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View Full Version : First Take G.O.A.T Debate.



esb
08-15-2012, 07:38 PM
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/index?page=firsttake


Who played against tougher opponents.

Some of MJ's opponents

Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond
Latrell Sprewell
Joe Dumars
Steve Smith
John Starks
Jeff Hornacek
Dan Majerle
Kendall Gill
Hersey Hawkins
Jimmy Jackson
Isaiah Rider
Anfernee Harderway (combo)
Reggie Lewis and Drazen Petrovic (passed away)

Some of Lebron's oppenents

Durant
Melo
Pierce
Gay
Deng
Iguodala
Hedo Turkoglu
Granger
G.Wallace
S.Marion
Josh Smith (combo)
Lamar Odom (combo)

3's set u free
08-15-2012, 07:43 PM
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/index?page=firsttake


Who played against tougher opponents.

Some of MJ's opponents

Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond
Latrell Sprewell
Joe Dumars
Steve Smith
John Starks
Jeff Hornacek
Dan Majerle
Kendall Gill
Hersey Hawkins
Jimmy Jackson
Isaiah Rider
Anfernee Harderway (combo)
Reggie Lewis and Drazen Petrovic (passed away)

Some of Lebrons oppenents

Durant
Melo
Pierce
Gay
Deng
Iguodala
Hedo Turkoglu
Granger
G.Wallace
S.Marion
Josh Smith (combo)
Lamar Odom (combo)

First off, you cant even compare Jordan to Lebron at this point. Lebron still has an incomplete game. Limited post game, non-existant mid range game, and spotty 3 point shooting (although Jordan was spotty as well). Basically Lebron is a hybrid between Jordan and Shaq in terms of how he scores. His best game is just putting his head down and going to the rack. That is not how Jordan played.

The argument about eras is solid as the 90's to me was as watered down as they come. Look at his competition, Joe Dumars was his toughest defender he would have no chance against Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, etc. The best player to match up with Jordan was on his own team, Pippen. So while Jordan is the greatest of all time he had some very favorable matchups and had the absolute perfect sidekick.

Aust
08-15-2012, 07:48 PM
I myself am wondering about the talent level comparison in the NBA:

80's vs 90's vs 2000's-present

Thread and poll worthy?

MackSnackWrap
08-15-2012, 07:53 PM
Artest should also be added to the list

StarvingKnick22
08-15-2012, 07:59 PM
Brian Scalabrine and its not even a contest. Every team he was on either went to the Finals or Conference Finals. Also you ever realize how much he looks like Chuck Norris???

But all kidding aside, Lebron had more of the Competition, but MJ proved himself more. I may be making a mistake, but did the op forget Kobe?

Lakerhead4ever
08-15-2012, 08:00 PM
Lebron career Is still going. Close thread.

Also Jordan and Lebron are two different players. A better comparison would be mj and Kobe.

Gritz
08-15-2012, 08:09 PM
He went against better competition

IndyRealist
08-15-2012, 08:12 PM
In '92 Clyde Drexler finished #2 in MVP voting behind MJ and ahead of HOF'ers Barkley, Hakeem, Ewing, Stockton and Malone, Payton, Kemp, etc. Drexler was no slouch, and the only reason he's not more widely regarded is because he was overshadowed by MJ.

Eddie Jones was one of my favorite SG's and headlined the only era I was a fan of the Lakers. There was an appreciation thread not too long ago. Guy was a beast.

And if we're going to include Josh Smith as a direct opponent of Lebron, then we really need to include Bird and Magic as direct opponents of MJ.

And that doesn't even include some of the best shooters of all time in Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, and Mark Price.

I hate to be the one to say it but with Deng, Gay, Wallace, Granger and Turkoglu, outside of their respective fanbases no one's going to remember those guys 20 years from now. None of them are even sniffing the HOF. But we all remember John Starks, Steve Smith, and Thunder Dan Marjerle.

Ezio
08-15-2012, 08:18 PM
How many of MJ's opponents were in their respective prime, how many of Lebron's opponents were in their primes?

Heediot
08-15-2012, 08:18 PM
The argument about eras is solid as the 90's to me was as watered down as they come. Look at his competition, Joe Dumars was his toughest defender he would have no chance against Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, etc. The best player to match up with Jordan was on his own team, Pippen. So while Jordan is the greatest of all time he had some very favorable matchups and had the absolute perfect sidekick.

Wow, Lebron is not a 2 guard. Kobe is an over-rated defender who makes all d teams on rep. He's not great just above average in his prime. Wade is a good defender as well. Durant, same with LeBron a 3. Even so, Durant is solid at best as a defender.

If you want to put in the 3 position, Derrick McKey, Anthony Mason, Rodman (Detroit days), Byron Russell, were good-great defenders.

JordansBulls
08-15-2012, 08:24 PM
ABC needs to replace JVG and Mike Breen with Stephen A. Smith and Skip Bayless.:clap:

naps
08-15-2012, 08:29 PM
This debate needs to take place 8-10 years from now. We'll have a better picture of LeBron's career by then. If it's just talent-wise then I understand but accomplishment-wise LeBron is nowhere near Jordan yet. Not fair to LeBron to put his name on this debate when he's only 27.

BKLYNpigeon
08-15-2012, 08:42 PM
lebron can be better then MJ, but never Greater.

IndyRealist
08-15-2012, 08:48 PM
This debate needs to take place 8-10 years from now. We'll have a better picture of LeBron's career by then. If it's just talent-wise then I understand but accomplishment-wise LeBron is nowhere near Jordan yet. Not fair to LeBron to put his name on this debate when he's only 27.

ESPN put Lebron in this debate when he was 18.

Aust
08-15-2012, 08:58 PM
ESPN put Lebron in this debate when he was 18.

:facepalm:
I know, it was disrespectful to basketball

Hellcrooner
08-15-2012, 09:22 PM
John Salley just said that for him Magic 1st Bird 2nd, Kareem 3rd, Jordan 4th.

He played against all of them in their Primes except kareem that was late prime btw :D

Becks2307
08-15-2012, 09:24 PM
Jordan made is competition look like it sucked I have no doubt he would have done the same thing in this era as well.

Do people realize that Jordan basically kept a whole generation of stars from winning rings?

Barkley, Stockton, Payton, Kemp, Malone, Drexler, Ewing, etc etc etc

Max Power
08-15-2012, 09:25 PM
John Salley is an attention starved clown that hosts reality shows.

effen5
08-15-2012, 09:45 PM
Jordan made is competition look like it sucked I have no doubt he would have done the same thing in this era as well.

Do people realize that Jordan basically kept a whole generation of stars from winning rings?

Barkley, Stockton, Payton, Kemp, Malone, Drexler, Ewing, etc etc etc


Funny you mention Drex, because the only rings he and Hakeem won were seasons Jordan didn't play in (or the full season).

IndyRealist
08-15-2012, 09:53 PM
Funny you mention Drex, because the only rings he and Hakeem won were seasons Jordan didn't play in (or the full season).

Exactly, when Jordan hit his prime he shut out the competition.

A 3peat is extremely hard. To do it twice in one player's career is astounding.

3's set u free
08-16-2012, 12:09 AM
Wow, Lebron is not a 2 guard. Kobe is an over-rated defender who makes all d teams on rep. He's not great just above average in his prime. Wade is a good defender as well. Durant, same with LeBron a 3. Even so, Durant is solid at best as a defender.

If you want to put in the 3 position, Derrick McKey, Anthony Mason, Rodman (Detroit days), Byron Russell, were good-great defenders.

Lebron and Durant are 3's but handle the ball quite a bit as well as can easily defend 2's better than they can 4's. Both Lebron and Durant would match up against Kobe late in games.

Haha, hilarious your list of players. MASON IS A PF and couldnt sniff guarding any of the guys I mentioned and Rodman was versitale but a PF and couldnt guard SG's. Bryan Russell and Derrick McKey were decent but cant compete with the atheticism of todays players.

Losoway
08-16-2012, 12:14 AM
i feel lebron is better

Losoway
08-16-2012, 12:14 AM
Lebron and Durant are 3's but handle the ball quite a bit as well as can easily defend 2's better than they can 4's. Both Lebron and Durant would match up against Kobe late in games.

Haha, hilarious your list of players. MASON IS A PF and couldnt sniff guarding any of the guys I mentioned and Rodman was versitale but a PF and couldnt guard SG's. Bryan Russell and Derrick McKey were decent but cant compete with the atheticism of todays players.

lebron can play any position from the 1-4

his rookie year he was a point guard

Becks2307
08-16-2012, 12:17 AM
Funny you mention Drex, because the only rings he and Hakeem won were seasons Jordan didn't play in (or the full season).

Lol yeah i messed up there, but it kinda proved my point anyway lol

Longhornfan1234
08-16-2012, 12:23 AM
LeBron is not there yet. At the end of his career he will be a top 5 player. Right now he's the 14th best player of all-time...IMO


1. MJ

2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Hakeem
10. Duncan
11. Moses
12. West
13. Big O
14. LeBron



LeBron's career is far from over.

Baller1
08-16-2012, 12:23 AM
First off, you cant even compare Jordan to Lebron at this point. Lebron still has an incomplete game. Limited post game, non-existant mid range game, and spotty 3 point shooting (although Jordan was spotty as well). Basically Lebron is a hybrid between Jordan and Shaq in terms of how he scores. His best game is just putting his head down and going to the rack. That is not how Jordan played.

The argument about eras is solid as the 90's to me was as watered down as they come. Look at his competition, Joe Dumars was his toughest defender he would have no chance against Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, etc. The best player to match up with Jordan was on his own team, Pippen. So while Jordan is the greatest of all time he had some very favorable matchups and had the absolute perfect sidekick.

Lebron has one of the best midrange games in the game...

*Silver&Black*
08-16-2012, 12:29 AM
For a second I thought this would be an actual good debate between Jordan/Kobe not this market shoving of Lebron vs Jordan ever since James was coming out of high school. Just please let it go sports writers and fans.

b@llhog24
08-16-2012, 12:47 AM
LeBron is not there yet. At the end of his career he will be a top 5 player. Right now he's the 14th best player of all-time...IMO


1. MJ

2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Hakeem
10. Duncan
11. Moses
12. West
13. Big O
14. LeBron



LeBron's career is far from over.

You forgot Wade.

goose14741
08-16-2012, 01:22 AM
Talentwise? Lebron is 1/8th of jordan. Effectiveness? Lebron might be better due to size. Noone had the skill set jordan had. His touch and grace will never be copied again. Kobe is the only one to come close and he stole all of jordans footwork. In my mind, from a scorers standpoint, kobe and jordan are the only two players who have mastered the game. Not saying they are the top 2, but all around mastery they are. Seeing what both can do in the 4th quarter is inhuman. Legendary is.a good fit. Lebron is finally starting to show signs of it, but until he consistently does, u cant throw him in the mix just yet

Hellcrooner
08-16-2012, 01:27 AM
Since comparing oranges to apples is ridiculous.

Pg:1Magic 2Stockton 3Kidd 4 Cousy 5 Nash 6 Thomas 7 Frazier 8 Archibald 9 Payton 10 C Paul
Sg:1 Mj 2 Oscar 3 Kobe 4 West 5 Havlicek 6 R Barry 7 Gervin 8 E Monroe 9 Hal Greer 10 Wade
Sf: 1 Bird 2 Lebron 3 Dr J 4 Baylor 5 Drexler 6 worhty 7 Wilkins 8 Pippen 9 Sam Jones 10 Rodman
Pf: 1 Duncan 2 Mchale 3 K malone 4 Pettit 5 C Barkley 6 Dirk 7 Pau 8 Webber 9 hayes 10 Thurmond
C: 1 Kareem 2 Wilt 3 Russell 4 Hakeem 5 Mikan 6 Shaq 7 Moses malone 8 Robinson 9 Reed 10 Gilmore

Longhornfan1234
08-16-2012, 10:23 AM
You forgot Wade.

Fringe top 50 player.

NYKalltheway
08-16-2012, 10:46 AM
John Salley just said that for him Magic 1st Bird 2nd, Kareem 3rd, Jordan 4th.

He played against all of them in their Primes except kareem that was late prime btw :D

and also played for Panathinaikos :cool:

esb
08-16-2012, 01:52 PM
Since comparing oranges to apples is ridiculous.

Pg:1Magic 2Stockton 3Kidd 4 Cousy 5 Nash 6 Thomas 7 Frazier 8 Archibald 9 Payton 10 C Paul
Sg:1 Mj 2 Oscar 3 Kobe 4 West 5 Havlicek 6 R Barry 7 Gervin 8 E Monroe 9 Hal Greer 10 Wade
Sf: 1 Bird 2 Lebron 3 Dr J 4 Baylor 5 Drexler 6 worhty 7 Wilkins 8 Pippen 9 Sam Jones 10 Rodman
Pf: 1 Duncan 2 Mchale 3 K malone 4 Pettit 5 C Barkley 6 Dirk 7 Pau 8 Webber 9 hayes 10 Thurmond
C: 1 Kareem 2 Wilt 3 Russell 4 Hakeem 5 Mikan 6 Shaq 7 Moses malone 8 Robinson 9 Reed 10 Gilmore

I actually think your group #7(fraizer,gervin,wilkins,dirk,moses) would beat your #1
And why isn't penny harderway(my favorite player) on this list?

Pierzynski4Prez
08-16-2012, 02:11 PM
I actually think your group #7(fraizer,gervin,wilkins,dirk,moses) would beat your #1
And why isn't penny harderway(my favorite player) on this list?

Because he only played for about half his career.

WhyEvenBother
08-16-2012, 02:20 PM
gotta list wally z when your talkin about GOATS. show some respect

Hellcrooner
08-16-2012, 02:21 PM
I actually think your group #7(fraizer,gervin,wilkins,dirk,moses) would beat your #1
And why isn't penny harderway(my favorite player) on this list?

For the same reason, walton, bernard king or grant hill arent.

esb
08-16-2012, 08:18 PM
For the same reason, walton, bernard king or grant hill arent.

They're not on the G.O.A.T.A.P (greatest of all time after penny) level.

DR_1
08-16-2012, 08:29 PM
Fringe top 50 player.

Lol Wade is barely top 100

Hellcrooner
08-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Lol Wade is barely top 100

no.
at worst he is in the 60-70range.

and i would put him in the 50-60 range.

Raph12
08-16-2012, 09:53 PM
It's not close... Not yet anyways.

b@llhog24
08-16-2012, 11:08 PM
Wade is closer to top 20-30. His peak/prime can dance with just about anyone's own. But, longevity doesn't look like it's on his side at the moment.

KB24PG16
08-17-2012, 12:49 AM
John Salley just said that for him Magic 1st Bird 2nd, Kareem 3rd, Jordan 4th.

He played against all of them in their Primes except kareem that was late prime btw :D

lol hes a bigger laker homer than most fans on psd

Rockwilderz
08-17-2012, 01:14 AM
Its so funny how people always say that LBJ has the advantage because of his size.

The only reason why you all think that LBJ is huge .. only because there's not much size in the league right now.

Stop comparing the players Jordan and LBJ played against at their position.

Because its not the SG that Jordan had to face at his time. Its the BIGS that pounded him inside every time he drives to the basket with no "Illegal defense" yet at the time.

LBJ doesn't have to worry about that now.. Can you picture Lebron James driving to the basket with the likes of Rodman, Oakley, Ewing, Shaq, Barkley , Laimbeer waiting for him underneath the basket?.. Will he still be able to dominate the game as much as he dominates it right now?

DreamShaker
08-17-2012, 01:27 AM
Its so funny how people always say that LBJ has the advantage because of his size.

The only reason why you all think that LBJ is huge .. only because there's not much size in the league right now.

Stop comparing the players Jordan and LBJ played against at their position.

Because its not the SG that Jordan had to face at his time. Its the BIGS that pounded him inside every time he drives to the basket with no "Illegal defense" yet at the time.

LBJ doesn't have to worry about that now.. Can you picture Lebron James driving to the basket with the likes of Rodman, Oakley, Ewing, Shaq, Barkley , Laimbeer waiting for him underneath the basket?.. Will he still be able to dominate the game as much as he dominates it right now?

I was thinking the same thing. Not to mention Hakeem, Robinson, Eaton, Dikembe...it is not even close to where it is at today. We just had Roy Hibbert as an All-Star and Tyson Chandler as the starting center for team USA. I am not trying to discredit Lebron, but it is a solid factor in the debate.

DreamShaker
08-17-2012, 01:32 AM
John Salley just said that for him Magic 1st Bird 2nd, Kareem 3rd, Jordan 4th.

He played against all of them in their Primes except kareem that was late prime btw :D

He also implied Kevin Mchale, Isaiah, and Kobe were better. MJ musta had an affair with his wife/gf/mistress or something.

Cal827
08-17-2012, 01:45 AM
Fringe top 50 player.

:laugh: Wow, you gave Wade SOME credit... maybe, you aren't as much of a hater as I once thought :D