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JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 09:44 AM
Looks to be the most updated list of his as it is thru 2012 it shows.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/simmons_pyramid.html





Rank Player From To MP PTS TRB AST STL BLK FG% 3P% FT% WS WS/48
1 Michael Jordan 1985 2003 38.3 30.1 6.2 5.3 2.3 0.8 .497 .327 .835 214.0 .250
2 Bill Russell 1957 1969 42.3 15.1 22.5 4.3 .440 .561 163.5 .193
3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1970 1989 36.8 24.6 11.2 3.6 0.9 2.6 .559 .056 .721 273.4 .228
4 Magic Johnson 1980 1996 36.7 19.5 7.2 11.2 1.9 0.4 .520 .303 .848 155.8 .225
5 Larry Bird 1980 1992 38.4 24.3 10.0 6.3 1.7 0.8 .496 .376 .886 145.8 .203
6 Wilt Chamberlain 1960 1973 45.8 30.1 22.9 4.4 .540 .511 247.3 .248
7 Tim Duncan 1998 2012 35.4 20.3 11.3 3.1 0.7 2.2 .507 .177 .688 175.9 .214
8 Kobe Bryant 1997 2012 36.5 25.4 5.3 4.7 1.5 0.5 .453 .337 .838 162.4 .184
9 Jerry West 1961 1974 39.2 27.0 5.8 6.7 2.6 0.7 .474 .814 162.6 .213
10 Oscar Robertson 1961 1974 42.2 25.7 7.5 9.5 1.1 0.1 .485 .838 189.2 .207
11 Hakeem Olajuwon 1985 2002 35.7 21.8 11.1 2.5 1.7 3.1 .512 .202 .712 162.8 .177
12 Shaquille O'Neal 1993 2011 34.7 23.7 10.9 2.5 0.6 2.3 .582 .045 .527 181.7 .208
13 Moses Malone 1977 1995 33.9 20.6 12.2 1.4 0.8 1.3 .491 .100 .769 167.1 .178
14 John Havlicek 1963 1978 36.6 20.8 6.3 4.8 1.2 0.3 .439 .815 131.7 .136
15 Elgin Baylor 1959 1972 40.0 27.4 13.5 4.3 .431 .780 104.2 .148
16 Julius Erving 1977 1987 34.3 22.0 6.7 3.9 1.8 1.5 .507 .261 .777 106.2 .178
17 Bob Pettit 1955 1965 38.8 26.4 16.2 3.0 .436 .761 136.0 .213
18 Karl Malone 1986 2004 37.2 25.0 10.1 3.6 1.4 0.8 .516 .274 .742 234.6 .205
19 Charles Barkley 1985 2000 36.7 22.1 11.7 3.9 1.5 0.8 .541 .266 .735 177.2 .216
20 LeBron James 2004 2012 39.9 27.6 7.2 6.9 1.7 0.8 .483 .331 .746 133.3 .233
21 Bob Cousy 1951 1970 35.3 18.4 5.2 7.5 .375 .803 91.1 .139
22 Kevin Garnett 1996 2012 36.5 19.3 10.6 4.0 1.3 1.5 .499 .283 .790 181.6 .190
23 Isiah Thomas 1982 1994 36.3 19.2 3.6 9.3 1.9 0.3 .452 .290 .759 80.7 .109
24 Scottie Pippen 1988 2004 34.9 16.1 6.4 5.2 2.0 0.8 .473 .326 .704 125.1 .146
25 John Stockton 1985 2003 31.8 13.1 2.7 10.5 2.2 0.2 .515 .384 .826 207.7 .209
26 Rick Barry 1966 1980 36.3 23.2 6.5 5.1 2.0 0.5 .449 .330 .900 93.4 .156
27 Bill Walton 1975 1987 28.3 13.3 10.5 3.4 0.8 2.2 .521 .000 .660 39.3 .142
28 Dwyane Wade 2004 2012 37.2 25.2 5.1 6.2 1.8 1.0 .486 .291 .770 90.3 .196
29 David Robinson 1990 2003 34.7 21.1 10.6 2.5 1.4 3.0 .518 .250 .736 178.7 .250
30 Willis Reed 1965 1974 35.5 18.7 12.9 1.8 0.6 1.1 .476 .747 74.9 .156
31 Dave Cowens 1971 1983 38.6 17.6 13.6 3.8 1.1 0.9 .460 .071 .783 86.3 .140
32 Walt Frazier 1968 1980 37.5 18.9 5.9 6.1 1.9 0.2 .490 .000 .786 113.5 .176
33 Sam Jones 1958 1969 27.9 17.7 4.9 2.5 .456 .803 92.3 .182
34 George Gervin 1977 1986 33.5 26.2 4.6 2.8 1.2 0.8 .511 .297 .844 88.1 .159
35 Kevin McHale 1981 1993 31.0 17.9 7.3 1.7 0.4 1.7 .554 .261 .798 113.0 .180
36 Steve Nash 1997 2012 31.4 14.5 3.0 8.6 0.7 0.1 .491 .428 .904 125.3 .166
37 Allen Iverson 1997 2010 41.1 26.7 3.7 6.2 2.2 0.2 .425 .313 .780 99.0 .126
38 George Mikan 1949 1956 34.4 23.1 13.4 2.8 .404 .782 108.7 .249
39 Dirk Nowitzki 1999 2012 36.3 22.9 8.3 2.6 0.9 1.0 .475 .380 .878 168.9 .212
40 Patrick Ewing 1986 2002 34.3 21.0 9.8 1.9 1.0 2.4 .504 .152 .740 126.4 .150
41 Gary Payton 1991 2007 35.3 16.3 3.9 6.7 1.8 0.2 .466 .317 .729 145.5 .148
42 Wes Unseld 1969 1981 36.4 10.8 14.0 3.9 1.1 0.6 .509 .500 .633 110.1 .147
43 Jason Kidd 1995 2012 36.6 13.0 6.4 9.0 1.9 0.3 .401 .349 .784 133.1 .133
44 Clyde Drexler 1984 1998 34.6 20.4 6.1 5.6 2.0 0.7 .472 .318 .788 135.6 .173
45 Nate Thurmond 1964 1977 37.2 15.0 15.0 2.7 0.5 2.1 .421 .667 78.0 .104
46 Dave DeBusschere 1963 1974 35.7 16.1 11.0 2.9 0.9 0.5 .432 .699 60.8 .093
47 Paul Pierce 1999 2012 36.9 22.0 6.0 3.8 1.5 0.6 .448 .369 .807 131.2 .167
48 Hal Greer 1959 1973 35.5 19.2 5.0 4.0 .452 .801 102.7 .124
49 Billy Cunningham 1966 1976 34.3 20.8 10.1 4.0 1.2 0.5 .446 .720 63.2 .135
50 James Worthy 1983 1994 32.4 17.6 5.1 3.0 1.1 0.7 .521 .241 .769 81.2 .130
51 Elvin Hayes 1969 1984 38.4 21.0 12.5 1.8 1.0 2.0 .452 .147 .670 120.8 .116
52 Dolph Schayes 1950 1964 34.4 18.5 12.1 3.1 .380 .849 141.8 .191
53 Bill Sharman 1951 1961 32.0 17.8 3.9 3.0 .426 .883 83.4 .178
54 Dennis Johnson 1977 1990 32.7 14.1 3.9 5.0 1.3 0.6 .445 .172 .797 82.6 .110
55 Dominique Wilkins 1983 1999 35.5 24.8 6.7 2.5 1.3 0.6 .461 .319 .811 117.5 .148
56 Paul Arizin 1951 1962 38.4 22.8 8.6 2.3 .421 .810 108.8 .183
57 Tom Heinsohn 1957 1965 29.4 18.6 8.8 2.0 .405 .790 60.0 .150
58 Bernard King 1978 1993 33.7 22.5 5.8 3.3 1.0 0.3 .518 .172 .730 75.4 .123
59 Robert Parish 1977 1997 28.4 14.5 9.1 1.4 0.8 1.5 .537 .000 .721 147.0 .154
60 Tiny Archibald 1971 1984 35.6 18.8 2.3 7.4 1.1 0.1 .467 .224 .810 83.4 .128
61 Bob McAdoo 1973 1986 33.2 22.1 9.4 2.3 1.0 1.5 .503 .081 .754 89.1 .151
62 Ray Allen 1997 2012 36.9 20.0 4.2 3.6 1.2 0.2 .452 .400 .894 135.7 .154
63 Reggie Miller 1988 2005 34.3 18.2 3.0 3.0 1.1 0.2 .471 .395 .888 174.4 .176
64 Jerry Lucas 1964 1974 38.8 17.0 15.6 3.3 0.4 0.3 .499 .783 98.4 .147
65 Alex English 1977 1991 31.9 21.5 5.5 3.6 0.9 0.7 .507 .217 .832 100.7 .127
66 Adrian Dantley 1977 1991 35.8 24.3 5.7 3.0 1.0 0.2 .540 .171 .818 134.2 .189
67 Earl Monroe 1968 1980 32.0 18.8 3.0 3.9 1.0 0.3 .464 .807 77.4 .125
68 Pete Maravich 1971 1980 37.0 24.2 4.2 5.4 1.4 0.3 .441 .667 .820 46.7 .092
69 Dennis Rodman 1987 2000 31.7 7.3 13.1 1.8 0.7 0.6 .521 .231 .584 89.8 .150
70 David Thompson 1977 1984 32.0 22.1 3.8 3.2 0.9 0.8 .504 .277 .778 50.8 .150
71 Lenny Wilkens 1961 1975 35.3 16.5 4.7 6.7 1.3 0.2 .432 .774 95.5 .120
72 Chris Webber 1994 2008 37.1 20.7 9.8 4.2 1.4 1.4 .479 .299 .649 84.7 .132
73 Sidney Moncrief 1980 1991 30.2 15.6 4.7 3.6 1.2 0.3 .502 .284 .831 90.3 .187
74 Joe Dumars 1986 1999 34.5 16.1 2.2 4.5 0.9 0.1 .460 .382 .843 86.2 .118
75 Artis Gilmore 1977 1988 32.7 17.1 10.1 2.0 0.5 1.9 .599 .077 .713 107.4 .174
76 Dan Issel 1977 1985 31.1 20.4 7.9 2.5 1.0 0.6 .506 .253 .797 82.3 .177
77 Tracy McGrady 1998 2012 32.7 19.6 5.6 4.4 1.2 0.9 .435 .338 .746 97.3 .152
78 Dwight Howard 2005 2012 36.2 18.4 13.0 1.5 1.0 2.2 .577 .030 .588 87.5 .187
79 Paul Westphal 1973 1984 25.5 15.6 1.9 4.4 1.3 0.3 .504 .275 .820 67.7 .155
80 Bob Dandridge 1970 1982 35.2 18.5 6.8 3.4 1.3 0.6 .484 .167 .780 80.3 .131
81 Dave Bing 1967 1978 36.4 20.3 3.8 6.0 1.3 0.2 .441 .775 68.8 .101
82 Chris Mullin 1986 2001 32.6 18.2 4.1 3.5 1.6 0.6 .509 .384 .865 93.1 .139
83 Cliff Hagan 1957 1966 29.2 18.0 6.9 3.0 .450 .798 75.1 .166
84 Robert Horry 1993 2008 24.5 7.0 4.8 2.1 1.0 0.9 .425 .341 .726 66.3 .118
85 Arvydas Sabonis 1996 2003 24.2 12.0 7.3 2.1 0.8 1.1 .500 .328 .786 47.3 .200
86 Connie Hawkins 1970 1976 34.5 16.5 8.0 4.1 1.2 0.8 .467 .785 47.5 .132
87 Gail Goodrich 1966 1979 32.5 18.6 3.2 4.7 1.3 0.2 .456 .807 76.3 .109
88 Shawn Kemp 1990 2003 27.9 14.6 8.4 1.6 1.1 1.2 .488 .277 .741 89.5 .147
89 Vince Carter 1999 2012 35.7 21.4 5.1 3.9 1.2 0.7 .444 .374 .798 105.4 .144
90 Chris Paul 2006 2012 37.0 18.8 4.5 9.8 2.4 0.1 .472 .361 .854 89.1 .238
91 Bailey Howell 1960 1971 32.2 18.7 9.9 1.9 .480 .762 114.8 .180
92 Bob Lanier 1971 1984 33.5 20.1 10.1 3.1 1.1 1.5 .514 .154 .767 117.1 .175
93 Kevin Johnson 1988 2000 34.1 17.9 3.3 9.1 1.5 0.2 .493 .305 .841 92.8 .178
94 Jack Twyman 1956 1966 31.8 19.2 6.6 2.3 .450 .778 75.0 .138
95 Jo Jo White 1970 1981 35.8 17.2 4.0 4.9 1.3 0.2 .444 .167 .834 54.0 .087
96 Tom Chambers 1982 1998 30.6 18.1 6.1 2.1 0.8 0.6 .468 .307 .807 79.0 .11

Hellcrooner
08-18-2012, 09:45 AM
Awufull as hell.

ztilzer31
08-18-2012, 10:21 AM
I love Bill Russell but second best all time is a ****ing joke.

GoPacers33
08-18-2012, 10:24 AM
Terrible. Reggie at 63 is ****. Lebron should higher than Charles

ztilzer31
08-18-2012, 10:27 AM
Lebron should be higher then everyone lol.

Sadds The Gr8
08-18-2012, 10:28 AM
bad imo.

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 10:28 AM
One of the worst GOAT lists I have ever seen tbh.

Kobe over Shaq / Hakeem??? :facepalm:
Shaq not in the Top 5...? Shaq not in the Top 10???
West at 9??

Just an absurdly terrible and illogical list.
There is no pattern or logic behind his rankings it just seems like the rankings of a young kid putting the list in order of who he "likes" the most.

:speechless:

Hellcrooner
08-18-2012, 10:39 AM
what the **** are the likes of Horry doing there?
Comeon.

AirJordanXVIII
08-18-2012, 10:41 AM
Robert Horry! Hahaha.

knicksfan42
08-18-2012, 10:43 AM
:clap: Robert Horry better than Chris Paul

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-18-2012, 10:47 AM
The only thing that really irks me is Kobe ahead of Hakeem and Shaq.

Heediot
08-18-2012, 10:52 AM
What's his criteria before we criticize?

Heediot
08-18-2012, 10:53 AM
He probably puts a lot of weight on championships. That's the only justification for Horry.

Hellcrooner
08-18-2012, 10:54 AM
tom heinshon, whestpan, sabonis, kemp, carter, howell, horry, dandrige,Chambers are either too high or have no bussines on the list.
And it abuses a lot of Old Timers over Recent players

Hellcrooner
08-18-2012, 10:55 AM
not surprising that there are like 25 celtics.....:rolleyes:

Shkelqim
08-18-2012, 10:58 AM
LOOL wtf this list is terrribleeee

BobbyHillSwag
08-18-2012, 11:01 AM
terrible iverson is way too low, 37 then he's lower than dfade. Sad list.

J_M_B
08-18-2012, 12:56 PM
What makes me laugh the most is that in his most recent book, Lebron was ranked 14th .. a few years later? #20 :laugh2:

Someone is still bitter over is departure

Ill21
08-18-2012, 01:05 PM
Terrible list

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 02:40 PM
Just don't see how you could have West and Oscar over Hakeem and Shaq.

b@llhog24
08-18-2012, 02:45 PM
What's his criteria before we criticize?

This.

LAKERMANIA
08-18-2012, 02:45 PM
The only thing that really irks me is Kobe ahead of Hakeem and Shaq.
That's actually the only part of the list that I think he got right except for the obvious..

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 02:50 PM
That's actually the only part of the list that I think he got right except for the obvious..
LoL. :facepalm:

Kobe has absolutely no case to be ranked over Shaq let alone near him and his case against Hakeem is also very weak unless you completely ignore team circumstances and use the ring argument.

smith&wesson
08-18-2012, 02:55 PM
They have lebron at 20 :confused:

Sinestro
08-18-2012, 02:59 PM
These lists are always tough to make but I do have a few gripes with it mainly Hakeem and Shaq behind Kobe. LeBron is probably around the 17/18 mark at this point

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-18-2012, 03:09 PM
What makes me laugh the most is that in his most recent book, Lebron was ranked 14th .. a few years later? #20 :laugh2:

Someone is still bitter over is departure

Simmons is a Celtics and Clippers fan. I don't think he lost much sleep over LeBron ditching Cleveland high and dry.


Nice try though.

LAKERMANIA
08-18-2012, 03:11 PM
Hakeem Olajuwon

PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
23.6 .553 .513 10.3 23.8 17.2 12.1 2.4 5.4 13.1 27.1 108 98 68.3 94.5 162.8 .177

Kobe Bryant
23.4 .554 .486 3.7 12.6 8.2 23.9 2.1 1.0 11.4 31.8 112 105 115.5 46.9 162.4 .184

its Olajuwon 9 Kobe 8, Olajuwon also played more minutes than Kobe as of right now in Kobe's career, Olajuwon also won his only 2 rings while Jordan decided to take a year and a half off... Or else he would have also joined the list of 90s players who were ringless.. Kobe has just as many finals MVPs, more titles, more all star game appearances, they both have the same amount of season MVPs, Olajuwon had more defensive player of the year awards because Olajuwon was a better defender (obviously), more all-nba 1st teams for Kobe, oh and more all nba DEFENSIVE 1st team awards by Kobe..

Bottom line is, it's close, the thing is, advanced stats tell a lot about players, but just because Hakeem loses in the accolades department, doesn't mean we can't consider it in the All-time list..

ThuglifeJ
08-18-2012, 03:14 PM
just by knowing Simmon's articles..this list is based on who he knows/likes the best honestly.

what a joke. Im sick of the championship argument...so what I could be a ****in 3 pt specialist and stand in a corner on a championship team..doesnt make you better than CP3, Carter, Tmac who carried teams and are ranked behind Horry?

this guy's main knock is this. 'leave your team i hate you'. Which is why Shaq, and guys like who i just mentioned are ranked so low.

Dwade my *** is that high on GOAT list as well

Sinestro
08-18-2012, 03:18 PM
This is why these lists are hard to make, Rings,stats,prime,peak,longetivity,competition, can all be reasons to raise/lower someone. No matter what happens there will NEVER be a "correct" list

ThuglifeJ
08-18-2012, 03:25 PM
it should be not that hard...

your impact on the league / your career/importance to team/winning..and overall dominance

topdog
08-18-2012, 03:28 PM
Dwayne Wade is better than David Robinson :confused:

LAKERMANIA
08-18-2012, 03:29 PM
Ok so here's a question to all the "advanced stats only" posters, in a comparison between Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon, most people would say that Olajuwon was better, but by comparing their advanced stats, it would be clear that Malone would get the edge in advanced stats 11-6...

So would that mean that Malone was better than Hakeem just because he has the edge in more categories in terms of advanced stats? If you say yes, then you would have to rank Malone higher than Hakeem in the all time list.. However, if you say no, then how would you argue that Hakeem was better? BY COMPARING THEIR ACCOLADES.

So why is it when the same is done for Kobe vs. Hakeem, that it gets brushed aside as a "He's using the rings argument"?


PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Olajuwon
23.6 .553 .513 10.3 23.8 17.2 12.1 2.4 5.4 13.1 27.1 108 98 68.3 94.5 162.8 .177

Malone
23.9 .577 .518 7.9 23.5 16.0 17.6 1.9 1.5 12.4 29.4 113 101 142.2 92.4 234.6 .205

Lakerhead4ever
08-18-2012, 03:39 PM
People's hate for Kobe is nuts, as if he's not a top five scorer, 5 time champion, 2 time hold medalist, a number of all team defensive, and all nba, 14 time all star, MVP, 2 time finals MVP, clutch, best player of his era(tied with Tim Duncan), he's also is one of the most fears player to ever play, and is the closest thing to Jordan. And Hakeem is ahead of him?? Lol not to mention his will and determination and he's still playing at a high level at his 17th year in the league.

LAKERMANIA
08-18-2012, 03:46 PM
I don't care if people hate on Kobe, it happens. What I get irked about is when a certain player they don't like wins in a certain category of "Greatest of All Time" they automatically don't consider it.

And yet, when a player like Karl Malone who wins in 11 advanced stat categories against Olajuwon isn't ranked higher than Olajuwon in anyone's all time list, one must ask "Is there something I'm missing here?" How is it Olajuwon is considered better than Kobe in all time lists because the "advanced stats show he is the better more efficient player" when Karl Malone isn't considered better than Hakeem when he wins in more advanced stat categories?

Short answer: It's PSD...

Hawkeye15
08-18-2012, 04:01 PM
Boston bias, LeBron too low, Horry way too high, some more complaints, but what is the point

DR_1
08-18-2012, 04:04 PM
Wade in the Top 30 :laugh:

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 04:09 PM
People's hate for Kobe is nuts, as if he's not a top five scorer, 5 time champion, 2 time hold medalist, a number of all team defensive, and all nba, 14 time all star, MVP, 2 time finals MVP, clutch, best player of his era(tied with Tim Duncan), he's also is one of the most fears player to ever play, and is the closest thing to Jordan. And Hakeem is ahead of him?? Lol not to mention his will and determination and he's still playing at a high level at his 17th year in the league.

He is not a Top 5 All-Time scorer (7th-10th at best).
He is not a Top 10 All-Time O-Anchor.

3 of those Rings are sidekick Rings and only one came as the undisputed #1/Engine (2009).

He didn't deserve a large amount of his All-D selections and for the majority of his career he has been net-neutral in terms of defensive impact.

All-NBA's don't mean much and there are definitly a few of them he didn't deserve.

He only deserved one of his FMVP's and even if you gave him the 2010 one it doesn't mean much considering the performance that won it.

He is not really clutch... just a good albeit very inconsistent/streaky scorer.
If he is "on" and put in the right position he can be clutch but he can also be a choker just as easily.
He is clutch but very overrated in that term which is very poorly defined anyway.

Best player of his Era?... No.
Jordan > Shaq > Duncan > Hakeem > Kobe/KG

Most fears... what?
Did Detroit and Boston fear him? Many teams have held him to low shooting %'s even much lesser ones so I don't see the evidence behind that.

He hasn't been a Super-Star since 2010 and he has been somewhat of a team cancer the last two years with his ball dominance and inefficient/inconsistent scoring.
His longevity pales in comparison to someone like Shaq and many others.

There are some things about Kobe I admire... but you overrate him.
Career wise he is at best in the 10 range All-Time and anyone who thinks he will retire any higher then #7 or #8 at the highest is simply delusional.

SaimuKala
08-18-2012, 04:09 PM
LoL. :facepalm:

Kobe has absolutely no case to be ranked over Shaq let alone near him and his case against Hakeem is also very weak unless you completely ignore team circumstances and use the ring argument.


Your hate on Kobe is just funny. Last things I've heard from you about Kobe are ridiculous

Kobe's prime isn't even close to Wade's prime
Kobe is a team cancer
Kobe has ABSOLUTELY NO CASE to be ranked over Shaq

SMH.

SaimuKala
08-18-2012, 04:12 PM
He is not a Top 5 All-Time scorer (7th-10th at best).
He is not a Top 10 All-Time O-Anchor.

3 of those Rings are sidekick Rings and only one came as the undisputed #1/Engine (2009).

He didn't deserve a large amount of his All-D selections and for the majority of his career he has been net-neutral in terms of defensive impact.

All-NBA's don't mean much and there are definitly a few of them he didn't deserve.

He only deserved one of his FMVP's and even if you gave him the 2010 one it doesn't mean much considering the performance that won it.

He is not really clutch... just a good albeit very inconsistent/streaky scorer.
If he is "on" and put in the right position he can be clutch but he can also be a choker just as easily.
He is clutch but very overrated in that term which is very poorly defined anyway.

Best player of his Era?... No.
Jordan > Shaq > Duncan > Hakeem > Kobe/KG

Most fears... what?
Did Detroit and Boston fear him? Many teams have held him to low shooting %'s even much lesser ones so I don't see the evidence behind that.

He hasn't been a Super-Star since 2010 and he has been somewhat of a team cancer the last two years with his ball dominance and inefficient/inconsistent scoring.
His longevity pales in comparison to someone like Shaq and many others.

There are some things about Kobe I admire... but you overrate him.
Career wise he is at best in the 10 range All-Time and anyone who thinks he will retire any higher then #7 or #8 at the highest is simply delusional.

LOL. Gasol was great but did you only watch the finals?

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 04:14 PM
Your hate on Kobe is just funny. Last things I've heard from you about Kobe are ridiculous

Kobe's prime isn't even close to Wade's prime - I never said that.
I said Peak Wade is arguably better then Peak Kobe and that one could argue Wade's best 5 years are better then Kobe's best 5.

Kobe is a team cancer - He has arguably been a selfish player / partial cancer the last two years
(2011 / 2012).

Kobe has ABSOLUTELY NO CASE to be ranked over Shaq - He doesn't.


Just because you love him and that makes you pro-bias towards him doesn't mean I hate him, lol.
:eyebrow:

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 04:17 PM
LOL. Gasol was great but did you only watch the finals?

No I didn't.
I feel Gasol was slightly better in the Finals.
Gasol was also clearly the MVP of the OKC series by a significant margin.
-Gasol was just as valuable in the 2nd Round against Utah.

-Kobe was clearly the MVP of the CNFinals against PHX but the gap between him and Gasol in that series was smaller then the gap between them against OKC.

Overall its close and I don't care to say one was better then the other but Gasol was just as valuable as Kobe was in that title run.

jetsfan28
08-18-2012, 04:17 PM
It's from 2010. It says "As selected by Bill Simmons in The Book of Basketball (2010)." Nowhere does it even remotely suggest that it was 2010.


The stats are through 2012. It's a 2010 list.


It's also meant to show the best careers, not who should go first in a draft or anything like that. So yes, a guy like CP3 who had played 4.5 seasons at the time doesn't go very high, and a guy like Bill Russell who was the best player on a decades worth of championship teams does.


Wade in the Top 30 :laugh:

He was the best player on a championship team (that he carried to a championship, unlike the Billups Pistons or anyone like that). There are very, very few people who can say that.

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 04:24 PM
Wade in the Top 30 :laugh:

Wade in the Top 25-30 seems reasonable.
He should have 3 Rings and 2FMVP's already (Lebron fuxed him in 2011) and he has 5 very impressive Super-Star level seasons.

His overall longevity is obviously poor compared to some but his potency/quality in his best seasons and impressive playoff and Finals performances makes up some of the gap.

topdog
08-18-2012, 04:30 PM
Wade in the Top 25-30 seems reasonable.
He should have 3 Rings and 2FMVP's already (Lebron fuxed him in 2011) and he has 5 very impressive Super-Star level seasons.

His overall longevity is obviously poor compared to some but his potency/quality in his best seasons and impressive playoff and Finals performances makes up some of the gap.

This isn't the fantasy "Should've League." The Mavs "should've" finished the Heat off the first time around.

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 04:33 PM
This isn't the fantasy "Should've League." The Mavs "should've" finished the Heat off the first time around.

Fine well it was still another fantastic Finals performance added to his resume despite the fact that Lebron played poorly and cost him an easy Ring/FMVP.

ChiSox219
08-18-2012, 04:36 PM
I don't care if people hate on Kobe, it happens. What I get irked about is when a certain player they don't like wins in a certain category of "Greatest of All Time" they automatically don't consider it.

And yet, when a player like Karl Malone who wins in 11 advanced stat categories against Olajuwon isn't ranked higher than Olajuwon in anyone's all time list, one must ask "Is there something I'm missing here?" How is it Olajuwon is considered better than Kobe in all time lists because the "advanced stats show he is the better more efficient player" when Karl Malone isn't considered better than Hakeem when he wins in more advanced stat categories?

Short answer: It's PSD...

Hakeem was a defensive anchor of epic proportions and carried his team to two titles decimating his positional rivals along the way. B-R's advanced stats don't exactly capture that.


Boston bias, LeBron too low, Horry way too high, some more complaints, but what is the point

Old list from 2010 or something with Kobe moved up from 15 after beating Boston. I would think Lebron makes a similar jump after winning a title.

ANKUSH
08-18-2012, 04:38 PM
Just don't see how you could have West and Oscar over Hakeem and Shaq.

I don't see how you don't see it (or at least the argument for West and Oscar to be higher)...I believe you're taking the vantage point of "West and Oscar wouldn't dominate as much in Hakeem and Shaq's era of basketball" I'm assuming that because you persistently say that Jordan is the best player of all time. I don't get how people can say that. Sure, he's one of the best, but how do we know how he would stack up against today's competition or how much he'd dominate play in Wilt's era. It's all hearsay and assumptions. We truly have no definitive way of telling who is the best of all time. I would be satisfied saying that Jordan is one of the best to ever step on the court. I'd never say he's the best of all time for the very exact reason I just mentioned ....

If your argument is that Hakeem and Shaq are transcendent athletes, well, I don't understand that either. Oscar Rob was the definition of a stretch player. He could guard different positions and averaged a triple double for a season. He was the original to have that style of play...before Magic and Lebron. And Jerry West is the logo. I'm not sure there is a greater transcending player maybe besides Jordan, Magic, Wilt, and Bird.

Sactown
08-18-2012, 04:40 PM
Ok so here's a question to all the "advanced stats only" posters, in a comparison between Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon, most people would say that Olajuwon was better, but by comparing their advanced stats, it would be clear that Malone would get the edge in advanced stats 11-6...

So would that mean that Malone was better than Hakeem just because he has the edge in more categories in terms of advanced stats? If you say yes, then you would have to rank Malone higher than Hakeem in the all time list.. However, if you say no, then how would you argue that Hakeem was better? BY COMPARING THEIR ACCOLADES.

So why is it when the same is done for Kobe vs. Hakeem, that it gets brushed aside as a "He's using the rings argument"?


PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Olajuwon
23.6 .553 .513 10.3 23.8 17.2 12.1 2.4 5.4 13.1 27.1 108 98 68.3 94.5 162.8 .177

Malone
23.9 .577 .518 7.9 23.5 16.0 17.6 1.9 1.5 12.4 29.4 113 101 142.2 92.4 234.6 .205

I wouldn't use that as a way of judging talent... you can't just line up players numbers and count who wins each statistic...

So 11-6 doesn't tell the whole story, plus the lower DRtg the better, and usage rate doesn't mean you've won jack... the steals blocks rebound and per are all pretty even, Malone clearly wins in WS, but it's only relative to the amount of games they've played, but the WS/48 does tell you something considering they didn't play the same MPG and Malone clearly wins, Malone was a better offensive player and the dream clearly was the better defensive player, plus you have to consider Malone had Stockton which would certainly help his ORtg and eFG% TS%.

Although Bill Simmons clearly is biased and gives rings way to much credit for each individual

Lakerhead4ever
08-18-2012, 04:46 PM
He is not a Top 5 All-Time scorer (7th-10th at best).
He is not a Top 10 All-Time O-Anchor.

3 of those Rings are sidekick Rings and only one came as the undisputed #1/Engine (2009).

He didn't deserve a large amount of his All-D selections and for the majority of his career he has been net-neutral in terms of defensive impact.

All-NBA's don't mean much and there are definitly a few of them he didn't deserve.

He only deserved one of his FMVP's and even if you gave him the 2010 one it doesn't mean much considering the performance that won it.

He is not really clutch... just a good albeit very inconsistent/streaky scorer.
If he is "on" and put in the right position he can be clutch but he can also be a choker just as easily.
He is clutch but very overrated in that term which is very poorly defined anyway.

Best player of his Era?... No.
Jordan > Shaq > Duncan > Hakeem > Kobe/KG

Most fears... what?
Did Detroit and Boston fear him? Many teams have held him to low shooting %'s even much lesser ones so I don't see the evidence behind that.

He hasn't been a Super-Star since 2010 and he has been somewhat of a team cancer the last two years with his ball dominance and inefficient/inconsistent scoring.
His longevity pales in comparison to someone like Shaq and many others.

There are some things about Kobe I admire... but you overrate him.
Career wise he is at best in the 10 range All-Time and anyone who thinks he will retire any higher then #7 or #8 at the highest is simply delusional.

Even with all he did in his career he gets knocked. But its cool, players like mj, bird, and countless other greats already said what I said. Their opinions are much stronger than yours and mines.

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 04:47 PM
I don't see how you don't see it (or at least the argument for West and Oscar to be higher)...I believe you're taking the vantage point of "West and Oscar wouldn't dominate as much in Hakeem and Shaq's era of basketball" I'm assuming that because you persistently say that Jordan is the best player of all time. I don't get how people can say that. Sure, he's one of the best, but how do we know how he would stack up against today's competition or how much he'd dominate play in Wilt's era. It's all hearsay and assumptions. We truly have no definitive way of telling who is the best of all time. I would be satisfied saying that Jordan is one of the best to ever step on the court. I'd never say he's the best of all time for the very exact reason I just mentioned ....

If your argument is that Hakeem and Shaq are transcendent athletes, well, I don't understand that either. Oscar Rob was the definition of a stretch player. He could guard different positions and averaged a triple double for a season. He was the original to have that style of play...before Magic and Lebron. And Jerry West is the logo. I'm not sure there is a greater transcending player maybe besides Jordan, Magic, Wilt, and Bird.
West nor Oscar won titles as the best on the team while Hakeem and Shaq won multiple titles as the best and best player in the league. That is the difference.

Sactown
08-18-2012, 04:48 PM
Even with all he did in his career he gets knocked. But its cool, players like mj, bird, and countless other greats already said what I said. Their opinions are much stronger than yours and mines.

No they're not... according to Pippen, Lebron is the best basketball player ever.. while Jordan claims he could easily score 100 points in todays game... They all have ego's and agendas.. What they say is as biased as it comes...

Sactown
08-18-2012, 04:49 PM
And JB would love this thread as it makes Jordan look >>>>>>>>>> ahead of Lebron and Kobe...

DR_1
08-18-2012, 04:56 PM
Wade in the Top 25-30 seems reasonable.
He should have 3 Rings and 2FMVP's already (Lebron fuxed him in 2011) and he has 5 very impressive Super-Star level seasons.

His overall longevity is obviously poor compared to some but his potency/quality in his best seasons and impressive playoff and Finals performances makes up some of the gap.

:facepalm: There a lot of greats who can say that. I guy who has no longevity can't be put in the Top 50, let alone Top 30.

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 05:03 PM
:facepalm: There a lot of greats who can say that. I guy who has no longevity can't be put in the Top 50, let alone Top 30.
Quality VS Quantity.

Five seasons of level 10 play >>> 10 seasons of level 4 play

Understand?

He is in my Top 30 right now and depending on how he ends his career he could finish in the 15-20 range.

In terms of Super-Star level seasons he is pretty good with 4-5.
Someone like Kobe only has 4-5 Super-Star level seasons.

alexander_37
08-18-2012, 05:11 PM
Shaq at 12 makes me happy, Hakeem ahead of Shaq makes me happy, but Hakeem at 11 is bad.

hgtiger32
08-18-2012, 05:13 PM
It's from 2010. It says "As selected by Bill Simmons in The Book of Basketball (2010)." Nowhere does it even remotely suggest that it was 2010.


The stats are through 2012. It's a 2010 list.


It's also meant to show the best careers, not who should go first in a draft or anything like that. So yes, a guy like CP3 who had played 4.5 seasons at the time doesn't go very high, and a guy like Bill Russell who was the best player on a decades worth of championship teams does.



He was the best player on a championship team (that he carried to a championship, unlike the Billups Pistons or anyone like that). There are very, very few people who can say that.

Amen to this.

If you read his book he explains the entire process of coming up with the list. He calls it the pyramid...

alexander_37
08-18-2012, 05:13 PM
Hakeem won titles with no legitimate number 2 option, let alone a number 3 option. If Jordan wasn't in the league at the time he would probably have more than 2 titles.

Ebbs
08-18-2012, 05:16 PM
How is Wade higher than Dirk?

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 05:17 PM
Hakeem won titles with no legitimate number 2 option, let alone a number 3 option. If Jordan wasn't in the league at the time he would probably have more than 2 titles.

He got pretty lucky winning two actually.

Phoenix choked epically in 94 or 95... don't remember which year it was and if not for Anderson choking in G1 of the 95 Finals and the truly horrible play/choking of O'neals roleplayers (Anderson/Scott in particular) in the 95 Finals he could have very easily lost that series.

Also don't say he won with no legit #2.
He had a very strong cast in 95 with Drexler / Horry + some very good and clutch roleplayers.
Drexler was arguably the best SG in the league that year, a legit star and a very good #2.

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 05:19 PM
How is Wade higher than Dirk?

Dirk is way too low.

MintBerryCrunch
08-18-2012, 05:20 PM
The only thing that really irks me is Kobe ahead of Hakeem and Shaq.

It shouldnt

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-18-2012, 05:21 PM
LoL. :facepalm:

Kobe has absolutely no case to be ranked over Shaq let alone near him and his case against Hakeem is also very weak unless you completely ignore team circumstances and use the ring argument.

Stop trolling check both their achievements Kobe>shaq

MintBerryCrunch
08-18-2012, 05:25 PM
Stop trolling check both their achievements Kobe>shaq

THANK YOU. This

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 05:25 PM
Stop trolling check both their achievements Kobe>shaq

Huh...?

Shaq completely annihilates Kobe as a playoff performer in terms of production, consistency and performances over practically any number of years and has better longevity still.

He also has 10+ Super-Star level seasons to Kobe who has 4-5.



#1.
Jordan : Post Season - PER
Peak : 32
Top 5 : 30.16
Top 7 : 29.61
Top 10 : 28.89
Top 13 : 28.6

------------------------------------------------------------

#2.
Shaq : Post Season - PER
Peak : 31
Top 5 : 30
Top 7 : 29.56
Top 10 : 28.52
Top 13 : 26.55
14th to 16th Season (Final 3 Seasons) - 18.33

------------------------------------------------------------

#15.
Kobe : Post Season - PER
Peak : 26.8
Top 5 : 24
Top 7 : 23
Top 10 : 22.98
Top 13 : 21.62

------------------------------------------------------------


Kobe is not even on the same planet as O'neal who was simply a far better player.

Achievements?

Shaq has more MVP Shares / Playoff WShares.

Shaq led 5 Teams to the Finals as the undisputed #1 and won 3 Titles in that position.
Kobe led 2 Teams to the Finals as the undisputed #1 and won 1 Title in that position.

So... yeah quit being biased.

Shaq from 95-04 > Peak Kobe

Shaq is a Top 3 All-Time player... or at the very worst cannot be ranked lower then #5 from a logical perspective.

Kobe is borderline Top 10 and even in the most generous of situations could never get higher then #7 by the time he retires.

jetsfan28
08-18-2012, 05:29 PM
How is Wade higher than Dirk?

Because, as of publication, Wade (in addition to being one of the best players on the redeem team) had led his team to a championship, and Dirk had not.

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-18-2012, 05:32 PM
Huh...?

Shaq completely annihilates Kobe as a playoff performer in terms of production, consistency and performances over practically any number of years and has better longevity still.

He also has 10+ Super-Star level seasons to Kobe who has 4-5.



Kobe is not even on the same planet as O'neal who was simply a far better player.

Achievements?

Shaq has more MVP Shares / Playoff WShares.

Shaq led 5 Teams to the Finals as the undisputed #1 and won 3 Titles in that position.
Kobe led 2 Teams to the Finals as the undisputed #1 and won 1 Title in that position.

So... yeah quit being biased.

Shaq from 95-04 > Peak Kobe

Shaq is a Top 3 All-Time player... or at the very worst cannot be ranked lower then #5 from a logical perspective.

Kobe is borderline Top 10 and even in the most generous of situations could never get higher then #7 by the time he retires.

Last time I checked per is an advanced stat and I don't care if shaqs peak was > then Kobe's, Kobe has been better longer!
And I said check the accolades not a stupid stat, who has more points,asts,all-star appearances all-nba teams titles etc. ?? And if Kobe is losing in any categories he will for sure pass him in most of them by the time he retires, oh and he has a weak case against Hakeem please it's the other way around, Kobe's accomplishments overshadow hakeems

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-18-2012, 05:33 PM
Lol at Andrew 32 shaq a top 5 player lol top 10 for sure top 5 though he'll no at most he's #7

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 05:34 PM
I don't care if shaqs peak was > then Kobe's, Kobe has been better longer!

Better longer?

Shaq had 11 Super-Star Seasons and 5-6 All-Star level Seasons
Kobe had 4-5 Super-Star Seasons and 8 All-Star level Seasons

Kobe hasn't even matched Shaq's longevity yet

Shaq was better for longer and if you compare them over 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 or 13 years Shaq has a huge advantage over Kobe in terms of playoff production, performances, consistency and impact.

I really think you (and many others) unappreciate how great Shaq was.

Shaq is #2 All-Time in playoff production after Jordan.
-Shaq is the most consistent playoff performer ever or Top #3 at worst in that category.
-Shaq is only behind Jordan and Russell in terms of Finals made / Titles won as the man.
-Shaq is only behind Kareem in terms of overall longevitiy and is tied for #1 in terms of Super-Star level seasons.
__________________________________________________ ___

#6 All-Time in playoff points.
#1 All-Time in FG% in the regular season and in the playoffs compared to any other Top 20 player.

#3 All-Time in playoff rebounds after Wilt and Russell
#1 All-Time in playoff offensive rebounds.
#3 All-Time in TRB% in the playoffs after Wilt and Russell (when compared to the Top 5 GOAT C's)

#1 in AST% (when compared to the Top 5 GOAT C's)

#4 All-Time in playoff blocks (only 17 behind the #2)
#2 All-Time in playoff block% behind Hakeem

GOAT Finals performer

#4 All-Time in playoff WShares behind Jabbar/Magic/Jordan
__________________________________________________ ___

So really... Shaq and Jordan are the two best players ever and outside of Kareem, Russell and Magic no one else is particularly close to them.

Shaq is inarguably Top 5 All-Time and Kobe is not very close to him.
He has 0% chance of surpassing or equaling him.

I am done here... just my opinions I will respect if you feel differently.

The goods
08-18-2012, 05:38 PM
Russel number 2? Kareem or magic are 2 and 3 and bird isn't better than Kobe.

Sactown
08-18-2012, 05:39 PM
Last time I checked per is an advanced stat and I don't care if shaqs peak was > then Kobe's, Kobe has been better longer!
And I said check the accolades not a stupid stat, who has more points,asts,all-star appearances all-nba teams titles etc. ?? And if Kobe is losing in any categories he will for sure pass him in most of them by the time he retires, oh and he has a weak case against Hakeem please it's the other way around, Kobe's accomplishments overshadow hakeems

And those are scary, so let's pretend they don't exist and they'll just go away :rolleyes:

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-18-2012, 05:42 PM
Better longer?


Shaq was better for longer and if you compare them over 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 or 13 years Shaq has a huge advantage over Kobe in terms of playoff production, performances, consistency and impact.

I really think you (and many others) unappreciate how great Shaq was.


Shaq is inarguably Top 5 All-Time and Kobe is not very close to him.
He has 0% chance of surpassing or equaling him.

I am done here... just my opinions I will respect if you feel differently.

Really every list I have seeN always has shaq around the 7-10 range with Kobe 1 or 2 spots ahead of him so idk what your talking about having shaq #2 is laughable plus shaq benefited from playing against scrub centers

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 05:47 PM
Really every list I have seeN always has shaq around the 7-10 range with Kobe 1 or 2 spots ahead of him so idk what your talking about having shaq #2 is laughable plus shaq benefited from playing against scrub centers
Many people I know Rank Shaq at #4 or #5.
I'll admit I rank Shaq higher then most but that doesn't make me wrong.

The majority of people used to think the world was flat... guess what, it wasn't.

Popular opinion is not always the correct opinion believe it or not.

As a playoff performer when looking at production, performances, consistency and longevity Shaq is easily Top 3.
Then if you look at Teams led to the Finals and Titles won as the #1/Man - Shaq is again Top 3 and only behind Russell and Jordan.

So really... I see no reason he doesn't have a good case to be Top 2-3.

Advanced stats separate him and Jordan from the rest of the pack in terms of career impact in the playoffs.

If not for some poor/selfish play by Kobe in 2003 and 2004 and some injury's in 2005 he could easily have 6 Titles and 4-5 FMVP's.

I don't define greatness by titles even though individually Shaq is behind only Jordan and Russell by that measure.

Andrew32
08-18-2012, 05:50 PM
with Kobe 1 or 2 spots ahead of him.

I call bullsh**.
I can freely admit I rank Shaq higher then the majority but the majority of people still rank Kobe behind Shaq and Duncan.

ANKUSH
08-18-2012, 06:00 PM
West nor Oscar won titles as the best on the team while Hakeem and Shaq won multiple titles as the best and best player in the league. That is the difference.

I'm obliged to use the cliche :"Basketball is a team sport"...I assume Wilt would be hard pressed to win a title without West and KAJ (a young KAJ, by the way) would be hard pressed to win the chip with that Bucks team without Oscar.

Anyways, this is straight from Oscar Robinson's mouth regarding the best ever (in association with what I've been mentioning about comparing players):

“I didn’t hear the comments,” Robertson told the Dan Sileo Show on WDAE in Tampa Wednesday morning. “Let me tell you about what being great is. Ever hear of Elgin Baylor? Never mention his name, do we? Great basketball player. You know what you have today? Michael Jordan was a great player, but he won after Chicago got Pippen, Grant and those other players to go along with him, because for a while they couldn’t beat Detroit.

“Everybody looks at what you’ve done. Sure he won six championships, Russell won eleven. There are other players on these teams when they play. They don’t play by themselves. Michael Jordan is a great player. Was he the greatest? Ask Kobe that. Ask Bill Russell. Ask Oscar Robertson. Ask Wilt Chamberlain. Ask Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, ask those guys.”

Robertson went on to say that he does not think MJ is the greatest ever and that the people doing the anointing never saw many of the game’s best play.

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 06:34 PM
I'm obliged to use the cliche :"Basketball is a team sport"...I assume Wilt would be hard pressed to win a title without West and KAJ (a young KAJ, by the way) would be hard pressed to win the chip with that Bucks team without Oscar.

Anyways, this is straight from Oscar Robinson's mouth regarding the best ever (in association with what I've been mentioning about comparing players):

“I didn’t hear the comments,” Robertson told the Dan Sileo Show on WDAE in Tampa Wednesday morning. “Let me tell you about what being great is. Ever hear of Elgin Baylor? Never mention his name, do we? Great basketball player. You know what you have today? Michael Jordan was a great player, but he won after Chicago got Pippen, Grant and those other players to go along with him, because for a while they couldn’t beat Detroit.

“Everybody looks at what you’ve done. Sure he won six championships, Russell won eleven. There are other players on these teams when they play. They don’t play by themselves. Michael Jordan is a great player. Was he the greatest? Ask Kobe that. Ask Bill Russell. Ask Oscar Robertson. Ask Wilt Chamberlain. Ask Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, ask those guys.”

Robertson went on to say that he does not think MJ is the greatest ever and that the people doing the anointing never saw many of the game’s best play.
You didn't answer the question. I'm not even debating on the MJ thing. I said Hakeem and Shaq won titles as the best players on there teams and the best player in the NBA while Oscar nor West did. Like I said there is no argument for West and Oscar over Hakeem or Shaq. That is what I said. Now how do you prove that West or Oscar were better than Hakeem or Shaq?

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 06:46 PM
Lol at Andrew 32 shaq a top 5 player lol top 10 for sure top 5 though he'll no at most he's #7

You can argue Shaq is a top 5 player all time based off of peak.

On another site these are the top peaks thus far in order.

1. Michael Jordan '91, age 27
2. Shaquille O'Neal '00, age 27
3. Bill Russell '65, age 30
4. Wilt Chamberlain '67, age 30
5. Hakeem Olajuwon '94, age 31
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar '77, age 29
7. Larry Bird '86, age 29
8. Magic Johnson '87, age 27

John Walls Era
08-18-2012, 06:50 PM
2010 just called. They want their thread back.

At the time I really liked the list though. I actually have that book somewhere.

Sactown
08-18-2012, 07:00 PM
You can argue Shaq is a top 5 player all time based off of peak.

On another site these are the top peaks thus far in order.

1. Michael Jordan '91, age 27
2. Shaquille O'Neal '00, age 27
3. Bill Russell '65, age 30
4. Wilt Chamberlain '67, age 30
5. Hakeem Olajuwon '94, age 31
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar '77, age 29
7. Larry Bird '86, age 29
8. Magic Johnson '87, age 27

Ummm how is Lebrons 08-09 campaign not in there? he smashed Larry Bird's 86' campaign by miles
and honestly up there with Jordans...

bagwell368
08-18-2012, 08:05 PM
2 Bill Russell 1957 1969 42.3 15.1 22.5 4.3 .440 .561 163.5 .193

9 Jerry West 1961 1974 39.2 27.0 5.8 6.7 2.6 0.7 .474 .814 162.6 .213

14 John Havlicek 1963 1978 36.6 20.8 6.3 4.8 1.2 0.3 .439 .815 131.7 .136

19 Charles Barkley 1985 2000 36.7 22.1 11.7 3.9 1.5 0.8 .541 .266 .735 177.2 .216

22 Kevin Garnett 1996 2012 36.5 19.3 10.6 4.0 1.3 1.5 .499 .283 .790 181.6 .190

23 Isiah Thomas 1982 1994 36.3 19.2 3.6 9.3 1.9 0.3 .452 .290 .759 80.7 .109

31 Dave Cowens 1971 1983 38.6 17.6 13.6 3.8 1.1 0.9 .460 .071 .783 86.3 .140

42 Wes Unseld 1969 1981 36.4 10.8 14.0 3.9 1.1 0.6 .509 .500 .633 110.1 .147

50 James Worthy 1983 1994 32.4 17.6 5.1 3.0 1.1 0.7 .521 .241 .769 81.2 .130

51 Elvin Hayes 1969 1984 38.4 21.0 12.5 1.8 1.0 2.0 .452 .147 .670 120.8 .116

54 Dennis Johnson 1977 1990 32.7 14.1 3.9 5.0 1.3 0.6 .445 .172 .797 82.6 .110

68 Pete Maravich 1971 1980 37.0 24.2 4.2 5.4 1.4 0.3 .441 .667 .820 46.7 .092

75 Artis Gilmore 1977 1988 32.7 17.1 10.1 2.0 0.5 1.9 .599 .077 .713 107.4 .174

84 Robert Horry 1993 2008 24.5 7.0 4.8 2.1 1.0 0.9 .425 .341 .726 66.3 .118

95 Jo Jo White 1970 1981 35.8 17.2 4.0 4.9 1.3 0.2 .444 .167 .834 54.0 .087



Red means too high, blue means too low

I'm a Celts fan and I promise you that he's badly overrated most of the Celts on his list.

If I took a half hour I could come up with another 25 poorly placed guys. I advise no rubbernecking this list on the way by.

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 08:12 PM
Ummm how is Lebrons 08-09 campaign not in there? he smashed Larry Bird's 86' campaign by miles
and honestly up there with Jordans...

He was getting some love by #3, but it boils down to losing with HCA to a team that he shouldn't had lost to. Also 2012 Lebron is getting more recognition than 2009 Lebron. You forget in 2009 the first two rounds were pretty much cakewalk for the Cavs. And it was the same playoffs where many star players were out.

ANKUSH
08-18-2012, 08:25 PM
You didn't answer the question. I'm not even debating on the MJ thing. I said Hakeem and Shaq won titles as the best players on there teams and the best player in the NBA while Oscar nor West did. Like I said there is no argument for West and Oscar over Hakeem or Shaq. That is what I said. Now how do you prove that West or Oscar were better than Hakeem or Shaq?

Well, my argument can be essentially found in my first response in this thread. I am arguing that O. Rob. and West are more transcendent players than Hakeem and Shaq. They've done more to set the foundation for how future players play in comparison to Shaq and Hakeem. I'm not saying Shaq and Hakeem didn't. Shaq was on of the most unique centers to play with his passing skills, athleticism, and brute force. Hakeem was refined both offensively and defensively and was one of the few players to have the capacity to get a quad-double on any given night...I just think they weren't as transcendent as West and O. Rob who had the opportunity to define their positions. They didn't win as many championships, but I'm arguing in terms of player ability and influence. If you're arguing championships, then you've clearly won this argument (actually there wouldn't even be one).

Chronz
08-18-2012, 08:36 PM
Peak vs Longevity is a personal decision, its why most people disagree on every list, all that said, this is one pretty bad list.


Ok so here's a question to all the "advanced stats only" posters, in a comparison between Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon, most people would say that Olajuwon was better, but by comparing their advanced stats, it would be clear that Malone would get the edge in advanced stats 11-6...

So would that mean that Malone was better than Hakeem just because he has the edge in more categories in terms of advanced stats? If you say yes, then you would have to rank Malone higher than Hakeem in the all time list.. However, if you say no, then how would you argue that Hakeem was better? BY COMPARING THEIR ACCOLADES.

So why is it when the same is done for Kobe vs. Hakeem, that it gets brushed aside as a "He's using the rings argument"?


PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Olajuwon
23.6 .553 .513 10.3 23.8 17.2 12.1 2.4 5.4 13.1 27.1 108 98 68.3 94.5 162.8 .177

Malone
23.9 .577 .518 7.9 23.5 16.0 17.6 1.9 1.5 12.4 29.4 113 101 142.2 92.4 234.6 .205

Playoffs + Defense + Actual Analysis.

Hellcrooner
08-18-2012, 09:29 PM
Just find me any good excuse to have sabonis in there and not pau.

allstars? no

all league teams? no

Stats? no
Peak stats? No

Longevity? No

rings? No


b.s top to bottom.

Chronz
08-18-2012, 09:43 PM
Just find me any good excuse to have sabonis in there and not pau.

allstars? no

all league teams? no

Stats? no
Peak stats? No

Longevity? No

rings? No


b.s top to bottom.

The obvious rationale is that it has to do with his talent and not his NBA career.

Hellcrooner
08-18-2012, 09:53 PM
The obvious rationale is that it has to do with his talent and not his NBA career.

Pity we in an all time NBA list you dont value "talent" but CAREER.

If its bout "talent" i want Penny and grant hill out there in the top 10 and , len bias, and ray williams and blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Does horry have more "talent" pleaaaaaaaaaaaaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

This is a b.s list made by a boston fanboy and laker hater.

Bruno
08-18-2012, 10:02 PM
why are Shaq and Hakeem lower than O and West? does he offer explanation? Other than that blunder, i've seen far worse.

Chronz
08-18-2012, 10:07 PM
Pity we in an all time NBA list you dont value "talent" but CAREER.

If its bout "talent" i want Penny and grant hill out there in the top 10 and , len bias, and ray williams and blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Does horry have more "talent" pleaaaaaaaaaaaaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

This is a b.s list made by a boston fanboy and laker hater.

Yea but Simmons wasnt making an All-NBA list, he was just doing a players list.

I get your argument of Grant Hill but wasnt Arvydas healthier than Penny?

D-Will4Prez
08-18-2012, 10:19 PM
I wouldn't use that as a way of judging talent... you can't just line up players numbers and count who wins each statistic...

So 11-6 doesn't tell the whole story, plus the lower DRtg the better, and usage rate doesn't mean you've won jack... the steals blocks rebound and per are all pretty even, Malone clearly wins in WS, but it's only relative to the amount of games they've played, but the WS/48 does tell you something considering they didn't play the same MPG and Malone clearly wins, Malone was a better offensive player and the dream clearly was the better defensive player, plus you have to consider Malone had Stockton which would certainly help his ORtg and eFG% TS%.

Although Bill Simmons clearly is biased and gives rings way to much credit for each individual

x2. I know as a Jazz fan I'm supposed to be the homer and say that Malone > Everyone, but Hakeem WAS better than Malone overall. Malone was better offensively (with the help of John), but Hakeem ran circles around him defensively. Both guys are top 15 all-time players IMO, but Hakeem wins, regardless of the B-R "advanced stats" categories.

JordansBulls
08-18-2012, 10:46 PM
Well, my argument can be essentially found in my first response in this thread. I am arguing that O. Rob. and West are more transcendent players than Hakeem and Shaq. They've done more to set the foundation for how future players play in comparison to Shaq and Hakeem. I'm not saying Shaq and Hakeem didn't. Shaq was on of the most unique centers to play with his passing skills, athleticism, and brute force. Hakeem was refined both offensively and defensively and was one of the few players to have the capacity to get a quad-double on any given night...I just think they weren't as transcendent as West and O. Rob who had the opportunity to define their positions. They didn't win as many championships, but I'm arguing in terms of player ability and influence. If you're arguing championships, then you've clearly won this argument (actually there wouldn't even be one).

I disagree that Oscar and West were more transcendent. Do you realize no other big man has the dominance of Shaq or the footwork or moves of Hakeem?

KnicksorBust
08-19-2012, 12:52 PM
It's from 2010. It says "As selected by Bill Simmons in The Book of Basketball (2010)." Nowhere does it even remotely suggest that it was 2010.


The stats are through 2012. It's a 2010 list.


It's also meant to show the best careers, not who should go first in a draft or anything like that. So yes, a guy like CP3 who had played 4.5 seasons at the time doesn't go very high, and a guy like Bill Russell who was the best player on a decades worth of championship teams does.



He was the best player on a championship team (that he carried to a championship, unlike the Billups Pistons or anyone like that). There are very, very few people who can say that.

Thank you.


How is Wade higher than Dirk?

List was pre-Mavs title. I'd be curious to see how he'd update it. Kobe's become a fascinating debate historically at this point. After my Knicks, I'd love to see the Lakers win the chip. Think of the ramifications of Nash-Kobe-Pau-Dwight all winning a ring together.


I disagree that Oscar and West were more transcendent. Do you realize no other big man has the dominance of Shaq or the footwork or moves of Hakeem?

"No one had the moves of Hakeem." First of all, Kevin McHale could have something to say about that. Second of all, pinpointing a unique skill like that has no bearing. It's all about the totality of their careers.

Oscar was the first unstoppable guard. He was scoring effeciently before 40 years before anybody even considered that word. If it wasn't for Wilt, he'd have dominated in categories like PER/TS% for a decade. As is, he made all-nba 1st team for a decade straight. How many players can say that? He could blend passing-scoring-rebound as good as any player of all-time.

Meanwhile, West was in so many damn finals you have to give him credit. I don't understand why people drool over 3 unstoppable years and ignore a decade of SUSTAINED greatness.

KnicksorBust
08-19-2012, 12:53 PM
Btw, I've read the Book of Basketball cover to cover multiple times. It's also a great 5 minute pick-up if you need to take a ****. Even if you disagree with his opinions, it's a must-read for a diehard basketball fan.

BklynKnicks3
08-19-2012, 02:44 PM
clown list espcially those guys in the end they wouldnt even start in the nba today. Jojo white is better then melo lol what a joke. bob cousy 21 lol I think iam better then him i mean i respect what these guys did for the game but to compare them to todays greats is a joke. Bob cousy vs iverson lol Ai might drop 175. Its really unfair to compare eras they should just have top 50 every 20 years or so

BklynKnicks3
08-19-2012, 02:47 PM
robert horry lol this guy is a certified clown guy is not top 1000. I didnt know being a role player 90% of ur career makes u a all time great

BobbyHillSwag
08-19-2012, 02:59 PM
clown list espcially those guys in the end they wouldnt even start in the nba today. Jojo white is better then melo lol what a joke. bob cousy 21 lol I think iam better then him i mean i respect what these guys did for the game but to compare them to todays greats is a joke. Bob cousy vs iverson lol Ai might drop 175. Its really unfair to compare eras they should just have top 50 every 20 years or so

lol seriously, im pretty sure AI would drop 25 on him in 5 minutes of playing time. playing around lol, but that doesnt really go for ever player. Im thinking the George Mikan era isnt too legit but when they got to the wilt era it is fair game against todays players.

Jaji
08-19-2012, 06:58 PM
Stopped reading at #2. Bill Simmons is such a homer. :rolleyes:

KnicksorBust
08-19-2012, 07:17 PM
Stopped reading at #2. Bill Simmons is such a homer. :rolleyes:

How many guys have won more MVP's than Bill Russell?

How many guys have won more championships than Bill Russell?

The guy writes a comprehensive history of the entire NBA and people want to label him a homer. If more people had read the damn book we'd have a hell of a lot better discussions on here. Hell, if he was such a homer why did he put Magic over Bird?

RLundi
08-19-2012, 07:30 PM
Lol I love Bill Simmons but he should never do anything analytical. Stick to jokes and making fun of celebrities- that's why I read what he writes.

JordansBulls
08-19-2012, 11:15 PM
Stopped reading at #2. Bill Simmons is such a homer. :rolleyes:

What's wrong with Russell at #2?

Andrew32
08-19-2012, 11:38 PM
What's wrong with Russell at #2?
Nothing at all although personally I have him at #4.

NoahH
08-20-2012, 02:08 AM
IDK if Robert Horry was even the 84th best player in the league during any given year LMAO! 84 makes it seem like he was a superstar. Robert Horry a resounding 0 all star appearances and alot of luck!

Longhornfan1234
08-20-2012, 02:44 AM
What's wrong with Russell at #2?

Wilt, Kareem, and Magic are better.


I have Bill at #5.

Frozenred
08-20-2012, 03:06 AM
Dwayne Wade at 28?

Longhornfan1234
08-20-2012, 03:14 AM
Dwayne Wade at 28?

:facepalm:

He's a fringe top 50 player.

knightstemplar
08-20-2012, 05:53 AM
Nothing at all although personally I have him at #4.

Personally no one cares

Anyone who thinks Pau Gasol was the best player on the 2010 Lakers or that 2010 Pau was close/as good as 01 and 02 Kobe needs medical help.