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AI
08-29-2012, 11:42 PM
1. Re-sign David Ortiz and Cody Ross to extensions. That's already on the team's to-do list. Give Ortiz a two-year deal and let him end his career here without any further contract angst. Ross will be looking for three years but may need to settle for two plus an option. At 31, that's not a bad investment.

OK, I can agree with this.


2. Target a top-of-the-rotation starter. Two possibilities come to mind -- Cliff Lee and Felix Hernandez. Lee will come with a stiff price ($25 million per for the next three seasons) and has been anything but dominant this season; the Sox have made countless runs at Hernandez, and each time have been told by Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik he's not available. It's worth trying again, with the newly acquired Allen Webster and soon-to-be-a-Sox Rubby de la Rosa the type of young pitchers Zduriencik might consider as centerpieces of a package for his ace. This may be where discipline comes in: You try to avoid giving up either in a prospective deal for Lee, who turns 34 Thursday and is having an off season. For arguably the best pitcher in the game, of course, they're in play.

No to Lee and his awful contract, and no to the monumental package it would take to land Felix Hernandez, who isn't even available. I do agree, to a small degree, with the notion that we need a "top of the rotation starter" but ultimately I believe we're much better with a rotation that consists of #2-3 type starters rather than a #1 and the rest being #4-5 type starters.


3. Hold on to Jacoby Ellsbury, even though he probably won't sign an extension and will test free agency in a year. Without Gonzalez and Crawford, you need Ellsbury's offense. If you're out of contention in July, you try to move him.

Couldn't disagree more. You trade him in the offseason where he has more appeal to other teams due to the draft pick compensation if he doesn't commit to an extension. If you don't get the type of package you desire, then yes, keep him.


4. Explore a deal for Justin Upton. On the face of it, the Arizona outfielder represents exactly the kind of value Cherington says the Sox are looking for: He's young (25), cost-controllable (signed through 2015 with $38.5 million left on his contract) and with a huge ceiling (he was fourth in the MVP voting last season, though his performance fell off this season). If the Diamondbacks are indeed willing to consider moving him, the Sox should be at the top of the list of potential suitors.

Yes, yes, and yes. Makes too much sense.


5. Patch and fill at first base and in the outfield. Nick Swisher, who is a free agent at the end of the season. The Yankees outfielder might even bring a little of the "Idiot" vibe to Fenway Park. The monster first basemen are all spoken for, but there will be serviceable pieces out there. Assuming bounce-back years from Ellsbury and Dustin Pedroia, and a maintenance of status quo by Ortiz, Ross, and Middlebrooks, this team should still score runs. Add a dynamic player like Upton into the mix, and any dropoff might not even be noticeable.

If the Yanks extend a QO to Swisher then no way, he's not worth losing a draft pick. I do agree with the "patch and fill" type signing, Adam Laroche is a guy who I would seriously consider.


6. Don't get impatient with the next wave of young talent. It's coming. Kids like Jackie Bradley and Xander Bogaerts and Bryce Brentz are advancing rapidly, with ETAs closer to 2014 than '13. The Sox have, with rare exception, given their kids time to develop; they should continue to hew to that course.


+1. Agreed.


7. Save a few bucks for a rainy day. The Sox didn't have enough flexibility last winter to add a Hiroki Kuroda or Edwin Jackson. That shouldn't be the case moving forward.

Everybody remember how much I wanted Kuroda this offseason? Lav certainly does, I never want us to be in that position again. So much value left on one year deals and we can't even bid.

Nomar
08-29-2012, 11:50 PM
AI, i feel like me and you are the only people who like Upton in these forums.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 12:03 AM
With Miles Head in AA, maybe Oakland might be open to dealing Chris Carter. Guy is a tank.

Pavelb1
08-30-2012, 12:05 AM
I don't think you lose draft picks anymore, the other team just gets a sandwich pick...besides with the Sox sucking they wouldn't lose their pick anyway.

I'm more concerned with the implication that AGon was a 'bad contract'. If the Sox think that was a bad contract then they can kiss my ***. If Mannys contract was a 10, I'd call AGon a 9.,,Crawford 0 of course. Mauer a 3.5.

Edit: They had money for Kuroda and Jackson. Kuroda wasn't interested, and the Sox didn't think enough of jackson.

Pavelb1
08-30-2012, 12:05 AM
With Miles Head in AA, maybe Oakland might be open to dealing Chris Carter. Guy is a tank.

That Brandon Moss guy...why can't we get players like that?

Nomar
08-30-2012, 12:07 AM
That Brandon Moss guy...why can't we get players like that?

Haha were deprived.

AI
08-30-2012, 12:13 AM
I don't think you lose draft picks anymore, the other team just gets a sandwich pick...besides with the Sox sucking they wouldn't lose their pick anyway.

Only top 10 picks are protected, rest can be lost.


I'm more concerned with the implication that AGon was a 'bad contract'. If the Sox think that was a bad contract then they can kiss my ***. If Mannys contract was a 10, I'd call AGon a 9.,,Crawford 0 of course. Mauer a 3.5.

They didn't think A-Gon was a "bad contract" although his decline in power and walks raise a red flag, there is reason for concern. However, Crawford and Beckett combined are a negative 5, so if Gonzo is a positive 9, is $250M+ worth it? Or could you acquire someone like Mauer, trade for Upton and get better bang for your buck.

Pavelb1
08-30-2012, 12:14 AM
Only top 10 picks are protected, rest can be lost.



They didn't think A-Gon was a "bad contract" although his decline in power and walks raise a red flag, there is reason for concern. However, Crawford and Beckett combined are a negative 5, so if Gonzo is a positive 9, is $250M+ worth it? Or could you acquire someone like Mauer, trade for Upton and get better bang for your buck.

I was just quoting Edes article.

edit: And I only give the scale ranking to 20 mill+ contracts. Beckett would be classified as 'lottery ticket'.

Also some weight has to be given to resigning your guys. I was all for resigning Lowell. Sox arn't the Royals and they shouldn't act like the Royals. They can absorb a Lowell, they can absorb a Beckett and a Lackey even. They DECIDED they couldn't/shouldn't absorb a Crawford, and I don't particularly like it, especially given that I wouldn't be surprised if the Red Sox bring in 300 mill a year*....but I understand the decision.

AI
08-30-2012, 12:22 AM
Jon Lester LHP
Clay Buchholz RHP
SP Acquisition
John Lackey RHP
Felix Doubront LHP

Jacoby Ellsbury CF
Dustin Pedroia 2B
Joe Mauer 1B
Justin Upton RF
David Ortiz DH
Will Middlebrooks 3B
Cody Ross LF
Jarrod Saltalamacchia C
Jose Iglesias SS

Is this not a contending a team?

Pavelb1
08-30-2012, 12:24 AM
Jon Lester LHP
Clay Buchholz RHP
SP Acquisition
John Lackey RHP
Felix Doubront LHP

Jacoby Ellsbury CF
Dustin Pedroia 2B
Joe Mauer 1B
Justin Upton RF
David Ortiz DH
Will Middlebrooks 3B
Cody Ross LF
Jarrod Saltalamacchia C
Jose Iglesias SS

Is this not a contending a team?

No one on that starting staff put up an ERA+ over 100 this year. As stacked as that line-up looks. A lot has to go right...mainly no injuries. A non-boneheaded manager would help too.

edit: But it sure is a likable line-up.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 12:25 AM
Jon Lester LHP
Clay Buchholz RHP
SP Acquisition
John Lackey RHP
Felix Doubront LHP

Jacoby Ellsbury CF
Dustin Pedroia 2B
Joe Mauer 1B
Justin Upton RF
David Ortiz DH
Will Middlebrooks 3B
Cody Ross LF
Jarrod Saltalamacchia C
Jose Iglesias SS

Is this not a contending a team?

Hinges on Clay and Lester.

I would rather have us deal Ellsbury still. Also instead of Mauer if we traded for Headley we may block the Yankees from trading for him, which i think they will try to do this offseason.

Pavelb1
08-30-2012, 12:28 AM
Hinges on Clay and Lester.

I would rather have us deal Ellsbury still. Also instead of Mauer if we traded for Headley we may block the Yankees from trading for him, which i think they will try to do this offseason.

