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dh144498
08-31-2012, 01:56 PM
where do you rank kobe all time?

I rank him 8-9. him and duncan are interchangeable for me.

Chacarron
08-31-2012, 01:59 PM
Top 10.

Faneik
08-31-2012, 02:01 PM
where do you rank kobe all time?

I rank him 8-9. him and duncan are interchangeable for me.

you're a kobe fan.

this is a thread for non-kobe fans. so why did you answer it?...

dh144498
08-31-2012, 02:03 PM
you're a kobe fan.

this is a thread for non-kobe fans. so why did you answer it?...

So I can only defend someone when I'm his fan? Why not just use logic, reasoning, fairness, and common sense?

Logical fallacy: hasty generalization.

I've added you to the ignore list, have a great day.

Faneik
08-31-2012, 02:05 PM
top 15

top 4 SG - 1. MJ 2. Oscar 3. J-West 4. Kobe

blue bleeder09
08-31-2012, 02:08 PM
Top 5
Mj
Magic
Russel
Wilt
Kobe

Thats my top 5 imo

yaswaggin
08-31-2012, 02:22 PM
Top 10 barely after durant and Lebron retire hel be top 12

Heatcheck
08-31-2012, 02:45 PM
between 10 and 15. Spectacular player, but not top 10. dont like his shot selection.

ChicagoJ
08-31-2012, 02:45 PM
Top 5 or top 10. One of the all time greats for sure.

tbone2171
08-31-2012, 03:07 PM
Top 100

Hawkeye15
08-31-2012, 03:08 PM
top 10.

Heatcheck
08-31-2012, 03:15 PM
top 10.

is this with the rings included, or just as a player?

Slug3
08-31-2012, 03:21 PM
is this with the rings included, or just as a player?

I am sure with both.

Hellcrooner
08-31-2012, 03:24 PM
This ones are over him clearly.

Magic, Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Oscar.

So he is on a debate with Mikan,west, Baylor, Havlicek Dr J, Moses Malone, Hakeem, RObinson, Shaq, Duncan for the remaining top 10-15

dh144498
08-31-2012, 03:24 PM
is this with the rings included, or just as a player?

everything.

what does your top 10 look like for whatever criteria you prefer?

mngopher35
08-31-2012, 03:24 PM
Top 10. I think anywhere from 6-10 is pretty fair.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 03:26 PM
This ones are over him clearly.

Magic, Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Oscar.

So he is on a debate with Mikan,west, Baylor, Havlicek Dr J, Moses Malone, Hakeem, RObinson, Shaq, Duncan for the remaining top 10-15


I have a question, do you not have Lebron in the 10-15 or you just forgot?

Hellcrooner
08-31-2012, 03:28 PM
I have a question, do you not have Lebron in the 10-15 or you just forgot?

Not yet.
he still has half his career ahead.
His book is not finished, he will most definetly enter the top 10 and probably top 5.

KObe can sneak in the top 5 with a pair more of rings.

D-Block21-Chito
08-31-2012, 03:37 PM
Top 10. I think anywhere from 6-10 is pretty fair.

THIS!!

To say he is not top 10 is ignorant in my eyes.

rocket
08-31-2012, 03:39 PM
top 10

Heatcheck
08-31-2012, 03:43 PM
everything.

what does your top 10 look like for whatever criteria you prefer?

jordan
Magic
Shaq
Bird
Wilt
Robertson
Kareem
Duncan
Robinson
hakeem
Moses
Lebron


I think rings are a team accomplishment. Only one here did it with lames is hakeem, and in retrospect i should put him higher. id take wade before kobe (granted im a heat fan) but i feel he's a little more productive and efficient (look at the numbers).

Heatcheck
08-31-2012, 03:44 PM
Not yet.
he still has half his career ahead.
His book is not finished, he will most definetly enter the top 10 and probably top 5.

KObe can sneak in the top 5 with a pair more of rings.

He's not good enough at this age to unseat any of the top 5

SeoulBeatz
08-31-2012, 03:58 PM
Top 10 easily IMO. I don't see Durant or Lebron surpassing his championship #'s and frankly, Kobe was such an excellent/well-rounded player on both ends of the court in his prime (easily the closest thing to Jordan since he retired) that if he wins a 7th chip this year he contends for top 5 IMO.

douglas
08-31-2012, 04:05 PM
Kobe Bryant is really good at making basketball shots. When he shoots the ball, he usually makes the basketball shot.

tapajafri
08-31-2012, 04:06 PM
So I can only defend someone when I'm his fan? Why not just use logic, reasoning, fairness, and common sense?

Logical fallacy: hasty generalization.

I've added you to the ignore list, have a great day.

dont take that little girl route out haha man up

tapajafri
08-31-2012, 04:06 PM
Kobe Bryant is really good at making basketball shots. When he shoots the ball, he usually makes the basketball shot.

stop

Avenged
08-31-2012, 04:15 PM
Top 10. (somewhere from 8-10)

TheSource
08-31-2012, 04:15 PM
Jordan
Kareem
Bill
Wilt
Magic
Larry
Kobe
Shaq
Oscar
Hakeem
Duncan

dh144498
08-31-2012, 04:18 PM
dont take that little girl route out haha man up

Whatever you say..... I don't wanna read his silly posts though. :cool:

ElChinoLatino
08-31-2012, 04:20 PM
Now top 10, after LeBron retires top 12/15 maybe other stars on the rise so we'll see.

tapajafri
08-31-2012, 04:29 PM
Whatever you say..... I don't wanna read his silly posts though. :cool:

well all he said was that you, a kobe fan, answered a question that was directed to non kobe fans... so i dont see what the problem was with his post.... unless u saw that celtics logo and youre a laker fan so the bias was neutral? lol

dh144498
08-31-2012, 04:34 PM
well all he said was that you, a kobe fan, answered a question that was directed to non kobe fans... so i dont see what the problem was with his post.... unless u saw that celtics logo and youre a laker fan so the bias was neutral? lol

that actually started in another thread about "why kobe gets disrespected" or something like that. He specifically pointed out something about Kobe which I (and several others) thought was 1. unrelated to the thread and 2. had bad intentions. So I called him out for it bashing on Kobe and he then called me a Kobe nut hugger. Then I made this thread later on and he came in here and continued where we left off.

--23--
08-31-2012, 04:45 PM
somewhere between the top 11-15.

jerellh528
08-31-2012, 04:45 PM
1.mj
2.magic
3.kobe

pedrofan45
08-31-2012, 04:49 PM
top 10... you're crazy if you put kobe ahead of shaq

Shlumpledink
08-31-2012, 04:51 PM
Top 5 of players in the last 30 years. I won't make a claim on someone i've never seen paly, because I don't want to just regurgitate opinions

beliges
08-31-2012, 04:51 PM
top 10... you're crazy if you put kobe ahead of shaq

How so? Dont get it. Kobe was more dominant in terms of winning that Shaq was. He has more championships than Shaq. He has won more without Shaq than Shaq ever did without Kobe.

He surpassed Shaq last season in all time points. His prime was much longer than Shaq's was and he has achieved greater success during his career than Shaq did. Why exactly would one have to be crazy to put Kobe ahead of Shaq? The facts dont side with your argument.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 04:53 PM
how so? Dont get it. Kobe was more dominant in terms of winning that shaq was. He has more championships than shaq. He has won more without shaq than shaq ever did without kobe.

He surpassed shaq last season in all time points. His prime was much longer than shaq's was and he has achieved greater success during his career than shaq did. Why exactly would one have to be crazy to put kobe ahead of shaq? The facts dont side with your argument.

Because PER.

Dade County
08-31-2012, 04:55 PM
top 15... and Shaq is a head of him.

Kobe is a great talent... he had a very good career.

ThunderousDemon
08-31-2012, 05:00 PM
top 10

SaimuKala
08-31-2012, 05:04 PM
Somewhere like 7-9.

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-31-2012, 05:04 PM
top 15... and Shaq is a head of him.

Kobe is a great talent... he had a very good career.

Heat fans can't even put Kobe top 10...That says it all

jerellh528
08-31-2012, 05:04 PM
Because PER.

hahahhahaha :facepalm:

Chronz
08-31-2012, 05:05 PM
2nd best perimeter player ever, the only guys I would have ahead of him are bigs.

MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Shaq
Dream
Duncan

Those 6 are set in stone for me.

Then its the Kobe, Magic, Bird, Moses, West and Russell's of the world

Chronz
08-31-2012, 05:09 PM
How so? Dont get it. Kobe was more dominant in terms of winning that Shaq was. He has more championships than Shaq. He has won more without Shaq than Shaq ever did without Kobe.

He surpassed Shaq last season in all time points. His prime was much longer than Shaq's was and he has achieved greater success during his career than Shaq did. Why exactly would one have to be crazy to put Kobe ahead of Shaq? The facts dont side with your argument.

Kobe wasnt more dominant than Shaq at any point in his career, his teams may have won more but thats pretty lazy analysis if your just going to rate the individual solely on how his team does rather than the impact he has on said team.

Like Kobe has more rings than Shaq, but during that 3-peat the Lakers were at least contending without Kobe, but without Shaq the were treading .500. So why would I value Kobes rings as much as Shaqs if he wasnt as vital to his team?

SaimuKala
08-31-2012, 05:09 PM
top 15... and Shaq is a head of him.

Kobe is a great talent... he had a very good career.

Where does LeBron rank?

dh144498
08-31-2012, 05:12 PM
2nd best perimeter player ever, the only guys I would have ahead of him are bigs.

MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Shaq
Dream
Duncan

Those 6 are set in stone for me.

Then its the Kobe, Magic, Moses, Bird, Moses, West and Russell's of the world

interesting. So does that mean your 1-6 are set like that? If so can you explain to me what your reasoning is for putting some of the bigs ahead of Bird and Magic? Or did you make your list solely based on player value? Since most people would build around dominant bigs before perimeters, with MJ being the exception.

ChiSox219
08-31-2012, 05:14 PM
Lebron over Kobe

Chronz
08-31-2012, 05:15 PM
This ones are over him clearly.

Magic, Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Oscar.

So he is on a debate with Mikan,west, Baylor, Havlicek Dr J, Moses Malone, Hakeem, RObinson, Shaq, Duncan for the remaining top 10-15

How are Bird and Oscar clearly better?

Chronz
08-31-2012, 05:17 PM
interesting. So does that mean your 1-6 are set like that? If so can you explain to me what your reasoning is for putting some of the bigs ahead of Bird and Magic? Or did you make your list solely based on player value? Since most people would build around dominant bigs before perimeters, with MJ being the exception.

Bird lacks the longevity and the health. He and Kobe are pretty similar except for the fact that Bird partook in one too many bar fights and had an assortment of ailments that really stunted his playoff performances. If he took better care of his body, hes makes the cut above Kobe.

douglas
08-31-2012, 05:20 PM
stop

Well sir, you have been added to the ignore list. Have a great day.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 05:20 PM
Bird lacks the longevity and the health. He and Kobe are pretty similar except for the fact that Bird partook in one too many bar fights and had an assortment of ailments that really stunted his playoff performances. If he took better care of his body, hes makes the cut above Kobe.

rofl....:laugh::laugh:

beliges
08-31-2012, 05:21 PM
Kobe wasnt more dominant than Shaq at any point in his career, his teams may have won more but thats pretty lazy analysis if your just going to rate the individual solely on how his team does rather than the impact he has on said team.

Like Kobe has more rings than Shaq, but during that 3-peat the Lakers were at least contending without Kobe, but without Shaq the were treading .500. So why would I value Kobes rings as much as Shaqs if he wasnt as vital to his team?

Not sure about that argument. It seems you base your definition of dominance on individual stats. I base it more on winning. Kobe's dominance during his prime as a perimeter player were as good as Shaq's was during his prime as a center. Its hard to compare the numbers of a big man to a shooting guard. But I think in 06 at least, Kobe was as dominant as a guard than Shaq ever was as a center, at least in terms of individualness.

However, Shaq's teams without Kobe, stemming back to his Orlando days, and even a few years in Miami after the Lakers were just as good as Kobe's Lakers without Shaq. Kobe ended up winning more than Shaq given the same amount of talent. To me thats much more persuasive when it comes to dominance than comparing a center's individual numbers to a guard's. And I would argue to you that Kobe's vitality to the Lakers' team was just as important as Shaq's was in the sense that Shaq never won a damn thing on a great Orlando team. And it took him teaming up with Kobe, and Kobe coming into his own before Shaq took the Lakers anywhere. Hell, even from 96-99 the Lakers were completely stacked and Shaq couldnt really do much in terms of winning until Kobe became Kobe.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 05:21 PM
Well sir, you have been added to the ignore list. Have a great day.

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

lakersiznumber1
08-31-2012, 05:30 PM
:facepalm: in the words of stephen a smith you haters are so disrespectful lol kobe is top 5 top 2 for me cause i never seen oscar wilt and all those ol school ballers. But kobe at 10-15 :drunk: yea right. how is duncan and shaq hakkem higher than kobe:facepalm: kobe is the best player ever to step on a basketball court since mj.


1 mj
2 kobe
3kareem
4 oscar
5 wilt

Chronz
08-31-2012, 05:35 PM
Not sure about that argument. It seems you base your definition of dominance on individual stats.
False, read the part where I state the Lakers winning % with and without Shaq vs With and without Kobe. I base dominance off the individuals role and impact with his team. But I wont apologize for Shaqs statistical superiority. Its not the foundation but it only strengthens my argument.



I base it more on winning.
Yea, I base it on the role the individual has on winning. If you base it simply on winning then you have lots of inferior players ahead of others. Like Elvin Hayes over Charles Barkley/Karl Malone. The same argument your making for Kobe you could make for alot of other inferior players. Its not about winning, but HOW YOU WIN.


Kobe's dominance during his prime as a perimeter player were as good as Shaq's was during his prime as a center.
False, there is literally no evidence to support this theory.


Its hard to compare the numbers of a big man to a shooting guard. But I think in 06 at least, Kobe was as dominant as a guard than Shaq ever was as a center, at least in terms of individualness.
Based on what? You just gave an example of why Kobe cant touch Shaq. Lets focus on the individual for the moment, Kobe had his most prolific/productive season on a .500 team, the better his team got, the less they needed him to produce insane numbers. Sounds logical right. Well lets put that season in perspective, Shaq was more productive/efficient than Kobe, the only difference is Shaq put up those monstrous numbers on championship winning squads. So it takes Kobe being on a bad team to even approximate the statistical worth Shaq has on a CHAMPIONSHIP team. Thats why Kobe has never been as dominant, your better off sticking to the longevity argument.



However, Shaq's teams without Kobe, stemming back to his Orlando days, and even a few years in Miami after the Lakers were just as good as Kobe's Lakers without Shaq.
Nah, but lets remember that when the trade to Miami happened the Lakers floundered and the Heat became immediate contenders. Its clear, one had the much more dominant impact for his team.


Kobe ended up winning more than Shaq given the same amount of talent.
Utterly false, Kobe ended up winning more but it was because he had more talent relative to his competition.


To me thats much more persuasive when it comes to dominance than comparing a center's individual numbers to a guard's.
Yea, if only it were true. Instead we live in a world where Kobes teams dont seem to falter as much without him as those same exact teammates did without the big fella. Its not Kobes fault, you cant teach 7"1.



And I would argue to you that Kobe's vitality to the Lakers' team was just as important as Shaq's was in the sense that Shaq never won a damn thing on a great Orlando team. And it took him teaming up with Kobe, and Kobe coming into his own before Shaq took the Lakers anywhere.
I dont see how that makes Kobe better when in that same span the Lakers could at least contend with Shaq but were unable to win at even a moderate rate with only Kobe. This trend would persist for the duration of Shaqs prime. When he got traded to Miami they became contenders and only remained so, so long as Shaq was productive.


Hell, even from 96-99 the Lakers were completely stacked and Shaq couldnt really do much in terms of winning until Kobe became Kobe.
Yea but other teams were more stacked, in those days Shaq didnt have the best talent alongside him the way Kobe did during his final 2 chips. Even so, why would I value an extra ring higher than Shaq when Kobe wasnt as vital to those same teams? I may as well consider Hondo Havlicek greater than both these guys.

beliges
08-31-2012, 06:18 PM
Not sure about that argument. It seems you base your definition of dominance on individual stats.
False, read the part where I state the Lakers winning % with and without Shaq vs With and without Kobe. I base dominance off the individuals role and impact with his team. But I wont apologize for Shaqs statistical superiority. Its not the foundation but it only strengthens my argument.



I base it more on winning.
Yea, I base it on the role the individual has on winning. If you base it simply on winning then you have lots of inferior players ahead of others. Like Elvin Hayes over Charles Barkley/Karl Malone. The same argument your making for Kobe you could make for alot of other inferior players. Its not about winning, but HOW YOU WIN.


Kobe's dominance during his prime as a perimeter player were as good as Shaq's was during his prime as a center.
False, there is literally no evidence to support this theory.


Its hard to compare the numbers of a big man to a shooting guard. But I think in 06 at least, Kobe was as dominant as a guard than Shaq ever was as a center, at least in terms of individualness.
Based on what? You just gave an example of why Kobe cant touch Shaq. Lets focus on the individual for the moment, Kobe had his most prolific/productive season on a .500 team, the better his team got, the less they needed him to produce insane numbers. Sounds logical right. Well lets put that season in perspective, Shaq was more productive/efficient than Kobe, the only difference is Shaq put up those monstrous numbers on championship winning squads. So it takes Kobe being on a bad team to even approximate the statistical worth Shaq has on a CHAMPIONSHIP team. Thats why Kobe has never been as dominant, your better off sticking to the longevity argument.



However, Shaq's teams without Kobe, stemming back to his Orlando days, and even a few years in Miami after the Lakers were just as good as Kobe's Lakers without Shaq.
Nah, but lets remember that when the trade to Miami happened the Lakers floundered and the Heat became immediate contenders. Its clear, one had the much more dominant impact for his team.


Kobe ended up winning more than Shaq given the same amount of talent.
Utterly false, Kobe ended up winning more but it was because he had more talent relative to his competition.


To me thats much more persuasive when it comes to dominance than comparing a center's individual numbers to a guard's.
Yea, if only it were true. Instead we live in a world where Kobes teams dont seem to falter as much without him as those same exact teammates did without the big fella. Its not Kobes fault, you cant teach 7"1.



And I would argue to you that Kobe's vitality to the Lakers' team was just as important as Shaq's was in the sense that Shaq never won a damn thing on a great Orlando team. And it took him teaming up with Kobe, and Kobe coming into his own before Shaq took the Lakers anywhere.
I dont see how that makes Kobe better when in that same span the Lakers could at least contend with Shaq but were unable to win at even a moderate rate with only Kobe. This trend would persist for the duration of Shaqs prime. When he got traded to Miami they became contenders and only remained so, so long as Shaq was productive.


Hell, even from 96-99 the Lakers were completely stacked and Shaq couldnt really do much in terms of winning until Kobe became Kobe.
Yea but other teams were more stacked, in those days Shaq didnt have the best talent alongside him the way Kobe did during his final 2 chips. Even so, why would I value an extra ring higher than Shaq when Kobe wasnt as vital to those same teams? I may as well consider Hondo Havlicek greater than both these guys.

You base it on winning %..I base it on actual winning. To me what a teams winning percentage is holds no weight to whether a team.wins a championship. There are plenty of players who lead their teams to a good winning %. But there are only a handful of players who have lead their teams to multiple championships.

b@llhog24
08-31-2012, 06:36 PM
Top 12

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 06:37 PM
Kobe Bryant is really good at making basketball shots. When he shoots the ball, he usually makes the basketball shot.

:laugh2:

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 06:40 PM
Heat fans can't even put Kobe top 10...That says it all

Heat Nation:


July 7th, 2010 - Kobe is Top 10


July 8th, 2010 - Kobe is Top 20 maybe. Wade and LeBron are better all-time.

seikou8
08-31-2012, 06:43 PM
he is top 10

Chronz
08-31-2012, 06:45 PM
You base it on winning %..I base it on actual winning. To me what a teams winning percentage is holds no weight to whether a team.wins a championship.
You misunderstand, I base it on in the influence the individual has on his teams winning %. Why would I base it on just a team winning championships when it has been proven that no 1 player can take his team to that level of play? What has been proven is that Shaq is 1 player who brings your team closer to contending on his own than Kobe ever could. I mean its not like we get to bring Kobes teammates along with him, so when evaluating the individual why the importance on the team accomplishment rather than the role the individual played in attaining that accomplishment?

It would be as ridiculous as me saying Kobe, when he was scoring 81PTS and in his prime, wasnt as good as the kid who won his first title. Its not as if Kobe wasnt good enough to lead a team to a title that year, he just didnt have the cast. So why would I stress his teammates when Im trying to gauge the individuals impact?



There are plenty of players who lead their teams to a good winning %.
Not many that had the impact Shaq in getting their team to that winning%, Kobe included. As evident by the fact that the Lakers faltered without their most important piece to the championship puzzle, whereas without Kobe the team was still in the hunt.


But there are only a handful of players who have lead their teams to multiple championships.
There are also players with rings that are inferior to players without them, so why would I put so much stock on how good a players teammates were rather than the influence the individual had on his team?

STA_PLAR
08-31-2012, 07:01 PM
I hate Kobe but he is a top 8 at the least, anywhere from 4 to 8 is reasonable.
I still think SHAQ should always be higher than him.

Purple&Gold24
08-31-2012, 07:04 PM
Top 7

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 07:09 PM
I hate Kobe but he is a top 8 at the least, anywhere from 4 to 8 is reasonable.
I still think SHAQ should always be higher than him.

If Mamba wins 2 more rings with this group of Nash-Dwight-Pau, then you can make the argument that Kobe won more without Shaq (4) than he did with Shaq (3). Then I don't think you can put Shaq above Kobe.


Did Shaq have a more dominant prime than Kobe? Absolutely.


But then again, how long was Shaq's actual prime??

Answer: Not too long, because he didn't take care of his body nor showed the desire or dedication to stay in tip-top shape.


Kobe's longevity and more yrs of relevance than Shaq and his ability to still be mentioned among the best in the league after 16 yrs in the association trumps Shaq's maybe 3-4 yrs of dominance from 1999-2003 (2003-2004 his last yr with the Lakers, he looked just flat out atrocious!)

b@llhog24
08-31-2012, 07:11 PM
Chronz putting in work.

Raidaz4Life
08-31-2012, 07:13 PM
I'd say top 10 should be a given. While people love to hate Kobe for everything he isn't (main one being mj), by the time his career is over, he is going to be one of the only players in history to not only lead a team to 5+ championships but play at an elite level for over 15 seasons.


I think it will do wonders for his all time ranking in the eyes of stat junkies if he can drop his usage percentage over the next couple years and hike up that efficiency a bit while still playing at a high level.

jericho
08-31-2012, 07:18 PM
How so? Dont get it. Kobe was more dominant in terms of winning that Shaq was. He has more championships than Shaq. He has won more without Shaq than Shaq ever did without Kobe.

He surpassed Shaq last season in all time points. His prime was much longer than Shaq's was and he has achieved greater success during his career than Shaq did. Why exactly would one have to be crazy to put Kobe ahead of Shaq? The facts dont side with your argument.

i wont talk bout stats or say that shaq or kobe is better cuz i dont really care bout them ..................... but kobe got in to the nba straight out of high school he was 18 when he got in i think (im not sure lol) shaq got in to the nba like around 21 or 22 so kobe was gonna pass him up in points anyways

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-31-2012, 07:19 PM
10th.

tapajafri
08-31-2012, 07:24 PM
Well sir, you have been added to the ignore list. Have a great day.

oh no!!!! the ignore list?!?!?!?!?!?

:speechless::speechless::speechless::speechless:

tapajafri
08-31-2012, 07:25 PM
that actually started in another thread about "why kobe gets disrespected" or something like that. He specifically pointed out something about Kobe which I (and several others) thought was 1. unrelated to the thread and 2. had bad intentions. So I called him out for it bashing on Kobe and he then called me a Kobe nut hugger. Then I made this thread later on and he came in here and continued where we left off.

lol. u guys are the best of friends then.

Chronz
08-31-2012, 07:45 PM
If Mamba wins 2 more rings with this group of Nash-Dwight-Pau, then you can make the argument that Kobe won more without Shaq (4) than he did with Shaq (3). Then I don't think you can put Shaq above Kobe.
Too simplistic, what if Kobe is a shell of his former self in the process? Id be more interested in how well Kobe plays more than anything.



But then again, how long was Shaq's actual prime??
Pretty damn long


Answer: Not too long, because he didn't take care of his body nor showed the desire or dedication to stay in tip-top shape.
Based on what?

Shaq knew his body and the rigors an NBA season would have on it better than anyone. He paced himself accordingly, he may not have been in optimal shape a few times but thats not what shortened his career (as if being 2nd All-Time in All-NBA selections somehow constitutes a short career), him not getting the appropriate surgery for his toe prolly had more to do with his decline. Instead he insisted on the procedure that would get him on the court sooner, and if you recall that was the year the Lakers were in a serious slide, Kobe played great but the Lakers were under .500 and dropping fast. Shaq comes back at like 80% and the Lakers take off instantly. Phil was the only guy who was able to get away with calling Shaq fat but even he understood the punishment Shaq took gave him some leeway with his training regimen.

Riley didnt understand this and he had Shaq come in at a lean 325 his first year with Miami, as a result Shaq put in more effort and had an MVP season (Nash wasnt worthy) the only bad thing is, that for the first time in his career, Shaq wasnt even remotely healthy for the playoffs, he put too much effort into the regular season and his lack of beef meant the nagging hits he took lingered longer than usual. Its why Shaq came back beefier the next year and won a chip, he ignored Riley's pleas and paced himself how he saw fit.

So yea, I laugh at people who think they know Shaq's body better than he does, I agree he could have done more, and while his relatively mild dedication may have prevented him from being the best of all time, it wont hurt him in a comparison with Kobe. He was simply too big to be contained the way Kobe has throughout his prime. Lots of players underachieved, but Ill always take the superior player regardless. I dont care about effort, just results. He could be the laziest mofo on the planet but if he has a greater impact on the game of basketball, I will settle for that.


Kobe's longevity and more yrs of relevance than Shaq and his ability to still be mentioned among the best in the league after 16 yrs in the association trumps Shaq's maybe 3-4 yrs of dominance from 1999-2003 (2003-2004 his last yr with the Lakers, he looked just flat out atrocious!)
99-03 were only his best years, which is relevant in an argument against someone like MJ, but against Kobe? He displayed a greater level of play than Kobe for far longer than that. Even the year you claim he looked atrocious he was still the superior player. I do think that was one of his worst years athletically, but even then the Lakers defense went to **** without him to a far greater degree than without Kobe, and he was more productive than him to boot.

Chronz
08-31-2012, 07:47 PM
i wont talk bout stats or say that shaq or kobe is better cuz i dont really care bout them ..................... but kobe got in to the nba straight out of high school he was 18 when he got in i think (im not sure lol) shaq got in to the nba like around 21 or 22 so kobe was gonna pass him up in points anyways

Its a minuscule point anyways, Ill take Shaqs overall production value over Kobes. And then when you factor in the importance to the team, Shaq wins there too. Its basically a landslide victory, he wins statistically and subjectively.

douglas
08-31-2012, 07:48 PM
Look, there has been some debate as to whether Kobe is in the top 5 or top 10 or whatever. But I know one thing for certain. He is at least somewhere in the top 200.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2012, 08:05 PM
is this with the rings included, or just as a player?

uh, its all inclusive. Kobe Bryant is a top 10 player ever, if you think otherwise, I will debate you on it.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2012, 08:08 PM
2nd best perimeter player ever, the only guys I would have ahead of him are bigs.

MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Shaq
Dream
Duncan

Those 6 are set in stone for me.

Then its the Kobe, Magic, Bird, Moses, West and Russell's of the world

Real question. Has Kobe passed Bird? For you I mean.

C-Style
08-31-2012, 08:17 PM
.

C-Style
08-31-2012, 08:23 PM
somewhere between the top 11-15.




top 15... and Shaq is a head of him.

Kobe is a great talent... he had a very good career.



Who are the other top 14 players that have a case over him?

SteBO
08-31-2012, 08:30 PM
He's unquestionably top 10, but he has a legitamite top 5 argument and have no qualms with placing him there all time when his career is over, especially if he gets one more ring.

Heatcheck
08-31-2012, 09:01 PM
uh, its all inclusive. Kobe Bryant is a top 10 player ever, if you think otherwise, I will debate you on it.

You take Kobe over any of the guys on my list? Maybe i have a little biased towards bigmen because an elite big man impacts the game way more than an elite perimeter player, unless you can produce like jordan, and that we know kobe cant do.

Chronz
08-31-2012, 09:32 PM
2nd best perimeter player ever, the only guys I would have ahead of him are bigs.

MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Shaq
Dream
Duncan

Those 6 are set in stone for me.

Then its the Kobe, Magic, Bird, Moses, West and Russell's of the world

Real question. Has Kobe passed Bird? For you I mean.
I believe I've already answered that unless you don't consider Bird to be a perimeter player. But yes he has, quite easily actually

beasted86
08-31-2012, 09:37 PM
I say 9-12. Really depends on how he finishes his career and what he does with his current cast.

And for the lames/trolls who are bashing others just for having an opinion and want to cram Kobe's 5 rings down our throat I have some reality for you. Russell was 5x MVP and has 11 rings, and there are a ton of people who don't even have him top 10. So for Kobe fanatics to sit here and bash people just because we don't have him on "auto-lock" for a top 5 spot is just stupid.

JasonJohnHorn
08-31-2012, 09:39 PM
Kobe is not in my top ten. Top twenty likely. I have a lot of centers in my top ten though, so I'm a little biased toward big men because of the rebounding numbers and defence that goes along with their scoring. And I got Duncan over Kobe by a logn shot. Kobe isn't even in the same conversation with Duncan in my book. I would agree that Kobe is perhaps a little more talented, and certainly as hard a worker as Duncan, but Duncan's approach to the game and maturity makes his impact so much bigger than Kobe's. If it had been Shaq and Duncan instead of Shaq and Kobe, Shaq would have retired in LA and they'd have won 6 in a row easily.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 09:40 PM
I say 9-12. Really depends on how he finishes his career and what he does with his current cast.

And for the lames/trolls who are bashing others just for having an opinion and want to cram Kobe's 5 rings down our throat I have some reality for you. Russell was 5x MVP and has 11 rings, and there are a ton of people who don't even have him top 10. So for Kobe fanatics to sit here and bash people just because we don't have him on "auto-lock" for a top 5 spot is just stupid.

You're right, Kobe is not a lock for top 5, as of right now, I still have Magic, Michael, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Larry and Shaq ahead of him. He is my #8 in front of Hakeem and Duncan. This is my list if anyone is wondering.


My apologies to OP, but I just can't resist.


1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

As of right now, I give the edge of Shaq over Kobe because Kobe may have "only 1" more title than Shaq, but Shaq still has 3 Lakers Finals MVPs to Kobe's 2. Kobe doesn't necessarily have to win a finals MVP, but if he wins 2 more NBA Titles like I think he will, and by the time he retires, he'll be the all-time leader in playoff points, 3rd all-time regular season points (behind Kareem and Karl Malone), all-time leader in all-star game points and steals, most all-star game MVPs (5) (just needs 1 more to surpass Bob Petit), finishing with 7 NBA titles, 2 finals MVPs, 1 League MVP, 2 Scoring Titles, 2 Olympic Gold Medals, a Slam Dunk Title, 18 superb seasons in the association.....


He will surpass Shaq, Bird, Wilt and Russell and be top 4 behind MJ, Magic and Kareem. I really think 4 is his ceiling. He can accomplish all this in the next 2 yrs IMO.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 09:47 PM
Kobe is not in my top ten. Top twenty likely. I have a lot of centers in my top ten though, so I'm a little biased toward big men because of the rebounding numbers and defence that goes along with their scoring. And I got Duncan over Kobe by a logn shot. Kobe isn't even in the same conversation with Duncan in my book. I would agree that Kobe is perhaps a little more talented, and certainly as hard a worker as Duncan, but Duncan's approach to the game and maturity makes his impact so much bigger than Kobe's. If it had been Shaq and Duncan instead of Shaq and Kobe, Shaq would have retired in LA and they'd have won 6 in a row easily.

What does that mean "maturity to the game". Duncan has been playing on the support of Parker and Ginobili for like the last 4 yrs now. He's never led a team to repeat titles, Kobe has beat Duncan in most of the head-to-head playoff battles. Just because Duncan is a more likable guy doesn't mean you just shove aside everything that Kobe has done just because you've always had this seething hate for him.

And who the hell said Shaq and Duncan could be a possibility? What is this, NBA 2K?? :confused:

beasted86
08-31-2012, 09:53 PM
I think rings are overrated. I hear this a whole lot, especially recently, but I don't see how some people for example have Kobe as say 9th, for discussion sake, and then say if he wins another ring or two they will move him to 5 or 6th.

Like that there doesn't make a lick of sense to me since you could basically put any top 10 player with Kobe's current cast of players and similarly make them a favorite to win the Finals or actually give them a better chance to win. So, yeah that makes no sense to me. For example, if you had Magic ahead of Kobe, Kobe winning another ring doesn't make him any better than Magic, because I'm 100% certain he could win with Kobe's team in place of Kobe.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 09:59 PM
I think rings are overrated. I hear this a whole lot, especially recently, but I don't see how some people for example have Kobe as say 9th, for discussion sake, and then say if he wins another ring or two they will move him to 5 or 6th.

Like that there doesn't make a lick of sense to me since you could basically put any top 10 player with Kobe's current cast of players and similarly make them a favorite to win the Finals or actually give them a better chance to win. So, yeah that makes no sense to me. For example, if you had Magic ahead of Kobe, Kobe winning another ring doesn't make him any better than Magic, because I'm 100% certain he could win with Kobe's team in place of Kobe.


You're right, I just can't put Kobe in front of Magic. I have this weird dynamic going on in my mind; I feel with 1 or 2 more rings, Kobe will be the greatest Laker of all time, but at the same time, Magic will be ahead of him in the final rankings since he revolutionized the game of basketball and began the glory era of the NBA, and he was just the consummate true professional, teammate and showman in the NBA.

Winning long-term plays a huge role for me, which is why an extra ring or 2 for me moves Kobe up in the rankings (especially the fact that he will be one of the main reasons they win championship despite the star-studded lineup with Pau, Dwight and Steve).


Rings signify excellence, and obviously, Dwight and Nash both were enamored to join the Lakers because they know they have that 1 guy who has done it before, has that high championship pedigree, and has demanded excellence and championship play in practice and in games from the very day he stepped foot as a rookie at the Great Western Forum in Inglewood CA as a 17yr old in 1996.

beasted86
08-31-2012, 10:07 PM
You're right, I just can't put Kobe in front of Magic. I have this weird dynamic going on in my mind; I feel with 1 or 2 more rings, Kobe will be the greatest Laker of all time, but at the same time, Magic will be ahead of him in the final rankings since he revolutionized the game of basketball and began the glory era of the NBA, and he was just the consummate true professional, teammate and showman in the NBA.

Winning long-term plays a huge role for me, which is why an extra ring or 2 for me moves Kobe up in the rankings (especially the fact that he will be one of the main reasons they win championship despite the star-studded lineup with Pau, Dwight and Steve).

His ranking doesn't change at all for me no matter how many rings he has or wins... or more he wins. And I don't subscribe to the lame "easy" or "superteam" excuses that other posters have either, it's just I think rings are overrated in general.

The only thing that will change my ranking (as I said I could see him 9-12th) mostly has to do with how he plays in older age. There are a lot of great players who were plain dominating still at 36+ and he will go up if he plays at a high level longer. I also think his ranking will go down if he is a cause of conflict and somewhat carries blame if his current team falls way short, especially something crazy like the Lakers not even making the Finals.

StinkEye
08-31-2012, 10:10 PM
Top 15. In an all-time draft I'd probably take 20 other guys ahead of him. I just don't think he's as impactful as a lot of the guys in the top 30. I understand he's got a great resume, tonnes of accolades, and a bunch of championships, but he's also been the most fortunate superstar in a long time. Imagine LeBron playing his whole career in LA with a great supporting cast.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 10:12 PM
The only thing that will change my ranking (as I said I could see him 9-12th) mostly has to do with how he plays in older age. There are a lot of great players who were plain dominating still at 36+ and he will go up if he plays at a high level longer. I also think his ranking will go down if he is a cause of conflict and somewhat carries blame if his current team falls way short, especially something crazy like the Lakers not even making the Finals.

