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NYSpirit1
08-06-2012, 11:35 PM
Garnett is one of the greatest players ever, probably top 50 and one of the top 5 of his generation.

Before the Celtics, Garnett had an identical playoff record to Carmelo, as did Pierce and as did Allen. They all came together and are looked at as perennial winners now.

Except, no one can stop talking about Carmelo only being to the Conference Finals once and only having one real run. Except the same can be said for all the guys above. As a Knicks fan, it's annoying to hear.

Melo's 27 going on 28. He's still young. And the Knicks have a good enough team to at least get the second round this year. It's irritating to hear that he's a loser, when none of his teams have ever really been good enough to go far, as were the Timberwolves, Bucks and Celtics pre-Big Three.

This Knicks team is the first healthy team since Stoudemire arrived. The past two years, we've landed some of the worst playoff matchups in the first round. They landed the defending conference champion Celtics in 2011 and the defending conference champion and eventual champion Heat in 2012.

They get home court advantage in the regular season, they pretty much advance.

I can't wait til Melo puts an end to this nonstop, 'selfish' and 'loser' talk.

Avenged
08-06-2012, 11:35 PM
You mean loser?

b@llhog24
08-06-2012, 11:37 PM
Garnett is one of the greatest players ever, probably top 50 and one of the top 5 of his generation.

Before the Celtics, Garnett had an identical playoff record to Carmelo, as did Pierce and as did Allen. They all came together and are looked at as perennial winners now.

Except, no one can stop talking about Carmelo only being to the Conference Finals once and only having one real run. Except the same can be said for all the guys above. As a Knicks fan, it's annoying to hear.

Melo's 27 going on 28. He's still young. And the Knicks have a good enough team to at least get the second round this year. It's irritating to hear that he's a loser, when none of his teams have ever really been good enough to go far, as were the Timberwolves, Bucks and Celtics pre-Big Three.

This Knicks team is the first healthy team since Stoudemire arrived. The past two years, we've landed some of the worst playoff matchups in the first round. They landed the defending conference champion Celtics in 2011 and the defending conference champion and eventual champion Heat in 2012.

They get home court advantage in the regular season, they pretty much advance.

I can't wait til Melo puts an end to this nonstop, 'selfish' and 'loser' talk.

Stopped reading right there.

Chronz
08-06-2012, 11:38 PM
Lots of players didnt win, but few superstars lose in the fashion that Melo has, thus I can only conclude that hes merely a star. I never saw KG get locked down to the degree that Melo has in quite a few playoff games. Ive never seen Melo push a clearly superior team to the brink, most of the time in those situations hes losing in 5.

Its not just about winning and losing, its about how you win and what you get out of your talent when you lose. Like when KG took the Lakers to 6 while playing pointguard in spurts.

Hotone1401
08-06-2012, 11:42 PM
Garnett was the undisputed leader of the T'Wolves and he was a better player on both sides of the ball than Melo, Ray, and Pierce.

KG was undoubtedly the best at his position during his era. I consider Duncan more of a center. Pierce, Melo, and Ray could never make that claim.

You really can't compare those players to KG. All 3 players you mentioned had or have big deficiencies in their game in one facet or another. KG has no weaknesses. The guy could pass, rebound, score with the best, and defend better than anyone.

tredigs
08-06-2012, 11:43 PM
Stopped reading right there.

Because he's clearly higher than just top 50, right?



You'd only think Garnett is a "perennial winner" if you're 14. But he was devoid of talent relative to some of the other stars you're trying to lop him in with. He was an absolute monster of a player in his youth - could have been the best player on 15 different title contenders.

justinnum1
08-06-2012, 11:44 PM
Lots of players didnt win, but few superstars lose in the fashion that Melo has, thus I can only conclude that hes merely a star. I never saw KG get locked down to the degree that Melo has in quite a few playoff games. Ive never seen Melo push a clearly superior team to the brink, most of the time in those situations hes losing in 5.

Its not just about winning and losing, its about how you win and what you get out of your talent when you lose. Like when KG took the Lakers to 6 while playing pointguard in spurts.

well said.

seikou8
08-06-2012, 11:44 PM
please stop it probably top 50 ?:facepalm: stop with the melo threads can we just wait til the season starts we cant judge him now.

DoMeFavors
08-06-2012, 11:44 PM
What does Garnett have to do with Carmelo? One cares about winning and losing and actually cried in an interview about it and the other (carmelo) could careless.

beasted86
08-06-2012, 11:46 PM
Lots of players didnt win, but few superstars lose in the fashion that Melo has, thus I can only conclude that hes merely a star. I never saw KG get locked down to the degree that Melo has in quite a few playoff games. Ive never seen Melo push a clearly superior team to the brink, most of the time in those situations hes losing in 5.

Its not just about winning and losing, its about how you win and what you get out of your talent when you lose. Like when KG took the Lakers to 6 while playing pointguard in spurts.

This.

Often Carmelo hasn't played all that well in the playoffs either. Garnett put up 24 PTS / 19 REB / 5 AST through a playoff series and his team got swept in the first round. Not to mention he's 10x more of a leader than Carmelo and his defense is just simply on another planet in comparison. If Carmelo played like Garnett was playing the criticism wouldn't be there. It also isn't like T-Mac on Orlando where he had crap teammates. Carmelo had some good supporting casts, and went out with a sweep or 5 game ousting most of the time.

seikou8
08-06-2012, 11:46 PM
garnett does what melo doesn't want to do, play great defense / thread

Hawkeye15
08-06-2012, 11:48 PM
Lots of players didnt win, but few superstars lose in the fashion that Melo has, thus I can only conclude that hes merely a star. I never saw KG get locked down to the degree that Melo has in quite a few playoff games. Ive never seen Melo push a clearly superior team to the brink, most of the time in those situations hes losing in 5.

Its not just about winning and losing, its about how you win and what you get out of your talent when you lose. Like when KG took the Lakers to 6 while playing pointguard in spurts.

Ugh, I so want to expand on this because I agree, but I just don't have the energy.

mrblisterdundee
08-06-2012, 11:48 PM
Guys like Garnett prove that it's about the team you play on. Chris Webber looked like a perennial loser because he played for the Kings, yet if you had put him on a good team, he would have continued his dominance and probably won at least one championship.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2012, 11:49 PM
Don't ever compare Melo and KG. Please. Literally polar opposites.

beasted86
08-06-2012, 11:50 PM
By the way on the topic of Allen and Pierce, they didn't get nearly the hype or talk that Carmelo does. There are a lot of Carmelo fans who have had him in the top 10 of NBA players for all of his career except the first 2 seasons. Allen and Pierce have never been considered such, and at best had 1 or 2 season where people considered them top 10. As a matter of fact, there are few seasons either was considered top 2 at their respective position while Carmelo fans have wanted to keep him at the #2 SF spot for ages.

b@llhog24
08-06-2012, 11:51 PM
Because he's clearly higher than just top 50, right?


Of course, without putting much thought into it KG is a top 30 player easily.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 12:03 AM
tredigs, KG is a top 20 player all time.

Bruno
08-07-2012, 12:09 AM
Stopped reading right there.

x2.

ball4reel
08-07-2012, 12:11 AM
Its bad enough when every other fan base wants to make Knick threads so they can get bashed. But this guy does it does it every week and I think is a knick fan..If you are trying to validate the Knicks atleast wait till they play some games this yr

tredigs
08-07-2012, 12:13 AM
Of course, without putting much thought into it KG is a top 30 player easily.

Just making sure. I couldn't tell.



tredigs, KG is a top 20 player all time.

Yeah, somewhere 16-21 for me depending on how we're ranking.

xxplayerxx23
08-07-2012, 12:15 AM
Lots of players didnt win, but few superstars lose in the fashion that Melo has, thus I can only conclude that hes merely a star. I never saw KG get locked down to the degree that Melo has in quite a few playoff games. Ive never seen Melo push a clearly superior team to the brink, most of the time in those situations hes losing in 5.

Its not just about winning and losing, its about how you win and what you get out of your talent when you lose. Like when KG took the Lakers to 6 while playing pointguard in spurts.

Melo Took LA to 6? He is nowhere near KG but he hasn't had clear advantages where his team should of won.

xnick5757
08-07-2012, 12:19 AM
tredigs, KG is a top 20 player all time.

I think he's top 15

Wade>You
08-07-2012, 12:24 AM
There was a perception about Garnett that he couldn't win at that time, that he was all stats. But it's obvious he didn't have a FO that could the put pieces around him. His best teammates were Sam Cassell (http://fansofmediocrity.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/sam_cassell_smiles.jpg) and Latrell Sprewell. They're superstar roleplayers, but not the cornerstones to a title team. And they still made it to the WCF that year.

PurpleJesus
08-07-2012, 12:29 AM
Basketball is a team game. Put Garnett who couldnt get out of the 1st round, on a team with Cassel and Sprewell, and he gets to the Western Conference Championship, even better, put him with Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, and they win the NBA championship. Garnett was the same player he was on that championship team, as he was on the one who couldnt get out of the 1st round...difference is, he had teammates.

