WAR is the deciding factor on which player is having the better season. It's not. WAR is flawed. The reason Trout is having a better season is his baserunning and D. Like I said Cabby is holding his own at 3rd, and Cabby isn't counted on for his speed. I think Cabby deserves the MVP, you will obviously disagree since your in love with WAR.

Cmon Dash, when looking at ALL the stats, Trout is better. Not just in WAR

rocket
09-18-2012, 11:19 PM
Cmon Dash, when looking at ALL the stats, Trout is better. Not just in WAR

ha. thought it was just bear fans. like i said trout is having the better season. take away Cabby from the Tigers and they might not even be a 500 team. meh, i really hate saying that trout is having the better season, but that cabby deserves the MVP.

bulldog312
09-18-2012, 11:23 PM
I guess I just don't understand the whole better but less valuable player thing. I get it in basketball or football where player performance is all intertwined. But I don't understand it in baseball where almost everything is pretty much individual.

SB75
09-18-2012, 11:25 PM
So, Michael Young should have won the MVP the past 3 years, right?

LOL.... WHen your argument fails, go to an extream.

I thought you where willing to have a seriouse debate about this.

whitesoxfan83
09-18-2012, 11:25 PM
Mike Trout is going to choke and lose me 50 bucks on the MVP... damn kids...

sexicano31
09-18-2012, 11:28 PM
LOL.... WHen your argument fails, go to an extream.

I thought you where willing to have a seriouse debate about this.

MVP is about a players performance, not his willingness to change positions.

sexicano31
09-18-2012, 11:32 PM
Hell, if it meant a players willingness to switch positions, the Cabrera should have been ****ing smart and stayed at 1B and let fielder DH

SB75
09-18-2012, 11:35 PM
MVP is about a players performance, not his willingness to change positions.

That's not the name of the award! If so call it the player perfomance award. It's the MVP, so yes what you do for your team does matter! You act like that is the entire argument, his stats are better than Trouts! He has also been willing to make a sacrafice for his team, not just that but the expectation and pressure was much higher for Miggy than it was for Trout. He lived up to the billing, that's no small task.... He's even stayed at 3B all year when every media person and their moma said he wouldn't be able to.

You want to narrow the argument, the stats outside defense and base running favor Miggy. You want defense and base running to figure in but you don't want sacraficing for your team to figgure in? Hmmmmm?

Last but not least Trouts OPS in Sept. .797, Miggy's 1.086 but I guess the last full month of the season doesn't count. Just like the first month when Trout didn't play much. You got to do it all year, that's what Miggy has done!

rocket
09-18-2012, 11:36 PM
The dudes a -9.4 UZR on the seasons. According to fangraphs FLD (which is a fielding statistic which adds up all your UZR all season) he's the worst fielding 3b in the league, and in the bottom 10 in the entire LEAGUE. Just...let that sink in. He's been among the 10 worst fielding players....in the whole ****ing league. When is this "holding your own"?

My mom's a better fielder than Miguel Cabrera.

By holding his own, I mean he's not making any errors and ****ing up. Obvisouly he was going to no get to many balls. That's what I mean by saying "holding his own"

sexicano31
09-18-2012, 11:40 PM
He wasnt sacrificing for his team by playing 3b, he was hurting them by playing 3b.

SB75
09-18-2012, 11:48 PM
He wasnt sacrificing for his team by playing 3b, he was hurting them by playing 3b.

:facepalm: No sense in going on, you just seek to be sarcastic.

TrueYankee
09-18-2012, 11:49 PM
Cabrera is the MVP over Trout, especially if he wins TC.

CHRISDODGERS
09-19-2012, 12:06 AM
Trout is the better player and is having the better year. Trout deserves to win the MVP. And I hate that "take blah blah off the team they might not even be .500". It goes both ways....

More-Than-Most
09-19-2012, 12:19 AM
Trout is better an more valuable but like Kershaw he will get screwed for not having the sexy stats...Chicks are not the only ones who dig the long balls people. MLB will go back to showing how much of a Joke it is when these awards get announced. The Triple crown is amazing but its 3 statistical areas out of many... It also only takes into account offense... Why is defense not anywhere near as important as offense? Trout is by far having the better season and it is not close.

More-Than-Most
09-19-2012, 12:20 AM
Cabrera is the MVP over Trout, especially if he wins TC.

Trout is great offensively but worlds better defensively and with his base running...What argument does Cabby have exactly?

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 12:26 AM
:facepalm: No sense in going on, you just seek to be sarcastic.

You do realize that by moving to 3B it hurt the Tigers, right? Hes not a good 3B. He should have stayed at 3B and let fielder play 1B. Get it through your skull

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 12:26 AM
Trout is great offensively but worlds better defensively and with his base running...What argument does Cabby have exactly?

RBI, brah

ChiTownPacerFan
09-19-2012, 12:33 AM
RBI's mean SOMETHING! He's not leading the league in at bats with runners on base, he's leading the league in knocking them in. I understand the shift in devaluing RBI's, but people have gone way too far. Cabrera is also leading the league in +WPA. I don't know what the hell that means, but I'm pretty sure it means he's good at driving in runs. That's a real skill, and it means something.

The idea that RBI's are worthless is like saying TD passes don't matter as a stat in football (after all the receivers are the one's who get open), or that jumpshots don't mean anything in basketball (someone has to do the work to create an open look, right?). No! Because that QB still has to make the pass, that player still has to make the shot, and that batter still has to get the hit.

Jack of Blades
09-19-2012, 12:38 AM
Has a clear RBI and AVG lead at the most. Just need 2 more HRs to catch up to Hamilton for the Triple Crown. Will he do it?

He's definitely MVP by the way, whether Triple Crown or not.

I'd hardly call it a "clear" lead. As of right now he's only .004 above Trout in BA and 6 above Hamilton.

VenezuelanMet
09-19-2012, 12:53 AM
He wasnt sacrificing for his team by playing 3b, he was hurting them by playing 3b.

Not really. I think he has basically the same WAR than if he played a neutral 1B.

Thus far, the defensive runs lost on 3B are offset by what he gains in positional Runs.

Actually, given that he probably was going to be around -4 runs in 1B defense he helped them a bit :)

Shark
09-19-2012, 12:53 AM
There has only been 2 rookies in the MLB to win the MVP as a rookie, and the most recent is Ichiro Suzuki.

Ichiro had 242 Hits in his rookie year, with .350 avg, 56 SB, .381 obp, .457 slug, .838 ops. he did it with 157 GP. He had 8 HR, 69 rbi and 127 runs scored, 34 2b and 8 triples. KEEP IN MIND THE MARINERS SET THE RECORD FOR BEST SEASON OF ALL TIME WITH 116-46.

Trout's PROJECTED #s are as follows, even tho theres only 14 games left.

Trout - 182 Hits, .328 avg, 50 SB, .397 obp, .559 slug, .956 ops, he's on pace to play 137 Games. On pace for 30 HR, 84 rbi's, 129 runs, 26 doubles, 7 triples. He has struck out 80 more times then Ichiro did and Ichiro had WAY more AB and Games played..

Ichiro's WAR for that season was 7.5 ... Trout's success has the Angels on the outside of the playoff spot. Just wanted to compare the last rookie of the year and the type of perfect season it took for that rookie to achieve it. Trout's definitely not getting MVP.

Lets compare him to Miguel now

Cabrera is on pace to play 161 games. .333 avg, .396 obp, .612 slug, 1.008 ops,

On pace for 208 hits, 44 HR, 142 rbi's, 110 runs, 42 doubles and is on pace for only 97 strikeouts(in more AB then trout). Tigers are also on the outside of a playoff spot.

How can you give the MVP to Trout over Miguel? Miguel will have about 24 more games played then Trout, thats close to a whole month of baseball and to put up the numbers he has is tremendous. Not to say that Trout wouldnt have kept on pace with his numbers, but if you factor in his CAREER totals from last year and this year its 164 GP and is ALL STAR numbers but NOT MVP Numbers.

If you add Miguels CURRENT total RBI's(129) and RUNS(100) it's 229 runs for the Tigers. Tigers as a team have had 654, that comes out to 35% of the teams offensive production this season.

If you add Trouts CURRENT total RBI's (77) and RUNS (118) it's 195 runs for the Angels.
Angels as a team have had 698 Runs scored, comes out to 27.9% of the teams offensive production.

Miguel has clearly been the player that been the MOST VALUABLE to his team and is a MUCH BETTER Candidate.

More-Than-Most
09-19-2012, 12:55 AM
There has only been 2 rookies in the MLB to win the MVP as a rookie, and the most recent is Ichiro Suzuki.

Ichiro had 242 Hits in his rookie year, with .350 avg, 56 SB, .381 obp, .457 slug, .838 ops. he did it with 157 GP. He had 8 HR, 69 rbi and 127 runs scored, 34 2b and 8 triples. KEEP IN MIND THE MARINERS SET THE RECORD FOR BEST SEASON OF ALL TIME WITH 116-46.

Trout's PROJECTED #s are as follows, even tho theres only 14 games left.

Trout - 182 Hits, .328 avg, 50 SB, .397 obp, .559 slug, .956 ops, he's on pace to play 137 Games. On pace for 30 HR, 84 rbi's, 129 runs, 26 doubles, 7 triples. He has struck out 80 more times then Ichiro did and Ichiro had WAY more AB and Games played..

Ichiro's WAR for that season was 7.5 ... Trout's success has the Angels on the outside of the playoff spot. Just wanted to compare the last rookie of the year and the type of perfect season it took for that rookie to achieve it. Trout's definitely not getting MVP.

Lets compare him to Miguel now

Cabrera is on pace to play 161 games. .333 avg, .396 obp, .612 slug, 1.008 ops,

On pace for 208 hits, 44 HR, 142 rbi's, 110 runs, 42 doubles and is on pace for only 97 strikeouts(in more AB then trout). Tigers are also on the outside of a playoff spot.

How can you give the MVP to Trout over Miguel? Miguel will have about 24 more games played then Trout, thats close to a whole month of baseball and to put up the numbers he has is tremendous. Not to say that Trout wouldnt have kept on pace with his numbers, but if you factor in his CAREER totals from last year and this year its 164 GP and is ALL STAR numbers but NOT MVP Numbers.

If you add Miguels CURRENT total RBI's(129) and RUNS(100) it's 229 runs for the Tigers. Tigers as a team have had 654, that comes out to 35% of the teams offensive production this season.

If you add Trouts CURRENT total RBI's (77) and RUNS (118) it's 195 runs for the Angels.
Angels as a team have had 698 Runs scored, comes out to 27.9% of the teams offensive production.

Miguel has clearly been the player that been the MOST VALUABLE to his team and is a MUCH BETTER Candidate.

What about the defense and base running? Why do they not matter but offense and RBI does?

VenezuelanMet
09-19-2012, 01:00 AM
Building from my previous post, let's assume he's having this same offensive season playin 1B, using last season's positional and defensive values.

RAR:
50.1 Batting. -2.9 BaseRunning. -3.8 Fielding. 21.0 Replacement (2012). -12.1 Positional.

That gives 52.3 Runs above replacement, compared to the 60.2 RAR he actually has thus far.

It's innacurate to say that he's hurt the Tigers with the move, if you believe Fangraphs numbers.

Det4Life
09-19-2012, 01:02 AM
What about the defense and base running? Why do they not matter but offense and RBI does?

What he said should be enough for Miggy to win it. Sure Trout has the baserunning and defense in his favor, but that's it...

Shark
09-19-2012, 01:06 AM
Why do you guys keep talking about defense? the guy catches fly balls, big freaking deal, his arm is nothing to talk about, he has 2 outfield assists all season long. The last time Cabrera played OF position, he had 13 outfield assists in his 2nd season in the Majors. He also had 9 Errors all season long in more games and Trout has 4. The guy has the speed to back up his defense, the only thing Trout actually has on Miguel is Speed and thats it. They play 2 different defensive positions that suit the type of player they are.

More-Than-Most
09-19-2012, 01:20 AM
What he said should be enough for Miggy to win it. Sure Trout has the baserunning and defense in his favor, but that's it...

:facepalm:

More-Than-Most
09-19-2012, 01:20 AM
Why do you guys keep talking about defense? the guy catches fly balls, big freaking deal, his arm is nothing to talk about, he has 2 outfield assists all season long. The last time Cabrera played OF position, he had 13 outfield assists in his 2nd season in the Majors. He also had 9 Errors all season long in more games and Trout has 4. The guy has the speed to back up his defense, the only thing Trout actually has on Miguel is Speed and thats it. They play 2 different defensive positions that suit the type of player they are.

Range? Hard to make errors when you rarely ever get to the ball :shrug:

Ares
09-19-2012, 02:01 AM
The fact that Cabrera might get the TC and still isn't half as valuable as Trout shows how little the TC means.

"Ace"ves
09-19-2012, 02:23 AM
Someone doesn't know what wOBA is...

Weighted on base average?

So a decided value based off what kind of hit you get means that the stat is taking into account moving over baserunners? You sure thats what it was made for. I swear people take these stats and assume the formula is taking every part of the game... yikes!

ahoda
09-19-2012, 06:48 AM
You do realize that by moving to 3B it hurt the Tigers, right? Hes not a good 3B. He should have stayed at 3B and let fielder play 1B. Get it through your skull


You have no idea what you're talking about on his move to 3B. Brandon Inge was the Tigers 3B for the past few years and he was awful offensively. Miggy's bat has well exceeded any defense Inge was adding. Miggy sucks with a glove, but he has played better there then anyone even imagined he would and he completely changed his body in the off season preparing for the move.

I am a Tigers fan but Trout is still the MVP. He affects the game in more facets then Miggy does.

1908_Cubs
09-19-2012, 07:15 AM
And btw this forum acts like WAR is the deciding factor on which player is having the better season. It's not. WAR is flawed. The reason Trout is having a better season is his baserunning and D. Like I said Cabby is holding his own at 3rd, and Cabby isn't counted on for his speed. I think Cabby deserves the MVP, you will obviously disagree since your in love with WAR.

Did you read my post? Did you? Because you took a post, which, literally, showed he was statistically the worst defensive third baseman in the league (by a decent margin, might I add), and then you told me he's "holding his own".

No. He's not "holding his own". If Miguel Cabrera is "holding his own" than literally, everyone on in MLB is "holding his own" at his position for literally showing up with a glove.

