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View Full Version : How come what Shaq did to Hakeem after the Finals gets swept under the rug?



Chronz
09-04-2012, 06:41 PM
People like to glorify what Dream did vs Shaq in the 95 Finals, they say he dominated Shaq even though Shaq held his own. Now I can admit that Dream outplayed him, he should have, he was in his prime and Shaq was a newbie, but he did not dominate Shaq. Maybe Im taking people too literally but to me, domination only occurs when the matchup is CLEARLY one sided ala Dream vs Ewing in 94, that was a total evisceration. To a lesser extent, Dream dominated the Admiral, just not Shaq.

Anyways, I dont want to focus on the 95 Finals, I'm just wondering why no one brings up how Shaq dominated Hakeem in the 99 Playoffs when the Lakers beat the Rockets 3-1.

Obviously Dream was no longer in his prime, but he was still an All-NBA 3rd Team Center and still producing All-Star numbers, yet Shaq made him look like a D-Leaguer. If you can point to Prime Dream barely outplaying 3rd year Shaq, then shouldnt there be some value in Prime Shaq DESTROYING Dream who was still an All-NBA performer at the time?

TheLegend
09-04-2012, 06:55 PM
The Rockets was not a championship team at that time. It wasn't on the biggest stage. It's like all the years the Bulls beat the Knicks, and then the Knicks finally beating the Bulls after Jordan retired the 1st time. You don't get credit for beating a team that is suppose to lose. They couldn't beat the Bulls at their peek with Jordan. Likewise, Shaq couldn't beat the Rockets when they were championship and at their peek. There is a difference. On the flip side, Shaq was still a elite center in '95, though not prime yet, he was still handsdown a superstar center and the Magic were a legit championship team.

heyman321
09-04-2012, 06:55 PM
No.

jrice9
09-04-2012, 06:57 PM
The Rockets was not a championship team at that time. It wasn't on the biggest stage. It's like all the years the Bulls beat the Knicks, and then the Knicks finally beating the Bulls after Jordan retired the 1st time. You don't get credit for beating a team that is suppose to lose. They couldn't beat the Bulls at their peek with Jordan. Likewise, Shaq couldn't beat the Rockets when they were championship and at their peek. There is a difference. On the flip side, Shaq was still a elite center in '95, though not prime yet, he was still handsdown a superstar center and the Magic were a legit championship team.
Yes but were not only talking about how the Lakers swept the series, its also about how Shaq vastly outperformed Hakeem in games 2-4.

Chronz
09-04-2012, 07:02 PM
The Rockets was not a championship team at that time. It wasn't on the biggest stage. It's like all the years the Bulls beat the Knicks, and then the Knicks finally beating the Bulls after Jordan retired the 1st time. You don't get credit for beating a team that is suppose to lose. They couldn't beat the Bulls at their peek with Jordan. Likewise, Shaq couldn't beat the Rockets when they were championship and at their peek. There is a difference. On the flip side, Shaq was still a elite center in '95, though not prime yet, he was still handsdown a superstar center and the Magic were a legit championship team.

Interesting point, I didnt consider either the Lakers or the Rockets to be contenders, but does that mean the individual performances of the star players are irrelevant? I dont agree with that but I can see where your coming from.

Gritz
09-04-2012, 07:23 PM
Shaqs a beast

Jesse2272
09-04-2012, 07:41 PM
Hey Ewing did set the finals blocks record that series:D

TheLegend
09-04-2012, 07:46 PM
Yes but were not only talking about how the Lakers swept the series, its also about how Shaq vastly outperformed Hakeem in games 2-4.

Again, Hakeem's time was up. Then the Rockets wasn't relevant. His career was at the tail-end. Regardless of what happened, Hakeem had already cemented himself in history. And also, it wasn't the Finals.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-04-2012, 08:08 PM
In 99, Hakeem was towards the end of his career, and the Rockets really weren't that much of a contender as they had Charles towards the end of his with Pippen only for that one year.

The Lakers were much more of a contender as they had just made the Western Conference Finals the yr before, and Shaq started coming into his own as a consistent dominant force.

