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View Full Version : Why is Kobe one of if not the most disrespected NBA superstar of all-time



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waveycrockett
08-29-2012, 02:52 AM
But why the change of heart on Lebron we he went to maimi I heard that oh he will never be compared to the great oh he can't be great but what ever but I asked this to all the doubters about Kobe greatness tell the nba to take his jersey,his shoes of the market from china and other parts of the world see what they tell an Hell no

Because that opinion was made by a bunch of bitter people who now realize they were just mad LeBron didn't choose them.

Lewisknows
08-29-2012, 03:03 AM
LeBron doesn't WANT to score like Kobe did. He's not about "getting his" and screw everyone else the way kobe is/was. He is an all-around monster, a triple-double threat every game, he looks to make EVERYONE better. This is why he was voted the best player in the NBA 3 times and Kobe only once because Kobe was OBVIOUSLY a selfish player who only cared about how many times he shot the ball. If LeBron wanted to drop buckets like that he could SA and Skip have the least credibility in the entire ESPN corporation their opinions mean very little if nothing at all.

Im sick and tired of calling Kobe selfish look a the teams he had during the 2004 -2008 because if that the time where people calling him selfish then I agree u would have to be with smush Parker, chris mihm,kwame the so called machine and the weak minded Lamar plain and simple if u were playing on a team that couldnt score I bet you that you will be pissed too so cut all this selfish junk out because I bet you Lebron who not done with his career will do selfish oh excuse me did he not play in game 6 against the celtics oh he wanted mike brown fired pls get outta hear

amos1er
08-29-2012, 03:06 AM
LeBron doesn't WANT to score like Kobe did. He's not about "getting his" and screw everyone else the way kobe is/was. He is an all-around monster, a triple-double threat every game, he looks to make EVERYONE better. This is why he was voted the best player in the NBA 3 times and Kobe only once because Kobe was OBVIOUSLY a selfish player who only cared about how many times he shot the ball. If LeBron wanted to drop buckets like that he could SA and Skip have the least credibility in the entire ESPN corporation their opinions mean very little if nothing at all.

lol...you act like Lebron doesn't take away from his teammates at all. Every player that has played with Lebron has seen significant reduction in their stats. Wade scored less and had less assists, Bosh had less rebounds, Big Z had less rebounds, Mo Williams had less assists, and so did every other player that has teamed up with the triple double machine known as Lebron James. His tripple doubles come at the expense of his teammates stats so don't act like he makes his teammates better because he wants to win his way and that way is to hog all the stats. When Kobe teamed up with Gasol, he had his best seasons as a player and so did Shaq for that matter. Kobe knows how to let his teammates play to their strengths and not try to take way from their scoring rebounds and assists. Lebron may be better at putting up advanced stats (mostly at the expense of his teammates) but Kobe is just plain better at winning.

mngopher35
08-29-2012, 03:07 AM
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Kobe in his prime scored 81 points in a single game, scored 62 in three quarters, had 4 consecutive games of 50 or more, and won two titles as the finals MVP. Kobe's prime was ridiculous as far as an individual talent. No way that Lebron can even touch that. Even Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith agree on this one. When it comes to advanced stats however, Lebron is the man and Kobe cannot touch him. As far as winning, breaking countless scoring records, one on one play, fundamentals, being clutch and carrying a team on their back...Kobe far surpasses Lebron.

Sorry but no way buddy. Skip is your evidence? If you want a better scorer with less efficiency then yes kobe is better. You want a better passer, rebounder, overall defender, and overall efficient player then its Lebron in his prime for sure. Kobe has had an amazing career as a whole but its more due to longevity than dominance. Lebrons best season is easily better than kobes, as far as individual talent goes.

waveycrockett
08-29-2012, 03:12 AM
lol...you act like Lebron doesn't take away from his teammates at all. Every player that has played with Lebron has seen significant reduction in their stats. Wade scored less and had less assists, Bosh had less rebounds, Big Z had less rebounds, Mo Williams had less assists, and so did every other player that has teamed up with the triple double machine known as Lebron James. His tripple doubles come at the expense of his teammates stats so don't act like he makes his teammates better because he wants to win his way and that way is to hog all the stats. When Kobe teamed up with Gasol, he had his best seasons as a player and so did Shaq for that matter. Kobe knows how to let his teammates play to their strengths and not try to take way from their scoring rebounds and assists. Lebron may be better at putting up advanced stats (mostly at the expense of his teammates) but Kobe is just plain better at winning.

lolwhut?

Lewisknows
08-29-2012, 03:14 AM
Sorry but no way buddy. Skip is your evidence? If you want a better scorer with less efficiency then yes kobe is better. You want a better passer, rebounder, overall defender, and overall efficient player then its Lebron in his prime for sure. Kobe has had an amazing career as a whole but its more due to longevity than dominance. Lebrons best season is easily better than kobes, as far as individual talent goes.

You can't judge Kobe or lbj now if u saying that Kobe is an underrated passer not to mention 9 time first team defense bro and any body would be efficient when u have d wade bosh and outside shooting what Kobe have 2 7 footers who don't show up and a horrible bench just to mention people arguementive are pointless smh :facepalm:

mngopher35
08-29-2012, 03:25 AM
You can't judge Kobe or lbj now if u saying that Kobe is an underrated passer not to mention 9 time first team defense bro and any body would be efficient when u have d wade bosh and outside shooting what Kobe have 2 7 footers who don't show up and a horrible bench just to mention people arguementive are pointless smh :facepalm:

Not exactly sure what your trying to say? I feel very confident saying Lebron is a better passer though. I didnt say Kobe didnt have great defense in his prime, just that I think Lebrons is better (partially to do with help D, and ability to guard so many positions). What about when kobe had shaq to kick him the ball out of double teams? What about when Lebron was on Cleveland? Lebron has been more efficient than Kobe consistantly, not only because hes had wade and bosh for 2 seasons...

Steelers23_06
08-29-2012, 03:48 AM
You can't judge Kobe or lbj now if u saying that Kobe is an underrated passer not to mention 9 time first team defense bro and any body would be efficient when u have d wade bosh and outside shooting what Kobe have 2 7 footers who don't show up and a horrible bench just to mention people arguementive are pointless smh :facepalm:

are you serious? like the poster before me said he only had them for two seasons. i think playing with them allowed to work the weaker parts of his game like his post game and now he is taking smarter shots because he doesnt have to force it as much as in cleveland. but if you put lebron on the lakers teams kobes had beside the year with kwame and smush and i think he puts up better numbers then he had with cleveland. his rebounding takes a dip buti think he could easily average 28/10/5 with pau and bynum.

SirSkyHook
08-29-2012, 04:01 AM
lol...you act like Lebron doesn't take away from his teammates at all. Every player that has played with Lebron has seen significant reduction in their stats. Wade scored less and had less assists, Bosh had less rebounds, Big Z had less rebounds, Mo Williams had less assists, and so did every other player that has teamed up with the triple double machine known as Lebron James. His tripple doubles come at the expense of his teammates stats so don't act like he makes his teammates better because he wants to win his way and that way is to hog all the stats. When Kobe teamed up with Gasol, he had his best seasons as a player and so did Shaq for that matter. Kobe knows how to let his teammates play to their strengths and not try to take way from their scoring rebounds and assists. Lebron may be better at putting up advanced stats (mostly at the expense of his teammates) but Kobe is just plain better at winning.

Ive been saying this for so long. People just refuse to understand it. :clap: Great post you nailed it on the head.

And to take that further. Thats why his Cleveland teams couldnt win, becuase he spent the whole season being a stat whore that when it was time for his team to hold their own on the big stages they were already into season long bad habbits.

amos1er
08-29-2012, 04:02 AM
Sorry but no way buddy. Skip is your evidence? If you want a better scorer with less efficiency then yes kobe is better. You want a better passer, rebounder, overall defender, and overall efficient player then its Lebron in his prime for sure. Kobe has had an amazing career as a whole but its more due to longevity than dominance. Lebrons best season is easily better than kobes, as far as individual talent goes.

90% of all experts and analysts will disagree with your assessment. Find me one season where Lebron scored 81 points in a single game, scored 62 in three quarters and averaged 35 ppg in a season. Lebron never had a season like that and never will. Sorry, but Kobe's 2006 season was just legendary and Lebron will never be able to touch that. Rebounds and assists are just not that impressive to me. I also find it humorous that you don't think that Kobe was dominant in his 2006 season. 35 ppg is pretty damn dominant to me...lol. Just what do you consider to be Lebron's best season from an individual stand point? I guarantee you that from 2001-2010 Kobe would have whooped Lebrons *** in a one on one game at any point in his prime. Its a joke for you to say that Lebron is a better defender too. Do you not even do any research before you post? Kobe has 9 all NBA first team selections. Lebron just started concentrating on defense recently and he will be the first to admit that it was Kobe's work ethic on the 2008 Olympic team that inspired him.

SirSkyHook
08-29-2012, 04:18 AM
are you serious? like the poster before me said he only had them for two seasons. i think playing with them allowed to work the weaker parts of his game like his post game and now he is taking smarter shots because he doesnt have to force it as much as in cleveland. but if you put lebron on the lakers teams kobes had beside the year with kwame and smush and i think he puts up better numbers then he had with cleveland. his rebounding takes a dip buti think he could easily average 28/10/5 with pau and bynum.

What will Pau and Bynum average though? seeing that players play fall off when teamed with him, I see similar results or worse. Pau will become Big Z, Bynum would become Big Ben like and only grab boards, because Lebron would need the paint to be open for his drives, and their would be no Mo Williams he'll have Blake, and Goudelock will be Booble Gibson. You will have the 2009 Cavs all over again but in a harder West without a Mo type player, good luck with that :rolleyes:

On the other hand if you switched Kobe than Big Z could average 20/10 and Big Ben has more room to control the paint with shot blocking like with Detroit to a lesser but effective degree. Mo's numbers will go down but he'll come off the bench as a scorer like Terry for the Mavs and Boobie becomes big shot maker like Fish. Kobe's number will stay the same and seeing the game is won inside out and they would be playing in a weaker East, the Cavs win more game and Maybe a ring

seikou8
08-29-2012, 04:21 AM
90% of all experts and analysts will disagree with your assessment. Find me one season where Lebron scored 81 points in a single game, scored 62 in three quarters and averaged 35 ppg in a season. Lebron never had a season like that and never will. Sorry, but Kobe's 2006 season was just legendary and Lebron will never be able to touch that. Rebounds and assists are just not that impressive to me. I also find it humorous that you don't think that Kobe was dominant in his 2006 season. 35 ppg is pretty damn dominant to me...lol. Just what do you consider to be Lebron's best season from an individual stand point? I guarantee you that from 2001-2010 Kobe would have whooped Lebrons *** in a one on one game at any point in his prime. Its a joke for you to say that Lebron is a better defender too. Do you not even do any research before you post? Kobe has 9 all NBA first team selections. Lebron just started concentrating on defense recently and he will be the first to admit that it was Kobe's work ethic on the 2008 Olympic team that inspired him.

when lebron could done it if wanted to jack up like kobe.rebounds and assists arent impressive so i guess magic Johnson is not a top player of all time right:rolleyes:. what he did was really special against toronto all the greats aside form wilt haven't scored 81 in a game does that make kobe better than them too?it a joke come on man lebron has 4 at age of 27

amos1er
08-29-2012, 04:32 AM
when lebron could done it if wanted to jack up like kobe.rebounds and assists arent impressive so i guess magic Johnson is not a top player of all time right:rolleyes:. what he did was really special against toronto all the greats aside form wilt haven't scored 81 in a game does that make kobe better than them too?it a joke come on man lebron has 4 at age of 27

Really...sounds like a could of should of would of excuse to me. Lebron has had many chances to break 60 points in a game and has failed to do so. Trust me, a man of Lebron's ego would love to have a 60 + point game under his belt. His game just lacks the scoring ability that guys like Kobe, MJ, and Wilt possess. Lebron just isn't as good a scorer as Kobe...why can't you people admit that? Magic nearly averaged a triple double one season and was much more clutch than Lebron. Best Lebron ever did was 8 rebounds and 7 assists or vice versa. In his rookie year, Magic played center for Kareem and dropped 40, 15, and 8 in a close out game. Even in his rookie season, Magic was waaay more clutch than Lebron. Its an insult to Magic to compare him to Lebron in any way. Magic was a winner and Lebron needed to team up with a top 5 player and a top 15 player just to win a ring. Even with all that help he came up short last year...Magic would not have lost to Dallas with HCA with all that help. Magic never had to team up with Jordan or Bird to get the job done...in the words of MJ..."he was trying to beat those guys".

amos1er
08-29-2012, 04:35 AM
What will Pau and Bynum average though? seeing that players play fall off when teamed with him, I see similar results or worse. Pau will become Big Z, Bynum would become Big Ben like and only grab boards, because Lebron would need the paint to be open for his drives, and their would be no Mo Williams he'll have Blake, and Goudelock will be Booble Gibson. You will have the 2009 Cavs all over again but in a harder West without a Mo type player, good luck with that :rolleyes:

On the other hand if you switched Kobe than Big Z could average 20/10 and Big Ben has more room to control the paint with shot blocking like with Detroit to a lesser but effective degree. Mo's numbers will go down but he'll come off the bench as a scorer like Terry for the Mavs and Boobie becomes big shot maker like Fish. Kobe's number will stay the same and seeing the game is won inside out and they would be playing in a weaker East, the Cavs win more game and Maybe a ring

Yup...exactly. Anyone that teams up with Lebron sees a significant fall out in their statistical production. It's a proven fact. Lebron needs triple doubles in order to make up for his shortcomings as a scorer and a closer. Therefore his teammates stats will suffer.

SteBO
08-29-2012, 06:27 AM
Ive been saying this for so long. People just refuse to understand it. :clap: Great post you nailed it on the head.

And to take that further. Thats why his Cleveland teams couldnt win, becuase he spent the whole season being a stat whore that when it was time for his team to hold their own on the big stages they were already into season long bad habbits.
I guess that means your definition of "stat whore" is different from mine, because last I checked those Cleveland teams had nothing for LeBron to work with. Yet you and am1sor have the gaul to sit here and defend Kobe for his chucking ways for years? :confused: wouldnt that make Kobe a stat whore then? Yes it would. The double standards when it comes to LeBron is ridiculous. He never had the all around talent around him that Kobe had. Anyone who tries to deny that is delusional. I don't understand why that's hard for some Laker fans to accept.

SirSkyHook
08-29-2012, 06:40 AM
Because most fans on the internet love stats. Most people realize at some point that basketball isn't a great game for stats. Now we have more advanced metrics, but basketball is fundamentally difficult to attach stats to, unlike baseball. So people on the internet will make great statistical arguments about player x y and z.

I don't believe the statistical argument is the reason people don't like Kobe. I think it might be a little deeper than that, but its usually manifested in that way. Most people who don't like Kobe, didn't like him before they pulled up his basketball reference page. I doubt anyone who isn't a fan of a player, looks at their stats page and becomes a fan. The mind has already been made up, and they look to the stats to validate their hatred.

But to compare Kobe's stats to players who play entirely different positions and entirely different games of basketball, see different defensive schemes and run different offensive schemes, is just like comparing apples and oranges. Basketball doesn't have the same plug in and play mechanics that is part of baseball. Trying to break the game down using just stats is going to look pretty on an internet forum, but ultimately won't account for a whole lot.

:clap: This is by far one of my favorite post :clap:

I feel the same on the advance stats argument. I like raw numbers because it gives you the overall period. Theres to many factor in basketball to equate to use them. Also its crazy how some people now and days completley be-little championships, when I thought that was the purpose of playing the game. Its a team award I get it but majority of the time its one or two players that decide to will ther team to a ring. Shaq dosent win without Kobe, but Shaq could have without Fish, Fox, and Horry, so Kobe's ring counts in alltime great convo exspecially considering he dosent get out the West without Kobe period.

I think the Lebron era created these advance stats people. I think they were preparing themselves thinking Lebron wouldnt win a ring and started fishing for ways to make him great. Its funny how now that Lebron has a ring and could get another, rings have now started to regain some sort of importance when ranking alltime greats, before Lebron was in many eyes primed to leap frong Kobe on stats alone. I mean is 2pts 2rebs, and 2ast really that much to throw aside 5 rings?

lookie8
08-29-2012, 10:24 AM
Because that opinion was made by a bunch of bitter people who now realize they were just mad LeBron didn't choose them.

I didn't want Lebron on the Nets

Heatcheck
08-29-2012, 10:32 AM
You said flat out AI was not a good defender. I can't imagine how a guy who led the NBA in steals not once, not twice but THREE TIMES in his career is a bad defender. Can you name a me a bad defender who has done that?

steals dont reflect good defense. it just means your quick and have good hands, most of them come in help defense. its only an aspect. Iverson was a horrible defender both because of his size and his commitment to it.

Jesse2272
08-29-2012, 10:36 AM
Kobe is laughing all the way to the bank shining his rings

lookie8
08-29-2012, 11:26 AM
Kobe is laughing all the way to the bank shining his rings

It's nice to have an NBA player that is a stool-pigeon rapist who can laugh

Lewisknows
08-29-2012, 11:30 AM
Why all the hate on kobe why? Because he competitive he has an heart to win he put in alot extra hours of work still number one in jersey sells 5 time champ 15 time Allstar 29,0000 points 9 time first all defense MVP(should have been more)finals MVP twice he has put the league on his back and carried in various countries. They just hate to hate what this man has done for sixteen years!!!!! Is remarkable and still putting up numbers but you know haters are supportive because they see any thread on Kobe here come those supporters now I'm calling haters supporters

Lewisknows
08-29-2012, 11:35 AM
It's nice to have an NBA player that is a stool-pigeon rapist who can laugh

Really guy u hate him that much to stoop that low really here on supporter

lookie8
08-29-2012, 11:42 AM
Really guy u hate him that much to stoop that low really here on supporter

If the rings get mntioned, the rape gets mentioned.

And Kobe is the guy who stooped that low. He's a stool-pigeon rapist. I'm just a poster on a basketball forum.

Faneik
08-29-2012, 11:48 AM
imo, 4 reasons:

1. refusing to play for the team that drafted him
2. kobe/shaq feud
3. rapist
4. ballhog who doesn't trust his teammates the ball in crunch time

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 11:48 AM
If the rings get mntioned, the rape gets mentioned.

And Kobe is the guy who stooped that low. He's a stool-pigeon rapist. I'm just a poster on a basketball forum.

haha, you are turning into the negative nancy around here. First you wish a horrible injury on a player, and now this.

I love it

"Kobe had a PER of 28, and scored 35 a night, baller!"
lookie: "did you know the divorce rate has tripled since 1050?"

lookie8
08-29-2012, 11:58 AM
haha, you are turning into the negative nancy around here. First you wish a horrible injury on a player, and now this.

I love it

"Kobe had a PER of 28, and scored 35 a night, baller!"
lookie: "did you know the divorce rate has tripled since 1050?"

Sorry for having a negative take on a stool-pigeon rapist,

I'd imagine you would be a big fan of many stool pigeons and many rapists, so Kobe must be a big bonus for you.

I love this stuff too. Now you post something great about the rapist.

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-29-2012, 12:00 PM
Why all the hate on kobe why? Because he competitive he has an heart to win he put in alot extra hours of work still number one in jersey sells 5 time champ 15 time Allstar 29,0000 points 9 time first all defense MVP(should have been more)finals MVP twice he has put the league on his back and carried in various countries. They just hate to hate what this man has done for sixteen years!!!!! Is remarkable and still putting up numbers but you know haters are supportive because they see any thread on Kobe here come those supporters now I'm calling haters supporters


:clap:

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-29-2012, 12:00 PM
Sorry for having a negative take on a stool-pigeon rapist,

I'd imagine you would be a big fan of many stool pigeons and many rapists, so Kobe must be a big bonus for you.

I love this stuff too. Now you post something great about the rapist.

You should get banned for making such stupid comments

lookie8
08-29-2012, 12:01 PM
:clap:

Hooray for the rapist

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-29-2012, 12:04 PM
imo, 4 reasons:

1. refusing to play for the team that drafted him
2. kobe/shaq feud
3. rapist
4. ballhog who doesn't trust his teammates the ball in crunch time


1. He didn't refuse to play for the team that drafted him but it was well known he wanted to play for the lakers(2 totally different things)
2.so it's all Kobe's fault right? Shaq is not at fault at all?
3. Anyone who still brings the rape case is a moron and someone who has run out of things to say to derail kobe from his throne
4. Last time I checked last year Kobe did pass the ball in the clutch a few times but his teammates usually messed up mainly(gasol) but don't Come to me with that Kobe had that important assist he gave to Ron when he made that 3 pointer to basically win game 7 of the 2010 NBA finals

Celtics fans are jealous because they've never had a player as great as Kobe Bryant

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-29-2012, 12:06 PM
Lookie8 has nothing else to say about Kobe so he calls him a rapist which is absolutely false as well

Chronz
08-29-2012, 12:11 PM
This thread has gone to ****.

Heatcheck
08-29-2012, 12:12 PM
1. He didn't refuse to play for the team that drafted him but it was well known he wanted to play for the lakers(2 totally different things)
2.so it's all Kobe's fault right? Shaq is not at fault at all?
3. Anyone who still brings the rape case is a moron and someone who has run out of things to say to derail kobe from his throne
4. Last time I checked last year Kobe did pass the ball in the clutch a few times but his teammates usually messed up mainly(gasol) but don't Come to me with that Kobe had that important assist he gave to Ron when he made that 3 pointer to basically win game 7 of the 2010 NBA finals

Celtics fans are jealous because they've never had a player as great as Kobe Bryant

1. when someone says playing for the team that drafted him would be an "impossibility", im pretty sure that qualifies, doesnt matter if its because he liked the lakers or disliked charlotte.
2. yes, when you tell on a teamate to get the press off your back, (whether he meant to get shaq in trouble or not is irrelevant) your a snitch

At the end of the day, we watch basketball players for their ability to play ball. Kobes morals and values have nothing to do with how he plays ball.

Disliking him as a man is one thing, but to judge what he's accomplished or what type of player he is based on his off court dealings is stupid.

Chronz
08-29-2012, 12:13 PM
Better than kicking the dog.

How do you know about that?

Chronz
08-29-2012, 12:13 PM
Reading some of the posts on here is just flat out ridiculous. Winning a title against a specific player does not make you better than that player, being a better player makes you a better player. If Lebron loses to Kobe in the Finals, but Kobe is the second or third best player on that team and Lebron completely goes off for like 35/7/7 every game, is Kobe the better player? No. This is a ridiculous argument.

I do still believe that Lebron has a ways to go before he can pass Kobe. Kobe's clutchness and longevity are legendary, but Lebron's prime crushes his to pieces. If Lebron can play another 5-10 season and notch maybe 1-2 more rings on his belt, I firmly believe that Lebron will be the greater all-time player.

Cosigned

Stinkyoutsider
08-29-2012, 12:40 PM
It's not about rings for me. I think rings could be talked about when discussing which player is the most successful but not the best player.

I think Kobe is already is there in a sense? Kobe has a few years of service on Lebron so I would like to really compare these guys once they both retire.

lookie8
08-29-2012, 12:40 PM
How do you know about that?

Somebody told me

bledrules
08-29-2012, 12:40 PM
Kobe Bryant was the beginning of the end for the NBA,he's an ego maniac who started the trend that tools like Wade,LBJ and Dwight Howard have embraced
**** the nba

lookie8
08-29-2012, 12:41 PM
You should get banned for making such stupid comments

And you should get banned for responding to them

Jesse2272
08-29-2012, 12:43 PM
Kobe Bryant was the beginning of the end for the NBA,he's an ego maniac who started the trend that tools like Wade,LBJ and Dwight Howard have embraced
**** the nba

Jordan was an ego maniac imo

lookie8
08-29-2012, 12:44 PM
1. when someone says playing for the team that drafted him would be an "impossibility", im pretty sure that qualifies, doesnt matter if its because he liked the lakers or disliked charlotte.
2. yes, when you tell on a teamate to get the press off your back, (whether he meant to get shaq in trouble or not is irrelevant) your a snitch

At the end of the day, we watch basketball players for their ability to play ball. Kobes morals and values have nothing to do with how he plays ball.

Disliking him as a man is one thing, but to judge what he's accomplished or what type of player he is based on his off court dealings is stupid.

We are talking about why he's disrespected.

His being a chucker has little to do with it.

Being an obnoxious, fingerpointing, egotistical stool pigeon rapist is the reason he is disrespected.

Heatcheck
08-29-2012, 01:05 PM
Kobe Bryant was the beginning of the end for the NBA,he's an ego maniac who started the trend that tools like Wade,LBJ and Dwight Howard have embraced
**** the nba

Jordan and isaiah make kobe look like a monk. and they ALL pale in comparison to Wilt.

Heatcheck
08-29-2012, 01:15 PM
We are talking about why he's disrespected.

His being a chucker has little to do with it.

Being an obnoxious, fingerpointing, egotistical stool pigeon rapist is the reason he is disrespected.

Thats exactly my point. All that stuff should be irrelevant if you watch basketball because of the basketball. how he is off court shouldnt impact what you think about him as a player. and vica versa.

lookie8
08-29-2012, 01:20 PM
Thats exactly my point. All that stuff should be irrelevant if you watch basketball because of the basketball. how he is off court shouldnt impact what you think about him as a player. and vica versa.

The thread is about disrespect.

He deserves to be disrespected

Heatcheck
08-29-2012, 01:24 PM
The thread is about disrespect.

He deserves to be disrespected

if u say so

lookie8
08-29-2012, 01:26 PM
if u say so

Obviously, I say so.

Should a rapist be respected?

AlmostThere
08-29-2012, 01:37 PM
It's nice to have an NBA player that is a stool-pigeon rapist who can laugh

Stfu dude. Its hilarious how people bring kobe being accused of Rape. If you were a girl and one of the greatest(and highest paid) athletes in the world says he want to have sex with you, umm I'm pretty sure 99% of girls would say yes. Money, Sex, Power. If you have one of those three you can get the other two. And when she went in to get tested this whore had semen from other men in her panties so its pretty obvious she was a money hungry whore. Kobe even offered a settlement which the girl accepted. Do you think that if she was truly "raped" that money would be enough to get over the emotional and mental harm he would have made? No so get out of here. Its like saying if Jessica Alba or Scarlett Johansson walked into your town and wanted to F your brains out you would say no. Hell you would probably suck up lebron if he asked you too.

Wilt the Stilt Chamberlain. Didn't he admit to having sex with thousands of women in his lifetime?:confused:

And for anyone saying Lebron is already better than Kobe your insane. Kobe at 27 was averaging 35.5 PPG 1.8 SPG shooting 45% 5 RPG while playing with grabage. Kwame Brown was so bad that even Jordan talks smack about him. Kwame is the guy that didn't want to receive a pass because he didn't think he was going to make it in. I'm sorry but Lebron at 27 is playing with two top top 5 players at their positions. Kobe didn't Have anywhere near that much help when he was 27. I'm sure if he did he would already have more rings than Jordan already had he received equivalent help at that age. Durant is the already better than Lebron in my eyes. this year in playoffs he shot a better shooting% even though Lebron's shots were primarily in the post and in the paint. I really think OKC should have won the finals too. The Heat were receiving the benefit of the whistle at key points in the game since the Celtics ECF. Rondo almost knocked them out. Rondo is probobly better than Lebron too in short spurts. If Rondo had Lebron's size HAHAHAH. OMG talk about insanity. Don't get me wrong, Lebron is the still the best right now. But seeing how Durant is on the rise its not going to be for much longer. And Lebron still has yet to prove he can lead a team to victory multiple times. 1 ring isn't enough to put him into the same sentence as Kobe yet. Maybe with 4 rings you can start comparing them. I still wouldn't however, seeing as how Kobe is a shooting gaurd and Lebron is a small forward.

lookie8
08-29-2012, 01:39 PM
Stfu dude. Its hilarious how people bring kobe being accused of Rape. If you were a girl and one of the greatest(and highest paid) athletes in the world says he want to have sex with you, umm I'm pretty sure 99% of girls would say yes. Money, Sex, Power. If you have one of those three you can get the other two. And when she went in to get tested this whore had semen from other men in her panties so its pretty obvious she was a money hungry whore. Kobe even offered a settlement which the girl accepted. Do you think that if she was truly "raped" that money would be enough to get over the emotional and mental harm he would have made? No so get out of here. Its like saying if Jessica Alba or Scarlett Johansson walked into your town and wanted to F your brains out you would say no. Hell you would probably suck up lebron if he asked you too.

Wilt the Stilt Chamberlain. Didn't he admit to having sex with thousands of women in his lifetime?:confused:

And for anyone saying Lebron is already better than Kobe your insane. Kobe at 27 was averaging 35.5 PPG 1.8 SPG shooting 45% 5 RPG while playing with grabage. Kwame Brown was so bad that even Jordan talks smack about him. Kwame is the guy that didn't want to receive a pass because he didn't think he was going to make it in. I'm sorry but Lebron at 27 is playing with two top top 5 players at their positions. Kobe didn't Have anywhere near that much help when he was 27. I'm sure if he did he would already have more rings than Jordan already had he received equivalent help at that age. Durant is the already better than Lebron in my eyes. this year in playoffs he shot a better shooting% even though Lebron's shots were primarily in the post and in the paint. I really think OKC should have won the finals too. The Heat were receiving the benefit of the whistle at key points in the game since the Celtics ECF. Rondo almost knocked them out. Rondo is probobly better than Lebron too in short spurts. If Rondo had Lebron's size HAHAHAH. OMG talk about insanity. Don't get me wrong, Lebron is the still the best right now. But seeing how Durant is on the rise its not going to be for much longer. And Lebron still has yet to prove he can lead a team to victory multiple times. 1 ring isn't enough to put him into the same sentence as Kobe yet. Maybe with 4 rings you can start comparing them. I still wouldn't however, seeing as how Kobe is a shooting gaurd and Lebron is a small forward.

Sorry, I won't STFU.

Wilt bedded in the vicinity of 2000 women.

How many accused him of rape?

Heatcheck
08-29-2012, 01:47 PM
Obviously, I say so.

Should a rapist be respected?

cmon with that rapist ****. You know how many women lie on men everyday. she had cum stained panties on at the examination. she lied to detectives, she's a schizo.

Considering you werent there, and this isnt exactly open and shut case. its hard to understand your conviction in calling the man a rapist.

Heatcheck
08-29-2012, 01:48 PM
Sorry, I won't STFU.

Wilt bedded in the vicinity of 2000 women.

How many accused him of rape?

different times back then, and different views on womens rights. women didnt just come out and accuse people of rape, they usually kept it to themselves, or in many cases were shamed into keeping quit. not to say he probably did, but if he did, you wouldnt have found out about it.

Faneik
08-29-2012, 02:00 PM
1. He didn't refuse to play for the team that drafted him but it was well known he wanted to play for the lakers(2 totally different things)
2.so it's all Kobe's fault right? Shaq is not at fault at all?
3. Anyone who still brings the rape case is a moron and someone who has run out of things to say to derail kobe from his throne
4. Last time I checked last year Kobe did pass the ball in the clutch a few times but his teammates usually messed up mainly(gasol) but don't Come to me with that Kobe had that important assist he gave to Ron when he made that 3 pointer to basically win game 7 of the 2010 NBA finals

Celtics fans are jealous because they've never had a player as great as Kobe Bryant

don't call me a moron
he's a rapist. many people tend to not like guys who force themselves into women.

jealous? hell no. player as great as Kobe? have you ever heard of Larry Bird and/or Bill Russell? nba started way before 1996

AlmostThere
08-29-2012, 02:03 PM
1. when someone says playing for the team that drafted him would be an "impossibility", im pretty sure that qualifies, doesnt matter if its because he liked the lakers or disliked charlotte.
2. yes, when you tell on a teamate to get the press off your back, (whether he meant to get shaq in trouble or not is irrelevant) your a snitch

At the end of the day, we watch basketball players for their ability to play ball. Kobes morals and values have nothing to do with how he plays ball.

Disliking him as a man is one thing, but to judge what he's accomplished or what type of player he is based on his off court dealings is stupid.

His agent is the one that said playing for Charlotte was an impossibility. And the trade for him wasn't truly a trade for kobe in my eyes. It was a trade for a draft pick. And it was completed before the draft. The hornets were then told to pick kobe 5 minutes before the draft by the Lakers FO.

And part of that feud was Phil's fault. He developed their relationship by making them compete with each other.

Heatcheck
08-29-2012, 02:11 PM
His agent is the one that said playing for Charlotte was an impossibility. And the trade for him wasn't truly a trade for kobe in my eyes. It was a trade for a draft pick. And it was completed before the draft. The hornets were then told to pick kobe 5 minutes before the draft by the Lakers FO.

And part of that feud was Phil's fault. He developed their relationship by making them compete with each other.


HUH? so how does that change anything? yeah, the actual words didnt come out of his mouth, therefore he had nothing to do with the decision, he let his agent decide what was best for him? Its obvious, if someone is asking you about a team drafting you, that they plan on picking you, and if your agent says its an impossibility, it means you dont want to play there.

And no one said jack about any feud. He called kobe a snitch, which he is. all that feud stuff and why shaq really left, is irrelevant. he snitched on his teammate period.

rasheed34
08-29-2012, 02:14 PM
Lol he doesnt have to, to be considered better than lebron. He already is.

Imma huge MIA fan, but for real Kobes a good player, its just that hes a Beeeeatch, and I aint hating, im only bein real

AlmostThere
08-29-2012, 02:14 PM
imo, 4 reasons:

1. refusing to play for the team that drafted him
2. kobe/shaq feud
3. rapist
4. ballhog who doesn't trust his teammates the ball in crunch time

1. Hornets trade draft pick for Vlade Divac. Trade is completed before it was known who Hornets would draft. Lakers office tells them to pick Kobe.
2.Kobe/Shaq/Phil Jackson relationship helps win 3 titles.
3. Accused of rape by a maid. Maid shows up to get tested and has semen(from other men) covered panties. Receives a settlement and forgets about it like it was a small incident. Cuz Rape is easy for get over when your getting paid right? Wrong
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3bOSNHel5o cuz passing to your PF when hes on the low block isn't trusting your teamate. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Made some necessary corrections for you:D

Heatcheck
08-29-2012, 02:22 PM
1. Hornets trade draft pick for Vlade Divac. Trade is completed before it was known who Hornets would draft. Lakers office tells them to pick Kobe.
2.Kobe/Shaq/Phil Jackson relationship helps win 3 titles.
3. Accused of rape by a maid. Maid shows up to get tested and has semen(from other men) covered panties. Receives a settlement and forgets about it like it was a small incident. Cuz Rape is easy for get over when your getting paid right? Wrong
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3bOSNHel5o cuz passing to your PF when hes on the low block isn't trusting your teamate. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Made some necessary corrections for you:D

1. trade doesnt happen if Kobe doesnt , im sorry, if his agent doesnt state he cant play for the hornets
2. what he accomplished doesnt change how it ended (and im pretty sure him telling on shaq had more to do with it than phil making them compete against each other)
3. with you all the way on this one
4. he took 23 a game shots last year, and shot like 43%. the man is a ballhog.

Captain Moroni
08-29-2012, 02:24 PM
have to wait until both careers are over to gauge this. Right now? not even close, Kobe is active King, MJ is alltime King.

Faneik
08-29-2012, 02:36 PM
1. Hornets trade draft pick for Vlade Divac. Trade is completed before it was known who Hornets would draft. Lakers office tells them to pick Kobe.
2.Kobe/Shaq/Phil Jackson relationship helps win 3 titles.
3. Accused of rape by a maid. Maid shows up to get tested and has semen(from other men) covered panties. Receives a settlement and forgets about it like it was a small incident. Cuz Rape is easy for get over when your getting paid right? Wrong
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3bOSNHel5o cuz passing to your PF when hes on the low block isn't trusting your teamate. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Made some necessary corrections for you:D

1. kobe worked out for the lakers. lakers liked him and told him they wanted him. therefore kobe and his agent put the pressure on the hornets, by saying he wouldn't play for them.

2. kobe wanted to be the man. shaq left and was champ in miami with wade.

3. kobe's statement to the girl he raped: "First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo. "

4. you provide 1 vid of kobe passing the ball and expect me to believe he isn't a ballhog? come on... btw, do you remember the countless fadeaway contested 3's he misses when the game is near the end? lol, and then he loses the game and shakes his head like he doesn't have enough help.

you are not in a position to correct anyone here. trust me on that.

lose the facepalm's. that's for kids.

AlmostThere
08-29-2012, 02:37 PM
HUH? so how does that change anything? yeah, the actual words didnt come out of his mouth, therefore he had nothing to do with the decision, he let his agent decide what was best for him? Its obvious, if someone is asking you about a team drafting you, that they plan on picking you, and if your agent says its an impossibility, it means you dont want to play there.

And no one said jack about any feud. He called kobe a snitch, which he is. all that feud stuff and why shaq really left, is irrelevant. he snitched on his teammate period.

Your right he did have something to do with it. But his agent didn't have to go out and say what he did. Least keep it quiet.

I see what your saying but what exactly did he snitch. Are you talking about when he was being investigated by police and he told an investigator about how Shaq dealt with that stuff? I'm pretty sure that anything pertaining to an investigation is supposed to be kept confidential. He didn't have to say what he did but he learned a lesson. Don't trust women or the police hahaha. Especially when your a minority

Heatcheck
08-29-2012, 02:59 PM
Your right he did have something to do with it. But his agent didn't have to go out and say what he did. Least keep it quiet.

I see what your saying but what exactly did he snitch. Are you talking about when he was being investigated by police and he told an investigator about how Shaq dealt with that stuff? I'm pretty sure that anything pertaining to an investigation is supposed to be kept confidential. He didn't have to say what he did but he learned a lesson. Don't trust women or the police hahaha. Especially when your a minority

1. Agreed, you keep it quiet, but the fact remains he didnt want to play in charlotte, the team that had every right to draft him to their team.
2. thats how all snitching works, its all SUPPOSE to be confidential, the fact that it got out when it wasnt suppose to, doesnt change the fact that he put another man out there like that, who had nothing to do with his situation.


He got sloppy, and knocked down the wrong random chick, which as you said cant be trusted. he handled it like a child though.

AlmostThere
08-29-2012, 03:21 PM
1. kobe worked out for the lakers. lakers liked him and told him they wanted him. therefore kobe and his agent put the pressure on the hornets, by saying he wouldn't play for them.

2. kobe wanted to be the man. shaq left and was champ in miami with wade.

3. kobe's statement to the girl he raped: "First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo. "

4. you provide 1 vid of kobe passing the ball and expect me to believe he isn't a ballhog? come on... btw, do you remember the countless fadeaway contested 3's he misses when the game is near the end? lol, and then he loses the game and shakes his head like he doesn't have enough help.

you are not in a position to correct anyone here. trust me on that.

lose the facepalm's. that's for kids.

You make valid point about those 2 first things. But you know what Phil also wanted kobe to lead the team from then on.

your 3. i find to be what anyone in a similar situation should say. What if he went out and said something along the lines of. Yeah i had sex with her and she wanted me to. or if he flat out denied it completely? Cuz he did have sex with her. Do you think he would had an easy time defending himself in court. He was doing what his agent told him to do. Apologize. Hell if i was him i would have done the same thing if i was wrongly accused of rape. Not saying he did or he didn't Its all speculation but im going with what the court ruled. And if i was raped, no amount of money would be enough to correct the damage done to me. Yet this chick takes a settlement and forgets about it.

4.http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/avgAssists/qualified/false/position/shooting-guards Only 2 shooting guards had more assists than him last season. Im pretty sure 3rd in the NBA isn't too bad. And you know what, he does take ill advised shots. He also makes some of those shots. He gets paid to score. This season we will see how he does as far as FG% goes now that he has someone who can set him up for a wide open shot and people to pass to that will knock down some shots. Cuz face it Once Odom left. Kobe and the other players were forced to handle the ball more and take over his offensive contributions to the team.

Lets face it though, seeing as how your a Celtics fan your going to be a little biased on your assessment of any Lakers player. I'm a Basketball fan that roots for Lakers and Bulls. I still don't talk crap about Rondo based on his Shooting or his comments to the press. You know why? Because shooting isn't
the main part of his game. He is a great player And comments made to press shouldn't even be brought into consideration when we are talking basketball.

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-29-2012, 03:24 PM
1. trade doesnt happen if Kobe doesnt , im sorry, if his agent doesnt state he cant play for the hornets
2. what he accomplished doesnt change how it ended (and im pretty sure him telling on shaq had more to do with it than phil making them compete against each other)
3. with you all the way on this one
4. he took 23 a game shots last year, and shot like 43%. the man is a ballhog.

Is Durant a ball hog as well? Last time I checked Kobe averaged 5 assist a game to Durant 2, so please enough with the ball hog bull ****

Heatcheck
08-29-2012, 03:34 PM
Is Durant a ball hog as well? Last time I checked Kobe averaged 5 assist a game to Durant 2, so please enough with the ball hog bull ****

no my friend, if you round up for kobe, you round up for durant as well. Durant had 2.8ast (3ast) and kobe had 4.6ast (5), a whopping 1.8ast (2ast) difference.

Compared to Kobe taking 23 shots per to Durants 18 per,
and scoring 1ppg more, while shooting a below average 43%, compared to 50% which is ****ing stellar.

In other words the thunder got the same production from their star, and got an extra 410 possesions to spare (possesions that probably ended up in points scroed).

AlmostThere
08-29-2012, 03:50 PM
no my friend, if you round up for kobe, you round up for durant as well. Durant had 2.8ast (3ast) and kobe had 4.6ast (5), a whopping 1.8ast (2ast) difference.

Compared to Kobe taking 23 shots per to Durants 18 per,
and scoring 1ppg more, while shooting a below average 43%, compared to 50% which is ****ing stellar.

In other words the thunder got the same production from their star, and got an extra 410 possesions to spare (possesions that probably ended up in points scroed).

I don't like the comparison from Durant to Kobe. Different positions, different styles of play. Durant has more catch and shoot opportunities than kobe and also can shoot right over a majority of people that guard him, kinda like kobe in his prime. Also Kobe is 33. Durant is 24?25? Big difference. Kobe is on the decline as far as athleticism is concerned. Durant is also playing off the ball a lot. A opportunity Kobe hasn't had yet. He's never really had a Westbrook or Harden caliber player to create for him like Durant has. Kobe is usually running the offense for the lakers, Durant rarely does that and when he tried to handle the ball too much in the finals, his TO numbers went up a bit.

All in all, this isn't a fair comparison.

mightybosstone
08-29-2012, 04:20 PM
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Kobe in his prime scored 81 points in a single game, scored 62 in three quarters, had 4 consecutive games of 50 or more, and won two titles as the finals MVP. Kobe's prime was ridiculous as far as an individual talent. No way that Lebron can even touch that. Even Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith agree on this one. When it comes to advanced stats however, Lebron is the man and Kobe cannot touch him. As far as winning, breaking countless scoring records, one on one play, fundamentals, being clutch and carrying a team on their back...Kobe far surpasses Lebron.
Lol.... Are you really using individual regular season game accomplishments as a way to argue peak careers? Fail. Let's take a look at Kobe's best season and compare them to Lebron's three MVP seasons and you tell me who had the better peak:

Kobe: 05-06 - 35.4/4.3/4.5/1.8/0.4 with .559 TS%, 28.0 PER, .224 WS/48

Lebron: 08-09- 28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1 with .591 TS%, 31.7 PER, .318 WS/48
09-10- 29.7/7.3/8.6/1.6/1.0 with .604 TS%, 31.1 PER, .299 WS/48
11-12- 27.1/7.9/6.2/1.9/0.8 with .605 TS%, 30.7 PER, .298 WS/48

For the record, Kobe's highest PER (28, which he only came close to once) and WS/48 (.224) was surpassed by Lebron in 6 out of 9 seasons. Also, you're so quick to give Kobe credit for titles that he didn't win alone and for Finals MVPs, but how about the fact that Lebron has 3 MVPs already and Kobe only has one, which was more of a lifetime achievement award than a true MVP.

And don't give me this "carrying a team on his back" ********. Lebron did the same thing in Cleveland and got no freaking credit for it. Kobe did absolutely jack **** without Shaq or Pau, but everyone treats him like royalty. Bottom line. If you had nearly identical rosters and you had a choice between taking prime Lebron or prime Kobe, I'd take prime Lebron 9 times out of 10. He's better in nearly every facet of the game and he would make your team better than Kobe would. Period.

beliges
08-29-2012, 04:39 PM
Lol.... Are you really using individual regular season game accomplishments as a way to argue peak careers? Fail. Let's take a look at Kobe's best season and compare them to Lebron's three MVP seasons and you tell me who had the better peak:

Kobe: 05-06 - 35.4/4.3/4.5/1.8/0.4 with .559 TS%, 28.0 PER, .224 WS/48

Lebron: 08-09- 28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1 with .591 TS%, 31.7 PER, .318 WS/48
09-10- 29.7/7.3/8.6/1.6/1.0 with .604 TS%, 31.1 PER, .299 WS/48
11-12- 27.1/7.9/6.2/1.9/0.8 with .605 TS%, 30.7 PER, .298 WS/48

For the record, Kobe's highest PER (28, which he only came close to once) and WS/48 (.224) was surpassed by Lebron in 6 out of 9 seasons. Also, you're so quick to give Kobe credit for titles that he didn't win alone and for Finals MVPs, but how about the fact that Lebron has 3 MVPs already and Kobe only has one, which was more of a lifetime achievement award than a true MVP.

And don't give me this "carrying a team on his back" ********. Lebron did the same thing in Cleveland and got no freaking credit for it. Kobe did absolutely jack **** without Shaq or Pau, but everyone treats him like royalty. Bottom line. If you had nearly identical rosters and you had a choice between taking prime Lebron or prime Kobe, I'd take prime Lebron 9 times out of 10. He's better in nearly every facet of the game and he would make your team better than Kobe would. Period.

Enough with these PERs and W/S and all these other crap stats. You cannot possibly be comparing a players' greatness through what a fabricated mathematical formula is generating for you. Sure Lebron's PER is better. Good for him. Obviously hes a tremendous player, but for someone to say so and so is better than another player because so and so has a higher PER or a higher W/S is just plain dumb.

Lets just end these non-sensical discussions already. It seems like whenever actual accomplishments and real stats dont back a person's opinion, they revert to using these fabricated, new-age stats as the end all and be all.

beliges
08-29-2012, 04:41 PM
Kobe's career accomplishments and his career resume is up there in the top 5. In other words, there are no more than 5 players that have ever played the game of basketball that have achieved as much success and dominance in terms of winning/performing than Kobe has.

He is disrespected because he is still in the league playing. Once he retires and hes gone, people will give him the real credit he deserves. The funny part is, he has a great chance at winning another title or two within the next 3-4 years before he calls it quits.

mightybosstone
08-29-2012, 04:46 PM
Enough with these PERs and W/S and all these other crap stats. You cannot possibly be comparing a players' greatness through what a fabricated mathematical formula is generating for you. Sure Lebron's PER is better. Good for him. Obviously hes a tremendous player, but for someone to say so and so is better than another player because so and so has a higher PER or a higher W/S is just plain dumb.j
Why? Should we use points and rebounds per game? Because those are technically just "fabricated mathematical formulas" as well. Every stat is. The difference between stats like PER and WS/48 is that they actually try to take efficiency into a count and a player's use in multiple areas.


Lets just end these non-sensical discussions already. It seems like whenever actual accomplishments and real stats dont back a person's opinion, they revert to using these fabricated, new-age stats as the end all and be all.
Lol. What a joke. How about this extremely simple statistic then. Lebron has 3 MVPs. Kobe has 1. Therefore, Lebron > Kobe. Is this simple enough for you to understand or should I hire a tutor to explain it to you? If you don't understand basketball statistics and refuse to understand how they work because you're too stubborn or too ignorant, you should just stand aside and let adults talk.

mightybosstone
08-29-2012, 04:48 PM
Kobe's career accomplishments and his career resume is up there in the top 5. In other words, there are no more than 5 players that have ever played the game of basketball that have achieved as much success and dominance in terms of winning/performing than Kobe has.

He is disrespected because he is still in the league playing. Once he retires and hes gone, people will give him the real credit he deserves. The funny part is, he has a great chance at winning another title or two within the next 3-4 years before he calls it quits.

I don't understand how Kobe is in any way "disrespected." I've got the guy in my all-time top 10 in terms of careers and I think almost any educated basketball fan would have him in at least their top 15-20. Just because I think Lebron's peak is better and that he will go down as the better player when their careers are over does not mean I'm disrespecting him.

AlmostThere
08-29-2012, 05:09 PM
Why? Should we use points and rebounds per game? Because those are technically just "fabricated mathematical formulas" as well. Every stat is. The difference between stats like PER and WS/48 is that they actually try to take efficiency into a count and a player's use in multiple areas.


Lol. What a joke. How about this extremely simple statistic then. Lebron has 3 MVPs. Kobe has 1. Therefore, Lebron > Kobe. Is this simple enough for you to understand or should I hire a tutor to explain it to you? If you don't understand basketball statistics and refuse to understand how they work because you're too stubborn or too ignorant, you should just stand aside and let adults talk.

MVP's Don't make you better than someone else. Kobe could have easily won one or both of Lebrons 09 and 10 MVP. The reason i will always rank Kobe>Lebron is because Kobe is a better decision maker in the closing minutes of the game and when it counts. I have never seen Kobe go missing like Lebron did in the 2010 ECF. And that was supposed to be one of his MVP seasons

Chronz
08-29-2012, 05:10 PM
Enough with these PERs and W/S and all these other crap stats.

It seems like whenever actual accomplishments and real stats dont back a person's opinion, they revert to using these fabricated, new-age stats as the end all and be all.

Real stats and real accomplishment do back them. With regards to your evaluation of APBR metrics, well, real stats are just simple tallies that dont account for usage, pace and efficiency. PER and WS are basically 2 separate ways of measuring the influence those variables have on stats.

What your basically asking from people who use all sorts of statistical analysis, is to trust your opinion of what those stats mean over objective forms of research.

So when it comes to stats, what makes you smarter than the people who work for NBA teams?

MadBomber
08-29-2012, 05:10 PM
lol.... Are you really using individual regular season game accomplishments as a way to argue peak careers? Fail. Let's take a look at kobe's best season and compare them to lebron's three mvp seasons and you tell me who had the better peak:

Kobe: 05-06 - 35.4/4.3/4.5/1.8/0.4 with .559 ts%, 28.0 per, .224 ws/48

lebron: 08-09- 28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1 with .591 ts%, 31.7 per, .318 ws/48
09-10- 29.7/7.3/8.6/1.6/1.0 with .604 ts%, 31.1 per, .299 ws/48
11-12- 27.1/7.9/6.2/1.9/0.8 with .605 ts%, 30.7 per, .298 ws/48

for the record, kobe's highest per (28, which he only came close to once) and ws/48 (.224) was surpassed by lebron in 6 out of 9 seasons. Also, you're so quick to give kobe credit for titles that he didn't win alone and for finals mvps, but how about the fact that lebron has 3 mvps already and kobe only has one, which was more of a lifetime achievement award than a true mvp.

And don't give me this "carrying a team on his back" ********. Lebron did the same thing in cleveland and got no freaking credit for it. Kobe did absolutely jack **** without shaq or pau, but everyone treats him like royalty. Bottom line. If you had nearly identical rosters and you had a choice between taking prime lebron or prime kobe, i'd take prime lebron 9 times out of 10. He's better in nearly every facet of the game and he would make your team better than kobe would. Period.

+1

Chronz
08-29-2012, 05:15 PM
MVP's Don't make you better than someone else. Kobe could have easily won one or both of Lebrons 09 and 10 MVP. The reason i will always rank Kobe>Lebron is because Kobe is a better decision maker in the closing minutes of the game and when it counts. I have never seen Kobe go missing like Lebron did in the 2010 ECF. And that was supposed to be one of his MVP seasons

You need to watch more games then, Kobe has gone ghost before, and hes done it against a mediocre defensive team to boot.

MadBomber
08-29-2012, 05:16 PM
you need to watch more games then, kobe has gone ghost before, and hes done it against a mediocre defensive team to boot.

+1

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 05:19 PM
MVP's Don't make you better than someone else. Kobe could have easily won one or both of Lebrons 09 and 10 MVP.

He was simply saying if you want to pick some stupid way of measuring it, like rings, why not use something else stupid, like MVP. Furthermore, no way in hell Kobe outplayed LeBron either year, nor has he the last 4 years.


The reason i will always rank Kobe>Lebron is because Kobe is a better decision maker in the closing minutes of the game and when it counts. I have never seen Kobe go missing like Lebron did in the 2010 ECF. And that was supposed to be one of his MVP seasons

Have you actually watched Kobe? He has disappeared plenty of times before...

Rumar1978
08-29-2012, 05:34 PM
first of, i think whoever came up with this question is just bored, and has nothing to else to do in their life. i don't really see him as one of or the most disrespected athlete ever. to me it's likely that people out there feel at times that there's a flamboyance and a style that people don't like at times. but kobe is a very competitive guy, and just loves to play and play for the ring.
people out there, just feels threaten by kobe's greatness, cause of the public's love for jordan, michael is the cause of all this. but that's not going to stop kobe for being who he is, and present the style that he possesses.
he is in great position to win more rings than jordan, with the talent that he's surrounded with. i think that who ever came up with this question, is just creating drama for no reason, there's no such thing as one of or the most disrespected basketball star ever in kobe, people respect his game and his talent, and hard work. if there is a disrespect, it all comes from respecting greatness, knowing that you're recognized for who you are as a player,
you expect to get that attention from fans. if they boo you, it comes from respect.

beliges
08-29-2012, 05:45 PM
Real stats and real accomplishment do back them. With regards to your evaluation of APBR metrics, well, real stats are just simple tallies that dont account for usage, pace and efficiency. PER and WS are basically 2 separate ways of measuring the influence those variables have on stats.

What your basically asking from people who use all sorts of statistical analysis, is to trust your opinion of what those stats mean over objective forms of research.

So when it comes to stats, what makes you smarter than the people who work for NBA teams?

Let me put it to you in simpler terms.

People can skew statistics any which way they want to when using fabricated metrics and subjective formulas. Those stats you mentioned are nothing but a formula someone has subjectively made up. Thats all they are. Thats is NOT my opinion, but rather, it is exactly what it is. And what makes it worse is the fact that there is no consistency in the formula. For example, if you calculate the top 10 leaders in PER or W/S, they are nowhere near who the top 10 players would be.

Now its all fun when having debates on these new-age stats. But people tend to use these types of stats when actual accomplishments and actual achievements are not in favor of theyre opinion. There is no disproving what a player actually accomplished throughout their career. PER and W/S is nice to get another perspective. However, it is nowhere near as persuasive an authority as some people here tend to make them out to be. If they were consistent in accuracy, that might change my opinion. But the fact that they are unreliable when it comes to consistency, coupled with the fact that it is a completely fabricated stat, makes it so that it makes it pretty much irrelevant when discussing a player's greatness.

SteBO
08-29-2012, 05:54 PM
Let me put it to you in simpler terms.

People can skew statistics any which way they want to when using fabricated metrics and subjective formulas. Those stats you mentioned are nothing but a formula someone has subjectively made up. Thats all they are. Thats is NOT my opinion, but rather, it is exactly what it is. And what makes it worse is the fact that there is no consistency in the formula. For example, if you calculate the top 10 leaders in PER or W/S, they are nowhere near who the top 10 players would be.

Now its all fun when having debates on these new-age stats. But people tend to use these types of stats when actual accomplishments and actual achievements are not in favor of theyre opinion. There is no disproving what a player actually accomplished throughout their career. PER and W/S is nice to get another perspective. However, it is nowhere near as persuasive an authority as some people here tend to make them out to be. If they were consistent in accuracy, that might change my opinion. But the fact that they are unreliable when it comes to consistency, coupled with the fact that it is a completely fabricated stat, makes it so that it makes it pretty much irrelevant when discussing a player's greatness.
I agree with you to an extent, but those stats aren't really fabricated. They're just another way to add light to certain aspects of the game that you probably can't really see in a real time game scenario. I mean, anybody can conveniently gloss over certain things in regards to a players accomplishments, but that also works in vice versa.

AlmostThere
08-29-2012, 05:55 PM
He was simply saying if you want to pick some stupid way of measuring it, like rings, why not use something else stupid, like MVP. Furthermore, no way in hell Kobe outplayed LeBron either year, nor has he the last 4 years.



Have you actually watched Kobe? He has disappeared plenty of times before...

misread it.

Kobe is Currently 34. Lebron is 27. Of course he hasn't. I'm talking about when the he supposed to be the MVP. The Year Kobe was MVP he got to the finals. Scored 30.1 PPG with .479 FG%. In the Finals that year. He didn't mess up as much as lebron did in ECF in 2010 and Finals in 2011. Last year was hilarious for me. He just kept shooting 3 and mid range jumpshots even thought thats probobly the worst asset of his game.

What I'm trying to say is that Kobe had an argument for MVP in 09 and 10.

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-29-2012, 06:14 PM
He was simply saying if you want to pick some stupid way of measuring it, like rings, why not use something else stupid, like MVP. Furthermore, no way in hell Kobe outplayed LeBron either year, nor has he the last 4 years.



Have you actually watched Kobe? He has disappeared plenty of times before...

Last time I checked Kobe was still the best player in the MBA in 09 10' idk where u get lebrons been>Kobe for 4 years it's been 2 at best

bucketss
08-29-2012, 06:26 PM
misread it.

Kobe is Currently 34. Lebron is 27. Of course he hasn't. I'm talking about when the he supposed to be the MVP. The Year Kobe was MVP he got to the finals. Scored 30.1 PPG with .479 FG%. In the Finals that year. He didn't mess up as much as lebron did in ECF in 2010 and Finals in 2011. Last year was hilarious for me. He just kept shooting 3 and mid range jumpshots even thought thats probobly the worst asset of his game.

What I'm trying to say is that Kobe had an argument for MVP in 09 and 10.

he only had 2 good games in the finals, and he absolutely choked in game 4. also kobe didn't have an argument in neither of those years '10 lebron was far and away the mvp, 09' it was between either wade or him many believe wade should have gotten it. and funny thing is kobes lone mvp should have went to chris paul in reality.

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-29-2012, 06:29 PM
Lol.... Are you really using individual regular season game accomplishments as a way to argue peak careers? Fail. Let's take a look at Kobe's best season and compare them to Lebron's three MVP seasons and you tell me who had the better peak:

Kobe: 05-06 - 35.4/4.3/4.5/1.8/0.4 with .559 TS%, 28.0 PER, .224 WS/48

Lebron: 08-09- 28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1 with .591 TS%, 31.7 PER, .318 WS/48
09-10- 29.7/7.3/8.6/1.6/1.0 with .604 TS%, 31.1 PER, .299 WS/48
11-12- 27.1/7.9/6.2/1.9/0.8 with .605 TS%, 30.7 PER, .298 WS/48

For the record, Kobe's highest PER (28, which he only came close to once) and WS/48 (.224) was surpassed by Lebron in 6 out of 9 seasons. Also, you're so quick to give Kobe credit for titles that he didn't win alone and for Finals MVPs, but how about the fact that Lebron has 3 MVPs already and Kobe only has one, which was more of a lifetime achievement award than a true MVP.

And don't give me this "carrying a team on his back" ********. Lebron did the same thing in Cleveland and got no freaking credit for it. Kobe did absolutely jack **** without Shaq or Pau, but everyone treats him like royalty. Bottom line. If you had nearly identical rosters and you had a choice between taking prime Lebron or prime Kobe, I'd take prime Lebron 9 times out of 10. He's better in nearly every facet of the game and he would make your team better than Kobe would. Period.


Lol Kobe or lebron both in there primes? Who am I taking? Kobe easily lol well maybe not on PSD but anywhere is, they would choose Kobe from NBA players to the media heck they still do now to a certain extent, what did Dwight say 2 years ago, Yupp that kobe would be the player he would want to play with the most and guess what he got his wish

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-29-2012, 06:30 PM
he only had 2 good games in the finals, and he absolutely choked in game 4. also kobe didn't have an argument in neither of those years '10 lebron was far and away the mvp, 09' it was between either wade or him many believe wade should have gotten it. and funny thing is kobes lone mvp should have went to chris paul in reality.

Haters gonna hate smh your delusional

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-29-2012, 06:34 PM
Why? Should we use points and rebounds per game? Because those are technically just "fabricated mathematical formulas" as well. Every stat is. The difference between stats like PER and WS/48 is that they actually try to take efficiency into a count and a player's use in multiple areas.


Lol. What a joke. How about this extremely simple statistic then. Lebron has 3 MVPs. Kobe has 1. Therefore, Lebron > Kobe. Is this simple enough for you to understand or should I hire a tutor to explain it to you? If you don't understand basketball statistics and refuse to understand how they work because you're too stubborn or too ignorant, you should just stand aside and let adults talk.

Your the one that sounds like a child here, advanced stats are meaningless

TEXASTITAN
08-29-2012, 06:36 PM
Dude got off scot free after raping that girl in Colorado years back he deserves no respect on or off the court. I know all the Bryant fanboys disagree and dispute what he did but just because he paid her off to let it go doesn't mean it never happened. Bryant is a sub human piece of **** end of story so he can put a ball in a hoop big Fkn deal still a punk *** thug who isn't a man.

bucketss
08-29-2012, 06:43 PM
Haters gonna hate smh your delusional

show me one thing that was delusional and i will leave this thread and never talk of kobe again

SaimuKala
08-29-2012, 06:44 PM
You need to watch more games then, Kobe has gone ghost before, and hes done it against a mediocre defensive team to boot.

Your sig is so sick :clap:

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-29-2012, 06:46 PM
Dude got off scot free after raping that girl in Colorado years back he deserves no respect on or off the court. I know all the Bryant fanboys disagree and dispute what he did but just because he paid her off to let it go doesn't mean it never happened. Bryant is a sub human piece of **** end of story so he can put a ball in a hoop big Fkn deal still a punk *** thug who isn't a man.

Cool story bro :facepalm:

Hawkeye15
08-29-2012, 07:25 PM
Last time I checked Kobe was still the best player in the MBA in 09 10' idk where u get lebrons been>Kobe for 4 years it's been 2 at best

My opinion stems from LeBron being the better player that year.

Chronz
08-29-2012, 09:09 PM
Let me put it to you in simpler terms.

People can skew statistics any which way they want to when using fabricated metrics and subjective formulas.
Again, people can misuse statistics much more simply when using raw stats that fail to account for the variables I mentioned. So we're back to the beginning, why would I trust your opinion of the value of stats over guys who actually work in the NBA?? Its one thing if you dont like stats, just dont use them or mention them period, otherwise I dont see what makes you so credible on which stats are proper.

keetyweedy
08-29-2012, 09:18 PM
he will be considered better than lebron solely because he took it and it wasn't given to him unlike lebron, who pretty much had everything laid out on a silver platter before he even step foot on the court(not saying lebron doesnt deserve it)

3RDASYSTEM
08-29-2012, 09:53 PM
Negative KEETYWEEDY,KB would have taken it if he would have won 5 ships in CHARLOTTEVILLE and elevated that franchise instead of STEVE FRANCHISIN tagging along his way to the storied franchise of LA(only CELTS have equal of more clout), i call that a 'frontfrunner'..him and MAGIC, they can ball,but its still frontrunning cause MAGIC said either ALCINDOR/LA or he was going back to MICH ST.

AI/JORDAN took it, LEBRON took it at first pulled a MAGIC/KB 8yrs later and gets killed for it..go figure....KB would have been like his 05-07 seasons in LA but for longer duration ,sorta like AI in SIXER tenure....scoring titles with no rings

amos1er
08-29-2012, 10:01 PM
Real stats and real accomplishment do back them. With regards to your evaluation of APBR metrics, well, real stats are just simple tallies that dont account for usage, pace and efficiency. PER and WS are basically 2 separate ways of measuring the influence those variables have on stats.

What your basically asking from people who use all sorts of statistical analysis, is to trust your opinion of what those stats mean over objective forms of research.

So when it comes to stats, what makes you smarter than the people who work for NBA teams?

Seriously Cronz, what makes these precious stats of yours so concrete? Why do they have to be the end all be all in evaluating a player? I mean seriously, NBA.com doesn't even mention PER or WS, nor do they sanction them. 90% of the most accomplished basketball analysts don't give your new age advanced stats any sort of credibility. In fact, other than John Hollinger (a known Laker/Kobe hater) or some internet forum geeks, no one else is really taking these stats of yours very seriously. That said, I must respectfully ask...why do you and why should I?

amos1er
08-29-2012, 10:21 PM
Let me put it to you in simpler terms.

People can skew statistics any which way they want to when using fabricated metrics and subjective formulas. Those stats you mentioned are nothing but a formula someone has subjectively made up. Thats all they are. Thats is NOT my opinion, but rather, it is exactly what it is. And what makes it worse is the fact that there is no consistency in the formula. For example, if you calculate the top 10 leaders in PER or W/S, they are nowhere near who the top 10 players would be.

Now its all fun when having debates on these new-age stats. But people tend to use these types of stats when actual accomplishments and actual achievements are not in favor of theyre opinion. There is no disproving what a player actually accomplished throughout their career. PER and W/S is nice to get another perspective. However, it is nowhere near as persuasive an authority as some people here tend to make them out to be. If they were consistent in accuracy, that might change my opinion. But the fact that they are unreliable when it comes to consistency, coupled with the fact that it is a completely fabricated stat, makes it so that it makes it pretty much irrelevant when discussing a player's greatness.

Thank you. :clap:

I've been saying this for years.

Let me give you a scenario here:

Lets just say hypothetically of course, that some bias person exists who happens to be a fan of a particular basketball team or player (Ehem...Ehem...John Hollinger). Now lets say that this person to dislike a certain basketball team or player (Ehem...Ehem...John Hollinger) Now, this person then decides that they are going to use their advanced knowledge of statistical analysis to create a formula that is supposed to measure a players greatness.

Logically, no matter how statistically sound the formula is, wouldn't it be tainted because of the element of human bias that was present upon its creation? Shouldn't a committee of some sort be required to sanction these formulas before we are to take them as canon? Why are we supposed to take just one guys formula (that hasn't been validated in any way by any sort of accredited committee) and give him a monopoly on deciding how we rank NBA individual talent?

Chronz
08-29-2012, 10:32 PM
Seriously Cronz, what makes these precious stats of yours so concrete? Why do they have to be the end all be all in evaluating a player?
LOL, plz spare me your strawman arguments, there is no end all be all stat.


I mean seriously, NBA.com doesn't even mention PER or WS, nor do they sanction them.
Well up until last year NBA.com didnt even have any sort of per possession analysis to speak of, what they did have was the nestle sponsored EFF stat that all statisticians mocked.


90% of the most accomplished basketball analysts don't give your new age advanced stats any sort of credibility.
Sounds like a made up stat, still wouldnt sway me considering actual STATISTICIANS and people who work in the NBA use them.


In fact, other than John Hollinger (a known Laker/Kobe hater) or some internet forum geeks, no one else is really taking these stats of yours very seriously.
Cool story


That said, I must respectfully ask...why do you and why should I?
Who says you have to use stats? You can definitely be one of those fans that attempts to understand the game and its players by simply watching them.

3RDASYSTEM
08-29-2012, 10:35 PM
AMOS1ER the fact that you say he was 'battling' VAN EXEL/OLD *** BYRON SCOTT just makes it more laughable when talking about being a top 5 ever

Sorry to burst your bubble but IVERSON was that good at age 17 as he was at 27 so he would have easily started with DIESEL from day 1 over VAN EXEL/SCOTT/JONES,or he would have shared same backcourt from day 1 with one of those players...easily no debate no ?,same as DIESEL/BRON/BOTH MJ'S,they would have started from day 1 anywhere when they entered league from jump,regards of coach,they talent just stands out all over the hardwood,not taken yrs to develop or start allstar games but not on your reg. season squad....its well documented

CHRONZ only reason why i chime in on IVERSON debate is only to educate...SHAQ/BRON/KG get they due and have a ring(s) so i dont have to debate much really at all on those players, along with PIERCE/DREAM/TMAC/KIDD/WILT/ALCINDOR/DRJ/BARKLEY/BOTH MJ'S/BIRD and a chosen few others

Last to my knowledge all tru 'franchise' players start from day 1(or no later than mid to late rookie yr at worst), theres no way i would consider VAN EXEL/SCOTT/JONES a tru franchise player,so KB is that player right or was he getting the NBA version of JOBA rules since he was so 'young'(aint that when you are at your best,youth?)? i think a AI/BRON and that DIESEL combo would have ran thru SA/UTAH or at least went 7, not swept 2x in 3yrs with 2 tru franchise players ...we just got diff. views and it make for good debate ..next

Chronz
08-29-2012, 10:44 PM
Lets just say hypothetically of course, that some bias person exists who happens to be a fan of a particular basketball team or player (Ehem...Ehem...John Hollinger). Now lets say that this person to dislike a certain basketball team or player (Ehem...Ehem...John Hollinger) Now, this person then decides that they are going to use their advanced knowledge of statistical analysis to create a formula that is supposed to measure a players greatness.
WTF R U talking about?


Logically, no matter how statistically sound the formula is, wouldn't it be tainted because of the element of human bias that was present upon its creation? Shouldn't a committee of some sort be required to sanction these formulas before we are to take them as canon?
There is a committee, its filled with statisticians with PhD's (Math/Physics), geophysicist, even the less established guys are economists. The movement and analysis has been stifled of late tho, with NBA teams hiring statisticians in bunches, most of the stats are kept in house.




Why are we supposed to take just one guys formula (that hasn't been validated in any way by any sort of accredited committee) and give him a monopoly on deciding how we rank NBA individual talent?
One guy? LOL linear weights in the NBA have been around forever, Hollinger simply has the most popular metric. By all means use other stats that the APBR community has lend credence to, just dont expect the results to change much.

bucketss
08-29-2012, 10:45 PM
Thank you. :clap:

I've been saying this for years.

Let me give you a scenario here:

Lets just say hypothetically of course, that some bias person exists who happens to be a fan of a particular basketball team or player (Ehem...Ehem...John Hollinger). Now lets say that this person to dislike a certain basketball team or player (Ehem...Ehem...John Hollinger) Now, this person then decides that they are going to use their advanced knowledge of statistical analysis to create a formula that is supposed to measure a players greatness.

Logically, no matter how statistically sound the formula is, wouldn't it be tainted because of the element of human bias that was present upon its creation? Shouldn't a committee of some sort be required to sanction these formulas before we are to take them as canon? Why are we supposed to take just one guys formula (that hasn't been validated in any way by any sort of accredited committee) and give him a monopoly on deciding how we rank NBA individual talent?

so hollinger hates the lakers so much he decided to make a formula to make the lakers and their players look not as good as everyone thinks?

amos1er
08-29-2012, 10:54 PM
AMOS1ER the fact that you say he was 'battling' VAN EXEL/OLD *** BYRON SCOTT just makes it more laughable when talking about being a top 5 ever

Sorry to burst your bubble but IVERSON was that good at age 17 as he was at 27 so he would have easily started with DIESEL from day 1 over VAN EXEL/SCOTT/JONES,or he would have shared same backcourt from day 1 with one of those players...easily no debate no ?,same as DIESEL/BRON/BOTH MJ'S,they would have started from day 1 anywhere when they entered league from jump,regards of coach,they talent just stands out all over the hardwood,not taken yrs to develop or start allstar games but not on your reg. season squad....its well documented

CHRONZ only reason why i chime in on IVERSON debate is only to educate...SHAQ/BRON/KG get they due and have a ring(s) so i dont have to debate much really at all on those players, along with PIERCE/DREAM/TMAC/KIDD/WILT/ALCINDOR/DRJ/BARKLEY/BOTH MJ'S/BIRD and a chosen few others

Last to my knowledge all tru 'franchise' players start from day 1, theres no way i would consider VAN EXEL/SCOTT/JONES a tru franchise player,so KB is that player right or was he getting the NBA version of JOBA rules since he was so 'young'(aint that when you are at your best,youth?)? i think a AI/BRON and that DIESEL combo would have ran thru SA/UTAH or at least went 7, not swept 2x in 3yrs with 2 tru franchise players ...we just got diff. views and it make for good debate ..next

UGH??? :confused:

///***Me TARZAN you JANE***/// :D

amos1er
08-29-2012, 10:58 PM
so hollinger hates the lakers so much he decided to make a formula to make the lakers and their players look not as good as everyone thinks?

Did I actually say that???

Nice job putting words in my mouth though.

3RDASYSTEM
08-29-2012, 11:00 PM
I'll make it easier for you

Trick ?: Whos the franchise player group IVERSON/BRON/MAGIC/JORDAN/SHAQ or VAN EXEL/BYRON SCOTT/EDDIE JONES/DIVAC? come on the former or latter, that should be simple enough for ya to comprehend

Like i said tru franchise players start from day 1, some even like BRON practice with they NBA team while still in HS technically, go figure

amos1er
08-29-2012, 11:16 PM
LOL, plz spare me your strawman arguments, there is no end all be all stat.

Exactly the point I was making.



Well up until last year NBA.com didnt even have any sort of per possession analysis to speak of, what they did have was the nestle sponsored EFF stat that all statisticians mocked.

Maybe thats because they realize that these stats are very subjective and they don't want to validate something thats not 100% legit. "All statisticians" eh...thats quite a blanket statement if I ever heard one. Can you name me even one credible statistician that has mocked it or provide at least one valid argument they have made against EFF?


Sounds like a made up stat, still wouldnt sway me considering actual STATISTICIANS and people who work in the NBA use them.

Can you find me one credible analyst other than John Hollinger that uses PER or WS in order to justify a players abilities?


Cool story

Just my two cents.


Who says you have to use stats? You can definitely be one of those fans that attempts to understand the game and its players by simply watching them.

I agree stats are not the end all be all. Nice satirical attempt at using sarcasm to throw in your Red Herring about how all people who don't use stats must be dullards who make their judgements by observation alone. Personally, I weigh heavily the opinions of former basketball greats and the NBA's most credible analysts. Most of which will agree that Kobe's prime was greater than Lebrons. Even up until 2010, MJ was of the opinion that Kobe was the better player of the two.

Although, I was giving you the opportunity to make a compelling argument otherwise. I'm always willing to keep an open mind. :D

amos1er
08-29-2012, 11:22 PM
I'll make it easier for you

Trick ?: Whos the franchise player group IVERSON/BRON/MAGIC/JORDAN/SHAQ or VAN EXEL/BYRON SCOTT/EDDIE JONES/DIVAC? come on the former or latter, that should be simple enough for ya to comprehend

Like i said tru franchise players start from day 1, some even like BRON practice with they NBA team while still in HS technically, go figure

Kobe was the first franchise guard to be drafted out of high school. Therefore he had to prove himself.

In fact, I'll go even further and say that because Kobe was one of the first to be able to prove a player drafted out of high school can become a franchise player, it paved the way for Lebron to be given the credibility he needed starting from day 1. Lebron will be the first to admit that.

amos1er
08-29-2012, 11:29 PM
WTF R U talking about?

Just proving a point that just because someone happens to possess more statistical knowledge than the norm, it doesn't mean that their opinion is automatically non bias.


There is a committee, its filled with statisticians with PhD's (Math/Physics), geophysicist, even the less established guys are economists. The movement and analysis has been stifled of late tho, with NBA teams hiring statisticians in bunches, most of the stats are kept in house.

Do you happen to know the name of this committee? Just curious because I have never heard of them.



One guy? LOL linear weights in the NBA have been around forever, Hollinger simply has the most popular metric. By all means use other stats that the APBR community has lend credence to, just dont expect the results to change much.

Bloodletting was once the "most popular" form of curing infection. Just because something is popular, doesn't mean that its the most effective.

Chronz
08-29-2012, 11:56 PM
Exactly the point I was making.
LOL then your not keeping up with the argument. This is about "new age" stats vs old school stats.



Maybe thats because they realize that these stats are very subjective and they don't want to validate something thats not 100% legit. "All statisticians" eh...thats quite a blanket statement if I ever heard one. Can you name me even one credible statistician that has mocked it or provide at least one valid argument they have made against EFF?

ALL STATISTICIANS MOCK THE CHOCOBAR STAT. Are you seriously trying to go down this path. Have you even checked out the chocobar stat or are you just trying to argue for the sake of it? I dont know which is worse, that your combative or that you wouldnt see why its ridiculed.


Can you find me one credible analyst other than John Hollinger that uses PER or WS in order to justify a players abilities?
Sure, the guy who trains NBA players, David Thorpe.



Just my two cents.
Definitely


I agree, but I do weigh heavily the opinions of former basketball greats and the NBA's most credible analysts. Most of which will agree that Kobe's prime was greater than Lebrons.
I too have analysts that I prefer but I only value their opinion above my own if they provide sound reasoning. When it comes to former players, I have a hard time recognizing which ones to take seriously. Like when Larry Bird questioned if hes ever seen someone win a ring in the dominant fashion that Bron just did, I cant help but think hes joking. When I see guys like MJ make a career out of being wrong on which prospects his team should pursue and how bad of a GM hes been, I just dont see why you would value great players above normal players. I mean, most coaches arent great players, they are great students, learners, communicators etc...

By choosing great players above others your putting an importance on athletic ability that just doesnt matter when it comes to watching and understanding the game. Some of the best basketball minds we have, came from NBA journeymen or even fat/short white dudes. Lots of NBA players are idiots, even the great ones so unless I get a chance to really get some insight from them, I wont value their opinion too much. Like I love Wilt and all, but the dude didnt know jack about stats.

Above all, I dont favor subjective analysis over objectivity and when it comes to stats, I definitely dont favor every day joe blow above the APBR community.


Even up until 2010, MJ was of the opinion that Kobe was the better player of the two. Although, I was giving you the opportunity to make a compelling argument otherwise. I'm always willing to keep an open mind. :D

How nice of you, but if your going to take the subjective approach, might I suggest that in the future you try to find a more articulate and intelligent person to back you?




Just proving a point that just because someone happens to possess more statistical knowledge than the norm, it doesn't mean that their opinion is automatically non bias.
Can you explain the Hollinger reference? And the point will always remain, the less subjectivity the more objective the argument.



Do you happen to know the name of this committee? Just curious because I have never heard of them.
Its a community of statisticians. APBR


Bloodletting was once the "most popular" form of curing infection. Just because something is popular, doesn't mean that its the most effective.
Agreed, just look at how popular old school stats are among casual NBA fans. Little do they know nobody in the field uses them as they are.

beliges
08-30-2012, 01:28 AM
Let me put it to you in simpler terms.

People can skew statistics any which way they want to when using fabricated metrics and subjective formulas.
Again, people can misuse statistics much more simply when using raw stats that fail to account for the variables I mentioned. So we're back to the beginning, why would I trust your opinion of the value of stats over guys who actually work in the NBA?? Its one thing if you dont like stats, just dont use them or mention them period, otherwise I dont see what makes you so credible on which stats are proper.

I'm not telling you which stats are proper. I'm just pointing out to you that what a player actually accomplishes and how much a player dominates the league means a hell of a lot more than some statistics that are made up of other statistics implemented in a formula a writer came up with using his own subjective criteria.

Just saying, some people tend to bring up these types of stats here when there is not much other evidence that supports their opinions.

You're definitely reaching very hard if youre trying to make your point about a players greatness by arguing PER or W/S.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-30-2012, 01:30 AM
I just hope Kobe gets 2 more titles in the next 2 yrs and just retires. Then you stat whores and junkies can have a hard on and jizz all over Hollinger and Fat Haberstroh's PER crap all you want for the rest of your basketball watching lives.

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-30-2012, 01:35 AM
I just hope Kobe gets 2 more titles in the next 2 yrs and just retires. Then you stat whores and junkies can have a hard on and jizz all over Hollinger and Fat Haberstroh's PER crap all you want for the rest of your basketball watching lives.

:clap:

bucketss
08-30-2012, 01:48 AM
I just hope Kobe gets 2 more titles in the next 2 yrs and just retires. Then you stat whores and junkies can have a hard on and jizz all over Hollinger and Fat Haberstroh's PER crap all you want for the rest of your basketball watching lives.

than all his fan boys will come out the wood works with kobe > jordan. oh god please don't let this happen

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-30-2012, 01:52 AM
than all his fan boys will come out the wood works with kobe > jordan. oh god please don't let this happen

Us Laker fans respect the hell outta MJ. We feel honored when our boy Kobe gets mentioned as the same breath as him. But at the same time, Kobe himself has put in the work over 16 yrs of artwork in the association to deserve the comparisons. At the end, 6 or 7 titles, whatever it maybe, Kobe Bean Bryant will finally be worthy of sitting at the same dinner table across Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

smiddy012
08-30-2012, 02:48 AM
I have never seen any super-star in NBA history that is constantly surrounded by all star players throughout his career.

dnewguy is so pathetically stupid his stupidity never ceases to impress me.

Wade/Bosh > Bynum/Gasol, it's that simple. And Kobe had Shaq before... that's about it. Odom was never a star.


Lets just call Kobe the most fortunate player with championships in NBA history

Ever heard of the old Laker or Celtic teams? Of course not, you are 12 years old (either that or you have the mind of one, which is even sadder).


Thats not true at all.. Kobe is only going up. There are three players still playing in the NBA that have shown "so far" that they can be top 10 material. Durant,Kobe,and Lebron. Neither of them are passing Kobe EVER. when its all said and done Kobe will surpass Jordan and lebron will round out the top 3.

This is why Kobe gets "disrespected" so much. Because so many of his fans are DUMB@$$es who make the Jordan/Kobe comparison. Even worse, they proclaim that Kobe is or will be better than MJ. Seriously, some of you west coast wack-jobs need to lay off the green and stop sucking Kobe's dick.


This thread is so full of stupidity it's sad. Turns out we have hundreds of prophets on PSD who all know the future! Truth is Lebron MAY surpass Kobe in all-time player rankings one day, he MAY not.

Also, the OP is ********. He is a joke.

BULLSFAN0810
08-30-2012, 02:48 AM
If you think James is better than Kobe ...WOW....THATS NEW.

James : Lost more finals as a stand alone star, compared to winning with Bosh and Wade.

Considered a choker until 3rd quarter game 2 of the 2012 finals.

Soo many glarring holes in his game..dare i say Dominque Wilkins when he gets old ...and that was as bad as watching Shaq And MJ get OLD,and getting outplayed.


Kobe 5xchamp...dropped 81, was the upper esch for 10 summers plus. Only knock on Kobe is he is/was sooo good took bad shots and made ALOT OF THEM.(AND IF YOU NEVER REALLY , REALY PLAYED BALL YOU WILL NEVER GET IT) AKA THE GUY WAS ALWAYS A THREAT TO SCORE FROM WHEREVER/H
OWEVER.

PPl hate Kobe like PPl hate Mj. I saw it and thought it waas bc MJ crushed soo many dreams of players and their follwers...Kobe had the hard task of following a REAL LEGEND. Not saying kobe isnt a REAL LEGEND,But i dont think James could follow up MJ...as we all learned James succombs to pressure,and Kobe be it good or bad, will shoot his way out... ID take the Gunner over the superior athlete who has the IQ of the gunner,but doesnt have the "BALLS" Of the gunner.IE ...Kobe at the same age of James will/would OWN James,off of pure Skill and heart

Chronz
08-30-2012, 02:56 AM
I'm not telling you which stats are proper.
So when you say "real stats" you actually mean, no stats at all?


I'm just pointing out to you that what a player actually accomplishes and how much a player dominates the league means a hell of a lot more than some statistics that are made up of other statistics implemented in a formula a writer came up with using his own subjective criteria.

Well I wont pretend to know you but it could be that your definition of dominating the league is much more subjective than the objective stats. Which is why we use stats in the first place, to add context to opinions with facts.


Just saying, some people tend to bring up these types of stats here when there is not much other evidence that supports their opinions.

Thats your opinion but I see all sorts of idiotic arguments, with or devoid of stats.


You're definitely reaching very hard if youre trying to make your point about a players greatness by arguing PER or W/S.

Not any moreso than arguing a players greatness with archaic stats and pointless scoring titles.

smiddy012
08-30-2012, 02:58 AM
Us Laker fans respect the hell outta MJ. We feel honored when our boy Kobe gets mentioned as the same breath as him. But at the same time, Kobe himself has put in the work over 16 yrs of artwork in the association to deserve the comparisons. At the end, 6 or 7 titles, whatever it maybe, Kobe Bean Bryant will finally be worthy of sitting at the same dinner table across Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

If you wanna compare Kobe's titles to Lebrons', Kobe is more comparable to MJ. If you want to compare Lebron's in-game dominance and influence to Kobe's, Lebron is more comparable to MJ. These are just concrete, scientifically provable facts.

And also, MJ sits at his own damn table with his own damn dinner. Nobody was ever at his level. To be near MJ's level Lebron would have to win 5 more finals MVPs while being the best player in the league going into his mid 30s and Kobe would have to win 3 more finals MVPs. When and if one of those two things happen, then we can put Lebron or Kobe at MJs table. Till then they have to gtfo and buy their own dinner.

And I swear to god, if some celtics fan pops out of nowhere and starts marketing Bill Russell as GOAT this will officially become the dumbest thread in history.

Chronz
08-30-2012, 03:02 AM
I just hope Kobe gets 2 more titles in the next 2 yrs and just retires. Then you stat whores and junkies can have a hard on and jizz all over Hollinger and Fat Haberstroh's PER crap all you want for the rest of your basketball watching lives.

LOL, I honestly never really knew about Haberstoh until you continued to whine about him. Its funny, why do you always bring him up? I mean, I know he uses the stats that people in the business use but LOTS of analyst do, why not mention someone with an actual statistical background, it would make more sense to lump Hollinger with people of his ilk wouldnt it?

Anyways, why would you want Kobe to retire sooner? Every year he plays he adds to his legacy, why wouldnt you root for that?

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-30-2012, 03:16 AM
LOL, I honestly never really knew about Haberstoh until you continued to whine about him. Its funny, why do you always bring him up? I mean, I know he uses the stats that people in the business use but LOTS of analyst do, why not mention someone with an actual statistical background, it would make more sense to lump Hollinger with people of his ilk wouldnt it?

Anyways, why would you want Kobe to retire sooner? Every year he plays he adds to his legacy, why wouldnt you root for that?

I don't know why man, but for some reason, Haberstroh just rubs me the wrong way.

Anyways, look, I know Kobe doesn't have the out of the world stats like some other guys and he's not the most efficient, but he gets the job done most often than not.

There are some people who just downplay Kobe's career with this whole TS% and PER, and to me, it's all about the journey and evolution of a player and how well he works with the low points of his career and how he makes his weakness into strengths, and then I look at the end result (championships, awards, glory etc.)


That's why stats irk me sometimes.

Stats are like bikinis. They're nice to look at, but they don't tell the whole story.


I've learned to respect you and some other guys here who back up their claims with statistical facts and analysis. But there are just some guys here on PSD who go a little way beyond that and totally annihilate the Black Mamba like he's the most inefficient chucking garbage black hole to ever exist.


It's very frustrating to see one of the greatest players of all time get so maligned to such an extreme degree that's so over the hill.

Faneik
08-30-2012, 03:22 AM
Kobe was the first franchise guard to be drafted out of high school. Therefore he had to prove himself.

In fact, I'll go even further and say that because Kobe was one of the first to be able to prove a player drafted out of high school can become a franchise player, it paved the way for Lebron to be given the credibility he needed starting from day 1. Lebron will be the first to admit that.

Garnett was drafted one year earlier, and played 29 minutes/game in his rookie season, started in 43 games, by his 2nd season he was starting for the Wolves.

Kobe played 15 minutes/game in his rookie season, becoming a starter in his 3rd season.

The last guy drafted from HS before Garnett, was in 1975. After Garnett, every year you had guys coming out of HS.

So, if you want to say "Kobe was one of the first to be able to prove a player drafted out of high school can become a franchise player", you're forgetting about KG. Unless you don't think KG became the Wolves' franchise player.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-30-2012, 03:31 AM
Garnett was drafted one year earlier, and played 29 minutes/game in his rookie season, started in 43 games, by his 2nd season he was starting for the Wolves.

Kobe played 15 minutes/game in his rookie season, becoming a starter in his 3rd season.

The last guy drafted from HS before Garnett, was in 1975. After Garnett, every year you had guys coming out of HS.

So, if you want to say "Kobe was one of the first to be able to prove a player drafted out of high school can become a franchise player", you're forgetting about KG. Unless you don't think KG became the Wolves' franchise player.

Yea well KG never got the job done in Minnesota any way you slice it. Kobe eventually did. ;)

Faneik
08-30-2012, 03:43 AM
Yea well KG never got the job done in Minnesota any way you slice it. Kobe eventually did. ;)

weak argument.

Let me slice it in a different way then.

Lakers were champions in 2000, 2001, 2002.

Shaq was MVP in ALL those Finals, NOT Kobe.

So, I think it's safe to say that without enough help, even the greatest players can't "get the job done" by themselves.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-30-2012, 04:06 AM
weak argument.

Let me slice it in a different way then.

Lakers were champions in 2000, 2001, 2002.

Shaq was MVP in ALL those Finals, NOT Kobe.

So, I think it's safe to say that without enough help, even the greatest players can't "get the job done" by themselves.

Let's cut it another way.

KG was the man in Minnesota for 13 yrs and didn't get to the finals once.


Post-Shaq, Kobe led his Lakers to the Finals after just his 4th season as the man, and back-to-back titles in his 5th and 6th seasons as the man.

Faneik
08-30-2012, 04:12 AM
Let's cut it another way.

KG was the man in Minnesota for 13 yrs and didn't get to the finals once.


Post-Shaq, Kobe led his Lakers to the Finals after just his 4th season as the man, and back-to-back titles in his 5th and 6th seasons as the man.

how were the lakers doing before Gasol?

if you can't understand the importance of a supporting cast, you're blinded with Kobe-love.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-30-2012, 04:14 AM
how were the lakers doing before Gasol?

if you can't understand the importance of a supporting cast, you're blinded with Kobe-love.

Cassell, Sprewell, Troy Hudson, Sczerbiak, Rasho > Odom, Smush, Walton, Mihm, Cook, Kwame

Faneik
08-30-2012, 04:23 AM
Cassell, Sprewell, Troy Hudson, Sczerbiak, Rasho > Odom, Smush, Walton, Mihm, Cook, Kwame

that actually helps my point.

without a good supporting cast, you're not going anywhere.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-30-2012, 04:51 AM
that actually helps my point.

without a good supporting cast, you're not going anywhere.

Yet Minnesota still couldn't get to the finals with that cast. Kobe generated buzz and money with his crappy teams than KG did in his probably one contender team that he had in 04 with all those guys I mentioned (his league mvp yr).

Faneik
08-30-2012, 04:58 AM
Yet Minnesota still couldn't get to the finals with that cast. Kobe generated buzz and money with his crappy teams than KG did in his probably one contender team that he had in 04 with all those guys I mentioned (his league mvp yr).

one "buzz" i remember from kobe when the lakers weren't contending was putting the pressure on the FO demanding to be traded.

that's one thing i truly admire about Kobe. He will try to do anything to win.
He was basically saying: "give me help, or I'll leave".

He got his wish and won. I give him credit for that. He doesn't sit on his money, like many others.

LBJ6
08-30-2012, 05:17 AM
Lebron will always be a better player than Kobe.

thenaj17
08-30-2012, 06:20 AM
How ill you have spacing when your "best" player never passes the ball?

You seriously arguing with that case? The classic 'Kobe is a ball hog' argument.

Not only is that a typical sheep thing to say, it is also completely untrue.

If you watched any games the last 2 years (i could even argue longer when Vujacic, Radmanovic and Farmar were there), you would notice Kobe had no good 3 point shooters ever open. It was often a problem when he gave the ball to Bynum and Gasol in the post aswell. They got doubled, left Fisher, Barnes, Artest, Blake WIDE open for 3's and 8/10 times it was bricked.

That's why so many teams played Zone against the Lakers, because they just couldn't shoot.

LeBron is a better player currently but give Kobe Chalmers, Battier and Miller making the 3's that the above 4 missed time and time again last 2 years and Lakers wouldn't have crashed so badly the last 2 years.

Kobe passed on a regular basis but his teammates misses (that better shooters would have made) cost him several assists per game

pedrofan45
08-30-2012, 08:34 AM
You seriously arguing with that case? The classic 'Kobe is a ball hog' argument.

Not only is that a typical sheep thing to say, it is also completely untrue.

If you watched any games the last 2 years (i could even argue longer when Vujacic, Radmanovic and Farmar were there), you would notice Kobe had no good 3 point shooters ever open. It was often a problem when he gave the ball to Bynum and Gasol in the post aswell. They got doubled, left Fisher, Barnes, Artest, Blake WIDE open for 3's and 8/10 times it was bricked.

That's why so many teams played Zone against the Lakers, because they just couldn't shoot.

LeBron is a better player currently but give Kobe Chalmers, Battier and Miller making the 3's that the above 4 missed time and time again last 2 years and Lakers wouldn't have crashed so badly the last 2 years.

Kobe passed on a regular basis but his teammates misses (that better shooters would have made) cost him several assists per game

You're really going to say Kobe is not a ball hog :laugh2: give lebron a frontcourt of gasol and bynum and kobe all those three point shooters and we'd see how many more assists lebron would get

Heatcheck
08-30-2012, 11:12 AM
I don't like the comparison from Durant to Kobe. Different positions, different styles of play. Durant has more catch and shoot opportunities than kobe and also can shoot right over a majority of people that guard him, kinda like kobe in his prime. Also Kobe is 33. Durant is 24?25? Big difference. Kobe is on the decline as far as athleticism is concerned. Durant is also playing off the ball a lot. A opportunity Kobe hasn't had yet. He's never really had a Westbrook or Harden caliber player to create for him like Durant has. Kobe is usually running the offense for the lakers, Durant rarely does that and when he tried to handle the ball too much in the finals, his TO numbers went up a bit.

All in all, this isn't a fair comparison.

I see what your saying, although i wasnt trying to compare them as much as correct the guy above me. but you know what, most of what you said, except for the quality of teammate (and even then, harden and westbrook are scorers than playmakers), just speaks of each players ability and what each can do. I think in the end each is their teams best player and scorer, and main offensive weapons and this is their production.

mightybosstone
08-30-2012, 11:44 AM
For example, if you calculate the top 10 leaders in PER or W/S, they are nowhere near who the top 10 players would be.
Top 10 in PER in 2011-2012:
1. Lebron
2. Paul
3. Wade
4. Durant
5. Love
6. Howard
7. Griffin
8. Rose
9. Westbrook
10. Bynum

Top 10 in WS/48 in 2011-2012:
1. Lebron
2. Paul
3. Durant
4. Harden
5. Wade
6. Noah
7. Love
8. Chandler
9. Anderson
10. Rose

My god.... You're right, look at these lists and how many atrocious players are in the top 10! Who the **** is this Kevin Durant guy? And Chris Paul top 2 in both categories?!?!? :rolleyes:

Seriously, you need to get over yourself. I will admit that both statistics generally favor offensively efficient players and will sometimes inflate the value of guys like Noah and Chandler, who don't take many shots but make the ones they take. But that's the point of having statistics that take efficiency into account. Because PPG, RPG and APG hardly tell the whole story, and it's ignorant to judge players off those numbers without considering the context around those numbers.


Now its all fun when having debates on these new-age stats. But people tend to use these types of stats when actual accomplishments and actual achievements are not in favor of theyre opinion. There is no disproving what a player actually accomplished throughout their career.

Any "accomplishment" can be disproved or knocked down to some degree. Kobe fans obviously lean on the fact that he has five rings while Lebron has only one. But they don't consider that Kobe was a No. 2 on three of those championship teams and never won a ring without an elite big man on his roster. People bring up the 81-point game (which I still consider one of the greatest achievements in sports of the last decade), but look at the rest of that Lakers roster and it's easy to see why he was allowed to take nearly 50 shots in a game. Also, you can tout his two Finals MVPs, but Pau was every bit as good in that postseason and every bit as valuable as Kobe in those Finals in 2010.

My point isn't to try to prove that Kobe isn't a great player, because he was and still is. But my point is that ANY argument between all-time greats is going to have its strengths and weaknesses, and you have to consider everything. If we only looked at stats like PPG, then Allen freakin' Iverson would be a top 10 all-time player. And if we only considered championships, then Robert Horry and Derek Fisher would be all-time greats.

3RDASYSTEM
08-30-2012, 12:05 PM
So now since its a 'guard' being drafted out of highschool he should ride the bench longer? of course a franchise player proves himself on the court to see if hes worth the extension after the first 3-4yrs are up,but from day 1 if hes a tru tru franchise player,not a developing type and seeing and waiting and going back and forth cause a coach cant figure out what equal player to play....trust me if IRVING can get SESSIONS traded last yr then im pretty sure KB could have gotten SCOTT/VANEXEL/JONES moved like ASAP if he was ''THE MAN/FRANCHISE''..its like all you fanatics break his career into like 4-5 diff. parts because he was a backupguard turned allstar

did BIRD/MAGIC/ALCINDOR/WILT/SHAQ/BRON/AI/CP3/KIDD/JORDAN/BIRD develop into franchise players or were they that from day 1 or even preNBA? didnt think so ..next

KB had/has absolutely zero zip zilch to do with paving the way for BRON, hell KG/KEMP/M.MALONE paved the way for KB, its funny once you break it down and see that he demanded a trade to a team only to sit and not start for his reg season squad but on allstar squads cuz of a dunk contest he won as a rookie and playing in that LA market to vote him in, go ask HOWARD how his dunk contest participation did for his allstar status..top vote getter right? in ORL market..but i get it, he had to prove he was better than old *** SCOTT, a good player in VAN EXEL and a good player in JONES....so what does that make him, a good player right? i recall a LAKER fanatic saying that a 'PRIME' CEBALLOS would have started over BRON, thats when you know how delusional LAKER people can be at times....its like saying a prime SEDALE THREATT would have started over IVERSON , just delusional

like i said he was a developing player who WEST felt could develop into a really good player...a backup guard turned allstar like i said many times...documented

a scoring version of PIPPEN,not bad at all....he even called himself a sidekick according to PHILJAX, but what does that matter, he developed into '''THE MAN'''...didnt know robin/sidekicks could do that..to each his own

dh144498
08-30-2012, 12:16 PM
Kobe's greater than Lebron right now and has been since Lebron's rookie season. If he wins again he'll only distance himself further ahead of Lebron.

AlmostThere
08-30-2012, 01:38 PM
So now since its a 'guard' being drafted out of highschool he should ride the bench longer? of course a franchise player proves himself on the court to see if hes worth the extension after the first 3-4yrs are up,but from day 1 if hes a tru tru franchise player,not a developing type and seeing and waiting and going back and forth cause a coach cant figure out what equal player to play....trust me if IRVING can get SESSIONS traded last yr then im pretty sure KB could have gotten SCOTT/VANEXEL/JONES moved like ASAP if he was ''THE MAN/FRANCHISE''..its like all you fanatics break his career into like 4-5 diff. parts because he was a backupguard turned allstar

did BIRD/MAGIC/ALCINDOR/WILT/SHAQ/BRON/AI/CP3/KIDD/JORDAN/BIRD develop into franchise players or were they that from day 1 or even preNBA? didnt think so ..next

KB had/has absolutely zero zip zilch to do with paving the way for BRON, hell KG/KEMP/M.MALONE paved the way for KB, its funny once you break it down and see that he demanded a trade to a team only to sit and not start for his reg season squad but on allstar squads cuz of a dunk contest he won as a rookie and playing in that LA market to vote him in, go ask HOWARD how his dunk contest participation did for his allstar status..top vote getter right? in ORL market..but i get it, he had to prove he was better than old *** SCOTT, a good player in VAN EXEL and a good player in JONES....so what does that make him, a good player right? i recall a LAKER fanatic saying that a 'PRIME' CEBALLOS would have started over BRON, thats when you know how delusional LAKER people can be at times....its like saying a prime SEDALE THREATT would have started over IVERSON , just delusional

like i said he was a developing player who WEST felt could develop into a really good player...a backup guard turned allstar like i said many times...documented

a scoring version of PIPPEN,not bad at all....he even called himself a sidekick according to PHILJAX, but what does that matter, he developed into '''THE MAN'''...didnt know robin/sidekicks could do that..to each his own

Kobe Didn't need 2 top 5 player in their position to win a title at 27. Hell at 27 he was scoring 35.5 PPG with smush parker and kwame brown on his team. I have yet to see Lebron do this. And all this Lebron Kobe Comparisons are ******** in my opinion. Kobe is a SG Lebron is a F. Now if you want to compare Magic Johnson and Lebron that would be more compatible. Both were all around player that could play 1-5. Both play either PG or PointForward for their team. If anything, Lebron is a Juiced up version of Pippen. Pippen kind of innovated the PointForward position playing with jordan. Lebron perfected it. And a Jordan to Lebron comparison isn't even close at all. Jordan had Pippen when he was 27. Lebron had Bosh and Wade. When they got together they had in my opinion two top 3 or 4 players and Bosh. Jordan would have never done that. Not even Karl Malone would do that. They enjoyed the competition. Lebron ended up paving the way to make all these superteams that may be exciting to watch,but hurts all the smaller market teams. What a great guy. Screwing over his own home town, and all the other smaller markets along with them. Definitely Greatest of all time, Not.

And you know what? Not even Jordan got drafted straight out of highschool. So yes Kobe HELPED pave the way for Lebron to come out of high school.

3RDASYSTEM
08-30-2012, 08:44 PM
KB came into league playing with modern day WILT for his first 8yrs and they got swept 2x in first 3yrs with him as a backup guard, i was saying no way a MAGIC/JORDAN/AI/BRON teaming with DIESEL would have got swept,it would have been a reverse....AI was as good at age 17 as he was 27, he didnt even play sports his senior yr in high school and went to G'TOWN fresh out of jail and dropped 20ppg and got boxed in 1 defense ran on him his entire sophomore season and still dropped 25ppg, and DIESEL was getting quintupled teamed at LSU if ya dont recall, and should i mention BRON came strait to the league and dropped 20/6/6, they didnt need to reach a certain 'prime' age,they were that good preNBA

KB avg 7/15/19ppg his first 3yrs, and made allnba def. teams and was starting in allstar games but not for his regular season squad...name me a tru franchise player who does that..he even said he was tired of being a sidekick,what tru franchise player says that? MAGIC and ALCINDOR were both Franchise right? i think so

in 2003 they said KB finally got on DIESEL level..well thats 7yrs into your career,BRON/AI were on DIESEL level from day 1 they entered league...

He helped pave the way but BRON was practicing with CAVS before the draft even went down...he was starting/Franchise from day 1 preNBA draft, he didnt orchestrate a trade to frontrun and then only sit on bench his first 3yrs,hes way too good no matter what the rotation is...hes a tru Franchise player along with MAGIC/JORDAN/BIRD/WILT/ALCINDOR/CP3/DWILL/ALCINDOR and a few others

age has nothing to do with how good the players i've mentioned,they were Franchise off top, and last i checked tru Franchise players start from day/yr 1,developing players take a few yrs..but what do i know

last stand
08-30-2012, 09:31 PM
just like lebron and jordan kobe is underrated or overrated depending who you talk to. rarely is there someone willing to actually look at these players careers from an unbiased perspective.

you'll get the kobe isn't even a top 15-20 player all time, and you'll also get the kobe is the GOAT, 81 points, 5 rings, no ones close

some will give you the truth which is he's in the top 10 regardless of where you put him in there and he's one of the best to ever lace em up

amos1er
08-30-2012, 11:17 PM
So now since its a 'guard' being drafted out of highschool he should ride the bench longer? of course a franchise player proves himself on the court to see if hes worth the extension after the first 3-4yrs are up,but from day 1 if hes a tru tru franchise player,not a developing type and seeing and waiting and going back and forth cause a coach cant figure out what equal player to play....trust me if IRVING can get SESSIONS traded last yr then im pretty sure KB could have gotten SCOTT/VANEXEL/JONES moved like ASAP if he was ''THE MAN/FRANCHISE''..its like all you fanatics break his career into like 4-5 diff. parts because he was a backupguard turned allstar

did BIRD/MAGIC/ALCINDOR/WILT/SHAQ/BRON/AI/CP3/KIDD/JORDAN/BIRD develop into franchise players or were they that from day 1 or even preNBA? didnt think so ..next

KB had/has absolutely zero zip zilch to do with paving the way for BRON, hell KG/KEMP/M.MALONE paved the way for KB, its funny once you break it down and see that he demanded a trade to a team only to sit and not start for his reg season squad but on allstar squads cuz of a dunk contest he won as a rookie and playing in that LA market to vote him in, go ask HOWARD how his dunk contest participation did for his allstar status..top vote getter right? in ORL market..but i get it, he had to prove he was better than old *** SCOTT, a good player in VAN EXEL and a good player in JONES....so what does that make him, a good player right? i recall a LAKER fanatic saying that a 'PRIME' CEBALLOS would have started over BRON, thats when you know how delusional LAKER people can be at times....its like saying a prime SEDALE THREATT would have started over IVERSON , just delusional

like i said he was a developing player who WEST felt could develop into a really good player...a backup guard turned allstar like i said many times...documented

a scoring version of PIPPEN,not bad at all....he even called himself a sidekick according to PHILJAX, but what does that matter, he developed into '''THE MAN'''...didnt know robin/sidekicks could do that..to each his own

West actually said that Kobe would one day be the best player in the NBA. He said this upon drafting him. Why do you think that the Lakers traded away a top 5-7 center in Divac and why do you think that they did eventually fire Del Harris. Either way, Kobe was the the second premier player to be drafted out of high school after KG. Therefore, he had to prove himself, unlike Lebron who had the benefit of having the way paved for him by successes of Kobe and KG. Do you honestly think that if Kobe was drafted onto the same Cavs team that Lebron was that he wouldn't have been playing 40+ minutes per game? Come one bro...even the biggest Kobe haters would have the brains to admit that one.

You're point is totally nonsense too as both Shaq and West have recently said that Kobe is the greatest Lakers of all time. http://ballislife.com/shaq-jerry-west-think-kobe-is-the-best-laker-ever-what-about-magic/ Not bad for what you and other haters consider to be a developing player similar to Scottie Pippen. Again I must say in closing... :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

bucketss
08-31-2012, 01:29 AM
Us Laker fans respect the hell outta MJ. We feel honored when our boy Kobe gets mentioned as the same breath as him. But at the same time, Kobe himself has put in the work over 16 yrs of artwork in the association to deserve the comparisons. At the end, 6 or 7 titles, whatever it maybe, Kobe Bean Bryant will finally be worthy of sitting at the same dinner table across Michael Jeffrey Jordan.


Thats not true at all.. Kobe is only going up. There are three players still playing in the NBA that have shown "so far" that they can be top 10 material. Durant,Kobe,and Lebron. Neither of them are passing Kobe EVER. when its all said and done Kobe will surpass Jordan and lebron will round out the top 3.

this is what i mean, i believe many more LA fans believe this just maybe afraid to say it. i mean what the hell possess someone to say something like that

peterposma
08-31-2012, 01:51 AM
James is definitely the better player!

bucketss
08-31-2012, 02:01 AM
So now since its a 'guard' being drafted out of highschool he should ride the bench longer? of course a franchise player proves himself on the court to see if hes worth the extension after the first 3-4yrs are up,but from day 1 if hes a tru tru franchise player,not a developing type and seeing and waiting and going back and forth cause a coach cant figure out what equal player to play....trust me if IRVING can get SESSIONS traded last yr then im pretty sure KB could have gotten SCOTT/VANEXEL/JONES moved like ASAP if he was ''THE MAN/FRANCHISE''..its like all you fanatics break his career into like 4-5 diff. parts because he was a backupguard turned allstar

did BIRD/MAGIC/ALCINDOR/WILT/SHAQ/BRON/AI/CP3/KIDD/JORDAN/BIRD develop into franchise players or were they that from day 1 or even preNBA? didnt think so ..next

KB had/has absolutely zero zip zilch to do with paving the way for BRON, hell KG/KEMP/M.MALONE paved the way for KB, its funny once you break it down and see that he demanded a trade to a team only to sit and not start for his reg season squad but on allstar squads cuz of a dunk contest he won as a rookie and playing in that LA market to vote him in, go ask HOWARD how his dunk contest participation did for his allstar status..top vote getter right? in ORL market..but i get it, he had to prove he was better than old *** SCOTT, a good player in VAN EXEL and a good player in JONES....so what does that make him, a good player right? i recall a LAKER fanatic saying that a 'PRIME' CEBALLOS would have started over BRON, thats when you know how delusional LAKER people can be at times....its like saying a prime SEDALE THREATT would have started over IVERSON , just delusional

like i said he was a developing player who WEST felt could develop into a really good player...a backup guard turned allstar like i said many times...documented

a scoring version of PIPPEN,not bad at all....he even called himself a sidekick according to PHILJAX, but what does that matter, he developed into '''THE MAN'''...didnt know robin/sidekicks could do that..to each his own

why did you call him alcindor?

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 02:09 AM
this is what i mean, i believe many more LA fans believe this just maybe afraid to say it. i mean what the hell possess someone to say something like that

Well, that might be his opinion. All I know is that I'm lucky to have watched the iconic careers of both Michael and Kobe. Those 2 will be dining at the same dinner table when it's all said and done. I'll leave it at that.

GREATNESS ONE
08-31-2012, 02:25 AM
Since I'm the chef, can I make the meal?

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 02:35 AM
Since I'm the chef, can I make the meal?

Nothing greasy, Mamba is on a strict diet. :laugh2:

smiddy012
08-31-2012, 02:47 AM
-

smiddy012
08-31-2012, 02:55 AM
Well, that might be his opinion. All I know is that I'm lucky to have watched the iconic careers of both Michael and Kobe. Those 2 will be dining at the same dinner table when it's all said and done. I'll leave it at that.

You are delusional. But good luck to you and your hopes of Kobe getting 3 more finals MVPs, because it's never going to happen. I don't even need to get into the technical statistics (FG%, PER, etc.) to prove that MJ's resume is at another level beyond Kobe's.

Bone-headed Lakers fans such as yourself are the reason why bone-headed Lakers fans such as yourself feel Kobe gets disrespected. Kobe doesn't even put himself at MJ's table.

meadowlarklemon
08-31-2012, 06:16 AM
if you know basketball, then you should know kobe's not in the same class as mike. not even close.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2012, 06:55 AM
if you know basketball, then you should know kobe's not in the same class as mike. not even close.

If Kobe wins 2 more titles and somehow manages to win an MVP along the way (probably not happening), he may be more accomplished than Jordan, but he will never be the better player.

meadowlarklemon
08-31-2012, 07:31 AM
If Kobe wins 2 more titles and somehow manages to win an MVP along the way (probably not happening), he may be more accomplished than Jordan, but he will never be the better player.

exactly. it's not about rings and stats. or even MVP's. it's the intangibles of the game that separate the two.

but really, it's the fact that kobe copies mike so much that he doesn't get the same respect cuz there's no doubt about his ballin' ability. kobe is probably in the top ten all-time

StarvingKnick22
08-31-2012, 09:52 AM
when kobe retires i will make my case.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 10:24 AM
how were the lakers doing before Gasol?

if you can't understand the importance of a supporting cast, you're blinded with Kobe-love.

that's a dumb argument. So any time when there's a roster change, you can just bring up: "so how did they do before ___ got traded there?" :facepalm:

last stand
08-31-2012, 10:30 AM
exactly. it's not about rings and stats. or even MVP's. it's the intangibles of the game that separate the two.

but really, it's the fact that kobe copies mike so much that he doesn't get the same respect cuz there's no doubt about his ballin' ability. kobe is probably in the top ten all-time

Lol there is so much ignorance in this statement

last stand
08-31-2012, 10:31 AM
if you know basketball, then you should know kobe's not in the same class as mike. not even close.

If you know basketball you know how ridiculous your statement is

3RDASYSTEM
08-31-2012, 10:35 AM
AMOS so if IRVING can get SESSIONS traded away to start right off top, and last i checked SESSIONS was a hot commodity for a nice backup to fringe fulltime starter and DIVAC was a top 10-15 center(bottom half) and they traded for KB for him to ride bench as a 'FRANCHISE' player? so now IRVING is more FRANCHISE than KB,Its funny how people forget his CHARLOTTE situation to be 'THE MAN'.. you dont prove yourself in training camp?he couldnt beat out those 'good' players then,they werent HOF caliber players in front of him or was it?

of course WEST(and any GM to save face) will say that about somebody he drafted and hes played for LA longer than anybody else so who would be all time LAKER great? that carries no weight at all when speaking on tru franchise players vs developing players turned allstars(or some even starting allstar games but not on reg. season) ...WEST was right, people were arguing he was best player in 2003(7yrs later in a career,wow)..i was right also, a developing player,basically the JETER of NBA..both got 5 rings right and playing forever with same team in overhyped big market right?

BUCKETSS this is why i call him ALCINDOR: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (born Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Jr., April 16, 1947),Its like you ?'ing me why i call ALI, CASSIUS or CLAY or MALCOLM as BIGRED or WORLDPEACE as ARTEST....its they name

lookie8
08-31-2012, 10:37 AM
AMOS so if IRVING can get SESSIONS traded away to start right off top, and last i checked SESSIONS was a hot commodity for a nice backup to fringe fulltime starter and DIVAC was a top 10-15 center(bottom half) and they traded for KB for him to ride bench as a 'FRANCHISE' player? so now IRVING is more FRANCHISE than KB,Its funny how people forget his CHARLOTTE situation to be 'THE MAN'.. you dont prove yourself in training camp,he couldnt beat out those 'good' players then,they werent HOF caliber players in front of him or was it?

of course WEST will say that about somebody he drafted and hes played for LA longer than anybody else so who would be all time LAKER great? that carries no weight at all when speaking on tru franchise players vs developing players turned allstars(or some even starting allstar games but not on reg. season) ...WEST was right, people were arguing he was best player in 2003(7yrs later in a career,wow)..i was right also, a developing player,basically the JETER of NBA..both got 5 rings right and playing forever with same team in overhyped big market right?

BUCKETSS this is why i call him ALCINDOR: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (born Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Jr., April 16, 1947),Its like you ?'ing me why i call ALI, CASSIUS or CLAY or MALCOLM as BIGRED or WORLDPEACE as ARTEST....its they name

Don't forget Cassius X.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 10:49 AM
exactly. it's not about rings and stats. or even MVP's. it's the intangibles of the game that separate the two.

but really, it's the fact that kobe copies mike so much that he doesn't get the same respect cuz there's no doubt about his ballin' ability. kobe is probably in the top ten all-time

Actually the intangibles are what makes the two extremely close. Their stats and awards are what separates the two apart. The biggest thing that distances the two is their shot selection. MJ can create a lot of space for great looks. Kobe is naive enough to take super contested shots. Other than this and some athleticism I really don't see a huge difference between the two.

I really don't get why people say this. I see no resemblance in their game whatsoever. Sure MJ is Kobe's idol, but what exactly does he copy from MJ?

Faneik
08-31-2012, 10:55 AM
that's a dumb argument. So any time when there's a roster change, you can just bring up: "so how did they do before ___ got traded there?" :facepalm:

you're the one being dumb.

a roster change, like the signing of Gasol, was made to improve the team.

it's not hard to see the impact Gasol had on that team.

So yes, I can bring him to the discussion, if i'm stating he improved the lakers chances to win.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 11:20 AM
you're the one being dumb.

a roster change, like the signing of Gasol, was made to improve the team.

it's not hard to see the impact Gasol had on that team.

So yes, I can bring him to the discussion, if i'm stating he improved the lakers chances to win.
Gasol did help the team, but don't forget that any decent player added to that roster would've helped the Lakers improve with Lamar Odom as your second best player on the team. The way you posted that in response to whoever you had an argument with made it sound like Gasol was one of the only few players who could've improved the Lakers, when literally ANY top 20 player in their position would've improved the Lakers that year.

3RDASYSTEM
08-31-2012, 11:31 AM
Wish i could find the video link to when J.BARRY was ranting on ESPN little while back and he was explaining how KB studies everything from JORDAN and wants to master/copy everything he does from his game to interview,he said it not me,well he said it on national tv and it still wouldnt matter because BARRY is no 1st ballot HOF'er right?

I've even had several LAKER fanatics in person tell me hes better than JORDAN because he 'mastered' JORDAN's game, shouldnt JORDAN get that credit then? how can you take somebody **** and master it and be better than them,wheres 'your' game? only in AMERICA i guess

Of course he can play, but ask yourself this, does he play more like WEST/MAGIC or JORDAN? he said those first 2 were who he grew up on idolizing, why dont he play like those but exactly like the latter? next

Thats what makes this backupguard turned allstar **** funny, you dont ride pine behind good players if your the 2nd coming of JORDAN with the game to match,or do you until you develop?

dh144498
08-31-2012, 11:38 AM
Wish i could find the video link to when J.BARRY was ranting on ESPN little while back and he was explaining how KB studies everything from JORDAN and wants to master/copy everything he does from his game to interview,he said it not me,well he said it on national tv and it still wouldnt matter because BARRY is no 1st ballot HOF'er right?

I've even had several LAKER fanatics in person tell me hes better than JORDAN because he 'mastered' JORDAN's game, shouldnt JORDAN get that credit then? how can you take somebody **** and master it and be better than them,wheres 'your' game? only in AMERICA i guess

Of course he can play, but ask yourself this, does he play more like WEST/MAGIC or JORDAN? he said those first 2 were who he grew up on idolizing, why dont he play like those but exactly like the latter? next

Thats what makes this backupguard turned allstar **** funny, you dont ride pine behind good players if your the 2nd coming of JORDAN with the game to match,or do you until you develop?


or how about this? Kobe Bryant plays more like Kobe Bryant.

3RDASYSTEM
08-31-2012, 11:42 AM
Poppycock ...mirror image of JORDAN, next

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/796/936/Michael-Jordan-and-Kobe-Bryant_display_image.jpg?1300462689

Faneik
08-31-2012, 11:45 AM
Gasol did help the team, but don't forget that any decent player added to that roster would've helped the Lakers improve with Lamar Odom as your second best player on the team. The way you posted that in response to whoever you had an argument with made it sound like Gasol was one of the only few players who could've improved the Lakers, when literally ANY top 20 player in their position would've improved the Lakers that year.

Kobe without an elite big man:

playoffs 2005: no show, 34-48 record
2006: 1st round exit, 45-37 (suns 4-3)
2007: 1st round exit, 42-40 (suns 4-1)

Kobe with an elite big man - Gasol arrived Feb'08

2008: 22–5 after Pau arrived, 57–25, lost Finals to Celtics 4-2

2009: 65–17, champs in 5 games (magic)

I'll stop here, when they were champs for the 1st time after Shaq left.

There is proof that in order to win titles you need an elite big man, the exceptions (until 2011, whoever thinks bosh isn't elite) are MJ&Pippen and the 2004 Pistons.

My point is, Kobe is one of the GOAT's, but he can only contend if he has an elite big man playing with him.

last stand
08-31-2012, 11:56 AM
Kobe without an elite big man:

playoffs 2005: no show, 34-48 record
2006: 1st round exit, 45-37 (suns 4-3)
2007: 1st round exit, 42-40 (suns 4-1)

Kobe with an elite big man - Gasol arrived Feb'08

2008: 225 after Pau arrived, 5725, lost Finals to Celtics 4-2

2009: 6517, champs in 5 games (magic)

I'll stop here, when they were champs for the 1st time after Shaq left.

There is proof that in order to win titles you need an elite big man, the exception (until 2011, whoever thinks bosh isn't elite) was MJ&Pippen.

My point is, Kobe is one of the GOAT's, but he can only contend if he has an elite big man playing with him.

Or just help. You say elite big man which is just conjecture. See any great in history. You need help

You can say Kobe needs help to win. That is true

You cant say Kobe needs an elite big man. That's unknown, unproven, and therefore false

Yes the help he was given were big men. You can't prove that if Kobe was given an elite perimeter player when Kobe was in his prime that he wouldn't have also won.

Those suns series saw Kobe play alongside horribly depleted rosters. That's a horrible sample size to argue that Kobe needs a big man.

Kobe needs help. The lakers as an organization have a blueprint. Elite big man, elite guard.

Faneik
08-31-2012, 12:08 PM
Or just help. You say elite big man which is just conjecture. See any great in history. You need help

You can say Kobe needs help to win. That is true

You cant say Kobe needs an elite big man. That's unknown, unproven, and therefore false

Yes the help he was given were big men. You can't prove that if Kobe was given an elite perimeter player when Kobe was in his prime that he wouldn't have also won.

Those suns series saw Kobe play alongside horribly depleted rosters. That's a horrible sample size to argue that Kobe needs a big man.

Kobe needs help. The lakers as an organization have a blueprint. Elite big man, elite guard.

Wait there a minute.

Facts tell us that without an elite big man, Kobe is a 1st round exit.

Now, you're saying that if Kobe and an elite perimeter help he could also win.
And with that statement, what I said is false? What kind of logic is that?

You may have a point stating if he had an elite perimeter help he could still win, but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't without an elite big man. That's just reality. He didn't win, nothing false with what I said.

3RDASYSTEM
08-31-2012, 12:08 PM
I would view him diff as individual player had he closed out that 3-1 series lead with SMUSH/KWAME against those SUNS or got out of 1st rd postSHAQ preGASOL, its like TMAC did same thing and got killed for it forever but KB gets a pass for it plus he quit after dropping 50pts next game...i never expected him to get to FINALS with that talent, i just felt this was first time he had equal talent to IVERSON in philly and he couldnt get'em out of 1st rd or to playoffs in 3 strait yrs with basically same talent, and i always said if KB didnt have DIESEL he would end up 1st rd victim just like IVERSON for most of his career and look wat happen from 05-07 before the infamous 'youtube' parking lot rant? im sure that rings a bell to you lakerland residents...KB always had the edge when it came to ranking him against a TMAC/AI/KIDD because of rings(especially early in career), but i always felt that AI/TMAC were just better as individual players off top,from day1,preNBA..especially AI

KB always could score so i dont know why his fanatics bring up his scoring games, he dropped 30 in rookie game when AI took home MVP ..thats why i never figured out how he couldnt crack that laker starting lineup and only avg 7ppg as a rookie, you are who you are your first 2-3yrs, he just scored more later in career after playing a pippen like role that expanded into scoring more like his idol, people try to make him more because of 5rings but it doesnt matter to me if ALCINDOR/SHAQ/WILT/BRON/JORDAN never won a ring, the game/dominance individually they showed annually from day1 is enough for me..i always thought JORDAN was better individual player than BIRD/MAGIC from 1984 til they retired when they were collecting the fancy rings while individually BIRD was ?'ing was GOD disguised as JORDAN after that 63pt torture, thats how i rank players

beliges
08-31-2012, 12:28 PM
Or just help. You say elite big man which is just conjecture. See any great in history. You need help

You can say Kobe needs help to win. That is true

You cant say Kobe needs an elite big man. That's unknown, unproven, and therefore false

Yes the help he was given were big men. You can't prove that if Kobe was given an elite perimeter player when Kobe was in his prime that he wouldn't have also won.

Those suns series saw Kobe play alongside horribly depleted rosters. That's a horrible sample size to argue that Kobe needs a big man.

Kobe needs help. The lakers as an organization have a blueprint. Elite big man, elite guard.

Wait there a minute.

Facts tell us that without an elite big man, Kobe is a 1st round exit.

Now, you're saying that if Kobe and an elite perimeter help he could also win.
And with that statement, what I said is false? What kind of logic is that?

You may have a point stating if he had an elite perimeter help he could still win, but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't without an elite big man. That's just reality. He didn't win, nothing false with what I said.

Since when was pau an elite big man before teaming up with Kobe?

Furthermore, how many titles did these "elite " big men win before teaming up with Kobe. You can certainly say if you put a talented team.around Kobe, he will win.championships. But lets not get carried away calling Pau an elite big man because his "elite" status came as a direct result of him.playing alongside Kobe.

Everyone needs talent to win. Magic or Bird never won without elite big men. MJ never won without an elite wingman. Its what you do with the talent surrounding you that makes you great.

I don't see anyone knocking bird or magic for being unable to win without elite big men.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 12:28 PM
Wait there a minute.

Facts tell us that without an elite big man, Kobe is a 1st round exit.

Now, you're saying that if Kobe and an elite perimeter help he could also win.
And with that statement, what I said is false? What kind of logic is that?

You may have a point stating if he had an elite perimeter help he could still win, but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't without an elite big man. That's just reality. He didn't win, nothing false with what I said.

I don't see what you are trying say here. I don't know if you are simply agreeing with me saying that no one can win by themselves or you are just bashing on kobe. :confused:

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 12:42 PM
Shame on all of you! The DISRESPECT towards one of the greatest players to have ever played this game. Just BLASPHEMOUS!!! :mad:

lookie8
08-31-2012, 01:16 PM
Shame on all of you! The DISRESPECT towards one of the greatest players to have ever played this game. Just BLASPHEMOUS!!! :mad:

Piece of trash as a human being, though.

Faneik
08-31-2012, 01:18 PM
Since when was pau an elite big man before teaming up with Kobe?

Furthermore, how many titles did these "elite " big men win before teaming up with Kobe. You can certainly say if you put a talented team.around Kobe, he will win.championships. But lets not get carried away calling Pau an elite big man because his "elite" status came as a direct result of him.playing alongside Kobe.

Everyone needs talent to win. Magic or Bird never won without elite big men. MJ never won without an elite wingman. Its what you do with the talent surrounding you that makes you great.

I don't see anyone knocking bird or magic for being unable to win without elite big men.

Pau was a bona fide good player before he went to the Lakers. Even Kobe himself said it when Gasol was signed.
Lakers gave him more visibility, not Kobe. You Kobe-fans try to give him credit for everything.

"I don't see anyone knocking bird or magic for being unable to win without elite big men" - have you seen this thread's title? the op made this about kobe, not bird, mj, or magic. stop being so defensive.

Faneik
08-31-2012, 01:19 PM
Shame on all of you! The DISRESPECT towards one of the greatest players to have ever played this game. Just BLASPHEMOUS!!! :mad:

chill pill?

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 01:19 PM
Piece of trash as a human being, though.

Doesn't matter. This is basketball son. Get your rape allegations weak sauce **** outta here kiddo.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 01:19 PM
chill pill?

kill bill

mngopher35
08-31-2012, 01:23 PM
I think part of the disrespect comes in response to many of the delusional kobe fans on here (not saying all Kobe fans but like any great he has some). They trash anyone saying Lebron could be better than Kobe one day and then say Kobe is on the same level and/or might be better than jordan. Career wise for now Jordan is easily the best, then kobe, then Lebron. Lebron has a much much better chance of passing Kobe than Kobe does of reaching MJ status...




EDIT: Not saying those 3 are top 3 all time, just when comparing only those 3 players.

lookie8
08-31-2012, 01:26 PM
Doesn't matter. This is basketball son. Get your rape allegations weak sauce **** outta here kiddo.

Thread is about disrespect of an NBA superstar, not disrespect of the play of an NBA superstar.

And it is only natural that a Kobe jockrider like you would deny the rape allegation, only deep in your heart, you know he did it.

Don't see anyone denying Kobe is a stool pigeon, though.

Faneik
08-31-2012, 01:31 PM
I don't see what you are trying say here. I don't know if you are simply agreeing with me saying that no one can win by themselves or you are just bashing on kobe. :confused:

"simply agreeing with me saying that no one can win by themselves" - wtf? i was saying that from the beginning.

"you are just bashing on kobe" - in this thread i've stated he's one of the goat's, that i admire him for being so competitive, his huge desire to win to the point of demanding to be traded if the FO didn't get him better help.

Just because I stated that Kobe without Shaq and Gasol couldn't cut it by himself i'm "bashing" on him.

too much kobe-love is bad for you.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 01:33 PM
Thread is about disrespect of an NBA superstar, not disrespect of the play of an NBA superstar.

And it is only natural that a Kobe jockrider like you would deny the rape allegation, only deep in your heart, you know he did it.

Don't see anyone denying Kobe is a stool pigeon, though.

I don't like what went down in 2003, I don't respect him for constantly cheating on his wife. But as a fan of his since he stepped foot in 1996 in the Great Western Forum, I don't hold on to just one element.

Many haters like you keep bringing up the rape allegations even when the conversation is all basketball related. Posters and haters like you truly never have any credence to your argument nor any credibility.

Faneik
08-31-2012, 01:35 PM
I don't like what went down in 2003, I don't respect him for constantly cheating on his wife. But as a fan of his since he stepped foot in 1996 in the Great Western Forum, I don't hold on to just one element.

Many haters like you keep bringing up the rape allegations even when the conversation is all basketball related. Posters and haters like you truly never have any credence to your argument nor any credibility.

same can be said about kobe nut huggers

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 01:36 PM
"simply agreeing with me saying that no one can win by themselves" - wtf? i was saying that from the beginning.

"you are just bashing on kobe" - in this thread i've stated he's one of the goat's, that i admire him for being so competitive, his huge desire to win to the point of demanding to be traded if the FO didn't get him better help.

Just because I stated that Kobe without Shaq and Gasol couldn't cut it by himself i'm "bashing" on him.

too much kobe-love is bad for you.
I think your assessment of Kobe is fair. You're correct, he has needed a big man to help his teams elevate into championship contender status.


But here's the thing about Kobe that you can't really say about others. You give Kobe an above average big man (PF or C), and he'll make it work every time and deliver you multiple titles. He did it with Shaq, he did it with Pau, and now he'll do it with Dwight.


There's many superstars who claim that they need talent, and when they get that talent, they are still not able to deliver any championships. That cannot be said about Kobe. He makes it work every time.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 01:39 PM
"simply agreeing with me saying that no one can win by themselves" - wtf? i was saying that from the beginning.

"you are just bashing on kobe" - in this thread i've stated he's one of the goat's, that i admire him for being so competitive, his huge desire to win to the point of demanding to be traded if the FO didn't get him better help.

Just because I stated that Kobe without Shaq and Gasol couldn't cut it by himself i'm "bashing" on him.

too much kobe-love is bad for you.

u just made like 5 posts specifically pointing out the fact that Kobe couldn't win without elite bigs while everyone already agreed with you about no one winning by themselves.

"too much kobe-love is bad for you" - where did that come from? So because I pointed out, what seemed to me, you bashing on someone, it suddenly means I'm a ___-lover? :rolleyes: pathetic.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 01:40 PM
same can be said about kobe nut huggers

But here's this thing about "Kobe nut huggers", they don't go out of their way, wake up in the morning, leave everything that they're doing in life just to demean other players and stuff. Kobe haters do that. Kobe "nut huggers" are just there to defend their boy, but they rarely start the bickering and nonsensical arguments. They leave that up to the haters to start the dumbass arguments, and the "nut huggers" are basically there to eventually end the argument with an imprint.

Can "nut huggers" get annoying sometimes? Sure, but they only exist and have to over-defend their boy because some of the **** spewed out of the mouths of the haters and nonsensical posters like lookie8 is just so damn abominable.

Chronz
08-31-2012, 01:45 PM
I don't like what went down in 2003, I don't respect him for constantly cheating on his wife. But as a fan of his since he stepped foot in 1996 in the Great Western Forum, I don't hold on to just one element.

Many haters like you keep bringing up the rape allegations even when the conversation is all basketball related. Posters and haters like you truly never have any credence to your argument nor any credibility.

Your an old school prude bro. Nothing shameful about cheating on your wife

Faneik
08-31-2012, 01:46 PM
u just made like 5 posts specifically pointing out the fact that Kobe couldn't win without elite bigs while everyone already agreed with you about no one winning by themselves.

"too much kobe-love is bad for you" - where did that come from? So because I pointed out, what seemed to me, you bashing on someone, it suddenly means I'm a ___-lover? :rolleyes: pathetic.

lolz. you make me laugh.

i say "kobe needs a big man to win" - i'm bashing kobe

you accuse me of bashing kobe - i say you're a kobe-lover

and i'm the pathetic one? yeah right

dh144498
08-31-2012, 01:46 PM
back to the point original intention of the thread.

Kobe gets disrespected because:

1. the more popular you are, the more haters you will gather
2. some people don't like a ballhog
3. some insecure fans of other great players feel the need to discredit Kobe's career
4. lebron stans (same can be said the other way around too)
5. don't really know basketball, just follow the public bandwagon
6. rape case; cheating case
7. jordan jockers hate his apparent imitation of MJ (i don't see alot of similarities between their game at all)
8. morons

there ya go.

TmacBryant
08-31-2012, 01:47 PM
Your an old school prude bro. Nothing shameful about cheating on your wife

Are you really trying to defend adultery? Rofl don't get married if you wanna screw around with different women.

lookie8
08-31-2012, 01:47 PM
But here's this thing about "Kobe nut huggers", they don't go out of their way, wake up in the morning, leave everything that they're doing in life just to demean other players and stuff. Kobe haters do that. Kobe "nut huggers" are just there to defend their boy, but they rarely start the bickering and nonsensical arguments. They leave that up to the haters to start the dumbass arguments, and the "nut huggers" are basically there to eventually end the argument with an imprint.

Can "nut huggers" get annoying sometimes? Sure, but they only exist and have to over-defend their boy because some of the **** spewed out of the mouths of the haters and nonsensical posters like lookie8 is just so damn abominable.

The Kobe 'nut huggers' are the reason there are so many Kobe haters.

You understand that, don't you?

Count up the threads started by Kobe 'nut huggers'.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 01:51 PM
lolz. you make me laugh.

i say "kobe needs a big man to win" - i'm bashing kobe

you accuse me of bashing kobe - i say you're a kobe-lover

and i'm the pathetic one? yeah right

this post is just like the post where you stated "kobe needs an elite big to win": they both have no point to it. You didn't arrive at any conclusions.

nice try though.

Faneik
08-31-2012, 01:52 PM
"Why is Kobe one of if not the most disrespected NBA superstar of all-time "

because all of the psd'ers with kobe or his initials in their username that accuse others of bashing kobe just because they don't put him in the same pedestal as they do

dh144498
08-31-2012, 01:52 PM
The Kobe 'nut huggers' are the reason there are so many Kobe haters.

You understand that, don't you?

Count up the threads started by Kobe 'nut huggers'.

there are just as many Jordan and Lebron nut huggers as there are for Kobe. But still kobe gets more hate. :eyebrow:

dh144498
08-31-2012, 01:55 PM
"Why is Kobe one of if not the most disrespected NBA superstar of all-time "

because all of the psd'ers with kobe or his initials in their username that accuse others of bashing kobe just because they don't put him in the same pedestal as they do

random post: "kobe needs elite bigs to win", which has nothing to do with the thread.

then asked by others why you made that post here, because it just seems like a bash-someone post, comes back with no explanation and just calls them kobe-nut-huggers.

Faneik
08-31-2012, 01:55 PM
there are just as many Jordan and Lebron nut huggers as there are for Kobe. But still kobe gets more hate. :eyebrow:

reality check: lebron is the most hated guy

wow, you kobe-fans can't even admit that lebron has kobe beat on this one. kobe always has to be 1st...

Mcdoh
08-31-2012, 01:59 PM
just wait til lebron is 33-34 years old..

CubsBullsBucs
08-31-2012, 02:10 PM
because kobe raped a girl, almost divorced his wife, complains about players and ownership and is cocky. overall a better player than lebron but i think his lakers need to win another title. at least i think thats why kobe is not a respected NBA superstar. if you want respect you have to respect others.

last stand
08-31-2012, 02:12 PM
Wait there a minute.

Facts tell us that without an elite big man, Kobe is a 1st round exit.

Now, you're saying that if Kobe and an elite perimeter help he could also win.
And with that statement, what I said is false? What kind of logic is that?

You may have a point stating if he had an elite perimeter help he could still win, but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't without an elite big man. That's just reality. He didn't win, nothing false with what I said.


No because by saying Kobe "needs" an elite "big man" you essentially say even with an elite perimeter player he wouldn't win

Unknown

The only fact is with elite help Kobe wins championships, whether thats a big man or not is irrelevant.

That's like saying Michael jordan needs elite perimeter players to win a championship. Well so your saying Michael couldn't win with an elite big man.

Facts say Michael without an elite perimeter player never won anything.

It's a logical fallacy. The only fact/truth is that Kobe needs help, needs another elite player.

Faneik
08-31-2012, 02:25 PM
No because by saying Kobe "needs" an elite "big man" you essentially say even with an elite perimeter player he wouldn't win

Unknown

The only fact is with elite help Kobe wins championships, whether thats a big man or not is irrelevant.

That's like saying Michael jordan needs elite perimeter players to win a championship. Well so your saying Michael couldn't win with an elite big man.

Facts say Michael without an elite perimeter player never won anything.

It's a logical fallacy. The only fact/truth is that Kobe needs help, needs another elite player.

"That's like saying Michael jordan needs elite perimeter players to win a championship. Well so your saying Michael couldn't win with an elite big man." - i never said anything close to that. read, comprehend and then reply.

"The only fact/truth is that Kobe needs help, needs another elite player." . try to answer yourself this question --> why Gasol?

maybe something related to the triangle offense?

i stated facts. you're the one speculating that kobe with another wing player could win . we don't know, because it never happened.

last stand
08-31-2012, 02:30 PM
"That's like saying Michael jordan needs elite perimeter players to win a championship. Well so your saying Michael couldn't win with an elite big man." - i never said anything close to that. read, comprehend and then reply.

"The only fact/truth is that Kobe needs help, needs another elite player." . try to answer yourself this question --> why Gasol?

maybe something related to the triangle offense?

i stated facts. you're the one speculating that kobe with another wing player could win . we don't know, because it never happened.


Your not comprehending your own point. You say Kobe needs an elite big man. That essentially makes that a specific requirement for Kobe.

Your logic says well, Kobe hasn't won without an elite big man so therefore he needs one

You didnt need say anythig specifically about michael, applying the logic you are using Michael Jordan only won with an elite perimeter player, therefore he needs an elite perimeter player. Therefore an elite perimeter player is a specific requirement for Jordan

Your logic not mine

Faneik
08-31-2012, 02:36 PM
Your not comprehending your own point. You say Kobe needs an elite big man. That essentially makes that a specific requirement for Kobe.

Your logic says well, Kobe hasn't won without an elite big man so therefore he needs one

You didnt need say anythig specifically about michael, applying the logic you are using Michael Jordan only won with an elite perimeter player, therefore he needs an elite perimeter player. Therefore an elite perimeter player is a specific requirement for Jordan

Your logic not mine

again. read, comprehend and then reply.

1- "That essentially makes that a specific requirement for Kobe" - i said history tells us in order to win championships you need a good big man. i wasn't being specific about Kobe, i was talking about the history of champion teams. this just happens to be a kobe-related thread infested with kobe nut huggers.

Then I stated MJ&Pippen were the exception, and maybe also the 2004 pistons.

2- "You didnt need say anythig specifically about michael, applying the logic you are using Michael Jordan only won with an elite perimeter player, therefore he needs an elite perimeter player. Therefore an elite perimeter player is a specific requirement for Jordan" - you are making it my logic, but that's not my logic. It's your wrongful interpretation of what i've said. A very dumb interpretation btw.


here is the post where i said those things:



There is proof that in order to win titles you need an elite big man, the exceptions (until 2011, whoever thinks bosh isn't elite) are MJ&Pippen and the 2004 Pistons.

My point is, Kobe is one of the GOAT's, but he can only contend if he has an elite big man playing with him.

last stand
08-31-2012, 02:39 PM
"That's like saying Michael jordan needs elite perimeter players to win a championship. Well so your saying Michael couldn't win with an elite big man." - i never said anything close to that. read, comprehend and then reply.

"The only fact/truth is that Kobe needs help, needs another elite player." . try to answer yourself this question --> why Gasol?

maybe something related to the triangle offense?

i stated facts. you're the one speculating that kobe with another wing player could win . we don't know, because it never happened.

And to your why gasol point, you would need to have some knowledge of NBA history to know why gasol.

Jerry west built a team around Kareem and magic. Big and guard. To resurrect the lakers he signed shaq and traded for Kobe, big and guard. Handed team over to Mitch who worked under him for over a decade learning how to manage. So when rebuilding the lakers he drafted Andrew Bynum to go with kobe. Big and guard. But Bynum wasn't ready yet so when looking for trades he found gasol big and guard

Unrelated to Kobe, more along the lines of lakers philosophy

last stand
08-31-2012, 02:41 PM
again. read, comprehend and then reply.

1- "That essentially makes that a specific requirement for Kobe" - i said history tells us in order to win championships you need a good big man. i wasn't being specific about Kobe, i was talking about the history of champion teams. this just happens to be a kobe-related thread infested with kobe nut huggers.

Then I stated MJ&Pippen were the exception, and maybe also the 2004 pistons.

2- "You didnt need say anythig specifically about michael, applying the logic you are using Michael Jordan only won with an elite perimeter player, therefore he needs an elite perimeter player. Therefore an elite perimeter player is a specific requirement for Jordan" - you are making it my logic, but that's not my logic. It's your wrongful interpretation of what i've said. A very dumb interpretation btw.


here is the post when i said those things:

And yet right after that post you say in a sentence "Kobe is one of the GOATs but he needs a great big man to win" basically proving my point. You said Kobe can only, you even use the word "only", can only contend with a big man

Logical fallacy. You did make it specific to Kobe with that statement. Comprehend your own point. So I counter using the same logic

Michael Jordan can only contend with a hall of fame perimeter player. Your logic not mine

Faneik
08-31-2012, 02:41 PM
oh btw, good job ignoring when i asked you about why Gasol and the triangle offense.

Faneik
08-31-2012, 02:42 PM
And yet right after that post you say in a sentence "Kobe is one of the GOATs but he needs a great big man to win" basically proving my point

2 words

TRIANGLE OFFENSE

there caps lock and bolded so you can't ignore it

last stand
08-31-2012, 02:47 PM
2 words

TRIANGLE OFFENSE

there caps lock and bolded so you can't ignore it

The bulls used the triangle offense. If you have capable post players it doesn't matter what position they play

Both Michael and pippen were elite post players. The lakers could run the triange successfully with Kobe and Carmelo, Kobe and Lebron

The triangle is about post not about big men. There are more capable post players a big men, that is true, doesn't make it specific requirement and is also irrelevant to the discussion. Still doesn't change your logic

smiddy012
08-31-2012, 03:43 PM
I think part of the disrespect comes in response to many of the delusional kobe fans on here (not saying all Kobe fans but like any great he has some). They trash anyone saying Lebron could be better than Kobe one day and then say Kobe is on the same level and/or might be better than jordan. Career wise for now Jordan is easily the best, then kobe, then Lebron. Lebron has a much much better chance of passing Kobe than Kobe does of reaching MJ status...

This is what we call an objective, fair, and realistic viewpoint, they are a dying breed on PSD. mngopher is neither taking pot-shots at Kobe nor is he ignoring the statistical data up to the present.

A few points:

First the whole Kobe "woman" issue is overblown. If anything Kobe should be accused of stupidity for how it has gotten out of hand causing a public image problem. MJ was far from the faithful husband, although I assume he was more discrete about it.

Second, this is to the "nut huggers", I really don't like Lebron from a personal standpoint. He is most likely faithful to his wife but when it comes to pure mentality over their respective NBA careers I'd take Kobe in a heart beat, he has proven more in clutch situations no doubt. I don't like "The Decision" and all the immaturity and ignorance Lebron showed by colluding with another top 3/4 player and a top 15. I am also a Bulls fan so I have much more rivalry going on with Lebron than Kobe. And whoever said MJ supporters have disdain for Kobe due to their similar playing styles has no clue, the only reason an MJ supporter might bash Kobe's style is his chucking, otherwise we are used to MJ's game/style being replicated.

All that said Lebron IS the single most dominating force since MJ. You can hate him all you want but the more you watch the guy play the more you can't deny the fact that the league hasn't seen a player this dominating since MJ. Between his scoring, facilitation, and defense he brings an all-around game that we haven't seen post-Jordan. Is he at MJs level? Hell no, but neither is Kobe. Kobe would need to have 3 or more finals MVPs to be next to MJ. Lebron would need at least 5 while being a great shooter and post-up player going into his mid thirties. But for Lebron to surpass Kobe he'd only need 3 finals MVPs while continuing his incredible personal stat-lines. Is it likely that Lebron passes up Kobe when it's all said and done? I'm not sure. Can he? Of course he "could" but that's for the future to decide, I, unlike many of you, am not a prophet.

Faneik
08-31-2012, 03:45 PM
The bulls used the triangle offense. If you have capable post players it doesn't matter what position they play

Both Michael and pippen were elite post players. The lakers could run the triange successfully with Kobe and Carmelo, Kobe and Lebron

The triangle is about post not about big men. There are more capable post players a big men, that is true, doesn't make it specific requirement and is also irrelevant to the discussion. Still doesn't change your logic

My logic doesn't need to be changed. Maybe your interpretation of it needs to.

I was saying Gasol was signed because he would be good in the triangle and i'll stand by it.

last stand
08-31-2012, 04:02 PM
My logic doesn't need to be changed. Maybe your interpretation of it needs to.

I was saying Gasol was signed because he would be good in the triangle and i'll stand by it.

Gasol was traded for because the Lakers and Grizzlies were discussing a deal for mike miller and the grizzlies notified the lakers that pau gasol was available. negotiations happened from there

i never argued pau gasol wasn't a good fit for the triangle. he was a great fit. but at the end of the day the lakers were trying to get kobe help after bynum went down. they were trying to get into contention.

pau gasol was the only star the lakers encountered that was available and didn't require odom and/or bynum

your point that your either dodging or ignoring was "kobe NEEDs a big man to win a championship, and only with a big man can he contend"

a point that is a logical fallacy for more reasons than 1

dh144498
08-31-2012, 04:05 PM
Gasol was traded for because the Lakers and Grizzlies were discussing a deal for mike miller and the grizzlies notified the lakers that pau gasol was available. negotiations happened from there

i never argued pau gasol wasn't a good fit for the triangle. he was a great fit. but at the end of the day the lakers were trying to get kobe help after bynum went down. they were trying to get into contention.

pau gasol was the only star the lakers encountered that was available and didn't require odom and/or bynum

your point that your either dodging or ignoring was "kobe NEEDs a big man to win a championship, and only with a big man can he contend"

a point that is a logical fallacy for more reasons than 1

:clap:

meadowlarklemon
08-31-2012, 04:47 PM
Actually the intangibles are what makes the two extremely close. Their stats and awards are what separates the two apart. The biggest thing that distances the two is their shot selection. MJ can create a lot of space for great looks. Kobe is naive enough to take super contested shots. Other than this and some athleticism I really don't see a huge difference between the two.

I really don't get why people say this. I see no resemblance in their game whatsoever. Sure MJ is Kobe's idol, but what exactly does he copy from MJ?

uh.....the way he walks, talks, shoots, dribbles, drives, plays d, eats, drinks, *****.....etc. etc.

i totally agree about the shot selection thing......but that's a pretty huge thing to consider

Chronz
08-31-2012, 04:50 PM
This is what we call an objective, fair, and realistic viewpoint, they are a dying breed on PSD. mngopher is neither taking pot-shots at Kobe nor is he ignoring the statistical data up to the present.

A few points:

First the whole Kobe "woman" issue is overblown. If anything Kobe should be accused of stupidity for how it has gotten out of hand causing a public image problem. MJ was far from the faithful husband, although I assume he was more discrete about it.

Second, this is to the "nut huggers", I really don't like Lebron from a personal standpoint. He is most likely faithful to his wife but when it comes to pure mentality over their respective NBA careers I'd take Kobe in a heart beat, he has proven more in clutch situations no doubt. I don't like "The Decision" and all the immaturity and ignorance Lebron showed by colluding with another top 3/4 player and a top 15. I am also a Bulls fan so I have much more rivalry going on with Lebron than Kobe. And whoever said MJ supporters have disdain for Kobe due to their similar playing styles has no clue, the only reason an MJ supporter might bash Kobe's style is his chucking, otherwise we are used to MJ's game/style being replicated.

All that said Lebron IS the single most dominating force since MJ. You can hate him all you want but the more you watch the guy play the more you can't deny the fact that the league hasn't seen a player this dominating since MJ. Between his scoring, facilitation, and defense he brings an all-around game that we haven't seen post-Jordan. Is he at MJs level? Hell no, but neither is Kobe. Kobe would need to have 3 or more finals MVPs to be next to MJ. Lebron would need at least 5 while being a great shooter and post-up player going into his mid thirties. But for Lebron to surpass Kobe he'd only need 3 finals MVPs while continuing his incredible personal stat-lines. Is it likely that Lebron passes up Kobe when it's all said and done? I'm not sure. Can he? Of course he "could" but that's for the future to decide, I, unlike many of you, am not a prophet.
:clap:

Chronz
08-31-2012, 04:51 PM
Are you really trying to defend adultery? Rofl don't get married if you wanna screw around with different women.

Its only peni being inserted into a vag, adultery is only bad if your making love to the woman.

meadowlarklemon
08-31-2012, 05:06 PM
I think your assessment of Kobe is fair. You're correct, he has needed a big man to help his teams elevate into championship contender status.


But here's the thing about Kobe that you can't really say about others. You give Kobe an above average big man (PF or C), and he'll make it work every time and deliver you multiple titles. He did it with Shaq, he did it with Pau, and now he'll do it with Dwight.


There's many superstars who claim that they need talent, and when they get that talent, they are still not able to deliver any championships. That cannot be said about Kobe. He makes it work every time.

but not every year. if it weren't for mj playing baseball for two years, he prolly would've won 8 in a row.

mj was bored with basketball because it was so easy to win for him. with kobe, it's a "challenge" every year.

btw, i think kobe's a great player.....he's just NOT better than mj and he totally copped his style in every way. that's why he gets disrespected, to answer the original poster

meadowlarklemon
08-31-2012, 05:11 PM
back to the point original intention of the thread.

Kobe gets disrespected because:

1. the more popular you are, the more haters you will gather
2. some people don't like a ballhog
3. some insecure fans of other great players feel the need to discredit Kobe's career
4. lebron stans (same can be said the other way around too)
5. don't really know basketball, just follow the public bandwagon
6. rape case; cheating case
7. jordan jockers hate his apparent imitation of MJ (i don't see alot of similarities between their game at all)
8. morons



there ya go.

apparent imitation........:laugh:

dh144498
08-31-2012, 05:18 PM
apparent imitation........:laugh:

he wanted to be like Mike in a platonic sense, not in a literal sense.

meadowlarklemon
08-31-2012, 05:22 PM
maybe he IS just like mike......maybe that's his nature. I'm not really taking anything away from Kobe. I LIKE Kobe.

but he does so many things just like mike, and he doesn't do it as well.....hence the disrespect. But it doesn't mean he's not a great player

dh144498
08-31-2012, 05:25 PM
maybe he IS just like mike......maybe that's his nature. I'm not really taking anything away from Kobe. I LIKE Kobe.

but he does so many things just like mike, and he doesn't do it as well.....hence the disrespect. But it doesn't mean he's not a great player

like what?

meadowlarklemon
08-31-2012, 05:37 PM
everything.......except the tongue thing. kobe's managed to keep his tongue inside his mouth quite a bit more than mj did

3RDASYSTEM
08-31-2012, 06:20 PM
I showed dude earlier whos in denial of KB being a mirror image of JORDAN

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/796/936/Michael-Jordan-and-Kobe-Bryant_display_image.jpg?1300462689

3RDASYSTEM
08-31-2012, 06:26 PM
Lakerland amazes me,they get they cake/icecream/gifts every single time

First it was he took JORDAN game and 'mastered' it so hes better

Now you got some claiming they cant even see where he took from JORDAN,amazing

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/796/936/Michael-Jordan-and-Kobe-Bryant_display_image.jpg?1300462689

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 06:31 PM
Your an old school prude bro. Nothing shameful about cheating on your wife

I don't condone adultery. Nothing ethical about it.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 06:32 PM
but not every year. if it weren't for mj playing baseball for two years, he prolly would've won 8 in a row.

mj was bored with basketball because it was so easy to win for him. with kobe, it's a "challenge" every year.

btw, i think kobe's a great player.....he's just NOT better than mj and he totally copped his style in every way. that's why he gets disrespected, to answer the original poster

Michael is the G.O.A.T.

That being said, Kobe has put in the hard work, dedication combined with his high basketball IQ and injury-free career to deserve comparisons to the GOAT.

ztilzer31
08-31-2012, 06:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQG7EoYJNA8&feature=related

Kobe is a straight d bag. He comes off as one in all his interviews and to the players around him. Yet everyone who plays with and around Lebron loves him, and praises his attitude. Lebron is a better leader/player/person than Kobe in all accounts except pure scoring.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 06:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQG7EoYJNA8&feature=related

Kobe is a straight d bag. He comes off as one in all his interviews and to the players around him. Yet everyone who plays with and around Lebron loves him, and praises his attitude. Lebron is a better leader/player/person than Kobe in all accounts except pure scoring.

Do you know both of them personally? :laugh2:

ztilzer31
08-31-2012, 06:41 PM
And no Kobe does not deserve comparisons to MJ because he's not even a top 5 player all time. He's a top 10, but Shaq is the main reason Kobe has 5 titles. You can't compare yourself to the GOAT when more than half your championships you weren't even the best player on your team.

Also when it's all said and done Lebron will be GOAT anyways so it doesn't matter, but Jordan will always get the most respect because every player in this day and age mimics his style. MJ is an OG while Lebron is the GOAT.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 06:44 PM
And no Kobe does not deserve comparisons to MJ because he's not even a top 5 player all time. He's a top 10, but Shaq is the main reason Kobe has 5 titles. You can't compare yourself to the GOAT when more than half your championships you weren't even the best player on your team.

Also when it's all said and done Lebron will be GOAT anyways so it doesn't matter, but Jordan will always get the most respect because every player in this day and age mimics his style. MJ is an OG while Lebron is the GOAT.

The main argument of even why I would say that Kobe isn't better than Jordan is because Kobe already has lost the finals twice while MJ was a perfect 6/6. Only he and Duncan can claim that they are superstars who were perfect in the finals in multiple finals appearances and championships.


LeBron already started off his career with 2 finals loss and has lost numerous times already while having HCA. Child please.

ztilzer31
08-31-2012, 06:45 PM
Do you know both of them personally? :laugh2:

I know Lebron hasn't raped anyone thus far, and doesn't humiliate his teammates in the media. He also doesn't pout when he doesn't get to shoot a fade away 3 from 40 ft deep for the last shot. Kobe is not clutch anyways. The stats don't lie.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 06:46 PM
I know Lebron hasn't raped anyone thus far, and doesn't humiliate his teammates in the media. He also doesn't pout when he doesn't get to shoot a fade away 3 from 40 ft deep for the last shot. Kobe is not clutch anyways. The stats don't lie.

You're right, he doesn't do it through the media, he does his to his home state, franchise, fans and teammates on a 1 hr show on ESPN called THE DECISION.


You're Welcome.

ztilzer31
08-31-2012, 06:49 PM
You're right, he doesn't do it through the media, he does his to his home state, franchise, fans and teammates on a 1 hr show on ESPN called THE DECISION.


You're Welcome.

Oh you mean he left Cleveland. A team with terrible ownership that couldn't get one semi talented player drafted, traded, or signed on their team DURING THE ENTIRE TIME THEY HAD LEBRON. Lebron left because the Cavaliers are a garbage organization. You act like Kobe would stay in Cleveland. He once demanded a trade out of L.A. because he didn't have enough talent around him.... but that doesn't count because LA has the pocket book to get whatever player they want whenever they want.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 06:49 PM
You're an idiot. Put MJ on the Cavs and see how many finals he wins. This whole "how good one player is depends on how many titles he has" is ****ing stupid. Child's way of determining skill.

Lebron is a better leader, rebounder, floor runner, and defender then kobe. If you don't think Lebron is better than Kobe you're blind.

What's your excuse for LeBron's 2nd finals loss with Miami last yr?

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 06:50 PM
Oh you mean he left Cleveland. A team with terrible ownership that couldn't get one semi talented player drafted, traded, or signed on their team DURING THE ENTIRE TIME THEY HAD LEBRON. Lebron left because the Cavaliers are a garbage organization. You act like Kobe would stay in Cleveland. He once demanded a trade out of L.A. because he didn't have enough talent around him.... but that doesn't count because LA has the pocket book to get whatever player they want whenever they want.

Pau was acquired via trade, not free agency. Stop making yourself look worse kid.

ztilzer31
08-31-2012, 06:51 PM
What's your excuse for LeBron's 2nd finals loss with Miami last yr?

Bad teamwork, and absolutely no depth.

ztilzer31
08-31-2012, 06:51 PM
Pau was acquired via trade, not free agency. Stop making yourself look worse kid.

Oh yeah that extremely legitimate trade. 2nd round pick and kwame for Pau. Where was Stern on that trade block.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 06:52 PM
Bad teamwork, and absolutely no depth.

Bad teamwork....and whose's fault was that bad team work?

Let me guess??? Spo....not wait, it was Bosh....not wait it was Chalmers!!!!!


Not LeBron's fault, not Wade's fault.


Am I right?

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 06:53 PM
Oh yeah that extremely legitimate trade. 2nd round pick and kwame for Pau. Where was Stern on that trade block.

Do you happen to know who that 2nd rd pick was by any chance? :rolleyes:


Hint-hint, he was an all-star this yr.

AlmostThere
08-31-2012, 06:56 PM
Lakerland amazes me,they get they cake/icecream/gifts every single time

First it was he took JORDAN game and 'mastered' it so hes better

Now you got some claiming they cant even see where he took from JORDAN,amazing

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/796/936/Michael-Jordan-and-Kobe-Bryant_display_image.jpg?1300462689

Lebron copied the position Pippen innovated. PointForward. He perfected it however due to his sheer power and size. Doesn't make his game any less impressive. Same with Kobe. He may have not perfected it, Mostly because Jordan had already done so, But he is the closest we have had since. however he may have improved the fadeaway or post moves jordan had. He still chucks a brick once in while though so i can't put him over Jordan. And i find it hard for anyone to argue that at least for the shooting guard position. Jordan is the best and kobe is Second.

And your franchise player argument is Bogus. Jordan had time to develop his game in college. Kobe skipped college and lots of playing time and went straight to the NBA. Lebron is a freak of nature, you can't compare Lebron to Kobe. However if Lebron and Kobe switched draft years and age, Most likely Kobe would have been able to start from the beginning. Why? Because AI KG KB and other had already proven that a high school talent can start in the NBA. And Btw Kobe trained with the Lakers before he was drafted too. Thats why West wanted to draft him. He knew that he could become one of the greats.

lookie8
08-31-2012, 07:12 PM
I know Lebron hasn't raped anyone thus far, and doesn't humiliate his teammates in the media. He also doesn't pout when he doesn't get to shoot a fade away 3 from 40 ft deep for the last shot. Kobe is not clutch anyways. The stats don't lie.

I agree with your statement, except for the 'stats don't lie' part.

Stats not only lie, but they do needlepoint, play ping pong and do wet work for the CIA.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 07:13 PM
Stats are like bikinis. They're nice to look at, but they don't tell the whole story.

ztilzer31
08-31-2012, 07:14 PM
Do you happen to know who that 2nd rd pick was by any chance? :rolleyes:


Hint-hint, he was an all-star this yr.

Who they got with the second round pick doesn't up the value of the second round pick. Great they got a good player with a ****** pick. Yeah it happens once in awhile. Doesn't mean the trade wasn't complete crap. One of the worst players in the league and a 2nd round pick for, at the time, for a top 5 (I think he was a center at the time) in the league in Pau Gasol. Super good trade.

I get it dude a rapist, overated, ******** who no one has been able to get a long with besides a handful of players during the span of his entire career, is a better guy than Lebron James. A guy who left his home town to go to Miami, and did it in a childish way. You have no concept on reality, or real life in general.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 07:18 PM
Who they got with the second round pick doesn't up the value of the second round pick. Great they got a good player with a ****** pick. Yeah it happens once in awhile. Doesn't mean the trade wasn't complete crap. One of the worst players in the league and a 2nd round pick for, at the time, for a top 5 (I think he was a center at the time) in the league in Pau Gasol. Super good trade.

I get it dude a rapist, overated, ******** who no one has been able to get a long with besides a handful of players during the span of his entire career, is a better guy than Lebron James. A guy who left his home town to go to Miami, and did it in a childish way. You have no concept on reality, or real life in general.

You do know that the Lakers already drafted Marc Gasol prior to the Pau trade, and simply traded his draft rights to Memphis?

Memphis was not the one who draft Marc Gasol. And plus, Pau wasn't doing anything his last yrs in Memphis. If you recall, in the 2006 world championships, he broke his foot right before the gold medal game, and he was out the entire 2006-2007 season. Then he played 1/2 a season with the Grizz in 07-08, but they weren't really making any noise in the Wild Wild West.


And I think from what I've seen is that LeBron James is a great model for children. Absolutely! But then again, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, we only know the figure that we see on television.


Maybe it's not me who needs the reality check....kid!

ztilzer31
08-31-2012, 07:20 PM
I agree with your statement, except for the 'stats don't lie' part.

Stats not only lie, but they do needlepoint, play ping pong and do wet work for the CIA.

I understand your point. A lot of stats can be misleading, but when you see how many shots that guy has taken to tie or lead the game, and how many leads the Lakers have blown in the past 10 years because he wants to shoot the ball during just about every possession in the 4th quarter, and stops just working within the offense. He's hit something like 30% of his game tying/winning shots in the playoffs in his career. I don't have all the stats, but they're bad... Like real bad.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 07:21 PM
I can argue with you all day, but I must leave now. Thank you for your time.

ztilzer31
08-31-2012, 07:30 PM
You do know that the Lakers already drafted Marc Gasol prior to the Pau trade, and simply traded his draft rights to Memphis?

Memphis was not the one who draft Marc Gasol. And plus, Pau wasn't doing anything his last yrs in Memphis. If you recall, in the 2006 world championships, he broke his foot right before the gold medal game, and he was out the entire 2006-2007 season. Then he played 1/2 a season with the Grizz in 07-08, but they weren't really making any noise in the Wild Wild West.


And I think from what I've seen is that LeBron James is a great model for children. Absolutely! But then again, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, we only know the figure that we see on television.


Maybe it's not me who needs the reality check....kid!

Okay you're right they got a lot more in the trade then I remembered, but it still doesn't change the facts.

1. Kobe is statistically a bad player in the 4th quarter.
2. Kobe Raped someone.
3. Kobe's had rocky relationships with his teammates.
4. Has had a superstar on his team for 90% of his career.

Lebron
1. Had literally nothing for his entire tenure with Cleveland. Not one legitimate player on a championship team.
2. Better in every aspect of the game then Kobe in every way (an argument could be made for scoring). Oh yeah and he can defend any position on the court while running the offense.
3. Lost his first year with a legitimate team in the finals.
4. Left his home town for Miami, and made a couple stupid comments.

You can make the argument that I don't know Lebron so Kobe could be a better guy (don't know many cool older guy that sleep with minors, all tools so far i've met!) The rest of your argument is Kobe has more championships... for now.


By the way it's childish to call someone a kid.

lookie8
08-31-2012, 08:20 PM
I understand your point. A lot of stats can be misleading, but when you see how many shots that guy has taken to tie or lead the game, and how many leads the Lakers have blown in the past 10 years because he wants to shoot the ball during just about every possession in the 4th quarter, and stops just working within the offense. He's hit something like 30% of his game tying/winning shots in the playoffs in his career. I don't have all the stats, but they're bad... Like real bad.

And yet, some find him to be a GOD.

AlmostThere
09-01-2012, 12:57 AM
Okay you're right they got a lot more in the trade then I remembered, but it still doesn't change the facts.

1. Kobe is statistically a bad player in the 4th quarter.
2. Kobe Raped someone.
3. Kobe's had rocky relationships with his teammates.
4. Has had a superstar on his team for 90% of his career.

Lebron
1. Had literally nothing for his entire tenure with Cleveland. Not one legitimate player on a championship team.
2. Better in every aspect of the game then Kobe in every way (an argument could be made for scoring). Oh yeah and he can defend any position on the court while running the offense.
3. Lost his first year with a legitimate team in the finals.
4. Left his home town for Miami, and made a couple stupid comments.

You can make the argument that I don't know Lebron so Kobe could be a better guy (don't know many cool older guy that sleep with minors, all tools so far i've met!) The rest of your argument is Kobe has more championships... for now.


By the way it's childish to call someone a kid.

1.I'd rather have the best player on the team running the offense when the game is one the line. Lebron in 11 finals had a disappointing performance in every 4th quarter. Not saying Kobe is perfect either though.
2.he was never convicted. Woman went to investigation and test with cum(multiple men) stained underwear>Whore.
3.Jordan was infamous for being tough on his team mates too. And im sure AI had some arguments with team mates too.
4.I'm not sure Pau can be considered a Superstar. Hes an All-star for sure. But hes closer to Bosh talent wise than Wade.

Its childish to call Lebron the GOAT when he hasn't even finished his career yet. Yet you say hes going to be the GOAT like its the end all be all.

smiddy012
09-01-2012, 04:35 PM
Wow this thread is pathetic. It's essentially a bunch of Kobe and Lebron fanboys pulling garbage out their ***** and taking low blows at the other player. Completely childish discussion going on here. I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed yet, it would have already if it weren't the off-season.

KBfrom8to24
09-02-2012, 02:41 AM
Okay you're right they got a lot more in the trade then I remembered, but it still doesn't change the facts.

1. Kobe is statistically a bad player in the 4th quarter.
2. Kobe Raped someone.
3. Kobe's had rocky relationships with his teammates.
4. Has had a superstar on his team for 90% of his career.

Lebron
1. Had literally nothing for his entire tenure with Cleveland. Not one legitimate player on a championship team.
2. Better in every aspect of the game then Kobe in every way (an argument could be made for scoring). Oh yeah and he can defend any position on the court while running the offense.
3. Lost his first year with a legitimate team in the finals.
4. Left his home town for Miami, and made a couple stupid comments.

You can make the argument that I don't know Lebron so Kobe could be a better guy (don't know many cool older guy that sleep with minors, all tools so far i've met!) The rest of your argument is Kobe has more championships... for now.


By the way it's childish to call someone a kid.

5. No title... yet, he was proclaimed as the best player in NBA, surpassing Kobe who has 5 titles.
6 After winning his tailor made title... he's challenging MJ's legacy.
7. Winning his 2nd title... what's next?

Andrew32
09-02-2012, 07:11 AM
5. No title... yet, he was proclaimed as the best player in NBA, surpassing Kobe who has 5 titles.
6 After winning his tailor made title... he's challenging MJ's legacy.
7. Winning his 2nd title... what's next?

Rings are team accomplishments.
They shouldn't mean much in player comparisons.

Kobe is by far the luckiest GOAT level play ever in terms of career circumstances and supporting casts and he's only won a single title as the undisputed engine and best player on his own team (2009) so really using Rings to argue for Kobe over anyone is just a bad argument period.

Lebron as a comparison can be argued that he didn't even have a contender worthy cast until he came to Miami.
So... if he is already 1/2 (50%) when he has a contender worthy cast then that is pretty good.

Lebron has already had the better Peak and short Prime.
Kobe still has the career edge solidly due to longevity but Lebron might catch up to him in 3-4 years.

3RDASYSTEM
09-02-2012, 03:07 PM
ALMOSTTHERE

LEBRON copied nothing from PIPPEN, two diff animals/players.. once again your comparing tru franchise vs developing players..next

KB got worked out by LAKERS/WEST,it was reported i think(just not hyped up) SIXERS worked out BRYANT in last attempt to chose hometown kid over AI,imagine that...BRON was practicing with the entire CAVS squad before draft, big diff.

regardless what happened he was a backup guard turned allstar, AI/SHAQ/BRON are/were all freak of natures,its well documented

You LAKER fans amaze me on how someone can be a tru franchise player,but back up SCOTT/JONES/VANEXEL for 3yrs, i call that a good player developing nice and slow to a good player...hence a backup guard turned allstar...players like MAGIC/AI/BRON would have unseated those guys rookie yr in training camp...it didnt matter if they were 18 or 20 or 28..they were beasts/tru franchise players from day 1,preNBA..next

keep talking and the more it'll all make sense

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/796/936/Michael-Jordan-and-Kobe-Bryant_display_image.jpg?1300462689
A WannaBe,MirrorImage,CopyCat Whats The Diff?

``Good players make other good players better,'' Brown said. ``From late last season to this year, (Iverson is) doing what great players do.''

``It feels great to hear coach say that,'' said Iverson, a former star at Bethel High in Hampton. ``We've come a long way. We started off rocky, but now I can say we're friends. Just for that compliment - I think it's a tribute to my teammates. Without them, it wouldn't be possible.''

"Nobody who has done as much as Allen has done for this league should have to be in Turkey playing, to end his career,'' Brown said before the Bobcats-Magic game Thursday. "We have one of the most special players ever in our sport, who still has something left. I feel terrible about this. That is not how he should be ending his career.''

KEEPIT100, IVERSON didnt even make 1st or 2nd allNBA decade squad so KB being voted player of decade means nothing, absolutely nothing, proofs below... AI didnt start fulltime in the 2000 NBA season,KB did 4yrs later,AI won league MVP 2001,final scoring title in 05 and was top 3 scorer with JAMES/KB in 08 then got blackballed/benched in 2009, how can a superstar/freak athlete go from avg almost 27ppg to almost 18ppg in a 5-6 month span without blowing out a knee?tho i know he was basically 33yrs old and entering 13th season

He is a 10 time all-star and two time all-star game MVP as well as the 2001 League MVP. Iverson was the 1996 Rookie of the year and has four scoring titles. He averages 27 ppg for his career and 6.2 apg and 30 ppg in the playoffs for his career which is second all-time. - as of 2009

Iverson has 24,020 points and over 5,500 assists. In 2001, he single handedly took the Philadelphia 76ers to the NBA Finals. His best assets were Eric Snow and Aaron McKie. There has not been a less talented team in the Finals. - as of 2009

My point is Iverson's resume speak for itself, and if anyone is saying he is not getting signed because of his basketball abilities they are crazy.


“He’s an incredible player, one of the top 10 in history,” former Pistons coach Chuck Daly told a visitor before Iverson ignited and torched Detroit’s defense for game-high totals of 37 points and 15 assists in a 2005 game at Wachovia Center. - SHAQ DIESEL said he was a top 5 player ever - http://youtu.be/SBZ2jlhwpR0

“The difference (between defending Jordan and Iverson),” Daly added, “is that Michael had Scottie (Pippen), who was one of the best players in the league.”


"Instead of going into X's and O's about the situation, lets just skip to what Kobe Bryant said this morning at his basketball camp in Singapore when asked who and what type of players they need next season.

"Last season we were beat out because we had no heart against the Mavericks, aside from myself and Derek Fisher there was no player in our locker room when we went do 2-0 that thought we could still win this thing, we need that toughness, that mental toughness, a point guard who can help us in the clutch, I was talking to Coach Brown the other day and I told him Allen Iverson would be a perfect fit. I've always loved AI's game.

Reporter: "But what about the baggage he carries, does his history of destroying a team not cross your mind, would you want someone like that in your locker room?"

"That stuff is all blown out of proportion me and Allen are the same people when it comes to wanting greatness and competitiveness, there is not a player in the world that would want to come off the bench if he knew he was supposed to start, the media gives Allen this label but it's false and a lot of players in the league know this. When I think of AI I think of the guy who damn near cost me a championship in 2001, the toughest dude this league has seen."

"When the new generation comes along, you still can't take away from those players," Bryant said. "[Iverson] did stuff that's never been seen before from a guy his size. You can't discount that. He took a team of one scorer and a bunch of hard-nosed players to the NBA Finals. And when he lost to us, he was doing it during our reign of having a great team."

KeepIT100
09-02-2012, 03:21 PM
Umm Too bad kobe already was voted player of the decade 2000-2010...so there goes that argument, especially if LA wins again this year..

koberulesall
09-02-2012, 03:23 PM
when lebrons knees go out he doesnt have the jumper kobe does....lebron HAS had better years than kobe but through out there WHOLE career Kobe is the better player,once LeBRO is Kobe's age he wont be the player Kobe is now or the past 3-4 years.....62pts in 3 quarters against dallas dallas had 61 I was there!!!! nobody will EVER! do that AGAIN!!

JollyRanch
09-02-2012, 05:06 PM
Lebron is on his way but Kobe Bryant is the best player the game has seen since MJ.

mosesedan
09-03-2012, 11:07 PM
maybe because he raped a girl? i dont know thats all i got

jerellh528
09-03-2012, 11:15 PM
Okay you're right they got a lot more in the trade then I remembered, but it still doesn't change the facts.

1. Kobe is statistically a bad player in the 4th quarter.
2. Kobe Raped someone.
3. Kobe's had rocky relationships with his teammates.
4. Has had a superstar on his team for 90% of his career.

Lebron
1. Had literally nothing for his entire tenure with Cleveland. Not one legitimate player on a championship team.
2. Better in every aspect of the game then Kobe in every way (an argument could be made for scoring). Oh yeah and he can defend any position on the court while running the offense.
3. Lost his first year with a legitimate team in the finals.
4. Left his home town for Miami, and made a couple stupid comments.

You can make the argument that I don't know Lebron so Kobe could be a better guy (don't know many cool older guy that sleep with minors, all tools so far i've met!) The rest of your argument is Kobe has more championships... for now.


By the way it's childish to call someone a kid.

Im sorry, but you didnt state a single fact in your entire rant.

jerellh528
09-03-2012, 11:17 PM
lebron </= the big o
kobe </= jordan
that should tell you enough