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Mile High Champ
08-07-2012, 12:46 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last four years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. The season is now over and the Heat have been crowned NBA champs which means its time to kick off the off-season player rankings.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron was labelled by some as Choke Artist in the clutch and now this year had one of the greatest finals performances in recent memory. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 4 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


2012 Off-Season PSD PF Rankings

1) Kevin Love
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2011 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Dirk Nowitzki
2) Amare Stoudemire
3) Pau Gasol
4) Zach Randolph
5) Chris Bosh
6) LaMarcus Aldridge
7) Kevin Love
8) Blake Griffin
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Josh Smith

2010 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Pau Gasol
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3) Tim Duncan
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Carlos Boozer
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Josh Smith
9) David Lee
10) Zach Randolph

2009 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Dirk Nowitzki
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Pau Gasol
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Antawn Jamison
9) Rashard Lewis
10) David West

2008 Off-Season PF rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Amare Stoudemire
4) Chris Bosh
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Elton Brand
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Pau Gasol
9) Antawn Jamison
10) David West

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 12:49 AM
On what planet was Dirk better than Griffin this year? Less team success, significantly worse stats. I mean just name one criteria. You can tell the hate is strong when Griffin puts up 22.5, 12 rpg, 4 apg as a rookie and ranks 8th :facepalm:. Love/Griffin are unquestionably the best PF's in the game right now. At absolute worst Griffin is the 3rd best PF if you believe Aldridge is better somehow.

Jays Claw
08-07-2012, 12:53 AM
I'll take Bosh here at #3.

roshan3ai
08-07-2012, 12:53 AM
:laugh: The Kris Humphries vote

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-07-2012, 12:54 AM
Give me LMA please.

SugeKnight
08-07-2012, 12:57 AM
I voted Gasol

xxplayerxx23
08-07-2012, 12:57 AM
On what planet was Dirk better than Griffin this year? Less team success, significantly worse stats. I mean just name one criteria. You can tell the hate is strong when Griffin puts up 22.5, 12 rpg, 4 apg as a rookie and ranks 8th :facepalm:. Love/Griffin are unquestionably the best PF's in the game right now. At absolute worst Griffin is the 3rd best PF if you believe Aldridge is better somehow.

Griffen is as over rated as it gets. Give me bosh here. Griffen doesn't play defense, all flash.

Toastyy
08-07-2012, 12:58 AM
Ryan "big money" Anderson

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 01:01 AM
Aldridge better get some love in this thread. :mad:

xxplayerxx23
08-07-2012, 01:02 AM
Hes 5th IMO :)

Chronz
08-07-2012, 01:03 AM
On what planet was Dirk better than Griffin this year? Less team success, significantly worse stats. I mean just name one criteria. You can tell the hate is strong when Griffin puts up 22.5, 12 rpg, 4 apg as a rookie and ranks 8th :facepalm:. Love/Griffin are unquestionably the best PF's in the game right now. At absolute worst Griffin is the 3rd best PF if you believe Aldridge is better somehow.
Its not about who was better during last years regular season, its about who you think is the better player now.

I got either Bosh or Pau here

unleashthebeast
08-07-2012, 01:03 AM
Has to be Bosh or Pau here. Should be interesting to see the HEAT vs Laker fans voting in this thread.

Vinny642
08-07-2012, 01:04 AM
On what planet was Dirk better than Griffin this year? Less team success, significantly worse stats. I mean just name one criteria. You can tell the hate is strong when Griffin puts up 22.5, 12 rpg, 4 apg as a rookie and ranks 8th :facepalm:. Love/Griffin are unquestionably the best PF's in the game right now. At absolute worst Griffin is the 3rd best PF if you believe Aldridge is better somehow.

Ahaha funny... and team success?? Did you see them teams?

Vinny642
08-07-2012, 01:05 AM
I picked LA here

SugeKnight
08-07-2012, 01:08 AM
I got Gasol, Bosh, Griffin, LMA in that order. Gets tougher after that

LOVE42
08-07-2012, 01:13 AM
Aldridge for me. He is a great leader and best player on a solid Portland team. Plus, he has a very good all around game.

jimm120
08-07-2012, 01:17 AM
To me, most every PF pretty much regressed this year aside for Bosh and Blake....

So to me, I feel Bosh earned the #2 spot, though I don't actually think he's the #2.

Bosh, Blake, Dirk. Imo


EDIT:

I still don't understand this fascination with Lamarcus. Last year and now this year (in which he regressed too).

Gators123
08-07-2012, 01:27 AM
Pau

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-07-2012, 01:27 AM
To me, most every PF pretty much regressed this year aside for Bosh and Blake....

So to me, I feel Bosh earned the #2 spot, though I don't actually think he's the #2.

Bosh, Blake, Dirk. Imo


EDIT:

I still don't understand this fascination with Lamarcus. Last year and now this year (in which he regressed too).


Even though stats clearly show he got better...

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 01:29 AM
Even though stats clearly show he got better...

:shush: Don't let him know that.

jimm120
08-07-2012, 01:38 AM
:shush: Don't let him know that.

psssss.....

I'm rubber, dawg. You glue. Whatever you say just bounce off me and stickity stick back to you!

NBA-GMaster
08-07-2012, 01:58 AM
Between Gasol, Bosh, Griffin and Aldridge.. I pick Bosh..

naps
08-07-2012, 02:02 AM
Bosh.

Avenged
08-07-2012, 02:05 AM
Pau Pau Pau

seikou8
08-07-2012, 02:10 AM
must say blake griffin has gone from overrated to underrated

LTBaByyy
08-07-2012, 02:11 AM
Bosh
Aldridge
Gasol
Griffin
Stoudemire
Smith
Ibaka
Millsap

LTBaByyy
08-07-2012, 02:12 AM
This one is gonna be good at the end!!!

3 way tie for Bosh, Gasol, Aldridge

LTBaByyy
08-07-2012, 02:13 AM
Blake Griffin is Shawn Kemp v2

Once the athleticism goes, he will suck

Chronz
08-07-2012, 02:18 AM
Blake Griffin is Shawn Kemp v2

Once the athleticism goes, he will suck

When that happens, this will be relevant, but with his work ethic I dont think he will just let himself get fat like Kemp.

Dade County
08-07-2012, 02:35 AM
On what planet was Dirk better than Griffin this year? Less team success, significantly worse stats. I mean just name one criteria. You can tell the hate is strong when Griffin puts up 22.5, 12 rpg, 4 apg as a rookie and ranks 8th :facepalm:. Love/Griffin are unquestionably the best PF's in the game right now. At absolute worst Griffin is the 3rd best PF if you believe Aldridge is better somehow.



what!!!!!!!! :punish:

child please

IndyHeatjman
08-07-2012, 03:27 AM
Bosh. The 3rd piece is still a top 3 PF. If not considered a center by now, maybe next year.

Knicks21
08-07-2012, 03:37 AM
LMA here.

SportsFanatic10
08-07-2012, 04:55 AM
Chris Bosh here. But if Garnett is being labeled a Center for this, then i'm not sure where Bosh belongs. I predict he'll be a PF for the majority of the season. But by playoffs he'll be Miami's starting Center and log most if not all of his minutes there.

SaimuKala
08-07-2012, 05:00 AM
LMA then Bosh and then Gasol

tcav701
08-07-2012, 05:35 AM
Humphries and Ilyasova but no Scola?

GoPacers33
08-07-2012, 06:18 AM
Aldridge

OKC
08-07-2012, 06:35 AM
josh smith is a little underrated here.
not top 3 but he should be top7 at least.

SteBO
08-07-2012, 07:17 AM
I'll take the Boshtrich, w/ no issues with Gasol going here. I'm not as sold on LMA as most people are.

tcav701
08-07-2012, 07:30 AM
Pau, Bosh, LA

After that its a toss up

knicksfan42
08-07-2012, 07:47 AM
I hope everyone here realizes that Griffin pretty much beats everyone else here with his advanced stats. In what ****ing way is LMA better (I voted for him but would like to change my vote here). Gasol I can understand is a decent defender at least. LMA is just flat out worse than Griffin.


Bosh is an even bigger joke. Jesus Christ Blake Griffin is easily the most underrated player in the forums now.

LakersIn5
08-07-2012, 07:58 AM
i hate blake but he is indeed better than LMA. aldridge is so overated. id rather have bosh at 3 than him.

koreancabbage
08-07-2012, 08:46 AM
Bosh is an even bigger joke. Jesus Christ Blake Griffin is easily the most underrated player in the forums now.

no, he's right where he belongs, in the top 5. Which is a testament of his play, experience and maturity.

but Bosh plays and was part of a championship team and he doesn't fade in the playoffs. And I would (and most people right now) say he plays better and individual team defence than Griffin and is really has a calming effect on the Miami team.

but we digress. Griffin plays basketball with a reckless abandon and really no go-to move. This works to his advantage and disadvantage right now.

Bosh, LMA, Griffin in that order to finish the top 5.

Mile High Champ
08-07-2012, 09:00 AM
Griffen is as over rated as it gets. Give me bosh here. Griffen doesn't play defense, all flash.

Really your calling out Blake and your team has Amare? Blake is very much in the conversation at this point.

WhyEvenBother
08-07-2012, 09:15 AM
i agree. blake has to be mentioned. but it has to be LA here, he is better then pau and bosh at this point and he is still getting better. portland are going down hill fast but he is a solid player to build around, can take over games

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 09:21 AM
I hope everyone here realizes that Griffin pretty much beats everyone else here with his advanced stats. In what ****ing way is LMA better (I voted for him but would like to change my vote here). Gasol I can understand is a decent defender at least. LMA is just flat out worse than Griffin.


Bosh is an even bigger joke. Jesus Christ Blake Griffin is easily the most underrated player in the forums now.


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 LaMarcus Aldridge 2011-12 26 55 1994 22.7 .560 .513 8.6 17.5 12.9 13.2 1.3 1.7 9.5 27.0 113 106 5.4 1.6 7.0 .169
2 Chris Bosh 2011-12 27 57 2007 18.9 .551 .493 5.8 20.5 13.5 9.1 1.3 1.8 11.2 24.2 109 100 3.6 3.3 6.9 .165
3 Pau Gasol 2011-12 31 65 2430 20.5 .547 .504 8.8 21.8 15.6 17.3 0.8 2.6 12.1 22.1 112 103 5.3 3.1 8.3 .165
4 Blake Griffin 2011-12 22 66 2392 23.4 .557 .550 10.7 25.1 17.8 16.6 1.2 1.7 10.9 26.6 113 104 6.6 2.6 9.2 .185

Aldridge has by far the worse team yet, still manages to be 2nd in PER and WS/48, ties with Blake in Ortg, while having (even though it's only by a little bit) usage rate. He's also probably the best defensive player of the bunch. It's not as clear cut as you would like to make it seem.

xxplayerxx23
08-07-2012, 09:46 AM
Really your calling out Blake and your team has Amare? Blake is very much in the conversation at this point.

And what does that have to do with anything?? I was responding to a post, Griffen is very over-rated IMO. Amare sucked last year, what do you want me to try and make a case for Amare being a top 5 PF? He has none.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 09:59 AM
Why is Blake Griffin so hated? IMO its no easy choice here as Bosh, Griffin, Pau and LMA all have solid cases IMO but saying Blake is overrated when statistically outproduced every player on the board is really taking it a bit too far.

My gut is telling me to go with LMA based on what I saw from him last season especially given the continued adversity the Blazers faced (changing their head coach mid season, and damn near all his teammates outside of Batum having down years) he was still able to put together one of the best if not the best season of his career. His defense is underrated and his offense is legit his rebounding however is par at best but his leadership is impressive.

I'll withhold my vote for a while. Would really like to see some of the arguments in the other players favour as well.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 10:03 AM
Gasol for me here.

tcav701
08-07-2012, 10:23 AM
If Blake didnt have the refs on his dick, he wouldn't sniff the top 7 or 8.

faze38
08-07-2012, 10:39 AM
It's def LA at 3 the man is a beast on both sides of the ball

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 10:43 AM
If Blake didnt have the refs on his dick, he wouldn't sniff the top 7 or 8.

Same thing I'm saying I mean seriously what's with all the Griffin hate that got these people losing all sense of rational thinking when it comes to Blake.

koetravis
08-07-2012, 10:54 AM
It's a shame you have Ryan Anderson on this list but no Luis Scola.

bigsams50
08-07-2012, 10:56 AM
Same thing I'm saying I mean seriously what's with all the Griffin hate that got these people losing all sense of rational thinking when it comes to Blake.

I cant speak for everyone else, but i hate the guy for how cocky he is. But i wont hold that against him in rankings.

Avenged
08-07-2012, 12:22 PM
Aldridge.....? :confused:

DR_1
08-07-2012, 12:22 PM
LMA easily

unleashthebeast
08-07-2012, 12:46 PM
I honestly can't believe that LMA is in the lead, especially by 15 votes

NYMetros
08-07-2012, 12:46 PM
Voted Gasol but I'm pretty much fine with anyone here. This group of 3 guys is about equal IMO.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 12:52 PM
Wow.... the Blake hate has gone to disgusting levels. I REALLY can't wait until next season now because I'm going to be trolling the **** out of this forum. 8 votes for the 3rd best PF is downright disrespectful. Two years ago people penalized Griffin on rankings because he didn't win. Yet Aldridge can miss the playoffs and the Blazers can sink faster than any team in the NBA and he leads the poll? Talk about blind.

knicksfan42
08-07-2012, 01:01 PM
Wow.... the Blake hate has gone to disgusting levels. I REALLY can't wait until next season now because I'm going to be trolling the **** out of this forum. 8 votes for the 3rd best PF is downright disrespectful.

