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Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 01:23 PM
50 games

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 01:23 PM
could really hurt the A's

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/19867752/bartolo-colon-fails-mlb-drug-test-in-line-for-50-game-suspension


Veteran Oakland Athletics pitcher Bartolo Colon failed an MLB drug test and is subject to a 50-game suspension, CBSSports.com has learned.

Colon resurrected his career after a controversial stem-cell treatement. He is 10-9 with a 3.43 ERA for the A's this year after going 8-10 with a 4.00 ERA with the Yankees last year.

Colon's suspension comes on the heels of the 50-game suspension for Giants outfielder Melky Cabrera.

RTL
08-22-2012, 01:25 PM
Only a game down the stretch:)

behindmydesk
08-22-2012, 01:28 PM
well at least this happened after Anderson got back

So we can bring back up Strailey But yea it's def not ideal

Yankee Clipper
08-22-2012, 01:34 PM
Another one bites the dust.

Tymathee
08-22-2012, 01:35 PM
yeah, fat guy that could never complete a season turns into Ace post 35, should've known better.

Brew Crew
08-22-2012, 01:35 PM
Where was this when he was on the Yankees?

Ares
08-22-2012, 01:37 PM
another ex-yank

Super.
08-22-2012, 01:39 PM
Not really shocking

Boston-Born
08-22-2012, 01:41 PM
West Coast bias.

Must be something in the Bay Area's water.

The X
08-22-2012, 01:41 PM
Am I too late to get in before the Yankee mentions?

raidersrock99
08-22-2012, 01:41 PM
Last week all the a"s fans talking **** about the giants forgot the a"s are te home of the steroids canseco,big mac,giambi,Tejada now colon

Station 13
08-22-2012, 01:41 PM
Where was this when he was on the Yankees?

If anything it made MLB follow his situation much closer and they were correct.

Max Power
08-22-2012, 01:44 PM
Had no idea gravy had such a high level of testosterone in it.

behindmydesk
08-22-2012, 01:48 PM
Remember MLB investigated Colon's controversial stem cell surgery for possible PED's and none was found.

thawv
08-22-2012, 01:48 PM
This is awesome! Keep em coming.......

2009mvp
08-22-2012, 01:50 PM
BartoLOL. Be nice if they caught these guys before they made significant contributions to their teams though.

Black Betsy
08-22-2012, 01:54 PM
The A's should go after Joe Saunders they really are in trouble with that young rotation.

TOJAYS
08-22-2012, 01:56 PM
lol just like melky it all makes sense now

Black Betsy
08-22-2012, 01:58 PM
Edwin is next.

behindmydesk
08-22-2012, 01:58 PM
The A's should go after Joe Saunders they really are in trouble with that young rotation.

They are?

Didn't realize Anderson, and McCarthy were that young. And the other youngings sure weren't in trouble the whole season up to this.

Well Milone started struggling at times lately

Straily probably gets you saunders numbers

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 01:58 PM
Had no idea gravy had such a high level of testosterone in it.

haha


and a lot of good comments in here thus far.

ex-yankee
current A
across the bay of the Giants

all kind of curious.

But at least the A's have Anderson back, so it should be a wash for them.

behindmydesk
08-22-2012, 01:59 PM
And griffin is due back soon as well.

aman_13
08-22-2012, 02:07 PM
Edwin is next.

Lol its a joke fans think this way. Anyone who works hard in the off-season, fixes his mechanics and finally figures it out will be a suspect for steroids.

Rush
08-22-2012, 02:10 PM
Tested positive for testosterone.


Former Cy Young Award winner Bartolo Colon of the Oakland Athletics was suspended for 50 games Wednesday after testing positive for testosterone.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8292935/rhp-bartolo-colon-oakland-athletics-suspended-50-games-violating-mlb-drug-policy

Cromedome
08-22-2012, 02:11 PM
Another fool!

NYMetros
08-22-2012, 02:20 PM
Probably the least surprising thing I've heard all day.

Cheezombie
08-22-2012, 02:26 PM
*creates fake website about how cheeseburgers caused a failed drug test*

Cheezombie
08-22-2012, 02:28 PM
could really hurt the A's

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/19867752/bartolo-colon-fails-mlb-drug-test-in-line-for-50-game-suspension

The A's have good depth at SP

McCarthy Anderson Parker Milone Straily Griffin Blackley

BKLYNpigeon
08-22-2012, 02:36 PM
MLB and the Players Union are a Joke. they do they have rules they they can be broken?

They need harsher penalties. 1 year ban for first offense and lifetime ban for the second.

Smc1174
08-22-2012, 02:36 PM
hahaha what a moron

RaiderLakersA's
08-22-2012, 02:36 PM
Damn it, Colon! :mad:

fingerbang
08-22-2012, 02:45 PM
OMFG....he should be electrocuted, beaten, drowned, and murdered!! What a disgrace to mankind!! Selfish phony!! He should never be allowed to play in MLB again and should be deported out of here ASAP!! Guantanamo Bay seems more than appropriate!!

The difference between Bartolo and Melky is the whole... criminal fraud thing.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 02:53 PM
OMFG....he should be electrocuted, beaten, drowned, and murdered!! What a disgrace to mankind!! Selfish phony!! He should never be allowed to play in MLB again and should be deported out of here ASAP!! Guantanamo Bay seems more than appropriate!!

I think you are failing to see that what Melky did was fraud.

Unless Colon did the same thing to try to avoid his suspension, they are not on the same level.

Arch Stanton
08-22-2012, 03:00 PM
I wish the Indians were juicing. Then maybe they'd win a game before the season ends.

infernoscurse
08-22-2012, 03:10 PM
logan morrison ‏@lomomarlins

i think bartolo colon's testosterone was much, much higher in calories & saturated fats than melky's...

:d

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 03:20 PM
Actually I fully understand the implications of fraud; it really is very simple and obvious to see. You guys are still getting your panties way too caught up in a bunch over it. Fraud is basically another form of lying and most any of these clowns getting caught up in this PED mess will lie if they think it'll help out their case.

Big ****ING deal. Same ****, different day....though you're more than welcome to continue being melodramatic about it!

I don't think it's melodramatic to differentiate that what Colon did will cost him a 50 game suspension and he will likely be pitching next season (if he is healthy and willing and able) and that what Melky did might cost him his entire baseball career forever, much less the 50 games, and a post-season run this fall.

His attempt to cover up his failed test with a 'I didn't know it was wrong website' is different than what Colon did (unless he too tried to cover it up somehow to avoid his suspension, we don't know that yet).

bklynny67
08-22-2012, 03:20 PM
completely explains why Colon and Melky went to being terrible to being really good the last two years.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 03:24 PM
completely explains why Colon and Melky went to being terrible to being really good the last two years.

That's assuming that the use of PED's certainly makes an athlete better at baseball.


I can name a laundry list of guys that failed drug tests and were horrible at baseball when they failed said drug tests

I think people just conveniently remember the good players, and forget about the slew of minor leaguers and former big leaguers that were not performing.

Mike Jacobs
Jay Gibbons
Ozzie Canseco
15,000,000 relievers

DodgerB24
08-22-2012, 03:25 PM
Not surprised in the slightest.

fingerbang
08-22-2012, 03:27 PM
Actually I fully understand the implications of fraud; it really is very simple and obvious to see. You guys are still getting your panties way too caught up in a bunch over it. Fraud is basically another form of lying and most any of these clowns getting caught up in this PED mess will lie if they think it'll help out their case.

Big ****ING deal. Same ****, different day....though you're more than welcome to continue being melodramatic about it!

I asked you already but you never answered, what should Melky's punishment be?

Cheezombie
08-22-2012, 03:29 PM
That's assuming that the use of PED's certainly makes an athlete better at baseball.


I can name a laundry list of guys that failed drug tests and were horrible at baseball when they failed said drug tests

I think people just conveniently remember the good players, and forget about the slew of minor leaguers and former big leaguers that were not performing.

Mike Jacobs
Jay Gibbons
Ozzie Canseco
15,000,000 relievers

Just because they sucked at the MLB level doesn't mean it didn't enhance their performance. Also, I'd bet that on average it does make one perform better.

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 03:34 PM
I think the A's should be forced to forfeit those 10 games that they won as a direct result of him cheating. It is much easier with a pitcher to see the effect than with a hitter as was Melky's case. Those are 10 games that they won (putting them in the playoffs as of right now) as a direct result of a cheater taking the mound and using an unfair advantage. I know this will not happen, but this is what should happen to deter players from using

fingerbang
08-22-2012, 03:34 PM
Just because they sucked at the MLB level doesn't mean it didn't enhance their performance. Also, I'd bet that on average it does make one perform better.

They wouldn't take them if they didn't work.

SportsAndrew25
08-22-2012, 03:35 PM
:laugh2: :laugh2:

agureghian
08-22-2012, 03:37 PM
I think the A's should be forced to forfeit those 10 games that they won as a direct result of him cheating. It is much easier with a pitcher to see the effect than with a hitter as was Melky's case. Those are 10 games that they won (putting them in the playoffs as of right now) as a direct result of a cheater taking the mound and using an unfair advantage. I know this will not happen, but this is what should happen to deter players from using

You're and idiot and i'm not saying this because I am an A's fan.
:facepalm:

NYM-RMCF-DM
08-22-2012, 03:41 PM
yeah, fat guy that could never complete a season turns into Ace post 35, should've known better.

Um..he won the Cy Young in 05 if I'm not mistaken..

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 03:43 PM
Um..he won the Cy Young in 05 if I'm not mistaken..

And for all we know, he was cheating then.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 03:44 PM
Just because they sucked at the MLB level doesn't mean it didn't enhance their performance. Also, I'd bet that on average it does make one perform better.

My argument is that it doesn't make someone a better 'baseball' player. I'm sure it can improve your performance in a lot of ways. But baseball is such a mechanically skilled game, that being huge doesn't necessarily help you be a better baseball player. It's such a skilled game.

theproof
08-22-2012, 03:50 PM
logan morrison ‏@lomomarlins

"i think bartolo colon's testosterone was much, much higher in calories & saturated fats than melky's..."

Try again when you're actually relevant Morrison. Comments like these aren't going to make you a star and make us forget about how ****** you are.

fingerbang
08-22-2012, 03:55 PM
I don't recall that, but here's my answer: THE PUNISHMENT HE HAS ALREADY RECEIVED.

There's going to be a second punishment for attempting to illegally dupe his employer.

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 04:01 PM
You're and idiot and i'm not saying this because I am an A's fan.
:facepalm:

Yeah it probably is because you are an A's fan. If a guy throws with any substance on his hand, he gets thrown out of the game. If you use testosteron to get an unfair advantage, the team is not punished at all. Sorry I don't see how that makes me an idiot except for the fact that you are an A's fan and don't agree with what I said

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 04:05 PM
Yeah it probably is because you are an A's fan. If a guy throws with any substance on his hand, he gets thrown out of the game. If you use testosteron to get an unfair advantage, the team is not punished at all. Sorry I don't see how that makes me an idiot except for the fact that you are an A's fan and don't agree with what I said

you don't take away wins, under any circumstance in baseball.


Just like the team doesn't forfeit the game that their pitcher is ejected from for throwing with that banned substance.

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 04:12 PM
you don't take away wins, under any circumstance in baseball.


Just like the team doesn't forfeit the game that their pitcher is ejected from for throwing with that banned substance.

Because that pitcher never pitches in the game!!! It's punishment enough that he gets thrown out. This gives no incentive at all for the team to make sure these guys aren't using. Listen the A's blew hard at the beginning of the season. They were WAY out of a playoff position up until a month or two ago. So why is it not worth it to let somebody from your team take a substance that can help the team out and put them into playoff contention? I have no clue why this is not an option. If I was a team that was way out of it, I'd let my marginal players take substances if that got me an extra 10 wins, putting me back into playoff contention and all I lose when it is figured out is a marginal starter prior to substance use. Yet I'm the idiot.....

redbird89
08-22-2012, 04:16 PM
They say celebrity deaths usually come in threes. May be the same with suspensions.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 04:20 PM
Because that pitcher never pitches in the game!!! It's punishment enough that he gets thrown out. This gives no incentive at all for the team to make sure these guys aren't using. Listen the A's blew hard at the beginning of the season. They were WAY out of a playoff position up until a month or two ago. So why is it not worth it to let somebody from your team take a substance that can help the team out and put them into playoff contention? I have no clue why this is not an option. If I was a team that was way out of it, I'd let my marginal players take substances if that got me an extra 10 wins, putting me back into playoff contention and all I lose when it is figured out is a marginal starter prior to substance use. Yet I'm the idiot.....

what?

Do you even know what you are arguing at this point? When has a pitcher been ejected from a game for a foreign substance not already pitched in the game?


You can't just magically take away past games, if the A's had known he was cheating in any way, they wouldn't have had him out there, they would have had someone else to try and compete.

And we can't prove that whatever PED Colon was taking even actually improved his performance at all. It's a banned substance, but we will never know the extent of how much it affects performance.


You don't erase history just because you don't like the story. It's ridiculous to suggest you take away the wins. They happened. And we have no way of knowing when Colon was taking this illegal substance.


You are also still assuming that PED's just magically make you better, and that your entire team would be better because everyone was using some magical drug that made them hit better and pitch better, when that is very likely not the case.

NateyB24
08-22-2012, 04:26 PM
Does anyone else think the punishments should be much harsher? 50 Games really isn't that much i think you should get a full season on your first offense and then if your found to be doing it a 2nd time banned from the game.

jawjr13
08-22-2012, 04:28 PM
Yeah it probably is because you are an A's fan. If a guy throws with any substance on his hand, he gets thrown out of the game. If you use testosteron to get an unfair advantage, the team is not punished at all. Sorry I don't see how that makes me an idiot except for the fact that you are an A's fan and don't agree with what I said

Baseball is a team sport you can't say that one player won or lost the game, and it kind of sounds like your saying that you should take away wins from a team if its a pitcher but not a position player.

ciaban
08-22-2012, 04:30 PM
West Coast bias.

Must be something in the Bay Area's water.
it must be, that's why you don't fight people from the bay-area, were all boarder line super heroes,


You're and idiot and i'm not saying this because I am an A's fan.
:facepalm:
you can't deny that it plays into this, i would say if you take away the wins do you take away the losses too? because he lost 9? that's why it doesn't work

My argument is that it doesn't make someone a better 'baseball' player. I'm sure it can improve your performance in a lot of ways. But baseball is such a mechanically skilled game, that being huge doesn't necessarily help you be a better baseball player. It's such a skilled game.
tell that to the Big Unit, and the Big Hurt

logan morrison ‏@lomomarlins

"i think bartolo colon's testosterone was much, much higher in calories & saturated fats than melky's..."

Try again when you're actually relevant Morrison. Comments like these aren't going to make you a star and make us forget about how ****** you are.

hey don't hate on Logan Morrison, A's fans were making the same joke, if your going to bash on him be it for going with a really obvious joke

carnage101
08-22-2012, 04:31 PM
what?

Do you even know what you are arguing at this point? When has a pitcher been ejected from a game for a foreign substance not already pitched in the game?


You can't just magically take away past games, if the A's had known he was cheating in any way, they wouldn't have had him out there, they would have had someone else to try and compete.

And we can't prove that whatever PED Colon was taking even actually improved his performance at all. It's a banned substance, but we will never know the extent of how much it affects performance.


You don't erase history just because you don't like the story. It's ridiculous to suggest you take away the wins. They happened. And we have no way of knowing when Colon was taking this illegal substance.


You are also still assuming that PED's just magically make you better, and that your entire team would be better because everyone was using some magical drug that made them hit better and pitch better, when that is very likely not the case.
there is no proof that steroids improve hand eye coordination however its pretty unfair to have an advantage that helps build and maintain muscle. Logic would dictate an average player who works hard uses roids and dedicates him self would become an above average player.
Someone who doesn't have major league talent or the work ethic and uses steroids as a short cut to throw faster might not work out as well.

Its a case by case situation. Lets me be honest guys. More and more players try to duck the test. You ever wonder why you don't see any marjuana suspensions? because people either mask their pee or get someone else to piss for them. Hiding testosterone isn't an exact science can be done but if you get tested 100 times in a season the chances of masking it not working are greater. The law of averages eventually plays out. Theres a ton of players still on roids.

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 04:32 PM
Baseball is a team sport you can't say that one player won or lost the game, and it kind of sounds like your saying that you should take away wins from a team if its a pitcher but not a position player.

A pitcher can most certainly win a game for you. He had 11 starts where he gave up 1 run or fewer. That doesn't help the offense tremendously? He also had 4 more starts that he only gave up 2 runs. To say that 15 quality starts where the team only has to score 4 runs instead of 8 does not give the team a tremendous advantage is ridiculous. I'm not even saying take away every single game he won, but they have to do something to deter cheating

ciaban
08-22-2012, 04:32 PM
Does anyone else think the punishments should be much harsher? 50 Games really isn't that much i think you should get a full season on your first offense and then if your found to be doing it a 2nd time banned from the game.

i think everyone BUT the union thinks it should be harsher, and that's the problem, I say 1st offense 81 games second offense 162 games, and your not allowed to play in the playoffs the year you come back

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 04:37 PM
what?

Do you even know what you are arguing at this point? When has a pitcher been ejected from a game for a foreign substance not already pitched in the game?


You can't just magically take away past games, if the A's had known he was cheating in any way, they wouldn't have had him out there, they would have had someone else to try and compete.

And we can't prove that whatever PED Colon was taking even actually improved his performance at all. It's a banned substance, but we will never know the extent of how much it affects performance.


You don't erase history just because you don't like the story. It's ridiculous to suggest you take away the wins. They happened. And we have no way of knowing when Colon was taking this illegal substance.


You are also still assuming that PED's just magically make you better, and that your entire team would be better because everyone was using some magical drug that made them hit better and pitch better, when that is very likely not the case.

Well it happened in a game this year and it happened with Brendan Donnelly a few years ago when he was on the Angels so yeah it has happened. I actually have an argument. You aren't even entering into a debate, you are just saying you are right and covering your eyes and just saying my point is dumb.

How in the world does it not help police the game if teams are worried about losing wins if their players are found to be using performance enhancing substances? If I'm a manager or owner and my team can lose games if somebody fails a drug test, I am checking EVERYTHING they take and I'm testing them every week to make sure this does not happen. The teammates police each other to make sure nobody is cheating because they don't want to lose wins and risk missing out on the playoffs.

But no, let's just keep it how it is where the only person that suffers is the player and a team greatly benefits from having a cheater on their team. I can understand your point that you can't go back now, I'm saying this should be a future rule. I actually know what I'm talking about and I know people that agree with my statements.

carnage101
08-22-2012, 04:37 PM
Jeffy i love you as a poster but your argument about hand eye coordination is so flawed. Having any sort of advantage on working out building muscle and maintaing health is unfair. Theres no way around it man.

simply put steroids help you work out more often and harder. So a person not on steroids would work out a certain muscle group every other day leaving the second day to recover from stress and strain done by working out. Steroids allows you to work out the next day accomplishing more in a shorter amount of time.

so person a works out everyday and takes roids and is talent wise 9.0 out of 10
person b works out every other day because he doesn't take roids and talent wise is 9.0 out of 10.

who's going to have better numbers likely its person a. Not every time will it be person A. but like in poker pocket aces isn't a lock to win every hand either.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 04:39 PM
tell that to the Big Unit, and the Big Hurt



And Jose Altuve, Andrew Miller, David Eckstien, and a large number of other players

Height and weight don't mean too much in the big leagues.

Yankees90.
08-22-2012, 04:39 PM
:facepalm: :facepalm:



I am getting sick and tired of this. Such a great story, I loved what he did for the Yanks and what he was doing out in Oakland. For a former Ace and Cy Young to come back and pitch the way he has was, to me, a breath of fresh air. I love seeing stories like this. But now? *sighhhhhh*

I think Jeffy25 said it earlier, taking PED's does not necessarily just make you better. If you look at the amount of minor leaguers suspended for PED use over the years, it is astonishing. And for the most part, they weren't anything special. It definitely makes you stronger, helps you endure more, and increases things such as bat speed. You still have to have some sort of talent though. Example: I am in no way, shape or form trying to take shots at Bonds, but we all know the talent that guy had...after the time when he allegedly started using, you could see how god-like his numbers were.

It sucks, but you know what, I don't care who you are, or what you accomplished, if you are using PED's I can only pray they get caught and deal with the appropiate punishments.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 04:42 PM
Jeffy i love you as a poster but your argument about hand eye coordination is so flawed. Having any sort of advantage on working out building muscle and maintaing health is unfair. Theres no way around it man.

simply put steroids help you work out more often and harder. So a person not on steroids would work out a certain muscle group every other day leaving the second day to recover from stress and strain done by working out. Steroids allows you to work out the next day accomplishing more in a shorter amount of time.

so person a works out everyday and takes roids and is talent wise 9.0 out of 10
person b works out every other day because he doesn't take roids and talent wise is 9.0 out of 10.

who's going to have better numbers likely its person a. Not every time will it be person A. but like in poker pocket aces isn't a lock to win every hand either.


All of this still comes down to assuming that a player takes PEDs that that makes them automatically better at baseball, when we honestly have no idea.

There are clearly players that have been busted for steroid usage and it didn't appear to make them better players.


1. We don't know how long Bartolo was using (btw, it sounds like this has to do with his stem cell treatment, and not a standard PED)
2. We don't know the affects, they are immurseable, and there is a chance they don't actually help you be better at baseball. I could take drugs, it doesn't mean I'm going to be able to hit 50 home runs at the major league level. These are elite athletes at this very skilled game.
3. fans way over-react to all of this.


You are giving me a highly subjective and speculatory example that doesn't prove anything. And it really doesn't have anything to do with Colon.

Ares
08-22-2012, 04:43 PM
They say celebrity deaths usually come in threes. May be the same with suspensions.

Melky, Colon and Bautista. That'd be a great month

fingerbang
08-22-2012, 04:43 PM
Arguing that PEDs don't make you a better athlete is like saying global warming isn't happening. You're arguing against science.

carnage101
08-22-2012, 04:44 PM
if you took away wins you would have to take away every world series in the 2000's

glaus for angels

chuck knoblock and whomever else on the yankees dynasty clemens andy etc
boston with papi and manny
louis gonzalez with the diamondbacks.

jawjr13
08-22-2012, 04:46 PM
A pitcher can most certainly win a game for you. He had 11 starts where he gave up 1 run or fewer. That doesn't help the offense tremendously? He also had 4 more starts that he only gave up 2 runs. To say that 15 quality starts where the team only has to score 4 runs instead of 8 does not give the team a tremendous advantage is ridiculous. I'm not even saying take away every single game he won, but they have to do something to deter cheating

How many times did the defense come into play and the batters still have to hit. My point isn't that he didn't help the team, but he is not the sole reason the team won any game so there is absolutely no way you can take it away from the team.

theproof
08-22-2012, 04:46 PM
Anybody who thinks that wins should be taken away from teams really needs to stop and think about what they are saying. You're talking about discrediting every other players contributions to the game won all because of one player's bad choice. I love reading some of the ridiculous comments from people whenever a story about steroids breaks people always tend to make absolutely lol worthy comments.

carnage101
08-22-2012, 04:47 PM
All of this still comes down to assuming that a player takes PEDs that that makes them automatically better at baseball, when we honestly have no idea.

There are clearly players that have been busted for steroid usage and it didn't appear to make them better players.


1. We don't know how long Bartolo was using (btw, it sounds like this has to do with his stem cell treatment, and not a standard PED)
2. We don't know the affects, they are immurseable, and there is a chance they don't actually help you be better at baseball. I could take drugs, it doesn't mean I'm going to be able to hit 50 home runs at the major league level. These are elite athletes at this very skilled game.
3. fans way over-react to all of this.


You are giving me a highly subjective and speculatory example that doesn't prove anything. And it really doesn't have anything to do with Colon.


i'm just saying a player on steroids has a better chance to succeed short term than a player not on roids. That alone is not fair for people not on roids.

carnage101
08-22-2012, 04:49 PM
i just feel like the hand eye coordination argument effects a small % of actual steroid users. Theres no way to prove it. But lets face it colon career should have ended 4 years ago. The fact that he was still pitching effectively shows that steroids can make a below average player into an average or above average player. Fans have a reason to be upset.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 04:52 PM
Well it happened in a game this year and it happened with Brendan Donnelly a few years ago when he was on the Angels so yeah it has happened. I actually have an argument. You aren't even entering into a debate, you are just saying you are right and covering your eyes and just saying my point is dumb.
Your argument is that the A's should have 10 wins taken away from them.

I think you forgot that was your argument.

Unless you didn't say this


I think the A's should be forced to forfeit those 10 games that they won as a direct result of him cheating.


Which you did. Have you already forgotten what you have said? It's only been four posts.


You keep making up new arguments, but you are not staying on topic. So it's difficult to discuss with you if you don't even seem to know what you are debating.


Overall, it seems your argument is that the team benefits without consequence to a player using. When it in fact does hurt the team greatly. The A's would like to have known that Colon was going to be suspended, don't you think? They could have added another starter at the trade deadline to help them reach the playoffs this season. They were duped, they can't possibly appreciate it.

But what you are asking for is impossible to deliver. You want to erase wins, for something completely immeasurable.

How many wins should the Giants have to vacate for Melky? Where did you get 10 wins for Colon? The guy has started 24 games.

Let me guess, his 10 wins, right? Even though the A's are 14-10 in his starts. So what, the A's have to vacate 10 wins, even though they scored a combined 58 runs in his 10 'winning decision' games? Are we to assume that the A's are still not going to win this game
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/COL/COL201206120.shtml
without Colon?

It's ridiculous to take away wins. I hate when they do it in other sports. It's such a cop-out because the organization/league doesn't like what happened and are trying to distance themselves from it. It is ridiculous. You don't erase history because you don't like the story, and what you are asking for is completely immeasurable.

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 04:54 PM
Anybody who thinks that wins should be taken away from teams really needs to stop and think about what they are saying. You're talking about discrediting every other players contributions to the game won all because of one player's bad choice. I love reading some of the ridiculous comments from people whenever a story about steroids breaks people always tend to make absolutely lol worthy comments.

It'd make teams more careful about what their players are putting into their body though wouldn't it? The people arguing AGAINST taking wins away are the ones that have to stop and think about this. I understand the contributions other players made get discredited. But right now the team has very little incentive to make sure their players aren't juicing. Melky and Bartolo prior to PED use were average to below average players. With PED's they helped the team win a lot of games.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 04:54 PM
i just feel like the hand eye coordination argument effects a small % of actual steroid users. Theres no way to prove it. But lets face it colon career should have ended 4 years ago. The fact that he was still pitching effectively shows that steroids can make a below average player into an average or above average player. Fans have a reason to be upset.

Colon was back in the game because of his stem-cell injections, not because of steroids. In fact, I don't think he has ever taken a steroid, has he? Testerone rise doesn't mean steroid

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 04:57 PM
Melky and Bartolo prior to PED use were average to below average players. With PED's they helped the team win a lot of games.

I would love to see you prove this

Is there something I'm missing about a definitive timeline of Melky Cabrera and Bartolo Colon's steroid usage? Or are you just assuming that they began using prior to 2010 because it fits your preconceived notions that steroids can take a below average player to All Star caliber? Also, if that was the case, and Melky and Colon have been able to trick the tests for a year and a half, why did they suddenly become dumb and stop doing whatever they were doing that was fooling the tests?

theproof
08-22-2012, 04:58 PM
i just feel like the hand eye coordination argument effects a small % of actual steroid users. Theres no way to prove it. But lets face it colon career should have ended 4 years ago. The fact that he was still pitching effectively shows that steroids can make a below average player into an average or above average player. Fans have a reason to be upset.

There's also no way to prove this statement as well. I mean, Colon has always been kind of up and down his whole career. He'd be good for a couple of seasons and then he'd have one or two years of being mediocre to bad. Not to mention the fact that we don't even know the exact time that he actually started taking them.

NYYCowboys
08-22-2012, 04:59 PM
Besides Jose Bautista this was probably the most obvious case or PED use that wasn't reported...until now.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 05:02 PM
Besides Jose Bautista this was probably the most obvious case or PED use that wasn't reported...until now.

Are people somehow unaware of his stem-cell injections or something?

jawjr13
08-22-2012, 05:02 PM
Well it happened in a game this year and it happened with Brendan Donnelly a few years ago when he was on the Angels so yeah it has happened. I actually have an argument. You aren't even entering into a debate, you are just saying you are right and covering your eyes and just saying my point is dumb.

How in the world does it not help police the game if teams are worried about losing wins if their players are found to be using performance enhancing substances? If I'm a manager or owner and my team can lose games if somebody fails a drug test, I am checking EVERYTHING they take and I'm testing them every week to make sure this does not happen. The teammates police each other to make sure nobody is cheating because they don't want to lose wins and risk missing out on the playoffs.

But no, let's just keep it how it is where the only person that suffers is the player and a team greatly benefits from having a cheater on their team. I can understand your point that you can't go back now, I'm saying this should be a future rule. I actually know what I'm talking about and I know people that agree with my statements.

IF baseball ever decided to deduct wins from a team for a player testing positive for PED's (which I don't really see as the best answer), they would have to do it as a standard number and have nothing to do with a players actual performance.

theproof
08-22-2012, 05:02 PM
It'd make teams more careful about what their players are putting into their body though wouldn't it? The people arguing AGAINST taking wins away are the ones that have to stop and think about this. I understand the contributions other players made get discredited. But right now the team has very little incentive to make sure their players aren't juicing. Melky and Bartolo prior to PED use were average to below average players. With PED's they helped the team win a lot of games.

I see what your're saying but ultimately I believe it's the leagues responsibility to make sure these things don't happen and if they fail to do so I think it's ridiculous to go back in the past and change the outcome of games that have already been played in order to punish the player and team. If they did that would that mean that they would have take WS championships from teams because they had steriod abusers on them? I mean, that's only fair right?

Yankees90.
08-22-2012, 05:03 PM
Arguing that PEDs don't make you a better athlete is like saying global warming isn't happening. You're arguing against science.

It doesn't just magically make you better. You still have to have some talent to go along with the use. If you look at some players, most minor leaguers, who have been caught using, not many of them were anything too special.

It does make you stronger which, if you are a contact hitter, will cause the ball to jump off your bat as your bat speed increases also. BUT, you have to learn how to harness this ability.

But if you are someone who can't hit a lick, it is not like taking steroids is just going to give you all this talent all of a sudden...you still have to play.

Just look at Bonds numbers pre and post use....I mean, at his age those numbers were just unbelievable to say the least. But he was a great player before.


P.S. "Global Warming" is a natural process. Chances are, at some point throughout history, where you are located right now was probably covered by hundreds of feet of ice (I know that to be true where I am). Where did it all go? We as humans, are just speeding the process up. It is just one big cycle and there is nothing you can really do about it. One big "cycle". Kind of ironic in a PED thread :D

nyyfan555
08-22-2012, 05:03 PM
Remember MLB investigated Colon's controversial stem cell surgery for possible PED's and none was found.

Got all you yankee haters here. Funny how most of you ignored this post.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 05:04 PM
But lets face it colon career should have ended 4 years ago. The fact that he was still pitching effectively shows that steroids can make a below average player into an average or above average player. Fans have a reason to be upset.

Let me re-word for just a second

"But lets face it Gibbons career should have ended 4 years ago. The fact that he was still hitting effectively shows that steroids can make a below average player into an average or above average player. Fans have a reason to be upset."

See what I changed there? The name

Yankees90.
08-22-2012, 05:13 PM
Got all you yankee haters here. Funny how most of you ignored this post.

Well, I don't know about everyone else, but I did not ignore it.

The fact of the matter is, trying to argue with a Yankee hater on the subject of PED's, is like trying to take a lollipop away from a kid with Downs Syndrome. Why would you do it?

Cheezombie
08-22-2012, 05:16 PM
My argument is that it doesn't make someone a better 'baseball' player. I'm sure it can improve your performance in a lot of ways. But baseball is such a mechanically skilled game, that being huge doesn't necessarily help you be a better baseball player. It's such a skilled game.

What's the difference between improving your performance as a baseball player and making someone a better baseball player?

Cheezombie
08-22-2012, 05:17 PM
They wouldn't take them if they didn't work.

That's basically my point..

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 05:18 PM
What's the difference between improving your performance as a baseball player and making someone a better baseball player?

I shouldn't have said 'and it will make your performance improve' that was a mistake to type.

I meant to say there 'it might make you bigger, faster, or stronger, but it won't necessarily make you a better baseball player'

Which is what I have been saying everywhere else in this thread.

Just a simple mistake on typing.

Cheezombie
08-22-2012, 05:19 PM
Because that pitcher never pitches in the game!!! It's punishment enough that he gets thrown out. This gives no incentive at all for the team to make sure these guys aren't using. Listen the A's blew hard at the beginning of the season. They were WAY out of a playoff position up until a month or two ago. So why is it not worth it to let somebody from your team take a substance that can help the team out and put them into playoff contention? I have no clue why this is not an option. If I was a team that was way out of it, I'd let my marginal players take substances if that got me an extra 10 wins, putting me back into playoff contention and all I lose when it is figured out is a marginal starter prior to substance use. Yet I'm the idiot.....

Different team in March and May. The thing that really lifted this team is the emergence of offensive performers.

Cheezombie
08-22-2012, 05:23 PM
A pitcher can most certainly win a game for you. He had 11 starts where he gave up 1 run or fewer. That doesn't help the offense tremendously? He also had 4 more starts that he only gave up 2 runs. To say that 15 quality starts where the team only has to score 4 runs instead of 8 does not give the team a tremendous advantage is ridiculous. I'm not even saying take away every single game he won, but they have to do something to deter cheating

So basically teams should only go punished if a pitcher gets caught? How do you quantify this same punishment for position players? You can't. That's why this is a stupid argument.

fingerbang
08-22-2012, 05:23 PM
That's basically my point..

And I completely agree. Arguing that PEDs don't improve your ability is like arguing the sky is green.

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 05:29 PM
Your argument is that the A's should have 10 wins taken away from them.

I think you forgot that was your argument.

Unless you didn't say this




Which you did. Have you already forgotten what you have said? It's only been four posts.


You keep making up new arguments, but you are not staying on topic. So it's difficult to discuss with you if you don't even seem to know what you are debating.


Overall, it seems your argument is that the team benefits without consequence to a player using. When it in fact does hurt the team greatly. The A's would like to have known that Colon was going to be suspended, don't you think? They could have added another starter at the trade deadline to help them reach the playoffs this season. They were duped, they can't possibly appreciate it.

But what you are asking for is impossible to deliver. You want to erase wins, for something completely immeasurable.

How many wins should the Giants have to vacate for Melky? Where did you get 10 wins for Colon? The guy has started 24 games.

Let me guess, his 10 wins, right? Even though the A's are 14-10 in his starts. So what, the A's have to vacate 10 wins, even though they scored a combined 58 runs in his 10 'winning decision' games? Are we to assume that the A's are still not going to win this game
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/COL/COL201206120.shtml
without Colon?

It's ridiculous to take away wins. I hate when they do it in other sports. It's such a cop-out because the organization/league doesn't like what happened and are trying to distance themselves from it. It is ridiculous. You don't erase history because you don't like the story, and what you are asking for is completely immeasurable.

Your argument that the As did not know is just as ridiculous. Since you are trying to act like I have no clue what I am talking about, I will actually prove that you are the one that does not know what you are saying...The player and team actually know in advance before the public finds out. If you remember, Melky was asked about his positive test 2 weeks before the suspension came and he denied it.
I could keep arguing with you but it's like talking to a wall. I keep using the same points, that he gave the team an unfair advantage, that if the team feared a punishment then they would harshly police their players, that without Colon using testosterone, they may be completely out of playoff contention at this point. I did say the As should be forced to forfeit, because they should. But it won't happen so I moved on to saying they should make it a new rule. But keep living in your world where you are always right. I took your point saying and agree they should not be forced to forfeit after you made the point. At least I am being objective

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 05:30 PM
And I completely agree. Arguing that PEDs don't improve your ability is like arguing the sky is green.

If it def improves your performance as a baseball player, then why do we have far more players that have failed not had an improvement in their performance when they failed said test, then guys like Cabrera that have been better when they failed?

Jay Gibbons
Ozzie Canseco
Alex Sanchez
Jorge Piedra
Mike Jacobs
Augstin Montero
Jamal Strong
Juan Rincon
Carlos Almanzar
Matt Lawton
Mike Morse
Yusaku Iriki
Jason Grimsley
Juan Salas
Neifi Perez (twice!)
Dan Serafini
Eliezer Alsonzo
J.C. Romero
Freddy Galvis
Marlon Byrd


Each of these guys were not playing well when they failed their tests.

Know how many players were playing at peak levels when they failed their test? Less than 10%. Less than 1-0%.

But it is as obvious as the sky is blue that PED's improve your performance on a baseball field, right?

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 05:31 PM
I would love to see you prove this

Is there something I'm missing about a definitive timeline of Melky Cabrera and Bartolo Colon's steroid usage? Or are you just assuming that they began using prior to 2010 because it fits your preconceived notions that steroids can take a below average player to All Star caliber? Also, if that was the case, and Melky and Colon have been able to trick the tests for a year and a half, why did they suddenly become dumb and stop doing whatever they were doing that was fooling the tests?

It's easier for me to prove my side then you prove yours. Keep thinking u r the only one right tho man

MetsFanatic19
08-22-2012, 05:31 PM
Somebody drugged his chicken nuggets.

Cheezombie
08-22-2012, 05:31 PM
I shouldn't have said 'and it will make your performance improve' that was a mistake to type.

I meant to say there 'it might make you bigger, faster, or stronger, but it won't necessarily make you a better baseball player'

Which is what I have been saying everywhere else in this thread.

Just a simple mistake on typing.

I would still argue that on average it will improve a ballplayer's performance. Of course you still have to have talent, I don't think anyone is trying to argue otherwise.

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 05:33 PM
I see what your're saying but ultimately I believe it's the leagues responsibility to make sure these things don't happen and if they fail to do so I think it's ridiculous to go back in the past and change the outcome of games that have already been played in order to punish the player and team. If they did that would that mean that they would have take WS championships from teams because they had steriod abusers on them? I mean, that's only fair right?

See now I can respect you because you are actually looking at my side of it. I understand it is hard to go back and change outcomes, but it something has to be done and I believe this would help a lot.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 05:33 PM
Your argument that the As did not know is just as ridiculous. Since you are trying to act like I have no clue what I am talking about, I will actually prove that you are the one that does not know what you are saying...The player and team actually know in advance before the public finds out. If you remember, Melky was asked about his positive test 2 weeks before the suspension came and he denied it.
When the team and player are notified that the player might have failed a drug test, it still isn't conclusive yet. It is sent for further testing to get an actual report that actually 100% answers. I'm sure it happens plenty that a team and player are notified that the player might have failed a test and then it comes back that they did not.

fingerbang
08-22-2012, 05:33 PM
If it def improves your performance as a baseball player, then why do we have far more players that have failed not had an improvement in their performance when they failed said test, then guys like Cabrera that have been better when they failed?

Jay Gibbons
Ozzie Canseco
Alex Sanchez
Jorge Piedra
Mike Jacobs
Augstin Montero
Jamal Strong
Juan Rincon
Carlos Almanzar
Matt Lawton
Mike Morse
Yusaku Iriki
Jason Grimsley
Juan Salas
Neifi Perez (twice!)
Dan Serafini
Eliezer Alsonzo
J.C. Romero
Freddy Galvis
Marlon Byrd


Each of these guys were not playing well when they failed their tests.

Know how many players were playing at peak levels when they failed their test? Less than 10%. Less than 1-0%.

But it is as obvious as the sky is blue that PED's improve your performance on a baseball field, right?

Have you done any sort of research of some of these drugs and their effects?

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 05:37 PM
Have you done any sort of research of some of these drugs and their effects?

Sure, they make you bigger, faster, stronger, less rehab time necessary between work outs, are not as sore, etc etc etc etc.

There can be lot's of benefits.

But we are talking about testosterone, and a game where performance does not equal being the 'biggest, fastest, and strongest'

It's too much of a skill game that requires specific talents. Not being the biggest, fastest, or strongest guy on the field.

Again, the majority of the players that have failed drug tests have been mediocre players. But fans for some reason only focus on the few good players and say "See! That's why he was an all-star! See! That's why he was good" When that's complete and utter ********. That isn't why. A does not equal B.

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 05:40 PM
So basically teams should only go punished if a pitcher gets caught? How do you quantify this same punishment for position players? You can't. That's why this is a stupid argument.

People can go back and do research and watch the games again. When did the player have a HR that won the game for the team, when did the player have a hit that changed the game, etc. but after thinking about it, I like the idea one of the posters said, where you have to forfeit a certain amount of games. If it is high enough, teams won't even let their players say the word steroid in their clubhouse.

fingerbang
08-22-2012, 05:40 PM
Sure, they make you bigger, faster, stronger, less rehab time necessary between work outs, are not as sore, etc etc etc etc.

There can be lot's of benefits.

But we are talking about testosterone, and a game where performance does not equal being the 'biggest, fastest, and strongest'

It's too much of a skill game that requires specific talents. Not being the biggest, fastest, or strongest guy on the field.

Again, the majority of the players that have failed drug tests have been mediocre players. But fans for some reason only focus on the few good players and say "See! That's why he was an all-star! See! That's why he was good" When that's complete and utter ********. That isn't why. A does not equal B.

Giving an already skilled player a PED is going to make him better. The fact that mediocre players failed drug tests does not disprove that.

Again, arguing that PEDs don't improve performance is rediculous.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 05:44 PM
Giving an already skilled player a PED is going to make him better. The fact that mediocre players failed drug tests does not disprove that.

Again, arguing that PEDs don't improve performance is rediculous.

Can you prove that it does?


No. Then why are you saying it's as factual as the sky is blue?

Cheezombie
08-22-2012, 05:44 PM
People can go back and do research and watch the games again. When did the player have a HR that won the game for the team, when did the player have a hit that changed the game, etc. but after thinking about it, I like the idea one of the posters said, where you have to forfeit a certain amount of games. If it is high enough, teams won't even let their players say the word steroid in their clubhouse.

There is still no possible way to quantify it. And there's no way to quantify what said player's replacement would have done. Colon's replacement certainly wouldn't have been 10 games worse, especially for the A's, whom have like 8 players that can start.

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 05:45 PM
Giving an already skilled player a PED is going to make him better. The fact that mediocre players failed drug tests does not disprove that.

Again, arguing that PEDs don't improve performance is rediculous.

10000000% agree. Just because some guy that never belonged in the minors took steroids and became AA player does not mean it did not help them. Why would they take them if they didn't help? Answer-they wouldnt

fingerbang
08-22-2012, 05:45 PM
Can you prove that it does?


No. Then why are you saying it's as factual as the sky is blue?

It's already been proven that PEDs enhance atheletic ability. You don't think an increase in bat speed or strenth is going to make you a better player?

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 05:46 PM
There is still no possible way to quantify it. And there's no way to quantify what said player's replacement would have done. Colon's replacement certainly wouldn't have been 10 games worse, especially for the A's, whom have like 8 players that can start.

Read the second part of my statement to show what I said should be done

nyyfan555
08-22-2012, 05:51 PM
Well, I don't know about everyone else, but I did not ignore it.

The fact of the matter is, trying to argue with a Yankee hater on the subject of PED's, is like trying to take a lollipop away from a kid with Downs Syndrome. Why would you do it?

It seems like you were the only one to acknowledge it. The haters out there conveniently forget many things. One being how the Yankees amassed their wealth. Its more than just their location. Its ok, we fans have a hard time hearing the haters because we're buried under so many rings.

ciaban
08-22-2012, 05:55 PM
Sure, they make you bigger, faster, stronger, less rehab time necessary between work outs, are not as sore, etc etc etc etc.

There can be lot's of benefits.

But we are talking about testosterone, and a game where performance does not equal being the 'biggest, fastest, and strongest'

It's too much of a skill game that requires specific talents. Not being the biggest, fastest, or strongest guy on the field.

Again, the majority of the players that have failed drug tests have been mediocre players. But fans for some reason only focus on the few good players and say "See! That's why he was an all-star! See! That's why he was good" When that's complete and utter ********. That isn't why. A does not equal B.
this isn't gimnastics being bigger and stronger help in almost every sport including this one, that extra strength could turn a ground out into a hotshot that the infielder didn't have time to dive for,

There is still no possible way to quantify it. And there's no way to quantify what said player's replacement would have done. Colon's replacement certainly wouldn't have been 10 games worse, especially for the A's, whom have like 8 players that can start.
you don't have to quantify anything, take away 6 wins, that's worth about 3 full games in a teams winning% now, I'm not arguing for this, I'm just saying you don't have to go case by case, but i guess you could also subtract however many wins their WAR indicates rounding up, so 5.3 war equals 6 vacated wins to go along with the suspension, also, teams should be allowed to void contracts as well.

Cheezombie
08-22-2012, 05:57 PM
Read the second part of my statement to show what I said should be done

I did read it, but just didn't respond to that part. But here's the problem with that: where do you draw the line? Should the entire team get punished if someone failed for marijuana? Other drugs? If they do anything illegal? Why should the teams be responsible for everything a player does? Should a team get punished because someone got a DUI? These are decisions made by individuals, not teams. Individuals should be punished, not teams.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 06:01 PM
this isn't gimnastics being bigger and stronger help in almost every sport including this one, that extra strength could turn a ground out into a hotshot that the infielder didn't have time to dive for,



So Jay Gibbons, Neifi Perez, and Marlon Byrd.

All with years under their belt with passed PED tests, finally fail a test when their performance was at a career low. They failed, during their play that was horrible (the suspension comes out more than a month after they fail their test, meaning they were not suddenly taking it to improve bad performance. They were playing while their failed their test, and continued to do so).

Jay Gibbons

2005
.833 OPS - two clean, passed tests
2006
.799 OPS - two clean, passed tests
2007
.621 OPS - one failed test

But it def makes you a better baseball player?

Neifi Perez

2005
.681 OPS - two clean, passed tests
2006
.575 OPS - two clean, passed tests
2007
.486 OPS - zero clean, two failed tests

Marlon Byrd, same thing.

There are far more players like Perez, Byrd, and Gibbons that were at career worsts when they failed their tests than guys like Cabrera that were at career bests when they passed. This does not prove that players are better baseball players because they take a PED.

I'm sure it helps, but it doesn't automatically make you a better baseball player.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 06:05 PM
It is great that MLB's Drug Testing policy is able to find this through the masking agents.

You have to assume some guys are taking some form of PED's but it's still undetectable.

jonnydanger1
08-22-2012, 06:05 PM
A little off topic, but I was going through his stats and apparently we won the Cy-Young in '05, but look at his numbers, how the **** did he win it?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.shtml#ALcya

kingjaymes23
08-22-2012, 06:06 PM
I did read it, but just didn't respond to that part. But here's the problem with that: where do you draw the line? Should the entire team get punished if someone failed for marijuana? Other drugs? If they do anything illegal? Why should the teams be responsible for everything a player does? Should a team get punished because someone got a DUI? These are decisions made by individuals, not teams. Individuals should be punished, not teams.

Those do not effect the on field product. Why in the world would the team be punished for a DUI or domestic violence case? That makes no sense. When a player is on the field using a substance and helping his team win games, that's when the team should be punished. If a team risks losing say 10 games, would they not do everything possible to make sure nobody uses or even thinks about it? Right now there is little incentive on the team and the risk of having an average player be suspended is minimal compared to the reward of having an average player become above average and help your team win games they would not have won without you. Comparing those two instances just is ridiculous

fingerbang
08-22-2012, 06:11 PM
So Jay Gibbons, Neifi Perez, and Marlon Byrd.

All with years under their belt with passed PED tests, finally fail a test when their performance was at a career low. They failed, during their play that was horrible (the suspension comes out more than a month after they fail their test, meaning they were not suddenly taking it to improve bad performance. They were playing while their failed their test, and continued to do so).

Jay Gibbons

2005
.833 OPS - two clean, passed tests
2006
.799 OPS - two clean, passed tests
2007
.621 OPS - one failed test

But it def makes you a better baseball player?

Neifi Perez

2005
.681 OPS - two clean, passed tests
2006
.575 OPS - two clean, passed tests
2007
.486 OPS - zero clean, two failed tests

Marlon Byrd, same thing.

There are far more players like Perez, Byrd, and Gibbons that were at career worsts when they failed their tests than guys like Cabrera that were at career bests when they passed. This does not prove that players are better baseball players because they take a PED.

I'm sure it helps, but it doesn't automatically make you a better baseball player.

Ever heard of a confounding variable? Maybe they got injured/declined and started to use them to get back to their old form. A two player sample sixe isnt all that impressive.

It's scientifiic fact that PEDs make you stronger and faster. Running and swinging faster is going to make you a better athlete.

It's like when poeple try to disprove global warming because it was cold the day before.

cp78
08-22-2012, 06:16 PM
this isn't gimnastics being bigger and stronger help in almost every sport including this one, that extra strength could turn a ground out into a hotshot that the infielder didn't have time to dive for,

you don't have to quantify anything, take away 6 wins, that's worth about 3 full games in a teams winning% now, I'm not arguing for this, I'm just saying you don't have to go case by case, but i guess you could also subtract however many wins their WAR indicates rounding up, so 5.3 war equals 6 vacated wins to go along with the suspension, also, teams should be allowed to void contracts as well.

Exactly, an espn guy on around the horn had the same idea, take the Wins Above Replacement away. For example, according to baseball prospectus the WAR for Cabrerra was 5.1, and for Colon it was 1.7. So take away 5 wins and 2 ( rounding up). Easy, done!

jonnydanger1
08-22-2012, 06:18 PM
Those do not effect the on field product. Why in the world would the team be punished for a DUI or domestic violence case? That makes no sense. When a player is on the field using a substance and helping his team win games, that's when the team should be punished. If a team risks losing say 10 games, would they not do everything possible to make sure nobody uses or even thinks about it? Right now there is little incentive on the team and the risk of having an average player be suspended is minimal compared to the reward of having an average player become above average and help your team win games they would not have won without you. Comparing those two instances just is ridiculous

The bottom line is the team can only do so much, if anything, to prevent players from taking PEDs. The only person that can be truly responsible for their actions is the player. There is the option of the MLB adopting a different type of test that sees the player's testerone levels for the past 2 weeks as opposed to the one now, that only sees the player's levels for the last 24 hours or if the took they the patch, only 6 hours.

ciaban
08-22-2012, 06:18 PM
I did read it, but just didn't respond to that part. But here's the problem with that: where do you draw the line? Should the entire team get punished if someone failed for marijuana? Other drugs? If they do anything illegal? Why should the teams be responsible for everything a player does? Should a team get punished because someone got a DUI? These are decisions made by individuals, not teams. Individuals should be punished, not teams.
what about teams that are loosing games because the other team has player(s) that are cheating, so the player should be punished and also the opposition that lost games because of this individual? No one it's fair, but life isn't fair.

weed and booze don't make players noticeably better, and neither does getting a DUI, when talking about substance that unnaturally make make players better or help them train to get better does help teams win games, im not advocating the abolition of wins, but there are ways to do it,

So Jay Gibbons, Neifi Perez, and Marlon Byrd.

All with years under their belt with passed PED tests, finally fail a test when their performance was at a career low. They failed, during their play that was horrible (the suspension comes out more than a month after they fail their test, meaning they were not suddenly taking it to improve bad performance. They were playing while their failed their test, and continued to do so).

Jay Gibbons

2005
.833 OPS - two clean, passed tests
2006
.799 OPS - two clean, passed tests
2007
.621 OPS - one failed test

But it def makes you a better baseball player?

Neifi Perez

2005
.681 OPS - two clean, passed tests
2006
.575 OPS - two clean, passed tests
2007
.486 OPS - zero clean, two failed tests

Marlon Byrd, same thing.

There are far more players like Perez, Byrd, and Gibbons that were at career worsts when they failed their tests than guys like Cabrera that were at career bests when they passed. This does not prove that players are better baseball players because they take a PED.

I'm sure it helps, but it doesn't automatically make you a better baseball player.
I would like to suggest that had an individual named Pete Pepper who had progressively worse performance's year after year if he had not been popping PED's couldn't his production been worse than it already was? That the only thing sustaining his production was the PED

ciaban
08-22-2012, 06:20 PM
what the mlb could and should do is constantly test the players, it's not like the don't have the money for it, and any cost is well worth cleaning up the game and it's image

theslick1
08-22-2012, 06:33 PM
Exactly, an espn guy on around the horn had the same idea, take the Wins Above Replacement away. For example, according to baseball prospectus the WAR for Cabrerra was 5.1, and for Colon it was 1.7. So take away 5 wins and 2 ( rounding up). Easy, done!

I don't like the idea of taking wins away from a team, but the problem with using WAR in the manner suggested is that it assumes that the Giants and A's would have replaced Cabrera and Colon with replacement level players (0.0 WAR), which probably wouldn't have been the case.

ciaban
08-22-2012, 06:39 PM
I don't like the idea of taking wins away from a team, but the problem with using WAR in the manner suggested is that it assumes that the Giants and A's would have replaced Cabrera and Colon with replacement level players (0.0 WAR), which probably wouldn't have been the case.

it doesn't matter if they had someone who would have put up better numbers in AAA, because they weren't the ones getting the Innings or At Bats

cp78
08-22-2012, 07:07 PM
I don't like the idea of taking wins away from a team, but the problem with using WAR in the manner suggested is that it assumes that the Giants and A's would have replaced Cabrera and Colon with replacement level players (0.0 WAR), which probably wouldn't have been the case.

True, they probably would have replaced them with another player who was able to get away with juicing in the offseason or off days. I'd say a 0.0 WAR player is more likely to be clean.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 07:31 PM
Ever heard of a confounding variable? Maybe they got injured/declined and started to use them to get back to their old form. A two player sample sixe isnt all that impressive.
I just gave you 25 players and the stat of 'less than 10%' were having peak valued seasons.


It's scientifiic fact that PEDs make you stronger and faster. Running and swinging faster is going to make you a better athlete.
But it isn't going to make you better at baseball. Baseball is a mechanically skilled game. I'm sure it makes you a better athlete.

This is the Herb Washington expierement all over again. You can be an Olypmic caliber runner and still be a bad base runner, because of the nature of the game of baseball.


It's like when poeple try to disprove global warming because it was cold the day before.

Or because of the cyclical nature of earth, the 10,000 per year glacial winters, or the other amount of evidence that helps disproves or approves any theory/argument.

My whole issue with this discussion is when people say things like

Melky and Bartolo prior to PED use were average to below average players. With PED's they helped the team win a lot of games.



Besides Jose Bautista this was probably the most obvious case or PED use that wasn't reported...until now.



i just feel like the hand eye coordination argument effects a small % of actual steroid users. Theres no way to prove it. But lets face it colon career should have ended 4 years ago. The fact that he was still pitching effectively shows that steroids can make a below average player into an average or above average player..


completely explains why Colon and Melky went to being terrible to being really good the last two years.



None of this is true. It's just people making an assumption based on their own theories. There is nothing to support it but theories.

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 07:33 PM
I would like to suggest that had an individual named Pete Pepper who had progressively worse performance's year after year if he had not been popping PED's couldn't his production been worse than it already was? That the only thing sustaining his production was the PED

So why did all of these players finally decide to not do whatever they were doing to avoid suspension?

They were apparently not taking anything when they were good. But they were taking something when they were bad?

ciaban
08-22-2012, 07:36 PM
So why did all of these players finally decide to not do whatever they were doing to avoid suspension?

They were apparently not taking anything when they were good. But they were taking something when they were bad?

maybe they didn't get caught until their skills hit rock bottom?

Jeffy25
08-22-2012, 07:40 PM
maybe they didn't get caught until their skills hit rock bottom?

If that was the case, and these guys have been able to trick the tests for multiple years, why did they suddenly become dumb and stop doing whatever they were doing that was fooling the tests?

They were obviously being tested this whole time. Every player since 2005 has to be tested at minimum twice a year at 'random' times. And that's the minimum, some are hopefully tested more than that.

ciaban
08-22-2012, 08:18 PM
If that was the case, and these guys have been able to trick the tests for multiple years, why did they suddenly become dumb and stop doing whatever they were doing that was fooling the tests?

They were obviously being tested this whole time. Every player since 2005 has to be tested at minimum twice a year at 'random' times. And that's the minimum, some are hopefully tested more than that.

well the drop in production could have caused them to get desperate and take a larger dose,

and i am not sure people are getting tested twice a year, unfortunately.

no one said that PED's will win you a home run title, you still have whatever natural athleticism and skill that you would up to that point, but they do help with training, recovery from injuries and enhance your ability, they just do jeffy, even in a skill sport. If they weren't that big of a deal or important why are they banned? Why do people still take them? btw golf/bowling are more skill oriented sports and people still use, because they can help increase strength and durability which in those sports is important.

Guppyfighter
08-22-2012, 08:23 PM
Vacating wins would is an absolutely asinine things and using the argument it will make franchise be more careful is just as dumb. These are grown men and you can't watch them 24/7. At some point they'd be alone and they would do it if they wanted too. Just a dumb proposal and a dumb reason for that proposal.

agureghian
08-22-2012, 08:34 PM
Yeah it probably is because you are an A's fan. If a guy throws with any substance on his hand, he gets thrown out of the game. If you use testosteron to get an unfair advantage, the team is not punished at all. Sorry I don't see how that makes me an idiot except for the fact that you are an A's fan and don't agree with what I said

First of all, they arent going to do that.
Second, if they wanted to do that, they would have to negate every win in which Melky got a hit, run, or fielded a ball. They would have to negate every instance of PED use in baseball, not for just this seasons but for each season. Barry Bonds, the most obvious PED user still holds the all time HR record despite everyone knowing that he is a steroid user. They need to make the test more comprehensive, the penalties harsher, and punish the teams if they have someone who is a offender under contract.

GreatBeardOfZeu
08-22-2012, 08:56 PM
I think the A's should be forced to forfeit those 10 games that they won as a direct result of him cheating. It is much easier with a pitcher to see the effect than with a hitter as was Melky's case. Those are 10 games that they won (putting them in the playoffs as of right now) as a direct result of a cheater taking the mound and using an unfair advantage. I know this will not happen, but this is what should happen to deter players from using

I completely disagree with you, there is a reason Baseball is a team sport, and you would be taking away from the hitters that scored the runs to win those games

carnage101
08-22-2012, 10:11 PM
Colon was back in the game because of his stem-cell injections, not because of steroids. In fact, I don't think he has ever taken a steroid, has he? Testerone rise doesn't mean steroid

testerone is a tell tail sign of steroid use. There is no reason unless you have cancer to explain it.

carnage101
08-22-2012, 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
I would love to see you prove this

Is there something I'm missing about a definitive timeline of Melky Cabrera and Bartolo Colon's steroid usage? Or are you just assuming that they began using prior to 2010 because it fits your preconceived notions that steroids can take a below average player to All Star caliber? Also, if that was the case, and Melky and Colon have been able to trick the tests for a year and a half, why did they suddenly become dumb and stop doing whatever they were doing that was fooling the tests

the system isn't perfect that is steroid testing. Things can remain in your system longer than expected. These are baseball players managing their bodies not doctors.

I'm sorry but if you take two identical players ones with equal talent and you give one steroids and the other one is legit. The chances of the person on steroids having better short term numbers is greater than the legit person.

carnage101
08-22-2012, 10:25 PM
If that was the case, and these guys have been able to trick the tests for multiple years, why did they suddenly become dumb and stop doing whatever they were doing that was fooling the tests?

They were obviously being tested this whole time. Every player since 2005 has to be tested at minimum twice a year at 'random' times. And that's the minimum, some are hopefully tested more than that.

Theres lots of things that can happen players can get wind of when they will be tested. Its not as easy as saying just because a player was tested twice a year doesn't mean they didn't do steroids.

you gave a list of players that got caught but what about the list of 103 players that were caught that you don't know about?

i'm going to go out on a limb and say these players were on roids.
Juan gonzalez
Sammy Sosa
Fred mgcriff
Brady anderson


none of these players on your list.. There is no way to prove legitimately steroids increased anyones performance the whole point is they have an unfair advantage to those who play the game the right way with out using roids.

The fact of the matter still remains they broke the rules of baseball.

steroids give a player an unfair advantage. Andy petite did it to prevent injury isn't that unfair to the players that did get hurt?

BDawk4Prez
08-23-2012, 12:20 AM
I didn't realize he still played? :shrug:

kingjaymes23
08-23-2012, 08:10 AM
First of all, they arent going to do that.
Second, if they wanted to do that, they would have to negate every win in which Melky got a hit, run, or fielded a ball. They would have to negate every instance of PED use in baseball, not for just this seasons but for each season. Barry Bonds, the most obvious PED user still holds the all time HR record despite everyone knowing that he is a steroid user. They need to make the test more comprehensive, the penalties harsher, and punish the teams if they have someone who is a offender under contract.

They would not have to go back. That is your main argument that they'd have to go back and punish all teams that ever had a user. If a new rule is made, the league doesn't have to go back in time and change history, they start with punishments AFTER the rule. It's like in football with the illegal hits punishments. Did they have to go back and review every hit ever and fine those guys? No, they started it at that point.

kingjaymes23
08-23-2012, 08:16 AM
So why did all of these players finally decide to not do whatever they were doing to avoid suspension?

They were apparently not taking anything when they were good. But they were taking something when they were bad?

I really can't believe you are still arguing that PEDs don't help. One of your points was a few of the players caught were "out of baseball at that point so obviously it didn't help" :facepalm:. Really tho, that's a funny argument you are trying to make. Have you ever thought that they knew their career was coming to an end so they used PEDs to try to prolong their career, but they were getting up in age so much that even the added boost couldn't help? Wow

Jeffy25
08-23-2012, 11:34 AM
well the drop in production could have caused them to get desperate and take a larger dose,

and i am not sure people are getting tested twice a year, unfortunately.


You have to in order to be allowed to play in the Major Leagues, it's part of the CBA.


Nobody has yet to explain why a player who has consistently been beating the tests for years, finally decide to get stupid and then fail the test.

You honestly believe they were taking in their good years, beat the tests, and then failed while slumping because they 'got stupid'?



no one said that PED's will win you a home run title, you still have whatever natural athleticism and skill that you would up to that point, but they do help with training, recovery from injuries and enhance your ability, they just do jeffy, even in a skill sport. If they weren't that big of a deal or important why are they banned? Why do people still take them? btw golf/bowling are more skill oriented sports and people still use, because they can help increase strength and durability which in those sports is important.

No but people are saying this is why these players have turned into all-stars, which is flat out illogical.

There are players who steroids could make better; there are players that steroids will not help (Alex Sanchez, anyone?). There are players who will be clean and perform better than expected; there are players who will be dirty and perform worse than expected. Convicting people in the court of public opinion based simply on numbers in a game where numbers wildly fluctuate because of myriad factors like health, sample size, general ebb and flow and downright dumb luck is simply irresponsible.

and that's what a number of people are doing in this thread. There is no logic behind it. It's just people spouting off theories to explain cause and effect, when PED's themselves are not necessarily the reason. People just jump to that conclusion, and that's wrong.

Jeffy25
08-23-2012, 11:37 AM
First of all, they arent going to do that.
Second, if they wanted to do that, they would have to negate every win in which Melky got a hit, run, or fielded a ball. They would have to negate every instance of PED use in baseball, not for just this seasons but for each season. Barry Bonds, the most obvious PED user still holds the all time HR record despite everyone knowing that he is a steroid user. They need to make the test more comprehensive, the penalties harsher, and punish the teams if they have someone who is a offender under contract.

to add to that, are we going to go back and credit every pitcher that gave up a hit or a walk to Bonds and credit him with an out or a non plate appearance? And how do we define who was actually taking or not? We have no way of knowing.

Let's re-write the history books based on bad information, instead of just keeping what we have, knowing it is right, and then knowing the story of how it happened.

The idea of taking away wins is to provide a corrective punishment for something that isn't going to happen. It's just punishing an organization for having something go on that they never endorsed.

Jeffy25
08-23-2012, 11:43 AM
Theres lots of things that can happen players can get wind of when they will be tested. Its not as easy as saying just because a player was tested twice a year doesn't mean they didn't do steroids.

you gave a list of players that got caught but what about the list of 103 players that were caught that you don't know about?

i'm going to go out on a limb and say these players were on roids.
Juan gonzalez
Sammy Sosa
Fred mgcriff
Brady anderson


none of these players on your list.. There is no way to prove legitimately steroids increased anyones performance the whole point is they have an unfair advantage to those who play the game the right way with out using roids.

The fact of the matter still remains they broke the rules of baseball.

steroids give a player an unfair advantage. Andy petite did it to prevent injury isn't that unfair to the players that did get hurt?

That, and well....most of these guys were not playing post-2005 or were at the very end of their careers.

They didn't break the rules of baseball, because when they did use, it wasn't against the direct rules, as-in, there was no disciplinary action, and testing in place to monitor it. You can blame Selig for dragging his feet on steroid testing since you are upset that you feel some players cheated. But you can't blame the players who may have taken advantage of an opportunity during the time they played. You would like to hope they didn't, but we can never really know unless they tell us they did.

And again, is there something about just picking a few good sluggers out of a hat and saying 'these guys cheated' we need to provide corrective punishment, and somehow ignoring the slew of under-performing players that cheated as well? That they somehow get a pass, but judgment should be passed on the good players? But if you were not good it just doesn't matter?

Why is it only the good players that deserve this hatred? Why do you/others feel cheated by this? It's in the past, it is not 2012, and they do not have anything to do with Colon.

Jeffy25
08-23-2012, 11:47 AM
I really can't believe you are still arguing that PEDs don't help. One of your points was a few of the players caught were "out of baseball at that point so obviously it didn't help" :facepalm:. Really tho, that's a funny argument you are trying to make. Have you ever thought that they knew their career was coming to an end so they used PEDs to try to prolong their career, but they were getting up in age so much that even the added boost couldn't help? Wow

Seeing how it didn't help 90% of players replicate their performances of just two years prior. I would say it's pretty evident it doesn't make someone that much better of a baseball player.

Seriously.

Jay Gibbons goes from being a .830 OPS solid everyday outfielder, and two years later, while still in his prime, is a .450 OPS hitter and fails his drug test. And we are to believe that PED's will make you a better ball player?

WE DO NOT KNOW! I am not saying PED's will NOT make you a better ball player, I am saying we don't know. And with the nature of the game, that only makes sense. People need to stop with the 'see, that's why he was an all-star! Because he was roiding' nonsense. It's illogical and irresponsible.

RTL
08-23-2012, 11:49 AM
The Crimedog used steroids. I have heard it all now

1908_Cubs
08-23-2012, 12:39 PM
Well....just one thing to point out: to those who say "why would they just suddenly become stupid", it's kind of like how in Monopoly, if you cheat once and take $50 without anyone seeing, you do it again. And once you do it 3-4 times, you start taking bigger bills until someone calls you out on the random pile of $500's you all of a sudden have? Players get cocky. It's very conceivable for some one like Colon to have began to up the dose he needed for either sake of being cocky, or maybe with age/stress of pitching every 5th day he needed to recover a little more......

I'm not saying he took them prior or not, but it's not like there's no reasonable explanation for why he would suddenly spike, either.

Jeffy25
08-23-2012, 02:22 PM
Well....just one thing to point out: to those who say "why would they just suddenly become stupid", it's kind of like how in Monopoly, if you cheat once and take $50 without anyone seeing, you do it again. And once you do it 3-4 times, you start taking bigger bills until someone calls you out on the random pile of $500's you all of a sudden have? Players get cocky. It's very conceivable for some one like Colon to have began to up the dose he needed for either sake of being cocky, or maybe with age/stress of pitching every 5th day he needed to recover a little more......

I'm not saying he took them prior or not, but it's not like there's no reasonable explanation for why he would suddenly spike, either.

Well the truth is that most robberies/cheaters/burglars continue to cheat until they get caught. That is reality.

But being caught with a failed drug test in a bad season after passing them during your good seasons is some contrary evidence to the theory that taking a PED makes you a better baseball player.

carnage101
08-23-2012, 03:48 PM
You have to in order to be allowed to play in the Major Leagues, it's part of the CBA.


Nobody has yet to explain why a player who has consistently been beating the tests for years, finally decide to get stupid and then fail the test.

You honestly believe they were taking in their good years, beat the tests, and then failed while slumping because they 'got stupid'?




No but people are saying this is why these players have turned into all-stars, which is flat out illogical.

There are players who steroids could make better; there are players that steroids will not help (Alex Sanchez, anyone?). There are players who will be clean and perform better than expected; there are players who will be dirty and perform worse than expected. Convicting people in the court of public opinion based simply on numbers in a game where numbers wildly fluctuate because of myriad factors like health, sample size, general ebb and flow and downright dumb luck is simply irresponsible.

and that's what a number of people are doing in this thread. There is no logic behind it. It's just people spouting off theories to explain cause and effect, when PED's themselves are not necessarily the reason. People just jump to that conclusion, and that's wrong.

i told you sometimes drugs can stay in your system longer than expected. testosterone stays in your system for 8 days, the fact that mlb is increasing the amounts of tests would explain why more people are getting caught. Topical steroids such as creams and ointments last 4 hours in your system.

Jeffy25
08-23-2012, 11:41 PM
Why would they take them if they didn't help? Answer-they wouldnt


It's already been proven that PEDs enhance atheletic ability. You don't think an increase in bat speed or strenth is going to make you a better player?

I'll quote a friend on another forum

"We know, generally speaking, what steroids do--they increase muscle mass. That means that if you have a mucsle injury such as a tear or a pull, they let you recover faster. It also means that you can bulk up faster with steriod use.

I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that recovering from an injury faster is beneficial to almost anyone. It's why so many of the baseball players who have actually tested positive have been journeymen relief pitchers. Pitching causes small tears in your muscle tissue. Generally, the damage from pitching isn't enough to cause you to go on the DL or anything, but it eventually any unhealed damage is cumulative. That's why starters only start every 5th day or so--to give them time to heal between starts. With relievers, since they pitch less in each outing than starters, the damage doesn't accumulate as fast with each appearance, so they can pitch 2 or 3 days or so in a row, but after that, they need a day or 2 off to recover. Steroids speed up that recovery, so a reliever using steroids should be able to pitch more often. But "more often" doesn't mean "better".

For starting pitchers, steroids should also speed the recovery time, and allow them to pitch on short rest more often, but managers nowdays are so hesitant to use starters on short rest in most cases that I'm not sure it matters.

For non-pitchers, recovery time between games isn't that big of an issue, so steriods use among non-pitchers is primarily about bulking up. However, while bulking up almost certainly benefits an NFL lineman, there's little reason to believe that it directly helps you hit a baseball or make a play in the field."

CubsBullsBucs
08-24-2012, 12:14 AM
39, 300 pounds, didnt pitch for like 4 years, comes back, hits 95 on the radar gun. i think the MLB drug program should be suspended 50 games for this not coming out a year ago.....

Jeffy25
08-24-2012, 12:07 PM
39, 300 pounds, didnt pitch for like 4 years, comes back, hits 95 on the radar gun. i think the MLB drug program should be suspended 50 games for this not coming out a year ago.....

weighs 265 pounds
didn't pitch for 1 year (2010)
hardest he has pitched this season is 93
he had stem cell injections and has been tested more than most guys because of that


Only thing you got right was his age :laugh2:

CubsBullsBucs
08-24-2012, 12:39 PM
weighs 265 pounds
didn't pitch for 1 year (2010)
hardest he has pitched this season is 93
he had stem cell injections and has been tested more than most guys because of that


Only thing you got right was his age :laugh2:

Ha. He did not pitch in the majors most of 2006, 2008, and 2009. then, he completely missed 2010. And LAST year, as i said, he did reach 95 mph. bartolo was/is one of my fav pitchers, but all im saying is that after a few starts in 2011, the MLB should have known he was taking something because a fat 38 year old after missing a year doesnt come back and throw mid to upper 90's.

Jeffy25
08-24-2012, 12:42 PM
Ha. He did not pitch in the majors most of 2006, 2008, and 2009. then, he completely missed 2010. And LAST year, as i said, he did reach 95 mph. bartolo was/is one of my fav pitchers, but all im saying is that after a few starts in 2011, the MLB should have known he was taking something because a fat 38 year old after missing a year doesnt come back and throw mid to upper 90's.

fair enough.

But he has been consistently tested, more than most guys, because of his stem cell injections.

He has been passing tests since coming back last year, this was his first failed test

CubsBullsBucs
08-24-2012, 05:56 PM
ya i know. which makes me wonder, was he taking steroids in 05 when he won cy young? i dont think so but there always seemed something off with Bartolo. hope he pitches next year w/out any performance enhancers. one of the last expos and a fun guy to watch pitch.

fingerbang
08-24-2012, 07:04 PM
I'll quote a friend on another forum

"We know, generally speaking, what steroids do--they increase muscle mass. That means that if you have a mucsle injury such as a tear or a pull, they let you recover faster. It also means that you can bulk up faster with steriod use.

I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that recovering from an injury faster is beneficial to almost anyone. It's why so many of the baseball players who have actually tested positive have been journeymen relief pitchers. Pitching causes small tears in your muscle tissue. Generally, the damage from pitching isn't enough to cause you to go on the DL or anything, but it eventually any unhealed damage is cumulative. That's why starters only start every 5th day or so--to give them time to heal between starts. With relievers, since they pitch less in each outing than starters, the damage doesn't accumulate as fast with each appearance, so they can pitch 2 or 3 days or so in a row, but after that, they need a day or 2 off to recover. Steroids speed up that recovery, so a reliever using steroids should be able to pitch more often. But "more often" doesn't mean "better".

For starting pitchers, steroids should also speed the recovery time, and allow them to pitch on short rest more often, but managers nowdays are so hesitant to use starters on short rest in most cases that I'm not sure it matters.

For non-pitchers, recovery time between games isn't that big of an issue, so steriods use among non-pitchers is primarily about bulking up. However, while bulking up almost certainly benefits an NFL lineman, there's little reason to believe that it directly helps you hit a baseball or make a play in the field."

It's more than recovery time. PEDs allow you to keep on muscle mass that you flat out couldn't without them. There's thousands of college kids that just can't keep on the muscle required to hit for power at the MLB level. PEDs provide a significant edge in that case.

I've got a friend that's a personal trainer and he'd say that PED's certainly have a positive effect. I'm sure I could found a boat load of testimonies from scientists, professors, and users on the internet.