Put Melo with better teammates, and...oh wait, he is surrounded by an all star 1 year removed, and the DPOY, and he still cant win.

xxplayerxx23
08-07-2012, 12:33 AM
Lol Amare was hurt all year. this is the first real year Melo should be judged in terms of Knicks. No amare no Billups year 1, No Lin,Shump,Amare(for one game). No excuses for Melo this year.

mRc08
08-07-2012, 12:48 AM
How is this NBA thread worthy? There is a Knick forum right?

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 12:53 AM
Just making sure. I couldn't tell.


Nah, I can make some ridiculous assertions when I'm ready but I try not to go into the insane realm of my mind on PSD. The stupid level is already too high on here.


Melo Took LA to 6? He is nowhere near KG but he hasn't had clear advantages where his team should of won.

*Cleary superior. The Nuggets that year were stacked.

Toastyy
08-07-2012, 12:57 AM
Someone on this site should do a "stupid things Knicks fans say" video, there's just too much great material

Punk
08-07-2012, 12:58 AM
Garnett is one of the greatest players ever, probably top 50 and one of the top 5 of his generation.

Before the Celtics, Garnett had an identical playoff record to Carmelo, as did Pierce and as did Allen. They all came together and are looked at as perennial winners now.

Except, no one can stop talking about Carmelo only being to the Conference Finals once and only having one real run. Except the same can be said for all the guys above. As a Knicks fan, it's annoying to hear.

Melo's 27 going on 28. He's still young. And the Knicks have a good enough team to at least get the second round this year. It's irritating to hear that he's a loser, when none of his teams have ever really been good enough to go far, as were the Timberwolves, Bucks and Celtics pre-Big Three.

This Knicks team is the first healthy team since Stoudemire arrived. The past two years, we've landed some of the worst playoff matchups in the first round. They landed the defending conference champion Celtics in 2011 and the defending conference champion and eventual champion Heat in 2012.

They get home court advantage in the regular season, they pretty much advance.

I can't wait til Melo puts an end to this nonstop, 'selfish' and 'loser' talk.

Pretty much. Yet, people will find away to ignore these facts. NY was 3 games out of the 4th seed which Boston clinched after Boston got on a late run towards the end of the season.

Long as NY gets a favorable matchup, they are likely to advance. As they should have last year and should this year.

Also, remember these facts come down to Garnett, Allen all being "likeable"

xxplayerxx23
08-07-2012, 12:59 AM
Nah, I can make some ridiculous assertions when I'm ready but I try not to go into the insane realm of my mind on PSD. The stupid level is already too high on here.



*Cleary superior. The Nuggets that year were stacked.


KGs teams werent that great I agree. Melo's team wasn't bad but the Lakers team was by far superior. He came up big but came up short. Like I said this year is no exucse

Punk
08-07-2012, 01:04 AM
KG's teams were not good at all. It was good enough for the players back then though. Melo's team wasn't great offensively beyond him and his bigs were Nene, Camby, Martin, Anderson who were Nuggets for most, if not all of his tenure with the Nuggets and they were injury prone bigs who were never really healthy come playoff time.

This 2012 Knicks team is by far the best roster he has played with to date with a better defensive coach. No excuses. He should have the same success Garnett had playing with a superior roster when he got to Boston.

Chronz
08-07-2012, 01:06 AM
Melo Took LA to 6?
I know he did.


He is nowhere near KG but he hasn't had clear advantages where his team should of won.

Re-read my post, I never expected Melo to win, I expected him not to get shut down so often and to get more out of his teams.

aman_13
08-07-2012, 01:08 AM
tredigs, KG is a top 20 player all time.

Where do you rank Charles Barkley? Where would you rank him If he won a ring? I apologize for changing the subject but just had to ask.

PurpleJesus
08-07-2012, 01:08 AM
KG's teams were not good at all. It was good enough for the players back then though. Melo's team wasn't great offensively beyond him and his bigs were Nene, Camby, Martin, Anderson who were Nuggets for most, if not all of his tenure with the Nuggets and they were injury prone bigs who were never really healthy come playoff time.

This 2012 Knicks team is by far the best roster he has played with to date with a better defensive coach. No excuses. He should have the same success Garnett had playing with a superior roster when he got to Boston.

holy **** man! a post by a Knicks fan that makes complete sense. This post should sum up the entire conversation in this thread...to me, you just ended the conversation with this post. This should be the conclusion of the thread, and a mod should close it.

Longhornfan1234
08-07-2012, 01:14 AM
KG is the greatest PF of all-time...and top 15 player of all-time. Melo is not even top 15 SF of all-time. Melo shouldn't be mention in the same breathe as KG.

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 01:17 AM
Pretty much. Yet, people will find away to ignore these facts. NY was 3 games out of the 4th seed which Boston clinched after Boston got on a late run towards the end of the season.

Long as NY gets a favorable matchup, they are likely to advance. As they should have last year and should this year.

Also, remember these facts come down to Garnett, Allen all being "likeable"

This statement would have more credence to it if it was a 82 game season.


KGs teams werent that great I agree. Melo's team wasn't bad but the Lakers team was by far superior. He came up big but came up short. Like I said this year is no exucse

How so?


KG's teams were not good at all. It was good enough for the players back then though. Melo's team wasn't great offensively beyond him and his bigs were Nene, Camby, Martin, Anderson who were Nuggets for most, if not all of his tenure with the Nuggets and they were injury prone bigs who were never really healthy come playoff time.

This 2012 Knicks team is by far the best roster he has played with to date with a better defensive coach. No excuses. He should have the same success Garnett had playing with a superior roster when he got to Boston.

:laugh:

DoMeFavors
08-07-2012, 01:21 AM
It killed KG when he lost games in the playoffs especially in 2004, you would never see KG down in the series 3-0 start smiling like Melo does. Why does he even do that?

Vee-Rex
08-07-2012, 01:24 AM
Lots of players didnt win, but few superstars lose in the fashion that Melo has, thus I can only conclude that hes merely a star. I never saw KG get locked down to the degree that Melo has in quite a few playoff games. Ive never seen Melo push a clearly superior team to the brink, most of the time in those situations hes losing in 5.

Its not just about winning and losing, its about how you win and what you get out of your talent when you lose. Like when KG took the Lakers to 6 while playing pointguard in spurts.

This post wins the thread.

Anyway, if Melo is the best player on the team they're not going to win a championship. Add in Amare, Lin (too bad Lin is gone), and it still won't matter. Melo isn't good at getting his other teammates involved and play a rather selfish game. He has great talent, but he isn't suited for winning rings.

Talent wins games. Teamwork and Intelligence wins championships.

- Michael Jordan

John Walls Era
08-07-2012, 01:25 AM
So the OP is the second coming of Jordan Bulls.

DoMeFavors
08-07-2012, 01:26 AM
4:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpAv_ao7rBs

bucketss
08-07-2012, 01:30 AM
KG's teams were not good at all. It was good enough for the players back then though. Melo's team wasn't great offensively beyond him and his bigs were Nene, Camby, Martin, Anderson who were Nuggets for most, if not all of his tenure with the Nuggets and they were injury prone bigs who were never really healthy come playoff time.

This 2012 Knicks team is by far the best roster he has played with to date with a better defensive coach. No excuses. He should have the same success Garnett had playing with a superior roster when he got to Boston.

lol what the hell are you talking about? the team melo had that went to the wcf was more talented i can't believe you said "by far" best roster he has played with:facepalm:

Punk
08-07-2012, 03:33 AM
This statement would have more credence to it if it was a 82 game season.



How so?



:laugh:
Ah Yes. The offensively great Nuggets who were 7th in offense with a core group of role players of Balkman, Anderson, Martin, Jason Hart, Johan Petro, Juwan Howard, Sonny Weems and Dahanty Jones.

The only true offensive weapons: Melo, JR, Billups, Keliza.

How could I forget such an offensive Juggernaut.


This post wins the thread.

Anyway, if Melo is the best player on the team they're not going to win a championship. Add in Amare, Lin (too bad Lin is gone), and it still won't matter. Melo isn't good at getting his other teammates involved and play a rather selfish game. He has great talent, but he isn't suited for winning rings.

Talent wins games. Teamwork and Intelligence wins championships.

- Michael Jordan

That's actually not true. He has every ablity to win a championship and all the talent. He has simply not been given the proper situation. Amare needs to play ALOT better and Lin wasn't doing to help us win, he never played a playoff game in his life yet.

Melo averaged a career high in assists last season despite playing with Toney Douglas and Landry Fields for most of the season who both shot like 30% on open shots....I'm serious.

There is alot be accounted for to show why he hasn't gotten deep into the playoffs with that Denver team. He faced the Lakers in the first round twice (both championship teams), Spurs in the first round (championship team), faced the WCF Timberwolves and his own letdown series was against the Clippers. The Nuggets were simply playing trash basketball against Utah and that was on Billups who got destroyed by Deron defensively. Plus the injury prone Nene, Martin, Anderson as well.

Melo has faced more championship teams in the first round than any star who's gotten deep into the playoffs. Durant only faced LA once in the first round.


lol what the hell are you talking about? the team melo had that went to the wcf was more talented i can't believe you said "by far" best roster he has played with:facepalm:

7th in offense, 8th in defense.

Billups/Carter/Hart/Atkins
Jones/JR/Weems
Melo/Kleiza/Balkman
Martin/Jo.Howard
Nene/Anderson/Petro

is a talented team compared to

5th in defense.

Felton/Kidd/Prigoni
Shumpert/JR
Melo/Brewer/White
Amare/Novak/Thomas
Chandler/Camby

?

Losoway
08-07-2012, 05:24 AM
Kg was a monster in his prime . Melo is still a beast but melo doesnt really care about winning like that ..he has been winning all his life (high school ,college) i think its more about money and endorsements for melo.....but idk this summer olympics it looks like he is awake now

Faberg
08-07-2012, 06:59 AM
Let's see...

2004 - Nuggets lose 1st Rd to Timberwolves 4-1 (Kevin Garnett NBA MVP)
2005 - Nuggets lose 1st Rd to Spurs 4-1 (Spurs win 2005 Championship)
2006 - Nuggets lose 1st Rd to Clippers 4-1
(Despite being a 3rd seed with a 44-38 record, the Clippers had a better record as a 6th seed, 47-35. This later prompted playoff seeding changes in 2007)

2007 - Nuggets lose 1st Rd to Spurs 4-1 (Spurs win 2007 Championship)
2008 - Nuggets lose 1st Rd to Lakers 4-0 (Lakers go on to NBA Finals)
2009 - Nuggets lose WCF to Lakers 4-2 (Chauncey Billups arrives; Lakers win 2009 Championship)
2010 - Nuggets lose 1st Rd to Jazz 4-2 (Adrian Dantley loses control of team w/ George Karl undergoing chemotherapy)

Basketball is a team game. It's not 1 player vs a whole team. Outside of the 2010 playoffs where they lost to Utah, all those teams the Nuggets lost to in the first round were favored and were supposed to win.

People act like those Nuggets team prior to the Chauncey Billups trade were great. They weren't that good. Nene was always injury prone. They had unreliable SG depth. What also goes under the radar is that their front office made very questionable moves that hurt them in the long haul. (Sign-and-trading for an injury prone Kenyon Martin in 2004. Giving him a max 7 year, $95M contract in exchange for 3 future first round picks which tied their cap space up & crippled their ability to add cheaper talent via the draft. Trading pass first PG Andre Miller for another volume scorer, Allen Iverson.) :facepalm:

Carmelo has his flaws. He's a lazy defender. Not an efficient scorer. He doesn't elevate his teammates' play. He's unfairly compared to LeBron James just because they were drafted in the same class. He is what he is. A prolific scorer. Don't get the 'selfish' label. He's a willing passer if players can make shots. His teammates (Douglas/Fields mainly) outside of Steve Novak could not.

bigsams50
08-07-2012, 06:59 AM
4:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpAv_ao7rBs

Beat me to it. :D There is no comparison between Melo and KG.

justinnum1
08-07-2012, 08:49 AM
KG is the greatest PF of all-time...and top 15 player of all-time. Melo is not even top 15 SF of all-time. Melo shouldn't be mention in the same breathe as KG.

Must be to young to know who tim Duncan is

nycericanguy
08-07-2012, 08:56 AM
I'm not a huge Melo fan, but why don't we think back to the last 2 years in NY and who Melo has played with in the playoffs. Because some of the lineups he's been out there due to injuries have been comedy.

I'd like to see Melo play a series with a lineup of

Kidd/Felton
Shump/JR
Melo/Brewer/Novak
Amare
Chandler/Camby

If he still gets swept then he's a failure.

But if you have

Bibby
JR
Melo
Amare with 1 hand
Chandler with a flu

or go back 1 year before

TD
Walker
Melo
Williams
JJ

if anyone is expecting Melo to beat BOS or MIA with those lineups then you are greatly over estimating his greatness, because I don't think Lebron or MJ himself could win with those lineups.

Knicks21
08-07-2012, 09:10 AM
**** it is already a Knicks thread.

KingPosey
08-07-2012, 09:26 AM
Guys like Garnett prove that it's about the team you play on. Chris Webber looked like a perennial loser because he played for the Kings, yet if you had put him on a good team, he would have continued his dominance and probably won at least one championship.

lol youre crazy, no one considers Webber a perennial loser, especially with the 2002 WCFs. People know what happened there.

And what cost Webber was a career altering knee injury, get your info together man.

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 09:31 AM
Ah Yes. The offensively great Nuggets who were 7th in offense with a core group of role players of Balkman, Anderson, Martin, Jason Hart, Johan Petro, Juwan Howard, Sonny Weems and Dahanty Jones.

The only true offensive weapons: Melo, JR, Billups, Keliza.

How could I forget such an offensive Juggernaut.



That's actually not true. He has every ablity to win a championship and all the talent. He has simply not been given the proper situation. Amare needs to play ALOT better and Lin wasn't doing to help us win, he never played a playoff game in his life yet.

Melo averaged a career high in assists last season despite playing with Toney Douglas and Landry Fields for most of the season who both shot like 30% on open shots....I'm serious.

There is alot be accounted for to show why he hasn't gotten deep into the playoffs with that Denver team. He faced the Lakers in the first round twice (both championship teams), Spurs in the first round (championship team), faced the WCF Timberwolves and his own letdown series was against the Clippers. The Nuggets were simply playing trash basketball against Utah and that was on Billups who got destroyed by Deron defensively. Plus the injury prone Nene, Martin, Anderson as well.

Melo has faced more championship teams in the first round than any star who's gotten deep into the playoffs. Durant only faced LA once in the first round.



7th in offense, 8th in defense.

Billups/Carter/Hart/Atkins
Jones/JR/Weems
Melo/Kleiza/Balkman
Martin/Jo.Howard
Nene/Anderson/Petro

is a talented team compared to

5th in defense.

Felton/Kidd/Prigoni
Shumpert/JR
Melo/Brewer/White
Amare/Novak/Thomas
Chandler/Camby

?

I'm getting tired of arguing against one of my favorite players in the league, so I'm even going to bother responding to this.


Must be to young to know who tim Duncan is

Yet he knows who KG is? :eyebrow:

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 09:32 AM
Where do you rank Charles Barkley? Where would you rank him If he won a ring? I apologize for changing the subject but just had to ask.

Since Duncan will always go down as a PF, even though he played center for a decade, it goes, for me:

1. Duncan
2A. Barkley
2B. KG

IIISSKiLL
08-07-2012, 10:15 AM
Knick fans are annoying.. LeBron was a loser until he won a championship, Melo's a loser until he gets to the 2nd round with the Knicks.. shut up and let the knicks fail you again this season

eternal slumber
08-07-2012, 10:31 AM
Since Duncan will always go down as a PF, even though he played center for a decade, it goes, for me:

1. Duncan
2A. Barkley
2B. KG

aren't you forgetting someone named Karl Malone?

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 10:35 AM
aren't you forgetting someone named Karl Malone?

nope. He comes after these 3. Directly after in fact.

Longhornfan1234
08-07-2012, 10:36 AM
Must be to young to know who tim Duncan is

:facepalm:


Duncan is a center.

Swashcuff
08-07-2012, 10:39 AM
No.

eternal slumber
08-07-2012, 10:44 AM
nope. He comes after these 3. Directly after in fact.

i agree with your choice making Duncan being #1 and making KG #2 but i would like to know why Barkley to you is also ranked #2 tied with KG and above Karl? i think Karl should be above Chuck making it like

1. TD
2. KG
3. Mailman
4. Chuck

eternal slumber
08-07-2012, 10:45 AM
btw seems like TD plays center but he ain't a center.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 10:52 AM
i agree with your choice making Duncan being #1 and making KG #2 but i would like to know why Barkley to you is also ranked #2 tied with KG and above Karl? i think Karl should be above Chuck making it like

1. TD
2. KG
3. Mailman
4. Chuck

Barkley, unlike KG, elevated his level of play come playoff time. Most forget how much of a beast he was in his peak. His advanced numbers look better than any PF. Malone was a special player, but how many of his numbers are a direct result of playing with arguably the best PG to ever play? Calm down Magic fans, I said arguably.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 10:54 AM
btw seems like TD plays center but he ain't a center.

his coach has even admitted he played center after D-Rob left. About the time Pops started using the stretch 4.

StinkEye
08-07-2012, 10:56 AM
I never thought I'd see the day where someone compared Melo and KG :facepalm:

I almost spewed milk all over my screen where I read about KG "probably" being a top 50 player.

Knicks fans must be embarrassed for this guy right here.

thekmp211
08-07-2012, 11:01 AM
the more appropriate comparison would be pierce to melo .. but christ no. just no. somebody stop this madness.