I'll agree with this. Some other posters like Chronz have gone out to say that they want to see how he plays as he ages. That will be interesting to see, although I don't know if he play beyond the age of 35. He has 2 yrs left on his contract. Summer of 2014 will be the culmination of his 18th season. :cry:

JasonJohnHorn
08-31-2012, 10:32 PM
What does that mean "maturity to the game". Duncan has been playing on the support of Parker and Ginobili for like the last 4 yrs now. He's never led a team to repeat titles, Kobe has beat Duncan in most of the head-to-head playoff battles. Just because Duncan is a more likable guy doesn't mean you just shove aside everything that Kobe has done just because you've always had this seething hate for him.

And who the hell said Shaq and Duncan could be a possibility? What is this, NBA 2K?? :confused:

Seething hate for Kobe? I don't hate him. I don't even know him. What I know of him I have seen on the court, and to be perfectly frank, he's a ball hog. He doesn't make the players around him better and in fact he causes a lot of problems when it comes to chemistry. He is immature. He is a ball hog, and he puts up a lot of bad shots. There is a reason he DIDN'T lead the league in scoring this season DESPITE PUTTING UP MORE SHOTS THAN ANYBODY!!!!!! Kobe is as talented as Jordan. So was McGrady. But that doesn't mean they are as good as Jordan.

As for the Dunca/Shaq combo, I was merely noting, because people were putting the two players next to each other, that had Duncan been in Kobe's place, he would have had more success than Kobe and WOULDN'T have chased the best center in the league out of LA.

Kobe has issues. There was a reason Dwight was at first hesitant about a trade to LA. As talented as Kobe is, his ego is even bigger. Kobe believes he is in the conversation with Jordan, in all likelihood Kobe thinks he is BETTER than jordan, and that's fine for him, but it shows on the floor. It impacts his productivety.

As for Duncan riding on Man and Parker... Duncan MADE Manu and Parker the players they are. Had they been playing with an all-star like Kobe instead of Duncan, they wouldn't have been given the chance to develop into all-stars because Kobe would have been hogging the ball too much.


Hate... no, I don't hate Kobe. But I don't like his approach to the game, and his approach has almost as many negatives as it does positives. There is no reason the Lakers shouldn't have been in the finals the last two years. Instead, they got swept out one season, and handed a tidy defeat by the thunder in the following season.

Kobe is simply not on the same level as Duncan. There is a reason why Duncan has helped his team to 13 straight 50-win seasons and why they finished with the best record in the west the last two seasons.


As for where Kobe sits on my list... here's who I got above him (in no particular order):

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
The Big O
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Robinson
Duncan
Shaq


I have no problem with people who might put Kobe as high as 12 all-time, but anything higher indicates to me that the person simply doesn't have an appreciations for the impact that the above players had both on the floor, and on the game in general.

jerellh528
09-01-2012, 12:08 AM
I hope a lot of you guys are around 80 years old, because alot of you have players in your top lists that I know for a fact you have never see play, like bill russell for instance, so dont talk about appreciation for other players blah blah blah, make up your own minds about players instead of recycling the same old opinions as everyone else...if america always did that, slavery would still exist...

StinkEye
09-01-2012, 12:18 AM
I hope a lot of you guys are around 80 years old, because alot of you have players in your top lists that I know for a fact you have never see play, like bill russell for instance, so dont talk about appreciation for other players blah blah blah, make up your own minds about players instead of recycling the same old opinions as everyone else...if america always did that, slavery would still exist...

cocaine is one helluva drug.

b@llhog24
09-01-2012, 01:14 AM
I hope a lot of you guys are around 80 years old, because alot of you have players in your top lists that I know for a fact you have never see play, like bill russell for instance, so dont talk about appreciation for other players blah blah blah, make up your own minds about players instead of recycling the same old opinions as everyone else...if america always did that, slavery would still exist...

So you can never rank a player unless you've seen them play live?

albertajaysfan
09-01-2012, 01:25 AM
Top 10 easily IMO. I don't see Durant or Lebron surpassing his championship #'s and frankly, Kobe was such an excellent/well-rounded player on both ends of the court in his prime (easily the closest thing to Jordan since he retired) that if he wins a 7th chip this year he contends for top 5 IMO.

If Kobe wins his 7th chip this year he is the GOAT. He would become the first player ever to win TWO chips in ONE season.

albertajaysfan
09-01-2012, 01:28 AM
In response to the OPs question.

I say somewhere in the top 8-12.

MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Magic, Oscar and Bird keep him out of the top 7.

jerellh528
09-01-2012, 01:43 AM
So you can never rank a player unless you've seen them play live?

I think santa claus is the most jolly man alive!!

Lakersfan2483
09-01-2012, 01:46 AM
Top 10. I have him hovering around no. 7 or 8 all time.

b@llhog24
09-01-2012, 01:52 AM
I think santa claus is the most jolly man alive!!

Good for you.

C-Style
09-01-2012, 02:41 AM
Kobe is not in my top ten. Top twenty likely. I have a lot of centers in my top ten though, so I'm a little biased toward big men because of the rebounding numbers and defence that goes along with their scoring. And I got Duncan over Kobe by a logn shot. Kobe isn't even in the same conversation with Duncan in my book. I would agree that Kobe is perhaps a little more talented, and certainly as hard a worker as Duncan, but Duncan's approach to the game and maturity makes his impact so much bigger than Kobe's. If it had been Shaq and Duncan instead of Shaq and Kobe, Shaq would have retired in LA and they'd have won 6 in a row easily.


http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv324/TimLovesChezza/CherylLaugh.gif

C-Style
09-01-2012, 02:42 AM
Top 10. I have him hovering around no. 7 or 8 all time.

who asked u?

Lakersfan2483
09-01-2012, 02:56 AM
who asked u?

I took it upon myself to answer the OP's question.;)

Evolution23
09-01-2012, 03:00 AM
Top 10 easily IMO. I don't see Durant or Lebron surpassing his championship #'s and frankly, Kobe was such an excellent/well-rounded player on both ends of the court in his prime (easily the closest thing to Jordan since he retired) that if he wins a 7th chip this year he contends for top 5 IMO.

6th this year

KingPosey
09-01-2012, 03:05 AM
top 3 SG just behind MJ and Mitch Richmond. I have seen Kobe kill amazing Kings teams in ways only Jordan has done.

LakersMaster24
09-01-2012, 03:18 AM
This ones are over him clearly.

Magic, Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Oscar.

So he is on a debate with Mikan,west, Baylor, Havlicek Dr J, Moses Malone, Hakeem, RObinson, Shaq, Duncan for the remaining top 10-15

I think its more than fair to say that Kobe > Mikan. I also can't really put Malone, Dr J, Baylor, West or Havlicek ahead of Kobe.

Kobe is Top 10, somewhere around 8th or 9th.

Greedy22
09-01-2012, 03:23 AM
Top 10, I've got him at 6

naps
09-01-2012, 03:40 AM
In terms of accomplishments and team accolades he's into top 10 or 12 for sure. Playing for the best-run franchise ever does help accomplishing great team success. But he's not a top 20 talent or player (In an all-time draft I would take more than 20 players ahead of Kobe).

seikou8
09-01-2012, 03:45 AM
In terms of accomplishments and team accolades he's into top 10 or 12 for sure. Playing for the best-run franchise ever does help accomplishing great team success. But he's not a top 20 talent or player (In an all-time draft I would take more than 20 players ahead of Kobe).

20 please give me list

naps
09-01-2012, 04:24 AM
20 please give me list

If you are really interested I will PM you a list. I just don't wanna put it here that will result in a gigantic outcry from his fans and take this thread eventually off-topic. Like I said career-wise Kobe is definitely top 10 or 12 but not as an individual talent. Most of his fans won't understand the difference between these two criteria. So check out your inbox.

C-Style
09-01-2012, 04:37 AM
Kobe not top 20 as a individual talent?

28/6/5/2 46% career as starter.
Unlimited scoring ability.
Great defensive player in his prime.
Top 5 clutches player of all-time.
1 of maybe 3 players to master the game.
Closest player to MJ than we ever seen.

Can't think of 10 perimeter players better than him. THIS DEF NEEDS A SEPERATE THREAT.

albertajaysfan
09-01-2012, 06:08 AM
6th this year

You were much nicer then I was.....lol

b@llhog24
09-01-2012, 06:51 AM
Kobe not top 20 as a individual talent?

28/6/5/2 46% career as starter.
Unlimited scoring ability.
Great defensive player in his prime.
Top 5 clutches player of all-time.
1 of maybe 3 players to master the game.
Closest player to MJ than we ever seen.

Can't think of 10 perimeter players better than him. THIS DEF NEEDS A SEPERATE THREAT.

Kobe is immensely talent but in comparison to a ton of wings he kind of falls short. What makes Kobe so great is he's made the most out of his God given ability with his tireless work ethic. As far as perimeter players are concerned Tmac, Baylor, Mj, Wade, Magic, Bird, Bron, West, Oscar; had peaks as great as and in some instances better than Kobes, it's just most of them lack the longevity to even make it any argument. :shrug:

Faneik
09-01-2012, 08:23 AM
cocaine is one helluva drug.

or the nba started in 1996, around the time kobe was drafted

king4day
09-01-2012, 09:12 AM
Unfortunately, without having experienced anything before the 90's it makes it difficult for me to make fair judgement. From what I have seen, definently top 10.

BigCityofDreams
09-01-2012, 10:56 AM
Around 7-11 anything lower is insane

Longhornfan1234
09-01-2012, 11:38 AM
Top 10... I have Kobe at 8. If he wins another ring as the " man", he's moves up to 6.

Slimsim
09-01-2012, 11:46 AM
Top 8

Vinylman
09-01-2012, 01:04 PM
i wont talk bout stats or say that shaq or kobe is better cuz i dont really care bout them ..................... but kobe got in to the nba straight out of high school he was 18 when he got in i think (im not sure lol) shaq got in to the nba like around 21 or 22 so kobe was gonna pass him up in points anyways

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

I guess you won't use logic either

kobe has scored 888 more points than shaq in 46 less games

but yeah... he started at a younger age :rolleyes:

Vinylman
09-01-2012, 01:08 PM
Seething hate for Kobe? I don't hate him. I don't even know him. What I know of him I have seen on the court, and to be perfectly frank, he's a ball hog. He doesn't make the players around him better and in fact he causes a lot of problems when it comes to chemistry. He is immature. He is a ball hog, and he puts up a lot of bad shots. There is a reason he DIDN'T lead the league in scoring this season DESPITE PUTTING UP MORE SHOTS THAN ANYBODY!!!!!! Kobe is as talented as Jordan. So was McGrady. But that doesn't mean they are as good as Jordan.

As for the Dunca/Shaq combo, I was merely noting, because people were putting the two players next to each other, that had Duncan been in Kobe's place, he would have had more success than Kobe and WOULDN'T have chased the best center in the league out of LA.

Kobe has issues. There was a reason Dwight was at first hesitant about a trade to LA. As talented as Kobe is, his ego is even bigger. Kobe believes he is in the conversation with Jordan, in all likelihood Kobe thinks he is BETTER than jordan, and that's fine for him, but it shows on the floor. It impacts his productivety.

As for Duncan riding on Man and Parker... Duncan MADE Manu and Parker the players they are. Had they been playing with an all-star like Kobe instead of Duncan, they wouldn't have been given the chance to develop into all-stars because Kobe would have been hogging the ball too much.


Hate... no, I don't hate Kobe. But I don't like his approach to the game, and his approach has almost as many negatives as it does positives. There is no reason the Lakers shouldn't have been in the finals the last two years. Instead, they got swept out one season, and handed a tidy defeat by the thunder in the following season.

Kobe is simply not on the same level as Duncan. There is a reason why Duncan has helped his team to 13 straight 50-win seasons and why they finished with the best record in the west the last two seasons.


As for where Kobe sits on my list... here's who I got above him (in no particular order):

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
The Big O
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Robinson
Duncan
Shaq


I have no problem with people who might put Kobe as high as 12 all-time, but anything higher indicates to me that the person simply doesn't have an appreciations for the impact that the above players had both on the floor, and on the game in general.

100 on the ignorance meter...

this is a classic PSD example of the true science of hate :clap:

bathroom_man
09-01-2012, 02:53 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

I guess you won't use logic either

kobe has scored 888 more points than shaq in 46 less games

but yeah... he started at a younger age :rolleyes:

kobe didnt play much his first 2 seasons, the dude sucks but after that, forget about it... so shaq started at 21/22. kobe started at 20/21.. minimal differences

bathroom_man
09-01-2012, 02:56 PM
by jasonjohnhorn

There is no reason the Lakers shouldn't have been in the finals the last two years.

5 straight finals appearances, u kidding me? if kobe went to 5 straight finals, he would rank #1 wayyyyyyyyy ahead of jordan.. but no, kobe is human

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-01-2012, 03:00 PM
Kobe not top 20 as a individual talent?

28/6/5/2 46% career as starter.
Unlimited scoring ability.
Great defensive player in his prime.
Top 5 clutches player of all-time.
1 of maybe 3 players to master the game.
Closest player to MJ than we ever seen.

Can't think of 10 perimeter players better than him. THIS DEF NEEDS A SEPERATE THREAT.

Dude c'mon, it's naps. None of his crap should be taken seriously anymore.


#movingon

smith&wesson
09-01-2012, 03:05 PM
by the time he retires he will end up being top 5 all time.

bathroom_man
09-01-2012, 03:06 PM
Dude c'mon, it's naps. None of his crap should be taken seriously anymore.


#movingon

Naps had CStyle by his balls just like DoMeFavors got everyone by their balls..llooll

smith&wesson
09-01-2012, 03:08 PM
This ones are over him clearly.

Magic, Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Oscar.

So he is on a debate with Mikan,west, Baylor, Havlicek Dr J, Moses Malone, Hakeem, RObinson, Shaq, Duncan for the remaining top 10-15


as is ill take kobe over larry legend. russell is soo out dated man... who here actually saw russell play ? my father didnt even watch him play. kobe is on pace with magic imo. may even surpass him another ring and mvp.

smith&wesson
09-01-2012, 03:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFEnNB4aSRs

His fade away is :drool:

C-Style
09-01-2012, 03:49 PM
Kobe is immensely talent but in comparison to a ton of wings he kind of falls short. What makes Kobe so great is he's made the most out of his God given ability with his tireless work ethic. As far as perimeter players are concerned Tmac, Baylor, Mj, Wade, Magic, Bird, Bron, West, Oscar; had peaks as great as and in some instances better than Kobes, it's just most of them lack the longevity to even make it any argument. :shrug:

T-mac: Phil wrote in his book that he got word McGrady was fine physically, until he was asked to play defense where he used his back as an excuse. Great offensively but weak defensively.

Baylor & West: great players for there time but they were not as talented the Kobe's MJ's & Lebron's. I doubt they will be able to dominate in todays league & pace of game.

Wade: Pfft, nothing but an athletic pick n roll guard. He's nowhere near as talented offensively.

Magic & Bird: were great offensively but lacked defensive presence, If i'm correct Kobe holds his own very well statistically.

jericho
09-01-2012, 05:31 PM
T-mac: Phil wrote in his book that he got word McGrady was fine physically, until he was asked to play defense where he used his back as an excuse. Great offensively but weak defensively.

Baylor & West: great players for there time but they were not as talented the Kobe's MJ's & Lebron's. I doubt they will be able to dominate in todays league & pace of game.

Wade: Pfft, nothing but an athletic pick n roll guard. He's nowhere near as talented offensively.

Magic & Bird: were great offensively but lacked defensive presence, If i'm correct Kobe holds his own very well statistically.

just saying i dont like kobe so take this with a grain of salt lol but kobe has always been overrated in defense

JasonJohnHorn
09-01-2012, 06:30 PM
Magic & Bird: were great offensively but lacked defensive presence, If i'm correct Kobe holds his own very well statistically.

Magic and Bird were both far better rebounders, and far better play makers than Kobe. On defence, Bird and Magic both had great defensive stats (Bird averaged 1.7 steals on his career and nearly a block a game, Magic lead the league in steals twice, which Kobe has NEVER done, and average 1.9 on his career). I will admit that Bird was not the best one-on-one defender, but he was great at guarding the passing lanes. Magic could and did defend every position on the floor.

And Magic and Bird both did something Kobe has never done. They made players around them better. And that counts for a lot in my book. Magic and Bird would have never run a player as dominant as Shaq out of town because of their ego, they would have both made him more effective. Not to mention the fact that Bird and Magic made the sport as popular as it was when Jordan took over from them. The league grew by leaps and bounds because of what Bird and Magic did, and Kobe will never have that kind of impact on the game.


They were both better player makers, both better rebounders, and both better facilitators. Not to mention the fact that Bird was a far superior shooter.


And if I hear about how many rings Kobe has and how that ranks him higher I'm going to puke. He got drafted by a contender. He was lucky. If LBJ had been drafted by the Lakers instead of Kobe, they would have won earlier, and won more, and Shaq wouldn't have been run out of town.

smith&wesson
09-01-2012, 07:15 PM
Magic and Bird were both far better rebounders, and far better play makers than Kobe. On defence, Bird and Magic both had great defensive stats (Bird averaged 1.7 steals on his career and nearly a block a game, Magic lead the league in steals twice, which Kobe has NEVER done, and average 1.9 on his career). I will admit that Bird was not the best one-on-one defender, but he was great at guarding the passing lanes. Magic could and did defend every position on the floor.

And Magic and Bird both did something Kobe has never done. They made players around them better. And that counts for a lot in my book. Magic and Bird would have never run a player as dominant as Shaq out of town because of their ego, they would have both made him more effective. Not to mention the fact that Bird and Magic made the sport as popular as it was when Jordan took over from them. The league grew by leaps and bounds because of what Bird and Magic did, and Kobe will never have that kind of impact on the game.


They were both better player makers, both better rebounders, and both better facilitators. Not to mention the fact that Bird was a far superior shooter.


And if I hear about how many rings Kobe has and how that ranks him higher I'm going to puke. He got drafted by a contender. He was lucky. If LBJ had been drafted by the Lakers instead of Kobe, they would have won earlier, and won more, and Shaq wouldn't have been run out of town.

different players have different roles. while magice was able to play all positions, his primary position was pg. he was a great passer no doubt. bird was a great shooter no doubt. but you know what kobe's all around game must be mentioned here as well.

Kobe's career isnt finished. you must accept the fact that he can surpass some of these players. right now i have magic just ahead of him. but i have kobe just ahead of bird. i do beleive kobe has a chance to surpass magic if he continues to play at this level for a few more years.

also his longevity is something to be considered.

PleaseBeNice
09-01-2012, 07:16 PM
Top 15 EASILY

Hawkeye15
09-01-2012, 07:17 PM
You take Kobe over any of the guys on my list? Maybe i have a little biased towards bigmen because an elite big man impacts the game way more than an elite perimeter player, unless you can produce like jordan, and that we know kobe cant do.

Jordan
Kareen
Wilt
Russell
Shaq
Magic
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Bird

Those are my top 10, give or take. So yes, I think he is a top 10 player ever.

Hawkeye15
09-01-2012, 07:17 PM
I believe I've already answered that unless you don't consider Bird to be a perimeter player. But yes he has, quite easily actually

Sorry if I missed it before, I didn't know you had said that.

_KB24_
09-01-2012, 07:18 PM
Magic and Bird were both far better rebounders, and far better play makers than Kobe. On defence, Bird and Magic both had great defensive stats (Bird averaged 1.7 steals on his career and nearly a block a game, Magic lead the league in steals twice, which Kobe has NEVER done, and average 1.9 on his career). I will admit that Bird was not the best one-on-one defender, but he was great at guarding the passing lanes. Magic could and did defend every position on the floor.

And Magic and Bird both did something Kobe has never done. They made players around them better. And that counts for a lot in my book. Magic and Bird would have never run a player as dominant as Shaq out of town because of their ego, they would have both made him more effective. Not to mention the fact that Bird and Magic made the sport as popular as it was when Jordan took over from them. The league grew by leaps and bounds because of what Bird and Magic did, and Kobe will never have that kind of impact on the game.


They were both better player makers, both better rebounders, and both better facilitators. Not to mention the fact that Bird was a far superior shooter.


And if I hear about how many rings Kobe has and how that ranks him higher I'm going to puke. He got drafted by a contender. He was lucky. If LBJ had been drafted by the Lakers instead of Kobe, they would have won earlier, and won more, and Shaq wouldn't have been run out of town.

Stopped reading after the 1st paragraph. Magic a better defender than Kobe? :rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
09-01-2012, 07:18 PM
i think rings are overrated. I hear this a whole lot, especially recently, but i don't see how some people for example have kobe as say 9th, for discussion sake, and then say if he wins another ring or two they will move him to 5 or 6th.

Like that there doesn't make a lick of sense to me since you could basically put any top 10 player with kobe's current cast of players and similarly make them a favorite to win the finals or actually give them a better chance to win. So, yeah that makes no sense to me. For example, if you had magic ahead of kobe, kobe winning another ring doesn't make him any better than magic, because i'm 100% certain he could win with kobe's team in place of kobe.

+1

smith&wesson
09-01-2012, 07:25 PM
just saying i dont like kobe so take this with a grain of salt lol but kobe has always been overrated in defense

that is your opinion, not a fact.

let me guess its a big conspiracy and stern must have voted him in to 9 all defensive first teams & 3 all defensive second teams right ?

why cant we give credit to where its due ?

JasonJohnHorn
09-01-2012, 07:26 PM
Stopped reading after the 1st paragraph. Magic a better defender than Kobe? :rolleyes:

I didn't say Magic was a better defender, I said he'd lead the league in steals per several times which Kobe never did and that Magic could and did guard every position on the floor.

JasonJohnHorn
09-01-2012, 07:29 PM
by jasonjohnhorn

There is no reason the Lakers shouldn't have been in the finals the last two years.

5 straight finals appearances, u kidding me? if kobe went to 5 straight finals, he would rank #1 wayyyyyyyyy ahead of jordan.. but no, kobe is human

If Jordan was playing with that roster he would have won it all every year.

The Lakers had two seven-footers in a league that is short on centers, an all-star SG and some quality role players. That team should have been in the finals the last two years. Kobe underachieved with that roster. Had Magic or Bird or Jordan been on those rosters, those teams would have gone all the way.

smith&wesson
09-01-2012, 07:41 PM
I think rings are overrated. I hear this a whole lot, especially recently, but I don't see how some people for example have Kobe as say 9th, for discussion sake, and then say if he wins another ring or two they will move him to 5 or 6th.

Like that there doesn't make a lick of sense to me since you could basically put any top 10 player with Kobe's current cast of players and similarly make them a favorite to win the Finals or actually give them a better chance to win. So, yeah that makes no sense to me. For example, if you had Magic ahead of Kobe, Kobe winning another ring doesn't make him any better than Magic, because I'm 100% certain he could win with Kobe's team in place of Kobe.

ya and it goes both ways. kobe would win with their teams as well.. lets not act like most of these hof players didnt play with championship suporting casts. for the most part they all did. jordan, magic, bird, kareem, etc.. etc..they all did.

rings are not over rated. that is why these guys play the game right? they apply because were not talking about role players. were talking about guys who lead their teams or are a huge part of their teams success in winning those rings.. if karl malone or charles barkley had 4 rings and duncan had 0 how do you think it would effect their legacy's ??

if kobe does infact win more rings and or finals mvp's how exactly does that not effect his legacy ?

season mvp
finals mvp
all nba teams
all defensive teams
stats
championships
longevity

how else would you measure these players vs one another ??

he has a chance to win more ships, he has a chance to get more mvp awards. so he has a chance to build on his legacy and yes he has a chance to move up on the all time list as well because these things do factor in.

bathroom_man
09-01-2012, 07:47 PM
If Jordan was playing with that roster he would have won it all every year.

The Lakers had two seven-footers in a league that is short on centers, an all-star SG and some quality role players. That team should have been in the finals the last two years. Kobe underachieved with that roster. Had Magic or Bird or Jordan been on those rosters, those teams would have gone all the way.

um, wash up artest, gasol, & fisher? quality role players: mcbob, mcmurphy, blake? and mike brown?

dallas with dirk and bunch of vets was better
oklahoma with a superstar durant, westbrook & harden is better

smith&wesson
09-01-2012, 07:58 PM
um, wash up artest, gasol, & fisher? quality role players: mcbob, mcmurphy, blake? and mike brown?

dallas with dirk and bunch of vets was better
oklahoma with a superstar durant, westbrook & harden is better

Gasol is def more then a role player.. but i agree that artest and fisher are washed up

smith&wesson
09-01-2012, 08:06 PM
If Jordan was playing with that roster he would have won it all every year.

The Lakers had two seven-footers in a league that is short on centers, an all-star SG and some quality role players. That team should have been in the finals the last two years. Kobe underachieved with that roster. Had Magic or Bird or Jordan been on those rosters, those teams would have gone all the way.

jordan is also known to be the best player of all time so far. whats your point ? no ones debating that kobe is better then jordan.

also jordan played with some pretty dam good players too. what makes you think kobe wouldnt have won with jordans cast ?

bathroom_man
09-01-2012, 08:31 PM
Gasol is def more then a role player.. but i agree that artest and fisher are washed up

agree, gasol more a role player but hes pretty much fallen off the past 2 years.

RaiderLakersA's
09-01-2012, 10:52 PM
Why do fans go to such incredible lengths to diminish the phenomenal hallmark of sustained greatness over time? To think that at this advanced stage of his career that Kobe is still arguably a top 5-7 player in the NBA in his umpteenth season shouldn't be so casually swept under the rug. What I'm reading is almost like some would rather move the target for greatness than deign to acknowledge that the textbook definition of the term "sustained greatness" comes with a picture of Kobe Bryant attached.

I may have just missed Wilt and Russell in their heyday, but I saw all of the others. If Bird or Magic or Dr. J. or Shaq were able to sustain their peak greatness for as long as #24 has, we would be calling one of them the GOAT. And even MJ would co-sign to that. But they couldn't do it! Could. Not. Do. It. It was not in their bodies, in their hearts, in their wills. That alone puts Kobe in rare air, if we're talking honestly about the top players of all time.

This thread is for non-Kobe fans, so I will respectfully withhold where I rank Kobe Bean Bryant. But I wanted to chime in, because some of these arguments are specious and counterintuitive.

Munkeysuit
09-01-2012, 11:19 PM
I am not the biggest Kobe fan or a huge Laker fan but the guy definitely has to be up there in the rankings...I would like to say maybe top 10 all time just off his play alone. Take into consideration the guy was practically handed 3 rings from Shaquille Oneal and then could not even win a title or even an MVP award for 6 years straight, after Shaq left? Then as soon as the Lakers get Pau, he wins another 2 titles and then his first MVP award...I have always said Kobe was just along for the ride, but that was just my hater side talking.
All hater talk aside, I think he deserves some credit, checking out his stats puts him up there, I mean he definitely did not need Shaq or Pau to acquire stats like that, and he didn't need Pau to win his lone MVP award either. Dude scored 80+ points in a game, sold millions of shoes for Nike, and is the lone face of a franchise built on some of the games most famous faces...I'd say Kobe is #10 all time.

bathroom_man
09-02-2012, 12:09 AM
I am not the biggest Kobe fan or a huge Laker fan but the guy definitely has to be up there in the rankings...I would like to say maybe top 10 all time just off his play alone. Take into consideration the guy was practically handed 3 rings from Shaquille Oneal and then could not even win a title or even an MVP award for 6 years straight, after Shaq left? Then as soon as the Lakers get Pau, he wins another 2 titles and then his first MVP award...I have always said Kobe was just along for the ride, but that was just my hater side talking.
All hater talk aside, I think he deserves some credit, checking out his stats puts him up there, I mean he definitely did not need Shaq or Pau to acquire stats like that, and he didn't need Pau to win his lone MVP award either. Dude scored 80+ points in a game, sold millions of shoes for Nike, and is the lone face of a franchise built on some of the games most famous faces...I'd say Kobe is #10 all time.

handed 3 rings by Shaq? lol. same thing can be said about Shaq. everybody knows u cant do alone.

and to lose in the 1st rounds with:
smush parker
kwame brown
brian cook
chris mihm
washup aaron mckie
radmanovic
luke walton
sasha vuja
jordan farmer
mo evans
ronny turiaf
wash up jim jackson
slava meda
laron profit
young bynum

is pretty damn good

only good players were odom, deven george and caron butler.. lol

bathroom_man
09-02-2012, 12:13 AM
my top 10:

1. Jordan
2. magic
3. kareem
4. wilt
5. russell
6. kobe
7. shaq
8. lebron
9. bird
10. malone, duncan, barkely, oscar, hakeem

C-Style
09-02-2012, 12:27 AM
just saying i dont like kobe so take this with a grain of salt lol but kobe has always been overrated in defense

will do, but you gotta be kidding if u don't think Kobe was GREAT defensively in 2000-04.

rsweene
09-02-2012, 01:12 AM
WOW, 2nd most points in one game, 5(+) rings, Who had a higher peak(s).

HE IS A GUARD. scoring like this!! Think is Shaq had Kobe's tenacity. shhhiiiittteee

ichitownclowni
09-02-2012, 01:33 AM
top 10 if not top 5

naps
09-02-2012, 02:10 AM
Dude c'mon, it's naps. None of his crap should be taken seriously anymore.


#movingon

Says the guy that puts #Kobesystem, "You're Welcome", and a smiley on 95% of his posts regardless of the thread topic. Mature post by name calling :rolleyes: If my posts bother your internal system so much then put me on ignore list. Feel better.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-02-2012, 03:52 AM
Says the guy that puts #Kobesystem, "You're Welcome", and a smiley on 95% of his posts regardless of the thread topic. Mature post by name calling :rolleyes: If my posts bother your internal system so much then put me on ignore list. Feel better.

Name calling? Where? Care to point it out?

meadowlarklemon
09-02-2012, 04:48 AM
So I can only defend someone when I'm his fan? Why not just use logic, reasoning, fairness, and common sense?

Logical fallacy: hasty generalization.

I've added you to the ignore list, have a great day.

this is basketball, not philosophy 101..........logic? reasoning? common sense? :laugh:

_KB24_
09-02-2012, 06:37 AM
I didn't say Magic was a better defender, I said he'd lead the league in steals per several times which Kobe never did and that Magic could and did guard every position on the floor.

Led the league twice in steals and the second point is irrelevant.Whats good if you can guard all 5 positions when your horrible at it? Wouldn't call him a liability on defense but he was easily guarding the worst player on the floor with that starting 5. Kobe had the responsibility of guarding the best player on the opposing team night in and night out during his prime.

Two-3
09-02-2012, 06:53 AM
Top 15 forsure. Poll would have been nice.

Andrew32
09-02-2012, 07:04 AM
Used to be a big fan of him... now neutral.

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Wilt
10. Kobe

I have him at 10.
The highest he can possibly get is #6 but I doubt he gets higher then #7.

jericho
09-02-2012, 07:47 AM
just saying i dont like kobe so take this with a grain of salt lol but kobe has always been overrated in defense

that is your opinion, not a fact.

let me guess its a big conspiracy and stern must have voted him in to 9 all defensive first teams & 3 all defensive second teams right ?

why cant we give credit to where its due ?

First off stern doesn't vote for this the media and coaches do and everybody knows that out of those 9 at least seven of them there were more deserving players that have gotten overlooked thanks to Kobe's past accomplishments
Oh also saying that Kobe has 9 firsts and 3 seconds is like saying that the lakers beat the kings fair and square back in 02 :P

jericho
09-02-2012, 07:49 AM
just saying i dont like kobe so take this with a grain of salt lol but kobe has always been overrated in defense

that is your opinion, not a fact.

let me guess its a big conspiracy and stern must have voted him in to 9 all defensive first teams & 3 all defensive second teams right ?

why cant we give credit to where its due ?

I'll give him credit in o even tho he a ball hog but in d naw

avengedchaos5
09-02-2012, 09:08 AM
around 12- 15th there are so many all time greats. yes id put shaq ahead of him

Heatcheck
09-02-2012, 11:21 AM
Led the league twice in steals and the second point is irrelevant.Whats good if you can guard all 5 positions when your horrible at it? Wouldn't call him a liability on defense but he was easily guarding the worst player on the floor with that starting 5. Kobe had the responsibility of guarding the best player on the opposing team night in and night out during his prime.

thats ********, i dont want to get into the name calling, but thats a load of crap, magic was far from a liability on defense, he was BETTER than kobe both perimeter d and getting steals (second alltime). I dont know what games you saw of magic to come to that conclusion.

the only thing all defensive team awards do is compare you to the rest of the league at the time, and there has definetly been a shortage of quality perimeter defenders in the 2000s.

Vinylman
09-02-2012, 12:24 PM
kobe didnt play much his first 2 seasons, the dude sucks but after that, forget about it... so shaq started at 21/22. kobe started at 20/21.. minimal differences

reading comprehension problems... the downfall of PSD

bathroom_man
09-02-2012, 01:44 PM
reading comprehension problems... the downfall of PSD

u totally miss what im saying. i was referring to the other guy

your reading comprehening is bad as mine, so i wouldnt be talking.

THE MTL
09-02-2012, 01:57 PM
Definitely top 10 of all time. Besides, MJ at #1.....u really cant put 2-10 in a specific order in my opinion.

SteBO
09-02-2012, 02:18 PM
around 12- 15th there are so many all time greats. yes id put shaq ahead of him
Really? I'm curious as to why you would put Shaq ahead Kobe at this point. I've honestly never come across any NBA fan that would do so, so I really am interested in your reasoning.

_KB24_
09-02-2012, 03:30 PM
thats ********, i dont want to get into the name calling, but thats a load of crap, magic was far from a liability on defense, he was BETTER than kobe both perimeter d and getting steals (second alltime). I dont know what games you saw of magic to come to that conclusion.

the only thing all defensive team awards do is compare you to the rest of the league at the time, and there has definetly been a shortage of quality perimeter defenders in the 2000s.

You must be outright insane to think that. Magic would get eaten alive by smaller quick PGs back then and I can't even begin to picture the onslaught guys like Westbrook and Rose would plow on him. He didn't even guard the opposing teams best perimeter player so how could you even say that? Cooper and Scott had the responsibility of that. He was always looking for the fast break which translates to his steal stats but he gambled A LOT, not necessarily great for D.

beliges
09-02-2012, 03:42 PM
Heres the thing about subjective questions like this, you have to always expect people will make comments based on their own personal biases. You have to judge these players on what they were able to accomplish. Kobe was the greatest winner of his era and generation. He dominated his era moreso than any other player, in terms of sheer success and winning. He, along with Magic and MJ, is the only player to lead a team to 5 titles in the modern era of the NBA. Some people hate him for their own justifiable reasons while others love him beyond comprehension. But the fact remains, he is without a doubt either the 2nd or 3rd best perimeter player to ever play the game of basketball. I think hes right there with Magic and its difficult to decipher between the two right now. However, with that said, it is clear, at least to me, that once he hangs them up, his career achievements will certainly put him right above Magic, and just under MJ. He truly was and is remarkable.

amos1er
09-02-2012, 04:35 PM
2nd best perimeter player ever, the only guys I would have ahead of him are bigs.

MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Shaq
Dream
Duncan

Those 6 are set in stone for me.

Then its the Kobe, Magic, Bird, Moses, West and Russell's of the world

I mostly agree. Don't think that Shaq should be higher than Bird and Magic though. My criteria for judging includes work ethic, therefore as dominant as Shaq was in his prime, I would have to give the nod to Larry and Magic.

It's funny that even Cronz can admit Kobe is a top ten, yet I see so many other haters making ridiculous claims, saying he is only a top 15 and saying that Lebron is already ahead of him.

One question for you though. What kind of numbers do you think that Wilt would put up now a days?

jericho
09-02-2012, 04:40 PM
Heres the thing about subjective questions like this, you have to always expect people will make comments based on their own personal biases. You have to judge these players on what they were able to accomplish. Kobe was the greatest winner of his era and generation. He dominated his era moreso than any other player, in terms of sheer success and winning. He, along with Magic and MJ, is the only player to lead a team to 5 titles in the modern era of the NBA. Some people hate him for their own justifiable reasons while others love him beyond comprehension. But the fact remains, he is without a doubt either the 2nd or 3rd best perimeter player to ever play the game of basketball. I think hes right there with Magic and its difficult to decipher between the two right now. However, with that said, it is clear, at least to me, that once he hangs them up, his career achievements will certainly put him right above Magic, and just under MJ. He truly was and is remarkable.

actually he only led them to 2 tittles the other 3 shaq led them with the exception of the 1 that they stole from the kings :p

NBAfan4life
09-02-2012, 04:46 PM
Jordan
Kareen
Wilt
Russell
Shaq
Magic
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Bird

Those are my top 10, give or take. So yes, I think he is a top 10 player ever.

This is about as objective as it gets. For Hawkeye to put Kobe ahead of Bird you really cannot say that Hawkeye is a Kobe hater who isn't objective.

Blue_Ninja
09-02-2012, 04:49 PM
Top 10, and for the reason why he is not top 5?

Shaq

meadowlarklemon
09-03-2012, 12:38 AM
Heres the thing about subjective questions like this, you have to always expect people will make comments based on their own personal biases. You have to judge these players on what they were able to accomplish. Kobe was the greatest winner of his era and generation. He dominated his era moreso than any other player, in terms of sheer success and winning. He, along with Magic and MJ, is the only player to lead a team to 5 titles in the modern era of the NBA. Some people hate him for their own justifiable reasons while others love him beyond comprehension. But the fact remains, he is without a doubt either the 2nd or 3rd best perimeter player to ever play the game of basketball. I think hes right there with Magic and its difficult to decipher between the two right now. However, with that said, it is clear, at least to me, that once he hangs them up, his career achievements will certainly put him right above Magic, and just under MJ. He truly was and is remarkable.

subjectivity always wins when it comes to an argument about Kobe. Why? Because kobe fans always ignore the fact that he only shoots 45% from the field whereas most other greats shoot around 50%. So, the argument turns into "well, bynum shoots over 50, so is he a top ten?"

there are certain, unwritten and undocumented things in basketball that play a role. Like, "does he make the players around him better?" "is he a motivator?" "is he a coachable player?" These things are ignored by Kobe fans.

Hellcrooner
09-03-2012, 12:49 AM
Heres the thing about subjective questions like this, you have to always expect people will make comments based on their own personal biases. You have to judge these players on what they were able to accomplish. Kobe was the greatest winner of his era and generation. He dominated his era moreso than any other player, in terms of sheer success and winning. He, along with Magic and MJ, is the only player to lead a team to 5 titles in the modern era of the NBA. Some people hate him for their own justifiable reasons while others love him beyond comprehension. But the fact remains, he is without a doubt either the 2nd or 3rd best perimeter player to ever play the game of basketball. I think hes right there with Magic and its difficult to decipher between the two right now. However, with that said, it is clear, at least to me, that once he hangs them up, his career achievements will certainly put him right above Magic, and just under MJ. He truly was and is remarkable.

except he didnt LEAD for the 5 of them

meadowlarklemon
09-03-2012, 01:08 AM
except he didnt LEAD for the 5 of them

yeah, that too

b@llhog24
09-03-2012, 01:11 AM
This is about as objective as it gets. For Hawkeye to put Kobe ahead of Bird you really cannot say that Hawkeye is a Kobe hater who isn't objective.

The list isn't in order.

Hawkeye15
09-03-2012, 01:40 AM
This is about as objective as it gets. For Hawkeye to put Kobe ahead of Bird you really cannot say that Hawkeye is a Kobe hater who isn't objective.

I will always be viewed as a Kobe hater by most Laker fans. Is what it is.

basketfan4life
09-03-2012, 02:33 AM
I will always be viewed as a Kobe hater by most Laker fans. Is what it is.

Well my friend, you openly admitting Kobe is the player that you hate most all time in several occasions doesn't help your case.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-03-2012, 03:01 AM
I will always be viewed as a Kobe hater by most Laker fans. Is what it is.

I have been here for less than a yr, and u've never come across a Kobe hater to me.

BKdoubleStacker
09-03-2012, 03:17 AM
Magic and Bird were both far better rebounders, and far better play makers than Kobe. On defence, Bird and Magic both had great defensive stats (Bird averaged 1.7 steals on his career and nearly a block a game, Magic lead the league in steals twice, which Kobe has NEVER done, and average 1.9 on his career). I will admit that Bird was not the best one-on-one defender, but he was great at guarding the passing lanes. Magic could and did defend every position on the floor.

And Magic and Bird both did something Kobe has never done. They made players around them better. And that counts for a lot in my book. Magic and Bird would have never run a player as dominant as Shaq out of town because of their ego, they would have both made him more effective. Not to mention the fact that Bird and Magic made the sport as popular as it was when Jordan took over from them. The league grew by leaps and bounds because of what Bird and Magic did, and Kobe will never have that kind of impact on the game.


They were both better player makers, both better rebounders, and both better facilitators. Not to mention the fact that Bird was a far superior shooter.


And if I hear about how many rings Kobe has and how that ranks him higher I'm going to puke. He got drafted by a contender. He was lucky. If LBJ had been drafted by the Lakers instead of Kobe, they would have won earlier, and won more, and Shaq wouldn't have been run out of town.

since when are steals and blocks a barometer for defense?

I guess iverson was a great defender eh?

Hawkeye15
09-03-2012, 03:18 AM
Well my friend, you openly admitting Kobe is the player that you hate most all time in several occasions doesn't help your case.

And that changes my evaluation of him how again? Sorry, some of us can actually control emotions when making decisions.

basketfan4life
09-03-2012, 04:37 AM
And that changes my evaluation of him how again? Sorry, some of us can actually control emotions when making decisions.

Never said it changes your evolution. You are quite objective honestly, when ranking him and everything. It's just you can't change people think that you are a Kobe hater, because you are a Kobe hater who openly admits it.

LBJ6
09-03-2012, 07:01 AM
Top 21

meadowlarklemon
09-03-2012, 08:46 AM
i really think it's hard to compare players on an overall level. it has to be done position by position. even the, it depends on the system and what the team is asking that player to do.

when all is said and done, i think Kobe is the second best shooting guard of all-time. On an overall basis, he probably ranks tenth

meadowlarklemon
09-03-2012, 08:48 AM
and that's pretty good considering he only shoots 45% from the field. his defense and commitment to winning make up for it

_KB24_
09-03-2012, 02:54 PM
Never said it changes your evolution. You are quite objective honestly, when ranking him and everything. It's just you can't change people think that you are a Kobe hater, because you are a Kobe hater who openly admits it.

Bingo was his name-o. :rimshot:

Chronz
09-03-2012, 04:53 PM
just saying i dont like kobe so take this with a grain of salt lol but kobe has always been overrated in defense

that is your opinion, not a fact.

let me guess its a big conspiracy and stern must have voted him in to 9 all defensive first teams & 3 all defensive second teams right ?

why cant we give credit to where its due ?
Some the coaches probably didn't even vote for, some were egregious if they did, and others I bet were mandated by the league. I mean Kobe was selected this year without even having the most votes.

Chronz
09-03-2012, 05:00 PM
2nd best perimeter player ever, the only guys I would have ahead of him are bigs.

MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Shaq
Dream
Duncan

Those 6 are set in stone for me.

Then its the Kobe, Magic, Bird, Moses, West and Russell's of the world

I mostly agree. Don't think that Shaq should be higher than Bird and Magic though. My criteria for judging includes work ethic, therefore as dominant as Shaq was in his prime, I would have to give the nod to Larry and Magic.

It's funny that even Cronz can admit Kobe is a top ten, yet I see so many other haters making ridiculous claims, saying he is only a top 15 and saying that Lebron is already ahead of him.

One question for you though. What kind of numbers do you think that Wilt would put up now a days?
Thats ridiculous, why would I care about how hard the guy worked if hes still the better basketball player? And what work ethic do you know of Bird/Magic? Bird took even worse care of his body and didn't last anywhere near as long as Shaq, which for all the **** he takes somehow lasted long enough to rack up the 2nd most all-nba selections of all-time.

And what do you mean "even chronz"? Other haters would imply that I'm among them, which is definitely untrue but is the expected argument I suppose.

amos1er
09-03-2012, 10:00 PM
Thats ridiculous, why would I care about how hard the guy worked if hes still the better basketball player? And what work ethic do you know of Bird/Magic? Bird took even worse care of his body and didn't last anywhere near as long as Shaq, which for all the **** he takes somehow lasted long enough to rack up the 2nd most all-nba selections of all-time.

And what do you mean "even chronz"? Other haters would imply that I'm among them, which is definitely untrue but is the expected argument I suppose.

Noticed that you're list of the top six only includes great centers and MJ of course. It could be argued that you are bias against perimeter players as the only one you seem to give props to is MJ. Statistically bigs will always be at an advantage, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are the better and more accomplished players.

Shaq relied on his size and physical advantage. He didn't possess a skill set that compared to Magic or Bird. Both were harder workers and would never be as out of shape as Shaq had been in the past. Nor would they elect to have a toe surgery right before the start of a season.

Just because Bird's body broke down prematurely and Shaq's didn't, doesn't mean that he didn't work his *** off at being the best. He just didn't happen win the genetic lottery that Shaq and so many other all time greats did. Bird was known for going above and beyond when it came to preparation. http://hoopthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/05/larry-bird-work-ethic.html


Veterans and rookies alike knew Bird had been obsessed with practice when he was with the Celtics, often showing up hours early so he could work on every face of his game. Other NBA coaches had used Bird as an example of a superb work ethics. One brought his team to Boston Garden early to see number 33 in action. To his amazement, Larry wasn't on the court. Embarrassed, the coach headed for the sidelines before looking up to see Bird running on the track. He was working on his conditioning that day.

As well as his shooting. While most players waltzed into the locker room the required 90 minutes before game time, Bird has been on the floor by at least 6:00, more than two hours before tip-off. In the loneliness of Boston Garden, with only attendants and a few Celtics season ticket holders present, Bird shot more than 300 practice shots. He'd start with 6 to 10 free throws, move out on the court a bit, and then start firing away at a comfortable pace as comrade Joe Qatato hit him with perfect passes. Then the "Parquet Picasso," as he was dubbed, would speed up the routine and by the end of the workout throw up rapid-fire shots, many featuring the Bird "drop back a step" maneuver that guaranteed him an opening from every angle. "I really don't count my shots," Bird said. "I just shoot until I feel good."

None of this or even close could be said about Shaq.

I'm not saying that just because someone works harder means their better either, I'm just saying that Shaq's work ethic wasn't even in the same universe as Birds or Magic's, and when you compare accomplishments, both Bird and Magic could easily be ranked higher than Shaq. Magic easily has the better resume and Bird's is comparable. With Bird and Shaq being so even accomplishment wise, its fair to use their work ethic as a tie breaker...especially when Bird's is vastly superior.

beliges
09-03-2012, 10:12 PM
subjectivity always wins when it comes to an argument about Kobe. Why? Because kobe fans always ignore the fact that he only shoots 45% from the field whereas most other greats shoot around 50%. So, the argument turns into "well, bynum shoots over 50, so is he a top ten?"

there are certain, unwritten and undocumented things in basketball that play a role. Like, "does he make the players around him better?" "is he a motivator?" "is he a coachable player?" These things are ignored by Kobe fans.

No, the argument turns into, "well, he is the most winningest player of his era and generation." Which is a valid argument. I mean, there were players that shot at a higher rate than him but could never lead their teams to deep playoff runs. Shooting a high % is an extremely tiny aspect of being great.

Chronz
09-03-2012, 10:16 PM
Thats ridiculous, why would I care about how hard the guy worked if hes still the better basketball player? And what work ethic do you know of Bird/Magic? Bird took even worse care of his body and didn't last anywhere near as long as Shaq, which for all the **** he takes somehow lasted long enough to rack up the 2nd most all-nba selections of all-time.

And what do you mean "even chronz"? Other haters would imply that I'm among them, which is definitely untrue but is the expected argument I suppose.

Noticed that you're list of the top six only includes great centers and MJ of course. It could be argued that you are bias against perimeter players as the only one you seem to give props to is MJ. Statistically bigs will always be at an advantage, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are the better and more accomplished players.

Shaq relied on his size and physical advantage. He didn't possess a skill set that compared to Magic or Bird. Both were harder workers and would never be as out of shape as Shaq had been in the past. Nor would they elect to have a toe surgery right before the start of a season.

Just because Bird's body broke down prematurely and Shaq's didn't, doesn't mean that he didn't work his *** off at being the best. He just didn't happen win the genetic lottery that Shaq and so many other all time greats did. Bird was known for going above and beyond when it came to preparation. http://hoopthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/05/larry-bird-work-ethic.html


Veterans and rookies alike knew Bird had been obsessed with practice when he was with the Celtics, often showing up hours early so he could work on every face of his game. Other NBA coaches had used Bird as an example of a superb work ethics. One brought his team to Boston Garden early to see number 33 in action. To his amazement, Larry wasn't on the court. Embarrassed, the coach headed for the sidelines before looking up to see Bird running on the track. He was working on his conditioning that day.

As well as his shooting. While most players waltzed into the locker room the required 90 minutes before game time, Bird has been on the floor by at least 6:00, more than two hours before tip-off. In the loneliness of Boston Garden, with only attendants and a few Celtics season ticket holders present, Bird shot more than 300 practice shots. He'd start with 6 to 10 free throws, move out on the court a bit, and then start firing away at a comfortable pace as comrade Joe Qatato hit him with perfect passes. Then the "Parquet Picasso," as he was dubbed, would speed up the routine and by the end of the workout throw up rapid-fire shots, many featuring the Bird "drop back a step" maneuver that guaranteed him an opening from every angle. "I really don't count my shots," Bird said. "I just shoot until I feel good."

None of this or even close could be said about Shaq.

I'm not saying that just because someone works harder means their better either, I'm just saying that Shaq's work ethic wasn't even in the same universe as Birds or Magic's, and when you compare accomplishments, both Bird and Magic could easily be ranked higher than Shaq. Magic easily has the better resume and Bird's is comparable. With Bird and Shaq being so even accomplishment wise, its fair to use their work ethic as a tie breaker...especially when Bird's is vastly superior.
No bias just goin with the superior impact. And again why the **** would I care how hard the guy worked if he was still the lesser player?
And again Bird took worse care of his body than Shaq did. How come your article doesn't mention how Bird never hit the weights and only took his body seriously after his injury and how much more explosive he was, one of the biggest what if Boston homer Bill Simmons pondered was how much better could Bird have been if he trained hard from day 1. The Boston crowd wouldn't have been surprised when he threw down a hard dunk his first game back thats for sure.

And its hilarious how you mention Shaqs toe without mentioning the fact that he chose the operation that would get him on the court sooner rather than take the route that would have been best for his longevity and health. Which is a pretty big deal considering how badly the Lakers were floundering when Kobe was all by his lonesome

beliges
09-03-2012, 10:20 PM
except he didnt LEAD for the 5 of them

Except he was a leader for 5 championship teams. Nobody is denying that he had Shaq. Much the same way Magic had Kareem. But surely Magic was a leader on those 5 Lakers teams, just like Kareem was as well.

You cannot take away the man's accomplishments by saying, "well Shaq." Especially when Shaq was unable to win anything until teaming up with Kobe. And furthermore, Kobe proved he could be more successful without Shaq than Shaq could be without Kobe. Its funny how people always try to throw Shaq in an argument with Kobe as if to diminish his greatness. The irony in that flawed argument, as pointed above, is Kobe was more successful without Shaq than Shaq ever was without Kobe.

If you look at a situation that is eerily similar in Magic and Kareem, Magic was unable to win anything without Kareem while Kareem had proven he could win without Magic. However, Magic did lead his team to 5 rings so that argument becomes moot. But for some reason, people like yourself here, tend to reach very very far to try to diminish Kobe's accomplishments. I really dont understand why people make up unprecedented excuses to dismiss Kobe's accomplishments. I mean, the fact will forever remain that he was the most dominant player of his era in terms of winning, and nobody will be able to take that away from him. And what makes that ever more impressive is that he had two top 10 guys (Shaq and Duncan) he competed against and one top 20 guy (KG) he has to beat out.

As I have pointed out in the past, there are not more than 5 guys that have played in this league that have a better resume and that have enjoyed better success as a basketball player than Kobe has.

Chronz
09-03-2012, 10:36 PM
except he didnt LEAD for the 5 of them

Except he was a leader for 5 championship teams. Nobody is denying that he had Shaq. Much the same way Magic had Kareem. But surely Magic was a leader on those 5 Lakers teams, just like Kareem was as well.

You cannot take away the man's accomplishments by saying, "well Shaq." Especially when Shaq was unable to win anything until teaming up with Kobe. And furthermore, Kobe proved he could be more successful without Shaq than Shaq could be without Kobe. Its funny how people always try to throw Shaq in an argument with Kobe as if to diminish his greatness. The irony in that flawed argument, as pointed above, is Kobe was more successful without Shaq than Shaq ever was without Kobe.

If you look at a situation that is eerily similar in Magic and Kareem, Magic was unable to win anything without Kareem while Kareem had proven he could win without Magic. However, Magic did lead his team to 5 rings so that argument becomes moot. But for some reason, people like yourself here, tend to reach very very far to try to diminish Kobe's accomplishments. I really dont understand why people make up unprecedented excuses to dismiss Kobe's accomplishments. I mean, the fact will forever remain that he was the most dominant player of his era in terms of winning, and nobody will be able to take that away from him. And what makes that ever more impressive is that he had two top 10 guys (Shaq and Duncan) he competed against and one top 20 guy (KG) he has to beat out.

As I have pointed out in the past, there are not more than 5 guys that have played in this league that have a better resume and that have enjoyed better success as a basketball player than Kobe has.
His point remains, Shaq had the greater influence on the outcome of the game, thus the Lakers could only compete if they had Shaq while they were a middling team with just Kobes contributions. These things matter when discussing winning, otherwise lots of inferior players would be ranked ahead of the ringless.

Mave1002
09-03-2012, 10:40 PM
PSD's Top 50 List

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'neal
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan

Now tell me I shouldnt be proud to be a Lakers fan.

amos1er
09-03-2012, 10:44 PM
No bias just goin with the superior impact. And again why the **** would I care how hard the guy worked if he was still the lesser player?

When it comes to superior impact or dominance as criteria, Shaq would be the GOAT next to Jordan. But since thats not the only criteria, he isn't. How is Bird the lesser player? Here is an article ranking the top ten of all time. They have Bird at 5 and Shaq at 7. They even have Bird over Wilt.


5) Larry Bird - Boston Celtics - 1979 - 1992

Career accomplishments:

- basketball Hall of Fame
- member of three NBA championship teams
- tenth all-time in free throw % in NBA history
- three-time NBA MVP
- NBA Rookie of the Year
- two-time NBA Finals MVP
- 10-time All-NBA selection
- 12-time NBA All-Star
- NBA All-Rookie Team
- three-time NBA All-Defensive Team selection

"Perhaps the most unique package of size, skills and average athletic ability (compared to other NBA players - not compared to mere mortals like ourselves) we will ever see on a NBA court." - Jeff Fox

"The Legend. Just imagine how much BETTER he could have been if he was athletic." - College Wolf

"You can't talk about Magic Johnson without talking about Larry Bird. Bird was a supreme competitor and master scorer. He seemed able to do just about whatever he wanted on the floor with a basketball and he always had the hunger to do more. Few players in league history had the same passion for the game that Bird had." - Philip

"Blessed with natural ability; fierce determination and the desire to make you earn everything you got on the court. A great three-point shooter, Bird could hit a game winner from the bleachers and possessed an icy calm demeanour. Bird’s Celtics were the antithesis of Showtime." - brumbygg

"People talk of MJ's determination, Kobe's passion... but Bird was on a par with them. The only difference was that whilst they ran hot, Bird's fury burnt cold. Guy wouldn't give an inch. Bird took each game on a personal level, and played every play as if opposition were an affront - he was a ferocious competitor." - Don

7) Shaquille O'Neal- Orlando Magic, Los Angeles Lakers, Miami Heat, Cleveland Cavaliers, Boston Celtics - 1992 - 2011

Career accomplishments:
- member of four NBA championship teams
- fifth all-time in field goals made in NBA history
- second all-time in field goal % in NBA history
- third all-time in free throws attempted in NBA history
- sixth all-time in offensive rebounds in NBA history
- seventh all-time in defensive rebounds in NBA history
- seventh all-time in blocks in NBA history
- fifth all-time in points in NBA history
- 15-time NBA All-Star
- three-time NBA Finals MVP
- one-time NBA MVP
- 14-time All-NBA selection
- three-time NBA All-Defensive Team selection
- NBA Rookie of the Year
- NBA All-Rookie Team


"There will always be a special place for him on any list like this." - College Wolf

"When you get the league to change its rules, you know you have made a big impact on the game. The NBA brought back zone defenses because teams simply could not handle O'Neal's massive size and agility. When motivated, Shaq was as good as any center the league has ever seen. He was so big, defenders almost had to gravitate toward him to challenge him. And that likely would not work. O'Neal was one of the big matchup nightmares in league history." - Philip

"The man of steel; an unstoppable force; scared of only one thing – the free throw line. If Shaq had cared enough to work on that part of his game and was able to park his ego at the door he would have been much higher up this list." - brumbygg

"Shaq... I can never think of his place within history without indulging in a bit of "what if...?" What if he tried harder during the off-seasons? What if he had the drive of Kobe or MJ? Well... quite simply he wouldn't be Shaq any more I guess. The Big Fella, biggest on this list, both literally and figuratively speaking." - Don

2) Magic Johnson - Los Angeles Lakers - 1979 - 1991, 1996

Career accomplishments:

- basketball Hall of Fame
- member of five NBA championship teams
- fourth all-time in assists in NBA history
- first all-time in assists per game in NBA history
- 12-time NBA All-Star
- three-time NBA Finals MVP
- three-time NBA MVP
- NBA All-Rookie Team
- 10-time All-NBA selection

"Magic Johnson was supposed to be a trailblazer, pointing the way to the future of the NBA where players his size would run the point. Until we all realized that there never will be another Magic Johnson - he was a one-off." - Jeff Fox

"There aren't many players that displayed the versatility and skill that Johnson had. And he did it all with a childish enthusiasm and excitement that endeared him to fans everywhere (yes, even Boston... maybe). Johnson had the ability to play every position and had an incredible grasp on how to manage his team and keep his teammates involved. He embodied Showtime and was what made the Lakers truly great in the 1980s." - Philip

"The best passer of the ball I have ever seen. A 6-foot 10-inch PG.... almost impossible to guard. Magic even played at center when the Lakers needed him there. No NBA conversation in the 80s was complete without comparing Magic and Larry Bird. Alex Schulz on the Bleacher Report wrote this about Magic in 2010 - “He’s LeBron James plus four inches and a whole bunch of championships, which is why James has lots of work to do if he wants to be included in a top 10 conversation."" - brumbygg

"Amazing, amazing player. No-one made the game look more effortless than Magic, no-one enjoyed the game more than he did. And as a Laker fan, it's tough. I think that Kareem's been grossly underrated as a player, and a large part of that is Magic. Both should be appreciated - Magic is, Kareem is not (it's kinda weird - being a Laker fan in this position, but I'm not ripping on Magic, just bemoaning the lack of appreciation for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar). The war he waged with Larry Bird was incredible, and their battles lifted the Laker/Celtics rivalry to new levels. Do yourself a favour and read When the Game Was Ours."- Don

The way I see it, Shaq only has him beat in longevity. Bird might have won 5 rings if not for the Lakers. Shaq never had to play against the competition that Bird did. Pound for Pound, Bird is the clear winner. Magic's resume dwarfs Shaq's.



And again Bird took worse care of his body than Shaq did.

Thats you're opinion. Extremely difficult to prove that especially considering how out of Shape Shaq would show up to training camps. I also never said that Bird had better conditioning, just better work ethic which my article proved.


How come your article doesn't mention how Bird never hit the weights and only took his body seriously after his injury and how much more explosive he was, one of the biggest what if Boston homer Bill Simmons pondered was how much better could Bird have been if he trained hard from day 1. The Boston crowd wouldn't have been surprised when he threw down a hard dunk his first game back thats for sure.

Again, I didn't mention conditioning, only work ethic which accounts for a lot more IMO.


And its hilarious how you mention Shaqs toe without mentioning the fact that he chose the operation that would get him on the court sooner rather than take the route that would have been best for his longevity and health. Which is a pretty big deal considering how badly the Lakers were floundering when Kobe was all by his lonesome

He could have been on the court a lot sooner if he had elected to have the surgery earlier in the offseason instead of at the end of summer.

meadowlarklemon
09-04-2012, 12:58 AM
No, the argument turns into, "well, he is the most winningest player of his era and generation." Which is a valid argument. I mean, there were players that shot at a higher rate than him but could never lead their teams to deep playoff runs. Shooting a high % is an extremely tiny aspect of being great.

but isn't winning games awfully subjective since games are refereed through the use of human judgement? you could say he's the most winningest and that alone might be a fact. but it is also a fact that most of his damage comes at the free throw line, which is usually based on a judgement call by the refs. there is ALWAYS sujectivity to be considered within every fact. so, your opinion will always boil down to just that.....an opinion.

and for a "shooting" guard, i think shooting percentage is quite a revealing stat on how well one shoots the ball. Jordan shot 50%, at least.

dh144498
09-04-2012, 10:39 AM
Kobe is not in my top ten. Top twenty likely. I have a lot of centers in my top ten though, so I'm a little biased toward big men because of the rebounding numbers and defence that goes along with their scoring. And I got Duncan over Kobe by a logn shot. Kobe isn't even in the same conversation with Duncan in my book. I would agree that Kobe is perhaps a little more talented, and certainly as hard a worker as Duncan, but Duncan's approach to the game and maturity makes his impact so much bigger than Kobe's. If it had been Shaq and Duncan instead of Shaq and Kobe, Shaq would have retired in LA and they'd have won 6 in a row easily.

dafuq? so you have like 8 other centers beside Russell, wilt, shaq, kareem, and possibly duncan and hakeem ahead of kobe?

dh144498
09-04-2012, 10:41 AM
this is basketball, not philosophy 101..........logic? reasoning? common sense? :laugh:

opinions, such as ranking players on the all time list, have to do with reasoning, logic, and, believe it or not, common sense, silly.

dh144498
09-04-2012, 10:43 AM
subjectivity always wins when it comes to an argument about Kobe. Why? Because kobe fans always ignore the fact that he only shoots 45% from the field whereas most other greats shoot around 50%. So, the argument turns into "well, bynum shoots over 50, so is he a top ten?"

there are certain, unwritten and undocumented things in basketball that play a role. Like, "does he make the players around him better?" "is he a motivator?" "is he a coachable player?" These things are ignored by Kobe fans.

what about the fact that the non-kobe activists always use the FG% as a fact and not use anything else?

Chronz
09-04-2012, 11:49 AM
When it comes to superior impact or dominance as criteria, Shaq would be the GOAT next to Jordan. But since thats not the only criteria, he isn't.
Thats what makes this such a landslide victory for Shaq. He has both the superior impact and the superior longevity.



How is Bird the lesser player? Here is an article ranking the top ten of all time. They have Bird at 5 and Shaq at 7. They even have Bird over Wilt.

Im suppose to care why?



The way I see it, Shaq only has him beat in longevity.
You just admitted he has him beat in impact/dominance as well. Your post has already contradicted itself and its just begun. Cant wait to see what else you pull out of your ***.



Bird might have won 5 rings if not for the Lakers.
LMFAO, Bird might have won alot more than that if he wasnt shut down in so many playoff series against a plethora of teams. Oh well, too bad he couldnt keep his wits about him and found himself getting into bar room brawls while in the playoffs.


Shaq never had to play against the competition that Bird did.
Shaq had to play against superior defenses and still never got locked down to the degree Bird did in his prime. Its honestly quite embarrassing to think about it. Its the reason why Bird doesnt stand a chance next to Kobe. Kobe faced superior defenses and his productive loss was within the expected threshold.


Pound for Pound, Bird is the clear winner. Magic's resume dwarfs Shaq's.
Pound for pound? Well then where is Mugsey Bogues on the All-Time rankings? Tiny Nate and AI are pound for pound some of the greatest ever, doesnt mean ****. Magic is a better argument than Bird but I still take the big fella. I have trouble deciding between Magic and Kobe tho.




Thats you're opinion.
Yes, the point Im making is that you can still be a superior player despite lesser work ethic. And in a conversation against Bird, you need actual basketball related argument to prove his superiority above a guy who was more dominant and lasted MUCH longer.


Extremely difficult to prove that especially considering how out of Shape Shaq would show up to training camps.
Its actually pretty simple when all objective evidence backs me while you have to rely on subjective arguments like, work ethic whilst ignoring actual on court results. Bird was a hard worker, too bad he wasnt the better player.


I also never said that Bird had better conditioning, just better work ethic which my article proved.
Again, I didn't mention conditioning, only work ethic which accounts for a lot more IMO.
Maybe, but it weakens your argument, and no matter what, on the court ability still matters more.

Lets put it this way, Kobe has a superior work ethic than Larry Bird, and yet none of that prevented the Lakers from benefiting more from Shaq's presence than his. So why the **** would I care if Bird worked on his jumper more if he didnt last as long as Shaq anyways AND he was never as dominant, AND got locked down to a degree that Prime Shaq never did while facing superior defenses?




He could have been on the court a lot sooner if he had elected to have the surgery earlier in the offseason instead of at the end of summer.
He couldve been out alot longer if he elected to take the route that was best for his career, its called weighing your options and getting different medical opinions. Doesnt change the fact that Shaq put the Lakers ahead of his own career, and if he hadnt done that the Lakers would have been a lotto team. If thats the biggest strike you have against him then it truly shows how superior Shaq was.

Bird can take himself out of entire playoff series, not last nearly as long as Shaq, not be as dominant, be shut down several times over, but the best you got on Shaq was that he didnt live up to his potential? LMFAO let me know when you want to start discussing basketball and not practice.

RaiderLakersA's
09-04-2012, 11:56 AM
what about the fact that the non-kobe activists always use the FG% as a fact and not use anything else?

Because even a bloke with a small head will try to hang his hat on the biggest coat rack he can find. Every "Great One" has a stat that detractors can use as a disqualifier.

I was watching the Portland - Showtime Lakers playoff series over the weekend. I had forgotten how little of an impact Magic made in the 4th quarter and overtime in that game. Whenever he did get the ball, he was looking to dish. Mostly to Captain. I'm reminded of a time when Magic chided LeBron for not being the one to take the difference making shot when the game was on the line...and yet here we have Magic not shooting once when the game was hanging in the balance. Funny how we forget those things when we're putting these players up on a pedestal.

You mark my words, but it will be the same with Kobe. It might take 10 - 20 years, but some of these same individuals will suffer memory losses, too. They'll regale their grandkids about how they saw one of the greatest to ever play the game in Kobe...and how there isn't a single player in this future generation's league who could compare to him. Just wait for it.

dh144498
09-04-2012, 12:01 PM
Because even a bloke with a small head will try to hang his hat on the biggest coat rack he can find. Every "Great One" has a stat that detractors can use as a disqualifier.

I was watching the Portland - Showtime Lakers playoff series over the weekend. I had forgotten how little of an impact Magic made in the 4th quarter and overtime in that game. Whenever he did get the ball, he was looking to dish. Mostly to Captain. I'm reminded of a time when Magic chided LeBron for not being the one to take the difference making shot when the game was on the line...and yet here we have Magic not shooting once when the game was hanging in the balance. Funny how we forget those things when we're putting these players up on a pedestal.

You mark my words, but it will be the same with Kobe. It might take 10 - 20 years, but some of these same individuals will suffer memory losses, too. They'll regale their grandkids about how they saw one of the greatest to ever play the game in Kobe...and how there isn't a single player in this future generation's league who could compare to him. Just wait for it.

:clap::clap:

meadowlarklemon
09-04-2012, 10:48 PM
opinions, such as ranking players on the all time list, have to do with reasoning, logic, and, believe it or not, common sense, silly.

Yes, but most people have already formed their opinion based on “logic” and “reasoning” and leave little room for having that opinion changed…..no matter how strong the other person’s argument is. After a while, it just becomes babbling and nonsense….and it’s a waste of time.

I think we choose the facts that we think are important to solidify and justify our own opinion. But since basketball is such a subjective sport, it’s impossible to say for sure who is the best of all-time or how they rank. For example, there’s no way to compare Kareem to Kobe. They played/play different roles on their teams and their accomplishments are quite varied.

So, I rank players by position and then place them on teams (since basketball IS a team sport, right?) Kobe is my second team shooting guard (pretty high for a “non-Kobe fan”). But I rank him 10th all time with very little room for moving up on that list. Why? Because he’ll never be better than Jordan, and he’ll probably be the least important player on the second team. Why? Because he does little to facilitate and heighten team chemistry and awareness. As a pure shooting guard, he’s pretty awesome, though.

LA4life24/8
09-05-2012, 12:40 AM
1.) MJ 2.) Magic 3.) Russel 4.) Wilt 5.) Kobe 6.) Duncan/Oscar 7.) Shaq/Kareem 8.)Dr.J/Bird 9.) West/Malone 10.)Lebron( will most likely move up)

amos1er
09-05-2012, 02:46 AM
Thats what makes this such a landslide victory for Shaq. He has both the superior impact and the superior longevity.

I was referring to his prime years in LA. He was only dominant for about 3-5 years as Bird was consistently a top 3 player for 90% of his career. Shaqs final 7 years in the league were a huge drop off from his prime and his final 3 seasons were completely sub par.


Im suppose to care why?

You're a stats guy...most polls have Bird ranked ahead of Shaq. Polling is the ultimate statistic as it takes into account the largest possible sample size in order to provide the most accurate result. Therefore providing fairest possible answer. The entire decision making process of our country is founded on this principle.




You just admitted he has him beat in impact/dominance as well. Your post has already contradicted itself and its just begun. Cant wait to see what else you pull out of your ***.

Again...Shaq was only dominant for about 3-5 years 00-04. While Bird was more consistent throughout his entire career. I was more referring to the dominance Shaq exhibited in his prime years. Shaq surely had the most dominant prime in the history of the league and thats most of what has carried him in his all time ranking. If Shaq had the work ethic of Larry Bird, he would have been the GOAT for sure.




LMFAO, Bird might have won alot more than that if he wasnt shut down in so many playoff series against a plethora of teams. Oh well, too bad he couldnt keep his wits about him and found himself getting into bar room brawls while in the playoffs.

Nice strawman, but you totally dodged the point I made about how Shaq never had to face teams as good as the showtime Lakers. Thats a fact.


Shaq had to play against superior defenses and still never got locked down to the degree Bird did in his prime. Its honestly quite embarrassing to think about it. Its the reason why Bird doesnt stand a chance next to Kobe. Kobe faced superior defenses and his productive loss was within the expected threshold.

You yourself were just boasting about how the 2004 Pistons were one of if not the best defensive teams of all time in another thread. Are you now deflecting and saying that the Wallace's (with help from the officials) didn't lock down Shaq in that series? It was by far his worst finals performance of his glory years with the Lakers and even you said that their defense is what beat the Lakers that year. I know that Prince (and the refs) did a number on Kobe as well, but surely you have to admit that Shaq had his worst playoff performance of 2004 and quite possibly with his entire tenure with the Lakers during that series. Might be that Shaq did manage to get locked down defensively to the degree of Bird during his prime too. Hard to say though because Shaq was more dominant during his prime Therefore one would have to measure the drop off in production in relation to that series compared to his others and then match that drop off to Birds biggest drop offs.



Pound for pound? Well then where is Mugsey Bogues on the All-Time rankings? Tiny Nate and AI are pound for pound some of the greatest ever, doesnt mean ****. Magic is a better argument than Bird but I still take the big fella. I have trouble deciding between Magic and Kobe tho.

Are you actually comparing Mugsey Bouges to Larry Bird pound for pound? lol AI, Tiny Nate, and Bouges were all slashers and did not have the all around offensive game that Bird possessed. Bird could score efficiently from anywhere on the court and was more driven and competitive. Bird also had less natural athletic ability than 95% of his peers. Most guys with Birds natural abilities would be lucky to land a college scholarship. What Bird did with what he was working with was truly amazing.

Most experts rank Magic right under Jordan...I tend to agree. Had Magic not contracted HIV there is a good chance that Jordan would have only had four or five rings. If Kobe get another ring, finals MVP and moves up to top 3 on the all time scoring list I will give him the nod over Magic putting him at number 2. Currently I have Magic higher.



Yes, the point Im making is that you can still be a superior player despite lesser work ethic. And in a conversation against Bird, you need actual basketball related argument to prove his superiority above a guy who was more dominant and lasted MUCH longer.

Shaq only lasted longer because he didn't have a career ending injury and his final few seasons were horrible. He was clearly in it for a paycheck. Bird was the guy the Celtics leaned on in crunch time...Shaq never was that guy and that goes a long way in determining greatness.


Its actually pretty simple when all objective evidence backs me while you have to rely on subjective arguments like, work ethic whilst ignoring actual on court results. Bird was a hard worker, too bad he wasnt the better player.

Bird was the clear cut leader of the Celtics. He never had anyone as good as Kobe as his running mate. Bird was their go to guy in the 4th quarter and Shaq leaned on Kobe for those moments. Putting up big numbers sure helps Shaq's case, but being that go to guy is something that Bird will always have over Shaq. Bird had a better all around offensive game than did Shaq. Shaq relied heavily on physical dominance rather than the complete basketball skill set that Bird did. Put Bird in Shaq's body and Shaq would be the GOAT for sure. Put Shaq in Birds body and he wouldn't even be in the NBA...he would be corn husking French Lick.


Maybe, but it weakens your argument, and no matter what, on the court ability still matters more.

On court ability is subjective. Shaq was 7'2, 300 lbs and had quite possibly the best athletic ability in the history of the game for a guy his size. Wilt would be the next best example. That said, of course his fg%, rebounding, and ability to score are going to be far greater. Bird had a much much better all around game and was clutch. Shaq was an underachiever and Bird was an overachiever. Pretty hard to give Shaq the higher ranking taking that into account. Plus Bird had to go against the Showtime Lakers and didn't have a Kobe Bryant or even Dwayne Wade for that matter.


Lets put it this way, Kobe has a superior work ethic than Larry Bird, and yet none of that prevented the Lakers from benefiting more from Shaq's presence than his. So why the **** would I care if Bird worked on his jumper more if he didnt last as long as Shaq anyways AND he was never as dominant, AND got locked down to a degree that Prime Shaq never did while facing superior defenses?

- Shaq was locked down against the 2004 Pistons...for his standards at least.

- Shaq had the better prime years, but Larry had a greater impact for a longer period of time.

- Shaq had Kobe. Larry never had anyone even close to that good.

- Shaq wasn't the go to guy in the 4th, Bird was.

- Bird had 3 titles, 2 finals MVP's, and 3 MVP's to Shaq's 4 titles, 3 finals MVP's and 1 MVP. He did all that without relying on nearly the same physical advantage or ability, having as good a wingman, and having to play against the showtime Lakers twice in the finals. Even with all of Shaq's advantages, Bird was still the more prolific scorer in addition to being a much better playmaker and closer.


He couldve been out alot longer if he elected to take the route that was best for his career, its called weighing your options and getting different medical opinions. Doesnt change the fact that Shaq put the Lakers ahead of his own career, and if he hadnt done that the Lakers would have been a lotto team. If thats the biggest strike you have against him then it truly shows how superior Shaq was.

Again, another strawman. No matter what point you make about the type of surgery he elected to undergo, the fact remains that he chose to enjoy his summer rather than to do the surgery earlier on in the off season.


Bird can take himself out of entire playoff series, not last nearly as long as Shaq, not be as dominant, be shut down several times over, but the best you got on Shaq was that he didnt live up to his potential? LMFAO let me know when you want to start discussing basketball and not practice.

Underachieving shouldn't be the end all be all, but it be taken into account somewhat. Work ethic is a very important trait and Shaq got away with having a poor one due to his unreal natural abilities. Not everyone is that lucky.

meadowlarklemon
09-05-2012, 07:23 AM
Because even a bloke with a small head will try to hang his hat on the biggest coat rack he can find. Every "Great One" has a stat that detractors can use as a disqualifier.

I was watching the Portland - Showtime Lakers playoff series over the weekend. I had forgotten how little of an impact Magic made in the 4th quarter and overtime in that game. Whenever he did get the ball, he was looking to dish. Mostly to Captain. I'm reminded of a time when Magic chided LeBron for not being the one to take the difference making shot when the game was on the line...and yet here we have Magic not shooting once when the game was hanging in the balance. Funny how we forget those things when we're putting these players up on a pedestal.

You mark my words, but it will be the same with Kobe. It might take 10 - 20 years, but some of these same individuals will suffer memory losses, too. They'll regale their grandkids about how they saw one of the greatest to ever play the game in Kobe...and how there isn't a single player in this future generation's league who could compare to him. Just wait for it.

i was only using fg% as an example. it doesn't matter how many facts i come up with, it's still a matter of opinion in the very end. it's all in how much each individual gives credence to a given fact. I personally would think that shooting percentage is slightly important for a shooting guard. Just like assists per game is important for a point guard. but if you disagree, that's just because you don't give that fact much credence. But if certain facts don't matter, then how does "logic" and "reasoning" play a role in determining where players rank on the all-time list?

the answer is.....logic doesn't work. it's only a feeling that a person has. so, my "feeling" is that MJ will always be the best one-on-one type player (probably). And Magic will always be the best team player.

Chronz
09-05-2012, 07:20 PM
I was referring to his prime years in LA.
So was I, we were talking about peak play and longevity. The Laker years are his tops.


He was only dominant for about 3-5 years as Bird was consistently a top 3 player for 90% of his career.
Can you substantiate this? Sounds made up


Shaqs final 7 years in the league were a huge drop off from his prime and his final 3 seasons were completely sub par.
Irrelevant in an argument vs Bird. Its better to be an All-Star/All-NBA performer, Champion etc... than struggling to a greater degree or not even being in the league at all. Bird didnt enter as young as Shaq and Shaq left the game much older than him, why are you neglecting this fact when discussing final years?

This would be a great point if Shaq's entire career consisted solely of his Purple and Gold days, but Shaq had another Finals run and upper echelon play in Orlando, on top of an MVP caliber run + championship with Miami. Then finally fading into the sunset as an All-Star in Phoenix. I mean, why would I care if they were subpar when they provided more than Bird did?
---------------------------------------------------------------------


I can see that you recite the whole Bird was epic for 90% of his career throughout this post so I'll just tackle that point now for future reference.

So according to you Bird was Top 3 for 90% of his career. Well lets see, he played 13 seasons. Im doing the calculation on my handy calculator and that comes out to 12 Seasons(11.7).

So that means he cant have more than 1(1.3) season that was completely subpar. Well considering he missed the entire 1989 season with bone spurs that means your trying to tell me that the world didn't see Bird in his later age struggle with back problems? From 88-92 thats already 4 seasons that Bird played well beneath himself or missed the entire season altogether. 90% my ***.




Instead of setting arbitrary limits, lets just review their NBA careers as a whole.


Ages 20-22: Shaq, an All-Star from day 1, makes 2 All-NBA teams, runners-up for MVP and makes it to the Finals defeating MJ's Bulls in the process.

Bird = 0MPG

So basically whatever Bird did to have you rank him above Shaq had to come from ages 23-35. Well lets focus on the end of their careers again, at the stage when Bird missed the entire year with injury, Shaq was having an MVP caliber season.

Bird came back strong the next year, making his last All-NBA Team but got booted in the first round against an inferior squad, with Bird going 5-19 from 3 and playing a very mediocre series all around. Meanwhile Shaq was winning another championship.

During the course of the next 2 years Bird would occasionally spend nights in the hospital in traction, while he was playing at an All-Star level during the regular season, his playoff production dwindled drastically and the Celtics continue to get ousted in R.2. Shaq remained an All-Star/All-NBA performer.

So I have proven your 90% mark as an exaggeration, on top of the fact that Shaq gives us the 3 extra high level years in Orlando, along with a greater final 4 years(Of Birds career) with some role player days added in the end.

So what we're left with discussing as Birds theoretical prime/peak lands in the 9 relatively healthy seasons he has left. Thats 1 year longer than Shaq was as Laker, see why I made the comparison earlier.






You're a stats guy...most polls have Bird ranked ahead of Shaq. Polling is the ultimate statistic as it takes into account the largest possible sample size in order to provide the most accurate result. Therefore providing fairest possible answer. The entire decision making process of our country is founded on this principle.

Im a scientific guy, what your showing me is the popularity vote. I have no doubt most people feel Bird is superior, what Im interested in hearing is the rationale. Thats why I dont care for a drowned out opinion, just specific reasons. If thats too much to ask then whats the point of posting here?



Again...Shaq was only dominant for about 3-5 years 00-04. While Bird was more consistent throughout his entire career. I was more referring to the dominance Shaq exhibited in his prime years. Shaq surely had the most dominant prime in the history of the league and thats most of what has carried him in his all time ranking. If Shaq had the work ethic of Larry Bird, he would have been the GOAT for sure.
Nah, Bird underachieved just by not taking care of his body. If Shaq had Kobe's work ethic then yes, but like I said before, Kobe having a superior work ethic didnt prevent him from having a lesser impact. So why would it be the distinguishing factor in an argument against someone like Bird who didnt even last that long and was never as dominant?





Nice strawman, but you totally dodged the point I made about how Shaq never had to face teams as good as the showtime Lakers. Thats a fact.

It wasnt dodged, Shaq played against superior defenses and yet was never shut down to the degree that Bird was. Why would I doubt Shaq when the hes proven to sustain his level of play in the post season against superior defenses? Bird's playoff failures run deeper than Shaq's without the added benefit of sustaining his prime or having the greater peak.



You yourself were just boasting about how the 2004 Pistons were one of if not the best defensive teams of all time in another thread. Are you now deflecting and saying that the Wallace's (with help from the officials) didn't lock down Shaq in that series?
Even if they did contain Shaq, your only proving my point, a series involving one of the greatest defensive frontlines ever constructed, was barely able to slow down Shaq. Bird on the other hand shot like 35% in his series vs Detroit at the same stage in his career. IIRC it got so bad some opposing players were ridiculing his play. It was probably worse than what the Pistons did to Kobe.


Might be that Shaq did manage to get locked down defensively to the degree of Bird during his prime too. Hard to say though because Shaq was more dominant during his prime Therefore one would have to measure the drop off in production in relation to that series compared to his others and then match that drop off to Birds biggest drop offs.
Not even close, statistically Bird exceeded the expected loss threshold, this is relative to the strength of the defense they are playing. The reasons are a mixture of bad luck/injuries and his own doing, whatever the cause, Shaq simply didnt lose as badly in his worst playoff showings and was far more demonstrative in his playoff victories.


Id rather discuss that, break down what Bird did in those 9 years that has you surpassing Shaq's collective dominance. And no exaggerations this time.







Are you actually comparing Mugsey Bouges to Larry Bird pound for pound? lol AI, Tiny Nate, and Bouges were all slashers and did not have the all around offensive game that Bird possessed. Bird could score efficiently from anywhere on the court and was more driven and competitive. Bird also had less natural athletic ability than 95% of his peers. Most guys with Birds natural abilities would be lucky to land a college scholarship. What Bird did with what he was working with was truly amazing.
Forgive me if I have lost faith in your guesstimate percentages, but we are talking about pound for pound are we not. I wasnt comparing them to Bird, I was comparing how similarly I could inflate their worth. Its the same as saying Iverson is greater than Kobe because pound for pound he was the better player.


Most experts rank Magic right under Jordan...I tend to agree. Had Magic not contracted HIV there is a good chance that Jordan would have only had four or five rings. If Kobe get another ring, finals MVP and moves up to top 3 on the all time scoring list I will give him the nod over Magic putting him at number 2. Currently I have Magic higher.
I dont see why.




Shaq only lasted longer because he didn't have a career ending injury and his final few seasons were horrible.
Ding ding ding, thank you for helping my point. He lasted LONGER, we know he wont go down with a bad back, therefore this HELPS his legacy AND my argument for his superiority over brittle Bird.


He was clearly in it for a paycheck.
He was in it for the glory and respect, not just a paycheck.


Bird was the guy the Celtics leaned on in crunch time...Shaq never was that guy and that goes a long way in determining greatness.
Sure, but so does how you perform for the entirety of a playoff series/run. Shaq had his clutch moments but I know for a fact hes never been shut down to the degree Bird has in his prime.



Bird was the clear cut leader of the Celtics. He never had anyone as good as Kobe as his running mate. Bird was their go to guy in the 4th quarter and Shaq leaned on Kobe for those moments. Putting up big numbers sure helps Shaq's case, but being that go to guy is something that Bird will always have over Shaq. Bird had a better all around offensive game than did Shaq. Shaq relied heavily on physical dominance rather than the complete basketball skill set that Bird did. Put Bird in Shaq's body and Shaq would be the GOAT for sure. Put Shaq in Birds body and he wouldn't even be in the NBA...he would be corn husking French Lick.
Notice how you keep relying on Shaq's size to diminish his stature. Newsflash!, IT DOESNT. That size comes with the package. Im not drafting this hypothetical player that combines both strengths, Im choosing between 2 set players with 2 particular strengths and weaknesses. Why would I go for someone who relies on skill to the degree that he can get locked down several times over and lose to inferior squads. No thanks, not when I can take Shaq, who can make the game look easy, and play far longer. Same reason I dont take AI before Kobe, size matters.



On court ability is subjective. Shaq was 7'2, 300 lbs and had quite possibly the best athletic ability in the history of the game for a guy his size. Wilt would be the next best example. That said, of course his fg%, rebounding, and ability to score are going to be far greater. Bird had a much much better all around game and was clutch. Shaq was an underachiever and Bird was an overachiever. Pretty hard to give Shaq the higher ranking taking that into account. Plus Bird had to go against the Showtime Lakers and didn't have a Kobe Bryant or even Dwayne Wade for that matter.
False, Bird underachieved when you consider how much greater he could have been had he taken care of his body. And its pretty easy to go with Shaq when he lasted so much longer, dominated far harder and wasnt as prone as Bird was to being locked down and losing to inferior teams than his.



- Shaq was locked down against the 2004 Pistons...for his standards at least.
If thats your example then Bird doesnt stand a chance. Shaq was only modestly contained against superior defenses. Bird fell apart against teams inferior to his own.


- Shaq had the better prime years, but Larry had a greater impact for a longer period of time.

False


- Shaq had Kobe. Larry never had anyone even close to that good.
The rest of the roster more than makes up for the superiority of young Kobe, its why Bird could win a chip with someone else winning Finals MVP, why his team could stretch games to the limit even with him struggling. Why give him the benefit of the doubt when hes come up small more often than Shaq?


- Shaq wasn't the go to guy in the 4th, Bird was.
Shaq gave my team the better chance to win when assessing an entire games worth of impact, Shaq also had plenty of moments where hes come up clutch just like Bird has shown plenty of times how he will fail to step up in the playoffs.



Again, another strawman. No matter what point you make about the type of surgery he elected to undergo, the fact remains that he chose to enjoy his summer rather than to do the surgery earlier on in the off season.

False, its a concrete fact that Shaq was weighing his options and getting different opinions on what do to on his toe, he chose the route that would get him on the court sooner. That has to be mentioned whenever anyone brings this up. He could have easily just gone with what was best for his career, instead he took the route that saved the Lakers season.



Underachieving shouldn't be the end all be all, but it be taken into account somewhat.
Not one bit, it makes no difference if an inferior player tried harder, the better player is the one who gives your team the best chance to win. Focus on that and not buzz words like underachiever and skill set. What matters are the END RESULTS.


Work ethic is a very important trait and Shaq got away with having a poor one due to his unreal natural abilities. Not everyone is that lucky.
I dont agree, I dont buy that people know more about the rigors of an NBA season and the toll it has on Shaq's body, better than him. He paced himself accordingly, some years he dropped the ball alil too much, others he put himself in top physical condition too soon, but the fact will always remain, he lasted longer and he dominated harder.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-05-2012, 07:26 PM
Because even a bloke with a small head will try to hang his hat on the biggest coat rack he can find. Every "Great One" has a stat that detractors can use as a disqualifier.

I was watching the Portland - Showtime Lakers playoff series over the weekend. I had forgotten how little of an impact Magic made in the 4th quarter and overtime in that game. Whenever he did get the ball, he was looking to dish. Mostly to Captain. I'm reminded of a time when Magic chided LeBron for not being the one to take the difference making shot when the game was on the line...and yet here we have Magic not shooting once when the game was hanging in the balance. Funny how we forget those things when we're putting these players up on a pedestal.

You mark my words, but it will be the same with Kobe. It might take 10 - 20 years, but some of these same individuals will suffer memory losses, too. They'll regale their grandkids about how they saw one of the greatest to ever play the game in Kobe...and how there isn't a single player in this future generation's league who could compare to him. Just wait for it.



To be fair to Magic, Kareem was the best offensive scoring weapon on the Lakers and add the deadly unguardable skyhook and getting the ball to Kareem was a no-brainer.

3RDASYSTEM
09-05-2012, 07:48 PM
Dumbest **** i heard is SHAQ was dominant with LA from 00-04

Like damn they forgot his first 4yrs in ORL tearing down rims and breaking down the new 'tech' rim like a transformer and going hard at DREAM/DROB/MOURNING/EWING like it wasnt nothing from day 1? do they recall him getting quintuple teamed at LSU,preNBA? but i get it,he was only dominant for 4yrs out of 18-19yrs...amazing

how come a guy is not in they 'prime' when he enters the league rookie yr putting up like 24ppg and 14rpg and damn near 4blocks per? somebody break down wat a prime is because the players who i feel are best game wise/dominant already come into the NBA and do it from the jump, not develop for yrs to see if he is going to pan out or not...trust me SHAQ was prime from day1, titles won or lost doesnt start or end your prime,your game you bring to the hardwood does

RaiderLakersA's
09-05-2012, 08:34 PM
To be fair to Magic, Kareem was the best offensive scoring weapon on the Lakers and add the deadly unguardable skyhook and getting the ball to Kareem was a no-brainer.

This wasn't young Kareem, this was old man Kareem. And what's the excuse when Kareem wasn't on the floor? Magic was a nonfactor in the 4th and overtime. He was even getting blown by on defense by players whose names most of us have long forgotten.