I agree with you. I mean Griffin kind of pissed me off last season; I just didn't like his attitude, but right now he is being massively underrated. He is better than everyone on this list advanced stat wise. Yea he is a horrendous defender, but who on this list really isn't. Who here is an above average defender? Maybe Gasol. At least Griffin is an elite rebounder. LMA isn't even average in that regard.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 01:04 PM
I agree with you. I mean Griffin kind of pissed me off last season; I just didn't like his attitude, but right now he is being massively underrated. He is better than everyone on this list advanced stat wise. Yea he is a horrendous defender, but who on this list really isn't. Who here is an above average defender? Maybe Gasol. At least Griffin is an elite rebounder. LMA isn't even average in that regard.

Yea... people are going to be eating their fu**ing words next year that's for sure. Just like the people who said the Clippers wouldn't get passed Memphis when I guaranteed they would 2 months before the season ended. This kind of stuff seriously fuels me because it's blatant denial and disrespect. People don't actually believe Aldridge is better than Griffin, they just hate Griffin so much that they refuse to pick him. During the season the general consensus was that Love/Griffin were currently the best PF's. Gasol and Dirk declined and Aldridge was injured all year and his team did terrible.

Bosh talent wise absolutely has a case but as a 3rd option he didn't showcase enough to be ranked 3rd logically. If you penalize a big for not playing good defense you should penalize a big like Aldridge for not rebounding well as well. If you're going to penalize rookie Griffin for not leading the team anywhere penalize VETERAN Aldridge for the same thing this year if not more harshly.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 01:10 PM
I honestly can't believe that LMA is in the lead, especially by 15 votes

Of the 4 top he outproduced everyone but Blake statistically, he's better on D than Pau and Blake and can be argued as being better than Bosh as well he was also a great leader and the player who was a true #1 best player on his team.

I too am surprised to see him leading by such a large margin but it's no unbelievable that he would be in the lead here. He has a stellar season and has just as good an argument as anyone on here.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 01:15 PM
Wow.... the Blake hate has gone to disgusting levels. I REALLY can't wait until next season now because I'm going to be trolling the **** out of this forum. 8 votes for the 3rd best PF is downright disrespectful. Two years ago people penalized Griffin on rankings because he didn't win. Yet Aldridge can miss the playoffs and the Blazers can sink faster than any team in the NBA and he leads the poll? Talk about blind.

You shouldn't be attacking Aldridge however they are very comparable and Aldridge's support was much worse off than the Clippers'.

Aldridge played well inspite of all the adversity. Now I do agree that the Blake hate has been astronomical and really unwarranted and the fact that he only has 8 votes as compared to Aldridge's 34 is a downright shame but I don't think its blind by any means to rank Aldridge or anyone else on this list ahead of Blake.

What's Blake are the idiots who hate on him and can't seem to comprehend how good a player he really is.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-07-2012, 01:16 PM
I honestly can't believe that LMA is in the lead, especially by 15 votes
Honestly, I'm surprised as well even though I voted for LMA. I did not expect him to get voted here with Bosh and Pau on the board still on the board.

Of the 4 top he outproduced everyone but Blake statistically, he's better on D than Pau and Blake and can be argued as being better than Bosh as well he was also a great leader and the player who was a true #1 best player on his team.

I too am surprised to see him leading by such a large margin but it's no unbelievable that he would be in the lead here. He has a stellar season and has just as good an argument as anyone on here.

Your first paragraph is the reason why I voted for LMA. I think I'll probably go with Griffin next.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 01:42 PM
Swash it's not the fact that Aldridge is leading that's ridiculous. I personally feel Blake is 2/3 and Aldridge doesn't deserve that ranking at all... but what's flat out insane is the gap in votes. 39 to 8 are you fu**ing kidding me? When you factor in injuries the Clippers 2010-2011 squad was no better than the Blazers last year. Maybe if healthy better but they had players going out for 20+ games that were key players left and right. Yet all people could talk about is how Griffin didn't lead the Clippers anywhere as a ROOKIE. So why does 7 year vet Aldridge get a pass????

MiamiBoy77
08-07-2012, 01:43 PM
I pick LMA. I think it goes LMA Bosh Griff Pau

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 01:49 PM
Swash it's not the fact that Aldridge is leading that's ridiculous. I personally feel Blake is 2/3 and Aldridge doesn't deserve that ranking at all... but what's flat out insane is the gap in votes. 39 to 8 are you fu**ing kidding me? When you factor in injuries the Clippers 2010-2011 squad was no better than the Blazers last year. Maybe if healthy better but they had players going out for 20+ games that were key players left and right. Yet all people could talk about is how Griffin didn't lead the Clippers anywhere as a ROOKIE. So why does 7 year vet Aldridge get a pass????

:confused:

You're still making Aldridge the issue when he isn't. He has a solid case over Griffin and until you make one in Blake's favour no one is going to hear you out.

The reason why Blake doesn't get love in these games is because he isn't loved. He is one of the most hated players in the NBA for no real reason. It goes beyond hate however to the point of posters being ignorant to his ability. That's why there is a gap. They just don't like Blake not because of what happened as a rookie or whatever. They just don't like him plain and simple. Aldridge isn't getting a pass he is winning because he was a good player who had a good year. He may be getting overrated a bit but its not like he has no place in this conversation. He has just a solid an argument as anyone.

You beef with Blake isn't Aldridge its the posters who hate on Blake for no reason whatsoever.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 01:56 PM
:confused:

You're still making Aldridge the issue when he isn't. He has a solid case over Griffin and until you make one in Blake's favour no one is going to hear you out.

The reason why Blake doesn't get love in these games is because he isn't loved. He is one of the most hated players in the NBA for no real reason. It goes beyond hate however to the point of posters being ignorant to his ability. That's why there is a gap. They just don't like Blake not because of what happened as a rookie or whatever. They just don't like him plain and simple. Aldridge isn't getting a pass he is winning because he was a good player who had a good year. He may be getting overrated a bit but its not like he has no place in this conversation. He has just a solid an argument as anyone.

You beef with Blake isn't Aldridge its the posters who hate on Blake for no reason whatsoever.

Sure the main issue is hating fans but I can also make a case against Aldridge at the same time because I voted Griffin as the 3rd best. I feel like Aldridge DOESN'T have a case really despite what you said.

1. Worse statistically. The metrics already posted in this thread give Blake an edge in pretty much everything.

2. His team was in the gutter.

3. He's been slow to develop and didn't improve this year. In fact statistically he took a step back DESPITE Roy being gone and the team really opening the door for him to become the undisputed franchise player.

4. The fact that Griffin with a top 3 player, superstar on his team and a ton of weapons put up the better stats when compared to a player who was the only really good player on his team really shows the gap. Aldridge got more shots and more touches and produced less.

5. I'll say it for the 5th time... Griffin was penalized HEAVILY as a ROOKIE for not leading the shorthanded, inexperienced Clippers anywhere by fans yet Aldridge can perform worse in that regard and be ranked higher? Something doesn't add up.

Yes the crazed haters are more important but it's only fitting that since I voted for Griffin I state my reasons.

AllDay28
08-07-2012, 01:57 PM
Lma is the best remaining on this list

IgglesFanInCO
08-07-2012, 02:08 PM
In my opinion Blake is really one dimensional offensively and lacking defensively at this point in his career, he cant do much without getting set up, there is an easy case to be made that CP3 was responsible for a lot of Blake's success whereas LMA had NO ONE last year, everything he did was as the only player opposing teams had to account for.

Add in that somehow LMA still doesnt get superstar treatment from the refs while Blake has had them on his dick since his steller, but media overrated, rookie season.

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 02:16 PM
I don't get that people are saying "Blake is so good" but "Aldridge is so normal" yet they have nearly identical stats. :confused:

AllDay28
08-07-2012, 02:16 PM
In my opinion Blake is really one dimensional offensively and lacking defensively at this point in his career, he cant do much without getting set up, there is an easy case to be made that CP3 was responsible for a lot of Blake's success whereas LMA had NO ONE last year, everything he did was as the only player opposing teams had to account for.

Add in that somehow LMA still doesnt get superstar treatment from the refs while Blake has had them on his dick since his steller, but media overrated, rookie season.

This. Lma had NO one on his team . Blake is nothing but dunks and freethrows Lma can shoot and has a great set of post moves to create his own shot

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 02:18 PM
I don't get that people are saying "Blake is so good" but "Aldridge is so normal" yet they have nearly identical stats. :confused:

How is it identical when there is a 3 rebound difference at the same position? I don't think you guys realize how big that is. Griffin has more impact on games and is a better passer, ballhandler, rebounder, scorer in the paint (what matters most for a big). The edge Aldridge has on defense and outside shooting is smaller than the edge Griffin has in the listed categories. Griffin led the NBA in points in the paint and last year barely lost that to Dwight for Christ sake.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 02:18 PM
Sure the main issue is hating fans but I can also make a case against Aldridge at the same time because I voted Griffin as the 3rd best. I feel like Aldridge DOESN'T have a case really despite what you said.

That's your personal feeling because you are one of the biggest homers around. If you felt any other way you wouldn't be who you're known to be on this site.


1. Worse statistically. The metrics already posted in this thread give Blake an edge in pretty much everything.

What about the defensive metrics? Do those count? Or the fact that Aldrige has a wider array of offensive weapons than Blake and score at a higher rate than Blake does.


2. His team was in the gutter.

Whose fault is this? Love's team was in the gutter he went #1. Dirk's team went from being the best in the league to one of the biggest disappointments.

If you're going to baslessly say his team was in the gutter without any kind of context then all you're doing is being no better a poster than those Blake haters because you're not being rational.


3. He's been slow to develop and didn't improve this year. In fact statistically he took a step back DESPITE Roy being gone and the team really opening the door for him to become the undisputed franchise player.

This is where you are flat out wrong. Aldridge despite having one of the worst casts of his career has had far and away the best season of his career improving his game in almost every aspect (from stats, to leadership to intangibles) on both ends of the floor so him not improving and taking a step back statistically couldn't be further from the truth I honestly have no clue where you came up with that notion.


4. The fact that Griffin with a top 3 player, superstar on his team and a ton of weapons put up the better stats when compared to a player who was the only really good player on his team really shows the gap. Aldridge got more shots and more touches and produced less.

You do know that those weapons and Paul actually helped Blake more than they hurt him right? Its a proven fact that good teammates help and not hurt your efficiency.

Aldridge produced less? What on earth are you talking about? Aldridge scored more points per minute than Blake did and on a better efficiency. How can any of what you're saying be true? :confused:


5. I'll say it for the 5th time... Griffin was penalized HEAVILY as a ROOKIE for not leading the shorthanded, inexperienced Clippers anywhere by fans yet Aldridge can perform worse in that regard and be ranked higher? Something doesn't add up.

Irrelevant.


Yes the crazed haters are more important but it's only fitting that since I voted for Griffin I state my reasons.

You need to come up with better reasons bro because the ones you are using are incorrect.

Blake had better advanced metrics yes but there is more to basketball than just that and Aldridge was better than Blake in quite of a few of those other areas.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 02:21 PM
In my opinion Blake is really one dimensional offensively and lacking defensively at this point in his career, he cant do much without getting set up, there is an easy case to be made that CP3 was responsible for a lot of Blake's success whereas LMA had NO ONE last year, everything he did was as the only player opposing teams had to account for.

Add in that somehow LMA still doesnt get superstar treatment from the refs while Blake has had them on his dick since his steller, but media overrated, rookie season.

Hard to get calls when all you do is stand outside and shoot 17 footers. Griffin is inside getting a beating every game, Aldridge isn't. Aldridge is pretty one dimensional offensively too considering you never really see the guy score the way a big is supposed to, down on the low block. Aldridge's "post game" consists of 15 foot turnaround jump shots. How often do you see this guy in the trenches banging bodies and getting buckets at the rim? Jumpshooting bigs are less valuable in my opinion.

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 02:23 PM
That's your personal feeling because you are one of the biggest homers around. If you felt any other way you wouldn't be who you're known to be on this site.



What about the defensive metrics? Do those count? Or the fact that Aldrige has a wider array of offensive weapons than Blake and score at a higher rate than Blake does.



Whose fault is this? Love's team was in the gutter he went #1. Dirk's team went from being the best in the league to one of the biggest disappointments.

If you're going to baslessly say his team was in the gutter without any kind of context then all you're doing is being no better a poster than those Blake haters because you're not being rational.



This is where you are flat out wrong. Aldridge despite having one of the worst casts of his career has had far and away the best season of his career improving his game in almost every aspect (from stats, to leadership to intangibles) on both ends of the floor so him not improving and taking a step back statistically couldn't be further from the truth I honestly have no clue where you came up with that notion.



You do know that those weapons and Paul actually helped Blake more than they hurt him right? Its a proven fact that good teammates help and not hurt your efficiency.

Aldridge produced less? What on earth are you talking about? Aldridge scored more points per minute than Blake did and on a better efficiency. How can any of what you're saying be true? :confused:



Irrelevant.



You need to come up with better reasons bro because the ones you are using are incorrect.

Blake had better advanced metrics yes but there is more to basketball than just that and Aldridge was better than Blake in quite of a few of those other areas.

Bingo, I like them as much as the next guy but people sometimes take them overboard.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 02:31 PM
How is it identical when there is a 3 rebound difference at the same position? I don't think you guys realize how big that is. Griffin has more impact on games and is a better passer, ballhandler, rebounder, scorer in the paint (what matters most for a big). The edge Aldridge has on defense and outside shooting is smaller than the edge Griffin has in the listed categories. Griffin led the NBA in points in the paint and last year barely lost that to Dwight for Christ sake.

Blake plays the PF its different from the C. As a PF you should be able to provide SOME sort of spacing on the floor. Unfortunately Blake hasn't been able develop a refined mid range game to this point but IMO he certainly will.

