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View Full Version : Perception of Pierce before the Big 3



Wade>You
08-02-2012, 02:57 PM
Do you agree that before the arrival of the Big 3, Paul Pierce was regarded in the same light as Carmelo Anthony is today?

And if Carmelo were to win a title, would people look at him the way Pierce is looked at today?

For those that don't remember, Pierce was considered an underachiever with his lack of success in the playoffs. That all changed when the Big 3 came to Boston and won a title.

Chronz
08-02-2012, 03:01 PM
Not like Melo but pretty similarly

Utd7
08-02-2012, 03:06 PM
Sorta but a lot of people had a better perception of Paul when Ray Ray and KG arrived because of the sacrifice he was willing to make as the franchise player in order to succeed.

scutch11
08-02-2012, 03:14 PM
I'd say Pierce's pre-big3 career is probably the closest comparison to Melo's career arc so far out of any player I've seen

Tumstock
08-02-2012, 03:14 PM
Never thought about this before, but i think you're right!

Wade>You
08-02-2012, 03:18 PM
I'd say Pierce's pre-big3 career is probably the closest comparison to Melo's career arc so far out of any player I've seenI thought I was the only one who felt that way. That's why I asked this Q. The similarities are stunning.

scutch11
08-02-2012, 03:27 PM
I thought I was the only one who felt that way. That's why I asked this Q. The similarities are stunning.

The only thing is passing. Pierce is a considered a good passer now (at least in my mind) but I don't remember if he was considered one before

DoMeFavors
08-02-2012, 03:44 PM
Melo has played with more talent than Pierce ever did before Pierce met with the big 3, during his Denver days he played with Billups,Nene,Martin,Camby. Now he plays with Amare.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2012, 03:47 PM
Melo with defense, yep. In Pierce's peak, he was maybe the toughest one on one stop in the NBA.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2012, 03:48 PM
Melo has played with more talent than Pierce ever did before Pierce met with the big 3, during his Denver days he played with Billups,Nene,Martin,Camby. Now he plays with Amare.

Did you forget this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2t8Ba0nyXI

MiamiLoyal926
08-02-2012, 03:51 PM
Melo has played with more talent than Pierce ever did before Pierce met with the big 3, during his Denver days he played with Billups,Nene,Martin,Camby. Now he plays with Amare.

Four words... World champion Antoine Walker!!

Enough said!! Paul pierce has no excuse!

DoMeFavors
08-02-2012, 03:56 PM
Did you forget this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2t8Ba0nyXI

No the guy sucked

Hustlenomics
08-02-2012, 04:07 PM
Pierce was a monster before Ray and Garnett came

Hawkeye15
08-02-2012, 04:09 PM
No the guy sucked

It was a joke dude.

Forever35
08-02-2012, 04:23 PM
Pierce was a monster before Ray and Garnett came

His health has allowed him to be a consistent force... Even when he was almost stabbed to death he came back and played a full 82 game season... I really hope he's given the chance to be the C's all time scoring leader... Avg 74 games a year is OK by me...

As for the Melo comparison... I'll wait till Melo hoists up the hardware... :shrug:

Cal827
08-02-2012, 04:35 PM
Wow, I really didn't think of this but the Melo comparison is an excellent one. Kudos to you :clap:

Although I think Pierce was a bit better of a defender.

If Melo does win a title with NY, I think people would look at him on par or higher with Pierce mainly because:

1) Freaking New York, and to win a title, he would have to get by some of these teams that look like they will be forces for years to come (Miami, Brookyln, Chicago). Boston didn't really have another team that would be considered a dominant force along with them when they won their title (Weakened Cav team, Declining Pistons team, young Magic team)

2) He didn't have two sure-fire HOFers on his side when he won. Amar'e could possibly be one (highly doubt it since it looks like he's already on the decline), and Chandler would need to add titles and DPOYs in order to be considered. Pierce got Ray Allen, possibly the best sharpshooter in NBA history, and KG, a man who led some terrible T'Wolves teams into the playoffs as well as a former MVP.

teddygreen17
08-02-2012, 04:38 PM
I can see the similarities..Pierce was not asked to do much before because he had the entire offensive burden. Kinda the same with Melo (Nene, martin, Camby, etc) are not primary scorers. However i will say this..Pierce was able to expand his game when the big 3 was formed and he became a well rounded player. Let's see if Melo can do the same.

Kashmir13579
08-02-2012, 04:42 PM
Not like Melo but pretty similarly

How is it different?

Kashmir13579
08-02-2012, 04:45 PM
btw i've been making this comparison for years. I think the perfect storm of age, desperation to finally win, and the OPPORTUNITY to play with 2 other stars in the same situation was able to rid Pierce of his stigmas. Will Carmelo Anthony be that lucky? Doubtful.

Kashmir13579
08-02-2012, 04:52 PM
His health has allowed him to be a consistent force... Even when he was almost stabbed to death he came back and played a full 82 game season... I really hope he's given the chance to be the C's all time scoring leader... Avg 74 games a year is OK by me...

As for the Melo comparison... I'll wait till Melo hoists up the hardware... :shrug:

'Melo "hoists" up a lot of things, but not the hardware.

