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View Full Version : Why, when people speak of wasted potential, do people bring up VC?



Chronz
08-13-2012, 06:41 PM
Why do guys who put in the work to become superstars get trashed, but guys of similar body type and athleticism who didnt even last in the NBA get no mentioning?

Like you rarely see Eddie Robinson, Qyntel Woods get dissed for not making use of their god given abilities. Hell even Gerald Green has all the physical tools and some semblance of skill to make it big, but he never improved his ball handling to get to that level.

Guys like VC dont get to where they are without putting in some serious work, yet they epitomize untapped potential in the minds of the (haters) fan.

Is it soo hard to respect what these guys have done? Even if there is truth to the idea that these players grew complacent, there are many more examples of players who didnt even come close to reaching their potential that I dont see the point in labeling those who atleast tapped the surface of that potential as the guys who "Wasted their talent". To me, lots of guys waste their talent, but if you make it to the top of the NBA, then you shouldnt be discredited with the faulty logic of, "you shouldve done more".

That expression holds true for ANYONE. Literally EVERYONE could have done more with their talent. Larry Bird could have done more with his abilities, yet no one mentions him as an underachiever. Wilt, Russ, Julius, Hayes, Chuck .. etc... the list is endless. Why does VC stand out?

ThuglifeJ
08-13-2012, 06:51 PM
wow a non VC fan actually feels this way? lol

idk I'd say ppl just want more and more and more. VC peaked right away and thats why he gets less respect than he deserves I'd say..like you never saw a progression you should saw an explosion on the scene and then he continued that for 10 year or so.


I will never understand why he'll never get that recognition of what he did for the league..like wheres Vince's documenatary videos on ESPN? VC to me was like comparable to an alien coming from outerspace he was surreal..

sorry to sound like a ***** but Lebron/Griffin have had 30/30s before they were even proven..



****in media controls so much of what we'll see/know/remember in sports...UNFAIR

Chronz
08-13-2012, 06:55 PM
Funny that your the first to post in here, I saw your sig and I felt compelled to make this thread.


But I am a VC fan, one of my first passwords for my online bank had VC15 on it. Im not a HUGE fan like I know many are but I appreciate the excitement he brought to the game. His skill level and his talent combined are under appreciated. I wonder sometimes tho, why he didnt get more accolades.

Do you think he should have made more All-NBA teams?

b@llhog24
08-13-2012, 07:02 PM
Sustained dominance; and part of it was because he made it look too easy, so when he was having a good game, people would say "he tried" and when he didn't play up to par and had a bad game "Vince lacks effort" or he wasn't a "winner." I loved Vincesanity man, dude was unreal.

ThuglifeJ
08-13-2012, 08:06 PM
@chronz: as a VC fan i do clearly remember the years I felt VC was robbed of some all NBA teams..but he was in his prime when Kobe, AI, Pierce, Tmac, Finley, Allen, Sprewell, Ginobli, Francis, etc wings were all in their primes...Reggie Miller and MJ were playing a couple years too

@ballhog: That actually does make a lot of sense I never really realized that.


-one depressing thing for me was the other day the NBA got brought up with some of my students.. (15 year olds). I couldnt help but chime in and they were talkin about dunking and of course I brought Vince into discussion.
they had no idea who Vince Carter was.



that is what I'm saying. When I was young growing up I knew everything about MJ, Pippen, Stockton, Malone, Penny..Dr J...Bird..Dominique...whomever was in the last generation...even guys like Stackhouse whoever. They always would be talked about during commentary like "Oh Pippen, bla bla bla, legend" and so I'd look him up. When I watch Mavs games the best thing I'll ever hear is "Carter with the nice lay in. Vintage."

xxplayerxx23
08-13-2012, 08:36 PM
I love VC. I think he had the talent to be one of the best to play this game. IMO he got lazy but either way he was a fantastic player.

BradHolt4CYoung
08-13-2012, 08:49 PM
VC is the man...I didn't know people thought about him as a under performing player?

As a Nets fan watching him play just gave me so much excitement. He was such a brilliant scorer.

Cal827
08-13-2012, 09:01 PM
When Vince played his last year in Toronto, he really played half-assed. On top of that, when he was traded to NJ, he said that he didn't always give it his all when he was a Raptor. Now it may hold true that many players half-*** it when they are unhappy, it is really disappointing hearing that from a guy who at one point was a top 5-10 player in the league. He also started off so strongly in his rookie years. If he continued to try and improve after his peak year in Toronto, he would likely have held the #1 SG spot for a while. He had the athleticism, was developing his shot/range, and was slightly improving as a defender.

He did well in NJ, but unfortunately for him, those teams were pretty flat after him, Kidd and Jefferson.

He had the potential to be the next face of the NBA (didn't help he was also compared to Jordan multiple times), but his work ethic held him back from true glory.

JasonJohnHorn
08-13-2012, 09:05 PM
VC could have been in the conversation with Jordon if he had the drive and work ethic Jordan and Kobe had.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that he intentionally tanked his performance to get traded, and never returned to the same level of play that he showed the potential for. Let's face it, Carter could have been something very special. A guy like Woods, or Robinson could have been quality starters in the league, sure, but Carter could have been something so much more. Same with Derrick Coleman. That guy could have been the most dominant PF of all time if he put the kind of work into his game that Karl Malone put in.

I see what you are saying, but Carter's level of talent is pretty high and I think fans were hoping to see him reach that potential. Anybody who is in the NBA obviously puts a lot of work into their game, but some put more than others. Carter didn't. Neither did Coleman, and both could have been considered all-time greats had they had better work ethic and drive.

Chronz
08-13-2012, 09:07 PM
I see what you are saying, but Carter's level of talent is pretty high and I think fans were hoping to see him reach that potential. Anybody who is in the NBA obviously puts a lot of work into their game, but some put more than others. Carter didn't. Neither did Coleman, and both could have been considered all-time greats had they had better work ethic and drive.
I dont get this part. VC did put in work, if he didnt he would have been like Gerald Green, just another athletic swingman who can shoot some.

Kashmir13579
08-13-2012, 09:07 PM
Quentell Woods... I nearly lost it when i read that.

netsgiantsyanks
08-13-2012, 09:07 PM
when VC lost his athleticism, he reverted to his shot. the guy could shoot from 30 feet with no problem. but yeah, he could have done much more, but i appreciate him for what he did with jersey.

b@llhog24
08-13-2012, 10:29 PM
Always could remember when VC was on the Magic and an announcer/analyst said something along the lines of "Why is it that Vince Carter is so scrutinized? It's almost like people seem personally invested in his failures whenever he doesn't dominate a game." It's not verbatim by any means though. I've seen people say that Kobe is better than Shaq (not even close) because Kobe got more out of his God-given abilities than Shaq ever did.

DoMeFavors
08-13-2012, 10:33 PM
VC never had the heart, he would miss games on purpose to take time off. Never cared about advancing in the playoffs. But it is what it is.

xxplayerxx23
08-13-2012, 10:35 PM
VC never had the heart, he would miss games on purpose to take time off. Never cared about advancing in the playoffs. But it is what it is.

I disagree, he wanted a championship.

StarvingKnick22
08-13-2012, 10:36 PM
if he got to stay with the nets then contenders they would be...

StarvingKnick22
08-13-2012, 10:44 PM
all he needed to do was stay with t-Mac ont the raptors or stay with the nets. if he did we really wouldnt have this conversation.

gattaca
08-13-2012, 10:50 PM
when Vince Carter wanted to be traded from the Raptors, he stopped playing hard. In the few weeks before the trade for the Williams sisters, his productivity in nearly every stat column fell by 50%.
I still wonder what would have happened if he had waited for Bosh to develop.
I understand why he wanted to leave Toronto, but the way he did it was the way of the loser. I've never had any respect for him since

gattaca
08-13-2012, 10:51 PM
all he needed to do was stay with t-Mac ont the raptors or stay with the nets. if he did we really wouldnt have this conversation.

it was TMAC that left.
If he had stayed with Bosh.... who knows.

BKLYNpigeon
08-13-2012, 11:03 PM
the same thing is said about Baron Davis and Lamar Odom.

Coaches, Players, and peers said that they had all the potential in the world. Baron Davis had the perfect size and skills to be an elite PG, but injuries and other interests held him back. same thing was said about Odom.

StinkEye
08-13-2012, 11:08 PM
Personally, VC was probably the most frustrating player for me. At his peak, he was up there with Kobe as the best wing in the league, but he didn't seem to have the same passion for the game as him. VC frustrates me more because of what he could have been. All the talent in the world, all the athleticism in the world, this man had all the makings to be an all-timer. Hearing reports of him not working on his game in the off season, looking steadily more out of shape year after year... it's just frustrating.

Aside from his lack of work ethic, there was the way he ended things in Toronto. I wanted to headbutt the TV watching him not try on defence, taking ill-advised pull-up 3s, and just his whole poor attitude in general.

Sure he'll be remembered for all of the crazy dunks, in-game highlights, how he was on top of the basketball world during the Athens Olympics, but what from there? He was a helluva player when he was at his best, but it's the player he could have been that causes us to bring him up.

mdm692
08-13-2012, 11:15 PM
I wish he woukd of played with the suns during the SSOL era along Nash and Stat. Something like Nash/VC/Qrich/???/Stat :drool:

knickfan33
08-13-2012, 11:20 PM
because being a good showman is not the same as being a good player.

ThuglifeJ
08-14-2012, 12:40 AM
Ppl always say that. 'he didnt have same passion as Kobe'. Are you Vince Carter? can you really know how he feels?

I refuse to believe hes not passionate about basketball..any Nets fan will tell you in 09 he was a passionate leader of a Nets roster picked to finish dead last..

Have Vince get Shaq instead of Kobe/Dwade and this topic wont exist. EVERYONE got help...everyone but friggen VC and kinda Tmac/AI. Kobe? gets Shaq, Pau.. Pierce? KG, Allen. Wade? Shaq, Lebron.

Ballistix
08-14-2012, 01:02 AM
Who the **** is VC? Is it that difficult to spell out the guys name so one doesn't have to read 20 posts before knowing who you're talking about. SMH!

smith&wesson
08-14-2012, 01:04 AM
i remember when i was younger i followed one of his programs to increase my verticle and it really worked. .

i loved the guy, he put the raptors on the map.. soo many what ifs with him. its too bad he and tmac left toronto on a bad note they could have won ships there together..

whitemamba33
08-14-2012, 01:12 AM
It's the hype machine at work.

jp611
08-14-2012, 01:22 AM
Who the **** is VC? Is it that difficult to spell out the guys name so one doesn't have to read 20 posts before knowing who you're talking about. SMH!

Do you really not know who VC is :laugh:

DreamShaker
08-14-2012, 01:24 AM
That whole generation of players are really hated on. Iverson, T-Mac, VC, Marbury, Francis ect. It was a time when people viewed the post-Jordan guys as poison to the game of basketball. Many reasons could be thrown out there, but I don't really know. Some of it was everyone being unfairly compared to MJ. Some of it was the Hip Hop image being looked down upon. For Carter, specifically, it was the "he gave up on Toronto" perception. Also people mock him for being "soft". I have heard many claims that he faked or milked injuries, but have really never seen it. Maybe he will be appreciated more after he retires? That is usually how it goes.

kobe4thewinbang
08-14-2012, 01:25 AM
People bash Vinsanity because he's always resorted to chucking up 3's when he knows he could drive to the rim like LeBron and be a 100% more effective player by doing so. Couple that with the lack of passion compared to other players, and the bashing is understood.

Losoway
08-14-2012, 01:28 AM
vince carter was just exciting to watch

he didnt care about championships

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-14-2012, 01:55 AM
That 76ers-Raptors series in 2001, some of the most exciting basketball games ever. VC was the real deal, never had a great team around him tho.

NoahH
08-14-2012, 02:04 AM
Vince Carter gave up on his teams a few times tbh (ex. 2004-05 season in Toronto. 30mpg 15ppg). He put up huge stats but just was never in a scenario to win. Can't fault him for that..

Steelers23_06
08-14-2012, 02:31 AM
i dont think he was wasted. i just think his expectations over exceeded his skill-set. i feel like a waste is someone who just doesnt care at all. i mean not every player brings that intensity every night like kobe lebron durant drose etc but thats what makes them great you cant teach that. when i think of wasted i think of players like a.i.(practice?!) antoine walker (mcdonalds & casinos) ron artest (malice right before his peak) because they all wasted a god given talent that could have boosted them to the next level. but i think vince accomplished a lot and gets credit for it.

averaged 20+ 10 out of 11 straight seasons straight season, 8 time all-star, a couple 50 point games, had a bunch of raptors records til bosh broke em, still has numerous nets records, ROY, gold medalist

and thats w/o mentioning his many dunking accomplishments both in game and competition. imo thats the resume of a HOFer. idk about you guys but if your a 90s baby like me and your kid asks about great dunks or dunkers i know ima hop on the internet and find this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-8NXsn3q-Q

spurs4#5
08-14-2012, 02:38 AM
wow a non VC fan actually feels this way? lol

idk I'd say ppl just want more and more and more. VC peaked right away and thats why he gets less respect than he deserves I'd say..like you never saw a progression you should saw an explosion on the scene and then he continued that for 10 year or so.


I will never understand why he'll never get that recognition of what he did for the league..like wheres Vince's documenatary videos on ESPN? VC to me was like comparable to an alien coming from outerspace he was surreal..

sorry to sound like a ***** but Lebron/Griffin have had 30/30s before they were even proven..



****in media controls so much of what we'll see/know/remember in sports...UNFAIR

what's really crazy...these guys have a 30/30 before Tim Duncan

ThuglifeJ
08-14-2012, 03:16 AM
haha ya thats pretty bad.

all this talk got me on youtube. and i found this just posted the other day..like where was the hype for some of these 'legacy dunks'.. I KNOW Jordan/Nique were gettin there own sportscenter episodes dedicated if they made a single dunk at age 35..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjdYfYZthtw&list=UUUrLr7YtzUqTlTI1Q8hgqnA&index=1&feature=plcp

JasonJohnHorn
08-14-2012, 07:16 AM
I refuse to believe hes not passionate about basketball..any Nets fan will tell you in 09 he was a passionate leader of a Nets roster picked to finish dead last...

Kidd was the leader of that team. If you watch games, it's Kidd that getting jawing in Carter's ear about huslting back on defence. I even remember, it was either Kidd or Carter that mentioned in, that Kidd would get on him and put a fire under his @$$. that was the season that the Cavs and the Nets were running for the 8th and final playoff spot and the Nets went on a crazy winning streak to make it into the playoffs. This is very telling of Vince. They were behind in the standings and Kidd had to start jawing at him about hustling on defence and such. If Carter was a leader, he would have been the one getting on the other palyers, not the one who needed somebody to get on him.

I don't deny that Carter worked hard. Anybody who makes it to the NBA works hard. Some have to work harder than others because they don't have the same gifts as other players. And yes, nobody can get into Vince's mind and say one way or the other if he has passion for the game, the kind of passion that makes you a special player like Kobe or Jordan, but as a fan, watching the games, and hearing what he says and what is said of him by other players, it looks like, from the outside, he would give up before the game was over. He'd give up on a season before it was over, and it was only when he had people to get on his @$$ that he was motivated enough to put out the effort.

All that said, the one thing that is lacking in his game is defence. Defence is the one thing that ANYBODY IN THE LEAGUE CAN DO WELL IF THEY PUT THE WORK INTO IT!!! ANYBODY CAN BE A GREAT DEFENDER! Defence is about work ethic. Just like rebounding for front court players. You either put the effort in, or you don't, and we all know Vince simply did not put the effort in on defence. He just didn't. Carter has never been the guy to put in the extra hustle for a loose ball, or rush over to help on defence. You watch him play and those are just things you do not see in his game. If Carter is ont he floor and his team is down by 10 with three minutes to go, he has already checked out of the game. That's what I've seen in him on the floor. And this is why it's frustrating, because he really could have been a top 5 shooting guard all time, and he's likely not even in the top 20 SGs all time now.

Rentzias
08-14-2012, 10:00 AM
I dont get this part. VC did put in work, if he didnt he would have been like Gerald Green, just another athletic swingman who can shoot some.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1962014


TORONTO -- Vince Carter's former teammates were dismayed Friday after hearing him admit he didn't always try his hardest when he played for the Toronto Raptors.

In an interview broadcast Thursday on TNT, network analyst John Thompson asked Carter if he pushed himself as hard as he should have in Toronto.

"In years past, no," said Carter, acquired by the New Jersey Nets on Dec 17. "I was fortunate to have the talent ... you get spoiled when you're able to do a lot of things. You see that you don't have to work at it.

"Now, with the all the injuries, I have to work harder. I'm a little hungrier. Getting a fresh start has made me want to attack the basket."

Many have questioned Carter's dedication, his commitment to offseason conditioning and his desire to improve, but some where were surprised to hear Carter acknowledge it.

"It's a reflection on him and his character," Raptors guard Rafer Alston said. "Is he a guy that you can go to war with night in and night out? That's what a lot of people are going to be questioning."

Alston also suggested that Carter cost the Raptors games with his lack of effort.

"It hurts," Alston said. "I don't know if a player who is considered an All-Star and has so many fan votes going into All-Star week wants to have that on his rap sheet."

Carter has played well since being traded for Alonzo Mourning, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams and two first-round draft picks. He is averaging 22.5 points in 40.3 minutes with New Jersey, compared to 15.9 points in 30.4 minutes with the Raptors.

Toronto guard Morris Peterson was shocked when he watched the interview on television.

"It caught me off guard, being a professional player that's something I always pride myself on," Peterson said. "I can sleep better at night knowing I give it everything I can."

"You could tell he wasn't playing his best," Peterson said.

Toronto coach Sam Mitchell didn't want to talk about Carter.

"That's between Vince and his conscience," Mitchell said.

StinkEye
08-14-2012, 10:25 AM
^ that article sums up the paragraph that I wrote.

joeystats
08-14-2012, 10:37 AM
Guys that athletic have no excuse not to play defense

C_Mund
08-14-2012, 11:48 AM
Unlike Kobe, Jordan, those kinds of players, you'd see flashes of that fire but it would be there one possession and gone the next. it's like he sometimes wanted to win and sometimes he was thinking about what he was going to have for dinner. The great players go after it EVERY trip down the floor in either direction. It's not like it was bad bball, but it just wasn't enough to put him on the level of the all-time greats. If he had that desire (...and some people say "how do you know he didn't".... just watch him play game in and out. He didn't) to be the greatest there was nothing stopping him from putting himself in the same breath as Jordan, Kobe, West, the best sg's of all-time. Still a lock for HOF in my books, and I don't like the guy for what he did the Raps but I'm over it now.

C_Mund
08-14-2012, 11:52 AM
Duplicate sorry

Chronz
08-14-2012, 12:27 PM
People bash Vinsanity because he's always resorted to chucking up 3's when he knows he could drive to the rim like LeBron and be a 100% more effective player by doing so. Couple that with the lack of passion compared to other players, and the bashing is understood.
Too much hyperbole for my liking, I get what your trying to say but how do you know much passion he had, according to AI he had great passion, and early in his career they were saying quite the opposite.
Compared to everyone who ever played lots of players didnt reach their potential, why hate on the guy who put in enough work to become one of the games best and most exciting players?

Is it because they so badly wanted him to become the next MJ? Is it because he forced his way out of Toronto by playing lazy?



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1962014
Doesnt answer anything. You dont get as good as he got without putting in work, or else he would have amounted to another Gerald Green, James White or something. Now those guys didnt put in work, a complaint about Qyntel Woods not even coming close to reaching his potential is worthy of bashing. But I guess if your not a star you dont get attention and if you dont maximize that star potential to some arbitrary degree, you dont get praise either. Its as if we punish those who put enough work in to become stars but we wont praise them unless they satisfy our expectations at that point.

Also, he only stated the obvious, he was obviously trying to get traded after management had failed to do so. What about what he did for NJ that same year? Why do people mention the Toronto fiasco but never mention the absolute heroic run he had to sneak NJ into the playoffs?


-----------------------------------------------
As for his defense, VC wasnt an elite defender but he wasnt awful every season of his career and sometimes he didnt have the luxury of going full out on both ends.

mike_noodles
08-14-2012, 12:38 PM
Well from the way the media spoke here in Toronto, VC never wanted to put in the extra work, and that's why he is viewed that way here.

Rentzias
08-14-2012, 12:58 PM
I thought you were just being funny with Qyntel Woods, but it seems you're going with that. Have there been glimpses of Qyntel Woods' or James White's potentials for extended period of times (one season, half a season?). I don't believe so. Meanwhile, Vince Carter has shown what a beast he can be when he does put his work in, but then admittedly, wasted years in Toronto not putting all his effort in. Had he worked as hard back then, then maybe he would be an even more amazing player. Thus his categorization in the "wasted potential" group.

I've never seen anything out of Qyntel Woods or James White enough for me to believe they had a potential to reach that wasn't more than "minimal minutes NBA journeyman." Max potential assumes you maximize everything available to you: time, effort, talent, physique, etc. We've seen nothing of Woods or White to say that they have the time, the effort, or the talent to be an elite player. We have seen that out of Carter, but we've also seen him waste some of it.

Chronz
08-14-2012, 01:13 PM
I thought you were just being funny with Qyntel Woods, but it seems you're going with that. Have there been glimpses of Qyntel Woods' or James White's potentials for extended period of times (one season, half a season?). I don't believe so.
Thats my point, its because they didnt put in the work to make use of their god given abilities. Same with Gerald Green. What is their excuse? Well with regards to Qyntel, he had a troubled childhood and had off the court distractions but the point Im making is that, guys who dont become stars are the guys who put in the least amount of work. VC may not have had the drive of a Kobe Bryant but few do. Lots of players didnt reach their full potential, including several of the all time greats, I just hope people know how common it is and why its not such a despicable trait if that player became a star. Its far worse when that player doesnt even apply himself to become a star in the first place.



Meanwhile, Vince Carter has shown what a beast he can be when he does put his work in, but then admittedly, wasted years in Toronto not putting all his effort in. Had he worked as hard back then, then maybe he would be an even more amazing player. Thus his categorization in the "wasted potential" group.

Wasted Years? I never heard him admit to that, just that he didnt always give it his all, particularly during the stretch when he was trying to get traded.


I've never seen anything out of Qyntel Woods or James White enough for me to believe they had a potential to reach that wasn't more than "minimal minutes NBA journeyman." Max potential assumes you maximize everything available to you: time, effort, talent, physique, etc. We've seen nothing of Woods or White to say that they have the time, the effort, or the talent to be an elite player. We have seen that out of Carter, but we've also seen him waste some of it.

You never saw it because they never put in the work to reach their potential but there is no doubting their god given athletic abilities, they just didnt implement the skill to their games to become stars. Gerald Green seems to finally be putting it together, seems he may become an NBA journey man yet but he had the potential to be so much more.

Same with Terrence Williams, Eddie Robinson, etc..

Chronz
08-14-2012, 01:18 PM
Well from the way the media spoke here in Toronto, VC never wanted to put in the extra work, and that's why he is viewed that way here.
I remember watching games of a young VC and they raved about how much passion and love for the game he had. Maybe injuries sapped some of that enthusiasm and he played with some reluctance. That said, lots of players dont go full bore when they have a hapless squad.

Even fiery guys like KG purposely sat games knowing the team had nothing to play for.

Chronz
08-14-2012, 01:24 PM
Also, people take the comparison to MJ abit too far. Vince had alot of natural gifts, but MJ is on awhole other level athletically, I dont think people appreciate how innately talented MJ was. VC could jump high but he wasnt very quick laterally.

Heres a good breakdown:

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/11/05/deconstructing-a-myth-vince-carter-having-michael-jordan-potential/

Mentions abit of the things I brought up with regards to Vince's skill game and mentality after injuries.

Rentzias
08-14-2012, 01:35 PM
There's a difference between "I think that guy can do it" (James White) and "I've seen that guy do it" (Carter).

Years where you did not give 100% toward being the best player you could be count as wasted years to me.

We're on different pages on how we look at potential, so this'll be an agree to disagree on my end.

ThuglifeJ
08-14-2012, 04:39 PM
Jasonhorn: kidd wasnt on the ****ing 09 nets thanks for that story tho.

If you have time watch vince carter the resolution.. its a video about vince and his veteran leadership of the nets picked to be dead last..

Alayla
08-14-2012, 06:50 PM
its baffling VC was such a great player i dont understand yes he was openly lazy at times but i just dont understand how anyone can think in there mind that he is not a HOFer and wasnt a top SG is an Era where wings where abonormaly strong and his lazyness has worked to his advantage in some ways its preserved his body he should be totally irrelevant by now but becuase he kept himself healthy his knees havent totally caved yet how the man is still playing at an above average level in this league at his age is beyond me. look at Tmac who if im not mistaken is his relative that mans body is utterly shot and hes younger then VC

WeaponXXX
08-14-2012, 07:10 PM
One of his biggest fans but I have to say that he peaked early. If he won 1 championship while he was at his apex, he definitely wouldn't be mention as a wasted potential. He came in gang busters style...... Still the most exciting NBA player ever.

ThuglifeJ
08-14-2012, 07:14 PM
@theVCballer Vince's body is pretty shot if you compare him to his younger self. But he's always been one of the smarter players and plays great as a complementary teammate so thats y he really still plays.

D-Leethal
08-14-2012, 07:16 PM
Theres a difference between guys who were top notch prospects out of college, mega hyped and drafted top 5 and guys who were barely talked about and drafted in the 20s.

Either way, Vince is the reason I got into bball as a kid. Used to be huge tar heel fan and he was my dude when he and Jamison were on the team. The 2000 Dunk Contest will be something I always remember, that was one of the most amazing displays I had ever seen at the time and to this day gives me the chills.

The older I got I started to hate everyone not on the Knicks and got dissapointed with his negative rep around the league and the way he gave up on his team in TO, but when I was a youngin he was the ****ing man.

Chronz
08-14-2012, 08:33 PM
There's a difference between "I think that guy can do it" (James White) and "I've seen that guy do it" (Carter)
The point Im trying to make is, the REASON you saw VC do it (Whatever it may be) is because he put in the work to get the skills. Guys like Eddie Robinson, Gerald Green, Qyntel Woods are all similarly athletic and have some semblance of skill, but didnt put in the work to create a package that can put it all together. I mean isnt it telling that even at an advanced stage where Vince has seen injuries and old age diminish his abilities, he is STILL more productive than those physically talented players ever were.


Years where you did not give 100% toward being the best player you could be count as wasted years to me.

I see going 100% when your trying to get traded as a waste of your abilities.

Chronz
08-14-2012, 08:35 PM
Theres a difference between guys who were top notch prospects out of college, mega hyped and drafted top 5 and guys who were barely talked about and drafted in the 20s.
What about guys who could skip college altogether?

CavsYanksDuke
08-14-2012, 08:49 PM
I'm a Duke fan so I'll be called a hater. However, the man won zero championships despite changing teams multiple times and his greatest moments are not those of victory and accomplishment, but rather athleticism. If he was with a few different teams, he could be an all-time great. Great player, but not one of the greatest ever.

ReconZach
08-14-2012, 09:06 PM
Because he didn't win like his peers did! Vince was compared to who? Kobe? Ray Allen? T Mac? Paul Peirce? And maybe even LeBron and Wade? Point being he was compared and seen as the best at his position but he wasn't ever on a winning team! He didn't compete on the biggest stage. Therefore he will never be seen as one of the best he'll always be the crazy freak athlete!

JC_
08-14-2012, 09:29 PM
IMO he could have been an amazing player. He had more natural talent than most of the guys mentioned in this thread, he just didn't care as much as guys like Lebron, Kobe, D Rose etc. For me there seemed to be a turning point around the time when he was getting engaged/married where he seemed to bring everything down a notch and became pretty nonchalant about winning. I remember watching the Raptors and Vince seemed like something switched in his brain.

Also, maybe he just didn't want to live up to the huge spotlight that was given to him.

StinkEye
08-14-2012, 11:18 PM
It's because people don't know who the **** Quintel Woods is.

Chronz
08-15-2012, 12:13 AM
Why are people misspelling Qyntel Woods?

thekmp211
08-15-2012, 12:49 AM
i am amazed at the athletic ability vince still has.

on topic, i think it's cause of how talented he was for one, but mostly because of the obsession with dominant SG"s thanks to MJ.

it took a while for people to realize how exceptional jordan was, and how difficult it is to win with a high flying guard if you don't have the requisite support. vince came sorta close a couple times but really never played with elite teammates until he was past his prime. even then, kidd, carter and a redundant richard jefferson really were never the type of team built to contend.

he's a HoFer in my book, not first ballot but he get's in.

Raye
08-15-2012, 01:18 AM
Because he didn't win like his peers did! Vince was compared to who? Kobe? Ray Allen? T Mac? Paul Peirce? And maybe even LeBron and Wade? Point being he was compared and seen as the best at his position but he wasn't ever on a winning team! He didn't compete on the biggest stage. Therefore he will never be seen as one of the best he'll always be the crazy freak athlete!
Since when was Vince compared to any of those guys considering he came into the league before some of them and some of them hadn't reached their potential yet.

8kobe24
08-15-2012, 01:55 AM
Maybe because early in his career he showed so much promise, and he was heralded the next MJ? I wouldn't say he's wasted talent though. Would people call Barkley or Malone a wasted talent? I think not...

conway429
08-15-2012, 02:06 AM
I'm over him turning his back on Toronto, VC was amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdBXzid3m7E

VC in Toronto was arguably the most exciting player of all-time to watch.

Vinylman
08-15-2012, 08:25 AM
I dont get this part. VC did put in work, if he didnt he would have been like Gerald Green, just another athletic swingman who can shoot some.

Terrible comparison

Carter played 3 years of college ball for a great coach where he learned a ton about the game and improved his skills. Green came to the nba unprepared right out of hs

Totally apples and oranges

Mcdoh
08-15-2012, 08:43 AM
one of the best high flyer..

StinkEye
08-15-2012, 09:57 AM
Why are people misspelling Qyntel Woods?

because Qyntel is one of those made up names that people give their children.

BobbyHillSwag
08-15-2012, 10:52 AM
if you want to speak of wasted potential speak of antoine walker. He had skills to be one of the best in the league. His post game was good too he just rather shoot 3's(would of shot 4's if they had them).

Chronz
08-15-2012, 11:15 AM
Terrible comparison

Carter played 3 years of college ball for a great coach where he learned a ton about the game and improved his skills. Green came to the nba unprepared right out of hs

Totally apples and oranges

Horrible logic

That he was able to bypass College altogether somehow means he had less potential? lol, as if HS players havent developed before. He had the tools, he didnt make use of them. Tmac and Kobe didnt need College to learn how to handle the ball and create off the bounce, they were learning these skills before even getting to the NBA. They further developed those skills in the NBA. Besides, its not as if there is any evidence that you develop faster or better playing with kids than among the best in the world.

What about all those other collegiates who didnt use that platform as a way to maximize their talent to the same degree Vince did? Again, you guys are acting as if all it takes is talent to become as great as Vince got. If that were true then these clearly superior athletes would be more productive than even an OLD Vince. Yet here we are, with VC clearly less athletic and still in the league.

Again, you dont get as good as he got without putting in some serious work, his physical gifts made it easier, but when I think of wasted potential, I dont see the point in pointing out players who fulfilled that potential to such a high degree.

Im cool with people pointing out that among stars they feel he couldve done more, so long as they realize this holds true for a truckload of stars and that the biggest waste of potential are those who dont even put in the work to become stars in the first place.

Its apples to apples because they are all prospects and similarly talented. The reason it became apples-oranges as basketball players is because one put in work, the other coasted more. Its why when sapped of that athleticism, VC is still in the league and the less committed players are out.

NYY 26 to 7
08-15-2012, 11:38 AM
VC was awesome but the criticism is fair. Unlike other failures you mentioned with the physical tools VC had it all right there but would just shut it down sometimes. If VC didn't want to play VC didn't play and would shut it down if he wasn't happy. Much like my current favorite player Melo they need something to motivate them and need to be kept happy at all times. Both are great and would take either any day of the week but it is noticeable when they don't fully want to put in the effort.

StinkEye
08-15-2012, 12:12 PM
I see what Chronz is getting at, but he's missing the point. We bring up VC because we know how good he was, and knew how good he could have been if he had the work ethic that greater players possess. He could have been greater than Kobe had he tried. The guys he keeps bringing up were ****, nobodies that nobody will remember. I know who James White is, but he's not going to be the first name that pops into my head for this question because he sucked. Sure, he could jump high.

Maybe we should stop labeling every long black dude that has hops as "loaded with talent and potential." They rarely seem to pan out anyways. It's the guys who proved that they can be great (like VC) that end up coming short of their expectations (like VC) that we bring up.

ThuglifeJ
08-15-2012, 01:46 PM
I dont think you guys really get what Chronz is saying. Vince was a superstar in this league..you cant become an NBA superstar with no hard work ethic..especially an SG


but some ppl just arent good enough at the game or able to stay calm on bigstage (Green, White, etc) despite work ethic

Rentzias
08-15-2012, 02:53 PM
The point Im trying to make is, the REASON you saw VC do it (Whatever it may be) is because he put in the work to get the skills. Guys like Eddie Robinson, Gerald Green, Qyntel Woods are all similarly athletic and have some semblance of skill, but didnt put in the work to create a package that can put it all together. I mean isnt it telling that even at an advanced stage where Vince has seen injuries and old age diminish his abilities, he is STILL more productive than those physically talented players ever were.
---
I see going 100% when your trying to get traded as a waste of your abilities.
If you're not challenging yourself every single time and going 100% you're not getting better. Even Bird played left-handed in games where the competition was not up to par.

I know what you're saying, about Vince, but Green/Woods never even scraped their potential for us to know that it was there. My issue is that you look at Jordan's career seasons and you'd rate every season a 9 or a 10 on a 10 scale. Vince had some very early 9/10 seasons then some at a lesser clip, and then more. Like I said, if you're not being pushed, either by your competition or yourself, you're not improving, and therefore not working toward maximizing your potential.

Rockwilderz
08-15-2012, 04:47 PM
A little off topic.. but every time I see or hear people talking about wasted potential. I always think of Jay Williams (bulls) . what a waste..

VC is a freak of nature but ***** happens.. just like Penny .. just like Grant Hill.. Injury killed this guys career. As a raptor fan.. I will always thank this guy for introducing the RAPTORS to the world!

ThuglifeJ
08-15-2012, 06:38 PM
If you're not challenging yourself every single time and going 100% you're not getting better. Even Bird played left-handed in games where the competition was not up to par.

Like I said, if you're not being pushed, either by your competition or yourself, you're not improving, and therefore not working toward maximizing your potential.

this is so middle school basketball coach sayings..like come on now

Bird played left-handed when competition was not up to par, well i believe thats when they started doing lob windmills in Toronto...same difference.


ppl aren't robots either, not saying you said that, but theres no system/program that if everyone follows there gonna be superstars. Some are just naturally better at basketball, have a better feel for the game..when to attack how to elevate and shoot.. you'd be suprirsed how much being naturally good at geometry or naturally being creative can make a difference in the game of basketball