Scoring more in the paint really isn't what matters most for a PF what matters most is the player being able to do what is most necessary to helping his team win. It really doesn't matter if Blake scores at a higher rate than LMA in the paint when Blake himself still has a longggg way to go as an interior threat.

A PF scoring such a high % of his points in the paint and not being able to stretch the floor is both a good and a bad thing bro. Blake will only grow as a player when his range really becomes legit.

LTBaByyy
08-07-2012, 02:32 PM
How much % of Blake's points were dunks and lay ups? He is one dimensional

How much % of Bosh, Aldridge, Gasol points were dunks and lay ups? Way less

Griffin will be bad after the athleticism is gone. He better hope he doesn't keep getting injured

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 02:37 PM
That's your personal feeling because you are one of the biggest homers around. If you felt any other way you wouldn't be who you're known to be on this site.



What about the defensive metrics? Do those count? Or the fact that Aldrige has a wider array of offensive weapons than Blake and score at a higher rate than Blake does.

Defense does count but the gap isn't nearly as big as people are trying to portray it. Want to know what Kendrick Perkins said after the 4th matchup between the Thunder and Clippers this year? That the most impressive thing about Griffin this year was he actually played defense. In the playoffs he played very solid D and scouting report released in March also noted the improved D. Point is Aldridge isn't even in the category "good" defensively so if Griffin is "average" or "slightly below average" it's nothing worth noting. Aldridge is a better defender as I said but not by a big margin.



Whose fault is this? Love's team was in the gutter he went #1. Dirk's team went from being the best in the league to one of the biggest disappointments.

If you're going to baslessly say his team was in the gutter without any kind of context then all you're doing is being no better a poster than those Blake haters because you're not being rational.

Sure this has some merit but the fact that Griffin's team success was judged so harshly while others get a pass proves a double standard and I feel like team success SHOULD be valued. Love still ranks first because statistically he was just so much better than everybody else so it's easier to look passed the team success. In Aldridge's case he's not better statistically and to top it off he was on a lottery team. Get it??? Love had a redeeming quality that made him clearly better (stats), Aldridge doesn't.



This is where you are flat out wrong. Aldridge despite having one of the worst casts of his career has had far and away the best season of his career improving his game in almost every aspect (from stats, to leadership to intangibles) on both ends of the floor so him not improving and taking a step back statistically couldn't be further from the truth I honestly have no clue where you came up with that notion.

Because I didn't realize he played 3+ less minutes per game this year but regardless I didn't see the "clear" improvement you did and if there was one it wasn't much of one.


You do know that those weapons and Paul actually helped Blake more than they hurt him right? Its a proven fact that good teammates help and not hurt your efficiency.

I think you're streamlining this too much and not looking at it logically. The key additions of Billups+Butler+CP3 are all serious ball stoppers. Not sure how much you watched the Clippers but CP3 even says his biggest mistake last year was not using Griffin enough. He often held the ball for 20 seconds of shotclocks so how is that beneficial to Griffin statistically? How is Billups and Butler taking a lot of shots without passing and chucking beneficial to Griffin? Less usage rate, less touches, less shots= not beneficial to Griffin. In his rookie year he got to handle the ball a lot more too.


Aldridge produced less? What on earth are you talking about? Aldridge scored more points per minute than Blake did and on a better efficiency. How can any of what you're saying be true? :confused:

As I said.... stop looking at points in which they are very comparable and look at rebounding, passing, ballhandling, efficiency overall etc. A big who scores primarily in the paint while drawing nonstop doubles is far more valuable than a 17 foot jumpshooting PF who doesn't rebound.



Irrelevant.

Very relevant.



You need to come up with better reasons bro because the ones you are using are incorrect.

Blake had better advanced metrics yes but there is more to basketball than just that and Aldridge was better than Blake in quite of a few of those other areas.

Again you didn't name any area.

Scoring= Equal. I feel Griffin's points have my impact but in terms of ranking offensively they are equals.

Defense=Aldridge.

Rebounding=Griffin.

Passing=Griffin.

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 02:40 PM
Again you didn't name any area.

Scoring= Equal. I feel Griffin's points have my impact but in terms of ranking offensively they are equals.

Defense=Aldridge.

Rebounding=Griffin.

Passing=Griffin.


Lol lemme make this simple for you.

Offense=Equal

Defense=Aldridge.

:eyebrow:

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 02:41 PM
For those talking about Griffin's jumper read this. I agree with the article that the long 2 is known as the worst shot in basketball and always has been such. Griffin makes what counts most for a big... shots in the paint where he's one of the elite finishers in the NBA.

http://www.clipsnation.com/2012/4/13/2946992/blake-griffins-perimeter-shot-a-reality-check


"Focusing on the 16-23 range, with data obtained from hoopdata.com, Griffin is hitting 36% of his mid-range jump shots this season, up from 33% last season, a not insignificant 10% improvement. Still -- 36% is terrible, right? I mean, he's making 54% of his shots overall, so 36% is totally unacceptable. It must surely be among the worst mid-range percentages in the league, right?

Guess what? League-wide, NBA players make just over 38% of mid-range jump shots. So Griffin is in fact just slightly below average as a mid-range jump shooter. In fact, based on his improvement throughout this season, it seems reasonable to assume that he is in fact right around the league average at this point. He is, by pretty much any reasonable definition, not a bad mid-range shooter; just an average one.

It's interesting also that Griffin is singled out for this criticism. The constant comparison Griffin faces is to the more 'complete' Kevin Love (a reference made in Amick's article). So what does the oh-so-much-more-well-rounded Love shoot from the mid-range? 36%. Actually, to be perfectly precise, Love has made 68 of 190 mid-range jumpers (35.8%) while Griffin has made 80 of 221 (36.2%) -- so Griffin has actually been better than Love from the mid-range this season.

Here's a partial list of other players who have shot a lower percentage than Griffin from the mid-range this season: Ray Allen, Amare Stoudemire, Carmelo Anthony, Rudy Gay, Luol Deng, James Harden, Danny Granger and Josh Smith."

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 02:43 PM
Lol lemme make this simple for you.

Offense=Equal

Defense=Aldridge.

:eyebrow:


Yes because rebounding and passing aren't huge aspects of basketball. Basketball isn't two dimensional it's four. All 4 categories have just as much value.

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 02:44 PM
Yes because rebounding and passing aren't huge aspects of basketball. Basketball isn't two dimensional it's four. All 4 categories have just as much value.

Fasle.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 02:47 PM
Clippersfan I'm not wasting my time with you anymore.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 02:48 PM
Fasle.

So you don't feel rebounding matters, especially for a PF? Way to push an obvious agenda here kid.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 02:50 PM
Clippersfan I'm not wasting my time with you anymore.

LMAO. I already acknowledged my mistake in that regard but go ahead and act like this is a trial. Where I say something incorrect and it means my entire point is incorrect/invalid. Reality here is Aldridge doesn't really have a case over Griffin at all this last season yet he's leading this poll by a MASSIVE margin. As I said... I'm even more excited for the season to start now... because I'm going to have a lot to say.

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 02:56 PM
So you don't feel rebounding matters, especially for a PF? Way to push an obvious agenda here kid.

Offensive rebounding? Sure. Defensive rebounding? There's a limit.

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 02:58 PM
Clippersfan I'm not wasting my time with you anymore.

I'm considering joining you in a min bro.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 02:59 PM
During the season the general consensus was that Love/Griffin were currently the best PF's. Gasol and Dirk declined and Aldridge was injured all year and his team did terrible.
No the general consensus was that those were the 2 PF's playing the best. Thats not the same as BEING better.


Bosh talent wise absolutely has a case but as a 3rd option he didn't showcase enough to be ranked 3rd logically.
False, he displayed tremendous value to a title winning team while contributing on BOTH ends. Just because hes a third option doesnt mean we dismiss what he did as a first option. And Bosh as a first option was putting up better numbers than Blake is now, so why would I punish him for doing what it takes to win titles?


If you penalize a big for not playing good defense you should penalize a big like Aldridge for not rebounding well as well.
We had this discussion in the other thread, this is how defensive rebounding gets overrated. Defense is far more important than rebounding. I dont know how LMA is winning, frankly I have him 6th behind Blake


If you're going to penalize rookie Griffin for not leading the team anywhere penalize VETERAN Aldridge for the same thing this year if not more harshly.
YES

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 02:59 PM
Offensive rebounding? Sure. Defensive rebounding? There's a limit.

Yea but you apparently don't feel a 3 rebound per game edge matters. You can cop out with Swash and chalk it up to me being a homer but you disregarding rebounding for bigmen is a massively ignorant thing to do.

heattiltheend94
08-07-2012, 03:00 PM
Lma

Chronz
08-07-2012, 03:01 PM
Of the 4 top he outproduced everyone but Blake statistically, he's better on D than Pau and Blake and can be argued as being better than Bosh as well he was also a great leader and the player who was a true #1 best player on his team.
His team sucked and he has a history of shrinking in the playoffs compared to Dirk, Bosh and Pau who have proven themselves far more, its a shame hes winning.


I too am surprised to see him leading by such a large margin but it's no unbelievable that he would be in the lead here. He has a stellar season and has just as good an argument as anyone on here.

Based on what? He didnt win as much, doesnt perform as well in the playoffs (When he does make it) and is nowhere near as valuable as Dirk is.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 03:04 PM
How much % of Blake's points were dunks and lay ups? He is one dimensional

How much % of Bosh, Aldridge, Gasol points were dunks and lay ups? Way less

Griffin will be bad after the athleticism is gone. He better hope he doesn't keep getting injured

LOL I love how you regurgitate the same stuff and ignore all the points made against it.

At least you didnt mention Kemp this time.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 03:04 PM
No the general consensus was that those were the 2 PF's playing the best. Thats not the same as BEING better.


False, he displayed tremendous value to a title winning team while contributing on BOTH ends. Just because hes a third option doesnt mean we dismiss what he did as a first option. And Bosh as a first option was putting up better numbers than Blake is now, so why would I punish him for doing what it takes to win titles?


We had this discussion in the other thread, this is how defensive rebounding gets overrated. Defense is far more important than rebounding. I dont know how LMA is winning, frankly I have him 6th behind Blake


YES

Fair points but if this thread is about being the best in the NBA currently why doesn't that mean playing the best this year? Aren't those the same things? Are we giving merit to past success etc? Because if so that's not fair at all in a CURRENT position ranking and unfortunately that's what people are doing by putting Dirk at 2. Dirk up up 21.5 and 7 and was spanked 4-1 in the first round while his team declined significantly (not his doing). I just don't see how people are ranking him.

Also if you rank Bosh this high you're basing it on skill set rather than production which should be the most important thing in a player ranking. Bosh is my 2nd or 3rd favorite non Clippers player but 18 and 8 while very respectable isn't better than what Griffin and Gasol did for example. Gasol put up 17.5, 10.5 and nearly 4 assists a game while playing better defense than Bosh.

I'll just put my list out there so people see where I'm coming from.

1. Love
2. Griffin
3. Gasol
4. Bosh
5. Dirk/Aldridge

That's based entirely on production/performance from this last season, no reputation or past success factored in. I'm weighing in stats, impact, team success. Love just has too huge of a statistically edge over these guys to overcome with his teams failure. Griffin+Gasol+Bosh had the best mix of stats AND team success.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 03:08 PM
His team sucked and he has a history of shrinking in the playoffs compared to Dirk and Pau who have proven themselves far more, its a shame hes winning.

Chronz what? Dirk is off the board isn't he? So what does Dirk have to do with any of this?

Also what does his history of shrinking in the playoffs have to do with this? Did you yourself correct someone stating that this thead is about who is the best player right now? So LMA shrinked in the playoffs more than a year ago and that is the reason why he isn't better than Pau right now?

You're contradicting your own reasoning.


Based on what? He didnt win as much, doesnt perform as well in the playoffs (When he does make it) and is nowhere near as valuable as Dirk is.

Correction you mean his TEAM didn't win as much. This isn't golf this is a team sport. Why don't you start comparing supporting casts.

Also Dirk is OFF the board why are you still bringing him up as if anyone is saying he is better than Dirk.

Damn near every star player shrinked/shrinks in the playoffs at one point or the other.

The goods
08-07-2012, 03:18 PM
Bosh or Pau on this one,I went with Gasol personally.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 03:18 PM
Fair points but if this thread is about being the best in the NBA currently why doesn't that mean playing the best this year?
Because we know that Pau wasnt utilized properly and we know Bosh is capable of more if he sacrificed winning chips. The last image we have is of Bosh winning a title and how much his team missed him. I shouldve mentioned I had Bosh up there with all of them. I hated Love going #1, Dirk didnt play better than him in the regular season but he his chip isnt so far removed that I would let an out of shape Dirk playing in a lockout year that Cuban practically punted shape my opinion. Especially when we dont know how Love looks in the playoffs.


Aren't those the same things? Are we giving merit to past success etc? Because if so that's not fair at all in a CURRENT position ranking and unfortunately that's what people are doing by putting Dirk at 2. Dirk up up 21.5 and 7 and was spanked 4-1 in the first round while his team declined significantly (not his doing). I just don't see how people are ranking him.

Its not ancient history so its completely fair. I also value playoffs with proven players and Dirk in the playoffs put up better #'s than Blake did in any series.


Also if you rank Bosh this high you're basing it on skill set rather than production which should be the most important thing in a player ranking.
In that case why isnt Ryan Anderson rated above Bosh, LMA? Winning still matters, role still matters. We are contextualizing that production within the confines of their role. We already know what Bosh is capable of as a #1 option, we also know he is arguably the 2nd most important piece on a championship WINNER. We also know that he can sustain/raise his level of play in the post season. We have yet to see that from Blake.