KingPosey
08-02-2012, 04:59 PM
ABsolutely I agree because I was about to use Melo as my exact example. Only Pierce was not even considered on Melo's level. Never have I seen someone get such a reputation change so fast in the NBA. He went from being a chucker that doesnt make people better, to analysts actually agreeing with Pierce's statement that he was the best player in the game after they won. It was ridiculous.

I think Pierce caught too much slack then, just as I do Melo now, and I think Pierce also got waaaay too much credit after the big 3 was formed.

xxplayerxx23
08-02-2012, 05:03 PM
Pretty much. If melo can do what he did last year on defense and keep Improving on defense then yes I think your right. Melo has all the talent in the world he has no excuse lets see what he does this year

smith&wesson
08-02-2012, 05:04 PM
prime pierce > melo.

alexander_37
08-02-2012, 05:08 PM
Paul Pierce in his prime > Melo now. He may not be quite as good a scorer but played good defense.

Punk
08-02-2012, 05:18 PM
I'd agree but Pierce played on a few bad Celtics teams while Melo stayed on a 50 win team for most of his career that's the difference but Pierce didn't buy in defensively until they added Garnett and Allen. Melo will play his 1st season with a defensive minded head coach and 80% defensive players, so there is some similarities.


Paul Pierce in his prime > Melo now. He may not be quite as good a scorer but played good defense.

LOL No.

The Celtics were a lottery team and inconsistent for much of the time. Antonie Walker was mostly why they were a deep playoff team.

Pierce didn't buy in defensively until Doc Rivers took over and they added Garnett/Allen.

BoSox47
08-02-2012, 05:21 PM
LOL No.

The Celtics were a lottery team and inconsistent for much of the time. Antonie Walker was mostly why they were a deep playoff team.

Pierce didn't buy in defensively until Doc Rivers took over and they added Garnett/Allen.

/ya but pierces defense was considerably better then melos, do you see how bad melo is at defense.

GoPacers33
08-02-2012, 05:23 PM
melo with defense, yep. In pierce's peak, he was maybe the toughest one on one stop in the nba.

x2

KNICKS R BACK
08-02-2012, 05:31 PM
in all honesty...i percieved him as a gutless wonder before the title, the same way a lot of people look at melo...however, i didnt look at pierce as being as talented as melo, not quite

xxplayerxx23
08-02-2012, 05:34 PM
Punk :facepalm: Pierce played way better defense then melo has ever played. Nobody sees melo has improved because of his repuation, (He has improved) but he is nowhere near Pierce defense.

SteBO
08-02-2012, 05:39 PM
Paul Pierce has always been a very good defender. Not sure why I'm reading that Pierce never bought in defensively. One on one, he was a very tough out in his prime.

JasonJohnHorn
08-02-2012, 05:44 PM
I think comparing him to Melo is not quite right. Remember, Pierce lead the Celtics to the conference finals earlier in his career, something it took Melo years to do in Denver, and when the Celtics started sucking, I remember Stern being asked about the shape of the NBA where some of the biggest stars weren't even in the playoffs, and Pierce was noted as one of those stars. I think PP's game is more complete than Melo and I think he's more of a leader than is Melo. When the Nuggets made that push to the conference finals, it was really Billups who was leading that team.

Melo's good, but I think Pierce was and is considered a better player.

Da Knicks
08-02-2012, 05:59 PM
Before i came into the thread I was going to say Melo eventhough Melo has him beat by miles as far as an offensive threat. People have not watched closely but Melo is actually playing defense now and finally has a training camp to gel with Amare and crew.

KingPosey
08-02-2012, 06:04 PM
All you guys must be young, Pierce caught all kinds of **** throughout his career. He really wasnt considered much more than a volume shooter who could score in a lot of ways. Whether or not that was true isnt what im saying.

Evolution23
08-02-2012, 06:07 PM
'Melo "hoists" up a lot of things, but not the hardware.

What happened to Andy Routins? Does he still play in the NBA?

Da Knicks
08-02-2012, 06:19 PM
What happened to Andy Routins? Does he still play in the NBA?

I think he is cleaning Melos shoes after every olympic game.:)

Kashmir13579
08-02-2012, 06:25 PM
What happened to Andy Routins? Does he still play in the NBA?

Rautins*, and if 'Melo had half of his basketball smarts he would be hoisting the hardware. Unfortunately, 'Melo is a cancerous goon that makes for a boring watch and first round bounces.

Why bring up Andy, though? Do you think it makes me angry? Anytime i so much as see Andy Rautins' name, i remember this shot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY9EJVGthPo


Its like instant gratification. AKA i'm in a better mood after you tried to troll me than before.

Thanks.

justinnum1
08-02-2012, 07:15 PM
Rautins*, and if 'Melo had half of his basketball smarts he would be hoisting the hardware. Unfortunately, 'Melo is a cancerous goon that makes for a boring watch and first round bounces.

Why bring up Andy, though? Do you think it makes me angry? Anytime i so much as see Andy Rautins' name, i remember this shot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY9EJVGthPo


Its like instant gratification. AKA i'm in a better mood after you tried to troll me than before.