StinkEye
08-07-2012, 11:02 AM
Can somebody please think of the children!

eternal slumber
08-07-2012, 11:11 AM
Barkley, unlike KG, elevated his level of play come playoff time. Most forget how much of a beast he was in his peak. His advanced numbers look better than any PF. Malone was a special player, but how many of his numbers are a direct result of playing with arguably the best PG to ever play? Calm down Magic fans, I said arguably.

i agree as you pointed that Chuck raises his game at playoff time compares to KG but KG didn't had much help back at his Minnesota day. that team always are a first round exit except from that year he won MVP in 2004 (correct me if im wrong on the year.) when he had Sprewell and Cassell with him.

we all know how much effective a player can be with reliable teammates around and not being the only one needed a opposing defense can concentrate on.

i think if KG had a much better team, he could really have been that much effective comes playoff time.


on Malone. yeah i agree with you that his numbers might be a direct result of playing with Stockton all those years but you have to admit, he's done it constantly throughout his career whether playoffs or just within the season.

i never seen someone played so well for the longest time on a consistent basis and defying time as much as Karl Malone.

i know, Nash is at a very high level but Karl is something else. his position as a power forward, getting beat up night in and night out for 19 years is remarkable. we should also should add that if we talk about all time greats.

btw, im a Rocket fan buddy.

AllKohn
08-07-2012, 11:14 AM
Another thread about how someone suck or is a loser, geez what's with the negativity? Garnett has a ring and has been a superstar for over a decade- enjoy what the guy does! I'm sure it says more about you that you can find ways to tear down superstars, but for me it's just sad.

justinnum1
08-07-2012, 11:25 AM
Must be to young to know who tim Duncan is

:facepalm:


Duncan is a center.

:facepalm:

Duncan is the greatest power forward ever.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 11:31 AM
i agree as you pointed that Chuck raises his game at playoff time compares to KG but KG didn't had much help back at his Minnesota day. that team always are a first round exit except from that year he won MVP in 2004 (correct me if im wrong on the year.) when he had Sprewell and Cassell with him.

we all know how much effective a player can be with reliable teammates around and not being the only one needed a opposing defense can concentrate on.

i think if KG had a much better team, he could really have been that much effective comes playoff time.


on Malone. yeah i agree with you that his numbers might be a direct result of playing with Stockton all those years but you have to admit, he's done it constantly throughout his career whether playoffs or just within the season.

i never seen someone played so well for the longest time on a consistent basis and defying time as much as Karl Malone.

i know, Nash is at a very high level but Karl is something else. his position as a power forward, getting beat up night in and night out for 19 years is remarkable. we should also should add that if we talk about all time greats.

btw, im a Rocket fan buddy.

I am a die hard Wolves fan, so I am not going to argue to death someone who wants to put KG 2nd haha. For me, Garnett's lack of a killer instinct, which was shown over the years at the most crucial times in Minnesota, coupled with Barkley elevating his game come playoffs, knocks him just a smidgen below Barkley. As for Malone, longevity and overall numbers helps his case, but at no point did I think he was clearly the best player in basketball, unlike KG for a season, and he never had the peak statistics of Chuck.

eternal slumber
08-07-2012, 11:44 AM
I am a die hard Wolves fan, so I am not going to argue to death someone who wants to put KG 2nd haha. For me, Garnett's lack of a killer instinct, which was shown over the years at the most crucial times in Minnesota, coupled with Barkley elevating his game come playoffs, knocks him just a smidgen below Barkley. As for Malone, longevity and overall numbers helps his case, but at no point did I think he was clearly the best player in basketball, unlike KG for a season, and he never had the peak statistics of Chuck.

like i said, it is quite hard to be an effective player if you aren't around good teammates. we both know how much KG wants to win but it's quite hard to prove a players killer instinct.

i know people sees KG as a dirty player but i see a guy who really wants to win bad in any way that he could from taunting to his antics, and that why i really like him as a player.


Malone wasn't viewed as the best player in any year at his era because a certain player wearing jersey #23 and played for the Bulls all those years.
he might have been also a champion or a multiple champion player but that same certain player stood in his way.

but props to him, he did won an MVP in 1997.

StinkEye
08-07-2012, 11:54 AM
but props to him, he did won an MVP in 1997.
...and in 99.

aman_13
08-07-2012, 12:00 PM
Where do you rank Charles Barkley? Where would you rank him If he won a ring? I apologize for changing the subject but just had to ask.

Since Duncan will always go down as a PF, even though he played center for a decade, it goes, for me:

1. Duncan
2A. Barkley
2B. KG

Some would maybe put Malone ahead of Barkley but I have no problem with your rankings. I love Barkleys game, he is everything you can ask for in a pf.

StinkEye
08-07-2012, 12:06 PM
Some would maybe put Malone ahead of Barkley but I have no problem with your rankings. I love Barkleys game, he is everything you can ask for in a pf.

KG is everything you could ask for in a PF. Chuck is still one of my top 3 PFs, but he definitely lacked the height, and wasn't a prototypical PF at all. He was a unique player.

eternal slumber
08-07-2012, 12:09 PM
...and in 99.

i'm pointing to the year Mailman won an MVP while MJ is still playing but thanks for still mentioning it, heck i really forgot about it.

StinkEye
08-07-2012, 12:14 PM
i'm pointing to the year Mailman won an MVP while MJ is still playing but thanks for still mentioning it, heck i really forgot about it.

np. I figured that's what you were getting at too. I think it's fair to ignore MJ when comparing some of the great bigs of the last few decades.

eternal slumber
08-07-2012, 12:23 PM
np. I figured that's what you were getting at too. I think it's fair to ignore MJ when comparing some of the great bigs of the last few decades.

that's the thing about MJ, with likes of Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing, Shaq, Chuck and Mailman playing in the same era, a shooting guard dominated that certain era.

Punk
08-07-2012, 12:32 PM
I never thought I'd see the day where someone compared Melo and KG :facepalm:

I almost spewed milk all over my screen where I read about KG "probably" being a top 50 player.

Knicks fans must be embarrassed for this guy right here.

He's comparing their situations. There wasn't a single word where he compared them as players.

Stinkyoutsider
08-07-2012, 12:38 PM
It's all about who your teammates are and how the team is built around him.

Garnett isn't a loser and neither is Melo. It's hard to win and it's even harder when you don't have the guys around you that you need. If anything Melo is showing that he's not an adaptive type player. With the Wolves, Garnett did things his team needed. When Cassell and Spreewell were hitting shots and carrying the offensive load, Garnett locked down the paint. Can't really say that for Melo though.

Melo needs to become adaptive. He has Amare on his team and should know that Amare needs the ball. Melo should adapt to that and get guys like Amare the ball in spots they like. If someone else is stepping it up offensively, Melo should look to play lock down defense and keep the ball moving. If his team needs baskets and noone is scoring, then that's the time Melo should ISO and get his shots.

Same thing Lebron learned this year. If you're the best player out there, do things on the court no one else on your team can/will do.

DWhiteTheTruth
08-07-2012, 12:49 PM
KG on the Wolves never played with another star in his prime.

aman_13
08-07-2012, 12:53 PM
Some would maybe put Malone ahead of Barkley but I have no problem with your rankings. I love Barkleys game, he is everything you can ask for in a pf.

KG is everything you could ask for in a PF. Chuck is still one of my top 3 PFs, but he definitely lacked the height, and wasn't a prototypical PF at all. He was a unique player.

Oh for sure, I'm not taking anything away from KG. I just like Barkley more because he was able to over come his height disadvantage every night by his hard work and skill set. He didn't let what he couldn't control prevent him from being successful.

StinkEye
08-07-2012, 12:58 PM
He's comparing their situations. There wasn't a single word where he compared them as players.

which thread are you reading?

By comparing their careers the way he's doing, he's essentially comparing them as players. It's an awful comparison. This thread deserves mockery.

KniCks4LiFe
08-07-2012, 01:17 PM
what a terrible comparison. To steal Sir Charles words. TERRRRRRRBLE

Wade>You
08-07-2012, 01:24 PM
I am a die hard Wolves fan, so I am not going to argue to death someone who wants to put KG 2nd haha. For me, Garnett's lack of a killer instinct, which was shown over the years at the most crucial times in Minnesota, coupled with Barkley elevating his game come playoffs, knocks him just a smidgen below Barkley. As for Malone, longevity and overall numbers helps his case, but at no point did I think he was clearly the best player in basketball, unlike KG for a season, and he never had the peak statistics of Chuck.That sounds like what fans of losing franchises say about players that leave their team. Heard the same thing about Chris Bosh from Raps fans, then the dude starts hitting GWers in the Finals and delivers in the clutch.

KniCks4LiFe
08-07-2012, 01:29 PM
You know that's a better comparison, although KG was a better defensive player. Bosh and KG, all jokes aside Bosh was clutch in these playoffs, he's prbly the main reason Miami won the NBA title aside from LeBron's heroics. Bosh was a good player, although not perennial loser, just seen as a B or C option on a team people never believed would go anywhere.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 01:38 PM
like i said, it is quite hard to be an effective player if you aren't around good teammates. we both know how much KG wants to win but it's quite hard to prove a players killer instinct.

i know people sees KG as a dirty player but i see a guy who really wants to win bad in any way that he could from taunting to his antics, and that why i really like him as a player.


Malone wasn't viewed as the best player in any year at his era because a certain player wearing jersey #23 and played for the Bulls all those years.
he might have been also a champion or a multiple champion player but that same certain player stood in his way.

but props to him, he did won an MVP in 1997.

Yeah, well, maybe take a slight salary cut instead of making 40% of the cap limit, and tell your agent to stop pressing for your buddies to get deals (Hudson, Smith, Hassell), and maybe don't freeze out your second best player (Wally).

Garnett gave his craft everything he had, but he wouldn't step up when needed, and made way too much money to keep sustained talent around him. McFail didn't help.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 01:40 PM
That sounds like what fans of losing franchises say about players that leave their team. Heard the same thing about Chris Bosh from Raps fans, then the dude starts hitting GWers in the Finals and delivers in the clutch.

Or fans of a star who refuses to own up and take the last shot, instead deferring to below average players to take a midrange shot. I was vocal about it when he was on the Wolves as well. For all the limitations Love has physically that will probably never allow him to surpass KG, at least he has balls.

StinkEye
08-07-2012, 02:02 PM
That sounds like what fans of losing franchises say about players that leave their team. Heard the same thing about Chris Bosh from Raps fans, then the dude starts hitting GWers in the Finals and delivers in the clutch.

It's hard to be clutch when you carry so much of your team's load. I know his teams weren't great but Bosh was a winner of a whopping 3 playoff games in his tenure with the Raptors. As good a player as Chris Bosh is, he can't hold KG's jockstrap.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 02:03 PM
It's hard to be clutch when you carry so much of your team's load. I know his teams weren't great but Bosh was a winner of a whopping 3 playoff games in his tenure with the Raptors. As good a player as Chris Bosh is, he can't hold KG's jockstrap.

When KG was in his prime, I remember Bosh being looked at as the poor man's KG basically. Tall, athletic, very perimeter based many nights.

colinskik
08-07-2012, 02:09 PM
It killed KG when he lost games in the playoffs especially in 2004, you would never see KG down in the series 3-0 start smiling like Melo does. Why does he even do that?
I know I'll probably get killed for this on here, but ...

I like Melo's demeanor on the court. He's not always clowning around, but he seems to realize he's playing a game, after all, and game's are supposed to be fun.

People think you need to have this killer instinct, basically be a dik when you're on the court to be successful, like the way KG is and the way MJ was. I don't think that's the case.

In that video link KG seems pretty foolish breaking down when he talks about losing. I mean, what are you, KG, a five year old? A sore loser who cries when he loses a game of Candy Land? I understand not wanting to lose, but it shouldn't cause a grown man to cry.

From what I've heard, Melo is supposedly one of the more likable guys, and it definitely shows when he's out there on the court.

StinkEye
08-07-2012, 02:10 PM
When KG was in his prime, I remember Bosh being looked at as the poor man's KG basically. Tall, athletic, very perimeter based many nights.

As do I. Bosh's ceiling is pretty much the floor of KG's prime (on offense, at least.) Bosh could never become the defender that KG was.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 02:11 PM
I know I'll probably get killed for this on here, but ...

I like Melo's demeanor on the court. He's not always clowning around, but he seems to realize he's playing a game, after all, and game's are supposed to be fun.

People think you need to have this killer instinct, basically be a dik when you're on the court to be successful, like the way KG is and the way MJ was. I don't think that's the case.

In that video link KG seems pretty foolish breaking down when he talks about losing. I mean, what are you, KG, a five year old? A sore loser who cries when he loses a game of Candy Land? I understand not wanting to lose, but it shouldn't cause a grown man to cry.

From what I've heard, Melo is supposedly one of the more likable guys, and it definitely shows when he's out there on the court.

You shouldn't get killed for an opinion you have formed about someone from viewing them. KG was maybe the most passionate player I have ever watched, but his emotional instability was also a weakness of his.

colinskik
08-07-2012, 02:11 PM
That sounds like what fans of losing franchises say about players that leave their team. Heard the same thing about Chris Bosh from Raps fans, then the dude starts hitting GWers in the Finals and delivers in the clutch.
Yeah, because he went from being the best player on a bad team to the third best player on a great team.

It's a lot easier to score buckets when the defense is concentrating on stopping two unstoppable scorers.

colinskik
08-07-2012, 02:14 PM
You shouldn't get killed for an opinion you have formed about someone from viewing them. KG was maybe the most passionate player I have ever watched, but his emotional instability was also a weakness of his.
You're right, I shouldn't, but people on here can take comments way overboard.

I stand by it though. I think basketball can only be taken seriously to certain extent. As a player, you have to recognize that. But maybe I'm just cut from a different cloth. Do anything you can do to win, but don't compromise your integrity.

There's more than one equation to success.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 02:20 PM
You're right, I shouldn't, but people on here can take comments way overboard.

I stand by it though. I think basketball can only be taken seriously to certain extent. As a player, you have to recognize that. But maybe I'm just cut from a different cloth. Do anything you can do to win, but don't compromise your integrity.

There's more than one equation to success.

I don't have any problem with this honestly.

colinskik
08-07-2012, 02:37 PM
I don't have any problem with this honestly.
Noted

Ill21
08-07-2012, 02:42 PM
This might be one of the worst comparisons I have ever seen.

DoMeFavors
08-07-2012, 03:12 PM
KG to me is the greatest PF of all time above Tim Duncan

BigCityofDreams
08-07-2012, 03:44 PM
I know I'll probably get killed for this on here, but ...

I like Melo's demeanor on the court. He's not always clowning around, but he seems to realize he's playing a game, after all, and game's are supposed to be fun.

People think you need to have this killer instinct, basically be a dik when you're on the court to be successful, like the way KG is and the way MJ was. I don't think that's the case.

In that video link KG seems pretty foolish breaking down when he talks about losing. I mean, what are you, KG, a five year old? A sore loser who cries when he loses a game of Candy Land? I understand not wanting to lose, but it shouldn't cause a grown man to cry.

From what I've heard, Melo is supposedly one of the more likable guys, and it definitely shows when he's out there on the court.

I'm surprised someone would have that reaction to him crying about losing.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 03:46 PM
I'm surprised someone who have that reaction to him crying about losing.

KG's non-stop passion, emotion, and loyalty are things his fans will always love about him, and his haters always despise of him. It won me over, but became a nuisance later in his Wolves tenure, and has turned him into a bully after he won a chip.

BigCityofDreams
08-07-2012, 03:52 PM
KG's non-stop passion, emotion, and loyalty are things his fans will always love about him, and his haters always despise of him. It won me over, but became a nuisance later in his Wolves tenure, and has turned him into a bully after he won a chip.

I agree since winning the chip he is a bully and it's disgusting to see him act that way on the court.

avrpatsfan
08-07-2012, 03:59 PM
KG never had the kind of supporting cast Melo has had in his career before he was traded to Boston.

They aren't comparable. Melo is a chucker. KG is a top 25 all time player.

mamba24
08-07-2012, 04:02 PM
Garnett was the undisputed leader of the T'Wolves and he was a better player on both sides of the ball than Melo, Ray, and Pierce.

KG was undoubtedly the best at his position during his era. I consider Duncan more of a center. Pierce, Melo, and Ray could never make that claim.

You really can't compare those players to KG. All 3 players you mentioned had or have big deficiencies in their game in one facet or another. KG has no weaknesses. The guy could pass, rebound, score with the best, and defend better than anyone.

Can anyone tell me why Duncan is considered a center? I used to think that way myself BUT I don't really think the same way anymore. Why isn't he considered a power forward?

DoMeFavors
08-07-2012, 04:12 PM
KG never wanted to leave minnesota he was always loyal, but now he talks trash about the franchise.

I Rock Shaqs
08-07-2012, 04:20 PM
Stopped reading right there.

So you don't think he is a top 50 player? Or you think he is easily a top 50 player?

bucketss
08-07-2012, 04:42 PM
Ah Yes. The offensively great Nuggets who were 7th in offense with a core group of role players of Balkman, Anderson, Martin, Jason Hart, Johan Petro, Juwan Howard, Sonny Weems and Dahanty Jones.

The only true offensive weapons: Melo, JR, Billups, Keliza.

How could I forget such an offensive Juggernaut.



That's actually not true. He has every ablity to win a championship and all the talent. He has simply not been given the proper situation. Amare needs to play ALOT better and Lin wasn't doing to help us win, he never played a playoff game in his life yet.

Melo averaged a career high in assists last season despite playing with Toney Douglas and Landry Fields for most of the season who both shot like 30% on open shots....I'm serious.

There is alot be accounted for to show why he hasn't gotten deep into the playoffs with that Denver team. He faced the Lakers in the first round twice (both championship teams), Spurs in the first round (championship team), faced the WCF Timberwolves and his own letdown series was against the Clippers. The Nuggets were simply playing trash basketball against Utah and that was on Billups who got destroyed by Deron defensively. Plus the injury prone Nene, Martin, Anderson as well.

Melo has faced more championship teams in the first round than any star who's gotten deep into the playoffs. Durant only faced LA once in the first round.



7th in offense, 8th in defense.

Billups/Carter/Hart/Atkins
Jones/JR/Weems
Melo/Kleiza/Balkman
Martin/Jo.Howard
Nene/Anderson/Petro

is a talented team compared to

5th in defense.

Felton/Kidd/Prigoni
Shumpert/JR
Melo/Brewer/White
Amare/Novak/Thomas
Chandler/Camby

?

why did you only list 5th in defense for the knicks where do they rank in offense? and obviously that team for the knicks hasn't even played a game yet how the hell can they be 5th in defense? not even going into the fact one of the teams played in a much tougher conf.

let me examine the knicks roster. you have felton coming of one of his worst seasons, you have kidd who is like 40 yrs old, an unknown rookie, shumpert who is just coming off a serious injury, amare a shell of his former self and another 40 yr old camby.

nene is better than amare, billups was avg nearly 20 points a game and is better than any pg on the knicks roster,martin was averaging nearly a double double,

melo and candler are the only valuable guys on that squad.

nysportsfan02
08-07-2012, 04:52 PM
Since Duncan will always go down as a PF, even though he played center for a decade, it goes, for me:

1. Duncan
2A. Barkley
2B. KG
Why no respect for Dirk?

Dirk is better than KG.

I don't get it.

Dirk has a decade's worth of leading teams in the West with multiple years of 60 wins, 2 Finals appearance, FMVP, better playoff performer,etc.

A Dirk team would never miss the playoffs 3 straight years.

So what KG is better defensively. Dirk is a superior offensive player, not like he's a scrub on defense, and his impact is greater to a team.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 04:56 PM
Why no respect for Dirk?

Dirk is better than KG.

I don't get it.

Dirk has a decade's worth of leading teams in the West with multiple years of 60 wins, 2 Finals appearance, FMVP, better playoff performer,etc.

A Dirk team would never miss the playoffs 3 straight years.

So what KG is better defensively. Dirk is a superior offensive player, not like he's a scrub on defense, and his impact is greater to a team.

KG's superior defensive has a greater gap then what Dirk's offense is over Garnett. Did you forget KG set an NBA record, passing Larry Bird with 7 straight 20-10-5 seasons? KG is the better passer, rebounder, and miles better defensively. Dirk is behind Malone in my rankings.

Look at Dirk's rosters dude. Honestly, they should be embarrassed they won only 1 chip with the talent they had over the last decade.

KnicksorBust
08-07-2012, 04:57 PM
Comparing Melo to KG is just wrong. The specific debate on KG's postseason success has been debated at lenght. http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=721145&highlight=garnett+choke

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 04:58 PM
So you don't think he is a top 50 player? Or you think he is easily a top 50 player?

The latter.

justinnum1
08-07-2012, 05:12 PM
KG is currently top 25-30 all time imo.

KnickaBocka.44
08-07-2012, 05:17 PM
which thread are you reading?

By comparing their careers the way he's doing, he's essentially comparing them as players. It's an awful comparison. This thread deserves mockery.


This is not true. What the OP is doing is comparing their perceptions because up until these points in their career, they have achieved the same amount of success in a team context. Fairly or not, Carmelo gets criticized more so than Garnett was. Garnett played with a distinct fire and intensity, which makes him very likable to many people, including myself. It has to be said though, that same passion took him over the edge and made him a jerk sometimes.

The question really being asked here is: why does carmelo get hated on so much when a player like KG had just as little team success??

meloman1592
08-07-2012, 05:23 PM
Lots of players didnt win, but few superstars lose in the fashion that Melo has, thus I can only conclude that hes merely a star. I never saw KG get locked down to the degree that Melo has in quite a few playoff games. Ive never seen Melo push a clearly superior team to the brink, most of the time in those situations hes losing in 5.

Its not just about winning and losing, its about how you win and what you get out of your talent when you lose. Like when KG took the Lakers to 6 while playing pointguard in spurts.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I've never seen Carmelo get shut down...can you point out a specific game? When I think of "shut down" or "lock down" I think of what Dahntay Jones did to Cp3 a few years back in the denver vs NO series

blastmasta26
08-07-2012, 05:23 PM
Can anyone tell me why Duncan is considered a center? I used to think that way myself BUT I don't really think the same way anymore. Why isn't he considered a power forward?
Well he is generally considered a PF in all-time rankings, but he's played center for at least a large portion of his career. Popovich said Duncan has been the center for the past 15 years and whether that's an exaggeration or not, it shows that Duncan has definitely played a lot of 5.

JordansBulls
08-07-2012, 05:30 PM
tredigs, KG is a top 20 player all time.

He barely made it here.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

JordansBulls
08-07-2012, 05:34 PM
While I agree with the rest of your post, I've never seen Carmelo get shut down...can you point out a specific game? When I think of "shut down" or "lock down" I think of what Dahntay Jones did to Cp3 a few years back in the denver vs NO series

He has played 54 playoff games in his career and only has a 4.56 Win Shares. In 4 playoff runs he has shot between 33-38% FG (all first round losses).

Hawkeye15
08-07-2012, 05:56 PM
He barely made it here.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

Well, I am not really in agreement of many polls done on this site to be honest. I believe KG is top 20, no doubt.

bucketss
08-07-2012, 06:29 PM
This is not true. What the OP is doing is comparing their perceptions because up until these points in their career, they have achieved the same amount of success in a team context. Fairly or not, Carmelo gets criticized more so than Garnett was. Garnett played with a distinct fire and intensity, which makes him very likable to many people, including myself. It has to be said though, that same passion took him over the edge and made him a jerk sometimes.

The question really being asked here is: why does carmelo get hated on so much when a player like KG had just as little team success??

Because he plays in new york, and the knick fans are the most annoying over hyping fans on this planet. Did melo ever get hated on in denver? nope.

colinskik
08-07-2012, 07:22 PM
I'm surprised someone would have that reaction to him crying about losing.
Really??

A grown man crying because he can't always be the winner. Seems like the definition of childish stupidity.

NYSpirit1
08-07-2012, 07:41 PM
This.

Often Carmelo hasn't played all that well in the playoffs either. Garnett put up 24 PTS / 19 REB / 5 AST through a playoff series and his team got swept in the first round. Not to mention he's 10x more of a leader than Carmelo and his defense is just simply on another planet in comparison. If Carmelo played like Garnett was playing the criticism wouldn't be there. It also isn't like T-Mac on Orlando where he had crap teammates. Carmelo had some good supporting casts, and went out with a sweep or 5 game ousting most of the time.

So I guess you've forgotten Melo's 42 and 19 performance in Game 2 against the Celtics last year? Where he made shot after shot, taking the Knicks back from nearly 20 to lose on the last possession because of Jared Jeffries?

bucketss
08-07-2012, 07:58 PM
So I guess you've forgotten Melo's 42 and 19 performance in Game 2 against the Celtics last year? Where he made shot after shot, taking the Knicks back from nearly 20 to lose on the last possession because of Jared Jeffries?

they lost because melo got lazy at the end and didn't even foul the celtics to extend the game.

Evolution23
08-07-2012, 08:05 PM
Don't ever compare Melo and KG. Please. Literally polar opposites.

KG plays amazing defense, Melo doesn't. That's the difference.

BigCityofDreams
08-07-2012, 08:15 PM
Really??

A grown man crying because he can't always be the winner. Seems like the definition of childish stupidity.

Smh he's not crying because he can't always be a winner. This isn't some guy hopping from team to team looking to win a ring and when the team doesn't he throws a fit. He was crying because he gave his all yr after yr and losing didn't sit well with him. It didn't sit well to see the team go for pushing the Lakers to the limit to falling to the bottom. He was all in when he wasn't Minnesota. He cared about the franchise and put in the work. Do you think he cried after he lost to the Lakers? I doubt it. That wasn't him being a child. If he was a child KG would have pulled the same stunts Howard did. Hell there have been guys in the NBA who have faked/ milked injuries. That's being childish.

ThuglifeJ
08-07-2012, 09:31 PM
Im a KG fan and not a Melo fan at all, but I do agree with what your saying a bit and have always felt that way.

I always thought if Vince or Tmac or even AI was paired up with Shaq instead of Kobe they woulda done just as much damage and been able to continue there careers better without being burned out on bad team and not being able to stick around in same city.

but that is also me being a butthurt VC fan. Idk ive always hated how Pierce/Ray are seen as such "winners" "HOFers" w.e and get all this media attention when guys like Tmac/VC/AI were way better overall plyers and could have had sucha big impact on league history with more help..

just my opinion



btw Chronz what is your sig's meaning?

bagwell368
08-07-2012, 09:36 PM
Garnett is one of the greatest players ever, probably top 50 and one of the top 5 of his generation.

Top 75? That's Brand or Divac level. Garnett is easily a top 12 all time, if not 8-9.

I've had that "loser" on my all time NBA team for some years.

justinnum1
08-07-2012, 09:40 PM
Top 75? That's Brand or Divac level. Garnett is easily a top 12 all time, if not 8-9.

I've had that "loser" on my all time NBA team for some years.

lol. No.

How young are you?

ThuglifeJ
08-07-2012, 10:03 PM
well hes not automatic top 12, but you could argue it.

I mean you could put KG in any generation, now days or 90s, 80s, whenever. Hed dominate in his prime even now days (even tho not a huge time difference).

Young KG was unstopable and one of the best defenders if not the best interior

Jarvo
08-07-2012, 10:08 PM
Too much to read lol

Jarvo
08-07-2012, 10:09 PM
But Melo will always have that selfish tag on him no matter what.

StarvingKnick22
08-07-2012, 10:20 PM
i tell you, the door opens wider and wider. like Obama said : "we need to soul search for the answer", will melo be MVP like KG only time will telll

THE MTL
08-07-2012, 10:45 PM
Melo must be the most hated man in the PSD. I think now that Lebron won his title, its now time for Melo to be the most criticized in the NBA. SMH.

NYSpirit1
08-07-2012, 10:50 PM
Top 75? That's Brand or Divac level. Garnett is easily a top 12 all time, if not 8-9.

I've had that "loser" on my all time NBA team for some years.

Top 75? Elton Brand or Divac? Are you kidding, they'd be lucky to be in the top 200 ever. There is almost 70 years of history in the NBA, there have been a ton of amazing players.

And secondly, to say Garnett is top 8-9 ever, your credibility has to be questioned. That's just a ridiculous statement, he's probably somewhere between 25-40.

Jordan
Russell
Chamberlain
Bird
Magic
West
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Erving
Baylor
Kareem
Havliceck
Olajuwon
Oscar Rob
Worthy

Unquestionably, undeniably, had better careers than Garnett. And that's ringing 15-20 off the top of my head, there's at least 10-20 more.

And most would agree that Barkley and Malone were better as well, but you may debate that.

tredigs
08-07-2012, 11:11 PM
Top 75? Elton Brand or Divac? Are you kidding, they'd be lucky to be in the top 200 ever. There is almost 70 years of history in the NBA, there have been a ton of amazing players.

And secondly, to say Garnett is top 8-9 ever, your credibility has to be questioned. That's just a ridiculous statement, he's probably somewhere between 25-40.

Jordan
Russell
Chamberlain
Bird
Magic
West
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Erving
Baylor
Kareem
Havliceck
Olajuwon
Oscar Rob
Worthy

Unquestionably, undeniably, had better careers than Garnett. And that's ringing 15-20 off the top of my head, there's at least 10-20 more.

And most would agree that Barkley and Malone were better as well, but you may debate that.

I'd agree with the bolded, Oscar Rob, Erving, Baylor is where interesting debate starts to come in (I do have him behind this crew, but it's a debate) and at James Worthy you've simply gone absolutely delusional. 15-20 more? Good luck. Once you reach 25 players deep there is zero argument for any of them over Garnett.

Laughing at 'Justinnum' with the "how young are you" comment to Bagwell btw.

b@llhog24
08-07-2012, 11:15 PM
lol. No.

How young are you?

:facepalm:

QueensG_718
08-07-2012, 11:22 PM
KG is the greatest PF of all-time...and top 15 player of all-time. Melo is not even top 15 SF of all-time. Melo shouldn't be mention in the same breathe as KG.

two words : Tim Duncan

justinnum1
08-07-2012, 11:23 PM
two words : Tim Duncan

Seriously.

NYSpirit1
08-07-2012, 11:30 PM
I'd agree with the bolded, Oscar Rob, Erving, Baylor is where interesting debate starts to come in (I do have him behind this crew, but it's a debate) and at James Worthy you've simply gone absolutely delusional. 15-20 more? Good luck. Once you reach 25 players deep there is zero argument for any of them over Garnett.

Laughing at 'Justinnum' with the "how young are you" comment to Bagwell btw.

Are you kidding? Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double in a season. He was an absolute legend and an obvious top 10 talent. There is no debate there. There is also no debate for Erving or Baylor. Most people on this forum didn't see them play so how are you going to say that Garnett is better? Because he's most recent?

Garnett is a great player, a one time MVP, a one time DPOY, a one time NBA Champion and an obvious Hall of Famer. But he doesn't measure up to any of those three guys.

Ditto to Havlicek. He's a 8 time NBA champion and 13 time All-Star. The ignorance on this forum is unbelievable. Because people saw Kobe, LeBron, Garnett play and didn't see Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar play, suddenly makes Kobe, LeBron and Garnett better. If you were to dissect every player in each NBA season, there are tons and tons of legends that have been forgotten about. Someone like Bob Pettit, who would be the top center in today's NBA.

Yes, there was life before 2000.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-07-2012, 11:47 PM
lol. No.

How young are you?

lol Bags would take that question as a compliment seeing that he's older than a lot of people on here.(Not bashing you bags)

justinnum1
08-07-2012, 11:54 PM
lol

ThuglifeJ
08-08-2012, 12:45 AM
Melo was better and had more swag when he was fat...idk how or why but its true u know it

JasonJohnHorn
08-08-2012, 01:01 AM
Melo had some great talent to work with. Iverson. Billups. Nene. Camby. You give players like that to Garnett, and he would have been in the conference finals more than once. The most he ever had before he made it to the conference finals was Wally Serbiak? I mean seriously? And the most Pierce had was Antoine Walker. And Allen had who? Vin Baker? I mean, these guys did not that the kind of supporting cast that Shaq and Kobe and Duncan had. Let's be honest. Their inability to win consistently was more a reflection of the GMs they worked with than with their own ability. Look at all the deep playoff runs they had once they got together. When given the tools, these guys can win.

Longhornfan1234
08-08-2012, 01:44 AM
two words : Tim Duncan

Duncan is a CENTER. I guess simpletons can't understand that; smh.

Patman
08-08-2012, 04:47 AM
Duncan is a CENTER. I guess simpletons can't understand that; smh.

Then those Power Forwards have a real problem, because he played that position better then them.
Duncan was a PF until 03. After Robinsons Retirement, he still played a lot of PF but also filled in more and more as the Center, over the next two years, he payed more and more center, because pop fell in love with the stretch four. I would say the move to nearly full time center was finished in 07 or 08. You shouldn't forget that the only real stretch for at the time was Horry and he never broke the 20min barrier. They also had guys like Rasho and Nazr playing 17-20+ minutes a game, and those were centers. On the defensive side I will not argue, he probably played Center for the defense even before D Rob retired.

About the whole KG thing, yeah if KG would still be ringless there would probably be people questioning his winner mentality, his abillity to get it done. He won a ring as one of the key players, so that argument isn't there anymore. The other thing is if you watched Garnett over his career, there was never a question about his intensity on the court the guy always gave it his all.

bagwell368
08-08-2012, 02:59 PM
i know people sees KG as a dirty player but i see a guy who really wants to win bad in any way that he could from taunting to his antics, and that why i really like him as a player.


Malone wasn't viewed as the best player in any year at his era because a certain player wearing jersey #23 and played for the Bulls all those years.
he might have been also a champion or a multiple champion player but that same certain player stood in his way.

but props to him, he did won an MVP in 1997.

KG is dirty? Compared to whom? Karl ****ing two thousand dirty elbows thrown Malone? Give me a break.

bagwell368
08-08-2012, 03:03 PM
lol. No.

How young are you?

I'm 55, and I've seen everybody from Russell on down. I also played and coached. KG is easily top 12 by almost any measure.

bagwell368
08-08-2012, 03:04 PM
Duncan is a CENTER. I guess simpletons can't understand that; smh.

Duncan is both a Center and a PF - thus enhancing his value even more.

I guess children can't understand that...

bagwell368
08-08-2012, 03:06 PM
i tell you, the door opens wider and wider. like Obama said : "we need to soul search for the answer", will melo be MVP like KG only time will telll

Melo will never be an MVP - never.

justinnum1
08-08-2012, 03:09 PM
I'm 55, and I've seen everybody from Russell on down. I also played and coached. KG is easily top 12 by almost any measure.

That's your opinion, and i respect that since you are more than qualified to give one considering your age. But i would put him somewhere between 20-30.



Melo will never be an MVP - never.

+1

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 03:10 PM
Duncan is both a Center and a PF - thus enhancing his value even more.

I guess children can't understand that...

You know what is funny? Most guys who end up playing both frontcourt positions end up not being able to dominate just one when asked to. Look at Pau. He no longer dominates the PF position, and I think it has much to do with shifting back and forth to center his career. That never seemed to bother Duncan.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 03:11 PM
I'm 55, and I've seen everybody from Russell on down. I also played and coached. KG is easily top 12 by almost any measure.

I have him #12-14. But anyone who has him outside the top 20 has zip idea what they speak of.

bagwell368
08-08-2012, 03:21 PM
Top 75? Elton Brand or Divac? Are you kidding, they'd be lucky to be in the top 200 ever. There is almost 70 years of history in the NBA, there have been a ton of amazing players.

And secondly, to say Garnett is top 8-9 ever, your credibility has to be questioned. That's just a ridiculous statement, he's probably somewhere between 25-40.

Jordan
Russell
Chamberlain
Bird
Magic
West
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Erving
Baylor
Kareem
Havliceck
Olajuwon
Oscar Rob
Worthy

Unquestionably, undeniably, had better careers than Garnett. And that's ringing 15-20 off the top of my head, there's at least 10-20 more.

And most would agree that Barkley and Malone were better as well, but you may debate that.

You are going to lecture me about HOF players? Cool....

On paper regular season career wise: Jabbar, Wilt, K. Malone, Jordan, Stockton, Gilmore, Robertson have him.

KG is in a virtual dead heat with Erving, Moses, Robinson, Barkley, Hakeem, and Duncan career wise.

KG smashes Havlicek and Worthy BTW and has again a career lead on Bird and Magic - although per game, both of them are better.

Your going of off reputation, or what someone told you. I saw these guys on your list - everyone of them play live or on TV in their time.

I have Duncan as the #1 PF over KG because he's got a better inside game, and can handle D against true Centers better then KG. KG, Malone, and CB fill in the next 3 slots. CB's defense was too weak for my tastes. Malone couldn't really play D at the high post or low post as well as KG - and KG is a better passer than all of them - including TD.

bagwell368
08-08-2012, 03:31 PM
Are you kidding? Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double in a season. He was an absolute legend and an obvious top 10 talent. There is no debate there. There is also no debate for Erving or Baylor. Most people on this forum didn't see them play so how are you going to say that Garnett is better? Because he's most recent?

Garnett is a great player, a one time MVP, a one time DPOY, a one time NBA Champion and an obvious Hall of Famer. But he doesn't measure up to any of those three guys.

Ditto to Havlicek. He's a 8 time NBA champion and 13 time All-Star. The ignorance on this forum is unbelievable. Because people saw Kobe, LeBron, Garnett play and didn't see Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar play, suddenly makes Kobe, LeBron and Garnett better. If you were to dissect every player in each NBA season, there are tons and tons of legends that have been forgotten about. Someone like Bob Pettit, who would be the top center in today's NBA.

Yes, there was life before 2000.

I'm a Celts fan back to '66. Havlicek was a great defender, fine passer, great FT shooter, best 6th man of all time - but he was a volume shooter all the way - even in his time his FG% wasn't that good - and he shot a lot. He's out of the top 25.

Baylor was a freak in his time, the first above the rim player.

Erving I saw the first time in the Cage when he was a sophomore. Great ABA player, not as great in the NBA.

If you actually threw those guys out on the same floor in their prime KG would mash all of them. Given the patina of history to hide behind - Robertson is ahead of KG clearly. If you work at making those ABA stats fair, KG kills Erving. Forget Havlick. Baylor peak sure, but his career was short - 12 full years - sorry career wise KG has him.

You do know that in the past 25 years has seen all the great PF's in the league right? Name me an old time guy that was great on paper - let's use my favorite guy to use when picking on old timers - Jerry Lucas. Twice averaged over 20 RPG in a league with Wilt and Russell and other "great" Centers. Jerry Lucas couldn't even make a D1 team today with his game back them. So there is nothing wrong picking heavily from modern guys for #4's. Centers is another story - see the 80's.

bagwell368
08-08-2012, 03:36 PM
You know what is funny? Most guys who end up playing both frontcourt positions end up not being able to dominate just one when asked to. Look at Pau. He no longer dominates the PF position, and I think it has much to do with shifting back and forth to center his career. That never seemed to bother Duncan.

I guess I'm one of the few here that love KG and Duncan. It's like Mantle and Mays. Duncan is just a rock. KG is obviously more excitable and can be major lightening rod for trouble (on purpose) to stoke himself and distract the enemy. I love that. Laimbeer, Cowens, Ruland, etc. are guys that will play rough to get an advantage. Don't like it? Go cower outside.

Anyhow, Duncan is freaking great, and plenty deserving to start for my team:

Hakeem
Duncan
Bird
Jordan
Magic

KG is more then good enough to be an anchor on the "B" team.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 03:42 PM
I guess I'm one of the few here that love KG and Duncan. It's like Mantle and Mays. Duncan is just a rock. KG is obviously more excitable and can be major lightening rod for trouble (on purpose) to stoke himself and distract the enemy. I love that. Laimbeer, Cowens, Ruland, etc. are guys that will play rough to get an advantage. Don't like it? Go cower outside.

Anyhow, Duncan is freaking great, and plenty deserving to start for my team:

Hakeem
Duncan
Bird
Jordan
Magic

KG is more then good enough to be an anchor on the "B" team.

KG's passion and loyalty have also screwed him at times. The Wolves front office stupidly let him sway them into extensions for his boys, who all sucked. He froze Wally, and refused to ever take a paycut from being the guy who caused the lockout, to get help around him.

As a Wolves fan, I really have trouble with my feelings towards him. I love him and hate him. But I won't take away what he is, and that is an all time great. I do think he is better suited as 2nd banana, he never had the killer gene to take over closing moments, instead making the correct "basketball play", which often meant a brick from an average player from 18.

bagwell368
08-08-2012, 04:28 PM
KG's passion and loyalty have also screwed him at times. The Wolves front office stupidly let him sway them into extensions for his boys, who all sucked. He froze Wally, and refused to ever take a paycut from being the guy who caused the lockout, to get help around him.

As a Wolves fan, I really have trouble with my feelings towards him. I love him and hate him. But I won't take away what he is, and that is an all time great. I do think he is better suited as 2nd banana, he never had the killer gene to take over closing moments, instead making the correct "basketball play", which often meant a brick from an average player from 18.

I've only heard bits and pieces about his issues/failings in Minny - so I'll take your word for it.

I can see what you say about being a 2nd banana. But I thought I'd never see anything greater in BB than the turnaround the Bird ushered in when he was a rookie - well stand aside Larry, KG and his D Coach transformed the team and every player on it, into a fierce defensive weapon - even guys like PP, RA, KP that had never paid much attention to D before.

As far a minting a team of HOF'ers with him on it. Guys that score are not hard to find, guys that can balance shooting and passing, and play huge D (and really want to do it, not have to do it), are very rare at the top reaches, that's his calling card.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 04:40 PM
I've only heard bits and pieces about his issues/failings in Minny - so I'll take your word for it.

I can see what you say about being a 2nd banana. But I thought I'd never see anything greater in BB than the turnaround the Bird ushered in when he was a rookie - well stand aside Larry, KG and his D Coach transformed the team and every player on it, into a fierce defensive weapon - even guys like PP, RA, KP that had never paid much attention to D before.

As far a minting a team of HOF'ers with him on it. Guys that score are not hard to find, guys that can balance shooting and passing, and play huge D (and really want to do it, not have to do it), are very rare at the top reaches, that's his calling card.

If you gave KG the killer instinct that Bird had, you would have the greatest player of all time. All you need with KG is clutch scorers, and guys who can generate their own offense. Thru his peak in Minny, only once did we give him that. Otherwise, it was a roster of midrange shooters who were meh defenders. KG is not the type to lead that roster to a ring.

Bird was 22 when he brought that turnaround, KG much older, and seasoned. Bird's is more impressive to me, and he didn't have 2 perennial all stars on the tail ends of their careers salivating for a ring like KG got.

Sactown
08-08-2012, 05:30 PM
Also unfortunately for KG, he really hit his prime at a poor time.. He had Shaq, and Kobe. Much like Malone had Jordan

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 05:40 PM
Also unfortunately for KG, he really hit his prime at a poor time.. He had Shaq, and Kobe. Much like Malone had Jordan

If KG had Stockton, I don't think that would have mattered...

Sactown
08-08-2012, 05:43 PM
If KG had Stockton, I don't think that would have mattered...

The Lakers weren't the Bulls either tho

Hawkeye15
08-08-2012, 05:49 PM
The Lakers weren't the Bulls either tho

I know, I know. I only meant, I truly wonder what KG could have done if he had another HOF'er alongside him, also in his peak. Maybe my team would have a chip :sad2:

Sactown
08-08-2012, 05:58 PM
I know, I know. I only meant, I truly wonder what KG could have done if he had another HOF'er alongside him, also in his peak. Maybe my team would have a chip :sad2:

Yeah, it's really unfortunate to see players unfairly judged when their counterparts are drafted next to HOF caliber players. Just shows how rings carry to much weight when we rank players. especially when we start calling players "perennial losers" just because they weren't blessed by being drafted to the Lakers, or any other championship caliber team.

But back on topic, I would love to see certain players matched with a great counterpart, IE. KG with Stockton or Magic. Lebron with prime Shaq. CP3 with Shawn Kemp would be pretty cool.

Sactown
08-08-2012, 06:10 PM
Makes me wonder what would of been of Webber if he would of won that ring and stayed healthy, not many 6'11 legit 20/10 players who nearly had a 2/1 assist turnover ratio.

bagwell368
08-08-2012, 08:38 PM
Bird was 22 when he brought that turnaround, KG much older, and seasoned. Bird's is more impressive to me, and he didn't have 2 perennial all stars on the tail ends of their careers salivating for a ring like KG got.

Good points, but:

Bird had good support:

Cedric Maxwell in his prime
Archibald still operational
Cowens still at it
M.L. Carr before he he just waved towels
Ford and Robey also having some of their best years

What people have to realize is that it was a very weak NBA in 1979-1980 compared to 2007-2008. The Celts after crushing a two man Rockets team in the first round (Moses and Murphy) got pole axed in the ECF 4 games to 1. This 76'ers team was well short in talent compared to the 76'ers team that won it a few years later, but pretty evenly matched to the Celts this year. The last two games of the Series the 76'ers won by 11 and 12 points. The 76'ers then went off and lost to the Lakers 4 games to 2. Meanwhile the Celts beat the Lakers in 6 with one of the most titanic blow outs in Finals history included in 2008.

JordansBulls
08-09-2012, 02:10 PM
I think what screwed Minny was Garnett's salary. He generally was the highest paid player in the league.