I'm in love with giving the best player the MVP. You're in love with giving your favorite player, on your favorite team (hey, look, your sig has a Lions picture, I bet you're a Tigers fan!) an award he does not deserve.

1908_Cubs
09-19-2012, 07:16 AM
You have no idea what you're talking about on his move to 3B. Brandon Inge was the Tigers 3B for the past few years and he was awful offensively. Miggy's bat has well exceeded any defense Inge was adding. Miggy sucks with a glove, but he has played better there then anyone even imagined he would and he completely changed his body in the off season preparing for the move.

I am a Tigers fan but Trout is still the MVP. He affects the game in more facets then Miggy does.

I think pre-season people thought he'd be the worst defensive 3b in the league and he has more than lived up to that.

ahoda
09-19-2012, 08:05 AM
I think pre-season people thought he'd be the worst defensive 3b in the league and he has more than lived up to that.

And it's sad too, because he's still playing a lot better then people thought he would. lol

BcEuAbRsS
09-19-2012, 08:13 AM
Best hitter in the game. I hope he gets the triple crown.

BcEuAbRsS
09-19-2012, 08:15 AM
In fairness, everyone in the world knows he shouldn't be at 3rd.

Pinstripe pride
09-19-2012, 08:19 AM
if he gets bthe triple crown, he will win the MVP

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 09:34 AM
What he said should be enough for Miggy to win it. Sure Trout has the baserunning and defense in his favor, but that's it...

And he has a .950 OPS at a premium position. Tigers fans are cute

LongIslandIcedZ
09-19-2012, 09:46 AM
If Miguel Cabrera actually wins the Triple Crown, which is an incredible accomplishment, he will win the MVP. I dont think it will even be a question.

I'm not saying he deserves it, but he will win it.

1-800-STFU
09-19-2012, 09:46 AM
the mvp voters aren't going to look at which player has better baserunning, they are going to look into the defense obviously but cabby is holding his own at 3rd. (Yes Trouts still a better fielder)

Even though Trout is having the better season, Miguels team is in the playoff race, and I think the voters will vote for Cabby.

No he's not he is terrible at 3rd what are you talking about. He cant even field a bunt.

DieHardColtsfan
09-19-2012, 09:58 AM
I'd still vote Trout. That's of course, if I had a vote.

ciaban
09-19-2012, 10:22 AM
No it shows you nothing. RBI mean NOTHING when judging a player. If he didnt have those guys on base, then he wouldnt have the opportunities. And if they do show you a snapshot of timely hitting, then other players should be punished for not having as many runners on? Stop it.

what about lou gherig who cracked in 185 rbi hitting directly behind babe ruth who had 156 rib's that same year, it is really hard to hit in 100 rbi's when the guy in front of you is doing 150+ a year, let alone crank out 185 which is a totally absurd number

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 10:27 AM
what about lou gherig who cracked in 185 rbi hitting directly behind babe ruth who had 156 rib's that same year, it is really hard to hit in 100 rbi's when the guy in front of you is doing 150+ a year, let alone crank out 185 which is a totally absurd number

I assume he had a ridiculously high % of base runners driven in then.

Buckwheat
09-19-2012, 10:32 AM
what about lou gherig who cracked in 185 rbi hitting directly behind babe ruth who had 156 rib's that same year, it is really hard to hit in 100 rbi's when the guy in front of you is doing 150+ a year, let alone crank out 185 which is a totally absurd number

Ahhh, yes. 1931. Great year that was.

Trout's MVP, everyone. Deal with it. Cabrera will probably win it doe.

ciaban
09-19-2012, 10:35 AM
That's not the name of the award! If so call it the player perfomance award. It's the MVP, so yes what you do for your team does matter! You act like that is the entire argument, his stats are better than Trouts! He has also been willing to make a sacrafice for his team, not just that but the expectation and pressure was much higher for Miggy than it was for Trout. He lived up to the billing, that's no small task.... He's even stayed at 3B all year when every media person and their moma said he wouldn't be able to.

You want to narrow the argument, the stats outside defense and base running favor Miggy. You want defense and base running to figure in but you don't want sacraficing for your team to figgure in? Hmmmmm?

Last but not least Trouts OPS in Sept. .797, Miggy's 1.086 but I guess the last full month of the season doesn't count. Just like the first month when Trout didn't play much. You got to do it all year, that's what Miggy has done!

trout has made the sacrifice of moving to left field when ever we get around to playing bourjous who is a superior defender :shrug:

he really shouldn't be, i think this miggy at 3rd has a shelf life, they are paying Victor Martinez like 15 a year, and since A)Alex Avila isn't giving that position back and B)He can't play that potion, they need to find somewhere to put him. When he comes back next year, he will be the DH with Miggy at 3rd, but after that his contract is up, and it's time to put either prince or miggy at DH

ciaban
09-19-2012, 10:37 AM
I assume he had a ridiculously high % of base runners driven in then.

all I am saying is that RBI have value, I wont give away an mvp award based on that alone, and that some people are greater than us average folk and don't need a lot of people on base to crank em out like good ol' lou did

ciaban
09-19-2012, 10:42 AM
i think this web site way OVERVALUES war, it is not a perfect stat, it is meant to be a snap shot, not some season defining perfect number, also, with miggy his defense weighs down his WAR a lot, if he was still at 1st i think it would be a lot higher, and here is my question, Are Defense and Offense worth the same? Are Defense and Base running worth the same? Is base running and offense worth the same?

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 10:43 AM
all I am saying is that RBI have value, I wont give away an mvp award based on that alone, and that some people are greater than us average folk and don't need a lot of people on base to crank em out like good ol' lou did

That's why it's better to look at the amount of men they had on base(or just RISP) and look at the % of runners they drove in. Its more telling than RBI

Example: player A has 120 RBI, player B had 90. Both drove in 20% of the runners who were on in front of them. Without looking at the % you would think that A was better in those situations

ciaban
09-19-2012, 10:45 AM
Also, if Mike Trout was leading in RBI's you guys would be gushing over that like you were his BA. Let that sink in, the most impresive thing mike trout did this year was force SABR heads to acknowledged batting average. lol

Miggy leads in BA and yet i haven't seen a single person trash his BA or trash BA in general, why aren't you guys bashing that stat like you are RBI's? Because you are the same people who were gushing over Trouts BA in July and August.

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 10:50 AM
I don't know any smart people who bash BA. Sure, it doesn't tell you anything besides a players ability to get a hit, but it's still semi useful

ciaban
09-19-2012, 11:01 AM
I don't know any smart people who bash BA. Sure, it doesn't tell you anything besides a players ability to get a hit, but it's still semi useful

i have seen just about every SABR head on this site trash BA and gush over OPB despite OBP being heavily rooted in your BA and having the same flaw that assumes that a single is worth the same as a home run, except it goes a step further and says a walk is the same as a home run, when a walk isn't even as good as a single.

But yeah i have seen BA trashed on this site, i remember a public thread entitled "why does anyone use BA anymore" mike trout single-handedly reversed all that, if he leads in RBI next year, he will single-handedly reverse that as well.

WOwolfOL
09-19-2012, 11:23 AM
I like RBIs. Not as a comparative tool but as a standalone stat. I want every guy in my line-up to have a lot of RBIs. And BA drives the slash line. I still respect the usefulness of both stats.

RTL
09-19-2012, 11:48 AM
I hope he gets the triple crown. And say what you want about WAR, RBIs not being significant at all and so on.
Nobody can deny that seeing somebody accomplish something not done since Yaz is absolutely amazing.

My thoughts exactly. People can try to dismiss BA and RBI all they want but the fact remains he is hitting that well and hitting when it counts. It hasn't happened since 1967 which means is pretty ****ing hard to do. I would love to see one in my lifetime.

As far as the MVP goes, he should have won it last year but I can't see him winning it over Trout.

ciaban
09-19-2012, 12:08 PM
I like RBIs. Not as a comparative tool but as a standalone stat. I want every guy in my line-up to have a lot of RBIs. And BA drives the slash line. I still respect the usefulness of both stats.

very well said,

VRP723
09-19-2012, 12:10 PM
Mvp! Mvp! Mvp!

Yankee Clipper
09-19-2012, 12:12 PM
Triple Crown would definitely be awesome to see, but Trout should still be the MVP of the American League.

Twitchy
09-19-2012, 12:31 PM
I'm not sure why Cabrera should get the MVP if he gets the triple crown. If he's 1 home run away from winning the triple crown do we automatically hand the MVP to Trout because Cabrera failed to get the Triple Crown? Cause if that's your argument then you're literally saying 1-2 home runs should decide whether a player wins the MVP or not.

Does anybody else not see how crazy that is?

Cabrera's season won't be ignored if he wins a Triple Crown, but it doesn't mean he's the best guy in the league even if he pulls it off. And let's be clear - while Cabrera is having an awesome season, he's just not as good as Trout is.

Ron!n
09-19-2012, 12:33 PM
So now its about intangibles, eh? Trout is comparable this year by looking at simple stats(OPS). Factor in his superior defense at a very tough position(CF) and his superior baserunning and Trout is MVP

Mike Trout is more handsome though, as long as we're counting useless intangibles :shrug:

Its going to be sad when Cabrera wins MVP. I can already see the BBWAA messing this up.

Det4Life
09-19-2012, 12:57 PM
Mike Trout is more handsome though, as long as we're counting useless intangibles :shrug:

Its going to be sad when Cabrera wins MVP. I can already see the BBWAA messing this up.

Maybe for you. Cabrera is just as deserving of the MVP as Trout is.

Yankee Clipper
09-19-2012, 12:59 PM
Maybe for you. Cabrera is just as deserving of the MVP as Trout is.

Care to back that up that statement in some way?

Twitchy
09-19-2012, 01:08 PM
The sad part is Cabrera was robbed last year. Everybody just ignored how good he was and was blinded by the W-L total of Verlander. Verlander's been just as good this year but he's not getting any recognition cause of the W/L total. I firmly believe that Cabrera's been the best Tiger for several years now. It's kind of like how Utley got overlooked by Howard/Rollins, Cabrera got overlooked by Verlander's high win total despite the fact Cabrera was the better player.

But that still doesn't justify Cabrera winning now, or him winning MVP based off the Triple Crown.

Det4Life
09-19-2012, 01:08 PM
Care to back that up that statement in some way?

Sure. He's in the running for the MVP, just like Trout. Also, close to a Triple Crown.

Det4Life
09-19-2012, 01:09 PM
The sad part is Cabrera was robbed last year. Everybody just ignored how good he was and was blinded by the W-L total of Verlander. Verlander's been just as good this year but he's not getting any recognition cause of the W/L total.

I don't think he was robbed last year, I think he was robbed the year before when Hamilton got it.

Yankee Clipper
09-19-2012, 01:11 PM
Sure. He's in the running for the MVP, just like Trout. Also, close to a Triple Crown.

I was looking for statistical backup to your argument. Because the majority of stats point towards Trout having a better overall season than Miggy.

xnick5757
09-19-2012, 01:13 PM
offensively:

Trout: .396 OBP | .420 wOBA | 174 wRC+ | 9.4 WAR

Cabrera: .396 OBP | .420 wOBA | 169 wRC+ | 6.6 WAR


defensively:

Trout: 19.0 UZR/150
Cabrera: -12.0 UZR/150


Basic stats, differences:


Plate Appearances: Cabrera, +60
Singles: Cabrera, +2
Doubles: Cabrera, +14
Triples: Trout, +6
Home Runs: Cabrera, +13
Walks + Hit By Pitch: Cabrera, +1
Ground Into Double Plays: Cabrera, +21
Total Bases: Cabrera, +64
Outs Made: Cabrera, +54



Cabrera is first in GIDPs in large part because he’s second in GIDP opportunities — only Robinson Cano, with 144 chances to hit into a double play this year, has had more GIDP opps — and Cabrera’s 138 GIDP opportunities is nearly double Trout’s 75, which is a natural byproduct of their positions in the batting order. We shouldn’t just hold Cabrera’s extra GIDP outs against him without adjusting for the context of his quantity of chances.

But, of course, that’s exactly what the argument for Cabrera wants you to do with RBIs. Ignore context, ignore opportunity, and just focus on the fact that Cabrera has driven in 52 more runs than Trout has. If you’re going to quote Cabrera’s RBI advantage, you must also quote his massive disadvantage in GIDPs – they are the fruit of the same tree. The more intellectually honest way to measure this value is through looking at both GIDPs and RBIs as a function of plate appearances where those results were made possible by the actions of the people batting in front of both players, but if you’re not going to do that with RBIs, then you have to count the full weight of Cabrera’s extra outs against him.

If you’d rather actually adjust for those opportunity differences, however, we should probably note that Cabrera has had 415 baserunners when he’s batted this year, compared to just 274 for Trout. Cabrera has driven in 52 additional runs while having an extra 141 guys on base because of where he hits in the line-up. If we look at runs driven in as a percentage of total men on base when both men hit, we see that Cabrera has driven in 31% of his total baserunners, while Trout is at 28% – both way above the league average of 15%, and a difference much smaller than raw RBI totals would lead you to believe.

There’s really two choices here – ignore opportunities and give Cabrera credit for driving in many more runs while also penalizing him for creating many more outs, or adjust for opportunity and realize that Cabrera hasn’t actually been that much better than Trout at bringing his teammates home once they get on base. And, of course, none of this accounts for anything that happens after the two of them leave the batters box, or the value of the extra runs that Trout creates with his legs.

Left out of the net difference table above were things like stolen bases and other runner advancements, but of course those have value, and even the staunchest Cabrera supporter should admit that Trout should get some credit for the value of his speed. So, let’s look at the net differences in things that have to do with baserunning.

Stolen Bases: Trout, +42
Caught Stealing: Trout, +3
Other Outs Made On Base: Cabrera, +2
First to Third on a Single: Trout, +13
Second to Home on a Single: Trout, +5

This is Trout in a landslide, as you’d expect. Not only has Trout put himself in scoring position far more often by stealing second base, he’s also scored more often when opponents have gotten hits and he’s been on base. The fact that Trout has 18 additional runs scored despite playing in those 21 fewer games shows the magnitude of the difference that baserunning can make, and it’s of course silly to only consider runs created with the bat and ignore those with the legs. Trout has scored 45% of the times he’s been on base — easily the highest of any regular in the AL — compared to a league average of just 31% and Cabrera’s 28% total. Yes, some of that is having Albert Pujols hit behind him, but of course Prince Fielder hits behind Cabrera, mitigating the argument that run scored percentage is solely a function of the guy hitting behind you.


And, look, this isn’t voodoo magic that deals with theoretical replacement levels – this is simply the result of adding up all the positive and negative offensive events that both Trout and Cabrera have produced this year. Even with the 21 fewer games played, Trout has produced more runs this season . The only way to come to a different conclusion is to selectively choose the kinds of runs you want to measure. By objective metrics that include all aspects of offensive value, Mike Trout has been a better offensive performer than Cabrera this year.

Look, even here at FanGraphs, we don’t think the MVP award should just be the WAR of the Year award. We’ve said repeatedly that WAR is a useful tool for identifying groups of players who have had similar years, and it takes a precision that WAR is not capable of providing to determine the differences between guys who are within the same overall range of value. The problem with the argument surrounding Trout and Cabrera is that they’re not in the overall same range of value. Mike Trout is a group unto himself this year – a fantastic defensive center fielder who also happens to be the best baserunner in baseball and who has hit nearly as well as anyone else alive.

You don’t have to buy into WAR as the be-all, end-all statistic to know that Trout has been the AL’s best player by a country mile this year. Simply look at all the facts, and not just the three that were treated as important 100 years ago. Morosi is right about one thing – whether Miguel Cabrera wins the triple crown or not should be irrelevant. The AL MVP is obvious. It’s just not Miguel Cabrera.


and thats all i have to say on the matter

via fangraphs (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/mike-trout-miguel-cabrera-and-measuring-value/)

Det4Life
09-19-2012, 01:13 PM
I was looking for statistical backup to your argument. Because the majority of stats point towards Trout having a better overall season than Miggy.

Majority of what stats, all the secondary ones? Base running, defense, etc?

Det4Life
09-19-2012, 01:15 PM
offensively:

Trout: .396 OBP | .420 wOBA | 174 wRC+ | 9.4 WAR

Cabrera: .396 OBP | .420 wOBA | 169 wRC+ | 6.6 WAR


defensively:

Trout: 19.0 UZR/150
Cabrera: -12.0 UZR/150


Basic stats, differences:









and thats all i have to say on the matter

via fangraphs (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/mike-trout-miguel-cabrera-and-measuring-value/)

Another person to overvalue WAR. What else is new with this forum....:facepalm:

xnick5757
09-19-2012, 01:15 PM
Majority of what stats, all the secondary ones? Base running, defense, etc?

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=23680328&postcount=85

xnick5757
09-19-2012, 01:16 PM
Another person to overvalue WAR. What else is new with this forum....:facepalm:

read my entire post brah

Det4Life
09-19-2012, 01:21 PM
read my entire post brah

Did before it was 'your post', brah.

That's great and all, but he's obviously entitled to his (the writer) opinion just like the rest of us. Both players are deserving of the MVP, if they weren't.... it wouldn't be discussed.

Oh....

WAR, huh... yeah..... what is it good for?

Absolutely nothin!

Say it again!

xnick5757
09-19-2012, 01:23 PM
Did before it was 'your post', brah.

That's great and all, but he's obviously entitled to his (the writer) opinion just like the rest of us. Both players are deserving of the MVP, if they weren't.... it wouldn't be discussed.

Oh....

WAR, huh... yeah..... what is it good for?

Absolutely nothin!

Say it again!


i can tell that you didn't read the article

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 01:25 PM
Did before it was 'your post', brah.

That's great and all, but he's obviously entitled to his (the writer) opinion just like the rest of us. Both players are deserving of the MVP, if they weren't.... it wouldn't be discussed.

Oh....

WAR, huh... yeah..... what is it good for?

Absolutely nothin!

Say it again!

The funny thing is, if Cabrera had a higher WAR than Trout Im sure you wouldnt be saying that

Det4Life
09-19-2012, 01:27 PM
The funny thing is, if Cabrera had a higher WAR than Trout Im sure you wouldnt be saying that

I would, because I don't pay attention to it.

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 01:31 PM
I would, because I don't pay attention to it.

Because you dont get it, right?

Driven
09-19-2012, 01:31 PM
Why do you guys keep talking about defense? the guy catches fly balls, big freaking deal, his arm is nothing to talk about, he has 2 outfield assists all season long. The last time Cabrera played OF position, he had 13 outfield assists in his 2nd season in the Majors. He also had 9 Errors all season long in more games and Trout has 4. The guy has the speed to back up his defense, the only thing Trout actually has on Miguel is Speed and thats it. They play 2 different defensive positions that suit the type of player they are.

Outfield assists are such a small sample size. But if you REALLY want to disect them, think of them this way:

- More assists = More people running on you
- More people running on you = the perception that they can get to that next base
- The perception that they can get to that next base = them not thinking highly of your arm

"The only thing that Trout actually has on Miguel is Speed"

The two biggest assets an outfielder can have are reading the ball and speed. I'm not really sure if you can compare how well they read the ball, but it's all about making outs, and Trout is able to make those outs better than Cabrera.

Also, talent does not equal production. You looking at Trout's speed and Cabrera's everything else, but those are talents. The MVP award isn't about talent, it's about production.

Defense is a huge part of the game. Baserunning is tough to tell. But Trout has been superb in both areas.

The only real argument for Cabrera is the fact that he has played more, and thus has helped his team because of that. Is that enough? Maybe.

But with both teams looking like they won't make the playoffs, I'd say Trout is the favorite right now.

Driven
09-19-2012, 01:37 PM
also, with miggy his defense weighs down his WAR a lot, if he was still at 1st i think it would be a lot higher

The problem with this is that if he plays first, he's considered a 1st baseman, not a 3rd. And if he's a 1st baseman, his offensive stats, while ridiculously good, are not deemed as valuable because of the fact that so many 1B are great hitters. Position plays a factor.

So even if his WAR goes up, it won't go up nearly as much as you think.

Look at 2010, when Miguel had a somewhat comparable season. He was a decent amount better that year offensively, yet his WAR was lower. And that was with a better UZR, since he was playing 1B. His WAR this year will be about half a point higher than in 2010.

VRP723
09-19-2012, 01:40 PM
It's interesting to me that in this day and age people still get so worked up about the awards. Every year there's probably 5 guys that have at least somewhat of an argument to winning every award, and one of them gets it.

The sabermetric community always gets so into it, which is funny, because one would think a group that values the more relevant statistics wouldn't care about something as meaningless as the MVP award.

I'm personally rooting for Miggy, not because I think he's more deserving, just because I get enjoyment out of the reactions.

CTCUBBIES
09-19-2012, 01:47 PM
I think Trout has had the better year but if you are going to factor in who has been more "valuable" to their team do you have to take into account that Cabrera has played in 21 more games than Trout this year (obviously not his fault)?

In other words would you rather have had Cabrera and his numbers in the lineup for 146 games or Trout and his numbers for 125 games?

This is not my opinion - I'm just asking the question of the stat guys in here because I don't really know how missed games and such relate in stats like WAR - Miggy is obviously getting an edge in the "counting" stats but at the end of the day those stats meant something in value to his team.

rocket
09-19-2012, 01:58 PM
Trout is having the better season. Thing is, Cabrera is still going to win the MVP. The voters don't look into WAR,UZR,wRC+. this forum is going to be really mad too when it happens. Advanced stats are never going to say that Cabby should win the MVP because he's a poor fielder and poor baserunner.

atl_braves_fan
09-19-2012, 02:00 PM
MVP: Most Valuable Player


Honor the name of the award. Cabrera is the most valuable player to his team in baseball this year. Best player? I think it's Miggy, but that's debatable, so if you think Trout, no biggie. But Trout is not the most valuable player. Yes defense should count for something! So should changing to a position you have not played in years without complaining about it!

Most Valuable Player and best player mean the same thing. They are both objective measures of who has produced the most value for the given season. Who could possibly produce more value individually than the best player?

The people who do not "honor the name of the award" are the people that treat the award as if it were "MVPTHTITSS" or Most Valuable Player to his team in his specific situation. That is simply not what the award is for - it is for the player that creates the most value (i.e. the best player).

Driven
09-19-2012, 02:02 PM
Trout is having the better season. Thing is, Cabrera is still going to win the MVP. The voters don't look into WAR,UZR,wRC+. this forum is going to be really mad too when it happens. Advanced stats are never going to say that Cabby should win the MVP because he's a poor fielder and poor baserunner.

I hear ya, but the voters do very much look at WAR. At least most of them.

Jayson Stark, who I think does have a vote, says that he doesn't look at WAR as much as some of those with votes, but Stark himself has Trout as the MVP right now.

chi-townlove1
09-19-2012, 02:09 PM
Your a dumb *****. I'm so sick of your RBI meaningless bull ****. He brought those runs in!!! Who the **** says that's not important. You? My god. Your dumb as hell. You ever played ball kid? If Miguel isn't bringing in those runs then who knows, the people behind him could strike out, hit into double play, and there goes those runs and probably some wins long with them. Just stop posting on here. Please.

No, I wont stop posting. You mad? You seem mad that Im going against the god almighty RBI. You do know if he didnt have the guys on base, he wouldnt be able to drive them in, right? Look at his % of runners driven in and the opportunities he had to drive them in.

And please dont insult my intelligence until you know the difference between "your" and "you're"

So YOU'RE going to punish him for having guys on base in front of him. Just because it's not 100% him, he is still supplying the run production. That case could be made for any stat and every player. That is why they call baseball a team sport.

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 02:11 PM
So YOU'RE going to punish him for having guys on base in front of him. Just because it's not 100% him, he is still supplying the run production. That case could be made for any stat and every player. That is why they call baseball a team sport.
He deserves some of the credit, sure. But lets just say he had by far the most opportunities with runners on base. I mean, 100 more opportunities than the next guy. Lets say he drove in 20% of the runners. Does that make him better than the guy with the 2nd most opportunities who drove in 20% or more of the runners?

atl_braves_fan
09-19-2012, 02:13 PM
So YOU'RE going to punish him for having guys on base in front of him. Just because it's not 100% him, he is still supplying the run production. That case could be made for any stat and every player. That is why they call baseball a team sport.

You are actually both correct. It is not that RBIs mean nothing, it is that RBIs are not, strictly speaking, an individual stat. Therefore, they don't really have a place in judging a player's individual accomplishments.

To put it another way, you shouldn't necessarily punish a guy for having low RBI numbers and you shouldn't necessarily praise a guy for having high RBI numbers. It is largely irrelevant in judging individual performance, because it is dependent upon other members of the player's team.

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 02:15 PM
You are actually both correct. It is not that RBIs mean nothing, it is that RBIs are not, strictly speaking, an individual stat. Therefore, they don't really have a place in judging a player's individual accomplishments.

To put it another way, you shouldn't necessarily punish a guy for having low RBI numbers and you shouldn't necessarily praise a guy for having high RBI numbers. It is largely irrelevant in judging individual performance, because it is dependent upon other members of the player's team.
Thats actually a good way to look at it, never thought of it that way

chi-townlove1
09-19-2012, 02:28 PM
So YOU'RE going to punish him for having guys on base in front of him. Just because it's not 100% him, he is still supplying the run production. That case could be made for any stat and every player. That is why they call baseball a team sport.
He deserves some of the credit, sure. But lets just say he had by far the most opportunities with runners on base. I mean, 100 more opportunities than the next guy. Lets say he drove in 20% of the runners. Does that make him better than the guy with the 2nd most opportunities who drove in 20% or more of the runners?

Yes, maybe miggy is given more opportunities but for that you have to take into account his place in the lineup. He is successful because the man is slugging machine on top of hitting for HIGHEST average in the entire legue. That, sir, is an individual stat that means so much to his personal batting statistics. I don't fully understand WAR but I also don't like ignorance towards stats that have been relevant since the day they came into form.

RTL
09-19-2012, 04:56 PM
The sad part is Cabrera was robbed last year. Everybody just ignored how good he was and was blinded by the W-L total of Verlander. Verlander's been just as good this year but he's not getting any recognition cause of the W/L total. I firmly believe that Cabrera's been the best Tiger for several years now. It's kind of like how Utley got overlooked by Howard/Rollins, Cabrera got overlooked by Verlander's high win total despite the fact Cabrera was the better player.

Amen

xnick5757
09-19-2012, 05:08 PM
The sad part is Cabrera was robbed last year. Everybody just ignored how good he was and was blinded by the W-L total of Verlander. Verlander's been just as good this year but he's not getting any recognition cause of the W/L total. I firmly believe that Cabrera's been the best Tiger for several years now. It's kind of like how Utley got overlooked by Howard/Rollins, Cabrera got overlooked by Verlander's high win total despite the fact Cabrera was the better player.

But that still doesn't justify Cabrera winning now, or him winning MVP based off the Triple Crown.

eh, Bautista and ellsbury were better than cabrera last year

Twitchy
09-19-2012, 05:37 PM
eh, Bautista and ellsbury were better than cabrera last year

And so was Pedroia. But none of that matters because the voters won't choose guys from non-contending teams. So while I would have picked Bautista, and others would have chosen Ellsbury, the bottom line is that if people weren't misled by the W/L record of Verlander they would have realized that not only was Cabrera the best Tiger, but the best position player from a contending club.

masTOR_shake1
09-19-2012, 06:05 PM
holy smokes! i'm rooting for him, go miggy. :clap:

Pittz
09-19-2012, 07:46 PM
It's interesting to me that in this day and age people still get so worked up about the awards. Every year there's probably 5 guys that have at least somewhat of an argument to winning every award, and one of them gets it.

The sabermetric community always gets so into it, which is funny, because one would think a group that values the more relevant statistics wouldn't care about something as meaningless as the MVP award.

I'm personally rooting for Miggy, not because I think he's more deserving, just because I get enjoyment out of the reactions.

:nod:

Zmaster52
09-19-2012, 07:54 PM
You are actually both correct. It is not that RBIs mean nothing, it is that RBIs are not, strictly speaking, an individual stat. Therefore, they don't really have a place in judging a player's individual accomplishments.

To put it another way, you shouldn't necessarily punish a guy for having low RBI numbers and you shouldn't necessarily praise a guy for having high RBI numbers. It is largely irrelevant in judging individual performance, because it is dependent upon other members of the player's team.

:clap: great post

2-ONE-5
09-19-2012, 08:00 PM
Miggy is the MVP no doubt and Triple Crown will guarantee it. Put out all the advanced stats you want for Trout but the Angels have a waaay better lineup and staff then the Tigers. Its def a 2 horse race but my vote goes to Miggy (not by a lot tho)

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 08:06 PM
Miggy is the MVP no doubt and Triple Crown will guarantee it. Put out all the advanced stats you want for Trout but the Angels have a waaay better lineup and staff then the Tigers. Its def a 2 horse race but my vote goes to Miggy (not by a lot tho)

What does the pitching staff and lineup have anything to do with Trouts performance?

Fly
09-19-2012, 08:24 PM
Weighted on base average?

So a decided value based off what kind of hit you get means that the stat is taking into account moving over baserunners? You sure thats what it was made for. I swear people take these stats and assume the formula is taking every part of the game... yikes!

That's why a walk is valued less than a hit in wOBA, at least that's what I assume you're arguing.

#1 Romo fan
09-19-2012, 09:37 PM
I think Cabrera deserves it even if he doesn't get triple crown. As I say this another moonshot by Miggy

FortDetroit
09-19-2012, 09:38 PM
41 homers. 1 behind Hamilton now.

Jeffy25
09-19-2012, 09:49 PM
So how did WAR factor into last years MVP? It didn't.

Uhhh, last year it was waaaaaaaay closer

Verlander - 8.2 rWAR
Ellsbury - 8.0 rWAR
Bautista - 7.7 rWAR


This season?

Trout - 10.3 rWAR
Miggy - 6.3 rWAR

I can't remember the last time first place was this far ahead of second place and the rest of the pack by so much.

It's crazy considering with all the work Miggy has done the last month plus, and that Trout has been struggling, that Miggy just now has equalized him offensively.

And this doesn't even account for positional value and defensive value, and base running added to that.

What is the argument for Miggy? He doesn't do anything better than Trout (not this season any way)

(looked it up)
The last time the AL MVP leader was this far ahead in WAR was in 07 when A-Rod had a 9.2 and Magglio Ordonez had a 6.9, and that is still almost 2 full WAR closer than Miggy is to Trout.

I'm not saying Trout will win. I'm saying he clearly should though.

VenezuelanMet
09-19-2012, 09:54 PM
It's interesting to me that in this day and age people still get so worked up about the awards. Every year there's probably 5 guys that have at least somewhat of an argument to winning every award, and one of them gets it.

The sabermetric community always gets so into it, which is funny, because one would think a group that values the more relevant statistics wouldn't care about something as meaningless as the MVP award.

I'm personally rooting for Miggy, not because I think he's more deserving, just because I get enjoyment out of the reactions.

Great post, this is basically my stand on it.

SB75
09-19-2012, 10:02 PM
If Mike Trout wins the MVP, it's saying the first and last month of the season don't matter! Mike only a handful of games in April while miggy was putting up .298/.368/.571/.939. Over the last monthe when these teams are pushing for a play-off spot Miggy has put up .373/.426/.797/.1223..... ANd that's before he went deep tonight. While Trout has gone .274/.375/.403/.778..... So the guy that does it for 4 mo (Trout) deserves it more than the guy tht did it all season?..... Give me a break with that WAR crap, some fans are just to smart to be honest.

Zander 77
09-19-2012, 10:07 PM
(looked it up)
The last time the AL MVP leader was this far ahead in WAR was in 07 when A-Rod had a 9.2 and Magglio Ordonez had a 6.9, and that is still almost 2 full WAR closer than Miggy is to Trout.

OT....

And Magglio should have won it that year, too.

SB75
09-19-2012, 10:13 PM
Most Valuable Player and best player mean the same thing. They are both objective measures of who has produced the most value for the given season. Who could possibly produce more value individually than the best player?

The people who do not "honor the name of the award" are the people that treat the award as if it were "MVPTHTITSS" or Most Valuable Player to his team in his specific situation. That is simply not what the award is for - it is for the player that creates the most value (i.e. the best player).

Dude, really? You can look up the def for valuable and best, not the same. You can actually be more valuable to your team without being the best player on your team. Visit our very own braves thread for proof. Most fans woould say Prado has been our most valuable player, Prado is not the best player on our team by far. But he might just be the most valuable for what he does.

FortDetroit
09-19-2012, 10:15 PM
Why dont they just call it the "WAR award" if that's all that matters? The fact that people think that a player's performance can be boiled down to a single man made statistic is hilarious.

AND YES, AS A TIGERS FAN I THINK TROUT DESERVES TO WIN.

thewupk
09-19-2012, 10:20 PM
Most Valuable Player and best player mean the same thing. They are both objective measures of who has produced the most value for the given season. Who could possibly produce more value individually than the best player?

The people who do not "honor the name of the award" are the people that treat the award as if it were "MVPTHTITSS" or Most Valuable Player to his team in his specific situation. That is simply not what the award is for - it is for the player that creates the most value (i.e. the best player).

“There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.

“The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931: (1) actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense; (2) number of games played; (3) general character, disposition, loyalty and effort; (4) former winners are eligible; and (5) members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.”

That is what is on the ballot. It's more than just the player who creates the most value. And even that is subjective to each voter.

SB75
09-19-2012, 10:21 PM
You do realize that by moving to 3B it hurt the Tigers, right? Hes not a good 3B. He should have stayed at 3B and let fielder play 1B. Get it through your skull

Love it how you bury a comment hours and hours later to hide it and be a D-Bag. Get it through your skull, it's not the WAR award! If that's the case everyone that plays a premium pos already has a leg up!

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 10:27 PM
Love it how you bury a comment hours and hours later to hide it and be a D-Bag. Get it through your skull, it's not the WAR award! If that's the case everyone that plays a premium pos already has a leg up!

What the actual **** are you talking about? I was saying how moving to 3rd hurt the Tigers because he's not a good defender

FortDetroit
09-19-2012, 10:47 PM
What the actual **** are you talking about? I was saying how moving to 3rd hurt the Tigers because he's not a good defender

What everyday lineup would you rather have for your favorite team? Don Kelly (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/28730/don-kelly) at 3rd and Miggy at 1st....or Miggy at 3rd and Prince at 1st? Because if Miggy doesn't change positions, Prince doesn't come here and that's the Tiger's lineup.

sexicano31
09-19-2012, 10:49 PM
What everyday lineup would you rather have for your favorite team? Don Kelly (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/28730/don-kelly) at 3rd and Miggy at 1st....or Miggy at 3rd and Prince at 1st? Because if Miggy doesn't change positions, Prince doesn't come here and that's the Tiger's lineup.

Last I checked the AL has the DH

SB75
09-19-2012, 10:57 PM
What the actual **** are you talking about? I was saying how moving to 3rd hurt the Tigers because he's not a good defender

Dude, you know exactly what I'm talking about. You burried the comment the next morning. Please don't start cursing at me!

I'm sure it wasn't his idea to move to 3B. The team need him to and he did. The theory was simple. having Prince Feilder's bat in the line-up will help us more than Miggy's defense at 3B will hurt us. An since he's not the worst defensive 3B man in MLB and Fielder's bat ( although somewhat disapointing) has played well at 1B, the theory held true.

With all the numbers that favor Miggy it is so un-realistic that you only want to count on WAR.

FortDetroit
09-19-2012, 10:58 PM
Last I checked the AL has the DH

not an option for the tigers. leyland wouldn't DH miggy full time, he has too much respect for him as a player and doesnt believe in players miggys age becoming full time DHs. stupid I know, but it is what it is..leyland is like that. plus, victor martinez will be the full time DH next season. like I said, miggy doesn't move to 3rd...prince doesnt come here. making miggy a 3B was the only option to get prince and still have space for victor when he comes back.

SB75
09-19-2012, 10:59 PM
121 k's in 126 games........ smh.

GOON MUSIC
09-20-2012, 12:36 AM
Miggy for MVP **** you nerds

Bos_Sports4Life
09-20-2012, 04:02 AM
Why dont they just call it the "WAR award" if that's all that matters? The fact that people think that a player's performance can be boiled down to a single man made statistic is hilarious.

AND YES, AS A TIGERS FAN I THINK TROUT DESERVES TO WIN.

its not that WAR is 100% accurate (if its within 1 or so the 2 players can be debated) its the fact trout absolutely CRUSHES everyone..

Hitting is close..thats it.

Add in trouts great fielding at a premium position and his great base running?..Trout wins easily. Add in the positional adjustment? It's trout and quite frankly, its not close

Bos_Sports4Life
09-20-2012, 04:04 AM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/mike-trout-miguel-cabrera-and-measuring-value/

Great article!

dballss
09-20-2012, 04:45 AM
some u guys are so madly in love with trout its ridiculous, al mvp race is mad close triple crown or not

"Ace"ves
09-20-2012, 10:59 AM
That's why a walk is valued less than a hit in wOBA, at least that's what I assume you're arguing.

Though I am arguing for a hit to be worth more than a walk, I am saying that the set value for a hit over a walk is too inaccurate in my opinion. It's situational in my opinion. If there are 2 outs and no one on base, a single is equal to a walk. If there are 2 outs and guy on first, a single and walk are pretty close (majority of time runner will need to wait for another hit to get into home... only gets the advantage of a wild pitch/pass ball/some type of error).

You know what I mean? That's why I like to combine stats such as wOBA with basic stats like HR and RBI to give a more complete picture. Alone, wOBA is worth more, but the more information the merrier

fadedmario
09-20-2012, 11:04 AM
lol at people thinking Mike Trout will win the MVP.

It's last year all over again..

Prepare to be disappointed...

atl_braves_fan
09-20-2012, 11:20 AM
Dude, really? You can look up the def for valuable and best, not the same. You can actually be more valuable to your team without being the best player on your team. Visit our very own braves thread for proof. Most fans woould say Prado has been our most valuable player, Prado is not the best player on our team by far. But he might just be the most valuable for what he does.

But the award is not most valuable player to your team - a subjective measure. The award is for the most valuable player - which is the player that creates the most value on an objective basis. What player could possibly create more objective value than the best player in the league?

Let me say it another way - if you could go back in time to April of this year and draft a new team to play this year only, would you take Trout or Cabrera? Unless you are just being stubborn or you are a die-hard Tigers fan, you would take Trout - because he is more valuable.

FortDetroit
09-20-2012, 02:41 PM
Well, first of all, value is relative...not absolute.

SB75
09-20-2012, 02:58 PM
But the award is not most valuable player to your team - a subjective measure. The award is for the most valuable player - which is the player that creates the most value on an objective basis. What player could possibly create more objective value than the best player in the league?

Let me say it another way - if you could go back in time to April of this year and draft a new team to play this year only, would you take Trout or Cabrera? Unless you are just being stubborn or you are a die-hard Tigers fan, you would take Trout - because he is more valuable.

Dude..... Listen to reason. The most valuable player and the best player are two different things. No matter if you are talking about your team or the mlb. Valuable and best have to different meanings. I'm not a Tigers fan! I'm a Braves fan! Unless I'm being stubborn? Trout didn't play in April (much) and hasn't played all that well in Sept. You want to make this a 4 month award instead of the six month award and call me stubborn, seriously dude.

Driven
09-20-2012, 03:23 PM
Trouts got a .368 OBP in half a month, but yeah, lets not include that month for no reason, even though its better than most players.

SB75
09-20-2012, 03:31 PM
Trouts got a .368 OBP in half a month, but yeah, lets not include that month for no reason, even though its better than most players.

Yea, but in that same month he has a .394 Slgg% giving him a .762 OPS. While Miggy's is 1.261. So like I and others have said Mike didn't play much the first month and the sept month you are speaking of, he hasn't played all that well. We did include it, you have to read the entire debate.

Jeffy25
09-20-2012, 05:20 PM
Dude..... Listen to reason. The most valuable player and the best player are two different things. No matter if you are talking about your team or the mlb. Valuable and best have to different meanings. I'm not a Tigers fan! I'm a Braves fan! Unless I'm being stubborn? Trout didn't play in April (much) and hasn't played all that well in Sept. You want to make this a 4 month award instead of the six month award and call me stubborn, seriously dude.

What if a player hits 25 home runs and bats .600 in one month and is bad in two months and average the other 3 months?

So his full season line is still .350/.450/.700 because of how amazing he was in that one month. Two bad months didn't make him suck. Trout has 10 WAR in basically 4+ great months. That's almost unheard of.


It doesn't matter when the player does the production, he did it.

It's like in 06 when voters voted for Howard because he was good in Sept. Which is just stupid. Pujols was better than Howard the entire year, but because Howard had a great Sept, his bad April is wiped out?

It doesn't matter when you do it, we play 162 games, game 1 is just as important as game 50, and as game 150, and as game 162. They each have the same value as the next one.

atl_braves_fan
09-20-2012, 05:28 PM
Dude..... Listen to reason. The most valuable player and the best player are two different things. No matter if you are talking about your team or the mlb. Valuable and best have to different meanings. I'm not a Tigers fan! I'm a Braves fan! Unless I'm being stubborn? Trout didn't play in April (much) and hasn't played all that well in Sept. You want to make this a 4 month award instead of the six month award and call me stubborn, seriously dude.

I don't care how long it takes a player to create value - if they create the most value in a season, they should win the most valuable player award. What could possibly create more value than being the best player? Trout has been the best player this season and, therefore, he has created significantly more value than Cabrera. For that reason (i.e. Trout is the best player this year), Trout should be the most valuable player in my opinion.

I wasn't intending to call you stubborn personally or to call you a die hard Tigers fan - I know you are a Braves fan. I apologize if my sloppy writing came off that I was name calling - that was not my intention.

Instead, I was saying that the only way that a hypothetical person would make the hypothetical choice to take Cabrera's performance this year over Trout's performance this year in a hypothetical redraft is if that hypothetical person has some special attachment to Cabrera or they are stubborn.

You didn't answer that question, by the way. If you were starting a new team for one year - without considering age or contract, would you rather have Trout's performance or Cabrera's?

Jeffy25
09-20-2012, 05:38 PM
lol at people thinking Mike Trout will win the MVP.

It's last year all over again..

Prepare to be disappointed...

A year ago you said Miggy should win the MVP, in case you don't remember....

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?p=19308200&highlight=cabrera#post19308200


.344, 30 HR's, 105 RBI's, 1.034 OPS, .450 OBP, 47 doubles - Miguel Cabrera

In your posts you said you would have no problem with Ellsbury winning, and that Miggy deserved it.

You never once said Verlander should win it. You never predicted it, you never called for it. You said Miggy should and will win it. And now you are telling us that Trout won't win it and saying you were right last year? I don't see the connection.


Trout deserves the award this year. He is equal offensively to Miggy, and is better defensively, at a harder position, and is the better base runner. Trout has been the best player in the American League this year.

It doesn't mean Miggy won't win, you have some traditional voters that will only look at the Triple Crown numbers, but we all know that the MVP voters have come a long way over the years. Trout very well could win it, and in my mind he deserves to.

2-ONE-5
09-20-2012, 05:48 PM
What does the pitching staff and lineup have anything to do with Trouts performance?

he is more protected in the lineup then Miggy and if they had a crap staff they wouldnt be competitng for a playoff spot most likely making even hardly in the MVP discussion

2-ONE-5
09-20-2012, 05:51 PM
What if a player hits 25 home runs and bats .600 in one month and is bad in two months and average the other 3 months?

So his full season line is still .350/.450/.700 because of how amazing he was in that one month. Two bad months didn't make him suck. Trout has 10 WAR in basically 4+ great months. That's almost unheard of.


It doesn't matter when the player does the production, he did it.

It's like in 06 when voters voted for Howard because he was good in Sept. Which is just stupid. Pujols was better than Howard the entire year, but because Howard had a great Sept, his bad April is wiped out?

It doesn't matter when you do it, we play 162 games, game 1 is just as important as game 50, and as game 150, and as game 162. They each have the same value as the next one.

agree and disagree. the pressure is on in the games at the end of the year and Howard carried that Phils team and deserved that MVP.

Fly
09-20-2012, 05:54 PM
he is more protected in the lineup then Miggy and if they had a crap staff they wouldnt be competitng for a playoff spot most likely making even hardly in the MVP discussion

I remember a few months ago Jeffy started a thread about the fact that protection in the lineup means nothing. If he could post that link, I'm sure it would help explain this a lot better than I can. I mean, look at Ryan Braun. He's having an arguably better year this year than last year without the "protection" of Prince Fielder.

sexicano31
09-20-2012, 05:55 PM
he is more protected in the lineup then Miggy and if they had a crap staff they wouldnt be competitng for a playoff spot most likely making even hardly in the MVP discussion

Protection doesnt exist. And if it did, Miggy has Fielder behind him and Trout has Erick Aybar hitting behind him.

What does the pitching staff have to do with Trouts performance?

sexicano31
09-20-2012, 05:57 PM
[/B]

agree and disagree. the pressure is on in the games at the end of the year and Howard carried that Phils team and deserved that MVP.

Its arguable that he deserved it. Pujols was better and Utley was better than Howard that year. The Phillies also finished 12 out of the East that year and 5 out of the wild card so its not like there was much pressure on Howard

fadedmario
09-20-2012, 06:23 PM
A year ago you said Miggy should win the MVP, in case you don't remember....

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?p=19308200&highlight=cabrera#post19308200



In your posts you said you would have no problem with Ellsbury winning, and that Miggy deserved it.

You never once said Verlander should win it. You never predicted it, you never called for it. You said Miggy should and will win it. And now you are telling us that Trout won't win it and saying you were right last year? I don't see the connection.


Trout deserves the award this year. He is equal offensively to Miggy, and is better defensively, at a harder position, and is the better base runner. Trout has been the best player in the American League this year.

It doesn't mean Miggy won't win, you have some traditional voters that will only look at the Triple Crown numbers, but we all know that the MVP voters have come a long way over the years. Trout very well could win it, and in my mind he deserves to.

That's shocking you feel that way. I'm totally surprised by this...

Trout won't win it. Can't wait to see the aftermath on here when the WAR leader doesn't win.

Patiently waiting..

FYI: Never realized the word "clown" warranted an infraction on here. Awesome.. :bs:

Nomar
09-20-2012, 06:33 PM
Last year Ellsbury hit more HRs than Trout did and played better in the field, but didnt win MVP solely because the Sox didnt make the postseason. Granted he had a lower OPS and a few less SBs, but they were pretty darn close performance-wise.

This year Trout will win it in the same situation just because hes ESPN's favorite player to talk about. If it was another player on a team that isnt contending having this season, Cano, Beltre, or Sale would be MVP.

Jeffy25
09-20-2012, 06:49 PM
Last year Ellsbury hit more HRs than Trout did and played better in the field, but didnt win MVP solely because the Sox didnt make the postseason. Granted he had a lower OPS and a few less SBs, but they were pretty darn close performance-wise.

This year Trout will win it in the same situation just because hes ESPN's favorite player to talk about. If it was another player on a team that isnt contending having this season, Cano, Beltre, or Sale would be MVP.

Just to compare Ellsbury last year to Trout this year (mind you Trout still has about 15ish games left)

Trout - .327/.395/.556 - .419 wOBA, 173 wRC+, 115 RC, 13.0 UZR, 24 DRS, 2.5 dWAR, 6.1 BSR, 46 SB, 9.4 fWAR, 10.2 rWAR

Ellsbury 11 - .321/.376/.552 - .402 wOBA, 150 wRC+, 132 RC, 15.7 UZR, 7 DRS, 1.1 dWAR, 1.2 BSR, 39 SB, 9.4 fWAR, 8.0 rWAR


Trout is spanking Ellsbury too

And this doesn't include the fact that Ellsbury had more competition (Bautista, Verlander and Miggy were closer to him last year than anyone that is competing against Trout this year.



Also, the argument that Ellsbury couldn't carry the Red Sox into the playoffs.
This is how Ellsbury did during the Sox 7-20 collapse
.358/.400/.667 - .443 wOBA, 178 wRC+

He was far from the issue, he did everything he could have done to help them finish out the season.

SB75
09-20-2012, 07:11 PM
I don't care how long it takes a player to create value - if they create the most value in a season, they should win the most valuable player award. What could possibly create more value than being the best player? Trout has been the best player this season and, therefore, he has created significantly more value than Cabrera. For that reason (i.e. Trout is the best player this year), Trout should be the most valuable player in my opinion.

I wasn't intending to call you stubborn personally or to call you a die hard Tigers fan - I know you are a Braves fan. I apologize if my sloppy writing came off that I was name calling - that was not my intention.

Instead, I was saying that the only way that a hypothetical person would make the hypothetical choice to take Cabrera's performance this year over Trout's performance this year in a hypothetical redraft is if that hypothetical person has some special attachment to Cabrera or they are stubborn.

You didn't answer that question, by the way. If you were starting a new team for one year - without considering age or contract, would you rather have Trout's performance or Cabrera's?

I would take Miggy's, he's done it all year and Trout has not. Again Trout's numbers have declined over the last month +, Miggy's has not. Who's to say that would not have continued if he played the entire season? You just can't take what Trout did in 2-3 month and say it translates to what Miggy did over the entire season. If the numbers where closer, I would say Trout deserves it because defense and baserunnig, but they are not! Trout has been better than Miggy at the plate for 2 mo of the season. 2! One more time 2! The month that Trout was all world his line was fantastic! It was also the month when since he became a full-time player he had the least AB's.:rolleyes: Just saying, Is it MVP for the year, or who gets off to the best start?

All this becomes mute if Miggy continue the way he's playing and Trout continue's his play.

ciaban
09-20-2012, 07:12 PM
Why dont they just call it the "WAR award" if that's all that matters? The fact that people think that a player's performance can be boiled down to a single man made statistic is hilarious.

AND YES, AS A TIGERS FAN I THINK TROUT DESERVES TO WIN.

i agree, handing out an award based on 1 saber stat is as bad as when they gave it to whoever had the highest batting average, which is as ridiculous now as it was then.

sexicano31
09-20-2012, 07:23 PM
I would take Miggy's, he's done it all year and Trout has not. Again Trout's numbers have declined over the last month +, Miggy's has not. Who's to say that would not have continued if he played the entire season? You just can't take what Trout did in 2-3 month and say it translates to what Miggy did over the entire season. If the numbers where closer, I would say Trout deserves it because defense and baserunnig, but they are not! Trout has been better than Miggy at the plate for 2 mo of the season. 2! One more time 2! The month that Trout was all world his line was fantastic! It was also the month when since he became a full-time player he had the least AB's.:rolleyes: Just saying, Is it MVP for the year, or who gets off to the best start?

All this becomes mute if Miggy continue the way he's playing and Trout continue's his play.

We can go month by month:
Trout:
April/March(3 games) .091/.167/.182/.348
May: .324/.385/.556/.941
June: .372/.419/.531/.950
July: .392/.455/.804/1.259
August: .284/.366/.500/.866
September: .273/.368/.394/.762 with quite a few games to play

So for 2 months he was awesome, 1 month amazing, 1 month great with September being down with games to play

Miggy:
April: .298/.368/.571/.940
May: .331/.371/.468/.839
June: .311/.387/.604/.990
July: .344/.409/.677/1.086
August: .357/.429/.663/1.092
September: .371/.438/.823/1.261

Cabrera has played 21 more games than Trout. Both of them have performed at this high level all season, each having a HUGE month(September for Miggy and July for Trout). As well as having one "down" month(May for Miggy and August for Trout.) The rest of the months were consistent. Factor in Trouts defense, which saves runs, and baserunning, which creates more runs, and Trout is the MVP

Jeffy25
09-20-2012, 09:42 PM
I would take Miggy's, he's done it all year and Trout has not. Again Trout's numbers have declined over the last month +, Miggy's has not. Who's to say that would not have continued if he played the entire season? You just can't take what Trout did in 2-3 month and say it translates to what Miggy did over the entire season. If the numbers where closer, I would say Trout deserves it because defense and baserunnig, but they are not! Trout has been better than Miggy at the plate for 2 mo of the season. 2! One more time 2! The month that Trout was all world his line was fantastic! It was also the month when since he became a full-time player he had the least AB's.:rolleyes: Just saying, Is it MVP for the year, or who gets off to the best start?

All this becomes mute if Miggy continue the way he's playing and Trout continue's his play.

Offensively, they are almost equal

Trout - .419 wOBA, 173 wRC+
Cabrera - .422 wOBA, 170 wRC+

Almost identical


To the rest, it doesn't matter. If Trout can put up 10 WAR in 4 months, and do 0 WAR in the other 2 months, and Cabrera just does 1.5 WAR each month.

Who is the better player?

Doesn't matter when you do it, just matters that you did it. The season doesn't keep going, it's over at 162 games. Where their numbers are on that date, that's where you define the most valuable player in the league.

For Cabrera to catch Trout, he has to out-hit him by a good amount to make up for the base running and defense where Trout is killing him. He can't be just equal to him offensively.

Jeffy25
09-20-2012, 09:48 PM
We can go month by month:
Trout:
April/March(3 games) .091/.167/.182/.348
May: .324/.385/.556/.941
June: .372/.419/.531/.950
July: .392/.455/.804/1.259
August: .284/.366/.500/.866
September: .273/.368/.394/.762 with quite a few games to play

So for 2 months he was awesome, 1 month amazing, 1 month great with September being down with games to play

Miggy:
April: .298/.368/.571/.940
May: .331/.371/.468/.839
June: .311/.387/.604/.990
July: .344/.409/.677/1.086
August: .357/.429/.663/1.092
September: .371/.438/.823/1.261

Cabrera has played 21 more games than Trout. Both of them have performed at this high level all season, each having a HUGE month(September for Miggy and July for Trout). As well as having one "down" month(May for Miggy and August for Trout.) The rest of the months were consistent. Factor in Trouts defense, which saves runs, and baserunning, which creates more runs, and Trout is the MVP

Something funny to add

Miggy has created 386 outs this season (not including base running)
Trout has created 351 out this season

If we are going to penalize Trout for not having the plate appearances, the RBI's......then shouldn't we penalize Miggy for creating more outs?


Because neither should be added in this conversation, because neither matters.

SB75
09-21-2012, 02:05 AM
I^^^^^^

You guys say lets go month by month.... Okay.... Lets really do that.

April: Miggy.... By .590 in ops
May: Trout.... By .144 in OPS
June: Miggy ....By .041 in OPS
July: Trout .... By .173 in OPS..... Trouts outstanding month
August: Miggy... By .226 In OPS
Sept:....Miggy... By .499 In OPS..... Miggy's outstanding month

These are b4 Thursday's games. But no it's not that close. Miggy has been more consistent through the season and has a better month going than Trout has had. Not only that trout has only bested him in 2 mo. An he has never had a month that he bested him .200 + in OPS and Miggy has done that going on the 3rd month.

You guys are shortening the season to favor Trout! I agree defense and base running should matter, but should doing it all season ( which Trout has not) and when it counts ( which Trout has not)!
HOW CAN YOU BE THE MVP WHEN YOU DON'T DO IT WITH THE DIV CROWN AND PLAY-OFF'S ON THE LINE?

IT IS NOT THE WAR AWARD!

Guppyfighter
09-21-2012, 02:26 AM
Dammit Trout, make the Angels bullpen better!

Texas Holders
09-21-2012, 03:04 AM
I^^^^^^

You guys say lets go month by month.... Okay.... Lets really do that.

April: Miggy.... By .590 in ops
May: Trout.... By .144 in OPS
June: Miggy ....By .041 in OPS
July: Trout .... By .173 in OPS..... Trouts outstanding month
August: Miggy... By .226 In OPS
Sept:....Miggy... By .499 In OPS..... Miggy's outstanding month

These are b4 Thursday's games. But no it's not that close. Miggy has been more consistent through the season and has a better month going than Trout has had. Not only that trout has only bested him in 2 mo. An he has never had a month that he bested him .200 + in OPS and Miggy has done that going on the 3rd month.

You guys are shortening the season to favor Trout! I agree defense and base running should matter, but should doing it all season ( which Trout has not) and when it counts ( which Trout has not)!
HOW CAN YOU BE THE MVP WHEN YOU DON'T DO IT WITH THE DIV CROWN AND PLAY-OFF'S ON THE LINE?

IT IS NOT THE WAR AWARD!

You should use a park adjusted stat such as wRC+:

Trout
A: -5
M: 163
J: 182
J: 252
A: 150
S: 127

Cabrera
A: 147
M: 130
J: 165
J: 187
A: 191
S: 226

Season
Trout: 171
Cabrera: 170

They were each better for 3 months, Trout had the best month, It's a dead heat for the season. But that is just offense, Trout easily wins base running and defense.

