PDA

View Full Version : John Farrell/Red Sox



GNick
09-11-2012, 09:16 AM
Why do Red Sox keep going after John Farrell? Who is under contract to another club. With so many other top manager candidates available? Why not Dave Martinez? Joe Madden's under study in Tampa. Mike Maddux? Former Boston pitcher who done a great job in Texas. Ryan Sandberg? Phillies triple A manager and Hall of Famer. If they want experience what about a Bob Melvin or Gene Lamont?

C-ross12
09-11-2012, 09:27 AM
Wasn't Farrell a respected pitching coach for Boston for several years? I'm sure if thats the case they'd at least try to get him back. I think a lot of people underrate the importance of finding the right manager. If the Red Sox thinks he can be the right guy, its probably worth giving off a decent prospect or so to get him, if the Jays will agree to something like that.

Station 13
09-11-2012, 10:15 AM
Why do Red Sox keep going after John Farrell? Who is under contract to another club. With so many other top manager candidates available? Why not Dave Martinez? Joe Madden's under study in Tampa. Mike Maddux? Former Boston pitcher who done a great job in Texas. Ryan Sandberg? Phillies triple A manager and Hall of Famer. If they want experience what about a Bob Melvin or Gene Lamont?

Who's to say they aren't looking at other candidates?

GNick
09-11-2012, 10:32 AM
Wasn't Farrell a respected pitching coach for Boston for several years? I'm sure if thats the case they'd at least try to get him back. I think a lot of people underrate the importance of finding the right manager. If the Red Sox thinks he can be the right guy, its probably worth giving off a decent prospect or so to get him, if the Jays will agree to something like that.

Wants to be quite the prospect. Jays will need another manager and aid division rival. Something like Jose Iglesias + Bradley. Any less I wouldn't let Boston talk to him.

grandsalami
09-11-2012, 10:34 AM
Wants to be quite the prospect. Jays will need another manager and aid division rival. Something like Jose Iglesias + Bradley. Any less I wouldn't let Boston talk to him.

NO manager is worth something like that... Sorry.. No offense to Farrell or the Blue Jays.....

bagwell368
09-11-2012, 10:49 AM
Why do Red Sox keep going after John Farrell? Who is under contract to another club. With so many other top manager candidates available? Why not Dave Martinez? Joe Madden's under study in Tampa. Mike Maddux? Former Boston pitcher who done a great job in Texas. Ryan Sandberg? Phillies triple A manager and Hall of Famer. If they want experience what about a Bob Melvin or Gene Lamont?

You have proof of this do you? That would be tampering. Or are you just reacting to the Boston media, fans, and a few national guys looking for some reader hits on their web sites.

bagwell368
09-11-2012, 10:58 AM
NO manager is worth something like that... Sorry.. No offense to Farrell or the Blue Jays.....

You have to understand where GNick is coming from. He posted this on the Boston Board on the 8th:


This will have nothing to do with Epstein! Toronto won't give Farrell to division rival unless something comes back. He's knows Boston without Farrell Sox won't get 50% of the potential out of Lester, Buckholz, etc... AA won't shoot himself in the foot like that. He's got the Red Sox out of the pennant race with no Farrell.

Red Sox want him bad and any manager who is good won't go there knowing the job will be Farrell's in 2014. Doubt Red Sox will piss away their 2013 season over 1 decent player in return for Farrell. It could be a simple deal like Bard for Lind. Or a major trade involving Raasmus, Ellsbury, etc...

I have asked GNick to explain/justify this 50% assertion several times which he has ignored, even after I supplied the ERA+ of the team in his last year and the year after (2010 & 2011) - both 104.... So much for 50%.

GNick repeated the claim made last year that the Jays wanted Bucchholz for Farrell - which the BRS turned down stone cold. Another meh year by Farrell, with just 2013 left on his contract and the Jays fan thinks that's still reasonable. Of course he would if he believes this 50% claim.

Pinstripe pride
09-11-2012, 11:39 AM
NO manager is worth something like that... Sorry.. No offense to Farrell or the Blue Jays.....

what he;s worth and what the jays are willing to let him go for don't have to be the same thing, nor do they have to be reasonable

scottythegreat1
09-11-2012, 11:50 AM
As a Blue Jays fan, I wouldnt dare let John Farrell go for cheap. If the Red Sox want him, they better be prepared to OVERPAY for him.

I dont know how many people on here know this, but some Blue Jays fans on this board are suggesting that the price for John Farrel would be Dustin Pedroia. I know its a steep price for a manager, but they have a point.

John Farrell waited for Francona to vacate soon, and instead of waiting around forever for him to leave or get fired/retire, he took action and went to another ball club. I think deep down inside he somewhat regrets leaving Boston. Just the way he is not confirming or denying the rumours is very suspicious to me (ie. all he is saying is..."Im under contract with Toronto.").

bagwell368
09-11-2012, 12:45 PM
Pedroia?

I guess you guys didn't grow up buying/selling collectables in a store or auction - or these days ebay.

Insist on Pedroia and be prepared to get nothing.

Lots of other fish in the sea.

Toxeryll
09-11-2012, 12:49 PM
I dont like Farrell. dont mind giving him to boston and hire francona

the_jon
09-11-2012, 12:51 PM
Pedroia?

I guess you guys didn't grow up buying/selling collectables in a store or auction - or these days ebay.

Insist on Pedroia and be prepared to get nothing.

Lots of other fish in the sea.
Would rather get nothing and keep Farrell than help a division rival. If we give him up to the Red Sox, we need to be getting something similar in return. Otherwise there's no point. And you aren't getting him for low A ball spects so don't even suggest that.

the_jon
09-11-2012, 12:52 PM
This isn't about value, it's about the Jays not letting the Red Sox essentially push them around.

OneManIsNoMan
09-11-2012, 01:03 PM
Would rather get nothing and keep Farrell than help a division rival. If we give him up to the Red Sox, we need to be getting something similar in return. Otherwise there's no point. And you aren't getting him for low A ball spects so don't even suggest that.

What negotiating power do the Jays really have? After next season Farrell is free to go wherever he wants. Boston is going to be in transitions next season and probably wont contend for a playoff spot till 2014. Really there are a few options.

1. Try and sign Farrell to an extension
2. Let him walk after the 2013 season (get nothing)
3. Trade him to the Sox for spec(s) and get something

If the Jays feel like option #1 is not going to happen the option #3 is the best way to go.