Bosh is my 2nd or 3rd favorite non Clippers player but 18 and 8 while very respectable isn't better than what Griffin and Gasol did for example. Gasol put up 17.5, 10.5 and nearly 4 assists a game while playing better defense than Bosh.
I can understand Pau, hes misused in LA but you could argue the same for Bosh. The difference for me is that Bosh raised his game in the playoffs in spite of this and he strikes me as a more mobile defender, which is pretty relevant given his length and importance to his teams defense.


I'll just put my list out there so people see where I'm coming from.

1. Love
2. Griffin
3. Gasol
4. Bosh
5. Dirk/Aldridge
I have Dirk, Gasol/Love/Bosh (dont care which), Blake.


That's based entirely on production/performance from this last season, no reputation or past success factored in. I'm weighing in stats, impact, team success.
Playoffs? Context?


Love just has too huge of a statistically edge over these guys to overcome with his teams failure. Griffin+Gasol+Bosh had the best mix of stats AND team success.
I can understand that, but I still have Dirk above them all. To me he has the best mix of stats, team success and impact.

xnick5757
08-07-2012, 03:20 PM
on what planet was dirk better than griffin this year? Less team success, significantly worse stats. I mean just name one criteria. You can tell the hate is strong when griffin puts up 22.5, 12 rpg, 4 apg as a rookie and ranks 8th :facepalm:. Love/griffin are unquestionably the best pf's in the game right now. At absolute worst griffin is the 3rd best pf if you believe aldridge is better somehow.

this

Griffin:

(per 36): 20.6 PTS; 10.8 TRB; 3.2 AST

23.4 PER | .557 TS% | .550 eFG% | 10.7 ORB% | 25.1 DRB% | 17.8 TRB% | 16.6 AST% | 9.2 WS | .185 WS/48


Dirk:

(per 36): 23.2 PTS; 7.3 TRB; 2.4 AST


21.7 PER | .564 TS% | .495 eFG% | 2.5 ORB% | 20.0 DRB% | 11.3 TRB% | 12.6 AST% | 7.6 WS | .175 WS/48

IversonIsKrazy
08-07-2012, 03:25 PM
Bosh, Pau or Aldridge all got a case here. Not sure who to go with though. I mean both Gasol & Bosh are soft players on great teams. Aldridge is a consistent player who plays kinda like Bosh back in TO, but on a crappy team. Tough choice. Pau is still one of the most skilled offensive big men, so I'll go with him.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 03:25 PM
Chronz what? Dirk is off the board isn't he? So what does Dirk have to do with any of this?
Yea I forgot, these things have been going pretty fast Im still in #2 thread mode. But Im trying to establish a peer group; Bosh, Pau, and Dirk belong in.
Blake and LMA have their own.


Also what does his history of shrinking in the playoffs have to do with this?
Ummm everything. If your game doesnt translate into the most important phase of the season then you shouldnt be put ahead of someone that your on par with in the regular season.


Did you yourself correct someone stating that this thead is about who is the best player right now? So LMA shrinked in the playoffs more than a year ago and that is the reason why he isn't better than Pau right now?

I didnt say that, I said he has a HISTORY of shrinking, as in its become a trend. He has never played at an extremely high level in the playoffs nor is he fresh off a chip.


You're contradicting your own reasoning.
False, I was stating that playing better in the regular season isnt the same as who is the better player.



Correction you mean his TEAM didn't win as much. This isn't golf this is a team sport. Why don't you start comparing supporting casts.
Because his supporting cast doesnt exonerate him from the winning disparity nor does is excuse his tendency to shrink.


Also Dirk is OFF the board why are you still bringing him up as if anyone is saying he is better than Dirk.

Damn near every star player shrinked/shrinks in the playoffs at one point or the other.
One point or another I would be fine with, every damn time? Not cool bro. And we have had this discussion about playoff production before, Im not convinced you know how to somewhat account for the differences.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 03:27 PM
this

Griffin:

(per 36): 20.6 PTS; 10.8 TRB; 3.2 AST

23.4 PER | .557 TS% | .550 eFG% | 10.7 ORB% | 25.1 DRB% | 17.8 TRB% | 16.6 AST% | 9.2 WS | .185 WS/48


Dirk:

(per 36): 23.2 PTS; 7.3 TRB; 2.4 AST


21.7 PER | .564 TS% | .495 eFG% | 2.5 ORB% | 20.0 DRB% | 11.3 TRB% | 12.6 AST% | 7.6 WS | .175 WS/48

Now do that for the post season and what do you get? I have no doubt that Blake is better than an out of shape Dirk. But once he got in playing shape, the argument ended.

IversonIsKrazy
08-07-2012, 03:28 PM
Reason why I won't include Griffin yet is because you can't give him the ball down low and expect him to score. He is a product off the pick-and-roll. The guy has no shot, nor a go-to post move. Worst of all, his defense is WEAK. A bit of his stats are also influenced by the fact he's playing alongside a premier PG in CP3.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 03:33 PM
Reason why I won't include Griffin yet is because you can't give him the ball down low and expect him to score. He is a product off the pick-and-roll. The guy has no shot, nor a go-to post move. Worst of all, his defense is WEAK. A bit of his stats are also influenced by the fact he's playing alongside a premier PG in CP3.

Griffin's moves in the post are more dependable than Aldridge and that's backed up by statistics and finishing percentages in the paint and at the rim. Not to mention Griffin is dealing with FAR more defenders at the rim than Aldridge is shooting 17 footers. Griffin is the best player in the game right now to feed the ball and get a bucket in the paint as evidenced by him leading the NBA in points in the paint so there goes that theory. As a rookie he was just a notch below Dwight in that regard right out of the gate.

So tell me what Aldridge's go to post move is when he doesn't score in the deep post that often anyways? If his stats are influenced by CP3 why did they go down from his rookie year when he didn't have CP3? Another one bites the dust.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 03:33 PM
Reason why I won't include Griffin yet is because you can't give him the ball down low and expect him to score. He is a product off the pick-and-roll. The guy has no shot, nor a go-to post move. Worst of all, his defense is WEAK. A bit of his stats are also influenced by the fact he's playing alongside a premier PG in CP3.
CP3's stats are also influence by Blake, does that hurt CP3? I dont think you understand that basketball is a team sport, and that players shape each other. Saying Blake has no go to moves is a lie, he does they just arent very efficient. I want Blake to improve but even if he only becomes a PnR player who masters it, he can be the best offensive option. Its not as if you cant run a PnR as often as you can go ISO. What matters is the ability to sustain that efficiency in the post season.

Also of all the players, Blake acquires the most attention in the post, and he has the vision to beat you with a pass. This still counts in the grand scheme of things.

xnick5757
08-07-2012, 03:36 PM
Now do that for the post season and what do you get? I have no doubt that Blake is better than an out of shape Dirk. But once he got in playing shape, the argument ended.

2011-2012 playoffs


Dirk: 26.8 PPG; 6.3 TRB; 1.8 AST

22.5 PER|.560 TS%|.448 eFG%|2.2 ORB%|18.4 DRB%|9.8 TRB%|10.4 AST%|0.0 BLK%|9.5 TOV%|31.5 USG%|0.4 WS|.139 WS/48


Griffin: 19.1 PPG; 6.9 TRB; 2.5 AST

20.8 PER|.533 TS%|.500 eFG%|6.0 ORB%|17.8 DRB%|11.9 TRB%|13.8 AST%|2.0 BLK%|11.3 TOV%|27.3 USG%|1.0 WS|.118 WS/48


its really up in the air - dirk scored more but griffin played better defense and is a much better rebounded (dirk doesn't rebound at all offensively). overall though its clear griffin had the better season.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 03:44 PM
Naw I'd agree with Chronz that come playoff time Dirk is the premier PF. That's not Griffin's fault though as a first timer in the playoffs who isn't a 13 year vet. I guess it depends on if you value 5 playoff games more than 66 regular season games which I don't. Dirk's 2011 playoff run is one of the top 5 ever quite possibly but this year it was nothing worth noting considering they got manhandled in the first round.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 03:46 PM
The fact that Blake gets the most double teams and game planning from defenses of this entire list speaks volumes to how much he can impact games and how underrated he's becoming. If he was a guy who you couldn't feed the ball why are teams sending nonstop doubles, sometimes triples but not doing the same for these other PF's?

Chronz
08-07-2012, 03:54 PM
2011-2012 playoffs


Dirk: 26.8 PPG; 6.3 TRB; 1.8 AST

22.5 PER|.560 TS%|.448 eFG%|2.2 ORB%|18.4 DRB%|9.8 TRB%|10.4 AST%|0.0 BLK%|9.5 TOV%|31.5 USG%|0.4 WS|.139 WS/48


Griffin: 19.1 PPG; 6.9 TRB; 2.5 AST

20.8 PER|.533 TS%|.500 eFG%|6.0 ORB%|17.8 DRB%|11.9 TRB%|13.8 AST%|2.0 BLK%|11.3 TOV%|27.3 USG%|1.0 WS|.118 WS/48


its really up in the air - dirk scored more but griffin played better defense and is a much better rebounded (dirk doesn't rebound at all offensively). overall though its clear griffin had the better season.
Dirk destroys him in the playoffs and his superiority began once he was in shape for the stretch run.

You can argue he had the better year, Im not really trying to get into that argument. But you cant say hes the better player.

Put it this way. If 1 player was out of shape all year but got in shape towards the end of the year. Then moving forward are you going to assume that same player isnt in shape again? Isnt this where prior history tells us that Dirk usually comes to play, that it was only the lockout and his owner punting the season that hurt his incentive to return in time?


Its the same argument I used to make for Shaq, he may not be the best regular season performer but come playoff time I know which player I want leading my team.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 03:56 PM
Ummm everything. If your game doesnt translate into the most important phase of the season then you shouldnt be put ahead of someone that your on par with in the regular season.

On par in what way? Who are you speaking of?



I didnt say that, I said he has a HISTORY of shrinking, as in its become a trend. He has never played at an extremely high level in the playoffs nor is he fresh off a chip.

Fair enough but I am of the opinion that it doesn't really mean that Aldridge is less of a player it means that he has a history of shrinking. One solid post season run that changes and then he suddenly becomes a better player? Not buying it.


False, I was stating that playing better in the regular season isnt the same as who is the better player.

And having a history of shrinking in the playoffs doesn't make you less of a player in a season that you didn't make the post season. Once he gets over that hurdle is he going to miraculously become a better player? I don't subscribe to that reasoning.


Because his supporting cast doesnt exonerate him from the winning disparity nor does is excuse his tendency to shrink.

And this is your opinion on how you view it. If I'm talking TEAM records in an individual sport I look at more than just the record but all factors.


One point or another I would be fine with, every damn time? Not cool bro. And we have had this discussion about playoff production before, Im not convinced you know how to somewhat account for the differences.

And I'm not sold on your basis for choosing one player ahead of another.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 04:00 PM
Naw I'd agree with Chronz that come playoff time Dirk is the premier PF. That's not Griffin's fault though as a first timer in the playoffs who isn't a 13 year vet. I guess it depends on if you value 5 playoff games more than 66 regular season games which I don't. Dirk's 2011 playoff run is one of the top 5 ever quite possibly but this year it was nothing worth noting considering they got manhandled in the first round.

Not at all, Dirk could have gone further if he had the team, what matters is that hes still capable of raising/sustaining his game in the playoffs. This isnt about whos the better regular season player, its about whos the better player period. Who would give your team the best chance of winning when the stakes are the highest. Blake never had a stretch as good as Dirk has in the playoffs, therefore his superior regular season production is pretty meaningless.


A similar excuse you make for Blake in the post season is that one Im making for Dirk in the regular season. Hes too old to have much interest in going all out for the regular season, he has proven to know the championship pace a player must play at to win the ultimate prize.

Blake doesnt know any better

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 04:05 PM
Even if you feel Dirk is 2nd... having Blake 5th or after like most people do is flat out ridiculously and people who have that opinion are quite frankly ignorant or stupid in my eyes.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 04:06 PM
On par in what way? Who are you speaking of?

The players in question in this thread.


Fair enough but I am of the opinion that it doesn't really mean that Aldridge is less of a player it means that he has a history of shrinking. One solid post season run that changes and then he suddenly becomes a better player? Not buying it.
lol you not buying it doesnt change the fact that he plays at a lower level when the games are of utmost importance. One run would be a nice start, until that happens Im not going to give him the benefit of the doubt when the other players in question need no such favors.


And having a history of shrinking in the playoffs doesn't make you less of a player in a season that you didn't make the post season. Once he gets over that hurdle is he going to miraculously become a better player? I don't subscribe to that reasoning.

LOL only in your world is missing the playoffs altogether a sign of strength. We dont overlook his history, this is about separating the best of the best, and if you dont look at the entire picture then your argument is going to be less significant. But based on my experience with your analysis of regular season to post season production, I know full well why you wish to diminish its importance. Go ahead man, regular season is all that matters. Have fun with that argument.


And this is your opinion on how you view it. If I'm talking TEAM records in an individual sport I look at more than just the record but all factors.

Umm you just repeated what I already said, show me where I stated I only look at team records. Notice the words "supporting cast" in that sentence.



And I'm not sold on your basis for choosing one player ahead of another.
Im not sold that playoff performances doesnt matter.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 04:06 PM
Even if you feel Dirk is 2nd... having Blake 5th or after like most people do is flat out ridiculously and people who have that opinion are quite frankly ignorant or stupid in my eyes.

Im sure they feel the same towards you

xnick5757
08-07-2012, 04:15 PM
Dirk destroys him in the playoffs and his superiority began once he was in shape for the stretch run.

Dirk in no way "destroyed" him in the playoffs, unless you think PPG are the end all be all.

You can argue he had the better year, Im not really trying to get into that argument. But you cant say hes the better player.

Put it this way. If 1 player was out of shape all year but got in shape towards the end of the year. Then moving forward are you going to assume that same player isnt in shape again? Isnt this where prior history tells us that Dirk usually comes to play, that it was only the lockout and his owner punting the season that hurt his incentive to return in time?

Dirk is 34, no longer in his prime. History has shown us time and time again that players as they age are no longer as productive as they once were.

Meanwhile Griffin is only 23; he hasn't even begun to sniff his prime yet. Moving forward i'm not going to assume Dirk is going to be out of shape like his was this past season (like you said) but I am going to assume that Griffin is going to continue to improve while Dirk regresses.

Its the same argument I used to make for Shaq, he may not be the best regular season performer but come playoff time I know which player I want leading my team.

see bolded

valade16
08-07-2012, 04:17 PM
In light of me being a Blazer fan I will abstain from voting until LMA has been slotted.

Personally, I think a very good case could be made for LMA being the 3rd best, but having seen the arguments for the last couple pages I believe I figured out why the opinions on No. 3 vary so wildly.

It's because the difference between the 3rd best PF and the 6th best PF are tiny. LMA, Bosh, Gasol, Griffin; whoever you think is the best and the worst of that group, it isn't by much.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 04:20 PM
Im sure they feel the same towards you

Difference is.... it's common sense and obvious to anybody who watches basketball, all biased and hate aside that Blake is better than 5+ in terms of PF ranking. I don't know a single analyst for the NBA this year that didn't call Griffin a top 3 PF. My perspective is supported by tangible evidence, the other way isn't. Second best team success right there with Gasol, after Bosh and the 2nd most statistically best after Love. No reason Griffin should be outside of the top 3. None whatsoever.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 04:21 PM
The players in question in this thread.

So as for the first question.


lol you not buying it doesnt change the fact that he plays at a lower level when the games are of utmost importance. One run would be a nice start, until that happens Im not going to give him the benefit of the doubt when the other players in question need no such favors.

Well Chronz we are different. I don't look at a player's past and hold it over everything when I'm discussing right now. Simple as that.


LOL only in your world is missing the playoffs altogether a sign of strength.

Did I say that?


We dont overlook his history, this is about separating the best of the best, and if you dont look at the entire picture then your argument is going to be less significant.

So are your trying to tell me the only way to seperate the best players is based on their playoff success?


But based on my experience with your analysis of regular season to post season production, I know full well why you wish to diminish its importance. Go ahead man, regular season is all that matters. Have fun with that argument.

Dude you know nothing of my analysis if that's the conclusion you've come to.


Umm you just repeated what I already said, show me where I stated I only look at team records. Notice the words "supporting cast" in that sentence.

You apparently don't comprehend. I am speaking on the basis of TEAM record. All the aspects that go into TEAM record not into individual rankings.



Im not sold that playoff performances doesnt matter.

Chronz where did I say that in any post that I have ever made? It does hold great value but not more than that of the regular season.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 04:30 PM
see bolded

Then your not following the guidelines of this thread.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


Maybe destroyed was too strong of a word but he did beat them, and if you think its based on PPG then you should waste your time posting all encompassing stats like PER, WS.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 04:36 PM
Difference is.... it's common sense and obvious to anybody who watches basketball, all biased and hate aside that Blake is better than 5+ in terms of PF ranking.
False, this is your opinion.


I don't know a single analyst for the NBA this year that didn't call Griffin a top 3 PF.
Sadly they dont post here, otherwise I would be telling them the same thing I told you.


My perspective is supported by tangible evidence, the other way isn't.
False, there is plenty tangible evidence to support Dirk, Pau, Bosh, you just prefer they not be cited. LMA has no argument.


Second best team success right there with Gasol, after Bosh and the 2nd most statistically best after Love. No reason Griffin should be outside of the top 3. None whatsoever.
If this were a question asking who had the better regular season then there would be no reason. But thats not the questions.
Dirk, Bosh, Love all have very strong arguments ahead of Blake so that would make him at best Top4. My argument for Pau is more subjective but it too has some tangible evidence. So hes Top5 in my book.

You went from calling people who held that thought as haters, but that wouldnt apply to me since I am a Clippers fan and it is in my teams best interest that he be as great as he can. So you have changed your stance to calling me ignorant. These tactics will not lend credence to your opinion, try focusing on the arguments made against him and see if you can find any flaws to their methods.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 04:44 PM
So as for the first question.

Read this thread.



Well Chronz we are different. I don't look at a player's past and hold it over everything when I'm discussing right now. Simple as that.
LOL but right now you have nothing to work with. You have to look into the past, where we differ is I dont exonerate a tendency to shrink when others need no such favors.



Did I say that?
So tell me what is the point of trying to exonerate his playoff failures by pointing out that he missed the playoffs altogether? That makes his argument weaker, not stronger. All your saying is you dont know if hes improved to the point where he can actually raise his game in the playoffs. Guess what, we have no such issues with Bosh. We already KNOW he can exceed the #'s LMA posted as the #1 option, we already know his game translates to a winning formula and how vital he is to his teams championship caliber defense.

Point being, I have Blake as my #5 and even he has a stronger case than LMA. Better stats on a better team. Just gos to show how little stock I put in just those 2 barometers so what hope does LMA have?


So are your trying to tell me the only way to seperate the best players is based on their playoff success?
Im telling you the only way to separate players is by looking at the complete picture. Im not going to do any favors for LMA when the players in question need no such favors.



Dude you know nothing of my analysis if that's the conclusion you've come to.
Care to elaborate?



You apparently don't comprehend. I am speaking on the basis of TEAM record. All the aspects that go into TEAM record not into individual rankings.
Your right, I have no idea what your trying to say now. Are you suggesting that winning doesnt matter when it comes to measuring the individual?



Chronz where did I say that in any post that I have ever made? It does hold great value but not more than that of the regular season.
Why is that? At the very least you have to admit when your ranking the very best, it differentiates them.

valade16
08-07-2012, 04:52 PM
False, there is plenty tangible evidence to support Dirk, Pau, Bosh, you just prefer they not be cited. LMA has no argument.

No Argument to what? 3rd best PF? Apparently the majority of people who have voted for him as the 3rd best PF are idiots then?

Are you smarter than all of them?

Chronz
08-07-2012, 04:56 PM
No Argument to what? 3rd best PF? Apparently the majority of people who have voted for him as the 3rd best PF are idiots then?
Idiots? For selecting the 6th best PF as the 3rd best? I think your being too extreme to call them idiots. But let me ask you this, does being voted the best mean your the best?

Personally I have LMA 6th, but I can only vote for 1 at a time, how do you know that all the people voting for Pau or Bosh wouldnt rather have either of them ahead of LMA?


Are you smarter than all of them?
Thats like saying are all of them smarter than anyone who voted elsewhere.
What matters are if any of them making any arguments or simply voting for their favorite player.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 05:07 PM
Chronz I didn't know you had him at 5 or later so me calling you ignorant wasn't something I knew I was doing till now. Regardless Clippers fan or not, yes I feel you're dead wrong if you don't think Griffin is better than the 4 or 5 spot, especially if you watched every game of his career like I have.

If you're going to use a 5 game playoff sample size this year or say a player is a better player because their skillset is more advanced that's a problem. The bottom line with ranking players is how they produce. It's not their reputation, past success, skill set or anything else, or at least it shouldn't be logically.

Blake Griffin is statistically the 2nd best PF and as I said... only Gasol and Bosh had more team success this year on this list. You still haven't listed your criteria for why you feel Griffin isn't top 3 let alone top 5. He's one of the best scoring PF's, one of the best rebounding PF's, one of the best passing PF's and again is the only PF who commands doubles here therefor boosting his impact on games tremendously (more open shots for teammates).

Sure he had a sub par (by his standards) first playoff run but that's not enough to drop Griffin's rank that much. He still put up 19, 7 and 3 which is very solid.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 05:16 PM
Read this thread.

I can't read any posts other than those you make so tell me.


LOL but right now you have nothing to work with. You have to look into the past, where we differ is I dont exonerate a tendency to shrink when others need no such favors.

You have nothing to work with? :speechless:


So tell me what is the point of trying to exonerate his playoff failures by pointing out that he missed the playoffs altogether? That makes his argument weaker, not stronger. All your saying is you dont know if hes improved to the point where he can actually raise his game in the playoffs. Guess what, we have no such issues with Bosh. We already KNOW he can exceed the #'s LMA posted as the #1 option, we already know his game translates to a winning formula and how vital he is to his teams championship caliber defense.

Chronz why do you keep putting words in people's post. I pointed out the fact that Aldridge was unable to make the post season on a crap team in a tough conference. I NEVER once said that that's a good thing. Where are you drawing this conclusion.


Point being, I have Blake as my #5 and even he has a stronger case than LMA. Better stats on a better team. Just gos to show how little stock I put in just those 2 barometers so what hope does LMA have?

Cool that's your opinion does your opinion equate fact? If it doesn't then stop acting as if it does.


Im telling you the only way to separate players is by looking at the complete picture. Im not going to do any favors for LMA when the players in question need no such favors.

You're not looking at the complete picture.



Care to elaborate?

Why should I. I have over 10,000 posts on this site. How much more can I elaborate than that. Every single one of my arguments I make holistically but because I don't put as great a stock into post season play you may like means I don't take post season play into account? You have me confused with someone else.


Your right, I have no idea what your trying to say now. Are you suggesting that winning doesnt matter when it comes to measuring the individual?

Let

Me

Spell

This

Out

For

You

When you attempt to gauge a individual's worth by the his team's record you don't just look at his team record as the end all. You look at the cast of players he has around him, his competition, his coaching, the conference in which he plays, the expectation for his team coming into the season, etc.

Right now all you're telling me is that the other players had better records and they played better than he did when he played in the playoffs and that more so than anything determines the player's value. That makes no sense in a team sport.

You still aren't taking any factors into consideration. Had Blake not gotten CP3 as his running mate the Clips could have very well finished with a worst record than the Blazers. Does that then in turn mean LMA is a better player in your opinion?

If no then that proves essentially how baseless your reasoning is.


Why is that? At the very least you have to admit when your ranking the very best, it differentiates them.

Yes indeed it does but does it hold more merit than everything else?

I honestly don't think you're going to answer this question but I'll still ask you nonetheless.

Peak Garnett or Peak Pau?

PocketKings
08-07-2012, 05:18 PM
I don't even have Blake Griffin in my top 6-7 for PF's.

He's horrendous defensively. He has a HORRIFIC mid-range jumper that he shoots far too often. He's just a remarkable athlete.

He's a David Lee on athletic roids.

valade16
08-07-2012, 05:32 PM
Idiots? For selecting the 6th best PF as the 3rd best? I think your being too extreme to call them idiots. But let me ask you this, does being voted the best mean your the best?

Personally I have LMA 6th, but I can only vote for 1 at a time, how do you know that all the people voting for Pau or Bosh wouldnt rather have either of them ahead of LMA?


Thats like saying are all of them smarter than anyone who voted elsewhere.
What matters are if any of them making any arguments or simply voting for their favorite player.

That act not in and of itself, no. But you said Aldridge "has no argument", meaning that there is no possible way a rational person could argue him as 3rd, and yet 49 people on this thread alone believe so. So what are you saying about them?

I don't, but at the same time, believing that only some that voted for either would vote both over LMA is different than believing every single one of them would. Seems a tad presumptious. Even if we suppose that incredibly unrealistic premise is true, that is still about 67 votes to Aldridges 49, which is not an overwhelming majority in and of itself, merely more by a pretty fair margin.

To the last bolded, you are clearly reaching for all possible reasons this could be so, instead of actually thinking about the probability of those reasons...

or more specifically, as a Blazer fan, I can tell you with near 100% certainty that 49 people didn't vote for LMA because they are Blazer homers or think LMA is their favorite player on this site. I've been around here long enough, and there just ain't that many of us...

MackSnackWrap
08-07-2012, 05:35 PM
I got CB4, Lma, Gasol in that order

Bruno
08-07-2012, 06:28 PM
very interesting. i knew a 32 year old Gasol (with back to back post-season PERs of 17.0/back to back post-season TS% under .500) was going to get over-rated here, but I wasn't expecting so much LMA love. But hey, the numbers speak for themselves- he had a great year.

I voted for Bosh because the Heat looked like a different team without him on the floor, and because his advanced line increased in the post-season. But i take no issue with LMA here, dude can ball, and he's in his physical prime. If love doesn't get knocked for not making the playoffs, then neither shoudl LMA.

naps
08-07-2012, 06:47 PM
I love LMA but without a doubt he got overrated on PSD.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 06:49 PM
I can't read any posts other than those you make so tell me.

Exactly, read this thread.


You have nothing to work with? :speechless:
Your asking me a question? I have the past to work with, same as you.


Chronz why do you keep putting words in people's post. I pointed out the fact that Aldridge was unable to make the post season on a crap team in a tough conference. I NEVER once said that that's a good thing. Where are you drawing this conclusion.
When you tried to excuse his poor playoff showing by pointing out he missed the playoffs. That weakens your argument. Now if you have some other point to draw from that make it available.



Cool that's your opinion does your opinion equate fact? If it doesn't then stop acting as if it does.
Everything I have said is a fact.



You're not looking at the complete picture.
Says the guy who doesnt want to look at playoff history and thinks not making the playoffs helps his argument. Also the same guy who cant keep up with the debate when he repeats things I have already stated.



Why should I. I have over 10,000 posts on this site. How much more can I elaborate than that. Every single one of my arguments I make holistically but because I don't put as great a stock into post season play you may like means I don't take post season play into account? You have me confused with someone else.
LOL Im basing my opinion of you on those posts, and my EXACT words were Ive seen you try to measure regular season to playoff performance. We have had this conversation before, you stopped posting but that doesnt mean Ive forgotten.




When you attempt to gauge a individual's worth by the his team's record you don't just look at his team record as the end all.
LMFAO. Learn to read, go back to the post and look at the inclusion of the word supporting cast. Your basically repeating what I already said.


You look at the cast of players he has around him, his competition, his coaching, the conference in which he plays, the expectation for his team coming into the season, etc.

No ****


Right now all you're telling me is that the other players had better records and they played better than he did when he played in the playoffs and that more so than anything determines the player's value. That makes no sense in a team sport.

lol it makes perfect sense if your considering all factors involved.


You still aren't taking any factors into consideration. Had Blake not gotten CP3 as his running mate the Clips could have very well finished with a worst record than the Blazers. Does that then in turn mean LMA is a better player in your opinion?

Your not taking any factors into consideration, all you have offered is your opinion, which is why I have offered mine on top of facts.


If no then that proves essentially how baseless your reasoning is.
Nope, it proves how incapable of following the conversation you are. Notice how you didnt even see the word "supporting cast" in the post where you complained about supporting cast. LMFAO



Yes indeed it does but does it hold more merit than everything else?
Do you know the meaning of the word differentiates? Why would I give LMA the favor when his competition requires none?


I honestly don't think you're going to answer this question but I'll still ask you nonetheless.

Peak Garnett or Peak Pau?
LMFAO, you dont get it. Re-read my posts here.

Bruno
08-07-2012, 06:53 PM
Blakes popularity has really tapered off hasn't it? Last post season ESPN had him as a top ten NBA player. Today he won't even land top five in the PSD PF rankings.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 06:58 PM
Chronz I didn't know you had him at 5 or later so me calling you ignorant wasn't something I knew I was doing till now. Regardless Clippers fan or not, yes I feel you're dead wrong if you don't think Griffin is better than the 4 or 5 spot, especially if you watched every game of his career like I have.

If you're going to use a 5 game playoff sample size this year or say a player is a better player because their skillset is more advanced that's a problem.
Not at all, Dirk doesnt need to prove himself beyond a 5 game sample when he has already shown a history of raising his game in the playoffs and when the playoffs come around is still doing so. Blake on the other hand has alot more to prove. Him playing better than an out of shape Dirk in a lockout year doesnt weigh more than what Dirk did in the same year.


The bottom line with ranking players is how they produce.
False, if that were true then Ryan Anderson would be ranked higher than alot of superior players. Bottom line there are extenuating factors that inhibit/enhance production, there are also intangibles of the game that I admit we are getting better at actually measuring but one that you are actually not taking into account when you speak about production.


It's not their reputation, past success, skill set or anything else, or at least it shouldn't be logically.
False, past success is still relevant if the player is still within approximation of that ability. Dirk isnt so far removed from his title run that I forget his history of playoff superiority, particularly when he is STILL out producing Blake in the playoffs. The minute that stops is the minute this is a valid point.



Blake Griffin is statistically the 2nd best PF
In the regular season and only if you ignore defensive statistics. Thats a pretty poor case when you consider his intangible worth pales in comparison to many of the PF's I mentioned.


and as I said... only Gasol and Bosh had more team success this year on this list. You still haven't listed your criteria for why you feel Griffin isn't top 3 let alone top 5. He's one of the best scoring PF's, one of the best rebounding PF's, one of the best passing PF's and again is the only PF who commands doubles here therefor boosting his impact on games tremendously (more open shots for teammates).

Sure he had a sub par (by his standards) first playoff run but that's not enough to drop Griffin's rank that much. He still put up 19, 7 and 3 which is very solid.
Ive given several but I can rehash them here.

1) His play declines when it matters most (Playoffs)
2) His play pales in comparison to Dirk (When he was in shape)
3) His intangible worth pales in comparison as he cannot stretch the floor the way Dirk, Bosh can.
4) His defense is shoddy

All you have going for you is that hes the 2nd best PF in the regular season.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 07:00 PM
That act not in and of itself, no. But you said Aldridge "has no argument", meaning that there is no possible way a rational person could argue him as 3rd, and yet 49 people on this thread alone believe so. So what are you saying about them?
That they disagree lol.


I don't, but at the same time, believing that only some that voted for either would vote both over LMA is different than believing every single one of them would. Seems a tad presumptious. Even if we suppose that incredibly unrealistic premise is true, that is still about 67 votes to Aldridges 49, which is not an overwhelming majority in and of itself, merely more by a pretty fair margin.
Yea, there are no overwhelming majority victors when so few people participate.


To the last bolded, you are clearly reaching for all possible reasons this could be so, instead of actually thinking about the probability of those reasons...
I should have just asked for a defense.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 07:06 PM
Exactly, read this thread.

Your asking me a question? I have the past to work with, same as you.

When you tried to excuse his poor playoff showing by pointing out he missed the playoffs. That weakens your argument. Now if you have some other point to draw from that make it available.

Everything I have said is a fact.

Says the guy who doesnt want to look at playoff history and thinks not making the playoffs helps his argument. Also the same guy who cant keep up with the debate when he repeats things I have already stated.

LOL Im basing my opinion of you on those posts, and my EXACT words were Ive seen you try to measure regular season to playoff performance. We have had this conversation before, you stopped posting but that doesnt mean Ive forgotten.

LMFAO. Learn to read, go back to the post and look at the inclusion of the word supporting cast. Your basically repeating what I already said.

No ****

lol it makes perfect sense if your considering all factors involved.

Your not taking any factors into consideration, all you have offered is your opinion, which is why I have offered mine on top of facts.

Nope, it proves how incapable of following the conversation you are. Notice how you didnt even see the word "supporting cast" in the post where you complained about supporting cast. LMFAO

Do you know the meaning of the word differentiates? Why would I give LMA the favor when his competition requires none?

LMFAO, you dont get it. Re-read my posts here.

You post a great big post of nothing and didn't answer a single question I asked you.

Why not answer the questions.

Answer the questions and we'll move forward.

You didn't have the playoff conversation with me you are sadly mistaken. We had the conversation as to whether or not Chuck improved his game every time in the post season that is the only post season conversation you have had with me.

I have always been an advocate for players who play well during the post season.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 07:14 PM
very interesting. i knew a 32 year old Gasol (with back to back post-season PERs of 17.0/back to back post-season TS% under .500) was going to get over-rated here, but I wasn't expecting so much LMA love. But hey, the numbers speak for themselves- he had a great year.

I voted for Bosh because the Heat looked like a different team without him on the floor, and because his advanced line increased in the post-season. But i take no issue with LMA here, dude can ball, and he's in his physical prime. If love doesn't get knocked for not making the playoffs, then neither shoudl LMA.

Pau is being utilized improperly but I guess that is a subjective argument, still you cant deny that Pau plays better in the post, though he has been relegated to making room for Bynum. Does that make him a worse player or simply underutilized?

Why is it OK to vote for Bosh under similar circumstances but not Pau?

Chronz
08-07-2012, 07:15 PM
You post a great big post of nothing and didn't answer a single question I asked you.

Why not answer the questions.

Answer the questions and we'll move forward.

You didn't have the playoff conversation with me you are sadly mistaken. We had the conversation as to whether or not Chuck improved his game every time in the post season that is the only post season conversation you have had with me.

I have always been an advocate for players who play well during the post season.
I have answered the questions, you have chosen to ignore them.

Like the post where I directly mention Supporting cast only for you to go on and complain about it not being mentioned.

And yes it is that very conversation Im talking about, thats how we sprung into the topic of evaluating playoff performance vs regular season.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 07:20 PM
Swash, let me show you what Im talking about.

FIRST POST:


Correction you mean his TEAM didn't win as much. This isn't golf this is a team sport. Why don't you start comparing supporting casts.

To which I responded:

Because his supporting cast doesnt exonerate him from the winning disparity nor does is excuse his tendency to shrink

How you come to the conclusion that Im blindly looking at team wins without factoring anything else into account is utterly desperate.

You should know me better than that, when have I ever said it was that simple. Cmon man, when you have to preach first grade type stuff to someone like me you should take a step back and realize we both do the same thing, so you should just get to why you disagree and spare me the elementary drivel.

Your not teaching anyone anything new, just tell me why you think Im wrong instead of thinking I dont know that teammates matter.

LMFAO cmon man

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 07:28 PM
Swash, let me show you what Im talking about.

FIRST POST:



To which I responded:


How you come to the conclusion that Im blindly looking at team wins without factoring anything else into account is utterly desperate.

You should know me better than that, when have I ever said it was that simple. Cmon man, when you have to preach first grade type stuff to someone like me you should take a step back and realize we both do the same thing, so you should just get to why you disagree and spare me the elementary drivel.

Your not teaching anyone anything new, just tell me why you think Im wrong instead of thinking I dont know that teammates matter.

LMFAO cmon man

Chronz do I have to spell it out for you man seriously?

I mean c'mon you can't be serious right now. BE SERIOUS you're kidding right?

I never said you paid attention to team success and nothing else I already told you this on NUMEROUS occasions.

I simply said when looking at team success there is more to take into consideration than just the team's record.

What in that is soooooooooooooooooooooo difficult for you to comprehend?

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 07:33 PM
I have a Hypothetical What If question to Chronz and Chronz only this has nothing to do with anyone else its just relative to the discussion we are having.

Chronz simple question to which I know you wouldn't answer but I'm going to ask nonetheless.

Had Chris Paul not been traded to the Clippers, Eric Gordon missed just as many games as he did eventually and Blake produced at the same exact rate as he did last season but the Clippers missed the playoffs and finished with a worse record than the Blazers (let's say same record as the Wolves 26-40) would you still say that Blake Griffin is better than Lamarcus Aldridge?

Chronz I dare you to answer the question it requires a simple yes or no to which you can feel free to expand but just answer what the question asks.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 07:33 PM
Dupe post

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 07:42 PM
And yes it is that very conversation Im talking about, thats how we sprung into the topic of evaluating playoff performance vs regular season.

Well Chronz you are sadly mistaken. At no point during that thread did I downplay the importance of post season play. That entire thread was about the importance about post season play and my argument was that many players have a dip in production in the post season. At no point during that thread did I say post season play was irrelevant.

Try again.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 08:11 PM
Chronz do I have to spell it out for you man seriously?

I mean c'mon you can't be serious right now. BE SERIOUS you're kidding right?

I never said you paid attention to team success and nothing else I already told you this on NUMEROUS occasions.

I simply said when looking at team success there is more to take into consideration than just the team's record.

What in that is soooooooooooooooooooooo difficult for you to comprehend?

This has to be a typo, there is more to team success than just the teams record? Team success is validated by TEAM SUCCESS. I think you mean team success when attributed to an individual is more than just team success. In which case your preaching first grade stuff. Why are you wasting time on things we both know?

LOL is English your native language because those are conflicting thoughts.

Either I pay attention to team success by weighing the cast or I dont.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 08:12 PM
Well Chronz you are sadly mistaken. At no point during that thread did I downplay the importance of post season play. That entire thread was about the importance about post season play and my argument was that many players have a dip in production in the post season. At no point during that thread did I say post season play was irrelevant.

Try again.

Try to follow along, I never said you downplayed it, I said your not very good at measuring it and are thus downplaying now.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 08:16 PM
I have a Hypothetical What If question to Chronz and Chronz only this has nothing to do with anyone else its just relative to the discussion we are having.

Chronz simple question to which I know you wouldn't answer but I'm going to ask nonetheless.

Had Chris Paul not been traded to the Clippers, Eric Gordon missed just as many games as he did eventually and Blake produced at the same exact rate as he did last season but the Clippers missed the playoffs and finished with a worse record than the Blazers (let's say same record as the Wolves 26-40) would you still say that Blake Griffin is better than Lamarcus Aldridge?

Chronz I dare you to answer the question it requires a simple yes or no to which you can feel free to expand but just answer what the question asks.
Who knows, I would need to know alot more details than that.

Jarvo
08-07-2012, 08:18 PM
I got Bosh then LaMarcus :)

Chronz
08-07-2012, 08:19 PM
Dude seriously, go back and read the posts.

In one post you complain that I bring up team success without considering supporting cast. Then I clarify that the cast doesnt explain the disparity in the 2 teams success. Then you go back to saying I dont consider external factors.

Your not making ANY kind of sense right now.

Either you think Im ignoring external factors or you dont. And if your now trying to say that I actually do consider them then your admitting to what a waste of time the previous posts have been.

mngopher35
08-07-2012, 08:51 PM
I think Bosh gets underrated now because he is playing with other stars. His numbers on Toronto as the man were better than LMA but now he has to sacrifice stats to help his team and I think it makes people forget how good he is. Not saying voting for LMA is wrong, because it was Bosh's choice to sacrifice individual fame, but I don't think he has declined since Toronto and he had better stats than LMA there.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2012, 09:02 PM
Not at all, Dirk doesnt need to prove himself beyond a 5 game sample when he has already shown a history of raising his game in the playoffs and when the playoffs come around is still doing so. Blake on the other hand has alot more to prove. Him playing better than an out of shape Dirk in a lockout year doesnt weigh more than what Dirk did in the same year.


False, if that were true then Ryan Anderson would be ranked higher than alot of superior players. Bottom line there are extenuating factors that inhibit/enhance production, there are also intangibles of the game that I admit we are getting better at actually measuring but one that you are actually not taking into account when you speak about production.


False, past success is still relevant if the player is still within approximation of that ability. Dirk isnt so far removed from his title run that I forget his history of playoff superiority, particularly when he is STILL out producing Blake in the playoffs. The minute that stops is the minute this is a valid point.



In the regular season and only if you ignore defensive statistics. Thats a pretty poor case when you consider his intangible worth pales in comparison to many of the PF's I mentioned.


Ive given several but I can rehash them here.

1) His play declines when it matters most (Playoffs)
2) His play pales in comparison to Dirk (When he was in shape)
3) His intangible worth pales in comparison as he cannot stretch the floor the way Dirk, Bosh can.
4) His defense is shoddy

All you have going for you is that hes the 2nd best PF in the regular season.

You're one pessimistic dude. You realize most players don't dominate in their first playoff run right? Blake got his first taste of the playoffs and did solid so for you to say he disappeared and completely disregard the inexperience and injury is a bunch of ********, and I'm ashamed that's coming from a Clippers fan.

He may pale in comparison to Dirk when it comes to scoring but he's also a SIGNIFICANTLY better rebounder and passer. Dirk's taken 13 or 14 seasons to even get an average level defense and the gap in that regard isn't big. I think you need to do research on what intangibles means in sports. It's the immeasurable.... shooting ability IS measurable. Intangibles are things like clutch, leadership, work ethic etc and Blake is just fine there.

You point out his defensive flaws but how many modern day bigs come into the league and play great defense in their first two seasons? Are you really calling Dirk a good defender now? Or just conveniently leaving out the fact that Dirk's had laughable defense most of his career?

The Redemption
08-07-2012, 09:24 PM
Wow at Blake Griffin having just 9 votes. Unfortunately bias runs rampant on this forum.

StarvingKnick22
08-07-2012, 10:07 PM
PF are such a hard catagory

Dade County
08-07-2012, 10:10 PM
Damn Laker fans with this Paul ****..wtf

Bosh!

Bruno
08-07-2012, 10:48 PM
Pau is being utilized improperly but I guess that is a subjective argument, still you cant deny that Pau plays better in the post, though he has been relegated to making room for Bynum. Does that make him a worse player or simply underutilized?

Fair question, just not sure if it matters. If the thread requires us to vote for the best player based off last-season, we have to go with who had the best season (who was better last season), regardless of who is being properly utilized or improperly utilized by their given team. But, I'd agree that he isn't properly utilized.


Why is it OK to vote for Bosh under similar circumstances but not Pau?
their circumstances are similar, but I think Bosh has adjusted to the third option role with more success. They've both been marginalized to the third option role, and Bosh has had better production within that role in the playoffs by a large margin. although their regular season numbers are more similar.

ChiSox219
08-07-2012, 10:50 PM
Blake way underrated had to throw him a vote here.


I think Bosh gets underrated now because he is playing with other stars. His numbers on Toronto as the man were better than LMA but now he has to sacrifice stats to help his team and I think it makes people forget how good he is. Not saying voting for LMA is wrong, because it was Bosh's choice to sacrifice individual fame, but I don't think he has declined since Toronto and he had better stats than LMA there.

+1

Chronz
08-07-2012, 10:58 PM
You're one pessimistic dude. You realize most players don't dominate in their first playoff run right? Blake got his first taste of the playoffs and did solid so for you to say he disappeared and completely disregard the inexperience and injury is a bunch of ********, and I'm ashamed that's coming from a Clippers fan.
Again, your crediting Blake for his inexperience, if you can do that then I can credit Dirk for his experience and for not being ready for the regular season since he knows the championship pace better than most. Also you do realize that there are some players who prove themselves incapable of elevating their games much come playoff time. Particularly if they arent multifaceted, I should know, I saw when Dirk was that kind of player. Blake is at the same stage in his career, if and when he proves me wrong, thats when I will give him a top ranking. Until then, Dirk is easily the better player.

Also, I never said Blake disappeared bro, try sticking with facts when arguing against me.


He may pale in comparison to Dirk when it comes to scoring but he's also a SIGNIFICANTLY better rebounder and passer.
Luckily efficient scoring happens to be the most important aspect of the game and apparently Blake isnt good enoug in those aspects to be rated the better player by linear weights like PER/WS etc..

Dirk is also significantly better in the intangibles department and Blake is the better playmaker but in terms of passing in general Dirk is a great at setting up the pass that leads to the pass.


Dirk's taken 13 or 14 seasons to even get an average level defense and the gap in that regard isn't big.
False, hes always been underrated defensively and the gap between he and Blake is pretty big IMO.


I think you need to do research on what intangibles means in sports. It's the immeasurable.... shooting ability IS measurable.
LOL, the effect shooting has on the teams offense isnt measurable (at least not to the degree that we measure everything else), it is known as SPACING. You know how the Spurs were trapping CP3 on side PnR, they wouldnt dare do that to CP3 if Dirk was his outlet option. These are INTANGIBLES.



Intangibles are things like clutch, leadership, work ethic etc and Blake is just fine there.

LOL WTF? The same Blake that sees his scoring rate, efficiency, rebounding, playmaking drop in what is described as "Clutch time". Work ethic sure, but that doesnt translate on the court beyond the effects we've mentioned. Dirk has a greater impact on his teammates, is a FAR better leader and is FAR more clutch.



You point out his defensive flaws but how many modern day bigs come into the league and play great defense in their first two seasons? Are you really calling Dirk a good defender now? Or just conveniently leaving out the fact that Dirk's had laughable defense most of his career?
Based on all the stats we have to measure individual defense, Dirk has actually been laughably underrated defensively. Hes no Dwight but the gap between him and anchors is as great as the gap between Blake and Dirk. Blake was consistently abused in the playoffs.

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 11:05 PM
I think LMA was the best individual player this season. In no way I'm I saying he blows Blake out of the water or anything like that. Blake has him in PER and WS/48, stats that measure production as a whole. LMA has him in TS%. They both have identical offensive ratings (with Lma having the slight edge in usage). His supporting cast is also inferior to that off Blake's and he's obviously the better defender. I get the Pau and Bosh arguments but I'm voting more on a production level (with a dash of homerism in there) rather than "what if" they were utilized this way and that way.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 11:08 PM
Fair question, just not sure if it matters. If the thread requires us to vote for the best player based off last-season, we have to go with who had the best season (who was better last season), regardless of who is being properly utilized or improperly utilized by their given team. But, I'd agree that he isn't properly utilized.

Disregarding context and role are what people are doing against Bosh when they vote for LMA. That and totally ignoring championships. So if you defend that stance then I dont see how you can vote for Bosh now and not vote for Pau/Blake next. Pau's numbers arent very dissimilar from Aldridge and unlike him, hes actually being featured in his teams offense while not even making the playoffs.


their circumstances are similar, but I think Bosh has adjusted to the third option role with more success. They've both been marginalized to the third option role, and Bosh has had better production within that role in the playoffs by a large margin. although their regular season numbers are more similar.
Pau has the edge in the regular season, Bosh has the post season edge. I agree that this gives Bosh the ultimate advantage but after Bosh who are you voting for? If you say anyone but Pau/Blake then I dont see the point of voting for Bosh now.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 11:09 PM
Blake way underrated had to throw him a vote here.



+1

Cmon bro, if you have Bosh's back then you shouldnt have wasted your vote on someone who has no chance of winning. Even if you disagree here, you should take the lesser of 2 evils and prevent LMA from winning.

Robbw241
08-07-2012, 11:10 PM
LMA easy

StarvingKnick22
08-07-2012, 11:13 PM
Cmon bro, if you have Bosh's back then you shouldnt have wasted your vote on someone who has no chance of winning. Even if you disagree here, you should take the lesser of 2 evils and prevent LMA from winning.

just listen to the others, and this could be yours: http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/editorial_image/8c/8c48966363728bb65261c311a1775321/tracy_mcgrady_wants_to_be_on_the_lakers.jpg or are you a straight up clipps fan?

ChiSox219
08-07-2012, 11:15 PM
Cmon bro, if you have Bosh's back then you shouldnt have wasted your vote on someone who has no chance of winning. Even if you disagree here, you should take the lesser of 2 evils and prevent LMA from winning.

I got Gasol here tho

Chronz
08-07-2012, 11:16 PM
I think LMA was the best individual player this season. In no way I'm I saying he blows Blake out of the water or anything like that. Blake has him in PER and WS/48, stats that measure production as a whole. LMA has him in TS%. They both have identical offensive ratings (with Lma having the slight edge in usage). His supporting cast is also inferior to that off Blake's and he's obviously the better defender. I get the Pau and Bosh arguments but I'm voting more on a production level (with a dash of homerism in there) rather than "what if" they were utilized this way and that way.

So in essence, your ignoring that Bosh has limited his game for the sake of winning a chip and being a defensive anchor?

Can I get your reasoning on why we should ignore LMA propensity for inefficiency come playoff time?

Chronz
08-07-2012, 11:17 PM
I got Gasol here tho

Gasol is too far behind, but whatevs, neither of them are likely to win.

Gagan136
08-07-2012, 11:17 PM
It was a lock for either Gasol,LMA, and bosh, looks like LMA got 3rd, wonder who will get 4th.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 11:18 PM
just listen to the others, and this could be yours: http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/editorial_image/8c/8c48966363728bb65261c311a1775321/tracy_mcgrady_wants_to_be_on_the_lakers.jpg or are you a straight up clipps fan?

LOL Im an NBA fan first and foremost. I wouldnt root for the Lakers under any circumstance but I would rock the hell out of a white Tmac jersey.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 11:23 PM
Having trouble digging up some other stats to use against LMA. Seems all these PF's fare well in various analysis. Too tough to argue I guess. LMA it is

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 11:25 PM
So in essence, your ignoring that Bosh has limited his game for the sake of winning a chip and being a defensive anchor?

When the big 3 was formed I assumed Bosh's counting statistics would take a hit, thus affecting his PER. Shouldn't the reduction in his usage result in higher efficiency? I guess that's where the whole "under utilized" argument comes in. I'm not ignoring it by the way, just probably not putting as much stock in it as you are. I agree Bosh as a #1 is better than LMA as a #1 which is believe is the basis of your argument. But bosh isn't a #1 anymore. :shrug:


Can I get your reasoning on why we should ignore LMA propensity for inefficiency come playoff time?

He's in the Melo category of players who don't really improve their game come post season. Bosh has been the better playoff performer that's for sure and Gasol over his career has been as well. Just not the last two season which makes me believe that he just may not have "it" anymore.

koreancabbage
08-08-2012, 12:30 PM
the only reasoning that LMA or Bosh or Gasol is "greater" than Blake is b/c of their all round game. Show me a consistent jumper, passer, and/or defensive presence and sure Blake takes the cake.

Blake is no doubt a stat whore, but thats not all i am looking for in a PF- probably one of the more premier positions in the NBA other than SG/PG. I'm talking experience and solid leadership as well. One day, Blake could be the best PF in the game, but without all those other attritubes right now, meh- give me another one of those other PFs today.

WhyEvenBother
08-08-2012, 12:56 PM
gotta be LMA guys seriously, the guy is a beast down on the block. wayyy better back to the basket game then grif, bosh or pau in my opionion.

and hes stronger down on the block then these other guys. i have seen him dismantle many of these other players when they went head to head and on top of all that he is a damn good man on man defender. his weak side help is amazing for a big body like his as well

WhyEvenBother
08-08-2012, 12:59 PM
im also not hating on the other pf's on this list but i think that david west should be on the list over 3-4 of the players on this list

Chavacano
08-08-2012, 01:26 PM
LaMarcus Aldridge.

JordansBulls
08-08-2012, 01:42 PM
How are these guys getting voted in when they can't even lead a team to the playoffs?

valade16
08-08-2012, 02:11 PM
So in essence, your ignoring that Bosh has limited his game for the sake of winning a chip and being a defensive anchor?

Can I get your reasoning on why we should ignore LMA propensity for inefficiency come playoff time?

Statistically LMA's playoff performances have been on par with Gasol and Bosh's the last 2 years...

So if you are now talking about years and years ago then how is that following the intent of the thread to figure out who is the 3rd best PF right now?

I could see somebody saying Bosh or Gasol is better than LMA, though with Bosh I feel like nowadays he rarely plays around the rim, settling for too many jumpshots, which is wierd for a guy who is supposed to be the big man of the team. Gasol just seems to have lost a step and I certainly wouldn't ask him to be a No. 1 scoring option on a winning team anymore.

Those are my opinions though\, and as I mentioned before, if Bosh, Gasol, or LMA are better than each other then it isn't by very much at all...

Chronz
08-08-2012, 03:20 PM
Statistically LMA's playoff performances have been on par with Gasol and Bosh's the last 2 years...
No way bro, far too inefficient for that to be true. Atleast with regards to Bosh. Pau and him have both let down in the post season so that may be true, my argument for Pau here is that hes not being utilized properly or featured in the offense, but thats more subjective than anything so I wont argue it too much here. Bosh on the other hand, despite being under utilized, still outdoes LMA on both ends.


So if you are now talking about years and years ago then how is that following the intent of the thread to figure out who is the 3rd best PF right now?
Because he didnt make the playoffs last year which doesnt do help his case so arguing for us to ignore a tendency to shrink in the post season is a favor Bosh doesnt need.


I could see somebody saying Bosh or Gasol is better than LMA, though with Bosh I feel like nowadays he rarely plays around the rim, settling for too many jumpshots, which is wierd for a guy who is supposed to be the big man of the team. Gasol just seems to have lost a step and I certainly wouldn't ask him to be a No. 1 scoring option on a winning team anymore.
Bosh is sacrificing that part of his game to open up the lane for Bron/Wade, 2 heavy slashers. Despite this hes still producing at a higher level on both ends come playoff time.

As for Pau, its not about being a #1 option, its about where he operates and how many post touches he gets. Right now hes not even the #1 post option despite being the teams best post player. You could blame some diminished quickness for him not being as versatile as he used to be in operating from the high post. Still hes the best player of the bunch, he has the vision and defense/rebounding over LMA whatever thats worth.


Those are my opinions though\, and as I mentioned before, if Bosh, Gasol, or LMA are better than each other then it isn't by very much at all...

To me he has the weakest case. I cant get past his lack of efficiency come playoff time, his lack of remote team success. All he has going for him is that he outproduces both Bosh and Pau, but if thats the priority then Blake shreds him in both departments. Blake is both winning more and producing at a higher level. Hes a better rebounder, playmaker and scorer. The only reason Im not voting for Blake is because I feel Bosh has proven himself more productive as the #1 option, is an important piece to a championship team, and has raised his game on route to that title.

Pau is more subjective but I truly feel there is a skillset overlap between he and Bynum.

valade16
08-08-2012, 05:29 PM
To me he has the weakest case. I cant get past his lack of efficiency come playoff time, his lack of remote team success. All he has going for him is that he outproduces both Bosh and Pau, but if thats the priority then Blake shreds him in both departments. Blake is both winning more and producing at a higher level. Hes a better rebounder, playmaker and scorer. The only reason Im not voting for Blake is because I feel Bosh has proven himself more productive as the #1 option, is an important piece to a championship team, and has raised his game on route to that title.

Pau is more subjective but I truly feel there is a skillset overlap between he and Bynum.

While I agree to an extent I just don't see the logic in saying Bosh, Pau, and Blake "win more" than LMA considering none of those players are the No. 1 reason those teams are even winning in the first place...

If the Blazers had Kobe and Bynum, LeBron and Wade, or Paul they would be winning.

I'd go so far as to say all those teams (Clippers, Heat, Lakers) would still win games and make the playoffs if you took those PFs completely off the team, let alone switched them out with LMA.

I see the argument for Bosh, Pau, and Blake, but I see an equally as strong argument for LMA.

Why is his argument the weakest? Because Felton showed up to camp fat and out-of-shape? That everybody on the team quit on McMillan? That Mathews regressed? That Camby went from slow to stop? I just don't see how any of those problems that affected the Blazers ability to win this year were on LMA.

Or put another way, if you threw Bosh, Pau, or Blake on that Blazers team instead of LMA I believe we are looking at the exact same result.

Clippersfan86
08-08-2012, 07:20 PM
gotta be LMA guys seriously, the guy is a beast down on the block. wayyy better back to the basket game then grif, bosh or pau in my opionion.

and hes stronger down on the block then these other guys. i have seen him dismantle many of these other players when they went head to head and on top of all that he is a damn good man on man defender. his weak side help is amazing for a big body like his as well

Okay quick question. Have you even once watched Griffin play before? One of the top 5 most physically imposing and strongest players in the game. The guy who led the NBA in points in the paint this year, was just behind Howard last year. Yet you claim Aldridge who plays almost entirely on the perimeter or high post is a beast on the block and stronger? Please stop making yourself look like you have a disability.

Chronz
08-08-2012, 07:36 PM
While I agree to an extent I just don't see the logic in saying Bosh, Pau, and Blake "win more" than LMA considering none of those players are the No. 1 reason those teams are even winning in the first place...
Well that depends on the argument you make regarding the impact of those players on those winning teams. The point Im trying to make is that there is something to be said for producing on a winning team and sacrificing parts of their games for their teamates, and thus their stats have more credibility to them, the added wins do mean something dont they? At least thats what PSD has told me before. But I will admit its not an exact science and sometimes we cant hold the lack of success against certain players. Its just when players are in those environments I expect some truly great statistical separation from his peers, like we see with Love. Thats not always necessary but it would help my confidence in a vote for LMA. Instead what we see is that Blake is not only more productive and a stronger playmaker in general, but that hes doing so on a superior team. And I have Blake after Bosh so I dont see the argument for LMA.



If the Blazers had Kobe and Bynum, LeBron and Wade, or Paul they would be winning.

No doubt, but would they be winning as much? The problem with hypotheticals is that you need to get much more specific with how and why the team would succeed more/less. And Im all for projecting what we feel would happen. But that still leaves us with the current fact:

Blake has better stats (by virtue of being a superior playmaker/rebounder) than Aldridge, and he wins more than Aldridge and he has yet to decline in the playoffs to the level LMA did despite he playing injured throughout his first run and helping lead his team beyond a superior one. So what exactly does LMA have going for him to be placed above Blake? That he has a jumper that gos awry in the playoffs?


I'd go so far as to say all those teams (Clippers, Heat, Lakers) would still win games and make the playoffs if you took those PFs completely off the team, let alone switched them out with LMA.
Not the Clips, and Im not so sure about the Lakers either. Miami plays in the East so yeah prolly but we saw how dismal that team was without Bosh. However I would agree that the difference in talent/ability/production isnt so large that the teams are dramatically worse for the switch.


I see the argument for Bosh, Pau, and Blake, but I see an equally as strong argument for LMA.Why is his argument the weakest?
Blake to me isnt in the class of Bosh. And I dont see a case for LMA vs Blake. Worse stats, less winning, less playoff production in the years he at least makes the playoffs despite better health. I mean, why should I overlook all of those factors?

LMA is more productive than Bosh-Pau in the regular season, but Blake outdoes LMA. Basically the strength of voting for LMA is outdone by Blake and I dont even want to vote for Blake.



Because Felton showed up to camp fat and out-of-shape? That everybody on the team quit on McMillan? That Mathews regressed? That Camby went from slow to stop? I just don't see how any of those problems that affected the Blazers ability to win this year were on LMA.
Yea but if your making that argument we could just as easily point out how much more productive Bosh was when he was on a **** team while being the featured performer. Pau would obviously benefit from more post touches. I would argue the Blazers would win more with a more productive player like Blake who in all likelihood would diminish the need for a PG with his playmaking ability and would be more likely to bring out the best in his teams limited shooters. And I think your selling Camby short, hes not what he was but he was the best Bigman Houston had so hes still serviceable.

And honestly, all year the Blazers had the PT differential of a much stronger team, that was until they tanked. I wasnt expecting the playoffs but the team underperformed somewhat. All these excuses youve given may be valid, but they are also favors the other contenders dont require, thats why its held against him.


Or put another way, if you threw Bosh, Pau, or Blake on that Blazers team instead of LMA I believe we are looking at the exact same result.
I disagree, Blake was already more productive on a superior team and he has the skillset to create shots for limited teammates, its a skillset that was underutilized in LA with CP3, actually both of them carried less of a playmaking burden as a result but whenever one of them wasnt on the court they ran the offense through those players. Pau has shown his passing acumen and is the best post player of the bunch. And Bosh, well, we already know he can be more productive than ANY of these players when hes leading a so so team.

Chronz
08-08-2012, 07:49 PM
Okay quick question. Have you even once watched Griffin play before? One of the top 5 most physically imposing and strongest players in the game. The guy who led the NBA in points in the paint this year, was just behind Howard last year. Yet you claim Aldridge who plays almost entirely on the perimeter or high post is a beast on the block and stronger? Please stop making yourself look like you have a disability.

Dude put your hate gun away. Hes not talking about slashing, pnr ability or finishing in the paint. Hes talking about back to the basket post play.

It would take me awhile to differentiate the post sets but just going by buckets scored from a post up player there is no question LMA is the most prolific.

He scores 41.3% of his baskets in the post, he shoots 49.6% in those sets. Thats good for .96 PTS Per Possession. Thats about as good as it gets in this league.

For comparison, Blake scores 33% of his baskets in the post on only 44.9%, thats a much lower .83PPP.

This doesnt speak to their passing ability in the post, which we both know Blake thrives in, but in terms of creating for yourself in the post, its only logical that the taller/longer pivot with an adept touch, is more effective at it.

Blake can improve, he has the post moves to create but he lacks the touch.

Clippersfan86
08-08-2012, 07:56 PM
Dude put your hate gun away. Hes not talking about slashing, pnr ability or finishing in the paint. Hes talking about back to the basket post play.

It would take me awhile to differentiate the post sets but just going by buckets scored from a post up player there is no question LMA is the most prolific.

He scores 41.3% of his baskets in the post, he shoots 49.6% in those sets. Thats good for .96 PTS Per Possession. Thats about as good as it gets in this league.

For comparison, Blake scores 33% of his baskets in the post on only 44.9%, thats a much lower .83PPP.

This doesnt speak to their passing ability in the post, which we both know Blake thrives in, but in terms of creating for yourself in the post, its only logical that the taller/longer pivot with an adept touch, is more effective at it.

Blake can improve, he has the post moves to create but he lacks the touch.

Sure but that's because most of those shooting measurements are counting post as up to 17 feet out. He said down on the block which is a completely different discussion and then he even made it more clear what he meant when he talked about strength down low. Again Aldridge isn't even top 20 when it comes to scoring in the deep post or when it comes to being the strongest physically.

I wasn't talking about efficiency in the post in general but I'm not one of those people who regard a 17 foot turnaround as playing in the post but even if it is.. it's the high post as I specified which is nowhere near the "block" he referred to.

Clippersfan86
08-08-2012, 08:09 PM
Aldridge is a threat in the deep post but he doesn't score enough there to give him praise above Griffin. Griffin has far more deep paint/block catches and finishes than Aldridge and if you could find statistics for it you'd see a huge edge. Look at buckets scored within 5 feet.

Chronz
08-08-2012, 08:17 PM
Sure but that's because most of those shooting measurements are counting post as up to 17 feet out. He said down on the block which is a completely different discussion and then he even made it more clear what he meant when he talked about strength down low. Again Aldridge isn't even top 20 when it comes to scoring in the deep post or when it comes to being the strongest physically.

I wasn't talking about efficiency in the post in general but I'm not one of those people who regard a 17 foot turnaround as playing in the post but even if it is.. it's the high post as I specified which is nowhere near the "block" he referred to.
How do you know that tho?

Most of Aldridge's shots that come from that territory are heavily assisted so its more likely they are of the Pick and Pop variety. His inside scoring numbers have less assists than Blake so Im not seeing your point.

I can go through all the post sets and get the exact numbers but do you have any to back your claim that hes not better than Blake at scoring on the blocks in post up sets? Seems its unlikely that the guy who gets assisted on less attempts at the rim and scores at a higher% from shots from 3-9 feet out isnt the better scorer in post up plays.

Chronz
08-08-2012, 08:22 PM
Aldridge is a threat in the deep post but he doesn't score enough there to give him praise above Griffin. Griffin has far more deep paint/block catches and finishes than Aldridge and if you could find statistics for it you'd see a huge edge. Look at buckets scored within 5 feet.

It would take me some time to get them but I doubt the evidence would support you.

Looking at buckets scored from 3-9 ft I see that both of them are assisted at equal rates, except that Aldridge shoots 52% on 2.6 attempts while Blake shoots 44.8% on 3.3 attempts. In the paint Blake is more efficient but hes also more assisted in those areas so Im guessing they are primarily from PnR plays and he also gets more offensive rebounds for putbacks so thats another way he boosts his in the paint buckets without actually scoring in the post.

Chronz
08-08-2012, 08:25 PM
I do agree that LMA isnt that strong on the blocks but there is no question hes the better post up player. His lack of bulk is more than offset by his range. If he had strength downlow hed be like Duncan

Clippersfan86
08-08-2012, 08:42 PM
It would take me some time to get them but I doubt the evidence would support you.

Looking at buckets scored from 3-9 ft I see that both of them are assisted at equal rates, except that Aldridge shoots 52% on 2.6 attempts while Blake shoots 44.8% on 3.3 attempts. In the paint Blake is more efficient but hes also more assisted in those areas so Im guessing they are primarily from PnR plays and he also gets more offensive rebounds for putbacks so thats another way he boosts his in the paint buckets without actually scoring in the post.

My main point was that Griffin is a much deadlier player in the DEEP post and on the BLOCK. If you're talking about 16 or 17 foot turnarounds from the HIGH post then of course Aldridge has him beat there. Better overall post up player I'd have to agree due to his versatility in the post over Griffin and the fact that he can beat you at different ranges in the post. Once the guy said BLOCK though is what I didn't agree with.

Wildcat Swag
08-08-2012, 09:10 PM
I think Dirk is still the best PF in the NBA. I'm not saying this b/c I'm a Mavs fan. Love is a better rebounder and younger, but Dirk is still a better defender and has been the leader for the Mavericks for many years. I'd like to see the TWolves make the playoffs before naming Love the best PF, but other than that I think he's a great talent. After Dirk and Love, the best PF in the NBA is Chris Bosh IMO. Bosh is a good offensive player and a solid defender. He's a valuable player for the Heat as well. We all saw how much they struggled when Bosh was sidelined with injuries. I would say Gasol is the 3rd best PF, but he's disappeared in the last 2 postseasons for the Lakers.

Chronz
08-09-2012, 03:07 AM
My main point was that Griffin is a much deadlier player in the DEEP post and on the BLOCK. If you're talking about 16 or 17 foot turnarounds from the HIGH post then of course Aldridge has him beat there. Better overall post up player I'd have to agree due to his versatility in the post over Griffin and the fact that he can beat you at different ranges in the post. Once the guy said BLOCK though is what I didn't agree with.

His point is about back to the basket scoring tho. Not simply finishing plays off a variety of looks, like I said, the stats you told me to look at suggest he is finishing in the paint at a higher rate because most of them are likely to come off the PnR and off putbacks, this isnt the same as what hes suggesting.

So again I ask you, what do you have to support the notion that Griffin is better with his BACK TO THE BASKET ON THE LOW BLOCK?

Swashcuff
08-09-2012, 10:37 AM
Dude seriously, go back and read the posts.

In one post you complain that I bring up team success without considering supporting cast. Then I clarify that the cast doesnt explain the disparity in the 2 teams success. Then you go back to saying I dont consider external factors.

Your not making ANY kind of sense right now.

Either you think Im ignoring external factors or you dont. And if your now trying to say that I actually do consider them then your admitting to what a waste of time the previous posts have been.

I pity you. You lack of reading comprehension is astounding.