My point is simply this: at some point we'll forget the flaws and shortcomings. That is always the case with the Great Ones. This is precisely why where Kobe ranks now in an empirical sense doesn't matter. I am very much looking forward to seeing the tone of these threads in another 10 - 20 years.

meadowlarklemon
09-06-2012, 12:32 AM
This wasn't young Kareem, this was old man Kareem. And what's the excuse when Kareem wasn't on the floor? Magic was a nonfactor in the 4th and overtime. He was even getting blown by on defense by players whose names most of us have long forgotten.

My point is simply this: at some point we'll forget the flaws and shortcomings. That is always the case with the Great Ones. This is precisely why where Kobe ranks now in an empirical sense doesn't matter. I am very much looking forward to seeing the tone of these threads in another 10 - 20 years.

Are we talking about the same Magic Johnson? you know, theone who scored 42 points in Kareem's absence in 1980. The same Magic that hit the game winning shot against Boston in (which year?) to seal the deal against a stingy Bird?

Magic has achieved way more, dramatically speaking, than Kobe in big games. Kobe usually wins games by drawing questionable fouls.

basketfan4life
09-06-2012, 06:14 AM
Are we talking about the same Magic Johnson? you know, theone who scored 42 points in Kareem's absence in 1980. The same Magic that hit the game winning shot against Boston in (which year?) to seal the deal against a stingy Bird?

Magic has achieved way more, dramatically speaking, than Kobe in big games. Kobe usually wins games by drawing questionable fouls.

not even remotely close to being true.

charlies_angels
09-06-2012, 11:03 AM
he's in the top 10 for me.

Vinylman
09-06-2012, 01:17 PM
To be fair to Magic, Kareem was the best offensive scoring weapon on the Lakers and add the deadly unguardable skyhook and getting the ball to Kareem was a no-brainer.

Really?

KAJ was pretty much a 3/4th option during his last 2 chips

Not blasting you or KAJ but it is pretty funny listening to people talk about Showtime Lakers like they didnt have problems

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-06-2012, 03:42 PM
Really?

KAJ was pretty much a 3/4th option during his last 2 chips

Not blasting you or KAJ but it is pretty funny listening to people talk about Showtime Lakers like they didnt have problems


I understand KAJ was old as hell, but if you needed one shot in the half court setting, wouldn't you still give the ball to old Kareem in the post and see him go to work for an eventual beautiful unstoppable sky-hook?


I think that's the point I was trying to make.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-06-2012, 03:43 PM
Kobe usually wins games by drawing questionable fouls.

llullz :laugh2:

Vinylman
09-06-2012, 05:30 PM
I understand KAJ was old as hell, but if you needed one shot in the half court setting, wouldn't you still give the ball to old Kareem in the post and see him go to work for an eventual beautiful unstoppable sky-hook?


I think that's the point I was trying to make.

That is just dreaming... the pistons bullied the **** out of him in those 2 finals...

even the one we won he wasn't very good

36/87 from the field 13.1 ppg and 4.2 rpg... he had one good game ... game 5... a game the lakers got beat by double digits

again, memories fade when it comes to players we all loved...

the lakers for all there winning had alot of problems in the 80's TRAGIC Johnson included.

meadowlarklemon
09-06-2012, 05:56 PM
llullz :laugh2:

well, can you give me an example where KB hit a game-winning shot....at the buzzer....in a huge, championship or crucial playoff game?

i know he's hit "important" fourth quarter shots, but i'm talking about dramatic game-winners.

meadowlarklemon
09-06-2012, 06:04 PM
and let's face it, we won that last championship versus Boston by Kobe drawing fouls on the home court.....mostly

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-06-2012, 06:38 PM
well, can you give me an example where KB hit a game-winning shot....at the buzzer....in a huge, championship or crucial playoff game?

i know he's hit "important" fourth quarter shots, but i'm talking about dramatic game-winners.

Game 4 2006 1st round against the Suns. In regulation the floater to send the game to OT.

And then the J in the face of both Marion and Tim Thomas in OT at the buzzer!







Last game of 03-04 regular season to win the pacific division title. 4 pt play in single OT to send the game to Double OT.


And then the game winner double OT to win the pacific division title....at the buzzer.



You're Welcome.

meadowlarklemon
09-06-2012, 07:20 PM
^ but no championship, NBA Final games you can think of......or crucial closeout games in the conference finals?

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-06-2012, 07:31 PM
^ but no championship, NBA Final games you can think of......or crucial closeout games in the conference finals?

Game 6 2010 WCF against PHX, @ PHX.


Lakers have comfortable lead, Suns come all the way back after Sasha's girly cheap shot on Dragic, that gets the team and the fans riled up...


And then Kobe goes ballistic and hits the toughest shots any man in this universe has ever attempted, and basically makes them all with Jared Dudley, Grant Hill and others literally right in his jersey.


And then pats Alvin Gentry on his ***.


Series over, Lakers move on to their 3rd straight NBA Finals.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-06-2012, 07:34 PM
Oh, as far as NBA Finals games....

Game 2 in LA, of the 04 Finals, Pistons about to steal a 2nd straight game in LA, but Kobe hits a 3 pointers 7 feet beyond the 3 pt line line and sends the game into OT. Lakers win in OT. Their only win against Detroit in that series.



And then game 3, 02 Finals against the Nets @ NJ, in the final minutes, posting JKidd up and the turn around jump hook to seal the deal and give LA a commanding 3-0 Lead of the NBA Finals.

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-06-2012, 07:40 PM
That is just dreaming... the pistons bullied the **** out of him in those 2 finals...

even the one we won he wasn't very good

36/87 from the field 13.1 ppg and 4.2 rpg... he had one good game ... game 5... a game the lakers got beat by double digits

again, memories fade when it comes to players we all loved...

the lakers for all there winning had alot of problems in the 80's TRAGIC Johnson included.

Ouch Vinny, why you gotta bring up the '84 Finals again. :o

meadowlarklemon
09-07-2012, 04:58 AM
Oh, as far as NBA Finals games....

Game 2 in LA, of the 04 Finals, Pistons about to steal a 2nd straight game in LA, but Kobe hits a 3 pointers 7 feet beyond the 3 pt line line and sends the game into OT. Lakers win in OT. Their only win against Detroit in that series.



And then game 3, 02 Finals against the Nets @ NJ, in the final minutes, posting JKidd up and the turn around jump hook to seal the deal and give LA a commanding 3-0 Lead of the NBA Finals.

That's about right. Keep in mind that I have Kobe ranked tenth all-time. That's not too shabby for a player that's still active and only 34. I'm aware of many of the heroic games and his not-so-heroic games. But there are so many memorable moments that stick out in Laker history....in Games 6's and 7's of the conference and nba finals. It's just most of them don't really include Kobe.

Sure, his ferocious play has helped the Lakers immensely throughout many-a-battle. I applaud Kobe and think he's beyond awesome as a shooting guard. But I know what a lot of the pro-Kobe posters imply on these sites, and that is......that he will someday be considered the best player of all-time. I just beg to differ. Yes, he's great. But statically and non-statistically speaking, there is a lot left to be desired when it comes to Kobe Bryant as the best ever.

The highest he could ever get, would be about 6th in my book. But that's just me and I know you prolly don't give a **** about what i think.

AlmostThere
09-07-2012, 06:43 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLOMEmRQ40U

OZknickerbocker
09-07-2012, 06:54 AM
I'm sorry I think Kobe Bryant is the greatest player of al time, in his 16th season he averaged 27.9ppg the previous best for a player in his 16th season is 23.4ppg by KAJ
The previous best for a guard was 14.8 (reggie miller)

OZknickerbocker
09-07-2012, 06:56 AM
And I'm a Knicks fan

meadowlarklemon
09-07-2012, 09:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLOMEmRQ40U

honestly, any decent athlete could throw that pass to Shaq. If Kobe was the best of all-time, they should have doin' that play year after year, and should've won several more championships than they did together.

So, why didn't they? I think you know the answer to that question.

meadowlarklemon
09-07-2012, 09:58 AM
And I'm a Knicks fan

and how old are you?

AlmostThere
09-07-2012, 10:15 AM
honestly, any decent athlete could throw that pass to Shaq. If Kobe was the best of all-time, they should have doin' that play year after year, and should've won several more championships than they did together.

So, why didn't they? I think you know the answer to that question.

If you listen carefully Bob Costas says "Kobe Bryant's two free throws and jumper gave Lakers a 4 point lead, now his assist to Shaq makes it a 6 point difference."

Clearly they both needed each other. Just like Jordan needed Pippen to get past the Pistons, and how Lebron needed to join Wade and Bosh to get his ring.

dh144498
09-07-2012, 10:22 AM
honestly, any decent athlete could throw that pass to Shaq. If Kobe was the best of all-time, they should have doin' that play year after year, and should've won several more championships than they did together.

So, why didn't they? I think you know the answer to that question.

u are seriously the saltiest hater I have ever seen. :facepalm:

SteBO
09-07-2012, 10:26 AM
honestly, any decent athlete could throw that pass to Shaq. If Kobe was the best of all-time, they should have doin' that play year after year, and should've won several more championships than they did together.

So, why didn't they? I think you know the answer to that question.
I fail to see how any of this is relevant......Kobe detractors never think about what would've happened had Kobe not played the way he did in some of those Finals games w/ Shaq. No question Shaq was the "man" on those teams, but Kobe was vital too.

C_Mund
09-07-2012, 10:42 AM
This ones are over him clearly.

Magic, Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Oscar.

So he is on a debate with Mikan,west, Baylor, Havlicek Dr J, Moses Malone, Hakeem, RObinson, Shaq, Duncan for the remaining top 10-15

I'm on board with this. I'd put Hakeem, Duncan, (Prime) Shaq above Kobe. Maybe Havlicek but that's a stretch.

meadowlarklemon
09-07-2012, 11:13 AM
u are seriously the saltiest hater I have ever seen. :facepalm:

dude, i like kobe bryant. I'm just calling it like i see it. Just because i like a player doesn't mean i think he's the greatest ever. I like a LOT of players, but it has nothing to do with how or where I'd rank them.

meadowlarklemon
09-07-2012, 11:19 AM
If you listen carefully Bob Costas says "Kobe Bryant's two free throws and jumper gave Lakers a 4 point lead, now his assist to Shaq makes it a 6 point difference."

Clearly they both needed each other. Just like Jordan needed Pippen to get past the Pistons, and how Lebron needed to join Wade and Bosh to get his ring.

i agree. i LOVE the lakers. I just think that Kobe fans are a little delusional...that's all.

over and out

dh144498
09-07-2012, 11:31 AM
dude, i like kobe bryant. I'm just calling it like i see it. Just because i like a player doesn't mean i think he's the greatest ever. I like a LOT of players, but it has nothing to do with how or where I'd rank them.

so a clash of egos suddenly makes you think anyone could've replaced Kobe during that 3peat. :facepalm:

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-07-2012, 11:33 AM
hmmmm... id def say top 10. but let him finish his career before we even talk about this lol there is no point cos it could change for the best or worse. who knows, but a lot can happen in 2 years.

RaiderLakersA's
09-07-2012, 12:01 PM
honestly, any decent athlete could throw that pass to Shaq. If Kobe was the best of all-time, they should have doin' that play year after year, and should've won several more championships than they did together.

So, why didn't they? I think you know the answer to that question.

Because Shaq came up short as the MOST DOMINANT BIG MAN ever? :shrug:

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-07-2012, 03:25 PM
That's about right. Keep in mind that I have Kobe ranked tenth all-time. That's not too shabby for a player that's still active and only 34. I'm aware of many of the heroic games and his not-so-heroic games. But there are so many memorable moments that stick out in Laker history....in Games 6's and 7's of the conference and nba finals. It's just most of them don't really include Kobe.

Sure, his ferocious play has helped the Lakers immensely throughout many-a-battle. I applaud Kobe and think he's beyond awesome as a shooting guard. But I know what a lot of the pro-Kobe posters imply on these sites, and that is......that he will someday be considered the best player of all-time. I just beg to differ. Yes, he's great. But statically and non-statistically speaking, there is a lot left to be desired when it comes to Kobe Bryant as the best ever.

The highest he could ever get, would be about 6th in my book. But that's just me and I know you prolly don't give a **** about what i think.


Don't think Kobe will be regarded as the best ever, but he will be regarded as one of if not the most hardest working and physically and mentally toughest player in NBA history (Colorado, all those injuries that any normal man would have sat out) and a guy who maximized his talents and God-given abilities. And finally, when it's all said and done, with his longevity and possibly being responsible for the most championships brought to Lakerland, he will be known as the Greatest Laker of All-Time.

He won't be better than MJ, but he'll be worthy of sitting at the same dinner table as His Airness.

dh144498
09-07-2012, 04:06 PM
well, can you give me an example where KB hit a game-winning shot....at the buzzer....in a huge, championship or crucial playoff game?

i know he's hit "important" fourth quarter shots, but i'm talking about dramatic game-winners.

idk why you consider only buzzer beaters to be a measure for ... whatever you are trying to talk about.... You act like buzzer beaters are common or something. I'd rather a player seal the game for his team in the 4th quarter instead of letting the other team to be within 1-2 points so he can hit a buzzer beater (possibly miss) and jeopardize his own team's success. It should be crunch time performances to measure a man's defining moments.

But since you brought it up, here you go:
2004 game 2 vs detroit
2006 game 4 vs Suns. He actually had 2 buzzer beaters in that game.
there are more but those are the ones I thought of from the top of my head.

Ebbs
09-07-2012, 04:20 PM
Jordan
Wilt
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Russell
Kobe
Duncan

I would probably put him top 10

Chronz
09-07-2012, 07:39 PM
He won't be better than MJ, but he'll be worthy of sitting at the same dinner table as His Airness.
I dont get this. His career is 90% done, dont you think hes worthy already? What exactly are you trying to say with this metaphor?

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-07-2012, 07:42 PM
I dont get this. His career is 90% done, dont you think hes worthy already? What exactly are you trying to say with this metaphor?

Personally, I'd like to see at least 1 more chip from the Black Mamba (preferably two more for a total of 7 if us Lakers fans are blessed). That's all.

meadowlarklemon
09-07-2012, 07:55 PM
idk why you consider only buzzer beaters to be a measure for ... whatever you are trying to talk about.... You act like buzzer beaters are common or something. I'd rather a player seal the game for his team in the 4th quarter instead of letting the other team to be within 1-2 points so he can hit a buzzer beater (possibly miss) and jeopardize his own team's success. It should be crunch time performances to measure a man's defining moments.

But since you brought it up, here you go:
2004 game 2 vs detroit
2006 game 4 vs Suns. He actually had 2 buzzer beaters in that game.
there are more but those are the ones I thought of from the top of my head.

i'm not "only" considering buzzer beaters. That's just the current domain of basketball we happen to be discussing right now.

I DO give kobe credit, btw, i have him ranked 10th all-time. That's not too shabby in reality. If he could hit a few more clutch game winners, raise his fg% to like 47%, and win a couple more championships....he could be top five.
But I don't think he could ever surpass MJ. MJ could've won 9 in a row if he wanted to (retired after third and again after sixth). The game was too easy for Mike.

i'm not a hater, btw, just a truth seeker

Chronz
09-07-2012, 08:16 PM
Personally, I'd like to see at least 1 more chip from the Black Mamba (preferably two more for a total of 7 if us Lakers fans are blessed). That's all.
Still doesnt make sense to me. MJ isnt sitting by himself, hes got company already and if your trying to say that he is alone, then I dont see how Kobe leapfrogs so many players when we've already seen his best.

MJ doesnt sit alone and if he does, Kobe will not be the guy who gets to sit next to him

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-07-2012, 08:34 PM
Still doesnt make sense to me. MJ isnt sitting by himself, hes got company already and if your trying to say that he is alone, then I dont see how Kobe leapfrogs so many players when we've already seen his best.

MJ doesnt sit alone and if he does, Kobe will not be the guy who gets to sit next to him

I'm talking about the ring club sir.


Right now, Kobe is at the same dinner table as Magic. Up next, he wants to join Table #6, where MJ and Kareem are sitting.

If he's fortunate enough to get a 7th, well, then that's something special in it right there.


(And please don't say Robert Horry, I'm talking about the greats to have ever played this game).

meadowlarklemon
09-07-2012, 09:10 PM
I'm talking about the ring club sir.


Right now, Kobe is at the same dinner table as Magic. Up next, he wants to join Table #6, where MJ and Kareem are sitting.

If he's fortunate enough to get a 7th, well, then that's something special in it right there.


(And please don't say Robert Horry, I'm talking about the greats to have ever played this game).

:laugh:
Robert Horry has more crucial clutch shots AND more rings than our special little friend. PUT HIM AT THE TABLE!

KB-Pau-DH2012
09-07-2012, 09:15 PM
:laugh:
Robert Horry has more crucial clutch shots AND more rings than our special little friend. PUT HIM AT THE TABLE!

He can serve the fine wine, Cabernet Merlot. :D

meadowlarklemon
09-07-2012, 09:23 PM
good enough :cheers:

Chronz
09-07-2012, 09:46 PM
I'm talking about the ring club sir.


Right now, Kobe is at the same dinner table as Magic. Up next, he wants to join Table #6, where MJ and Kareem are sitting.

If he's fortunate enough to get a 7th, well, then that's something special in it right there.


(And please don't say Robert Horry, I'm talking about the greats to have ever played this game).
Yea if he gets to 8 he can join the table with Hondo. Wouldnt that be something.

NVM then, I thought you meant something much more relevant, the overall career club. In the ring Club you have Elvin Hayes sitting at a table that Charles Barkley and Karl Malone arent allowed to dine at.

beliges
09-08-2012, 03:06 PM
Still doesnt make sense to me. MJ isnt sitting by himself, hes got company already and if your trying to say that he is alone, then I dont see how Kobe leapfrogs so many players when we've already seen his best.

MJ doesnt sit alone and if he does, Kobe will not be the guy who gets to sit next to him

Kobe at his best was the most unstoppable scoring perimeter player to ever play the game. Dont get why you seem to think Kobe's peak wasnt as good as anyone else's peak. Although there are only about 6 people he can leapfrog at this point in his career, its silly to say winning another title or two wont do that. Certainly he has a ways to go before he can get to the #1, but hes not far away from getting into the top 3. I think another title or two will certainly propel him there. Hes already achieved more success and dominance in this league than anyone outside of 5 or so players.

Your arguments dont make sense sometimes. Kobe's peak 03, 04, 06, 07 is up there with anyone that has ever played. I think youre so quick to forget.