Jeffy25
09-21-2012, 06:02 AM
Why are we still trying to break this down by performance by month? Monthly performace doesn't matter. It's full season performance.

Jeffy25
09-21-2012, 06:04 AM
I^^^^^^

You guys say lets go month by month.... Okay.... Lets really do that.

April: Miggy.... By .590 in ops
May: Trout.... By .144 in OPS
June: Miggy ....By .041 in OPS
July: Trout .... By .173 in OPS..... Trouts outstanding month
August: Miggy... By .226 In OPS
Sept:....Miggy... By .499 In OPS..... Miggy's outstanding month

These are b4 Thursday's games. But no it's not that close. Miggy has been more consistent through the season and has a better month going than Trout has had. Not only that trout has only bested him in 2 mo. An he has never had a month that he bested him .200 + in OPS and Miggy has done that going on the 3rd month.

You guys are shortening the season to favor Trout! I agree defense and base running should matter, but should doing it all season ( which Trout has not) and when it counts ( which Trout has not)!
HOW CAN YOU BE THE MVP WHEN YOU DON'T DO IT WITH THE DIV CROWN AND PLAY-OFF'S ON THE LINE?

IT IS NOT THE WAR AWARD!

I agree it's not the WAR award.

But when each player is equal offensively, and one is vastly better at everything else in the game, it should be pretty obvious who the choice is, correct?

Offense - Equal
Defense - Trout
BaseRunning - Trout
Positional Value - Trout

Not much else inside the players control beyond this.

SB75
09-21-2012, 07:36 AM
I agree it's not the WAR award.

But when each player is equal offensively, and one is vastly better at everything else in the game, it should be pretty obvious who the choice is, correct?

Offense - Equal
Defense - Trout
BaseRunning - Trout
Positional Value - Trout

Not much else inside the players control beyond this.

They are not even offensively, no matter how you try to say it! One has done it for the entire year and one has not. One has shown a sharp decline in his numbers in the last month and a half and one has not.....

Simply put...... If the voters looked at things the way you did, Jacoby would have won it last year. And he did it the entire year, 158 games.

Jeffy25
09-21-2012, 07:57 AM
They are not even offensively, no matter how you try to say it! One has done it for the entire year and one has not. One has shown a sharp decline in his numbers in the last month and a half and one has not.....

Simply put...... If the voters looked at things the way you did, Jacoby would have won it last year. And he did it the entire year, 158 games.

I felt Bautista or Ellsbury did deserve it last year :shrug:


They are equal offensively

Trout - .416 wOBA, 171 wRC+
Cabrera - .421 wOBA, 169 wRC+

I don't know what the argument is that they are not equal offensively this season. Cabrera has better counting stats because he has played 21 more games, but their offensive values are almost identical.

Then when you adjust for their huge difference defensively
Trout - 24 Defensive Runs Saved
Miggy - -5 Defensive Runs Saved (that's negative for those scoring at home)
and Trout plays the more demanding position (although some would argue they are close to equal on the defensive spectrum).


If your only argument against Trout is by splitting the months, that isn't going to work. It's a 162 game season, we have to total their values for the entire 6 months.


But if you want to play that game, here is how it breaks down by WAR per month

April
Trout - -0.1
Miggy - 0.7

May
Trout - 1.8
Miggy - 0.7

June
Trout - 2.1
Miggy - 1.2

July
Trout - 2.9
Miggy - 1.4

August
Trout - 1.8
Miggy - 1.5

Sept
Trout - 0.7
Miggy - 1.3


Total
Trout - 9.2
Miggy - 6.8


So Trout has been better every month but April (and he wasn't called up until the final three days of the month) and Sept, which isn't over yet.

Trout has been the better player all year long. Equal offensively, and a huge advantage for Trout defensively and in regards to base running.


Still don't like WAR?

How about net run values?
April
Trout - 1
Miggy - 15

May
Trout - 28
Miggy - 20

June
Trout - 31
Miggy - 19

July
Trout - 38
Miggy - 23

August
Trout - 28
Miggy - 24

Sept
Trout - 15
Miggy - 19

Total
Trout - 151
Miggy - 110

That is almost eye-popping

So even though Trout missed all of April, he has still be worth more positive runs than Miggy. Btw, these net runs don't even include base running and Trout's 46 stolen bases.

There is no solid argument for Miggy for MVP. Not when you factor in each as a complete player, and who has been the best and most valuable player in the American League this year.

This debate is easier than any other off-season award. I'm not saying Trout will win. I'm saying he clearly should though.

SB75
09-21-2012, 09:01 AM
I felt Bautista or Ellsbury did deserve it last year :shrug:


They are equal offensively

Trout - .416 wOBA, 171 wRC+
Cabrera - .421 wOBA, 169 wRC+

I don't know what the argument is that they are not equal offensively this season. Cabrera has better counting stats because he has played 21 more games, but their offensive values are almost identical.

Then when you adjust for their huge difference defensively
Trout - 24 Defensive Runs Saved
Miggy - -5 Defensive Runs Saved (that's negative for those scoring at home)
and Trout plays the more demanding position (although some would argue they are close to equal on the defensive spectrum).


If your only argument against Trout is by splitting the months, that isn't going to work. It's a 162 game season, we have to total their values for the entire 6 months.


But if you want to play that game, here is how it breaks down by WAR per month

April
Trout - -0.1
Miggy - 0.7

May
Trout - 1.8
Miggy - 0.7

June
Trout - 2.1
Miggy - 1.2

July
Trout - 2.9
Miggy - 1.4

August
Trout - 1.8
Miggy - 1.5

Sept
Trout - 0.7
Miggy - 1.3


Total
Trout - 9.2
Miggy - 6.8


So Trout has been better every month but April (and he wasn't called up until the final three days of the month) and Sept, which isn't over yet.

Trout has been the better player all year long. Equal offensively, and a huge advantage for Trout defensively and in regards to base running.


Still don't like WAR?

How about net run values?
April
Trout - 1
Miggy - 15

May
Trout - 28
Miggy - 20

June
Trout - 31
Miggy - 19

July
Trout - 38
Miggy - 23

August
Trout - 28
Miggy - 24

Sept
Trout - 15
Miggy - 19

Total
Trout - 151
Miggy - 110

That is almost eye-popping

So even though Trout missed all of April, he has still be worth more positive runs than Miggy. Btw, these net runs don't even include base running and Trout's 46 stolen bases.

There is no solid argument for Miggy for MVP. Not when you factor in each as a complete player, and who has been the best and most valuable player in the American League this year.

This debate is easier than any other off-season award. I'm not saying Trout will win. I'm saying he clearly should though.

Dude you are missing the point with all your advanced stats..... You can not say they are the same offensively.


Answer this question: With Trout not doing anything in April and him slipping in August and now Sept, is that not clear evidence that he may not have been able to substain his play all year long?


Saying there is no solid evidence for Miggy, is just saying I have closed my eyes to all but my choice.

Jeffy25
09-21-2012, 09:24 AM
Dude you are missing the point with all your advanced stats..... You can not say they are the same offensively.


Answer this question: With Trout not doing anything in April and him slipping in August and now Sept, is that not clear evidence that he may not have been able to substain his play all year long?

Who cares what he is able to sustain. This is 2012 only that we are talking about.

We play 162 games, whoever produces the most value in those 162 games should be your MVP. If a player does all of their production in 2 months and isn't good for the other 4 months, but is the best player over the course of the 6 months because of how great their 2 months were, does it really matter?

It isn't a consistency award.

Complete hypothetical to illustrate

Player A
April .200/.300/.400 - 3 HR
May .450/.600/1.000 - 18 HR
June .450/.600/1.000 - 18 HR
July .200/.300/.400 - 3 HR
August .200/.300/.400 - 3 HR
Sept .200/.300/.400 - 3 HR

.283/.400/.667 - 48HR

Player B
April .270/.380/.600 - 6 HR
May .270/.380/.600 - 6 HR
June .270/.380/.600 - 6 HR
July .270/.380/.600 - 6 HR
August .270/.380/.600 - 6 HR
Sept .270/.380/.600 - 6 HR

.270/.380/.600 - 36 HR

I know it's a hypothetical, but Player A clearly had the better season than Player B, even if Player B is more consistent, his season wasn't as good, nor as productive.

Obviously this is an extreme example. Trout hasn't been that bad in any one month (nor that good) and Cabrera hasn't been anywhere close to that consistent.


The point..................you can be soo good in two months that you can carry weaker months if that's what happens. We don't play 6 individual seasons in the baseball year. The award doesn't go to whoever was the player of the month the most. It's who was the best player in the league this season.

In 2012 in the American League? It's been pretty clearly Trout. They are close to equal offensively (I'm not making that up, there is plenty of information out there available for the masses that supports that) and Trout is kicking Cabrera in the twat defensively and in regards to base running. To the point where they don't compare at all any longer.

For Cabrera to be the MVP over Trout in any given season, he is going to have to really out-hit him. He isn't a good base running or defensive ball player, and Trout is.

As a baseline, Trout is always going to have about a 30 run head start over Cabrera because of his base running and his defense. Fortunately for Cabrera, the most value a position player can create in a season is offensively. Miggy needs to create about 150 runs of offense to be the MVP, and Trout needs to be below 120. That is the value in being a gold glove caliber centerfielder vs a poor fielder third basemen who should be at first. And the added bonus of being a guy that can steal 40-60 bases in a season.

Miggy arguably should have won last year. I wouldn't have complained very much personally. I also am not upset that Verlander won. Last year, there were 4 guys that arguably deserved the award (Bautista, Verlander, Miggy, Ellsbury) Any one of them winning was going to be fine because of how close they all were. Much like the NL Cy Young this year (at this point), so many guys are deserving and there is no clear-cut winner. AL MVP 2012 as of today? Trout is spanking Cabrera.

sexicano31
09-21-2012, 10:47 AM
So wait...because the Angels didn't call him up in April he's going to be punished?

They both did it all year long. What the **** are you talking about.

atl_braves_fan
09-21-2012, 11:40 AM
I would take Miggy's, he's done it all year and Trout has not. Again Trout's numbers have declined over the last month +, Miggy's has not. Who's to say that would not have continued if he played the entire season? You just can't take what Trout did in 2-3 month and say it translates to what Miggy did over the entire season. If the numbers where closer, I would say Trout deserves it because defense and baserunnig, but they are not! Trout has been better than Miggy at the plate for 2 mo of the season. 2! One more time 2! The month that Trout was all world his line was fantastic! It was also the month when since he became a full-time player he had the least AB's.:rolleyes: Just saying, Is it MVP for the year, or who gets off to the best start?

All this becomes mute if Miggy continue the way he's playing and Trout continue's his play.

One of the enormous flaws in the logic of this argument is that WAR is not a rate stat. It is a counting stat. Therefore, it is a huge accomplishment that Trout has added greater value in a shorter amount of time, not a detriment as you claim.

Perhaps I oversimplified earlier when I said that MVP and Best Player mean the same thing. The truth is that while they may not mean the same thing, they will always be the same player. To illustrate:


most valuable player = player that creates the most value for his team
player that creates the most value for his team = best player
therefore, best player = most valuable player


There is no way that you can say that because Miguel Cabrera created less value, but over a longer period of time, he should be the MVP over Trout. The voters may give it to Miggy because a lot of them are "old school" which is just some code for being willfully blind, but that doesn't mean he will deserve it.

atl_braves_fan
09-21-2012, 12:02 PM
HOW CAN YOU BE THE MVP WHEN YOU DON'T DO IT WITH THE DIV CROWN AND PLAY-OFF'S ON THE LINE?

IT IS NOT THE WAR AWARD!

FWIW, it's also not a team award.

By the way, the Angels have a better record than the Tigers and are 1.5 games up on the Tigers in the wild card race. How could you possibly consider the performance of the Rangers and the White Sox relative to the performance of the Angels and the Tigers, respectively, in this discussion?

Jeffy25
09-21-2012, 12:33 PM
FWIW, it's also not a team award.

By the way, the Angels have a better record than the Tigers and are 1.5 games up on the Tigers in the wild card race. How could you possibly consider the performance of the Rangers and the White Sox relative to the performance of the Angels and the Tigers, respectively, in this discussion?

Absolutely.

And it's completely, 100% an individual award.

I guess we should fault Trout for not pitching as well as Cabrera?

Or maybe he should be blamed for playing in a division with the Rangers instead of playing in a division with the White Sox


amirite?

LongIslandIcedZ
09-21-2012, 01:17 PM
I agree that when considering all things, Trout is probably deserving of the MVP.

Having said that, if a player actually gets the Triple Crown, do you really not expect him to win the MVP?

Jeffy25
09-21-2012, 01:25 PM
I agree that when considering all things, Trout is probably deserving of the MVP.

Having said that, if a player actually gets the Triple Crown, do you really not expect him to win the MVP?

If Miggy gets the Triple Crown. I will 100% fully expect him to be the leagues MVP, they will vote for him hands-down.

But it doesn't mean he deserved it.

ciaban
09-21-2012, 01:36 PM
personally i am angry the angels called him up in may, if they had waited till june we could have gotten another year out of him, i mean, it would all but kill his mvp chances, but his personal awards don't mean crap when it comes at an extra 20+ million to the team

Also, war is against miggy because he is playing 3rd instead of first where he probably would have been at least league average, 3rd base is the hardest position to play after SS, ask yourselves this, how would trouty mouth have done if he had to have played 3rd? i don't think he would have been such a plus defender.

ciaban
09-21-2012, 01:44 PM
I agree it's not the WAR award.

But when each player is equal offensively, and one is vastly better at everything else in the game, it should be pretty obvious who the choice is, correct?

Offense - Equal
Defense - Trout
BaseRunning - Trout
Positional Value - Trout

Not much else inside the players control beyond this.
well first of all i think that miggy is better with the bat and that trouts numbers will continue to decrease as the season goes on, but they have both done well in the batters box, also, are u assuming that defense and base running are both worth the same as offense? or that them together is worth the same as offense?

Jeffy25
09-21-2012, 01:48 PM
well first of all i think that miggy is better with the bat and that trouts numbers will continue to decrease as the season goes on, but they have both done well in the batters box, also, are u assuming that defense and base running are both worth the same as offense? or that them together is worth the same as offense?

They are worth no where close to the same.

A run created on offense is worth the same as a run saved on defense. However, runs are created at a rate of about 5 to 1 offense to defense, and about 12 to 1 offense to base running.

So it's much easier to create runs on offense than it is to save runs on defense or create them with base running. But if offense is equal, and one player is saving runs defensively and creating runs with base running, then he is obviously the better choice.

The net run totals were listed above. Trout is over 150, Miggy is around 110.


Just to compare in a typical season
The best hitters will create somewhere around 150 runs of offense.
The best defenders will save somewhere around 30 runs of defense a season (like Brendan Ryan)
The best base runners will create about an additional 10 runs of base running a season

If a player created a positive 200 runs in a single season, he would be a beast.

Jeffy25
09-21-2012, 02:00 PM
personally i am angry the angels called him up in may, if they had waited till june we could have gotten another year out of him, i mean, it would all but kill his mvp chances, but his personal awards don't mean crap when it comes at an extra 20+ million to the team



He was called up last year, so his service clock was already started. They would have had to wait until like August to delay him a year.


Also, war is against miggy because he is playing 3rd instead of first where he probably would have been at least league average, 3rd base is the hardest position to play after SS, ask yourselves this, how would trouty mouth have done if he had to have played 3rd? i don't think he would have been such a plus defender.
that's not true.

Players get positional adjustment based on the defensive spectrum

Miggy was given +15.0 runs in WAR for playing third base instead of first base. While he has been a -5 run defender at third, that adjustment is like saying Miggy would have been a +10 defender at first base (which might be true).

Also the defensive spectrum, center is harder than third

C
SS
CF
2B
3B
RF
LF
1B

3rd is 5th, center is 3rd

Also, Trout could probably play short if asked, but they are very different positions, much of Trout's great defense in center is because he is so fast. And what's crazy is that he is considered a better defender than even guys that are defensive first outfielders playing every day because of their great defense. That's how great he is in center. Pretty crazy.

Nomar
09-21-2012, 02:39 PM
Just to compare Ellsbury last year to Trout this year (mind you Trout still has about 15ish games left)

Trout - .327/.395/.556 - .419 wOBA, 173 wRC+, 115 RC, 13.0 UZR, 24 DRS, 2.5 dWAR, 6.1 BSR, 46 SB, 9.4 fWAR, 10.2 rWAR

Ellsbury 11 - .321/.376/.552 - .402 wOBA, 150 wRC+, 132 RC, 15.7 UZR, 7 DRS, 1.1 dWAR, 1.2 BSR, 39 SB, 9.4 fWAR, 8.0 rWAR


Trout is spanking Ellsbury too

And this doesn't include the fact that Ellsbury had more competition (Bautista, Verlander and Miggy were closer to him last year than anyone that is competing against Trout this year.



Also, the argument that Ellsbury couldn't carry the Red Sox into the playoffs.
This is how Ellsbury did during the Sox 7-20 collapse
.358/.400/.667 - .443 wOBA, 178 wRC+

He was far from the issue, he did everything he could have done to help them finish out the season.

I wouldnt really call that spanking, but he is obviously doing better. I would say Miggy is just as clos to Trout as he was to Ellsbury too, especially given the triple crown possibility.

I think that a team making the playoffs should have nothing to do with who wins MVP anyways.

On the collapse note... no player can carry his team when the pitching staff gives up 8 runs on average per game in a month.

Jeffy25
09-21-2012, 03:02 PM
I wouldnt really call that spanking, but he is obviously doing better. I would say Miggy is just as clos to Trout as he was to Ellsbury too, especially given the triple crown possibility.
Possibly debatable, but alright


I think that a team making the playoffs should have nothing to do with who wins MVP anyways.Correct


On the collapse note... no player can carry his team when the pitching staff gives up 8 runs on average per game in a month.

Correct

SB75
09-21-2012, 03:44 PM
FWIW, it's also not a team award.

By the way, the Angels have a better record than the Tigers and are 1.5 games up on the Tigers in the wild card race. How could you possibly consider the performance of the Rangers and the White Sox relative to the performance of the Angels and the Tigers, respectively, in this discussion?

You are changing the point. He personaly is not playing as well with these things on the line. Miggy is. You know I know the records of these teams......

SB75
09-21-2012, 03:46 PM
You guys seriously just need to start a War/advanced stats thread if that is what you want to debate. Seriously, you can have that one, I won't even enter it!

atl_braves_fan
09-21-2012, 04:00 PM
You guys seriously just need to start a War/advanced stats thread if that is what you want to debate. Seriously, you can have that one, I won't even enter it!

I think you are missing the point. Nobody is saying that it is a WAR award.

People are saying that if you look at the whole picture (i.e. advanced stats, traditional stats, base running, defense, etc), you can't really make a convincing argument for Cabrera being more valuable than Trout.

It just so happens that certain advanced stats like WAR have much greater accuracy in quantifying the actual value of a player than things like RBIs, batting average or homers.

StriveGreatness
09-21-2012, 04:05 PM
You guys seriously just need to start a War/advanced stats thread if that is what you want to debate. Seriously, you can have that one, I won't even enter it!

They have a whole forum dedicated to sabermetrics and given how much people love them, you would think it would be packed full everyday. Last post was on September 7th. :facepalm:

Det4Life
09-21-2012, 04:18 PM
Most in this thread go into more detail with stats than the voters themselves will. :facepalm:

atl_braves_fan
09-21-2012, 04:44 PM
They have a whole forum dedicated to sabermetrics and given how much people love them, you would think it would be packed full everyday. Last post was on September 7th. :facepalm:

That's because few people like the stats for the stats' sake. Most, including me, like to look at the whole picture - which includes, but is not limited to, advanced stats.

Det4Life
09-21-2012, 04:54 PM
Gardenhire "I'm just tipping my hat to Cabrera, he should be the MVP if we were 2stop right now. There is no doubt in my mind he should be"

Gardenhire on Sabermetics "If your going for a triple crown and u have his numbers, you can SABER all u want, those numbers blow your brain"

per @riger1984 (Detroit radio guy)

sexicano31
09-21-2012, 05:19 PM
Well thats fun. Gardenhire doesnt vote for the MVP tho

Det4Life
09-21-2012, 05:35 PM
Well thats fun. Gardenhire doesnt vote for the MVP tho

Nope, and neither do you.... or anyone in here. That's the point. :clap:

sexicano31
09-21-2012, 05:36 PM
Nope, and neither do you.... or anyone in here. That's the point. :clap:

You know for a fact that no one here has a vote?

Det4Life
09-21-2012, 05:38 PM
You know for a fact that no one here has a vote?

I don't. But, I do know you don't have a vote, which is good, considering you talk as if you do. :facepalm:

sexicano31
09-21-2012, 05:39 PM
I don't. But, I do know you don't have a vote, which is good, considering you talk as if you do. :facepalm:

You know for a fact that I dont?

Det4Life
09-21-2012, 05:46 PM
Really? How do you know that? How would you know who anyone on this site is. You seem so sure of yourself. How do you know I dont have a vote?

Instead of asking stupid questions, why don't you prove to everyone that you have a vote? That's right, because you don't... and you'd rather just troll. :facepalm:

Done arguing with you.

Miggy > Trout

sexicano31
09-21-2012, 05:48 PM
Instead of asking stupid questions, why don't you prove to everyone that you have a vote? That's right, because you don't... and you'd rather just troll. :facepalm:

Done arguing with you.

Miggy > Trout

If I were indeed a writer why would I reveal my identity? That would cause unneeded attention from people on this site and other social media sites.

Please provide evidence why Miggy>Trout other than RBI

Mike515089
09-21-2012, 05:49 PM
Lol how did anyone ever determain a great baseball player before WAR :facepalm:

sexicano31
09-21-2012, 05:50 PM
Lol how did anyone ever determain a great baseball player before WAR :facepalm:

RBI and BA

Det4Life
09-21-2012, 05:53 PM
RBI and BA

^ There's why Miggy is MVP, plus possibly a Triple Crown. :clap:

sexicano31
09-21-2012, 05:54 PM
^ There's why Miggy is MVP, plus possibly a Triple Crown. :clap:

Except BA doesnt tell you much and RBI tells you jack ****. So theres that

StriveGreatness
09-21-2012, 07:49 PM
Who has a better shot at AL Cy Young: Jered Weaver or Rick Porcello?

Because WAR tells me Rick Porcello is more deserving lol

Det4Life
09-21-2012, 07:55 PM
Who has a better shot at AL Cy Young: Jered Weaver or Rick Porcello?

Because WAR tells me Rick Porcello is more deserving lol

LOL :clap:

FortDetroit
09-21-2012, 08:15 PM
Someone told me advanced stats say Jhonny Peralta is one of the better fielding SS's in the league as well. Don't know how to double check that, but if true...LOL.

StriveGreatness
09-21-2012, 08:21 PM
Someone told me advanced stats say Jhonny Peralta is one of the better fielding SS's in the league as well. Don't know how to double check that, but if true...LOL.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

He's 3rd behind Clint Barmes and Brendan Ryan. Apparently he's a great defender..:facepalm:

Such a flawed stat and it factors into WAR

fadedmario
09-21-2012, 08:23 PM
Who has a better shot at AL Cy Young: Jered Weaver or Rick Porcello?

Because WAR tells me Rick Porcello is more deserving lol

:laugh:

FortDetroit
09-21-2012, 08:25 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

He's 3rd behind Clint Barmes and Brendan Ryan. Apparently he's a great defender..:facepalm:

Such a flawed stat and it factors into WAR

Someone start the "Jhonny Peralta for GG award" thread.

fadedmario
09-21-2012, 08:26 PM
Detroit — You wanna talk about WAR, fine. Let's chat.

Personally, Wins Above Replacement, an advanced stat that attempts to measure how many more victories a player is worth than if he were replaced on the team by a minor league or bench-level player, is far from perfect. It's simply not the end-all.

If it was, Alan Trammell, not Ozzie Smith, would've been the first-ballot Hall of Famer.

Now tell me, is Miguel Cabrera seriously worth fewer than seven victories compared to if a Mud Hens-caliber player had been playing instead of him for the Tigers this season?

Because, folks, that's what WAR suggests.

And to me, that's ludicrous, regardless of how limited Cabrera's range is at third base.

WAR also tells us Angels center fielder Mike Trout, 21, the sexy pick for AL Most Valuable Player by most in the national media, is worth two more wins to his team than Cabrera is worth to his Tigers. Never mind that Trout didn't even join the Angels until an April 28 promotion from the minor leagues.

WAR gives the edge to Trout, of course, because of his league-leading 46 stolen bases and 118 runs, and his Gold Glove-caliber defense. In turn, WAR doesn't seem to care much that Cabrera is making a historic pursuit for a Triple Crown, leading the league with a .333 batting average and 130 RBIs, while running second, by one, with 41 home runs.

I've had folks tell me lately that even if Cabrera wins baseball's first Triple Crown since 1967, Trout remains the MVP pick. My apologies. I simply cannot comprehend that.

But fans of Sabermetrics, these new-age stats that attempt to give you an all-around worth of a player, actually will tell you — and with a straight face! — that batting average and RBIs are irrelevant today.

There might — might — be the case with batting average, because that doesn't necessarily tell you how clutch or how much of a run producer a player is. There were some in Seattle who thought Ichiro Suzuki could have hit many more home runs, but didn't because he wanted his batting average to stay sky high.

But RBIs? Really? Irrelevant? The critics like to say that's only a measurement of how often guys get on ahead of you. Well, to that I have a two-word response: Delmon Young.

Trout, to be fair, is a leadoff hitter. He's guaranteed to come up at least once a game with nobody on in front of him. Cabrera bats third — and with the year Austin Jackson has had — and gets plenty of shots with runners on, regardless of the black hole that has been the Tigers' No. 2 slot.

So to compare Trout and Cabrera, you must be a little more creative.

Here's what I came up with. Cabrera drives in a run 37.8 percent of the time with runners on, and 50.6 percent with runners in scoring position. Trout, by comparison, is at 35.5 percent and 48.1 percent.

And let's talk about what the player means to his team. For starters, the Angels are more likely to miss the playoffs than the Tigers. That matters. But let's look past that. In terms of runs and RBIs, Cabrera has accounted for 28.2 percent of all Detroit's runs; Trout, meanwhile, is at 23.5 percent. And even had Trout been up on Opening Day, it would've taken an historic April to be beating Cabrera there.

There are other advanced metrics that Saber fans cite, including wRC+, or runs created. There, per FanGraphs, Trout actually edges Cabrera by two runs, 171-169. They are baseball's leaders. Of course, Cabrera wins in other areas Tigers manager Jim Leyland might call "geek" stats, including on-base percentage (.398-.392) and slugging percentage (.613-.551), and thus OPS (1.011-.943).

Then there's what a player's meant to his team when it matters — in crunch time.

In August and September, with the Tigers clawing to stay in the American League Central race, Cabrera is batting .360 with 16 homers and 45 RBIs in 44 games. Trout had an OK August (.284, seven homers and 19 RBIs), but he's darn near disappeared in September (.257, two homers, three RBIs).

What does that mean? If the Tigers make the playoffs — and it's very possible, considering the White Sox tough closing schedule — it'll be because of Cabrera.

And if the Angels miss the playoffs — a very likely scenario — it'll be, in part, because of Trout.

Now, I ask you, is that an MVP? That's for 28 of my peers to decide; I don't have an MVP vote this year.

But if that is an MVP, then let me say this: Voters better be consistent and make Tigers ace Justin Verlander the Cy Young winner for a second straight year, because he leads the major leagues in WAR, too, not contenders Felix Hernandez or David Price.

By the way, here's another thing FanGraphs' WAR tells us, folks: Anibal Sanchez (3.1) and Rick Porcello (2.9) are worth more to their team than Angels ace Jered Weaver (2.7) is to his. Never mind that Weaver is 18-4 with a 2.79 ERA. What do those stats matter anymore?

FanGraphs, interestingly, comes up with different WARs than Baseball-Reference.com. They arrive at the same numbers for home runs, RBIs and average, however.

Look, I'm not saying WAR and wRC+ and other Saber stats are rubbish. Not at all, actually. We're in the greatest technology era, with number crunching made easier. So there absolutely is a place in baseball for evolution of statistics.

But at the expense of completely disregarding telling stats that have been around for 100-plus years?

Let's please not go there.



http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120921/OPINION03/209210445#ixzz279VYfXF9

Jeffy25
09-22-2012, 02:57 AM
^ neat, let's throw out stats we don't understand.


Because he clearly has zero understanding of WAR, at all actually.

But if his plan to be able to understand value is to rely on 100-year old statistics because they must tell the whole story. I mean, it's not like we use anything from 100 years ago in any industry, in any level of technology to answer information better. So why should we in baseball?


Again, he doesn't even understand the stat he is easily dismissing, and doesn't seem to understand how little of an individual impact an individual player can have on a team of 25 men, when no more than any one player gets more than 9% of chances in any individual game.

Jeffy25
09-22-2012, 02:58 AM
Who has a better shot at AL Cy Young: Jered Weaver or Rick Porcello?

Because WAR tells me Rick Porcello is more deserving lol

Rick Porcello - 1.5 rWAR
Jered Weaver - 3.4 rWAR


Good try? I guess?

Jeffy25
09-22-2012, 03:03 AM
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

He's 3rd behind Clint Barmes and Brendan Ryan. Apparently he's a great defender..:facepalm:

Such a flawed stat and it factors into WAR

Instead of consistently using advanced statistics improperly to bash them, why don't start trying to learn how to use them?


UZR CAN NOT be used in a single season sample size. That's well known.

This year, Peralta has 0 Defensive Runs Saved (exactly neutral), compared to Brendan Ryan who has +27, and has 0.7 dWAR

He is right around league average defensively at short, more information gives you that information.


And you can't sit there and say Porcello is better than Weaver for the Cy Young because of fWAR. No one can use fWAR for a results based award. It cares nothing about run prevention. fWAR is more of a predicator of what the pitcher likely should have earned, and is not to be used to determine values for what the player actually did. Use baseball-reference for results based information.

Not to mention, it's a singular statistic, it's hopelessly naive to ever just use WAR as a be-all-end-all statistic, something everyone that cites WAR on this forum is very well aware of at this point.


If you guys are going to bash this information, you should really know how to use it first.

Jeffy25
09-22-2012, 03:11 AM
You are changing the point. He personaly is not playing as well with these things on the line. Miggy is. You know I know the records of these teams......

And yet.....it's still an individual award and has nothing to do with the players team what-so-ever.

Jeffy25
09-22-2012, 03:30 AM
Tigers fans seem to think that WAR is somehow out to get Miguel Cabrera.


But it says he is likely destined for the hall of fame.

He is already around the 200th best player to play the game (according to WAR), and he only turned 29 this year. He is likely heading for a top 50 place in the game all time, I don't believe his traditional numbers say he is heading there

WAR says that Verlander is on pace to be better than Nolan Ryan. I bet Tigers fans would say he is likely to do that. But WAR supports that argument.

It's not like it's out to get your favorite players because of the times it doesn't support them. These values were created based on what we understand that it takes to create runs in the game of baseball, and coincidentally wins (the goal of the sport). They are as neutral as any mathematical equation can be. There will be times that WAR says your player is the best (like it did last year for Justin Verlander), and there will be times it doesn't (like this year Miggy vs Trout). But the math makes sense, and it's intent is to help find the value of the creation of runs, the goal on the field.



Continuing to the post that faded shared with us

It's kind of silly to just attack something that was put together by very very bright people who took hours and hours to figure out how it works, and how teams create runs on the baseball field. The dismissals of it are....'well without Miggy, are the Tigers really only 7 games worse? That doesn't sound right to me, so it's stupid. But somehow that kid in Los Angeles has helped them win 10? Nope, I don't believe it. So it's stupid.' Despite that not even be anywhere close to how WAR works.

How about some logic to diminish the value of the information, rather than just dismissing it because you don't like what it says? You can tell the guy doesn't know anything about the statistic, how it works, or what it's trying to say. He is just dismissing something he doesn't understand and is only discussing it because the topic makes his home-town player look like he might not deserve the MVP. That's it. That's his entire reasoning for complaining about WAR. If it said Miggy was the better player this year, he would never write the posting. But, he might instead, use WAR to further show why his player was the better option.

This doesn't even broach the subject that he says Miggy will be the reason if the Tigers make the playoffs, and yet....the Angles have the better record? If an individual player could somehow will his team to be better, to pitch better, to hit better around him, to play better defense around him, for the bullpen to pitch better, and he could will this to happen. It wouldn't even matter to this guy, because the Tigers are in a division with the White Sox and not the Rangers and A's. So....nope, doesn't matter. It's horrendous logic that takes zero critical thinking, I'm sorry.

Jeffy25
09-22-2012, 04:02 AM
Would it surprise anyone that Tony Paul, the writer of the post that faded shared
Said in 2010
That Miguel Cabrera deserved the AL MVP?
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20101007/OPINION03/10070318

Would it then surprise you that he said Justin Verlander deserved the 2011 AL MVP?
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20110818/OPINION03/108180424

I know we have a really super unbiased guy here and everything. But it seems that we have all over-stated WAR

Also, don't forget your Mid-season MVP's
It's been Cabrera
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20100714/OPINION03/7140312

Also, he joined in the Fangraphs commenting section not too long ago to basically say that Miguel Cabrera's defensive value didn't matter because he is such a good hitter, so it doesn't matter, and because none of the current third basemen are as good defensively as Schmidt, so it's not like it should matter.

Homer much?

Halladay
09-22-2012, 04:17 AM
The voters never surprise me tbh. I saw Roy Halladay overlooked in Toronto year after year for the Cy Young because "he didn't win enough games".

Jeffy25
09-22-2012, 04:59 AM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-triple-crown-is-not-evil/

Some neat information

If Miggy gets the Triple Crown, but doesn't catch Trout in WAR (he won't) it will be only the second time in baseball history that there was a Triple Crown winner and he didn't lead the league in WAR (funny enough it was another Tiger - Cobb).

Usually the Triple Crown is accomplished by someone having a season for the ages (as Bagwell pointed out in that one thread he created that is in the comparisons forum).

It would be a crazy feat. To win the Triple Crown and arguably not be the most valuable player in the league.

mariner4life
09-22-2012, 08:24 AM
Forget right or wrong. If Miggy wins the triple crown he will be the MVP.
Its going to be awful around here when Miggy wins it. All the crazy threads like should the writers lose their voting privileges and was Trout robbed?

Personally speaking I think Trout should win but I have a really hard time believing that the voters will ignore traditional stats and will easily dismiss the defensive value of Trout.
There are cases when the voters give me hope that they have turned the corner but I honestly have zero faith in them.

Cabrera will win the MVP. It might not even be a close vote!

ATL#22
09-22-2012, 08:52 AM
Detroit — You wanna talk about WAR, fine. Let's chat.

Personally, Wins Above Replacement, an advanced stat that attempts to measure how many more victories a player is worth than if he were replaced on the team by a minor league or bench-level player, is far from perfect. It's simply not the end-all.

If it was, Alan Trammell, not Ozzie Smith, would've been the first-ballot Hall of Famer.

Now tell me, is Miguel Cabrera seriously worth fewer than seven victories compared to if a Mud Hens-caliber player had been playing instead of him for the Tigers this season?

Because, folks, that's what WAR suggests.

And to me, that's ludicrous, regardless of how limited Cabrera's range is at third base.

WAR also tells us Angels center fielder Mike Trout, 21, the sexy pick for AL Most Valuable Player by most in the national media, is worth two more wins to his team than Cabrera is worth to his Tigers. Never mind that Trout didn't even join the Angels until an April 28 promotion from the minor leagues.

WAR gives the edge to Trout, of course, because of his league-leading 46 stolen bases and 118 runs, and his Gold Glove-caliber defense. In turn, WAR doesn't seem to care much that Cabrera is making a historic pursuit for a Triple Crown, leading the league with a .333 batting average and 130 RBIs, while running second, by one, with 41 home runs.

I've had folks tell me lately that even if Cabrera wins baseball's first Triple Crown since 1967, Trout remains the MVP pick. My apologies. I simply cannot comprehend that.

But fans of Sabermetrics, these new-age stats that attempt to give you an all-around worth of a player, actually will tell you — and with a straight face! — that batting average and RBIs are irrelevant today.

There might — might — be the case with batting average, because that doesn't necessarily tell you how clutch or how much of a run producer a player is. There were some in Seattle who thought Ichiro Suzuki could have hit many more home runs, but didn't because he wanted his batting average to stay sky high.

But RBIs? Really? Irrelevant? The critics like to say that's only a measurement of how often guys get on ahead of you. Well, to that I have a two-word response: Delmon Young.

Trout, to be fair, is a leadoff hitter. He's guaranteed to come up at least once a game with nobody on in front of him. Cabrera bats third — and with the year Austin Jackson has had — and gets plenty of shots with runners on, regardless of the black hole that has been the Tigers' No. 2 slot.

So to compare Trout and Cabrera, you must be a little more creative.

Here's what I came up with. Cabrera drives in a run 37.8 percent of the time with runners on, and 50.6 percent with runners in scoring position. Trout, by comparison, is at 35.5 percent and 48.1 percent.

And let's talk about what the player means to his team. For starters, the Angels are more likely to miss the playoffs than the Tigers. That matters. But let's look past that. In terms of runs and RBIs, Cabrera has accounted for 28.2 percent of all Detroit's runs; Trout, meanwhile, is at 23.5 percent. And even had Trout been up on Opening Day, it would've taken an historic April to be beating Cabrera there.

There are other advanced metrics that Saber fans cite, including wRC+, or runs created. There, per FanGraphs, Trout actually edges Cabrera by two runs, 171-169. They are baseball's leaders. Of course, Cabrera wins in other areas Tigers manager Jim Leyland might call "geek" stats, including on-base percentage (.398-.392) and slugging percentage (.613-.551), and thus OPS (1.011-.943).

Then there's what a player's meant to his team when it matters — in crunch time.

In August and September, with the Tigers clawing to stay in the American League Central race, Cabrera is batting .360 with 16 homers and 45 RBIs in 44 games. Trout had an OK August (.284, seven homers and 19 RBIs), but he's darn near disappeared in September (.257, two homers, three RBIs).

What does that mean? If the Tigers make the playoffs — and it's very possible, considering the White Sox tough closing schedule — it'll be because of Cabrera.

And if the Angels miss the playoffs — a very likely scenario — it'll be, in part, because of Trout.

Now, I ask you, is that an MVP? That's for 28 of my peers to decide; I don't have an MVP vote this year.

But if that is an MVP, then let me say this: Voters better be consistent and make Tigers ace Justin Verlander the Cy Young winner for a second straight year, because he leads the major leagues in WAR, too, not contenders Felix Hernandez or David Price.

By the way, here's another thing FanGraphs' WAR tells us, folks: Anibal Sanchez (3.1) and Rick Porcello (2.9) are worth more to their team than Angels ace Jered Weaver (2.7) is to his. Never mind that Weaver is 18-4 with a 2.79 ERA. What do those stats matter anymore?

FanGraphs, interestingly, comes up with different WARs than Baseball-Reference.com. They arrive at the same numbers for home runs, RBIs and average, however.

Look, I'm not saying WAR and wRC+ and other Saber stats are rubbish. Not at all, actually. We're in the greatest technology era, with number crunching made easier. So there absolutely is a place in baseball for evolution of statistics.

But at the expense of completely disregarding telling stats that have been around for 100-plus years?

Let's please not go there.



http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120921/OPINION03/209210445#ixzz279VYfXF9

You actually read this ****ing idiot? He doesnt even know his teams lineup. Since when does Delmon Young bat in front of Cabrera? I also like how he tries really hard to use the playoff argument when Detroit has a 26% chance of making it. Then i wouldn't get anyone started on RBI's because yes he has Jackson batting in front of him.

sexicano31
09-22-2012, 10:10 AM
Forget right or wrong. If Miggy wins the triple crown he will be the MVP.
Its going to be awful around here when Miggy wins it. All the crazy threads like should the writers lose their voting privileges and was Trout robbed?

Personally speaking I think Trout should win but I have a really hard time believing that the voters will ignore traditional stats and will easily dismiss the defensive value of Trout.
There are cases when the voters give me hope that they have turned the corner but I honestly have zero faith in them.

Cabrera will win the MVP. It might not even be a close vote!

It's all going to come down to two narratives: a guy winning the triple crown or a 21 year old rookie who has been phenomenal. It's going to be a close one

mariner4life
09-22-2012, 10:30 AM
It's all going to come down to two narratives: a guy winning the triple crown or a 21 year old rookie who has been phenomenal. It's going to be a close one

If Detroit ends up winning the division and the Angels end up in third I think Cabrera could win easily. Unfortunate that some people think that team wins should count for an individual award.

fadedmario
09-22-2012, 12:00 PM
It's all going to come down to two narratives: a guy winning the triple crown or a 21 year old rookie who has been phenomenal. It's going to be a close one

Agreed. Playoffs might play a little part in it as well (not that I think they should).

fadedmario
09-22-2012, 06:49 PM
Miguel Cabrera now leads the AL in BA, HR, and RBI's with 12 games to play.

OMG we might actually have a Triple Crown winner.

****'s getting real.

Miggy hit #42 today.

StriveGreatness
09-22-2012, 06:58 PM
Doesn't matter. Batting average and RBI are 100% useless and shouldn't even be recognized.

fadedmario
09-22-2012, 07:08 PM
Doesn't matter. Batting average and RBI are 100% useless and shouldn't even be recognized.

:laugh2:

Texas Holders
09-22-2012, 07:09 PM
If Detroit ends up winning the division and the Angels end up in third I think Cabrera could win easily. Unfortunate that some people think that team wins should count for an individual award.

What's funny about that statement is that the Angels have more wins than the Tigers. So that argument would come down to Miggy being more valuable due to the Rangers being better than the White Sox.

Texas Holders
09-22-2012, 07:12 PM
Doesn't matter. Batting average and RBI are 100% useless and shouldn't even be recognized.

Not 100% useless. BA is just a poor indicator. RBIs depend on context, but for judging individuals, it is useless. Especially when comparing two players.

Fly
09-22-2012, 07:43 PM
Not 100% useless. BA is just a poor indicator. RBIs depend on context, but for judging individuals, it is useless. Especially when comparing two players.

Agreed.

sexicano31
09-22-2012, 07:45 PM
Doesn't matter. Batting average and RBI are 100% useless and shouldn't even be recognized.

Well RBI yeah. At least you're catching on