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kjoke
08-08-2012, 03:00 PM
When he was in Cleveland, or in Miami?

mRc08
08-08-2012, 03:05 PM
Easily heat, anyone who watch this years playoffs should agree. He had more responsibility on the cavs, but his all around game and closing ability has greatly increased.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 03:07 PM
He was individually more dominant in Cleveland out of neccesity, but his maturity and understanding of how to conserve his energy better for when it matters has been sharper in Miami.

Fairly equal, Cleveland if you are looking at raw numbers. Though, he was on pace before the closing stretch of the regular season to have his best season ever, but it slowed as the Heat went into "get stronger for the playoffs" mode.

justinnum1
08-08-2012, 03:08 PM
Now for sure. Mentally more than anything.

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 03:11 PM
The Heat because he has more help. He has another superstar on his team that can step up when he zones out or stops caring.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 03:13 PM
The Heat because he has more help. He has another superstar on his team that can step up when he zones out or stops caring.

Do you really think that is how it works? The more help you have, the less you have to kill yourself to will them to wins.

SteBO
08-08-2012, 03:14 PM
He was individually more dominant in Cleveland out of neccesity, but his maturity and understanding of how to conserve his energy better for when it matters has been sharper in Miami.

Fairly equal, Cleveland if you are looking at raw numbers. Though, he was on pace before the closing stretch of the regular season to have his best season ever, but it slowed as the Heat went into "get stronger for the playoffs" mode.
While this is true, a lot of it if not all of it has to do with the fact he knows he's got Dwyane Wade. I'm not diminishing his maturity and understanding in any way, but when your next best players are Antawn Jamison and Mo Williams he has no choice to but to assert himself more, as you stated in your first sentence. With Wade & Bosh, it's easy for him to conserve his efforts for when it really matters. That doesn't have as much to do with maturity as it does simply knowing what's necessary. It's same argument I've had with people in regards to the Durant/Westbrook dynamic.....

nycsports2
08-08-2012, 03:15 PM
def miami.. developed a mid range and post game also matured alot. much more respect for bron than i did a yr ago, he finally manned up

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 03:15 PM
Do you really think that is how it works? The more help you have, the less you have to kill yourself to will them to wins.

Yea, but im no Lebron apologist.

LongIslandIcedZ
08-08-2012, 03:16 PM
Athletic ability and statz? Probably Cleveland

Since taking his talents to south beach, he has become much more mature, while not losing much else.

I'll vote MIami.

Losoway
08-08-2012, 03:18 PM
lebron was good anywhere. He just got tired of cleveland owners using him to sell tickets rather then championships

lebron > Jordan

D12 fan
08-08-2012, 03:21 PM
Easily Miami,Lebron has now developed the clutch gene which is scary for the rest of the NBA.He was clutch in the NBA finals and he put Team USA on his back vs Lith. the other day.

I remember those people who were saying KD was the best player in the NBA,they were no where to be found after the Finals when Lebron owned KD.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 03:23 PM
While this is true, a lot of it if not all of it has to do with the fact he knows he's got Dwyane Wade. I'm not diminishing his maturity and understanding in any way, but when your next best players are Antawn Jamison and Mo Williams he has no choice to but to assert himself more, as you stated in your first sentence. With Wade & Bosh, it's easy for him to conserve his efforts for when it really matters. That doesn't have as much to do with maturity as it does simply knowing what's necessary. It's same argument I've had with people in regards to the Durant/Westbrook dynamic.....

Of course all this is true, I simply mean he has also learned that he needs to conserve throughout the season a bit better. That part is not only the help, but maturity. There was no reason Cleveland needed to go all out for 60 wins a season, to do so, LeBron had to exert way too much. It ended up hurthing them later.

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 03:24 PM
Easily Miami,Lebron has now developed the clutch gene which is scary for the rest of the NBA.He was clutch in the NBA finals and he put Team USA on his back vs Lith. the other day.

I remember those people who were saying KD was the best player in the NBA,they were no where to be found after the Finals when Lebron owned KD.

Give KD some time. Lebron was embarrased in the finals twice before this last one. And actually, the refs owned KD

justinnum1
08-08-2012, 03:25 PM
Easily Miami,Lebron has now developed the clutch gene which is scary for the rest of the NBA.He was clutch in the NBA finals and he put Team USA on his back vs Lith. the other day.

I remember those people who were saying KD was the best player in the NBA,they were no where to be found after the Finals when Lebron owned KD.

Yea, KD being better than lebron lasted all of about 2 days lol after okc won that first game.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 03:27 PM
Yea, but im no Lebron apologist.

so you think the best player in the NBA looked around, and said to himself, "I wonder where I can go play where I can zone out, not care, and find that elusive ring".

You are the opposite of a Bron apologist. For all the whining you do about Kobe haters, not one of them can touch you on your hating on this site.

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 03:30 PM
so you think the best player in the NBA looked around, and said to himself, "I wonder where I can go play where I can zone out, not care, and find that elusive ring".

You are the opposite of a Bron apologist. For all the whining you do about Kobe haters, not one of them can touch you on your hating on this site.

Your amazing man. So you dont think that Lebron chose to play with a top 3 player in the league at the time and former finals MVP in order to make winning easier? You think he chose to play with Wade and Bosh so winning could be harder? AND WHY ARE YOU MENTIONING KOBE????

SteBO
08-08-2012, 03:31 PM
Of course all this is true, I simply mean he has also learned that he needs to conserve throughout the season a bit better. That part is not only the help, but maturity. There was no reason Cleveland needed to go all out for 60 wins a season, to do so, LeBron had to exert way too much. It ended up hurthing them later.
Very true. But I also believe that only hurt him in his final year in CLE vs. Boston. In 2009, he averaged 38, 8, and 8 in the ECF vs. Orlando, insane PER, while all the moves CLE made prior to that year surrounding LBJ blew up in front of their face. Clearly, we did see a difference between LeBron's mentality last year as opposed to his runs in Cleveland, this time for the better. However, I just feel like it deals a lot with who his teammates are.....But we're pretty much in agreement here. I've had this discussion w/ people too many times.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 03:32 PM
Your amazing man. So you dont think that Lebron chose to play with a top 3 player in the league at the time and former finals MVP in order to make winning easier? You think he chose to play with Wade and Bosh so winning could be harder? AND WHY ARE YOU MENTIONING KOBE????

When did I say any of that?

I brought up Kobe to illustrate what a huge hypocrite you are.

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 03:42 PM
When did I say any of that?

I brought up Kobe to illustrate what a huge hypocrite you are.

Bringing up Kobe doesnt illustrate anything unless your going to point out a specific event that cooresponds with this topic. Quote me saying something about Kobe that makes me out to be a hypocrite in this thread. I'll wait forever.

And to your first point. You didnt say any of that, I was asking a question. I notice that when you feel your backed in a corner you try and play these strange word games. I simply asked you a question. "Do you think Lebron chose to play with a top 3 player in the league because it would be easier or harder to win?" Thats it. I asked that because the answer would go along with my first point. Your to obsssed with hating Kobe and Melo to have a decent convo about Lebron, a person in your eyes who can do no wrong.

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 03:44 PM
And your sig iilustrates exactly how i feel about advanced stats

justinnum1
08-08-2012, 03:55 PM
Bringing up Kobe doesnt illustrate anything unless your going to point out a specific event that cooresponds with this topic. Quote me saying something about Kobe that makes me out to be a hypocrite in this thread. I'll wait forever.

And to your first point. You didnt say any of that, I was asking a question. I notice that when you feel your backed in a corner you try and play these strange word games. I simply asked you a question. "Do you think Lebron chose to play with a top 3 player in the league because it would be easier or harder to win?" Thats it. I asked that because the answer would go along with my first point. Your to obsssed with hating Kobe and Melo to have a decent convo about Lebron, a person in your eyes who can do no wrong.

Not this thread, but you do it all the time.

Here you say kobe would make the 92 team but lebron wouldn't? lmao
:facepalm:


Carmelo and Kobe would make the 92 team. Thats it. And Paul

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 03:58 PM
Not this thread, but you do it all the time.

Here you say kobe would make the 92 team but lebron wouldn't? lmao
:facepalm:

A prime Kobe would make the 92 dream team.. he would'nt? And thats the best you could do? If i do it ALL THE TIME, im sure you can find something a little beter than that.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-08-2012, 04:00 PM
def miami.. developed a mid range and post game also matured alot. much more respect for bron than i did a yr ago, he finally manned up

Hi midrange is still wily inconsistent, his post game yes has gotten better. But as someone said, he's done a better job conserving energy, which thus has led to better production in the 4th.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-08-2012, 04:01 PM
so you think the best player in the NBA looked around, and said to himself, "I wonder where I can go play where I can zone out, not care, and find that elusive ring".



Well, he went to a place where he could share all that pressure with a guy who had already done it without him. But that's besides the point. ;)

SteBO
08-08-2012, 04:04 PM
Well, he went to a place where he could share all that pressure with a guy who had already done it without him. But that's besides the point. ;)
Well, considering all the pressure on the guy at the time, who can blame him? He would've been playing w/ serious fire had he stayed in CLE. It isn't his fault he wasn't fortunate enough to get drafted into a great situation. But that's neither here not there lol.......

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 04:04 PM
Bringing up Kobe doesnt illustrate anything unless your going to point out a specific event that cooresponds with this topic. Quote me saying something about Kobe that makes me out to be a hypocrite in this thread. I'll wait forever.

And to your first point. You didnt say any of that, I was asking a question. I notice that when you feel your backed in a corner you try and play these strange word games. I simply asked you a question. "Do you think Lebron chose to play with a top 3 player in the league because it would be easier or harder to win?" Thats it. I asked that because the answer would go along with my first point. Your to obsssed with hating Kobe and Melo to have a decent convo about Lebron, a person in your eyes who can do no wrong.

You basically said LeBron went to Miami so he could zone out and not care. That is a lazy player. That is ridiculous. Those were your words.

You will wait forever? Please. Anyone who says a negative thing about Kobe gets the following from you: "hater". Yet you are the biggest LeBron hater on the site. Hypocrite.

I am not obsessed with anything but basketball. I could care less ultimately about any of these players. Homers annoy me, rational seems to annoy you.

SteBO
08-08-2012, 04:05 PM
Well, he went to a place where he could share all that pressure with a guy who had already done it without him. But that's besides the point. ;)
Well, considering all the pressure on the guy at the time, who can blame him? He would've been playing w/ serious fire had he stayed in CLE. It isn't his fault he wasn't fortunate enough to get drafted into a great situation. But that's neither here not there lol.......

justinnum1
08-08-2012, 04:11 PM
A prime Kobe would make the 92 dream team.. he would'nt? And thats the best you could do? If i do it ALL THE TIME, im sure you can find something a little beter than that.

You weren't referring to a prime kobe, nice tro tho.

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 04:13 PM
You basically said LeBron went to Miami so he could zone out and not care. That is a lazy player. That is ridiculous. Those were your words.

You will wait forever? Please. Anyone who says a negative thing about Kobe gets the following from you: "hater". Yet you are the biggest LeBron hater on the site. Hypocrite.

I am not obsessed with anything but basketball. I could care less ultimately about any of these players. Homers annoy me, rational seems to annoy you.

Say what you want. Lebron Homers annoy me just as much. So i guess we annoy each other. And Lebron usually does zone out in the 4th quarter of big games. He doesn't? I'll call people "hater" when they say assanine things about Kobe or any other player. You just hate Kobe. Those are YOUR words.

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 04:13 PM
You weren't referring to a prime kobe, nice tro tho.

Why not?

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 04:16 PM
But look at how many excuses are being made for Lebron in this thread alone. You dont need a team full of superstars to win, you just need a team full of roll players that do what they are there for. The bulls are a perfect example of that. Every expert was picking Lebron and the Cavs to win pretty much every year. Jordanbulls already did the research on that. I didnt see any of you guys disputing that.

Sactown
08-08-2012, 04:20 PM
But look at how many excuses are being made for Lebron in this thread alone. You dont need a team full of superstars to win, you just need a team full of roll players that do what they are there for. The bulls are a perfect example of that. Every expert was picking Lebron and the Cavs to win pretty much every year. Jordanbulls already did the research on that. I didnt see any of you guys disputing that.

I would like to hear you name one player EVER who did it alone...

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 04:24 PM
I would like to hear you name one player EVER who did it alone...

Hows about I name a team that didnt have a superstar. The pistons. Not a true superstar anyway. And Dirk had a good team and good coach, there werent any other all stars on that mavs team. I'll wait for the excuses to pile in.

IKnowHoops
08-08-2012, 04:24 PM
Much Like Jordan, Lebron has been the best player in the league long before he ever won. Whether he be on the Heat, or the Cavs hes been the best player in the league for the last five or so years. The difference is the help.

Kobe had Shaq and won rings, then he had lamar odom and Coran butler and he missed the playoffs, then he got Bynum, and Gasol and he won rings.

Did Kobe get good with shaq, turn terrible without him, and then turn good again when he got Gasol and Bynum.

No, Kobe has always been great, Lebron has always been the best.

Stats tell you how good you are individually. Rings tell how good you and the rest of the players around you come together as a team.

The best player that ever lived wont win anything without great players around him. Obviously.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 04:25 PM
JB's research was crap, disproven numerous times by many of the respectable posters here. You are talking about a Chicago fan that wants to protect Jordan from any possible competition for GOAT. Um, he does the same with Kobe if you haven't noticed.

Jarvo
08-08-2012, 04:26 PM
Now, He's focused now and I won't be suprised Heat wins it again next year.

b@llhog24
08-08-2012, 04:30 PM
Cleveland. Mods should put up a poll though.

Lakersfan2483
08-08-2012, 04:32 PM
He's is better now, much more craftier and has a better understanding of how to take over games down the stretch. His understanding of how to win on the big stage and his overall confidence is better now also.
His game has improved as well, he now has a much better post game and actually has a midrange game, which he was lacking in Cleveland.

Sactown
08-08-2012, 04:32 PM
Hows about I name a team that didnt have a superstar. The pistons. Not a true superstar anyway. And Dirk had a good team and good coach, there werent any other all stars on that mavs team. I'll wait for the excuses to pile in.

Deepest team in the league, a Defensive player of the year candidate at C, 2 of the top 4 all time 3pt shooters, 2 1st ballot hall of famers, another DPOY candidate at SF. Yeah.. Dirk did it alone.

IKnowHoops
08-08-2012, 04:32 PM
Hows about I name a team that didnt have a superstar. The pistons. Not a true superstar anyway. And Dirk had a good team and good coach, there werent any other all stars on that mavs team. I'll wait for the excuses to pile in.

Jason Terry outballed dirk bigtime in that final game. Dirk was 1-12 in the first half and his team was still up. Thats the epitome of help bro. The pistons had four all stars that year.

Fail

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 04:34 PM
JB's research was crap, disproven numerous times by many of the respectable posters here. You are talking about a Chicago fan that wants to protect Jordan from any possible competition for GOAT. Um, he does the same with Kobe if you haven't noticed.

I cant take you serious anymore. He cited everything and backed up his argument. Its crap because it went against Lebron and JB is a Bulls fan? Im supposed to care about what respected PSD posters write? Come on man

IKnowHoops
08-08-2012, 04:34 PM
Jason Terry outballed dirk bigtime in that final game. Dirk was 1-12 in the first half and his team was still up. Thats the epitome of help bro. The pistons had four all stars that year.

Fail

I see you gave your own answer but the guys question was name someone who did it without help, and you failed to do so, just letting you know.

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 04:35 PM
Deepest team in the league, a Defensive player of the year candidate at C, 2 of the top 4 all time 3pt shooters, 2 1st ballot hall of famers, another DPOY candidate at SF. Yeah.. Dirk did it alone.

So your giving me carrer stats? lol.. Ok buddy. Again, any all stars on that team?

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 04:36 PM
This thread clearly shows a lack of understanding. Winning a ring doesn't make an individual any better. It means his teammates were at a level of competence to be able to help him win.

Basketball is a team sport. If you are going to gauge players on championships, go watch tennis.

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 04:38 PM
Jason Terry outballed dirk bigtime in that final game. Dirk was 1-12 in the first half and his team was still up. Thats the epitome of help bro. The pistons had four all stars that year.

Fail

lol@ fail. You failed english obviously. Anyway, none of those Pistons were SUPERSTARS. They made the all-star game because they had the best record in the league i believe that year. They played great as a TEAM. And you pointing out 1 game where terry outplayed Dirk means nothing. Im talking about overall.. Jason Terry is a bench player. Come on man

Sactown
08-08-2012, 04:39 PM
Hows about I name a team that didnt have a superstar. The pistons. Not a true superstar anyway. And Dirk had a good team and good coach, there werent any other all stars on that mavs team. I'll wait for the excuses to pile in.

The Pistons whole starting 5 made the All Star team...

bucketss
08-08-2012, 04:40 PM
I cant take you serious anymore. He cited everything and backed up his argument. Its crap because it went against Lebron and JB is a Bulls fan? Im supposed to care about what respected PSD posters write? Come on man

do you know who jb is? this guy would say anything to protect jordans legacy even though it doesn't need protection. Who are the two best wing players since jordan? lebron and kobe. He will do anything even twist logic to discredit those two players even make threads where those players are set up to fail. Never take what he says seriously.

KB-Pau-DH2012
08-08-2012, 04:40 PM
The Pistons whole starting 5 made the All Star team...

Not Tayshaun Prince.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 04:43 PM
do you know who jb is? this guy would say anything to protect jordans legacy even though it doesn't need protection. Who are the two best wing players since jordan? lebron and kobe. He will do anything even twist logic to discredit those two players even make threads where those players are set up to fail. Never take what he says seriously.

check out a poll he creates where Kobe is an option. Its setup for Kobe to lose every time.

b@llhog24
08-08-2012, 04:44 PM
Not Tayshaun Prince.

Even still he's all-star caliber.

Sactown
08-08-2012, 04:45 PM
So your giving me carrer stats? lol.. Ok buddy. Again, any all stars on that team?

I didn't say there needed to be an all star.. I said NOBODY HAS DONE IT ALONE.. Without one of, Tyson Chandler, Marion, Kidd, JJ, Stevenson. They don't win that ring, and 3 of those 5 had almost an equal impact as Dirk himself..

bucketss
08-08-2012, 04:46 PM
I cant take you serious anymore. He cited everything and backed up his argument. Its crap because it went against Lebron and JB is a Bulls fan? Im supposed to care about what respected PSD posters write? Come on man

he also cited and back up arguments that said pau gasol was the mvp of the 2009 and 2010 finals is it crap? how do you feel about that?

IKnowHoops
08-08-2012, 04:47 PM
lol@ fail. You failed english obviously. Anyway, none of those Pistons were SUPERSTARS. They made the all-star game because they had the best record in the league i believe that year. They played great as a TEAM. And you pointing out 1 game where terry outplayed Dirk means nothing. Im talking about overall.. Jason Terry is a bench player. Come on man

Well then you had a guy that came off the bench, outperformed your best player and won the game for you.

Are you just gonna close your eyes every time your wrong.

How can Dirk go 1-12 in the first half and his team be winning, and you still sit there and say he had no help.

Your in denial, its ok

SteBO
08-08-2012, 04:47 PM
I didn't say there needed to be an all star.. I said NOBODY HAS DONE IT ALONE.. Without one of, Tyson Chandler, Marion, Kidd, JJ, Stevenson. They don't win that ring, and 3 of those 5 had almost an equal impact as Dirk himself..
Tyson Chandler is the biggest reason why we aren't at the point where LeBron vs. Kobe all-time isn't a legitimate debate at the moment....

Sactown
08-08-2012, 04:49 PM
Not Tayshaun Prince.

You're right, but he is an NBA champion and he's a 4 time defensive 2nd team player....

JordansBulls
08-08-2012, 04:52 PM
So #23 Lebron or #6 Lebron

Losoway
08-08-2012, 04:53 PM
is this thread seriously still open???

Lebron is better now then when he was on the cavs . he plays way smarter and seasoned . when he was on the cavs he had to do everything and carry those bums every night

only difference between lebron on the cavs and lebron on the heat now is that he is smarter

bucketss
08-08-2012, 04:54 PM
i think if someone plays at an allstar caliber he should be considered an allstar you can't tell me tayshaun prince isn't an allstar but mo Williams is? allstar game is a popularity contest jeremy lin will probably start at point guard this year.

Sactown
08-08-2012, 04:54 PM
Also, just an FYI, Jason Terry posted a higher PER than Chris Bosh in the playoffs the last two seasons, and nearly an identical per to Wade during Wades Championship run vs Terry's.. but yeah.. he's just a scrub.. also JJ's per is up there too..

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 04:55 PM
So #23 Lebron or #6 Lebron

Individually, #23 LeBron. But since so many put way too weight on a team accomplishment, if we did a poll, #6 would win.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 04:57 PM
Also, just an FYI, Jason Terry posted a higher PER than Chris Bosh in the playoffs the last two seasons, and nearly an identical per to Wade during Wades Championship run vs Terry's.. but yeah.. he's just a scrub.. also JJ's per is up there too..

Or Chandler and his ability to cover mistakes by his perimeter players, or Marion, whose defense was instrumental to winning a championship.

Anyone who says Dirk did it by himself needs to go back to 5th grade and re-learn the sport, cause whomever taught it to you didn't know what they were doing.

Nobody wins alone in a team sport.

Losoway
08-08-2012, 04:59 PM
hawk eye you dont have to reply to every single person that thinks Heat lebron is better

we get it. you like cav lebron we get it

Sactown
08-08-2012, 04:59 PM
This thread clearly shows a lack of understanding. Winning a ring doesn't make an individual any better. It means his teammates were at a level of competence to be able to help him win.

Basketball is a team sport. If you are going to gauge players on championships, go watch tennis.

I wouldn't say Lebron James is better because he has a ring, nor will I even mention his "mental toughness" as a reason why he has improved... Lebron is simply better in Miami because he has developed more skills as his career has evolved.. he's added a post up game, and his defense has improved.. he's statistically different because he plays a different role.. it's not like he's getting worse in any categories..

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 04:59 PM
do you know who jb is? this guy would say anything to protect jordans legacy even though it doesn't need protection. Who are the two best wing players since jordan? lebron and kobe. He will do anything even twist logic to discredit those two players even make threads where those players are set up to fail. Never take what he says seriously.

It doesnt matter to me. In the thread im speaking of, he had very legit cases to back up everything he said.


I didn't say there needed to be an all star.. I said NOBODY HAS DONE IT ALONE.. Without one of, Tyson Chandler, Marion, Kidd, JJ, Stevenson. They don't win that ring, and 3 of those 5 had almost an equal impact as Dirk himself..

Ok, you mean no one has LITTERALY done it alone. lol, fine, you win.


he also cited and back up arguments that said pau gasol was the mvp of the 2009 and 2010 finals is it crap? how do you feel about that?

I dont give a ****, the lakers won.................


Well then you had a guy that came off the bench, outperformed your best player and won the game for you.

Are you just gonna close your eyes every time your wrong.

How can Dirk go 1-12 in the first half and his team be winning, and you still sit there and say he had no help.

Your in denial, its ok

Still, your only mentioning one game. Dirk played out of his mind that whole playoffs. And I think the game your mentioning, Dirk had the flu or something.

theheatles
08-08-2012, 05:00 PM
LeBron is by far more polished now than ever before, with his free throw and jump shot being leaps and bounds better

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 05:01 PM
hawk eye you dont have to reply to every single person that thinks Heat lebron is better

we get it. you like cav lebron we get it

More individually dominant, because he needed to be. If Wade went down for the year, I have no doubt he could throw up another PER of 30, and WS/48 over the 0.3 area.

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 05:02 PM
Or Chandler and his ability to cover mistakes by his perimeter players, or Marion, whose defense was instrumental to winning a championship.

Anyone who says Dirk did it by himself needs to go back to 5th grade and re-learn the sport, cause whomever taught it to you didn't know what they were doing.

Nobody wins alone in a team sport.

stop trying to throw jabs. Grow up and say what you want to say. No need to insult me. Dont be a hypocrite. The Mavs came together as a team and pulled out a great performance in each series to win a ring last year. Great coaching too. But that team over achieved at the end of the day. One true superstar and a bunch of aging roll players against a team with 3 top 15 players in the league in their primes.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 05:03 PM
I wouldn't say Lebron James is better because he has a ring, nor will I even mention his "mental toughness" as a reason why he has improved... Lebron is simply better in Miami because he has developed more skills as his career has evolved.. he's added a post up game, and his defense has improved.. he's statistically different because he plays a different role.. it's not like he's getting worse in any categories..

Oh I agree, I am simply saying there is a difference when you lay him out individually between the two teams. He needed to do more in Cleveland, therefore you saw greater numbers at times. It's hard to pinpoint what year is his best year honestly, because of this, inlcuding this season.

b@llhog24
08-08-2012, 05:04 PM
It doesnt matter to me. In the thread im speaking of, he had very legit cases to back up everything he said.



Ok, you mean no one has LITTERALY done it alone. lol, fine, you win.



I dont give a ****, the lakers won.................



Still, your only mentioning one game. Dirk played out of his mind that whole playoffs. And I think the game your mentioning, Dirk had the flu or something.

Until the finals Lebron did as well. :eyebrow:

bucketss
08-08-2012, 05:05 PM
It doesnt matter to me. In the thread im speaking of, he had very legit cases to back up everything he said.



Ok, you mean no one has LITTERALY done it alone. lol, fine, you win.



I dont give a ****, the lakers won.................



Still, your only mentioning one game. Dirk played out of his mind that whole playoffs. And I think the game your mentioning, Dirk had the flu or something.

thats the thing though, since this time he is discrediting kobe you won't agree with him even if he provides very legit cases as you said to back up his points. Only reason you agree with him is because it supports both your agendas against lebron. haters gonna hate

Sactown
08-08-2012, 05:11 PM
stop trying to throw jabs. Grow up and say what you want to say. No need to insult me. Dont be a hypocrite. The Mavs came together as a team and pulled out a great performance in each series to win a ring last year. Great coaching too. But that team over achieved at the end of the day. One true superstar and a bunch of aging roll players against a team with 3 top 15 players in the league in their primes.
Jason Terry posted a PER that was greater than 20 and played just as well during his championship run as Wade did during his 2012 run... he outplayed Bosh, and so did Chandler.. they all played like all stars and not aging role players... that's the point.. Dirk wouldn't of been able to do it with regular role players..

Sactown
08-08-2012, 05:14 PM
Oh I agree, I am simply saying there is a difference when you lay him out individually between the two teams. He needed to do more in Cleveland, therefore you saw greater numbers at times. It's hard to pinpoint what year is his best year honestly, because of this, inlcuding this season.

Oh I clearly agree his role is completely different, so that reflects in his stats, but there's no doubt he has developed his skill set dramatically, on both ends of the court. As if he wasn't versatile enough already haha.

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 05:15 PM
Jason Terry posted a PER that was greater than 20 and played just as well during his championship run as Wade did during his 2012 run... he outplayed Bosh, and so did Chandler.. they all played like all stars and not aging role players... that's the point.. Dirk wouldn't of been able to do it with regular role players..

I think there is a communication failure going on here. Im not talking about how they did in the playoffs. Im talking about the team on paper as a whole. Obviously we know the outcome, but before the season no one was picking the Mavs to win. They had no superstars on the team but Dirk, and he was hurt that year. thats my point. Dont look at it knowing the outcome, look at it as someone who didnt know that they won. Same theory for the pistons. I knew the pistons were going to be good that year, but i never imagined they would be so dominate on defence.

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 05:16 PM
thats the thing though, since this time he is discrediting kobe you won't agree with him even if he provides very legit cases as you said to back up his points. Only reason you agree with him is because it supports both your agendas against lebron. haters gonna hate

I dont get your post here. But why was Kobe bought up in this thread in the first place??

Sactown
08-08-2012, 05:19 PM
I think there is a communication failure going on here. Im not talking about how they did in the playoffs. Im talking about the team on paper as a whole. Obviously we know the outcome, but before the season no one was picking the Mavs to win. They had no superstars on the team but Dirk, and he was hurt that year. thats my point. Dont look at it knowing the outcome, look at it as someone who didnt know that they won. Same theory for the pistons. I knew the pistons were going to be good that year, but i never imagined they would be so dominate on defence.

That's very true, but that's not the argument, the argument is "Has anybody done it alone" and clearly Dirk did not because Jason Terry, and Chandler, posted legit "All-Star" type performances throughout the entirety of the playoffs... I would consider your argument if they had only done it a few times, but their consistency is the reason they won a championship.. in my eyes there were 3 all stars on that team during the playoffs..

nickdymez
08-08-2012, 05:22 PM
That's very true, but that's not the argument, the argument is "Has anybody done it alone" and clearly Dirk did not because Jason Terry, and Chandler, posted legit "All-Star" type performances throughout the entirety of the playoffs... I would consider your argument if they had only done it a few times, but their consistency is the reason they won a championship.. in my eyes there were 3 all stars on that team during the playoffs..

See we are coming together a little bit here.. I hear what your saying. My point is prior to the playoffs it wasnt the case. The Mavs started a whole new season in the playoffs. So litteraly speaking, no, Dirk didnt do it by himself. But that just goes to show the heart of that Mavs team.

RLundi
08-08-2012, 06:35 PM
Ah, to be popular...

el hidalgo
08-08-2012, 06:50 PM
I thought i smelled a nerd... alright boys, lets throw his *** into a locker

IndyHeatjman
08-08-2012, 07:09 PM
LBJ is the best player in the world. James, with already top notch skills, has continued to get better with the heat. He has managed to improve in generally every aspect of his game since joining the team. And why didnt you make a poll?

JordansBulls
08-08-2012, 07:24 PM
JB's research was crap, disproven numerous times by many of the respectable posters here. You are talking about a Chicago fan that wants to protect Jordan from any possible competition for GOAT. Um, he does the same with Kobe if you haven't noticed.

How so? The Cavs were predicted to win and they were favorites against every team they played.


http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749



Josh (Los Angeles, CA): The Cavs didn?t match up well with Orlando, now all of a sudden Big Z
(PER 18.03), Mo (17.25) and Delonte (14.16) aren't a good supporting cast and Rashard (16.83), Hedo (14.82), and Pietrus (11.69) are studs?


http://a.espncdn.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: It's the style of play. The way the Magic spread the floor was a challenge for guys like Ben Wallace and Z to guard. When Varejao got in foul trouble, they struggled to keep up.


Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps)





Cleveland Cavaliers (32 votes)

This thing is Cleveland's to lose, says our panel -- or 60.4 percent of our panel, anyway.
It's no surprise to see so many votes for a team that has the reigning MVP and won 66 games last
season. On the other hand, the Cavs had the same points in their favor in May, and were the heavy favorites to win the East at that time, too. But Orlando took care of Cleveland thanks to some amazing shooting and the dominance of Dwight Howard, and the Cavs were left licking their wounds.

Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090512)



1. Cleveland (+9.12)
Welcome to the Cleveland Invitational, ladies and gentlemen. Yes, the Pistons had given up and the Hawks had injuries, but the fact is the Cavs have won eight straight playoff games by double figures. In this case it's a continuation of the Cavs' strong finish to the season, and it doesn't appear either Boston or Orlando has the goods to make them sweat much in a conference finals.

Cleveland also has home-court advantage going for it in the final two rounds, so at this point the Cavs have to be considered a heavy favorite to win the championship. They're playing the best basketball, have the best draw, have home-court and have the best player.

They still have to play the games, of course, but the skids have already been greased. While the likes of Denver or L.A. could give them a tough fight in the Finals, at this point it appears that the only team that can beat Cleveland is Cleveland.



http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagicSeries.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers



Source: Yahoosports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-10-best-teams-of-the-decade-never-to-win-a-c;_ylt=Ai8j0I4kfnCFSrGgLh3xx7q8vLYF?urn=nba,184569 )



1. Cleveland Cavaliers, 2008-09

I sort of like this also-ran, because it speaks to how we've grown as a sport-regarding culture over the years. These Cleveland Cavaliers ran up 66-wins, an almost-Bulls-like 8.9-point differential (way better than any team listed above), and had the greatest player in the game (LeBron James(notes)) at their disposal. And yet, when the team lost to the Orlando Magic in the Eastern Conference finals last spring, people seemed ready to smartly admit that the Cavs, for all their horses, just didn't have the horses to run with the Magic. Nobody was labeled a choker, nobody was fired, and though the team traded for one big (hopeful) problem-solver in the offseason in Shaquille O'Neal, nobody seemed to overreact and make deals for the sake of making deals. Knowing that the team will have the best player in the game, at only age 24, around for at least the next season helps too; but you have to love the lack of hand-wringing. Still, the meek ending doesn't hide the fact that this was an otherwise dominant team that won 74 of its first 90 games before falling to the Magic in six.


The Cavs had the best record all year, they had the highest point differential in winning, they had the highest SRS rating.

In the playoffs they won the first 2 rounds by 10+ points in every game and even in the playoffs the Cavs had a 8.5 pts per game differential which was the highest in the postseason that year.


Why things would have been different

1) Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.

2) There is no reason why Lebron should have defended Rafer for most of the games at home. Rafer does not play well on the road period and most of the time doesn't play well. Another reason why this wasn't good it left Mo Williams and Delonte West to defend Lee and Hedo guys who were simply bigger than they were and thus they could shoot right over Mo Williams and Delonte West.

3) Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.

4) Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.

5) Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.




http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers



Now had the Cavs lost to the Celtics with KG around or the Lakers those would be legit losses but losing to a team that was out in the previous season in round 1 and when you had HCA and the hands down favorite while they were missing there PG in Nelson as well doesn't bode well here.



Eastern Conference for 2009-2010


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastStandings

#1 Cavs 61-21
#2 Boston 57-25
#3 Orlando 56-26



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps

Cavs - 32 Votes
Celtics - 13 votes
Orlando - 8 votes


NBA Champion for 2009-2010

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-NBAChamps

Lakers - 19 votes
Cavs - 18 votes
Spurs - 8 votes
Celtics - 5 votes
Orlando - 3 votes


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/preview2009/news/story?page=Predictions0910-Cavaliers



Last year's collapse in the Eastern Conference finals only made LeBron hungrier and more willing to expand his game. Now, opponents can expect to see him in the post more. Scary. And look for a resurgence from a truly motivated Shaq.




The Cavs were the best team in the East before collapsing against the Magic, and they've gotten even stronger in the offseason. Shaq and Anthony Parker should help shore up their bench. Still, they lack the athletic bigs to match up with the Magic in a seven-game series.




http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsCeltics2010Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/matchup/_/teams/celtics-cavaliers

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/playoffs/clebos

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/playoffs/secondround;_ylt=AnmpDvBsuAcJTM92uhMGAuWmxMEF

IKnowHoops
08-08-2012, 09:31 PM
How so? The Cavs were predicted to win and they were favorites against every team they played.


http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749



Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps)





Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090512)




http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagicSeries.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers



Source: Yahoosports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-10-best-teams-of-the-decade-never-to-win-a-c;_ylt=Ai8j0I4kfnCFSrGgLh3xx7q8vLYF?urn=nba,184569 )



The Cavs had the best record all year, they had the highest point differential in winning, they had the highest SRS rating.

In the playoffs they won the first 2 rounds by 10+ points in every game and even in the playoffs the Cavs had a 8.5 pts per game differential which was the highest in the postseason that year.


Why things would have been different

1) Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.

2) There is no reason why Lebron should have defended Rafer for most of the games at home. Rafer does not play well on the road period and most of the time doesn't play well. Another reason why this wasn't good it left Mo Williams and Delonte West to defend Lee and Hedo guys who were simply bigger than they were and thus they could shoot right over Mo Williams and Delonte West.

3) Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.

4) Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.

5) Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.




http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers



Now had the Cavs lost to the Celtics with KG around or the Lakers those would be legit losses but losing to a team that was out in the previous season in round 1 and when you had HCA and the hands down favorite while they were missing there PG in Nelson as well doesn't bode well here.



Eastern Conference for 2009-2010


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastStandings

#1 Cavs 61-21
#2 Boston 57-25
#3 Orlando 56-26



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps

Cavs - 32 Votes
Celtics - 13 votes
Orlando - 8 votes


NBA Champion for 2009-2010

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-NBAChamps

Lakers - 19 votes
Cavs - 18 votes
Spurs - 8 votes
Celtics - 5 votes
Orlando - 3 votes


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/preview2009/news/story?page=Predictions0910-Cavaliers







http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsCeltics2010Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/matchup/_/teams/celtics-cavaliers

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/playoffs/clebos

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/playoffs/secondround;_ylt=AnmpDvBsuAcJTM92uhMGAuWmxMEF

I'll get my team on this paperwork

justinnum1
08-08-2012, 09:34 PM
I'll get my team on this paperwork

pretty sure he wrote that a long time ago and just pastes it when he needs to make lebron look bad.

Gagan136
08-08-2012, 09:34 PM
Both were very good, but LeBron last season was better, why? No one was on his level in the playoffs and it wasn't even close.

killbumdeluxe13
08-08-2012, 09:40 PM
Miami.... This year's post season seals the deal. Every time he had to step up he did. He controlled the finals and Wade wasn't on his A game the whole post season. Lebron finally stepped up. Number wise he might have had some better seasons in Cleveland but this year he showed he can finally lead a team with maturity.

JordansBulls
08-08-2012, 11:35 PM
pretty sure he wrote that a long time ago and just pastes it when he needs to make lebron look bad.

No, for when people say the Cavs were not favorite.

Sactown
08-08-2012, 11:52 PM
No, for when people say the Cavs were not favorite.

statistically Cleveland was never that great...

record 66-16

PTS/G: 100.3 (13th of 30) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 91.4 (1st of 30)
SRS: 8.68 (1st of 30) ▪ Pace: 88.7 (25th of 30)
Off Rtg: 112.4 (4th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 102.4 (3rd of 30)

lost to Orlando
Record 59-23
PTS/G: 101.0 (10th of 30) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 94.4 (6th of 30)
SRS: 6.49 (4th of 30) ▪ Pace: 92.3 (12th of 30)
Off Rtg: 109.2 (11th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 101.9 (1st of 30)
Expected W-L: 59-23 (4th of 30)

really not a mind blowing upset...

Chronz
08-09-2012, 02:53 AM
Its the same guy, a step slower off the bounce but sharper in the post. If I had to pick ones it would be Miami Bron but only because of the halo that comes with winning a ring.

Chronz
08-09-2012, 03:12 AM
But look at how many excuses are being made for Lebron in this thread alone. You dont need a team full of superstars to win, you just need a team full of roll players that do what they are there for. The bulls are a perfect example of that. Every expert was picking Lebron and the Cavs to win pretty much every year. Jordanbulls already did the research on that. I didnt see any of you guys disputing that.

LOL you know you have no argument when you say the Bulls had role players despite having a team that could win 2 less games without MJ. Whereas Brons team struggled without him on the court.

Thats not a team of role players, and nobody has ever had as much success with as little as Bron had around him in Cleveland. Mo WIlliams was his best partner for **** sake.

JB just copies and pasts predictions, thats not research thats going with the favorite and disregarding context.

Chronz
08-09-2012, 03:13 AM
So #23 Lebron or #6 Lebron

Yes JB, those are their numbers

--23--
08-09-2012, 04:27 AM
Lebron on the Cavs was better. Most ppl may pick Lebron on MIA due because he won a ring, but that doesn't mean he's better now that just mean the team supporting cast was better.

Losoway
08-09-2012, 04:55 AM
Lebron on the Cavs was better. Most ppl may pick Lebron on MIA due because he won a ring, but that doesn't mean he's better now that just mean the team supporting cast was better.

lebron still carried the heat like he did the cavs

basketfan4life
08-09-2012, 10:30 AM
Yea, KD being better than lebron lasted all of about 2 days lol after okc won that first game.

Funny thing is, you were saying durant is better than lebron if boston wins the series. They were up 3-2 by the time and lebron scored 45 the very next game and you shut up and jump back to the LBJ is godsent mode again.

You think people have no memory? Who the **** you think you are ?