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View Full Version : What is everybody's fascination with Indiana?



NYSpirit1
08-04-2012, 12:38 PM
I mean seriously, what have they done?

So because in an injury shortened season, they were able to surpass a lot of teams because they had immense depth, because they beat a lotto team without Howard in the Magic and won two games against Miami without Bosh.

This is my pick of the year to have a major drop to 7th or 8th seed again, where they were in 2011 at 39-43. It's essentially a bunch of role players. Granger has been on decline for years now and Hibbert is overrated.

They had identical teams the past two years and the lockout helped them above most teams last year. Their team is decent but to say they are on Miami/Boston/Brooklyn/NY/Chicago (with Rose) level is ridiculous.

JerseyPalahniuk
08-04-2012, 12:42 PM
They are definitely better than Brooklyn and NY. If these two teams can develop chemistry and handle their weaknesses (see the Anti-Homer thread) than maybe they can surpass Indiana.

lakers4sho
08-04-2012, 12:42 PM
I would take them over the Knicks in a 7 game series, that's for sure.

IndyRealist
08-04-2012, 12:44 PM
Yup. Had nothing to do with a completely new coaching staff, trading for George Hill, signing David West or their young players getting better. 2 of 5 new starters, that's the exact same team as the year before.

MintBerryCrunch
08-04-2012, 12:56 PM
Indiana > NYK and BK

ROY 2 MVP Braun
08-04-2012, 12:57 PM
only the heat and the celts will be better this year both NY teams will be below them in standings! they dont have a star player but they have all good solid players and a team that is built right with chemistry

LongIslandIcedZ
08-04-2012, 12:58 PM
I think their a tad overrated because of the two games they won over Miami. Their still a very good team though. I have them battling the Knicks and Boston for the second seed, I think they definitely have a shot to be the 2 seed but I don't think its a foregone conclusion that their better than NY.

ROY 2 MVP Braun
08-04-2012, 12:59 PM
chi with rose will have to compete with them now for the central with the bulls bad off-season

sep11ie
08-04-2012, 01:01 PM
Point thread of the what was this.

IndyRealist
08-04-2012, 01:04 PM
I think their a tad overrated because of the two games they won over Miami. Their still a very good team though. I have them battling the Knicks and Boston for the second seed, I think they definitely have a shot to be the 2 seed but I don't think its a foregone conclusion that their better than NY.

This.

koetravis
08-04-2012, 01:06 PM
Well they're better than New York. And could probably fight the Celtics for the 2nd seed this year.

javaid64
08-04-2012, 01:09 PM
Well they're better than New York. And could probably fight the Celtics for the 2nd seed this year.

how are they better than ny....we smacked them twice when we were healthy ...and they came back from 17 down against a depleted knicks team....head to head we are better than them

netsgiantsyanks
08-04-2012, 01:10 PM
their chemistry alone pushes them ahead of some teams, including NY and (yes) Brooklyn.

javaid64
08-04-2012, 01:16 PM
their depth was only an great luxury during a shortened compacted season....a luxury thats not going to give them as much advantage as it did last season.....

they were one of the few teams that had very little injuries too..

they took advantage of an ideal situation (injuries too other team/lack of thier own injuries/shortend season) but its blinding most of you thinking they are some sort of elite team

bucketss
08-04-2012, 01:21 PM
saying they are on the knicks level is ridiculous to you? when the did the knicks become so elite :S

nycericanguy
08-04-2012, 01:22 PM
They were incredibly fortunate last year to have basically all their starters play all the games, probably the only team in the NBA that wasn't hit with any significant injuries, and the fact that they were familiar with each other definitely helped.

That being said, they are still a very good team.

Although to everyone saying they are better than NY, I will say NY handled them pretty well last year and at least on the nights they played, NY was clearly the better team on the court.

justinnum1
08-04-2012, 01:24 PM
Easily a top 3 team in the east with miami and boston

javaid64
08-04-2012, 01:25 PM
saying they are on the knicks level is ridiculous to you? when the did the knicks become so elite :S

knicks being better than indiana doesn't make the knicks elite, unless ur insinuating that indiana is an elite team, which is laughable

when u lack a all star quality player u aren't an elite team, they are a product of ideal circumstance

javaid64
08-04-2012, 01:27 PM
They were incredibly fortunate last year to have basically all their starters play all the games, probably the only team in the NBA that wasn't hit with any significant injuries, and the fact that they were familiar with each other definitely helped.

That being said, they are still a very good team.

Although to everyone saying they are better than NY, I will say NY handled them pretty well last year and at least on the nights they played, NY was clearly the better team on the court.

this...
i really don't understand how people can't look at the context behind why they were so successful last year...

knicksfan42
08-04-2012, 01:36 PM
Man NYSpirit1's threads usually suck (which is why he isn't allowed to post threads in the Knicks forum anymore without asking our mods first) but Indiana is definitely overrated.

DeyAce
08-04-2012, 01:41 PM
their chemistry alone pushes them ahead of some teams, including NY and (yes) Brooklyn.

This and unlike NY they play good defense

knicksfan42
08-04-2012, 01:42 PM
They were incredibly fortunate last year to have basically all their starters play all the games, probably the only team in the NBA that wasn't hit with any significant injuries, and the fact that they were familiar with each other definitely helped.

That being said, they are still a very good team.

Although to everyone saying they are better than NY, I will say NY handled them pretty well last year and at least on the nights they played, NY was clearly the better team on the court.


Pretty much this. Indiana is a good team, but I am not overly concerned with them, because of their previous play against us. Also, like you mentioned, they were one of the few teams in the league last year to not have any major injuries which was a huge advantage for them.

justinnum1
08-04-2012, 01:43 PM
Man NYSpirit1's threads usually suck (which is why he isn't allowed to post threads in the Knicks forum anymore without asking our mods first) but Indiana is definitely overrated.

really? lol

DeyAce
08-04-2012, 01:46 PM
lol needs permission to post in the knicks forum

knicksfan42
08-04-2012, 01:50 PM
Collison played 60 games

Granger played 62 games

Hibbert played 65 games

George and West both played 66 games


This is incredible during a lockout. Having each of your starters play 60+ games (3 of which played 65+) is unbelievable during a lockout season.


I think the Thunder were the only other team that healthy this past season.

rocket
08-04-2012, 01:56 PM
Because they know how to play together and win.

IND > NY BRK

rocket
08-04-2012, 01:56 PM
Collison played 60 games

Granger played 62 games

Hibbert played 65 games

George and West both played 66 games


This is incredible during a lockout. Having each of your starters play 60+ games (3 of which played 65+) is unbelievable during a lockout season.


I think the Thunder were the only other team that healthy this past season.

:cry:

knicksfan42
08-04-2012, 02:00 PM
Oh the Pacers bench was also super healthy last season.

justinnum1
08-04-2012, 02:01 PM
Because they know how to play together and win.

IND > NY BRK

truth

Shkelqim
08-04-2012, 02:09 PM
Brooklyn being considered an elite team:facepalm:

KingPosey
08-04-2012, 02:13 PM
They are young, and built their team up in an efficient, smart manner. Its fun to see if they can develop into a team that can beat the titans.

Good for Indiana and their fans for returning to relevance.

dnewguy
08-04-2012, 02:13 PM
The Knicks are a dynasty in the mind of their fans...I mean, who else won one total play-off game in the last 8 years?

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 02:17 PM
Their depth, defense, and chemistry, along with great coaching, make them expected to be the #3 seed this season to me. I still don't get trading Collison, but Augustine isn't a big dropoff playmaking wise, but they did make their bench stronger in Mahinimi, and Green, and I don't see anything but injuries stopping them from hosting a series in round 1.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 02:18 PM
Why was this thread created anyways? So Knicks and Nets fans can start yet another argument with people on how great their team is? Weren't we having the exact same conversation in another thread?

Why do you need everyone's validation on your teams? You have your own opinion, everyone else has theirs. Move on.

Cal827
08-04-2012, 02:23 PM
I mean seriously, what have they done?

So because in an injury shortened season, they were able to surpass a lot of teams because they had immense depth, because they beat a lotto team without Howard in the Magic and won two games against Miami without Bosh.

This is my pick of the year to have a major drop to 7th or 8th seed again, where they were in 2011 at 39-43. It's essentially a bunch of role players. Granger has been on decline for years now and Hibbert is overrated.

They had identical teams the past two years and the lockout helped them above most teams last year. Their team is decent but to say they are on Miami/Boston/Brooklyn/NY/Chicago (with Rose) level is ridiculous.

To say that New York is on the Level of Miami/Boston/Chicago(with Rose) is ridiculous :D

Cal827
08-04-2012, 02:23 PM
The Knicks are a dynasty in the mind of their fans...I mean, who else won one total play-off game in the last 8 years?

:laugh:

Toastyy
08-04-2012, 02:28 PM
what have the knicks done that is better then the pacers? pacers have the best chance of getting the 2 seed then the knicks there an all around better team

KingPosey
08-04-2012, 02:33 PM
oops.

Da Knicks
08-04-2012, 02:34 PM
I would take them over the Knicks in a 7 game series, that's for sure.

Then you didn't watch the regular season games when the Knicks made them look like a Jv team. This thread is for you...

TheNumber37
08-04-2012, 02:35 PM
New York is going to play way better than people think. And I'd place a bet that they'll be the best defensive team past the all star break. Aka the Shumpert effect.

Indiana is a good team, they've got a lot of great pieces that fill well together and they have an identity, knowing themselves a litter better as a group than say NY or NJ would...
They Still don't have that 6th man or true X Factor. Eric Cordon coulda been the guy as could James Harden.

Losoway
08-04-2012, 02:35 PM
roy hillbert is soft

and lebron left his condoms all thru out indiana when he finished them in the playoffs

Da Knicks
08-04-2012, 02:37 PM
The Knicks are a dynasty in the mind of their fans...I mean, who else won one total play-off game in the last 8 years?

You should not be on here after your bet that you lost. Anything you say should have an* just like your teams chip...

Da Knicks
08-04-2012, 02:40 PM
truth

False

knicksfan42
08-04-2012, 03:23 PM
Their depth, defense, and chemistry, along with great coaching, make them expected to be the #3 seed this season to me. I still don't get trading Collison, but Augustine isn't a big dropoff playmaking wise, but they did make their bench stronger in Mahinimi, and Green, and I don't see anything but injuries stopping them from hosting a series in round 1.


Bench-wise they lost Barbosa, Jones, and Amundson; got Green and Mahinimi back. That isn't really making their bench stronger. Maybe its a bit better, but definitely not significantly so. Green played well last year, but that was one year, a year in which he was desperate to just get signed by someone. I think their bench is a bit worse actually, not much worse, but a bit worse.


Collison for Augustin is definitely a downgrade.


They've gotten worse this offseason.



Can they get 3rd seed? Yep. Are they a lock or close to a lock for it? No.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 03:35 PM
Bench-wise they lost Barbosa, Jones, and Amundson; got Green and Mahinimi back. That isn't really making their bench stronger. Maybe its a bit better, but definitely not significantly so. Green played well last year, but that was one year, a year in which he was desperate to just get signed by someone. I think their bench is a bit worse actually, not much worse, but a bit worse.


Collison for Augustin is definitely a downgrade.


They've gotten worse this offseason.



Can they get 3rd seed? Yep. Are they a lock or close to a lock for it? No.

I don't think they have gotten better or worse. And with Chicago the obvious slipper, I see no reason not to pencil in Indiana at #3 seed.

N3TS
08-04-2012, 03:37 PM
The Pacers are a deep team and don't have an elite player. They have great chemistry and have a young team. They are only going to get better.

dnewguy
08-04-2012, 03:40 PM
You should not be on here after your bet that you lost. Anything you say should have an* just like your teams chip...

Whatever you say man...here's a secret we all kept from you Knicks fans, we all wish our team can play the Knicks in the play-offs.

bucketss
08-04-2012, 03:43 PM
knicks being better than indiana doesn't make the knicks elite, unless ur insinuating that indiana is an elite team, which is laughable

when u lack a all star quality player u aren't an elite team, they are a product of ideal circumstance

no. saying that indiana is on new yorks level is "ridiculous" i would assume new york has to be an elite team.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 03:44 PM
You do realize the Pacers were 7th in offensive rating and 9th in defensive rating last year, right? Why do NY and Brooklyn fans feel the need to try and convince us they have made the necessary improvements to pass a team as good as Indiana's young core that has already proven themselves?

I don't get the need for validation amongst some of you.

dnewguy
08-04-2012, 03:45 PM
I dont get how fans of a team that was 8 Linsanity games away from missing the play-offs already believe they are contenders because they now have 2 star players from the era of prohibition. J Kidd and Camby once had dinner with Abraham Lincoln.

bucketss
08-04-2012, 03:48 PM
You should not be on here after your bet that you lost. Anything you say should have an* just like your teams chip...

lol so i would assume the knicks won 1* playoff game in the last ten year?:D

dnewguy
08-04-2012, 03:49 PM
lol so i would assume the knicks won 1* playoff game in the last ten year?:d

lmao

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 03:49 PM
Team-Offensvie rank-Defensive rank

Pacers- 7- 9
Knicks- 17- 6
Nets- 23- 38

The Knicks really aren't much better, if any then last year. The Nets are not going to be a top 16 defensive team this season, and their offense is probably hovering around 9-12.

The Pacers are still winning more games then either barring health.

PacersForLife
08-04-2012, 03:50 PM
Anybody else notice that the only people hating on the Pacers are Knicks fans? I find it kinda funny... Keep talking about regular season games because we all know how you guys did in the playoffs. Wait until the season starts before you start considering your team elite or better than a team that was 5 seeds ahead of you last year.

NYKnicksAllDay
08-04-2012, 03:54 PM
No. OP you're wrong. They will be a top 4/5 seed at the very least. Most likely top 3 though.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 03:54 PM
Anybody else notice that the only people hating on the Pacers are Knicks fans? I find it kinda funny... Keep talking about regular season games because we all know how you guys did in the playoffs. Wait until the season starts before you start considering your team elite or better than a team that was 5 seeds ahead of you last year.

Nets fans now as well dude. Those two teams have a pretty large amount of fans that truly believe they stack up with Miami or Boston, and see Indiana as a pesky little overrated team standing in their way.

PacersForLife
08-04-2012, 03:55 PM
Collison played 60 games

Granger played 62 games

Hibbert played 65 games

George and West both played 66 games


This is incredible during a lockout. Having each of your starters play 60+ games (3 of which played 65+) is unbelievable during a lockout season.


I think the Thunder were the only other team that healthy this past season.

So basically the only thing you are proving is that two young teams stayed healthy in a shortened season. One of them made it to the finals and the other challenged the other team that made it to the finals.

PacersForLife
08-04-2012, 03:56 PM
Nets fans now as well dude. Those two teams have a pretty large amount of fans that truly believe they stack up with Miami or Boston, and see Indiana as a pesky little overrated team standing in their way.

I know right. It's really quite annoying.

It's the same story every year with Knicks fans. Their team throws money at all kinds of free agents and they never have enough chemistry.

NYKnicksAllDay
08-04-2012, 04:00 PM
You should not be on here after your bet that you lost. Anything you say should have an* just like your teams chip...

So I guess if the Knicks had won the championship this past season it would get an asterisk, too? It's not like the 66 game schedule gave the Heat an advantage. Everyone had to deal with injuries and a compressed schedule. No asterisk is necessary. What will your excuse be when the Heat win it all again next year?

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 04:05 PM
So I guess if the Knicks had won the championship this past season it would get an asterisk, too? It's not like the 66 game schedule gave the Heat an advantage. Everyone had to deal with injuries and a compressed schedule. No asterisk is necessary. What will your excuse be when the Heat win it all again next year?

the only people who give it an asterisk are LeBron haters. I have seen it from the well known ones here many times now.

jimm120
08-04-2012, 04:13 PM
I believe the Knicks are better than them in a head to head matchup but at the same time, I give Indiana a 60% chance to get a higher seed than the Knicks.

Indiana might not be "wow", but they have improved. They have. They're a solid team.

knicksfan42
08-04-2012, 04:15 PM
I don't think they have gotten better or worse. And with Chicago the obvious slipper, I see no reason not to pencil in Indiana at #3 seed.

I'm not going to argue with the notion that they are pretty much the same as they were last year, though I think they are a bit worse. I just look at their roster and don't see the them as being anywhere near a lock for 3rd seed. I guess it depends on Hibbert and George's development for me.

Lakeshow24KB
08-04-2012, 04:20 PM
This guy hasn't made one good thread. Ever.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 04:34 PM
I'm not going to argue with the notion that they are pretty much the same as they were last year, though I think they are a bit worse. I just look at their roster and don't see the them as being anywhere near a lock for 3rd seed. I guess it depends on Hibbert and George's development for me.

They will still be top 10 in offense and defense, just like last year. That spells lots of wins in the east. Furthermore, the teams beneath them didn't do enough to catch them. There is no star power in Indy, but they have good players, depth, and a very good coach.

LongIslandIcedZ
08-04-2012, 04:34 PM
I have Indiana in the same boat as NY and Boston, in the sense that any of those three teams can finish 2-4 and I wouldnt be very surprised. They have a very good TEAM. It's nice to see them do it by playing team ball, as opposed to the super team method. I dont think the fact that they had no injuries last year can go unnoticed. Thats an incredibly unlikely accomplishment.

Having said that, I cant pencil them in to one individual spot, so I'll say anywhere from 2-4.

Dade County
08-04-2012, 04:47 PM
Pacers will have a good regular season, but they will not make it to the ECF ( I think ).


I don't think that the Pacers are a really good team to challenge for a title, if they could get an elite star to join their team, then YES.

I don't believe that the Pacer will be able to beat a team like the Knicks in the playoffs.

Just because NBA = Entertainment tricked some fans, doesn't mean that the Pacers can actually contained for a title with out a true Star player.

JerseyPalahniuk
08-04-2012, 04:48 PM
You do realize the Pacers were 7th in offensive rating and 9th in defensive rating last year, right? Why do NY and Brooklyn fans feel the need to try and convince us they have made the necessary improvements to pass a team as good as Indiana's young core that has already proven themselves?

