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View Full Version : The argument of taking Big Men over Small Men in the NBA



JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 06:53 PM
People need to understand what it means when it says take the big over the small. You take the big over the small if they are more proven, but when the small if much more proven you take them. Just because Dwight is a big doesn't mean you take him over Magic Johnson who is a proven winner and shown he can get it done as the man.
Just because Patrick Ewing is a big doesn't mean I'm taking him over Larry Bird.

Raidaz4Life
08-18-2012, 06:55 PM
So.... you take the more proven player regardless of size??? That's all I got out of that.

TrueFan420
08-18-2012, 07:02 PM
If drafting on potential most people take the big over the little

JasonJohnHorn
08-18-2012, 07:03 PM
I don't think that teams generally do that when signing players that are already established. Where they do it most often is in the draft where nobody has proven they can play in the NBA.

I mentioned this in the Jordan/Salley thread, there are a host of players I would rather build around that Jordan, all of them being Cs of PFs. Rebounding is a huge part of the game and an inside presence is so much easier to build around than a SG or PG.

Would a team seriously take Howard over Magic? Or Ewing over Bird? I don't think so, but the would take Hakeem over Jordan.

Sactown
08-18-2012, 07:04 PM
Nobody does it alone JB.. I wish you'd stop judging players off of championships rather than their actually talent..

BobbyHillSwag
08-18-2012, 07:06 PM
Im still taking prime shaq over anyone including jordan. I think he was the most dominant player ever though.

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 07:06 PM
I don't think that teams generally do that when signing players that are already established. Where they do it most often is in the draft where nobody has proven they can play in the NBA.

I mentioned this in the Jordan/Salley thread, there are a host of players I would rather build around that Jordan, all of them being Cs of PFs. Rebounding is a huge part of the game and an inside presence is so much easier to build around than a SG or PG.

Would a team seriously take Howard over Magic? Or Ewing over Bird? I don't think so, but the would take Hakeem over Jordan.
Yeah and you listed guys like Barkley and Malone as well. So what would be the difference of taking Ewing over Bird or Howard over Magic? That is essentially what you are saying.

Dade County
08-18-2012, 07:06 PM
Oden ... KD

Sorry portland :(

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 07:07 PM
Nobody does it alone JB.. I wish you'd stop judging players off of championships rather than their actually talent..

I'm not judging off of championships, I'm judging off the ability to lead a franchise and led them to success especially considering the players he listed all of them played with top players in the league and plenty of talent and still may not have won.

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 07:10 PM
Im still taking prime shaq over anyone including jordan. I think he was the most dominant player ever though.

If I could be assured he would stay with my franchise at least 10 years then he certainly has a case, however if he is only around 4-6 years like he was, then no way. The point for me is for the player that I draft to stay with my franchise and for him to win with my franchise, not to go elsewhere.

BobbyHillSwag
08-18-2012, 07:13 PM
If I could be assured he would stay with my franchise at least 10 years then he certainly has a case, however if he is only around 4-6 years like he was, then no way. The point for me is for the player that I draft to stay with my franchise and for him to win with my franchise, not to go elsewhere.

Yea you got a point, I didnt take that into account. Therefore Id have to take jordan considering loyalty.

Sactown
08-18-2012, 07:15 PM
Kobe, the departure of Phil, and management drove Shaq out of LA... and didn't Jordan almost leave Chicago for NY?

"JORDAN: If Chicago had not made a significant offer, New York was next. We actually had a dialogue with New York. If a phone call didn't come in 30 minutes from Chicago, we had already given assurances that we would have gone to the Knicks for less money."

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 07:22 PM
Kobe, the departure of Phil, and management drove Shaq out of LA... and didn't Jordan almost leave Chicago for NY?

"JORDAN: If Chicago had not made a significant offer, New York was next. We actually had a dialogue with New York. If a phone call didn't come in 30 minutes from Chicago, we had already given assurances that we would have gone to the Knicks for less money."

How does that mean anything when he didn't leave and also when he had already won with the franchise that drafted him and one that never won anything prior to him coming.

Sactown
08-18-2012, 07:25 PM
How does that mean anything when he didn't leave and also when he had already won with the franchise that drafted him and one that never won anything prior to him coming.

Point is, what if Chicago hadn't surrounded Jordan with championship caliber talent? He would of left... there was no loyalty to Chicago, he just understood he could get his cake and eat it too with Chicago.. Money+Championships...
And history means bull ****... Chicago surrounded him with a championship team, it doesn't matter what happened previous

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 07:31 PM
Point is, what if Chicago hadn't surrounded Jordan with championship caliber talent? He would of left... there was no loyalty to Chicago, he just understood he could get his cake and eat it too with Chicago.. Money+Championships...
And history means bull ****... Chicago surrounded him with a championship team, it doesn't matter what happened previous

Chicago didn't surround him with a championship team, guys got better over time playing with MJ. It's like saying the Spurs surrounded Duncan with a cast when Parker and Manu were not that good coming in. And the only reason that stuff came up with NY was because Ewing was making 18 million a year in 1996 when Jordan was getting 4 million. He used it for leverage to make sure the Bulls cheap ***** owner would man up.

Sactown
08-18-2012, 07:42 PM
Chicago didn't surround him with a championship team, guys got better over time playing with MJ. It's like saying the Spurs surrounded Duncan with a cast when Parker and Manu were not that good coming in. And the only reason that stuff came up with NY was because Ewing was making 18 million a year in 1996 when Jordan was getting 4 million. He used it for leverage to make sure the Bulls cheap ***** owner would man up.

Please, they were a playoff team their first year and continued to improve every season, it's not like MJ got stuck in mediocrity, or was surrounded with a sub par roster.. even in his 2nd season where he was injured majority of the season the Bulls were still able to produce 12 more wins from the previous season with a fully healthy MJ... by 90-91 he had a ring.. every year they progressed either by record or by distance in the playoffs.. and please... if the Bulls hadn't called back just in time he'd be a KNICK for less money than in Chicago as stated.

xnick5757
08-18-2012, 07:43 PM
I think JB is actually MJ, and his time on PSD explains why the Bobcats suck

JasonJohnHorn
08-18-2012, 07:45 PM
Yeah and you listed guys like Barkley and Malone as well. So what would be the difference of taking Ewing over Bird or Howard over Magic? That is essentially what you are saying.

Because Magic and Bird could both rebound as well as a PF and made players around them better. They are very different players than Jordan. I'd rather have a great PG than a great SG. Bird was a double digit rebounder and Magic could play ever position on the court. In teh 81/82 season, Magic came closer to averaging a triple double than anybody outisde of the Big O. 18+ points, 9.5 assists and 9.6 rebounds.

Jordan was a great rebounder for his position, but I would rather have a guy giving me 25+ points a game who is also grabbing 10-12 rebounds a game, than a guy who scores 30+ and grabs 5 or 6 rebounds per game.

So yeah, I would rather build around Karl Malone than Michael Jordan, and for that matter I would rather have Stockton than Jordan for my back court.

Jordan had a lot of talent around him. Proven veterans. The best Stockton and Malone had to work with was the two Jeffs (Malone and Horneck). Scottie and Michael had Dennis Rodman and Horace Grant.

What you win doesn't tell the whole story. Robert Horry has more rings than Jordan. Do you take Horry over Jordan? Russell got almost twice as many rings as Jordan, would you take Jordan over Russell?

Winning is as much about your situation as it is about your talent. And besides, Jordan had the officials on his side ever game, so his winning doesn't impress me as much as it does others. I watch almost every Bulls series in the 90's and it was brutal how biased the officiating was in Jordan's favour. The Bulls made up 60% of the league's revenue and the league needed him in the finals to get the ratings.

Sorry I don't ride on Jordan's nuts. Give me a HOF center over a HOF SG any day of the week.

smith&wesson
08-18-2012, 07:53 PM
who would you build your team around ?

magic or duncan ? kobe or shaq ? durant or howard ? mj or lebron ?

Saad
08-18-2012, 08:06 PM
I think people usually do this during the draft. In the end you can't teach height and as raw as a big man can be, he's worth the risk.

StarvingKnick22
08-18-2012, 08:31 PM
here is how it goes down, its easy for a PG to do what a Center can do, but a Center can almost never do what a Point Gaurd can do. so yeah im going with a short.

Im_in_Mia_bish
09-17-2012, 03:52 PM
whats the point of this thread?
if youre talking about draft picks, when is any player a 'proven winner'?

u wouldnt choose ewing over bird because u have seen their careers played out, but youre telling me str8 from out of college, no racism, you'd choose a crafty white guy over a 7 foot big man?
i am also assuming that the hype is the same surrounding the players.

idk man.. there is a reason why greg oden was chosen before kd. prime example there.

Mr_Jones
09-17-2012, 03:57 PM
People need to understand what it means when it says take the big over the small. You take the big over the small if they are more proven, but when the small if much more proven you take them. Just because Dwight is a big doesn't mean you take him over Magic Johnson who is a proven winner and shown he can get it done as the man.
Just because Patrick Ewing is a big doesn't mean I'm taking him over Larry Bird.

Whatever, **** you.

Manimal
09-17-2012, 04:08 PM
People forget Oden was dominant. The injuries were unfortunate. But Oden was a beast of a player. 7 foot athletic guy, who could block anybody in the paint. Monster on the boards and un-guardable in the paint. I once saw the guy receive a pass on the foul line and dunk without a dribble.

If not for the injuries, Portland would have the most terrorizing front court in the league in Oden and Aldridge. Unfortunately for Portland their luck with injuries is just horrible. I am starting to think it's some kind of curse.

Walton, Bowie, Sabonis, Oden, Branden Roy. If I were Lillard, I'd be very cautious.

SugeKnight
09-17-2012, 04:43 PM
who would you build your team around ?

magic or duncan ? kobe or shaq ? durant or howard ? mj or lebron ?

:confused:

Voodoo Alchemy
09-17-2012, 04:56 PM
oden over durant? bowie over jordan?

SirSkyHook
09-17-2012, 05:03 PM
oden over durant? bowie over jordan?

Why you gotta smack portland in the face like that lol

Kashmir13579
09-17-2012, 05:12 PM
Bird and Magic out-produced the bigs you mentioned anyway??

JordansBulls
09-17-2012, 07:53 PM
Because Magic and Bird could both rebound as well as a PF and made players around them better. They are very different players than Jordan. I'd rather have a great PG than a great SG. Bird was a double digit rebounder and Magic could play ever position on the court. In teh 81/82 season, Magic came closer to averaging a triple double than anybody outisde of the Big O. 18+ points, 9.5 assists and 9.6 rebounds.

Jordan was a great rebounder for his position, but I would rather have a guy giving me 25+ points a game who is also grabbing 10-12 rebounds a game, than a guy who scores 30+ and grabs 5 or 6 rebounds per game.

So yeah, I would rather build around Karl Malone than Michael Jordan, and for that matter I would rather have Stockton than Jordan for my back court.

Jordan had a lot of talent around him. Proven veterans. The best Stockton and Malone had to work with was the two Jeffs (Malone and Horneck). Scottie and Michael had Dennis Rodman and Horace Grant.

What you win doesn't tell the whole story. Robert Horry has more rings than Jordan. Do you take Horry over Jordan? Russell got almost twice as many rings as Jordan, would you take Jordan over Russell?

Winning is as much about your situation as it is about your talent. And besides, Jordan had the officials on his side ever game, so his winning doesn't impress me as much as it does others. I watch almost every Bulls series in the 90's and it was brutal how biased the officiating was in Jordan's favour. The Bulls made up 60% of the league's revenue and the league needed him in the finals to get the ratings.

Sorry I don't ride on Jordan's nuts. Give me a HOF center over a HOF SG any day of the week.

And you would be completely wrong and just stupid for taking Malone and definitely crazy taking Stockton over MJ.

So I'm supposed to build my team around a guy who underperforms when in the playoffs even when on teams that are good enough to win it all and who has another top 10 player all time?

Wow that is interesting logic there.

You can do whatever you want, but I'm taking the guy who performs better when it matters most and who has gotten it done more often.
Do you realize how disappointing it is to a fan and owner to see a guy who is good to build around, but just can't get it done in the playoffs because he performs worse when it matters most?

Nothing could be more frustating and that is what happens if you choose Wilt.

So essentially, I'll take the guy who showed up in the playoffs and led teams to multiple titles and has the most finals mvp's over a guy who choked when in the finals and quit on his team in game 7 and then shot 1-11 from the free throw and got outplayed by an injured Willis Reed.
You can say what you want about Wilt, but the results speak differently. The guy was on loaded teams and had big advantages and still couldn't pull thru.

He lost 5 series with HCA and even got swept to a team below .500

Not to mention his numbers dropped dramatically from season to playoffs. He averaged 7 ppg less in the playoffs and had a PER that dropped from 26.1 to 22.8
Also his WS/PER 48 dropped from .248 to .2000



I used the 1988-1995 window is that this is the time period Stockton fans were pointing to when many of us criticized his peak and his dominance. During these years he was playing with Karl Malone who was playing at a top 20 all time level. Their peaks nearly perfectly overlapped. While Malone was slightly more dominant in the late 90s he was still playing at an elite level

If Stockton really was a top 30 player all time the Jazz should have accomplished a lot more. Here are the Jazz stats from this era.

53 wins per season
4 First round exits
2 Semi-finals exits
2 conference final appearances.

I’m going to use to prove a point oftypically happens when two top 30 players play together. I’m going to ignore seasons when one of the player was clearly past his peak (I’ll use MVP voting, All NBA teams as criteria here). To qualify both players must have made the top 30.

The beginning season will be when both players either made an all/NBA team or received MVP votes. The end of their run together will be considered the last season for one player to receive MVP votes or All-NBA selections.

I will not address injuries in this comparison or seasons when an all time great player returns to the NBA after playing minor league baseball out of grief for his father‘s death or because David Stern secretly suspended that player for gambling. I also will treat seasons were the top 30 player was acquired in a trade as if the top 30 player played there for the entire season. This actually favors the Jazz because many of these players had seasons were 1 player was injured during the playoffs.

You mention Rodman and Grant and yet forget to mention Eaton and Hornecek who were actually good players before ever playing with Stockton and Malone.


If any elite big can do this then why weren't they dominating and winning without elite guards? Why did they have to get traded in order to win?

Sorry no, MJ didn't benefit from rule changes, however Wilt did. In fact, if Wilt showed up in playoff series more often he would have won. Explain to me how Wilt could have played in more playoff games than both Elgin Baylor and Jerry West, yet both of them have more 30+ and more 40+ point games than he did in his own era? Explain to me why West and Baylor made the finals more than Wilt in his own era and then

Wilt had to tag along with them to try to win as well and why he Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals while it was his teammate that averaged 37.9 ppg.
Explain to me how you think HCA is not important when it clearly shows you have an elite team and a team that is just as good as the next team if not better, but when you lose with it, it is unimportant?

Simply put, if I am an alltime great and I have the better record or same and I have the HCA or Home Field Advantage (Baseball or Football) or HIA (Home Ice Advantage - Hockey), I expect to win that series.

Now if you are not an all time great player then it might not make a difference but it is certainly important for all time legends.
You don't think New England loss in the playoffs in 2011 vs the Jets with HFA wouldn't affect Bradys rep?


Jordan's teams had HCA in 24 playoff series throughout his career, and they were 24-0 in all of them. Thats not an achievement? His teams were the favorites 24 times, and never once did they get upset.
You can't say that for pretty much any other superstar that has played in that many series.

Does that make him the automatic GOAT?
No, of course not cause there are other things to take into consideration, but IMO it definitely makes his case stronger.

And if 25/12 was better than 30/6/5 than why would MJ have the higher and highest PER and WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs all time even in the same era that Malone, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Magic, Bird played?

I guess you would take Brad Daugherty over Isiah Thomas as well wouldn't you?


Lets look at their FTA rates. Not counting Jordan's Wizards years. FTAs per 2pt FGA.

Player - Reg. Season / Playoffs
Jordan - 0.405 / 0.436
LeBron - 0.539 / 0.640
Kobe - 0.485 / 0.509
Wade - 0.542 / 0.512

What about guys from Jordan's era?

Magic - 0.538 / 0.544
Drexler - 0.396 / 0.443
R. Miller - 0.638 / 0.676
Richmond - 0.425

Sure, Jordan got a lot of calls - but the numbers show that they were not different from what other stars were getting. MJ's games were just televised more. He attacked the rim more. He took more shots. So it seemed like he was getting more calls. As for you last sentence, as you can see from the numbers - you're completely wrong.


To add:

Manu - 0.438 / 0.480
Harden - 0.503 / 0.589
Durant - 0.412 / 0.465

But Jordan got the most calls ever



There's a reason you like looking at FT totals as opposed to FTA/gm, and here's why:

1990 -

Michael Jordan - 8.5 FTA/gm on 24.0 FGA/gm
Magic Johnson - 8.1 FTA/gm on 14.4 FGA/gm
Kevin Johnson - 8.1 FTA/gm on 15.7 FGA/gm
Reggie Miller - 7.6 FTA/gm on 15.7 FGA/gm
Chris Mullin - 7.3 FTA/gm on 16.3 FGA/gm

1991:

Michael Jordan - 8.2 FTA/gm on 22.4 FGA/gm
Kevin Johnson - 8.0 FTA/gm on 14.9 FGA/gm
Bernard King - 7.6 FTA/gm on 23.6 FGA/gm
Reggie Miller - 7.3 FTA/gm on 14.2 FGA/gm
Magic Johnson - 7.3 FTA/gm on 12.4 FGA/gm
Chris Mullin - 7.1 FTA/gm on 17.7 FGA.gm
Hersey Hawkins - 6.9 FTA/gm on 15.6 FGA/gm

1992:

Michael Jordan - 7.4 FTA/gm on 22.7 FGA/gm
Kevin Johnson - 7.1 FTA/gm on 14.4 FGA/gm
Reggie Miller - 7.3 FTA/gm on 14.2 FGA/gm

1993:

Detlef Schrempf - 8.0 FTA/gm on 13.2 FGA/gm
Michael Jordan - 7.3 FTA/gm on 25.7 FGA/gm
Sarunas Marciulionis - 7.1 FTA/gm on 10.9 FGA/gm

As you can see, each season there were several perimeter players who were within .2-1.0 FTA/gm of Jordan in terms of raw numbers. However, they were doing this on far fewer shot attempts - in some cases, only half as many. This means that they were getting far more fouls called per FGA than Jordan. How can this be if Jordan was getting special treatment? Jordan would have had to have averaged 11-13 FTA/gm during these years for that to be the case, but we don't see that at all.

Then you have this quote from Phil Jackson:


Jackson said he believed Michael Jordan was fouled on every play when he coached the Bulls. He said coaches and players would tell the referees, "Don't give him those cheap calls."

Jackson said the referees seemed to agree and didn't give Jordan the calls because he "was good enough to do it anyway."

"You just watch it in amazement," Jackson said.

You'd expect him to at least have the highest FTA/FGA ratio among perimeter players based on this if MJ truly got special treatment. Instead, he's waaaaaaay down the list in terms of FTA/FGA ratio compared both to his contemporaries as well as current players.

And '90-'93 was when people starting this nonsense about beneficial treatment for Jordan from the refs, so I'm not sure why you're posting numbers from '85-'89. No one in their right mind believed that Jordan didn't earn his FT's in the mid-;ate 80's - dude was unstoppable, and a relentless attacker.



Jordan has two seasons of 10+ FTA/g, both on 24+ FGA/g.

You realize his career FTA/FGA is about 0.358, right? That's WAY lower than what you see out of Kobe, Wade, Lebron, etc, etc. Kobe's career FTA/FGA, even accounting for his pre-05 seasons, is .395, and it would have been higher if he'd played his entire career in years from 04-05 onward. Wade's at .503, Lebron at .434, Melo at about .410.

Should I go on?

Anyone who complains that Jordan got too many calls is flat-out ignorant. There aren't many seasons where his raw FTA/g were that bad, and there are only two or three seasons where he got anything like the favorable treatment seen by stars today. He got to the line because, like someone such as Wade, he drove a lot. Only the rules were different and he had to drive and shoot a lot more to earn his trips to the line. It's pure BS when people complain that Jordan got more calls than anyone else. David Robinson, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are all examples of guys that got roughly equivalent or noticeably more favorable treatment from the refs in terms of how often they went to the line. Barkley's at .554 FTA/FGA on his career, BTW, while Robinson and Malone are at .577 and .503.

Did someone want to go back and re-learn their NBA history before continuing?

Thanks.

SirSkyHook
09-24-2012, 05:03 AM
And you would be completely wrong and just stupid for taking Malone and definitely crazy taking Stockton over MJ.

So I'm supposed to build my team around a guy who underperforms when in the playoffs even when on teams that are good enough to win it all and who has another top 10 player all time?

Wow that is interesting logic there.

You can do whatever you want, but I'm taking the guy who performs better when it matters most and who has gotten it done more often.
Do you realize how disappointing it is to a fan and owner to see a guy who is good to build around, but just can't get it done in the playoffs because he performs worse when it matters most?

Nothing could be more frustating and that is what happens if you choose Wilt.

So essentially, I'll take the guy who showed up in the playoffs and led teams to multiple titles and has the most finals mvp's over a guy who choked when in the finals and quit on his team in game 7 and then shot 1-11 from the free throw and got outplayed by an injured Willis Reed.
You can say what you want about Wilt, but the results speak differently. The guy was on loaded teams and had big advantages and still couldn't pull thru.

He lost 5 series with HCA and even got swept to a team below .500

Not to mention his numbers dropped dramatically from season to playoffs. He averaged 7 ppg less in the playoffs and had a PER that dropped from 26.1 to 22.8
Also his WS/PER 48 dropped from .248 to .2000



I used the 1988-1995 window is that this is the time period Stockton fans were pointing to when many of us criticized his peak and his dominance. During these years he was playing with Karl Malone who was playing at a top 20 all time level. Their peaks nearly perfectly overlapped. While Malone was slightly more dominant in the late 90s he was still playing at an elite level

If Stockton really was a top 30 player all time the Jazz should have accomplished a lot more. Here are the Jazz stats from this era.

53 wins per season
4 First round exits
2 Semi-finals exits
2 conference final appearances.

I’m going to use to prove a point oftypically happens when two top 30 players play together. I’m going to ignore seasons when one of the player was clearly past his peak (I’ll use MVP voting, All NBA teams as criteria here). To qualify both players must have made the top 30.

The beginning season will be when both players either made an all/NBA team or received MVP votes. The end of their run together will be considered the last season for one player to receive MVP votes or All-NBA selections.

I will not address injuries in this comparison or seasons when an all time great player returns to the NBA after playing minor league baseball out of grief for his father‘s death or because David Stern secretly suspended that player for gambling. I also will treat seasons were the top 30 player was acquired in a trade as if the top 30 player played there for the entire season. This actually favors the Jazz because many of these players had seasons were 1 player was injured during the playoffs.

You mention Rodman and Grant and yet forget to mention Eaton and Hornecek who were actually good players before ever playing with Stockton and Malone.


If any elite big can do this then why weren't they dominating and winning without elite guards? Why did they have to get traded in order to win?

Sorry no, MJ didn't benefit from rule changes, however Wilt did. In fact, if Wilt showed up in playoff series more often he would have won. Explain to me how Wilt could have played in more playoff games than both Elgin Baylor and Jerry West, yet both of them have more 30+ and more 40+ point games than he did in his own era? Explain to me why West and Baylor made the finals more than Wilt in his own era and then

Wilt had to tag along with them to try to win as well and why he Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals while it was his teammate that averaged 37.9 ppg.
Explain to me how you think HCA is not important when it clearly shows you have an elite team and a team that is just as good as the next team if not better, but when you lose with it, it is unimportant?

Simply put, if I am an alltime great and I have the better record or same and I have the HCA or Home Field Advantage (Baseball or Football) or HIA (Home Ice Advantage - Hockey), I expect to win that series.

Now if you are not an all time great player then it might not make a difference but it is certainly important for all time legends.
You don't think New England loss in the playoffs in 2011 vs the Jets with HFA wouldn't affect Bradys rep?


Jordan's teams had HCA in 24 playoff series throughout his career, and they were 24-0 in all of them. Thats not an achievement? His teams were the favorites 24 times, and never once did they get upset.
You can't say that for pretty much any other superstar that has played in that many series.

Does that make him the automatic GOAT?
No, of course not cause there are other things to take into consideration, but IMO it definitely makes his case stronger.

And if 25/12 was better than 30/6/5 than why would MJ have the higher and highest PER and WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs all time even in the same era that Malone, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Magic, Bird played?

I guess you would take Brad Daugherty over Isiah Thomas as well wouldn't you?


Lets look at their FTA rates. Not counting Jordan's Wizards years. FTAs per 2pt FGA.

Player - Reg. Season / Playoffs
Jordan - 0.405 / 0.436
LeBron - 0.539 / 0.640
Kobe - 0.485 / 0.509
Wade - 0.542 / 0.512

What about guys from Jordan's era?

Magic - 0.538 / 0.544
Drexler - 0.396 / 0.443
R. Miller - 0.638 / 0.676
Richmond - 0.425

Sure, Jordan got a lot of calls - but the numbers show that they were not different from what other stars were getting. MJ's games were just televised more. He attacked the rim more. He took more shots. So it seemed like he was getting more calls. As for you last sentence, as you can see from the numbers - you're completely wrong.


To add:

Manu - 0.438 / 0.480
Harden - 0.503 / 0.589
Durant - 0.412 / 0.465

But Jordan got the most calls ever



There's a reason you like looking at FT totals as opposed to FTA/gm, and here's why:

1990 -

Michael Jordan - 8.5 FTA/gm on 24.0 FGA/gm
Magic Johnson - 8.1 FTA/gm on 14.4 FGA/gm
Kevin Johnson - 8.1 FTA/gm on 15.7 FGA/gm
Reggie Miller - 7.6 FTA/gm on 15.7 FGA/gm
Chris Mullin - 7.3 FTA/gm on 16.3 FGA/gm

1991:

Michael Jordan - 8.2 FTA/gm on 22.4 FGA/gm
Kevin Johnson - 8.0 FTA/gm on 14.9 FGA/gm
Bernard King - 7.6 FTA/gm on 23.6 FGA/gm
Reggie Miller - 7.3 FTA/gm on 14.2 FGA/gm
Magic Johnson - 7.3 FTA/gm on 12.4 FGA/gm
Chris Mullin - 7.1 FTA/gm on 17.7 FGA.gm
Hersey Hawkins - 6.9 FTA/gm on 15.6 FGA/gm

1992:

Michael Jordan - 7.4 FTA/gm on 22.7 FGA/gm
Kevin Johnson - 7.1 FTA/gm on 14.4 FGA/gm
Reggie Miller - 7.3 FTA/gm on 14.2 FGA/gm

1993:

Detlef Schrempf - 8.0 FTA/gm on 13.2 FGA/gm
Michael Jordan - 7.3 FTA/gm on 25.7 FGA/gm
Sarunas Marciulionis - 7.1 FTA/gm on 10.9 FGA/gm

As you can see, each season there were several perimeter players who were within .2-1.0 FTA/gm of Jordan in terms of raw numbers. However, they were doing this on far fewer shot attempts - in some cases, only half as many. This means that they were getting far more fouls called per FGA than Jordan. How can this be if Jordan was getting special treatment? Jordan would have had to have averaged 11-13 FTA/gm during these years for that to be the case, but we don't see that at all.

Then you have this quote from Phil Jackson:



You'd expect him to at least have the highest FTA/FGA ratio among perimeter players based on this if MJ truly got special treatment. Instead, he's waaaaaaay down the list in terms of FTA/FGA ratio compared both to his contemporaries as well as current players.

And '90-'93 was when people starting this nonsense about beneficial treatment for Jordan from the refs, so I'm not sure why you're posting numbers from '85-'89. No one in their right mind believed that Jordan didn't earn his FT's in the mid-;ate 80's - dude was unstoppable, and a relentless attacker.



Jordan has two seasons of 10+ FTA/g, both on 24+ FGA/g.

You realize his career FTA/FGA is about 0.358, right? That's WAY lower than what you see out of Kobe, Wade, Lebron, etc, etc. Kobe's career FTA/FGA, even accounting for his pre-05 seasons, is .395, and it would have been higher if he'd played his entire career in years from 04-05 onward. Wade's at .503, Lebron at .434, Melo at about .410.

Should I go on?

Anyone who complains that Jordan got too many calls is flat-out ignorant. There aren't many seasons where his raw FTA/g were that bad, and there are only two or three seasons where he got anything like the favorable treatment seen by stars today. He got to the line because, like someone such as Wade, he drove a lot. Only the rules were different and he had to drive and shoot a lot more to earn his trips to the line. It's pure BS when people complain that Jordan got more calls than anyone else. David Robinson, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are all examples of guys that got roughly equivalent or noticeably more favorable treatment from the refs in terms of how often they went to the line. Barkley's at .554 FTA/FGA on his career, BTW, while Robinson and Malone are at .577 and .503.

Did someone want to go back and re-learn their NBA history before continuing?

Thanks.

This way to much time on your hands lol but good info

amos1er
09-24-2012, 05:50 AM
And you would be completely wrong and just stupid for taking Malone and definitely crazy taking Stockton over MJ.

So I'm supposed to build my team around a guy who underperforms when in the playoffs even when on teams that are good enough to win it all and who has another top 10 player all time?

Wow that is interesting logic there.

You can do whatever you want, but I'm taking the guy who performs better when it matters most and who has gotten it done more often.
Do you realize how disappointing it is to a fan and owner to see a guy who is good to build around, but just can't get it done in the playoffs because he performs worse when it matters most?

Nothing could be more frustating and that is what happens if you choose Wilt.

So essentially, I'll take the guy who showed up in the playoffs and led teams to multiple titles and has the most finals mvp's over a guy who choked when in the finals and quit on his team in game 7 and then shot 1-11 from the free throw and got outplayed by an injured Willis Reed.
You can say what you want about Wilt, but the results speak differently. The guy was on loaded teams and had big advantages and still couldn't pull thru.

He lost 5 series with HCA and even got swept to a team below .500

Not to mention his numbers dropped dramatically from season to playoffs. He averaged 7 ppg less in the playoffs and had a PER that dropped from 26.1 to 22.8
Also his WS/PER 48 dropped from .248 to .2000



I used the 1988-1995 window is that this is the time period Stockton fans were pointing to when many of us criticized his peak and his dominance. During these years he was playing with Karl Malone who was playing at a top 20 all time level. Their peaks nearly perfectly overlapped. While Malone was slightly more dominant in the late 90s he was still playing at an elite level

If Stockton really was a top 30 player all time the Jazz should have accomplished a lot more. Here are the Jazz stats from this era.

53 wins per season
4 First round exits
2 Semi-finals exits
2 conference final appearances.

I’m going to use to prove a point oftypically happens when two top 30 players play together. I’m going to ignore seasons when one of the player was clearly past his peak (I’ll use MVP voting, All NBA teams as criteria here). To qualify both players must have made the top 30.

The beginning season will be when both players either made an all/NBA team or received MVP votes. The end of their run together will be considered the last season for one player to receive MVP votes or All-NBA selections.

I will not address injuries in this comparison or seasons when an all time great player returns to the NBA after playing minor league baseball out of grief for his father‘s death or because David Stern secretly suspended that player for gambling. I also will treat seasons were the top 30 player was acquired in a trade as if the top 30 player played there for the entire season. This actually favors the Jazz because many of these players had seasons were 1 player was injured during the playoffs.

You mention Rodman and Grant and yet forget to mention Eaton and Hornecek who were actually good players before ever playing with Stockton and Malone.


If any elite big can do this then why weren't they dominating and winning without elite guards? Why did they have to get traded in order to win?

Sorry no, MJ didn't benefit from rule changes, however Wilt did. In fact, if Wilt showed up in playoff series more often he would have won. Explain to me how Wilt could have played in more playoff games than both Elgin Baylor and Jerry West, yet both of them have more 30+ and more 40+ point games than he did in his own era? Explain to me why West and Baylor made the finals more than Wilt in his own era and then

Wilt had to tag along with them to try to win as well and why he Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals while it was his teammate that averaged 37.9 ppg.
Explain to me how you think HCA is not important when it clearly shows you have an elite team and a team that is just as good as the next team if not better, but when you lose with it, it is unimportant?

Simply put, if I am an alltime great and I have the better record or same and I have the HCA or Home Field Advantage (Baseball or Football) or HIA (Home Ice Advantage - Hockey), I expect to win that series.

Now if you are not an all time great player then it might not make a difference but it is certainly important for all time legends.
You don't think New England loss in the playoffs in 2011 vs the Jets with HFA wouldn't affect Bradys rep?


Jordan's teams had HCA in 24 playoff series throughout his career, and they were 24-0 in all of them. Thats not an achievement? His teams were the favorites 24 times, and never once did they get upset.
You can't say that for pretty much any other superstar that has played in that many series.

Does that make him the automatic GOAT?
No, of course not cause there are other things to take into consideration, but IMO it definitely makes his case stronger.

And if 25/12 was better than 30/6/5 than why would MJ have the higher and highest PER and WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs all time even in the same era that Malone, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Magic, Bird played?

I guess you would take Brad Daugherty over Isiah Thomas as well wouldn't you?


Lets look at their FTA rates. Not counting Jordan's Wizards years. FTAs per 2pt FGA.

Player - Reg. Season / Playoffs
Jordan - 0.405 / 0.436
LeBron - 0.539 / 0.640
Kobe - 0.485 / 0.509
Wade - 0.542 / 0.512

What about guys from Jordan's era?

Magic - 0.538 / 0.544
Drexler - 0.396 / 0.443
R. Miller - 0.638 / 0.676
Richmond - 0.425

Sure, Jordan got a lot of calls - but the numbers show that they were not different from what other stars were getting. MJ's games were just televised more. He attacked the rim more. He took more shots. So it seemed like he was getting more calls. As for you last sentence, as you can see from the numbers - you're completely wrong.


To add:

Manu - 0.438 / 0.480
Harden - 0.503 / 0.589
Durant - 0.412 / 0.465

But Jordan got the most calls ever



There's a reason you like looking at FT totals as opposed to FTA/gm, and here's why:

1990 -

Michael Jordan - 8.5 FTA/gm on 24.0 FGA/gm
Magic Johnson - 8.1 FTA/gm on 14.4 FGA/gm
Kevin Johnson - 8.1 FTA/gm on 15.7 FGA/gm
Reggie Miller - 7.6 FTA/gm on 15.7 FGA/gm
Chris Mullin - 7.3 FTA/gm on 16.3 FGA/gm

1991:

Michael Jordan - 8.2 FTA/gm on 22.4 FGA/gm
Kevin Johnson - 8.0 FTA/gm on 14.9 FGA/gm
Bernard King - 7.6 FTA/gm on 23.6 FGA/gm
Reggie Miller - 7.3 FTA/gm on 14.2 FGA/gm
Magic Johnson - 7.3 FTA/gm on 12.4 FGA/gm
Chris Mullin - 7.1 FTA/gm on 17.7 FGA.gm
Hersey Hawkins - 6.9 FTA/gm on 15.6 FGA/gm

1992:

Michael Jordan - 7.4 FTA/gm on 22.7 FGA/gm
Kevin Johnson - 7.1 FTA/gm on 14.4 FGA/gm
Reggie Miller - 7.3 FTA/gm on 14.2 FGA/gm

1993:

Detlef Schrempf - 8.0 FTA/gm on 13.2 FGA/gm
Michael Jordan - 7.3 FTA/gm on 25.7 FGA/gm
Sarunas Marciulionis - 7.1 FTA/gm on 10.9 FGA/gm

As you can see, each season there were several perimeter players who were within .2-1.0 FTA/gm of Jordan in terms of raw numbers. However, they were doing this on far fewer shot attempts - in some cases, only half as many. This means that they were getting far more fouls called per FGA than Jordan. How can this be if Jordan was getting special treatment? Jordan would have had to have averaged 11-13 FTA/gm during these years for that to be the case, but we don't see that at all.

Then you have this quote from Phil Jackson:



You'd expect him to at least have the highest FTA/FGA ratio among perimeter players based on this if MJ truly got special treatment. Instead, he's waaaaaaay down the list in terms of FTA/FGA ratio compared both to his contemporaries as well as current players.

And '90-'93 was when people starting this nonsense about beneficial treatment for Jordan from the refs, so I'm not sure why you're posting numbers from '85-'89. No one in their right mind believed that Jordan didn't earn his FT's in the mid-;ate 80's - dude was unstoppable, and a relentless attacker.



Jordan has two seasons of 10+ FTA/g, both on 24+ FGA/g.

You realize his career FTA/FGA is about 0.358, right? That's WAY lower than what you see out of Kobe, Wade, Lebron, etc, etc. Kobe's career FTA/FGA, even accounting for his pre-05 seasons, is .395, and it would have been higher if he'd played his entire career in years from 04-05 onward. Wade's at .503, Lebron at .434, Melo at about .410.

Should I go on?

Anyone who complains that Jordan got too many calls is flat-out ignorant. There aren't many seasons where his raw FTA/g were that bad, and there are only two or three seasons where he got anything like the favorable treatment seen by stars today. He got to the line because, like someone such as Wade, he drove a lot. Only the rules were different and he had to drive and shoot a lot more to earn his trips to the line. It's pure BS when people complain that Jordan got more calls than anyone else. David Robinson, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are all examples of guys that got roughly equivalent or noticeably more favorable treatment from the refs in terms of how often they went to the line. Barkley's at .554 FTA/FGA on his career, BTW, while Robinson and Malone are at .577 and .503.

Did someone want to go back and re-learn their NBA history before continuing?

Thanks.

WOW!!!

Great post.

But you don't need to type all that to prove that Jordan didn't get as much help from the refs as does Wade and Lebron. lol It's pretty damn obvious.

I think its pretty funny how much love Lebron and Wade get from the refs compared to Jordan and Kobe. I have always said that Lebron and Wade get the most help from the refs than compared to any other superstar in the history of the NBA.

Andrew32
09-24-2012, 05:55 AM
WOW!!!

Great post.

But you don't need to type all that to prove that Jordan didn't get as much help from the refs as does Wade and Lebron. lol It's pretty damn obvious.

I think its pretty funny how much love Lebron and Wade get from the refs compared to Jordan and Kobe. I have always said that Lebron and Wade get the most help from the refs than any other superstar in the history of the NBA.

lol... no one gets more love from the refs then Kobe does.

Wade has always had to fight for his calls.
The refs rarely give him a break despite some people feeling differently.
This last season specifically there were so many times Wade got fouled but they didn't call it... was pathetic.

Older Kobe over the years in comparison to Wade has gotten a similar amount of FT's and has a similar FTA rate despite him not being nearly as aggressive in terms of consistently attacking the basket and Wade being a vastly superior slasher.

amos1er
09-24-2012, 05:57 AM
lol... no one gets more love from the refs then Kobe does.

Wade has always had to fight for his calls.
The refs rarely give him a break despite some people feeling differently.
This last season specifically there were so many times Wade got fouled but they didn't call it... was pathetic.

Older Kobe over the years in comparison to Wade has gotten a similar amount of FT's and has a similar FTRate despite him not being nearly as aggressive in terms of consistently attacking the basket and Wade being a vastly superior slasher.

Maybe you need to re-read the post from Jordansbulls because he clearly proves your little theory wrong.

Andrew32
09-24-2012, 05:59 AM
Maybe you need to re-read the post from Jordansbulls because he clearly proves your little theory wrong.



Player - Playoffs

Kobe - 0.509
Wade - 0.512


:punish:

amos1er
09-24-2012, 06:01 AM
lol... no one gets more love from the refs then Kobe does.

Wade has always had to fight for his calls.
The refs rarely give him a break despite some people feeling differently.
This last season specifically there were so many times Wade got fouled but they didn't call it... was pathetic.

Older Kobe over the years in comparison to Wade has gotten a similar amount of FT's and has a similar FTA rate despite him not being nearly as aggressive in terms of consistently attacking the basket and Wade being a vastly superior slasher.

Oh and if you truly think that Wade doesn't get hooked up by the refs like none other than have a look at this and still try to tell me that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLwaptt4I1Z3RavJmAnnFn1Q

http://www.ericfolkerth.com/wheneftalks/files/archive-19.html

amos1er
09-24-2012, 06:03 AM
:punish:

Of course you conveniently leave out the regular season stats once again. :rolleyes:

Why don't you try posting Wade's numbers from the 2006 finals and compare them to any other superstar in the history of the NBA and see if anyone got more hooked up than he did.

Andrew32
09-24-2012, 06:07 AM
Oh and if you truly think that Wade doesn't get hooked up by the refs like none other than have a look at this and still try to tell me that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLwaptt4I1Z3RavJmAnnFn1Q

http://www.ericfolkerth.com/wheneftalks/files/archive-19.html
That video starts out by showing a clear foul on Wade (turns video off).

I watched that 2006 Finals series live.
You could count on one hand the number of calls Wade got that weren't clear/obvious fouls based on that years rules.

Why should Wade be penalized for his ability to get to the basket and draw fouls?
I see no evidence having watched that series multiple times that the refs were giving him any sort of handicap... its a ******** conspiracy theory and the only people who buy into it are either angry Maverick fans or Wade haters.

Also for your information.
PPG scored on FG's (not FT's)
2006 Wade in the Finals (in the 4 Wins) : 25ppg
2009 Kobe in the Finals : 25ppg

Andrew32
09-24-2012, 06:10 AM
Why don't you try posting Wade's numbers from the 2006 finals and compare them to any other superstar in the history of the NBA and see if anyone got more hooked up than he did.

So because Wade is a GOAT slasher and made the Finals in a year where they were heavily enforcing the anti hand-checking rules he should be penalized?

You know that Dirk had 7 games in that years playoffs with 14+ FTA and 1 game with 24+ FTA where he took more FT then the entire opposing team?
Quick lets discredit Dirk! :facepalm:

Andrew32
09-24-2012, 06:12 AM
The fact is Wade scored 25ppg in the 4 Finals wins that year on FG's.
Kobe scored 25ppg in the 2009 Finals on FG's.
Lebron scored 21ppg in the 2012 Finals on FG's.

Wade did not rely on FT's they merely added to his already impressive point total.

amos1er
09-24-2012, 06:15 AM
That video starts out by showing a clear foul on Wade (turns video off).

I watched that 2006 Finals series live.
You could count on one hand the number of calls Wade got that weren't clear/obvious fouls based on that years rules.

Why should Wade be penalized for his ability to get to the basket and draw fouls?
I see no evidence having watched that series multiple times that the refs were giving him any sort of handicap... its a ******** conspiracy theory and the only people who buy into it are either angry Maverick fans or Wade haters.

Also for your information.
PPG scored on FG's (not FT's)
2006 Wade in the Finals (in the 4 Wins) : 25ppg
2009 Kobe in the Finals : 25ppg

LMAO if you don't see anything wrong with the 2006 finals. :facepalm:

This particular writer seems to think that the 2006 finals were the most controversial in NBA history. Even worse than the 2002 WCF.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1173800-10-worst-officiated-games-in-nba-history-could-the-nba-really-be-rigged/page/12


1. Games 3-6, 2006 NBA Finals (this series made number one on his list)

This series still sickens me. The NBA needed a star, so they created one. Never in the history not only of basketball, but of sports as a whole, have referees so blatantly and continuously attempted to hand a championship to a player and team.

Let's look at the raw numbers. Dwyane Wade shot 97 free throws in six games, good for a record in any six-game NBA series, only two off of the record for a seven-game series. In Game 5, he shot 25 free throws, the same amount as the entire Dallas team.

If you don't think those free throws are important, remember that Games 3, 5 and 6 were all determined by three points or less.

For some reason, numbers like that don't convince people, so let's go back and look. Watch this. Or this. Or this. Or this. Or, my personal favorite, this.

Excuses can be made for bad calls on single plays. Even what happened between the Lakers and Kings can be excused (slightly) by saying that it's only one game, the Kings had another chance to win the series.

But what happened during those four nights in 2006 left a mark on the NBA's historical resumé so big that it can never really be erased. Miami, although technically not a bigger market, is a more nationally relevant city than Dallas. They had the two biggest stars of the series—one that was there for his last rodeo, the other ready to build a legacy at his first.

Unfortunately for Maverick players, supporters and ultimately fans everywhere, that legacy was built for him. Say what you will, but I don't think any reasonable fan or person can deny that something weird was going on.

I'd go on about this, but I'm fairly certain Bennett Salvatore would read this and call a foul on me for speaking out against the holy Wade.

amos1er
09-24-2012, 06:19 AM
That video starts out by showing a clear foul on Wade (turns video off).

:laugh: Maybe you need to take off your rose colored Wade glasses and watch that video again.



Here is some expert analysis about game five of the 2006 NBA finals in regards to Wade's alleged superstar treatment and the very call I was referring to.
http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm

Here is some additional evidence about Wade's superstar treatment from the refs during that era.
http://www.82games.com/fouldraw.htm

amos1er
09-24-2012, 06:40 AM
You know that Dirk had 7 games in that years playoffs with 14+ FTA and 1 game with 24+ FTA where he took more FT then the entire opposing team? Quick lets discredit Dirk! :facepalm:

lol Are you are actually comparing some arbitrary playoff games to a finals series and a pivotal game 5? Talk about comparing things out of context. :rolleyes:

Can you even provide a source backing up these alleged games?

Andrew32
09-24-2012, 06:42 AM
lol Are you are actually comparing some arbitrary regular season games to a finals series and a pivotal game 5? Talk about comparing things out of context. :rolleyes:
Are you blind?
Those 7-8 games I mentioned in regards to Dirk all took place in the 2006 playoffs.

Also those links don't say Wade got any benefit from the refs.
The one game they reviewed (G5) showed (in their opinion) that there were only 2-3 clearly bad calls and 2 others which were unclear.

Even assuming they are 100% correct that means the Heat got a 2-4 extra calls.

Wow... totally rigged. :o

Andrew32
09-24-2012, 06:47 AM
Anyway... I am done arguing and I have to leave for work.

If you actually watched that series you'll see the majority of the fouls on Wade came with some clear contact.
Either Wade's arm was grabbed or he was shoved or something similar.

There were maybe a handful of calls in the entire series which were clearly bad or questionable.
Trying to discredit him by quoting some angry Mav's fan who says "he took alot of FTs / series was rigged" is not really a convincing argument on your part.

amos1er
09-24-2012, 06:51 AM
Are you blind?
Those 7-8 games I mentioned in regards to Dirk all took place in the 2006 playoffs.

Also those links don't say Wade got any benefit from the refs.
The one game they reviewed (G5) showed (in their opinion) that there were only 2-3 clearly bad calls and 2 others which were unclear.

Even assuming they are 100% correct that means the Heat got a 2-4 extra calls.

Wow... totally rigged. :o

I adjusted my post. I Didn't mean to say regular season games.

I love how you conveniently don't respond to my other posts were I have provided clear contrary evidence to your previous ones.

Again, can you provide the stats for these supposed playoff games? Usually when I make such a claim, I site a source and post the evidence to back up my statement. I'll wager that these were some meaningless first round stats that didn't even effect the outcome of the game. Remember, games 3-6 of the 06 finals were all decided by 3 points or less so 2-4 extra bogus calls could have easily made the difference. Were the games you are referring to even close? Can you provide evidence that they were decided by 3 or less points as well?

amos1er
09-24-2012, 06:54 AM
Anyway... I am done arguing and I have to leave for work.

If you actually watched that series you'll see the majority of the fouls on Wade came with some clear contact.
Either Wade's arm was grabbed or he was shoved or something similar.

There were maybe a handful of calls in the entire series which were clearly bad or questionable.
Trying to discredit him by quoting some angry Mav's fan who says "he took alot of FTs / series was rigged" is not really a convincing argument on your part.

I love how you pick and choose which arguments you will respond to. I have clearly provided much more evidence than the rantings of some random Mavs fan. Whether you choose to respond to those is up to you.

amos1er
09-24-2012, 06:56 AM
If you actually watched that series you'll see the majority of the fouls on Wade came with some clear contact.
Either Wade's arm was grabbed or he was shoved or something similar..

Really!!!??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLwaptt4I1Z3RavJmAnnFn1Q http://www.ericfolkerth.com/whenefta...rchive-19.html

Andrew32
09-24-2012, 06:56 AM
Again, can you provide the stats for these supposed playoff games? Usually when I make such a claim, I site a source and post the evidence to back up my statement. I'll wager that these were some meaningless first round stats that didn't even effect the outcome of the game.
Meaningless games?

How about 16 FTA in G7 against the Spurs?
How about 15 FTA in G4 against the Spurs?
24 FTA in G3 against the Spurs when the series was tied 1-1?

18 FTA against Phoenix in G5 after the previous game which ended in a loss.

:clap:

Andrew32
09-24-2012, 06:59 AM
Really!!!??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLwaptt4I1Z3RavJmAnnFn1Q
That video shows 2 fouls. :facepalm:

One which was a clear foul where Howard grabbed his arm and pulled hard and Dirk pushed him.
They conveniently show the worst possible angle on the opposite side so you can't see it but there are pictures available.

The other I think was a bad call... but wow any series is gonna have a few bad calls.

So... yeah you didn't prove your point buddy using a dumb youtube clip.

Unless you can show me proof that more then a handful of calls were bad/questionable you won't convince me or anyone else that the series was rigged or that Wade got any benefit from the refs.

Your argument is basically "it was rigged because I say so" you can't back it up with any actual evidence.

amos1er
09-24-2012, 07:01 AM
Meaningless games?

How about 16 FTA in G7 against the Spurs?
How about 15 FTA in G4 against the Spurs?
24 FTA in G3 against the Spurs when the series was tied 1-1?

18 FTA against Phoenix in G5 after the previous game which ended in a loss.

:clap:

Cool, can you now site a source?

Were those games decided by 3 points or less like the ones in the finals?

How many free throws did the opposing teams and players shoot?

Just want to be sure that these numbers aren't taken out of context. ;)

Andrew32
09-24-2012, 07:04 AM
Cool, can you now site a source?

Were those games decided by 3 points or less like the ones in the finals?

How many free throws did the opposing teams and players shoot?

Just want to be sure that these numbers aren't taken out of context.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01/gamelog/2006/

G3 was a down to the wire game. Maverick's won by 1 point.
G4 was also a close game to the end. Mav's won by 5.
G7 was a very close game throughout.

Same logic... close games, big FT's.
Guess the league gave Dirk calls so he'd beat Duncan and the Spurs.

anyway I rlly got to go... believe what you want but as someone who honestly watched that 2006 Finals I didn't see anything off about it.
Wade was just unguardable and had seemingly limitless energy. He earned those calls with his tremendous play and ability.

amos1er
09-24-2012, 07:04 AM
Unless you can show me proof that more then a handful of calls were bad/questionable you won't convince me or anyone else that the series was rigged or that Wade got any benefit from the refs.


http://www.ericfolkerth.com/wheneftalks/files/archive-19.html

Just scroll down to the end of the page...

amos1er
09-24-2012, 07:08 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01/gamelog/2006/

G3 was a down to the wire game. Maverick's won by 1 point.
G4 was also a close game to the end. Mav's won by 5.
G7 was a very close game throughout.

As usual, you have only answered the parts of my questions that help your argument while conveniently leaving out answering anything that could hurt yours.

Lets try this again...

How many games were actually decided by 3 or less points? You conveniently leave out the point difference in game 7 and game 4 was decided by 5 points so I don't even know why you mentioned it.

What were the free throw totals for the other players and teams?


Here are the facts:

You have only managed to find 1 game that was decided by 3 points or less whereas the 4 games I have mentioned were decided by 3 or less.

You do realize that in game 5 Wade had 25 attempts which was the same amount as the entire Mavs team.

Dirk only averaged 11 FT for the series you are talking about whereas in games 3-6 of the 06 finals Wade averaged 19 attempts per game and all of those were decided by 3 points or less. This was not just one isolated game, it was 4 games in a row. The four games that Miami won.

Dwyane Wade shot 97 free throws in six games, good for a record in any six-game NBA series, only two off of the record for a seven-game series. In Game 5, he shot 25 free throws, the same amount as the entire Dallas team. Dirk did not have anything close to this and neither did any other superstar for that matter because as I mentioned, Wade set the record.

amos1er
09-24-2012, 07:11 AM
So all I have is some lame youtube video's eh. You still have failed to respond to these. http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm
http://www.ericfolkerth.com/whenefta...rchive-19.html
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...rigged/page/12

BTW, You have managed to throw out quite the red herring by bringing up some meaningless Dirk stats in order to distract from the original point I was making which was that Kobe and Jordan never received the same assistance that Wade and Lebron did from the refs.

Can you actually find me a finals series where Kobe or Jordan received similar preferential treatment to what Wade got from the refs in the 2006 finals? I'll spite you to find me even one playoff series for that matter.

SteBO
09-24-2012, 07:34 AM
Yeah let's nitpick and downplay Wade's Jordan-esque Finals performance.....This guy will never get any credit for it, but I shouldn't be shocked. Definitely not surprised by where the denial is coming from either......

amos1er
09-24-2012, 07:44 AM
Yeah let's nitpick and downplay Wade's Jordan-esque Finals performance.....This guy will never get any credit for it, but I shouldn't be shocked. Definitely not surprised by where the denial is coming from either......

I'm was just responding to the accusations that Wade and Lebron have gotten equal treatment to Kobe and Jordan from the refs over the years. Clearly they don't. Thats all I'm saying.

BTW, you say that Wade's finals performance in 2006 was "jordan-esque"...I don't remember Jordan ever getting 97 free throws (an NBA finals record for six games and just 2 shy off the record for a seven games series) in any of his six finals appearances. For that matter, Jordan did not even come close to 97 free throws in six games.

I also don't remember Jordan getting the same amount of free throws as an entire opposing team in the finals the way Wade did in game 5 of the 06 finals. Likewise, Jordan did not ever receive a last second phantom foul call that decided the outcome of a pivotal finals game the way that Wade did in game five of the 06 finals.

If anything, Dirk's finals performance in 2011 was much more "Jordan-esque" than Wade's was in 2006.

b@llhog24
09-24-2012, 08:44 AM
This way to much time on your hands lol but good info

He never posts anything new he just has all those files saved on Microsoft Word to copy and paste whenever he feels like it.


I love how you pick and choose which arguments you will respond to. I have clearly provided much more evidence than the rantings of some random Mavs fan. Whether you choose to respond to those is up to you.

You do it all the time. :o

amos1er
09-24-2012, 08:48 AM
You do it all the time. :o

Can you actually prove this?

Or is this just yet another empty blanket statement that you will most likely not elaborate to with anything substantial.

IndyRealist
09-24-2012, 09:13 AM
WoW talks about the short supply of tall people, in that if you have two equal prospects, one 6'6" and one 7'0", you take the tall guy because it's easier to find SF/SG sized people than C sized. There are just less of them, let alone with basketball skills.

But they also talk about the value of good PG's, because it's such a high skill position it's hard to skate by on just athleticism.

So good centers are rare, and good point guards are rare.

b@llhog24
09-24-2012, 09:15 AM
Can you actually prove this?

Or is this just yet another empty blanket statement that you will most likely not elaborate to with anything substantial.

You're honestly not worth it.

amos1er
09-24-2012, 05:58 PM
You're honestly not worth it.

Typical Kobe hater. When asked to actually give proof for their outlandish accusations, they always find a way to backpedal. :rolleyes:

b@llhog24
09-24-2012, 06:33 PM
You're honestly not worth it.

Typical Kobe hater. When asked to actually give proof for their outlandish accusations, they always find a way to backpedal. :rolleyes:

:yawn:

amos1er
09-24-2012, 07:28 PM
:yawn:

Exactly. :clap:

Andrew32
09-24-2012, 08:34 PM
Records are meant to be broken Amos1.

Before Wade set the FT record some other player did and another player before him.

You act like Wade getting to the line that much and getting points while putting the other team in foul trouble is somehow a bad thing... :facepalm:
His brave aggressiveness and ability to draw fouls was a big reason why they won after being down and out.

You haven't proved Wade got any benefit from the ref's.
You showed a video which shows a whopping 2 fouls (one which was clearly an actual foul) and that Game 5 review by 82games in which they state there were only 2-4 possible bad calls in the entire game and that they don't think there is real evidence of any sort of rigging or ref manipulation.

Wade's 2006 Finals performance was legendary and one of the best of all time.
You may not like how he scored but points are points.

It's like saying some of Shaq's great scoring performances don't count because he got many dunks. :facepalm:

You also can't say he relied on FT's since he scored just as much as Kobe on FG's.

amos1er
09-25-2012, 04:02 PM
Records are meant to be broken Amos1.

Before Wade set the FT record some other player did and another player before him.

You act like Wade getting to the line that much and getting points while putting the other team in foul trouble is somehow a bad thing... :facepalm:
His brave aggressiveness and ability to draw fouls was a big reason why they won after being down and out.

You haven't proved Wade got any benefit from the ref's.
You showed a video which shows a whopping 2 fouls (one which was clearly an actual foul) and that Game 5 review by 82games in which they state there were only 2-4 possible bad calls in the entire game and that they don't think there is real evidence of any sort of rigging or ref manipulation.

Wade's 2006 Finals performance was legendary and one of the best of all time.
You may not like how he scored but points are points.

It's like saying some of Shaq's great scoring performances don't count because he got many dunks. :facepalm:

You also can't say he relied on FT's since he scored just as much as Kobe on FG's.

Good job, you obviously did not read any of my posts. If you want to live in a fools paradise and think that Wade didn't get any extra help from the refs in the 2006 finals than cool beans bro.

naps
09-25-2012, 04:24 PM
Ofcourse, it's easy to decide when you see it in retrospect JB. But when you are hypothetically comparing two players from different generations in a same draft you obviously don't what they are going to do. So regardless of size I take the best talent available. But if both are similar talents I take the BIG because this has been a bigmen's league for the most part. 90%+ players in the top 10 all-time are BIGs for a reason.