PDA

View Full Version : How will Kobe's legacy be affected if he loses with this cast?



beasted86
08-11-2012, 01:40 AM
This will be the 2nd time around he will be playing with 3 other future Hall of Fame players. If he loses his 3rd NBA Finals, and specifically is a source of conflict in the team's locker room, what would happen to his legacy?

Would it automatically exclude him from top 10 all-time discussion because he would go down as a selfish player?

PleaseBeNice
08-11-2012, 01:42 AM
Wouldnt be his fault

beasted86
08-11-2012, 01:43 AM
Wouldnt be his fault

Did you read the post?

NBAfan4life
08-11-2012, 01:46 AM
Kobe is my all time favorite player, but the dude is declining. IMO it would not affect his legacy if he doesn't win a title. Lakers are my team, but Kobe has almost 2 decades of mileage on his body. Nash is old as dirt. Gasol has a ton of mileage from Fiba. Dwight is recovering from back surgery.

Don't get me wrong I like our chances but if OKC or Miami knock the Lakers out in the playoffs there isn't any shame.

Mr.B
08-11-2012, 01:58 AM
Kobe's lagacy is cemented. He won with Shaq and he proved he can win while being the "man". He is by far from being one of my favorite players but he is without a doubt the 3rd best closer in NBA history (in my opinion) next the Jordan and Magic.

With that being said, if they don't win the title this year it will be the biggest choke job in NBA history (next to the Heat losing to the Mavs).

Hotone1401
08-11-2012, 01:59 AM
This will be the 2nd time around he will be playing with 3 other future Hall of Fame players. If he loses his 3rd NBA Finals, and specifically is a source of conflict in the team's locker room, what would happen to his legacy?

Would it automatically exclude him from top 10 all-time discussion because he would go down as a selfish player?

Well Kobe won two titles with only one hall of famer in Pau so what does that tell you?

Obviously, Kobe isn't winning a championship by himself an the burden lies on Dwight and Nash just as much to win their first title. IMO this team is a better fit as far as players complimenting when compared to the 04' team and I'm sure they'll display great team basketball in their pursuit of a title.

And before you go off saying Kobe won't play second fiddle, you take a look at the fact that Kobe's reputation has shown that he will do whatever it takes to win. On top of that, he doesn't really seem to care about who scores for team USA.

To answer your question, Kobe has already solidified his place as a Top 10 Player All-Time and in the the light of his career now I look for him to only add to his legacy. And I look for the Lakers to work the ball into Dwight early and often. Kobe was the perfect compliment to Shaq and with age and experience I can really see him Dwight become an even more dominant force than he already is.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-11-2012, 02:00 AM
His legacy is already set in stone. One of the greatest ever to play the game from a winning standpoint, excitement entertainment standpoint, and fundamental basketball skillset standpoint.

Kobes a Killer
08-11-2012, 02:02 AM
His legacy is already set in stone. One of the greatest ever to play the game from a winning standpoint, excitement entertainment standpoint, and fundamental basketball skillset standpoint.

This, anyone who says otherwise is a hater/homer

whitemamba33
08-11-2012, 02:03 AM
Nobody is going to make or break their legacy in their 17th NBA season.

Aust
08-11-2012, 02:04 AM
*GASP*

He won't even be a HOFer

raiderposting
08-11-2012, 02:22 AM
He wont lose, sig that.

DreamShaker
08-11-2012, 02:31 AM
This is all on Howard. Kobe and Duncan are the two guys in the leauge who have nothing left to prove. They are both still great players, but it is not fair to expect them to dominate like they used to. Howard, to me, has never been as dominate as people make him out to be. He really does not have the attitude to dominate. He is expected to be the savior of a team that most thought had peaked. Now he has a closer, a really good pass-first point guard, and a great front court mate. If the Lakers underachieve, it is because he shrinks under pressure.

PocketKings
08-11-2012, 02:35 AM
This is all on Howard. Kobe and Duncan are the two guys in the leauge who have nothing left to prove. They are both still great players, but it is not fair to expect them to dominate like they used to. Howard, to me, has never been as dominate as people make him out to be. He really does not have the attitude to dominate. He is expected to be the savior of a team that most thought had peaked. Now he has a closer, a really good pass-first point guard, and a great front court mate. If the Lakers underachieve, it is because he shrinks under pressure.

This.

Love this response.

But I will say this though: it will leave somewhat of a bitter taste in the fans of Kobe if Kobe treats this season like he did last year. Jacking up a ridiculous amount of shots, experiencing another year where he shoots below his career averages, and stagnates the team by adhering to the "hero ball" style that he is so used to playing.

BUT ON THE FLIP SIDE IS: if he embraces and is openly willing to integrate the strength's of both Nash and Howard into the Lakers game and helps this awesome supporting cast fulfill the potential so many of us are salivating at it can only help his legacy.

I agree, his legacy won't be tarnished, but if the first scenario plays out and let's say the chemistry never gets achieved in Lakerland, it will leave a bad taste in a lot of fans' and critics mouth about Kobe after he retires and we view his career say 5-15 years after he has left the game.

Aust
08-11-2012, 02:39 AM
This.

Love this response.

But I will say this though: it will leave somewhat of a bitter taste in the fans of Kobe if Kobe treats this season like he did last year. Jacking up a ridiculous amount of shots, experiencing another year where he shoots below his career averages, and stagnates the team by adhering to the "hero ball" style that he is so used to playing.

BUT ON THE FLIP SIDE IS: if he embraces and is openly willing to integrate the strength's of both Nash and Howard into the Lakers game and helps this awesome supporting cast fulfill the potential so many of us are salivating at it can only help his legacy.

I agree, his legacy won't be tarnished, but if the first scenario plays out and let's say the chemistry never gets achieved in Lakerland, it will leave a bad taste in a lot of fans' and critics mouth about Kobe after he retires and we view his career say 5-15 years after he has left the game.

Well said. I'm hoping for option2

heyman321
08-11-2012, 02:41 AM
He'll be remembered as the worst player in history if he doesn't win this year.

Avenged
08-11-2012, 02:43 AM
Nope. The consensus is that Dwight is the better player and it's his team. Dwight is about to start his own legacy. If this season fails, it mainly goes on Dwight.

Kobe already has his legacy set imo. Like DreamShaker said, he has nothing left to prove. Everything he accomplishes now is just adding to his resume.

BKdoubleStacker
08-11-2012, 02:44 AM
he will still be the 2nd best SG of all time win or lose. Another ring will only add to his resume.

gcoll
08-11-2012, 02:45 AM
Kobe's legacy is set in stone.

One of the better players of his era, that everybody kind of thought was a douche.

Chacarron
08-11-2012, 02:45 AM
He can only improve his legacy from now on.

The_Jamal
08-11-2012, 02:52 AM
This.

Love this response.

But I will say this though: it will leave somewhat of a bitter taste in the fans of Kobe if Kobe treats this season like he did last year. Jacking up a ridiculous amount of shots, experiencing another year where he shoots below his career averages, and stagnates the team by adhering to the "hero ball" style that he is so used to playing.

BUT ON THE FLIP SIDE IS: if he embraces and is openly willing to integrate the strength's of both Nash and Howard into the Lakers game and helps this awesome supporting cast fulfill the potential so many of us are salivating at it can only help his legacy.

I agree, his legacy won't be tarnished, but if the first scenario plays out and let's say the chemistry never gets achieved in Lakerland, it will leave a bad taste in a lot of fans' and critics mouth about Kobe after he retires and we view his career say 5-15 years after he has left the game.

Agreed 100%. This Lakers team is all about Kobe. If he plays like playmaker Kobe and is looking to pass/set teammates up, the Lakers will be unbeatable. He's really the only thing I see standing in the Lakers way of a finals appearance, depending on what sort of role he decides to play

sunsfan88
08-11-2012, 02:54 AM
I think Kobe will go all out this year. He wants to match Pippen's 6 rings.

PocketKings
08-11-2012, 02:59 AM
Agreed 100%. This Lakers team is all about Kobe. If he plays like playmaker Kobe and is looking to pass/set teammates up, the Lakers will be unbeatable. He's really the only thing I see standing in the Lakers way of a finals appearance, depending on what sort of role he decides to play

Mike Brown as well. I think he can be a liability in their chances of winning a title.

But to comment further. I agree that Kobe has done everything he has had to to place himself amongst the all time greats. His legacy has been written, but at the same time I'm not willing to just give him a pass in someways on the phase of the twilight of his career.

Truth is, I want to see if Kobe can "humble" himself and allow the Lakers to be great without him having to be the alpha. Can Kobe allow Nash to be Nash and bring out the best in everyone's game? Can Kobe allow Dwight to be a force on the low-block to open up more opportunities for him and the others?

I agree that it won't tarnish Kobe's legacy, but how this last phase of his career ends will leave the last "taste" in my mouth on Kobe.

Kobe for me is my all time favorite player. He is who brought about my love for basketball and in my eyes nothing can ever tarnish his image in my heart, but I would love to see him leave the game on top holding a 6th, 7th, or even possibly an 8th Larry O'Brien trophy.

I don't want my last memory of him being part of the reason for the implosion of one of the most beautifully assembled teams with a ridiculous amount of talent and starpower.

gcoll
08-11-2012, 03:03 AM
I agree that Kobe has done everything he has had to to place himself amongst the all time greats.
Except shoot 50% from the field....

odiz
08-11-2012, 04:03 AM
Who are the three other hall of famers he played with at the same time in the past? No doubt the Lakers have done a good job of surrounding him with talent but no one has ever won on their own. With the exception of maybe the 2004 Pistons (They had 5 All Stars though) i cant think of any team that has ever won it all without multiple future HOFers on their roster.

LakersSaintsLSU
08-11-2012, 04:18 AM
Hahahahaha were back because the haters are!!!!!!!! We got dwight haters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LakersMaster24
08-11-2012, 04:24 AM
I think Kobe will go all out this year. He wants to match Pippen's 6 rings.

Pippen? You mean Bob Cousy right?

beliges
08-11-2012, 04:26 AM
Kobes legacy will remain unchanged if this team cannot get it done. His accomplishments are set and at the very worst, Kobe will end up a top 6-10 player of all time. However, with another title he certainly gets in that top 5. Only thing he has left to do now is win as much as possible and go out on top.

Laker Legend42
08-11-2012, 05:10 AM
Dwight stands to take the bigger hit because he cried himself a river and got what he wanted.

Steelers23_06
08-11-2012, 05:40 AM
dumb thread. you should know as a heat fan losing in the finals doesnt tarnish your legacy unless you dont have one. look at magic, bird, lebron, shaq they all lost it happens(you have the freaks like jordan and russell but that dont count lol). i think kobes image can only go up win or lose. he never be out of top 10, my personal top 5 players in history. so to say this could put a blemish on his legacy is just silly.

Steelers23_06
08-11-2012, 05:41 AM
Dwight stands to take the bigger hit because he cried himself a river and got what he wanted.

this :clap:

bringinwood
08-11-2012, 05:57 AM
No...

His legacy is cemented and it will be unwaivering for the rest of his career...

He won NBA titles with the best supporting casts ever assembled...

He is no LeBron, Jordan, or Wilt...

He won with amazingly talented groups all the while never being the best player in the NBA...

It's quite an accomplishment by him...

Longhornfan1234
08-11-2012, 06:03 AM
this :clap:

A Steelers and Heat fan? Do you root for the Yankees and USC too?

Steelers23_06
08-11-2012, 06:27 AM
A Steelers and Heat fan? Do you root for the Yankees and USC too?

ur cool. what are you the fan police?! if u must know my father is a steelers fan so i have been one for 22 years strong. and i have been a lebron fan since he was a senior in hs when i first really started making following basketball part of my everyday life. so obviously im gonna be a heat fan after following his every move. had his 1st pair of shoes, flew all the way to miami to watch him play the heat his rookie season(ironic lol) saw him play boston multiple times even did my eighth grade english project on his rookie season so im supposed to stay a cavs fan...rofl. trust me its much harder to be a fan of an opposing team in massachusetts then following the home teams just because they are the home team.

now you know about my fan history...so what does it have to do with this thread and/or what i said?

flatbush knicks
08-11-2012, 07:29 AM
lmao yeah 5 rings means nothing and for the record they could trade kobe for anybody and win with that lineup nash d12 and gasol are you friggin kidding me thats not even fair i hate the dam lakers and im excited as hell to see them play plus that move will all but guarantee cp3 leaves the clippers

bigsams50
08-11-2012, 07:30 AM
If he loses this year, then any crazy talk about him being as good as Jordan should be over

basketfan4life
08-11-2012, 08:45 AM
HEY OP;

Do you think lebron losing with the second best player in the league a former finals mvp and future HOF , and another top 15 player and possible future HOF takes away any chance he has to be top 10 ever? or do you think his title with those same 2 players, even in a shortened season with tons of injuries makes it less valuable??

No?

Then shut the **** up.

Edit: Also almost every Heat fan thinks they are still the favourites, so how can you guys say it effects his legacy so badly when you don't even think his team is the favourite to win it all?

BKLYNpigeon
08-11-2012, 08:56 AM
If the Lakers dont win it all this year, Phil Jackson will be back next season.

RLundi
08-11-2012, 09:08 AM
HEY OP;

Do you think lebron losing with the second best player in the league a former finals mvp and future HOF , and another top 15 player and possible future HOF takes away any chance he has to be top 10 ever? or do you think his title with those same 2 players, even in a shortened season with tons of injuries makes it less valuable??

No?

Then shut the **** up.

Edit: Also almost every Heat fan thinks they are still the favourites, so how can you guys say it effects his legacy so badly when you don't even think his team is the favourite to win it all?

Why don't you relax, it was a simple and legitimate question. Why so hostile?

brodawgs
08-11-2012, 09:20 AM
Yes, this can affect his legacy. What you guys mean by cemented in stone is that he's won 5 rings, 2 being the man, and that overall he's one of the best to play the game, nothing will change that. But if people want to keep comparing him to Jordan, you can't lose if the supporting cast you have is the best assembled in NBA history. Winning will help his legacy, losing will hurt as far as the comparisons for GOAT go.

Jarvo
08-11-2012, 09:32 AM
It will be on Howard.

KnicksorBust
08-11-2012, 09:39 AM
I think Kobe will go all out this year. He wants to match Pippen's 6 rings.

That's good.


If he loses this year, then any crazy talk about him being as good as Jordan should be over

The only people who would consider taking Kobe over Jordan are Lakers fans or people that can't legally drive.

His next potential legacy hurdle is Magic. But they need to win the chip with him playing at a high level.

Dade County
08-11-2012, 10:09 AM
Kobe's lagacy is cemented. He won with Shaq and he proved he can win while being the "man". He is by far from being one of my favorite players but he is without a doubt the 3rd best closer in NBA history (in my opinion) next the Jordan and Magic.

With that being said, if they don't win the title this year it will be the biggest choke job in NBA history (next to the Heat losing to the Mavs).

ummm yeah... The HEAT didn't choke, Lbj was just falling orders... get it right... smh.

And to answer the op, NO this would not do anything to Kobe legacy; he is OLD and he doesn't have his same skill set.

And LA (the city) isn't getting any rings no time soon, maybe after Kobe retires and they can bring in another super star to play with Howard. I have a filling that the powers to be have set it up that only the HEAT or OKC will be getting rings in the near future.

NBA = Entertainment, we just have to deal with it.

NBAfan4life
08-11-2012, 10:18 AM
Kobe and Laker fan here. OKC and Miami are still the favorites IMO. Like I said I really like our chances but if a healthy Laker team loses to them, there isn't any shame in that.

Iceman_9
08-11-2012, 10:20 AM
his stats and the number of titles he has will vindicate him.

Hawkeye15
08-11-2012, 10:30 AM
Kobe can't really do anything at this point to hurt his legacy or ranking for me personally. I think this ring will be more on Dwight, since he is the best player on the team, in his peak. Kobe is a top 10 all time player. I don't really think winning another title as the second banana will help his legacy much, but losing in the finals won't hurt it either. After 16 seasons or whatever, we have had a large enough sample size that he gets leeway either way.

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-11-2012, 12:08 PM
No...

His legacy is cemented and it will be unwaivering for the rest of his career...

He won NBA titles with the best supporting casts ever assembled...

He is no LeBron, Jordan, or Wilt...

He won with amazingly talented groups all the while never being the best player in the NBA...

It's quite an accomplishment by him...

Oh yes hahaha Kobe is no Lebron he was for the majority of his career simply better, and you say Kobe won with stacked teams?
May I remind you Lebron didn't win **** until he formed a stacked team as well with a top 10 and 20 player? Lol same with Jordan? Weren't his teams stacked? Give it a rest
Lebron will probably never rank higher then Kobe due to championships and clutch factor
But Kobe will never match Jordan either because of the lack of mvp's and stats

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-11-2012, 12:13 PM
If the lakers win the title this year There is no doubt Kobe will be finals MVP! He will go balls out! After that most people will rank kobe in the top 5 ever and the greatest laker of all-time passing magic. IMO tho if he gets 1-2 more rings he'll go in my top 3 players ever

JordansBulls
08-11-2012, 01:13 PM
He is still top 10 all-time

beliges
08-11-2012, 01:19 PM
No...

His legacy is cemented and it will be unwaivering for the rest of his career...

He won NBA titles with the best supporting casts ever assembled...

He is no LeBron, Jordan, or Wilt...

He won with amazingly talented groups all the while never being the best player in the NBA...

It's quite an accomplishment by him...

You must not have been watching NBA prior to the 2000s? Magic and Bird had some of the greatest casts ever assembled. The Bulls had such deep teams with Pippen and all-stars surrounding them. Kobe has been on some spectactular teams. At least with Shaq from 2000-2002. The back to back title teams from 09-10 were anything but spectacular. No top 50 players of all time there like the other greats have had.

Miami has a better team than Kobe EVER played on, maybe outside of this current team. I mean wow they are stacked this time around.

heyman321
08-11-2012, 01:28 PM
You must not have been watching NBA prior to the 2000s? Magic and Bird had some of the greatest casts ever assembled. The Bulls had such deep teams with Pippen and all-stars surrounding them. Kobe has been on some spectactular teams. At least with Shaq from 2000-2002. The back to back title teams from 09-10 were anything but spectacular. No top 50 players of all time there like the other greats have had.

Miami has a better team than Kobe EVER played on, maybe outside of this current team. I mean wow they are stacked this time around.

Not sure if serious....once Gasol was added to Bynum/Odom, pretty much no front court could handle them, well except the Celtics. Those teams were stacked. It just happens that all the good teams in the NBA have gotten even more stacked since then with actual good players signing for peanuts.

beliges
08-11-2012, 01:30 PM
Not sure if serious....once Gasol was added to Bynum/Odom, pretty much no front court could handle them, well except the Celtics. Those teams were stacked. It just happens that all the good teams in the NBA have gotten even more stacked since then with actual good players signing for peanuts.

Gasol never was able to muster up one victory in his career. Was nothing spectacular before coming to LA.

Bynum was a mediocre big man with great potential during that time.

And Lamar was, well, Lamar. Nothing that would qualify as "stacked" thats for sure.

Those 09-10 Laker championship teams were probably the least stacked championship teams since probably the Rockets title teams 94-95.

newfearsome4som
08-11-2012, 04:27 PM
lmao yeah 5 rings means nothing and for the record they could trade kobe for anybody and win with that lineup nash d12 and gasol are you friggin kidding me thats not even fair i hate the dam lakers and im excited as hell to see them play plus that move will all but guarantee cp3 leaves the clippers

i dont see what this would have to do with CP3 leaveing the clippers although i find it hilarious that it looked like they were poised to take over LA with Blake and CP3 and they lakers looking seemingly on the decline, and then LA ends up with Nash, D12, and Antwan Jamison while only giving up bynum and some draft picks and the clips are once again an after thought, albeit a much more talented one then they ever were before

C-Style
08-11-2012, 04:50 PM
If the lakers win the title this year There is no doubt Kobe will be finals MVP! He will go balls out! After that most people will rank kobe in the top 5 ever and the greatest laker of all-time passing magic. IMO tho if he gets 1-2 more rings he'll go in my top 3 players ever

my thoughts

Hawkeye15
08-11-2012, 04:53 PM
Reading Laker fans downplay the help Kobe was given is comical.

#Shumpert Up
08-11-2012, 05:00 PM
kobes supporting casts

first 3 peat

SHAQ need i say more?
not to mention fisher and horry

2 titles in a row later in the decade

bynum/gasol/fisher/odom yeah. he had no help :facepalm:

Minimal
08-11-2012, 05:22 PM
He has 5 rings. He already proven everyone that he is a winner. His legacy wont be affected in any way.

Tony_Starks
08-11-2012, 05:34 PM
Its funny how Kobe constantly gets bashed for having good/great teammates but some guy from Chicago won with the best two way SF at the time and the greatest rebounding/defensive PF ever, as well as 3 point shooting champs and a six man of the year candidate......

JordansBulls
08-11-2012, 05:37 PM
Its funny how Kobe constantly gets bashed for having good/great teammates but some guy from Chicago won with the best two way SF at the time and the greatest rebounding/defensive PF ever, as well as 3 point shooting champs and a six man of the year candidate......

The difference is one guy went to a franchise that was in 24 finals and won 11 titles prior to him arriving and the other guy 0 finals and 0 titles. Not to mention one guy came into a situation where he had a top 3 player in the league and always got star players proven in there prime. Just because a guy on the Bulls became a great player doesn't mean he had that all the time or he acquired a star player. And let's not forget Kobe in no season has led his team in Win Shares in any season the Lakers won the title.

Tony_Starks
08-11-2012, 05:43 PM
The difference is one guy went to a franchise that was in 24 finals and won 11 titles prior to him arriving and the other guy 0 finals and 0 titles. Not to mention one guy came into a situation where he had a top 3 player in the league and always got star players proven in there prime. Just because a guy on the Bulls became a great player doesn't mean he had that all the time or he acquired a star player. And let's not forget Kobe in no season has led his team in Win Shares in any season the Lakers won the title.


I don't think the Lakers winning tradition should take away from Kobes greatness in any way. And the fact remains that MJ won with a very good supporting cast. Just like Magic, Bird,...etc. It seems Kobe is the only one that catches flack for it though.....

RaiderKid318
08-11-2012, 05:44 PM
not a lakers fan or a kobe fan, but none at all? Can't compare this to lebron to miami at all because the players are older in LA, coming off of a major surgery, can't play D, and different positions.

Lebron was/is the best player in the league with bosh and wade being to 15-20 players behind him. You got kobe who is still a top 15, howard who can be a top 5(don't know with his health though), gasol who irdk where to put because idk which one will show up lol, and nash who has dropped wayyyy off. That being said IF everyone is going to compare this to the heat's younger team then you have to give them a 2 year span to get a championship. Only thing is can the bodies of nash, kobe, and even howard hold up? Will Gasol's height catch up to him? Who knows, but it should be fun to watch nash imo with all of these offensive threats. Could see him destroying all single season/game assist records before he retires.

JordansBulls
08-11-2012, 05:47 PM
I don't think the Lakers winning tradition should take away from Kobes greatness in any way. And the fact remains that MJ won with a very good supporting cast. Just like Magic, Bird,...etc. It seems Kobe is the only one that catches flack for it though.....

It's not that it is the fact he is the only one who gets all these players on his team in there primes. First Shaq, then Gasol and now Dwight. And then a bunch of other guys going to LA for rings in Malone, Payton and Nash.

How many players have ever gotten a top 3-5 player on there teams in there primes twice?

Again, I'm not counting guys who started with the team like Eddie Jones, Van Exel, Andrew Bynum I'm talking about just getting Superstar players in there primes for peanuts.

beliges
08-11-2012, 05:56 PM
The difference is one guy went to a franchise that was in 24 finals and won 11 titles prior to him arriving and the other guy 0 finals and 0 titles. Not to mention one guy came into a situation where he had a top 3 player in the league and always got star players proven in there prime. Just because a guy on the Bulls became a great player doesn't mean he had that all the time or he acquired a star player. And let's not forget Kobe in no season has led his team in Win Shares in any season the Lakers won the title.

Thats very misleading and inaccurate analysis. While Shaq was a great player, he never was able to win a thing until he teamed up with Kobe, even though he had some incredible teammates and played on very talented teams. In fact, this statement is ironic since Kobe was able to win without Shaq at a greater rate than Shaq was able to without Kobe. Furthermore, in 09-10, Kobe won with Pau. Pau was certainly not a "proven" player as you are calling him. All Pau had "proven" up to that point was that he was a good player who had been unable to win even a single playoff game. But allongside Kobe, he was able to win 2 titles in a row. Now with Dwight and Nash, neither one had been able to win. Dwight's only opportunity to win came against Kobe in 08, and Kobe bested him.

Lastly, as a Bulls fan which I assume you are, lets not forget that MJ was unable to win a thing until teaming up with Pippen, and all-star big in Grant/Rodman. Even MJ was unable to do with without incredible teammates. Also, lets not forget, MJ had Pippen, a top 50 player of all time, during ALL 6 championship runs. Kobe had a top 50 player in Shaq only during his first 3 rings. During his 4th and 5th titles, he didnt have a player close to a top 50 all time caliber player.

So youre analysis is farfetched and nothing but a mere opinion of yours. Some teams like Bird's Celtics have had some of the best talented teams of all time, but they were only able to muster 3 titles, which is not bad, but nowhere near 5.

JordansBulls
08-11-2012, 06:02 PM
Thats very misleading and inaccurate analysis. While Shaq was a great player, he never was able to win a thing until he teamed up with Kobe, even though he had some incredible teammates and played on very talented teams. In fact, this statement is ironic since Kobe was able to win without Shaq at a greater rate than Shaq was able to without Kobe. Furthermore, in 09-10, Kobe won with Pau. Pau was certainly not a "proven" player as you are calling him. All Pau had "proven" up to that point was that he was a good player who had been unable to win even a single playoff game. But allongside Kobe, he was able to win 2 titles in a row. Now with Dwight and Nash, neither one had been able to win. Dwight's only opportunity to win came against Kobe in 08, and Kobe bested him.

Lastly, as a Bulls fan which I assume you are, lets not forget that MJ was unable to win a thing until teaming up with Pippen, and all-star big in Grant/Rodman. Even MJ was unable to do with without incredible teammates. Also, lets not forget, MJ had Pippen, a top 50 player of all time, during ALL 6 championship runs. Kobe had a top 50 player in Shaq only during his first 3 rings. During his 4th and 5th titles, he didnt have a player close to a top 50 all time caliber player.

So youre analysis is farfetched and nothing but a mere opinion of yours. Some teams like Bird's Celtics have had some of the best talented teams of all time, but they were only able to muster 3 titles, which is not bad, but nowhere near 5.

This is totally inaccurate. Gasol came into the league as a 18 and 9 player along with 2 bpg. He pretty much averaged that every year of his career. He also won gold medal for Spain in FIBA before joining the Lakers. He also led the team in Win Shares from 2009 thru 2012 in the season and led them in it for the playoffs in 2010 (the entire league at that).
So he actually produced as much if not more than Kobe for those seasons.

Again Jordan didn't teammate with Pippen/Grant or Rodman, none of those guys came to the Bulls as allstar players. Pippen and Grant came in as 8 and 4 players and Rodman was 35+ years old. In fact for two of the Bulls titles Jordan was the only allstar on the team. Again not saying Jordan didn't have talent, however there is a big difference between getting 3 star players on your team in there primes years apart and always getting them vs working with guys on your team and they become stars. Which is why I didn't mention Bynum as he pretty much was like Pippen in that he grew into a star player on the Bulls like Bynum did for the Lakers.

LAKERMANIA
08-11-2012, 06:04 PM
Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest players in NBA History, how is losing in his 17th year going to "automatically" exclude him from the top 10?

JordansBulls
08-11-2012, 06:05 PM
Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest players in NBA History, how is losing in his 17th year going to "automatically" exclude him from the top 10?

It doesn't, and I'm not sure why the thread was even made. If anything the thread it should be how do the Lakers always end up with absolute elite star players in there primes.

beliges
08-11-2012, 06:10 PM
This is totally inaccurate. Gasol came into the league as a 18 and 9 player along with 2 bpg. He pretty much averaged that every year of his career. He also won gold medal for Spain in FIBA before joining the Lakers. He also led the team in Win Shares from 2009 thru 2012 in the season and led them in it for the playoffs in 2010 (the entire league at that).
So he actually produced as much if not more than Kobe for those seasons.

Again Jordan didn't teammate with Pippen/Grant or Rodman, none of those guys came to the Bulls as allstar players. Pippen and Grant came in as 8 and 4 players and Rodman was 35+ years old. In fact for two of the Bulls titles Jordan was the only allstar on the team. Again not saying Jordan didn't have talent, however there is a big difference between getting 3 star players on your team in there primes years apart and always getting them vs working with guys on your team and they become stars. Which is why I didn't mention Bynum as he pretty much was like Pippen in that he grew into a star player on the Bulls like Bynum did for the Lakers.

Bynum was nothing like Pippen in that Pippen is a top 50 of all time talent and is considered by a wide majority as being the greatest perimeter defender ever. Bynum is nothing remotely close to that kind of talent. And while Pau was averaging good numbers on a Memphis team, he was still winless in a playoff game.

And once again, you try to refute the fact that MJ had great teammates by saying they were drafted by the team. However, that would go against your logic that Kobe got "lucky" to play on the Lakers while MJ earned the titles because he played for a "mediocre" franchise. The fact remains, MJ couldnt win jack until he teamed up with Pippen, Grant, Paxson, BJ, Rodman, Harper, Kerr, Kukoc, etc...and etc.... MJ ALWAYS had a top 50 player along side during each and every one of his titles. Kobe only had a top 50 player for only 3 of his 5 titles. Pau is nothing remotely close to a top 50 player or a Pippen caliber player. And you mention "working with guys" on your team to make them better. Once again, neither Shaq, Pau, Lamar or Bynum had ever won a thing until teamming up with Kobe. Now, Kobe is gonna attempt to turn Dwight and Nash into champs. To me, that seems like "working with your teamates" to make them better.

Bottom line is, MJ and Kobe werent any different than any other superstar that has won titles in this league. Both needed a tremendous amount of help and both had a tremendous amount of help.

Tony_Starks
08-11-2012, 06:11 PM
It doesn't, and I'm not sure why the thread was even made. If anything the thread it should be how do the Lakers always end up with absolute elite star players in there primes.


I think you seriously downplay Rodman. He led the league in rebounding with the Bulls and was a HUGE part of beating Karl Malones Jazz who were nearly unstoppable at the time.

Its not like when Lakers got Malone, he was on his last leg and literally retired the next year. Rodman gave them 3 incredibly productive years......

LAKERMANIA
08-11-2012, 06:14 PM
I don't think the Lakers winning tradition should take away from Kobes greatness in any way. And the fact remains that MJ won with a very good supporting cast. Just like Magic, Bird,...etc. It seems Kobe is the only one that catches flack for it though.....

Yeah this is sadly what most NBA fans believe.. Jordan, Bird and Magic all had great teams (yes even Jordan) and yet Kobe is the only one being bashed for being on "stacked" teams..

Jordan had Pippen (Top 50 of all time)
Magic had Kareem and Worthy (All 3 Top 50 of all time)
Kobe had Shaq from 2000-2002 (Both Top 50 as well)
Kobe had Pau Gasol, a limited Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom (None except Kobe are in the top 50 of all time)

The 2009-2010 Lakers actually only had 1 all-star not counting Kobe (Pau).. The 2009-2010 Laker teams were stacked with talent sure, but no one except Kobe on those teams can even sniff the top 50, and they won Back to Back, something only 4 franchises have been able to do in the NBA's 70 year history

JordansBulls
08-11-2012, 06:19 PM
Bynum was nothing like Pippen in that Pippen is a top 50 of all time talent and is considered by a wide majority as being the greatest perimeter defender ever. Bynum is nothing remotely close to that kind of talent. And while Pau was averaging good numbers on a Memphis team, he was still winless in a playoff game.

And once again, you try to refute the fact that MJ had great teammates by saying they were drafted by the team. However, that would go against your logic that Kobe got "lucky" to play on the Lakers while MJ earned the titles because he played for a "mediocre" franchise. The fact remains, MJ couldnt win jack until he teamed up with Pippen, Grant, Paxson, BJ, Rodman, Harper, Kerr, Kukoc, etc...and etc.... MJ ALWAYS had a top 50 player along side during each and every one of his titles. Kobe only had a top 50 player for only 3 of his 5 titles. Pau is nothing remotely close to a top 50 player or a Pippen caliber player. And you mention "working with guys" on your team to make them better. Once again, neither Shaq, Pau, Lamar or Bynum had ever won a thing until teamming up with Kobe. Now, Kobe is gonna attempt to turn Dwight and Nash into champs. To me, that seems like "working with your teamates" to make them better.

Bottom line is, MJ and Kobe werent any different than any other superstar that has won titles in this league. Both needed a tremendous amount of help and both had a tremendous amount of help.


Jordan 3 peated before Pippen was a top 50 player all time. In fact MJ's first title and last title Pippen wasn't even an allstar. In fact Gasol this year was an allstar and had a higher win share and PER than Pippen had in any of the Bulls title runs. In fact, Pippen didn't become top 50 until after the Bulls won there 4th title.


Playing for an organization that is known for winning is pretty simple. For instance, the Lakers are a winning organization so it is easy for top 3-5 players in the league playing with LA to win titles. Nearly every decade they have been in the finals and/or won Titles. So obviously when a big name is there they will win. That won't happen with any other franchise automatically except maybe Boston.

50's - Mikan (3 titles)
60's - West/Baylor (6 finals)
70's - West (1 title)/Kareem
80's - Magic/Kareem (5 titles)
90's - Magic (first two years), Shaq (last 3 years)
00's - Shaq (first year)/Shaq/Kobe next 2 years/Kobe last 2 years.
10's - Dwight/Kobe/Gasol/Nash

Now if this were the Sixers or Knicks teams that won in the past but a long time ago, then it would have been different.


Bulls were not a winning organization until MJ came along and and since he left still is a losing organization.

Any star player who plays with the Lakers wins titles. It is a guarantee.

Now if Kobe went to an organization like Indiana from the get go or even a franchise like Dallas who never won anything then his legacy would be better.

That is why I believe winning with franchises that never were known for winning makes a players legacy greater.


Gasol had higher win share and PER than any season Pippen had when the Bulls won titles. Also Gasol was an allstar before ever playing with Kobe.

Pippen didn't become an allstar until he played with MJ as MJ had a hand in turning Pippen into the player he was. It's amazing how people act like MJ inherited this top 50 player off the bat or some star from the get go like all these other stars have inherited.
Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.
Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)



Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



Regarding Bynum, there were some calling him the best center in the league so don't say he isn't a top talent.

JordansBulls
08-11-2012, 06:23 PM
Yeah this is sadly what most NBA fans believe.. Jordan, Bird and Magic all had great teams (yes even Jordan) and yet Kobe is the only one being bashed for being on "stacked" teams..

Jordan had Pippen (Top 50 of all time)
Magic had Kareem and Worthy (All 3 Top 50 of all time)
Kobe had Shaq from 2000-2002 (Both Top 50 as well)
Kobe had Pau Gasol, a limited Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom (None except Kobe are in the top 50 of all time)

The 2009-2010 Lakers actually only had 1 all-star not counting Kobe (Pau).. The 2009-2010 Laker teams were stacked with talent sure, but no one except Kobe on those teams can even sniff the top 50, and they won Back to Back, something only 4 franchises have been able to do in the NBA's 70 year history

Again he isn't being downplayed and no one answered the question. How is it that he has gotten 3 allstars/superstars in there prime in different intervals of his career? No one else ever played with something like that and I'm talking about elite superstars two guys who are arguably top 3 and another guy top 10 all guys who were allstars in there primes even before going to the Lakers.

Edit: This all started because Tony_Starks started mentioning the Bulls. All I had said is that Kobe still is top 10 no matter what.

LAKERMANIA
08-11-2012, 06:34 PM
Again he isn't being downplayed and no one answered the question. How is it that he has gotten 3 allstars/superstars in there prime in different intervals of his career?
What does this point have to do with anything? It's not our fault our FO gets players like the Yankees...Lets say for example the Bulls FO in the 90s had Pippen, then acquired Olajuwan, then acquired Duncan to play with Jordan, would that really make Jordan that less of a player just because he played with 3 different Allstars/Superstars? I don't understand this point..



Edit: This all started because Tony_Starks started mentioning the Bulls. All I had said is that Kobe still is top 10 no matter what.

He never made a bad point though.. The point is, every player needs help, every player needs a great team to win titles, I just hate it when people act like the 90s Bulls were pretty much the 1997-1998 Los Angeles Clippers but with Jordan... That was never the case, they had a great team AND had Jordan in it and the triangle fit them perfectly...

EDIT: I forgot to mention, if Kobe wins a title with this team, he would have officially won a title WITHOUT Phil Jackson and the triangle offense...;) I'll let that sink in..

Tony_Starks
08-11-2012, 06:35 PM
Well back to topic I would then say that if a Kobe in the so-called "decline" of his career loses with some guys that have never won it all on their own I can't see how that affects his status.

That being said, I am preparing for another parade in downtown LA as we speak!!

Kashmir13579
08-11-2012, 06:35 PM
It won't matter.

JordansBulls
08-11-2012, 06:38 PM
What does this point have to do with anything? It's not our fault our FO gets players like the Yankees...Lets say for example the Bulls FO in the 90s had Pippen, then acquired Olajuwan, then acquired Duncan to play with Jordan, would that really make Jordan that less of a player just because he played with 3 different Allstars/Superstars? I don't understand this point..


You and I both know that wouldn't help Jordan's legacy by any means.





He never made a bad point though.. The point is, every player needs help, every player needs a great team to win titles, I just hate it when people act like the 90s Bulls were pretty much the 1997-1998 Los Angeles Clippers but with Jordan... That was never the case, they had a great team AND had Jordan in it and the triangle fit them perfectly...

EDIT: I forgot to mention, if Kobe wins a title with this team, he would have officially won a title WITHOUT Phil Jackson and the triangle offense...;) I'll let that sink in..

Not saying he doesn't need help, but like I said anyone can win with a player as good or better than you on the team.

Hawkeye15
08-11-2012, 06:38 PM
Its funny how Kobe constantly gets bashed for having good/great teammates but some guy from Chicago won with the best two way SF at the time and the greatest rebounding/defensive PF ever, as well as 3 point shooting champs and a six man of the year candidate......

If you want to compare the two, one of them was the best player not only on his own team, but the entire world each and every time he went to the finals, going 6-0 when he got there. Oh, and on far better numbers each and every year.

To be one of the best players, or at least recognized as such, you need to be on stacked teams to some degree. Kobe has had more roster support than anyone in the NBA during his tenure. This is a fact. Should we downplay his accomplishments? Of course not. But his rings also can not be used as a determining factor over players that haven't had anywhere near the roster support he has. That is where I have a problem. I also have a problem with Kobephiles blowing off his help like it wasn't ELITE.

THE MTL
08-11-2012, 06:39 PM
If kobe does manage to get his sixth ring, i would put an asterisk nxt to this one. Its not the same as Jordan's six rings.

Hawkeye15
08-11-2012, 06:40 PM
Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest players in NBA History, how is losing in his 17th year going to "automatically" exclude him from the top 10?

hahaha, exactly dude. His legacy is set in stone. I don't care if he comes out in game 1 of the finals and takes a dump at center court, and yells, "peace *****es, I am out!", and leaves the game for good. He is a top 10 player ever.

beliges
08-11-2012, 06:40 PM
Again he isn't being downplayed and no one answered the question. How is it that he has gotten 3 allstars/superstars in there prime in different intervals of his career? No one else ever played with something like that and I'm talking about elite superstars two guys who are arguably top 3 and another guy top 10 all guys who were allstars in there primes even before going to the Lakers.

Edit: This all started because Tony_Starks started mentioning the Bulls. All I had said is that Kobe still is top 10 no matter what.

Wilt had that in LA.

Russell had that in Boston.

Magic had that in LA.

MJ had a top 50 player alongside him for all 6 rings.

Lebron has that now.

Kobe has had that for his first 3 titles in Shaq.

Bird had that in Boston.

Really nothing our of the ordinary for all the greats that have ever played. Dont see why you are trying to paint it as a negative for Kobe while every other player in the top 10 of all time have had incredible teams and teammates, and in most instances, more talent around them than Kobe.

Hawkeye15
08-11-2012, 06:42 PM
Wilt had that in LA.

Russell had that in Boston.

Magic had that in LA.

MJ had a top 50 player alongside him for all 6 rings.

Lebron has that now.

Kobe has had that for his first 3 titles in Shaq.

Bird had that in Boston.

Really nothing our of the ordinary for all the greats that have ever played. Dont see why you are trying to paint it as a negative for Kobe while every other player in the top 10 of all time have had incredible teams and teammates, and in most instances, more talent around them than Kobe.

Finally, you make a post you and I agree on totally and completely.

championships
08-11-2012, 06:42 PM
They won't fail :laugh2:

Silly Haters are digging deep.

JordansBulls
08-11-2012, 06:45 PM
Wilt had that in LA.

Russell had that in Boston.

Magic had that in LA.

MJ had a top 50 player alongside him for all 6 rings.

Lebron has that now.

Kobe has had that for his first 3 titles in Shaq.

Bird had that in Boston.

Really nothing our of the ordinary for all the greats that have ever played. Dont see why you are trying to paint it as a negative for Kobe while every other player in the top 10 of all time have had incredible teams and teammates, and in most instances, more talent around them than Kobe.

One correction. Pippen was not a top 50 player when the Bulls won there first few titles nor was proven. So saying he was for all 6 is inaccurate.

And my point isn't that Kobe can't have talent, it is the fact that 3 times he had had an elite player on the team in Shaq, then Gasol and now Dwight.

KnicksorBust
08-11-2012, 06:59 PM
One correction. Pippen was not a top 50 player when the Bulls won there first few titles nor was proven. So saying he was for all 6 is inaccurate.

And my point isn't that Kobe can't have talent, it is the fact that 3 times he had had an elite player on the team in Shaq, then Gasol and now Dwight.

How many rings would MJ have won with Dwight instead of Pippen?

C-Style
08-11-2012, 07:00 PM
If kobe does manage to get his sixth ring, i would put an asterisk nxt to this one. Its not the same as Jordan's six rings.

same reason I have one next to Bron's

--23--
08-11-2012, 07:05 PM
One correction. Pippen was not a top 50 player when the Bulls won there first few titles nor was proven. So saying he was for all 6 is inaccurate.

And my point isn't that Kobe can't have talent, it is the fact that 3 times he had had an elite player on the team in Shaq, then Gasol and now Dwight.

thank you :clap:

LAKERMANIA
08-11-2012, 07:07 PM
One correction. Pippen was not a top 50 player when the Bulls won there first few titles nor was proven. So saying he was for all 6 is inaccurate.

And my point isn't that Kobe can't have talent, it is the fact that 3 times he had had an elite player on the team in Shaq, then Gasol and now Dwight.

Dude only one of Shaq, Gasol or Dwight are top 50 of all time, and that was for 3 titles... Jordan had a top 50 Pippen for 3 titles too.. I would even argue 4

JordansBulls
08-11-2012, 07:12 PM
Dude only one of Shaq, Gasol or Dwight are top 50 of all time, and that was for 3 titles... Jordan had a top 50 Pippen for 3 titles too.. I would even argue 4

Actually all 3 of Shaq, Gasol and Dwight can be considered top 50 and we know Nash is. But that is irrelevant here as both Shaq and Dwight were top 3 players in the league and have led teams to the finals as the hands down best on there teams.

Gasol led the Lakers in Win Shares each of the 3 full seasons he was there (from 2009 to 2011)
He finished 2nd in the league in 2011 in it, led the Lakers in both PER and Win Shares in 2010
and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares in 2010 while having a 24.0 PER in the playoffs and
posted a 25.5 PER in the 2010 finals. Had over a 4.3 Win Share in 2009 as well in the playoffs.

He wasn't a superstar by name, but that is superstar production and even had greater production than his own teammate in some of those years.

LAKERMANIA
08-11-2012, 07:17 PM
Actually all 3 of Shaq, Gasol and Dwight can be considered top 50 and we know Nash is. But that is irrelevant here as both Shaq and Dwight were top 3 players in the league and have led teams to the finals as the hands down best on there teams.

Gasol led the Lakers in Win Shares each of the 3 full seasons he was there (from 2009 to 2011)
He finished 2nd in the league in 2011 in it, led the Lakers in both PER and Win Shares in 2010
and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares in 2010 while having a 24.0 PER in the playoffs and
posted a 25.5 PER in the 2010 finals. Had over a 4.3 Win Share in 2009 as well in the playoffs.

He wasn't a superstar by name, but that is superstar production and even had greater production than his own teammate in some of those years.

If you're not a superstar by name, you're not a superstar, Pau can lead win shares from now until he retires, he still wont be a superstar, Pau as the main guy in Memphis couldn't get ONE playoff win... NOT ONE.... That isn't superstar to me or anyone else, spin it anyway you want, it's the truth..

RaiderLakersA's
08-11-2012, 07:35 PM
This will be the 2nd time around he will be playing with 3 other future Hall of Fame players. If he loses his 3rd NBA Finals, and specifically is a source of conflict in the team's locker room, what would happen to his legacy?

Would it automatically exclude him from top 10 all-time discussion because he would go down as a selfish player?

Kobe's legacy is already set in stone. Anything that happens after winning his 5th title is just gravy. Nothing bad can affect it.

I take that back. If Kobe should turn out to be a genocidal cannibal maniac who has been quietly using the money from his lucrative career to practice vampire cloning, yeah, that might alter his NBA legacy. But it would take something that extreme.

And for the record, the Lakers lost to Detroit because Malone was injured and the Glove couldn't figure out how to work the triangle. Neither of those factors had anything to do with Kobe.

xxplayerxx23
08-11-2012, 07:41 PM
Top 10-15 ever to play the game.

xxplayerxx23
08-11-2012, 07:42 PM
If you're not a superstar by name, you're not a superstar, Pau can lead win shares from now until he retires, he still wont be a superstar, Pau as the main guy in Memphis couldn't get ONE playoff win... NOT ONE.... That isn't superstar to me or anyone else, spin it anyway you want, it's the truth..

So Kevin Love by your Logic isn't a superstar?

RaiderLakersA's
08-11-2012, 07:43 PM
If kobe does manage to get his sixth ring, i would put an asterisk nxt to this one. Its not the same as Jordan's six rings.

Then you better put an asterisk next to Jordan's, too...because they're not the same as Bill Russell's.

(See what I did there?)

LAKERMANIA
08-11-2012, 07:48 PM
So Kevin Love by your Logic isn't a superstar?

Kevin Love is a superstar by name, Pau isn't...

Tony_Starks
08-11-2012, 07:59 PM
The real question should be how great will Kobe be regarded if they win it all this year and he proves that virtually every great player he played with he made them better. All this from someone labeled a "selfish" player.......

xxplayerxx23
08-11-2012, 08:20 PM
Kevin Love is a superstar by name, Pau isn't...

I disagree. Gasol's name was always superstar up until last year.

Raph12
08-11-2012, 08:20 PM
He's saying all of the right things, let's see if he does all of the right things on the court.

Aust
08-11-2012, 08:37 PM
I disagree. Gasol's name was always superstar up until last year.

Really??
I thought a superstar player was a player you could build around and win chips with. I always pegged Gasol as just a star player

xxplayerxx23
08-11-2012, 08:39 PM
Really??
I thought a superstar player was a player you could build around and win chips with. I always pegged Gasol as just a star player

In his prime I believe he could win a championship with the right supporting cast around him, a legit scoring option and solid defenders and role players. Maybe thats just me?

KnicksorBust
08-11-2012, 09:02 PM
Top 10-15 ever to play the game.

Kobe's already higher than that.

I do agree with the Gasol talk. He's one of the most underrated players of all-time.

xxplayerxx23
08-11-2012, 09:11 PM
Kobe's already higher than that.

I do agree with the Gasol talk. He's one of the most underrated players of all-time.

Oh Really? There were some many greats I didn't think he would be higher then top 10 yet. And exactly people forget how dominate he was and talk like he isnt a top 4 PF anymore..

Chronz
08-11-2012, 09:13 PM
Depends on the example he sets in the regular season. If hes still an elite player then fails to perform in the playoffs, he may get the blame. Still Im with everyone saying its Dwights team now so he will carry the blame/success the most.

Still on a team with this many stars, I cant see just 1 player taking the blame, if the Lakers fail it will be a result of the collective failure of the group.

Aust
08-11-2012, 09:16 PM
Mike Brown needs to manage Pau's minutes, especially if Dwight misses a lot of time. Pau has been straight up fatigued the past two seasons when the playoffs came around. I'm not saying that was the only factor(trade rumors, heart on sleeve), but it played a large role.

Chronz
08-11-2012, 09:41 PM
Then you better put an asterisk next to Jordan's, too...because they're not the same as Bill Russell's.

(See what I did there?)

Can you explain this dig? It sounds like your trying to say MJ had more help than Russ the way hes saying Kobe had more help than MJ but that cant be right.

beasted86
08-12-2012, 12:11 AM
The real question should be how great will Kobe be regarded if they win it all this year and he proves that virtually every great player he played with he made them better. All this from someone labeled a "selfish" player.......

:confused:

There are a number of star players Kobe played with who played worse as a direct result of Kobe and conflicted with him and or fought him for touches and limited their impact and efficiency.

Eddie Jones
Glen Rice
Payton
Malone
Caron Butler
Artest


All of those players I just listed were better players, and namely all-stars / borderline all-stars directly before or after playing with Kobe. Seriously I'd really like to know who this is you are talking about he made better, and I'm not talking about low level role players, so don't bother talking about names like Derek Fisher and Trevor Ariza.... or dare talk about bums like Smush Parker.

beasted86
08-12-2012, 12:16 AM
Anyway to put my own opinion into my own topic... I don't think it will necessarily tarnish his legacy as much as finalize the stigma he has already carried.

If he is a direct cause of this thing blowing up in the Lakers' faces, he will go down as a great, but selfish player who could have had probably 8 championships if he wasn't as selfish.

Avenged
08-12-2012, 01:59 AM
Anyway to put my own opinion into my own topic... I don't think it will necessarily tarnish his legacy as much as finalize the stigma he has already carried.

If he is a direct cause of this thing blowing up in the Lakers' faces, he will go down as a great, but selfish player who could have had probably 8 championships if he wasn't as selfish.

Maybe. If it wasn't his fault they lose, then I don't think he will carry that with him. Plenty of things can go wrong, not just Kobe hogging the ball.

beliges
08-12-2012, 02:49 AM
Anyway to put my own opinion into my own topic... I don't think it will necessarily tarnish his legacy as much as finalize the stigma he has already carried.

If he is a direct cause of this thing blowing up in the Lakers' faces, he will go down as a great, but selfish player who could have had probably 8 championships if he wasn't as selfish.

The guys has won 5 championships playing "selfish" ball as you like to call it. You know, there comes a time when someone admits they were just plain wrong and they move on from it. Now that Kobe has the supporting cast around him to compete with Miami, people are trying to diminish his accomplishments by calling him selfish. The dude has won 5 titles playing his way. Not the way you think he should play. You realize he is the most dominant player of his generation? Not one player from his era was able to achieve as much success as he has. Do you even take this into consideration when criticizing the dude? What else do you expect him to do? Youre saying he could have won 8 titles if he wasnt selfish. Well, let me tell you this, if he won 8 titles, he would be the greatest player to ever play the game. Hes simply not that guy. Thats why he didnt win 8 titles. Even the best player to ever play the game, playing alongside a top 50 player of all time couldnt crack 8 titles.

Just end the mindless criticism and enjoy the man's greatness. He is the last of a dying breed in this league. They dont make players like Kobe anymore. Its gonna be a very very long time before you see someone carry their team 5 titles during his era.

#1chickhearnfan
08-12-2012, 02:57 AM
No

#1chickhearnfan
08-12-2012, 02:58 AM
I don't think so

ichitownclowni
08-12-2012, 03:04 AM
The question should be how will Dwight Howard's legacy be affected.

raiderposting
08-12-2012, 03:39 AM
there is a reason kobe is the most liked nba player overseas, other countries can actually respect greatness.

C-Style
08-12-2012, 08:10 AM
I can't believe this guy is discrediting a HOF Bulls legend in Pippen just to prop up Jordan.

Pippen was a product of his own hard work and dedication, had nothing to do with MJ making who he is now.

Pippen was a top 5 player in the 90's. He nearly carried the Bulls to the Finals on his own without a 2nd option close to his caliver.

C-Style
08-12-2012, 09:09 AM
:confused:

There are a number of star players Kobe played with who played worse as a direct result of Kobe and conflicted with him and or fought him for touches and limited their impact and efficiency.

Eddie Jones
Glen Rice
Payton
Malone
Caron Butler
Artest


All of those players I just listed were better players, and namely all-stars / borderline all-stars directly before or after playing with Kobe. Seriously I'd really like to know who this is you are talking about he made better, and I'm not talking about low level role players, so don't bother talking about names like Derek Fisher and Trevor Ariza.... or dare talk about bums like Smush Parker.


GAWD!!! This post is full of bullshyt.

1. Eddie Jones? He was traded because Kobe was the much better player, and Kobe needed to start. Jones was just entering his prime and was given a legit opportunity with Hornets, His FGA increased by a result of that.

2. Glen Rice was a player who never understood the Triangle offense and could never get comfortable under Phil's system. It takes about 2 years to even learn to play the triangle. He played a total of 127 season games for the Lakers yet he still won a ring.

3. Gary Payton, much like Rice could never get a hang of the team system. He needed the ball in his hands, He was a player past his prime, and had became the 4th option behind, Shaq, Kobe & Malone.


4. Malone, was a productive 3rd option even though he was on his 19th & last season. Love it how the blame goes to Kobe even though you claim it was Shaq's team. Next


5. Caron Butler on playing with Kobe:
That was the best thing that ever could have happened for me personally for my career," said Butler,To play alongside a guy like that, see his preparation and what it takes to get to that level, that's why I was able to be so good in Washington. I took everything I learned from him, being under his wing, and took that to Washington and it made me very successful."

.....But check this out after shooting a low 41 and 38% playing alongside Wade, he had his 3rd best FG % with the .....Lakers @ 45%


6. Artest, really? Another guy who went from being a 1st-2nd option to a 4th option?
"I don't even care how much I score. I just want to win."


If you look at every role player and even bums that have played with Kobe, all of ther career FG's go up, then you see Lebrons & Wades and most of thers get worst. But you don't wanna hear that(doesn't fit ur agenda)

Gasol has had his best career FG% with Kobe same yr he was traded to L.A, he wen't from shooting 50 to 56%, from a very good player to an All-star

He made Ariza a great player and had his best years with L.A.

Lamar Odom went from 44% with Clippers to 43% with Wade to 49% with Kobe.

quade36
08-12-2012, 09:21 AM
Who cares....

The Doctor
08-12-2012, 10:05 AM
The guys has won 5 championships playing "selfish" ball as you like to call it. You know, there comes a time when someone admits they were just plain wrong and they move on from it. Now that Kobe has the supporting cast around him to compete with Miami, people are trying to diminish his accomplishments by calling him selfish. The dude has won 5 titles playing his way. Not the way you think he should play. You realize he is the most dominant player of his generation? Not one player from his era was able to achieve as much success as he has. Do you even take this into consideration when criticizing the dude? What else do you expect him to do? Youre saying he could have won 8 titles if he wasnt selfish. Well, let me tell you this, if he won 8 titles, he would be the greatest player to ever play the game. Hes simply not that guy. Thats why he didnt win 8 titles. Even the best player to ever play the game, playing alongside a top 50 player of all time couldnt crack 8 titles.

Just end the mindless criticism and enjoy the man's greatness. He is the last of a dying breed in this league. They dont make players like Kobe anymore. Its gonna be a very very long time before you see someone carry their team 5 titles during his era.

This is dead on. Haters wont respond to you. You just took all of their ammo.

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-12-2012, 10:59 AM
If kobe does manage to get his sixth ring, i would put an asterisk nxt to this one. Its not the same as Jordan's six rings.

And why an asterisk? If ur saying because of all the talent on the team then that's just dumb, what people don't remember is Jordan had probably the most complete teams during those championship years, the chemistry he had with his team was amazing!

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-12-2012, 11:02 AM
One correction. Pippen was not a top 50 player when the Bulls won there first few titles nor was proven. So saying he was for all 6 is inaccurate.

And my point isn't that Kobe can't have talent, it is the fact that 3 times he had had an elite player on the team in Shaq, then Gasol and now Dwight.

Damn Dude why are u always making it seems like Jordan did it all by himself? He didn't he needed a lot of help as well and hey just remember Jordan didn't win a championship until pippen arrived and Kobe teams as te man in 09-10 were never better then one of Jordan's 6 championship teams and pau gasol has never been elite! Elite players are the top 5-7 player in the league pau was never a top 5-7 player...

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-12-2012, 11:05 AM
Top 10-15 ever to play the game.

10 to 15 lol
He's easily in the top 7 players anything else like a championship will put him in the top 5

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-12-2012, 11:06 AM
I disagree. Gasol's name was always superstar up until last year.

I never thought of gasol as a superstar I always thought of him as an all-star but never a super star

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-12-2012, 11:13 AM
:confused:

There are a number of star players Kobe played with who played worse as a direct result of Kobe and conflicted with him and or fought him for touches and limited their impact and efficiency.

Eddie Jones
Glen Rice
Payton
Malone
Caron Butler
Artest


All of those players I just listed were better players, and namely all-stars / borderline all-stars directly before or after playing with Kobe. Seriously I'd really like to know who this is you are talking about he made better, and I'm not talking about low level role players, so don't bother talking about names like Derek Fisher and Trevor Ariza.... or dare talk about bums like Smush Parker.

Lol Eddie jones didn't play worse Kobe was just taking playing time away from him.

Glen rice he was past his prime

Gary Payton you can't be serious? Blaming it on Kobe lol first of all he was past his prime secondly the triangle didn't fit his style of play at all

Malone really? He was having a really good year until he got injured plus what did you expect? 25-10 from him as a 3rd option? That's just not honna happen

Caron butler your joking right? Caron always credits Kobe for helping him out on his game, he said Kobe made him the player he is today, he credits a lot of his success to Kobe, heck Kobe Caron were like best friends on the team

And artest well it was obvious artest hasn't been the player he once was after he joined the lakers, but it has to do with a lot of things, he wasn't the primary ball handler like he used to be, he was never a spot up shooter and with the lakers he basically is,his defense while still good isn't what it used to be but blaming it on kobe is funny.

Heck he even made smush Parker look like a decent pg lol

C-Style
08-26-2012, 07:21 AM
I disagree. Gasol's name was always superstar up until last year.

lol really? Superstars get great shoe deals,


Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Bron, Dwight, Paul, Durant Magic, Bird, Jordan, Rose, Garnett, Duncan, Barlkey, Malone, Stockton, These are or were superstars. Do u honestly think Gasol fits in the group?

Iron24th
08-26-2012, 07:26 AM
GAWD!!! This post is full of bullshyt.

1. Eddie Jones? He was traded because Kobe was the much better player, and Kobe needed to start. Jones was just entering his prime and was given a legit opportunity with Hornets, His FGA increased by a result of that.

2. Glen Rice was a player who never understood the Triangle offense and could never get comfortable under Phil's system. It takes about 2 years to even learn to play the triangle. He played a total of 127 season games for the Lakers yet he still won a ring.

3. Gary Payton, much like Rice could never get a hang of the team system. He needed the ball in his hands, He was a player past his prime, and had became the 4th option behind, Shaq, Kobe & Malone.


4. Malone, was a productive 3rd option even though he was on his 19th & last season. Love it how the blame goes to Kobe even though you claim it was Shaq's team. Next


5. Caron Butler on playing with Kobe:

.....But check this out after shooting a low 41 and 38% playing alongside Wade, he had his 3rd best FG % with the .....Lakers @ 45%


6. Artest, really? Another guy who went from being a 1st-2nd option to a 4th option?


If you look at every role player and even bums that have played with Kobe, all of ther career FG's go up, then you see Lebrons & Wades and most of thers get worst. But you don't wanna hear that(doesn't fit ur agenda)

Gasol has had his best career FG% with Kobe same yr he was traded to L.A, he wen't from shooting 50 to 56%, from a very good player to an All-star

He made Ariza a great player and had his best years with L.A.

Lamar Odom went from 44% with Clippers to 43% with Wade to 49% with Kobe.


great post.

SirSkyHook
08-26-2012, 09:13 AM
Its funny how that Bulls fan tries to downplay Jordans help, and over do Kobe's help lol. That fact he tries to say Pippen wasnt elite Jordan's first three rings if idiotic. I really question the age of some Bulls fans on this site, and wander if the have been brainwashed by today's media. I will show how important Pippen was to Jordan......

1. Jordan's teams were sub .500 until Pip was drafted, which gave Jordan his first 50 win team. You can say Pips numbers werent impressive that year, but what you dont see is how he began to play the opponets best perimeter player which made Jordan's life ALOT easier.

2. This piggy backs number 1. In the 91 finals game one Magic had 19pts 11ast 10rebs on wait get this 80% shooting from the field!!!!!!! Phil didnt opt to put Jordan on Magic the next game and remainder of the series to slow him down, he put Pippen on him. But but but Jordans the best defender ever known to man, what was Phil thinking!?!?!?!?! He was thinking Magics killing us i need to put my best defender on this guy :speechless: go figure it was Pippen :eyebrow:
Magic would still average 18pts 8rebs 12ast, because hey he's Magic, but he would do it on 43% from the field on close to 5to's a game. Also while everyone tells you Jordan averaged 31pts 6.6rebs 11ast they never mention Pip average 20.8pts 9.4rebs 6.6ast 2.4stls for the series. Saying he wasnt elite at that point is delusional.

3. When MJ left to take a break playing an less physicaly demanding sport to imo rest his body, Pip was minutes away from taking that Jordanless team to the ECF i believe, so people cant put him on Gasols level becuase he couldnt get a W to save his life in the playoffs prior to La la land, and I love Gasol, but fact is fact.

Look i'm not trying to put Mj and Kobe on te same level but people need to realize MJ didnt do it alone, in fact he had a top 50 alltime player in pip who in my opinion as a Magic and Kobe fan, was and is the best onball defender ever. Also name a team that was deeper than Mj's Championship team's at that time. The first three was full of shooters look up Paxton and 3x 3pt shooting champ Craig Hodges, and the last 3 was by far deeper than everyone else at the time with the best scorer in MJ, the best defender in Pip, and the best rebounder in The Worm, and great role players to fill out the roster.

SirSkyHook
08-26-2012, 10:07 AM
Also I dont see Kobe's legacy or top ten spot being at risk if they lose but i do see him getting more respect if they win and he's MVP

TheLegend
08-26-2012, 10:16 AM
This will be the 2nd time around he will be playing with 3 other future Hall of Fame players. If he loses his 3rd NBA Finals, and specifically is a source of conflict in the team's locker room, what would happen to his legacy?

Would it automatically exclude him from top 10 all-time discussion because he would go down as a selfish player?

No! He has 5 titles and one of the best SG's ever. His legacy is secure.

TheLegend
08-26-2012, 10:24 AM
Also, to the younger group on here that says things like "Its on Howard". No it's not! If they lose its on the Lakers. They have Kobe, Nash, and Gasol. And to place blame on any one player is a little childish and shows a lack of understanding of the game. If the Lakers lose it's on the Lakers. Win as a team, lose as a team. Howard can go out and put up 25 and 20 with 5 blocks and they could still lose. If they lose it's because the other team was better.

Hawkeye15
08-26-2012, 10:47 AM
Legacy won't be changed either way. He is 34, with a ton of mileage. Unless he finds the fountain of youth, he is clearly not his teams best player anymore, and if they end up losing this year and next, he still has 5 rings with great numbers over a 14 year span.

Kobe's spot on the all time list will hold steady either way.

SirSkyHook
08-26-2012, 11:34 AM
One correction. Pippen was not a top 50 player when the Bulls won there first few titles nor was proven. So saying he was for all 6 is inaccurate.

And my point isn't that Kobe can't have talent, it is the fact that 3 times he had had an elite player on the team in Shaq, then Gasol and now Dwight.

Sooo wrong its not even funny.

91 Finals
MJ - 31pts 6.6rebs 11.4ast 2.8stls 1.4blks
Pip - 20.8pts 9.4rebs 6.6ast 2.4stls 1blk also held Magic to 43% while shooting 45%

92 Finals
MJ - 35.8pts 4.8rebs 6.5ast 1.7stls .3blks
Pip - 20.8 pts 8.3rebs 7.7ast 1.5stls .7blks held Drexler to 40% while shooting 48%

93 Finals
MJ - 41.0pts 8.5rebs 6.3ast 1.7stls .7blks
Pip -21.2pts 9.2rebs 7.7ast 2stls 1blks

How can you post such direspectful garbage about one of your own and call yourself a bulls fan? I know you love you some Jordan but without Pippen he's not the Jordan you have today. Show some respect!!!

SirSkyHook
08-26-2012, 11:42 AM
One correction. Pippen was not a top 50 player when the Bulls won there first few titles nor was proven. So saying he was for all 6 is inaccurate.

And my point isn't that Kobe can't have talent, it is the fact that 3 times he had had an elite player on the team in Shaq, then Gasol and now Dwight.

Also I would say its harder to win with three different players at different times prime or not, with three different personalities, three different stlyes,and three different tendencies than it is to win with one who you know in and out on the court, and been through battles with leaving no mystery to how they will react to pressure situations, wouldnt you?

LA_Raiders
08-26-2012, 11:50 AM
he has nothing to prove; but he wont let the Lakets lose...

Sactown
08-26-2012, 12:01 PM
Not at all, this is Dwights time to cement himself in history and build towards his legacy

beliges
08-26-2012, 12:39 PM
Well nothing can really change Kobe being the most dominant player in terms of winning of his generation. He's cemented himself as a top 8 of all time. Winning another, depending on how it goes down, will very likely take him up in that top 5 category. He's got nothing to lose at this point because he's already done it all. Just adding to that legacy in his 17th season. Pretty remarkable.

DODGERS&LAKERS
08-26-2012, 02:11 PM
If anything, it helps his legacy. It shows how important it was to be at the top of his game to be able to win 5 times. This is Dwights team and he has a great supporting cast. Let's see what he can do with great help. Just having a good supporting cast does not mean you are a lock to win

NBAFan2012
08-26-2012, 09:25 PM
Grow up.

dh144498
08-30-2012, 12:42 PM
This will be the 2nd time around he will be playing with 3 other future Hall of Fame players. If he loses his 3rd NBA Finals, and specifically is a source of conflict in the team's locker room, what would happen to his legacy?

Would it automatically exclude him from top 10 all-time discussion because he would go down as a selfish player?

If he singlehandedly cost the Lakers to lose, like going 6/24 or something, then people will ridicule him for a while, but his place won't change. He's already proven to everyone he can win and he has won in the past. 3 times as the greatest 2nd option of all time, and 2 times as the man. A past prime Kobe's legacy wouldn't get hurt.

Plus doesn't everyone say Dwight Howard is the centerpiece of the team? So wouldn't the pressure actually be on him? :eyebrow:

dh144498
08-30-2012, 12:44 PM
Sooo wrong its not even funny.

91 Finals
MJ - 31pts 6.6rebs 11.4ast 2.8stls 1.4blks
Pip - 20.8pts 9.4rebs 6.6ast 2.4stls 1blk also held Magic to 43% while shooting 45%

92 Finals
MJ - 35.8pts 4.8rebs 6.5ast 1.7stls .3blks
Pip - 20.8 pts 8.3rebs 7.7ast 1.5stls .7blks held Drexler to 40% while shooting 48%

93 Finals
MJ - 41.0pts 8.5rebs 6.3ast 1.7stls .7blks
Pip -21.2pts 9.2rebs 7.7ast 2stls 1blks

How can you post such direspectful garbage about one of your own and call yourself a bulls fan? I know you love you some Jordan but without Pippen he's not the Jordan you have today. Show some respect!!!

Pippen gets so underrated by Jordan fans it's crazy. he's only a 20-23ppg player but he brings so much more than that to the floor.

dh144498
08-30-2012, 12:48 PM
One correction. Pippen was not a top 50 player when the Bulls won there first few titles nor was proven. So saying he was for all 6 is inaccurate.

And my point isn't that Kobe can't have talent, it is the fact that 3 times he had had an elite player on the team in Shaq, then Gasol and now Dwight.

Don't forget that Kobe made Gasol the player he was right when he jumped to the Lakers.

Hawkeye15
08-30-2012, 01:50 PM
Don't forget that Kobe made Gasol the player he was right when he jumped to the Lakers.

no he didn't. That coincided with Gasol's prime, but he dominated Europe, as already an NBA all star, and it had more to do with Phil and the triangle that made him what he became. Gasol was never a #1 option, but when he slid to #2, where he belongs, his game got better.

Jesse2272
08-30-2012, 01:55 PM
Kobe is HOF bound regardless

Jackie Robinson
08-30-2012, 02:26 PM
Not one bit

Sly Guy
08-30-2012, 02:46 PM
puts him in the same class as adam morrison IMO. Makes him an awful player. Regardless of his 20,000+ career points, MVP, finals MVPs, 'ships, gold medals, and other accolades.

dh144498
08-30-2012, 03:03 PM
no he didn't. That coincided with Gasol's prime, but he dominated Europe, as already an NBA all star, and it had more to do with Phil and the triangle that made him what he became. Gasol was never a #1 option, but when he slid to #2, where he belongs, his game got better.

that's pure bogus. Explain to me what happened in 2008 when he was traded to LA. He shot 9 percent higher right when he switched to LA. So he just happened to enter his prime right when he got traded to LA? Coincidentally Kobe also became more of a team player from 2008 to roughly 2010 (compared to his previous and post 2peat years), which definitely helped create better looks for Gasol. But I guess that just happened to cross path with Gasol entering his peak right?

last stand
08-30-2012, 07:50 PM
One correction. Pippen was not a top 50 player when the Bulls won there first few titles nor was proven. So saying he was for all 6 is inaccurate.

And my point isn't that Kobe can't have talent, it is the fact that 3 times he had had an elite player on the team in Shaq, then Gasol and now Dwight.

Wait so pippen averaging 19ppg 7.5rpg 6apg, shooting 50% from the field with usage rates all above 20% and defensive ratings all better than Jordan's during the first 3 peat

And pippen wasn't an elite player or proven. In what world

By the way, statistically better than anything pau has ever averaged. Even in his best seasons

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-30-2012, 08:10 PM
Kobe is my all time favorite player, but the dude is declining. IMO it would not affect his legacy if he doesn't win a title. Lakers are my team, but Kobe has almost 2 decades of mileage on his body. Nash is old as dirt. Gasol has a ton of mileage from Fiba. Dwight is recovering from back surgery.

Don't get me wrong I like our chances but if OKC or Miami knock the Lakers out in the playoffs there isn't any shame.

I think your really over doing it man yes the lakers main stars are old besides Dwight but your making them out to be like they are on there last legs which they aren't Kobe is still a top 5 player and Nash and gasol are still all-star players... Give it time lakers will be alright

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-30-2012, 08:15 PM
I think Kobe will go all out this year. He wants to match Pippen's 6 rings.

Funny guess your still but hurt from the beating Kobe always hands to your team in the playoffs... He'll be matching Jordan's 6 rings not pippens

TheSource
08-30-2012, 08:45 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned it being on Mike Brown too (considerably), if they lose this year he's definitely getting fired. Before/after Mike Brown it's on Dwight Howard, as he's probably in the best shape out of everyone on the Lakers lineup and he better get what he has been crying to get for a long time.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-30-2012, 09:29 PM
Funny guess your still but hurt from the beating Kobe always hands to your team in the playoffs... He'll be matching Jordan's 6 rings not pippens

He's just mad because Nash is now a Laker and will do something in LA that he couldn't do in PHX.....BLING BLING!!!

beasted86
08-30-2012, 09:51 PM
puts him in the same class as adam morrison IMO. Makes him an awful player. Regardless of his 20,000+ career points, MVP, finals MVPs, 'ships, gold medals, and other accolades.

Kobe is a 1st ballot HOF player and top 20 regardless, but I think my original question has merit if they lose because of locker room conflict headed by Kobe.

A lot of people are on the fence as to whether they consider Kobe top 10 all time. And sort of as a related case Iverson's ranking all time and overall legacy has taken a big hit because he's gone down as a me-first player.

Kevj77
08-31-2012, 02:03 AM
Kobe is a 1st ballot HOF player and top 20 regardless, but I think my original question has merit if they lose because of locker room conflict headed by Kobe.

A lot of people are on the fence as to whether they consider Kobe top 10 all time. And sort of as a related case Iverson's ranking all time and overall legacy has taken a big hit because he's gone down as a me-first player.

Really? Already talking what if. Let me ask you a question "what if" LA makes it to the finals and loses, but Kobe isn't a douche and instead is a perfect teammate? They just lose to the Heat in a good fought finals or even in a tough WCF to OKC?

People always say championships are a team accomplishment. They use it against the Kobe has 5 rings arguement when it suits them and to protect Lebron from his time in Cleveland, but want to blame it on one player when it fits their own personal biases. Like Lebron haters did up until he won a title. Isn't this what you are trying to do to Kobe now based on a what if.

C-Style
08-31-2012, 02:58 AM
Kobe is a 1st ballot HOF player and top 20 regardless, but I think my original question has merit if they lose because of locker room conflict headed by Kobe.

A lot of dumb people are on the fence as to whether they consider Kobe top 10 all time. And sort of as a related case Iverson's ranking all time and overall legacy has taken a big hit because he's gone down as a me-first player.

fixed

dh144498
08-31-2012, 10:29 AM
fixed


:clap:
people who don't put Kobe in the top 10 have incredibly weird reasoning.

beliges
08-31-2012, 04:05 PM
:clap:
people who don't put Kobe in the top 10 have incredibly weird reasoning.

But his PER is not as high as some of the other players with high PER's.

Bravo95
08-31-2012, 04:19 PM
The only way Bryant's legacy is affected is if he hops in a time machine with a legitimate MVP type season, carrying this group to the title. Same goes for Nash. The only people who have anything to "lose" are Howard and Brown, IMO.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 04:20 PM
But his PER is not as high as some of the other players with high PER's.

completely forgot.

the real GOAT list:

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.24
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.70
7. Chris Paul 25.44
8. Bob Pettit 25.35
9. Tim Duncan 24.75
10. Neil Johnston 24.63

beliges
08-31-2012, 04:49 PM
completely forgot.

the real GOAT list:

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.24
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.70
7. Chris Paul 25.44
8. Bob Pettit 25.35
9. Tim Duncan 24.75
10. Neil Johnston 24.63

Yes, that Neil Johnson guy was soooooo much better than the "Other" Johnson. After all, he did have a higher all time PER.

Raps08-09 Champ
08-31-2012, 04:50 PM
He'll always be in the 7-10 range if he loses or wins 1-2 more rings.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 04:55 PM
Yes, that Neil Johnson guy was soooooo much better than the "Other" Johnson. After all, he did have a higher all time PER.

Bob Pettit top 10 greatest eva. :worthy::worthy:

Chronz
08-31-2012, 04:59 PM
I cant wait for the season to start, too many POS threads

beliges
08-31-2012, 04:59 PM
I cant wait for the season to start, too many POS threads

Only because there are too many POS posters.

dh144498
08-31-2012, 05:00 PM
I cant wait for the season to start, too many POS threads

inb4 more threads about Kobe. :laugh::laugh:

Chronz
08-31-2012, 05:02 PM
Only because there are too many POS posters
Thats taking it to the extreme, I blame boredom



inb4 more threads about Kobe. :laugh::laugh:
what?

dh144498
08-31-2012, 05:04 PM
Thats taking it to the extreme, I blame boredom



what?

will just be more threads like this after every game.

mavsman81
08-31-2012, 05:09 PM
Really??
I thought a superstar player was a player you could build around and win chips with. I always pegged Gasol as just a star player

They tried Gasol as a "superstar" in Memphis...it didnt work. Star is ok since he did help win the Lakers' last two chips

beliges
08-31-2012, 05:14 PM
Thats taking it to the extreme, I blame boredom



what?

LOL...all this did happen during the dog says of summer. All people have is baseball. That will make a person go a little crazy. Im hoping with the emergence of football again, things will start calming down.

beasted86
08-31-2012, 09:19 PM
fixed

No, just people who have a difference of opinion and aren't a nut-smuggling Kobe dickrider.

Not hate whatsoever on Kobe, but your comment just annoyed me since you are a biased Kobe fan. There is a lot of debate amongst great players all the time like Russell, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan, West, Erving, Oscar, etc... whether they are top 10 or not, so I don't see where Kobe has made this large distinction over any one of those players.

If Russell has 11 rings and is arguably the best defensive Center of all time and people debate all the time whether he is top 10, what has Kobe done to far distance himself from Russell where he doesn't get the same debates? It would be nice if you can actually put together a well thought out response for once.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-31-2012, 09:34 PM
:dance: Amnesty Kobe! :dance: