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View Full Version : Can you build around James Harden as a #1 option?



*Superman*
08-21-2012, 08:13 PM
Being discussed in the Magic forum, some think that we should target him when he is a FA( even if he is commanding a max salary) others don't. It's about 50/50 right now. I think he is better suited for a glue guy like Manu, I don't think you build everything around him.

IgglesFanInCO
08-21-2012, 08:26 PM
I could see him being a good #2 guy but he would have to have a great great team to be a #1 and still win

SportsFanatic10
08-21-2012, 08:28 PM
he is good but i also see him being a good number 2 on a contender. not the man though.

xxplayerxx23
08-21-2012, 08:29 PM
TBH I don't see it. I think he is good because of the people around him. Not saying he is a bad player just don't see him being a number 1 option on a championship team.

flatbush knicks
08-21-2012, 08:31 PM
Hell yeah why not dudes a beast

Chronz
08-21-2012, 08:31 PM
This is such an lame question, LOTS of all-stars can win, you can win in a variety of ways. Asking if we can envision a team win a chip with Harden as its best player then the answer is yes.

Chronz
08-21-2012, 08:32 PM
TBH I don't see it. I think he is good because of the people around him. Not saying he is a bad player just don't see him being a number 1 option on a championship team.

Can you offer your opinion on why Harden see his #'s skyrocket when Durant and Westbrook arent on the floor? He gos from like a 15ppg guy to 30 without them.

xxplayerxx23
08-21-2012, 08:34 PM
Can you offer your opinion on why Harden see his #'s skyrocket when Durant and Westbrook arent on the floor? He gos from like a 15ppg guy to 30 without them.

The guy has a boatload of talent but wouldn't you agree that bench players are not on the floor when Westy and Durant are on the bench? And how many minutes has he played with both of them on the bench? Not saying Harden can't play well as the number one option but on a championship caliabar team he can't be the guy IMO.

Hoopsadvocate
08-21-2012, 08:36 PM
Yes, here is a mock team where he is the number 1 option on the floor with some future FAs to add around him.

pg: Brandon Jennings / Ty Lawson
sg: James Harden
sf: Kawhi Leonard/ Derrick Williams
pf:Josh Smith
c: Al jefferson

Well balanced team with defenders and scorers.

tredigs
08-21-2012, 08:37 PM
He's 22 and still incomplete, but he's insanely good at getting to the hoop and drawing contact, and he's an elite shooter; he just had one of the most efficient shooting seasons in NBA history actually. A TS% of 66% on >15 ppg for a non-big is unheard of. Nash has never even quite reached that.

His efficiency is not because of his teammates, it's just who he is. His numbers were similar at AZ state as a #1 option (only difference being his FT shooting has improved). He's just a very good/efficient player.

In a couple years, on the right balanced team, yeah he could be the #1 option you'd build around. Although I don't think he ever reaches top 5 player status.

mzgrizz
08-21-2012, 08:37 PM
No he's a great player a la Scottie Pippen

mdm692
08-21-2012, 08:43 PM
My Suns will find out next season ;). *knock on wood* :pray:.

Panthers4life
08-21-2012, 08:51 PM
yeah, come to the ATL

PG-Jeff Teague
SG-James Harden
SF-Kyle Korver
PF-Josh Smith
C-Al Horford
6th man-Lou Williams

EDUTEXANS
08-21-2012, 08:52 PM
Yes. I don't think he makes the team a contender, but I think he would be a solid option. It's so hard to find a superstar to build around in the FA, and I think, for the Magic, it would be the best option as they don't have much chance at guys like CP3. And as a Rockets' fan I wouldn't mind signing him for the Max if Lamb doesn't pan out this season. Lin and Harden would be a nice duo to build around, with two hight picks next year.

heyman321
08-21-2012, 08:56 PM
If choking and playing like crap in the Finals gets you a franchise player designation, then yes.

Gritz
08-21-2012, 08:57 PM
Nah, the finals changed my mind

Vinylman
08-21-2012, 09:01 PM
where is the fcuk NO option?

Mave1002
08-21-2012, 09:03 PM
Being discussed in the Magic forum, some think that we should target him when he is a FA( even if he is commanding a max salary) others don't. It's about 50/50 right now. I think he is better suited for a glue guy like Manu, I don't think you build everything around him.

there ya go

Lakerhead4ever
08-21-2012, 09:06 PM
My answer is no. But if you put him with a center like Bynum, and a sixer team, look out nba!

rapjuicer06
08-21-2012, 09:28 PM
I say no. He is a solid player. Can win a game for you, can win a series for you, but you can not put a team on his back and tell him to win a season for you.

People say he plays well when Durant and Westbrook aren't in....Well to that I say no ****. Because when those two aren't in, the opposing teams starters are not in. Orlando, a team trying to build through the draft, can NOT make a winning team with that and pairing them up with Harden as a MAXED out player. Just wouldn't work. Harden is very efficient, yes. This is true. Put the ball in his hands and have him shoot 20+ times a game and take Westbrook and Durant away and have 1st-3rd year players all around him, you can throw that efficiency out the window.

He is a guy who can be the finishing piece to a team, but not a starting piece to a team.

TheNumber37
08-21-2012, 09:36 PM
maybe in 4 years.

good number 2, great 3rd. still best as a scorer in a bunch ( like on the wolves) or a 6th man.

macc
08-21-2012, 09:37 PM
He's 22 and still incomplete, but he's insanely good at getting to the hoop and drawing contact, and he's an elite shooter; he just had one of the most efficient shooting seasons in NBA history actually. A TS% of 66% on >15 ppg for a non-big is unheard of. Nash has never even quite reached that.

His efficiency is not because of his teammates, it's just who he is. His numbers were similar at AZ state as a #1 option (only difference being his FT shooting has improved). He's just a very good/efficient player.

In a couple years, on the right balanced team, yeah he could be the #1 option you'd build around. Although I don't think he ever reaches top 5 player status.




Exactly.

The debate in our forum wasn't weather he would be a #1 option or not. It came down to me saying I would take him over Monta Ellis, Manu, Iguodala or any other sg not named Wade or Kobe. A couple other Magic fans said the players I listed would be better options.

I simply think that's crazy. Harden is only 22 years old and has a complete game. The guy can score, shoot, 3 ball, handles, and pass well. He's only going to get better.

I simply think it would be crazy for someone to think Ellis, AI, or Manu would be a better option to have going forward.

macc
08-21-2012, 09:39 PM
Give it a year or two and Harden will undoubtably be a top 3 sg in this league. Meaning there won't be a debate, kinda how Kobe and Wade are 1 & 2.

Just wait till he's not with OKC anymore since they're not going to be able to afford him once he's a free agent. The guy as a 1 or 2 option will be beasting it in the NBA.

Raidaz4Life
08-21-2012, 09:41 PM
Well you could.. but not being taken seriously as a contender. Harden is your perfect number 2 guy. The prototypical sidekick.

macc
08-21-2012, 09:41 PM
I say no. He is a solid player. Can win a game for you, can win a series for you, but you can not put a team on his back and tell him to win a season for you.

People say he plays well when Durant and Westbrook aren't in....Well to that I say no ****. Because when those two aren't in, the opposing teams starters are not in. Orlando, a team trying to build through the draft, can NOT make a winning team with that and pairing them up with Harden as a MAXED out player. Just wouldn't work. Harden is very efficient, yes. This is true. Put the ball in his hands and have him shoot 20+ times a game and take Westbrook and Durant away and have 1st-3rd year players all around him, you can throw that efficiency out the window.

He is a guy who can be the finishing piece to a team, but not a starting piece to a team.




So if you were the Magic GM and you had a chance to get Harden who would be just under his prime (23-24). You wouldn't give him max money?

Jarvo
08-21-2012, 09:47 PM
No he is a good 2nd or 3rd option.

BKLYNpigeon
08-21-2012, 09:48 PM
The NBA Forum gets dumber and dumber...

--23--
08-21-2012, 09:50 PM
No, but he's great #2 option.

bholly
08-21-2012, 10:13 PM
For all the people wanting him on their team, know that he's going to come at a price - likely picks and guys on rookie contracts or small contracts. And that's if he's available at all. They aren't just going to let him walk.

blastmasta26
08-21-2012, 10:31 PM
Once he improves his D, he could be a number 1 option on a deep team. Realistically, he'd be the second best player on a contender and he's in an ideal situation for OKC where he's the third. He's probably the 3rd best SG now, and will become 2nd soon as Kobe's decline is in progress.

Avenged
08-21-2012, 10:36 PM
where is the fcuk NO option?

This... :facepalm:

SteBO
08-21-2012, 10:37 PM
I'm going to have to go "no" on this one.

dc5jdm
08-21-2012, 10:39 PM
Not in todays NBA

b@llhog24
08-21-2012, 10:53 PM
He just needs a decent big man. Harden is extremely good in the pick and roll. Although I think he'a more in the Billups mold, super efficient player who could excel in any system rather than in the Lebron/Kobe mold of number one options.

KnicksorBust
08-21-2012, 11:12 PM
Looks like about 75% of people have no idea how amazing his season was last season. He arrived.

STL Don
08-21-2012, 11:21 PM
I wouldn't go further than saying Harden would be a good #2 option. I believe he has the potential to POSSIBLY become a #1 talent but he obviously needs more polishing..

Chacarron
08-21-2012, 11:29 PM
Yes.

Losoway
08-21-2012, 11:30 PM
you couldnt even build a house around james harden :facepalm: stupid thread

JasonJohnHorn
08-21-2012, 11:43 PM
The 2004 Pistons proved that you can pretty much build around NOTHING as long as you got the right pieces... I mean... they built that team around Ben Wallace... so yeah... you could build around Harden, but it would be difficult. It's always dificult to build around a SG.

ChicagoFan4Eva
08-21-2012, 11:47 PM
put him on the bulls and the bulls win a ship.

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 08:08 AM
So if you were the Magic GM and you had a chance to get Harden who would be just under his prime (23-24). You wouldn't give him max money?

No. I would not give him max money. But then again I wouldn't be giving out max money to anyone when I'm trying to rebuild through the draft. If I were the GM and had a team full of rookies and 2-4 year players...I'm not giving Harden a max contract because he isn't going to take Orlando to the ship. He'll possibly put Orlando into mediocrity, and I would not want to be there, and then he'll eat up salary and Orlando would be no where near a ship with Harden leading the team


Once he improves his D, he could be a number 1 option on a deep team. Realistically, he'd be the second best player on a contender and he's in an ideal situation for OKC where he's the third. He's probably the 3rd best SG now, and will become 2nd soon as Kobe's decline is in progress.

He's probably the 3rd best SG???? Are you kidding me?

Kobe
Wade
Manu
Joe Johnson
And I would personally put Ellis over Harden for the fact that Ellis doesn't have and never had Westbrook and Durant around him.

Harden is not a top three SG


put him on the bulls and the bulls win a ship.

As a number 2 option. Good point :rolleyes:

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 08:13 AM
Looks like about 75% of people have no idea how amazing his season was last season. He arrived.

Harden had a very good season. Not going to disagree with that. But you put him on a rebuilding team (Magic, Suns) where he has NO help around him...what kind of season is he going to have? He still going to be this efficient? Hell no. The only reason he was so efficient is because he has Westbrook and Durant taking the focus off of him.

b@llhog24
08-22-2012, 08:23 AM
put him on the bulls and the bulls win a ship.

He could put a ton of teams over the top honestly. Philly, Indy, Chicago, Memphis, Dallas.

NYKalltheway
08-22-2012, 08:28 AM
Of course not. Harden's peak is a #2 for a contender (#3 for winner) or if he's a #1 he'll just be an overrated SG

BobbyHillSwag
08-22-2012, 08:45 AM
I dont even see a team being a championship contender with him as the 2nd option. There's no way in hell he could be a first option.

Hellcrooner
08-22-2012, 09:01 AM
Can you ? absolutely.

will the team be very succesfull? that deppends on WHO are his Suporting cast.

Auseranami
08-22-2012, 09:03 AM
The 2004 Pistons proved that you can pretty much build around NOTHING as long as you got the right pieces... I mean... they built that team around Ben Wallace... so yeah... you could build around Harden, but it would be difficult. It's always dificult to build around a SG.

Ben Wallace a four time defensive player of the year? Rasheed, rip, billups, prince, ben. They were all great players.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2012, 09:09 AM
I selected no, but the fact is, any all star caliber player can "lead" a team to a championship as its best player if he has a great cast/coach and health around him. But no, as far as guys you would want to start a franchise with, Harden is a ways down the list. He is the ultimate #2-3 guy right now though.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2012, 09:10 AM
Furthermore, I would kill to see the Wolves trade for Harden, if it didn't cost them either Love or Rubio.

sixer04fan
08-22-2012, 09:20 AM
You can build around him as your best player... But your team wouldn't be too good.

king4day
08-22-2012, 09:23 AM
He'll be worth a max deal simply because that means you lured a top free agent. Then you worry about continuing to build and add another star in the future.

I believe he can be the #1 option with a team like HoopsAdvocate said.

$GangGr33n$
08-22-2012, 10:11 AM
i put yes in the thought that the 76ers were built "around" Iggy. I can see a team building aroung Harden like that. But definitely not in a Kobe, LeBron, Melo, Durant kind of built around

ChiSox219
08-22-2012, 11:06 AM
I selected no, but the fact is, any all star caliber player can "lead" a team to a championship as its best player if he has a great cast/coach and health around him. But no, as far as guys you would want to start a franchise with, Harden is a ways down the list. He is the ultimate #2-3 guy right now though.

How far down the list?

KnicksorBust
08-22-2012, 11:21 AM
Harden had a very good season. Not going to disagree with that. But you put him on a rebuilding team (Magic, Suns) where he has NO help around him...what kind of season is he going to have? He still going to be this efficient? Hell no. The only reason he was so efficient is because he has Westbrook and Durant taking the focus off of him.

A very good season? :laugh:

He was HISTORICALLY effecient. It was the 23rd most effecient scoring season in NBA HISTORY. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_season.html

Look at few guys that are ahead of him. They are all either big men, sharpshooters, guys that barely averaged double digits, or a combination of them. He's a shooting guard who averaged 17ppg. Look at some of these numbers:

7th in Isolation Offense
9th in PnR Ball Handler
28th in Spot-Up
1st in Off Screen
1st in Hand-Off
3rd in Cutting
87th in Transition

He was effecient in every method of scoring that could be tracked. To assume that he might be regress carrying the scoring load for an inferior team is fair. But even if he drops he's still landing among the stars.

GREATNESS ONE
08-22-2012, 11:24 AM
I like Harden but right now the answer is No.

Raidaz4Life
08-22-2012, 11:24 AM
i put yes in the thought that the 76ers were built "around" Iggy. I can see a team building aroung Harden like that. But definitely not in a Kobe, LeBron, Melo, Durant kind of built around

One could say that the sixers biggest criticism over the past 3 years has been building around Iggy when he just is not a good enough centerpiece.

koreancabbage
08-22-2012, 11:26 AM
he can be on the Raps LOL just surround good players with good role players.

BobbyHillSwag
08-22-2012, 11:27 AM
Hell to be fair, you could build around tj ford as your best player but your team wouldnt be good. No way in hell you build around harden in any circumstance unless you are the Bobcats.

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 11:35 AM
A very good season? :laugh:

He was HISTORICALLY effecient. It was the 23rd most effecient scoring season in NBA HISTORY. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_season.html

Look at few guys that are ahead of him. They are all either big men, sharpshooters, guys that barely averaged double digits, or a combination of them. He's a shooting guard who averaged 17ppg. Look at some of these numbers:

7th in Isolation Offense
9th in PnR Ball Handler
28th in Spot-Up
1st in Off Screen
1st in Hand-Off
3rd in Cutting
87th in Transition

He was effecient in every method of scoring that could be tracked. To assume that he might be regress carrying the scoring load for an inferior team is fair. But even if he drops he's still landing among the stars.

Sorry. He had a historic season, being the third option on the team, playing against other 2nd stringers and having wide open looks thanks to Durant and Westbrook. Yes, build a team around that guy! Then watch him fall off and start sucking and listen to everyone say he's overrated. Harden on his own would = Monta Ellis or Paul Pierce when he was on his own. That would be the best scenario for Harden is PP. Which is good, don't get me wrong...but they were never really Championship contenders until they surrounded him with 2 other HOFers

Heediot
08-22-2012, 11:41 AM
Yes you can but it has to be similar to the Pistons team of the early and mid 2000's. He would be similar to Chauncey Billups, as he was the number one option. The team has to surround him with top notch defense, and role players that elevate team chemistry. That doesn't mean you should over-pay for him, it just means it's possible to create a great team around a guy like him.

Heediot
08-22-2012, 11:43 AM
Nah, the finals changed my mind

Man you guys are way too hard on 22 year olds.

Heediot
08-22-2012, 11:47 AM
The 2004 Pistons proved that you can pretty much build around NOTHING as long as you got the right pieces... I mean... they built that team around Ben Wallace... so yeah... you could build around Harden, but it would be difficult. It's always dificult to build around a SG.

Exactly. It's not impossible. Look at the Spurs right now, they are contenders with Parker/Ginobili either/or as number one options. I don't think Harden's ceiling would be any worse than those two and they still make it work.

ChiSox219
08-22-2012, 11:48 AM
You can't build around one player, you need at least three stars these days.

KnicksorBust
08-22-2012, 11:49 AM
Sorry. He had a historic season, being the third option on the team, playing against other 2nd stringers and having wide open looks thanks to Durant and Westbrook. Yes, build a team around that guy! Then watch him fall off and start sucking and listen to everyone say he's overrated. Harden on his own would = Monta Ellis or Paul Pierce when he was on his own. That would be the best scenario for Harden is PP. Which is good, don't get me wrong...but they were never really Championship contenders until they surrounded him with 2 other HOFers

Chronz already pointed out this wasn't the case. His numbers improved when they weren't on the floor.

If it's so easy as a 2nd/3rd option then why did Bosh's effeciency numbers decline once he got to Miami? Why was Kobe more effecient AFTER Shaq left?

Heediot
08-22-2012, 11:50 AM
A very good season? :laugh:

He was HISTORICALLY effecient. It was the 23rd most effecient scoring season in NBA HISTORY. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_season.html

Look at few guys that are ahead of him. They are all either big men, sharpshooters, guys that barely averaged double digits, or a combination of them. He's a shooting guard who averaged 17ppg. Look at some of these numbers:

7th in Isolation Offense
9th in PnR Ball Handler
28th in Spot-Up
1st in Off Screen
1st in Hand-Off
3rd in Cutting
87th in Transition

He was effecient in every method of scoring that could be tracked. To assume that he might be regress carrying the scoring load for an inferior team is fair. But even if he drops he's still landing among the stars.

You forgot first in flops, and he was nominated for best supporting actor at the oscars.

waveycrockett
08-22-2012, 11:57 AM
As of right now I would say no. He has to show me he can be a #1 option. When he becomes a top-15 player then maybe. He has alot of talent but I dont know if he can ever be on that level that Kobe, Wade and even Brandon Roy were on.

Ebbs
08-22-2012, 12:30 PM
I don't see it

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 12:40 PM
Chronz already pointed out this wasn't the case. His numbers improved when they weren't on the floor.

If it's so easy as a 2nd/3rd option then why did Bosh's effeciency numbers decline once he got to Miami? Why was Kobe more effecient AFTER Shaq left?

And the MAIN reason for that is.....because the opposing teams bench is in. Thank you and good night! :bow:

And to answer the second part...Going from the number 1 option to the number 3 option HAS to be hard to deal with. While Bosh is doing it, I'm sure he didn't expect it to be like this. That can easily determine that outcome.

As for Kobe, he had it in him the whole time. I mean did Kobe win because of Shaq? Or did Shaq win because of Kobe? Kobe isn't exactly the best comparison here. Don't insinuate Harden could/will be like Kobe...come on

Hawkeye15
08-22-2012, 12:50 PM
How far down the list?

I would probably put 10-15 players ahead of him as far as who I would choose to become my #1 for the next 5 years. But then again, we haven't seen Harden as a focal point, when many of the guys I would list have been.

macc
08-22-2012, 12:51 PM
And the MAIN reason for that is.....because the opposing teams bench is in. Thank you and good night! :bow:

And to answer the second part...Going from the number 1 option to the number 3 option HAS to be hard to deal with. While Bosh is doing it, I'm sure he didn't expect it to be like this. That can easily determine that outcome.

As for Kobe, he had it in him the whole time. I mean did Kobe win because of Shaq? Or did Shaq win because of Kobe? Kobe isn't exactly the best comparison here. Don't insinuate Harden could/will be like Kobe...come on



Ummmm, Harden plays just under 32 mpg. Last I checked bench players don't play 32 min a game. Sorry just had to state the obvious. You make it sound like Harden can't score on anyone he wants to and only can score against bench players. Eventhough he has scored on everyone who has guarded him all year long. I have yet to see a player who can check Harden regularly. If there is please name him....

Ezekial
08-22-2012, 12:56 PM
He could put a ton of teams over the top honestly. Philly, Indy, Chicago, Memphis, Dallas.

Exactly, but imo you'd need a lot for him to be the #1. Ben Wallace is a good example but that team was an amazing TEAM, they gelled perfectly.

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 12:57 PM
Ummmm, Harden plays just under 32 mpg. Last I checked bench players don't play 32 min a game. Sorry just had to state the obvious. You make it sound like Harden can't score on anyone he wants to and only can score against bench players. Eventhough he has scored on everyone who has guarded him all year long. I have yet to see a player who can check Harden regularly. If there is please name him....

Macc seriously, your reading is ****ing atrocious. They said when Durant and Westbrook aren't on the floor Harden's numbers are better. Westbrook and Durant play around 36 minutes....soooo when they go out, guess what...so does the opposing teams starters.

smith&wesson
08-22-2012, 12:58 PM
he would need a 1a 1b scenerio

for example he would be a good fit on the 76ers

jrue
harden 1b
thad young
hawes
bynum 1a

with turner off the bench as the 6th man.

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 12:58 PM
Can ORLANDO build a WINNING team around James Harden as a #1 option.

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 12:59 PM
he would need a 1a 1b scenerio

for example he would be a good fit on the 76ers

jrue
harden 1b
thad young
hawes
bynum 1a

with turner off the bench as the 6th man.

Honestly...I'd still bring Harden off the bench and leave Turner in starting in this situation

nycericanguy
08-22-2012, 01:03 PM
So if you were the Magic GM and you had a chance to get Harden who would be just under his prime (23-24). You wouldn't give him max money?

In ORL's situation I'd prob give him a max, Harden's max will only be something starting at around $13m, that's not too bad. I mean Brook freaking Lopez got a max deal, if I'm ORL i'm much more comfortable paying Harden the max vs Lopez.

But that doesn't mean he's a guy you can completely build around. Those are two different questions.

nycericanguy
08-22-2012, 01:08 PM
Chronz already pointed out this wasn't the case. His numbers improved when they weren't on the floor.

If it's so easy as a 2nd/3rd option then why did Bosh's effeciency numbers decline once he got to Miami? Why was Kobe more effecient AFTER Shaq left?

He's also playing against the other teams bench players.

Secondly, Westy & Durant play most of the game, so you're talking about maybe a 3-4 minute sample size here where Harden plays against another teams bench players.

Guys on teams with multiple stars tend to be much more efficient. Look at Durant & Harden, look at BOS's big 3, MIA's big 3.

Harden can no doubt give you 20+ppg, but I think his efficiency would go down alot as the #1 option in ORL with no real star player around him. I think he can be the #1 on a good team, but not on a contending team, unless you surround him with 3 or 4 1b type players like DET had.

NYCEVO8
08-22-2012, 01:08 PM
I think if your rebuilding he'd fit on a team like the cavs and be a good #2 with Irving as #1
That to me makes sense and the cavs should have caps space.

Baller1
08-22-2012, 01:08 PM
Absolutely.

Some of you seem to be overlooking the fact that he scored at a historically efficient rate last season. That's kinda big...

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-22-2012, 01:16 PM
Hell to the ****en no I think James harden is a good 3rd option maybe second but no way first

ACanadian
08-22-2012, 01:18 PM
I'd give him a 4 year 60million or a 5 year 77million. So I think yes

YoungOne
08-22-2012, 01:19 PM
he is very young so this remains to be seen...

krest213
08-22-2012, 01:23 PM
a great role player @ best

seikou8
08-22-2012, 01:24 PM
a great role player @ best

:facepalm:

macc
08-22-2012, 01:30 PM
In ORL's situation I'd prob give him a max, Harden's max will only be something starting at around $13m, that's not too bad. I mean Brook freaking Lopez got a max deal, if I'm ORL i'm much more comfortable paying Harden the max vs Lopez.

But that doesn't mean he's a guy you can completely build around. Those are two different questions.


Exactly, just like you said, Harden is young so is max would only be around that 13mil as you suggested, to me this would be a no brainer, to another Magic fan he would rather pay Ellis or AI over Harden.

macc
08-22-2012, 01:32 PM
Harden can score from anywhere on the court, he has a great 3 ball, he can pass, he can slash, he can draw fouls. He's as complete of a player as you're going to find in a 22 yr old. I think he has a very high ceiling as a player. Anyone who says he's just a role player or only a #3 option simply doesn't know basketball.

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 01:33 PM
Exactly, just like you said, Harden is young so is max would only be around that 13mil as you suggested, to me this would be a no brainer, to another Magic fan he would rather pay Ellis or AI over Harden.

Your reading comprehension is soooooo bad. No other Magic fan in that thread said anything remotely close to that.

macc
08-22-2012, 01:48 PM
Your reading comprehension is soooooo bad. No other Magic fan in that thread said anything remotely close to that.


Lol, what?!?! It was YOU that said you would take Monta Ellis, Eric Gordon, Joe Johnson or AI over Harden. Then I lauged at you because none of them have the upside as Harden. The closest being EG but he doesn't have the all around game Harden does.

EDUTEXANS
08-22-2012, 02:35 PM
Saying that Harden only played against bench players is just stupid. He was the sixth man of the team, he played 31 minutes a game.

Lake_Show2416
08-22-2012, 02:38 PM
i would build around Harden as my #1 if i didnt have a big market team, he has some good attributes to b a #1 option, killer scorer that can get to the line & thats clutch too

nycericanguy
08-22-2012, 02:44 PM
Saying that Harden only played against bench players is just stupid. He was the sixth man of the team, he played 31 minutes a game.

I don't think ANYONE said that.

People like me were just stating that he benefits from playing alongside two stars, and when those two stars are on the bench for a few minutes, Harden is often playing against the other bench players.

Bottom line, its rare to see Harden out there as the #1 option against other teams starters. You can't overlook that.

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 02:54 PM
Exactly, just like you said, Harden is young so is max would only be around that 13mil as you suggested, to me this would be a no brainer, to another Magic fan he would rather pay Ellis or AI over Harden.


Lol, what?!?! It was YOU that said you would take Monta Ellis, Eric Gordon, Joe Johnson or AI over Harden. Then I lauged at you because none of them have the upside as Harden. The closest being EG but he doesn't have the all around game Harden does.

Again, your reading skills are ****ing terrible. I swear you can't be this worthless can you?

I said I WOULD NOT pay Ellis that money. And I said nothing on AI. MBS talked about AI and Ellis. I just said Ellis. And NEITHER of us said anything about paying either of them the max.

Macc, you went for a pretty good poster to complete trash. Reading Comprehension is a good thing. Go back to 2nd grade and pick up on it. Ridiculous

KnicksorBust
08-22-2012, 02:55 PM
And the MAIN reason for that is.....because the opposing teams bench is in. Thank you and good night! :bow:



Ladies and Gentlemen, nobody in basketball history is luckier than James Harden. When Durant and Westbrook are in the games all Harden gets is wide open layups and shots and when they are on the bench, he's going against the absolute worst players in the league and that's where he gets all his iso points. His 17ppg on 66% TS% is basically luck.


He's also playing against the other teams bench players.

Secondly, Westy & Durant play most of the game, so you're talking about maybe a 3-4 minute sample size here where Harden plays against another teams bench players.

Guys on teams with multiple stars tend to be much more efficient. Look at Durant & Harden, look at BOS's big 3, MIA's big 3.

Harden can no doubt give you 20+ppg, but I think his efficiency would go down alot as the #1 option in ORL with no real star player around him. I think he can be the #1 on a good team, but not on a contending team, unless you surround him with 3 or 4 1b type players like DET had.

Every year he's improved his Fg%, 3pt%(minus year 1 to 2), and free throw attempts. His TS% has gone from 55% to 60% to 66% (23rd best in NBA History). Realistically how much would it drop?

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 02:56 PM
I don't think ANYONE said that.

People like me were just stating that he benefits from playing alongside two stars, and when those two stars are on the bench for a few minutes, Harden is often playing against the other bench players.

Bottom line, its rare to see Harden out there as the #1 option against other teams starters. You can't overlook that.

They don't know how to read man. They get so mad they start drooling all over themselves and start typing like crazy people

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 03:02 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, nobody in basketball history is luckier than James Harden. When Durant and Westbrook are in the games all Harden gets is wide open layups and shots and when they are on the bench, he's going against the absolute worst players in the league and that's where he gets all his iso points. His 17ppg on 66% TS% is basically luck.



Every year he's improved his Fg%, 3pt%(minus year 1 to 2), and free throw attempts. His TS% has gone from 55% to 60% to 66% (23rd best in NBA History). Realistically how much would it drop?

So what you're saying is if he takes 10 more shots a game, he's still going to make the same % of them while being doubled teamed? Really?

Some of you people are idiots. Straight up. KOB you and Cronz both said he plays better when Westbrook and Durant aren't in the game...with is a whopping 4 ****ing minutes a game against the other teams bench. Now why you can't understand that is beyond me since I always thought you knew a thing or two about basketball. Harden has the ability to pass the ball, which is why having Durant and Westbrook on the court with him gives him the 1-1 he needs. You can't double down on him or he will pass it to one or the other.

IF HE GOES TO ORLANDO, OR ANYWHERE TO BE THE NUMBER 1 OPTION ODDS ARE HE WON'T HAVE THIS OPTION. MEANING HE WILL BE DOUBLED AND TRIPLED TEAMED AS HE DRIVES. HE WILL NO LONGER BE WAITING ON THE WING WHILE DURANT OR WESTBROOK GO TO THE HOOP FOR THE OPEN SHOT BECAUSE AGAIN, ODDS ARE HE WON'T HAVE THE PLAYERS TO DO THAT FOR HIM. HE WILL BE THE FOCAL POINT OF THE OPPOSING TEAM, RATHER THAN THE 3RD PLAYER THEY HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT.

Hopefully you can read that and get some kind of unsderstanding of that. That is why his efficiency will go down. To think he'll be the same is ****ing ********

Gram
08-22-2012, 03:09 PM
I like Harden as a number two option.

ThuglifeJ
08-22-2012, 03:10 PM
If choking and playing like crap in the Finals gets you a franchise player designation, then yes.

+1

lol

NYKnicks4511
08-22-2012, 03:10 PM
The Magic can get an identical, (emphasis on IDENTICAL) player via the draft in Shabazz Muhammad. 6'6'' SG/SF southpaw who slashes well and can create for himself. They should try to land Josh Smith or Al Jefferson via Free Agency. I'd throw a max deal at either.

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 03:11 PM
I like Harden as a number two option.

Dude why would you say that? He's the best player on the Thunder. He's so efficient. Who cares that the Thunder would rather have Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka instead of Hardin. Who cares if he's the one player they feel is ok to move with out. He's a number 1 option! Best player in the league!

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 03:13 PM
The Magic can get an identical, (emphasis on IDENTICAL) player via the draft in Shabazz Muhammad. 6'6'' SG/SF southpaw who slashes well and can create for himself. They should try to land Josh Smith or Al Jefferson via Free Agency. I'd throw a max deal at either.

Oooooh that'd be friggin' terrible for Orlando to do. They are not in win now mode. They are in build a young team and go for the future mode. Max contracts should be the last thing they offer up right now

Gram
08-22-2012, 03:22 PM
Dude why would you say that? He's the best player on the Thunder. He's so efficient. Who cares that the Thunder would rather have Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka instead of Hardin. Who cares if he's the one player they feel is ok to move with out. He's a number 1 option! Best player in the league!

Oh sorry for offending you! And triple sorry for under rating James HardON.

ManningToTyree
08-22-2012, 03:23 PM
No, not yet at least.

Shlumpledink
08-22-2012, 03:24 PM
You can, but the team wouldn't be great. If put together right they could make the playoffs in the east, but I don't think they'd get very deep

E.O.21
08-22-2012, 03:36 PM
I think he can be on a really deep team. With Kobe declining and wades constant injuries, I see harden becoming the best SG sooner rather then later

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 03:37 PM
Oh sorry for offending you! And triple sorry for under rating James HardON.

Ok, thats better

Puck017
08-22-2012, 03:39 PM
How can people even debate this the answer is an obvious yes. Any team that would bring him in as a #1 option obviously needs some help and I believe he can improve those teams quite a bit and could lead them to be a title contender. Just because he's a #1 option on a team doesn't mean he has to the best player on the team. While its an unlikely situation its hardly unfeasible especially for a SG.

dtmagnet
08-22-2012, 03:50 PM
As a number one scorer? I say yes definitely.

KnicksorBust
08-22-2012, 06:45 PM
So what you're saying is if he takes 10 more shots a game, he's still going to make the same % of them while being doubled teamed? Really?

Some of you people are idiots. Straight up. KOB you and Cronz both said he plays better when Westbrook and Durant aren't in the game...with is a whopping 4 ****ing minutes a game against the other teams bench. Now why you can't understand that is beyond me since I always thought you knew a thing or two about basketball. Harden has the ability to pass the ball, which is why having Durant and Westbrook on the court with him gives him the 1-1 he needs. You can't double down on him or he will pass it to one or the other.

IF HE GOES TO ORLANDO, OR ANYWHERE TO BE THE NUMBER 1 OPTION ODDS ARE HE WON'T HAVE THIS OPTION. MEANING HE WILL BE DOUBLED AND TRIPLED TEAMED AS HE DRIVES. HE WILL NO LONGER BE WAITING ON THE WING WHILE DURANT OR WESTBROOK GO TO THE HOOP FOR THE OPEN SHOT BECAUSE AGAIN, ODDS ARE HE WON'T HAVE THE PLAYERS TO DO THAT FOR HIM. HE WILL BE THE FOCAL POINT OF THE OPPOSING TEAM, RATHER THAN THE 3RD PLAYER THEY HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT.

Hopefully you can read that and get some kind of unsderstanding of that. That is why his efficiency will go down. To think he'll be the same is ****ing ********

Alright I'm only going to respond to you once more because this conversation has ran it's course and now you're baiting me. I've already had one deleted post this year... Can you imagine if I actually got banned???? :laugh:

Your argument:
Being 3rd option allowed him to get more open looks and wide open shots
When they ran their offense through Harden, it was against bench players which makes scoring easier.

Your conclusion:
This makes his effeciency high.

My argument:
He is a remarkably versatile scorer (was a top 100 player in iso, spot-up, pnr, cut, hand-off, transition, etc. )
His effeciency (66 TS% for 17ppg) was legendary for a ball-handling guard.

My conclusion:
Any drop off in effeciency (from extra defensive attention) would still keep him among the most effecient players in the league because he's such a talented scorer. Therefore, you could build around Harden as a #1 option.

Agree to disagree. But I'm right.

LJEATON26
08-22-2012, 09:42 PM
You can definately build around him. He can score lights out, decent rebounder, above average passer and a gym rat just like Durant and Westbrook. But I'd much rather continue seeing him as the Thunders 3rd all star.

GoPacers33
08-22-2012, 10:17 PM
I think so

Trueblue2
08-22-2012, 10:22 PM
I can see a team being built around him, but you'd need a good supporting cast and a 2nd option that is equally as talented (preferably a big).

NYKnicks4511
08-22-2012, 10:42 PM
Oooooh that'd be friggin' terrible for Orlando to do. They are not in win now mode. They are in build a young team and go for the future mode. Max contracts should be the last thing they offer up right now

Smith is 26 and Jefferson is 27. They both will have at least 4-5 years of good production in my opinion at minimum (Jefferson isn't really reliant on his athleticism). Right now nobody wants to go to Orlando. With a dynamic young scorer a la Muhammad and a guy like Josh Smith you can immediately turn around your franchise. The key thing is that the odds of a player signing there right now are slim, so you'd have to shed out a max deal. Hey, at least you're making an effort to appease the fans while improving your roster. The 2014 draft isn't very deep by the looks of it, so if you have room to make immediate improvements I say you go for it. They could probably grab a 6-8 seed with a combo of Shabazz and Jefferson/Smith

$GangGr33n$
08-22-2012, 11:01 PM
One could say that the sixers biggest criticism over the past 3 years has been building around Iggy when he just is not a good enough centerpiece.

well then my answer would be no. i dont see Harden ever being better than Iggy

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 11:11 PM
Smith is 26 and Jefferson is 27. They both will have at least 4-5 years of good production in my opinion at minimum (Jefferson isn't really reliant on his athleticism). Right now nobody wants to go to Orlando. With a dynamic young scorer a la Muhammad and a guy like Josh Smith you can immediately turn around your franchise. The key thing is that the odds of a player signing there right now are slim, so you'd have to shed out a max deal. Hey, at least you're making an effort to appease the fans while improving your roster. The 2014 draft isn't very deep by the looks of it, so if you have room to make immediate improvements I say you go for it. They could probably grab a 6-8 seed with a combo of Shabazz and Jefferson/Smith

But why rebuild to be the 6-8 seed? That's like giving up and saying **** it, is it not?

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 11:19 PM
Alright I'm only going to respond to you once more because this conversation has ran it's course and now you're baiting me. I've already had one deleted post this year... Can you imagine if I actually got banned???? :laugh:

Your argument:
Being 3rd option allowed him to get more open looks and wide open shots
When they ran their offense through Harden, it was against bench players which makes scoring easier.

Your conclusion:
This makes his effeciency high.

My argument:
He is a remarkably versatile scorer (was a top 100 player in iso, spot-up, pnr, cut, hand-off, transition, etc. )
His effeciency (66 TS% for 17ppg) was legendary for a ball-handling guard.

My conclusion:
Any drop off in effeciency (from extra defensive attention) would still keep him among the most effecient players in the league because he's such a talented scorer. Therefore, you could build around Harden as a #1 option.

Agree to disagree. But I'm right.

What makes you right? He is the 3rd best player on a team. Hell, it could be argued that Ibaka is better on defense than Harden is on offense (or more important to say the least).

Harden has all the tools. I will give him that. But I don't see him having the attitude to be the guy. He had a great season. No doubt. But I will be willing to bet he would not be around 60% TS on a team with out Durant and Westy. I would see him being around 55% or lower. Which is still pretty damn decent. But then again, he's not going to have Durant or Westy to dish the ball to. He's going to have to be THE Man. He can't sit in the corner while Westbrook dribbles up the court, drives the lane and finds him in the corner, or same thing with Durant. He's going to have to have the ball in his hands, with NO ONE to defer to, and I don't see him being able to do that. I will Paypal you 20 bucks if he has a TS about 62% next year

He won't come close to this year ever again

tredigs
08-22-2012, 11:32 PM
What makes you right? He is the 3rd best player on a team. Hell, it could be argued that Ibaka is better on defense than Harden is on offense (or more important to say the least).

Harden has all the tools. I will give him that. But I don't see him having the attitude to be the guy. He had a great season. No doubt. But I will be willing to bet he would not be around 60% TS on a team with out Durant and Westy. I would see him being around 55% or lower. Which is still pretty damn decent. But then again, he's not going to have Durant or Westy to dish the ball to. He's going to have to be THE Man. He can't sit in the corner while Westbrook dribbles up the court, drives the lane and finds him in the corner, or same thing with Durant. He's going to have to have the ball in his hands, with NO ONE to defer to, and I don't see him being able to do that. I will Paypal you 20 bucks if he has a TS about 62% next year

He won't come close to this year ever again

There's actually an overwhelming amount of historical evidence that goes against this theory. And common sense, if you really think about it. Hell, given the amount his USG% / Free throw attempts would go up, there's a decent chance his TS% would actually rise as a #1 option. The potential dip in FG% (which I don't think would be significant) likely wouldn't outweigh the increased TS% points he'd gain from increased attempts of his elite FT shooting.

rapjuicer06
08-22-2012, 11:42 PM
There's actually an overwhelming amount of historical evidence that goes against this theory. And common sense, if you really think about it. Hell, given the amount his USG% / Free throw attempts would go up, there's a decent chance his TS% would actually rise as a #1 option. The potential dip in FG% (which I don't think would be significant) likely wouldn't outweigh the increased TS% points he'd gain from increased attempts of his elite FT shooting.

I will bet you as well then. He shot lights out this year. No way he does it again next year. He's not a better shooter than Ray Allen is...

ThuglifeJ
08-22-2012, 11:53 PM
i swear PSD sees one general opinion and just rides with it in the comment section.

NO he cannot be a NUMBER 1 OPTION YOU BUILD AROUND. are you serious?

hes a ****ing role player and clearly overrated. He made the all star team and olypmic team cuz the positions have all declined in talent. every position except PG and kind of PF have declined significantly this new era.

Hes not actually all that good at all hes really effeicient for the shots he gets which makes him a GREAT ROLE player. a great one. but if he took anymore shots hed ****ing suck. Ppl thought the same of like Courtney Lee and Terrance williams ppl like that who had just as much talent as role players. they get a shot at being #1 or #2 options even and they blow.

Hardens no different story just cuz hes on the babied *** Thunder

tredigs
08-23-2012, 12:00 AM
I will bet you as well then. He shot lights out this year. No way he does it again next year. He's not a better shooter than Ray Allen is...

No point in betting on it - he won't be leaving OKC to be a #1 any time soon.

And no, he's not a better shooter than Ray - but he is a more efficient scorer than Ray is. He's both better at getting to the rim and better at drawing contact than Ray has ever been (and is also a great FT/3pt shooter - that's not a fluke over the course of a year+ - it's a young guys work ethic paying off). Hence a TS% higher than Ray has ever sniffed (despite Ray being in a similar role for multiple years).

Eagles4Lyfe
08-23-2012, 12:04 AM
Again PSD proving how overrated players can be.

He can be a solid number 2 just like a Manu or Jet were/are but being THE franchise player, he hasn't shown me much to prove he can do it.

ThuglifeJ
08-23-2012, 12:08 AM
Again PSD proving how overrated players can be.

He can be a solid number 2 just like a Manu or Jet were/are but being THE franchise player, he hasn't shown me much to prove he can do it.

he CAN be a solid number 2 like Manu or Jet at his CIELING

no way is he a ****ing Manu Ginobli. no way

stop ppl please

KnicksorBust
08-23-2012, 07:54 AM
There's actually an overwhelming amount of historical evidence that goes against this theory. And common sense, if you really think about it. Hell, given the amount his USG% / Free throw attempts would go up, there's a decent chance his TS% would actually rise as a #1 option. The potential dip in FG% (which I don't think would be significant) likely wouldn't outweigh the increased TS% points he'd gain from increased attempts of his elite FT shooting.

Theoretically, we could think this but realistically last season was too amazing to duplicate. Even I expect a dip this year. He'll be closer to 60% TS% next season. Although even if he dropped to 58-60 range he'd be one of the most effecient #1 options in the league. What is absurd to me is that people actually think he'd drop 10-12% points. That's abnormal drop that just doesn't happen. Especially for a player who hasn't even reached his prime yet.

gilly
08-23-2012, 07:57 AM
He'd be such a good fit in Philly alongside Bynum as a #2.

nycericanguy
08-23-2012, 08:46 AM
People get carried away with efficiency, efficiency does not necessarily translate over volume. Nor does it mean a guy is a #1 option.

I mean Gallinairi is a very efficient SF, and gets to the FT line alot like Harden does. But does that mean he can be the #1 option on a team? I doubt it. You can't just say "well give him twice the shots and he'll score more". The fact is niether Gallo or Harden have averaged more than 16ppg in their combined 7 seasons.

They are low volume efficient scorers, but its a huge jump to be a #1 option on a team.

Burgo
08-23-2012, 01:48 PM
Nah, he's a number 2 option. His numbers are made more impressive due to KD and RW drawing so much attention when the Thunder have the pill.

KnicksorBust
08-23-2012, 02:04 PM
People get carried away with efficiency, efficiency does not necessarily translate over volume. Nor does it mean a guy is a #1 option.

I mean Gallinairi is a very efficient SF, and gets to the FT line alot like Harden does. But does that mean he can be the #1 option on a team? I doubt it. You can't just say "well give him twice the shots and he'll score more". The fact is niether Gallo or Harden have averaged more than 16ppg in their combined 7 seasons.

They are low volume efficient scorers, but its a huge jump to be a #1 option on a team.

What a weak comparison. First of all, statistically Gallo has never scored as much as Harden and his TS% was significantly lower than Harden's last season. Second, Gallo does not have a complete offensive game like Harden. He's much worse as a ball handler and not even close as a facilitator. This is what makes Harden an even more convincing number 1 option. He's built in the same Kobe-Wade-Roy mold where he can get his teammates involved if he's facing double/triple teams.

ChiSox219
08-23-2012, 02:23 PM
Nah, he's a number 2 option. His numbers are made more impressive due to KD and RW drawing so much attention when the Thunder have the pill.

Harden with KD:
11.3 Points Per 36 Minutes
8.9 FGA per 36
41% FG
28% 3P
3.3 FTA per 36
2.5 AST per 36

Harden without KD:
24.6 Points Per 36
15.1 FGA Per 36
46% FG
43% 3P
9.5 FTA Per 36
3.6 AST per 36


edit: above is from '10-11

here's '11-12: http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#James-Harden-vs-Kevin-Durant|201935,201142;year=201112;season=r

31.2 points per 36, 53% FG, 12.5 FTA :speechless:

With Westbrook on the bench, Harden's TS% raises to .686

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#James-Harden-vs-Russell-Westbrook|201935,201566;year=201112;season=r

futureman
08-23-2012, 02:27 PM
I don't see him as a #1 option but he's worth the Max. The Jazz are one of the teams that can give that to him next summer.

RealLiveBear
08-23-2012, 03:05 PM
A little later down the road I could see it, Kinda like Wade and the heat in 2006 if he was paired with a All Star C and a solid team why not?

RealLiveBear
08-23-2012, 03:07 PM
Harden with KD:
11.3 Points Per 36 Minutes
8.9 FGA per 36
41% FG
28% 3P
3.3 FTA per 36
2.5 AST per 36

Harden without KD:
24.6 Points Per 36
15.1 FGA Per 36
46% FG
43% 3P
9.5 FTA Per 36
3.6 AST per 36


edit: above is from '10-11

here's '11-12: http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#James-Harden-vs-Kevin-Durant|201935,201142;year=201112;season=r

31.2 points per 36, 53% FG, 12.5 FTA :speechless:

With Westbrook on the bench, Harden's TS% raises to .686

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#James-Harden-vs-Russell-Westbrook|201935,201566;year=201112;season=r

Those are some impressive stats! Fear the beard.

nycericanguy
08-24-2012, 11:19 AM
What a weak comparison. First of all, statistically Gallo has never scored as much as Harden and his TS% was significantly lower than Harden's last season. Second, Gallo does not have a complete offensive game like Harden. He's much worse as a ball handler and not even close as a facilitator. This is what makes Harden an even more convincing number 1 option. He's built in the same Kobe-Wade-Roy mold where he can get his teammates involved if he's facing double/triple teams.

You're nitpicking, I wasn't talking about facilitating, no one is, we're talking about SCORING.

Gallo career - 14.0ppg

Harden - 12.7ppg

Gallo career TS% (since u seem to obsess over this one stat) - .582

Harden career TS% - .605

They are very similar. Would you trust Gallo as the #1 option on a team to build around just because he's efficient and has a high TS%?

KnicksorBust
08-24-2012, 12:27 PM
You're nitpicking, I wasn't talking about facilitating, no one is, we're talking about SCORING.

Gallo career - 14.0ppg

Harden - 12.7ppg

Gallo career TS% (since u seem to obsess over this one stat) - .582

Harden career TS% - .605

They are very similar. Would you trust Gallo as the #1 option on a team to build around just because he's efficient and has a high TS%?

You don't think being a good facilitator helps make someone a quality #1 option? MJ-Kobe-LeBron-Wade-etc. are/were that much more productive as go-to players because they also create for their teammates and find open shooters. How is that not relevant to the discussion? That's why your selection of Gallo was a poor choice.

Also if I'm nit-picking then you're cherry-picking statistics. :) Why use career numbers? Do you really think what Harden did age 20 really has any relevance at this point? He's increased his statistics and effeciency numbers every season and hasn't even reached his prime yet. You're using his seasons at 20-21 years old to pull his numbers back down to Gallo's because last season they don't compare.

To answer your question, no I wouldn't trust Gallo to be a #1 option but he's not as talented as James Harden so that point is moot.

nycericanguy
08-24-2012, 01:15 PM
You don't think being a good facilitator helps make someone a quality #1 option? MJ-Kobe-LeBron-Wade-etc. are/were that much more productive as go-to players because they also create for their teammates and find open shooters. How is that not relevant to the discussion? That's why your selection of Gallo was a poor choice.

Also if I'm nit-picking then you're cherry-picking statistics. :) Why use career numbers? Do you really think what Harden did age 20 really has any relevance at this point? He's increased his statistics and effeciency numbers every season and hasn't even reached his prime yet. You're using his seasons at 20-21 years old to pull his numbers back down to Gallo's because last season they don't compare.

To answer your question, no I wouldn't trust Gallo to be a #1 option but he's not as talented as James Harden so that point is moot.

No I'm not, Gallo played 43 games last year and was injured alot. It would be silly to make the comparison based off just 43 games so I did it career wise.

They are both about the same age, and Gallo missed his rookie year, so how is it not a fair comp if they have both been in the league the same amount of years and are both the same age?

My main point is Gallo is not very far below Harden in terms of an "efficient scorer". And Gallo is a good facilitator anyway, obviously Harden will have a higher assist total because he plays at guard and has the ball in his hands more.

Finally you saying that Gallo doesn't have a complete offensive game? Based on what? He can shoot, post, drive, get to the FT line and has a good midrange game and 3 pt range. He might not be GREAT at everything, but he's very complete

b@llhog24
08-24-2012, 02:05 PM
You're nitpicking, I wasn't talking about facilitating, no one is, we're talking about SCORING.

Gallo career - 14.0ppg

Harden - 12.7ppg

Gallo career TS% (since u seem to obsess over this one stat) - .582

Harden career TS% - .605

They are very similar. Would you trust Gallo as the #1 option on a team to build around just because he's efficient and has a high TS%?

You don't think being a good facilitator helps make someone a quality #1 option? MJ-Kobe-LeBron-Wade-etc. are/were that much more productive as go-to players because they also create for their teammates and find open shooters. How is that not relevant to the discussion? That's why your selection of Gallo was a poor choice.

Also if I'm nit-picking then you're cherry-picking statistics. :) Why use career numbers? Do you really think what Harden did age 20 really has any relevance at this point? He's increased his statistics and effeciency numbers every season and hasn't even reached his prime yet. You're using his seasons at 20-21 years old to pull his numbers back down to Gallo's because last season they don't compare.

To answer your question, no I wouldn't trust Gallo to be a #1 option but he's not as talented as James Harden so that point is moot.

:burn:

b@llhog24
08-24-2012, 02:07 PM
Gallo never struck me as the type of player who would perform better with a higher usage rate like how I imagine Harden would.

juster1028
08-24-2012, 02:07 PM
I do not thuink so:mad:. Lebron jame is way much better i wood even pic antonio carmine to go. if u can saey jamer harden beter thne lebron i can sey carmine beter than jamer.

facts r factys:mad::cry:

KnicksorBust
08-24-2012, 03:14 PM
No I'm not, Gallo played 43 games last year and was injured alot. It would be silly to make the comparison based off just 43 games so I did it career wise.

They are both about the same age, and Gallo missed his rookie year, so how is it not a fair comp if they have both been in the league the same amount of years and are both the same age?

My main point is Gallo is not very far below Harden in terms of an "efficient scorer". And Gallo is a good facilitator anyway, obviously Harden will have a higher assist total because he plays at guard and has the ball in his hands more.

Finally you saying that Gallo doesn't have a complete offensive game? Based on what? He can shoot, post, drive, get to the FT line and has a good midrange game and 3 pt range. He might not be GREAT at everything, but he's very complete

I honestly am a little surprised you haven't given up on this Gallinari comparison. It just seems like such a stretch to me for the reasons I've already mentioned. They are completely different players, playing different positions, and serving different roles on their teams. In addition, Gallinari doesn't stack up to what Harden did last season. This is part of the reason why using career numbers doesn't make sense. If you were to average a player's first 3 seasons, that's a terrible way to predict their 4th season. Harden's numbers have consistently increased (as has his effeciency) every year. Last season is more an indication of what he's capable of than his rookie year when he was 20 years old. That is a thing of the past at this point.

Let's drop Gallo and get back to the real discussion. The brunt of the arguments against Harden stems from the fact that he comes off the bench and has Durant and Westbrook as teammates to make his role easier. This creates this barrier where because he's their 3rd leading scoring it seems almost impossible for him to sell himself as a leader. My question for you, or anybody else who believes that he can't be a #1 option, what is it about his game that makes you think he can't handle it? What would he have to do to prove he can be a #1 option?

Illa215
08-24-2012, 03:16 PM
I think he'd be a perfect fit on the Sixers with Bynum.

The money would be tight but it's do-able.

Lucky Junior
08-24-2012, 03:28 PM
I don't even see him as being a number 2 on a good team. If its a contender he's the 3rd best player at best (he's 4th now). If its a bad team he's the number 2 scoring a lot of points on a bad shooting percentage. If he's the number one, you're in the lottery.

Never confuse what a guy can do when no one is paying attention to him to what he'll be like going against constant double teams. And if any team is dumb enough to max him out, they should have to give away season tickets as an apology to their fan base.

Lucky Junior
08-24-2012, 03:32 PM
Yes, here is a mock team where he is the number 1 option on the floor with some future FAs to add around him.

pg: Brandon Jennings / Ty Lawson
sg: James Harden
sf: Kawhi Leonard/ Derrick Williams
pf:Josh Smith
c: Al jefferson

Well balanced team with defenders and scorers.

You think Harden is better than Jennings, Smith, and Jefferson??? You just lost ALL credibility.

StarvingKnick22
08-24-2012, 05:47 PM
yeah in about 4-7 years but now is a little far fetched

Baller1
08-24-2012, 06:00 PM
You think Harden is better than Jennings, Smith, and Jefferson??? You just lost ALL credibility.

Please tell me you're kidding.

Harden is easily the best of those 4, EASILY.

KnickaBocka.44
08-24-2012, 06:03 PM
You think Harden is better than Jennings, Smith, and Jefferson??? You just lost ALL credibility.

Harden is definitely the best offensive player out of that group.

juggla53
08-24-2012, 06:07 PM
Chauncey billups was the go to guy for a championship pistons squad so yes harden can be too, it just all depends on the type of talent around him

b@llhog24
08-24-2012, 06:36 PM
You think Harden is better than Jennings, Smith, and Jefferson??? You just lost ALL credibility.

:facepalm:

#Shumpert Up
08-24-2012, 08:22 PM
i see him more as an iggy type player. a 1b

NYKnicks4511
08-24-2012, 11:29 PM
Westbrook and Durant command at least 3 defenders when they're in the game: two on-ball defenders and a big waiting to close out on a rotation/ trap.

Because Brooks is a good coach and knows this, he spaces Harden out to the opposite side of RW and KD so he takes advantage of late rotations often when he slashes to the hoop.

He's efficient, sure, but as far as bring a number one option I just don't see it. His shooting off the dribble is non-existent from what I witnessed in the playoffs. OKC will groom Perry Jones to take his place this year, and I think it will speak volumes regarding Harden's game (relative to the attention Durant and Westbrook take off of him) if Jones puts up 15 ppg after Harden leaves.

Sixerlover
08-24-2012, 11:31 PM
I don't think you can have a championship team with Harden as the focal offensive option. But obviously it depends on the team that is built around him

seikou8
08-25-2012, 12:10 AM
You think Harden is better than Jennings, Smith, and Jefferson??? You just lost ALL credibility.

:facepalm:

C-Style
08-25-2012, 12:55 AM
heck no!

b@llhog24
08-25-2012, 01:18 AM
Westbrook and Durant command at least 3 defenders when they're in the game: two on-ball defenders and a big waiting to close out on a rotation/ trap.

Because Brooks is a good coach and knows this, he spaces Harden out to the opposite side of RW and KD so he takes advantage of late rotations often when he slashes to the hoop.

He's efficient, sure, but as far as bring a number one option I just don't see it. His shooting off the dribble is non-existent from what I witnessed in the playoffs. OKC will groom Perry Jones to take his place this year, and I think it will speak volumes regarding Harden's game (relative to the attention Durant and Westbrook take off of him) if Jones puts up 15 ppg after Harden leaves.

1) Scott Brooks isn't a good coach.
2) That doesn't explain why Harden is ranked 7th in isolation, 9th in PNR.
3) Okc offense goes from pedestrian to elite when Harden is on the floor.

Baller1
08-25-2012, 05:29 AM
1) Scott Brooks isn't a good coach.
2) That doesn't explain why Harden is ranked 7th in isolation, 9th in PNR.
3) Okc offense goes from pedestrian to elite when Harden is on the floor.

Saving me time, thank you.

Sadds The Gr8
08-25-2012, 11:38 AM
No. He's a #2 imo.

b@llhog24
08-25-2012, 01:30 PM
Saving me time, thank you.

It's cool bro. :hi5:

kblo247
08-25-2012, 02:40 PM
No. He can't defend really as Kobe and be it Wade or Bron got by him easy in one on one scenarios. He can't go right either, as Kobe showed when he held him in the 30s and the Heat replicated by sitting on his left. His biggest attributes are open shooting and the ability to flop his way into fouls.

He's a second, most likely third guy on any competing team ala Ray Allen and shouldn't be maxed by anyone.

The playoffs came and he got exposed versus LA and Miami because he wasn't out there playing primary bench players anymore and lighting them up, as starters were matched up with him.

JordansBulls
08-25-2012, 04:48 PM
Harden is a good 2nd option.

b@llhog24
08-25-2012, 08:17 PM
Harden is a good 2nd option.

How so?

b@llhog24
08-25-2012, 08:23 PM
No. He can't defend really as Kobe and be it Wade or Bron got by him easy in one on one scenarios. He can't go right either, as Kobe showed when he held him in the 30s and the Heat replicated by sitting on his left. His biggest attributes are open shooting and the ability to flop his way into fouls.


Aren't those players superstars for a reason? You actually expect Harden to be able to defend them on single coverage?


He's a second, most likely third guy on any competing team ala Ray Allen and shouldn't be maxed by anyone

I'm not so sure he's worth the max either but damn near close to it.


The playoffs came and he got exposed versus LA and Miami because he wasn't out there playing primary bench players anymore and lighting them up, as starters were matched up with him.

He was having a great playoff run, he just choked in the finals which ended up making it simply a good playoff run. I don't think that it's all that damning for a 22 year old playing against the best perimeter defensive team in the league.

Blazers#1Fan
08-25-2012, 09:28 PM
No he's a great player a la Scottie Pippen

Smh he should never br compared to pippen maybe manu


I say no but he can be rip hamilton

If harden was on my blazers he'd fit perfect 2ndA/2ndB option but first no

Leonard
Aldridge
Batum
Harden/Matthews
Lillard

NYKnicks4511
08-26-2012, 01:22 AM
1) Scott Brooks isn't a good coach.
2) That doesn't explain why Harden is ranked 7th in isolation, 9th in PNR.
3) Okc offense goes from pedestrian to elite when Harden is on the floor.

1.) That's ignorant. He guided an extremely young team (bar Fisher) to the NBA Finals. He wasn't able to make adjustments in the Finals some may argue, sure, but how well did Spo adjust against Dallas? Plus, LeBron Flocka James and the Heat were simply the better team and that's the bottom line. Brooks was a coach of the year for a reason. Take that for what it's worth to you, but many coaches have the talent but can't put together a winning formula/system like the Thunder have and Brooks deserves credit as a good coach.

2.) You presented two metrics that support my argument. What I'm trying to convey, is that if so much attention is on RW and KD, how would it not benefit James Harden when all three are on the floor? This is applicable especially in isolation situations. I never said Harden wasn't a great playmaker - but that you have to take his success with a grain of salt (in this case the FACT that his two superstar teammates attract more attention from defenders than he does. Because one side of the floor is almost always open when Westbrook and Durant are on the same side of the floor, Harden has less resistance (due to often having the team's 2nd/3rd best perimeter defender guarding him, and 1 less big man to face due to a slow rotation). The same argument can be made for PNR, and again nobody is denying that he is a good playmaker, but this is the way I see it.

3.) Exhibit A: Miami Heat vs. Indiana Pacers. Bosh goes down. Bosh is very efficient in the Heat offense, as Harden is with OKC. Heat struggle and their offense becomes stagnant, and to use your term, 'pedestrian.' Bosh is a good player, but he becomes even better when James and Wade are on the floor to create open shots and lanes for him. I believe that this is analogous to OKC's situation with Harden; they get better with him on the floor because he's a borderline great player reaping the benefits of playing with two bona fide superstars.

The goods
08-26-2012, 01:41 AM
Maybe a number 2 option until proven otherwise, he let me down in the finals so I'm done talking about his potential until he shows me what he can really.

AKA TheMamba
08-26-2012, 02:12 AM
The finals proved that he can be stopped, I mean of course our lakers did nothing but as a second or third option he will excel quicker into an all around borderline all star guard.

b@llhog24
08-26-2012, 03:01 AM
1.) That's ignorant. He guided an extremely young team (bar Fisher) to the NBA Finals. He wasn't able to make adjustments in the Finals some may argue, sure, but how well did Spo adjust against Dallas? Plus, LeBron Flocka James and the Heat were simply the better team and that's the bottom line. Brooks was a coach of the year for a reason. Take that for what it's worth to you, but many coaches have the talent but can't put together a winning formula/system like the Thunder have and Brooks deserves credit as a good coach.

It's a plethora of reasons why he isn't a good coach, (****** rotations, sub par in the X's and O's, the Thunder still don't have an offensive system since his arrival; it's basically just let Durant, Westbrook and Harden create something out of nothing) at least Spo is a defensive ace, Brooks gets by off of ego management, and even in that aspect he's overrated because can't motivate his players like other players coaches, Doc, Pop, Phil. He's average at best overall, and certainly out of the top 10.


2.) You presented two metrics that support my argument. What I'm trying to convey, is that if so much attention is on RW and KD, how would it not benefit James Harden when all three are on the floor? This is applicable especially in isolation situations. I never said Harden wasn't a great playmaker - but that you have to take his success with a grain of salt (in this case the FACT that his two superstar teammates attract more attention from defenders than he does. Because one side of the floor is almost always open when Westbrook and Durant are on the same side of the floor, Harden has less resistance (due to often having the team's 2nd/3rd best perimeter defender guarding him, and 1 less big man to face due to a slow rotation). The same argument can be made for PNR, and again nobody is denying that he is a good playmaker, but this is the way I see it.

So being the 7th ranked player in isolation and the 9th best ball-handler in the PNR two skills which showcases just how good he is with the ball in his hands strengthens your point that Harden's efficiency is a product of playing with Durant and Westbrook? :laugh2: Basketball is a team game obviously his teammates have SOME effect on his overall efficiency, but when that man is efficient in EVERY form of scoring/play-making it kind of says something about that player. If Harden became a number one option his efficiency should/would go down with the uptick in usage, the point is he'll still be pretty ****ing efficient with an increased usage rate.


3.) Exhibit A: Miami Heat vs. Indiana Pacers. Bosh goes down. Bosh is very efficient in the Heat offense, as Harden is with OKC. Heat struggle and their offense becomes stagnant, and to use your term, 'pedestrian.' Bosh is a good player, but he becomes even better when James and Wade are on the floor to create open shots and lanes for him. I believe that this is analogous to OKC's situation with Harden; they get better with him on the floor because he's a borderline great player reaping the benefits of playing with two bona fide superstars.

Actually Bosh plays significantly better when he's either the #1 or #2 option, when both LeBron and Wade are on the floor he becomes an afterthought in the offense and is relegated to mid-range jump-shots, cuts, and bailouts. There is more evidence that Durant and Westbrook actually holds back Harden's production while he just ends up increasing theirs. Since you like Scott Brooks so much he continually says that Harden is the teams best play-maker, and that when he's inserted in the game he just settles the offense. It's also worth noting that Harden outproduces Bosh as a third option pretty handily.

kblo247
08-26-2012, 03:52 AM
Aren't those players superstars for a reason? You actually expect Harden to be able to defend them on single coverage?
I expect him to at least not be blown by over and over and have to be benched when his team needs the offense. He was a liability vs Kobe and Miami. Would have been vs SA if Manu was close to Manu too



I'm not so sure he's worth the max either but damn near close to it.What do you quantify as close?




He was having a great playoff run, he just choked in the finals which ended up making it simply a good playoff run. I don't think that it's all that damning for a 22 year old playing against the best perimeter defensive team in the league.

Playoffs - LA - 35.8%fg, 25% threes, 4.6rebs, 2.2asts, and 16ppg

He was bad versus LA whenever adobe was on him. Matt just stupidly put him on the line when Kobe sat due to the flopping, but he wasn't good by any stretch inthe second round either. His playoffs were okay versus other SG's.

He was great or damn good vs Dallas and SA because Jack and Marion were busy

b@llhog24
08-26-2012, 04:28 AM
I expect him to at least not be blown by over and over and have to be benched when his team needs the offense. He was a liability vs Kobe and Miami. Would have been vs SA if Manu was close to Manu too

I'll be the first one to say he's not a great defender, he actually regressed on D last year. In his rookie and sophomore year he was a promising defender though. So maybe that thread continues? I expect him to be slightly above average next year.


What do you quantify as close?

He's worth about 12-13 million imo.


Playoffs - LA - 35.8%fg, 25% threes, 4.6rebs, 2.2asts, and 16ppg

He was bad versus LA whenever adobe was on him. Matt just stupidly put him on the line when Kobe sat due to the flopping, but he wasn't good by any stretch inthe second round either. His playoffs were okay versus other SG's.

He was great or damn good vs Dallas and SA because Jack and Marion were busy

Flooping? Aren't you a big DFish fan? Its actually a pretty heady thing to do, i don't like to see it personally but it obviously has it's benefits. Whatever it takes to win right? Btw do you have the numbers that he put up vs each defender?

SugeKnight
08-26-2012, 04:32 AM
No.

NYKnicks4511
08-26-2012, 12:32 PM
It's a plethora of reasons why he isn't a good coach, (****** rotations, sub par in the X's and O's, the Thunder still don't have an offensive system since his arrival; it's basically just let Durant, Westbrook and Harden create something out of nothing) at least Spo is a defensive ace, Brooks gets by off of ego management, and even in that aspect he's overrated because can't motivate his players like other players coaches, Doc, Pop, Phil. He's average at best overall, and certainly out of the top 10.



So being the 7th ranked player in isolation and the 9th best ball-handler in the PNR two skills which showcases just how good he is with the ball in his hands strengthens your point that Harden's efficiency is a product of playing with Durant and Westbrook? :laugh2: Basketball is a team game obviously his teammates have SOME effect on his overall efficiency, but when that man is efficient in EVERY form of scoring/play-making it kind of says something about that player. If Harden became a number one option his efficiency should/would go down with the uptick in usage, the point is he'll still be pretty ****ing efficient with an increased usage rate.



Actually Bosh plays significantly better when he's either the #1 or #2 option, when both LeBron and Wade are on the floor he becomes an afterthought in the offense and is relegated to mid-range jump-shots, cuts, and bailouts. There is more evidence that Durant and Westbrook actually holds back Harden's production while he just ends up increasing theirs. Since you like Scott Brooks so much he continually says that Harden is the teams best play-maker, and that when he's inserted in the game he just settles the offense. It's also worth noting that Harden outproduces Bosh as a third option pretty handily.

I am very leery of what ESPN shows 'in the huddle', you do know that it's not all that they talk about right? They would be insane not to have a game plan offensively and defensively, and I think you'd be even more naive not to believe that Brooks got his team to the finals by deflating egos alone (which is no easy task for a young squad as it is).

In regard to the bold, yes. If Harden didn't play with Durant and Westbrook then sure his points per game/ assists per game might rise, but his efficiency/ iso ratings and possibly PNR would take a major hit. This would be a result of him facing the opposing team's #1 defender at least, and double teams (a la KD and RW) at most. Your points aren't completely without merit, but I disagree that Harden 'makes' the Thunder into an elite offensive team; rather it's a symbiotic relationship because Harden simply isn't as versatile a scorer as his two teammates and they make the game easier for him.

I disagree with your Bosh assessment from a team perspective (that's what we're talking about here right?). Bosh could drop 20-25 ppg with great efficiency as the first option as you've seen him do in Toronto. But after witnessing how stagnant the Heat offense became in the Indy series without him as a third option I don't think you can argue that his impact is more pronounced as a third option. I mean, as you said, look at all the WIDE open jumpers he sees, you think he'd be getting the same looks if Wade and LBJ weren't kicking it out to him? Ask any Heat fan, I guess. Bottom line, I think Harden benefits in the same way. We'll agree to disagree, but I think I'm right.

Baller1
08-26-2012, 12:37 PM
1.) That's ignorant. He guided an extremely young team (bar Fisher) to the NBA Finals. He wasn't able to make adjustments in the Finals some may argue, sure, but how well did Spo adjust against Dallas? Plus, LeBron Flocka James and the Heat were simply the better team and that's the bottom line. Brooks was a coach of the year for a reason. Take that for what it's worth to you, but many coaches have the talent but can't put together a winning formula/system like the Thunder have and Brooks deserves credit as a good coach.

2.) You presented two metrics that support my argument. What I'm trying to convey, is that if so much attention is on RW and KD, how would it not benefit James Harden when all three are on the floor? This is applicable especially in isolation situations. I never said Harden wasn't a great playmaker - but that you have to take his success with a grain of salt (in this case the FACT that his two superstar teammates attract more attention from defenders than he does. Because one side of the floor is almost always open when Westbrook and Durant are on the same side of the floor, Harden has less resistance (due to often having the team's 2nd/3rd best perimeter defender guarding him, and 1 less big man to face due to a slow rotation). The same argument can be made for PNR, and again nobody is denying that he is a good playmaker, but this is the way I see it.

3.) Exhibit A: Miami Heat vs. Indiana Pacers. Bosh goes down. Bosh is very efficient in the Heat offense, as Harden is with OKC. Heat struggle and their offense becomes stagnant, and to use your term, 'pedestrian.' Bosh is a good player, but he becomes even better when James and Wade are on the floor to create open shots and lanes for him. I believe that this is analogous to OKC's situation with Harden; they get better with him on the floor because he's a borderline great player reaping the benefits of playing with two bona fide superstars.

1. Nothing ignorant about what he said. Brooks is an abysmal coach, nothing more to say about it. He's not good, period.

2. So why do Harden's stats absolutely sky rocket when Durant and Westbrook are sitting?

3. See #2.

Sactown
08-26-2012, 12:39 PM
No way, James stats are just inflated in part because of OKC's pace and talent he has the honor of playing with.. Just Like Kobes, and Wades

b@llhog24
08-26-2012, 12:51 PM
1. Nothing ignorant about what he said. Brooks is an abysmal coach, nothing more to say about it. He's not good, period.

2. So why do Harden's stats absolutely sky rocket when Durant and Westbrook are sitting?

3. See #2.

Thanks for saving the time ;)

rapjuicer06
08-26-2012, 02:03 PM
1. Nothing ignorant about what he said. Brooks is an abysmal coach, nothing more to say about it. He's not good, period.

2. So why do Harden's stats absolutely sky rocket when Durant and Westbrook are sitting?

3. See #2.

1-I agree Brooks isn't the greatest coach out there

2. Harden's stats sky rocket because when Durant and Westbrook are out of the game, bench players are in the game for the opposing team...for those 4 minutes they aren't out there lol. Talk about a huuuuge sample size :rolleyes:

3. See #2

NYKnicks4511
08-26-2012, 02:13 PM
1-I agree Brooks isn't the greatest coach out there

2. Harden's stats sky rocket because when Durant and Westbrook are out of the game, bench players are in the game for the opposing team...for those 4 minutes they aren't out there lol. Talk about a huuuuge sample size :rolleyes:

3. See #2

This. Harden sees benchies, why would his stats not 'skyrocket' ? As far as Brooks goes, nobody is saying he's elite, but he's a good, solid coach. That's the point I was making.

sp1derm00
08-26-2012, 02:37 PM
Rondo
Harden
Iggy
Ibaka
Chandler

Harden would be the best scorer on this team, hence the #1 option.

The defense on this team would be beastly and every perimeter player is a good passer which would make for a lot of easy looks, making up for the offensive deficiencies of the front line.

ChiSox219
08-26-2012, 02:47 PM
You guys talk like every bench player in the league is a terrible defender.

Baller1
08-26-2012, 03:05 PM
Thanks for saving the time ;)

:hi5:


1-I agree Brooks isn't the greatest coach out there

2. Harden's stats sky rocket because when Durant and Westbrook are out of the game, bench players are in the game for the opposing team...for those 4 minutes they aren't out there lol. Talk about a huuuuge sample size :rolleyes:

3. See #2


This. Harden sees benchies, why would his stats not 'skyrocket' ? As far as Brooks goes, nobody is saying he's elite, but he's a good, solid coach. That's the point I was making.


You guys talk like every bench player in the league is a terrible defender.

Chisox basically answered you guys for me. And most great scorers play along side another great scorer. Did Wade need Lebron and Bosh to be an effective #1 option? Vice versa? Was Kobe a terrible #1 option once Shaq left? I can go on for days...

You guys are using Durant and Westbrook as an excuse for Harden's HISTORICALLY efficient year. Again, historic efficiency.

NYKnicks4511
08-28-2012, 12:43 AM
most great scorers play along side another great scorer. Did Wade need Lebron and Bosh to be an effective #1 option? Vice versa? Was Kobe a terrible #1 option once Shaq left? I can go on for days...

You guys are using Durant and Westbrook as an excuse for Harden's HISTORICALLY efficient year. Again, historic efficiency.

First off, comparing Harden to Wade and Kobe is blasphemy at this point, and irrelevant because they both played with one of the most dominant centers of all time. Guess that's how weak the SG position has become, but that's besides the point.

Nobody is using KD and RW as an excuse for Harden's great play. But it's quite obvious that because Harden faces a team's 3rd best wing defender, and doesn't see nearly as many double teams as he would if he was a #1 option, his two superstar teammates make the game easier for him. Other teams gameplan primarily for Durant and Westbrook, and James Harden takes full advantage of his opponents for doing so. Please, tell me, did I say anything that is blatantly untrue?

Look, Harden is a really nice player and I love his game, but it's foolish to insinuate that his production isn't correlated with him playing with superstar caliber players. The old adage states that correlation doesn't equate to causation, but it sure can't be ignored.

b@llhog24
08-28-2012, 01:28 AM
All the stats have been presented to you as to why Harden would make a good #1. Yet all I'm hearing is baseless claims as to why he can't cut it. He is efficient in literally every offensive (scoring and passing) metric except post play (which he doesn't have enough attempts to qualify). And last time i checked playing within the offense is a good thing (he's elite at everything else anyways). The only thing about Harden's game that's lackluster is his defense, which conventional wisdom tells us will improve seeing as he just turned 23 years old yesterday. To make it short like KoB said what is it about his GAME that makes you think he couldn't be a legit #1.

Steelers23_06
08-28-2012, 01:32 AM
i dont see i agree with what few people said about inflated stats. you have to look at it like he playing either bench players or players are too busy worrying about the other 2. i think he is a solid player for a good team but hes like manu. GREAT player and any team would love to have em but not a coaches choice for #1 scoring option coming out of the gate

b@llhog24
08-28-2012, 01:36 AM
i dont see i agree with what few people said about inflated stats. you have to look at it like he playing either bench players or players are too busy worrying about the other 2. i think he is a solid player for a good team but hes like manu. GREAT player and any team would love to have em but not a coaches choice for #1 scoring option coming out of the gate

Who would you rather give a 10 million dollar contract too, Kevin Martin or Tony Allen?

Steelers23_06
08-28-2012, 01:37 AM
All the stats have been presented to you as to why Harden would make a good #1. Yet all I'm hearing is baseless claims as to why he can't cut it. He is efficient in literally every offensive (scoring and passing) metric except post play (which he doesn't have enough attempts to qualify). And last time i checked playing within the offense is a good thing (he's elite at everything else anyways). The only thing about Harden's game that's lackluster is his defense, which conventional wisdom tells us will improve seeing as he just turned 23 years old yesterday. To make it short like KoB said what is it about his GAME that makes you think he couldn't be a legit #1.

lol u PSD'ers are too worried about stats. stats dont prove everything. there is a reason you dont see guys being the nuymber 3 option and leading their team after. i can only name one and that joe johnson. but joe had height and was a much better defender. i see harden being a dangerous number 2 option like on the bulls or clippers if paul leaves(dont know what the money would look like). i look at harden as better driving, worse shooting jason terry. and jason terry led the hawks nowhere when he was their #1 so id expect the same from harden.

Steelers23_06
08-28-2012, 01:39 AM
Who would you rather give a 10 million dollar contract too, Kevin Martin or Tony Allen?

me personally tony allen. he bring more to the table. does the things you cant measure. kevin martyin is a scorer if hes not feeling it your team is in for a longg night. but allen would get you those hustle plays & defend their best player. but hey thats just me. im sure 99% of PSD would disagree

jerellh528
08-28-2012, 01:41 AM
No, okc cant even win with him as 3rd option.

b@llhog24
08-28-2012, 01:47 AM
u PSD'ers are too worried about stats.
You'd have a point if stats were the only thing i used in my argument. And what I've found out is most people who don't like stats are xenophobic.


stats dont prove everything. there is a reason you dont see guys being the nuymber 3 option and leading their team after.
That's except Harden is not your everyday #3. How is it his fault that he plays with two top 10 players? If Melo was on that team he would/should be the 3rd options as well.

i can only name one and that joe johnson. but joe had height and was a much better defender. i see harden being a dangerous number 2 option like on the bulls or clippers if paul leaves(dont know what the money would look like). i look at harden as better driving, worse shooting jason terry. and jason terry led the hawks nowhere when he was their #1 so id expect the same from harden.

Harden outproduces Joe Johnson substantially when he was a third opinion as well, and is on par with him as a first option. He's better than Terry as well.

b@llhog24
08-28-2012, 01:52 AM
Who would you rather give a 10 million dollar contract too, Kevin Martin or Tony Allen?

me personally tony allen. he bring more to the table. does the things you cant measure. kevin martyin is a scorer if hes not feeling it your team is in for a longg night. but allen would get you those hustle plays & defend their best player. but hey thats just me. im sure 99% of PSD would disagree

I'm more concerned with the 99% right now. On average most bench players are good to great defenders. If they were good offensively they would be starting. So the whole "he only plays bench players" argument is way overblown.

Edit: Most 6MOY player ala Harden are the expections.

Steelers23_06
08-28-2012, 01:55 AM
You'd have a point if stats were the only thing i used in my argument. And what I've found out is most people who don't like stats are xenophobic.


That's except Harden is not your everyday #3. How is it his fault that he plays with two top 10 players? If Melo was on that team he would/should be the 3rd options as well.


Harden outproduces Joe Johnson substantially when he was a third opinion as well, and is on par with him as a first option. He's better than Terry as well.

lol if stats could predicted the future emeka okafor would be the most dominate big man in the league right now, vince carter would be the GOAT and a.i. would be still playing. if it came from the small window of stats your basing this on. im not saying he absolutely couldnt but im saying its not smart. bosh is our 3rd option and a proven 1st option so you could build around him but that essentially doesnt mean you should

b@llhog24
08-28-2012, 01:57 AM
You'd have a point if stats were the only thing i used in my argument. And what I've found out is most people who don't like stats are xenophobic.


That's except Harden is not your everyday #3. How is it his fault that he plays with two top 10 players? If Melo was on that team he would/should be the 3rd options as well.


Harden outproduces Joe Johnson substantially when he was a third opinion as well, and is on par with him as a first option. He's better than Terry as well.

lol if stats could predicted the future emeka okafor would be the most dominate big man in the league right now, vince carter would be the GOAT and a.i. would be still playing. if it came from the small window of stats your basing this on. im not saying he absolutely couldnt but im saying its not smart. bosh is our 3rd option and a proven 1st option so you could build around him but that essentially doesnt mean you should

This isn't even a reply to anything that I said. :confused:

Steelers23_06
08-28-2012, 02:02 AM
You'd have a point if stats were the only thing i used in my argument. And what I've found out is most people who don't like stats are xenophobic.


That's except Harden is not your everyday #3. How is it his fault that he plays with two top 10 players? If Melo was on that team he would/should be the 3rd options as well.


Harden outproduces Joe Johnson substantially when he was a third opinion as well, and is on par with him as a first option. He's better than Terry as well.

answers to all that. do you read what you post?

b@llhog24
08-28-2012, 02:07 AM
You'd have a point if stats were the only thing i used in my argument. And what I've found out is most people who don't like stats are xenophobic.


That's except Harden is not your everyday #3. How is it his fault that he plays with two top 10 players? If Melo was on that team he would/should be the 3rd options as well.


Harden outproduces Joe Johnson substantially when he was a third opinion as well, and is on par with him as a first option. He's better than Terry as well.

answers to all that. do you read what you post?

I do; maybe its how far off base your responses are. :shrug:

Steelers23_06
08-28-2012, 02:17 AM
ok lemme put it easy for you. it would be very dumb to make harden your #1 he plays better like this. he doesnt have to force shots playing off the bench and if he has a bad game(s) like he did against miami (scoring single digits 3 out of 5 games) it doesnt kill his team like in game 1. because if you make a player force shots and be the number one option the get the chucker label. ala marbury, ellis, steve francis...the list goes on and on. all those guys are solid #2/#3 options but if you put them as your primary scorer its not going to take you far in the playoffs. but its good with a streaky scorer to have the option to send him the bench if hes not feeling it, but if your offense runs through them you become stagnant when they are off the court or their shot is off.

b@llhog24
08-28-2012, 02:19 AM
Ok i got what you were tryin to say let me break it down.



lol if stats could predicted the future emeka okafor would be the most dominate big man in the league right now, vince carter would be the GOAT and a.i. would be still playing. if it came from the small window of stats your basing this on.

If you wish to engage in a statistical conversation with me I'd appreciate if you knew what you were talking about.


im not saying he absolutely couldnt but im saying its not smart. bosh is our 3rd option and a proven 1st option so you could build around him but that essentially doesnt mean you should

Obviously we don't know 100% if he would be able to be a #1 because it hasn't happened as yet. But we can make predictions as to why he could, his game just literally translates to winning. Name me 5 things that he can't do offensively.

b@llhog24
08-28-2012, 02:27 AM
ok lemme put it easy for you. it would be very dumb to make harden your #1 he plays better like this. he doesnt have to force shots playing off the bench and if he has a bad game(s) like he did against miami (scoring single digits 3 out of 5 games) it doesnt kill his team like in game 1. because if you make a player force shots and be the number one option the get the chucker label. ala marbury, ellis, steve francis...the list goes on and on. all those guys are solid #2/#3 options but if you put them as your primary scorer its not going to take you far in the playoffs. but its good with a streaky scorer to have the option to send him the bench if hes not feeling it, but if your offense runs through them you become stagnant when they are off the court or their shot is off.

He can score on single coverage, and pass out of double teams, is great in transition while both leading or finishing the break, and doesn't make bonehead plays. It's starting to sound like you guys are sayin you want him to play on a team completely devoid of talent. Only a select few players (Paul, Dwight, Wade, Bron) can carry a team of scrubs to the playoffs. He's good but he's not THAT good.

Steelers23_06
08-28-2012, 02:34 AM
He can score on single coverage, and pass out of double teams, is great in transition while both leading or finishing the break, and doesn't make bonehead plays. It's starting to sound like you guys are sayin you want him to play on a team completely devoid of talent. Only a select few players (Paul, Dwight, Wade, Bron) can carry a team of scrubs to the playoffs. He's good but he's not THAT good.

sound like marbury in his prime to me? :shrug: i say he could make the playoffs. i just dont see him going anywhere as the best option. prove it then. gimme a lineup with him as the best scorer that would beat the Heat. im saying i could easily do that with him as the 3rd option prob not even the 2nd though.

b@llhog24
08-28-2012, 02:41 AM
He can score on single coverage, and pass out of double teams, is great in transition while both leading or finishing the break, and doesn't make bonehead plays. It's starting to sound like you guys are sayin you want him to play on a team completely devoid of talent. Only a select few players (Paul, Dwight, Wade, Bron) can carry a team of scrubs to the playoffs. He's good but he's not THAT good.

sound like marbury in his prime to me? :shrug: i say he could make the playoffs. i just dont see him going anywhere as the best option. prove it then. gimme a lineup with him as the best scorer that would beat the Heat. im saying i could easily do that with him as the 3rd option prob not even the 2nd though.

The Thunder couldn't beat the Heat yet i don't see anyone questioning KD's credentials as a #1. :shrug:

b@llhog24
08-28-2012, 02:43 AM
As for the team.

Kyrie
Harden
Iggy
Noah
Chandler

Would **** on teams all over the league.

Steelers23_06
08-28-2012, 03:50 AM
As for the team.

Kyrie
Harden
Iggy
Noah
Chandler

Would **** on teams all over the league.

on that note...im done :crazy:

rapjuicer06
08-28-2012, 09:19 AM
The Thunder couldn't beat the Heat yet i don't see anyone questioning KD's credentials as a #1. :shrug:

Well, Durant showed up in the finals, along with Westbrook. Where was Harden?


As for the team.

Kyrie
Harden
Iggy
Noah
Chandler

Would **** on teams all over the league.

That team would never be made lol, and it was 2 scoring options on it. Defensive wise, it'd be great, but Kryie and Harden would be ****ed with the lack of offense from Noah and Chandler. The lane would be completely closed off to both of them. That team would not be very good

b@llhog24
12-26-2012, 02:20 AM
Well, Durant showed up in the finals, along with Westbrook. Where was Harden?



That team would never be made lol, and it was 2 scoring options on it. Defensive wise, it'd be great, but Kryie and Harden would be ****ed with the lack of offense from Noah and Chandler. The lane would be completely closed off to both of them. That team would not be very good

Well lookie here. :)

jam
12-26-2012, 02:24 AM
Well, Durant showed up in the finals, along with Westbrook. Where was Harden?


Harden is 23 years old. He's only going to improve; the sky's the limit.

WhiteSoxGod
12-26-2012, 02:27 AM
Yeah Harden looks pretty good as the #1 option in Houston. Wait until he has more weapons around him. And yeah he is only 23 years old. Houston is the youngest team in the NBA.

Yunqn
12-26-2012, 02:42 AM
So your telling me that if u swap richard hamilton for james harden he wouldnt have a chance to win a championship with the old pistons ? Harden would clearly be the face of that team..

You guys need to understand .. Building a team towards a championship with someone being the best of the group is different than expecting one guy to single handily lead the franchise to never before seen heights ..

Only guys like lebron & kd can do that right now.. LITERALLY no one else imo..

But yes james harden can win you a championship as the best player on your team as long as you build it correctly.. Its who you have around him. From owner to the front office to coach to players and to the people around him personally..

jam
12-26-2012, 02:42 AM
It's safe to say the rockets don't suck. They have four straight blowout wins against some of the best defensive teams in the nba: the bulls, the grizzlies, the sixers and the knicks.

The rockets have scored at least 120 points in three straight games, and they shot a ridiculous 56% against the bulls.

Anyway, I don't want to jinx this damn team--just noting the rockets are already starting to realize their potential at a much earlier stage than most predicted.

sagemania
12-26-2012, 03:11 AM
31 points 6 assists 5 boards on 61% in the last 8 games. BTW, Houston has won 7 of those 8 games with wins in New York, beaten the Grizz, Lakers and the Bulls.