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USMCLaker
08-18-2012, 12:34 PM
Michael Jordan Not Among Top Five NBA Players of All Time, According to John Salley (Video) by Ricky Doyle on Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:37PM Comments (34) inShare 2 If Michael Jordan isn't No. 1 on your list of the best NBA players of all time, chances are he holds a spot somewhere between No. 2 and No. 5. Not so for John Salley. Salley, a man who won four NBA championships in his NBA career and who I once saw on a flight from L.A. to Boston (remind me to tell you the story some day), broke down his list of the greats while speaking with Colin Cowherd on ESPN Radio. Salley's No. 1 is Magic Johnson. Now, that's an interesting pick for top honors, although not completely irrational. Magic clearly made everyone around him better and had an illustrious career with the Lakers, so putting him above MJ isn't crazily outlandish. However, what probably does seem a bit off to NBA fans is that Salley continued to go through his list without naming Jordan a top-five player. Salley said he loves Jordan and that he wasn't knocking him by any means, but that based on how the game was played and who was most difficult to play against, MJ simply didn't make the cut. Check out Salley's logic in the video below.

Read more at: http://www.nesn.com/2012/08/michael-jordan-not-among-top-five-nba-players-of-all-time-according-to-john-salley-video.html


http://network.yardbarker.com/all_sports/article_external/michael_jordan_not_among_top_five_nba_players_of_a ll_time_according_to_john_salley_video/11472769

Cal827
08-18-2012, 12:36 PM
For people who want his list:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Hakeem Olajouon
5. Kevin Mchale

:facepalm:

It seems like he also uses the lack of ref responses (no hand check fouls back then) compared to now, when talking about Lebron... Wouldn't be shocked if by the end of the day, Lebron is ahead of MJ on his list too.

I guess he's still bitter from the past..

SteBO
08-18-2012, 12:38 PM
I somewhat understand where he's coming from, but people can't help but think that there's maybe an agenda here. Chicago-Detroit was a bitter, bitter rivalry. I'm honestly not that shocked to hear these words from him. I disagree, but it is what it is.

StarvingKnick22
08-18-2012, 12:42 PM
http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/damn-*****-chill.jpeg

ThunderousDemon
08-18-2012, 12:45 PM
:yawn:

Gritz
08-18-2012, 12:48 PM
He's a joke, whenever he's on tv he uses biases as his reasoning and he doesn't even deny it, usually its just jokes

Jetsguy
08-18-2012, 12:51 PM
I wonder where john salley ranks on Jordan all time list.

tredigs
08-18-2012, 12:52 PM
Sally talks about how he "played with both Michael and Isiah" and that Thomas was better. He played 17 games with older Mike (as a 10th man/scrub that likely got blasted by Mike once or twice) and spent over 250 games with prime Isiah. Allegiance issues per chance?

Don't trust the opinions of someone on the Bad Boy Pistons as it pertains to Michael Jordan. Some of his points were fine, but there's just too much history/hatred there to take it without monster grains of salt.

MintBerryCrunch
08-18-2012, 12:54 PM
Prepare for A ******* storm, this man just dissed every PSD members idol.

tredigs
08-18-2012, 12:56 PM
Fwiw, Jordan averaged 32/6/6 2.4 stls 0.9 blk against teams Salley was on (38 games: Most of them the Bad Boy Pistons of Rodman/Laimbeer/Isiah/Dumars, etc). That team had the best luck of anyone against Jordan so it's not as if his comments hold no weight, but they generally won despite Jordan's dominance, not because they were able to control it.

I just wish this came from a non Pistons member.

Citanoxeno
08-18-2012, 12:57 PM
I guess you guys don't remember the Pistons era? I think if you asked anybody on that team, i don't think Jordan would even be in their top 10 players.

jp611
08-18-2012, 12:57 PM
And John Salley is a nobody

ztilzer31
08-18-2012, 01:07 PM
Loved the bottom video. Jordan was losing that one on one battle. That's crazy in retrospect, but he definitely got out played in this game.

Max Power
08-18-2012, 01:10 PM
Gotta give Chuck Daley his props. Winning while woking with nutjobs like Rodman and Isiah and this ****** could not have been easy.

fadedmario
08-18-2012, 01:15 PM
For people who want his list:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Hakeem Olajouon
5. Kevin Mchale

:facepalm:

It seems like he also uses the lack of ref responses (no hand check fouls back then) compared to now, when talking about Lebron... Wouldn't be shocked if by the end of the day, Lebron is ahead of MJ on his list too.

I guess he's still bitter from the past..

Bitter from what? Dude has 4 titles. Two of those coming from beating the Bulls in the ECF?

smith&wesson
08-18-2012, 01:16 PM
so mj is not in your top 5 but kevin mchale is ?

Hellcrooner
08-18-2012, 01:19 PM
For people who want his list:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Hakeem Olajouon
5. Kevin Mchale

:facepalm:

It seems like he also uses the lack of ref responses (no hand check fouls back then) compared to now, when talking about Lebron... Wouldn't be shocked if by the end of the day, Lebron is ahead of MJ on his list too.

I guess he's still bitter from the past..

Bitter for what?
From beatting the crap out of the bulls year in and year out until their roster was Too old , worn out and injured that they couldnt do it anymoer?

Doubt so.

tredigs
08-18-2012, 01:26 PM
Bitter for what?
From beatting the crap out of the bulls year in and year out until their roster was Too old , worn out and injured that they couldnt do it anymoer?

Doubt so.

Bears mentioning that the Bulls were a young/incomplete team in the 80's, and did not have a certain Phil Jackson to help the finishing touch on the team (Piston's with any other coach than Chuck Daly would have been a ****-storm).

Jint.
08-18-2012, 01:26 PM
the Spider has spoken :facepalm:

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 01:27 PM
He fits in well with most of the current public media.

Being knowledgeable and supporting your opinions with solid facts / arguments is not something you need to work in sports media / espn / whatever.

StarvingKnick22
08-18-2012, 01:28 PM
obviously a celtic homer

Stuckey#3
08-18-2012, 01:29 PM
I'm not saying I agree with him... but he both beat Jordan and won with him. I'm pretty sure he knows a little more about him than yall. And no one could touch the Bad Boy Pistons; Daly was a great coach but that team was amazing. They... not Jordan are what made me a basketball fan.

MrfadeawayJB
08-18-2012, 01:30 PM
Haha what a joke

Max Power
08-18-2012, 01:32 PM
Bitter for what?


Being swept, not just off the floor, but into obscurity, once the young Bulls figured it out and lapped the Bad Boys legacy, three times, perhaps.

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 01:37 PM
I'm not saying I agree with him... but he both beat Jordan and won with him. I'm pretty sure he knows a little more about him than yall. And no one could touch the Bad Boy Pistons; Daly was a great coach but that team was amazing. They... not Jordan are what made me a basketball fan.

So if he played against Jordan that gives him more insight then someone who watched him his whole career?

Why do players have more insight then fans... I mean why?
They play the game they don't have the time or ability to watch and compare multiple players across different teams like fans do.

I mean I can't experience what its like to get crossed over and dunked on by MJ but I can see it for myself.

Rndy
08-18-2012, 01:40 PM
Even on Best dam Sports show he always hated on Jordan. Not a big deal just someones opinion.

BSardogan
08-18-2012, 01:40 PM
so mj is not in your top 5 but kevin mchale is ?

Great analysis. :clap: Hope it didn't take you too long to write it.

BobbyHillSwag
08-18-2012, 01:58 PM
I somewhat understand where he's coming from, but people can't help but think that there's maybe an agenda here. Chicago-Detroit was a bitter, bitter rivalry. I'm honestly not that shocked to hear these words from him. I disagree, but it is what it is.

You're joking right? you clearly havent ever watched his talk shows with kobe. He use to always say kobe was better and that he hated Michael Jordan. He took shots at him every chance he got. Dude is literally hates MJ's guts. He's so biased, his opinion on anything to do with MJ should not even be listened to. Seriously, he just hates the guy

BobbyHillSwag
08-18-2012, 02:00 PM
Nvm Im pretty sure none of yall ever seen John Salley's talk show. He always take shots at jordan, dude just hates him lmao. He's past bitter, jordan must of did something to him when he was on the bulls.

LAKERMANIA
08-18-2012, 02:06 PM
:pity: What an idiot..

theheatles
08-18-2012, 02:07 PM
Salley had Isaiah Thomas over MJ too. As much as I loved the degradation of MJ, Salley is just trying to be a unique voice in the media, because he has been appearing everywhere that'll have him with this talk

NY007
08-18-2012, 02:25 PM
This has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen, this should just go to show all of you what blind bias does to peoples opnions..

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 02:26 PM
Notice the difference here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0nYOZ7jhmE

LongWayFromHome
08-18-2012, 03:46 PM
So he basically just wanted to name who he thought was the top 5 players from the 80's? which jordan should probably make that list as well.

Raph12
08-18-2012, 03:54 PM
Wow at Bird, Hakeem and McHale... You can make a case for Kareem and another weak one for Magic, but this was just a stupid columnist using his bias to blind him.

Losoway
08-18-2012, 03:56 PM
he actually made really good points

how can you call someone the best ever when you spent most of your career being used to beating them ??

BobbyHillSwag
08-18-2012, 05:40 PM
he actually made really good points

how can you call someone the best ever when you spent most of your career being used to beating them ??

:facepalm:

because he's a biased tool that just hates on MJ. He wasnt even a key part of those piston teams. He's a hater plain and simple. On his show, every chance he got to take at Mj he took it. Just petty **** like talking about how cheap the *****'s cologne is. Dude is sad, how much hate he has for jordan. His opinion shouldnt be taken seriously with any discussion to do with history that includes with ranking players or just jordan. It will just be skewed cause of his hate for jordan.

Jarvo
08-18-2012, 05:48 PM
So he doesn't have Jordan in his top 5 and half of you *****ing about it lol

BobbyHillSwag
08-18-2012, 05:50 PM
hey if i said melo>lebron most would ***** about it too. Same rule applies here.

ne3xchamps
08-18-2012, 06:01 PM
Who gives a **** about what john salley thinks? He's an idiot. He has never been relevant and his opinion is about as meaningless as mosquitoes.

D Roses Bulls
08-18-2012, 06:02 PM
Who's the only person in the NBA to have their number retired by a team he didn't even play for? oh yeah.... Michael Jordan. I know no ones even going to question who the best player in the history of the league is and if you do, your an idiot.

xxplayerxx23
08-18-2012, 06:03 PM
Guys an *******. When they lost to the bulls he woulnd't even be a good sport. He doesn't even have wilt in his top five either.

Utd7
08-18-2012, 06:14 PM
No Wilt in any top 5 is horse****

RaiderLakersA's
08-18-2012, 06:17 PM
I've said it once, i'll say it again.

This great lovefest that most of the current generation has for Jordan was not the case amongst his peers. They resented his 1 vs. 5 basketball hogging and took considerable pleasure in beating him every chance they could. It had nothing to do with winning, which truth be told, Jordan did very little of early in his career. Jordan's game was completely antithetical to the way basketball was coached and played. He was good, but there he was detached, arrogant/smug, abrasive and others resented the way he went about his business on and off the court.

Sally's list is not a surprise to me. If you polled people of Jordan's generation, you'd probably find many more opines echoing Sally's. Not only do they not believe Jordan to be the GOAT, but they likely don't have room for him in their top 5.

NoahH
08-18-2012, 06:32 PM
Kevin Mchale!? WTF

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 06:32 PM
I've said it once, i'll say it again.

This great lovefest that most of the current generation has for Jordan was not the case amongst his peers. They resented his 1 vs. 5 basketball hogging and took considerable pleasure in beating him every chance they could. It had nothing to do with winning, which truth be told, Jordan did very little of early in his career. Jordan's game was completely antithetical to the way basketball was coached and played. He was good, but there he was detached, arrogant/smug, abrasive and others resented the way he went about his business on and off the court.

Sally's list is not a surprise to me. If you polled people of Jordan's generation, you'd probably find many more opines echoing Sally's. Not only do they not believe Jordan to be the GOAT, but they likely don't have room for him in their top 5.

The difference is Jordan went to the absolute worst franchise of any top 10 player all time while guys like Magic and Bird went straight to winning organizations and/or playing with the best player in the league. Who the hell can't win a title playing with the best player in the NBA?


http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-05/sports/sp-83_1_lakers


Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

"I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life."

Johnson signed with the Lakers after his sophomore year of college and proceeded to win five championships. The Bulls picked second, took UCLA's David Greenwood and have won no championships.

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers.

BobbyHillSwag
08-18-2012, 06:34 PM
I've said it once, i'll say it again.

This great lovefest that most of the current generation has for Jordan was not the case amongst his peers. They resented his 1 vs. 5 basketball hogging and took considerable pleasure in beating him every chance they could. It had nothing to do with winning, which truth be told, Jordan did very little of early in his career. Jordan's game was completely antithetical to the way basketball was coached and played. He was good, but there he was detached, arrogant/smug, abrasive and others resented the way he went about his business on and off the court.

Sally's list is not a surprise to me. If you polled people of Jordan's generation, you'd probably find many more opines echoing Sally's. Not only do they not believe Jordan to be the GOAT, but they likely don't have room for him in their top 5.

to be honest, they would be the most likely to be jealous of him. The people of jordan's generation. You must didn't account Jealousy, something that happens with anyone on any level. You really think a player like Melo thinks Lebron is better than him? I doubt it. A player like Iverson only thought two people were ever better than him and that was duncan and shaq. That's because they were so dominate as bigs. It's a mixture of people hating and everyone thinking they are the best. I respect that but dont blatantly lie and put ****** that aint even on jordans level.

JasonJohnHorn
08-18-2012, 06:35 PM
Russell won all the titles
Wilt set all the records
Kareem broke all the records
and all three of those players said The Big O was the baddest player they played against.

As for Salley's take, I think it is clear that he had a center bias because that is the position he played, so he knew centers better than anybody on the floor. So I can understand how he would take Hakeem over Jordan. I'm not so sure about the Kevin McHale bit, he didn't really get into it. He just mentioned McHale's named and moved on.

As for Thomas being the best player he played with, Salley has an argument. Salley played with Jordan and with Thomas. The one thing that makes Thomas and Magic and Bird better than Jordan is that they made the players around them better. They were facilitators. Jordan was more the guy that would just take the load onto his own shoulders and let his teammates watch him. I feel the same way about LBJ. There is no doubt that Jordan and LBJ are play makers, nor that they make their TEAMS better, but they do not make the players around them better.

Here's a list of the players I would rather build around than Jordan (in no particular order):
Hakeem
Robinson
Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
Karl Malone
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Magic
Oscar
Shaq

BobbyHillSwag
08-18-2012, 06:39 PM
Russell won all the titles
Wilt set all the records
Kareem broke all the records
and all three of those players said The Big O was the baddest player they played against.

As for Salley's take, I think it is clear that he had a center bias because that is the position he played, so he knew centers better than anybody on the floor. So I can understand how he would take Hakeem over Jordan. I'm not so sure about the Kevin McHale bit, he didn't really get into it. He just mentioned McHale's named and moved on.

As for Thomas being the best player he played with, Salley has an argument. Salley played with Jordan and with Thomas. The one thing that makes Thomas and Magic and Bird better than Jordan is that they made the players around them better. They were facilitators. Jordan was more the guy that would just take the load onto his own shoulders and let his teammates watch him. I feel the same way about LBJ. There is no doubt that Jordan and LBJ are play makers, nor that they make their TEAMS better, but they do not make the players around them better.

Here's a list of the players I would rather build around than Jordan (in no particular order):
Hakeem
Robinson
Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
Karl Malone
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Magic
Oscar
Shaq

Lol while jordan cant make players better Id still take him over any player on that list besides wilt and shaq. The others arent even close really. He was still better than most despite not making players better because of his own unique offensive game. Dude was just on another level offensively from everyone else besides shaq and wilt

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-18-2012, 06:40 PM
What's funny is that Salley got the 3rd of his 4 rings because of Michael (95-96).

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 06:41 PM
Russell won all the titles
Wilt set all the records
Kareem broke all the records
and all three of those players said The Big O was the baddest player they played against.

As for Salley's take, I think it is clear that he had a center bias because that is the position he played, so he knew centers better than anybody on the floor. So I can understand how he would take Hakeem over Jordan. I'm not so sure about the Kevin McHale bit, he didn't really get into it. He just mentioned McHale's named and moved on.

As for Thomas being the best player he played with, Salley has an argument. Salley played with Jordan and with Thomas. The one thing that makes Thomas and Magic and Bird better than Jordan is that they made the players around them better. They were facilitators. Jordan was more the guy that would just take the load onto his own shoulders and let his teammates watch him. I feel the same way about LBJ. There is no doubt that Jordan and LBJ are play makers, nor that they make their TEAMS better, but they do not make the players around them better.

Here's a list of the players I would rather build around than Jordan (in no particular order):
Hakeem
Robinson
Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
Karl Malone
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Magic
Oscar
Shaq
:facepalm:

All of these guys played with more stars and hall of famers than Jordan and some of them didn't win a damn thing.

So I'm supposed to build my team around a guy who underperforms when in the playoffs even when on teams that are good enough to win it all and who has another top 10 player all time?

Wow that is interesting logic there.

You can do whatever you want, but I'm taking the guy who performs better when it matters most and who has gotten it done more often.
Do you realize how disappointing it is to a fan and owner to see a guy who is good to build around, but just can't get it done in the playoffs because he performs worse when it matters most?

Truly great players win with the franchise they were drafted by.

There is a reason why Jordan has the highest career PER average and the highest Win Shares career in the playoffs and the highest WS/PER 48 minutes in both the season and playoffs. He was statistically dominant and damn good. You say Jordan would be like Oscar or West in the 60's, which is totally off base, Jordan has more than double the 50+, 40+ games than any other player has in playoff history. Just imagine him playing in the 60's when the pace was even faster.


vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Jordan: 14-0 (100%)/ 10-0 (100%)
Jabbar: 11-3 (79%)/ 23-2 (92%)
Russell: 10-0 (100%)/ 12-1 (92%)
Wilt: 4-3 (57%)/ 9-2 (82%)
Magic: 9-2 (82%)/ 20-1 (95%)
Bird: 10-6 (63%)/ 14-1 (93%)
Olajuwon: 4-0 (100%)/ 5-2 (71%)
Shaq: 11-2 (85%)/ 12-2 (86%)
Duncan: 13-4 (76%)/ 8-0 (100%)



People need to understand what it means when it says take the big over the small. You take the big over the small if they are more proven, but when the small if much more proven you take them. Just because Dwight is a big doesn't mean I'm taking him over Magic Johnson who is a proven winner and shown he can get it done as the man.
Just because Patrick Ewing is a big doesn't mean I'm taking him over Isiah Thomas.

Russell won with the Celtics (had the 2nd best record prior to Russell coming and had league mvp in Cousy in Russell's Rookie year and the ROY in Heinsohn)
Hakeem won after 10 years but came into a decent situation that had the #1 pick the prior year and a franchise that had been in the finals 3 years earlier.
The rest of the guys is just insane. Wilt had to be traded to win, so why would you draft him when you know he will leave your franchise high and dry and get them no titles?
The other guys lost soo many times with HCA and the favorite that it would be insane to take them.

With your logic it's like saying you would take a job that pays 50K a year but that is 40 miles from your house vs a job that pays 75K a year that is 10 miles from your house. Makes just as much sense.

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 06:43 PM
Lol while jordan cant make players better Id still take him over any player on that list besides wilt and shaq. The others arent even close really. He was still better than most despite not making players better because of his own unique offensive game. Dude was just on another level offensively from everyone else besides shaq and wilt

What is this notion?

Most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.

Here are a few:


Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-033012.html



Sam: I remember Jordan helping Pippen with this. In Pippen’s first several seasons, he rarely got calls on drives. Jordan used to show him — we were permitted to watch practice then — how to drive into contact and then react to the contact. Pippen used to practice it all the time with Jordan showing him.


----------------------------------------------------------

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”




http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html


Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.


http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html



Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.




http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558



CHICAGO -- The Detroit Pistons may have toughened up the Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but Jerry Krause wouldn't give the Bad Boys any undue credit for contributing to Scottie Pippen's basketball manhood or his Hall of Fame career.

"No, Michael [Jordan] made him a man," said the Bulls' former general manager, now a scout for the White Sox. "The Pistons didn't have anything to do with that. Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And then when Phil [Jackson] brought the triangle [offense] in, it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."





"And he had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death," Krause said. "The practices were great because you could see him at the end of the year start to grow and start to fight Michael . . ."



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4sj1LmYgh8

From 2:10 to 2:42

On playing with Jordan - "Because i think it made me a better person and a better player"

Horace Grant


"He made us better... myself, Scottie, BJ, even Bill Cartwright who I still love, he made us better players. He gave us that confidence, but first we had to earn his trust and once we earned his trust man you know you saw championship after championship..."


[/QUOTE]


So how is it Magic or Bird made others better but Jordan didn't when Magic and Bird came straight to winning organizations that already had stars on the team?

BobbyHillSwag
08-18-2012, 06:50 PM
^i was more along just going with what he said, to make a point. With that said jordan bulls you're exactly right. Some of the players that dude posted on his list was way worse at making their teammates better. It's obvious he's biased against him looking at his list.

bucketss
08-18-2012, 06:54 PM
Wow that is interesting logic there.
.

lol

bucketss
08-18-2012, 06:56 PM
quick question, who had more help over their careers in your opinion. kobe or jordan?

knicks=love
08-18-2012, 06:59 PM
I wonder where john salley ranks on Jordan all time list.

:laugh:

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 07:02 PM
quick question, who had more help over their careers in your opinion. kobe or jordan?

How is this a debate when one guy had a guy who won league mvp and multiple finals mvp's at his peak on the team?

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 07:04 PM
Also why does John Salley say here that Jordan is the greatest even after playing against all of those players?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0nYOZ7jhmE

When you watch the video you realize that Jordan and Salley hated one another and the play that Salley is talking about Jordan dunked on him and called him a bitc*****. Its in the book for the Love of the Game.

Robbw241
08-18-2012, 07:05 PM
attention whore

BobbyHillSwag
08-18-2012, 07:08 PM
quick question, who had more help over their careers in your opinion. kobe or jordan?

I love godbe more than anyone but godbe by far. Jordan didnt have anyone in shaqs league. Pau was also a better offensive player than pippen and I would have taken him over pippen to be honest. Not saying he was a better player.

bucketss
08-18-2012, 07:09 PM
How is this a debate when one guy had a guy who won league mvp and multiple finals mvp's at his peak on the team?

all my friends said jordan by far, it's annoying.

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 07:12 PM
all my friends said jordan by far, it's annoying.

Well ask them if he played with anyone who won league or finals mvp? And then ask them who won league or finals mvp with the other guy and there is your answer. The fact one guy has more finals mvp's than one guy proves this in itself.

BobbyHillSwag
08-18-2012, 07:15 PM
all my friends said jordan by far, it's annoying.

im probably the biggest kobe homer there is but even I know he had way more help than jordan. Especially when you consider that Shaq> all of jordan's help put together.

Sadds The Gr8
08-18-2012, 07:24 PM
He's a ****in moron. Nobody should take his piece of **** list seriously.

dee279
08-18-2012, 07:26 PM
Prolly still hurting from that Poster MJ put him on.

tonyd3b54
08-18-2012, 07:32 PM
all of jordan's titles came after the great celtic's, lakers, and piston teams. jordan couldnt beat those teams so its reasonable i guess to take a couple of the best players from those teams and claim theyre better. i dont think it can be argued that jordan, magic and bird are the 3 best perimeters players ever.

Munkeysuit
08-18-2012, 07:33 PM
He's entitled to his own opinions, It doesn't surprise me at all seeing as how the Pistons and Bulls were once huge rivals. Maybe he's still holding a grudge? lol anyways top 5 IMO

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Shaquille Oneal
4. Larry Bird
5. Kobe Bryant

Sadds The Gr8
08-18-2012, 07:35 PM
all of jordan's titles came after the great celtic's, lakers, and piston teams. jordan couldnt beat those teams so its reasonable i guess to take a couple of the best players from those teams and claim theyre better. i dont think it can be argued that jordan, magic and bird are the 3 best perimeters players ever.

he was young and just came into the league when those teams were on top. Just like Lebron struggled against Detroit, SAS, and Boston when he first came into the league, and how Shaq struggled vs the Rockets when he first came.

Also how Durant's teams struggled vs the Heat, Lakers and Mavs. Every young superstar goes through that.

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 07:39 PM
all of jordan's titles came after the great celtic's, lakers, and piston teams. jordan couldnt beat those teams so its reasonable i guess to take a couple of the best players from those teams and claim theyre better. i dont think it can be argued that jordan, magic and bird are the 3 best perimeters players ever.

He beat the Pistons the year after they won their last title and had won back to back titles, in the conference finals. Dumars was a 20/5.5 player, Rodman was in the year between his two All-Star selections, was All-Defensive First Team and won his second DPOY. Dumars was an All-Star and All-NBA 3rd team. Also beat the Lakers who still had a prime Magic who just won back to back MVP's and finished 2nd in MVP voting.

In any case, it's unfair to talk about Jordan as if he didn't succeed against the best, because he did. His lack of rings in that period speaks to not having comparable talent surrounding him, nothing more. Remember, Magic and Bird both played with at least two other All-Star-caliber players their whole careers, and Magic even had an MVP playing alongside him, while Bird had basically two 20/10 players next to him, nevermind DJ and Ainge as quality backcourt players. J

effen5
08-18-2012, 07:39 PM
he was young and just came into the league when those teams were on top. Just like Lebron struggled against Detroit, SAS, and Boston when he first came into the league, and how Shaq struggled vs the Rockets when he first came.

Also how Durant's teams struggled vs the Heat, Lakers and Mavs. Every young superstar goes through that.

Not only that but have you seen Jordan's team during the 80s?

Jordan with a rookie in Pippen, a rookie in Horace Grant, a young Oakley, I mean it took them a while to play together too.

effen5
08-18-2012, 07:40 PM
John Salley btw was the Brian Scalabrine of that Bulls team.

More-Than-Most
08-18-2012, 07:44 PM
He's a ****in moron. Nobody should take his piece of **** list seriously.

:laugh2:

Sadds getting puter mad...Fantastic

tonyd3b54
08-18-2012, 07:45 PM
He beat the Pistons the year after they won their last title and had won back to back titles, in the conference finals. Dumars was a 20/5.5 player, Rodman was in the year between his two All-Star selections, was All-Defensive First Team and won his second DPOY. Dumars was an All-Star and All-NBA 3rd team. Also beat the Lakers who still had a prime Magic who just won back to back MVP's and finished 2nd in MVP voting.

In any case, it's unfair to talk about Jordan as if he didn't succeed against the best, because he did. His lack of rings in that period speaks to not having comparable talent surrounding him, nothing more. Remember, Magic and Bird both played with at least two other All-Star-caliber players their whole careers, and Magic even had an MVP playing alongside him, while Bird had basically two 20/10 players next to him, nevermind DJ and Ainge as quality backcourt players. J

they won because the teams you mention were old an no longer good and the era after that had no one in the same league as those teams or jordans which is why jordan went on to dominate. what im saying is take a prime bird, prime magic and prime jordan and put them in the same decade and you probably have 3 titles each. just to be clear jordan IS in my top 5 but i do think he is a tad overrated.

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 08:01 PM
they won because the teams you mention were old an no longer good and the era after that had no one in the same league as those teams or jordans which is why jordan went on to dominate. what im saying is take a prime bird, prime magic and prime jordan and put them in the same decade and you probably have 3 titles each. just to be clear jordan IS in my top 5 but i do think he is a tad overrated.

Not really. Pistons had just won back to back titles, they weren't old by any means.
And you forget MJ never lost a series where he was supposed to win. Magic lost 3 series with HCA all of which he should have won and Bird lost 7 series with HCA, all of which he should have won.

Explain to me how the Lakers win a title in 1980 and 1982 but lose in round 1 in 1981 to a team below .500? They win in 1985 and 1987 and lose in the WCF in 1986 to a 51 win team?
The Celtics win in 1981 and then lose in 1982 with HCA and then get swept in 1983 with HCA.
The Sixers win in 1983 and then in 1984 they lose in round 1 to a team that hadn't made it out of round 1 in 7 years.
Notice the pattern here? Each of those teams that were so called juggernauts ended up losing in between there runs to teams clearly inferior even with HCA.

Isiah shot 40% in 1988, 39% in 1989, 40% in 1990, 41% in 1991 vs the Bulls.

How old were Detroit's core players and did their performance decline? If so, was it due to age?

Here are the ages of all their core players:

Dumars: 27
Thomas: 29
Aguirre: 31
Edwards: 35
Johnson: 34
Laimbeer: 33
Rodman: 29
Salley: 26

Isn't the prime of a basketball player roughly between ages 27-30? If so, their two best players were within that range and their third leading scorer was just outside it at 31. Rodman was in his prime as well, Salley was about to enter it. Only Laimbeer, Edwards, and Johnson were truly old.

Thomas 1988: 19.5/8.4/46%
Thomas 1989: 18.2/8.3/46%
Thomas 1990: 18.4/9.4/44%
Thomas 1991: 16.2/9.3/44%

In the case of Thomas there was a decline in scoring from the championship years, although his assists were actually higher than in his first title year and his field goal percentage was the same as in 1990. However, was this due to age?

Thomas 1992: 18.5/7.2/45%

His good 1992 campaign suggests his 1991 decline was due to injuries. He made every all-star team in the 90's except for his final season. He declined further in 1993 but 1994 is when he ceased being an all-star.

Dumars 1988: 14.2/47%
Dumars 1989: 17.2/50%
Dumars 1990: 17.8/48%
Dumars 1991: 20.4/48%

Dumars was actually improving during this period, which is to be expected given his age. His best season was 1993 when he was 29 years old. Dumars made the all-star team as late as 1997 when he was 33.

Aguirre 1989: 15.5/48% (his numbers in Detroit only)
Aguirre 1990: 14.1/49%
Aguirre 1991: 14.2/46%

Aguirre showed no decline from 1990.

Laimbeer 1988: 13.5/10/49%
Laimbeer 1989: 14/10/50%
Laimbeer 1990: 12/10/48%
Laimbeer 1991: 11/9/48%

He was a player clearly in decline, albeit a steady decline.

Rodman 1988: 12/12/56%
Rodman 1989: 9/9/60%
Rodman 1990: 9/10/58%
Rodman 1991: 8/13/58%

Rodman was a player on the upswing. In 1992 he would shoot up to averaging 19 rebounds a game along with 10 points. He would lead the league in rebounding for the next seven years.

Johnson 1988: 12/44%
Johnson 1989: 14/46%
Johnson 1990: 10/43%
Johnson 1991: 12/43%

Johnson was obviously past his prime but he was actually better in 1991 than in 1990.

So Dumars, Rodman were improving players during this time. Laimbeer and Johnson were declining but Johnson in 1991 was better than in 1990. Isiah Thomas had a down year in 1991 but he rebounded in 1992.

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 08:03 PM
Also this whole thread is irrelevant because why does John Salley say here that Jordan is the greatest even after playing against all of those players?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0nYOZ7jhmE

So how could he say he is the greatest all time here after having played against all those guys he said, and now not top 5?


Edit: Also here:

At the 18:14 mark of the video John Salley calls Michael Jordan the Greatest Player of All Time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA53qTIaAKY

stawka
08-18-2012, 08:13 PM
So that was his top 5, AND he thinks Thomas was better? So at best, Jordan is seventh on the All-Time GOAT list? LOL.ok sweet

tonyd3b54
08-18-2012, 08:25 PM
yes birds and magics teams were better which is why jordan couldnt beat them. imo the teams bird and magic faced when they were in their prime were better than what jordan faced in his. the the lakers, celtics, pistons, sixers were a better top 4 teams than the bulls, rockets, jazz and who else? pacers maybe? seattle? you have multiple top 25 or 50 all time players on the older generation for example; bird, magic, mchale, dr J, moses, malone, parrish, karreem, thomas, lambier. thats just off the top of my head those 4 teams.which is why neither team had the studly winning percentage that jordan did. compare these players to when mj won. the best players in the era were himself, stockton, malone, hakeem then go down to a lesser tier miller and gary payton. as you can see the players are much better in the 80's than in the 90's.

mamba24
08-18-2012, 08:35 PM
I somewhat understand where he's coming from, but people can't help but think that there's maybe an agenda here. Chicago-Detroit was a bitter, bitter rivalry. I'm honestly not that shocked to hear these words from him. I disagree, but it is what it is.

you know salley and jordan were once teammates right? rivalry between detroit and chicago means nothing to salley

effen5
08-19-2012, 03:08 AM
you know salley and jordan were once teammates right? rivalry between detroit and chicago means nothing to salley

And you're telling me the detroit chicago rivalry means nothing to Rodman too then?

KnicksorBust
08-19-2012, 12:19 PM
Sometimes I appreciate it an off the wall opinion to get a good discussion going. However, leaving MJ off your top 5 is just sensationalism and he doesn't defend it well at all.