AI
09-11-2012, 01:18 PM
Pedroia? Bradley? Buchholz? That is just laughable. We received RP specs for Theo who currently rank 24th and 42nd in our farm, expect something similar in return.

bagwell368
09-11-2012, 01:48 PM
This isn't about value, it's about the Jays not letting the Red Sox essentially push them around.

Making a show of being macho for the fans and the FO is great and all, but the Jays don't have that much leverage.

Sox have plenty of other candidates.

Farrell hasn't done anything special so far (his Pythagorean W-L in almost 2 years in Toronto is +1, which means he didn't win or lose any more games than expected)

Managers is baseball are not that valuable.

The media could just be projecting what the Red Sox ownership/FO want to do after BV. Unless they think JF is a big deal they won't come up with any great offer. If I had to give something up, they can have Iglesias who is the 4th or 5th best SS in the Red Sox Major/Minor league roster. In fact that would be fitting, get a meh Manager for a negative value SS. Hahahhhaaa.

the_jon
09-11-2012, 01:53 PM
Unless you guys are just getting a stop gap manager for 2013 then I'm really not worried about extending Farrell at this time. I could care less if he went to an NL team, but letting him go back to the Sox for peanuts would be stupid.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-11-2012, 02:28 PM
I dont get the fascination some Jays fans have over Farrell.
I mean it's apparent him leaving Boston has hurt guys like Beckett, Dice-K and Lester but he hasn't done anything for our guys like Romero, Drabek etc..

He seems to be loved though by the players which is always a definite plus, I wouldn't mind keeping him I guess because its not always good to constantly change managers especially when your teams on the brink of contention.

Id give him an option, extend his contract this offseason with us, if he doesn't trade him to the Sox for whatever if he does then touche welcome back and look forward to next year.

StryderSox
09-11-2012, 02:40 PM
Unless you guys are just getting a stop gap manager for 2013 then I'm really not worried about extending Farrell at this time. I could care less if he went to an NL team, but letting him go back to the Sox for peanuts would be stupid.

The Red Sox are rebuilding at the moment and probably wont contend again until 2014 as mentioned above.....

Do you really think its so far fetched that if the Jays start making stupid demands like Pedroia, Buchholz and Bradley and the Sox really feel like Farrell is their guy that they name an interim Mnagaer for 2013 and then just sign Farrell when his contract runs out?

AI
09-11-2012, 02:52 PM
I dont get the fascination some Jays fans have over Farrell.
I mean it's apparent him leaving Boston has hurt guys like Beckett, Dice-K and Lester but he hasn't done anything for our guys like Romero, Drabek etc..

I love how people just make statements like this with no facts to back it up.

Lester was hurt by Farrell's departure? I'm sorry, but what about his 2010 (134 ERA+) and 2011 (125 ERA+) screams that he missed his old pitching coach? Please explain, I would love to hear this. Don't give me none of the "Well' he hasn't been good in 2012" and completely ignore his previous 2 years where Farrell wasn't in the picture.

As for Beckett, he suffered a back injury in 2010 and came back the next year and had an excellent season (150 ERA+). Doing his usual Beckett, good in odd years, bad in even years routine, he underperformed in 2012.

Now the funny one, Dice-K. Last 4 years have been horrible, this includes time when Farrell was still his pitching coach. I love how people love to praise Farrell like he was some magical genie who will instantly turn the pitchers around.

2009mvp
09-11-2012, 04:19 PM
Making a show of being macho for the fans and the FO is great and all, but the Jays don't have that much leverage.

Sox have plenty of other candidates.

Farrell hasn't done anything special so far (his Pythagorean W-L in almost 2 years in Toronto is +1, which means he didn't win or lose any more games than expected)

Managers is baseball are not that valuable.

The media could just be projecting what the Red Sox ownership/FO want to do after BV. Unless they think JF is a big deal they won't come up with any great offer. If I had to give something up, they can have Iglesias who is the 4th or 5th best SS in the Red Sox Major/Minor league roster. In fact that would be fitting, get a meh Manager for a negative value SS. Hahahhhaaa.

Who has any leverage at this point? Certainly not the Red Sox. They simply have to fire Bobby V (don't think anyone disagrees with that, right?), and in that market they don't really have the option of nabbing a stopgap guy for a season and waiting on Farrell's contract to expire. So either they find themselves another manager not named Farrell (which doesn't involve the Jays in the slightest) or they make a trade. And if it comes down to the latter, why would the Jays let him go for peanuts? At this point, the PR hit of letting the Sawx poach your manager after being stomped on by them and the Yankees for 20 years probably outweighs the value of a marginal prospect or two. Which is why you set an absurdly high price that the Sawx would have to be insane to pay. When they don't meet that price, what do the Blue Jays lose? It's not like anyone's fearing the idea of Farrell walking after 2013. If he so desperately wants out you wait and you fire him after the Sox make their hire. Simple. It's not like they're racing against time either, since the three likely replacements in any event are already in the organization. Seems to me like any leverage there might be in this situation belongs to the Jays.

StryderSox
09-11-2012, 04:47 PM
Who has any leverage at this point? Certainly not the Red Sox. They simply have to fire Bobby V (don't think anyone disagrees with that, right?), and in that market they don't really have the option of nabbing a stopgap guy for a season and waiting on Farrell's contract to expire. So either they find themselves another manager not named Farrell (which doesn't involve the Jays in the slightest) or they make a trade. And if it comes down to the latter, why would the Jays let him go for peanuts? At this point, the PR hit of letting the Sawx poach your manager after being stomped on by them and the Yankees for 20 years probably outweighs the value of a marginal prospect or two. Which is why you set an absurdly high price that the Sawx would have to be insane to pay. When they don't meet that price, what do the Blue Jays lose? It's not like anyone's fearing the idea of Farrell walking after 2013. If he so desperately wants out you wait and you fire him after the Sox make their hire. Simple. It's not like they're racing against time either, since the three likely replacements in any event are already in the organization. Seems to me like any leverage there might be in this situation belongs to the Jays.

More people making grand declarations of what the RedSox need to do and what they cant do without any facts to back it up. The RedSox look like thye are intend to rebuild for a year or two and wont contend until probably 2014 at least. If this is the case then what makes you say that naming an interim manager is not an option. If they really think Farrell is the guy then naming an interim manager doesnt seem that bad of an idea. After Bobby Valentine its not like promoting someone for a year could be any worse. If you are reasonable that at least you get something in return. If you make ridiculous demands like Buchholz and Pedroia then the Sox just wait a year, sign Farrell and the Jays get nothing.

You are worried about it looking like you let the Yankees and Sox walk all over you? Nothing sends that message clearer then letting Farrell walk back to Boston at the end of 2013 and getting nothing in return. In that scenario its like the Jays just developed his managing skills and kept him warm until he was ready to come home.

mgsports
09-11-2012, 05:07 PM
Tim Bogar?
Wade Boggs?
Roger Clemens?
Pedro Martinez?
Tim Wafefield?
Jason Varietk?
Darrel Evens?
Larry Bowa?
Jerry Manuel?
Dennis Eckersley?
Scott Cooper?

joshhorvath
09-11-2012, 05:42 PM
as Ken Rosenthal has said, the asking price should start, as was the price last year is.... Clay Buchholz. Toronto has a team policy that a staff member cannot make a lateral move for the same position, if the staff member were to go to a new team, it would have to be in a position thats greater then the present position.

bagwell368
09-11-2012, 05:46 PM
Who has any leverage at this point? Certainly not the Red Sox. They simply have to fire Bobby V (don't think anyone disagrees with that, right?), and in that market they don't really have the option of nabbing a stopgap guy for a season and waiting on Farrell's contract to expire. So either they find themselves another manager not named Farrell (which doesn't involve the Jays in the slightest) or they make a trade. And if it comes down to the latter, why would the Jays let him go for peanuts? At this point, the PR hit of letting the Sawx poach your manager after being stomped on by them and the Yankees for 20 years probably outweighs the value of a marginal prospect or two. Which is why you set an absurdly high price that the Sawx would have to be insane to pay. When they don't meet that price, what do the Blue Jays lose? It's not like anyone's fearing the idea of Farrell walking after 2013. If he so desperately wants out you wait and you fire him after the Sox make their hire. Simple. It's not like they're racing against time either, since the three likely replacements in any event are already in the organization. Seems to me like any leverage there might be in this situation belongs to the Jays.

Best write up from the Jays side so far.

I didn't say that the Red Sox had more leverage than the Jays, just that the Jays do not have that much. If they want to ask for a ridiculous package (and make it public) and want to live off the warm embers of that move, with nothing to show - great for them. Sort of the like Costanza and the "jerk store" episode if you ask me.

But I assume at some base level they are businessmen that want to gain (or salvage) something out of the situation. If they the Jays don't want him past 3 years, or are convinced he's headed to the Sox in any case why not take a more reasonable package for him - and still make noises about beating up in the bad old Red Sox for the more puerile of the fans?

bagwell368
09-11-2012, 05:49 PM
as Ken Rosenthal has said, the asking price should start, as was the price last year is.... Clay Buchholz. Toronto has a team policy that a staff member cannot make a lateral move for the same position, if the staff member were to go to a new team, it would have to be in a position thats greater then the present position.

Every team has that position, supported by MLB.

I'm no great Buchholz fan but that's calculated as I just wrote to be a Costanza "jerk store" outcome.

2009mvp
09-11-2012, 05:52 PM
More people making grand declarations of what the RedSox need to do and what they cant do without any facts to back it up. The RedSox look like thye are intend to rebuild for a year or two and wont contend until probably 2014 at least. If this is the case then what makes you say that naming an interim manager is not an option.

All that talk about a toxic clubhouse (valid or not, it's what the media's been harping on for the past calendar year) and they're gonna name an interim manager from within? Good luck with that. Or are you proposing they go outside of the organization and hand out a contract to a guy for a year? Who the hell is gonna step into that kind of situation without a boatload of money? It's obviously not impossible, but it seems highly improbable that the Sawx go into 2013 without the guy they think will eventually take them back to the WS in place. Seems like a pretty terrible way to run an organization otherwise.


If they really think Farrell is the guy then naming an interim manager doesnt seem that bad of an idea.

Guaranteeing them what? Too much could happen within a year to sit on a single guy. What if the Jays win 95 and Farrell signs an extension? Or what if they're playing <.400 ball by June and he's canned midseason? Still look like a good hire? Why not go find one of the other hundreds of qualified candidates not named John Farrell? Like I said, it's possible they just wait, but it's a horrible way to run a baseball team.


After Bobby Valentine its not like promoting someone for a year could be any worse. If you are reasonable that at least you get something in return. If you make ridiculous demands like Buchholz and Pedroia then the Sox just wait a year, sign Farrell and the Jays get nothing. You are worried about it looking like you let the Yankees and Sox walk all over you? Nothing sends that message clearer then letting Farrell walk back to Boston at the end of 2013 and getting nothing in return. In that scenario its like the Jays just developed his managing skills and kept him warm until he was ready to come home.

If he doesn't make the playoffs in 2013 I don't think anyone will care where he goes. We're not exactly talking about poaching Cito Gaston after '93 here, like bagwell pointed out he's a pretty mediocre manager in all aspects including his teams' records.

dtmagnet
09-11-2012, 06:35 PM
More people making grand declarations of what the RedSox need to do and what they cant do without any facts to back it up. The RedSox look like thye are intend to rebuild for a year or two and wont contend until probably 2014 at least. If this is the case then what makes you say that naming an interim manager is not an option. If they really think Farrell is the guy then naming an interim manager doesnt seem that bad of an idea. After Bobby Valentine its not like promoting someone for a year could be any worse. If you are reasonable that at least you get something in return. If you make ridiculous demands like Buchholz and Pedroia then the Sox just wait a year, sign Farrell and the Jays get nothing.

You are worried about it looking like you let the Yankees and Sox walk all over you? Nothing sends that message clearer then letting Farrell walk back to Boston at the end of 2013 and getting nothing in return. In that scenario its like the Jays just developed his managing skills and kept him warm until he was ready to come home.

No Jays fans will care if Farrell walks away after 2013, they will care more if we help out the sinking ship that is the Red Sox.

OneManIsNoMan
09-11-2012, 07:38 PM
No Jays fans will care if Farrell walks away after 2013, they will care more if we help out the sinking ship that is the Red Sox.

So let me see if I get what your saying. Fans would be pissed if Farrell was "traded" to the Sox for a prospect and help the Sox turn in around next year BUT they'd be fine if Farrell just walked STILL helping the Sox turn it around and left the Jays with nothing.

dtmagnet
09-11-2012, 07:58 PM
So let me see if I get what your saying. Fans would be pissed if Farrell was "traded" to the Sox for a prospect and help the Sox turn in around next year BUT they'd be fine if Farrell just walked STILL helping the Sox turn it around and left the Jays with nothing.

Yes because if as you are all saying the Jays won't get much in a trade for him, then its the same as getting nothing. So why not tell the Sox to piss off, they're our division rivals after all.

2009mvp
09-11-2012, 08:39 PM
So let me see if I get what your saying. Fans would be pissed if Farrell was "traded" to the Sox for a prospect and help the Sox turn in around next year BUT they'd be fine if Farrell just walked STILL helping the Sox turn it around and left the Jays with nothing.

Yessir. There's an implied assumption there that he'd have failed once again to get the team to the playoffs in 2013 before he walks (not that that would be on him, but still). Now if the Jays are actually competing next year then I just don't see him walking away from an extension, if they're not, then who gives a **** where the manager goes?

OneManIsNoMan
09-11-2012, 08:52 PM
Yes because if as you are all saying the Jays won't get much in a trade for him, then its the same as getting nothing. So why not tell the Sox to piss off, they're our division rivals after all.

You've put pride over business then. If you know (and right now we dont) that Farrell isn't going to sign an extension, I'd take the best prospect I could pry away and let him go the Sox.


Yessir. There's an implied assumption there that he'd have failed once again to get the team to the playoffs in 2013 before he walks (not that that would be on him, but still). Now if the Jays are actually competing next year then I just don't see him walking away from an extension, if they're not, then who gives a **** where the manager goes?

Even if they are competing I wouldn't rule out that Farrell wouldn't jump at a chance to go back to the Red Sox.

2009mvp
09-11-2012, 09:02 PM
You've put pride over business then. If you know (and right now we dont) that Farrell isn't going to sign an extension, I'd take the best prospect I could pry away and let him go the Sox.



Even if they are competing I wouldn't rule out that Farrell wouldn't jump at a chance to go back to the Red Sox.

Why? What do the Sawx offer that a hypothetically competing Blue Jay team couldn't, besides a relentless media corps and a public thrashing by ownership down the line on his way out? I don't understand how Farrell supposedly had this amazing bond with the Red Sox, hell wasn't he part of the Indians organization much longer than he was the Sox?

OneManIsNoMan
09-11-2012, 09:13 PM
Why? What do the Sawx offer that a hypothetically competing Blue Jay team couldn't, besides a relentless media corps and a public thrashing by ownership down the line on his way out? I don't understand how Farrell supposedly had this amazing bond with the Red Sox, hell wasn't he part of the Indians organization much longer than he was the Sox?

He was a coach that the players respected in his tenure with the Red Sox. He was in Boston for 4 or 5 years and has mentored a good numbers of the players. To answer your questions about his organization history..

Two stints with Cleveland as a pitcher (not a coach) 1987-1990 then a one year stint in 1995. From 2001-2006 he was the Director of Player Development then from 2006-2010 was a Pitching Coach with the Sox.

Twitchy
09-11-2012, 09:16 PM
I don't see the big deal. Farrell is a medicore to average manager. If he leaves and the Jays get anything they come out ahead and make a rival AL East team weaker. If he stays then the Sox don't get the guy they claim they want. I don't see how the Jays lose or the Sox win in this case. At worst the Jays break even staying with Farrell.

If Farrell was this stellar manager I could see why the Sox would want him, but he's not. Getting him isn't a prize, and giving up a warm body for him is kind of a joke.

It's just a really odd story.

StryderSox
09-12-2012, 01:07 PM
I don't see the big deal. Farrell is a medicore to average manager. If he leaves and the Jays get anything they come out ahead and make a rival AL East team weaker. If he stays then the Sox don't get the guy they claim they want. I don't see how the Jays lose or the Sox win in this case. At worst the Jays break even staying with Farrell.

If Farrell was this stellar manager I could see why the Sox would want him, but he's not. Getting him isn't a prize, and giving up a warm body for him is kind of a joke.

It's just a really odd story.

Personally I as a RedSox fan I dont even want Farrell. I would rather go with someone fresh that has little to no ties to the current clubhouse like Dave Martinez or Mike Maddux. I just find it funny the number of Jays fans trying to justify how they such get Buchholz or Pedroia for a manager that they admittedly dont even care if he isnt in Toronto past 2013.

bagwell368
09-12-2012, 01:30 PM
Personally I as a RedSox fan I dont even want Farrell. I would rather go with someone fresh that has little to no ties to the current clubhouse like Dave Martinez or Mike Maddux. I just find it funny the number of Jays fans trying to justify how they such get Buchholz or Pedroia for a manager that they admittedly dont even care if he isnt in Toronto past 2013.

Jealousy is an ugly thing.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2012, 02:43 PM
I love how people just make statements like this with no facts to back it up.

Lester was hurt by Farrell's departure? I'm sorry, but what about his 2010 (134 ERA+) and 2011 (125 ERA+) screams that he missed his old pitching coach? Please explain, I would love to hear this. Don't give me none of the "Well' he hasn't been good in 2012" and completely ignore his previous 2 years where Farrell wasn't in the picture.

As for Beckett, he suffered a back injury in 2010 and came back the next year and had an excellent season (150 ERA+). Doing his usual Beckett, good in odd years, bad in even years routine, he underperformed in 2012.

Now the funny one, Dice-K. Last 4 years have been horrible, this includes time when Farrell was still his pitching coach. I love how people love to praise Farrell like he was some magical genie who will instantly turn the pitchers around.

I love when people love cherry picking stats to help make themselves look better..

Lets completely ignore though Lesters k/9 has gone down significantly and that his walk rate has completely risen by a marginal amount.

He dropped his ERA last year but its boomed this year, and his xFIP his risen each year since Farrels gone to.
Not to mention even though people never use this stat his War has decreased yearly too.

To cut straight to the chase he's had control/mechanical issues one that good pitching coaches help you with. But again lets ignore all this and pick out random nitpicked stats. If you want to get so technical his actual ERA, dropped down a nice amount in 2010 but was higher in 2011 than 2009.

2011 and 2012 has been the biggest years he's really missed Farrel.

Same thing with Beckett and Dice-K too.

I wasn't trying to give the impression that Farrrel is a genious, I was just stating he helped your top pitchers be more consistant than they have been since he left. Why so defensive??

Kelly Gruber
09-12-2012, 03:40 PM
Jealousy is an ugly thing.

Not sure where you get jeaolousy out of that... Kind of weird...

It's more a case of wanting to squeeze a rival team for all they can should the reports of the Red Sox wanting Farrell back be true.

That's all I've seen Jays fans say. You want Farrell? Prepare to pay for it. Rumors last year were saying that the Jays said Bucholz or beat it, the Red Sox chose to beat it. I'm sure it'd be something similar this year.

And you can never judge a manager by what the fans think of him. 99% of the time fans don't know jack **** in my experience...

But jealousy? That doesn't factor in here. NO ONE is jealous of the Red Sox right now...

StryderSox
09-12-2012, 04:11 PM
Not sure where you get jeaolousy out of that... Kind of weird...

It's more a case of wanting to squeeze a rival team for all they can should the reports of the Red Sox wanting Farrell back be true.

That's all I've seen Jays fans say. You want Farrell? Prepare to pay for it. Rumors last year were saying that the Jays said Bucholz or beat it, the Red Sox chose to beat it. I'm sure it'd be something similar this year.

And you can never judge a manager by what the fans think of him. 99% of the time fans don't know jack **** in my experience...

But jealousy? That doesn't factor in here. NO ONE is jealous of the Red Sox right now...

Yes what will us Red Sox fans ever do about having one losing season in the past 15 years? There certainly is no hope for us. No hope in the numerous prospects that we have on the cusp of being ready for the MLB. Certainly no hope in the fact that we cleared 200+ million dollars of committed salary AND got prospects in return. And most importantly their is definetly no hope in the additional almost 60 million dollars in payroll space that we will have available for the 2013 season. Its just a deep dark tunnel of hopelessness for us with no ending in site. Its not like we have a fresh slate to do whatever we want in 2013 or anything. :facepalm:

dtmagnet
09-12-2012, 04:50 PM
Yes what will us Red Sox fans ever do about having one losing season in the past 15 years? There certainly is no hope for us. No hope in the numerous prospects that we have on the cusp of being ready for the MLB. Certainly no hope in the fact that we cleared 200+ million dollars of committed salary AND got prospects in return. And most importantly their is definetly no hope in the additional almost 60 million dollars in payroll space that we will have available for the 2013 season. Its just a deep dark tunnel of hopelessness for us with no ending in site. Its not like we have a fresh slate to do whatever we want in 2013 or anything. :facepalm:

Cool story bro!

bagwell368
09-12-2012, 09:59 PM
Not sure where you get jeaolousy out of that... Kind of weird...

Read the thread Bucko. Several pro Jays fans have said you (meaning the Red Sox) aren't getting anything from us just because you want it - you can't push us around). My reading of human motivation tells me that sort of thing is based on jealousy. YMMV.


That's all I've seen Jays fans say. You want Farrell? Prepare to pay for it. Rumors last year were saying that the Jays said Bucholz or beat it, the Red Sox chose to beat it. I'm sure it'd be something similar this year.

And you can never judge a manager by what the fans think of him. 99% of the time fans don't know jack **** in my experience...

But jealousy? That doesn't factor in here. NO ONE is jealous of the Red Sox right now...

Read post #13. #9 is also in the same vein.

gaughan333
09-12-2012, 10:52 PM
its funny to see red sox fans talk about this now when some red sox fans were saying they should get garza and or castro for Theo.

2009mvp
09-13-2012, 12:25 AM
Read the thread Bucko. Several pro Jays fans have said you (meaning the Red Sox) aren't getting anything from us just because you want it - you can't push us around). My reading of human motivation tells me that sort of thing is based on jealousy. YMMV.



Read post #13. #9 is also in the same vein.

Whoa, let's be clear here that a lot of us wouldn't really care where Farrell goes if he leaves. It does however reflect very poorly on the organization and will affect the casual sports fan in this city, and like it or not in the Blue Jays' current situation that is a big deal. That's what I'd be concerned about.

Besides, if I were to be jealous of any team it'd be the one with 27 rings, not yours.

StryderSox
09-13-2012, 10:21 AM
Besides, if I were to be jealous of any team it'd be the one with 27 rings, not yours.

Fair enough.....

For myself I am content in knowing that my team has more rings than 26 other teams and with the current youth movement will probably contend for a few more in about 2 or 3 years.

bagwell368
09-13-2012, 11:26 AM
Besides, if I were to be jealous of any team it'd be the one with 27 rings, not yours.

History lesson:

Boston Red Sox were the dominant AL team from 1903-1918 and again from 2003-2009 - with a total of 7 WS (4th all time).

Toronto OTOH was dominant from 1991-1993.

Kelly Gruber
09-13-2012, 11:29 AM
History lesson:

Boston Red Sox were the dominant AL team from 1903-1918 and again from 2003-2009 - with a total of 7 WS (4th all time).

Toronto OTOH was dominant from 1991-1993.

And now they're both befuddled messes with high hopes pinned on prospects in the toughest division in sports. Hence, no one is jealous of the Red Sox... Or Jays I imagine...

Kelly Gruber
09-13-2012, 11:32 AM
Fair enough.....

For myself I am content in knowing that my team has more rings than 26 other teams and with the current youth movement will probably contend for a few more in about 2 or 3 years.

Don't hold your breath, there's a lot that can happen with prospects and Boston's group is middle of the pack overall. 2-3 years ago the Royals had a farm system that no one could stop raving about. They winning championships yet? May be harder than you think to become a contender with a youth movement, especially in the AL East.

FlakeyFool
09-13-2012, 11:35 AM
omg everyone be jealous of my favourite team so my e peen can be large

AI
09-13-2012, 02:14 PM
Don't hold your breath, there's a lot that can happen with prospects and Boston's group is middle of the pack overall. 2-3 years ago the Royals had a farm system that no one could stop raving about. They winning championships yet? May be harder than you think to become a contender with a youth movement, especially in the AL East.

Thing is, look at Boston's track record of developing talent?

Hanley Ramirez, Jon Lester, Dustin Pedroia, Clay Buchholz, Daniel Bard, Kevin Youkilis, Jonathan Papelbon, Justin Masterson, Jed Lowrie, Josh Reddick, Anthony Rizzo, Anibal Sanchez, etc. The list goes on.

While the Royals have picked first for years, Boston used the wallet to exploit the previous draft system (something the CBA fixed with the slot values, bonus pool and penalties) and has always been one of the best organizations when it comes to "drafting".

You may not know a lot about our farm, but it actually ranks as one of the top 10 (Sickels has said 6-8 range) in all of baseball so the "middle of the pact" statement couldn't be farther from the truth.

StryderSox
09-13-2012, 02:27 PM
Don't hold your breath, there's a lot that can happen with prospects and Boston's group is middle of the pack overall. 2-3 years ago the Royals had a farm system that no one could stop raving about. They winning championships yet? May be harder than you think to become a contender with a youth movement, especially in the AL East.

There are several differences here. First off before the RedSox decided to try and become the Yankees and just buy the best available player at each position they were one of the best organizations when it came to developing prospects. When they won in 2007 Youkilis, Pedroia, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Buchholz, Lester and Delcarmen were all players in between their 1st and 3rd MLB season that came up through the Red Sox system. Secondly unlike Kansas City Boston has the funding to able to keep the young players that fit well and fill any holes through Free Agency. Kansas City on the other hand is forced to field a team of prospects and fill their holes with scrapes from the free agency pile. They also have the disadvantage that when their prospects become good they will inevitably hit free agency and move on to another team with a larger payroll.

Kelly Gruber
09-13-2012, 04:12 PM
Thing is, look at Boston's track record of developing talent?

Hanley Ramirez, Jon Lester, Dustin Pedroia, Clay Buchholz, Daniel Bard, Kevin Youkilis, Jonathan Papelbon, Justin Masterson, Jed Lowrie, Josh Reddick, Anthony Rizzo, Anibal Sanchez, etc. The list goes on.

While the Royals have picked first for years, Boston used the wallet to exploit the previous draft system (something the CBA fixed with the slot values, bonus pool and penalties) and has always been one of the best organizations when it comes to "drafting".

You may not know a lot about our farm, but it actually ranks as one of the top 10 (Sickels has said 6-8 range) in all of baseball so the "middle of the pact" statement couldn't be farther from the truth.

It's not the same organization and prospects are never a sure thing. Just saying don't bet on it. Tougher than Red Sox fans are making it seem. Not like it's as easy to augment your team with massive free agents these days. And the draft doesn't work exactly the same as it did. Not to mention you're counting on a pretty average farm system to bring you to the promise land.

In my view there are the top 5 systems in baseball (Red Sox are not among them) and the bottom 5, the rest are middle of the pack and interchangeable depending on who you talk to, including Boston.

It seems pretty short-sighted to me to beleive a middle of the pack prospect pool is going to lead you to championships in "2-3" years, but have at it I guess... Good luck with that...

Kelly Gruber
09-13-2012, 04:15 PM
There are several differences here. First off before the RedSox decided to try and become the Yankees and just buy the best available player at each position they were one of the best organizations when it came to developing prospects. When they won in 2007 Youkilis, Pedroia, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Buchholz, Lester and Delcarmen were all players in between their 1st and 3rd MLB season that came up through the Red Sox system. Secondly unlike Kansas City Boston has the funding to able to keep the young players that fit well and fill any holes through Free Agency. Kansas City on the other hand is forced to field a team of prospects and fill their holes with scrapes from the free agency pile. They also have the disadvantage that when their prospects become good they will inevitably hit free agency and move on to another team with a larger payroll.

So the Red Sox are going to be saved, and competing for championships in 2-3 years with an average prospect pool, a re-tooled draft and less big time free agents hitting the market because they developed players well 5-10 years ago?

OK guys, good luck with that. See you in the World Series in 2015.

SenorGato
09-13-2012, 05:38 PM
I'll say this about Farrell...He was the guy I hoped the Cubs hired, but he took a managing job a year early.

After Mike Maddux there's not many pitching minds I can think of in the league that I'd rather have amongst the coaches in the league.

AI
09-13-2012, 05:43 PM
It's not the same organization and prospects are never a sure thing. Just saying don't bet on it. Tougher than Red Sox fans are making it seem. Not like it's as easy to augment your team with massive free agents these days. And the draft doesn't work exactly the same as it did. Not to mention you're counting on a pretty average farm system to bring you to the promise land.

In my view there are the top 5 systems in baseball (Red Sox are not among them) and the bottom 5, the rest are middle of the pack and interchangeable depending on who you talk to, including Boston.

It seems pretty short-sighted to me to beleive a middle of the pack prospect pool is going to lead you to championships in "2-3" years, but have at it I guess... Good luck with that...

How exactly is it not the same organization? That is utter rubbish. Just because Theo left it doesn't mean he took everything this organization values and does with him.

My main problem with your argument is, you are speaking on what you believe and not on what most knowledgeable Sox fans believe when it comes to the "situation" our organization is in.

I'm not saying "championship" because of our farm, but I am saying that our situation doesn't look as bad as other people project it to be when you take into consideration the prospects we do have and combine that with the financial position the organization is in going forward. It's a good problem to have.

Our farm is not middle of the pack, 15-25 is middle of the pack. There is something to be said for having a top 10 system which consists of as much depth as ours. Is it a top 5 farm? Not really, but it does have it's fair share of talent.

I can't speak for every Sox fan here, but the ones I do respect in this forum, agree with me when I say that we are not counting on every single prospect to "pan out". If 2-3 make it, awesome, but when you take a look at our track record of producing major league talent it shows that our organization is certainly doing something right when it comes to player development.

Will all prospects meet their ceiling/projection? It's simple, no. However, will we at the very least get some to do so and others who will provide at the very least average production? Yes. The same could be said for every good team with a top farm system, but our golden ticket is the endless amount of cap space we acquired which every team with a good farm system simply does not have. Some do, but most don't.

If the Rays, Royals, Padres, Athletics, Pirates, etc. miss badly on prospects do they have the wallet to fill those positions? No. Most of the times, they don't even have the wallet to keep the players that do pan out which is why teams are taking risks on signing young players to team-friendly extensions early in their career.

AI
09-13-2012, 05:48 PM
So the Red Sox are going to be saved, and competing for championships in 2-3 years with an average prospect pool, a re-tooled draft and less big time free agents hitting the market because they developed players well 5-10 years ago?

OK guys, good luck with that. See you in the World Series in 2015.

How can you be so blind to say that we developed players well 5-10 years ago?

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/building-through-the-draft-best-of-the-best/

Guess who is at the top? Stop making such bullish statements with no way to back them up, numbers don't lie buddy.

Toxeryll
09-14-2012, 01:13 AM
History lesson:

Boston Red Sox were the dominant AL team from 1903-1918 and again from 2003-2009 - with a total of 7 WS (4th all time).

Toronto OTOH was dominant from 1991-1993.

how dare the blue jays not win world series before they even existed!!

MagicBucsSox
09-14-2012, 02:06 AM
As a Blue Jays fan, I wouldnt dare let John Farrell go for cheap. If the Red Sox want him, they better be prepared to OVERPAY for him.

I dont know how many people on here know this, but some Blue Jays fans on this board are suggesting that the price for John Farrel would be Dustin Pedroia. I know its a steep price for a manager, but they have a point.

John Farrell waited for Francona to vacate soon, and instead of waiting around forever for him to leave or get fired/retire, he took action and went to another ball club. I think deep down inside he somewhat regrets leaving Boston. Just the way he is not confirming or denying the rumours is very suspicious to me (ie. all he is saying is..."Im under contract with Toronto.").

Lmaoooo yea a top 2 2nd basemen for a manager lmaooooooooooo. And being blue jay fans was their first idiotic action. There is no point

bagwell368
09-14-2012, 06:56 AM
how dare the blue jays not win world series before they even existed!!

Since the Jays came into existence they have been at .500 or under 19 out of 36 years - that's .44%. The Sox have been at .500 or under 8 out of 36 years of .22%.

In the last 15 years the Sox have been at/under once. The Jays 7 times.

Valleyfella
09-14-2012, 07:41 AM
The big difference between the Red Sox and Jays in getting back to the top is financial. The Red Sox will spend - although likely not as aggressively in the past - and the Jays have yet to show they are willing to. Yes, Tampa, Oakland and the Orioles are showing you can win without being near the top in payroll, but there are circumstantial elements - and luck - that factor into their success. The richest teams may not win all the time but they are usually the ones who need the fewest things to go right in order to do so.

Twitchy
09-14-2012, 08:22 AM
Let's get this thread back on topic about Red Sox and Farrell. If this nonsense about "jealousy" or Jays/Sox continues the thread is going to be locked.

StryderSox
09-14-2012, 10:33 AM
From a RedSox fan point of view the importance of John Farrell to the success of our pitching staff is overrated. Would it be nice to bring Farrell back? Of course. Is it a necessary? I doubt it. There are plenty of other pitching coaches out there (or manager candidates) that can get this team back on track. Mike Maddux is a great pitching coach in Texas and could be a possibility that has had success in handling pitchers. My point is that if Toronto wants a good asset as compensation (pretty much anything higher than a AA prospect) then it just isnt worth it and the Sox would be better to move on and start taking a serious look at Dave Martinez and Mike Maddux.

adab
09-14-2012, 11:04 AM
I've said it before and am saying it again. Why should the Jays bend over backward to help the Red Sox? Aren't they in the same division? If the Red Sox are desperate for Farrell, they should be forced to pay a very steep price. I'd say Farrell + Rasmus for Ellsbury + Buccholz+ prospect Anthony Ranaudo.
Otherwise the Red Sox should interview othyer candidates who won't cost anything in terms of players and or prospects.

AI
09-14-2012, 11:08 AM
Please close this thread.

StryderSox
09-14-2012, 11:57 AM
Please close this thread.

Agreed. This is just getting ridiculous

PS... Ellsbury, Buchholz and Ranaudo for Rasmus and a Manager? Really????

Kelly Gruber
09-14-2012, 01:00 PM
How exactly is it not the same organization? That is utter rubbish. Just because Theo left it doesn't mean he took everything this organization values and does with him.

My main problem with your argument is, you are speaking on what you believe and not on what most knowledgeable Sox fans believe when it comes to the "situation" our organization is in.

I'm not saying "championship" because of our farm, but I am saying that our situation doesn't look as bad as other people project it to be when you take into consideration the prospects we do have and combine that with the financial position the organization is in going forward. It's a good problem to have.

Our farm is not middle of the pack, 15-25 is middle of the pack. There is something to be said for having a top 10 system which consists of as much depth as ours. Is it a top 5 farm? Not really, but it does have it's fair share of talent.

I can't speak for every Sox fan here, but the ones I do respect in this forum, agree with me when I say that we are not counting on every single prospect to "pan out". If 2-3 make it, awesome, but when you take a look at our track record of producing major league talent it shows that our organization is certainly doing something right when it comes to player development.

Will all prospects meet their ceiling/projection? It's simple, no. However, will we at the very least get some to do so and others who will provide at the very least average production? Yes. The same could be said for every good team with a top farm system, but our golden ticket is the endless amount of cap space we acquired which every team with a good farm system simply does not have. Some do, but most don't.

If the Rays, Royals, Padres, Athletics, Pirates, etc. miss badly on prospects do they have the wallet to fill those positions? No. Most of the times, they don't even have the wallet to keep the players that do pan out which is why teams are taking risks on signing young players to team-friendly extensions early in their career.

There's a lot of typing here, but not much accomplished. I stand by my point. Good luck with that. Good to be confident in your team, but there's a reason 29 other fanbases don't see it your way. Red Sox are in a tough spot, like it or not.

Rivera
09-14-2012, 01:08 PM
no manager is worth more than an marginal A ball prospect and or cash

to ask for either buchholz, or bard or ranaduo is ridiculous the guy manages a baseball team he doesnt play

if toronto doesnt want to let him go thats their choice

the red sox would be dumb to trade for farrell for anything more than what i said above (marginal a ball prospect and or cash) managers are replaceable and the red sox will sign another manager before trading anything significant for ferrell which makes the jays have little to no leverage

AI
09-14-2012, 01:22 PM
There's a lot of typing here, but not much accomplished. I stand by my point.

So in other words, by ignoring my post it's evident I completely destroyed your "our organization was only good 5-10 years ago" argument. It's okay.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/building-through-the-draft-best-of-the-best/

There it is again, in case you missed it. :rolleyes:


Good luck with that. Good to be confident in your team, but there's a reason 29 other fanbases don't see it your way. Red Sox are in a tough spot, like it or not.

Actually, very few people do not like the direction this organization is heading in. I'm sure those 29 fanbases would love to be in the financial situation our organization is in after the Dodgers trade, not to mention, our farm is quite good as well. So cool, you stick by your point (saying stuff with nothing to really back it up) but I'm sticking by mine as well since taking 1 step back to take 3 steps forward is and always will be a good thing. Of course, these steps depend on what we do with our assets, this however, is something neither of us can predict.

StryderSox
09-14-2012, 01:53 PM
There's a lot of typing here, but not much accomplished. I stand by my point. Good luck with that. Good to be confident in your team, but there's a reason 29 other fanbases don't see it your way. Red Sox are in a tough spot, like it or not.

You have no point. You have an opinion of a farm system which it seems you know very little about and up until this point have failed to produce any evidence or facts to backup that opinion. You also seem to have some sort of tunnel vision that only allows you to see the farm system as a method of rebulding/retooling and have completely ignored the fact that Boston has tons of payroll space to fill in the holes as the right players become available.

infernoscurse
09-14-2012, 03:50 PM
the redsox need to hire wally backman

SenorGato
09-15-2012, 01:03 AM
You have no point. You have an opinion of a farm system which it seems you know very little about and up until this point have failed to produce any evidence or facts to backup that opinion. You also seem to have some sort of tunnel vision that only allows you to see the farm system as a method of rebulding/retooling and have completely ignored the fact that Boston has tons of payroll space to fill in the holes as the right players become available.

Hmm...This is common thought amongst Red Sox fans? Can you teach Cubs fans to think this way?

Kenny Powders
09-15-2012, 08:52 AM
Since the Jays came into existence they have been at .500 or under 19 out of 36 years - that's .44%. The Sox have been at .500 or under 8 out of 36 years of .22%.

In the last 15 years the Sox have been at/under once. The Jays 7 times.

Yet this year, 2012, the Red Sox are in dead last in the AL East.

/Argument

Yankee$ Hater
09-16-2012, 09:37 AM
Yet this year, 2012, the Red Sox are in dead last in the AL East.

/Argument

Which is an outlier, Jays are in their usual 4th.

Spiderdan22
09-16-2012, 10:55 AM
I dont like Farrell. dont mind giving him to boston and hire francona

Didn't Francona let his pitchers eat chicken and drink beer in the clubhouse during games?

scottythegreat1
09-16-2012, 11:30 AM
Francona isnt going to come back. I sure wouldnt if I were him.

Think about it, Lucchino & Co. decided to get rid of him and blame him for what has happened in Boston. They also let Theo Epstein walk as well. Those are the guys that built that World Series squad. Lucchino wanted to rebuild the team, well, in the end, he had to blow up the team. Not even bringing Francona back will help it out.

2009mvp
09-16-2012, 11:39 AM
Yeah, so?

BRS have far more fans, are in the thick of things to a much greater extent, have far more coverage in North America.

The topic is Farrell and only as an aside how pathetic the Jays have been the past 15 years, and how greedy their envious fans are.

Goi ahead and ask for the moon for Farrell. The Jays will end up squandering any shot at getting something and end up with nothing.

**** me, all along I thought it was about how arrogant and delusional Sawx fans are. Apparently going 2 for 94 makes you the envy of baseball :laugh2:

Kenny Powders
09-16-2012, 12:36 PM
Yeah, so?

BRS have far more fans, are in the thick of things to a much greater extent, have far more coverage in North America.

The topic is Farrell and only as an aside how pathetic the Jays have been the past 15 years, and how greedy their envious fans are.

Goi ahead and ask for the moon for Farrell. The Jays will end up squandering any shot at getting something and end up with nothing.

Why would Jays fans be envious of a team that has won the same amount of titles as they did in the past 94 years? I understand that you do know quite a bit about envy though, you must be just a bit butt hurt to be always playing second fiddle to the Yankees

nirvana235
09-16-2012, 01:25 PM
Yeah, so?

BRS have far more fans, are in the thick of things to a much greater extent, have far more coverage in North America.

The topic is Farrell and only as an aside how pathetic the Jays have been the past 15 years, and how greedy their envious fans are.

Goi ahead and ask for the moon for Farrell. The Jays will end up squandering any shot at getting something and end up with nothing.

Er... no need to take a shot at a fan base, and the Jays haven't been exactly pathetic the last 15 years, just that they play in a tough division and can't make the playoffs.

Every fan base has their fair share of "greedy and envious" fans but don't paint all of them with the same brush. Just like I'm not going to assume the whole Red Sox fan base are arrogant jerks like you.

Farsight
09-16-2012, 03:09 PM
Is there a possibility that the RedSox might pursue John Farrell? - Yeah, im sure hes a candidate, but the whole news report is based on speculation because of the current state the Sox are in. I did not hear from one reliable source that there was a good possibility of this occurring. Its all hearsay. Furthermore, i have no idea why some Jays fans believe that they will get anything substantial back. At best, they receive a mid level prospect, but nothing great.

Honestly, this thread has become silly, that is why i've been avoiding it. There is no point in attacking each fan base. Everyone has their opinion, that's fine, but there's no need for rudeness and immaturity. If someone doesn't agree with you, ignore their post... You will never be able to convince everyone of your opinion. Furthermore, there is an ignore feature, use it if you don't want to read someones posts

Kenny Powders
09-16-2012, 03:21 PM
How long have you been a fan? Why don't you chart how well they have done since you became a fan. BTW, our two most recent titles are more recent than your only two.

Good idea bringing up the Yanks. The pecking order in the AL East since TB got good finds Toronto in 4th place, only ahead of Baltimore. Too bad....

I've been a fanfor quite some time, so in my life time I seen both the Jays and the Sox win two world series'. What's your point?

Who decides this pecking order? You? how convenient. Because if I look at this so called pecking order it appears that everyone is ahead of the almighty red sox

2009mvp
09-16-2012, 04:25 PM
Way to cherry pick. the Jays are a 2nd tier franchise, and in the AL East 4th more often than not the past 15 years. Since the average fan here has been following their team for less than 15 years, so who cares about 94?

:facepalm:

Ruh-roh, someone's getting cranky! By the way, aren't you the one who just gave me a "history lesson" a couple pages back about how dominant the Sawx were a hundred years ago???

Twitchy
09-16-2012, 05:03 PM
Considering it's no longer about farrell and is just insults back and forth I'm locking this.