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effen5
08-17-2012, 08:46 AM
Why are centers in this era so fundamentally bad?

Would one reason be that they came out so young and immature and thought they could be good just with their talents (Dwight for example)

How come many centers in this league don't even have a decent post up game? (Tyson Chandler for example)

And it seems like a lot of the centers are just flat out immature (Bynum, McGee, Cousins)

It really seems odd to me after years of watching great centers such as Robinson, Ewing, Vlade, Shaq, Alonzo, Sabonis, etc.... that this era is absolutely pathetic at the center position.

tredigs
08-17-2012, 09:16 AM
... and you're not even mentioning Hakeem (Arguable GOAT center), Mutombo, etc. Yeah, the position has fallen off and it is odd to me given the level of coaching we have available and they Nth level training facilities that they have at their fingertips. Ultimately, greatness comes from within and we just aren't seeing an age where these bigs want it.

KD does. So does Rose and a few others. Guess that's the ebb and flow of it all. I'd love to see them all come to top form at once, it would make for a ridiculously good league. The center position has rarely been weaker.

Hellcrooner
08-17-2012, 09:16 AM
bogut, noah, marc gasol, pekovic, gortat. there still are soem centers with good fundamentals, not to mention the fake centers like duncan, pau, bargnani, bosh, stoudamire, kg lately etc.

The thing is offenses no longer feature them as much as in the past.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2012, 09:19 AM
big guys wanting to be perimeter players is a big part of why there are no great big men anymore.

LongIslandIcedZ
08-17-2012, 09:21 AM
It would do the Knicks and the Bulls wonders if Chandler or Noah had a decent post up game.

tredigs
08-17-2012, 09:23 AM
big guys wanting to be perimeter players is a big part of why there are no great big men anymore.

Whateva hata. Bynum fo the Tripppppple ! --- >

effen5
08-17-2012, 09:24 AM
It would do the Knicks and the Bulls wonders if Chandler or Noah had a decent post up game.

Noah is starting to develop that post up game, but his game is so awkward.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2012, 09:25 AM
Whateva hata. Bynum fo the Tripppppple ! --- >

I can't tell you how many times I yelled at my television watching Garnett shoot a fadeaway from 15. Dude, you are 7'1'', stop being such a nancy.

BSardogan
08-17-2012, 09:25 AM
All of the above, and the fact that big guys can't camp in the middle of the paint for 48 minutes and swat the **** out of weak layups anymore.

McGee would be the GOAT and average a triple double for his career if it weren't for superstar-calls, floppers like Harden and the 3 second rule. That, and if he had even the slightest bit of IQ. But that last one is a pretty big 'if'.

effen5
08-17-2012, 09:26 AM
big guys wanting to be perimeter players is a big part of why there are no great big men anymore.

Also, I also see this as one of the reasons why PGs can get to the rim at will. Big guys also no longer guard the rim as they used to. Rose, Lebron, Wade, RW, etc....they can get to the rim at will and finish because of the lack of great big men.

tredigs
08-17-2012, 09:31 AM
I can't tell you how many times I yelled at my television watching Garnett shoot a fadeaway from 15. Dude, you are 7'1'', stop being such a nancy.

Watching all these "Hakeem teams up with X player" threads always makes me think of the 'what if' on KG in that coaching situation. Yikes.

Heediot
08-17-2012, 09:33 AM
big guys wanting to be perimeter players is a big part of why there are no great big men anymore.

Exactly. With the internet boom followed by the youtube boom, young big men are sucked into the style over substance mentality. They see all the wing players getting all the love, and they get caught up in the hype. Even the music industry has gone down the toilet, there was always cheesy pop and commercial music, but it's worse than ever. There is more cookie cutter mindless music than ever before. This is the side effects of the internet and its resource/easy access. Corporations and sites like espn want to suck you in, they know 80 percent or more of the population are mindless when it comes to entertainment and food, so they prey on human weaknesses and tendencies.

C_Mund
08-17-2012, 09:34 AM
big guys wanting to be perimeter players is a big part of why there are no great big men anymore.

This. When kids are younger they grow up emulating MJ, Kobe, etc. By the time they're 6'11 they're thin and athletic and can shoot mid range but have NO idea how to use their body and move their feet in the paint. It's not as easy as just turning your back to the rim and playing from there. Footwork and using your weight correctly are the keys to getting high percentage shots in the post.

.....also I don't think people understand how important college ball is. Learning fundamentals and working on core strength are imperative to most kids coming out of high school, and one year usually doesn't cut it.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2012, 09:39 AM
This. When kids are younger they grow up emulating MJ, Kobe, etc. By the time they're 6'11 they're thin and athletic and can shoot mid range but have NO idea how to use their body and move their feet in the paint. It's not as easy as just turning your back to the rim and playing from there. Footwork and using your weight correctly are the keys to getting high percentage shots in the post.

.....also I don't think people understand how important college ball is. Learning fundamentals and working on core strength are imperative to most kids coming out of high school, and one year usually doesn't cut it.

yep. Big men take longer to develop. The NBA many times is not a develomental league for big men, they fall into oblvion if they can't contribute right away. Back in the day bigs didn't come into the NBA until age 22 or so, with 4 years of experience playing the post in college. That doesn't happen anymore.

Heediot
08-17-2012, 09:39 AM
Another reason is that they come to the nba too early as someone mentioned. They some into the league raw and physically undeveloped. In high school coaches let the elite athletes dominate with their natural ability, as such they don't develop fundamentals as much. If player went to college for more than 1-2 years, their games would pay dividends. They will be coached up and they will be more physically and mentally prepared for the nba. No matter what, going to college or straigth pro it takes the 5 a longer time to develop than any other position might as well take the playing time and hone your big man skills.

effen5
08-17-2012, 09:41 AM
yep. Big men take longer to develop. The NBA many times is not a develomental league for big men, they fall into oblvion if they can't contribute right away. Back in the day bigs didn't come into the NBA until age 22 or so, with 4 years of experience playing the post in college. That doesn't happen anymore.

I don't know too many big men that stayed in college for 4 years in this era but I know one for sure...and thats Taj Gibson and his fundamentals are fantastic.

Heediot
08-17-2012, 09:45 AM
I don't know too many big men that stayed in college for 4 years in this era but I know one for sure...and thats Taj Gibson and his fundamentals are fantastic.

Roy Hibbert also.

effen5
08-17-2012, 09:50 AM
Roy Hibbert also.

Obviously they might now have the talent of a Dwight Howard but they are so much more fundamentally sound than players who came straight out of high school or one and dones like an Eddy Curry or Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bynum etc...

BSardogan
08-17-2012, 09:52 AM
Also, I also see this as one of the reasons why PGs can get to the rim at will. Big guys also no longer paint the rim as they used to. Rose, Lebron, Wade, RW, etc....they can get to the rim at will and finish because of the lack of great big men.

No. LeBron, Wade, RW etc. can get to the rim at will because the refs WILL call fouls when someone in the crowd farts.

Shooting fouls need to be completely reimplemented because the way they're called now, guards have a massive advantage over centers and refs screw great defensive plays with ghost calls. It's impossible for a defensively minded center not to get into foul trouble playing as hard as possible on D, because guys like Wade are sure to get free trips to the line for just driving into a crowded paint and take a layup that's contested by 3 defenders.

Sly Guy
08-17-2012, 09:55 AM
combination of attitude and the way games are officiated. There's a whole lot less bangin' goin on in the game these days, and the more they allow, the better it is for the biggest guys.

StarvingKnick22
08-17-2012, 10:03 AM
Well, throught history every dynasty belonged to a group of Point Gaurds or Centers. This on is basically a Gaurd one.
Basically:
60s- Wilt and Russell
70s- Jerry West, Walt Frazier, Oscar Robertson- Kareem, Reed
80- Magic, Thomas, DJohnson- Jabbar, Worthy
90s- Drexler, The Great John Stockton, The Glove,- Hakeem,Ewing
00s- Shaq, Yao, Duncan in a way, Howard,- CP3, Nash,Kidd
10s- lets just wait and see.

JasonJohnHorn
08-17-2012, 10:16 AM
I think one of the biggest reasons that centers these days aren't as good offensively as centers in the past is because of the "3 seconds with your back to the basket" rule. They introduced this rule between 10-15 years ago (I forget which season), and since then post players have become a rarity indeed. Guys like Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, they all used to play with their back to the basket and would take their time, backing up to get position. Sometimes they had the ball for 5 or 6 secons before they got to the spot they wanted, and the league thought this slowed the game down, so they introduced the 'back to the basket' rule to spead things up. Since then, PFs and Cs have had to adjust their games. You have to be quick with your back to the basket, or you'll need range to score. That is why Tim Duncan and Garnett are so great, because they have range and don't depend on back-to-the-basket play to score.

That is the reason there aren't as many centers scoring like the used to. A lot of big men just never develop much of a jumper and so they aren't as big a part of the offence. But another reason is because we had been spoiled. I mean, come on, a league featuring Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, , Mutumbo and Shaq all at the same time in their primes? We are never going to see such depth at the center position ever again, so everything after will pale in comparison.

But there are still some good centers in the league, but lets be honest, even the best center today (Howard) likely wouldn't even be considered in the top five in the mid 90's. He would have been behind; Hakeem, Robison, Mourning Shaq and Ewing. He would have had a hard time making the all-star team.

justinnum1
08-17-2012, 10:19 AM
everyone wants to be like mike

Heediot
08-17-2012, 10:22 AM
I think one of the biggest reasons that centers these days aren't as good offensively as centers in the past is because of the "3 seconds with your back to the basket" rule. They introduced this rule between 10-15 years ago (I forget which season), and since then post players have become a rarity indeed.

Hmmm.. That's a very significant point you brought up. Great insight there.

AllKohn
08-17-2012, 10:50 AM
You say that centers are fundamentally flawed these days and I couldn't disagree more. Both Maurkice Pouncey and Nick Mangold are two of the best fundamental blockers I have ever seen. Further they move up and down the field with agility and grace- shaming the Greg Odens.

DreamShaker
08-17-2012, 11:35 AM
Well, throught history every dynasty belonged to a group of Point Gaurds or Centers. This on is basically a Gaurd one.
Basically:
60s- Wilt and Russell
70s- Jerry West, Walt Frazier, Oscar Robertson- Kareem, Reed
80- Magic, Thomas, DJohnson- Jabbar, Worthy
90s- Drexler, The Great John Stockton, The Glove,- Hakeem,Ewing
00s- Shaq, Yao, Duncan in a way, Howard,- CP3, Nash,Kidd
10s- lets just wait and see.

Got what you are saying, but James Worthy was a small forward and Drex was a wing player. Had to be "that guy" before someone else was rude about it. Sorry. ;-)

DreamShaker
08-17-2012, 11:46 AM
Also, guys are paid big money based on potential, and not actually real skill, so players are less inclined to work. Sometimes guys like Howard, Chandler, and Bynum become studs, but even all of those guys have been accused of not pushing themselves all that hard. Hasheem Thabeet is a prime example. Was he EVER a good basketball player? He could block shots, but got DOMINATED by D-Blaire in college. He was the number 2 pick in the draft, and has had a TERRIBLE nba career. NBA teams reward upside more than they do skill, and guys who stay in college are looked down upon.

DODGERS&LAKERS
08-17-2012, 11:54 AM
Its because our Generation centers' are actually Power forwards and small forwards. Kevin Durant came into the league at 6'9 215 lbs. Same exact size and weight of Bill Russell in his playing days. The game has changed. Dirk is just as big height and weight wise as all the centers of the 90's sans Shaq. Lebron is the same size as Karl Malone. Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan and Pau would not have the option to be "power forwards" if they played from the 50's through the 90's. There is no way they could tell the coach "I know I'm the biggest guy on the team but I would like to play a littler further from the basket" They are considered centers in any other era besides this one.

So I would not say the big men of today suck. I would just say they have more skills than the guys who were the same exact size in the past. Because they can put the ball on the floor, shoot from outside 5 feet, spread the floor, and create shots by being able to pass like no big men could from the 50's through the 90's

effen5
08-17-2012, 12:23 PM
I think one of the biggest reasons that centers these days aren't as good offensively as centers in the past is because of the "3 seconds with your back to the basket" rule. They introduced this rule between 10-15 years ago (I forget which season), and since then post players have become a rarity indeed. Guys like Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, they all used to play with their back to the basket and would take their time, backing up to get position. Sometimes they had the ball for 5 or 6 secons before they got to the spot they wanted, and the league thought this slowed the game down, so they introduced the 'back to the basket' rule to spead things up. Since then, PFs and Cs have had to adjust their games. You have to be quick with your back to the basket, or you'll need range to score. That is why Tim Duncan and Garnett are so great, because they have range and don't depend on back-to-the-basket play to score.

That is the reason there aren't as many centers scoring like the used to. A lot of big men just never develop much of a jumper and so they aren't as big a part of the offence. But another reason is because we had been spoiled. I mean, come on, a league featuring Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, , Mutumbo and Shaq all at the same time in their primes? We are never going to see such depth at the center position ever again, so everything after will pale in comparison.

But there are still some good centers in the league, but lets be honest, even the best center today (Howard) likely wouldn't even be considered in the top five in the mid 90's. He would have been behind; Hakeem, Robison, Mourning Shaq and Ewing. He would have had a hard time making the all-star team.

With the 3 second implementation, wouldn't this show what Michael Jordan did even more impressive? He got to the rim at will whether there was a big guy camping in the lane or not.

Sactown
08-17-2012, 12:55 PM
DeMarcus Cousins has GOAT written all over him and is fundamentally sound!

Raph12
08-17-2012, 01:56 PM
The NBA is becoming more of a perimeter-oriented game; bigs still have to be fed by the wing players and they don't get nearly as much touches as they used to. The NBA has become a pnr and faceup game, guys don't get the ball in the post as much nor do they practise the fundamentals as much growing up like they used to... Doesn't help that most coaches have their bigs just blocking, rebounding and dunking in highschool/college, so they're completely raw coming into the league.

Blitzbolt
08-17-2012, 03:19 PM
Marc Gasol is pretty much all Fundamentals.