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View Full Version : Why do +/- stats hate Carmelo?



Chronz
08-28-2012, 03:52 PM
I dont know if hes overtaken Bron/Kobe as the games most polarizing player today, but I do feel like he has considering those guys have at least put to rest many of the demons that hecklers have haunted them with. With Melo there is still alot of negative stigmas that we arent quite sure if they are real or not.

Statistically speaking, Melo has never ranked among the truly elite players, but it gets even worse when you break down the +/- effect he has on his teams.



----------------------------------------------------------------

Raw +/- differentials over the year.


03-04: -0.1
The Nuggets were +4.9 on offense but 5.9pts worse on defense.


04-05: +1.5
Again +3.3 on Offense but 1.9pts worse on defense:


05-06: +1.3
+3 on O, but 1.7pts worse on defense


06-07: + .6
Im beginning to sense a theme here, +6.6 on Offense, 6.0pts worse on defense


07-08: - 3.4
+1.3 offense, 4.7PTS worse on defense


08-09: +7.8
+7.6 on Offense AND .1 pt better on defense. So Melo bucks the trend, keep this year in mind.


09-10: +3.5
+4.6 on Offense, 1.1PT worse on defense.


10-11: TRADE YEAR (-1.7 With Denver, +.8 with NYK)
Denver : +.7 Offense, 2.4pts worse on defense
NY: +4.6 offense, 3.8pts worse on defense


11-12: -2.0
+2.2 on Offense, 4.2PTS worse on defense.




----------------------------------------------------------------




I guess the question I should be asking is, why do Melo's teams do so much better defensively without him on the court throughout his career? Only once has Melo not diminish his teams defense(statistically), coincidentally that happened to be the only year he advanced past the first round, it was also one of his least impressive years statistically (As an individual).

I know the obvious answer would be to blame him for poor defense. But both sides will argue its not concrete evidence that hes this poor of a defender, but it does open up the possibility, perhaps Melo has barely been a net positive player for his teams. That most of his career, he has given up as much as he gets.


Which side are you on? Is Melo overrated by outdated analysis, or is the new stuff overselling his flaws?

I think there is some middle ground to be found in all this. I found it very interesting that the year +/- looked favorably upon Melo, happened to be the year I actually remember him getting some praise for his defensive improvement. Coming straight off the Olympics, he was surely in better shape that year.

Did Melo actually put in work that year, did that effort take away from his own offensive game?

EnWhyKay
08-28-2012, 04:01 PM
Perception plays a major role here. When he was in Denver people called him underrated. When he got to NY he suddenly became overrated.

Bottom line only a championship run will release Melo from all the negative perceptions people have toward him. The same way it worked for Pierce.

In order to accomplish this He has to lead his team to a top seed in the conference and avoid any powerhouse in the first round. He must be willing to do whatever it takes to make it happen or he will forever be known as a slightly above average guy who's top tier talent ultimately did not equate to team success...

juster1028
08-28-2012, 04:01 PM
antonio carmine (the buly on theh block/) :mad:

is 1 of the most ftiguraizationing characcters to date

he is an isolotion player but lovs to bang down low :clap:

(b/Old==33333-l., mjhg_)
y
carmine does not recieve enoguh priase for the palyer he is 2day.
-
:speechless::speechless:

did u not c the bulls game? :D
he lit ppl on flame:eyebrow:

carmine hits bck 2 bck 3 ptsers to go ahead n win i was screaming at my telervision for this to hapen :mad:

to sum it up carmine will be +8.2 this seson with the knicks if tysun can gard the paient more then usaul... :cool:

BklynKnicks3
08-28-2012, 04:03 PM
clown stats how about when matt bonner had a better +/- the durant for a whole season

JNoel
08-28-2012, 04:03 PM
Carmelo takes too many difficult shots.

koreancabbage
08-28-2012, 04:04 PM
clown stats how about when matt bonner had a better +/- the durant for a whole season

u better not mess with Bonner

Longhornfan1234
08-28-2012, 04:05 PM
antonio carmine (the buly on theh block/) :mad:

is 1 of the most ftiguraizationing characcters to date

he is an isolotion player but lovs to bang down low :clap:

(b/Old==33333-l., mjhg_)
y
carmine does not recieve enoguh priase for the palyer he is 2day.
-
:speechless::speechless:

did u not c the bulls game? :D
he lit ppl on flame:eyebrow:


Wtf?

carmine hits bck 2 bck 3 ptsers to go ahead n win i was screaming at my telervision for this to hapen :mad:

to sum it up carmine will be +8.2 this seson with the knicks if tysun can gard the paient more then usaul... :cool:


Typed from your cell phone?

waveycrockett
08-28-2012, 04:07 PM
Because defensively he is horrible. For all the point he scores he gives up a bunch on the other end.

Toxeryll
08-28-2012, 04:10 PM
Because he hates defense.

Jesse2272
08-28-2012, 04:10 PM
antonio carmine (the buly on theh block/) :mad:

is 1 of the most ftiguraizationing characcters to date

he is an isolotion player but lovs to bang down low :clap:

(b/Old==33333-l., mjhg_)
y
carmine does not recieve enoguh priase for the palyer he is 2day.
-
:speechless::speechless:

did u not c the bulls game? :D
he lit ppl on flame:eyebrow:

carmine hits bck 2 bck 3 ptsers to go ahead n win i was screaming at my telervision for this to hapen :mad:

to sum it up carmine will be +8.2 this seson with the knicks if tysun can gard the paient more then usaul... :cool:

WTF no more Melo threads my head hurts :facepalm: all the posts are starting to look like this

KnickaBocka.44
08-28-2012, 04:11 PM
Melo actually played pretty decent defense in the playoffs and i am hoping to see that kind of effort from him somewhat consistently this season.

Jesse2272
08-28-2012, 04:12 PM
I want to see what he can do with a fully healthy squad full training camp a point guard and no coaching turmoil

BobbyHillSwag
08-28-2012, 04:31 PM
Didnt know stats could hate a player. People are getting so delusional they think stats are living. Damn




Lmao

lookie8
08-28-2012, 04:33 PM
I dont know if hes overtaken Bron/Kobe as the games most polarizing player today, but I do feel like he has considering those guys have at least put to rest many of the demons that hecklers have haunted them with. With Melo there is still alot of negative stigmas that we arent quite sure if they are real or not.

Statistically speaking, Melo has never ranked among the truly elite players, but it gets even worse when you break down the +/- effect he has on his teams.



----------------------------------------------------------------

Raw +/- differentials over the year.


03-04: -0.1
The Nuggets were +4.9 on offense but 5.9pts worse on defense.


04-05: +1.5
Again +3.3 on Offense but 1.9pts worse on defense:


05-06: +1.3
+3 on O, but 1.7pts worse on defense


06-07: + .6
Im beginning to sense a theme here, +6.6 on Offense, 6.0pts worse on defense


07-08: - 3.4
+1.3 offense, 4.7PTS worse on defense


08-09: +7.8
+7.6 on Offense AND .1 pt better on defense. So Melo bucks the trend, keep this year in mind.


09-10: +3.5
+4.6 on Offense, 1.1PT worse on defense.


10-11: TRADE YEAR (-1.7 With Denver, +.8 with NYK)
Denver : +.7 Offense, 2.4pts worse on defense
NY: +4.6 offense, 3.8pts worse on defense


11-12: -2.0
+2.2 on Offense, 4.2PTS worse on defense.




----------------------------------------------------------------




I guess the question I should be asking is, why do Melo's teams do so much better defensively without him on the court throughout his career? Only once has Melo not diminish his teams defense(statistically), coincidentally that happened to be the only year he advanced past the first round, it was also one of his least impressive years statistically (As an individual).

I know the obvious answer would be to blame him for poor defense. But both sides will argue its not concrete evidence that hes this poor of a defender, but it does open up the possibility, perhaps Melo has barely been a net positive player for his teams. That most of his career, he has given up as much as he gets.


Which side are you on? Is Melo overrated by outdated analysis, or is the new stuff overselling his flaws?

I think there is some middle ground to be found in all this. I found it very interesting that the year +/- looked favorably upon Melo, happened to be the year I actually remember him getting some praise for his defensive improvement. Coming straight off the Olympics, he was surely in better shape that year.

Did Melo actually put in work that year, did that effort take away from his own offensive game?

Racism

Kashmir13579
08-28-2012, 04:38 PM
He gets by on his god given talents and brings nothing more to the table.

Chronz
08-28-2012, 04:40 PM
Is it likely that Melo has never or at least rarely, been the best player on his teams?

JasonJohnHorn
08-28-2012, 04:41 PM
Melo is $#!T... that's why. He knows how to, or rather, he KNEW how to score and rebound and he's not been doing either as well since he got to NY.

He's like Domique Wilkens light... and if he's a light version of Nique, you can't expect any more success out of him than what Nique had.

Hustlenomics
08-28-2012, 04:41 PM
are there not 4 other players on the court with him at all times? can we see the lineups?

Kashmir13579
08-28-2012, 04:43 PM
Is it likely that Melo has never or at least rarely, been the best player on his teams?

meh.. I wouldn't go that far.. Especially before he played with mr big shot.

StinkEye
08-28-2012, 04:44 PM
because he's a ball hog who doesn't feel like playing defense, and ruins team chemistry. I thought we all knew this. Chronz, why don't you tell us how you really feel.

Chronz
08-28-2012, 04:47 PM
are there not 4 other players on the court with him at all times? can we see the lineups?

There are more advanced measures we can look at for sure, and Im sure Melo benefits from those measures, but to rate consistently low on the defensive end prolly doesnt change the big picture question. Has Melo always been the best player on his teams?

lvblay3
08-28-2012, 04:48 PM
I dont know if hes overtaken Bron/Kobe as the games most polarizing player today, but I do feel like he has considering those guys have at least put to rest many of the demons that hecklers have haunted them with. With Melo there is still alot of negative stigmas that we arent quite sure if they are real or not.

Statistically speaking, Melo has never ranked among the truly elite players, but it gets even worse when you break down the +/- effect he has on his teams.



----------------------------------------------------------------

Raw +/- differentials over the year.


03-04: -0.1
The Nuggets were +4.9 on offense but 5.9pts worse on defense.


04-05: +1.5
Again +3.3 on Offense but 1.9pts worse on defense:


05-06: +1.3
+3 on O, but 1.7pts worse on defense


06-07: + .6
Im beginning to sense a theme here, +6.6 on Offense, 6.0pts worse on defense


07-08: - 3.4
+1.3 offense, 4.7PTS worse on defense


08-09: +7.8
+7.6 on Offense AND .1 pt better on defense. So Melo bucks the trend, keep this year in mind.


09-10: +3.5
+4.6 on Offense, 1.1PT worse on defense.


10-11: TRADE YEAR (-1.7 With Denver, +.8 with NYK)
Denver : +.7 Offense, 2.4pts worse on defense
NY: +4.6 offense, 3.8pts worse on defense


11-12: -2.0
+2.2 on Offense, 4.2PTS worse on defense.




----------------------------------------------------------------




I guess the question I should be asking is, why do Melo's teams do so much better defensively without him on the court throughout his career? Only once has Melo not diminish his teams defense(statistically), coincidentally that happened to be the only year he advanced past the first round, it was also one of his least impressive years statistically (As an individual).

I know the obvious answer would be to blame him for poor defense. But both sides will argue its not concrete evidence that hes this poor of a defender, but it does open up the possibility, perhaps Melo has barely been a net positive player for his teams. That most of his career, he has given up as much as he gets.


Which side are you on? Is Melo overrated by outdated analysis, or is the new stuff overselling his flaws?

I think there is some middle ground to be found in all this. I found it very interesting that the year +/- looked favorably upon Melo, happened to be the year I actually remember him getting some praise for his defensive improvement. Coming straight off the Olympics, he was surely in better shape that year.

Did Melo actually put in work that year, did that effort take away from his own offensive game?








HE GAME IS WEAK.... RUN DOWN THE COURT AND SHOOT, :speechless: teamates reaction

Chronz
08-28-2012, 04:49 PM
meh.. I wouldn't go that far.. Especially before he played with mr big shot.

Main thing I want to know, which years would you consider Melo to be the best on his team?

lvblay3
08-28-2012, 04:49 PM
are there not 4 other players on the court with him at all times? can we see the lineups?

MELO cant so why should we

BobbyHillSwag
08-28-2012, 04:52 PM
Main thing I want to know, which years would you consider Melo to be the best on his team?

Not even stats gonna help you in this argument chronz.:pity:

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-28-2012, 04:54 PM
Because he doesn't play defense. Back in 2011 him and Amar'e had the worst +/- rating out of any "star duo" and it was like a -1.6.

Jesse2272
08-28-2012, 04:58 PM
We all know Melo naps on D, he needs to alter this part of his game/mindset

will he is another story

when he puts the effort in its respecatble and hes shown he can do it

Cal827
08-28-2012, 05:00 PM
Another why do **** hate (Insert person here)?

Next in Chronz threads:

Why does PSD hate Jordan(sBulls) :D? Just kidding around JB.

But yeah, probably because the guy doesnt really defend lol

Chronz
08-28-2012, 05:05 PM
Not even stats gonna help you in this argument chronz.:pity:

Elaborate, which argument is that

bucketss
08-28-2012, 05:22 PM
MELO cant so why should we

what the hell are you?

Jackie Robinson
08-28-2012, 05:25 PM
Because defensively he is horrible. For all the point he scores he gives up a bunch on the other end.

Like we wouldnt take Carmelo Anthony in a millisecond.

BobbyHillSwag
08-28-2012, 05:25 PM
Elaborate, which argument is that

"Is it likely that Melo has never or at least rarely, been the best player on his teams?"

Melo was the best player on his teams every year.

Hawkeye15
08-28-2012, 05:26 PM
Because he doesn't play individual, nor team defense consistently. He didn't have Iverson type defenders around him for example, and with Melo getting such a huge share of minutes played, he was the constant on the floor when those defensive numbers were poor, and whichever player replaced him for the 10 mpg he sat was a superior defender, taking pressure of his teammates to cover Melo's mistakes or sheer laziness.

06-07' is the only year I feel comfortable saying I though Melo was the best player on his team.

BobbyHillSwag
08-28-2012, 05:35 PM
I can't even.............im done smh

PlezPlayDKnicks
08-28-2012, 05:37 PM
Love to see a mcgrady breakdown after this Chronz.. You already knew the harm this thread would cause on psd. Then do one on Blake Griffin

BobbyHillSwag
08-28-2012, 05:41 PM
Love to see a mcgrady breakdown after this Chronz.. You already knew the harm this thread would cause on psd. Then do one on Blake Griffin

harm for the brain reading dumb *** post after dumb *** post. This type of **** rivals DoMe's stuff.

GiantsSwaGG
08-28-2012, 06:04 PM
Justinnum1 will post in this thread soon

RC3
08-28-2012, 06:11 PM
justinnum1 will post in this thread soon

lol

Chill_Will_24
08-28-2012, 06:11 PM
The only time i remember thinking Melo was the best player on his team was when they had Iverson and Kleiza was a rookie

Cal827
08-28-2012, 06:13 PM
Justinnum1 will post in this thread soon

Think that's bad? Wait until your fanbase's favorite non-Knick fans: DoMeFavors and Dnewguy see this lol

BobbyHillSwag
08-28-2012, 06:15 PM
Think that's bad? Wait until your fanbase's favorite non-Knick fans: DoMeFavors and Dnewguy see this lol

:laugh2:

DoMe is sounding more intelligent then some of the posters that have posted in this thread.

BobbyHillSwag
08-28-2012, 06:16 PM
I wonder if people are saying melo just got worse or iverson was worse than chauncey billups? eh dont matter I know whats up lmao

Jesse2272
08-28-2012, 06:20 PM
:laugh2:

DoMe is sounding more intelligent then some of the posters that have posted in this thread.

No

go look at her comments about Tyson in the center voting LMFAO

nycsports2
08-28-2012, 06:23 PM
melo can d up when he tries... question is will he. i believe woodson is going to hold him accountable and also look back to see what kinda season he had after the last olympics... melo is about to explode this yr im expecting an mvp type season

justinnum1
08-28-2012, 06:30 PM
taller monta ellis

Cal827
08-28-2012, 06:32 PM
^ :laugh2: Right on cue.

BobbyHillSwag
08-28-2012, 06:35 PM
^ :laugh2: Right on cue.

:laugh2:
I knew he was coming lmao

Jesse2272
08-28-2012, 06:36 PM
taller monta ellis

:cheers: your late

bucketss
08-28-2012, 06:45 PM
he actually has been playing on monta ellis level for the whole season minus april.

Punk
08-28-2012, 06:48 PM
Why do threads like this continue to be allowed? It goes nowhere and it's created for that purpose. Good god.

And the fact, using +/- to make an argument is even more comical. It's widely know to be a stat that holds less merit no matter who it's used on.


Because he hates defense.

He came off his best defensive rated season...

Chronz
08-28-2012, 07:57 PM
I wonder if people are saying melo just got worse or iverson was worse than chauncey billups? eh dont matter I know whats up lmao
It can be any combination. But continue with your hubris, I wish I could hear your point but since you dont care, stick to ignoring opposing beliefs.



Love to see a mcgrady breakdown after this Chronz.. You already knew the harm this thread would cause on psd. Then do one on Blake Griffin
I would love to provide one, but Tmac only showed this level of team detriment the year he played on 1 leg. When he was a poor defender, his team relied on him SOOO much offensively that he was still among the best in +/-.

Cant do one on Blake Griffin yet, +/- requires a long sample set, Blake is only in Y2 and he is already posting impressive #'s in this field so whats your point?


"Is it likely that Melo has never or at least rarely, been the best player on his teams?"

Maybe, but I think there are legitimate arguments to be made.

But what do you mean "even stats wont help me"?




Why do threads like this continue to be allowed? It goes nowhere and it's created for that purpose. Good god.
It was created for the purpose to raise questions.


And the fact, using +/- to make an argument is even more comical. It's widely know to be a stat that holds less merit no matter who it's used on.

Yes but it still holds some merit, particularly when a player shows a steady continuation of poor defensive importance. That objective data becomes even more relevant when it matches popular subjective opinion of said players defense.



He came off his best defensive rated season...
What makes you the expert on defensive stats that you dismiss one of the most used methods for quantifying it while also speaking on another players metrics?

Hustlenomics
08-28-2012, 08:52 PM
Because he doesn't play individual, nor team defense consistently. He didn't have Iverson type defenders around him for example, and with Melo getting such a huge share of minutes played, he was the constant on the floor when those defensive numbers were poor, and whichever player replaced him for the 10 mpg he sat was a superior defender, taking pressure of his teammates to cover Melo's mistakes or sheer laziness.

06-07' is the only year I feel comfortable saying I though Melo was the best player on his team.

first his 33 points in one quarter wasn't impressive now this nonsense :laugh:

BobbyHillSwag
08-28-2012, 08:57 PM
first his 33 points in one quarter wasn't impressive now this nonsense :laugh:

good poster but like every poster on this board you just cant reason with them on certain subjects lmao. That's including me :o

nicegoing
08-28-2012, 11:06 PM
cool that's a lotta point

toovey107
08-28-2012, 11:38 PM
Never put much stock into +/-

Evolution23
08-28-2012, 11:57 PM
He gets by on his god given talents and brings nothing more to the table.

That's the most ignorant thing I've heard any one say on PSD. You don't get to the NBA level on pure talent, you have to work at it every day of your life.

This whole +/- stats are overrated.

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 12:05 AM
good poster but like every poster on this board you just cant reason with them on certain subjects lmao. That's including me :o

Reason with me then. I am not saying no debate could be made over Melo being his teams best player outside the year I stated, I simply ask you to tell me why.

Ill21
08-29-2012, 12:20 AM
+/- is a joke

WAYNEBO
08-29-2012, 12:51 AM
Just another launching board for Melo Haters. Y'all really need to hump another leg.

Oh I know! How about you clowns chit-chat endlessly about Dirk's D or David Lee? Maybe throw in a Bargnani or two? Your 5000 posts need at least a few more drivels.

BklynKnicks3
08-29-2012, 08:59 AM
2nd best player in the league lets put some money up instead of makin stupid threads

Jesse2272
08-29-2012, 09:20 AM
Reason with me then. I am not saying no debate could be made over Melo being his teams best player outside the year I stated, I simply ask you to tell me why.

I dont think Melo being the best player on his team can be debated he was!

However he may not have had the most positive impact on both sides of the ball consistently, is this your argument?

PlezPlayDKnicks
08-29-2012, 09:21 AM
My point is Chronz is that you know this is a bait thread on PSD. I'm not even a die hard Melo supporter and it's become annoying now. And for all Mcgradys good u already know what's the first argument against him . And as for Blake he gives you nothing on the defensive end when he definitely has the tools to do so. Funny how u find stats to support the players you like. I respect your intellect but this was a bs thread and you know it

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 09:33 AM
I dont think Melo being the best player on his team can be debated he was!

However he may not have had the most positive impact on both sides of the ball consistently, is this your argument?

You just explained Melo to a tee. He is individually so talented, yet his talents don't really translate like many others to a team sport. Which is why I said, outside the one year, I don't think a concrete, no argument case can be made that he was the best player on his team, and the best player is the guy who has the most input into winning basketball games.

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 09:34 AM
To anyone who is facepalming or laughing, go year by year, and show me how Melo was the best player on his team.

Raidaz4Life
08-29-2012, 09:39 AM
I think it has to do with the fact that much like Kobe he is a lazy defender.

BklynKnicks3
08-29-2012, 09:39 AM
u can tell who played the game and who didnt with these stupid advanced stats n +/-. People who really played the game go by eye test. The people who didnt go web searching for numbers while cookie and chip crumbs are all over their face.

Jesse2272
08-29-2012, 09:41 AM
You just explained Melo to a tee. He is individually so talented, yet his talents don't really translate like many others to a team sport. Which is why I said, outside the one year, I don't think a concrete, no argument case can be made that he was the best player on his team, and the best player is the guy who has the most input into winning basketball games.

I see your point

Melos brand of BB can win a ton of games during the regular season but is not effective in the playoffs teams focus on him and he works too hard to score and kills his effeciency

Melo needs easy baskets and needs to step up his D he needs to trust his teamates more and they need to come through STAT is a huge key to Knicks success this run

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 09:46 AM
u can tell who played the game and who didnt with these stupid advanced stats n +/-. People who really played the game go by eye test. The people who didnt go web searching for numbers while cookie and chip crumbs are all over their face.

I don't believe you understand the basic concepts of basketball, I have seen nothing in your line of posting to suggest otherwise.

BigCityofDreams
08-29-2012, 09:47 AM
2nd best player in the league lets put some money up instead of makin stupid threads

Melo isn't the second best player. He's top ten though.

LongIslandIcedZ
08-29-2012, 09:54 AM
How is this not a baiting thread? While there are valid points being made, the intent of thread was to bait Knick fans into an argument.

And I dont understand the whole Melo best on his team thing. Who, on the Knicks right now, is better than Carmelo? Nobody.

He carried the team on his back finishing the season, before getting the stomped by the eventual Champion Miami Heat.

I'm a fan of Melo, perhaps not his biggest fan, but a fan nonetheless. He is the best player on the current Knicks team. One of the best offensive players in the league, and unfortunately, lazy on defense.

I'm not that guy that disregards stats for the eye test, both have their place in evaluating talent. But you cannot use +/- to tell me that Carmelo is not the best player on this team.

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 09:57 AM
What defines "best player"? I always thought it was the player that had the biggest impact on winning.

Last year, I think a case can be made for Tyson Chandler having the biggest impact in winning games for the Knicks.

Gram
08-29-2012, 10:04 AM
I don't believe you understand the basic concepts of basketball, I have seen nothing in your line of posting to suggest otherwise.

:laugh:

Jesse2272
08-29-2012, 10:04 AM
What defines "best player"? I always thought it was the player that had the biggest impact on winning.

Last year, I think a case can be made for Tyson Chandler having the biggest impact in winning games for the Knicks.

I dont think this stat 100% determines this

Melo can still singlehandedly win a game with a terrible +/-

This works well showing different combos of players too see what works the best on the floor

Im not a stat guy but is there another statistic you could bring into the argument that backs the argument of Melo not being the best player on his team and having a negative impact on the floor?

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 10:14 AM
I dont think this stat 100% determines this

Melo can still singlehandedly win a game with a terrible +/-

This works well showing different combos of players too see what works the best on the floor

Im not a stat guy but is there another statistic you could bring into the argument that backs the argument of Melo not being the best player on the floor and having a negative impact on the floor?

No single stat determines anything, you have to apply multiple, plus context, plus watching how a team works together to determine who the highest impact player is.

The one thing here is, its a constant over 9 years that when Melo is off the floor, his team has done better defensively, so there is plenty of merit to the statistic. The combination line you wrote is definately something assistant coaches are told to track and analyze.

PER, Win shares, WS/48, Offensive/Defensive ratings, all suggest over the years that outside 06-07', Melo doesn't have a clear case of being the best player on his team. Andre Miller/Marcus Camby early, I though Melo was clearly their best player in 06-07', then Iverson, then Billups, and now Chandler. They all have just as good a case over the other years, respectively, as the teams best player. Not saying they ARE better, I am saying they have just as good a case as Melo.

LongIslandIcedZ
08-29-2012, 10:20 AM
What defines "best player"? I always thought it was the player that had the biggest impact on winning.

Last year, I think a case can be made for Tyson Chandler having the biggest impact in winning games for the Knicks.

Well if "best player" cannot be clearly defined, then how can this topic even be discussed?

Chandler's impact may have been greater, because there is a bigger difference between him and the Knicks second best defender than Carmelo and Amar'e scoring. (If that makes sense)

But I think when it comes to natural ability, Chandler is not nearly as good as Carmelo. And Chandler is far and away my favorite player on the Knicks.

I think people need to wait until the season gets underway, and then revisit this topic a few months from now. If the Knicks can consistently play the whole season like they did when Woodson took over, I think people will have a different opinion.

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 10:26 AM
Well if "best player" cannot be clearly defined, then how can this topic even be discussed?

It can be defined, as long as the definition is agreed upon. And discussion is what breeds answers, that is why we bring these topics up.



Chandler's impact may have been greater, because there is a bigger difference between him and the Knicks second best defender than Carmelo and Amar'e scoring. (If that makes sense)

See, that is what I am talking about. I can live with that reasoning, it makes sense, and I think it can be proven.


But I think when it comes to natural ability, Chandler is not nearly as good as Carmelo. And Chandler is far and away my favorite player on the Knicks.

I don't think there are 5 NBA players with more natural ability than Carmelo Anthony. But that isn't the determiner, production and results are.


I think people need to wait until the season gets underway, and then revisit this topic a few months from now. If the Knicks can consistently play the whole season like they did when Woodson took over, I think people will have a different opinion.

Well, we have 9 years of data, that being said, Melo was EASILY playing his best defense last season. Still not the consistency one would desire, but it was better, meaning, he was no longer a liability on that end the majority of the time. But Chandler still had more statistical impact, and more of a real impact. I am curious to see how Melo reacts this season as well.

Jesse2272
08-29-2012, 10:30 AM
Informative discussion

appreciate it

Red Hot Rolllin
08-29-2012, 10:34 AM
classic ball stopper.... he is what he is

BklynKnicks3
08-29-2012, 10:44 AM
because kobe and jordan werent ball stoppers

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 10:46 AM
because kobe and jordan werent ball stoppers

Both elite isolation players who got their teammates involved, played tenacious defense, and had the killer instinct to win games, not just score points.

Chronz
08-29-2012, 11:54 AM
My point is Chronz is that you know this is a bait thread on PSD. I'm not even a die hard Melo supporter and it's become annoying now. And for all Mcgradys good u already know what's the first argument against him . And as for Blake he gives you nothing on the defensive end when he definitely has the tools to do so.
LOL, Im pointing out a trend in Melo's career. If that is considered baiting for you then you need to rethink that stance of not being a die hard Melo fan. It seems like you got a crazy crush on him if you want people to ignore facts. If someone made a thread on Tmac, I wouldnt complain about facts, I would answer the questions laid out. And yes I already know the first argument, I know how pitiful it is too. As for Blake, he may not give you much defensively but your attempt to bring him up only led to me praising him because on the topic we are on, he was actually among the best.


Funny how u find stats to support the players you like. I respect your intellect but this was a bs thread and you know it
No idea what this means, is it my fault that the stats tend to agree with what I watch? Its not as if I can make these up out of thin air, I simply assess what the numbers tell me and see what people think of it. If you feel its BS, so be it, but the thread itself isnt BS.

Chronz
08-29-2012, 11:56 AM
u can tell who played the game and who didnt with these stupid advanced stats n +/-. People who really played the game go by eye test. The people who didnt go web searching for numbers while cookie and chip crumbs are all over their face.
Your hubris is hilarious, but I can top that. Check dis


u can tel who rly knows da game and who dint wit der arguments against stats. The peeps who dnt know ****, dnt pay attention to wat actual NBA TEAMS do. Peeps who recognize, know stats.

Chronz
08-29-2012, 12:02 PM
How is this not a baiting thread? While there are valid points being made, the intent of thread was to bait Knick fans into an argument.
That depends on the intelligence/security of a fan base. I made a similar thread on Kobe awhile back and most of the Laker fans laid down the law. Guess Knick fans are significantly more insecure. Its not a bait thread because being a Knick doesnt DQ you from investigation.


And I dont understand the whole Melo best on his team thing. Who, on the Knicks right now, is better than Carmelo? Nobody.
Thats because your focusing on just this season. And I would argue Tyson carried the Knicks more than Melo did this year.


He carried the team on his back finishing the season, before getting the stomped by the eventual Champion Miami Heat.
He showed up at the end of the season, Lin came midseason to get the team back on track, TC was there all year and the only thing great about the Knicks was their defense, makes sense to credit the DPOY, no?




I'm not that guy that disregards stats for the eye test, both have their place in evaluating talent. But you cannot use +/- to tell me that Carmelo is not the best player on this team.
Can you give us a list of the things we can use?

EnWhyKay
08-29-2012, 12:02 PM
Stephen A called it. Now that Lebron has his ring all attention has shifted to Melo. You got people in here debating whether Carmelo Anthony is the best player on his teams... Smh.. Give me a fuggin break...

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 12:04 PM
Stephen A called it. Now that Lebron has his ring all attention has shifted to Melo. You got people in here debating whether Carmelo Anthony is the best player on his teams... Smh.. Give me a fuggin break...

Again, I ask anyone with this blatant stance to provide why he was the undisputed best player on his rosters.

Chronz
08-29-2012, 12:04 PM
Well if "best player" cannot be clearly defined, then how can this topic even be discussed?
By giving your interpretation of the definition. But even if you feel Melo is the best player, can you honestly say he always had the best season for his teams? I know I would rather take TC on my team than Melo from last year.

Chronz
08-29-2012, 12:05 PM
Stephen A called it. Now that Lebron has his ring all attention has shifted to Melo. You got people in here debating whether Carmelo Anthony is the best player on his teams... Smh.. Give me a fuggin break...
Its the people who think Melo was automatically the best throughout his career that need a LONG break IMO.

Stinkyoutsider
08-29-2012, 12:35 PM
It's a tough question to answer?

With Melo, I think it comes down to effort, not defensive skill. I think Melo has enough skill to be a very good defender but it's his mindset and effort that gets him in the end. If Melo thinks "I'm going to carry the scoring load this game", he seems like that's all he focuses on and doesn't look to lock people down.

Plus, I think he doesn't necessarily enjoy playing defense like a top tier defensive player likes it like Iggy. I can tell Iggy and Ibaka love nothing more than to shut you down.

He may be affecting the D +/- negatively because of the matchups too. Maybe he's defending someone who's the number 1 go to guy for the team like a Lebron James?

KniCks4LiFe
08-29-2012, 12:46 PM
He gets by on his god given talents and brings nothing more to the table.

This.

Bornknick73
08-29-2012, 03:07 PM
Im so sick of this **** already.

Everyone always talks about Melo's lack of defense. Why doesnt anyone ever talk about the Western Conference's style of play when they talk about this?

The West has always been the side of the country where the players play fast and loose, up and down styles. High scoring games. The East has always been the low scoring tough defensive side of the country.

Its like this in almost every league. In the NHL the western teams are the high flying scoring teams, where as east teams like the Devils and Flyers are grind it out defensive teams. For years in the NFL the Rams, 49ers, Packers, Broncos have been high scoring teams while the Giants, Pittsburghs, Ravens have been low scoring defense grind it out teams.

Carmelo played in the West where it was a very up and down high tempo style. How many defensive studs came out of the west? Only Bruce Bowen comes to mind. Artest came from the East. Mutombo was from the East.

People are always criticizing his defense when he plays in a conference where it isnt really as big as it is out east. If Carmelo had been drafted by the Pistons and played the majority of his career in the east no one would be talking about this ********.

Only 2 teams in the west, over the last 10-15 years have been solid defensively year in and out. LA and SA.

Its all a matter of conference. Eastern teams are tough defensive teams and west teams are run and gun. Its always been this way.

If he played in the East for all his years and sucked defensively thats one thing but he played in the West.

The bottomline is East teams play slow halfcourt defensive styles and West teams play uptempo high scoring styles.

Of course anyones defense is gonna suffer when you play in a conference where everyone is running and gunning up and down the court.

People need to take this into account when criticizing him.

Heatcheck
08-29-2012, 03:10 PM
u can tell who played the game and who didnt with these stupid advanced stats n +/-. People who really played the game go by eye test. The people who didnt go web searching for numbers while cookie and chip crumbs are all over their face.

People who go by eye test, because they played the game (isaiah thomas, Jordan) are arguably the worst evaluators of talent ever, and the people who lean completely on stats (Houston Rockets) have an obvious ceiling to their success and can never quite compete.

Bornknick73
08-29-2012, 03:12 PM
This will be the first year hes truly gonna play on a Eastern Conference style team with a eastern conference style coach.

His first season and a half in NY doesnt count because he played for a western conference style coach who cared little for defense.

If Melo had played under Pop or Phil or even Sloan he wouldnt be described as some kind of defensive slouch. Because those are the only West coaches who cared about defense, which is why they have all the rings. Except Sloan. He would have had at least 2 if he didnt run into a guy named Jordan.

bucketss
08-29-2012, 03:14 PM
u can tell who played the game and who didnt with these stupid advanced stats n +/-. People who really played the game go by eye test. The people who didnt go web searching for numbers while cookie and chip crumbs are all over their face.

my eyes tell me, carmelo isn't a top 5 player. i see hes lazy asf on defense and kills the offense with his iso. but hey he has fancy crossovers and a smooth jumper so he must be Awesome!!!

Chronz
08-29-2012, 03:40 PM
Im so sick of this **** already.

Everyone always talks about Melo's lack of defense. Why doesnt anyone ever talk about the Western Conference's style of play when they talk about this?
Because society has moved on from archaic barometers of efficiency. You dont have to be a slow it down team to be great defensively.


The West has always been the side of the country where the players play fast and loose, up and down styles. High scoring games. The East has always been the low scoring tough defensive side of the country.

Even if the overall theme of your post was right, it doesnt have anything to do with his impact on HIS TEAM. Being on an alegedly bad defensive team isnt an excuse to make it worse.


Carmelo played in the West where it was a very up and down high tempo style. How many defensive studs came out of the west? Only Bruce Bowen comes to mind. Artest came from the East. Mutombo was from the East.
Bruce Bowen came from the east. How about Duncan? Still dont see the point here.


People are always criticizing his defense when he plays in a conference where it isnt really as big as it is out east. If Carmelo had been drafted by the Pistons and played the majority of his career in the east no one would be talking about this ********.
LOL


Only 2 teams in the west, over the last 10-15 years have been solid defensively year in and out. LA and SA.
Proof? Point? Relevance?


Its all a matter of conference. Eastern teams are tough defensive teams and west teams are run and gun. Its always been this way.
Prove it


If he played in the East for all his years and sucked defensively thats one thing but he played in the West.

Sounds like a BS excuse.


The bottomline is East teams play slow halfcourt defensive styles and West teams play uptempo high scoring styles.

Irrelevant


Of course anyones defense is gonna suffer when you play in a conference where everyone is running and gunning up and down the court.
False


People need to take this into account when criticizing him.
Why?

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 03:53 PM
Im so sick of this **** already.

Everyone always talks about Melo's lack of defense. Why doesnt anyone ever talk about the Western Conference's style of play when they talk about this?

The West has always been the side of the country where the players play fast and loose, up and down styles. High scoring games. The East has always been the low scoring tough defensive side of the country.

Its like this in almost every league. In the NHL the western teams are the high flying scoring teams, where as east teams like the Devils and Flyers are grind it out defensive teams. For years in the NFL the Rams, 49ers, Packers, Broncos have been high scoring teams while the Giants, Pittsburghs, Ravens have been low scoring defense grind it out teams.

Carmelo played in the West where it was a very up and down high tempo style. How many defensive studs came out of the west? Only Bruce Bowen comes to mind. Artest came from the East. Mutombo was from the East.

People are always criticizing his defense when he plays in a conference where it isnt really as big as it is out east. If Carmelo had been drafted by the Pistons and played the majority of his career in the east no one would be talking about this ********.

Only 2 teams in the west, over the last 10-15 years have been solid defensively year in and out. LA and SA.

Its all a matter of conference. Eastern teams are tough defensive teams and west teams are run and gun. Its always been this way.

If he played in the East for all his years and sucked defensively thats one thing but he played in the West.

The bottomline is East teams play slow halfcourt defensive styles and West teams play uptempo high scoring styles.

Of course anyones defense is gonna suffer when you play in a conference where everyone is running and gunning up and down the court.

People need to take this into account when criticizing him.

All that for a simple answer to your question:

If Melo's negative defensive differentials were because he played in the offense happy west as you state.....why are there so many defenders out west who fit the star wing mold who had excellent defensive differentials?

Serious question. Did you Knicks fans defend Melo this hard prior to him daunting your teams uniform?

KnicksorBust
08-29-2012, 04:04 PM
All that for a simple answer to your question:

If Melo's negative defensive differentials were because he played in the offense happy west as you state.....why are there so many defenders out west who fit the star wing mold who had excellent defensive differentials?

Serious question. Did you Knicks fans defend Melo this hard prior to him daunting your teams uniform?

Serious question: Do you believe Melo is capable of being a good defender?

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 04:07 PM
Serious question: Do you believe Melo is capable of being a good defender?

Yes I do. I think he is capable of being a much better player than he is. Simply by bringing consistent effort and determinations, and taking his fitness level more serious, he could be a superstar. But that has always been Melo's problem, he just doesn't stay focused or consistent enough. He will have a 20 game stretch where he just destroys everything in this path, and then he will follow it up with 20 games of average play while chucking away at the expense of his team and not guarding anyone.

Jesse2272
08-29-2012, 04:18 PM
Melo talent is undeniable nor his ability to play D

He simply does not always have a positive influence on the game especially defensively

Hes top 10 IMO with top 5 talent if he brings it everynight on both ends

Hell have his day in the sun this season its all in his hands

Jesse2272
08-29-2012, 04:19 PM
In Stat/Melo I trust

Hustla23
08-29-2012, 04:23 PM
Racism
This post caught me by surprise. Gotta love these little gems in the NBA forum. :laugh:

Kashmir13579
08-29-2012, 05:50 PM
Main thing I want to know, which years would you consider Melo to be the best on his team?

05-06 and 06-07

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 05:52 PM
05-06 and 06-07

I almost included 05-06' as well, but he was HORRID in the playoffs, though I suppose if you work the sample size angle of 80 versus 5 games.

Kashmir13579
08-29-2012, 05:57 PM
What defines "best player"? I always thought it was the player that had the biggest impact on winning.

Last year, I think a case can be made for Tyson Chandler having the biggest impact in winning games for the Knicks.

Honestly 'Melo was a joke last year... Gimme Jeremy Lin in a Knicks jersey over 'Melo last year.. Let alone Tyson Chandler.. Hell, the team did much better with Novak on the floor...

That last month when he got his way and FINALLY starting playing like an all-star doesn't make me forget what came before.. The guy was so clearly dogging it my blood pressure went through the roof. I can confidently say last year was 'Melo's worst year as a pro, given the circumstances, and he hurt his team much more than he helped.

Kashmir13579
08-29-2012, 05:59 PM
I almost included 05-06' as well, but he was HORRID in the playoffs, though I suppose if you work the sample size angle of 80 versus 5 games.

Funny i was sure of 05-06 but skeptical on 06-07. Marcus Camby played 70 games in 06-07 at a high level.

Kashmir13579
08-29-2012, 06:06 PM
I almost included 05-06' as well, but he was HORRID in the playoffs, though I suppose if you work the sample size angle of 80 versus 5 games.

If you want to put emphasis on the playoffs (which at the end of the day matters most) 08-09 was pretty much the only year 'Melo played at a high level.

At any rate, it was still one of 'Melo's worst regular seasons, and Billups arguably out-played him over the course of those playoffs anyway.

t_money25
08-30-2012, 12:48 AM
Wow....the side of the country in which a player plays on determines whether or not a player excels on defense or not ....SMH....the logic on PSD is getting worse by the day.

BULLSFAN0810
08-30-2012, 03:03 AM
I dont know if hes overtaken Bron/Kobe as the games most polarizing player today, but I do feel like he has considering those guys have at least put to rest many of the demons that hecklers have haunted them with. With Melo there is still alot of negative stigmas that we arent quite sure if they are real or not.

Statistically speaking, Melo has never ranked among the truly elite players, but it gets even worse when you break down the +/- effect he has on his teams.



----------------------------------------------------------------

Raw +/- differentials over the year.


03-04: -0.1
The Nuggets were +4.9 on offense but 5.9pts worse on defense.


04-05: +1.5
Again +3.3 on Offense but 1.9pts worse on defense:


05-06: +1.3
+3 on O, but 1.7pts worse on defense


06-07: + .6
Im beginning to sense a theme here, +6.6 on Offense, 6.0pts worse on defense


07-08: - 3.4
+1.3 offense, 4.7PTS worse on defense


08-09: +7.8
+7.6 on Offense AND .1 pt better on defense. So Melo bucks the trend, keep this year in mind.


09-10: +3.5
+4.6 on Offense, 1.1PT worse on defense.


10-11: TRADE YEAR (-1.7 With Denver, +.8 with NYK)
Denver : +.7 Offense, 2.4pts worse on defense
NY: +4.6 offense, 3.8pts worse on defense


11-12: -2.0
+2.2 on Offense, 4.2PTS worse on defense.




----------------------------------------------------------------




I guess the question I should be asking is, why do Melo's teams do so much better defensively without him on the court throughout his career? Only once has Melo not diminish his teams defense(statistically), coincidentally that happened to be the only year he advanced past the first round, it was also one of his least impressive years statistically (As an individual).

I know the obvious answer would be to blame him for poor defense. But both sides will argue its not concrete evidence that hes this poor of a defender, but it does open up the possibility, perhaps Melo has barely been a net positive player for his teams. That most of his career, he has given up as much as he gets.


Which side are you on? Is Melo overrated by outdated analysis, or is the new stuff overselling his flaws?

I think there is some middle ground to be found in all this. I found it very interesting that the year +/- looked favorably upon Melo, happened to be the year I actually remember him getting some praise for his defensive improvement. Coming straight off the Olympics, he was surely in better shape that year.

Did Melo actually put in work that year, did that effort take away from his own offensive game?



Great question ...great read...i'll answer it......


The refs:The machine markets who it wants.How many times do you turn on the tv and see Mell actually busting James arse AND lose? i saw it like , 3 times atleast...Most recently in the allstar game twice(back 2 back years),in the one on one session(dont count) NBA TVs game of the year or something Had Melo torching of James as top game,but Melo loses.

Team:Melo has NEVER EVER had a decent team where he is allowed to do what he does AND his team FIT around him. His Pg were OLD,CANT SHOOT.OR Sucked.

Leadership: Melo isnt a leader,but James isnt that much better. James seems to have fun winning though and to me Leadership is the actual real reason.Leadership holds ppl accountable.

b@llhog24
08-30-2012, 07:49 AM
It's a tough question to answer?

With Melo, I think it comes down to effort, not defensive skill. I think Melo has enough skill to be a very good defender but it's his mindset and effort that gets him in the end. If Melo thinks "I'm going to carry the scoring load this game", he seems like that's all he focuses on and doesn't look to lock people down.

Plus, I think he doesn't necessarily enjoy playing defense like a top tier defensive player likes it like Iggy. I can tell Iggy and Ibaka love nothing more than to shut you down.

He may be affecting the D +/- negatively because of the matchups too. Maybe he's defending someone who's the number 1 go to guy for the team like a Lebron James?

1) Melo can NEVER be as good defensively as Iggy, just doesn't have enough athleticism nor the natural defensive instincts.

2) Melo doesn't guard the team's best perimeter player alot (to avoid foul trouble). And even if that were true, he doesn't play against the Miami Heat all year long.


Im so sick of this **** already.

Everyone always talks about Melo's lack of defense. Why doesnt anyone ever talk about the Western Conference's style of play when they talk about this?

The West has always been the side of the country where the players play fast and loose, up and down styles. High scoring games. The East has always been the low scoring tough defensive side of the country.

Its like this in almost every league. In the NHL the western teams are the high flying scoring teams, where as east teams like the Devils and Flyers are grind it out defensive teams. For years in the NFL the Rams, 49ers, Packers, Broncos have been high scoring teams while the Giants, Pittsburghs, Ravens have been low scoring defense grind it out teams.

Carmelo played in the West where it was a very up and down high tempo style. How many defensive studs came out of the west? Only Bruce Bowen comes to mind. Artest came from the East. Mutombo was from the East.

People are always criticizing his defense when he plays in a conference where it isnt really as big as it is out east. If Carmelo had been drafted by the Pistons and played the majority of his career in the east no one would be talking about this ********.

Only 2 teams in the west, over the last 10-15 years have been solid defensively year in and out. LA and SA.

Its all a matter of conference. Eastern teams are tough defensive teams and west teams are run and gun. Its always been this way.

If he played in the East for all his years and sucked defensively thats one thing but he played in the West.

The bottomline is East teams play slow halfcourt defensive styles and West teams play uptempo high scoring styles.

Of course anyones defense is gonna suffer when you play in a conference where everyone is running and gunning up and down the court.

People need to take this into account when criticizing him.

:laugh:


If you want to put emphasis on the playoffs (which at the end of the day matters most) 08-09 was pretty much the only year 'Melo played at a high level.

At any rate, it was still one of 'Melo's worst regular seasons, and Billups arguably out-played him over the course of those playoffs anyway.

2010-2011 as well.

Andrew32
08-30-2012, 07:59 AM
Melo is a talented player.

Amazing 1v1 scorer.

However... he can be a ball stopper at times (holds the ball) and even as a scorer he is frequently inconsistent/inefficient.

Volume scorers that are inefficient/inconsistent don't tend to have huge impact or become great players to build around.
If he developed his passing, took better shots and learned how to play off the ball better he would be much more effective.

BklynKnicks3
08-30-2012, 03:39 PM
want to bring up bs stats fine

The New York Knicks became one of 10 team to purchase a multi-camera system from STATS, LLC that tracks every movement in an NBA game.

Carmelo Anthony was the most efficient player in the NBA of all players who drove the ball at least 40 times in camera-recorded games during the 11-12 season. New York scored 1.66 points per possession on those trips. Anthony shot the ball on 55 percent of those drives and drew fouls on 25 percent of them. Anthony shot just better than 50 percent.

But Anthony drove just 3.1 times per game, equivalent to the same rate as Chandler Parsons and Luol Deng.

Anthony also ranked No. 1 on points per possession on all of his elbow touches. Anthony shot 62 percent on shots taken after an elbow touch.

Read more: http://basketball.******.com/nba/teams/New_York_Knicks/20/news#ixzz253lpbiso

Hawkeye15
08-30-2012, 03:48 PM
want to bring up bs stats fine

The New York Knicks became one of 10 team to purchase a multi-camera system from STATS, LLC that tracks every movement in an NBA game.

Carmelo Anthony was the most efficient player in the NBA of all players who drove the ball at least 40 times in camera-recorded games during the 11-12 season. New York scored 1.66 points per possession on those trips. Anthony shot the ball on 55 percent of those drives and drew fouls on 25 percent of them. Anthony shot just better than 50 percent.

But Anthony drove just 3.1 times per game, equivalent to the same rate as Chandler Parsons and Luol Deng.

Anthony also ranked No. 1 on points per possession on all of his elbow touches. Anthony shot 62 percent on shots taken after an elbow touch.

Read more: http://basketball.******.com/nba/teams/New_York_Knicks/20/news#ixzz253lpbiso

Maybe he should drive more, instead of shooting 3's and highly contested long 2's off the dribble with 12 seconds on the shot clock...

Hawkeye15
08-30-2012, 03:49 PM
the thing with Melo remains, we know he CAN be a highly efficient player, but he ISN'T, because of the decisions he makes. That is what separates him from LeBron, Durant, Dwight, Love, Paul, Dirk, Kobe, and some of the other elite efficiency guys. They DO stick to their strengths at all times.

Hustlenomics
08-30-2012, 03:53 PM
carmelo Rated Amongst NBA's Most Efficient On Drives, Touches At Elbow
Aug 30, 2012 1:15 PM EDT

The New York Knicks became one of 10 team to purchase a multi-camera system from STATS, LLC that tracks every movement in an NBA game.

Carmelo Anthony was the most efficient player in the NBA of all players who drove the ball at least 40 times in camera-recorded games during the 11-12 season. New York scored 1.66 points per possession on those trips. Anthony shot the ball on 55 percent of those drives and drew fouls on 25 percent of them. Anthony shot just better than 50 percent.

But Anthony drove just 3.1 times per game, equivalent to the same rate as Chandler Parsons and Luol Deng.

Anthony also ranked No. 1 on points per possession on all of his elbow touches. Anthony shot 62 percent on shots taken after an elbow touch

Jesse2272
08-30-2012, 03:55 PM
the thing with Melo remains, we know he CAN be a highly efficient player, but he ISN'T, because of the decisions he makes. That is what separates him from LeBron, Durant, Dwight, Love, Paul, Dirk, Kobe, and some of the other elite efficiency guys. They DO stick to their strengths at all times.

This seasom withstands

I hope u eat crow and not I

I might share some

crow is good

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Hawkeye15
08-30-2012, 03:57 PM
This seasom withstands

I hope u eat crow and not I

I might share some

crow is good

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

yeah yeah. We are evaluating off 9 years. I just can't see Melo completely changing his focus and decision making overnight. But hey, I hope he does, I like watching great players play their best.

Hawkeye15
08-30-2012, 03:58 PM
carmelo Rated Amongst NBA's Most Efficient On Drives, Touches At Elbow
Aug 30, 2012 1:15 PM EDT

The New York Knicks became one of 10 team to purchase a multi-camera system from STATS, LLC that tracks every movement in an NBA game.

Carmelo Anthony was the most efficient player in the NBA of all players who drove the ball at least 40 times in camera-recorded games during the 11-12 season. New York scored 1.66 points per possession on those trips. Anthony shot the ball on 55 percent of those drives and drew fouls on 25 percent of them. Anthony shot just better than 50 percent.

But Anthony drove just 3.1 times per game, equivalent to the same rate as Chandler Parsons and Luol Deng.

Anthony also ranked No. 1 on points per possession on all of his elbow touches. Anthony shot 62 percent on shots taken after an elbow touch

So, you absolutely hate stats when they don't paint Rondo and AI where you view them, but you will use on arbitrary stat to try and push up Melo?

Jesse2272
08-30-2012, 03:58 PM
Chronz will have to join in if we have a bite

Hubris-period end of story

Jesse2272
08-30-2012, 03:59 PM
yeah yeah. We are evaluating off 9 years. I just can't see Melo completely changing his focus and decision making overnight. But hey, I hope he does, I like watching great players play their best.

Whats your equal to my my desire-no homo

Hawkeye15
08-30-2012, 03:59 PM
Chronz will have to join in if we have a bite

Hubris-period end of story

I just can't talk smack to someone who has my favorite baseball player of all time as his sig.

Jesse2272
08-30-2012, 04:01 PM
I just can't talk smack to someone who has my favorite baseball player of all time as his sig.

LOL, not a gambling man, odds are out there this year

Jesse2272
08-30-2012, 04:04 PM
Most posters on here I understand the shared premise of chronz/hawkeye, guys, on the low, I believe in next year, all fill the insane void I just created

BklynKnicks3
08-30-2012, 04:10 PM
the thing with Melo remains, we know he CAN be a highly efficient player, but he ISN'T, because of the decisions he makes. That is what separates him from LeBron, Durant, Dwight, Love, Paul, Dirk, Kobe, and some of the other elite efficiency guys. They DO stick to their strengths at all times.

so kobe doesnt shoot fadeaways with 3 people on him when he can get a better shot. People need to stop with this kevin Love stuff he is no teven close to melo. His defense sucks he is a great rebounder and can shoot he doesnt have anytype of post game. He is a rich mans david lee

Hawkeye15
08-30-2012, 04:16 PM
so kobe doesnt shoot fadeaways with 3 people on him when he can get a better shot. People need to stop with this kevin Love stuff he is no teven close to melo. His defense sucks he is a great rebounder and can shoot he doesnt have anytype of post game. He is a rich mans david lee

Not as often as Melo. Tell me, can you explain why Kobe's PER, Offensive ratings, Win Shares, WS/48, APER, and every other possible metric rate him as a more efficient offensive player? I can. Can you?

As for Love, I could care less what your opinion is, you don't understand statistics, efficiency, nor watch the Wolves. What possible frame of reference could you have? Any answer you provide to this rhetorical question will be ignored by the way. Love is a better player than Melo.

Jesse2272
08-30-2012, 04:16 PM
so kobe doesnt shoot fadeaways with 3 people on him when he can get a better shot. People need to stop with this kevin Love stuff he is no teven close to melo. His defense sucks he is a great rebounder and can shoot he doesnt have anytype of post game. He is a rich mans david lee

BKNY

love your dedication fo real

BigCityofDreams
08-30-2012, 04:20 PM
I just can't talk smack to someone who has my favorite baseball player of all time as his sig.

:worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy:

BklynKnicks3
08-30-2012, 04:27 PM
Not as often as Melo. Tell me, can you explain why Kobe's PER, Offensive ratings, Win Shares, WS/48, APER, and every other possible metric rate him as a more efficient offensive player? I can. Can you?

As for Love, I could care less what your opinion is, you don't understand statistics, efficiency, nor watch the Wolves. What possible frame of reference could you have? Any answer you provide to this rhetorical question will be ignored by the way. Love is a better player than Melo.

its because Kobe has been on a better team for a long time now take a look at kobes ws/48 when his team didnt make the playoffs with Caron butler

Hawkeye15
08-30-2012, 06:34 PM
its because Kobe has been on a better team for a long time now take a look at kobes ws/48 when his team didnt make the playoffs with Caron butler

Kobe's worst year, efficiency wise, would be one of Melo's top 2 years, and if we factor in defense, Kobe's worst year is better than Melo's best year.

Now, explain why Love kicks the crap out of Melo in win shares, WS/48, PER, and any other offensive metric measuring efficiency, since he has been on bad teams. This will crap on your theory that win shares only come from good teams.

Hawkeye15
08-30-2012, 06:35 PM
:worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy:

****ing Arizona Diamondbacks. But seriously, Mariano is my favorite player of all time, he knocked Donny Baseball of that perch 10 years ago.

ClearSoulForce
08-30-2012, 11:30 PM
****ing Arizona Diamondbacks. But seriously, Mariano is my favorite player of all time, he knocked Donny Baseball of that perch 10 years ago.

Mind giving me a link where I can find top WS/48 season by season?

Aust
08-30-2012, 11:38 PM
You sure do love to hate Chronz

Chill_Will_24
08-31-2012, 12:40 AM
Melo is overrated and has always been. I am so glad the Nets dodged that bullet. Deron is not a franchise player but he does more for us than Melo would have, that's for sure.

Evolution23
08-31-2012, 12:56 AM
Not as often as Melo. Tell me, can you explain why Kobe's PER, Offensive ratings, Win Shares, WS/48, APER, and every other possible metric rate him as a more efficient offensive player? I can. Can you?

As for Love, I could care less what your opinion is, you don't understand statistics, efficiency, nor watch the Wolves. What possible frame of reference could you have? Any answer you provide to this rhetorical question will be ignored by the way. Love is a better player than Melo.

Love has to carry the wolves to the playoffs before you can say that.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2012, 06:57 AM
Mind giving me a link where I can find top WS/48 season by season?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi

its a pain, you have to do one season at a time, but just pick the season to the left, and then pick the criteria as WS/48. I would suggest setting a minimum so role players don't pop in there, something like a minimum of 25 mpg.

Jesse2272
08-31-2012, 07:14 AM
Hawkeye for president

:9/11:

tcav701
08-31-2012, 07:53 AM
Why is it impossible to make a thread without a fan base labeling it a "bait thread"?

Are people really that sensitive/insecure?

Is it healthy to live vicariously through a sports team and their players?

tcav701
08-31-2012, 07:54 AM
But anyways, to touch on this topic, Melo is inefficient and a defensive liability.

However, to claim he isnt the best player on the Knicks is rediculous.

I doubt any GM, starting a team from scratch, would take Chandler over Melo.

b@llhog24
08-31-2012, 01:53 PM
want to bring up bs stats fine

The New York Knicks became one of 10 team to purchase a multi-camera system from STATS, LLC that tracks every movement in an NBA game.

Carmelo Anthony was the most efficient player in the NBA of all players who drove the ball at least 40 times in camera-recorded games during the 11-12 season. New York scored 1.66 points per possession on those trips. Anthony shot the ball on 55 percent of those drives and drew fouls on 25 percent of them. Anthony shot just better than 50 percent.

But Anthony drove just 3.1 times per game, equivalent to the same rate as Chandler Parsons and Luol Deng.

Anthony also ranked No. 1 on points per possession on all of his elbow touches. Anthony shot 62 percent on shots taken after an elbow touch.

Read more: http://basketball.******.com/nba/teams/New_York_Knicks/20/news#ixzz253lpbiso

If it's BS why would you bring it up?


carmelo Rated Amongst NBA's Most Efficient On Drives, Touches At Elbow
Aug 30, 2012 1:15 PM EDT

The New York Knicks became one of 10 team to purchase a multi-camera system from STATS, LLC that tracks every movement in an NBA game.

Carmelo Anthony was the most efficient player in the NBA of all players who drove the ball at least 40 times in camera-recorded games during the 11-12 season. New York scored 1.66 points per possession on those trips. Anthony shot the ball on 55 percent of those drives and drew fouls on 25 percent of them. Anthony shot just better than 50 percent.

But Anthony drove just 3.1 times per game, equivalent to the same rate as Chandler Parsons and Luol Deng.

Anthony also ranked No. 1 on points per possession on all of his elbow touches. Anthony shot 62 percent on shots taken after an elbow touch

:facepalm:


Kobe's worst year, efficiency wise, would be one of Melo's top 2 years, and if we factor in defense, Kobe's worst year is better than Melo's best year.

Now, explain why Love kicks the crap out of Melo in win shares, WS/48, PER, and any other offensive metric measuring efficiency, since he has been on bad teams. This will crap on your theory that win shares only come from good teams.

:laugh2:


Melo is overrated and has always been. I am so glad the Nets dodged that bullet. Deron is not a franchise player but he does more for us than Melo would have, that's for sure.

Actually the production differential isn't that far off. Considering the team that the Nets had for the last two years I'm sure Melo would have been productive for the Nets than Deron was.


But anyways, to touch on this topic, Melo is inefficient and a defensive liability.

However, to claim he isnt the best player on the Knicks is rediculous.

I doubt any GM, starting a team from scratch, would take Chandler over Melo.

Most GMs draft on a "best player available" creed, which based on all the available information at the time, is primarily based on talent. Beasley is more talented than Love, but he sure as heck isn't a better player.

joeystats
08-31-2012, 02:05 PM
who knows