3RDASYSTEM
09-04-2012, 08:37 PM
CHRONZ this is why i throw that dumb 'prime' **** out the door

SHAQ was a beast/prime in 92 draft

SHAQ/PENNY i think posted highest PER ever for duo in that FINALS loss to ROCKETS, SHAQ put up crazy numbers in a losing effort

O'Neal played well in his first Finals appearance, averaging 28 points on 59.5% shooting, 12.5 rebounds, and 6.3 assists- wat a losing stat line, he took it to DREAM like DIESEL did everbody from day1, preNBA

People in my eyes are talking about more of the sweep at 4-0 and DREAM winning FINALS MVP as domination,but head to head sheer stats, a wash..i didnt know he put up 6dimes per game...damn DIESEL

i think naturally DREAM had more respect across league and SHAQ was a young/cocky/dominant/party style type,being so young is why i think it got swept under rug media wise,but not by those who watched it happen

SHAQ was a consistent dominant force as a rookie KB-PAU-DH12 - O'Neal averaged 23.4 points on 56.2% shooting, 13.9 rebounds, and 3.5 blocks per game for the season as a ROOKIE(Or maybe it took SHAQ 4yrs to get to that dominant? or did it take him to get to LAKERLAND to be that consistantly dominant? you psd people amaze me about a 'prime' or a 'dominant' type when its clear as day the mega impact DIESEL brought instantly

nbrod
09-04-2012, 08:49 PM
Shaqs good at basketball

bagwell368
09-04-2012, 08:58 PM
Again, Hakeem's time was up. Then the Rockets wasn't relevant. His career was at the tail-end. Regardless of what happened, Hakeem had already cemented himself in history. And also, it wasn't the Finals.

x2

Chronz
09-04-2012, 09:01 PM
Hey Ewing did set the finals blocks record that series:D

He was a beast defensively, but he got owned

StarvingKnick22
09-04-2012, 09:03 PM
what about the Pacers constantly lossing to the knicks until 95?

StinkEye
09-04-2012, 09:07 PM
I'm just oozing thinking of that matchup. I wish there was still great C battles going on in the Finals, let alone in the playoffs.

Chronz
09-04-2012, 09:09 PM
In 99, Hakeem was towards the end of his career, and the Rockets really weren't that much of a contender as they had Charles towards the end of his with Pippen only for that one year.
Im not seeing how that exonerates such poor play, he was at the end of his career but he was still an All-NBA/All-Star center, and Shaq just killed him.


The Lakers were much more of a contender as they had just made the Western Conference Finals the yr before, and Shaq started coming into his own as a consistent dominant force.
I would agree that they were the better team but still not contenders. The Lakers got that far the year prior but the Lakers traded all that talent to make room for Kobe, get the cancerous Van Exel, lazy Elden away and hope that Glen Rice would step up in ways Jones never could. The team had the foundation in place, but it was the wrong mixture at that point in time.

JasonJohnHorn
09-04-2012, 10:57 PM
I dunno... I never came away with the impression that the Magic lost that series because of the center match-up. I just thought that outside of their starting line up they didn't have the kind of depth that Houston had.

I mean, Hakeem did out play Shaq, but I wouldn't say he dominated him, nor do I think anybody who watched that series would have said that either. Perhaps some people get that impression because it was a sweep. I dunno...

Cromedome
09-04-2012, 11:18 PM
Patrick getting TOTALLY owned? How old are you because I watched the games live and it was pretty much 50/50.


*or is this a Knicks bait thread?

Chronz
09-04-2012, 11:48 PM
Patrick getting TOTALLY owned? How old are you because I watched the games live and it was pretty much 50/50.


*or is this a Knicks bait thread?

What makes you think it was 50/50? Ewing was obliterated.

IndyRealist
09-04-2012, 11:58 PM
The Rockets was not a championship team at that time. It wasn't on the biggest stage. It's like all the years the Bulls beat the Knicks, and then the Knicks finally beating the Bulls after Jordan retired the 1st time. You don't get credit for beating a team that is suppose to lose. They couldn't beat the Bulls at their peek with Jordan. Likewise, Shaq couldn't beat the Rockets when they were championship and at their peek. There is a difference. On the flip side, Shaq was still a elite center in '95, though not prime yet, he was still handsdown a superstar center and the Magic were a legit championship team.

This. The question is why is '95 a matchup clearly remembered but not '99? Because one was the Finals, and the other wasn't.

It's not about excusing Dream's performance, but if I were to try, I'd say that even in '95, one player was on his way up and the other was on his way down. Dream got the better of Shaq, but there was clearly a changing of the guard happening. 4 years later is a LIFETIME in the NBA.

EastNYLos
09-05-2012, 12:00 AM
what ever bro the dream outplayed ewing but ewing was still a beast and THE KNICKS SHOULD HAVE WON THAT SERIES I'M STILL PISSED TO THIS DAY:mad:

JLynn943
09-05-2012, 12:20 AM
How many times have aging stars been outplayed by players whose career never matches up to theirs in the long run? Now, considering Shaq is one of the greatest centers of all time, I don't know why this would be surprising or noteworthy. It should have been expected.

Cromedome
09-05-2012, 12:23 AM
What makes you think it was 50/50? Ewing was obliterated.

I'm pretty sure Hakeem wasn't going up against Ewing the whole game.



Mason guarded Hakeem the most of the time, so yes, he destroyed Mason.

JordansBulls
09-10-2012, 02:21 PM
People make it like Ewing played absolutely horrible that series. He just shot bad from the field but was doing everything else.

waveycrockett
09-10-2012, 04:24 PM
The Knicks actually should of won that series, they choked with a 3 games to 2 lead with HCA. To say Hakeem eviscerated Ewing is a stretch to say the least.

SugeKnight
09-10-2012, 04:27 PM
Shaqs good at basketball

Doug's little brother

Andrew32
09-10-2012, 04:29 PM
I am on the same page with you.
I always find it funny how some people act like Hakeem was way better in the 90's atleast in terms of h2h play.

I agree that Hakeem slightly outplayed Shaq in the 95 Finals but it was close.

However... from 93-95 in the regular season Shaq was 4-2 against Hakeem and outplayed him putting up better numbers.
Then from 96+ Shaq pretty much always demolished Hakeem when they went h2h including in 96 and 97 when Hakeem was still clearly in his Prime.

Regular Season 1993-1995 : 6 Games
Shaq = 23ppg / 14rpg / 3.5apg / 1.5bpg | 59% shooting
Hakeem = 25ppg / 11rpg / 5apg / 3bpg | 46% shooting

http://i47.tinypic.com/2mdq8o8.jpg

Red Square = won matchup
Black Square = lost matchup

netsgiantsyanks
09-10-2012, 04:31 PM
i find it funny how the two best players in magic history ended up going to the lakers. :laugh2:

in b4 corny nets joke

Hawkeye15
09-10-2012, 04:38 PM
No clue why it's ignored, but its also why I have Shaq over Hakeem on my all time list. I simply think Shaq was more dominant over a longer period of time, and would LOVED to have seen 99 Shaq against 95 Dream.

Shaq claims to this day that Hakeem is the best center he has ever seen, and I guarantee its due to the 95 finals.

C_Mund
09-10-2012, 04:55 PM
I think the decline in the Dream's game was pretty drastic. When big men hit the wrong side of the hill they start to drop pretty quick. The Dream was clearly not the same player, but neither was Ewing or the Admiral which is why he was still third-team all NBA. Shaq was about to hit the peak of his powers at that time so I'd say he was expected to have won the match-up.

Chronz
09-10-2012, 05:56 PM
People make it like Ewing played absolutely horrible that series. He just shot bad from the field but was doing everything else.

Yea but thats a pretty big deal. Its not as if Hakeem wasnt doing anything but scoring.


Werent you trying to convince people that Melo and Durant arguably outplayed Bron in these last playoffs because of their scoring?

8kobe24
09-10-2012, 06:52 PM
Yea but thats a pretty big deal. Its not as if Hakeem wasnt doing anything but scoring.


Werent you trying to convince people that Melo and Durant arguably outplayed Bron in these last playoffs because of their scoring?

The perception of shaq being dominated comes from orlando being swept.

Iggz53
09-10-2012, 08:32 PM
Meh, we're talking about a 27 yr old against a 36 yr old. As good as Hakeem was during the season...he was still 36. It would literally be like giving Dwight Howard the nod over Tim Duncan career-wise if Dwight had a good series against him next year. It really wouldn't be a fair assessment.