I don't get the need for validation amongst some of you.

Count the number of Nets fans in this thread that said we were better than Indiana. I tihnk you are overrating the Nets fan base as a whole overrating hahaha (except DoMeFavors)

shep33
08-04-2012, 04:58 PM
I might be in the minority but I think they got even better this offseason.

Yeah losing Collison was big, but adding Augustin, Gerald Green, Mahimi, and who knows maybe Plumlee can give them something (although I have no idea when he'd play), were all pretty decent moves.

Add in the growth of Paul George and other youngsters on that team, and they've got a nice foundation. You know what your going to get out of every player on that roster.

calibird707
08-04-2012, 05:03 PM
There is alot of blind hatred for the knicks on psd....that is all

Cal827
08-04-2012, 05:09 PM
I dont get how fans of a team that was 8 Linsanity games away from missing the play-offs already believe they are contenders because they now have 2 star players from the era of prohibition. J Kidd and Camby once had dinner with Abraham Lincoln.

:laugh: Dnewguy just won this thread.

knicksfan42
08-04-2012, 05:14 PM
The Knicks really aren't much better, if any then last year.


Seriously wrong here, especially if we're talking about the first third through first half of the season Knicks. We started the season with TD (worst player in the NBA, check the stats) starting, with Shumpert (missed 6 games after the first game), Bibby, Bill Walker, Harrellson, Jeffries off the bench. One of the worst benches in the NBA with the worst player in the NBA running the point.


We then acquired Lin, Novak, Smith, and Davis (returned from injury). TD was moved to the end of the bench, Bill Walker was eventually waived, Bibby and Harrellson played spot minutes. We went 18-6 our last third of the season. If we had these guys from the start and had (at least) TD rotting at the end of the bench our record would be much better than it was.



We lost Lin, Jeffries, and Fields this offseason and got Felton, Kidd, Prigioni, Brewer, Thomas, and Camby back. Brewer is better than Fields and I was Fields' number one fan. Thomas and Camby are better than Jeffries (I will miss him though, I used to hate him for his offensive ineptitude but his defense was excellent last season). Kidd is a great back up point, Prigioni is better than TD and is probably a decent 3rd stringer.


Now as for Lin-Felton. I, like many Knicks fans, was fuming over Lin not being re-signed, but now that I've had time to cool down and think, I'm not as upset as I used to be. I am still upset, because we lost him for nothing though. Lin has a lot of potential, but with my homer shades off he isn't as good as I once believed. His per game numbers were good post Linsanity, but his efficiency dropped drastically he went from a FG% of .472% to .407%. His 3 point shooting was a tad below average the entire time (320%). There are also the turnover concerns. He was a TO machine, but what really worried (I mentioned this when we had Lin) are his handles. They suck, he just doesn't control the ball well. I can't ever see him performing well against a team like Miami or Boston because of this. He's going to have trouble just bringing the ball up the court against them. His defense is below average. He does have great court vision, good instincts, and he drives well. I suspect he's not going to shoot anywhere near as well percentage wise as he shot during Linsanity, in fact I suspect he's going to be a fairly low percentage shooter. He isn't a good shooter, he has TO issues, and his defense is below average.


Now Felton is coming off his worst season as a pro, but many players had down seasons last year and the season before that was his best. Felton actually wants to play for the Knicks (didn't want to play for Portland) and he'll drop his weight in training camp (yep he uses training camp for weight loss) so I think he'll be pretty average this upcoming season. 12 and 6, bad shooting percentages and solid defense.

Bornknick73
08-04-2012, 05:22 PM
I am a fan of Granger I feel he is the most underated player in the NBA but....why do people keep saying they are better than us when we won the seasons series 2-1.

And we man handled them during a home and home in March. One 15 point win and one 14 point win. They beat us by 8 once last year. So we dominated them twice on back to back nights each by double digits yet they are said to be better than us? I dont get it.

They are well coached and have nice young talent but head to head we smacked them around while they eeked out a 8 point win.

Last year we went 2-2 against them and this year we went 2-1. How are they judged to be that much better?

RC3
08-04-2012, 05:22 PM
I believe the knicks are better than the pacers and I guarantee that the knicks will have a better record than indiana next season.

Donuts365
08-04-2012, 05:33 PM
the pacers will win a championship in the next three years

#Shumpert Up
08-04-2012, 05:47 PM
Brooklyn being considered an elite team:facepalm:

^this brooklyn literally added joe johnson and teltovic(however you spell his name) along with some minor bench warming players and now they go from a 20 win lotto team to an elite team? it's disgusting how much people are over-rating them and i just don't understand it. is it just because of jay-z and brooklyn? brook lopez has reinjured his foot so many times in the last 2 years. wallace is on the decline (although still valuable) and joe johnson is coming off the worst season of his career. you really think derron will stay content in this situation for long? just wait till the knicks whoop them opening night

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 05:59 PM
Count the number of Nets fans in this thread that said we were better than Indiana. I tihnk you are overrating the Nets fan base as a whole overrating hahaha (except DoMeFavors)

not getting any favors from that one. I am apologizing now for grouping many of them together. I will attempt to refrain from doing so going forward. Funny thing is I think the Nets will finish above NY, and many of their fans truly believe they are on par with Miami and Boston, hence this thread about a team that was top 10 in both offense and defense being questioned, despite not getting worse this offseason.

IndyRealist
08-04-2012, 06:00 PM
I believe the knicks are better than the pacers and I guarantee that the knicks will have a better record than indiana next season.

With Shumpert coming off injury, which Knick players will be better than they were last year? Will Kidd/Felton be better than Lin? Is there any chance that Amare, Melo, or Chandler will improve at this point in their careers?

Conversely, Indiana has young players in George Hill, Paul George, and Roy Hibbert who will likely improve from last year. David West has fully recovered from his knee injury which slowed him the first 3/4 of last year. Their bench that fell apart in the playoffs got replaced this summer.

I'm not saying that the Pacers are better than the Knicks, but there is NO way anyone can make guarantees one way or another.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 06:01 PM
Seriously wrong here, especially if we're talking about the first third through first half of the season Knicks. We started the season with TD (worst player in the NBA, check the stats) starting, with Shumpert (missed 6 games after the first game), Bibby, Bill Walker, Harrellson, Jeffries off the bench. One of the worst benches in the NBA with the worst player in the NBA running the point.


We then acquired Lin, Novak, Smith, and Davis (returned from injury). TD was moved to the end of the bench, Bill Walker was eventually waived, Bibby and Harrellson played spot minutes. We went 18-6 our last third of the season. If we had these guys from the start and had (at least) TD rotting at the end of the bench our record would be much better than it was.



We lost Lin, Jeffries, and Fields this offseason and got Felton, Kidd, Prigioni, Brewer, Thomas, and Camby back. Brewer is better than Fields and I was Fields' number one fan. Thomas and Camby are better than Jeffries (I will miss him though, I used to hate him for his offensive ineptitude but his defense was excellent last season). Kidd is a great back up point, Prigioni is better than TD and is probably a decent 3rd stringer.


Now as for Lin-Felton. I, like many Knicks fans, was fuming over Lin not being re-signed, but now that I've had time to cool down and think, I'm not as upset as I used to be. I am still upset, because we lost him for nothing though. Lin has a lot of potential, but with my homer shades off he isn't as good as I once believed. His per game numbers were good post Linsanity, but his efficiency dropped drastically he went from a FG% of .472% to .407%. His 3 point shooting was a tad below average the entire time (320%). There are also the turnover concerns. He was a TO machine, but what really worried (I mentioned this when we had Lin) are his handles. They suck, he just doesn't control the ball well. I can't ever see him performing well against a team like Miami or Boston because of this. He's going to have trouble just bringing the ball up the court against them. His defense is below average. He does have great court vision, good instincts, and he drives well. I suspect he's not going to shoot anywhere near as well percentage wise as he shot during Linsanity, in fact I suspect he's going to be a fairly low percentage shooter. He isn't a good shooter, he has TO issues, and his defense is below average.


Now Felton is coming off his worst season as a pro, but many players had down seasons last year and the season before that was his best. Felton actually wants to play for the Knicks (didn't want to play for Portland) and he'll drop his weight in training camp (yep he uses training camp for weight loss) so I think he'll be pretty average this upcoming season. 12 and 6, bad shooting percentages and solid defense.

No, I am aware of their additions and subtractions. To me, they didn't get better, they got older. I have no idea how they suddenly got cheap with Lin, when giving out 3 year deals to two geezers who will barely help. I honestly don't think they did well this summer at all. You will be dependent on a bounce back year from Amare, and Melo stepping his game up.

I'llhaveanother
08-04-2012, 06:03 PM
Tebow = #camparm

tmacsc2
08-04-2012, 06:05 PM
what is NY's fascination with hating on every team ever!?!?

knicksfan42
08-04-2012, 06:17 PM
No, I am aware of their additions and subtractions. To me, they didn't get better, they got older. I have no idea how they suddenly got cheap with Lin, when giving out 3 year deals to two geezers who will barely help. I honestly don't think they did well this summer at all. You will be dependent on a bounce back year from Amare, and Melo stepping his game up.


Yes, Kidd and Camby are old, but they're still good players. Camby is probably the best back up center in the league. Brewer is still one of the best defenders in the league and is better than Fields. We re-signed Jr Smith (who I admittedly hate) for less than what he could have gotten on the open market. If Felton plays in to his career averages (homer lens: he'll do a bit better than average playing motivated in New York with a training camp under his belt) we're definitely better.


Now you may not see us as having improved over the roster we had at the end of last season, but surely you agree that we drastically improved over the roster we had at the beginning of last season.



The Knicks have an improved roster (leaps and bounds better than the one we had at the start of last season), we're going to have a training camp, better chemistry given that this is the second season many of the players are going to be playing together, and hopefully a lot less injuries than we had last season.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 06:30 PM
Yes, Kidd and Camby are old, but they're still good players. Camby is probably the best back up center in the league.

They are not very good, and furthermore, even if they can contribute some this year, why give them 3 years? That is stupid.


Brewer is still one of the best defenders in the league and is better than Fields.

He essentially replaces Shump on defense, but sucks on offense. I would actually venture to say Brewer will help more then Camby and Kidd.


We re-signed Jr Smith (who I admittedly hate) for less than what he could have gotten on the open market.

I have really never liked him. Don't think he is a very good player at all, average at best. Shoots way too many bombs and is lazy on defense.


If Felton plays in to his career averages (homer lens: he'll do a bit better than average playing motivated in New York with a training camp under his belt) we're definitely better.

What is it with Felton? He gains weight, loses it, gains it, loses it. I don't think he has the fire anymore, but he is a capable backup who will be forced to start.



Now you may not see us as having improved over the roster we had at the end of last season, but surely you agree that we drastically improved over the roster we had at the beginning of last season.

Probably so, but then again, I was belittled by Knicks fans for saying before the season they would finish 7-8 in the east with that roster.

knicksfan42
08-04-2012, 07:08 PM
They are not very good, and furthermore, even if they can contribute some this year, why give them 3 years? That is stupid.

I think Kidd is still a very good back up and Camby is an excellent back up at the C spot. I get that they're old, but they played well last season. 3 years is perhaps too long, but Kidd and Camby were the best players we could get given our lack of cap. If this doesn't work out everyone is off the books in three years.




He essentially replaces Shump on defense, but sucks on offense. I would actually venture to say Brewer will help more then Camby and Kidd.



I actually think he's a bit better than Shump. I think Shumpert is very good, but at this point there are a handful of better perimeter defenders out there, Brewer being one of them. Fields is also bad offensively or at least he was last season. Brewer is an upgrade over Fields.



I have really never liked him. Don't think he is a very good player at all, average at best. Shoots way too many bombs and is lazy on defense.

I agree, he's a ****ing lunatic. Just does whatever he wants and it looks like Woodson gives him free reign to do it. I'm not even going to start on him cause this will turn into a term paper.


What is it with Felton? He gains weight, loses it, gains it, loses it. I don't think he has the fire anymore, but he is a capable backup who will be forced to start.

He's being doing it his entire career. Nothing to me indicates he's lost the fire. He's on a team he wants to play for, the same team he had his best season ever for (just one season removed from this past season). On the whole players played worse last season, largely due to no training camps and much more grueling schedule. You could say you think he lost the fire, but its pretty baseless. I would bet you that he at least plays into his averages next season.



Probably so, but then again, I was belittled by Knicks fans for saying before the season they would finish 7-8 in the east with that roster.


Not by me, I thought we would be a 6-8 seed. I remember two of the reasons you gave for putting us so low. One was you thought we lacked depth and the second reason, related to that, was that our players would be getting injured, because of this lack of depth problem being further amplified by the lockout schedule. This is what happened. Only thing is, by the end of the season we didn't have that lack of depth problem.

Kashmir13579
08-04-2012, 07:28 PM
This guy. What exactly have the Knicks and Brooklyn proven to anyone?

Kashmir13579
08-04-2012, 07:30 PM
One or two injuries and the Knicks are SUNK.

OldStyleCubbies
08-04-2012, 07:32 PM
The Knicks are ******* terrible. Who cares if they beat the Pacers a couple times last yr? Indiana is far superior.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 07:42 PM
I think Kidd is still a very good back up and Camby is an excellent back up at the C spot. I get that they're old, but they played well last season. 3 years is perhaps too long, but Kidd and Camby were the best players we could get given our lack of cap. If this doesn't work out everyone is off the books in three years.

Kidd is an average backup at this point. Funny enough, he is more of a spot up three point shooter then facilitator now. He is no longer a plus defender. Camby will still block some shots on the weakside, but he gets manhandled by strong post players at this point. 3 years is terrible, they will both be useless soon.




I actually think he's a bit better than Shump. I think Shumpert is very good, but at this point there are a handful of better perimeter defenders out there, Brewer being one of them. Fields is also bad offensively or at least he was last season. Brewer is an upgrade over Fields.

I like Shumpert better. Brewer is an elite defender, but sucks offensively, that being said, they won't ever let him shoot anyways. Stop gap for the Shumpert injury, no upgrade.



I agree, he's a ****ing lunatic. Just does whatever he wants and it looks like Woodson gives him free reign to do it. I'm not even going to start on him cause this will turn into a term paper.

haha, alright. Yeah, he irritates me every time I watch him. Little gangster chucker.


He's being doing it his entire career. Nothing to me indicates he's lost the fire. He's on a team he wants to play for, the same team he had his best season ever for (just one season removed from this past season). On the whole players played worse last season, largely due to no training camps and much more grueling schedule. You could say you think he lost the fire, but its pretty baseless. I would bet you that he at least plays into his averages next season.

Felton is simply an average starting NBA PG. A Felton/Kidd backcourt is not an upgrade over Lin. I still don't get why they went right after old geezers in free agency instead of matching Lin, and going after cheaper guys that fit better.




Not by me, I thought we would be a 6-8 seed. I remember two of the reasons you gave for putting us so low. One was you thought we lacked depth and the second reason, related to that, was that our players would be getting injured, because of this lack of depth problem being further amplified by the lockout schedule. This is what happened. Only thing is, by the end of the season we didn't have that lack of depth problem.

I can't believe you actually remember my reasons. Hey at least I know somebody read it haha.

Big Zo
08-04-2012, 07:49 PM
It's cute how fans of the team that has ONE playoff victory in the last decade think they are relevant.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 07:51 PM
It's cute how fans of the team that has ONE playoff victory in the last decade think they are relevant.

knock it off. You know anything in New York is amplified beyond belief. The Knicks are relevant, they were ravaged by injuries last year and their depth killed them, they should be stronger this year IF they can stay healthy, something I don't see happening unfortunately.

naps
08-04-2012, 07:53 PM
Lol Knicks are on Miami/Chicago/Boston level? :laugh:

Indiana is a better team than than the Knicks. I would bet my money on Indiana in a 7 games playoff battle against the Knicks with my eyes closed.

justinnum1
08-04-2012, 08:11 PM
knock it off. You know anything in New York is amplified beyond belief. The Knicks are relevant, they were ravaged by injuries last year and their depth killed them, they should be stronger this year IF they can stay healthy, something I don't see happening unfortunately.

Do you think the knicks are a top 3 seed?

Kashmir13579
08-04-2012, 08:15 PM
For all the moves and promises the Knicks have made, they are still one big question mark. Nothing has been proven.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 08:16 PM
Do you think the knicks are a top 3 seed?

Nope. But I think they could be a 5-6 seed, which is better then last year.

LeGacy is Music
08-04-2012, 08:17 PM
I really love how people just jump on the Knicks like we didn't go 18-6 when Danphoney left. We are defensive minded team. People always talk about the Knicks in the playoffs. In the past 2 years the Knicks have never gone into the playoffs having a full healthy roster. Lin being out, Amare and is break up fight with the extinguisher, Iman with his knee, then when B-diddy got hurt during the game the Knicks won the playoffs. This year we have strong pieces. I am not saying the Knicks are going to be the Champs but they should be in the top 3 in the east with Boston and Miami.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 08:20 PM
I really love how people just jump on the Knicks like we didn't go 18-6 when Danphoney left. We are defensive minded team. People always talk about the Knicks in the playoffs. In the past 2 years the Knicks have never gone into the playoffs having a full healthy roster. Lin being out, Amare and is break up fight with the extinguisher, Iman with his knee, then when B-diddy got hurt during the game the Knicks won the playoffs. This year we have strong pieces. I am not saying the Knicks are going to be the Champs but they should be in the top 3 in the east with Boston and Miami.

Unfortunately, we can't judge teams on short stretches. Teams always play better for a new coach, well almost always. It would be the same thing as making predictions based off a bad streak or a hot streak from any other team.

knicksfan42
08-04-2012, 08:27 PM
Kidd is an average backup at this point. Funny enough, he is more of a spot up three point shooter then facilitator now. He is no longer a plus defender. Camby will still block some shots on the weakside, but he gets manhandled by strong post players at this point. 3 years is terrible, they will both be useless soon.


Court vision doesn't diminish. Kidd can still pass and he was a very good rebounder (for a PG) last year. Kidd isn't a plus defender, but he's still passable on that end. Camby is there to block shots and grab an insane amount of boards in limited minutes. I'm interested to see what Prigioni can do as well. Also Kidd and Prigioni >>>>>>>>>> TD + corpse of Mike Bibby. With the three years its a all in approach; if it doesn't work out everyone is off the books in 3 years.



I like Shumpert better. Brewer is an elite defender, but sucks offensively, that being said, they won't ever let him shoot anyways. Stop gap for the Shumpert injury, no upgrade.


I think Shumpert is massively overrated. Yea he has a better offensive arsenal than Brewer, but does it matter when its super inefficient. I mean Brewer was awful on the efficiency front this year, but this was his worst year and career wise he's pretty efficient. I believe Shumpert will ultimately be the superior player, but at this point defense is what they do and Brewer is a better defender. At some point we'll have both Shumpert and Brewer.


haha, alright. Yeah, he irritates me every time I watch him. Little gangster chucker.

Contested long fade away J with 2 seconds on the clock is his go to move.


Felton is simply an average starting NBA PG. I agree, though the homer in me believes he will play a bit better than average next season .




A Felton/Kidd backcourt is not an upgrade over Lin.

I don't know honestly. I agree that I am being a hypocritical homer here though. I can tell you that looking solely at the figures this may not be true. Even last season I would rather have had Felton as the starting point vs teams like Miami and Boston. Lin does have the potential to be a top 10 PG though, provided he fix his handles. Problem with handles is that at this point they are something that comes naturally.



I still don't get why they went right after old geezers in free agency instead of matching Lin, and going after cheaper guys that fit better.


Why does it have to be either or, the Knicks could have acquired Kidd, Prigioni, and Camby along with Lin. Dolan is a pre-teen girl is why.



and going after cheaper guys that fit better.



Easier said than done; I don't see anyone cheaper who fits better that we could have gone after. Our GM found the best players he could find.




I can't believe you actually remember my reasons. Hey at least I know somebody read it haha.


You're one of the best poster on this site and one of the few reasons I enter the NBA forum.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 08:36 PM
Court vision doesn't diminish. Kidd can still pass and he was a very good rebounder (for a PG) last year. Kidd isn't a plus defender, but he's still passable on that end. Camby is there to block shots and grab an insane amount of boards in limited minutes. I'm interested to see what Prigioni can do as well. Also Kidd and Prigioni >>>>>>>>>> TD + corpse of Mike Bibby. With the three years its a all in approach; if it doesn't work out everyone is off the books in 3 years.

I noticed Kidd struggles to get lanes now though, which in Dallas's moving offense, shows he is not the facilitator he was. Camby is Camby, but as I said, he gets manhandled by strong bigs now. Uh, Bibby had to go, I thought he was one of the worst in the NBA last season.




I think Shumpert is massively overrated. Yea he has a better offensive arsenal than Brewer, but does it matter when its super inefficient. I mean Brewer was awful on the efficiency front this year, but this was his worst year and career wise he's pretty efficient. I believe Shumpert will ultimately be the superior player, but at this point defense is what they do and Brewer is a better defender. At some point we'll have both Shumpert and Brewer.

I see it as a stop gap, no upgrade really. Ie, no improvement there.


Contested long fade away J with 12 seconds on the clock is his go to move.

Wait, did we trade you JJ Barea?


I agree, though the homer in me believes he will play a bit better than average next season .

He did have a great run for you guys the year before last, but I still just see average.



I don't know honestly. I agree that I am being a hypocritical homer here though. I can tell you that looking solely at the figures this may not be true. Even last season I would rather have had Felton as the starting point vs teams like Miami and Boston. Lin does have the potential to be a top 10 PG though, provided he fix his handles. Problem with handles is that at this point they are something that comes naturally.

Rubio, when we were playing you guys, yelled at Adelman on the bench, "he can't go left", and just forced him left the entire second half. The result? 2-8, 5 turnovers from Lin. But I still think he is better then Felton.




Why does it have to be either or, the Knicks could have acquired Kidd, Prigioni, and Camby along with Lin. Dolan is a pre-teen girl is why.

Maybe the new CBA is actually having an effect? It just seemed weird to reach for those guys right off the bat.



Easier said than done; I don't see anyone cheaper who fits better that we could have gone after. Our GM found the best players he could find.

I disagree with you here.




You're one of the best poster on this site and one of the few reasons I enter the NBA forum.

Thank you for the compliment. I feel like I get lost in the sea of irrationality here many times.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 08:39 PM
I just watched a double amputee qualify for the semifinals in the 400 meter sprint. Holy **** I have a new hero.

SteBO
08-04-2012, 08:40 PM
I don't see any fascination here. All I see are rational NBA fans that understand the good foundation Indiana has set for themselves, and have gone through an offseason so far that had them improve their bench slightly, and didn't really downgrade at backup PG despite trading Darren Collison. I don't understand why some of you guys can't give the Pacers their credit. Until proven otherwise, they're the better team.

justinnum1
08-04-2012, 08:48 PM
I just watched a double amputee qualify for the semifinals in the 400 meter sprint. Holy **** I have a new hero.

That was pretty awesome, his shoe things looked pretty cool too, think they were nikes

bholly
08-04-2012, 08:49 PM
knock it off. You know anything in New York is amplified beyond belief. The Knicks are relevant, they were ravaged by injuries last year and their depth killed them, they should be stronger this year IF they can stay healthy, something I don't see happening unfortunately.

I think this is the most overlooked thing in these arguments - we all know they haven't proven they can play together, and you can argue forever about whether they will - but thinking the injury thing supports the argument that the Knicks underachieved and will be better is crazy.

"Oh, we had bad luck with injuries, we'll be better this year" - um, no, you have brittle, super injury prone guys who missed as much time as they always do and there's no reason to expect the same won't happen this year now that you've gotten even older.

Going into last season, the Knicks main three guys had played just 79.7% of their games over the last three seasons, and yet the fans were supremely confident based on that trio.
During the season, those three guys played 82.8% of their games, and suddenly the Knicks had huge injury problems that nobody could've forseen.

Um, what? The Knicks main guys weren't unlucky with injuries last season, they're just injury prone. That isn't bad luck, it's bad bodies. They missed less time than they have over recent seasons. Had less injuries than you'd expect given their histories.

Of course there was Lin, sure, and that definitely hurt - but he wasn't even part of the team and part of the reason they were all so confident last offseason (if anything he should've been a bonus on top of the offseason optimism), and isn't even part of the team now, so how does he make you confident now? Shumpert? Okay, but he was a rookie who missed 7 games, it's hardly season breaking. Baron? Yup, but we knew that going into the season, so that wasn't unforseen bad luck.

The Knicks probably had more injuries than most teams, but they had no more than you'd expect given their personell and their histories, and even had the bonus addition of Linsanity (which they couldn't have seen coming) to help them along, and they were still only one game ahead of the 8th seed.

Now they've added Jason Kidd (39, missed 18 games last year) and Marcus Camby (38, missed 26 games last year and 49% over the last 3), and we're suddenly supposed to believe they're going to be healthy and active and start to dominate?

No. The chances are that the Knicks are going to have significant injury problems again this year, and still struggle. It isn't going to be bad luck, it's going to be expected, because that's who their personell are - aging and injury prone. That's who they are, that's the gamble they were always taking by assembling this roster.

I can't guarantee that they'll have injuries, of course, but I definitely expect it. And I guess that's why I'm writing this - so when the Knicks struggle again this season and finish with a 5-8 seed and lose in the first round, the fans can't come along and say "well we were right to be super confident! We just had injuries that nobody could've predicted and that is what ruined us!"

Knicks21
08-04-2012, 08:52 PM
I suppose because they built their team the right way it is something to root for. Still they are not that good.

Knicks21
08-04-2012, 08:56 PM
I think this is the most overlooked thing in these arguments - we all know they haven't proven they can play together, and you can argue forever about whether they will - but thinking the injury thing supports the argument that the Knicks underachieved and will be better is crazy.

"Oh, we had bad luck with injuries, we'll be better this year" - um, no, you have brittle, super injury prone guys who missed as much time as they always do and there's no reason to expect the same won't happen this year now that you've gotten even older.

Going into last season, the Knicks main three guys had played just 79.7% of their games over the last three seasons, and yet the fans were supremely confident based on that trio.
During the season, those three guys played 82.8% of their games, and suddenly the Knicks had huge injury problems that nobody could've forseen.

Um, what? The Knicks main guys weren't unlucky with injuries last season, they're just injury prone. That isn't bad luck, it's bad bodies. They missed less time than they have over recent seasons. Had less injuries than you'd expect given their histories.

Of course there was Lin, sure, and that definitely hurt - but he wasn't even part of the team and part of the reason they were all so confident last offseason (if anything he should've been a bonus on top of the offseason optimism), and isn't even part of the team now, so how does he make you confident now? Shumpert? Okay, but he was a rookie who missed 7 games, it's hardly season breaking. Baron? Yup, but we knew that going into the season, so that wasn't unforseen bad luck.

The Knicks probably had more injuries than most teams, but they had no more than you'd expect given their personell and their histories, and even had the bonus addition of Linsanity (which they couldn't have seen coming) to help them along, and they were still only one game ahead of the 8th seed.

Now they've added Jason Kidd (39, missed 18 games last year) and Marcus Camby (38, missed 26 games last year and 49% over the last 3), and we're suddenly supposed to believe they're going to be healthy and active and start to dominate?

No. The chances are that the Knicks are going to have significant injury problems again this year, and still struggle. It isn't going to be bad luck, it's going to be expected, because that's who their personell are - aging and injury prone. That's who they are, that's the gamble they were always taking by assembling this roster.

I can't guarantee that they'll have injuries, of course, but I definitely expect it. And I guess that's why I'm writing this - so when the Knicks struggle again this season and finish with a 5-8 seed and lose in the first round, the fans can't come along and say "well we were right to be super confident! We just had injuries that nobody could've predicted and that is what ruined us!"

ACL injuries dont just happen to guys who are 'prone' to injuries. And slapping fire extinguishers isnt either.

knicksfan42
08-04-2012, 09:03 PM
I noticed Kidd struggles to get lanes now though, which in Dallas's moving offense, shows he is not the facilitator he was

Who needs passing lanes when you can throw out of bounds game winning alley-oop passes over Yao Ming.




Camby is Camby, but as I said, he gets manhandled by strong bigs now.


Camby never was a very good one on one defender. Yea he's gotten worse but he's still better than Harrellson or Jeffries.



Uh, Bibby had to go, I thought he was one of the worst in the NBA last season.

What's sad is he is still better than Toney Douglas.

Sad Fact:

Douglas and Bibby started a combined 13 games for the Knicks last season.

Fun Fact:

Toney Douglas posted negative Win Shares last season.




I see it as a stop gap, no upgrade really. Ie, no improvement there.

I pretty much agree. Again though we will have the two of them healthy at some point in the season.



Wait, did we trade you JJ Barea?


I see the mistake, sorry I meant to write 2 seconds on the clock not 12. The 12 second mark would be the point where Jr calls Chandler for a screen he doesn't in anyway utilize resulting in defenders pushing him to near half court. Edited my post so no one else gets confused.




He did have a great run for you guys the year before last, but I still just see average.

I agree, just the homer in me hoping he'll be a bit better than that.




Rubio, when we were playing you guys, yelled at Adelman on the bench, "he can't go left", and just forced him left the entire second half. The result? 2-8, 5 turnovers from Lin. But I still think he is better then Felton.


I think he's better, but not as much as people would like to think. A lot of it with Lin is potential. I think he'll be closer to the 14.6 PPG, 6.3 APG, 3.8 TO, .407% shooting he had the month after Linsanity. Going left is an issue for him but its part of a larger problem which his overall ball handling ability.




Maybe the new CBA is actually having an effect? It just seemed weird to reach for those guys right off the bat.

Maybe, but I think Kidd and Camby were the best we could get and Grunwald pulled the trigger as soon as the deal was in place.



I disagree with you here.


Fair enough , but who do you think we could have reasonably gotten. I honestly believe that immediate talent wise Kidd and Camby was as good as it was going to get for us. Strapped for cap.


Thank you for the compliment. I feel like I get lost in the sea of irrationality here many times.

Thanks for the rational, insightful, and fair posting.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2012, 09:04 PM
I think this is the most overlooked thing in these arguments - we all know they haven't proven they can play together, and you can argue forever about whether they will - but thinking the injury thing supports the argument that the Knicks underachieved and will be better is crazy.

"Oh, we had bad luck with injuries, we'll be better this year" - um, no, you have brittle, super injury prone guys who missed as much time as they always do and there's no reason to expect the same won't happen this year now that you've gotten even older.

Going into last season, the Knicks main three guys had played just 79.7% of their games over the last three seasons, and yet the fans were supremely confident based on that trio.
During the season, those three guys played 82.8% of their games, and suddenly the Knicks had huge injury problems that nobody could've forseen.

Um, what? The Knicks main guys weren't unlucky with injuries last season, they're just injury prone. That isn't bad luck, it's bad bodies. They missed less time than they have over recent seasons. Had less injuries than you'd expect given their histories.

Of course there was Lin, sure, and that definitely hurt - but he wasn't even part of the team and part of the reason they were all so confident last offseason (if anything he should've been a bonus on top of the offseason optimism), and isn't even part of the team now, so how does he make you confident now? Shumpert? Okay, but he was a rookie who missed 7 games, it's hardly season breaking. Baron? Yup, but we knew that going into the season, so that wasn't unforseen bad luck.

The Knicks probably had more injuries than most teams, but they had no more than you'd expect given their personell and their histories, and even had the bonus addition of Linsanity (which they couldn't have seen coming) to help them along, and they were still only one game ahead of the 8th seed.

Now they've added Jason Kidd (39, missed 18 games last year) and Marcus Camby (38, missed 26 games last year and 49% over the last 3), and we're suddenly supposed to believe they're going to be healthy and active and start to dominate?

No. The chances are that the Knicks are going to have significant injury problems again this year, and still struggle. It isn't going to be bad luck, it's going to be expected, because that's who their personell are - aging and injury prone. That's who they are, that's the gamble they were always taking by assembling this roster.

I can't guarantee that they'll have injuries, of course, but I definitely expect it. And I guess that's why I'm writing this - so when the Knicks struggle again this season and finish with a 5-8 seed and lose in the first round, the fans can't come along and say "well we were right to be super confident! We just had injuries that nobody could've predicted and that is what ruined us!"

I pretty much can't fault your research here, it's got to be a concern.

bholly
08-04-2012, 09:14 PM
ACL injuries dont just happen to guys who are 'prone' to injuries. And slapping fire extinguishers isnt either.

You're absolutely right, of course. Those were both bad luck injuries (or at least one was, while the other was probably more a result of bad brain). At the same time, I'm not sure they really affected the season outcome that much - even without those I don't think many would argue they would've gotten beyond the first round, so they maybe cost a win or two at most.
In my post I was talking more about the regular season stuff that lead a team with supreme confidence of a top 3 or 4 finish (at least in the fan base) to a much much worse record and 7th seed.

THE MTL
08-04-2012, 09:42 PM
I cannot stand this hate for the Knicks. The season needs to start now cause im sick of these haters. Knicks will prove themselves this season.

I think teams such as Indy, Philly, Utah just surprised everyone last season cause they were early high seeds due to young core and depth in a lockout season.

KnickFanSince91
08-04-2012, 09:50 PM
The pacers will win the weakest division in the east and will still be a 5 seed. I don't think they won a season series against a single playoff team in the east.

PacersForLife
08-04-2012, 09:53 PM
I cannot stand this hate for the Knicks. The season needs to start now cause im sick of these haters. Knicks will prove themselves this season.

I think teams such as Indy, Philly, Utah just surprised everyone last season cause they were early high seeds due to young core and depth in a lockout season.


I think teams such as Indy, Philly, Utah just surprised everyone last season
I'm sorry, but Utah and Indiana should not be mentioned as being similar in any way. Utah was an 8 seed, Indy a 3 seed.


I cannot stand this hate for the Knicks.
The reason they are getting so much hate is because of threads like this. Knicks fans are so eager to make everyone believe that their team is going to be an elite team. Also, coming at other teams and their fanbases isn't going to get you any love or respect.


they were early high seeds due to young core and depth in a lockout season.
I know the Thunder are on another level, but the same things can be said about them. Everyone acts like the shortened season made everything turn out so much different. Who are we to say so. You never know.

PacersForLife
08-04-2012, 09:54 PM
For all the moves and promises the Knicks have made, they are still one big question mark. Nothing has been proven.

Exactly, I bet we can go through all the threads made about the Knicks before last season and the same predictions were made. We can't predict anything at this point, the season still doesn't start for a few months...

Frozenred
08-04-2012, 10:06 PM
I mean seriously, what have they done?

So because in an injury shortened season, they were able to surpass a lot of teams because they had immense depth, because they beat a lotto team without Howard in the Magic and won two games against Miami without Bosh.

This is my pick of the year to have a major drop to 7th or 8th seed again, where they were in 2011 at 39-43. It's essentially a bunch of role players. Granger has been on decline for years now and Hibbert is overrated.

They had identical teams the past two years and the lockout helped them above most teams last year. Their team is decent but to say they are on Miami/Boston/Brooklyn/NY/Chicago (with Rose) level is ridiculous.

The Knicks are not close to being elite. The Pacers are a better team. Typical biasness from a Knick fan. The Nets aren't quite there yet either.

Blitzbolt
08-04-2012, 11:05 PM
Best Power Foward and Center Combo is the east that's why.

West and Hibbert could easily destroy any bigs from the Nets or the knicks.

JasonJohnHorn
08-04-2012, 11:18 PM
Though I don't believe that "everybody is fascinated with Indiana" (that is an overstatement), I do happen to be one of the people who is, so here are my reasons.

Firslty, they are a relatively small market with some great fans. Indy is a basketball city, and I would love for a championship to go to that city. The fans there deserve it.

Two, there is some great history with that team and they've had some great playoff runs, most notably with Reggie Miller (who is a class act and one of the best shooters in the history of the league).

Three, the team had some serious bad luck. The malice at the palace ruined what would have been a title-contending team and the fans there had their hearts broken after that blow up and deserve something to cheer about.

Fourth, I like their blue print. Build through the draft, make some nice trades, and some modest pick up in free agency. That is the blue print that I believe is healthy for the league, as opposed to the Miami and NY approach where you just dump contracts to clear capspace and hope to sign All-Stars in free agency. To me, that is not healthy for the league. I like to see a team get built the way that Indy got build. The way that Detroit built there championship team. The way OKC did. The way the Spurs have built their team. Every team in the league can afford to build a team like that and if they did the parity in the league would be better. If teams like; SA, Detroit, IND, and OKC can continue to win, then the league will be more competative and in turn more interesting to watch.

Fifth, they play team ball and have some stand up guys like Danny Granger who are competitive and do a lot for the community.

So what I hope to see is Indy and OKC and the Spurs continue to win and imrpove and contend so that other teams will be inspired to copy those approaches and improve the competativeness in the league.

That's why I am a fan of what is going on in Indy.

PacersForLife
08-04-2012, 11:53 PM
Though I don't believe that "everybody is fascinated with Indiana" (that is an overstatement), I do happen to be one of the people who is, so here are my reasons.

Firslty, they are a relatively small market with some great fans. Indy is a basketball city, and I would love for a championship to go to that city. The fans there deserve it.

Two, there is some great history with that team and they've had some great playoff runs, most notably with Reggie Miller (who is a class act and one of the best shooters in the history of the league).

Three, the team had some serious bad luck. The malice at the palace ruined what would have been a title-contending team and the fans there had their hearts broken after that blow up and deserve something to cheer about.

Fourth, I like their blue print. Build through the draft, make some nice trades, and some modest pick up in free agency. That is the blue print that I believe is healthy for the league, as opposed to the Miami and NY approach where you just dump contracts to clear capspace and hope to sign All-Stars in free agency. To me, that is not healthy for the league. I like to see a team get built the way that Indy got build. The way that Detroit built there championship team. The way OKC did. The way the Spurs have built their team. Every team in the league can afford to build a team like that and if they did the parity in the league would be better. If teams like; SA, Detroit, IND, and OKC can continue to win, then the league will be more competative and in turn more interesting to watch.

Fifth, they play team ball and have some stand up guys like Danny Granger who are competitive and do a lot for the community.

So what I hope to see is Indy and OKC and the Spurs continue to win and imrpove and contend so that other teams will be inspired to copy those approaches and improve the competativeness in the league.

That's why I am a fan of what is going on in Indy.

Bravo. :clap:

JerseyPalahniuk
08-04-2012, 11:57 PM
The pacers will win the weakest division in the east and will still be a 5 seed. I don't think they won a season series against a single playoff team in the east.

Winning a division guarantees a 3 seed dude

justinnum1
08-05-2012, 12:09 AM
The pacers will win the weakest division in the east and will still be a 5 seed. I don't think they won a season series against a single playoff team in the east.


Winning a division guarantees a 3 seed dude

:burn:

bucketss
08-05-2012, 12:27 AM
I cannot stand this hate for the Knicks. The season needs to start now cause im sick of these haters. Knicks will prove themselves this season.

I think teams such as Indy, Philly, Utah just surprised everyone last season cause they were early high seeds due to young core and depth in a lockout season.

maybe you knick fans need to stop overatting your players/team than maybe people will feel like not hating anymore?

DoMeFavors
08-05-2012, 12:34 AM
You need all stars to win and Indiana just doesnt have that, id take Bulls,Knicks,Nets,Heat,Celtics roster over Indiana. Indiana has no chance in the playoffs who is even their go to guy?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-05-2012, 12:54 AM
Winning a division guarantees a 3 seed dude

Nah it's top 4, but if the 4th seed has a worse record than the 5th seed the 5th seed gets HCA.

Vampirate
08-05-2012, 01:20 AM
Team-Offensvie rank-Defensive rank

Pacers- 7- 9
Knicks- 17- 6
Nets- 23- 38

The Knicks really aren't much better, if any then last year. The Nets are not going to be a top 16 defensive team this season, and their offense is probably hovering around 9-12.

The Pacers are still winning more games then either barring health.

Who are the mystery 8 teams the Nets were worse than? :D

jtrinaldi
08-05-2012, 01:43 AM
Preach it my broth, Fear the ****ing Deer!!!!

TeamSeattle
08-05-2012, 02:09 AM
It's cute how fans of the team that has ONE playoff victory in the last decade think they are relevant.

I love how everyone loves to quote this. We only been in the playoffs the past 2 years out of ten. Doesn't seem so bad when you see who we were playing and how many games there actually were; not to mention our injuries during both series.

Knicks21
08-05-2012, 02:29 AM
I swear New York better perform or something is incredibly ****ing wrong.

IndyHeatjman
08-05-2012, 02:42 AM
I love how everyone loves to quote this. We only been in the playoffs the past 2 years out of ten. Doesn't seem so bad when you see who we were playing and how many games there actually were; not to mention our injuries during both series.
^Not to Mention:
Melo slackin'(not for USA)
Amare failing(what's up with that?) Honestly a top 5 PF.
Linsanity = mute on the TV(It's over in NY.)
J-Kidd = bad knees
Camby = bad back
J.R Smith...thinks he's "awesome"
But Chandler's the DPOY...Melo and Amare could be boosted by Kidd's "know how" on the court. And Camby's Style of play can be a solid backup plan to the Skill of Chandler. Probably 7th or 8th seed this year without productivity, and 3rd seed at best case scenario. However, Indy is all about chemistry. Best case for them 2nd in conference. They got the potential to get it done. Celtics seem like the "given 2nd" seed. I dont agree with that. The changes in their lineup could potentially capsize their playoff hopes. No doubt they have still maintaned a good core, just seeing them matched up to a team like the Pacers with Length and Toughness makes them appear to be insufficiant. Particularly at the 2 guard position. Indy now has an offseason to let things gel with their "new found hope" of a starting 5. Hibbert and Hill both got paid and are on cue to deliver.

Evolution23
08-05-2012, 02:51 AM
Chicago > Indiana with Rose. KNicks > Indiana . Nets < Indiana but just slightly

IndyHeatjman
08-05-2012, 03:03 AM
Chicago > Indiana with Rose. KNicks > Indiana . Nets < Indiana but just slightly

^ Chicago is questionable this year with or without rose. No guarentee he'll be back to his old ways.Hinrich and robinson are in consistant. Knicks still have a lot to prove to be greater than Indy. For example, in the playoffs last year. The closest a team got to beating the heat. Nets, are lookin good. Not much depth though. And again Celtics are shakin' up with new roster additions and most notably departures. Pacers kept Starting 5 and added key depth to their team. Honestly could have a solid 12 player rotation if need be.

oballers
08-05-2012, 03:21 AM
Whatever you say man...here's a secret we all kept from you Knicks fans, we all wish our team can play the Knicks in the play-offs.

Whoa, slow down there big boy... You act as if your team has never sucked!!! You are probably 12 or something and therefore don't remember the dog days in Miami.

You probably don't also know that since 1987 (I know the Heat have a long and deep history practically synonymous with the NBA. For that matter wasn't basketball invented by the Heat back in '87?)

BTW, here are some startling facts to wrap your brain around.

- Since 1987 the HEAT & the KNICKS have BOTH Missed the playoffs 8 times

- The HEAT have won 965 games over that span and What???? the KNICKS have won 1026??? How can that be. ah right we never sucked as bad as the Heat did with your 3 years of less than 20 wins.

- But you have probably beat us in more playoff series' right? Nope. 3-2 in favor of the Knicks (Lebron's got you in striking distance though)

- For that matter, thank goodness for Lebron because otherwise we would have a winning playoff record against you too. So LBJ has given you a respectable 15-14 record against the lowly Knicks

Wow! How's the weather uo there on your high horse? Would you like to come down now?

I'll tell you what. Stay up there where the air is thin for a little while longer. And keep wishing you play the Knicks in the Playoffs.

Because this year it'll have to take place in the conference Semifinals and we'll take great pleasure in knocking your ***es out. Just as we have done 3 times before. Hopefully all that lack of oxygen up there won't leave permanant brain damage.

It would suck to be a HEAT fan and clinically an idiot as well.

KnickFanSince91
08-05-2012, 04:09 AM
Winning a division guarantees a 3 seed dude

Nah it's top 4, but if the 4th seed has a worse record than the 5th seed the 5th seed gets HCA.

Thank you for saving me the time

lakerboy
08-05-2012, 04:34 AM
the knicks are a dynasty in the mind of their fans...i mean, who else won one total play-off game in the last 8 years?

wahahahhaha

STL Don
08-05-2012, 06:48 AM
From players 1-12, they have one of the greatest team depth's in the league.
All they need is for one player to rise above and be the clear cut star player on the team.
I think that player may be Paul George. He has all the tools to do so, just gotta find consistency with that jumper.

SportsFanatic10
08-05-2012, 08:16 AM
Whoa, slow down there big boy... You act as if your team has never sucked!!! You are probably 12 or something and therefore don't remember the dog days in Miami.

You probably don't also know that since 1987 (I know the Heat have a long and deep history practically synonymous with the NBA. For that matter wasn't basketball invented by the Heat back in '87?)

BTW, here are some startling facts to wrap your brain around.

- Since 1987 the HEAT & the KNICKS have BOTH Missed the playoffs 8 times

- The HEAT have won 965 games over that span and What???? the KNICKS have won 1026??? How can that be. ah right we never sucked as bad as the Heat did with your 3 years of less than 20 wins.

- But you have probably beat us in more playoff series' right? Nope. 3-2 in favor of the Knicks (Lebron's got you in striking distance though)

- For that matter, thank goodness for Lebron because otherwise we would have a winning playoff record against you too. So LBJ has given you a respectable 15-14 record against the lowly Knicks

Wow! How's the weather uo there on your high horse? Would you like to come down now?

I'll tell you what. Stay up there where the air is thin for a little while longer. And keep wishing you play the Knicks in the Playoffs.

Because this year it'll have to take place in the conference Semifinals and we'll take great pleasure in knocking your ***es out. Just as we have done 3 times before. Hopefully all that lack of oxygen up there won't leave permanant brain damage.

It would suck to be a HEAT fan and clinically an idiot as well.

the guy you were responding to is a d***, but really? lol. the heat have 2 championships and a finals appearence in the last 6 years. you can't trump that no matter what kinda knick stats you reach for. and get real, the knicks aren't beating the heat in a playoff series right now unless miami has serious injuries. and by injuries i mean 2 out of the big 3 being out or hurt badly enough to be ineffective. the heat would beat the knicks even with 1 of them missing. the pacers are better than the knicks and the heat beat them 4-2 without bosh and with wade clearly not himself so dream on.

Big Zo
08-05-2012, 11:24 AM
Whoa, slow down there big boy... You act as if your team has never sucked!!! You are probably 12 or something and therefore don't remember the dog days in Miami.

You probably don't also know that since 1987 (I know the Heat have a long and deep history practically synonymous with the NBA. For that matter wasn't basketball invented by the Heat back in '87?)

BTW, here are some startling facts to wrap your brain around.

- Since 1987 the HEAT & the KNICKS have BOTH Missed the playoffs 8 times

- The HEAT have won 965 games over that span and What???? the KNICKS have won 1026??? How can that be. ah right we never sucked as bad as the Heat did with your 3 years of less than 20 wins.

- But you have probably beat us in more playoff series' right? Nope. 3-2 in favor of the Knicks (Lebron's got you in striking distance though)

- For that matter, thank goodness for Lebron because otherwise we would have a winning playoff record against you too. So LBJ has given you a respectable 15-14 record against the lowly Knicks

Wow! How's the weather uo there on your high horse? Would you like to come down now?

I'll tell you what. Stay up there where the air is thin for a little while longer. And keep wishing you play the Knicks in the Playoffs.

Because this year it'll have to take place in the conference Semifinals and we'll take great pleasure in knocking your ***es out. Just as we have done 3 times before. Hopefully all that lack of oxygen up there won't leave permanant brain damage.

It would suck to be a HEAT fan and clinically an idiot as well.

Blah blah blah. Most of the Heat's futility came in the first 4 years of their existance. They've had good teams for the most part since Pat Riley came in 1995. The Knicks on the other hand, haven't won **** since 1973, and have won only two championships in 60+ years of existance.

oballers
08-05-2012, 02:20 PM
the guy you were responding to is a d***, but really? lol. the heat have 2 championships and a finals appearence in the last 6 years. you can't trump that no matter what kinda knick stats you reach for. and get real, the knicks aren't beating the heat in a playoff series right now unless miami has serious injuries. and by injuries i mean 2 out of the big 3 being out or hurt badly enough to be ineffective. the heat would beat the knicks even with 1 of them missing. the pacers are better than the knicks and the heat beat them 4-2 without bosh and with wade clearly not himself so dream on.
I respect your argument but if anything we are a legacy.

- 60 years in the NBA .

- From 46 - 59 we went to the playoffs 11 times and 3 NBA finals.

- The Red Holtzman years (+ Dick Maguire, Willis Reed, Hubie) one of the winingest teams in the NBA went to the Playoffs 13 times, won 2 championships

- The Pitino, Riley, JVan Gundy years again one of the winningest teams in basketball wnt to the playoffs 14 years in a row incl 2 NBA finals.

All in all 38 trips to the Playoffs in 56 years.

The Celtics and the Lakers are NBA Dynasties. The Bulls and Spurs are blips on the radar screen and the Heat aren't even on the map yet. I'm not saying that you can't be in the future. I'm just saying the "High Mighty" attitude is a bit Johnny come lately for me and winning can go as fast as it comes.

The Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, Pistons and Knicks are the all time winning-est teams in the NBA and all have had long stretches of succes multiple times. And still nothing compares to the Celtics and Lakers they are the only NBA dynasties.

As for the Knicks, you don't think we don't know that we sucked during the Leydan, Thomas years?

You actually think you know how bad we were better than we do??? Did you suffer more than we did? And better yet, shall I say since the emergence of Jim (the Wiz) Dolan? Who could possibly hate him more than a Knicks fan and who could possibly remember us sucking more... But seriously those stretches happen to every team even the Celtics and the Lakers (only once).

Do you think I don't know that the Heat traded their whole team minus my boy Rafer & D-Wade for Shaq and won a title?

How did that turn out. The heat got 1. Theny realized at $30 Mil what an overpaid ***hole they picked up cut thier losses and became a 15 game winning team.

Then comes "The Decision" and now you bought another championship. Yes you have 2 in 10 years. But the Heat are faaaaaaar from a 'Dynasty'!

The Knicks currently constructed are good enough to beat you regardless of whether or not you use injuries as an excuse. The question is just whether we will or not. I'm not saying we will be better than the Heat or the Celtics this year and I only see us marginally better than the Pacers (by a hair) but in the playoffs in a 7 game series anything can happen. I've seen 8 seeds go to the Finals...

If you don' think the Knicks with Melo, Amare & Chandler who are good for 55.2 PPG, 23.7 Reb, 3.3 BLKS are tough and with the bench that we have... Well then I invite you to sleep on us and while your sleeping keep dreaming of that 'Dynasty' that dmoron or whatever his name is... seems to think you have.

But if we beat you cuz Lebron pulls a groin muscle and Bosh is suspended after jumping on the court because D.Wade was pummeled and thrown into the 3rd row. Then save the excuses for someone else, thats basketball and it takes more than something like 'The Decision' to flip the game on its head.

Big Zo
08-05-2012, 03:28 PM
The Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, Pistons and Knicks are the all time winning-est teams in the NBA and all have had long stretches of succes multiple times

No one cares about regular season success, or coming in second place in the Finals. All those other teams you mentioned have won a championship more recently than the Knicks, and 3 of them have more championships.


The Bulls and Spurs are blips on the radar screen and the Heat aren't even on the map yet

The Bulls and Spurs have a much better history than the Knicks. Bulls not only have 6 championships, but they can also lay claim to once having the greatest player of all-time. The Spurs are better because they have two more, and the Heat are already tied with the Knicks at 2. Oh, and let's not forget that most of the Knicks' success, and both championships came in the pre-1980 era, when the Finals were shown on tape delay, and no one cared about basketball.

b@llhog24
08-05-2012, 03:33 PM
I am a fan of Granger I feel he is the most underated player in the NBA but....why do people keep saying they are better than us when we won the seasons series 2-1.

And we man handled them during a home and home in March. One 15 point win and one 14 point win. They beat us by 8 once last year. So we dominated them twice on back to back nights each by double digits yet they are said to be better than us? I dont get it.

They are well coached and have nice young talent but head to head we smacked them around while they eeked out a 8 point win.

Last year we went 2-2 against them and this year we went 2-1. How are they judged to be that much better?

Cause the Knicks aren't the only team in the league.

Clutch1
08-05-2012, 04:11 PM
The Pacers remind me a lot of the 03-08 Pistons. They are good at practically everything, but not terrific at anything. They don't have a super star, but have a starting line up that consists of very good team players. They are good offensively and defensively and have great size and depth. Aswell as a remotely young team. Paul george will have a break out year and play a huge role in their success. With good health this team will be a top 3 seat in the East and make a deep run. All joking aside this team has the tools and potential to give the Heat a go in the conference finals.

dnewguy
08-05-2012, 06:13 PM
Blah blah blah. Most of the Heat's futility came in the first 4 years of their existance. They've had good teams for the most part since Pat Riley came in 1995. The Knicks on the other hand, haven't won **** since 1973, and have won only two championships in 60+ years of existance.

Shameful.

DWhiteTheTruth
08-06-2012, 10:13 AM
Pacers dont scare me for some odd reason, those Pistons teams with no superstar but a ton of GOOD/star players they still had bigtime clutch players who on this Pacer team are you going to go to for a BIGTIME bucket? Granger just doesnt do it for me. Paul George has the potential to be that guy.

JordansBulls
08-09-2012, 10:45 AM
Not sure. If they had a superstar they could be dangerous though.