Headley has two more years left...how is he not going to cost an arm and a leg? Also it would be buying high again. And where would the Yanks play him?

edit: also, if we arn't making big splashes, then we do need to trade Ellsbury. I don't want to put all our eggs in his basket. If the Sox get beneath the tax and reset it, then I'm all for shelling out to Ells if there are other players who could absorb any regression from him.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 12:31 AM
Headley has two more years left...how is he not going to cost an arm and a leg? Also it would be buying high again. And where would the Yanks play him?

Third and DH ARod. And thats the other thing trading of course, his cost. It was just a replacement for Joe Mauer in AI's situation, i dont really even want to see us in that scenario necessarily.

AI
08-30-2012, 12:33 AM
Headley will cost quite a bit and doesn't fill a hole since WMB plays 3B.

I think Upton makes most sense, since if we don't get him, who is our RF next year? Sweeney? Kalish? They both are 4th OF's to me. A future OF of Brentz/Bradley/Upton is quite sexy.

Pavelb1
08-30-2012, 12:34 AM
Third and DH ARod. And thats the other thing trading of course, his cost. It was just a replacement for Joe Mauer in AI's situation, i dont really even want to see us in that scenario necessarily.

I think our best chance is to play cheap, shop around for mediocre players and strike when opportunity arises. If nothing arises, then just wait on the farm.

I can fill out a decent line-up, but not a decent line-up AND a starting staff AND a bullpen that isn't nitro. Though having a healthy Bailey is quite likable.

Pavelb1
08-30-2012, 12:35 AM
Headley will cost quite a bit and doesn't fill a hole since WMB plays 3B.

I think Upton makes most sense, since if we don't get him, who is our RF next year? Sweeney? Kalish? They both are 4th OF's to me. A future OF of Brentz/Bradley/Upton is quite sexy.

Ross, with a platoon.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 12:37 AM
Upton would be perfect for us. Besides giving up prospects, theres very little risk with him. We would have time to see him perform before we need to extend him.

Pavelb1
08-30-2012, 12:38 AM
Holy ****, Valentine runs this pen like he's drunk.

AI
08-30-2012, 12:40 AM
Ross, with a platoon.

I believe Ross is better suited for LF, from what I've seen this year, he's horrible defensively in RF.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 12:42 AM
I believe Ross is better suited for LF, from what I've seen this year, he's horrible defensively in RF.

He lost us a game against Oakland playing the monster like Helen Keller

AI
08-30-2012, 12:54 AM
2013
Gonzo $21M, Crawford $20M, Beckett $15.75M; Total $56.75M
Mauer $23M, Upton $9.75M; Total $32.75M

We'd still have $24M to spend on a pitcher(s), doubt we do such a thing, but still, this gets at the point I'm trying to make. We could get much better value by spending wisely rather than paying what those 3 were going to make combined. Hell, Minnesota could actually eat a small amount of cash in the deal and things could look even better.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 12:58 AM
2013
Gonzo $21M, Crawford $20M, Beckett $15.75M; Total $56.75M
Mauer $23M, Upton $9.75M; Total $32.75M

We'd still have $24M to spend on a pitcher(s), doubt we do such a thing, but still, this gets at the point I'm trying to make. We could get much better value by spending wisely rather than paying what those 3 were going to make combined. Hell, Minnesota could actually eat a small amount of cash in the deal and things could look even better.

I just cant see us paying Mauer that much.

AI
08-30-2012, 01:01 AM
I just cant see us paying Mauer that much.

Me neither, I'm just saying, there are better ways of spending our money than what we were doing before the trade. I'm sure that if we ever did trade for Mauer, Minnesota would have to eat a small amount of his contract. Say $18M so that his deal is 6/120, much better right? Considering what a player of his caliber would get on the open market, that would be a pretty good deal for us.

Crucis
08-30-2012, 01:02 AM
Jon Lester LHP
Clay Buchholz RHP
SP Acquisition
John Lackey RHP
Felix Doubront LHP

Jacoby Ellsbury CF
Dustin Pedroia 2B
Joe Mauer 1B
Justin Upton RF
David Ortiz DH
Will Middlebrooks 3B
Cody Ross LF
Jarrod Saltalamacchia C
Jose Iglesias SS

Is this not a contending a team?

Because you have a crappy shortstop.

AI
08-30-2012, 01:08 AM
Because you have a crappy shortstop.

He's a bridge to "Happy Hanley"... Also known as Xander :)

Crucis
08-30-2012, 01:11 AM
He's a bridge to "Happy Hanley"... Also known as Xander :)

I'm not terribly confident that Xander will be able to stay at SS. From the balance of reading a number of articles on him, it just seems like it's a hope and a prayer that he'll be able to remain at SS.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 01:12 AM
He's a bridge to "Happy Hanley"... Also known as Xander :)

Hes not gonna stick there. At least we cant count on it.

AI
08-30-2012, 01:16 AM
I'm not terribly confident that Xander will be able to stay at SS. From the balance of reading a number of articles on him, it just seems like it's a hope and a prayer that he'll be able to remain at SS.

Law has been one of the most critical people when it comes to Bogaerts sticking at SS, he recently said that it looks like he'll be able to defy expectations and stick at SS, at least for his first couple of years.

Crucis
08-30-2012, 01:18 AM
He lost us a game against Oakland playing the monster like Helen Keller

How often has Ross played LF in Fenway? Personally, I don't think that the Wall should be that difficult to play, compared to RF. But I can see as how it could be quite intimidating to the inexperienced.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 01:19 AM
Law has been one of the most critical people when it comes to Bogaerts sticking at SS, he recently said that it looks like he'll be able to defy expectations and stick at SS, at least for his first couple of years.

I think he said he "might be able to" stay there despite common belief. A couple years at SS would be nice though because by the time he has to switched his bat should be going full tilt.

Crucis
08-30-2012, 01:22 AM
Law has been one of the most critical people when it comes to Bogaerts sticking at SS, he recently said that it looks like he'll be able to defy expectations and stick at SS, at least for his first couple of years.

That doesn't fill me with any confidence. At least for his first couple of years??? if that were what I thought would happen, I'd move him to another position NOW. IMHO, if they're not dead certain that he'll be able to stay at SS until age starts to degrade his range, then he should be moved ASAP. This sounds like Hanley all over again. Enough of this lack of willingness to crosstrain BS!!! :mad:

Crucis
08-30-2012, 01:25 AM
I believe Ross is better suited for LF, from what I've seen this year, he's horrible defensively in RF.

I also think that he's better suited to LF, but I also think that he's probably horrible defensively no matter where you put him in the field.

And part of me wishes, in spite of his beautiful Fenway swing, that the Sox could find a better rounded OF option instead of Ross.

AI
08-30-2012, 01:25 AM
Reason you can't predict a move or not is because every body is different. What if Xander gets crazy huge? Or what if he stays exactly the same? There is no way of correctly predicting that. Guess time will tell if Xander will be able to stick at SS or not.

AI
08-30-2012, 01:28 AM
I also think that he's better suited to LF, but I also think that he's probably horrible defensively no matter where you put him in the field.

And part of me wishes, in spite of his beautiful Fenway swing, that the Sox could find a better rounded OF option instead of Ross.

Honestly, the OF market leaves a lot to be desired. Bringing back Ross on a 2 year deal until Brentz and others are ready makes sense. Only guy I would target this offseason would be Justin Upton, he is in my eyes, a must-have. Get him before Texas does, this guy will beast in the AL.

Crucis
08-30-2012, 01:33 AM
Honestly, the OF market leaves a lot to be desired. Bringing back Ross on a 2 year deal until Brentz and others are ready makes sense. Only guy I would target this offseason would be Justin Upton, he is in my eyes, a must-have. Get him before Texas does, this guy will beast in the AL.

J Upton doesn't excite me much. For some reason, he reminds me of JD Drew. A player who will put up nice stats, and be a nice complimentary player. But it seems that he'll be awfully costly for a good complimentary player.

Crucis
08-30-2012, 01:35 AM
Reason you can't predict a move or not is because every body is different. What if Xander gets crazy huge? Or what if he stays exactly the same? There is no way of correctly predicting that. Guess time will tell if Xander will be able to stick at SS or not.

And because of that uncertainty, they should be cross-training him NOW. Be prepared for the uncertainty, just in case the worst happens. Don't close your eyes and hope for the best and be unprepared *if* the worst happens.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 01:41 AM
J Upton doesn't excite me much. For some reason, he reminds me of JD Drew. A player who will put up nice stats, and be a nice complimentary player. But it seems that he'll be awfully costly for a good complimentary player.

JD Drew's career OPS is .870, thats better than a complimentary player. In 2009, his WRC+ was higher than Adrian Beltre's this year. He was very underrated.

Upton doesnt walk as much, but he is a better slugger than Drew. Drew hit 30 HRs once in his career, Upton aleady has and could do it easily at Fenway.

Getting Upton now wont be cheap, but it wont be nearly as bad as it wouldve been a year ago. He is a potential star, and if we dont give up the big 3, i think it is a great idea to trade for him.

AI
08-30-2012, 01:44 AM
J Upton doesn't excite me much. For some reason, he reminds me of JD Drew. A player who will put up nice stats, and be a nice complimentary player. But it seems that he'll be awfully costly for a good complimentary player.

Sign me up. According to Fangraphs, Drew came very close to earning his contract and would have exceeded it had he not been injured in 2011. So regardless of all the crap he got, he was actually a very valuable player. Not to mention, we're talking about his age 32-37 seasons (If I'm not mistaken).

Upton just turned 25, we'd have him under contract for 3 more seasons at a very reasonable price ($9.75M in 2013, $14.25M in 2014 and $14.5M in 2015). So when it it's all said and done, we could extend him and have him during his age 28 to X seasons, in other words, his prime. Hitters like him, with his upside, no longer hit the open market.

Crucis
08-30-2012, 01:58 AM
Sign me up. According to Fangraphs, Drew came very close to earning his contract and would have exceeded it had he not been injured in 2011. So regardless of all the crap he got, he was actually a very valuable player. Not to mention, we're talking about his age 32-37 seasons (If I'm not mistaken).

Upton just turned 25, we'd have him under contract for 3 more seasons at a very reasonable price ($9.75M in 2013, $14.25M in 2014 and $14.5M in 2015). So when it it's all said and done, we could extend him and have him during his age 28 to X seasons, in other words, his prime. Hitters like him, with his upside, no longer hit the open market.

As a complimentary player, yes Drew had nice stats, got on base a lot, etc. But I think that his stats were a bit ... soft. I got really tired of seeing him working walks when there were RISP and the hitters behind him were so weak. I know that RBI's is a counting stat and is a weak stat. But there comes a time when you want to see REAL production and runs driven in. I suppose if Drew had batted higher in the lineup and had had some of the other big bats behind him, it would have been different. But JD on the Sox was far too often didn't have strong bats behind him to drive in runs. it was either him or no one. And he'd keep taking walks in critical situations, which look good on paper for OBP, but on the field, resulted in him passing along the responsibility for driving in runs to far less productive hitters.

As for J Upton, the upside is that at least he's a RH hitter, not yet another lefty or switch hitter. And frankly, I don't see why the Dbacks would even consider trading J Upton. he's young, cheap, and controlled. So why ARE they open to trading him? What's the rest of the story?

Nomar
08-30-2012, 02:04 AM
As a complimentary player, yes Drew had nice stats, got on base a lot, etc. But I think that his stats were a bit ... soft. I got really tired of seeing him working walks when there were RISP and the hitters behind him were so weak. I know that RBI's is a counting stat and is a weak stat. But there comes a time when you want to see REAL production and runs driven in. I suppose if Drew had batted higher in the lineup and had had some of the other big bats behind him, it would have been different. But JD on the Sox was far too often didn't have strong bats behind him to drive in runs. it was either him or no one. And he'd keep taking walks in critical situations, which look good on paper for OBP, but on the field, resulted in him passing along the responsibility for driving in runs to far less productive hitters.

As for J Upton, the upside is that at least he's a RH hitter, not yet another lefty or switch hitter. And frankly, I don't see why the Dbacks would even consider trading J Upton. he's young, cheap, and controlled. So why ARE they open to trading him? What's the rest of the story?

Towers has never liked him. I also think a change of scenery would be good for him. Hes been labeled as a bad guy this year there.

elements1985
08-30-2012, 02:12 AM
Not a fan of this list.

If the BRS won't seriously contend in '13 & '14, then how can the FO justify allocating an excess of $14 million to DH (besides to reward a fan favorite)?

And same logic also applies to Cliff Lee: he'll be 37 in two years, commanding a salary of $25 million. This LAD deal evoked the feeling someone paid off an enormous credit card debt ... yet people can't wait to get back out and spend.

Acquiring Justin Upton entails significant prospect implications; so I'd pass. Plus, after seeing his brother operate in TB, I've developed a healthy mistrust for those with the last name 'Upton'.

There are many directions in which this team could go -- but I'd like to continue the detonating process over selling off specs. Kirk Minihane suggested trading Pedroia this winter -- for perhaps a cost-controlled SP -- which is something I'd seriously consider.

Go for the gusto.

AI
08-30-2012, 02:12 AM
And because of that uncertainty, they should be cross-training him NOW. Be prepared for the uncertainty, just in case the worst happens. Don't close your eyes and hope for the best and be unprepared *if* the worst happens.

Reports are he's athletic enough, that he should transition to 3B/OF fairly easily. Why stunt his growth at SS when you don't even know if he'll have to move off the position in the first place?

elements1985
08-30-2012, 02:19 AM
And frankly, I don't see why the Dbacks would even consider trading J Upton. he's young, cheap, and controlled. So why ARE they open to trading him? What's the rest of the story?

I agree 100%. This was the same question I asked myself in the winter of 2010, when the Upton to Boston rumors were swirling (which in hindsight were just used to against the SDP to leverage out Gonzalez)

Bos_Sports4Life
08-30-2012, 02:57 AM
1B- Justin Morneu
Reason- He only has 1 yr left at 14 Mill so little risk is involved and it wouldn't take much to get him here. In 25 games at fenway he has a .375 Avg/.425 OBP, and a .604 SLG so he hits well at fenway. He has also hit well against NY/TB.
In 55 Games against the yankees- .282 AVG, .357 OBP, .549 SLG
In 52 Games against TB- .308 AVG, .352 OBP, .556 SLG

2B- Pedroia

3B- MiddleBrooks

SS- Ciriaco- He's not a starting calliber SS but they need at most a 1 yr stop gap (If Bogaerts Hits AAA pitching, Bring him up later in the yr)

C- Lavarnway- His defense has improved and lets face it, Salty doesn't have much of a glove and Lavarnway should be an upgrade with the stick.

OF- Torii Hunter (2 yrs/23.5 Mill).
OF- Cody Ross (2 yr/22 Mill)
OF- Justin Upton (Hopefully what they can get from ells will lessen the blow to the current farm). Maybe The prospects we get from Ells,Bentz, and Iglesias? No idea.

(Not a good defensive OF but **** happens)

DH- Ortiz- Sign him up for 1 yr 14 Mill with an option for the 2nd yr for 13 Mill that will be picked up if he reaches certain #'s (This May be a lot of money for a 36 yr old DH, But heck..He was an elite producer and they have money to burn)

Bench- Sands/Kalish/Who ever the backup Catcher is, and Ivan De Jesus Jr. as the utility

TRADES-
* Ellsbury for Prospects- Ellsbury has 1 yr left and he's not worth the money he'll be getting, I also don't think he likes playing in Boston (Just a hunch). The prospects received will be a part of the Upton deal.
* Iglesias- He can be a part of the Upton deal hopefully. I'm afraid he'll be a bust and I don't want to see his value drop until he has none left, Like Lars anderson.
* Salty- Not much of a defender and in the end, You want a backup catcher to have a glove. He has 22 HR's this yr and that still has value.
* Lackey- This team is young and the last thing a young team needs is Lackey. If the Redsox had an older/More stable clubhouse? I'd hold on to him. But the red sox are not stable and are getting younger. Trade him to whatever team eats the most of his salary (dodgers?)

Rotation-
1. Lester (I expect a turnaround)
2. Clay (same with clay, Prob go on the DL again and can only expect 170-180 innings but i expect a sub 4 era.
3. They need a solid #3-#4 type guy. Colby lewis could be a bargain since he had surgery.
4. Doubront
5. Rubby Dee La Rosa (Will have to moniter his innings, maybe 150?)

If the Red sox are still in it and rubby is performing they may have to skip over him a couple times, maybe put him on the DL with a "injury"

* Allen Webster Should make his debut sometime next yr also.

Pen-
Set up- Bard (I think he'll turn it around)
Closer- Bailey

* The sox have enough to where they can splurge and over spend on 2 yr deals, The rotation will have question marks, so a strong pen is essential.

Thoughts?

AI
08-30-2012, 04:25 AM
1B- Justin Morneu
Reason- He only has 1 yr left at 14 Mill so little risk is involved and it wouldn't take much to get him here. In 25 games at fenway he has a .375 Avg/.425 OBP, and a .604 SLG so he hits well at fenway. He has also hit well against NY/TB.
In 55 Games against the yankees- .282 AVG, .357 OBP, .549 SLG
In 52 Games against TB- .308 AVG, .352 OBP, .556 SLG

Yes to Morneau, depending on what type of package it would take.


SS- Ciriaco- He's not a starting calliber SS but they need at most a 1 yr stop gap (If Bogaerts Hits AAA pitching, Bring him up later in the yr)

As much as I love Ciriaco, he's playing above his level right now. Mainly weak pop-ups that fall for hits, infield singles, etc. He's a threat to steal, plays good defense at 3B/SS/2B, which is why I think he should be brought back as a utility infielder.


C- Lavarnway- His defense has improved and lets face it, Salty doesn't have much of a glove and Lavarnway should be an upgrade with the stick.

Platoon of Lavarnway and Salty is likely for 2013.


OF- Torii Hunter (2 yrs/23.5 Mill).

No on a 2 year deal for Torii. Most I'd offer is a 1 year deal, include a 2nd year club option and a buyout. Anyways, he wants to stay with the Angels and has said that he would take a paycut to do so.


OF- Cody Ross (2 yr/22 Mill)

Too much money. Willingham got 3 years/$21M and is a much better hitter. 2 years $15M sounds about right for Ross.


OF- Justin Upton (Hopefully what they can get from ells will lessen the blow to the current farm). Maybe The prospects we get from Ells,Bentz, and Iglesias? No idea.

I would absolutely love to get Upton. The D-Backs want 3B/SS/OF and Towers has always had a mancrush on Bard. I'd offer Cecchini, Iglesias, Kalish and Bard. I think that's enough to get it done.


DH- Ortiz- Sign him up for 1 yr 14 Mill with an option for the 2nd yr for 13 Mill that will be picked up if he reaches certain #'s (This May be a lot of money for a 36 yr old DH, But heck..He was an elite producer and they have money to burn)

Honestly, 1 year deal with a 2nd year club option that includes a buyout sounds about right for Ortiz. Thinking 1 year $14M with a 2nd year $16M club option ($1.5M buyout).


Bench- Sands/Kalish/Who ever the backup Catcher is, and Ivan De Jesus Jr. as the utility

Salty C, Sands 1B/LF, Ciriaco 3B/SS/2B and Sweeney OF.


* Ellsbury for Prospects- Ellsbury has 1 yr left and he's not worth the money he'll be getting, I also don't think he likes playing in Boston (Just a hunch).

For some reason I think we keep Ellsbury this year. If we do trade him, a trade with Texas in which we get back Andrus and Justin Grimm makes plenty of sense for both sides.


* Iglesias- He can be a part of the Upton deal hopefully. I'm afraid he'll be a bust and I don't want to see his value drop until he has none left, Like Lars anderson.

Included him in my Upton package, agree.


* Salty- Not much of a defender and in the end, You want a backup catcher to have a glove. He has 22 HR's this yr and that still has value.

Keep him, you won't be able to get much for him after his brutal 2nd half this season.


* Lackey- This team is young and the last thing a young team needs is Lackey. If the Redsox had an older/More stable clubhouse? I'd hold on to him. But the red sox are not stable and are getting younger. Trade him to whatever team eats the most of his salary (dodgers?)

Can't afford to trade him, the rotation needs an innings eater and that's exactly what Lackey is when healthy. He was worth 4+ WAR in 2010, if he can produce that again, he's a valuable commodity so why trade him when his value is at an all-time low?


5. Rubby Dee La Rosa (Will have to moniter his innings, maybe 150?)

People are counting on this guy to be in the rotation next year, but I'm not so sure it's at the start of the season. He pitched 110.1 innings in 2010, 100.2 in 2011 and 13.2 in 2012 as he comes back from TJS. Personally, I believe he'll start at AAA next year.


Allen Webster Should make his debut sometime next yr also.

Not ready, needs to work on his command. Will start in AAA.


Thoughts?

Overall some good ideas, and some not so good ones as well, but overall pretty good. Bailey should absolutely be our closer next year, we did trade Reddick for him so let the man close.

tonyd3b54
08-30-2012, 05:40 AM
if the dbacks are fine picking from iggy, brentz, lavarnway and other lower tier prospects then get upton here now! other wise be careful. boegs is and bradley are off limits right now.

Crucis
08-30-2012, 06:30 AM
Reports are he's athletic enough, that he should transition to 3B/OF fairly easily. Why stunt his growth at SS when you don't even know if he'll have to move off the position in the first place?

AI, that is such a total BS argument. "Stunt his growth" my arse!!! :mad:

It's called being prepared!!! If he's such a great athlete, he should be able to handle some cross training "fairly easily". Better to learn the basics of playing the OF now, rather than look like an incompetent in the Majors, like Soriano when he was switched from 2B to the OF.

If I was a MLB GM, I'd fire ON THE SPOT any person reporting to me that tried to defend no cross-training minor leaguers, PARTICULARLY ones defending not cross training a player in Xander's situation. IMO, it is singularly incompetent to not be prepared in this scenario!!!

bagwell368
08-30-2012, 07:44 AM
Ross doesn't suck with the glove - not at all. After watching Drew play RF anybody looks like an idiot. He can project to being a bit below average in RF.

No to Mauer. Maybe to Morneau. Maybe to Upton. No to Felix.

XB is going to end up in LF or 3B, not SS.

quinnjack
08-30-2012, 08:40 AM
I'm not terribly confident that Xander will be able to stay at SS. From the balance of reading a number of articles on him, it just seems like it's a hope and a prayer that he'll be able to remain at SS.

How many times have we heard this about numerous players? Mike Aviles just this season comes to mind. He can't stick, he can't be an every day MLB SS, but he's posting outstanding defensive numbers. I say let the kid stick at SS until he shows beyond shadow of doubt that he can't handle the position.

quinnjack
08-30-2012, 09:09 AM
If I'm Cherrington I'm looking at 2014 and knowing that I can't give out dumb contracts to guys like LaRoche, Swisher, et al.

To me, in viewing the system and how certain players have progressed thus far, assuming no major injuries, and continued progression, the 2014 Red Sox will/could have Xander Bogaerts, Bryce Brentz, Jackie Bradley, Alex Wilson, Rubby De La Rosa, Brandon Workman, Drake Britton, Matt Barnes, and Aaron Kurcz all contributing. It's an exciting wave of players.

It's not out of the question to also, in '14, see Pat Light in the bullpen as a power arm, potentially Travis Shaw in the mix, and one, or both of Chris Hernandez, and Noe Ramirez in the rotation mix.

What does it all mean? To me it means that there is a plethora of young talent in the system, and to expect them ALL to succeed in a big way, while possible, is unlikely.

Be it Felix Hernandez, Tim Lincecum, Yovani Gallardo, Josh Johnson, et al. I think the focus should be, and will be, acquiring a top of the rotation starter. I'm personally a big Lincecum fan, and to buy low on him makes sense. My guess though is it's Johnson from Miami for a package like Noe Ramirez, Garin Cecchini, and Keury De La Cruz?

My off-season hit list/wish list:

1) The aforementioned SP
2) Re-sign Cody Ross (3 years), and David Ortiz (1 year)
3) Sell high on Saltalamacchia
4) Sign Mike Napoli, 3 years, $30 MM +/-

2013:

1. Ellsbury, CF
2. Pedroia, 2B
3. Middlebrooks, 3B
4. Ortiz, DH
5. Napoli, 1B
6. Ross, RF
7. Kalish, LF
8. Lavarnway, C
9. Aviles/Iglesis, SS

Rotation: Josh Johnson, Jon Lester, Clay Buchholz, Felix Doubront, De La Rosa/Morales.

2014:

1. Jacoby Ellsbury, CF (Re-signed 6 years/$102 MM)
2. Dustin Pedroia, 2B
3. Will Middlebrooks, 3B
4. Nelson Cruz, DH (3 years/$36 MM)
5. Mike Napoli, 1B
6. Brentz/Bradley, RF
7. Cody Ross, LF
8. Ryan Lavarnway, C
9. Xander Bogaerts, SS

Rotation: Johnson, Lester, Buchholz, De La Rosa, Workman/Barnes/Hernanez

Bullpen: Brian Wilson, Melancon, Kurcz, Light, Morales, Bard, Wilson, Carpenter, Miller, etc.

BGeer091
08-30-2012, 09:34 AM
I actually believe we could get both Felix and Upton.

Doubront, Kalish, Barnes, Vincio, Jacobs, Stolmy for Felix, a salary dump

Brentz, Iggy, Cecchini for Upton

Station 13
08-30-2012, 09:38 AM
Getting Logan Morrison and his twitter account would be worth 10WAR next season.

Ellsbury gotta finish the year strong. If he does, offer him an extension. If he refuses deal him for Mike Minor if Atlanta is up for that.

Boston-Born
08-30-2012, 09:45 AM
I actually believe we could get both Felix and Upton.

Doubront, Kalish, Barnes, Vincio, Jacobs, Stolmy for Felix, a salary dump

Brentz, Iggy, Cecchini for Upton

Bye bye Red Sox Farm System.

SoxFan0407
08-30-2012, 10:54 AM
There's not one player out there worth losing our top prospects for. Including Felix. I'd much rather spend a little of the money we just saved, only in one or two year deals, than lose the players we need to compete in the future.

I still think Lackey is going to come back strong. He may not get the wins do to the lack of power in the Sox lineup as it stands...but I bet you anything he pitches well. He's never pitched one healthy pitch for the Sox. I for one am excited to see him pitch for the Red Sox again.

I also think we should re-sign Dice-K to a one year deal. No team is going to give him a long term contract after a season lost to TJ and only one good start since returning. If his last start is any indication of how he may pitch moving forward a one year deal would be acceptable for me to give him another shot. BUT, he can't recieve anywhere NEAR the salary he got in his last deal. I could live with one year 4-6mil.

2013 Rotation

1. Lester
2. Buccholz
3. Doubront
4. Lackey
5. Dice-K

I would much rather start a season with this rotation than dump the farm (if not one or two of the guys listed in that rotation as well), just for one arm.

TragicallyHip
08-30-2012, 11:31 AM
AI, i feel like me and you are the only people who like Upton in these forums.

I'm definitely in on Upton. I really hope the Sox make a push for him.

BGeer091
08-30-2012, 11:40 AM
There isn't a single pitcher in our system as good as Felix. We need a true ace. Our best pitching prospects highest ceilings are #2's. I'd do WMB, Doubront, Barnes, + for Felix

Upton to me is also a must as long as it doesn't cost us Xander, Bradley, De La Rosa, Barnes or Webster. A Brentz, Bard, Iggy+ a B spec deal is perfectly fine with me.

TragicallyHip
08-30-2012, 11:51 AM
Ross doesn't suck with the glove - not at all. After watching Drew play RF anybody looks like an idiot. He can project to being a bit below average in RF.

No to Mauer. Maybe to Morneau. Maybe to Upton. No to Felix.

XB is going to end up in LF or 3B, not SS.

Agreed, Drew was a nasty RF'er and I don't know why people so easily dismiss that. Sure he didn't make flashy plays but that's because he was always in the right spot and didn't need to make the diving catch.

I also agree that XB ends up at 3rd which is why I'd like to see WMB play some 1st in Winter Ball/Spring Training and see how he handles it.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 11:56 AM
I actually could see us trading for Josh Johnson in the Offseason.

Ellsbury + Shaw for Josh Johnson + Jose Fernandez/Jacob Turner + Marcell Ozuna

MiamiBoy77
08-30-2012, 11:59 AM
A 2014 of

C: Lavarnway
1B: Middlebrooks
2B: Pedroia
SS: Andrus
3B: Xander
LF: Brentz
CF: Bradley
RF: Upton

lineup:

Andrus
Pedroia
Upton
Middlebrooks
Ortiz (Final year)
Xander
Lavarnway
Brentz
Bradley

Buchholz
Doubront
Rubby
Webster
Grimm/Barnes

:)

homie564
08-30-2012, 12:00 PM
There isn't a single pitcher in our system as good as Felix. We need a true ace. Our best pitching prospects highest ceilings are #2's. I'd do WMB, Doubront, Barnes, + for Felix

Upton to me is also a must as long as it doesn't cost us Xander, Bradley, De La Rosa, Barnes or Webster. A Brentz, Bard, Iggy+ a B spec deal is perfectly fine with me.

Barnes absolutely has a #1 ceiling.. De La Rosa I've also heard could if he could work on his stamina.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 12:01 PM
Barnes absolutely has a #1 ceiling.. De La Rosa I've also heard could if he could work on his stamina.

Barnes has a projection of #2 so i guess the ceiling would be #1.

Bos_Sports4Life
08-30-2012, 12:50 PM
Yes to Morneau, depending on what type of package it would take.

I didn't figure it would be much considering he has 1 yr left on his deal and has had issues to top it off.



As much as I love Ciriaco, he's playing above his level right now. Mainly weak pop-ups that fall for hits, infield singles, etc. He's a threat to steal, plays good defense at 3B/SS/2B, which is why I think he should be brought back as a utility infielder.


No doubt, His walk rate is low and no way he keeps the avg up to maintain his obp. But i was hoping bogearts would be ready late in '13.



Platoon of Lavarnway and Salty is likely for 2013.


I'd give lavarnway 66% of the starts, I'd rather have a catcher on the roster with a legit glove and neither have one.




No on a 2 year deal for Torii. Most I'd offer is a 1 year deal, include a 2nd year club option and a buyout. Anyways, he wants to stay with the Angels and has said that he would take a paycut to do so.

I think he'll get 2 yrs, He'll end up being a 4.0 WAR player and is a good clubhouse guy to top it off.

I don't mind the red sox over paying anually as they have the money to do so as long as they keep deals to 1-2 yr deals.





I would absolutely love to get Upton. The D-Backs want 3B/SS/OF and Towers has always had a mancrush on Bard. I'd offer Cecchini, Iglesias, Kalish and Bard. I think that's enough to get it done.

I think they'd need atleast 1 blue chip guy.

His career on the road scares me a bit but he should mash at fenway.




For some reason I think we keep Ellsbury this year. If we do trade him, a trade with Texas in which we get back Andrus and Justin Grimm makes plenty of sense for both sides.

With Bogaerts coming up in late '13 or '14 and they move him to 3rd where is Middlebrooks projected to go? LF?





Can't afford to trade him, the rotation needs an innings eater and that's exactly what Lackey is when healthy. He was worth 4+ WAR in 2010, if he can produce that again, he's a valuable commodity so why trade him when his value is at an all-time low?

He still had a ERA+ of 99 and he's 2 yrs removed from that. I dont expect 200+ innings/fringe 4 era...I expect 150 innings/fringe 5 era.

His production is just not worth the baggage he'll bring.



People are counting on this guy to be in the rotation next year, but I'm not so sure it's at the start of the season. He pitched 110.1 innings in 2010, 100.2 in 2011 and 13.2 in 2012 as he comes back from TJS. Personally, I believe he'll start at AAA next year.

The innings limmit for him was around 170 last season. Just keep an eye on ip/pitch count.

I'd be surprised if hes not up by sometime early next season




Not ready, needs to work on his command. Will start in AAA.

I dont see him up either to start the yr. I think of him as more of a darkhorse to start but will be up later in the yr.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 01:07 PM
How many times have we heard this about numerous players? Mike Aviles just this season comes to mind. He can't stick, he can't be an every day MLB SS, but he's posting outstanding defensive numbers. I say let the kid stick at SS until he shows beyond shadow of doubt that he can't handle the position.

Mike aviles isnt 19 years old and still growing, theres the difference.

quinnjack
08-30-2012, 01:17 PM
Mike aviles isnt 19 years old and still growing, theres the difference.

A-Rod was in 96 and he played SS for what, 10 seasons?

Nomar
08-30-2012, 01:22 PM
A-Rod was in 96 and he played SS for what, 10 seasons?