KnickaBocka.44
09-10-2012, 08:52 PM
What makes you think it was 50/50? Ewing was obliterated.

This isn't true. It was pretty much 60/40 Olajuwon. Ewing was outplayed but not nearly by the margin Chronz is suggesting.

KnickaBocka.44
09-10-2012, 08:59 PM
Olajuwon didn't have a game where he shot over 50% until game 4.


Fact of the matter is; if Starks didn't totally crap himself in game 7 and go 2-18 from the field, the Knicks win the championship that year.

steviefranchise
09-10-2012, 09:48 PM
Olajuwon didn't have a game where he shot over 50% until game 4.


Fact of the matter is; if Starks didn't totally crap himself in game 7 and go 2-18 from the field, the Knicks win the championship that year.

But the FACT OF THE MATTER IS: KNICKS LOST and the ROCKETS WON. There aren't any and(s), if(s) or but(s) about it.

KnickaBocka.44
09-10-2012, 10:01 PM
But the FACT OF THE MATTER IS: KNICKS LOST and the ROCKETS WON. There aren't any and(s), if(s) or but(s) about it.

Wow, I'm blown away by your insightfulness.

JNA17
09-10-2012, 10:03 PM
36 year old center and a 27 year old center. The fact that Hakeem was even that good at 36 shows how great he really was.

Fact is, Shaq was hitting his prime in 99, Hakeem's was gone. Their both one of the greatest of all time but I will always give the nod for Hakeem over Shaq. Simply because there wasn't anything Hakeem can't do that Shaq could do better besides just using his physical stregenth to dominate. Hakeem was also that times the athleticism, times the masterful post moves, times the passing, times the defense, and of course, times the free throws.

Chronz
09-10-2012, 10:29 PM
This isn't true. It was pretty much 60/40 Olajuwon. Ewing was outplayed but not nearly by the margin Chronz is suggesting.
How do you know I dont consider a 60-40 margin to be dominating?

Like if thats how you want to sell the series then Shaq vs Dream was 52-48 and Dream vs Robinson was 55-45, dont really see it that way, all I know is that compared to those 2, Ewing had the worst showing.

Chronz
09-10-2012, 10:33 PM
36 year old center and a 27 year old center. The fact that Hakeem was even that good at 36 shows how great he really was.

Fact is, Shaq was hitting his prime in 99, Hakeem's was gone. Their both one of the greatest of all time but I will always give the nod for Hakeem over Shaq. Simply because there wasn't anything Hakeem can't do that Shaq could do better besides just using his physical stregenth to dominate. Hakeem was also that times the athleticism, times the masterful post moves, times the passing, times the defense, and of course, times the free throws.
Agreed, I mean aside from dominating, there is nothing Dream couldnt do as well as Shaq. :cool:

KnickaBocka.44
09-10-2012, 11:15 PM
How do you know I dont consider a 60-40 margin to be dominating?

Like if thats how you want to sell the series then Shaq vs Dream was 52-48 and Dream vs Robinson was 55-45, dont really see it that way, all I know is that compared to those 2, Ewing had the worst showing.

If you look at all of the actual numbers you wouldn't consider it dominating.

To put it into your vernacular, Ewing "eviscerated" Olajuwon on the boards and "obliterated" the Rockets in the paint defensively with his record setting defensive performance. You can't say he dominated him when he didn't play up to his gold standard outside of a few games, one of which was an outstanding performance (Game 4: 14-20 for 32 points) and was outplayed in other facets of the game that are extremely important to the Center position.

I absolutely agree with you that Ewing came up short of expectations in that series, and I'm not arguing that Ewing was as good as Olajuwon but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

beliges
09-10-2012, 11:26 PM
People like to glorify what Dream did vs Shaq in the 95 Finals, they say he dominated Shaq even though Shaq held his own. Now I can admit that Dream outplayed him, he should have, he was in his prime and Shaq was a newbie, but he did not dominate Shaq. Maybe Im taking people too literally but to me, domination only occurs when the matchup is CLEARLY one sided ala Dream vs Ewing in 94, that was a total evisceration. To a lesser extent, Dream dominated the Admiral, just not Shaq.

Anyways, I dont want to focus on the 95 Finals, I'm just wondering why no one brings up how Shaq dominated Hakeem in the 99 Playoffs when the Lakers beat the Rockets 3-1.

Obviously Dream was no longer in his prime, but he was still an All-NBA 3rd Team Center and still producing All-Star numbers, yet Shaq made him look like a D-Leaguer. If you can point to Prime Dream barely outplaying 3rd year Shaq, then shouldnt there be some value in Prime Shaq DESTROYING Dream who was still an All-NBA performer at the time?

The answer to this question is because Hakeem was on the decline and on the last legs of his career. When it mattered the most, on the biggest stage, Hakeem dominated and humbled young Shaq. But theres no comparison between '99 Hakeem and '94 Hakeem.

Chronz
09-10-2012, 11:48 PM
If you look at all of the actual numbers you wouldn't consider it dominating.
The softy in me would simply say that I only consider it to be a domination in contrast to the fight I saw from the other centers, but I think it would hold true on its own.


To put it into your vernacular, Ewing "eviscerated" Olajuwon on the boards and "obliterated" the Rockets in the paint defensively with his record setting defensive performance.
Yea but you dont need many offensive rebounds when your making alot more of your shots (they both grabbed a similar amount of defensive rebounds). And Ewing was great defensively no doubt, but Hakeem wasn't far off, the real difference comes in their offensive games, thats where the TRUE beatdown comes.


You can't say he dominated him when he didn't play up to his gold standard outside of a few games, one of which was an outstanding performance (Game 4: 14-20 for 32 points) and was outplayed in other facets of the game that are extremely important to the Center position.
I can say it quite easily when his counterpart sees his own offensive game shrink to unimaginable levels. If your going to sell Dreams Finals performance short by looking at only 1 game then I suggest you do the same for Ewing.
Take out the only great game Ewing had and you have a player who shot 47/139 .338% in 6 entire games. Even Iverson would have a hard time being so inefficient.

I mean I knew Hakeem was a better offensive player, he had finally become a complete playmaker but I never thought Ewing would play that bad.


I absolutely agree with you that Ewing came up short of expectations in that series, and I'm not arguing that Ewing was as good as Olajuwon but let's not get ahead of ourselves.
I dont see what other conclusion we can come to here, Ewing did alot more than come up short, he shot at a rate that would be bad for a PG in the 50's.

Chronz
09-10-2012, 11:51 PM
The answer to this question is because Hakeem was on the decline and on the last legs of his career. When it mattered the most, on the biggest stage, Hakeem dominated and humbled young Shaq. But theres no comparison between '99 Hakeem and '94 Hakeem.

Your probably right but nobody has really answered my question for this but Ill ask you anyways, he was declining but hes was still an All-NBA player, doesnt that come with a certain level of expectation? Does being on the decline excuse any sort of play even though the team was relying on you to perform at an All-NBA level?

KnickaBocka.44
09-11-2012, 01:14 AM
The softy in me would simply say that I only consider it to be a domination in contrast to the fight I saw from the other centers, but I think it would hold true on its own.


Yea but you dont need many offensive rebounds when your making alot more of your shots (they both grabbed a similar amount of defensive rebounds). And Ewing was great defensively no doubt, but Hakeem wasn't far off, the real difference comes in their offensive games, thats where the TRUE beatdown comes.


I can say it quite easily when his counterpart sees his own offensive game shrink to unimaginable levels. If your going to sell Dreams Finals performance short by looking at only 1 game then I suggest you do the same for Ewing.
Take out the only great game Ewing had and you have a player who shot 47/139 .338% in 6 entire games. Even Iverson would have a hard time being so inefficient.

I mean I knew Hakeem was a better offensive player, he had finally become a complete playmaker but I never thought Ewing would play that bad.


I dont see what other conclusion we can come to here, Ewing did alot more than come up short, he shot at a rate that would be bad for a PG in the 50's.

Your argument about offensive rebounds is pretty weak since offensive rebounds come off of other players' shots as well. It's not like Ewing was missing on purpose to pad his stats.

I was saying that that 1 game was an exceptional performance from Olajuwon. My argument wasn't that Ewing performed well offensively, it was that you are greatly over-exaggerating Olajuwon's performance throughout the whole series. Especially when you ignore the fact that Ewing dominated the boards and the paint on the defensive end; limiting Olajuwon to sub-Olajuwon standard performances efficiency wise and erasing shots at a record setting rate.

LeonFSU
09-11-2012, 01:42 AM
I understand why you made this thread. Its quite simple really. Shaq, in his prime, was a better player than Hakeem was in his prime. Unfortunately their primes didn't coincide, so people looking to compare the two sometimes like to point out that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the Finals. Those people who can honestly use that as part of their argument apparently are blind to the fact that Shaq, in those Finals, in his third year in the league, was a fraction of the player he later became.

So it isn't completely dissimilar, as a rebuttal to the above stupid argument, that Shaq, in his prime, outplayed Hakeem when Hakeem was a fraction of his own prime. The point, however, is there was never a battle between the two centers in their primes, and thus, basing the argument of who is better on those two series is illogical.

Shaq is the better player, in my opinion, because you can look at Shaq's greatest years and see that Shaq was better than Hakeem in Hakeem's greatest years. If you could take the best centers, Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt, Bill Russell, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, Moses, whoever and put them in their primes against Shaq in his prime, they would all get destroyed. NOBODY was stopping Shaq at that point in his career.

ArmLaker
09-11-2012, 01:51 AM
Hakeem outplayed O'Neal in '95. But if we were to match up both of them in their absolute primes, Shaq would eat Hakeem alive, and I'm proud he was a Laker in his prime.

Chronz
09-11-2012, 11:35 AM
Your argument about offensive rebounds is pretty weak since offensive rebounds come off of other players' shots as well.
That would be a weak argument, but its not the one Im making. Show me where I said Ewing only rebounded his shots. The point remains, you dont have to get many offensive rebounds when your making your shots. Offensive rebound are a way to improve your teams offense and make up for a lack of efficiency individually. The reasons are obvious, if you miss a shot your costing a your team a possession but if your getting an offensive rebound, your getting possessions back. Sadly even when we account for them, Ewing was just far too ineffective individually to exonerate his shortcomings. Offensively, it was a JOKE of a matchup.


It's not like Ewing was missing on purpose to pad his stats.
A common mistake, dont let what the streets/tv says influence you. You dont pad your stats by MISSING shots. Rebounding your own miss is a neutral play on the efficiency scale.
Its like going -1, then +1 with the rebound, leaving you at ZERO.


I was saying that that 1 game was an exceptional performance from Olajuwon. My argument wasn't that Ewing performed well offensively, it was that you are greatly over-exaggerating Olajuwon's performance throughout the whole series.
I dont see how, can you explain why? I mean look at the matchup. Ewing was a tad better defensively but Hakeem was MILES ahead offensively.


Especially when you ignore the fact that Ewing dominated the boards and the paint on the defensive end;
Im not ignoring anything, even when you account for his offensive rebounding his efficiency was putrid. And Hakeem was great defensively as well so its not going to distinguish him in this matchup, know what does? Ewing shooting like a guard from the 50's.


limiting Olajuwon to sub-Olajuwon standard performances efficiency wise and erasing shots at a record setting rate.
How do you not see that you have to apply the same logic to Ewing. Hakeem lost .4 off his scoring average and shot 50%. Thats ALOT closer to his standard level of play than Ewing losing 5.5PTS off his and shooting a pathetic 36%.

JordansBulls
09-17-2012, 08:22 PM
Hakeem outplayed O'Neal in '95. But if we were to match up both of them in their absolute primes, Shaq would eat Hakeem alive, and I'm proud he was a Laker in his prime.

More of a standstill

Go_NUGGETS
09-18-2012, 12:41 PM
Shaq claims to this day that Hakeem is the best center he has ever seen, and I guarantee its due to the 95 finals.

No, it's because Hakeem could do things that most Centers couldn't--which is shoot from all places on the floor, and could do anything Shaq could do. Overall, Shaqs inability to shoot places him below Hakeem in my list.

smith&wesson
09-18-2012, 01:15 PM
hakeem was still good but age clearly caught up with him by then. persoanlly i think hakeem and shaq are the best C's. but i didnt see wilt or kaj play. or russle for that matter.