PDA

View Full Version : Scottie Pippen and being an all-time great



Jeffy25
08-18-2012, 04:17 PM
First of all, I am a very casual NBA fan, and more so a fan of the game when I was growing up (pippen, jordan, bird, magic).


Pippen had Jordan, and his career statistics seemed to be a lot better when Jordan was around.

Is Pippen placed into the elite world because of his ability to play around Jordan? Would he be there if he had to play solo somewhere? How great was Pippen really?

Is he fortunate to have played with Jordan and that has elevated his status as an all-time great?

so two questions
1) Where does he rank in the 1-100 top players of all time?

And

2) How do you think he would have done had he never played along side with a fellow Hall of Famer?

RLundi
08-18-2012, 04:27 PM
Look who defected from the MLB Forum :D

Pippen's numbers with MJ and without are very similar. In fact, his best statistical year was when MJ retired, in that he had his highest PER. So I think the notion that MJ made him who he was is false.

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 04:32 PM
Look who defected from the MLB Forum :D

Pippen's numbers with MJ and without are very similar. In fact, his best statistical year was when MJ retired, in that he had his highest PER. So I think the notion that MJ made him who he was is false.

I agree.
He proved in 94 that he was just not a product of MJ.

Pippen is an underrated player.

Not the greatest individual scorer of All-Time but a very solid one.
A fantastic passer / team player and a GOAT level defender who had the energy to play hard on both ends of the floor consistently.

92 Pippen > 02 Kobe.

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 04:37 PM
I agree.
He proved in 94 that he was just not a product of MJ.

Pippen is an underrated player.

Not the greatest individual scorer of All-Time but a very solid one.
A fantastic passer / team player and a GOAT level defender who had the energy to play hard on both ends of the floor consistently.

92 Pippen > 02 Kobe.

By then he was already good. The question that arises is how good would he have been had he not learned from Jordan?

We have the answers here.

Most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.

Here are a few:


Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-033012.html



Sam: I remember Jordan helping Pippen with this. In Pippen’s first several seasons, he rarely got calls on drives. Jordan used to show him — we were permitted to watch practice then — how to drive into contact and then react to the contact. Pippen used to practice it all the time with Jordan showing him.


----------------------------------------------------------

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”




http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html


Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.


http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html



Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.




http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558



CHICAGO -- The Detroit Pistons may have toughened up the Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but Jerry Krause wouldn't give the Bad Boys any undue credit for contributing to Scottie Pippen's basketball manhood or his Hall of Fame career.

"No, Michael [Jordan] made him a man," said the Bulls' former general manager, now a scout for the White Sox. "The Pistons didn't have anything to do with that. Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And then when Phil [Jackson] brought the triangle [offense] in, it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."





"And he had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death," Krause said. "The practices were great because you could see him at the end of the year start to grow and start to fight Michael . . ."

Dankster
08-18-2012, 04:39 PM
I agree.
He proved in 94 that he was just not a product of MJ.

Pippen is an underrated player.

Not the greatest individual scorer of All-Time but a very solid one.
A fantastic passer / team player and a GOAT level defender who had the energy to play hard on both ends of the floor consistently.

92 Pippen > 02 Kobe.

Sorry, that's crazy talk my man. I saw Pippen's entire career (since late 80's) and yes he was very fortunate to play with the greatest player ever. He wouldn't have won any titles on that Chicago team had Jordan not been their, I don't even think he would've made an ECF appearance to be honest. You could've placed MJ on probably any of 20 different teams back from 1990-1998 and he would've brought whatever franchise 6 titles still.

It pains me to this day knowing how this guy rode the shadow of MJ to the point of somehow being selected as one of the greatest 50 players of all time. That is absolutely the most absurd thing to even think of- that title was given to 50 players-retired and active- in the league during 1996. Scottie was just in the league at that point for about 8-9 years so to put him in that nomenclature was absolutely one of the more baffling selections to put it nicely.

How he was put in the NBA's greatest 50 and Dominique Wilkins- who clearly was a superior player to Scottie- was left off that list, I'll never understand. he was just fortunate enough to play with Michael, otherwise he would've been a career 20 ppg, 6 apg, 6 rebound per game type of guy with probably around 3-4 all star appearances and ZERO rings. Definitely not a top 50 great.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-18-2012, 04:40 PM
I agree.
He proved in 94 that he was just not a product of MJ.

Pippen is an underrated player.

Not the greatest individual scorer of All-Time but a very solid one.
A fantastic passer / team player and a GOAT level defender who had the energy to play hard on both ends of the floor consistently.

92 Pippen > 02 Kobe.

LLULLZ how did Kobe come into all of this? :laugh2:

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-18-2012, 04:41 PM
Sorry, that's crazy talk my man. I saw Pippen's entire career (since late 80's) and yes he was very fortunate to play with the greatest player ever. he would not have won any titles on that Chicago team had Jordan not been their, I don't even think he would've made an ECF appearance to be honest.

It pains me to this day knowing how this guy rode the coatails of MJ to the point of somehow being selected as one of the greatest 50 players of all time. That is absolutely the most absurd thing to even think of- that title was given to 50 players-retired and active- in the league during 1996. Scottie was just in the league at that point for about 8-9 years so to put him in that nomenclature was absolutely one of the more ridiculous selections.

How he was put in the NBA's greatest 50 and Dominique Wilkins- who clearly was a superior player to Scottie- was left off that list, I'll never understand. he was just fortunate enough to play with Michael, otherwise he would've been a career 20 ppg, 7 apg, 6 rebound per game type of guy with probably around 3-4 all star appearances and ZERO rings. Definitely not a top 50 great.

Shaq was part of that 50 greatest after just 4 seasons into the league.

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 04:42 PM
Good points JB.
I don't nessasarily disagree with you.

Jordan was special and I am quite sure he helped Pippen develop.

I just don't want to say Pippen would not have become a great player without Jordan.
It is possible he becomes the same player and it is possible he never becomes as good.
Its impossible to say really

My personal opinion is that Jordan did help him significantly but Pippen was also a very talented player athletically and skillwise so he would have become a good player even without him... maybe not as good but who knows.

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 04:46 PM
Sorry, that's crazy talk my man. I saw Pippen's entire career (since late 80's) and yes he was very fortunate to play with the greatest player ever. He wouldn't have won any titles on that Chicago team had Jordan not been their, I don't even think he would've made an ECF appearance to be honest. You could've placed MJ on probably any of 20 different teams back from 1990-1998 and he would've brought whatever franchise 6 titles still.

It pains me to this day knowing how this guy rode the shadow of MJ to the point of somehow being selected as one of the greatest 50 players of all time. That is absolutely the most absurd thing to even think of- that title was given to 50 players-retired and active- in the league during 1996. Scottie was just in the league at that point for about 8-9 years so to put him in that nomenclature was absolutely one of the more baffling selections to put it nicely.

How he was put in the NBA's greatest 50 and Dominique Wilkins- who clearly was a superior player to Scottie- was left off that list, I'll never understand. he was just fortunate enough to play with Michael, otherwise he would've been a career 20 ppg, 6 apg, 6 rebound per game type of guy with probably around 3-4 all star appearances and ZERO rings. Definitely not a top 50 great.

I was hooked on the Bulls in the 90's and watched them plenty bro.

I completely disagree with what you are saying.

I consider Jordan the GOAT but Pippen was one of the best #2's ever.
I am not comparing Pippen to Jordan (the gap was huge) but I don't think any of those 90's Bulls teams would have won the title without him on the roster and I don't think he would have been easily replaceable either.

A solid 20ppg scorer (who could score much more and even take over offensively at times) with amazing
passing / team skills and GOAT level defense at his position is not just some average player.

Pippen was great... All-Time great but Jordan is the GOAT.
I have no issues with Pippen being in the Top 50 All-Time and agree with his selection based on his entire career anyway.

Sactown
08-18-2012, 04:54 PM
JB, and we're suppose to believe only Pippen benefited from these practices together ;) Where would Jordan end up if not for Pippen?

JasonJohnHorn
08-18-2012, 07:24 PM
The first season that Jordan retired Pippen went nuts and the league and showed them what he was made of, taking the Jordan-less bulls to withing a baster of the NBA finals. As for his development, Pippen always credited Phil Jackson with helping him improve his game, so I think Pippen's productivety was more the result of his own hard work and Jackson's mentoring. It was hard to let Jordan give the ball up, but Pippen proved that he was capable and so Jordan shared ball handling duties with Pippen, which made the team harder to defend.

How does he rank all time? Certainly top fifts, likely top 30 or top 25. Among SFs, I can't think of five who were better than him off the the top of my head.

I think the reason he ranks so high is because of his skill and not his stats. His stats took a hit because Jordan was the focal point of the offence. If Pippen was the franchise player I could see him socring 25+ a game no problem.

So I think Pippen would have been just as good as he ended up being with the right coaching. He had the work ethic. He was like other young SFs, Artest/MWP and Granger, who took a few years to develop into an all-star, unlike a guy like Jordan who just started playing at a HOF level his first season.

Cal827
08-18-2012, 07:31 PM
LOL, why can't people ever accept that they were interdependent of each other's success. Without Pippen, Jordan's Bulls would have been the Cleveland Cavaliers in the late 2000s. and obviously, Pippen needed Jordan.

Both players are top 50 guys easy (With Jordan of course being in the top 3). Hell, Pippen is top 30 IMO. Pippen proved that in 93-94. Swap Jordan for Pippen on that team and they still likely lose.

smith&wesson
08-18-2012, 07:45 PM
i dont buy this pippen wouldnt be great if it wasnt for mj stuff. .

i understand that mj did infact help him out alot and taught him alot. the guy had the deterimination to work hard and get better whos to say pippen wouldnt have gotten there on his own or with the help of some other elite player ?

anways pippen is a top 50 player of all time. no clue where he would be in that 50 tbh. id guess top 25-30

Munkeysuit
08-18-2012, 07:54 PM
Pippen didn't know how to win, neither did Jordan. You can say they both learned together, both playing off of each other, if you can ask the question "can Pippen win without Jordan" than you can ask the same for Jordan winning without Pippen.
Obviously they needed Grant and Cartwright and Kerr and Paxson and Hodges and King and Scott Will and even BJ and the Worm, but those names will never come up because of how great both Pippen & Jordan were.
Pippen alone? I can say maybe top 40 players ever (he did make top 50) you need to understand that his game developed around Jordans, and never had enough time to develop anything outside of it when Jordan left and Pip went with the Rockets and Blazers and others...the athleticism was there no question, the dude was very talented as well, I think most people will look at what he brought to the table offensively that will kind of determine his overall ranking as a player though.

Rain City
08-18-2012, 08:04 PM
i think scottie pippen is an all time great complementary player, in the class of james worthy, mchale, and joe dumars...

Jeffy25
08-18-2012, 09:43 PM
That's great about Pippen and Jordan working out like that, I never knew that.

I also had not paid attention to what Pippen did in Jordan's baseball retirement age, he was quite good then too.

In the dynamic of basketball though, when you have a star of Jordan's caliber, isn't it harder for another star to shine?

Genuinely asking

Jeffy25
08-18-2012, 09:44 PM
Pippen didn't know how to win, neither did Jordan. You can say they both learned together, both playing off of each other, if you can ask the question "can Pippen win without Jordan" than you can ask the same for Jordan winning without Pippen.
Obviously they needed Grant and Cartwright and Kerr and Paxson and Hodges and King and Scott Will and even BJ and the Worm, but those names will never come up because of how great both Pippen & Jordan were.
Pippen alone? I can say maybe top 40 players ever (he did make top 50) you need to understand that his game developed around Jordans, and never had enough time to develop anything outside of it when Jordan left and Pip went with the Rockets and Blazers and others...the athleticism was there no question, the dude was very talented as well, I think most people will look at what he brought to the table offensively that will kind of determine his overall ranking as a player though.

sounds like Stockton and Malone, learning together how to run together.

SteBO
08-18-2012, 09:47 PM
That's great about Pippen and Jordan working out like that, I never knew that.

I also had not paid attention to what Pippen did in Jordan's baseball retirement age, he was quite good then too.

In the dynamic of basketball though, when you have a star of Jordan's caliber, isn't it harder for another star to shine?

Genuinely asking
Not if you know how to adjust & play in cohesion with each other. That takes time though, and it takes sacrifice and patience to accomplish that.