A-Rod was a great defensive SS, Bogaerts is solid, but not to A-Rod's extent. Maybe he can stick there for a couple of years max, but not forever.

quinnjack
08-30-2012, 01:22 PM
A-Rod was a great defensive SS, Bogaerts is solid, but not to A-Rod's extent. Maybe he can stick there for a couple of years max, but not forever.

Right. You must watch Bogaerts play a lot? Have an advanced scouting background... Or?

AI
08-30-2012, 01:23 PM
I think he sticks for a couple of years then gets moved to LF.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 01:36 PM
Right. You must watch Bogaerts play a lot? Have an advanced scouting background... Or?

Can you not read scouting reports? God damn i know youre a fan but everyone is trying to be realistic. Iglesias might hit .300 next year too then.

quinnjack
08-30-2012, 01:52 PM
Can you not read scouting reports? God damn i know youre a fan but everyone is trying to be realistic. Iglesias might hit .300 next year too then.

Sure, but scouting reports are correct, what, 20% of the time? 30%?

I live just outside of Portland, and have season tickets to the Sea Dogs. The eye test (having watched baseball my entire life) tells me he can play the position. I'd rather go by that than a scouting report that I don't particularly trust.

avrpatsfan
08-30-2012, 01:52 PM
AI, i feel like me and you are the only people who like Upton in these forums.
I like Justin Upton a lot. Not BJ Upton though.

I think Upton would rake at Fenway.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 02:01 PM
I like Justin Upton a lot. Not BJ Upton though.

I think Upton would rake at Fenway.

Same, but from what ive read hes bulked up too much, lowering his bat speed, making him pull the ball less along with losing power. That seems like a fixable issue over the offseason with corrections to his diet/workout regimen.

avrpatsfan
08-30-2012, 02:05 PM
Same, but from what ive read hes bulked up too much, lowering his bat speed, making him pull the ball less along with losing power. That seems like a fixable issue over the offseason with corrections to his diet/workout regimen.
Maybe a lighter bat.

Nomar
08-30-2012, 02:09 PM
Maybe a lighter bat.

Maybe, but they probably would rather have him increase his bat speed with his current bat. Idk how lol but thats my guess

Ares
08-30-2012, 03:23 PM
Hiroki Kuroda is trash. That's all.

bagwell368
08-30-2012, 06:46 PM
Comments on XB not staying at SS:

http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/07/02/scouting-report-xander-bogaerts-ss/

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/8/10/3234094/minor-league-prospect-note-xander-bogaerts-ss-boston-red-sox

http://thebaseballhaven.mlblogs.com/tag/xander-bogaerts/

http://soxprospects.com/players/bogaerts-xander.htm


I'm all for XB at SS for a few years, in part so we can move on from Iglesias.

xnick5757
08-30-2012, 07:26 PM
what would it take to land upton you think?

AI
08-30-2012, 10:19 PM
http://bostonglobe.com/sports/2012/08/29/red-sox-owners-may-believe-theo-epstein-deserves-more-blame/3h8zgKRaUaJYy6msgCspCL/story.html

Ohh how I hate this guy, loves to stir up crap.

GreatBeardOfZeu
08-30-2012, 10:32 PM
Ohh how I hate this guy, loves to stir up crap. :facepalm: I freakin hate shaughnessy

AI
08-30-2012, 10:45 PM
I e-mailed everyone Wednesday to get their take on my theory. I asked Henry, Werner, and Lucchino if they would like to see Epstein get more blame. I asked Epstein if he believes this is how his old bosses feel.

Henry did not respond. Epstein responded but had nothing to offer on the record. Lucchino sent back, No comment. Werner wrote, I cant believe you are asking that seriously, Dan. Anything we would comment to you would be distorted.

So he claims they are irked yet none of them commented, do these people not have editors? I mean, today's media is pretty awful.

Nomar
08-31-2012, 02:15 AM
Hes a joke, hes ugly, and yet makes a lot of money. 'merica!

AI
08-31-2012, 02:54 AM
He looks like the leprechaun from Lucky Charms.

Nomar
08-31-2012, 02:56 AM
He looks like the leprechaun from Lucky Charms.

That leprechaun is a LOT better looking.

ruckus16969
08-31-2012, 09:25 AM
Not a fan of this list.

If the BRS won't seriously contend in '13 & '14, then how can the FO justify allocating an excess of $14 million to DH (besides to reward a fan favorite)?

And same logic also applies to Cliff Lee: he'll be 37 in two years, commanding a salary of $25 million. This LAD deal evoked the feeling someone paid off an enormous credit card debt ... yet people can't wait to get back out and spend.

Acquiring Justin Upton entails significant prospect implications; so I'd pass. Plus, after seeing his brother operate in TB, I've developed a healthy mistrust for those with the last name 'Upton'.

There are many directions in which this team could go -- but I'd like to continue the detonating process over selling off specs. Kirk Minihane suggested trading Pedroia this winter -- for perhaps a cost-controlled SP -- which is something I'd seriously consider.

Go for the gusto.

Exactly right. But if they plan on getting some guys and making a good honest run then you got to keep him. I think he leaves anyways. I don't think he is happy here anymore

bagwell368
08-31-2012, 09:57 AM
Ha ha! Too funny. I just got done reading up on Theo's first departure. Shank was front and center as the mouth piece for LL as he defamed and belittled Theo - and was lambasted by writers across the country for doing so.

Then fast forward to TF getting the bums rush, and now this garbage.

Face it. LL is indeed all over, around, and inside everything the Sox do - including defaming those that have left. I have zero doubt that it's LL that had TF's medical history made public.

You can put fresh lipstick on the pig, but until you kill the pig and roast him, the smell is never going to clear. LL must be removed, and the sooner the better.

bagwell368
08-31-2012, 10:01 AM
That leprechaun is a LOT better looking.

I dunno, the LC cartoon character looks like an impish crazed kid.

Shank looks like a crazed adult with about 3 oz of Big Mac grease on his face, and the nose of someone that drinks a bit too much.

AuSox
08-31-2012, 10:09 AM
what would it take to land upton you think?

With what they were asking at the deadline, to make the deal happen I think you would need to start with 2 of Middlebrooks, Bradley, Bogaerts and Barnes. Then probably two more solid/good prospects (Jacobs, Workman, Pimentel, Britton, Vinicio, De La Cruz, Hazelbaker). If they weren't asking for elite prospects Upton would already be on a new team, but the price they are asking is astronomical. There is no chance we could make a deal without at least 1 of the blue chippers.

The other thing I think the Sox need to take into consideration is why would Arizona even consider trading him? It has nothing to do with talent, contract or adding pieces to the team, its all because of the relationship he has with ownership. Is that really the type of guy we want to bring into the clubhouse after everything that has happened over the last two years? To me its not worth the price or the potential headache to acquire him.

Then you have to add in the fact that he reportedly has the Red Sox as part of his no trade clause. So he either may not even accept a trade to Boston, or he may demand a new contract which would reduce part of his appeal of being under a team friendly contract for the next few seasons.

Don't get me wrong, I love his talent and I enjoy watching him play, but I just don't think its worth it.

todu82
08-31-2012, 10:12 AM
If we are truly going to re-build I can't see us getting any big name players this off-season. I think we fill holes with mid-tier players but I think the days of this team making a splash in the winter free agent and trade market are over for now.

bagwell368
08-31-2012, 10:15 AM
With what they were asking at the deadline, to make the deal happen I think you would need to start with 2 of Middlebrooks, Bradley, Bogaerts and Barnes. Then probably two more solid/good prospects (Jacobs, Workman, Pimentel, Britton, Vinicio, De La Cruz, Hazelbaker). If they weren't asking for elite prospects Upton would already be on a new team, but the price they are asking is astronomical. There is no chance we could make a deal without at least 1 of the blue chippers.

The other thing I think the Sox need to take into consideration is why would Arizona even consider trading him? It has nothing to do with talent, contract or adding pieces to the team, its all because of the relationship he has with ownership. Is that really the type of guy we want to bring into the clubhouse after everything that has happened over the last two years? To me its not worth the price or the potential headache to acquire him.

Then you have to add in the fact that he reportedly has the Red Sox as part of his no trade clause. So he either may not even accept a trade to Boston, or he may demand a new contract which would reduce part of his appeal of being under a team friendly contract for the next few seasons.

Don't get me wrong, I love his talent and I enjoy watching him play, but I just don't think its worth it.

Too much. WMB, Iglesias, Workman, Marrero, Wilson is more like it, and that won't be enough. Move on.

Station 13
08-31-2012, 10:30 AM
I don't get the boner some you have for Upton. He had 1 really good season. 1!
He isn't putting this team on top.

ruckus16969
08-31-2012, 07:57 PM
I don't get the boner some you have for Upton. He had 1 really good season. 1!
He isn't putting this team on top.

I don't either. I like him. But not crazy about him

lucastai
09-03-2012, 10:52 AM
Had a few interesting off season ideas:

With the trade of beckett, crawford, and gonzo, we have a lot more money to spend. although cherington stated that we need to remain disciplined in the FA market, i do believe we will spend our way back to where we were in order to keep butts in the seats of fenway.

Combined contracts coming off the books from just gonzo, crawford and beckett: 59 mil

current lineup:
LF Ciriaco
CF Podsednik
2B Pedroia
RF Ross
3B Gomez
C Lavarnway
DH Aviles
1B Loney
SS Iglesias

we need to sign players this offseason. i like justin uptown, torii hunter, and josh hamilton. keep loney for next year (re sign him as he has a huge upside) and keep salty at C. dh hunter and possibly sign edwin jackson and another sp to help out the rotation. opening day lineup 2013 could look like this:

CF Ellsbury
2B Pedroia
RF Upton
LF Hamilton
DH Hunter
3B Middlebrooks
1B Loney
C Saltalamacchia
SS Aviles/ Ciriaco

roatation:

lester
doubront
jackson
lackey
dice k/ aceves


thoughts?

Crucis
09-03-2012, 05:17 PM
Had a few interesting off season ideas:

With the trade of beckett, crawford, and gonzo, we have a lot more money to spend. although cherington stated that we need to remain disciplined in the FA market, i do believe we will spend our way back to where we were in order to keep butts in the seats of fenway.

Combined contracts coming off the books from just gonzo, crawford and beckett: 59 mil

current lineup:
LF Ciriaco
CF Podsednik
2B Pedroia
RF Ross
3B Gomez
C Lavarnway
DH Aviles
1B Loney
SS Iglesias

we need to sign players this offseason. i like justin uptown, torii hunter, and josh hamilton. keep loney for next year (re sign him as he has a huge upside) and keep salty at C. dh hunter and possibly sign edwin jackson and another sp to help out the rotation. opening day lineup 2013 could look like this:

CF Ellsbury
2B Pedroia
RF Upton
LF Hamilton
DH Hunter
3B Middlebrooks
1B Loney
C Saltalamacchia
SS Aviles/ Ciriaco

roatation:

lester
doubront
jackson
lackey
dice k/ aceves


thoughts?


We all caught this first few times you posted it. You don't need to repeatedly post your comments. :rolleyes:

RedSoxtober
09-04-2012, 09:08 AM
That Brandon Moss guy...why can't we get players like that?

Worse: Crisp, Moss, Reddick, Kottaras. That's who beat the Sox in OAK.

ricomactaco
09-04-2012, 12:18 PM
Had a few interesting off season ideas:

With the trade of beckett, crawford, and gonzo, we have a lot more money to spend. although cherington stated that we need to remain disciplined in the FA market, i do believe we will spend our way back to where we were in order to keep butts in the seats of fenway.

Combined contracts coming off the books from just gonzo, crawford and beckett: 59 mil

current lineup:
LF Ciriaco
CF Podsednik
2B Pedroia
RF Ross
3B Gomez
C Lavarnway
DH Aviles
1B Loney
SS Iglesias

we need to sign players this offseason. i like justin uptown, torii hunter, and josh hamilton. keep loney for next year (re sign him as he has a huge upside) and keep salty at C. dh hunter and possibly sign edwin jackson and another sp to help out the rotation. opening day lineup 2013 could look like this:

CF Ellsbury
2B Pedroia
RF Upton
LF Hamilton
DH Hunter
3B Middlebrooks
1B Loney
C Saltalamacchia
SS Aviles/ Ciriaco

roatation:

lester
doubront
jackson
lackey
dice k/ aceves


thoughts?

Definately wouldnt mind E Jackson being signed to a short term deal but no to Upton ( would cost too much in talent), Hunter and Hamilton. All are too much money. I would prefer the money be spent on S pitching if possible

Crucis
09-04-2012, 12:30 PM
Had a few interesting off season ideas:

With the trade of beckett, crawford, and gonzo, we have a lot more money to spend. although cherington stated that we need to remain disciplined in the FA market, i do believe we will spend our way back to where we were in order to keep butts in the seats of fenway.

Combined contracts coming off the books from just gonzo, crawford and beckett: 59 mil

current lineup:
LF Ciriaco
CF Podsednik
2B Pedroia
RF Ross
3B Gomez
C Lavarnway
DH Aviles
1B Loney
SS Iglesias

we need to sign players this offseason. i like justin uptown, torii hunter, and josh hamilton. keep loney for next year (re sign him as he has a huge upside) and keep salty at C. dh hunter and possibly sign edwin jackson and another sp to help out the rotation. opening day lineup 2013 could look like this:

CF Ellsbury
2B Pedroia
RF Upton
LF Hamilton
DH Hunter
3B Middlebrooks
1B Loney
C Saltalamacchia
SS Aviles/ Ciriaco

roatation:

lester
doubront
jackson
lackey
dice k/ aceves


thoughts?


1. You forgot Buchholz. He should be in the rotation.

2. I have no problem with E Jackson, but I'm not sure that it'd be wise for the Sox to lock themselves into a more than 2 yr deal with any starter who isn't a close to the top of the rotation starter. And I don't think that most people see EJ as a #1 or #2. If the Sox could get him for 2 yrs and reasonable money, Ok maybe that'd be a good deal.

3. Hamilton. Not interested if the going price is around $25M/yr for 6+ yrs. That's too much for a player of his age and relative fragility. If the market for him comes down to the point that the Sox could get him for about $20M/yr and 4 yrs, that might be worth it.

4. J Upton: Too expensive to acquire in trade for a player who isn't a sure thing middle of the order slugger.

5. Hunter: Not really interested in him, and certainly not for DH. I'd rather see Ortiz back there.

6. Ellsbury: Let him go. Stop being emotionally attached top him. He's not going to be close to worth his contract. he's a fragile speed player, not a sure thing, healthy slugger... which is the only type of position player I'd pay the kind of money that Ells and Boras are looking for.

Nomar
09-04-2012, 02:21 PM
1. You forgot Buchholz. He should be in the rotation.

2. I have no problem with E Jackson, but I'm not sure that it'd be wise for the Sox to lock themselves into a more than 2 yr deal with any starter who isn't a close to the top of the rotation starter. And I don't think that most people see EJ as a #1 or #2. If the Sox could get him for 2 yrs and reasonable money, Ok maybe that'd be a good deal.

3. Hamilton. Not interested if the going price is around $25M/yr for 6+ yrs. That's too much for a player of his age and relative fragility. If the market for him comes down to the point that the Sox could get him for about $20M/yr and 4 yrs, that might be worth it.

4. J Upton: Too expensive to acquire in trade for a player who isn't a sure thing middle of the order slugger.

5. Hunter: Not really interested in him, and certainly not for DH. I'd rather see Ortiz back there.

6. Ellsbury: Let him go. Stop being emotionally attached top him. He's not going to be close to worth his contract. he's a fragile speed player, not a sure thing, healthy slugger... which is the only type of position player I'd pay the kind of money that Ells and Boras are looking for.

His 2011 season was, youve completely given up on him because hes going through a tough year. Its just like HanRam. He was in a bad situation, left, and then produced very well. Upton would hit well for us, definitely capable of hitting in the middle of the order. We dont notice but Upton has it rough. Towers doesnt like him and he gets booed at home. Not a good situation for him.

Crucis
09-04-2012, 04:39 PM
His 2011 season was, youve completely given up on him because hes going through a tough year. Its just like HanRam. He was in a bad situation, left, and then produced very well. Upton would hit well for us, definitely capable of hitting in the middle of the order. We dont notice but Upton has it rough. Towers doesnt like him and he gets booed at home. Not a good situation for him.

RA, J Upton just doesn't excite me. I see him as more likely to be like JD Drew than Hamilton or Manny. And I don't think that you flush the kind of prospects that the Dbacks will want for a Drew-like player. And I stand by saying that 1 stellar year does not constitute proof that a player is a middle of the order slugger. If that was true, Ellsbury would qualify.

Nomar
09-04-2012, 04:52 PM
RA, J Upton just doesn't excite me. I see him as more likely to be like JD Drew than Hamilton or Manny. And I don't think that you flush the kind of prospects that the Dbacks will want for a Drew-like player. And I stand by saying that 1 stellar year does not constitute proof that a player is a middle of the order slugger. If that was true, Ellsbury would qualify.

It wouldnt take Bogaerts, Barnes, or Bradley to get him in all probability. Anyone else is worth the price IMO.

greenwell39
09-04-2012, 05:21 PM
It wouldnt take Bogaerts, Barnes, or Bradley to get him in all probability. Anyone else is worth the price IMO.

I agree. I think something along the lines of Kalish, Iglesias and Ranaudo might get close, IMO.

Nomar
09-04-2012, 06:21 PM
I agree. I think something along the lines of Kalish, Iglesias and Ranaudo might get close, IMO.

Nah. I would say Brentz has to be in there.

bagwell368
09-04-2012, 08:00 PM
Enough with Justin Upton.

His career adjusted slash is: .272/.351/.467 (only one really good year so far, below average this year)

He plays in a weaker league, in a very hitter friendly park

He's fast, but not an elite base stealer (CS% too high)

He's a good fielder, but not a great one.

In a 9k PA career (so he's 1/3 through today) with no decline phase he's about a 37 rWAR player - or about 1/2 a HOF - or not as good as Tim Salmon, Reggie Sanders, J. D. Drew, or Jessie Barfield

This THIS is the guy you want to open the Sox farm system to get?

If he's so ****ing great, why is Arizona shopping him all the time?

Go do a google for him and the "c" word - lots of Arizona fans have a whole lot bad to say about the guy.

I'd much rather be careful and make measured moves on trades and FA, and only open up the spigots for really great players, and Upton isn't one of them.

Crucis
09-04-2012, 08:41 PM
Enough with Justin Upton.

His career adjusted slash is: .272/.351/.467 (only one really good year so far, below average this year)

He plays in a weaker league, in a very hitter friendly park

He's fast, but not an elite base stealer (CS% too high)

He's a good fielder, but not a great one.

In a 9k PA career (so he's 1/3 through today) with no decline phase he's about a 37 rWAR player - or about 1/2 a HOF - or not as good as Tim Salmon, Reggie Sanders, J. D. Drew, or Jessie Barfield

This THIS is the guy you want to open the Sox farm system to get?

If he's so ****ing great, why is Arizona shopping him all the time?

Go do a google for him and the "c" word - lots of Arizona fans have a whole lot bad to say about the guy.

I'd much rather be careful and make measured moves on trades and FA, and only open up the spigots for really great players, and Upton isn't one of them.

Right there with ya, Bags. JU just isn't a proven slugger in my book. And he has enough of a track record to question whether he'll ever be one. JU looks like a nice OF-er to have to pair up with a proven slugger, but not the slugger himself. He's the JD Drew to Manny on the 2007 Sox... a good player who would make useful contributions, but not really worth opening up the farm to acquire.

AuSox
09-05-2012, 09:57 AM
It wouldnt take Bogaerts, Barnes, or Bradley to get him in all probability. Anyone else is worth the price IMO.


I agree. I think something along the lines of Kalish, Iglesias and Ranaudo might get close, IMO.

Don't you think if Arizona was willing to take anything less than a monster package that he would already be on another team? It will take at least one, but more likely two of the elite guys (Bogaerts, Bradley, Barnes and Middlebrooks). If it only took a package of B prospects every team in baseball would be willing to give them up for a young, potential superstar RF with a very reasonable contract. He absolutely wouldn't be worth a package of two A and two B prospects, but if he does get traded that is what some team will be willing to give up.

Nomar
09-05-2012, 10:03 AM
Don't you think if Arizona was willing to take anything less than a monster package that he would already be on another team? It will take at least one, but more likely two of the elite guys (Bogaerts, Bradley, Barnes and Middlebrooks). If it only took a package of B prospects every team in baseball would be willing to give them up for a young, potential superstar RF with a very reasonable contract. He absolutely wouldn't be worth a package of two A and two B prospects, but if he does get traded that is what some team will be willing to give up.

All i can say is youre wrong about how much it would take. All three of those guys project to be just a valuable as upton. Not have ceilings, but project to be. I think you are overplaying Upton's value.

AuSox
09-05-2012, 12:07 PM
All i can say is youre wrong about how much it would take. All three of those guys project to be just a valuable as upton. Not have ceilings, but project to be. I think you are overplaying Upton's value.

Its not Upton's value that is the issue, its what Arizona is actually asking for that is the issue. They aren't asking for fair value, they are asking for a monster package for their most talented and marketable player. If all they were asking was fair value (which I think is what your evaluation is close to) then he would be on a contending team right now in the middle of the playoff race. Instead Arizona's GM has maintained that all discussions about Upton have been initiated by other teams and they would only move him if they were blown away. I believe all 29 other teams checked in on him before the deadline and no team has even been rumored to being close to trading for him, so what does that tell you? If you have 29 teams interested and nobody even comes close to a deal that means the asking price is way too high. Your evaluation is closer to Upton's true value, but I believe mine is closer to what Arizona is actually asking, and that is what matters. In the end I don't think they trade him at all because the fan backlash for anything less than a huge haul would be immense.

bagwell368
09-05-2012, 12:12 PM
I am disinterested in what some other mook will pay.

I don't want Upton, even if its just his contract, adding top flight talent to the scale is only going to blow it up in our faces.

The guy isn't Mantle or even Edmonds. He's not Juan Gonzalez, but he might be Jeff Francoeur (without the arm).

Just another pretty boy on a magazine cover. Walk away.

Crucis
09-05-2012, 12:16 PM
Its not Upton's value that is the issue, its what Arizona is actually asking for that is the issue. They aren't asking for fair value, they are asking for a monster package for their most talented and marketable player. If all they were asking was fair value (which I think is what your evaluation is close to) then he would be on a contending team right now in the middle of the playoff race. Instead Arizona's GM has maintained that all discussions about Upton have been initiated by other teams and they would only move him if they were blown away. I believe all 31 other teams checked in on him before the deadline and no team has even been rumored to being close to trading for him, so what does that tell you? If you have 31 teams interested and nobody even comes close to a deal that means the asking price is way too high. Your evaluation is closer to Upton's true value, but I believe mine is closer to what Arizona is actually asking, and that is what matters. In the end I don't think they trade him at all because the fan backlash for anything less than a huge haul would be immense.

Just an FYI... there are only 30 teams in MLB, so it should be "all 29 other teams". ;)

bagwell368
09-05-2012, 12:19 PM
Just an FYI... there are only 30 teams in MLB, so it should be "all 29 other teams". ;)

The hell you say! Just because the Coeur d'Alene Survivalists and Texarcana Good 'ol Boys are new franchises doesn't mean we shouldn't count them!

AuSox
09-05-2012, 12:20 PM
I am disinterested in what some other mook will pay.

I don't want Upton, even if its just his contract, adding top flight talent to the scale is only going to blow it up in our faces.

The guy isn't Mantle or even Edmonds. He's not Juan Gonzalez, but he might be Jeff Francoeur (without the arm).

Just another pretty boy on a magazine cover. Walk away.

I 100% agree. I think he will be just like his brother, hugely talented but never really live up to his potential. He isn't worth the resources or potential headache he could bring. Just let the young guys we have develop and they could contribute just as much in the future.

AuSox
09-05-2012, 12:20 PM
Just an FYI... there are only 30 teams in MLB, so it should be "all 29 other teams". ;)

Sorry, into football season already

Crucis
09-05-2012, 12:37 PM
I 100% agree. I think he will be just like his brother, hugely talented but never really live up to his potential. He isn't worth the resources or potential headache he could bring. Just let the young guys we have develop and they could contribute just as much in the future.

I also agree. Not worth the cost. I suspect that both Uptons will be under-performers their entire careers. Let someone else pay for their under-performance.

Crucis
09-05-2012, 12:38 PM
The hell you say! Just because the Coeur d'Alene Survivalists and Texarcana Good 'ol Boys are new franchises doesn't mean we shouldn't count them!

:laugh: