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View Full Version : Gonzalez blames Fenway for lack of power



AI
08-28-2012, 02:47 AM
"What took my power away was the Green Monster. ... I used to hit line drives that way and they would be doubles. That took away five home runs from me last year. So I would have had 32."

That's funny, it also gave him a crapload of 2B's which would've been lazy flyballs at any other other ballpark. Stop making excuses...

toovey107
08-28-2012, 02:51 AM
Pretty lame of him.

Nomar
08-28-2012, 02:56 AM
Wow thats mad lame.

Say what you want about Beckett, but he never makes excuses like AGon does.

Crucis
08-28-2012, 03:25 AM
That's funny, it also gave him a crapload of 2B's which would've been lazy flyballs at any other other ballpark. Stop making excuses...

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that he's wrong. Sure, some lazy fly balls probably turned into wall-balls (or HR's). But maybe some hard liners off the wall would have been HR's in other ball parks. That's just the way Fenway is. That's why it's much more of a doubles park than a HR park. The Wall Giveth and The Wall Taketh Away.

thefirerises
08-28-2012, 03:42 AM
woooowwwwwww. He really needs to quit talking about his past with the sox and making excuses. Just move on already. If the media asks him questions bout the sox and i was him i'd simply say, "let's talk about here and now not then." he's no longer a red sox player, he's a dodger now, so maybe he should quit making excuses about something that's over and done with. At least Beckett never made this obscene amount of excuses.

Crucis
08-28-2012, 08:36 AM
woooowwwwwww. He really needs to quit talking about his past with the sox and making excuses. Just move on already. If the media asks him questions bout the sox and i was him i'd simply say, "let's talk about here and now not then." he's no longer a red sox player, he's a dodger now, so maybe he should quit making excuses about something that's over and done with. At least Beckett never made this obscene amount of excuses.

So, let me get this straight.

If Gonzo played in a ball park where the fences were set at 500 ft down the lines and 600 ft to dead center field, and he never hit any HR's, if he actually pointed out these facts, that would be "making excuses" in your book?

AI
08-28-2012, 08:46 AM
I'm sorry, but he is making excuses. His lack of player can be explained due to his poor plate approach this year. His BB% this year is 6.1% this year, that's easily his worst mark since 2004 when he made his debut with the Rangers. What does this mean? He's not working counts, therefore he's not getting pitches he can drive.

I can understand that the Green Monster does take away some bombs, but it also gives you a lot of hard hit singles and lazy flyball 2B's. His lack of power is on him, not the ballpark.

infernoscurse
08-28-2012, 08:48 AM
i dont see why a player would complain about the green monster, thats like curtis granderson saying that short porch took away all those triples i used to hit

Station 13
08-28-2012, 08:55 AM
i dont see why a player would complain about the green monster, thats like curtis granderson saying that short porch took away all those triples i used to hit

Maybe he wants to lower the monster by 30 feet.

Crucis
08-28-2012, 09:07 AM
I'm sorry, but he is making excuses. His lack of player can be explained due to his poor plate approach this year. His BB% this year is 6.1% this year, that's easily his worst mark since 2004 when he made his debut with the Rangers. What does this mean? He's not working counts, therefore he's not getting pitches he can drive.

I can understand that the Green Monster does take away some bombs, but it also gives you a lot of hard hit singles and lazy flyball 2B's. His lack of power is on him, not the ballpark.

AI, you had a decent enough post going untdil you said that the Wall "gives you a lot of hard hit singles". That's such utter bullchit! Any "hard hit single" that the Wall "gives you" would almost certainly be a hard hit double or HR in any other ballpark. So the Wall didn't "give" you jack on those balls. It took away.

As for the rest, I'm personally tired of the clichéd use of claiming that a ball player is "making excuses" when he's engaging in self-analysis. It's mostly nothing but rah-rah macho BS. It you want to say that he had a poor approach at the plate, go for it. At least that's an attempt at decent analysis.

Crucis
08-28-2012, 09:13 AM
Maybe he wants to lower the monster by 30 feet.

Well, I'm sure that Mike Lowell and Jim Rice would both have hit a lot more HR's if the wall was about 20' shorter. I seem to remember both of them regularly peppering the wall with laser shots that would likely be HR's in other ball parks.

Of course, I also remember when Rice played in old, old Yankee Stadium back in the 70's before the OF wall in Death Valley was pulled in, how he'd hit these MAMMOTH shots out to deep left-center, only to have Mickey Rivers run them down. I'm sure that Jim Ed would have loved playing in Yankee Stadium after those fences were pulled in in the early 90's.

Crucis
08-28-2012, 09:18 AM
i dont see why a player would complain about the green monster, thats like curtis granderson saying that short porch took away all those triples i used to hit

IC, now that's a silly comparison.

Replacing a lot of triples with a lot of HR's is a total win-win for Granderson. However, the Green Monster is NOT a win-win for every player. It turns some balls that might be outs into HR's or doubles, and turns some balls that's be doubles or HR's into singles.

AI
08-28-2012, 09:23 AM
AI, you had a decent enough post going untdil you said that the Wall "gives you a lot of hard hit singles". That's such utter bullchit! Any "hard hit single" that the Wall "gives you" would almost certainly be a hard hit double or HR in any other ballpark. So the Wall didn't "give" you jack on those balls. It took away.

Reason I say singles, is because in A-Gon's case he is so damn slow that he can only manage to get to 1B. Any other player and it would most likely be a wall ball 2B.

EEasyA
08-28-2012, 09:31 AM
Stop making excuses for Agon.even if what he said was true,you just don't say it.A ball player is suppose to adjust to any situations.and seem to remember a lot of people including agon saying fenway is made for his swing and he was going to pepper the green monster with 50 hrs.what a joke

EEasyA
08-28-2012, 09:32 AM
Using my blackberry bold to write this now so if they were any mistakes,apologize

GoldDustTwin
08-28-2012, 10:30 AM
I think these posts that are ending with "well, at least Beckett never made excuses".....
are extremely rich.

As a couple of people have said - Gonzalez pointed out a fact. Shame on him. Making excuses all the way through almost 10 WAR in 1-3/4 seasons. Bum.

No, Beckett never made excuses; people who don't care never do.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-28-2012, 12:08 PM
On the radio yesterday Felger and Mazz were saying he's the type of player that probably follows his stats very closely throughout the season. They were right:laugh2:

Anyways, he needs to move on and stop making excuses.

-Lavigne43-
08-28-2012, 12:15 PM
Fenway does suppress home runs more than most parks, but it's no Petco. Everything else goes way up too, especially doubles.

Away HR's
2009: 28
2010: 20
2011: 17
2012: 7 (in well over half the season)

AL parks are smaller than NL parks, and 3 of the most hr happy parks are in this division. Yes, your power is going down.

-Lavigne43-
08-28-2012, 12:17 PM
Also, how ridiculous is this interview: http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2012/08/28/after-losing-to-the-rockies-josh-beckett-takes-on-t-j-simers/

Nomar
08-28-2012, 12:40 PM
Also, how ridiculous is this interview: http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2012/08/28/after-losing-to-the-rockies-josh-beckett-takes-on-t-j-simers/

Haha what is this? That guy is an ******* though.

JPBoston
08-28-2012, 01:46 PM
Also, how ridiculous is this interview: http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2012/08/28/after-losing-to-the-rockies-josh-beckett-takes-on-t-j-simers/

Is that even real? The last third read like an SNL skit.

Loaded up WEEI a minute ago and some national-sounding windbags were talking about the trade... a broad was yapping that "nobody" in the Boston media had ANYTHING bad to say about Beckett and crew till after they were traded. Rich stuff.

Super.
08-28-2012, 02:17 PM
They're gone, who the **** cares

redsoxslinky
08-28-2012, 03:05 PM
i wish adrian gonzalez would get over the whole thing and like someone pointed out and just talk about being a dodger now. Hes always made excuses starting with that the sox played too many night games last year, that the sox traded him because he wasnt "a leader" and didnt express himself like everyone else. Now because of the Monster. It can be true that it did hurt or whatever his power but the real fact is that he cant play in the big light markets of boston or new york. Not all athletes can handle it

Nomar
08-28-2012, 03:18 PM
I just interviewed Adrian Gonzalez.

Here's how it went:

Adrian, how did you feel about your Dodgers debut?

I'm coming out of the closet.

That's completely off-topic.

No, it's actually not. The reason i seem so whiny and make these excuses is because I'm frustrated with hiding the truth about my sexuality. Now that the truth is out, I will find success and hit 40 home runs again.

Good talk Mr. Gonzalez.

*Gonzalez blows a kiss*

americaspasttim
08-28-2012, 03:42 PM
i dont see why a player would complain about the green monster, thats like curtis granderson saying that short porch took away all those triples i used to hit
:laugh2:

Pavelb1
08-28-2012, 04:19 PM
What he should have said is '.513 slugging. What the **** are you talking about where did my power go? STFU'.

Well...that's what *I* say to everyone who complains about AGons walks and HRs.

SDP: .288/.374/.514
BOS: .321/.382/.513

"Have fun with Mauro Gomez or Carlos Pena or whatever else scrub you get, and have fun swallowing whatever 'poverty excuse' your gold-plated yacht driving owner shoves down your throat, my boy Magic is in it to win Chulo.....yeahhh......"

ccspence8
08-28-2012, 04:36 PM
AGon does know he has more HRs at home than on the road...and hit 42 points higher at Fenway in probably great thanks to the monster. He's such a baby man.

Pavelb1
08-28-2012, 04:44 PM
AGon does know he has more HRs at home than on the road...and hit 42 points higher at Fenway in probably great thanks to the monster. He's such a baby man.

Everyone who leaves the Red Sox are babies and whiners remember?

sawxfan
08-28-2012, 06:23 PM
Who cares? The guy pointed out something he felt to be true. I'm guessing that there was a whole interview before and after the few words that were pulled. I'm really sick of Red Sox fans needing to demonize anyone that goes on to play somewhere else.

You could also say that his approach to the plate was changed because he went from playing 1st base, where he is a GGer, to playing one of the toughest RF in the majors. That I think is true.

What he said was nothing. Just like he needs to move on, so do the fans. I have no clue how this would upset anyone. Thank you Adrian for putting up great numbers and being a team player by playing RF. Also thank you for being a big enough trade bait that we were able to shed one awful contract and one awful person.

tonyd3b54
08-28-2012, 07:25 PM
pretty right of him..

PraiseJesus
08-28-2012, 08:29 PM
Also, how ridiculous is this interview: http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2012/08/28/after-losing-to-the-rockies-josh-beckett-takes-on-t-j-simers/

TJ Simers is a clown nobody in LA takes him seriously. Total joke of a journalist

GoldDustTwin
08-28-2012, 09:01 PM
I just interviewed Adrian Gonzalez.

Here's how it went:

Adrian, how did you feel about your Dodgers debut?

I'm coming out of the closet.

That's completely off-topic.

No, it's actually not. The reason i seem so whiny and make these excuses is because I'm frustrated with hiding the truth about my sexuality. Now that the truth is out, I will find success and hit 40 home runs again.

Good talk Mr. Gonzalez.

*Gonzalez blows a kiss*

What are you, 8?

Nomar
08-28-2012, 09:02 PM
What are you, 8?

What a hater

Greenmonster24
08-28-2012, 09:23 PM
Anyone wish we resign Beltra instead and still had Casey Kelly and Rizzo instead of trading for Gonzalas. Should have if anything try trade for Jose Baistate of Toronto instead with a less package. Youklis would stay a great defense firstbaseman with great eye at the plate.

AI
08-28-2012, 09:25 PM
I keep on thinking we are getting trolled by you. Who is Beltra? Gonzalas? Baistate? Youklis? I mean, seriously, you can't be this stupid.

Nomar
08-28-2012, 09:28 PM
If you seriously want to take it into hypothetical situations, we wouldnt have some of our first round picks last year which were pretty damn good. Both trading for Gonzo and the trade with LA were good deals for Boston.

tonyd3b54
08-28-2012, 11:17 PM
threads like this where everyone just trashes the old guy on the way out are filled with the kind of people luchinno is trying to reach. This is luchinno tactics 101

AI
08-28-2012, 11:21 PM
threads like this where everyone just trashes the old guy on the way out are filled with the kind of people luchinno is trying to reach. This is luchinno tactics 101

How is it Lucchino tactics? A-Gon did this to himself by blaming the ballpark for his lack of power.

Nomar
08-29-2012, 01:38 AM
It's crazy how big these stories get in all seriousness. I joked around before but i dont see how this can really bother us. Besides the stats back Gonzalez up so its not like hes blowing things out of proportion. If people were smart Gonzalez wouldnt even have to justify himself. If i were him i wouldve just moved on and kept quiet, no good is going to come talking about Boston.

TragicallyHip
08-29-2012, 11:55 AM
"What took my power away was the Green Monster. ... I used to hit line drives that way and they would be doubles. That took away five home runs from me last year. So I would have had 32."

Ohh is that what it was Adrian?? I just assumed it was God's Will.

-Lavigne43-
08-29-2012, 01:03 PM
It's not Lucchino tactics at all. AGon brings it on himself. Even when he's right he sounds like a player full of excuses, like when he complained about the tv schedule last year.

Nomar
08-29-2012, 01:09 PM
People just get annoyed because everything about AGon is so soft.

Hes the Charmin bear.

tonyd3b54
08-29-2012, 02:52 PM
it was the ball park. go back and watch Agon in san diego and you'll see hes not a fly ball hitter. all his hrs are screaming line drives that barely make its out in LF. Everyone creamed their pants thinking Agon would come over and hit 50HRs but those people were idiots. and now everyone is trashing him on his way out. luchinno tactics. you guys can rationalize it anyway you want but the bashing a player after hes left part is pure luchinno tactics...

TragicallyHip
08-29-2012, 02:55 PM
I'm not bashing him, I'm just saying if you're going to blame God's Will for your team not making it to the playoffs how can you say it was the ballpark that robbed him of HR's and not God's Will that he didn't hit more HR's.

I like Gonzo, and he was the price we had to pay to rid ourselves of Beckett and Crawford but the dude is a hypocrite in every sense of the word.

Nomar
08-29-2012, 03:10 PM
All bias aside, Gonzalez is a great player but hes far from a leader. He doesnt have a strong presence in the clubhouse. He doesnt cause problems, but dont expect him to take charge really.

bagwell368
09-09-2012, 04:08 PM
All bias aside, Gonzalez is a great player but hes far from a leader. He doesnt have a strong presence in the clubhouse. He doesnt cause problems, but dont expect him to take charge really.

Why is this an issue? I thought Pedroia was supposed to be the "C" without the "C" on his jersey?

Pedroia came out as a crony in the spring with his comments about "we don't do things like that here". Go drag King Pedey through the mud why don't you?

Or what about Ortiz? Mr. Clutch and Mr. Leader - oh sorry, forgot he abdicated after 2007. He's just part of the furniture now, but nobody actually expects him to lead - unless its breaking into an interview and asking about his lost RBI.

It is a LL style smear against Agon. He didn't justify himself in SD, because nobody cared in the media. So he comes across as both naive and an excuse maker here? Big deal, he MORE then earned the money he was paid by us AND allowed us to smear the human booger known as CC off on LAD.

I'm sorry to see him go, even if I understand why it was done. That's doesn't deserve a boot in the *** out the door, unless one boots everyone in the *** on the way out of the door as a habit.

Nomar
09-09-2012, 04:16 PM
Why is this an issue? I thought Pedroia was supposed to be the "C" without the "C" on his jersey?

Pedroia came out as a crony in the spring with his comments about "we don't do things like that here". Go drag King Pedey through the mud why don't you?

Or what about Ortiz? Mr. Clutch and Mr. Leader - oh sorry, forgot he abdicated after 2007. He's just part of the furniture now, but nobody actually expects him to lead - unless its breaking into an interview and asking about his lost RBI.

It is a LL style smear against Agon. He didn't justify himself in SD, because nobody cared in the media. So he comes across as both naive and an excuse maker here? Big deal, he MORE then earned the money he was paid by us AND allowed us to smear the human booger known as CC off on LAD.

I'm sorry to see him go, even if I understand why it was done. That's doesn't deserve a boot in the *** out the door, unless one boots everyone in the *** on the way out of the door as a habit.

You act as if that was a boot in the ***, when all that I meant is that people can't expect him to be a leader just because he is a great player. I like him, and out of those three he's the only one im rooting for.

bagwell368
09-09-2012, 06:29 PM
You act as if that was a boot in the ***, when all that I meant is that people can't expect him to be a leader just because he is a great player. I like him, and out of those three he's the only one im rooting for.

My bad I originally started thinking just about your post, but expanded the range w/o noting what I was doing.

Nomar
09-09-2012, 09:03 PM
My bad I originally started thinking just about your post, but expanded the range w/o noting what I was doing.

Haha it's all good man

BostonSports96
09-09-2012, 09:43 PM
"O-VER-RATED!" *clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*

Scully in 2012
09-09-2012, 10:03 PM
Chavez Ravine must have a green monster too. He hasn't done crap for us either.

bagwell368
09-09-2012, 10:09 PM
Adrian Gonzalez was paid $21M dollars by the Red Sox in his 1.77 seasons here, and according to Fan Graphs produced $42M in output.

Remember that old show "Andy Griffith"? "Overrated" is pretty much what Gomer or Goober might say I reckon.

StryderSox
09-10-2012, 03:20 PM
Adrian Gonzalez was paid $21M dollars by the Red Sox in his 1.77 seasons here, and according to Fan Graphs produced $42M in output.

Remember that old show "Andy Griffith"? "Overrated" is pretty much what Gomer or Goober might say I reckon.

But I dont understand Bags..... Isnt hitting a homerun the only way you can provide offense in baseball?

AI
09-10-2012, 05:45 PM
Chavez Ravine must have a green monster too. He hasn't done crap for us either.

His decline in power and walks raises a red flag, hopefully he turns it around.

-Lavigne43-
09-10-2012, 06:12 PM
This has nothing to do with Luchhino. He was asked by a LA writer why his power was down with the Red Sox and he said it was because of the Green Monster. Fenway does suppress homers, but it doesn't suppress them more than PetCo, and the other AL East parks are easier to hit homers in than the ones in the NL West. His power has gone down and he won't hit as many doubles as he did in Fenway, you have to wonder about his shoulder.

I hate to see him gone and he was worth his contract. That being said, you can't fault someone for getting annoyed at his comments because they do come across as lame excuses, just like his complaints about the national tv schedule last year.

SirHizz
09-10-2012, 08:05 PM
Adrian Gonzalez was paid $21M dollars by the Red Sox in his 1.77 seasons here, and according to Fan Graphs produced $42M in output.

Remember that old show "Andy Griffith"? "Overrated" is pretty much what Gomer or Goober might say I reckon.

2009: 28m
2010: 20.8m
2011: 29.5m
2012: 12.8m

While I agree that we got a great amount of value (compared to actual paid dollars) out of him, the topic is much different.
There is a legit reason to be concerned about his power-stroke. Your nice 42m-stat over around 2 years says nothing. If it was 21m - 21m, it would be great, but a difference of 16.7m dollars (WAR comparison: 2011: 6.8 - 2012: 2.8) is worrisome.
Remember, A-Gon is supposed to be in his prime years.

If A-Gon puts up another "absymal" (for what he's obviously capable of) season next year, you could argue that we cashed in on him at the right time.

His short time (I know small smaple size) in LA figures that it wasn't only because of the green monster though, he's just not having a great year. That's why I didn't like that excuse to begin with.

Edit: But hey, at least the green monster statement wasn't as obnoxious and ridiculous as his "it wasn't in god's plan" excuse. So he's heading forward.

Crucis
09-10-2012, 09:07 PM
This has nothing to do with Luchhino. He was asked by a LA writer why his power was down with the Red Sox and he said it was because of the Green Monster. Fenway does suppress homers, but it doesn't suppress them more than PetCo, and the other AL East parks are easier to hit homers in than the ones in the NL West. His power has gone down and he won't hit as many doubles as he did in Fenway, you have to wonder about his shoulder.

Lav, IIRC, didn't Gonzo hit a lot more homers away from Petco than at home when he was a Padre?

-Lavigne43-
09-11-2012, 06:04 PM
Of course. Which is why it's lame to say his home runs are down because of Fenway. Both his hr totals and away hr totals have gone down 4 straight years. The AL east has 3 of the easiest parks to hit hr's in baseball. If his hr power was the same his away totals would not have dropped so significantly, they should have increased.

Nomar
09-11-2012, 06:08 PM
His power after shoulder surgery never was the same, i think it really is that simple. That doesnt mean he cant be a great hitter though, but it does mean people cannot just expect him to be a 40 HR guy again. Plus, there are far less big HR numbers in the MLB each year today then there were 8+ years ago.

corky831
09-12-2012, 11:25 AM
well in his 16 games with the dodgers, Agon has a .636 OPS with 1 HR. I am extremely happy we dumped all that salary on the dodgers, one of the best trades I can remember.

Nomar
09-12-2012, 11:27 AM
well in his 16 games with the dodgers, Agon has a .636 OPS with 1 HR. I am extremely happy we dumped all that salary on the dodgers, one of the best trades I can remember.

Im sure he will have at least an .830 OPS every year for them, but regardless it was a great trade for us.

SirHizz
09-12-2012, 03:55 PM
This just in: Adrian Gonzalez blames huge dimensions in NL west for his power struggles.

Well, he was one of my favorite players before getting traded to the Sox, even last year, but he lost most of his credit by making stupid mistakes.
I still expect him to be a productive and good baseball player from here on. His contract is another great asset.
BUT...I am somehow glad he's gone, he's not you typical player you want on your team who's supposed to contend year afetr year.
Imagine had we traded Pedroia along with Beckett and CC. Yeah, the outcry would have been MUCH MUCH bigger. That's why personality matters. It feels like nobody in Beantown is missing Adrian at all.

Nomar
09-12-2012, 04:18 PM
This just in: Adrian Gonzalez blames huge dimensions in NL west for his power struggles.

Well, he was one of my favorite players before getting traded to the Sox, even last year, but he lost most of his credit by making stupid mistakes.
I still expect him to be a productive and good baseball player from here on. His contract is another great asset.
BUT...I am somehow glad he's gone, he's not you typical player you want on your team who's supposed to contend year afetr year.
Imagine had we traded Pedroia along with Beckett and CC. Yeah, the outcry would have been MUCH MUCH bigger. That's why personality matters. It feels like nobody in Beantown is missing Adrian at all.

Its not even Pedroia's personality that makes him more valuable.

The numbers Pedroia puts up as a 2B are more valuable than what Gonzalez brings.

Gonzalez and Pedroia had great years last year, but fangraphs shows that Pedroia earned $35M with his play and Gonzalez earned $29M. Pedroia has passed the $30M mark twice already in his career and besides his rookie year has never had a full season worth less than $22M. Gonzalez has passed the $20M mark in 3 out of his 7 full seasons and has never reached $30M.

Pedroia is more valuable that Gonzalez on and, in most eyes, off of the field.

Crucis
09-12-2012, 04:32 PM
This just in: Adrian Gonzalez blames huge dimensions in NL west for his power struggles.

Well, he was one of my favorite players before getting traded to the Sox, even last year, but he lost most of his credit by making stupid mistakes.
I still expect him to be a productive and good baseball player from here on. His contract is another great asset.
BUT...I am somehow glad he's gone, he's not you typical player you want on your team who's supposed to contend year afetr year.
Imagine had we traded Pedroia along with Beckett and CC. Yeah, the outcry would have been MUCH MUCH bigger. That's why personality matters. It feels like nobody in Beantown is missing Adrian at all.

I wouldn't go that far. Oh sure, the numbers that Nomar_RA cited may claim to show that Pedrioa is a more valuable 2b-man than Gonzo is a 1B-man, but I think that it's a stretch to say that Gonzo isn't missed. I miss him greatly. But I also accept that including him in the deal was necessary to make the deal happen.

SirHizz
09-12-2012, 04:43 PM
Its not even Pedroia's personality that makes him more valuable.

The numbers Pedroia puts up as a 2B are more valuable than what Gonzalez brings.

Gonzalez and Pedroia had great years last year, but fangraphs shows that Pedroia earned $35M with his play and Gonzalez earned $29M. Pedroia has passed the $30M mark twice already in his career and besides his rookie year has never had a full season worth less than $22M. Gonzalez has passed the $20M mark in 3 out of his 7 full seasons and has never reached $30M.

Pedroia is more valuable that Gonzalez on and, in most eyes, off of the field.

Agreed, if you factor in the position, that makes Pedey even more valuable. But I used Pedroia just as an exmaple to show how insignificant the loss of Adrian Gonzalez is.
I tend to think we got rid of him at the right time, if he duplicates his current season in 2013, he could be declared unmoveable (not that the Dodgers would trade him anyways)

It still baffles me that Adrian was so valuable to the Dodgers that made them taking on 2 horrendous contracts AND handing us 2 top pitching specs, with both of them being near ML ready.

@Crucis: Of course we are missing him (it's unlikely we are going to see a better 1B in Boston over the next 4-5 years)...just not to the degree I expected it to be. As good as the trade has been for us, I was expecting typical phrases like "While it was a great trade for us, seeing Adrian go makes me sad". I almost never heard it. Responses were more like "Ok, we got rid of 2 horrible contracts and all it took was Gonzalez, I am fine with that".
Like I said, would have been MUCH different if it was Pedroia instead of A-Gon. That's telling, Adrian never really arrived in Boston to begin with.

bagwell368
09-12-2012, 09:30 PM
^

But Agon will still be putting up $20M+ seasons when Pedey is all done, or all banged up on the DL.

In general:

I'm usually on the side of revisionists, but in this case find myself made vaguely sick by the self congratulatory bleatings I am reading here. It is far from time to be passing final judgements on these players in general or Adrian Gonzalez in particular.

Crucis
09-12-2012, 09:37 PM
@Crucis: Of course we are missing him (it's unlikely we are going to see a better 1B in Boston over the next 4-5 years)...just not to the degree I expected it to be. As good as the trade has been for us, I was expecting typical phrases like "While it was a great trade for us, seeing Adrian go makes me sad". I almost never heard it. Responses were more like "Ok, we got rid of 2 horrible contracts and all it took was Gonzalez, I am fine with that".
Like I said, would have been MUCH different if it was Pedroia instead of A-Gon. That's telling, Adrian never really arrived in Boston to begin with.

What can I say? Red Sox Nation likes rah-rah dirt dogs and Pedrioa is the team's leading dirt dog these days. In that regard, it's hard to make a comparison between him and any player on the Sox roster. Besides, I can't see any fan base maintaining a level of rabid love for every one of the team's players. Gonzo may not have been rabidly loved, but I think that the fans really respected him and miss him... but understand that losing him was the price the team paid to get rid of Crawford and Beckett.

Or to use a Belechik-ism, it is what it is. ;)

SirHizz
09-12-2012, 10:08 PM
^

But Agon will still be putting up $20M+ seasons when Pedey is all done, or all banged up on the DL.

In general:

I'm usually on the side of revisionists, but in this case find myself made vaguely sick by the self congratulatory bleatings I am reading here. It is far from time to be passing final judgements on these players in general or Adrian Gonzalez in particular.

Very kindly of you telling us not to judge Adrian Gonzalez, yet you're basically doing that in your first sentence. You really can't know who of these 2 players will be having more productive seasons from here on, I'd say it's too close to call.
Dustin is over a year younger and isn't contingent on power with a bad shoulder.

@Crucis: I am typically not someone who's all that much into the "dirtdog" thing. I still think you need a mix of both, talent and hard-workers (or even more type of players). It's just that Dustin is the face of the franchise, something we had in mind for Gonzalez when he was traded to Boston. What can I say? That was never the case and would of never happended, Ben made a pretty darn good job of figuring that out real quick.

bagwell368
09-12-2012, 10:18 PM
Very kindly of you telling us not to judge Adrian Gonzalez, yet you're basically doing that in your first sentence. You really can't know who of these 2 players will be having more productive seasons from here on, I'd say it's too close to call.
Dustin is over a year younger and isn't contingent on power with a bad shoulder.

Pedey plays like a nut and has already suffered a number of nagging injuries. One of the reasons 2B are valuable is that they breakdown.

I'm not judging Pedey or Agon - just expressing my understanding of injuries over time in baseball at various positions.

SirHizz
09-12-2012, 11:01 PM
Pedey plays like a nut and has already suffered a number of nagging injuries. One of the reasons 2B are valuable is that they breakdown.

I'm not judging Pedey or Agon - just expressing my understanding of injuries over time in baseball at various positions.

You: "But Agon will still be putting up $20M+ seasons when Pedey is all done, or all banged up on the DL."

Maybe it's just me, but that statement sounds more absolute than "expressing an understanding". Well, I'd let that easily go, after all that's your typical posting-style, but I find it funny that you basically tell everyone who's making predicitions to shut it.
Frankly, you're doing that all the time.

Adrian Gonzalez has always been a lil bit overrated, mostly because of the label "Petco Park" and his elite year 2009.
Most of his stats this year are all time lows (not counting the years in Texas). And by a pretty good margin. On top of that, most of his 2012 value comes from his Defense. Still "nice to have", but not overly impressive at 1B, maybe the least valuable posotion in baseball.
Tell me whatever you want. Something smells fishy, the guy is not even hurting. He's feeling completely fine, has been all season long.

Isn't all that kinda worrisome? If I remember correctly, you were expecting him to have an exceptional year. Why is that? Because he's supposed to do that in his prime years.
Oh and did I already mention his wrecked shoulder?

So I'd reckon my opinion is somewhat legitimate or at least as fair as yours. Otherwise we couldn't be judging any player before they call it quits.
Maybe you are not so quick jumping to conclusions this time, because you were the one telling us about how great he'd do over the lifetime of the contract.
I mean, you didn't have a problem giving CC a hard time even before he played one game for this team. Turned out to be right though, but in A-Gon's case? Not so much.

Nomar
09-13-2012, 12:19 AM
^

But Agon will still be putting up $20M+ seasons when Pedey is all done, or all banged up on the DL.

In general:

I'm usually on the side of revisionists, but in this case find myself made vaguely sick by the self congratulatory bleatings I am reading here. It is far from time to be passing final judgements on these players in general or Adrian Gonzalez in particular.

Agreed, but i would think it will be easier to find another AGon than it will a Pedroia (and by that i mean there are more 1B out there who can be worth $20M than 2B)... or at least thats what it seems like to me.

And idk how Pedroia will change his swing, but he cant swing like he does now forever, thats for sure.

bagwell368
09-13-2012, 08:10 AM
You: "But Agon will still be putting up $20M+ seasons when Pedey is all done, or all banged up on the DL."

Maybe it's just me, but that statement sounds more absolute than "expressing an understanding". Well, I'd let that easily go, after all that's your typical posting-style, but I find it funny that you basically tell everyone who's making predicitions to shut it.
Frankly, you're doing that all the time.

The fact is that a 1B and 2B of those ages and baseball/injury backgrounds - Agon is going to outlast Pedey by the odds - and likely by no small measure.


Adrian Gonzalez has always been a lil bit overrated, mostly because of the label "Petco Park" and his elite year 2009.

Oh, this is a fact is it? Go check the rWAR of Adrian Gonzalez and tell me how many other 1B are better over the past 4 years.


So I'd reckon my opinion is somewhat legitimate or at least as fair as yours. Otherwise we couldn't be judging any player before they call it quits.
Maybe you are not so quick jumping to conclusions this time, because you were the one telling us about how great he'd do over the lifetime of the contract.
I mean, you didn't have a problem giving CC a hard time even before he played one game for this team. Turned out to be right though, but in A-Gon's case? Not so much.

I'm on the long view. Some people have a need to denigrate what has been let go.

I was dead right about CC, and I'm dead right about Gonzalez in the time he played here he out earned his salary 2 to 1. Fact.

JPBoston
09-14-2012, 04:54 PM
Just visited the LA Dodgers forum (I basically never go to a non NE team forum) and it was amusing skimming their rants. The basic gist was "This team has no heart", "AGon swings at garbage", etc etc.

Beckett grounding out to right was the perfect little cherry on top of his last few years in Boston...

Anyway, back on topic... I'm somewhere between Bags and the people arguing with him. I did NOT want to trade Gonzo, and get a sick feeling in my gut when I think about how we're going to replace him. But, on the other hand, I'm not buying into the exact salary earning projections either. I'm not sure the stats can truly render the way he played here. Seemingly always hitting when it didn't matter... either in blow-out games or when the team itself was down the toilet.

That said, I side more with Bags here... trying to replace AGon will not be fun. He was far from perfect, and I was sick of his nonsense... but his (comparatively) reasonable contract and status as a legit 3/4 hitter will be missed.

Nomar
09-14-2012, 06:20 PM
Just visited the LA Dodgers forum (I basically never go to a non NE team forum) and it was amusing skimming their rants. The basic gist was "This team has no heart", "AGon swings at garbage", etc etc.

Beckett grounding out to right was the perfect little cherry on top of his last few years in Boston...

Anyway, back on topic... I'm somewhere between Bags and the people arguing with him. I did NOT want to trade Gonzo, and get a sick feeling in my gut when I think about how we're going to replace him. But, on the other hand, I'm not buying into the exact salary earning projections either. I'm not sure the stats can truly render the way he played here. Seemingly always hitting when it didn't matter... either in blow-out games or when the team itself was down the toilet.

That said, I side more with Bags here... trying to replace AGon will not be fun. He was far from perfect, and I was sick of his nonsense... but his (comparatively) reasonable contract and status as a legit 3/4 hitter will be missed.

Most of his earnings came last year. While he probably wasnt clutch in September, his numbers with RISP are incredible and he wasnt bad in the clutch last year at all IMO. But the value estimator... i dont know how it works, but fangraphs is a pretty reliable site of of the time.

SirHizz
09-14-2012, 08:11 PM
That's what I was stating. He "earned" around 30m in 2011. This year? 13m! That's a huge difference.
You would only count the 2 years together if it fits your argument and if you want to hide the fact that his 2012 season is pretty crappy for his standards. I'd rather show the pretty immense gap between 2011 and 2012. That's more telling in my opinion.

bagwell368
09-14-2012, 10:16 PM
That's what I was stating. He "earned" around 30m in 2011. This year? 13m! That's a huge difference.
You would only count the 2 years together if it fits your argument and if you want to hide the fact that his 2012 season is pretty crappy for his standards. I'd rather show the pretty immense gap between 2011 and 2012. That's more telling in my opinion.

I quoted the numbers a few days ago:


Adrian Gonzalez was paid $21M dollars by the Red Sox in his 1.77 seasons here, and according to Fan Graphs produced $42M in output.

His first year at less cost and more output was clearly better then this year. But somehow you claim I am manipulating the numbers. The man did not play here just in 2012, so why is that the way he must be viewed?

It should also be pointed out that professional baseball evaluators thought it was wise to absorb the massive contract of CC, and remaining contract of Beckett in order to get hold of Gonzalez.

Theo Epstein also attempted to get Gonzalez for what? Four years?

It should also be pointed out that in the course of 7 years (Gonzalez's expected career here in Boston) that players - all players - have variations in statistics. Go look up Yaz in 1967, then in 1966. Or Rice and Lynn in 1979 and then 1980. Sorry that your expectations of perfection were not met, but that's on you, not Gonzalez.

You want to to present numbers focused just on this year for your your own purposes, go for it, I have zero responsibility to present the numbers in some way you find agreeable to your arguments. Maybe you ought to learn how to do them yourself instead of waiting around for others to do the job and then critiquing them because they don't suit you.

BostonSports96
09-15-2012, 10:25 PM
That's a great cop out for a singles hitter to make, blaming the ballpark...smh.

bagwell368
09-16-2012, 07:20 AM
That's a great cop out for a singles hitter to make, blaming the ballpark...

Really, wow? Per year since 2008 xBH rank in MLB

2008 - 52nd
2009 - 45th
2010 - 49th
2011 - 23rd
2012 - 29th

Doesn't look like a singles hitter to me, even better in Boston than SD.

Can take a walk, superb GG level fielder, high BA (especially if you account for SD).

His big weakness on the field is base running.

His big "failing" with fans was that they expected 40 HR's a year, which Gonzalez was not going to deliver. In his best year he'd be more a 36 HR and 52 2B and 2 3B guy - you know 90 xBH...
And he wasn't up for the Boston media.

For those three things we just have one lame attempt to denigrate after another. You should all bless the man, he was our ticket to getting away from CC and Beckett. On top of that he delivered double his cost on the field while he was here.

Ungrateful and short sighted.

BostonSports96
09-16-2012, 03:25 PM
Really, wow? Per year since 2008 xBH rank in MLB

2008 - 52nd
2009 - 45th
2010 - 49th
2011 - 23rd
2012 - 29th

Doesn't look like a singles hitter to me, even better in Boston than SD.

Can take a walk, superb GG level fielder, high BA (especially if you account for SD).

His big weakness on the field is base running.

His big "failing" with fans was that they expected 40 HR's a year, which Gonzalez was not going to deliver. In his best year he'd be more a 36 HR and 52 2B and 2 3B guy - you know 90 xBH...
And he wasn't up for the Boston media.

For those three things we just have one lame attempt to denigrate after another. You should all bless the man, he was our ticket to getting away from CC and Beckett. On top of that he delivered double his cost on the field while he was here.

Ungrateful and short sighted.

Alright, a singles and doubles hitter.

2007- 30 HRs
2008- 36 HRs
2009- 40 HRs
2010- 31 HRs
(^all in PetCo Park, the worst hitters ballpark in America)

2011- 27 HRs
2012- 15 HRs
(^all in Fenway Park, the best hitters ballpark in America)

Theo brought him here to hit .300+ AND to belt 40 HRs a year, and he didn't do it.

He also pouted about playing night games and now the ballpark? Sorry, not having it.

Crucis
09-16-2012, 03:39 PM
Alright, a singles and doubles hitter.

2007- 30 HRs
2008- 36 HRs
2009- 40 HRs
2010- 31 HRs
(^all in PetCo Park, the worst hitters ballpark in America)

Oh really? All of those HR's were really hit at home? Seriously? :rolleyes:

bagwell368
09-16-2012, 05:56 PM
Alright, a singles and doubles hitter.

2007- 30 HRs
2008- 36 HRs
2009- 40 HRs
2010- 31 HRs
(^all in PetCo Park, the worst hitters ballpark in America)

2011- 27 HRs
2012- 15 HRs
(^all in Fenway Park, the best hitters ballpark in America)

Theo brought him here to hit .300+ AND to belt 40 HRs a year, and he didn't do it.

He also pouted about playing night games and now the ballpark? Sorry, not having it.

No. Bill James and I could tell you Gonzalez would not regularly get to 40 HR in Fenway which is not the best hitters park in America, and is below average for HR's. You might want to think about doing some research before you make false assertions.

I see you failed to mention that Gonzalez put himself up to play RF to aid in Youk coming back.

Not having it? That's rich. Make a case, haven't seen one yet.....

SirHizz
09-16-2012, 07:57 PM
No. Bill James and I could tell you Gonzalez would not regularly get to 40 HR in Fenway which is not the best hitters park in America, and is below average for HR's. You might want to think about doing some research before you make false assertions.


Puuuuhleeeease:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=564951

If it was so obvious to see that A-Gon wouldn't hit 40 in Fenway, why did you predict him to hit 39 (which isn't that much of a difference). It's pretty typical from you to say that now, you remind me of Captain Hindsight from South Park.
If Adrian smashed HR's all over the place, you would have told us how obvious it was now that he's out of the graveyard parks in the NL west and in the hitting-friendly AL east parks.
I have no issues with someone making false predicitions, it happens to me all the time, but stop acting as you know everything.

bagwell368
09-16-2012, 08:44 PM
Puuuuhleeeease:

Cute, are you avoiding providing a bona fide answer to #76?


It's pretty typical from you to say that now, you remind me of Captain Hindsight from South Park.

Maybe you should do more research on what I wrote in the past - or just not cherry pick it. Of course this could all be to avoid answering post #76, couldn't it.


I have no issues with someone making false predicitions, it happens to me all the time, but stop acting as you know everything.

My predictions are not "false" they are based on thinking about what I've seen and studied. They might not come true.

I wrote on 7/11/11: Once I started looking at Gonzalez's hit charts in 2009, it became clear to me that the Petco adjustments for AG were understating the damage that park did for him, and that he would be a 2B machine Fenway, although his HR's might be somewhat lower in Boston. Also with the line-up and small foul territory and previous outs going for 1B and 2B that his BA would go up. I called .315.

A bit earlier I called for Agon to be in the 35-42 HR range, with a mean of 38, and maybe a year or two at 28-34. That was before his 2011 ST was lost due to his shoulder.

BostonSports96
09-16-2012, 09:42 PM
Alright everyone, admit it, Bags is smarter than you. We can't ever come back against him.

Cut the analytical crap. Gonzo has enough power (especially opposite-field power) to hit 40 HRs consistently at Fenway, he just succumbed under the pressure. That or he 'lost' his power.

The Monster is short enough for him to have hit half of his homers over it every season.

And sure he played RF to help Youk, but no player should be blaming ballparks or complaining about schedules.

SirHizz
09-16-2012, 10:31 PM
Cute, are you avoiding providing a bona fide answer to #76?

Nope, not dodging any postings. But I think I made my point pretty clear. There are different way to use statistics, your way (combining the whole 2 years) was to show that Adrian's time in Boston was successful. Mine was to show the drastic decline over those 2 years. Just a different viewpoint.
You came up with guys like Yaz, Lynn and Rice. Of course, Adrian could bounce back, but more often than not it just doesn't happen. And I wouldn't bank on it, that's why I originally said that we might have cashed in at the right time. Because if he doesn't and repeats another 2012 season next year, he will be having a negative trade value.



Maybe you should do more research on what I wrote in the past - or just not cherry pick it. Of course this could all be to avoid answering post #76, couldn't it.

Cherry picking? It was your prediction without further explanation. Am I supposed to go thru every other thread to see what else you have written about Adrian Gonzalez?
You said you (and Bill James) could say other guys that Adrian wouldn't be hitting 40 homeruns, but when? After the 2011 campaign? Well, that's not exactly rocket science. Before the 2011 season? That would be something, but as I found out, you didn't.



My predictions are not "false" they are based on thinking about what I've seen and studied. They might not come true.


That statement is rather funny. In my opinion, "false" and "might not come true" is the same, it just sounds different. But I get it, you have a decent baseball-sense and you know how to work with statistics, all I am saying is that even you are sometimes wrong and there is no need to spin it any other way, just like you do...basically every time.
By the way, what's your opinion on Ellsbury? ;)



I wrote on 7/11/11: Once I started looking at Gonzalez's hit charts in 2009, it became clear to me that the Petco adjustments for AG were understating the damage that park did for him, and that he would be a 2B machine Fenway, although his HR's might be somewhat lower in Boston. Also with the line-up and small foul territory and previous outs going for 1B and 2B that his BA would go up. I called .315.


Well, congrats on making adjustments. You obviously learned after the 2011 season that A-Gon wouldn't be a perennial 40 HR guy. Bust I guess everyone of us came to that conclusion, even without looking at "hit charts"



A bit earlier I called for Agon to be in the 35-42 HR range, with a mean of 38, and maybe a year or two at 28-34. That was before his 2011 ST was lost due to his shoulder.



Wow, a range between 28 and 42 Bombs, what a bold projection that is. And even that was way off as we are witnessing this year.

By the way: What trade did you call? Gonzalez for Kelly, Rizzo and fillers? I don't mean to be rude, but almost every user either agreed with your prediciton or came up with it before you did. Wasn't as tough to predict our #1 prospect and our best hitting prospect to go. Weren't you the one tossing WMB as a filler in every trade-proposal fr A-Gon? Would have worked out just great for us.

bagwell368
09-17-2012, 07:18 AM
Cut the analytical crap. Gonzo has enough power (especially opposite-field power) to hit 40 HRs consistently at Fenway, he just succumbed under the pressure. That or he 'lost' his power.

Cut the analytical crap? Why, so I can be another run of the mill Boston sports fan with 20x the opinions then knowledge? The wall is 37' high, his hitting charts from 2008-2010 show that, he'd make less outs in Fenway, more doubles, and less HR's.

BTW since he was here for less than 2 of the 7 years he was supposed to be here and that I made projections for how he'd do during those 7 years how do you know what he was going to do in terms of HR's? In terms of 1B's, 2B's, TB's, xBH, defense he did just fine.


The Monster is short enough for him to have hit half of his homers over it every season.

You are stating an opinion not grounded in fact. There is proof against what you say, it was posted on this board - by a poster other than me.

bagwell368
09-17-2012, 07:21 AM
By the way: What trade did you call? Gonzalez for Kelly, Rizzo and fillers? I don't mean to be rude, but almost every user either agreed with your prediciton or came up with it before you did. Wasn't as tough to predict our #1 prospect and our best hitting prospect to go. Weren't you the one tossing WMB as a filler in every trade-proposal fr A-Gon? Would have worked out just great for us.

I called the 3 exact primary pieces we dealt for him, missing the 4th player (the least important piece). Nobody else was close - during the period of the SIM's. Look it up.

WMB hasn't proven to be a regular yet. He's a below average defender. Doesn't take walks. He has good power. We'll see.

BostonSports96
09-17-2012, 09:51 AM
Cut the analytical crap? Why, so I can be another run of the mill Boston sports fan with 20x the opinions then knowledge? The wall is 37' high, his hitting charts from 2008-2010 show that, he'd make less outs in Fenway, more doubles, and less HR's.

BTW since he was here for less than 2 of the 7 years he was supposed to be here and that I made projections for how he'd do during those 7 years how do you know what he was going to do in terms of HR's? In terms of 1B's, 2B's, TB's, xBH, defense he did just fine.



You are stating an opinion not grounded in fact. There is proof against what you say, it was posted on this board - by a poster other than me.

You know bags, sometimes in sports you can base things off of logic, not just statistics.

In A-Gon's spray charts from 2008-2010, half his games were played in PetCo and he was facing NL pitching, so you can't base all your expectations on those stats.

And Fenway is a hitters ballpark, everyone pads their stats playing there. And the Monster is high, but it's also extremely short from the plate. There was no reason A-Gon couldn't hit 40 HRs in Fenway, which he was on pace for until the All-Star break of 2011.

For whatever reason he 'lost' his power stroke, but that was his job to fix.

bagwell368
09-17-2012, 10:58 AM
You know bags, sometimes in sports you can base things off of logic, not just statistics.

Wow.... amazing.


In A-Gon's spray charts from 2008-2010, half his games were played in PetCo and he was facing NL pitching, so you can't base all your expectations on those stats.

Obviously not. You have to superimpose Fenway over his charts. What you get from that is a road map to what he is likely to do in the next say 3-5 years. I also predicted lesser stats for him in 2011 before the season started to account for the league change and shoulder. It's a lot better method wise then some dork like Felger telling people he'll hit 45 HR's every year. Of course other factors can intrude as well. That's why they play the games, no?


And Fenway is a hitters ballpark, everyone pads their stats playing there. And the Monster is high, but it's also extremely short from the plate. There was no reason A-Gon couldn't hit 40 HRs in Fenway, which he was on pace for until the All-Star break of 2011.

For whatever reason he 'lost' his power stroke, but that was his job to fix.

Gonzalez being a LHH of a certain type has his most power to LCF and RCF, which is a good deal further from the plate than the foul line meeting the wall which he does not hit too very much at all. RCF is one of the most difficult RCF's in all of baseball to hit the ball out in - not all due to the distance, but the fact that ball carries poorly there - even worse after the 700 Club went up some years ago.

Fenway is the top 2B's park in all of baseball, and is high for BA as well since there is the least amount of foul territory in all of baseball. But it's not a good HR park, and its not the best hitters park as was said yesterday.

The 2012 Red Sox is chock full of guys that should have done better.

Lester
Beckett
Youk
Crawford
Ellsbury
and more

Agon obviously didn't meet your expectations, but he was doing a better job of earning his salary then others.

The desire to have Agon baited the Dodgers into the unthinkable move of taking CC and Beckett's deal and some spare change.

For what he did here and what he helped flush away in his leaving - I can easily forgive him his poor Boston media manners, and an off year this year. Why others have to keep pounding away?

BostonSports96
09-17-2012, 11:15 AM
OMG, you called me a girl...I'm so offended.

The Yankees and Rangers come here every year and rake by hitting tons of HRs. It's an easy HR park.

Gonzo did his part in terms of 2Bs and BA, but he SHOULD HAVE hit more home runs. Fenway Park may not be THE BEST but it is top 5 best hitters ballpark.

April through June 2011, Gonzo was constantly hitting HRs over the Monster, then the All-Star Break hit. Ever since he's been average in terms of power. This season he was a singles hitter who had a high BA with RISP.

And according to your oh-so-great projections, A-Gon should have hit anywhere between 28-42 HRs (by the way, there's a huge range here, not exactly a great projection) a year at Fenway, and he failed to hit that in both years he was here.

But instead of straying towards your projections, as you've been doing this whole time, the point is that any player who blames a ballpark for lack of power is just finding a cop-out.

bagwell368
09-17-2012, 11:29 AM
The Yankees and Rangers come here every year and rake by hitting tons of HRs. It's an easy HR park.

You actually think this is a fact?

Here is a fact: from 2008-2011 inclusive 91 HR's were hit in Fenway compared to 100 on average around all the other ML parks.

As for the rest of your post? Agon did not play here for 7 years as he was expected to, so it's impossible to know what he would have done. My HR projections were lower than most others on the board during that time frame. Monday morning QB'ing is always easier, isn't it?

Haven't seen you around the Iglesias thread lately BTW.

Nomar
09-17-2012, 11:35 AM
Fenway is the 3rd in park factor, but its number of doubles is what makes it easy to score here.

And that new Yankee stadium's right field is a joke, Gonzalez could hit 40 there.

SirHizz
09-17-2012, 07:12 PM
As for the rest of your post? Agon did not play here for 7 years as he was expected to, so it's impossible to know what he would have done. My HR projections were lower than most others on the board during that time frame. Monday morning QB'ing is always easier, isn't it?

Haven't seen you around the Iglesias thread lately BTW.

So according to this, CC didn't fail in Boston as he was only playing 2 years in here (even less when you factor in his injury) and we may never know what would have happend over the next 5, right?

And another thing: In post #78, you mention Adrian's XBH as to prove that he's not a singles hitter, but you fail to mention that Fenway is one of the easiest parks to hit doubles in, yet you're the first to scream out how tough it is for Homeruns.

Well, no matter how tough Fenway park is (in terms of homeruns), it's still a bandbox compared to Petco Park. And the funny thing is, Adrian hit more homeruns when he was playing in San Diego in each year but one (his first in 2006).

By the way: Your HR-predicitons were lower? Wow, a range of 28-42 HRs is such a sharp projection. I guess next year's predicition will be in the 16-42 HR range.

bagwell368
09-17-2012, 08:19 PM
So according to this, CC didn't fail in Boston as he was only playing 2 years in here (even less when you factor in his injury) and we may never know what would have happend over the next 5, right?

Nice try. The difference is that CC had a rather long history playing in Fenway. He hit poorly. He once told his local TB papers the season before he signed here that he didn't like playing in Boston. Agon had no such prior history.


And another thing: In post #78, you mention Adrian's XBH as to prove that he's not a singles hitter, but you fail to mention that Fenway is one of the easiest parks to hit doubles in, yet you're the first to scream out how tough it is for Homeruns.

In this thread as well as lots of other places I've ID'd Fenway as the #1 doubles park in the Majors. One can't very well bring up every single face in every single post can one? Can you?


Well, no matter how tough Fenway park is (in terms of homeruns), it's still a bandbox compared to Petco Park. And the funny thing is, Adrian hit more homeruns when he was playing in San Diego in each year but one (his first in 2006).

Agon hurt his shoulder which affected his HR output back to 2010, and he hasn't hit them at the same rate since.

Petco is a very difficult HR park, worse then Fenway, but not as you tried to portray it earlier in the thread - calling Fenway the best hitters park - or whatever incorrect label you foisted on the poor readers of this thread.

Gonzalez for SD home vs road per year:

H: 09 10 14 12 11 = 56
R: 07 20 22 28 20 = 97

Red Sox:

H: 10 09 = 19
R: 27 07 = 34

Neither Petco or Fenway appear to have done Gonzalez any favors.


By the way: Your HR-predicitons were lower? Wow, a range of 28-42 HRs is such a sharp projection. I guess next year's predicition will be in the 16-42 HR range.

Again you have it wrong. I called for 36-42 in 5 of his years here, and as low as 28 in the other two years. And yes, that's a good deal less then the 45, 40, 50 type predictions that were made here in the same time frame.

Where are your predictions on the topic? Oh too bad... before your time. Well what I do recall is that you came here and started backing Iglesias rather strongly - how's that working out for you? :facepalm:

SirHizz
09-17-2012, 08:53 PM
Nice try. The difference is that CC had a rather long history playing in Fenway. He hit poorly. He once told his local TB papers the season before he signed here that he didn't like playing in Boston. Agon had no such prior history.

Just because someone doesn't have "such a prior history", doesn't make the argument more right or wrong, it just stays the same, because you can't just compare what he was doing when he were with the Rays and then with the Red Sox. First off, it's a different feeling. With one jersey, he's on the road team and gets bood and with the other one he gets cheered for. Not to mention the different pitching staffs.
And who says he couldn't have been just somewhat average in Fenway and raking on the road?



In this thread as well as lots of other places I've ID'd Fenway as the #1 doubles park in the Majors. One can't very well bring up every single face in every single post can one? Can you?

Well, you tried to prove that he's not a singles hitter and ranked his XBHs. And with his sorry HR-total (15 or 16), the Doubles must be the reason he's ranked in the lower 20's of Baseball.



Agon hurt his shoulder which affected his HR output back to 2010, and he hasn't hit them at the same rate since.


His damaged shoulder is one of the bigges reasons why I think he'll never get back to his old self. I've told you that 100 times already. In my opinion, that's a valid point to question his power-ability from here on out.



Petco is a very difficult HR park, worse then Fenway, but not as you tried to portray it earlier in the thread - calling Fenway the best hitters park - or whatever incorrect label you foisted on the poor readers of this thread.


When did I do that? Please show me the posting that implied that to you. I know that Fenway is a tough parks in terms of hitting Homeruns, but you're acting as if it's completely impossible. Just because it's tough doesn't mean it's a legit excuse. A-Gon was brought n here to be a HR-hitter, not a 2B-slapper. For that task, we have other players in the line-up.



Gonzalez for SD home vs road per year:

H: 09 10 14 12 11 = 56
R: 07 20 22 28 20 = 97

Red Sox:

H: 10 09 = 19
R: 17 (typo?) 07 = 34

Neither Petco or Fenway appear to have done Gonzalez any favors.


What's your argument right there? I get his low HR-totals in Petco and Fenway, but what I can see are his great HR-totals on the road, in 2009, he hit more Homeruns on the road (in half the year) than last year combined. Remember, those came in Dodger stadium and AT&T park. How does that not support my argument?
17 HR's on the road in the AL east is really not that special, considering the parks in New York, Baltimore and Toronto.



Again you have it wrong. I called for 36-42 in 5 of his years here, and as low as 28 in the other two years. And yes, that's a good deal less then the 45, 40, 50 type predictions that were made here in the same time frame.


Ok, I got it, even though you were way off the mark, you were still closer than us scrubs in here. What a beast you are...



Where are your predictions on the topic? Oh too bad... before your time. Well what I do recall is that you came here and started backing Iglesias rather strongly - how's that working out for you? :facepalm:


My predictions on the topic? I thought A-Gon would hit HR's beyond the 40 HR mark. In hindsight, that was a dumb projection. I completely downplayed his shoulder worries. But well, that happens. I am not a huge stats guy (love em, but don't look them up all the time). I know you do way more research in that regard, but you obviously still fail to see my point.

I am still behind Iglesias, but I felt he was mishandled. Shouldn't have started at AAA right off the bat.

Nomar
09-17-2012, 09:00 PM
I am still behind Iglesias, but I felt he was mishandled. Shouldn't have started at AAA right off the bat.

Hes just not good at hitting and never has been. Everyone hoped his bat would come but it hasnt and wont anytime soon.

bagwell368
09-17-2012, 10:23 PM
Just because someone doesn't have "such a prior history", doesn't make the argument more right or wrong

And your assertion doesn't change the prior history of CC in Fenway - which was the basis at the time of my stance against signing him - before he even was signed, and more fierce after he was signed. Yeah, I had that one right too. Am I going to get labeled for copping to that too? Go for it.


First off, it's a different feeling. With one jersey, he's on the road team and gets bood and with the other one he gets cheered for. Not to mention the different pitching staffs.

His slash numbers in Fenway in 2011 was almost an exact duplicate of what he did here as a Ray in all those years combined - or did that fact also escape you?


And who says he couldn't have been just somewhat average in Fenway and raking on the road?

Half his games are in Fenway as a Red Sox. For a $20.7M AAV player he had better play superbly in Fenway.


Well, you tried to prove that he's not a singles hitter and ranked his XBHs. And with his sorry HR-total (15 or 16), the Doubles must be the reason he's ranked in the lower 20's of Baseball.

Ranked in the lower 20's of what? xBH this year? 2009-2011?


His damaged shoulder is one of the bigges reasons why I think he'll never get back to his old self. I've told you that 100 times already. In my opinion, that's a valid point to question his power-ability from here on out.

100 times?


When did I do that? Please show me the posting that implied that to you. I know that Fenway is a tough parks in terms of hitting Homeruns, but you're acting as if it's completely impossible. Just because it's tough doesn't mean it's a legit excuse. A-Gon was brought n here to be a HR-hitter, not a 2B-slapper. For that task, we have other players in the line-up.

There is another poster in this thread generally on your side, perhaps I mistook you for him, if so, I'm sorry.

Adrian Gonzalez was not brought here to be just a HR hitter. He's a complete player in the 2009-2011 time frame:

hitting for BA
hitting for power
fielding
however - lacks foot speed (quite seriously)

I can't imagine why anyone would see this player as having only one purpose. His 2011 season as a hitter for the Red Sox ranks among the top 25 seasons over the past 50 years in a Red Sox uniform. It's probably a bit higher, but I don't have time to look it up. How many HR's did he hit? So then, HR's isn't everything is it?


What's your argument right there? I get his low HR-totals in Petco and Fenway, but what I can see are his great HR-totals on the road, in 2009, he hit more Homeruns on the road (in half the year) than last year combined. Remember, those came in Dodger stadium and AT&T park. How does that not support my argument?

The claim was made by someone in this thread that Fenway was a great hitters park and that Petco was a terrible hitters park. Both of those simple claims need to be teased out to see what is what. Petco sucks for HR's, Fenway isn't that much better. In the same Division as AT&T and LAD are Arizona and Coors two of the best HR parks in baseball. So?

The AL East is home to more cozy parks - some good HR parks like NYY and Camden, others like Fenway good hitters parks that supress HR's. The Division arguments for HR's is stronger than that the Petco vs. Fenway one. My predictions in part were made on those improved Division parks.


17 HR's on the road in the AL east is really not that special, considering the parks in New York, Baltimore and Toronto.

New league, missing ST, bad shoulder... and Toronto is not a great HR park by any means, nor is TB (the worst doubles park in baseball too).


Ok, I got it, even though you were way off the mark, you were still closer than us scrubs in here. What a beast you are...

It's what I said. That's what you've spent so much of your time doing in this thread - sifting what I said. So if I write what I said, I get broadsided with the puerile "What a beast you are...", and if I walk away, you claim victory by default? Screw that. It doesn't seem anyone is paying attention anymore...but go ahead and keep trying to make points for the empty room.


My predictions on the topic? I thought A-Gon would hit HR's beyond the 40 HR mark. In hindsight, that was a dumb projection. I completely downplayed his shoulder worries. But well, that happens. I am not a huge stats guy (love em, but don't look them up all the time). I know you do way more research in that regard, but you obviously still fail to see my point.

Your point is based on Gonzalez being a disappointment at hitting HR's in his 1.77 seasons here. I find that to be a narrow and limited argument - as I have maintained in this thread - oops - I'm talking about words that I said at a prior time... here comes the attack...


I am still behind Iglesias, but I felt he was mishandled. Shouldn't have started at AAA right off the bat.

You mean this year? He was good in AA in 2011. He had his hot month in August 2012 was it? So no Majors until '13? It's not liable to help him - and yeah when he wins the triple crown you can quote me.

Crucis
09-18-2012, 12:35 AM
...

Pittz
09-18-2012, 04:26 AM
Bags projections and analysis after the AGon trade were easily the most insightful, accurate posts on this site. People were calling for 50 home runs left and right. I expected him to be a complete hitter, not just a home run hitter, because of his posts, and AGon certainly fit the mold described.

But regardless of who's right and who's wrong, it's pretty disgusting to bash AGon. He was a legitimate MVP candidate last year, was one of four real candidates for best first baseman in baseball (Votto, Cabrera, and Pujols being the others), and helped lead our league-leading offense. When the team was collapsing down the stretch, he hit .318/.455/.523 in September. That's a .977 OPS.

But, he has one bad season, in a year when almost everything went wrong and players underperformed significantly worse than AGon, and he's getting trashed? He was fantastic in Boston and helped us get rid of the worst signing in baseball history. We should all be grateful.

Whatever ailed him this season, whether it's his shoulder or something else, I hope he can bounce back in 2013.

AI
09-18-2012, 11:47 AM
Mets open to dealing Ike Davis, I hope we try and land him.

Nomar
09-18-2012, 12:34 PM
Mets open to dealing Ike Davis, I hope we try and land him.

Yeah i thought i heard them say that around the deadline. I would LOVE to land Davis. His Road splits are crazy and moving to Fenway should help him even as a lefty hitter. At 25, he could be our long term 1B solution.

AI
09-18-2012, 01:39 PM
Wouldn't be a free agent until 2017.

Nomar
09-18-2012, 02:06 PM
Wouldn't be a free agent until 2017.

His price is relatively low too. Hed be almost as valuable as Upton for a quarter of the price. The Mets could use Aceves, but need bats too. De La Cruz, Aceves, and Coyle maybe would get it done. Maybe Kalish + Aceves + Shaw, but i would still do that.

BostonSports96
09-18-2012, 02:50 PM
Bags projections and analysis after the AGon trade were easily the most insightful, accurate posts on this site. People were calling for 50 home runs left and right. I expected him to be a complete hitter, not just a home run hitter, because of his posts, and AGon certainly fit the mold described.

But regardless of who's right and who's wrong, it's pretty disgusting to bash AGon. He was a legitimate MVP candidate last year, was one of four real candidates for best first baseman in baseball (Votto, Cabrera, and Pujols being the others), and helped lead our league-leading offense. When the team was collapsing down the stretch, he hit .318/.455/.523 in September. That's a .977 OPS.

But, he has one bad season, in a year when almost everything went wrong and players underperformed significantly worse than AGon, and he's getting trashed? He was fantastic in Boston and helped us get rid of the worst signing in baseball history. We should all be grateful.

Whatever ailed him this season, whether it's his shoulder or something else, I hope he can bounce back in 2013.

Gonzo was always and was expected to be a complete player, but he significantly underachieved HR wise.

Main point: Blaming the ballpark is a lame excuse.

BostonSports96
09-18-2012, 02:52 PM
Mets open to dealing Ike Davis, I hope we try and land him.

Love it.

bagwell368
09-18-2012, 03:21 PM
Main point: Blaming the ballpark is a lame excuse.

Alternate view: Taking account of as many factors as possible yields the most accurate projections - and helps avoid puerile reactions to inflated expectations.

BostonSports96
09-18-2012, 07:20 PM
Alternate view: Taking account of as many factors as possible yields the most accurate projections - and helps avoid puerile reactions to inflated expectations.

Couldn't care any less about your views anymore.

bagwell368
09-18-2012, 08:56 PM
Couldn't care any less about your views anymore.

But you care enough to be heard on the way out the door.

:clap:

Post #110 below: I guess the concept of "irony" doesn't figure in your world....

Beantownsboss
09-18-2012, 09:16 PM
I blame the crease of his camel-toe, because we must def is a *****.

BostonSports96
09-18-2012, 11:47 PM
But you care enough to be heard on the way out the door.

:clap:

:facepalm: (my "last word" theory about you is true)

...and your probably thinking "but now your getting the last word" because your like that, just so you can get the last word again.

Crucis
09-20-2012, 02:15 AM
Alternate view: Taking account of as many factors as possible yields the most accurate projections - and helps avoid puerile reactions to inflated expectations.

:clap: