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View Full Version : Mike Trout reaches 10.0 WAR



floater
09-10-2012, 08:35 PM
http://angels.ocregister.com/2012/09/10/angels-trout-1st-in-war-1st-in-peace/125326/


The Angelsí dynamic rookie has led the majors in WAR for most of the season. By going 3 for 11 in the weekend sweep of the Tigers with a double, two leadoff home runs, four runs scored and another home run-robbing catch over the center field wall Troutís WAR moved to 10.0, almost four points above the next player (Yankees second baseman Robinson Cano at 6.3).

The last time a position player reached 10.0 in WAR was Giants slugger Barry Bonds who finished 2004 at 10.4 on his way to winning the last of his seven NL MVP awards. In more conventional terms, Bonds hit .362 with a .609 on-base percentage (thanks to a ridiculous 232 walks), .812 slugging percentage, 45 home runs and 101 RBI.

Albert Pujols led the National League in WAR for five consecutive seasons (2005-2009), topping out at 9.4 when he won his third MVP in 2009.

:clap::clap:


Troutís chief competition for the AL MVP award, Tigers third baseman Miguel Cabrera, was 1 for 9 with a single, no RBI or runs scored and was ejected from one game during the Angels-Tigers series in Anaheim. That dropped Cabreraís WAR for this season to 5.7, fourth in the AL behind Trout, Cano and Tigers teammate Justin Verlander (5.9).



:dance:

DodgerB24
09-10-2012, 08:37 PM
:worthy:

Toxeryll
09-10-2012, 08:53 PM
wowowowowow!!

Yankee Clipper
09-10-2012, 08:55 PM
Unbelievable.

dballss
09-10-2012, 09:01 PM
wrong thread

Yankee Clipper
09-10-2012, 09:04 PM
Who's AL MVP atm

Trout 77-63
HR 27 (13th)
RBI 77 (18th)
Runs 112 (1st)
Avg .328 (1st)
OPS .964 (2nd)
SB 44 (1st)

Cabrera 73-66
HR 35 (4th)
RBI 116 (2nd)
Runs 89 (4th)
Avg .326 (2nd)
OPS .980 (1st)
Hits 174 (2nd)

:laugh2:

Texas Holders
09-10-2012, 09:05 PM
Who's AL MVP atm

Trout 77-63
HR 27 (13th)
RBI 77 (18th)
Runs 112 (1st)
Avg .328 (1st)
OPS .964 (2nd)
SB 44 (1st)

Cabrera 73-66
HR 35 (4th)
RBI 116 (2nd)
Runs 89 (4th)
Avg .326 (2nd)
OPS .980 (1st)
Hits 174 (2nd)

RBIs...if a voter takes RBIs into consideration, they should be banned from anything related to baseball.

LASportsFan1996
09-10-2012, 09:06 PM
:speechless:

Nymfan87
09-10-2012, 09:36 PM
I don't buy that he's been a +27 run defender, but he's definitely kicked some serious *** this year. Should be the unanimous AL MVP.

MetsFanatic19
09-10-2012, 09:39 PM
M-V-P
M-V-P
M-V-P

That is all.

Burkey3472
09-10-2012, 09:44 PM
Guy has been a beast, he is the reason why I am going to win my fantasy league :laugh2:

natepro
09-10-2012, 09:53 PM
My future husband.

natepro
09-10-2012, 10:02 PM
This seems to be using B-Ref's WAR, because FanGraphs still has him at 8.5, but BR has him at 10.0.


So, going by their WAR, he's currently tied for #142 all-time for WAR in a single season. Even adding 0.5 the rest of the way would move him up to 99, adding 1.0 would move him up to the high-to-mid 60's.

Oh yeah, and he's a rookie. That's mind-blowing.

Jeffy25
09-10-2012, 10:14 PM
This seems to be using B-Ref's WAR, because FanGraphs still has him at 8.5, but BR has him at 10.0.


So, going by their WAR, he's currently tied for #142 all-time for WAR in a single season. Even adding 0.5 the rest of the way would move him up to 99, adding 1.0 would move him up to the high-to-mid 60's.

Oh yeah, and he's a rookie. That's mind-blowing.

What's funny, is that it is harder for a strong defensive player to move forward in WAR on baseball-reference. It's just a testament to how good he has been.

Kemp did reach a 10.0 WAR last year as well (B-R)

natepro
09-10-2012, 10:36 PM
To also put that 10 in a little perspective:

Michael Young has been in the MLB for 13 seasons. He has just a little over double (21.9) what Trout has done in a single season.

If Trout were to, somehow, keep up this pace (I'm not saying he will, this is just for the sake of discussion), it would only take him a little over 11 years to equal the 111.4 A-Rod has amassed in 19 years.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_active.shtml



Very much a side note, but in 12 seasons Pujols has done more than Chipper has done in 19, Jeter in 18, Thome in 22, and Man-Ram in 19. That's insane.

Jeffy25
09-10-2012, 10:40 PM
You want context.

Here is context.

He is the only player in baseball history to have a 10.0 rWAR season before his age 22 season.

Ted Williams had one in his age 22 season

Willie Mays, Ted Williams (twice), Eddie Collins, and Ty Cobb all had seasons in their age 23 season.


There is the context for you.

natepro
09-10-2012, 10:44 PM
You want context.

Here is context.

He is the only player in baseball history to have a 10.0 rWAR season before his age 22 season.

Ted Williams had one in his age 22 season

Willie Mays, Ted Williams (twice), Eddie Collins, and Ty Cobb all had seasons in their age 23 season.


There is the context for you.

I wanna touch him.

Pierzynski4Prez
09-10-2012, 10:59 PM
you're scaring us nate

natepro
09-10-2012, 11:13 PM
you're scaring us nate

You misspelled "jealous."

Texas Holders
09-11-2012, 12:38 AM
Just imagine if he started opening day...

jp611
09-11-2012, 01:31 AM
I'm very jealous... He is scary good... That is amazing, I'll never forget when I saw him playing for the Cedar Rapids Kernels... He was so good, I remember telling my girlfriend how he wouldn't be in cedar rapids much longer because he was gonna be in the pros soon... I didn't ever think he would be this good

JNA17
09-11-2012, 07:40 AM
He has a horrible name though. Seriously...Trout...Wtf kind of last name is that? XD

Pinstripe pride
09-11-2012, 08:49 AM
Mike Trout is good at baseball

Greedy22
09-11-2012, 10:55 AM
I wanna touch him.

:laugh:

ciaban
09-11-2012, 11:41 AM
You want context.

Here is context.

He is the only player in baseball history to have a 10.0 rWAR season before his age 22 season.

Ted Williams had one in his age 22 season

Willie Mays, Ted Williams (twice), Eddie Collins, and Ty Cobb all had seasons in their age 23 season.


There is the context for you.
babe ruth did it at 21, so did matt kilroy, tommy bond, charlie sweeny and bill rhine, todd ramsey

scott straton did it at 20, so did kid nicholis, Silver King and dwight gooden

oh and so did mike smith though he was 19

Ron!n
09-11-2012, 11:58 AM
The sad part is Heyman recently wrote an article about how most scouts see it a tie between Cabrera and Trout for the MVP.

KingPosey
09-11-2012, 12:03 PM
Im sure flimsy defensive metrics helped out, God they are bull ****. But I love Trout. No flaws in the kid's game.

KingPosey
09-11-2012, 12:06 PM
I'm very jealous... He is scary good... That is amazing, I'll never forget when I saw him playing for the Cedar Rapids Kernels... He was so good, I remember telling my girlfriend how he wouldn't be in cedar rapids much longer because he was gonna be in the pros soon... I didn't ever think he would be this good

Were you saying that with tears running down your face while she sat on his lap and fed him popcorn?

Cuz I did....:(

Jeffy25
09-11-2012, 02:43 PM
babe ruth did it at 21, so did matt kilroy, tommy bond, charlie sweeny and bill rhine, todd ramsey

scott straton did it at 20, so did kid nicholis, Silver King and dwight gooden

oh and so did mike smith though he was 19

Position players, sorry.

Texas Holders
09-11-2012, 07:37 PM
Im sure flimsy defensive metrics helped out, God they are bull ****. But I love Trout. No flaws in the kid's game.

Well, taking away fielding and base running, he is still #1 according to fangraphs, followed by Braun, then Cabrera.

S.P.
09-11-2012, 07:41 PM
He has a horrible name though. Seriously...Trout...Wtf kind of last name is that? XD

Plus his name has "out" in it.

Rain City
09-11-2012, 08:08 PM
the dude is too good to be true, i dont know what to say, people who are not baseball fans are missing out.

Guppyfighter
09-11-2012, 09:02 PM
I hope he breaks his ankle.

-A's fan.

R. Johnson#3
09-11-2012, 09:08 PM
Just imagine if Tim Salmon was still around. The Angels would have to change their name to The Holy Fish.

rkelly7
09-11-2012, 09:08 PM
Although what he has done this year is amazing and he will be MVP, I believe this will be his only MVP award. He isn't the next coming of jesus, although he is close.

Rain City
09-11-2012, 09:21 PM
Although what he has done this year is amazing and he will be MVP, I believe this will be his only MVP award. He isn't the next coming of jesus, although he is close.

if i were the angels id scale back on the SBs, maybe even move him to LF, he might peak early because a guy cant play that hard every night and recover well enough to produce at this level when he reaches the latter half of his 20s (which is still a ways away for him).... he crashes full speed into walls and slides head first into bases and busts it out of the batters box every AB...

Other than that, nothing suggests he wont be a legendary player, he has the plate discipline, the power, the quick and level swing, instincts, desire, speeeed, glove, grit... u cant pitch around him, a walk is a dbl, and he has top notch hr, and dbl, triple power, a short, easy to repeat stroke keeps him from getting into prolonged slumps... one of the few Game Changers.

better yet if i were the angels id just trade him over to the Ms while he has a peak value, they can have guti, walker and hultzen :D

onlythisfar41
09-11-2012, 09:31 PM
Absolutely unreal what this guy has done. It drives me crazy that the Yankees were inches away from drafting him before the Halos swooped in and grabbed him right before.

It makes me drool thinking of what he could do for our lineup. Oh well congrats to Angels fans because this guy is going to dominate for years and years and years.

Texas Holders
09-11-2012, 09:40 PM
Check these tweets out:


Mike Trout Facts
@MikeTroutFacts When there's an emergency, 911 calls Mike Trout. #Angels


Mike Trout Facts
@MikeTroutFacts Mike Trout once answered one of those Nigerian scam emails. They actually sent him the money. #Angels


Mike Trout Facts
@MikeTroutFacts News from Cooperstown: The Hall of Fame will be renamed the Hall of Fame Wing of the Hall of Mike Trout. #Angels

kmo429
09-11-2012, 10:57 PM
RBIs...if a voter takes RBIs into consideration, they should be banned from anything related to baseball.

Im confused as ****. Is this serious??/ RBI should be one of the BIGGEST components in deciding who the Most VALUABLE Player is. What's better to judge how valuable a player is to his team than how many runs he created through homeruns, base hits, walks, etc.? A team's leading RBI getter knocked in more runs for hsi team than anyone else (seems simple but you dont understand it). Yeah, lineup position and protection and such can affect RBI's, but usually your best hitters will be your 3-5 guys, and theyll get more RBI opportunity. If in the rare case that a leadoff type guy is having a phenomonal year, he will eb recognized regardless of his RBI count. In all other scenarios, RBI is one of the most important factors in fairly determining who the most valiuable player in the league is

Texas Holders
09-11-2012, 11:06 PM
Im confused as ****. Is this serious??/ RBI should be one of the BIGGEST components in deciding who the Most VALUABLE Player is. What's better to judge how valuable a player is to his team than how many runs he created through homeruns, base hits, walks, etc.? A team's leading RBI getter knocked in more runs for hsi team than anyone else (seems simple but you dont understand it). Yeah, lineup position and protection and such can affect RBI's, but usually your best hitters will be your 3-5 guys, and theyll get more RBI opportunity. If in the rare case that a leadoff type guy is having a phenomonal year, he will eb recognized regardless of his RBI count. In all other scenarios, RBI is one of the most important factors in fairly determining who the most valiuable player in the league is

Trout is a lead off guy, but regardless, the amount of RBIs a guy had depends on how well the players ahead of him get on base. Two players could have identical offensive stats...(same number of singles, doubles, etc...) yet could have a vastly different number of RBIs. If you want to know the number of runs created, use wRC+.

Jeffy25
09-11-2012, 11:30 PM
Im confused as ****. Is this serious??/ RBI should be one of the BIGGEST components in deciding who the Most VALUABLE Player is. What's better to judge how valuable a player is to his team than how many runs he created through homeruns, base hits, walks, etc.? A team's leading RBI getter knocked in more runs for hsi team than anyone else (seems simple but you dont understand it). Yeah, lineup position and protection and such can affect RBI's, but usually your best hitters will be your 3-5 guys, and theyll get more RBI opportunity. If in the rare case that a leadoff type guy is having a phenomonal year, he will eb recognized regardless of his RBI count. In all other scenarios, RBI is one of the most important factors in fairly determining who the most valiuable player in the league is

Are you being serious?

We know how ridiculous RBI's are in player evaluation.

Ridiculously Bad Indicator is what it should stand for. It is completely a team statistic.

There is a direct correlation from RBI's to number of PA with men on base, and it isn't based on how well the hitter hits with men on base. If it did, Joey Votto would be the best RBI man in baseball every season.

Do you believe Chase Headley has been better offensively this year than Ryan Braun?
Is Hunter Pence been better than Andrew McCutchen?

The real information?
Pence has 207 PA with men in scoring position this year, the most in baseball.
Headley has 188

Braun has 155
Cutch has 152

And what's funny, aside from Cutch and Braun being far better hitters this season then Pence and Headley, they have each also hit better with runners in scoring position than Pence and Headley

Batting average with runners in scoring position
Pence - .257
Headley - .281
Braun - .303
Cutch - .339

RBI's are completely team dependent, and have absolutely nothing to do with the hitter themselves.

theproof
09-12-2012, 01:26 AM
That's ****ing insane. Especially for a rookie. Wow

JobaRules26
09-12-2012, 02:33 AM
Trout is the second coming of Mays. FU Ron Washington. Dude is a beast!

UCF2007
09-12-2012, 02:58 AM
I drafted this guy in the last round of my league thinking he would just improve on his experience from last season, but WOW. He is the reason I am going to win it.

Either way he should easily win the MVP and deserves it, especially if the Angels make then playoff, but I have a feeling if they don't and the Tigers do/win the division they will give it to Miggie. Who has had a great season, but Trout's is just so incredibly unbelievable I don't even know how to really describe it.

He is like Ken Griffey Jr. Jr., or just Ken Griffey III for the sticklers :)

Halladay
09-12-2012, 04:37 AM
It's really a shame that writers actually believe anyone is even near Trout in MVP voting. The fact that he's a rookie makes it mind blowing, don't think I've ever seen a guy at his age ever do this. There isn't one area of the game where he's not a factor. How Cabrera, a great hitter but that's it, will get votes vs a guy who's just as good with the bat, blows him away defensively and is ridiculous at the running game...how could you justify voting for anyone else?

Jeffy25
09-12-2012, 05:05 AM
It's really a shame that writers actually believe anyone is even near Trout in MVP voting. The fact that he's a rookie makes it mind blowing, don't think I've ever seen a guy at his age ever do this. There isn't one area of the game where he's not a factor. How Cabrera, a great hitter but that's it, will get votes vs a guy who's just as good with the bat, blows him away defensively and is ridiculous at the running game...how could you justify voting for anyone else?

Pretty much


Oh, and he plays the harder position

odiz
09-12-2012, 05:43 AM
Im confused as ****. Is this serious??/ RBI should be one of the BIGGEST components in deciding who the Most VALUABLE Player is. What's better to judge how valuable a player is to his team than how many runs he created through homeruns, base hits, walks, etc.? A team's leading RBI getter knocked in more runs for hsi team than anyone else (seems simple but you dont understand it). Yeah, lineup position and protection and such can affect RBI's, but usually your best hitters will be your 3-5 guys, and theyll get more RBI opportunity. If in the rare case that a leadoff type guy is having a phenomonal year, he will eb recognized regardless of his RBI count. In all other scenarios, RBI is one of the most important factors in fairly determining who the most valiuable player in the league is

You have 21,000 posts on this site and this is your viewpoint? So Soriano and Laroche are both having better seasons then Bonds did in '03?

ciaban
09-12-2012, 06:37 AM
if i were the angels id scale back on the SBs, maybe even move him to LF, he might peak early because a guy cant play that hard every night and recover well enough to produce at this level when he reaches the latter half of his 20s (which is still a ways away for him).... he crashes full speed into walls and slides head first into bases and busts it out of the batters box every AB...

Other than that, nothing suggests he wont be a legendary player, he has the plate discipline, the power, the quick and level swing, instincts, desire, speeeed, glove, grit... u cant pitch around him, a walk is a dbl, and he has top notch hr, and dbl, triple power, a short, easy to repeat stroke keeps him from getting into prolonged slumps... one of the few Game Changers.

better yet if i were the angels id just trade him over to the Ms while he has a peak value, they can have guti, walker and hultzen :D
if bourjous starts next year, then trout will be in LF, because he is the superior defender, i would also like to see bourjous lead off and have trout hit #2 in front of albert.

Are you being serious?

We know how ridiculous RBI's are in player evaluation.

Ridiculously Bad Indicator is what it should stand for. It is completely a team statistic.

There is a direct correlation from RBI's to number of PA with men on base, and it isn't based on how well the hitter hits with men on base. If it did, Joey Votto would be the best RBI man in baseball every season.

Do you believe Chase Headley has been better offensively this year than Ryan Braun?
Is Hunter Pence been better than Andrew McCutchen?

The real information?
Pence has 207 PA with men in scoring position this year, the most in baseball.
Headley has 188

Braun has 155
Cutch has 152

And what's funny, aside from Cutch and Braun being far better hitters this season then Pence and Headley, they have each also hit better with runners in scoring position than Pence and Headley

Batting average with runners in scoring position
Pence - .257
Headley - .281
Braun - .303
Cutch - .339

RBI's are completely team dependent, and have absolutely nothing to do with the hitter themselves.
while rbi are far from a perfect stat, it's interesting to look at, for reference in 1931 babe ruth had 163 rbi hitting 3rd infront of Gehrig, who after have ruth clear bases went on to hit 184. And i would say that headley has been better than everyone in baseball through the 2nd half

ciaban
09-12-2012, 06:40 AM
Just imagine if Tim Salmon was still around. The Angels would have to change their name to The Holy Fish.

in 15 years or so we will draft a young out fielder by the name of Mark Mackerel, he will be a Mormon, and every time he does something awesome people will shout HOLY MACKEREL! Which will complete our Holy Fish Trinity!

ShockerArt
09-12-2012, 09:45 AM
Im confused as ****. Is this serious??/ RBI should be one of the BIGGEST components in deciding who the Most VALUABLE Player is. What's better to judge how valuable a player is to his team than how many runs he created through homeruns, base hits, walks, etc.? A team's leading RBI getter knocked in more runs for hsi team than anyone else (seems simple but you dont understand it). Yeah, lineup position and protection and such can affect RBI's, but usually your best hitters will be your 3-5 guys, and theyll get more RBI opportunity. If in the rare case that a leadoff type guy is having a phenomonal year, he will eb recognized regardless of his RBI count. In all other scenarios, RBI is one of the most important factors in fairly determining who the most valiuable player in the league is


Not sure if you're trolling or serious, but either way :laugh:

natepro
09-12-2012, 10:12 AM
if bourjous starts next year, then trout will be in LF, because he is the superior defender, i would also like to see bourjous lead off and have trout hit #2 in front of albert.

Bourjos doesn't have the OBP to lead off.

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 05:51 PM
Now that the season is over, I thought I would share this information


Trout had a 10.0 fWAR

It is the 91st time in baseball history that has been done

It ties Jackie Robinson (49)
Joe Morgan (73)
Rogers Hornsby (17)
Mike Schmidt (74)
A-Rod (02)
Frank Frisch (27)
in having exactly 10.0 fWAR

Only A-Rod isn't a hall of famer (which he hasn't even retired yet)


And he ended with a 10.7 rWAR
Which is the 22nd time that has ever been done in baseball history (obviously it's easier to get 10.0 fWAR, than it is to get a 10.0 rWAR)

And it ties Ted Williams in 46 and Willie Mays from 64

He is also the youngest to have a 10 WAR season in either format by 4 years (Mantle in 56 and Gehrig in 27)
and nobody has ever had a 10.0 rWAR and not been a hall of famer except for Barry Bonds, who hasn't been on the ballot yet.

natsbats
10-08-2012, 10:03 PM
I've always wondered why it's so rare for a player of the past 20 years to have a high WAR like those guys playing 40-50-60 years ago who were having 10 WAR+ seasons routinely.

Evolution is part of everything. Why does it seem like dominant baseball players have severely regressed to the point now where 2012 Trout & 2000 ARod (still clean at this point) are the only guys in the last 15 years to have a 10+ rWAR? (I Do not count the steroid user seasons of Bonds or Sosa, they are tainted)

Jeffy25
10-08-2012, 11:28 PM
I've always wondered why it's so rare for a player of the past 20 years to have a high WAR like those guys playing 40-50-60 years ago who were having 10 WAR+ seasons routinely.

Evolution is part of everything. Why does it seem like dominant baseball players have severely regressed to the point now where 2012 Trout & 2000 ARod (still clean at this point) are the only guys in the last 15 years to have a 10+ rWAR? (I Do not count the steroid user seasons of Bonds or Sosa, they are tainted)

Because the disparity between the best and the worst in the game has dwindled by the specialization of the sport.

Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby, and Walter Johnson were so far ahead of the league averages because they were so revolutionary for the sport.

Now the sport has become a little more specialized, there are far more players and teams, and they play more games. So you have a smaller separation between the best and the league average, so you won't be finding many 10 WAR seasons any longer.

natsbats
10-09-2012, 12:31 AM
So WAR is best used as an era specific tool? That is, it's not really smart to compare the WAR of someones career of say, Mike Trouts when he's all finished, to that of a Babe Ruth or Hornsby?

Because the replacement now is much better than the replacement back then? Am I getting that right?

Jeffy25
10-09-2012, 01:04 AM
So WAR is best used as an era specific tool? That is, it's not really smart to compare the WAR of someones career of say, Mike Trouts when he's all finished, to that of a Babe Ruth or Hornsby?

Because the replacement now is much better than the replacement back then? Am I getting that right?

It's basically impossible to compare players to different eras because of the vast differences in the game, technology, and the culture around the game are insanely different.

Every decade the game changes drastically.


WAR is about as good as you are going to get to compare from separate eras though, but there isn't really any way to do it.

natepro
10-09-2012, 03:55 AM
It's actually a lot like what's happening in MMA right now.

It used to be that someone who was very good at one thing (Gracie and his BJJ, for example) could utterly dominate. But the sport is evolving, people are becoming dominate in multiple areas, and even the not-so-great fighters have a working knowledge of wrestling, BJJ, boxing, etc.

People like Gracie and Ken Shamrock used to be able to dominate, but now they'd get destroyed by the fighters of today. They were Gherig and Ruth. And now, they're just people from a different era that wouldn't be what they are in today's game.

Pinstripe pride
10-09-2012, 09:19 AM
MVP............................................... .................................................. ..is miguel cabrera

ciaban
10-09-2012, 10:35 AM
Pretty much


Oh, and he plays the harder position


Bourjos doesn't have the OBP to lead off.

to bad obp isn't a god stat, it's important to look at but not perfect, he has shown an improvement in his ability to walk the last 2 years despite not getting enough plate appearances this year, i think given the chance he can get his avg high enough to have an obp close to 400, also, were kind of wasting his ability to drive in runners by leading him off,

natepro
10-09-2012, 06:56 PM
MVP............................................... .................................................. ..is miguel cabrera

Funny posts are funny.

natepro
10-09-2012, 06:59 PM
to bad obp isn't a god stat, it's important to look at but not perfect, he has shown an improvement in his ability to walk the last 2 years despite not getting enough plate appearances this year, i think given the chance he can get his avg high enough to have an obp close to 400, also, were kind of wasting his ability to drive in runners by leading him off,

What on earth are you smoking?!

What about Bourjos has shown an ability to get a .400 OBP? Was it his career .347 OBP in the minors? His zero years of a .400 OBP in any season minors or majors? :confused: