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GGGGG-Men
08-07-2012, 02:13 AM
Not sure if this should go in Food or Science Forum, sooooo......both


Scientists grow bacon from stem cells

A new technique that turns pig stem cells into strips of meat could offer a green alternative to the slaughterhouse and help end hunger.

By Bryan NelsonMon, Jan 18 2010 at 7:53 AM EST 10


In an effort to make meat production more humane, alleviate hunger and help curb global warming, Dutch researchers have developed a way to grow edible meat in the laboratory from the stem cells of pigs. Although the lab-grown strips of meat don't yet taste or look much like pork (researchers say it has the consistency and feel of scallop), the ramifications for the new technology on the world's food supply could be significant.

"If we took the stem cells from one pig and multiplied it by a factor of a million, we would need one million fewer pigs to get the same amount of meat," said Mark Post, a biologist at Maastricht University involved in the project.

That means the technology could provide food for more people while making the slaughterhouse obsolete. Furthermore, since meat production is such a huge contributor to greenhouse gas emissions worldwide, switching to lab-produced meat could theoretically lower the industry's impact on global warming by up to 95 percent.

Of course, the technology does have its share of critics. Some health experts caution that consuming lab-made meats could have unforeseen dangers to human health. Furthermore, there are concerns that such radical plans to reduce our dependency on livestock and farm animals could harm agricultural ecosystems.

It's also doubtful that bacon lovers and foodies would ever trade in the real thing for spongy lab meat. Not even the Dutch researchers responsible for growing the meat have been brave enough to try it yet, and they admit it's probably a long way off from tasting like real pork.

"Part of our enjoyment of eating meat depends on the very complicated muscle and fat structure ... whether that can be replicated is still a question," said biochemist Peter Ellis.

Even so, the scientists involved in the project think the benefits of the technology far exceed the risks. And as the process is perfected, they believe they can produce tastier meat which might actually be better for you than the real thing.

For instance, fish stem cells could be used to produce healthy omega 3 fatty acids, which could then be produced instead of the usual artery-clogging fats found in traditional livestock meat.

"You could possibly design a hamburger that prevents heart attacks instead of causing them," said Jason Matheny, an expert on the technology from Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

So far the only types of meat researchers are proposing to make this way are processed meats such as minced meat, hamburgers or hot dogs. It could also potentially be a source of protein for pet food.

"As long as it's cheap enough and has been proven to be scientifically valid, I can't see any reason people wouldn't eat it," said Stig Omholt, a genetics expert at the University of Life Sciences in Norway. "If you look at the sausages and other things people are willing to eat these days, this should not be a big problem."

http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/research-innovations/stories/scientists-grow-bacon-from-stem-cells

GGGGG-Men
08-07-2012, 02:16 AM
Wonder if this changes the southern conservative position on stem cell research :eyebrow:

Tongue-Splitter
08-07-2012, 02:21 PM
I don't know what I think about this. So many thoughts. When I first read the title of this thread I scoffed and thought that maybe they should research more important things especially considering how controversial stem cell research is.

Now I'm thinking as a vegan I should like this. I mention that I'm a vegan because of this part:


In an effort to make meat production more humane

Pretty cool stuff.

flips333
08-07-2012, 07:04 PM
I was really hoping they grew bacon from human embryonic stem cells so I could say: "That's one tasty baby!"

GGGGG-Men
08-07-2012, 09:19 PM
I don't know what I think about this. So many thoughts. When I first read the title of this thread I scoffed and thought that maybe they should research more important things especially considering how controversial stem cell research is.

Now I'm thinking as a vegan I should like this. I mention that I'm a vegan because of this part:



Pretty cool stuff.

Well it really is important, just for the effects on feeding the hungry this could have. It could make it economically more feasible to feed the hungry.

I don't eat meat either (well seafood, I'm pescatarian or whatever), but it still doesn't sound appealing to me. But I never liked bacon that much anyway.

But if they could grow me some Thanksgiving Day turkey that tastes better than Tofurkey, I'm all over it.

BTW, ethical or not, if it's all generated from a stem cell it's technically still an animal product and probably not vegan.

flips333
08-08-2012, 03:31 PM
Well it really is important, just for the effects on feeding the hungry this could have. It could make it economically more feasible to feed the hungry.

I don't eat meat either (well seafood, I'm pescatarian or whatever), but it still doesn't sound appealing to me. But I never liked bacon that much anyway.

But if they could grow me some Thanksgiving Day turkey that tastes better than Tofurkey, I'm all over it.

BTW, ethical or not, if it's all generated from a stem cell it's technically still an animal product and probably not vegan.

It depends on your motivation. Some people are vegan cause they think animal products are unhealthy... they should not eat this tasty bacon. Those that don't eat animal products cause they think it's cruel to the animals... they can now have some nice crispy bacon.

Tongue-Splitter
08-08-2012, 04:38 PM
Well it really is important, just for the effects on feeding the hungry this could have. It could make it economically more feasible to feed the hungry.
For sure. That's another big reason why I'm vegan. I read some crazy statistic about how much grains it takes to feed a cow being prepared for slaughter and how much food would be saved that could go towards feeding the hungry if less cows were killed for food. It's a staggering statistic.


But if they could grow me some Thanksgiving Day turkey that tastes better than Tofurkey, I'm all over it.
I happen to enjoy tofurkey, but there's another company that makes fully vegan turkeys that are actually shaped like turkeys. They are considerably more expensive, but unbelievably more delicious.


BTW, ethical or not, if it's all generated from a stem cell it's technically still an animal product and probably not vegan.
That's the thing though. If I owned a chicken, I would eat eggs. If I owned cows, I would drink milk. While I think there are some health benefits to veganism and especially vegetarianism, I'm not a vegan for my health. Instead, I'm a vegan because of the inhumane treatment towards animals. It's not that I don't think animals should be eaten. I do think this, especially with fish because of how healthy fish is. And I'm not the PETA type of vegan. I don't believe animals should have rights over human beings. I just think that the whole animal bi-product industry can be incredibly more humane towards animals, starting with the lives the animals have and ending with how they're killed. Therefore, if the production of this stem-cell bacon is humane, and if the pigs that they acquire these stem cells from are kept healthy and humanely, I would probably have to consider cutting the vegan lifestyle.

It's a thinker for sure.

flips333
08-09-2012, 09:57 AM
As it relates to this conversation and where animals are at in terms of their level compared to us.

http://io9.com/5932840/grey-parrots-shown-to-have-the-reasoning-skills-of-toddlers

Now I am a scientist, and I am definitely anti pita. But I am also against certain animal testing. 1 I think that any invasive testing of great apes is incredibly inhumane. I also thin IACUC committees should have nearly the same teeth as an IRB, I've seen people run studies and just ramp up dosages of drugs until mice clawed their own eyes out... and it was not informative or necessary. It's just sad,.

StinkEye
08-09-2012, 11:10 AM
Bacon :drool:


I keep thinking of those Japanese steaks made from pooh, though.

GGGGG-Men
08-09-2012, 01:56 PM
It depends on your motivation. Some people are vegan cause they think animal products are unhealthy... they should not eat this tasty bacon. Those that don't eat animal products cause they think it's cruel to the animals... they can now have some nice crispy bacon.

Yeah and when I brought this up to a few people at work who are not only meat-eaters, but guys who flat out mock vegetarians/vegans, they even agreed they'd prefer meat like this over meat that has to be slaughtered....so long as they get the taste right. And really, few people who notice a difference anyway.



For sure. That's another big reason why I'm vegan. I read some crazy statistic about how much grains it takes to feed a cow being prepared for slaughter and how much food would be saved that could go towards feeding the hungry if less cows were killed for food. It's a staggering statistic.

Yeah it really is and plays into the bigger issue of nations of excess v. nations of deficiency. Not likely to be resolved....ever.



I happen to enjoy tofurkey, but there's another company that makes fully vegan turkeys that are actually shaped like turkeys. They are considerably more expensive, but unbelievably more delicious.

I actually like the tofurkey cold cuts. Smoked tofurkey slices. I never ever EVER thought I'd say that, but its true I like 'em. Have a sandwich for lunch today actually.

But last year we tried that Tofurkey "breast" thing for thanksgiving. It was delicious for exactly one bite. After a few it was just too much. I will say though that the Tofurkey gravy is unbelievably good. Tastes like a better version of KFC gravy. I mean I can make a better vegan gravy on my own, but it was solid.

What's the brand for that other expensive one? I might have to try it out. Really I never liked the texture of meat or how I felt after I ate it (as far back as when I was a toddler), so replacement imitation-meats aren't all that important for me.



That's the thing though. If I owned a chicken, I would eat eggs. If I owned cows, I would drink milk. While I think there are some health benefits to veganism and especially vegetarianism, I'm not a vegan for my health. Instead, I'm a vegan because of the inhumane treatment towards animals. It's not that I don't think animals should be eaten. I do think this, especially with fish because of how healthy fish is. And I'm not the PETA type of vegan. I don't believe animals should have rights over human beings. I just think that the whole animal bi-product industry can be incredibly more humane towards animals, starting with the lives the animals have and ending with how they're killed. Therefore, if the production of this stem-cell bacon is humane, and if the pigs that they acquire these stem cells from are kept healthy and humanely, I would probably have to consider cutting the vegan lifestyle.

It's a thinker for sure.


Yeah, I first gave it up just for health reasons and I just felt better when I didn't eat meat. It was a weird adjustment for a few weeks, but way easier than I thought. Then I saw 2 documentaries on Factory Farms and realized how much I separate my food from where it comes from and realized I couldn't deal with it.

I was vegan for a few months, then I went back to dairy, but only from farms I can confirm that it's healthy and humane and then I started seafood again which for some reason I can't say, never bothered me. Then I found out crabs have the capacity to not just feel pain, but store memories of it and it kinda freaked me out, so I may have to give that up again.

Not sure I fit into any category (I guess pescatarian, but leaning vegetarian/vegan as much as I can), but I basically just have a goal to minimize the number of deaths I'm responsible for while on this planet.


As it relates to this conversation and where animals are at in terms of their level compared to us.

http://io9.com/5932840/grey-parrots-shown-to-have-the-reasoning-skills-of-toddlers

Now I am a scientist, and I am definitely anti pita. But I am also against certain animal testing. 1 I think that any invasive testing of great apes is incredibly inhumane. I also thin IACUC committees should have nearly the same teeth as an IRB, I've seen people run studies and just ramp up dosages of drugs until mice clawed their own eyes out... and it was not informative or necessary. It's just sad,.

Why only against certain animal testing? Where do you decide to draw the line? Just curious.

The one that really got to me was the video of the Army/Navy testing tasers on pigs. One of the most horrifying sounds I've ever heard.

StinkEye
08-09-2012, 02:39 PM
I happen to enjoy tofurkey, but there's another company that makes fully vegan turkeys that are actually shaped like turkeys. They are considerably more expensive, but unbelievably more delicious.


How would you know that?

flips333
08-09-2012, 02:59 PM
Why only against certain animal testing? Where do you decide to draw the line? Just curious.

The one that really got to me was the video of the Army/Navy testing tasers on pigs. One of the most horrifying sounds I've ever heard.

It's about a cost benefit analysis. I am against needless testing. If i have a medication that may be beneficial in humans, you betcha I am going to use animals first. If I have a question about genetics you betcha I will use transgenic mice.

What I am talking about is simple ethics. For example an animal study should use as few animals as possible. You shouldn't use an untested does of chemical agents that is wildly different than the doses on has already given.

The research should have distinct impact. You don't test tasers on pigs just to see if they work. One may need to test tasers on animals to understand the impact of them being fired before they are fired on humans. Right, just because it sounds or looks cruel, doesn't make it unethical.

Here is an example... We know how our visual system is set up because of recordings from cat's brains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOHayh06LJ4

Should we not have done that?

There is no bright line. There is no way of being sure what you do is ethical... but I sure as hell think that researchers shouldn't treat animals like a disposable tool. They should be treated with the respect a thinking thing deserves. IRBs have teeth. IRBs were created in the backlash of the Tuskegee experiments ... I think people who are against animal testing would be far more helpful to the animals they love if they went into trying to minimize the use of animals and help to create rules that follow a common code of ethics, as opposed to trying to set lose a bunch of mice and monkeys and rats. Which just makes research institutions increase security so it's harder to know what goes on.

Tongue-Splitter
08-09-2012, 08:24 PM
How would you know that?
What kind of completely ******** question is that? Because I've eaten it, dolt. Try being smart.

StinkEye
08-09-2012, 11:39 PM
What kind of completely ******** question is that? Because I've eaten it, dolt. Try being smart.

you're a bad vegan.

Tongue-Splitter
08-10-2012, 04:43 AM
you're a bad vegan.
You are a person of low intelligence that has absolutely no idea what he's talking about and is probably trying to troll me because I called you out on saying that Citizen Kane isn't in the discussion for greatest of all-time even though you had never seen it. You either have no idea what a vegan is, or you are trying to bother me. If it's the former, you can look that sort of thing up and educate yourself. If it's the latter, I pity you.

StinkEye
08-10-2012, 11:15 AM
You are a person of low intelligence that has absolutely no idea what he's talking about and is probably trying to troll me because I called you out on saying that Citizen Kane isn't in the discussion for greatest of all-time even though you had never seen it. You either have no idea what a vegan is, or you are trying to bother me. If it's the former, you can look that sort of thing up and educate yourself. If it's the latter, I pity you.

You got all of this from a few posts? I called you a bad vegan because you claimed to know what real turkey tastes like, as compared to that tofurkey. You claimed that that tofu crap is more delish than real turkey, which would be hard to know for sure unless you did a taste test.

And I'm not trying to bother you, it's just way too easy. Perhaps your lack of real food is making you cranky. That, or you take yourself way too seriously.

flips333
08-10-2012, 12:43 PM
Take it outside.

Tongue-Splitter
08-10-2012, 01:58 PM
I called you a bad vegan because you claimed to know what real turkey tastes like, as compared to that tofurkey.
I'll give you a hint and then I'll let you live something rather like a life:

Turkey has been real my whole life.
I haven't been a vegan my whole life.

Trace
08-11-2012, 05:22 PM
This is such a pointless argument. This belongs in general discussion not the science forum.

flips333
08-11-2012, 10:41 PM
This is such a pointless argument. This belongs in general discussion not the science forum.

Growing bacon from Stem cells most certainly belongs in the Science forum.

Trace
08-12-2012, 02:02 AM
Growing bacon from Stem cells most certainly belongs in the Science forum.

No ****. I was talking about the argument the two above you were having.

GGGGG-Men
08-13-2012, 01:05 PM
It's about a cost benefit analysis. I am against needless testing. If i have a medication that may be beneficial in humans, you betcha I am going to use animals first. If I have a question about genetics you betcha I will use transgenic mice.

What I am talking about is simple ethics. For example an animal study should use as few animals as possible. You shouldn't use an untested does of chemical agents that is wildly different than the doses on has already given.

The research should have distinct impact. You don't test tasers on pigs just to see if they work. One may need to test tasers on animals to understand the impact of them being fired before they are fired on humans. Right, just because it sounds or looks cruel, doesn't make it unethical.

Here is an example... We know how our visual system is set up because of recordings from cat's brains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOHayh06LJ4

Should we not have done that?

There is no bright line. There is no way of being sure what you do is ethical... but I sure as hell think that researchers shouldn't treat animals like a disposable tool. They should be treated with the respect a thinking thing deserves. IRBs have teeth. IRBs were created in the backlash of the Tuskegee experiments ... I think people who are against animal testing would be far more helpful to the animals they love if they went into trying to minimize the use of animals and help to create rules that follow a common code of ethics, as opposed to trying to set lose a bunch of mice and monkeys and rats. Which just makes research institutions increase security so it's harder to know what goes on.

Agree 100%. Just wondered what your thoughts were.

BigBadPapaBear
08-18-2012, 11:32 PM
You are a person of low intelligence that has absolutely no idea what he's talking about and is probably trying to troll me because I called you out on saying that Citizen Kane isn't in the discussion for greatest of all-time even though you had never seen it. You either have no idea what a vegan is, or you are trying to bother me. If it's the former, you can look that sort of thing up and educate yourself. If it's the latter, I pity you.

LOL@ "low intelligence" quip. :laugh2:

Rageaholic
08-24-2012, 02:43 PM
Now I am a scientist, and I am definitely anti pita.

Don't understand everyone's hostility towards PETA. They've done more for animal welfare than any other organization in history, yet people rail on them for largely **** reasons.

flips333
08-24-2012, 02:58 PM
Don't understand everyone's hostility towards PETA. They've done more for animal welfare than any other organization in history, yet people rail on them for largely **** reasons.

If breaking and entering and disrupting legitimate research, and letting animals loose (that will now just die free) is your idea of doing something... or for that matter dressing up naked in a cage. Sure.. They strike me as an unyielding organization without an ability to compromise, and seem to put the welfare of animals above the welfare of their fellow man.

I think that is a fairly good reason to think they are not exactly all that useful.

Rageaholic
08-24-2012, 03:23 PM
If breaking and entering and disrupting legitimate research, and letting animals loose (that will now just die free) is your idea of doing something...

Take that up with ALF. Or are you trying to argue that PETA alone is putting the dampers on scientific progress.


or for that matter dressing up naked in a cage.

Or for that matter, filing a successful lawsuit against the US Department of Defense which led to the banning of dogs and cats in military experiments and saving hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer expenses; or stopping the use of animals in crash tests which lead to the development of far more effective crash test dummies; or spaying, neutering and microchipping thousands of animals out of their own pocketbook on a yearly basis... among others. And yet you focus on this little shitstorm, which is admittedly a stupid publicity stunt but nonetheless completely inconsequential.


They strike me as an unyielding organization without an ability to compromise, and seem to put the welfare of animals above the welfare of their fellow man.

You need to come up with concrete examples.

PETA's not without faults, but their critics need a better sense of proportion and they need to stop relying on tired old ad-homs.

Rageaholic
08-24-2012, 03:56 PM
or for that matter dressing up naked in a cage.

And, as to the question of whether it actually works, following their "naked" campain:

http://current.com/community/91875946_internet-retailer-gives-exotic-leathers-the-boot.htm


Overstock.com Inc. has stopped selling watchbands, shoes and luggage made from the skins of exotic animals. The Salt Lake City-based Internet retailer announced Monday that it pulled listings involving items with alligator, lizard, ostrich, stingray, eel, shark and kangaroo skin from its Web site.

The group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals took credit for pushing Overstock to reverse course. PETA showed Overstock Chairman and CEO Patrick Byrne a video of lizards and snakes being skinned alive.

In a statement, Byrne thanked PETA for "informing us of these issues and presenting us with evidence that factored into our decision." The move follows Overstock's boycott of fur and ivory goods.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/uk-seller-bans-aussie-mulesed-lambs-wool-20100620-yp6b.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2010/03/retailer-cole-haan-to-stop-using-exotic-animal-skins.html

As far as lab invasions go, I'm perfectly fine with this:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/8305774/

flips333
08-24-2012, 04:55 PM
I'm all for the good things they do... you should read the discussion I had with G men on the ethics of animal testing. As someone who is researching things that need animal testing... animal testing that many might put in the unethical category (BTW to PETA it is all unethical) I need organizations i can work with to make testing as ethical as possible. not one that screams at me... as I have been screamed at and spit at etc. They sensationalize research...

and as I read this
http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-experimentation/animal-experiments-overview.aspx

they want to stop all animal research... which is just unreasonable and dumb.

their answer to doesn't animal experimentation save lives?

http://www.peta.org/about/faq/Does-animal-experimentation-save-human-lives.aspx

what silly drivel.

Rageaholic
08-24-2012, 05:17 PM
I'm all for the good things they do... you should read the discussion I had with G men on the ethics of animal testing. As someone who is researching things that need animal testing... animal testing that many might put in the unethical category (BTW to PETA it is all unethical) I need organizations i can work with to make testing as ethical as possible. not one that screams at me... as I have been screamed at and spit at etc. They sensationalize research...

and as I read this
http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-experimentation/animal-experiments-overview.aspx

And yet the issue regarding the ethics of animal testing would never come up if not for their shrill screams. It rarely does as it is. I'd say such voices are necessary, no matter how unpleasant or how extreme they are.


http://www.peta.org/about/faq/Does-animal-experimentation-save-human-lives.aspx

what silly drivel.

Fluffery, I agree. Like the Sierra Club or Greenpeace with nuclear issues. Yet on balance, they do an incredible amount of good. We rarely thank them for the air we breathe or the water we drink; instead, it's just a constant parade of smears and lies. Like that meme about how PETA values animals over people... I don't, and I'm a member.

Personally, I'm in the Peter Singer camp, where the greater good is of greater importance, so I can tolerate critical research; but from a purely logical perspective, there's nothing glaringly incoherent about PETA's stance, even from a utilitarian point of view.

GGGGG-Men
08-25-2012, 03:56 PM
If breaking and entering and disrupting legitimate research, and letting animals loose (that will now just die free) is your idea of doing something... or for that matter dressing up naked in a cage. Sure.. They strike me as an unyielding organization without an ability to compromise, and seem to put the welfare of animals above the welfare of their fellow man.

I think that is a fairly good reason to think they are not exactly all that useful.

I don't know that that's fair. We can compare extreme abuses of PETA with the extreme abuses of lab based animal testing or factory farming and I think they cancel each other out.

The intent by PETA is still good, but instead of having a lead news story about all the puppy mills they've shut down, they'd rather show the few nuts who take extreme measures.

There's a few in every crowd.

jrm2054
08-25-2012, 03:58 PM
Bacon is awesome

flips333
09-05-2012, 12:28 PM
http://io9.com/5940566/can-technology-help-us-put-an-end-to-animal-experimentation

Appropriate for the conversation I was having with G-men.