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View Full Version : Where do you Rank Reggie Miller



AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 07:21 PM
Well there's a hour long show honoring Miller's induction to the Hall of Fame on NBATV right now. Where would you rank him among other shooting guards. I think i would place his 3rd. Behind Jordan and Kobe, however if Miller was on some of the teams Kobe was on i think he would have won more championships. What do you guys think?

JNoel
09-04-2012, 07:27 PM
Reggie's 4th behind no order SG: Jordan, Wade, Kobe

sturm
09-04-2012, 07:33 PM
my wade clearly better that him. (already now)

AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 07:34 PM
Reggie's 4th behind no order SG: Jordan, Wade, Kobe

Typical Heat fan. Sorry to say it but Miller's sheer clutchness ranks him over Wade easily. And for now Kobe's longevity and ability to still rank among to top scorers at the age of 33 makes me rank him over Wade for now. And Wade was unable to claim a title as the man with lebron. If miller had lebron. LOL wow. talk about open shots all day.

I Rock Shaqs
09-04-2012, 07:34 PM
4th Best. Better quetsion would be where do people rank Ray Allen?

abe_froman
09-04-2012, 07:37 PM
Typical Heat fan. Sorry to say it but Miller's sheer clutchness ranks him over Wade easily. And for now Kobe's longevity and ability to still rank among to top scorers at the age of 33 makes me rank him over Wade for now. And Wade was unable to claim a title as the man with lebron. If miller had lebron. LOL wow. talk about open shots all day.

not around in 06?

and lol no,i like reggie but he's more bottom half of the top ten

JNoel
09-04-2012, 07:38 PM
Typical Heat fan. Sorry to say it but Miller's sheer clutchness ranks him over Wade easily. And for now Kobe's longevity and ability to still rank among to top scorers at the age of 33 makes me rank him over Wade for now. And Wade was unable to claim a title as the man with lebron. If miller had lebron. LOL wow. talk about open shots all day.
Wade is undderrated, has been for a while.

4th Best. Better quetsion would be where do people rank Ray Allen?
5th

jerellh528
09-04-2012, 07:40 PM
I would rank him 3rd best SG behind jordan and kobe, I might be a little biased though because we are both alumni of good ol' poly high school in riverside.

Lakerhead4ever
09-04-2012, 07:44 PM
Reggie's 4th behind no order SG: Jordan, Wade, Kobe

wade is a great player but can someone tell me what this guy has done that he should be included in conversations with miller, west, kobe, jordan?

i understand people will immediately go to the 06 finals (which was great). but what else? what is he known for?

nothing has ever impressed me other than the 06 finals.

and how is he 3rd best sg of all time? what about drexler? west? miller? allen iverson?

to me, wade is just as good as melo. just my opinion.

Chacarron
09-04-2012, 07:44 PM
Jordan, Kobe, Wade, West, Drexler, Gervin (if he's considered a SG), then Reggie.

jerellh528
09-04-2012, 07:47 PM
wade is a great player but can someone tell me what this guy has done that he should be included in conversations with miller, west, kobe, jordan?

i understand people will immediately go to the 06 finals (which was great). but what else? what is he known for?

nothing has ever impressed me other than the 06 finals.

and how is he 3rd best sg of all time? what about drexler? west? miller? allen iverson?

to me, wade is just as good as melo. just my opinion.

I agree, wade never lived up to his potential/ hype.

JNoel
09-04-2012, 07:49 PM
wade is a great player but can someone tell me what this guy has done that he should be included in conversations with miller, west, kobe, jordan?

i understand people will immediately go to the 06 finals (which was great). but what else? what is he known for?

nothing has ever impressed me other than the 06 finals.

and how is he 3rd best sg of all time? what about drexler? west? miller? allen iverson?

to me, wade is just as good as melo. just my opinion.

Should've won MVP in 2009 over LeBron, averaged 30+ points a game and had very similar assist, rebound, steals, blocks stats to LBJ.

Jesse2272
09-04-2012, 07:50 PM
All time greatest





















Mr. Potato head look a like:cool:

AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 07:50 PM
not around in 06?

and lol no,i like reggie but he's more bottom half of the top ten

06 was different. he had shaq and mourning. And he was more athletic back then. Wades, game is dependent on his athleticism. I don't know how he adjust to age. I need to wait to see before i put him over Kobe and Miller. Miller had 8 those 8 points in a few seconds. And then that awesome 4th quarter in the 1994 ECF game 4. awe inspiring

TheLegend
09-04-2012, 07:52 PM
wade is a great player but can someone tell me what this guy has done that he should be included in conversations with miller, west, kobe, jordan?

i understand people will immediately go to the 06 finals (which was great). but what else? what is he known for?

nothing has ever impressed me other than the 06 finals.

and how is he 3rd best sg of all time? what about drexler? west? miller? allen iverson?

to me, wade is just as good as melo. just my opinion.

You're kind of exposing yourself a little bit when you factor in that Wade has 2 rings, and 1 where he led the Heat to the title. Miller, though a great player, has zero championships.

Lakerhead4ever
09-04-2012, 07:58 PM
Should've won MVP in 2009 over LeBron, averaged 30+ points a game and had very similar assist, rebound, steals, blocks stats to LBJ.

thats why hes 3rd all time? are u serious? lebron rightfully won thoughs mvp's because his team was better


You're kind of exposing yourself a little bit when you factor in that Wade has 2 rings, and 1 where he led the Heat to the title. Miller, though a great player, has zero championships.

wades legacy will never be greater than millers.

i always tell people lebron and wade teaming up didnt hurt lebrons legacy, it hurt wades. i agree wade had the potential to be a top sg but now he never will.

sturm
09-04-2012, 07:58 PM
wade is a great player but can someone tell me what this guy has done that he should be included in conversations with miller, west, kobe, jordan?

i understand people will immediately go to the 06 finals (which was great). but what else? what is he known for?

nothing has ever impressed me other than the 06 finals.

and how is he 3rd best sg of all time? what about drexler? west? miller? allen iverson?

to me, wade is just as good as melo. just my opinion.:facepalm:

just look his profile in Wiki, and then look Melo boy and Reggie.

abe_froman
09-04-2012, 08:00 PM
06 was different. he had shaq and mourning. And he was more athletic back then. Wades, game is dependent on his athleticism. I don't know how he adjust to age. I need to wait to see before i put him over Kobe and Miller. Miller had 8 those 8 points in a few seconds. And then that awesome 4th quarter in the 1994 ECF game 4. awe inspiring

but that was just one event as well,if your going to knock wade for only doing it in 06(wade did it in more games no less).then you have to have to hold reggie to the same(just having 94).

shaq and mourning werent primes then,and reggie had really good team put around him as well.i like reggie,watched him alot growing up,even met him. but in no way is he better than wade(even he'd say that).i'm glad he's going into the hall and thought he was underrated by many others who are stat/history nerds like me..but there are more than a few better than himthat lade him highest about 5th or 6th among sg(lower in my rankings)

Lakerhead4ever
09-04-2012, 08:04 PM
:facepalm:

just look his profile in Wiki, and then look Melo boy and Reggie.

wiki? you mean the same wiki that i can go on there and right information if i wanted too?

sorry but wiki wont change my opinion.

sturm
09-04-2012, 08:12 PM
then die with your laker head opinion. (joke)

AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 08:18 PM
but that was just one event as well,if your going to knock wade for only doing it in 06(wade did it in more games no less).then you have to have to hold reggie to the same(just having 94).

shaq and mourning werent primes then,and reggie had really good team put around him as well.i like reggie,watched him alot growing up,even met him. but in no way is he better than wade(even he'd say that).i'm glad he's going into the hall and thought he was underrated by many others who are stat/history nerds like me..but there are more than a few better than himthat lade him highest about 5th or 6th among sg(lower in my rankings)

I'm sorry but how many stars were on that Indiana team? What about the buzzer beater against Jordan for the win. He managed to extend the only playoff series he played against the bulls to 7 games. I think that if Jordan didn't play in the same era, he could have at least gotten to finals more than once. And yes they weren't the same players, but they still were putting up numbers. Shaq wasn't as bad in Miami as he was when he got to Cleveland. And when Wade and Lebron teamed up they still managed to lose. I'm not discrediting Wade and what hes accomplished, I would just rather have Millers killer instinct on my team. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwRQ9UsUEJE

AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 08:21 PM
And if you took off Miller from those Pacer teams i doubt they would have still been a playoff team. If you go to 06 and 11 Miami teams, If you take Wade out of the equation i think they can still be playoff teams.

And are all of you talking about Jerry West? Cuz from my understanding he played PG and Goodrich played SG

JNoel
09-04-2012, 08:22 PM
Wade is undderrated, end of story.

AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 08:27 PM
Wade is undderrated, end of story.

i would place him in top 5 SG behind the fore-mentioned guys. I would give him 4th but i never got to see Clyde Drexler or some of the other great SG.

And AI was a PG so i wouldn't place him in this discussion

Jeff559
09-04-2012, 08:30 PM
I loved Reggie back in the day, but he had major holes in his game on both ends of the floor. He often had trouble getting his own shot off, and often had plays ran for him that involved double and triple screens. He had a couple of amazing playoff series, and obviously was clutch; but I cannot see him being ranked ahead of DWade. He is in the top ten, but definitely not top 5.

IndiansFan337
09-04-2012, 08:44 PM
He's definitely behind MJ, Kobe, and Drexler.

Personally, I'd put him behind Wade and Ray Allen too.

It's very hard to compare the guys from the 80's-present to the earlier generations because of the added 3 pt line, increased athleticism, etc. You can debate some of those guys from the 50's-70's should be highly regarded, but I am not going to compare them to the newer generations.

AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 08:45 PM
I loved Reggie back in the day, but he had major holes in his game on both ends of the floor. He often had trouble getting his own shot off, and often had plays ran for him that involved double and triple screens. He had a couple of amazing playoff series, and obviously was clutch; but I cannot see him being ranked ahead of DWade. He is in the top ten, but definitely not top 5.

18 season long career. I highly doubt Wade and his level of play can make it 18 seasons. His game relies too much on athleticism for him to have the same level of play Miller had after 18 seasons at the age of 39.

Also he was one of the better perimeter defenders in the game at his prime. And what he excelled at was using the parts of his game that he was good at.

Chronz
09-04-2012, 09:00 PM
LOL hes not even in Wade's league, not in Drexler's league, definitely not in West's league. There are a **** load of SG's I would take before Reggie. Your talking about a guy who wasnt even a lock for the All-Star game in his prime. A guy who had the team to win a chip but lacked the star to go all the way.

Jeff559
09-04-2012, 09:06 PM
18 season long career. I highly doubt Wade and his level of play can make it 18 seasons. His game relies too much on athleticism for him to have the same level of play Miller had after 18 seasons at the age of 39.

Also he was one of the better perimeter defenders in the game at his prime. And what he excelled at was using the parts of his game that he was good at.
Touche. He should get credit for his longativity. But still, his last 5-6 seasons in the league he was far from the player he was in his prime; and became more of a role player than a star during his latter years.

Chronz
09-04-2012, 09:14 PM
18 season long career. I highly doubt Wade and his level of play can make it 18 seasons. His game relies too much on athleticism for him to have the same level of play Miller had after 18 seasons at the age of 39.

Also he was one of the better perimeter defenders in the game at his prime. And what he excelled at was using the parts of his game that he was good at.

Better perimeter defenders? Twig boy? Based on what?

Raidaz4Life
09-04-2012, 09:15 PM
Reggie Miller is one of my favorite players ever but to say he is a top 5 SG is laughable. Hell I'd rank Ray Allen hire than Reggie Miller.

AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 09:27 PM
LOL hes not even in Wade's league, not in Drexler's league, definitely not in West's league. There are a **** load of SG's I would take before Reggie. Your talking about a guy who wasnt even a lock for the All-Star game in his prime. A guy who had the team to win a chip but lacked the star to go all the way.

Well let me ask you this. Your team is down 1 or 2 points. you only have time to run 1 play out of a time out(meaning the other team has the time to set their defense around the paint.). would you rather have D-Wade taking the shot? Or Reggie Miller? I personally would prefer having Miller take that shot.

And what team are you talking about?

Did you also forget that Miller played during the Jordan Era? So a SG spot was hard to get on the east coast. And who replaced Jordan on the dream team 2? Miller.

For you to say Miller isn't in the same league as Miller is outright disrespectful. Give Miller the 2011 Miami heat roster without Wade and I doubt they would have lost.

And to be able to extend a series against one of the greatest teams and players in Jordan and the bulls to 7 seven games is a pretty good achievement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWNuB6zHAJ0 Miller had the same killer instinct Jordan had. He would do whatever it took to win. That's the kind of guy I would want on my team

Oh and I didn't know this but the 07 Celtics asked Miller to come out of retirement and join them. He almost did but he didn't have enough time to get back in shape. Had they given him 2 months notice instead of 2 weeks he might have gotten a ring that year with the Celtics. Would have been nice to see Ray Allen and Reggie Miller on one team

JNoel
09-04-2012, 09:39 PM
Ray is the 3 pointer king, But Reggie's clutch gene boosts him over Allen for now.

AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 09:39 PM
Better perimeter defenders? Twig boy? Based on what?

Jordan Hated Miller. Part of that must have been his style of play but I'm pretty sure he had to play some sort of defense in order to make Jordan mad enough to want to start a fist fight with him.

Longhornfan1234
09-04-2012, 09:45 PM
Miller is clearly better than Wade.


MJ

Kobe

West

Drexler

AI

Gervin

Miller

Wade

Allen


Miller is the 7th best SG of all-time.

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 09:46 PM
I loved Reggie back in the day, but he had major holes in his game on both ends of the floor. He often had trouble getting his own shot off, and often had plays ran for him that involved double and triple screens. He had a couple of amazing playoff series, and obviously was clutch; but I cannot see him being ranked ahead of DWade. He is in the top ten, but definitely not top 5.

How can anyone hold it against Reggie that his team actually ran PLAYS to get good shots, rather than running extremely low percentage iso off the elbow? 90's basketball was all about defense and offensive execution: if all you did was iso 20ft out, the defense would eat you alive.

And he was a good defender. Not the most athletic, but played extremely smart. He would sit back on his haunches spaced far enough out to stay in front of dribble penetration, and if the ballhandler pulled up for a jumper he used his length to get a hand in his face. Almost literally. Reg would thread his hand between the shooter's arms and almost touch the guy's nose, without fouling. He knew his chances of blocking a shot without fouling were very slim, and that what would bother a shooter most would be to block his line of sight.

Chronz
09-04-2012, 09:47 PM
Well let me ask you this. Your team is down 1 or 2 points. you only have time to run 1 play out of a time out(meaning the other team has the time to set their defense around the paint.). would you rather have D-Wade taking the shot? Or Reggie Miller? I personally would prefer having Miller take that shot.
Prolly Miller, however if you change that to you have 1 game to win and need a star to come up big for the entire game, its Wade.



And what team are you talking about?
The Pacers that pushed MJ to7 games and was able to suppress his scoring.


Did you also forget that Miller played during the Jordan Era? So a SG spot was hard to get on the east coast. And who replaced Jordan on the dream team 2? Miller.
There is no SG spot, there is simply a GUARD spot. And MJ was chosen by the fans. What about the coaches decision and the reserve spot that was left. Miller wasnt being passed up by MJ, he was being passed up by some really ordinary players.


For you to say Miller isn't in the same league as Miller is outright disrespectful. Give Miller the 2011 Miami heat roster without Wade and I doubt they would have lost.

Thats kind of hard to prove but lets just focus on what they did accomplish and how they were treated in their prime. Wade is a lock for an All-Star game and a multiple All-NBA performer, Reggie was lucky to even sniff that.



And to be able to extend a series against one of the greatest teams and players in Jordan and the bulls to 7 seven games is a pretty good achievement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWNuB6zHAJ0 Miller had the same killer instinct Jordan had. He would do whatever it took to win. That's the kind of guy I would want on my team
If Reggie was a true star, the Pacers would have won.


Oh and I didn't know this but the 07 Celtics asked Miller to come out of retirement and join them. He almost did but he didn't have enough time to get back in shape. Had they given him 2 months notice instead of 2 weeks he might have gotten a ring that year with the Celtics. Would have been nice to see Ray Allen and Reggie Miller on one team
Thats not what happened, they offered him a spot all year and were willing to wait. He simply didnt want to chase a ring, which is fine.

AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 09:50 PM
Ray is the 3 pointer king, But Reggie's clutch gene boosts him over Allen for now.

:clap:. agreed. However if Miller kept going i think he would still be king. Their 3PT% for their careers is very close. However, Miller inches out Allen in FG%.

b@llhog24
09-04-2012, 09:51 PM
LOL hes not even in Wade's league, not in Drexler's league, definitely not in West's league. There are a **** load of SG's I would take before Reggie. Your talking about a guy who wasnt even a lock for the All-Star game in his prime. A guy who had the team to win a chip but lacked the star to go all the way.

+1


Better perimeter defenders? Twig boy? Based on what?

:laugh:

Chronz
09-04-2012, 09:52 PM
How can anyone hold it against Reggie that his team actually ran PLAYS to get good shots, rather than running extremely low percentage iso off the elbow?
Because the entire team had to work to get him open and it limited his usage. Why else would the most efficient player of his generation take so few shots?


90's basketball was all about defense and offensive execution: if all you did was iso 20ft out, the defense would eat you alive.

Not according to Stu Jackson, the reason zones were implimented was because the game had become stagnant and too many teams were isolating and pounding the ball. Zones were suppose to promote ball movement and increase 3pt shooting. Then defenses got too good at loading up so HC was revised to open up the game again.


And he was a good defender. Not the most athletic, but played extremely smart. He would sit back on his haunches spaced far enough out to stay in front of dribble penetration, and if the ballhandler pulled up for a jumper he used his length to get a hand in his face. Almost literally. Reg would thread his hand between the shooter's arms and almost touch the guy's nose, without fouling. He knew his chances of blocking a shot without fouling were very slim, and that what would bother a shooter most would be to block his line of sight.
Can you recite his greatest defensive game? I recall MJ watching him on tape and calling him a joke. Whereas a guy like Mitch Richmond had MJ's respect

Chronz
09-04-2012, 09:55 PM
Jordan Hated Miller. Part of that must have been his style of play but I'm pretty sure he had to play some sort of defense in order to make Jordan mad enough to want to start a fist fight with him.
Who knows why MJ hated him but are you suggesting that its more telling of your ability for MJ to hate you than show respect? MJ hated Reggie but respected Mitch Richmond. He gave him credit for being one of the toughest players to match up against, he showed no such devotion to Reggie.

MrfadeawayJB
09-04-2012, 10:05 PM
I know Allen has more threes than reggie but i still regard Reggie as the best clutch shooter of all time. He is my favorite player ever, and gives me hope (i'm skinny too lol)

JNoel
09-04-2012, 10:05 PM
Miller is clearly better than Wade.


MJ

Kobe

West

Drexler

AI

Gervin

Miller

Wade

Allen


Miller is the 7th best SG of all-time.

Wade is the best SG in today's game,quote it

GoPacers33
09-04-2012, 10:06 PM
3rd best SG, my childhood hero, greatest Pacer ever

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 10:15 PM
Because the entire team had to work to get him open and it limited his usage. Why else would the most efficient player of his generation take so few shots?


Not according to Stu Jackson, the reason zones were implimented was because the game had become stagnant and too many teams were isolating and pounding the ball. Zones were suppose to promote ball movement and increase 3pt shooting. Then defenses got too good at loading up so HC was revised to open up the game again.


Can you recite his greatest defensive game? I recall MJ watching him on tape and calling him a joke. Whereas a guy like Mitch Richmond had MJ's respect

Zones were not implemented to prevent wing iso 20ft from the basket. Zone was put in to prevent post up players from dominating the game any longer, specifically Shaq. It's a generally held belief that big men aren't as marketable as perimeter players, and the NBA wanted to groom the next MJ. Between that and the change in handchecking rules, they're trying to prevent another Robinson/Ewing/Hakeem/Shaq era. Post up is not iso (unless you're Zach Randolph), it's inside-out.

The Pacers were a defense first team, and in Miller's prime had two of the starters who wouldn't shoot to save their lives. The idea was to use the clock all the way through, with ball movement and screens to distort the defense and open up a gap for the best shot available. Attacking a set defense iso off the wing with HANDCHECKING in effect was suicide.

I said Miller was a good defender, not great. His job was not to shut guys down, that was for Derrick McKey on the perimeter and Dale Davis in the post. But he was capable.

Let's not forget that a flagrant 2 today was a "good, hard playoff foul" in the 90's. If a player got into the lane for a layup, you knocked his ***** out of the air and tried to give him a concussion. Elbows to the throat and ribs were no-calls. Defense today is a joke, comparatively.

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 10:21 PM
Who knows why MJ hated him but are you suggesting that its more telling of your ability for MJ to hate you than show respect? MJ hated Reggie but respected Mitch Richmond. He gave him credit for being one of the toughest players to match up against, he showed no such devotion to Reggie.

If I'm not mistaken, when Jordan retired the first time he said Reggie was now the best SG in the game.

No idea if this is an accurate quote, but "Is he one of the greatest shooting guards the game has ever seen? Ask Jordan or Kobe, who both said Reggie was the toughest player they ever had to defend and the one person that could get into their heads."

"Former teammate and now Golden State Warriors head coach Mark Jackson seems to think so as well. Jackson said, “When you take Michael Jordan and you take Kobe Bryant out of the discussion, he’s as good as any two-guard that has ever played the game.” "

Chronz
09-04-2012, 10:23 PM
The following players beat Reggie out for an All-NBA spot

(Early in his career): Dale Ellis
(during his prime): Drazen Petrovic, Joe Dumars, Mark Price, Latrell Sprewell, Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Kevin Johnson, Eddie Jones,
(towards the end of his career) Ray Allen

On top of those players here are some of the few who beat him for simple All-Star selections: Michael Adams, Kenny Anderson, Glen Rice, Allan Houston, Stackhouse


Those are some quality players and Im not going to name clearly superior guards but it wasnt just MJ who was keeping him out of prestigious selections.

I wont mention BJ Armstrong beating him for the All-Star spot because the fans were morons on that one. Still it kind of shows you how little people thought of Reggie as an elite player. Hes remembered mostly for his memorable shots (with people forgetting the choke jobs) and for his longevity. Thats the best argument for Reggie, that and his absurd efficiency, but a guy like Wade was definitely the better player in his prime, he would have never gotten passed up by guys like those I listed.



You can definitely argue he was underrated though so all this might be a moot point, my only question is why was he so forgettable during his prime and at what point did we decide he was a legendary player?

AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 10:26 PM
Who knows why MJ hated him but are you suggesting that its more telling of your ability for MJ to hate you than show respect? MJ hated Reggie but respected Mitch Richmond. He gave him credit for being one of the toughest players to match up against, he showed no such devotion to Reggie.

MJ hated Isiah Thomas. Was he not a good player? I'm just saying. There's many guys that say that Miller was a great competitor. The Bulls were the team to beat lets not forget that. Miller like Jordan had a way to get into your head. They outsmarted you on the court and to make matters worse they got in your head and took you out of your game. Your right he wasn't a Star in today's sense of the word, But he was the star of that Pacers team. He is the sole reason the Knicks Pacers rivalry came to be. He probably would have been a bigger threat in his prime if the Hand checking was out like it is today.

And by your "If he was a star he would have won that series" Lebron and wade were unable to win a series against a non #1 seed team. Does that make them any less talented or stars? No it just means they played a better TEAM. And i think that if Miller had a 27 year old Lebron in his prime or near his prime like wade had, Those Pacer teams would have made it farther.
And I'm not a Wade hater, in fact he was one of my favorite players until this season. I even thought he was better than a Lebron at last year, might not have been true though. I lost a lot of respect for him this Post-season http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWZzngL3zXs

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 10:29 PM
The following players beat Reggie out for an All-NBA spot

(Early in his career): Dale Ellis
(during his prime): Drazen Petrovic, Joe Dumars, Mark Price, Latrell Sprewell, Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Kevin Johnson, Eddie Jones,
(towards the end of his career) Ray Allen

On top of those players here are some of the few who beat him for simple All-Star selections: Michael Adams, Kenny Anderson, Glen Rice, Allan Houston, Stackhouse


Those are some quality players and Im not going to name clearly superior guards but it wasnt just MJ who was keeping him out of prestigious selections.

I wont mention BJ Armstrong beating him for the All-Star spot because the fans were morons on that one. Still it kind of shows you how little people thought of Reggie as an elite player. Hes remembered mostly for his memorable shots (with people forgetting the choke jobs) and for his longevity. Thats the best argument for Reggie, that and his absurd efficiency, but a guy like Wade was definitely the better player in his prime, he would have never gotten passed up by guys like those I listed.



You can definitely argue he was underrated though so all this might be a moot point, my only question is why was he so forgettable during his prime and at what point did we decide he was a legendary player?

Reggie Miller was hated by fanbases, players, and coaches around the league. For his sniping with the ball and with his mouth. No one was going to vote him into the All-star game if they could help it. He was the villain 41 nights out of the year, plus playoffs. Especially the playoffs.

And all of the guys you mentioned all had great individual seasons, but not but their careers are not anywhere near the level of Reggie's.

AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 10:30 PM
I'm Sorry but Drazen Petrovich was one of the greatest shooters of all time. Even the Dream team couldn't shut him down

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 10:34 PM
MJ didn't respect Miller?
From 1994:
"Reggie Miller has been called, notably by Pacers President Donnie Walsh, the best shooting guard in the National Basketball Association. But Miller hasn't been called that by Reggie Miller. "I feel there are other guys better," says Miller. "Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, they're great players. And Joe Dumars. I'd say he's the best. There are so many good two guards out there that keep me going. "And the threat of Michael Jordan coming back," says Miller, who recently was counseled by Jordan on how to improve his play."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/keyword/shooting-guard/featured/4

Chronz
09-04-2012, 10:37 PM
Zones were not implemented to prevent wing iso 20ft from the basket. Zone was put in to prevent post up players from dominating the game any longer, specifically Shaq. It's a generally held belief that big men aren't as marketable as perimeter players, and the NBA wanted to groom the next MJ. Between that and the change in handchecking rules, they're trying to prevent another Robinson/Ewing/Hakeem/Shaq era. Post up is not iso (unless you're Zach Randolph), it's inside-out.
According to Stu:
With isolation basketball, a lot of our teams began standing around. There is little player movement, there is little ball movement, and there is a decreasing amount of fastbreak opportunities. These developments began with the misuse of the illegal defense guidelines and therefore they needed to be eliminated. By eliminating them, our desired result is to get a game that once again is based on passing, cutting, player movement, and ball movement. A game that hopefully produces fastbreak opportunities because that is the way our game should be played.

Tmac complained about zones taking away from individual greatness.


The Pacers were a defense first team, and in Miller's prime had two of the starters who wouldn't shoot to save their lives. The idea was to use the clock all the way through, with ball movement and screens to distort the defense and open up a gap for the best shot available. Attacking a set defense iso off the wing with HANDCHECKING in effect was suicide.
I dont see it. Particularly in an era without zones.


I said Miller was a good defender, not great. His job was not to shut guys down, that was for Derrick McKey on the perimeter and Dale Davis in the post. But he was capable.
Agree to disagree.


Let's not forget that a flagrant 2 today was a "good, hard playoff foul" in the 90's. If a player got into the lane for a layup, you knocked his ***** out of the air and tried to give him a concussion. Elbows to the throat and ribs were no-calls. Defense today is a joke, comparatively.
I'll try to find the quote from coaches who have played through both eras but Ive heard the opposite, Ive heard them claim how much more complex defenses have gotten because of zones, and how superior today's athletes are in terms of length and covering ground. All that said, I think we are both exaggerating, I dont see a significant difference.

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 10:41 PM
How about from Larry Brown then?

Reggie Miller called you a perfectionist in an imperfect sport. Your memories of coaching Reggie Miller? He was the greatest clutch shooter I've ever been around, and one of the greatest competitors I've ever been around. It was no fluke that he lasted as long as he did with one franchise because he prepared, he practiced hard, he respected his teammates. ... I thought sometimes he was too unselfish almost to a point where he was hurting at times. But when I look back on it, I admire that trait because the way he played and conducted himself, he wanted to make his teammates feel that he believed in them and trusted them. He was amazing. Even when he retired, I think he could have played another five years. His body. ... people used to say he was thin and weak, not tough. He was strong and tough and competitive and he was a much better defender than most people imagined. http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/04/18/larry-brown/

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 10:47 PM
According to Stu:
With isolation basketball, a lot of our teams began standing around. There is little player movement, there is little ball movement, and there is a decreasing amount of fastbreak opportunities. These developments began with the misuse of the illegal defense guidelines and therefore they needed to be eliminated. By eliminating them, our desired result is to get a game that once again is based on passing, cutting, player movement, and ball movement. A game that hopefully produces fastbreak opportunities because that is the way our game should be played.

Tmac complained about zones taking away from individual greatness.


I dont see it. Particularly in an era without zones.


Agree to disagree.


I'll try to find the quote from coaches who have played through both eras but Ive heard the opposite, Ive heard them claim how much more complex defenses have gotten because of zones, and how superior today's athletes are in terms of length and covering ground. All that said, I think we are both exaggerating, I dont see a significant difference.

You don't see a significant difference between defense today and 20 years ago? Handchecking makes all the difference in the world. You used to be able to push perimeter players off their line of attack like you still do in the post.


But there’s another point Shaq hasn’t addressed.

It’s not romantic to talk about – especially for Magic fans – but big men simply can’t affect the game the way they could during Shaq’s prime. In 2004, the NBA altered its rules to no longer allow hand-checking beyond the free-throw line, increasing the effectiveness of quick ball-handlers. The rule change made it almost impossible to stay in front of agile guys like Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo and LeBron James.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-09-13/sports/os-shaq-criticism-dwight-howard-orlando-magic-20110913_1_dwight-howard-magic-fans-shaquille-o-neal

R. Johnson#3
09-04-2012, 10:48 PM
I can safely say I'd have the ball in Reggie's hand over anybody else's with the game on the line.

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 10:49 PM
"The history book inspires them to be some of the best," said Jordan. "Rules have changed to help them. I could have averaged 50 points today!"

Joe Johnson from the Atlanta Hawks was asked about the handchecking rule during the summer of 2010: "It benefits me," said Joe Johnson, one of three players (Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford are the others) on the Hawks' roster who have averaged 20 or more points in a season. "It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. "If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different," Johnson said. "If they couldn't hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980s and 1990s. Can you imagine what [Michael] Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn't hand check."

During a 2007 L.A. Lakers pre-season broadcast, Phil Jackson was asked how he thought Michael Jordan would perform today, Phil said: "Michael would average 45 with these rules."

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown, who also coached the 2004 Pistons defense... "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

Question for Clyde Drexler:
In the current league where there is no hand checking and no ruff play how much better would your numbers be?

Clyde Drexler: Oh, tremendously better, from shooting percentage to points per game everything would be up, and our old teams would score a lot more points, and that is saying something because we could score a lot back then. I do think there should be an asterisk next to some of these scoring leaders, because it is much different trying to score with a forearm in your face. It is harder to score with that resistance. You had to turn your back on guys defending you back in the day with all the hand checking that was going on. For guys who penetrate these days, it's hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do.

"The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas .... [have] all been taken away from the game. If Kobe could get 81, I think Michael could get 100 in today's game." - Scottie Pippen January 2006

Craig Hodges is the Lakers shooting coach, get a look at what he said:
Q: If you could take one player in their prime, would you take Michael Jordan or Kobe?

A: M.J., all day. There's no comparison. M.J. could score 100 points in this era. You can't hand-check now. Imagine that trying to guard M.J. It would be crazy.

Hall of Famer Rick Barry, a keen observer of the game, said he would love to see players of the past getting to attack the basket under the new officiating. "They'd score a lot more," he said.

Tex Winter said: "Players today can get to the basket individually much easier."

Asked if he could defend Jordan under today's interpretation of the rules, Joe Dumars first laughed, "It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game's being called right now."

Question for Dominique Wilkins: Seeing that you played in one of the greatest eras in NBA history, what has changed the most in the NBA since your days as a player?

Dominique Wilkins: "The power forward position had the license to kick your butt and the game was very physical. I think the physical aspect of the game, some of it has been taken away with the rule changes."

Do you think you could take them?

Dominique Wilkins: "I don't believe in comparisons, but I look at the era I played in. Like I said, when you have to play against a great player every night, that defines who you are if you can compete on that same level night in and night out. That tells you where your place is in the whole, I would say, history of the game. You put yourself in a very high spot."


Dominique Wilkins: "When you can compete on that level against the greatest players every single night, and when you can play just as good or better, that really defines who you are as a player. So if you're asking me what would I have done [today], well, put it this way, if you couldn't touch me [because of the rule changes], instead of averaging 25 or 30 [points], I'd probably average 40."

Tim Grover, who has trained Kobe, Lebron, and Jordan, was asked who would win a 1-on-1 battle of Jordan vs. either of the other two:
Tim Grover: "Oh, Michael. No question. From a physical and mental standpoint, he's the best I've ever seen. If he were playing now, with the way the refs call everything, and with all the padding these guys wear, he'd average 40 or 50 a night if he wanted."

Chronz
09-04-2012, 10:57 PM
If I'm not mistaken, when Jordan retired the first time he said Reggie was now the best SG in the game.
Perhaps he gained a sense of admiration for Reggie that he didnt have in his playing days. All I know is that he repeatedly praised Mitch whenever they matched up.


No idea if this is an accurate quote, but "Is he one of the greatest shooting guards the game has ever seen? Ask Jordan or Kobe, who both said Reggie was the toughest player they ever had to defend and the one person that could get into their heads."
KB says it here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mKCxkJTFrU

Both MJ and Kobe main weakness and strengths as defenders were their propensity to provide help, it was mostly a benefit to the defense, in the book "Jordan: The Man, His Words, His Life", Phil says this mindset left MJ vulnerable to guys like Miller-Ellis who would bomb from deep.

IMO however, MJ's toughest cover was Penny. He had the post game to abuse both Pippen and MJ.



"Former teammate and now Golden State Warriors head coach Mark Jackson seems to think so as well. Jackson said, “When you take Michael Jordan and you take Kobe Bryant out of the discussion, he’s as good as any two-guard that has ever played the game.” "

Jackson is biased and has said plenty of idiotic things in the past (Kobe surpassing MJ for example). Reggie is not better than West, Gervin or Wade.

Chronz
09-04-2012, 10:58 PM
I'm Sorry but Drazen Petrovich was one of the greatest shooters of all time. Even the Dream team couldn't shut him down

So you actually think Drazen at his best is better than Wade? I suppose you feel that way about guys like Sprewell too.

Chronz
09-04-2012, 11:00 PM
You don't see a significant difference between defense today and 20 years ago? Handchecking makes all the difference in the world. You used to be able to push perimeter players off their line of attack like you still do in the post.
Hand checking has been revised often but it was always a response to improving defenses. To me the greatest defensive era will always be the period in between zone legalization and the latest Handchecking era. I disagree with it making all the difference in the world, to me having a wall behind you as a defender is just as influential as being able to touch a defender 1 on 1.

JasonJohnHorn
09-04-2012, 11:01 PM
Reggie Miller was one of the most clutch shooters... so that's got to count for something, but that said, he didn't have the all-around game some other guys had, nor was he as big a scorer as some others. Jordan. Kobe. West. Gervin. Wade. Those guys would all rank above Miller for me because of their all around games or ability to just score a lot of points in a lot of different ways. I'd say Miller is in my top ten SGs of all time for sure, but likely closer to 10 than to 5. I'd have to really sit back and think about it though. I may put Joe Dumars ahead of Miller because of his defence and rings. Dumars is generally very underrated as far as great SGs go. I mean, the guy met up with Jordan four times in the playoffs and won three of those times. Who else has that kind of track record against the greatest shooting guard of all time?

Miller... top ten for sure. Not top 5.

Chronz
09-04-2012, 11:03 PM
MJ hated Isiah Thomas. Was he not a good player? I'm just saying. There's many guys that say that Miller was a great competitor. The Bulls were the team to beat lets not forget that. Miller like Jordan had a way to get into your head. They outsmarted you on the court and to make matters worse they got in your head and took you out of your game. Your right he wasn't a Star in today's sense of the word, But he was the star of that Pacers team. He is the sole reason the Knicks Pacers rivalry came to be. He probably would have been a bigger threat in his prime if the Hand checking was out like it is today.
Doubtful, his game wasnt predicated on elusive ball handling and blazing quickness, it was based on spatial recognition off the ball. And handchecking rules were basically revised for ball handlers, not off the ball play.

Lakersfan2483
09-04-2012, 11:03 PM
He ranks behind Jordan, Kobe, J. West, Wade, Drexler and Allen Iverson.

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 11:09 PM
Doc Rivers, by way of David Aldridge:

"The first year, they took my hand check away," Rivers recalled. "The next year, they took our forearm away. And then, I retired. I was done. I was like, 'I've got to move my feet? I quit. This is no fun anymore.'"

For 13 seasons, Rivers made a very good living in the NBA as one of the league's best on-ball defenders. Tall (6-foot-4) and strong, able to use his hands to steer opponents away from the basket, able to clip guards moving without the ball from their desired routes around the court. But the style that helped his Hawks teams get to the Playoffs and that put his 1994 New York Knicks team in the Finals is now a relic, consigned to the basement in Pat Riley's head.

You still have to play defense to win NBA championships. But now, you have to do it without fouling.

With the Playoffs underway, the teams that can slow their opponents down without putting them on the free throw line have a decided advantage. But that's much harder than in Rivers' day, when the Knicks would establish how the game would be called in the first five minutes by being as physical as possible, daring referees to call every bump and hold. Most times, the refs would ultimately let a lot of contact go, which is precisely what Riley wanted.

But the league has gradually legislated that kind of defense out of the game.

Since 1990, the NBA has instituted a series of rules changes to increase the offensive player's flow and make physical play costly. First came increased penalties for flagrant fouls (1990) and fighting (1993), the implementation of the "five points" rule that called for automatic suspensions of players who amassed a certain number of flagrants (1993). Hand checking was eliminated in 1994. Using the forearm to defend players facing the basket went away in 1997.

In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from "re-routing" players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open. Nor were defenders able any more to grab or impede offensive players setting screens. In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help.

The rules changes did what they were supposed to do -- open up the game. Scoring average has increased from an average 95.6 points per game in the 1997-98 season to this year's 100 per game. Overall field goal percentage has increased from 45.0 percent in '97-'98 to 45.9 percent this season. Three-point percentage has gone up, from .346 11 years ago to .367 this season. And fouls have gone down, from a league average of 1,837 fouls in 1997 to 1,726 this season. The statistical-based Basketball Prospectus wrote at the beginning of this season that the game's pace -- defined as possessions per game -- had increased from its nadir during the lockout season of 1999 (around 88 possessions per game) to around 91 per game in the 2007-08 season.

Free-flowing offense is now the norm, with players able to go almost unencumbered anywhere on the court. As such, the game's most dominant individual players and those that are just good at drawing contact have even more of a chance to get to the foul line. So stars like Dwight Howard (the league leader in free throw attempts this season with 849), Dwyane Wade (second, 771) and LeBron James (third, 762) can have an even more outsized impact on games.

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown. "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/

toovey107
09-04-2012, 11:09 PM
Isiah Thomas is one of the most overrated players ever, but I really don't want to beat that drum again.

Chronz
09-04-2012, 11:13 PM
Reggie Miller was hated by fanbases, players, and coaches around the league. For his sniping with the ball and with his mouth. No one was going to vote him into the All-star game if they could help it. He was the villain 41 nights out of the year, plus playoffs. Especially the playoffs.

And all of the guys you mentioned all had great individual seasons, but not but their careers are not anywhere near the level of Reggie's.

The point remains, it wasnt MJ that was keeping him out. And I highly doubt Wade gets overlooked by those players, this was a response to Almost-There who made the direct comparison.

Chronz
09-04-2012, 11:14 PM
How about from Larry Brown then?

On that tangent, wasnt Brown the guy who told Reggie he would have to sacrifice, why would he feel he was too unselfish??

Chronz
09-04-2012, 11:23 PM
Doc Rivers, by way of David Aldridge:

All rule changes were made in response to increasing defensive effectiveness(decreased offensive efficiency), that what happens as teams adapt. Riley basically copied Detroits tactics and it led to some ugly ball. Derek Harper was the hand checking king who also lost some of his effectiveness as a result of the 95 revision.

It helped at first but defenses adapted and again it was Riley vs JVG who led the way with some of the ugliest basketball (according to diminishing viewers). The NBA makes rule changes again over the years.

The rule changes have put players who can move their feet and cover ground with length at a premium.

In the 2000 era defense got to its stingiest levels, scoring had become anemic so they opened up the game and returned efficient play back to the levels they were in the early days. So I dont see this drastic difference.

Chronz
09-04-2012, 11:23 PM
Isiah Thomas is one of the most overrated players ever, but I really don't want to beat that drum again.

Agreed but what does he have to do with this?

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 11:36 PM
So to summarize the ridiculous number of quotes I just posted:
1) Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant called Miller the toughest player they ever had to guard
2) Michael Jordan called Miller the best SG in the league after he retired (from my recollection)
3) Larry Brown said Miller was one of the fiercest competitors, and was a vastly underrated defender
4) Mark Jackson said Miller was the up there with the best after MJ and Kobe

On handchecking:
1) Larry Brown said you can’t touch guys now, and MJ would average 50 a game.
2) Joe Johnson said lack of handchecking gives him a decided advantage
3) Phil Jackson said MJ would average 45 with these rules
4) Clyde Drexler said that there should be an asterisk for scoring leaders now that there’s no handchecking, because it was so much harder to score before.
5) Craig Hodges (lakers shooting coach) said MJ could score 100 in today’s game.
6) Rick Barry said that former players would have scored a lot more without handchecking
7) Tex Winters, legendary coach, said players can get to the basket much easier now.
8) Joe Dumars said it would be impossible to guard MJ with today’s rules
9) Dominique Wilkins said he would average 40 per game without handchecking rules
10) Tim Grover, legendary trainer, said that MJ could average 40 to 50 a night now with rules changes and padding.
11) David Aldridge said that the rule changes opened up the offense and made it harder to impede or reroute perimeter players
12) David Aldridge also said that rule changes put guys who get foul calls on the line a lot more, giving them “an even more outsized impact on games”.

AlmostThere
09-04-2012, 11:36 PM
Doubtful, his game wasnt predicated on elusive ball handling and blazing quickness, it was based on spatial recognition off the ball. And handchecking rules were basically revised for ball handlers, not off the ball play.

Others defense would suffer though. And he was a smart player. He could lead players in the direction the of the help defense. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPz-G9bGuZk

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 11:39 PM
Still trying to find the quote where Shaq said that handchecking rules and zone were changes specifically because of him, but he said it.

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by Chronz
Doubtful, his game wasnt predicated on elusive ball handling and blazing quickness, it was based on spatial recognition off the ball. And handchecking rules were basically revised for ball handlers, not off the ball play.

Per David Aldridge:
In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from "re-routing" players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open. Nor were defenders able any more to grab or impede offensive players setting screens. In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help.

AlmostThere
09-05-2012, 12:28 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career.html
just take a look at the link. He has the 2nd best Carrer Offensive rating behind Chris Paul and above Magic Johnson. Wade is 109.

TheLegend
09-05-2012, 01:28 AM
thats why hes 3rd all time? are u serious? lebron rightfully won thoughs mvp's because his team was better



wades legacy will never be greater than millers.

i always tell people lebron and wade teaming up didnt hurt lebrons legacy, it hurt wades. i agree wade had the potential to be a top sg but now he never will.

This sounds a little silly to me when Miller never won a championship and Wade has two and possible more when its all set and done.

Evolution23
09-05-2012, 01:40 AM
Reggie Miller ranks way above Wade. That's all I know.

Evolution23
09-05-2012, 01:40 AM
This sounds a little silly to me when Miller never won a championship and Wade has two and possible more when its all set and done.

You sound silly making that argument.

ombada
09-05-2012, 02:24 AM
You sound silly making that argument.

+1

Baskeball is a team game, championships are a team accomplishment.

On topic, Miller is 3rd.

AlmostThere
09-05-2012, 02:35 AM
This sounds a little silly to me when Miller never won a championship and Wade has two and possible more when its all set and done.

If you take into consideration that he was playing in the same conference as the Bulls and he had to compete against them for rings then if you put wade in millers spot. No chance he even get close to getting a ring. Then if you consider Miller's Offensive rating then Miller is Miles above Wade

Hawkeye15
09-05-2012, 02:56 AM
outside the top 5 SG's ever, easy.

AlmostThere
09-05-2012, 03:19 AM
outside the top 5 SG's ever, easy.

Who would be your top 5? The poll on NBA.com has 32% voting him at 3 and 53% 4~8.

amos1er
09-05-2012, 04:12 AM
Lets be serious guys. As much as I do think that Wade is overrated...Miller is not the better sg.

IndyHeatjman
09-05-2012, 07:16 AM
I'd rank reggie probably around 9th or 10th all time.
1st Jordan
2nd Kobe
3rd Jerry West
4th "Iceman" George Gervin
5th Clyde "The Glide" Drexler
6th Dwayne "Flash" Wade
7th Allen "AI" Iverson
8th "Pistol Pete" Maravich
9th Reggie Miller
10th Ray Allen

lookie8
09-05-2012, 01:34 PM
I'd rank reggie probably around 9th or 10th all time.
1st Jordan
2nd Kobe
3rd Jerry West
4th "Iceman" George Gervin
5th Clyde "The Glide" Drexler
6th Dwayne "Flash" Wade
7th Allen "AI" Iverson
8th "Pistol Pete" Maravich
9th Reggie Miller
10th Ray Allen

Pete Maravich? That's quite a stretch.

JiffyMix88
09-05-2012, 02:24 PM
Prolly Miller, however if you change that to you have 1 game to win and need a star to come up big for the entire game, its Wade.



The Pacers that pushed MJ to7 games and was able to suppress his scoring.


There is no SG spot, there is simply a GUARD spot. And MJ was chosen by the fans. What about the coaches decision and the reserve spot that was left. Miller wasnt being passed up by MJ, he was being passed up by some really ordinary players.


Thats kind of hard to prove but lets just focus on what they did accomplish and how they were treated in their prime. Wade is a lock for an All-Star game and a multiple All-NBA performer, Reggie was lucky to even sniff that.



If Reggie was a true star, the Pacers would have won.
Thats not what happened, they offered him a spot all year and were willing to wait. He simply didnt want to chase a ring, which is fine.

so if lebron was a true star he would of won some titles in cleveland...right? or i guess cp3 isnt a true star either, or derrick rose, or dwight howard.....:eyebrow:

Stinkyoutsider
09-05-2012, 02:33 PM
I think Miller is a great player, probably top 10 among all SGs? I remember when him and Spike Lee used to get into it all the time and Reggie made the choke gesture towards him. Classic lol!

Miller was a good defender, could do some ball handling, and we all know what kind of shooter he was...

JollyRanch
09-05-2012, 02:51 PM
Reggie Miller was a great shooter (arguably the greatest) but he was not a great shooting guard.

Jordan
Kobe
West
Gervin

then you start putting everyone else somewhere

naps
09-05-2012, 03:04 PM
Sorry to say it but Miller's sheer clutchness ranks him over Wade easily. And for now Kobe's longevity and ability to still rank among to top scorers at the age of 33 makes me rank him over Wade for now. And Wade was unable to claim a title as the man with lebron. If miller had lebron. LOL wow. talk about open shots all day.

How old are you? Wade is one of the greatest finals performers of all time. He won as the man like only few did.

seikou8
09-05-2012, 03:06 PM
What has Kobe done besides that rape case? Nothing that has impressed me.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

naps
09-05-2012, 03:10 PM
wades legacy will never be greater than millers.

i always tell people lebron and wade teaming up didnt hurt lebrons legacy, it hurt wades. i agree wade had the potential to be a top sg but now he never will.

LMFAO! How's is Miller's legacy better than Wade's? Why don't you demonstrate something instead of putting worthless statements. It's a landslide in everything but shooting. It's an ultimate insult to Wade. And how's Wade legacy hurt when he's winning more championships? You same people count Kobe has 5 championships, right? But his legacy isn't hurt even though he was riding the greatest center ever. LOL. Pathetic.

naps
09-05-2012, 03:11 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Do you understand sarcasm? Read the post that I quoted.

NoahH
09-05-2012, 03:13 PM
MJ
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
Miller

Mile High Champ
09-05-2012, 03:40 PM
I have argued this way too much before. I have got into it with Chronz a few times. Reggie continues to be underrated by many and he does come in just at number 5 on my own list at SG. I don't understand how people can say Allen was better than Reggie. Reggie was always the main option on all his teams and had a great deal of success both leading his team to multiple conference finals appearances and a finals. Ray Allen never did this. He was always the 2nd option (yes even on the bucks when they had Glen Robinson). Allen has had the benefit of being 2nd or 3rd option on teams where he did particularly well. I just don't have anywhere near the respect for Allen that I do Reggie.

Chronz
09-05-2012, 04:01 PM
so if lebron was a true star he would of won some titles in cleveland...right? or i guess cp3 isnt a true star either, or derrick rose, or dwight howard.....:eyebrow:

Bron made the Cavs into the least talented 66 win team in NBA history so no.

Kashmir13579
09-05-2012, 05:25 PM
top 5 scorer of all time.

Kashmir13579
09-05-2012, 05:27 PM
outside the top 5 SG's ever, easy.

i wouldn't say, "easy".. You and Chronz have something against this guy and i don't quite understand it. Reggie is possibly the single greatest shooter and one of the greatest scorers this game has ever seen.

Kashmir13579
09-05-2012, 05:32 PM
career milestones, league-wide:

15th alltime in WSs
7th alltime in offensive WSs
2nd alltime in offensive rating
5th alltime in TS%
17th alltime in points scored
39th alltime in steals recorded
9th alltime in FT%
14th alltime in FT attempted
2nd alltime in 3pt FG
44th alltime in 3pt%
32 alltime in FG made
8th alltime in MP


Get off his damn nuts.

AlmostThere
09-05-2012, 06:00 PM
How old are you? Wade is one of the greatest finals performers of all time. He won as the man like only few did.

Yeah and he also set a record for the most FTA in the Finals. If you couldn't touch Jordan because you would get a foul, then you couldn't breath on D-Wade.

Also Miller was never a second option on his contending teams. If he would have been or at least have a better 2nd scoring option, then he would have a few rings. And yes he almost joined the celtics in 07. But he wasn't prepared to play an 82 game season.

LoveMeOrHateMe
09-05-2012, 06:25 PM
Jordan
Kobe
West
Drexler
Miller
Wade

lavilevi23
09-05-2012, 06:51 PM
Jordan
Kobe
West
Drexler
Miller
Wade

:facepalm:

Hawkeye15
09-05-2012, 06:57 PM
Top 10-12 SG or so. I mean, he was as one dimensional as it gets, struggled to make all star teams in his peak, and was simply given extra praise for getting hot in a handful of playoff games. The guy didn't distribute, rebound, defend, or do anything outside shoot the basketball. One of the more overrated players in basketball. Top 10 pure shooter? Yep. Top 3 SG? Oh god no.

lookie8
09-05-2012, 07:41 PM
Top 10-12 SG or so. I mean, he was as one dimensional as it gets, struggled to make all star teams in his peak, and was simply given extra praise for getting hot in a handful of playoff games. The guy didn't distribute, rebound, defend, or do anything outside shoot the basketball. One of the more overrated players in basketball. Top 10 pure shooter? Yep. Top 3 SG? Oh god no.

You really hate Reggie, don't you?

One dimensional? Check out his FT stats. He didn't mind taking his skinny frame to the hole and taking the hit.

Also one of the smartest oncourt NBA players I have ever seen play, and absolutely one of the most clutch NBA players ever.

Chronz
09-05-2012, 09:03 PM
i wouldn't say, "easy".. You and Chronz have something against this guy and i don't quite understand it. Reggie is possibly the single greatest shooter and one of the greatest scorers this game has ever seen.
We can all agree MJ, Kobe, West, Drexler, Wade are the cream of the crop when it comes to SG's, if your hesitant to rate Wade at this moment then you still have to get Reggie past Gervin, AI, Monroe and Sam Jones (to a lesser extent Ray Allen and Tmac). There are alot of all time greats and none of them were ever overlooked as individuals the way Reggie has. Im personally not as impressed by consistent All-Star caliber effort over a dominating sustained peak and gradual decline

StinkEye
09-05-2012, 09:28 PM
I like Mitch Richmond more :shrug:

Hawkeye15
09-05-2012, 09:35 PM
You really hate Reggie, don't you?

Never met him, why would I hate him?


One dimensional? Check out his FT stats. He didn't mind taking his skinny frame to the hole and taking the hit.

Shooter. Your point?


Also one of the smartest oncourt NBA players I have ever seen play, and absolutely one of the most clutch NBA players ever.

The word "clutch" can't be defined, your are more than welcome to do so, its your perception. Didn't defend, pass, create for others, nor did he push the voters over his peak to throw him on all NBA lists and all star teams overwhelmingly. Not sure why my saying I would take 10 SG's ahead of him is hate, but with this site, I have heard that so many times from homers its something that doesn't matter to me.

TheLegend
09-05-2012, 09:35 PM
If you take into consideration that he was playing in the same conference as the Bulls and he had to compete against them for rings then if you put wade in millers spot. No chance he even get close to getting a ring. Then if you consider Miller's Offensive rating then Miller is Miles above Wade

Look, stop the excuses. I know that's typical of people of your age group but the bottom line is Wade has 2 championships. Miller didn't get it done. And I love Reggie Miller, but at the end of the day he didn't win a title. Jordan retired, and the Pacers still came up short and could've won titles at that time. He didn't. Wade won two titles, and one in particular when he took over a series. I have to give him some respect and I'm not a Wade or Heat fan. But he does have two rings.

Personally, I think all this "ranking" and this player is above this player is rather stupid. Is there something in basketball that says Reggie Miller is rated the 6 best SG or player? Or is that something kids make-up in their minds? Wade is a great player. Miller is a great player. They both have their own unique set of skill sets, they are really different players so to even compare them is silly. Basketball is a team sport at the end of the day so to say Wade is over MIller, or Miller is over Wade is like saying "My Fullback is better than your Tight end". I mean, c'mon, who cares. It's a team game. These players don't even share the same skill sets and each play the game in totally different styles. Yet, we got 50 people trying to say "this player is better". :facepalm:

The smart thing would be to compare Wade to a SG with like skill set. Wade vs Drexler. Miller vs Allen. Or Miller vs Jeff Hornacek.

b@llhog24
09-05-2012, 10:46 PM
career milestones, league-wide:

15th alltime in WSs
7th alltime in offensive WSs
2nd alltime in offensive rating
5th alltime in TS%
17th alltime in points scored
39th alltime in steals recorded
9th alltime in FT%
14th alltime in FT attempted
2nd alltime in 3pt FG
44th alltime in 3pt%
32 alltime in FG made
8th alltime in MP


Get off his damn nuts.

Longevity and nobody denies his offensive prowess.

Kashmir13579
09-05-2012, 10:52 PM
We can all agree MJ, Kobe, West, Drexler, Wade are the cream of the crop when it comes to SG's, if your hesitant to rate Wade at this moment then you still have to get Reggie past Gervin, AI, Monroe and Sam Jones (to a lesser extent Ray Allen and Tmac). There are alot of all time greats and none of them were ever overlooked as individuals the way Reggie has. Im personally not as impressed by consistent All-Star caliber effort over a dominating sustained peak and gradual decline

And thats just it.. you act like what he was doing over his 10 year peak isn't all that special.. I see it differently.. Over those 10 years he was the most efficient 20 ppg ever.. At his absolute best, (91-95ish) he is maybe the most efficient shooter of all time.. pound for pound.. That isn't something you just overlook. Putting up Steve Novak type ORTG with an all-star's USG%.

I wasn't around for MJ, West, Drexler, Gervin, and Monroe. I don't have a problem putting Reggie passed AI or T-mac and i love T-Mac.. T-Mac's prime was too short..

If people wanna call him 1 dimensional thats fine by me. All i'm saying is that within the dimensions he operated in, he was the best to ever do it.

Kashmir13579
09-05-2012, 10:55 PM
Hawkeye what do you have against Reggie, bro? Tell me straight out. :laugh2:

lookie8
09-05-2012, 11:00 PM
Never met him, why would I hate him?



Shooter. Your point?



The word "clutch" can't be defined, your are more than welcome to do so, its your perception. Didn't defend, pass, create for others, nor did he push the voters over his peak to throw him on all NBA lists and all star teams overwhelmingly. Not sure why my saying I would take 10 SG's ahead of him is hate, but with this site, I have heard that so many times from homers its something that doesn't matter to me.

Geez Hawkeye, never seen you this bigoted.

Did Reggie bang one or more of your family members?

You are usually much more intelligent in NBA matters.

IndyRealist
09-06-2012, 12:25 AM
Hawkeye what do you have against Reggie, bro? Tell me straight out. :laugh2:

To be fair, if you watched basketball in the 90's and you weren't a Pacers fan, then you pretty much hated Reggie Miller by default. Lakers, Bulls, Celtics, Hawks, Cavs, Magic, and especially Knicks, he stuck it to all of them at one time or another. It's not unreasonable for someone to still be carrying around that resentment.

But's easy to say he wasn't a good defender now, almost 20 years later. But Larry Brown coached him and said he's a good defender. And it's easy to say that he was one dimensional. Because that's all you see in the highlight reels. But he was the vocal, on the court and lockerroom leader in every way imaginable. The entire team took on his underdog personality. And he was one of the best at what he did. He was the archetype of the SG, taken to the extreme.

He played in an era where teams averaged 95ppg, and he had the Pacers over 100 playing a slow pace with 2 starters who didn't shoot the ball. Their ORtg was consistently at the top of the league (which is why it's ridiculous that people say he couldn't get his own shot. He didn't have to, they had the best offense in the league in '98-'99 and '99-'00). When he finally got help in the form of Jalen Rose, they went to the Finals. It's a shame that Jalen decided he was the next Magic Johnson and demanded to play PG, and that Rik Smits' knees and back gave out. Otherwise Reggie might have a ring or two and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

SINCESTARBURY25
09-06-2012, 11:20 AM
Best sniper of all time. Top 2 shooting guards to ever play the game. He's one of my favorite players.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 11:42 AM
Geez Hawkeye, never seen you this bigoted.

Did Reggie bang one or more of your family members?

You are usually much more intelligent in NBA matters.

I think Reggie is incredibly overrated by most. So many get caught up in some of his playoff heroics and look over the fact that he simply didn't do anything but score the basketball at an efficient rate. He barely made all star teams in his peak, and was weak at every portion of the game outside moving without the basketball and scoring. He honestly reminds me of Kevin Martin on steroids. By no means is he as good as some of the other well rounded SG's to come thru the game.

lookie8
09-06-2012, 11:46 AM
I think Reggie is incredibly overrated by most. So many get caught up in some of his playoff heroics and look over the fact that he simply didn't do anything but score the basketball at an efficient rate. He barely made all star teams in his peak, and was weak at every portion of the game outside moving without the basketball and scoring. He honestly reminds me of Kevin Martin on steroids. By no means is he as good as some of the other well rounded SG's to come thru the game.

Again, surprised at your bigotry concerning Reggie.

Makes me respect you and your knowledge of the game less.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 11:52 AM
Again, surprised at your bigotry concerning Reggie.

Makes me respect you and your knowledge of the game less.

Bigotry? Please. I simply don't get a boner over a few game winners, instead looking at a player's entire game.

Could care less.

lookie8
09-06-2012, 12:01 PM
Bigotry? Please. I simply don't get a boner over a few game winners, instead looking at a player's entire game.

Could care less.

The way you go after Reggie, seems you do care, and it seems like something personal.

Chronz
09-06-2012, 12:04 PM
I wasn't around for MJ, West, Drexler, Gervin, and Monroe. I don't have a problem putting Reggie passed AI or T-mac and i love T-Mac.. T-Mac's prime was too short..
Im abit confused here, you had to be around for MJ if you were around for Reggie, no?
Regardless, just going on whatever it is you know about them, where would you rank Reggie?



- Tmac's peak was short but he still had a decent prime run, made more All-NBA Teams, got more MVP love than Reggie, raised the level of play of garbage to a ridiculous degree. That kind of dominance vs Reggie is the ultimate test of Peak vs Longevity and I guess we know where we both stand on this matter. Its kind of like choosing between Bill Walton and say Nate Thurmond.


If people wanna call him 1 dimensional thats fine by me. All i'm saying is that within the dimensions he operated in, he was the best to ever do it.
Thats fine, but you still have to realize that even when doing it he was barely seen as an All-Star, made no impression on MVP voters and was at max All-NBA 3rd team.

Chronz
09-06-2012, 12:07 PM
I think Reggie is incredibly overrated by most. So many get caught up in some of his playoff heroics and look over the fact that he simply didn't do anything but score the basketball at an efficient rate. He barely made all star teams in his peak, and was weak at every portion of the game outside moving without the basketball and scoring. He honestly reminds me of Kevin Martin on steroids. By no means is he as good as some of the other well rounded SG's to come thru the game.

Do you remember Artest's claim of Martin being better than Reggie? Must have been off his meds at the time tho

monzternipz12
09-06-2012, 12:32 PM
If your only knowledge of Reggie miller is based on YouTube videos, stat sheets, or by what others have said, then you have absolutely no right to comment on how great he was.

Like someone said before, if you weren't a pacer fan, then you hated Miller with a passion. And I'm talking about pure hatred! Only the greats develop this kind of hatred from outside fans. Wade should not ever be in the convo of Miller, not yet at least.

We should really post ages from now on. It'd make more sense why someone posts BS.

Chronz
09-06-2012, 12:39 PM
We should really post ages from now on. It'd make more sense why someone posts BS.

What exactly would we be waiting for?

ChicagoJ
09-06-2012, 12:46 PM
I thought reggie was a little overrated when he played, but he was still a great player. The reason why is he was the #1 go to guy for the pacers and he just wasn't that kind of a player all the time. When you looked at Jordan, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, and some others, reggie just wasn't going to do the things other top players could do all the time.

However, he was a pure shooter that could dominate with that, a fierce competitor, and loved to play mind games with both players and fans. He was one of the more memorable players to watch and deserves to be in the hall.

I wonder how good his sister would have been if she played in the nba?

lookie8
09-06-2012, 12:53 PM
I thought reggie was a little overrated when he played, but he was still a great player. The reason why is he was the #1 go to guy for the pacers and he just wasn't that kind of a player all the time. When you looked at Jordan, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, and some others, reggie just wasn't going to do the things other top players could do all the time.

However, he was a pure shooter that could dominate with that, a fierce competitor, and loved to play mind games with both players and fans. He was one of the more memorable players to watch and deserves to be in the hall.

I wonder how good his sister would have been if she played in the nba?

Barkley, Robinson and Ewing are bigmen. Not seeing the comparison

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 01:22 PM
I tell you what was underrated. Miller's picksetters and his point guards elite ability at delivering the ball to his shooter at the right time.

Again, not hating on Reggie, but I don't see much more than Rip Hamilton or Kevin Martin with a killer instinct.

lookie8
09-06-2012, 01:42 PM
I tell you what was underrated. Miller's picksetters and his point guards elite ability at delivering the ball to his shooter at the right time.

Again, not hating on Reggie, but I don't see much more than Rip Hamilton or Kevin Martin with a killer instinct.

Wow, now you are just full of crap.

Always knew that's what all your statistics were based on.

Chronz
09-06-2012, 01:49 PM
Wow, now you are just full of crap.

Always knew that's what all your statistics were based on.

He didnt mention any statistics

lookie8
09-06-2012, 02:00 PM
He didnt mention any statistics

He's a statistic kinda guy who I always thought was full of crap.

Now he's showing he's full of crap in more ways than one.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-06-2012, 02:02 PM
MJ
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
Miller


Jerry West? :confused:

I still have him 3rd behind MJ and Kobe.

dh144498
09-06-2012, 02:04 PM
the eff? Read through the first page and everyone says he's 4th..... Reggie miller's not a top 5 sg ever lol.

lookie8
09-06-2012, 02:10 PM
Jerry West? :confused:

I still have him 3rd behind MJ and Kobe.

West was a PG also

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 02:26 PM
Wow, now you are just full of crap.

Always knew that's what all your statistics were based on.

Where did I mention a stat? I am sorry if your views on Miller don't align with mine, that isn't my problem. But I am not sure why every time I read a post of yours, you are trying to agitate someone. Maybe try a more mature approach bud.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-06-2012, 02:30 PM
West was a PG also

But mostly SG, Gail Goodrich took the PG role.

lookie8
09-06-2012, 02:34 PM
But mostly SG, Gail Goodrich took the PG role.

Stumpy was a bigger chucker than West.

And do you know how many seasons West played without Stumpy?

lookie8
09-06-2012, 02:35 PM
Where did I mention a stat? I am sorry if your views on Miller don't align with mine, that isn't my problem. But I am not sure why every time I read a post of yours, you are trying to agitate someone. Maybe try a more mature approach bud.

Mature? Nah, I'll try to bring it down to the level that you perceive Reggie.

ombada
09-06-2012, 02:53 PM
Bigotry? Please. I simply don't get a boner over a few game winners, instead looking at a player's entire game.

Could care less.

You may be looking at his 'entire' game, but it doesnt seem like you are looking at his entire career. The way you write about it seems like you only saw important games, nationally televised games from time to time, or watched the highlights you mentioned before. As someone who watched Reggie since the day i was able to understand basketball (and even before) most of what youre saying sounds like you have only seen small portions of his play and basing a mans 18 year career on that is ludicrous.

Also if anything, he is harshly underrated. Casual fans and most fans under the age of 18 have no idea how big of an impact he had on the NBA during his time. People in NBA circles and hardcore fans that were able to see him play, however, do have this understanding.

anyway, on topic, here are a few nice articles about reggie.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20120905/SPORTS04/209060336/Former-Pacer-great-Reggie-Miller-awaits-Friday-induction-into-Hall-Fame

This one is actually about this exact topic - http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2012/09/03/pacers-is-reggie-right-behind-jordan-and-kobe-as-top-shooting-guard/

TheLegend
09-06-2012, 03:17 PM
I tell you what was underrated. Miller's picksetters and his point guards elite ability at delivering the ball to his shooter at the right time.

Again, not hating on Reggie, but I don't see much more than Rip Hamilton or Kevin Martin with a killer instinct.



It's comments like this that exposes your age. Just reading this I can tell you're probably about 20ish. Not really old enough to have watched Miller back in the day. Miller was more than that. He's easily a better player than both Martin and Rip hands down. Miller was the epitome of the term, 'playing without the ball'. Nobody did it better than Reggie Miller in that regards. Plus he was ridiculously clutch in the playoffs.

D-Leethal
09-06-2012, 03:38 PM
I agree, wade never lived up to his potential/ hype.

Never lived up to his potential? He was the 5th pick in the draft with a few guys in front of him with WAY more hype. He far surpassed his potential, nobody thought he would become a top 5 player for nearly a decade and thats exactly what he did.


It's comments like this that exposes your age. Just reading this I can tell you're probably about 20ish. Not really old enough to have watched Miller back in the day. Miller was more than that. He's easily a better player than both Martin and Rip hands down. Miller was the epitome of the term, 'playing without the ball'. Nobody did it better than Reggie Miller in that regards. Plus he was ridiculously clutch in the playoffs.

Hawkeye seems like one of the older cats on here.

Reggie was very good at running around screens and double screens like a headless chicken but thats not the only way you play off the ball. Plenty of guys have been as effective off the ball with their screen setting (which Hawk mentioned as an underrated aspect of those Indy teams), off the ball CUTTING, and theres a certain traitor in Miami who was BETTER than Reggie at his own game and beat his all time records.

Theres more to playing off the ball than curling around screens for jumpers.

I am not about to say Reggie is merely a Kevin Martin, but he ain't better than Ray Allen and hes not MUCH better than a guy like RIP. Sure as hell ain't better than West/Wade/Drexler.

StinkEye
09-06-2012, 03:47 PM
It's comments like this that exposes your age. Just reading this I can tell you're probably about 20ish. Not really old enough to have watched Miller back in the day. Miller was more than that. He's easily a better player than both Martin and Rip hands down. Miller was the epitome of the term, 'playing without the ball'. Nobody did it better than Reggie Miller in that regards. Plus he was ridiculously clutch in the playoffs.

:laugh2: you're so off.

lookie8
09-06-2012, 03:49 PM
I am not about to say Reggie is merely a Kevin Martin, but he ain't better than Ray Allen and hes not MUCH better than a guy like RIP. Sure as hell ain't better than West/Wade/Drexler.

Not much better than Rip Hamilton? That's funny.

ombada
09-06-2012, 04:01 PM
Never lived up to his potential? He was the 5th pick in the draft with a few guys in front of him with WAY more hype. He far surpassed his potential, nobody thought he would become a top 5 player for nearly a decade and thats exactly what he did.



Hawkeye seems like one of the older cats on here.

Reggie was very good at running around screens and double screens like a headless chicken but thats not the only way you play off the ball. Plenty of guys have been as effective off the ball with their screen setting (which Hawk mentioned as an underrated aspect of those Indy teams), off the ball CUTTING, and theres a certain traitor in Miami who was BETTER than Reggie at his own game and beat his all time records.

Theres more to playing off the ball than curling around screens for jumpers.

I am not about to say Reggie is merely a Kevin Martin, but he ain't better than Ray Allen and hes not MUCH better than a guy like RIP. Sure as hell ain't better than West/Wade/Drexler.

whoa whoa whoa.... as far as setting picks, reggie wouldnt need to do that. But cutting? He was always open around the basket and on the wing. Why? because he was dangerous from both spots. He didnt have to create his own shots with the ball too often, but he was incredible at creating shots off the ball. It was just a matter of having a player who could find him. He had such a high basketball IQ.

underrated ball handler too. A lot of people dont remember, but in the days before and after Mark Jackson, he would be the one bringing the ball up the court late in the 2nd and 4th. He could take the ball from one side to the other on a fast break with ease because his shot was so accurate. he could stop and pop or go to the basket, the defender had a hard time deciding which to try and defend.

one more thing...



If Reggie was a true star, the Pacers would have won.

John Stockton, Karl Malone, Kevin Johnson, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Chris Webber, Nate Thurmond, Dominique Wilkins, Pete Maravich, George Gervin, Allen Iverson, Patrick Ewing, Artis Gilmore, Walt Bellamy, Elgin Baylor, Charles Barkley... etc...

piss off with that nonsense.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 04:11 PM
It's comments like this that exposes your age. Just reading this I can tell you're probably about 20ish. Not really old enough to have watched Miller back in the day. Miller was more than that. He's easily a better player than both Martin and Rip hands down. Miller was the epitome of the term, 'playing without the ball'. Nobody did it better than Reggie Miller in that regards. Plus he was ridiculously clutch in the playoffs.

I will be 37 later this month.

Moving without the ball? Isn't that exactly what Reggie, Rip and KMart all did? It was one of the skills that gave them the ability to get a lot of shots off. I didn't say those two were better, I am saying that Miller was a glorified version of them to me. Didn't rebound, average defender at his best, not a distributor, pretty much just an efficient scorer who never stopped moving. Its his handful of playoff heroics that stands in the minds of all of you, not him barely making all star teams in his peak, or the fact that he simply wasn't even in the top 3 SG's of his era, let alone all time.

ChicagoJ
09-06-2012, 04:22 PM
Barkley, Robinson and Ewing are bigmen. Not seeing the comparison

The comparison is that when a team needed their best player to take over, like Jordan, Barkley, or any of the others mentioned, Reggie wasn't that kind of player. Generally, he wasn't going to get the ball fed to him in the 4th so he take over a game. If he was hot maybe, but otherwise he wasn't that kind of player. The others mentioned were.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 04:27 PM
Jordan
Kobe
Drexler
West
Wade
Ray-Ray
Iverson
Monroe
Gervin

I may even put Hal Greer, and Sam Jones ahead of Miller to be honest.

lookie8
09-06-2012, 04:27 PM
The comparison is that when a team needed their best player to take over, like Jordan, Barkley, or any of the others mentioned, Reggie wasn't that kind of player. Generally, he wasn't going to get the ball fed to him in the 4th so he take over a game. If he was hot maybe, but otherwise he wasn't that kind of player. The others mentioned were.

You're saying Pacers wouldn't look for Reggie when it was crunchtime?

lookie8
09-06-2012, 04:29 PM
Jordan
Kobe
Drexler
West
Wade
Ray-Ray
Iverson
Monroe
Gervin

I may even put Hal Greer, and Sam Jones ahead of Miller to be honest.

Where's Rip?

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 04:38 PM
Where's Rip?

when did I say Rip was as good? Reaching..

D-Leethal
09-06-2012, 04:41 PM
Not much better than Rip Hamilton? That's funny.

Explain what makes him 'much' better. There primes were very similar, Reggie shot more 3s, Rip was more of a mid range guy, both were best in the biz and working screens off the ball in their primes, both extremely consistent year to year. Rip 3x all star, Reggie 5x all star.

Where are you getting 'much' from besides your opinion?

lookie8
09-06-2012, 04:48 PM
Explain what makes him 'much' better. There primes were very similar, Reggie shot more 3s, Rip was more of a mid range guy, both were best in the biz and working screens off the ball in their primes, both extremely consistent year to year. Rip 3x all star, Reggie 5x all star.

Where are you getting 'much' from besides your opinion?

All I need is my opinion and my observations.

Considering Reggie to be not much better than Rip is an asinine statement, in my opinion.

ombada
09-06-2012, 05:04 PM
I will be 37 later this month.

Moving without the ball? Isn't that exactly what Reggie, Rip and KMart all did? It was one of the skills that gave them the ability to get a lot of shots off. I didn't say those two were better, I am saying that Miller was a glorified version of them to me. Didn't rebound, average defender at his best, not a distributor, pretty much just an efficient scorer who never stopped moving. Its his handful of playoff heroics that stands in the minds of all of you, not him barely making all star teams in his peak, or the fact that he simply wasn't even in the top 3 SG's of his era, let alone all time.

and which era was that? the 80's, 90's or 00's. We cant argue with you. Its all based on stats with you. You didnt watch him play much, that i can tell.

watch stuff like this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YpBP2mJe2s try to find full regular season games of the 90's-early 00' Pacers.

You may be giving him some credit in the things he did well, but you are diminishing his game to a great extent.

He was an excellent FT shooter (averaged over 90% 8 years in his career)and was able to get the line at will. He was an excellent 3 pt shooter, but remember he could shoot from anywhere on the court and had crazy range (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBhC1gMTsc8 )

Without Miller on the floor the Pacers offense stagnated. He may not have amazing asst. numbers, but he kept the ball movement going. he made passes that put other in a position to get an assist. A lot of times you have to consider that a shooter of his caliber is going to have defenses collapse on him when he gets the ball. If he was pressure he made the pass to the man that the double coverage was leaving open. When the defense rotated, that man made the pass to the next open guy. He kept plays alive. He kept games alive.

Again, he was not an amazing ball handler, but contrary to what you seemingly believe, he put the ball on the floor. He took the ball the rack often. He got hit a lot, but he made his lay-ups. He was deceivingly strong. You dont really think someone can average around or above 20 points a game for over a long stretch of his career just shooting from the outside, do you?

He may not have been the best defender, but he got inside other players heads. He stayed in front of his man, unless it was someone like Jordan, and didnt let them pass and try to poke the ball out like they do today. He tipped many passes. He averaged more than 1 steal a game 14 out of his 18 years in the NBA. He played low and played smart, he always got a hand in the shooters face. His team defense was great, as he was such a smart player the conceptual side of the game came easy to him. He led his team on both ends of the floor.

And you seriously need to get off this All star crap. He made the all star game 5 times and was on 3 all NBA teams. He has a gold medal as a part of the 96' Olympic team. If he 'wasnt even a top 3 SG of his era' why would he have been on that team?

either way, im done with this thread. If you dont understand how great he was, look up as much tape on his as you can find.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 05:08 PM
and which era was that? the 80's, 90's or 00's. We cant argue with you. Its all based on stats with you. You didnt watch him play much, that i can tell.

watch stuff like this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YpBP2mJe2s try to find full regular season games of the 90's-early 00' Pacers.

You may be giving him some credit in the things he did well, but you are diminishing his game to a great extent.

He was an excellent FT shooter (averaged over 90% 8 years in his career)and was able to get the line at will. He was an excellent 3 pt shooter, but remember he could shoot from anywhere on the court and had crazy range (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBhC1gMTsc8 )

Without Miller on the floor the Pacers offense stagnated. He may not have amazing asst. numbers, but he kept the ball movement going. he made passes that put other in a position to get an assist. A lot of times you have to consider that a shooter of his caliber is going to have defenses collapse on him when he gets the ball. If he was pressure he made the pass to the man that the double coverage was leaving open. When the defense rotated, that man made the pass to the next open guy. He kept plays alive. He kept games alive.

Again, he was not an amazing ball handler, but contrary to what you seemingly believe, he put the ball on the floor. He took the ball the rack often. He got hit a lot, but he made his lay-ups. He was deceivingly strong. You dont really think someone can average around or above 20 points a game for over a long stretch of his career just shooting from the outside, do you?

He may not have been the best defender, but he got inside other players heads. He stayed in front of his man, unless it was someone like Jordan, and didnt let them pass and try to poke the ball out like they do today. He tipped many passes. He averaged more than 1 steal a game 14 out of his 18 years in the NBA. He played low and played smart, he always got a hand in the shooters face. His team defense was great, as he was such a smart player the conceptual side of the game came easy to him. He led his team on both ends of the floor.

And you seriously need to get off this All star crap. He made the all star game 5 times and was on 3 all NBA teams. He has a gold medal as a part of the 96' Olympic team. If he 'wasnt even a top 3 SG of his era' why would he have been on that team?

either way, im done with this thread. If you dont understand how great he was, look up as much tape on his as you can find.

I haven't used a single stat in this thread. I understand perfectly his impact to the game, and to his teams win column. It's very overrated by you obviously, as well as many mainstream fans. I would take all the guys I listed ahead of him.

ombada
09-06-2012, 05:16 PM
I haven't used a single stat in this thread. I understand perfectly his impact to the game, and to his teams win column. It's very overrated by you obviously, as well as many mainstream fans. I would take all the guys I listed ahead of him.


no, sir, its underrated by you. What mainstream fans are you talking about? Most 'fans' think the same as you. NBA circles, people that actually play the game think he belongs in the NBA hall of fame, atop the upper echelon of players and SG's and would never equate his game to Rip Hamilton or Kevin Martin on steroids.

You dont have to use a stat to have a stat based argument. bringing up all star games is a stat based argument IE: how many? saying he was not a good passer (BS BTW) is a stat based argument IE: APG. You look up the stats and make your argument relevant to the numbers. I have memories and tape. Speaking of, you didnt even check out the video i posted. Seriously if your not even willing to look your comments are automatically invalid IMO.

come on man.

ok seriously, im leaving now... bye. ;)

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 05:24 PM
no, sir, its underrated by you. What mainstream fans are you talking about? Most 'fans' think the same as you. NBA circles, people that actually play the game think he belongs in the NBA hall of fame, atop the upper echelon of players and SG's and would never equate his game to Rip Hamilton or Kevin Martin on steroids.

You dont have to use a stat to have a stat based argument. bringing up all star games is a stat based argument IE: how many? saying he was not a good passer (BS BTW) is a stat based argument IE: APG. You look up the stats and make your argument relevant to the numbers. I have memories and tape. Speaking of, you didnt even check out the video i posted. Seriously if your not even willing to look your comments are automatically invalid IMO.

come on man.

ok seriously, im leaving now... bye. ;)

Obviously the best talent evaluators out there, right? I mean, Jordan, McHale, and so many great players just knock it out of the park evaluating players...

I haven't used a single stat, so I really don't know, nor care, where you are getting your opinion from. I don't think Miller was a top 10 SG ever. He was one dimensional. A pure scorer. There are too many other SG's who also scored, maybe not as efficiently, but strong enough, and when you factor in their better defense, rebounding, passing, playmaking, and versatility, Miller is looking up at them.

Kashmir13579
09-06-2012, 05:25 PM
I will be 37 later this month.

Moving without the ball? Isn't that exactly what Reggie, Rip and KMart all did? It was one of the skills that gave them the ability to get a lot of shots off. I didn't say those two were better, I am saying that Miller was a glorified version of them to me. Didn't rebound, average defender at his best, not a distributor, pretty much just an efficient scorer who never stopped moving. Its his handful of playoff heroics that stands in the minds of all of you, not him barely making all star teams in his peak, or the fact that he simply wasn't even in the top 3 SG's of his era, let alone all time.

I just don't get that logic. Martin has two seasons where his stats are somewhat comparable. Reggie did it for his whole career. He can't be a glorified version of someone he's clearly better than.

I don't even know why we're talking about RIP in the same breathe, as good a player as RIP once was.

Kashmir13579
09-06-2012, 05:26 PM
I tell you what was underrated. Miller's picksetters and his point guards elite ability at delivering the ball to his shooter at the right time.

Again, not hating on Reggie, but I don't see much more than Rip Hamilton or Kevin Martin with a killer instinct.

LOL. So Miller's picksetters paved the way for his entire career of excellence.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 05:28 PM
I just don't get that logic. Martin has two seasons where his stats are somewhat comparable. Reggie did it for his whole career. He can't be a glorified version of someone he's clearly better than.

I don't even know why we're talking about RIP in the same breathe, as good a player as RIP once was.

There styles of game are identical, Reggie just had more balls. I am not saying Martin as as good, I am saying what makes you think we should put a guy who did nothing but score effectively with the likes of the 10-12 SG's I listed on the previous page. Miller's pick setters and PG play is also being underrated. He had monsters setting picks, he simply ran his man off 3-4 of them, got his look, and drained it much of the time. Great shooter/scorer, but what did it translate to? You seem to think I am saying he wasn't great. But when I came into the thread, I am reading people saying he is anywhere from 3-5....are you effing kidding me? There are for sure 10 SG's I would take over him, maybe up to 13.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 05:29 PM
LOL. So Miller's picksetters paved the way for his entire career of excellence.

Not quite. Reggie's skillset did. His coaching staff and front office then went out and got players to play with him that capitalized on it, because he struggled to get open on his own in isolations, and needed a series of picks to thrive many times.

ChicagoJ
09-06-2012, 05:32 PM
You're saying Pacers wouldn't look for Reggie when it was crunchtime?

Sometimes yes and sometimes no. I think the pacers had more of a team concept in crunch time. Reggie was a pure shooter so he wasn't going to put the ball on the floor and create his own shot all the time. If he had his shot going then yea they were looking for him. But, if his jumper wasn't falling he wasn't all that effective.

Kashmir13579
09-06-2012, 05:33 PM
Im abit confused here, you had to be around for MJ if you were around for Reggie, no?
No. Check the timelines.. I got to see Reggie on his way out, lucky for me he was still playing at a high level. Its safe to say he became one of my favorite players and i've looked into his earlier career since then.

Regardless, just going on whatever it is you know about them, where would you rank Reggie? I don't have the gaul to rank Reggie over players i'm not very familiar with. I honestly don't know one way or the other. I already told you the players i'd confidently put Reggie ahead of.


- Tmac's peak was short but he still had a decent prime run, made more All-NBA Teams, got more MVP love than Reggie, raised the level of play of garbage to a ridiculous degree. That kind of dominance vs Reggie is the ultimate test of Peak vs Longevity and I guess we know where we both stand on this matter. Its kind of like choosing between Bill Walton and say Nate Thurmond.
I get you. And i understand just how good T-mac was at his best. At least i think i do.


Thats fine, but you still have to realize that even when doing it he was barely seen as an All-Star, made no impression on MVP voters and was at max All-NBA 3rd team.
Doesn't mean we can't appreciate it now. Looking back at his career in its entirety, its astonishing to me he didn't get more love.

Kashmir13579
09-06-2012, 05:35 PM
There styles of game are identical, Reggie just had more balls. I am not saying Martin as as good, I am saying what makes you think we should put a guy who did nothing but score effectively with the likes of the 10-12 SG's I listed on the previous page. Miller's pick setters and PG play is also being underrated. He had monsters setting picks, he simply ran his man off 3-4 of them, got his look, and drained it much of the time. Great shooter/scorer, but what did it translate to? You seem to think I am saying he wasn't great. But when I came into the thread, I am reading people saying he is anywhere from 3-5....are you effing kidding me? There are for sure 10 SG's I would take over him, maybe up to 13.

Its just crazy for me to see a poster who I KNOW values efficiency more than most be so bitter towards the KING of efficiency.

It was still Reggie running his man off 3-4 screens btw.

Kashmir13579
09-06-2012, 05:36 PM
Not quite. Reggie's skillset did. His coaching staff and front office then went out and got players to play with him that capitalized on it, because he struggled to get open on his own in isolations, and needed a series of picks to thrive many times.

I can't look at this as a knock or criticism. Just Reggie doing what he does best.

Kashmir13579
09-06-2012, 05:38 PM
2 questions:

Is it safe to say Reggie is one of the more polarizing figures in NBA history?

When its all said and done, will James Harden's career be looked at as superior to Reggie's?

mike_noodles
09-06-2012, 05:38 PM
Jordan
Kobe
Drexler
West
Wade
Ray-Ray
Iverson
Monroe
Gervin

I may even put Hal Greer, and Sam Jones ahead of Miller to be honest.

Thank you. I was wondering where all of the pre 90's guys were. Nobody around here wants to give them any love. Miller was great, but IMO he's not top 10 in SG or top 50 all NBA. I feel he's a borderline HOF. And that list is still missing others like Erving and Wilkens (both debatable). The point is that people are arguing for him as the 3rd or 4th best SG of all time behind only Jordan and Kobe, and that's laughable. The NBA was around before 1990.

Edit: I think some people overrate Reggie because of his feud with one of the most (in)famous fans ever and the marketing campaign that went with it. That also includes the choking sign he made.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 05:39 PM
Its just crazy for me to see a poster who I KNOW values efficiency more than most be so bitter towards the KING of efficiency.

It was still Reggie running his man off 3-4 screens btw.

He was extremely efficient. But there were simply better all around players at his postion. I am not bitter at all, I just think there are a handful of players every overrated by the media and fans, and a handful of players very underrated. Miller fits the overrated to me. I actually loved watching Reggie. But I also noticed him getting pushed around on defense, rarely rebounding the ball in traffic, or creating for anyone but himself on a regular basis. I think his longevity puts him in that top 12-13 argument, and if we start bringing up peaks, he falls even further.

The reason I bring up Martin or Rip? They have the exact same style game. Rip a slightly lesser version, Martin a slighly lesser version of Rip. Miller's heroics here and there are what most fans remember. The cold blooded killer. But the fact is, he was the star player on his club, and was outplayed at some of the most crucial times.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 05:40 PM
2 questions:

Is it safe to say Reggie is one of the more polarizing figures in NBA history?

When its all said and done, will James Harden's career be looked at as superior to Reggie's?

1- probably so, since many of his biggest moments came in the Garden

2- waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early to even bother predicting that.

Kashmir13579
09-06-2012, 05:41 PM
I thought reggie was a little overrated when he played, but he was still a great player. The reason why is he was the #1 go to guy for the pacers and he just wasn't that kind of a player all the time. When you looked at Jordan, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, and some others, reggie just wasn't going to do the things other top players could do all the time.

However, he was a pure shooter that could dominate with that, a fierce competitor, and loved to play mind games with both players and fans. He was one of the more memorable players to watch and deserves to be in the hall.

I wonder how good his sister would have been if she played in the nba?

Damn... I respect the **** outa this post though. Reggie was definitely the ultimate underdog because he COULDN'T do all the things the top guns could. But as you said, he still dominated in his own way.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 05:42 PM
I can't look at this as a knock or criticism. Just Reggie doing what he does best.

the man stayed in shape, I will give him that. I would have loved to have big Rik, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis and co setting picks for my chucker ***, with Jackson delivering me the rock haha.

Kashmir13579
09-06-2012, 05:47 PM
He was extremely efficient. But there were simply better all around players at his postion. I am not bitter at all, I just think there are a handful of players every overrated by the media and fans, and a handful of players very underrated. Miller fits the overrated to me. I actually loved watching Reggie. But I also noticed him getting pushed around on defense, rarely rebounding the ball in traffic, or creating for anyone but himself on a regular basis. I think his longevity puts him in that top 12-13 argument, and if we start bringing up peaks, he falls even further.
Rather than going back and forth on this i'd just as soon say i don't value peak as much as a decade of excellence.


The reason I bring up Martin or Rip? They have the exact same style game. Rip a slightly lesser version, Martin a slighly lesser version of Rip. Miller's heroics here and there are what most fans remember. The cold blooded killer. But the fact is, he was the star player on his club, and was outplayed at some of the most crucial times.
Martin if he could stay healthy would put up reggie-esque numbers. They still wouldn't be as pretty to look at. Rip not being proficient from range takes him out of this conversation entirely.

Kashmir13579
09-06-2012, 05:49 PM
the man stayed in shape, I will give him that. I would have loved to have big Rik, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis and co setting picks for my chucker ***, with Jackson delivering me the rock haha.

Its like, you can't sit here and say that every mobile shooter that comes off screens would thrive like Reggie if he played with that cast. You just can't.

StinkEye
09-06-2012, 06:03 PM
Mitch Richmond > Miller

Hawkeye15
09-06-2012, 07:03 PM
Its like, you can't sit here and say that every mobile shooter that comes off screens would thrive like Reggie if he played with that cast. You just can't.

I never said that dude. Elite shooter/scorer. Just not much else.

--23--
09-06-2012, 07:38 PM
Among other SG's he's in my top 6-7 and i really hated the guy during his playing days.

-MJ
-Kobe
-*Jerry West (That's if you considered him a SG, If not skip him)
-George Gervin
-Iverson
-Clyde Drexler
-Reggie Miller

Chronz
09-06-2012, 08:48 PM
John Stockton, Karl Malone, Kevin Johnson, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Chris Webber, Nate Thurmond, Dominique Wilkins, Pete Maravich, George Gervin, Allen Iverson, Patrick Ewing, Artis Gilmore, Walt Bellamy, Elgin Baylor, Charles Barkley... etc...

piss off with that nonsense.
Wat?



He's a statistic kinda guy who I always thought was full of crap.

Now he's showing he's full of crap in more ways than one.
Im not seeing any of that

richiesaurus310
09-06-2012, 08:56 PM
People are ranking reggie pretty high, maybe he should start on the team in my sig

TheLegend
09-06-2012, 09:16 PM
Never lived up to his potential? He was the 5th pick in the draft with a few guys in front of him with WAY more hype. He far surpassed his potential, nobody thought he would become a top 5 player for nearly a decade and thats exactly what he did.



Hawkeye seems like one of the older cats on here.

Reggie was very good at running around screens and double screens like a headless chicken but thats not the only way you play off the ball. Plenty of guys have been as effective off the ball with their screen setting (which Hawk mentioned as an underrated aspect of those Indy teams), off the ball CUTTING, and theres a certain traitor in Miami who was BETTER than Reggie at his own game and beat his all time records.

Theres more to playing off the ball than curling around screens for jumpers.

I am not about to say Reggie is merely a Kevin Martin, but he ain't better than Ray Allen and hes not MUCH better than a guy like RIP. Sure as hell ain't better than West/Wade/Drexler.


No disrespect at all. I mean that sincerely. But out of curiosity, how old are you?

R. Johnson#3
09-06-2012, 09:31 PM
Top 10-12 SG or so. I mean, he was as one dimensional as it gets, struggled to make all star teams in his peak, and was simply given extra praise for getting hot in a handful of playoff games. The guy didn't distribute, rebound, defend, or do anything outside shoot the basketball. One of the more overrated players in basketball. Top 10 pure shooter? Yep. Top 3 SG? Oh god no.

This had nothing to do with his game and everything to do with the name on the back of his jersey. Everyone hated him and rightfully so. He was a mouth piece and would just get under the skin of everybody. He'd even let opposing teams fans hear it too. This is one of the many reasons why Reggie is and always will be my favourite player. He talked, but he delivered.

Chronz
09-07-2012, 01:17 AM
This had nothing to do with his game and everything to do with the name on the back of his jersey. Everyone hated him and rightfully so. He was a mouth piece and would just get under the skin of everybody. He'd even let opposing teams fans hear it too. This is one of the many reasons why Reggie is and always will be my favourite player. He talked, but he delivered.

So the coaches and media members left him off because he talked too much? I dont know if I buy that one

Hawkeye15
09-07-2012, 01:28 AM
This had nothing to do with his game and everything to do with the name on the back of his jersey. Everyone hated him and rightfully so. He was a mouth piece and would just get under the skin of everybody. He'd even let opposing teams fans hear it too. This is one of the many reasons why Reggie is and always will be my favourite player. He talked, but he delivered.

30 teams coaches and assistants neglected to give him props because he talked? Why did Gary Payton ever make an all star team then?

D-Leethal
09-07-2012, 02:37 PM
Rather than going back and forth on this i'd just as soon say i don't value peak as much as a decade of excellence.


Martin if he could stay healthy would put up reggie-esque numbers. They still wouldn't be as pretty to look at. Rip not being proficient from range takes him out of this conversation entirely.

Rip is probably the closest thing we've seen to Reggie, moreso than Allen and anyone I can think of regardless of the 3 ball. Nobody has seen more screens, double screens, turn around jet to the weakside for 2 more sets of screens etc...

Even if Reggie was on the tailend of his career, watching him and Rip play eachother when Pistons and Pacers were kings of the East was a true pleasure. Dudes were literally playing tag chasing eachother around all day long on both ends.

Nobody has been used off the ball that way, that often throughout the game as those 2. Shuttlesworth will get those screens called here and there, but it was literally nearly everytime down the floor with those 2.

Rip, in his prime years, was also pretty damn consistent like Reggie year after year after year. Numbers really didn't waver at all. I understand not seeing the 3 ball and kind of writing off them as similar talents, but they were as similar as it gets, Rip just did his damage 3-4 feet inside from where Reggie did.

Huntey
09-07-2012, 04:04 PM
I just think he played basketball good.

IndyRealist
09-07-2012, 05:32 PM
Larry Brown said Reggie Miller was a good defender, so please stop saying he couldn't play D.

Yes Miller was fantastic at coming off screens, but he also attacked the rim quite a bit and got defenders to bit off of pump fakes and dribble drives because everyone had to play him close to try to bother the 3pt shot.

Still, his bread and butter was coming off screens for jumpers. One-dimensional? Maybe. But just like the Rondo thread, it didn't matter how you did it as long as you got it done. And from 1990-2000, the Pacers had a top 10 offense in 7 of 10 years, and the #1 offense in the league in '98-'99 and '99-'00, per basketball-reference.com. If you are the best in the world at coming off screens and hitting the 3, why would you take a different shot if you didn't have to?

Saying his offense should have been more varied is like saying Shaq should have been shooting mid-range jumpers.

Ultimately I think detractors are suffering from the same thing that they criticize proponents for, judging everything from highlight reels. If you watched any Reggie montage, you'd think 90% of his shots were 3's. This is every time Reggie Miller scored in game 3, 2000 Finals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaoPTDccWK8

And this is game 4, 2000 Finals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaI6mPr4AE0&feature=related

Tell me how many times Miller was actually unguarded in those games. How many of those points came off of "one dimensional" screen and shoot? I see a ton of pump fakes, fadeaways, turnaround jumpers, jab steps, and dribble drives.

JayW_1023
09-07-2012, 05:36 PM
Reggie's greatness isn't defined by stats or all-star selection. He was an intangibles player.

JayW_1023
09-07-2012, 05:40 PM
Damn... I respect the **** outa this post though. Reggie was definitely the ultimate underdog because he COULDN'T do all the things the top guns could. But as you said, he still dominated in his own way.

This. People overemphasize what he can't do and underemphasize what he could do.

Reggies played the game with his mind, not with his natural talent.

Hawkeye15
09-07-2012, 06:32 PM
Larry Brown said Reggie Miller was a good defender, so please stop saying he couldn't play D.


Unfortunately, I make up my own mind, from watching and looking at numbers. Miller was not a good defender. He was decent as a team defender, but was pushed into spots where the offensive player wanted to be, didn't rebound well, even for his position, and as I have said, was a one dimensional player, even if we was excellent at that one dimension. Miller was going to score 19-20 on you, and that is about as much of a contribution as he was going to give, even if he did it supremely efficiently. You could still attack him on the other end (though Brown routinely put him on the weaker wing), the one thing I will give Reggie is, you could be as physical as you wanted with him, his skinny *** was just tough and really never got tired.

Chronz
09-07-2012, 07:34 PM
Reggie's greatness isn't defined by stats or all-star selection. He was an intangibles player.

Where do you rank him anyways?

IndyRealist
09-07-2012, 07:35 PM
Unfortunately, I make up my own mind, from watching and looking at numbers. Miller was not a good defender. He was decent as a team defender, but was pushed into spots where the offensive player wanted to be, didn't rebound well, even for his position, and as I have said, was a one dimensional player, even if we was excellent at that one dimension. Miller was going to score 19-20 on you, and that is about as much of a contribution as he was going to give, even if he did it supremely efficiently. You could still attack him on the other end (though Brown routinely put him on the weaker wing), the one thing I will give Reggie is, you could be as physical as you wanted with him, his skinny *** was just tough and really never got tired.

As the yotube videos show, Miller had a fairly diverse offensive repetoire and scored on a variety of dribble drives, cuts, turnarounds, fadeaways, etc. He was very good at scoring, period. He was the first option on the #1 rated offense in the league two years running. And if you go back and look at the video, Miller doesn't not often catch and shoot off the curl. The screens are generally set to put him in iso.

Yes, Miller did not always guard the other team's best wing player, but they had a very efficient defensive wing in Derrick McKey. Risking foul trouble for Miller would be counterproductive when he's so important offensively.

He also averaged over 21ppg in 7 of 9 years in his prime, so saying that he gives you 19-20 is inaccurate. He averaged 19 for his career including 1 year he came off the bench and 4 years he was deferring to Jermaine O'Neal. He also increased his scoring averages throughout the playoffs and averaged 31 twice.

If you want to say that he was just an offensive player, that's ok. But he's "just an offensive player" like Rodman was "just a rebounder" and Mutombo was "just a shot blocker".

Superior efficiency x high usage x 18 years = Hall of Fame and top tier SG.

Chronz
09-07-2012, 07:45 PM
You guys have sold me on Miller being top 8 but to move higher, Id like to run an exercise where we hand out the awards that Miller rightfully deserved.

I mean how many All-Star games should he have been in had the fans/coaches been more savvy? How many All-NBA teams was he snubbed from?

I cant believe BJ Armstrong was more deserving at all, and as good as Petrovic was, hes no Reggie. Sprewell is the anti-Reggie IMO.

smith&wesson
09-07-2012, 08:10 PM
jordan
bryant
wade
allen
miller

im split between ray allen and d.wade. allen was a stud when he was younger and now is still a solid role player and showing some longevity.. tough choice

D-Leethal
09-07-2012, 09:29 PM
No disrespect at all. I mean that sincerely. But out of curiosity, how old are you?

I am 24. If you don't me disrespect what would you like to know my age u ****ing weirdo? Is that really how you try to discredit someones post? How about responding to my points? Trust me, if you are a Knick fan and watch MSG, you have seen a **** ton of Reggie Miller games. I am old enough to have watched him later in his career. I've been on this site 5 years do you think I joined when I was 12?

Are you an Indiana fan or some **** who has watched every Reggie Miller game ever? Or is there some type of quota of Reggie Miller games you had to watch before you can form an opinion? I mean seriously? If you saw so much more Reggie than everyone else, and your opinion was so right, you wouldn't be doing such a **** job of backing it up.

I think the real underrated dude on that team was Rik Smits.


jordan
bryant
wade
allen
miller

im split between ray allen and d.wade. allen was a stud when he was younger and now is still a solid role player and showing some longevity.. tough choice

Jerry West has got to be in the top 5.

smith&wesson
09-07-2012, 09:43 PM
Jerry West has got to be in the top 5.

i missed a bunch like richmond, drexler...your probably right. i never saw west play

Kashmir13579
09-07-2012, 11:23 PM
You guys have sold me on Miller being top 8 but to move higher, Id like to run an exercise where we hand out the awards that Miller rightfully deserved.

I mean how many All-Star games should he have been in had the fans/coaches been more savvy? How many All-NBA teams was he snubbed from?

I cant believe BJ Armstrong was more deserving at all, and as good as Petrovic was, hes no Reggie. Sprewell is the anti-Reggie IMO.

Top 8 seems reasonable. I don't know enough about his competition to argue otherwise.

To be fair, the year Latrell made the ASG over Reggie was one of Reggie's lesser seasons. Even for his declining years. If you ask me Reggie still should've made the cut over Spree that year. Are there other years in particular you think he was snubbed?

These awards and recognitions have to be made mostly on a political basis. I can't put much weight into them. I mean, Derrick Rose is the reigning MVP. Reggie must've had enemies if he's getting snubbed by the dude who choked out his coach.

Kashmir13579
09-07-2012, 11:24 PM
I am 24. If you don't me disrespect what would you like to know my age u ****ing weirdo? Is that really how you try to discredit someones post? How about responding to my points? Trust me, if you are a Knick fan and watch MSG, you have seen a **** ton of Reggie Miller games. I am old enough to have watched him later in his career. I've been on this site 5 years do you think I joined when I was 12?

Are you an Indiana fan or some **** who has watched every Reggie Miller game ever? Or is there some type of quota of Reggie Miller games you had to watch before you can form an opinion? I mean seriously? If you saw so much more Reggie than everyone else, and your opinion was so right, you wouldn't be doing such a **** job of backing it up.

If you saw Reggie in his later years, you still saw Reggie. Its not like he was a shell of himself.

EDIT: And yo, No BS, they run Reggie documentaries and **** like that all the time on MSG.

Kashmir13579
09-07-2012, 11:41 PM
Rip is probably the closest thing we've seen to Reggie, moreso than Allen and anyone I can think of regardless of the 3 ball. Nobody has seen more screens, double screens, turn around jet to the weakside for 2 more sets of screens etc...

Even if Reggie was on the tailend of his career, watching him and Rip play eachother when Pistons and Pacers were kings of the East was a true pleasure. Dudes were literally playing tag chasing eachother around all day long on both ends.

Nobody has been used off the ball that way, that often throughout the game as those 2. Shuttlesworth will get those screens called here and there, but it was literally nearly everytime down the floor with those 2.

Rip, in his prime years, was also pretty damn consistent like Reggie year after year after year. Numbers really didn't waver at all. I understand not seeing the 3 ball and kind of writing off them as similar talents, but they were as similar as it gets, Rip just did his damage 3-4 feet inside from where Reggie did.
I agree. Truth be told, it was those match-ups that really, and i mean really got me into NBA ball. The 03-04 playoffs when Reggie was blocked by Prince was a defining moment to me. I'll never forget those teams. But like i said, Hamilton's lack of true range denied him having the kind of pure offensive impact Reggie had.

Chronz
09-08-2012, 12:57 AM
To be fair, the year Latrell made the ASG over Reggie was one of Reggie's lesser seasons. Even for his declining years. If you ask me Reggie still should've made the cut over Spree that year.
LOL I put that one in there to see if you would have a conflict of interests, was I right? Was it hard to say a Knick wasnt worthy ahead of Reggie? JK dont answer that.


Are there other years in particular you think he was snubbed?
I've honestly never put much thought into, I do remember thinking how the **** was Reggie's resume so deprived of individual accolades but now that you asked I have reason to investigate.

Starting with the simplest, All-Star games:

OK so he made his first All-Star game in 1990, which also happened to be the year in which his advanced metrics turned All-Star, I always like when stats line up with reality. Reggie was very consistent throughout his career so you would figure he could have been a perennial All-Star. His teams remained a .500 club but they had horrible timing, they were well below .500 by A-S break the next 3 years. Depending on the competition that may be a valid complaint but in general Im not a fan of blaming 1 player for his teams success. The comp was pretty decent in 91, but 92?

1992: Michael Adams makes the All-Star team on a 16-30 team but Reggie cant make it on a 19-29 squad? It seems to have been a step back year for Reggie but Adams had even worse decline upon leaving the infamous Westhead run-gun system.
Unless there is someone else who got snubbed, Reggie deserves it before Adams. +1


1993: Pacers were 23-28 at the break but the Pistons were 21-29. Dumars had himself a decent year but something tells me he was living off his rep by this point. Which reminds me, theres another guy in the conversation with Reggie. Splitting hairs choosing between these 2 this year but I would have gone with Reggie, but lets just call it debatable.



1994:
BJ Armstrong :facepalm: , really shows you how popular the Bulls were. With MJ gone the fans had to vote for someone. I loved BJ, I did, I got my first fade by taking his card to the barber once, but come the **** on.

Aside from the fans ****ing up, I definitely think the coaches got carried away by giving the Knicks 3 A-S. Starks was never as good as Reggie and Im sure any decent Knick fan would agree. +2



1997:
If Dumars was debatable at age 29 he certainly wasnt at 33. But its important to know he only made it because Zo got injured and he was chosen because the Pistons were having a great year. That was only because Grant Hill got the franchise out of the gutter. Reggie would've been the better pick even with a .500 record. +3

1999: No A-S game but I think he would have made it considering its sandwiched in between 2 other selections. +4


2001:
Sprewell made it with the kind of efficiency that would make Chris Kaman blush. I recall reading an article at the time summing up the typical attributes that make us (society) overrate athletes. Big Markets, Inflated stat averages, fiery attitude, athleticism and flair. Conversely we underrate small markets, efficiency and professionalism. Well Spree vs Reggie is exactly what comes to mind when you think of those traits.

Knicks were a great defensive team and while Im sure Spree deserves some credit for that, I think it had more to do with JVG, Camby/KT. Unless you can testify that he was an absolute beast defensively, on the cusp of Artest/Bowen caliber, I dont see how it makes up for the statistical gap vs Reggie.


So thats at least +5 selections he missed out for reasons I dont understand. But I would have to check the other snub candidates to see if Reggie wasn't alone.






ALL-NBA
1993:
Drazen was essentially Miller-LITE, similar games only different results.
+1 3rd Team

Dont know about the rest, they seem to be jumbled all over the place. Like I would have never have had Spree as a first teamer, EVER. It would be painstakingly long to fix the entire decade but feel free to tell me if you know of any All-NBA 1st teamers.

Kashmir13579
09-08-2012, 11:12 AM
LOL I put that one in there to see if you would have a conflict of interests, was I right? Was it hard to say a Knick wasnt worthy ahead of Reggie? JK dont answer that.
hahaha Spree left the team the year i started following the Knicks. The Latrell i'm most familiar with played in a Twolves jersey alongside alien face and The Big Ticket. Honestly, i'm kind of an anti-homer. I'm a Knicks fan and i'm rather disgruntled with my team at the moment.



I've honestly never put much thought into, I do remember thinking how the **** was Reggie's resume so deprived of individual accolades but now that you asked I have reason to investigate.

Starting with the simplest, All-Star games:

OK so he made his first All-Star game in 1990, which also happened to be the year in which his advanced metrics turned All-Star, I always like when stats line up with reality. Reggie was very consistent throughout his career so you would figure he could have been a perennial All-Star. His teams remained a .500 club but they had horrible timing, they were well below .500 by A-S break the next 3 years. Depending on the competition that may be a valid complaint but in general Im not a fan of blaming 1 player for his teams success. The comp was pretty decent in 91, but 92?

1992: Michael Adams makes the All-Star team on a 16-30 team but Reggie cant make it on a 19-29 squad? It seems to have been a step back year for Reggie but Adams had even worse decline upon leaving the infamous Westhead run-gun system.
Unless there is someone else who got snubbed, Reggie deserves it before Adams. +1


1993: Pacers were 23-28 at the break but the Pistons were 21-29. Dumars had himself a decent year but something tells me he was living off his rep by this point. Which reminds me, theres another guy in the conversation with Reggie. Splitting hairs choosing between these 2 this year but I would have gone with Reggie, but lets just call it debatable.



1994:
BJ Armstrong :facepalm: , really shows you how popular the Bulls were. With MJ gone the fans had to vote for someone. I loved BJ, I did, I got my first fade by taking his card to the barber once, but come the **** on.

Aside from the fans ****ing up, I definitely think the coaches got carried away by giving the Knicks 3 A-S. Starks was never as good as Reggie and Im sure any decent Knick fan would agree. +2



1997:
If Dumars was debatable at age 29 he certainly wasnt at 33. But its important to know he only made it because Zo got injured and he was chosen because the Pistons were having a great year. That was only because Grant Hill got the franchise out of the gutter. Reggie would've been the better pick even with a .500 record. +3

1999: No A-S game but I think he would have made it considering its sandwiched in between 2 other selections. +4


2001:
Sprewell made it with the kind of efficiency that would make Chris Kaman blush. I recall reading an article at the time summing up the typical attributes that make us (society) overrate athletes. Big Markets, Inflated stat averages, fiery attitude, athleticism and flair. Conversely we underrate small markets, efficiency and professionalism. Well Spree vs Reggie is exactly what comes to mind when you think of those traits.

Knicks were a great defensive team and while Im sure Spree deserves some credit for that, I think it had more to do with JVG, Camby/KT. Unless you can testify that he was an absolute beast defensively, on the cusp of Artest/Bowen caliber, I dont see how it makes up for the statistical gap vs Reggie.


So thats at least +5 selections he missed out for reasons I dont understand. But I would have to check the other snub candidates to see if Reggie wasn't alone.

Nice legwork.


ALL-NBA
1993:
Drazen was essentially Miller-LITE, similar games only different results.
+1 3rd Team

Dont know about the rest, they seem to be jumbled all over the place. Like I would have never have had Spree as a first teamer, EVER. It would be painstakingly long to fix the entire decade but feel free to tell me if you know of any All-NBA 1st teamers.
I'll try to take over from here.

Third Team snubs
1989-90: Joe Dumars - A lesser Indiana team was swept by Detroit in the playoffs. Reggie played his *** off. Dropped 21 ppg on 57% shooting against the Detroit backcourt in that series.. Reggie's introduction to the playoffs. Statistically this isn't even close. +1

1990-91 Joe Dumars? - I'll leave this one up to you because i don't have many points of reference talking about these old Detroit teams. Dumars is coming off back-to-back championships. Reggie had his best season as a pro. How much do we have to respect Dumars, here? When did Tony Parker ever beat-out T-mac for an all-nba bid?

1992-93 - Drazen Petrovic.. +2

1993-94 - Reggie over The Glove seems obvious to me here. Maybe its because up until this year Reggie saw no team success in the playoffs. That hasn't kept others from wearing these stripes. It isn't exactly like Reggie regressed come play-off time either. +3

2nd Team snubs
1992-93 - Dumars.. WTF happened, here? +1

1993-94 - Mitch Richmond... Are you serious right now? Another one of Reggie's better seasons where he gets completely ****ed by whoever in Gods name makes these decisions. Weather Price should've had this spot and Reggie the 3rd team bid is completely up for debate. +debatable, he definitely gets at least 3rd team.

1994-95 - How was Mitch Richmond more deserving of 2nd team? +2

1995-96 - I'm still seeing Reggie outperforming The Glove. Another great year and this is coming after 2 years in a row of playoff dominance. +3

1997-98 Rod Strickland - Looking at advanced metrics and general per-36 stats, Reggie solidifies himself here. +4

1st Team snub?
1993-94 - Sprewell, Honestly i'm not sure who was snubbed worse this year. Mark Price or Reggie. Evaluating this years all-nba guards pissed me off and i almost gave up on this little experiment. +mind****

After the 98 season, its what should've been the passing of the torch phase.. Reggie being phased out.. If you had a bone to pick you could probably make a case for some 3rd teams after 1998. Being that Reggie's natural regression didn't seem to exist come playoff time. (at least not for a few more years)

D-Leethal
09-08-2012, 11:26 AM
I agree. Truth be told, it was those match-ups that really, and i mean really got me into NBA ball. The 03-04 playoffs when Reggie was blocked by Prince was a defining moment to me. I'll never forget those teams. But like i said, Hamilton's lack of true range denied him having the kind of pure offensive impact Reggie had.

Thats fair, the fact that Reggie hit his 3s the same way Rip would hit his mid range 2s definitely made him the more efficient and more productive player. I never said they were on the same level, but I don't think prime Rip was far behind to be honest.

This is a pretty cool vid about the way Rip utilizes off the ball screens, at the end it says how playing Reggie really taught him nuances of doing it more successfully and shows some clips. I've honestly never really seen 2 guys who complete offensive possessions revolved around them chasing screens without the ball, and if they didn't get open the first go-around, they would run them around more screens. Watching them guard eachother was like watching 2 headless chickens just run rampant around the court.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liz65vBWxJ0

D-Leethal
09-08-2012, 11:28 AM
If you saw Reggie in his later years, you still saw Reggie. Its not like he was a shell of himself.

EDIT: And yo, No BS, they run Reggie documentaries and **** like that all the time on MSG.

I think MSG has shown every single Knicks-Pacers game of the 90s about 1000 times.

I think Reggie is a notch below a guy like Ray Allen. I think Reggie having most of his storybook performances at MSG against the Knicks in high profile playoff battles really enhanced his legacy. But hey, I am one that gives the nod to guys who performs their best in biggest spots so kudos to him. I have no angst against Reggie being a Knicks fan, we got our fair share of shots in on him too.

Kashmir13579
09-08-2012, 11:48 AM
I think MSG has shown every single Knicks-Pacers game of the 90s about 1000 times.

I think Reggie is a notch below a guy like Ray Allen. I think Reggie having most of his storybook performances at MSG against the Knicks in high profile playoff battles really enhanced his legacy. But hey, I am one that gives the nod to guys who performs their best in biggest spots so kudos to him. I have no angst against Reggie being a Knicks fan, I mean we pretty much walked away with the W in nearly every series we played them.
Ok, then my question is this.. If what it took was a couple miracles on Broadway to get this guy his "legacy", at the end of the day, does that bode well for the overrated or underrated argument? I'd choose the latter.

God forbid he doesn't embarrass Spike and his wife in front of New York and all of America.

btw i'm looking for an argument for Reggie over Ray Allen and it isn't easy. Allen, though he had more ups and downs, has the same kind of longevity and is a more complete player. It isn't a landslide by any means, but i'd tend to agree with you that Miller is a slight notch below Allen. If you put a gun to my head i'm still taking Miller.

D-Leethal
09-08-2012, 12:11 PM
Ok, then my question is this.. If what it took was a couple miracles on Broadway to get this guy his "legacy", at the end of the day, does that bode well for the overrated or underrated argument? I'd choose the latter.

God forbid he doesn't embarrass Spike and his wife in front of New York and all of America.

btw i'm looking for an argument for Reggie over Ray Allen and it isn't easy. Allen, though he had more ups and downs, has the same kind of longevity and is a more complete player. It isn't a landslide by any means, but i'd tend to agree with you that Miller is a slight notch below Allen. If you put a gun to my head i'm still taking Miller.

I think because those few miracle games are what everyone is bombarded with when it comes to Reggie Miller. If those games were spread out over the course of a season or happened against the Hawks and the Nets in the playoffs those years, and not all against the Knicks with all of the surrounding theatrics, fans would not think of him and his career the same way.

I mean you wouldn't see those games plastered all over MSG, you wouldn't have a 30 for 30 made about it, you wouldn't have them on hardwood classics every couple weeks. Becoming Reggie Miller The Knick Killer enhanced his legacy and IMO without it, nobody would even consider making this thread. The whole rivalry was one of the best of the 90s. At the same time, Reggie is responsible for making all of that happen, so its hard to not give him the cred for cementing his legacy in the minds of fans with those performances on the big stage.

I think a guy like Clyde Drexler was pretty much hands down better than Reggie and doesn't get the cred he deserves because he lacks those historic performances people still talk about to this day.

Kashmir13579
09-08-2012, 12:19 PM
I think because those few miracle games are what everyone is bombarded with when it comes to Reggie Miller. If those games were spread out over the course of a season or happened against the Hawks and the Nets in the playoffs those years, and not all against the Knicks with all of the surrounding theatrics, fans would not think of him and his career the same way.

I mean you wouldn't see those games plastered all over MSG, you wouldn't have a 30 for 30 made about it, you wouldn't have them on hardwood classics every couple weeks. Becoming Reggie Miller The Knick Killer enhanced his legacy and IMO without it, nobody would even consider making this thread. The whole rivalry was one of the best of the 90s. At the same time, Reggie is responsible for making all of that happen, so its hard to not give him the cred for cementing his legacy in the minds of fans with those performances on the big stage.

I think a guy like Clyde Drexler was pretty much hands down better than Reggie and doesn't get the cred he deserves because he lacks those historic performances people still talk about to this day.
Thats my point. With or without those defining moments his accomplishments are too great to overlook. A couple pages back i posted where he stacks up on the all-time leaderboard for various general offensive stats and metrics.. This guy led the league in offensive rating multiple times as a #1 option. **** is kinda ridiculous, D. It has nothing to do with his Garden moments. Think Novak-like efficiency but 20pts every night.

D-Leethal
09-08-2012, 01:07 PM
Thats my point. With or without those defining moments his accomplishments are too great to overlook. A couple pages back i posted where he stacks up on the all-time leaderboard for various general offensive stats and metrics.. This guy led the league in offensive rating multiple times as a #1 option. **** is kinda ridiculous, D. It has nothing to do with his Garden moments. Think Novak-like efficiency but 20pts every night.

I mean I don't think anyone is overlooking them, but I do think saying hes 3rd best SG is a bit ridiculous, I don't think he would get that consideration without those front page performances. The stats are ridiculous though, I would probably go with this off the top of my head:

MJ
Kobe
West
Wade
Drexler
Iverson
Allen
Miller