Thanks.
:speechless:

Hawkeye15
08-02-2012, 07:20 PM
Before i came into the thread I was going to say Melo eventhough Melo has him beat by miles as far as an offensive threat. People have not watched closely but Melo is actually playing defense now and finally has a training camp to gel with Amare and crew.

In Pierce's peak, he was a better offensive player then Melo, and has always been a better defender.

WhiskeyBear
08-02-2012, 07:33 PM
fat

Da Knicks
08-02-2012, 07:58 PM
In Pierce's peak, he was a better offensive player then Melo, and has always been a better defender.

No

Fly
08-02-2012, 08:17 PM
No

Yes. Stop being a homer.

justinnum1
08-02-2012, 08:21 PM
No

Homer alert.

xxplayerxx23
08-02-2012, 08:24 PM
Pierce was always a better defender, and could score with anybody. IM not so sure I would say Pierce was the better scorer but he was close

69centers
08-02-2012, 08:58 PM
/ya but pierces defense was considerably better then melos, do you see how bad melo is at defense.

You have to actually do something it to be bad at it.


Paul Pierce has always been a very good defender. Not sure why I'm reading that Pierce never bought in defensively. One on one, he was a very tough out in his prime.

Yes.


Pierce was always a better defender, and could score with anybody. IM not so sure I would say Pierce was the better scorer but he was close

Pierce not the better scorer? How about Pierce scoring 2,000+ points in 4 different seasons. Melo only did it once.

COOLbeans
08-02-2012, 09:06 PM
Paul Pierce played excellently that one year in the playoffs when they had Antwon Walker. Pierce has carried teams on his back, wereas Melo has never done that since he's always had other allstars playing with him such as AI, Kenyon Martin and Amare. There's no comparing those two players IMO.

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-02-2012, 09:11 PM
Melo with defense, yep. In Pierce's peak, he was maybe the toughest one on one stop in the NBA.

Lol I can name 5-10 players better then pierce who were tougher to stop at their peak !

Aka
Kobe
McGrady
Iverson just to name a couple

COOLbeans
08-02-2012, 09:17 PM
Lol I can name 5-10 players better then pierce who were tougher to stop at their peak !

Aka
Kobe
McGrady
Iverson just to name a couple

I think they're all in the same league in terms of being able to get their own shot at any possible moment. Ranking them is a waste of time really since they all did at least that one thing great and it really would come down to who you like better.

alexander_37
08-02-2012, 09:19 PM
I'd agree but Pierce played on a few bad Celtics teams while Melo stayed on a 50 win team for most of his career that's the difference but Pierce didn't buy in defensively until they added Garnett and Allen. Melo will play his 1st season with a defensive minded head coach and 80% defensive players, so there is some similarities.



LOL No.

The Celtics were a lottery team and inconsistent for much of the time. Antonie Walker was mostly why they were a deep playoff team.

Pierce didn't buy in defensively until Doc Rivers took over and they added Garnett/Allen.

Lmfao you must be what 12-14?

Pierce is a career 102 Drtg defender

Melo 107

Melo has gotten progressively worse as his career has gone on until last season he put up 102 which looks like a flue considering his prior 3 are 111 107 and 108

Pierce had his worst defensive seasons from 2005-2007 with a 105 106 and 107. Other than that he has hovered from 99-103. Including a 99 last season.

Pierce ***** on Melo defensively.

TheNumber37
08-02-2012, 09:38 PM
not like melo at all, pierce was a better defender, passer and outside shooter. before the big 3, he might not have been HOF... he was maybe the most underrated player in the league though.

justinnum1
08-02-2012, 09:45 PM
Lmfao you must be what 12-14?

Pierce is a career 102 Drtg defender

Melo 107

Melo has gotten progressively worse as his career has gone on until last season he put up 102 which looks like a flue considering his prior 3 are 111 107 and 108

Pierce had his worst defensive seasons from 2005-2007 with a 105 106 and 107. Other than that he has hovered from 99-103. Including a 99 last season.

Pierce ***** on Melo defensively.

Drtg is not a very good representation of a players defensive abilities, boozer was top 3 in Drtg last season...nothing else needs to be said.

Pierce is decent on D, melo is not that good. Neither are great

SeoulBeatz
08-02-2012, 09:52 PM
Before the big 3, I had Pierce in the Vince Carter/T-Mac category.

After the big 3, he's a HOFer.

Funny how things work out.

alexander_37
08-02-2012, 10:00 PM
Drtg is not a very good representation of a players defensive abilities, boozer was top 3 in Drtg last season...nothing else needs to be said.

Pierce is decent on D, melo is not that good. Neither are great

He also destroys him in Win shares, defensive win shares, WS/48, PER, reb%, steal%, true shooting% and Ortg.

NYY 26 to 7
08-02-2012, 10:15 PM
People have their perceptions already and clearly can't differentiate between pierce pre big 3 and post big 3. I've made this comparison many times before. Pierce did not have a great rep an I would say in his true prime wasn't even considered at the level melo is now.

javaid64
08-02-2012, 10:20 PM
pierce has exactly one chip, no olympics, no national champion.

i've been watching basketball 13 years and i dont ever remember pre big 3 him being a super winner, he couldn't make the playoffs over east dwelles, the two years before they got the big 3, they had jefferson, green, wally szerbiak, ricky davis, rondo, tony allen, delonte, perkins etc. its not like he was devoid of talent.

the early-mid 2000s the east team under the top 3 were atrocious and pierce could still not make the playoffs consistently yet melo made the playoffs every year in a deep western confrence

when a good (not great) player like pierce got lucky with garnet and ray allen he suddenly becomes a HOFer
pre Big-3, Melo was still considered a better player than pierce as far as i remember
he suddenly got put on a pedestal after he got 2 HOFer

Losoway
08-02-2012, 10:30 PM
dont ever put melo and pierce in the same sentence

alexander_37
08-02-2012, 10:32 PM
pierce has exactly one chip, no olympics, no national champion.

i've been watching basketball 13 years and i dont ever remember pre big 3 him being a super winner, he couldn't make the playoffs over east dwelles, the two years before they got the big 3, they had jefferson, green, wally szerbiak, ricky davis, rondo, tony allen, delonte, perkins etc. its not like he was devoid of talent.

the early-mid 2000s the east team under the top 3 were atrocious and pierce could still not make the playoffs consistently yet melo made the playoffs every year in a deep western confrence

when a good (not great) player like pierce got lucky with garnet and ray allen he suddenly becomes a HOFer
pre Big-3, Melo was still considered a better player than pierce as far as i remember
he suddenly got put on a pedestal after he got 2 HOFer

Its not called watching basketball when you clearly had your eyes closed.

javaid64
08-02-2012, 10:59 PM
Its not called watching basketball when you clearly had your eyes closed.

you clearly didnt watch basketball back than...what are u 12

X12Celtics3
08-02-2012, 11:13 PM
pierce has exactly one chip, no olympics, no national champion.

i've been watching basketball 13 years and i dont ever remember pre big 3 him being a super winner, he couldn't make the playoffs over east dwelles, the two years before they got the big 3, they had jefferson, green, wally szerbiak, ricky davis, rondo, tony allen, delonte, perkins etc. its not like he was devoid of talent.

the early-mid 2000s the east team under the top 3 were atrocious and pierce could still not make the playoffs consistently yet melo made the playoffs every year in a deep western confrence

when a good (not great) player like pierce got lucky with garnet and ray allen he suddenly becomes a HOFer
pre Big-3, Melo was still considered a better player than pierce as far as i remember
he suddenly got put on a pedestal after he got 2 HOFer

2006 Boston Celtics (age in parenthesis):
Rondo (20)/West (23)/Telfair (21)
Szczerbiak (29)/Allen (25)/Ray (22)
Pierce (29)/Green (21)
Jefferson (22)/Gomes (24)/Powe (23)
Perkins (22)/Olowokandi (31)/Ratliff (33)

Rondo was a very, very raw rookie in a very inexperienced back court. Szczerbiak played a whopping 32 games and Tony Allen played 33, leaving Delonte West (in just his second season seeing significant minutes) playing most of the minutes at SG. Jefferson and Perkins are both good, but both were young and inexperienced at the time. Olowokandi played 24 games and Ratliff played 2, making depth down low extremely thin. Are you seriously saying that Pierce should have brought a team like that to the playoffs? I didn't think so... so which of THESE should have made it far in the playoffs?

1998: Kenny Anderson - Paul Pierce - Ron Mercer - Antoine Walker - Tonie Battie
1999: Anderson - Pierce - Adrian Griffin - Walker - Vitaly Potapenko
2000/2001: Anderson - Pierce - Eric Williams - Walker - Battie
2002: Tony Delk - Pierce - Williams - Walker - Battie
2003: Mike James - Pierce - Kedrick Brown - Vin Baker - Mark Blount
2004: Gary Payton (36) - Ricky Davis - Pierce- LaFrentz - Blount
2005: West- Davis - Pierce - LaFrentz - Blount

Not really sure what you expect a single All-Star player to do with THOSE starting lineups :confused:

asap_simba
08-02-2012, 11:27 PM
Nobody can seriously say that the talent surrounding pierce during the pre big 3 era was anywhere near as good as what melo has had. People forget that he had some studs on that nuggets team and couldn't get it done. I'm a big melo fan but there is no comparing the two situations.

b@llhog24
08-03-2012, 12:19 AM
His health has allowed him to be a consistent force... Even when he was almost stabbed to death he came back and played a full 82 game season... I really hope he's given the chance to be the C's all time scoring leader... Avg 74 games a year is OK by me...

As for the Melo comparison... I'll wait till Melo hoists up the hardware... :shrug:

Yeah but the thread is about before he won the chip.


How is it different?

Chronz likes Pierce. Chronz doesn't like Melo.


prime pierce > melo.

Easily.


I'd agree but Pierce played on a few bad Celtics teams while Melo stayed on a 50 win team for most of his career that's the difference but Pierce didn't buy in defensively until they added Garnett and Allen. Melo will play his 1st season with a defensive minded head coach and 80% defensive players, so there is some similarities.



LOL No.

The Celtics were a lottery team and inconsistent for much of the time. Antonie Walker was mostly why they were a deep playoff team.

Pierce didn't buy in defensively until Doc Rivers took over and they added Garnett/Allen.

:puke:


No

Lmao. :laugh2:


You have to actually do something it to be bad at it.



Yes.



Pierce not the better scorer? How about Pierce scoring 2,000+ points in 4 different seasons. Melo only did it once.

Durability


Lmfao you must be what 12-14?

Pierce is a career 102 Drtg defender

Melo 107

Melo has gotten progressively worse as his career has gone on until last season he put up 102 which looks like a flue considering his prior 3 are 111 107 and 108

Pierce had his worst defensive seasons from 2005-2007 with a 105 106 and 107. Other than that he has hovered from 99-103. Including a 99 last season.

Pierce ***** on Melo defensively.

True but Drtg isn't the best stat to use to gauge a players defensive value.

javaid64
08-03-2012, 01:04 AM
2006 Boston Celtics (age in parenthesis):
Rondo (20)/West (23)/Telfair (21)
Szczerbiak (29)/Allen (25)/Ray (22)
Pierce (29)/Green (21)
Jefferson (22)/Gomes (24)/Powe (23)
Perkins (22)/Olowokandi (31)/Ratliff (33)

Rondo was a very, very raw rookie in a very inexperienced back court. Szczerbiak played a whopping 32 games and Tony Allen played 33, leaving Delonte West (in just his second season seeing significant minutes) playing most of the minutes at SG. Jefferson and Perkins are both good, but both were young and inexperienced at the time. Olowokandi played 24 games and Ratliff played 2, making depth down low extremely thin. Are you seriously saying that Pierce should have brought a team like that to the playoffs? I didn't think so... so which of THESE should have made it far in the playoffs?

1998: Kenny Anderson - Paul Pierce - Ron Mercer - Antoine Walker - Tonie Battie
1999: Anderson - Pierce - Adrian Griffin - Walker - Vitaly Potapenko
2000/2001: Anderson - Pierce - Eric Williams - Walker - Battie
2002: Tony Delk - Pierce - Williams - Walker - Battie
2003: Mike James - Pierce - Kedrick Brown - Vin Baker - Mark Blount
2004: Gary Payton (36) - Ricky Davis - Pierce- LaFrentz - Blount
2005: West- Davis - Pierce - LaFrentz - Blount

Not really sure what you expect a single All-Star player to do with THOSE starting lineups :confused:

But my arguement is that those year the east 4-8 seed werent good team at all...if he was as good as people argue you should have cracked the east spots....the talent he had wasn't that much better/worse than team who cracked playoffs back then (and you are severely underrating his talent on his team compared to the what other teams had)....the teams back than were just sooo bad and i find if hard to beleive if pierce was that good like people say he is why he couldn't make the playoffs consistently....as i remember he was on the trading block too for a while before the celtics hit the lottery

and the arguement also can be made for melo.....like how the east sooooo bad... the west back than was monster..even before billups and iverson came...you had martin and nene missing soooooo many games, and the only real talent was miller and camby...and they still backed into the playoffs year in year out....even his rookie season where he made the difference and improved the team by 26 wins..

before pierce got KG and Allen it wasn't even an debate if Melo was better than pierce.

DitchDat
08-03-2012, 06:24 AM
I've been comparing Melo and Pierce before, to me it adds up. High-volume scorers, above-average rebounding numbers, but average to bad team results.

DWhiteTheTruth
08-03-2012, 07:22 AM
how was Pierce an underachiever? when was he SUPPOSED to win but didnt? id say he helped those early/mid 2000 Celtic teams OVERachieve...

BobbyHillSwag
08-03-2012, 07:58 AM
I think they're all in the same league in terms of being able to get their own shot at any possible moment. Ranking them is a waste of time really since they all did at least that one thing great and it really would come down to who you like better.

not really, Iverson, kobe, and mcgrady were far better offensive players than pierce were. Anyone could see that. Melo's game was better than pierce's offensive game too, i dont know where people are getting pierce was better offensively from.

BobbyHillSwag
08-03-2012, 08:01 AM
People have their perceptions already and clearly can't differentiate between pierce pre big 3 and post big 3. I've made this comparison many times before. Pierce did not have a great rep an I would say in his true prime wasn't even considered at the level melo is now.

that's probably because they had greater players in the early 2000's than they did now. pierce was on par with melo when you factor in defense.

Piercefan34
08-03-2012, 08:15 AM
not really, Iverson, kobe, and mcgrady were far better offensive players than pierce were. Anyone could see that. Melo's game was better than pierce's offensive game too, i dont know where people are getting pierce was better offensively from.

Paul Pierce's offensive game was better than Mcgrady.

koreancabbage
08-03-2012, 08:59 AM
Pierce is a better actor.

is it me or he has flopped more since he became part of the big 3, or has it been magnified with the high profile of the team?

Like KG and him being a douche on the court. He's been like that in Minny but magnified with the profile of being a big 3.

koreancabbage
08-03-2012, 09:01 AM
Paul Pierce's offensive game was better than Mcgrady.

agreed but Melo... i mean McGrady has better transition offense and is a better shooter I would say (without looking at stats right now) but Pierce owns in the post and his fakes and setting up his man.

X12Celtics3
08-03-2012, 09:49 AM
But my arguement is that those year the east 4-8 seed werent good team at all...if he was as good as people argue you should have cracked the east spots....the talent he had wasn't that much better/worse than team who cracked playoffs back then (and you are severely underrating his talent on his team compared to the what other teams had)....the teams back than were just sooo bad and i find if hard to beleive if pierce was that good like people say he is why he couldn't make the playoffs consistently....as i remember he was on the trading block too for a while before the celtics hit the lottery

and the arguement also can be made for melo.....like how the east sooooo bad... the west back than was monster..even before billups and iverson came...you had martin and nene missing soooooo many games, and the only real talent was miller and camby...and they still backed into the playoffs year in year out....even his rookie season where he made the difference and improved the team by 26 wins..

before pierce got KG and Allen it wasn't even an debate if Melo was better than pierce.

This is the starting lineup that he brought to the Eastern Conference Finals in 2002 (against the Nets):
Anderson/Pierce/Williams/Walker/Battie

That season Paul Pierce averaged 26 points points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, and 1 block per game. The only other player who averaged double digit points was Walker with 22. The Celtics obviously lost the series, but in game three Paul Pierce led one of the biggest comebacks in NBA history, scoring 19 points in the final 12 minutes to help Boston overcome a 21 point deficit and win 94-90. Paul Pierce ALONE in that quarter scored more points (19) than the entire Nets team (16).

These are the teams that the C's faced that year in the playoffs:
Philadelphie 76ers (3-2 victory)
Snow/Iverson/Harping/Coleman/Mutombo (reigning Eastern Conference Champions)

Detroit Pistons (4-1 victory)
Atkins/Curry/Stackhouse/Robinson/Wallace (50 win team)

New Jersey Nets (2-4 loss)
Kidd/Kittles/Van Horn/Martin/MacCulloch (Richard Jefferson off the bench, top seed in the east)

FOXHOUND
08-03-2012, 09:50 AM
Well, here are Pierce's career stats in the regular season from 1999-2007, courtesy of basketball-reference.com.

G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT%
652 649 37.8 7.7 17.6 .440 1.7 4.7 .360 6.4 8.1 .791

ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1.1 5.4 6.5 3.9 1.7 0.7 3.1 3.0 23.6

Here are his playoff stats before the big 3,

G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK
37 1556 272 665 58 193 306 373 51 316 175 66 42

TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST
149 120 908 .409 .301 .820 42.1 24.5 8.5 4.7


Pierce went from being a bit underrated, because he should have gotten just as much mention as someone like Vince Carter, who only got more due to flashiness, to being EXTREMELY overrated since the big 3 joined.

Pierce isn't close to as good as Melo is, at any point in his career. He's a better 3 point shooter, he's a better passer, and he's a better ball thief and shot blocker. That's where it ends.

Also, the talk about how Pierce adjusted to the big 3 vs Melo adjusting to his current team is absurd.

Amare is NOT Kevin Garnett, even at his 2008 form. Garnett is a great all around player, with a great post game, and is a great passer. Amare at this point is nothing other than a face up finisher. KG can create offense for other players, including Pierce, and Amare cannot.

Ray Allen is also a good passer, and his off the ball movement creates havoc and space for opposing defenses, allowing Pierce to slip around and find wide open shots.

Even Rondo, who was still raw at first, quickly became a good and then great passing PG. By his second season with the big 3 Rondo was averaging over 8 assists per game.

Those Celtics were FAR more talented, especially on offense. Melo has relieved his offensive role, but only when it has made sense. When he had a guy like Billups, who could create shots for himself and others. Even that Nuggets team was pretty dry after those two on the offensive end.

BobbyHillSwag
08-03-2012, 09:53 AM
This is the starting lineup that he brought to the Eastern Conference Finals in 2002 (against the Nets):
Anderson/Pierce/Williams/Walker/Battie

That season Paul Pierce averaged 26 points points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, and 1 block per game. The only other player who averaged double digit points was Walker with 22. The Celtics obviously lost the series, but in game three Paul Pierce led one of the biggest comebacks in NBA history, scoring 19 points in the final 12 minutes to help Boston overcome a 21 point deficit and win 94-90. Paul Pierce ALONE in that quarter scored more points (19) than the entire Nets team (16).

These are the teams that the C's faced that year in the playoffs:
Philadelphie 76ers (3-2 victory)
Snow/Iverson/Harping/Coleman/Mutombo (reigning Eastern Conference Champions)

Detroit Pistons (4-1 victory)
Atkins/Curry/Stackhouse/Robinson/Wallace (50 win team)

New Jersey Nets (2-4 loss)
Kidd/Kittles/Van Horn/Martin/MacCulloch (Richard Jefferson off the bench, top seed in the east)

Lol at that roster, might as well put me on the team with that pathetic **** besides iverson.

Mr_Amaziing
08-03-2012, 10:42 AM
Melo has played with more talent than Pierce ever did before Pierce met with the big 3, during his Denver days he played with Billups,Nene,Martin,Camby. Now he plays with Amare.

And Iverson, Lin

Chronz
08-03-2012, 10:45 AM
How is it different?
Personally its not much of a difference but Pierce had the edge defensively. But yea public perception is pretty much the same.



Paul Pierce's offensive game was better than Mcgrady.
Based on what?

alexander_37
08-03-2012, 10:59 AM
Paul Pierce's offensive game was better than Mcgrady.

No it wasn't...

Dankster
08-03-2012, 11:09 AM
I'll always remember Pre- big 3 Pierce as the guy who was one half of the 3 point bomb squad with his buddy Antoine Walker.

I could still remember a postgame interview Walker had when a media member asked him why he shoots so many 3's. He said because there's no "4 pointers." LOL

Pierce probably wouldn't have been a first ballot HOF if Ray and KG never came to Boston, but I think eventually he would've gotten in. His resume speaks for itself and is more deserving than some of the current members in the HOF.

Da Knicks
08-03-2012, 11:12 AM
Homer alert.

hater alert

rhymeratic
08-03-2012, 11:17 AM
I never thought of Paul Pierce as more than a top 20 player.

Lil Rhody
08-03-2012, 11:20 AM
I'd say Pierce's pre-big3 career is probably the closest comparison to Melo's career arc so far out of any player I've seenI thought I was the only one who felt that way. That's why I asked this Q. The similarities are stunning.

Me and my buddy talk about this a ton. Melo needs a kg type guy to hype up gritty hard nose d. Thank you I'm glad someone else sees this

Piercefan34
08-03-2012, 11:47 AM
Personally its not much of a difference but Pierce had the edge defensively. But yea public perception is pretty much the same.



Based on what?

stats. more consistent. mcgrady had a higher ppg than paul ever did but he also fell off real fast. paul has been the leader of his team his whole career and lead the team in PPG. i know KG came in and was a major leader as well but paul is still the capt.

Da Knicks
08-03-2012, 11:52 AM
2006 Boston Celtics (age in parenthesis):
Rondo (20)/West (23)/Telfair (21)
Szczerbiak (29)/Allen (25)/Ray (22)
Pierce (29)/Green (21)
Jefferson (22)/Gomes (24)/Powe (23)
Perkins (22)/Olowokandi (31)/Ratliff (33)

Rondo was a very, very raw rookie in a very inexperienced back court. Szczerbiak played a whopping 32 games and Tony Allen played 33, leaving Delonte West (in just his second season seeing significant minutes) playing most of the minutes at SG. Jefferson and Perkins are both good, but both were young and inexperienced at the time. Olowokandi played 24 games and Ratliff played 2, making depth down low extremely thin. Are you seriously saying that Pierce should have brought a team like that to the playoffs? I didn't think so... so which of THESE should have made it far in the playoffs?

1998: Kenny Anderson - Paul Pierce - Ron Mercer - Antoine Walker - Tonie Battie
1999: Anderson - Pierce - Adrian Griffin - Walker - Vitaly Potapenko
2000/2001: Anderson - Pierce - Eric Williams - Walker - Battie
2002: Tony Delk - Pierce - Williams - Walker - Battie
2003: Mike James - Pierce - Kedrick Brown - Vin Baker - Mark Blount
2004: Gary Payton (36) - Ricky Davis - Pierce- LaFrentz - Blount
2005: West- Davis - Pierce - LaFrentz - Blount

Not really sure what you expect a single All-Star player to do with THOSE starting lineups :confused:

Mike James couldnt propel him to win means Pierce is a loser.

C-Wick925
08-03-2012, 12:02 PM
My perception of pierce was he is sexy.. now the big 3 he is sexy.. No homo tho

JLynn943
08-03-2012, 12:27 PM
I guess the Melo comparisons are pretty good. Although, I've always felt that Pierce was (and still is) overrated.

The goods
08-03-2012, 12:43 PM
Not like Melo but pretty similarly

Exactly what I was going to say.

alexander_37
08-03-2012, 12:56 PM
Mcgrady even with his ****** later years as 110 Drtg defender is still a career 104 which is really good. Higher than Kobe and Pierce is a career 102 so yes he slightly gets the edge defensively. But offensively in his prime very very few players could stack up to Mcgrady and Pierce is not one of them.

Stinkyoutsider
08-03-2012, 12:58 PM
Maybe they might be similar? I think Melo has always been the main guy on his team though. When Antoine Walker was in his prime for the Celtics, I don't think Paul Pierce was looked at as the main guy and didn't have that pressure to be the best player on the court all the time. He could get away with bad shots because of Walker being with the team.

Once the Celtics lost Walker, it really became Pierce's team and everyone talked about how he struggled some and really didn't have a good deal of help until the big 3 got together.

Melo has always been the man on his team and the best player so when he wasn't able to take his team to the next level in the playoffs, everyone jumped on him. Pierce, for a while, didn't have to deal with that until Walker left.

alexander_37
08-03-2012, 01:28 PM
Melo has always had bunches of talent other than himself. Pierce had nothing after Walker left. Even with Walker there was nothing besides the 2 of them.

b@llhog24
08-03-2012, 01:56 PM
Well, here are Pierce's career stats in the regular season from 1999-2007, courtesy of basketball-reference.com.

G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT%
652 649 37.8 7.7 17.6 .440 1.7 4.7 .360 6.4 8.1 .791

ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1.1 5.4 6.5 3.9 1.7 0.7 3.1 3.0 23.6

Here are his playoff stats before the big 3,

G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK
37 1556 272 665 58 193 306 373 51 316 175 66 42

TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST
149 120 908 .409 .301 .820 42.1 24.5 8.5 4.7


Pierce went from being a bit underrated, because he should have gotten just as much mention as someone like Vince Carter, who only got more due to flashiness, to being EXTREMELY overrated since the big 3 joined.

Pierce isn't close to as good as Melo is, at any point in his career. He's a better 3 point shooter, he's a better passer, and he's a better ball thief and shot blocker. That's where it ends.

Also, the talk about how Pierce adjusted to the big 3 vs Melo adjusting to his current team is absurd.

Amare is NOT Kevin Garnett, even at his 2008 form. Garnett is a great all around player, with a great post game, and is a great passer. Amare at this point is nothing other than a face up finisher. KG can create offense for other players, including Pierce, and Amare cannot.

Ray Allen is also a good passer, and his off the ball movement creates havoc and space for opposing defenses, allowing Pierce to slip around and find wide open shots.

Even Rondo, who was still raw at first, quickly became a good and then great passing PG. By his second season with the big 3 Rondo was averaging over 8 assists per game.

Those Celtics were FAR more talented, especially on offense. Melo has relieved his offensive role, but only when it has made sense. When he had a guy like Billups, who could create shots for himself and others. Even that Nuggets team was pretty dry after those two on the offensive end.

:laugh2:

Chronz
08-03-2012, 02:02 PM
stats. more consistent. mcgrady had a higher ppg than paul ever did but he also fell off real fast. paul has been the leader of his team his whole career and lead the team in PPG. i know KG came in and was a major leader as well but paul is still the capt.
Dont know what KG has to do with this but I get your post.

For their careers there is no doubting Pierce has him beat in terms of longevity, Tmac suffered through too many injuries. I just thought you were talking about their All-Star primes.

FOXHOUND
08-03-2012, 03:19 PM
:laugh2:

I don't understand what's funny, if you look at it Pierce is just a Diet-Melo overall as a player. In Pierce's best statistical season, and really his only really impressive one, his team went 33-49 in the crappy east.

His team wasn't that good, of course, but Doc Rivers was still his coach, and he still had some solid players, although a weak front court. Still, 33-49? In the east? What good was his career best 26.8 PPG on .471, by far his best FG% before the big 3, if all it could lead his team to was 33 wins in the crappy east?

You may have really enjoyed the Paul Pierce years when he was chucking at 41% and 40% with close to 4 TOs per game to score 25 PPG and 23 PPG, but I wasn't all that impressed. The main thing that I have found impressive about Pierce throughout his career is his clutch gene, but even that isn't the greatest. He's had great moments in the clutch, but he's had some really awful game 7s.

Pierce has played in 8 game 7s throughout his career. I'll split them up by pre-Big 3 and post-Big 3.

Pre-Big 3

Vs Indiana, 2005 L
6-13 FG, 0-4 3PT, 7-7 FT, 19 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 stl, 1 blk, 5 TO

Not surprisingly, his team lost. By how much? 27 points. Stephen Jackson went 8-13, 5-6 from 3, 3-5 from the line for 24 points with 5 steals. In his first game 7 he got his behind handed to him by Stephen Jackson? I like Captain Jack and all, but if you're supposed to be THAT GOOD stuff like that doesn't happen. Especially not at home.

Post-Big 3

Vs Atlanta, 2008 W
7-20 for 22 points.

I'll just stop it there. Let's just say he didn't have too much to do with that W. The Hawks scored just 65 points thanks to the monster D created by Thib and enforced on the court by Garnett. Garnett also went 9-13. That W was all KG.

Vs Cleveland, 2008 W
13-23, 4-6 from 3, 11-12 FT for 41 points.

THIS was his great game. Not only did he score throughout the game, but I remember at the end of the game he nailed dagger after dagger while LeBron started chucking up unneeded 3s for some reason. This was an incredible game by Pierce, respect.

Vs Chicago, 2009 W
6-17 for 19 points, 9 REBs and 4 ASTs

This was the almost upset vs rookie Derek Rose's Bulls. There was no KG, but Pierce clearly didn't close this series out himself either, and the Bulls didn't have Deng. Big assist from Ben Gordon going chuck crazy 7-23, and Salmons shooting just 3-12. Struggling with John Salmons?

Vs Orlando, 2009 L
4-13 for 16 points, just 2 REBs

The blown series that disallowed a Finals rematch, although maybe Cleveland would have beaten Boston. Up 3-2, the Celtics lose the last two games. Not only did Pierce stink up game 7 in this 101-82 blowout, but he was just 6-14 for 17 points in game 6. Add insult to injury? This was on their home court. Ouch. In fact, all of these games have been home games so far. Except for the next one...

@ Lakers, 2010 L
5-15 for 18 points, 10 REBs

Way to show up. Although I guess it's good that he rebounded well. Then again, there was a ton of rebounds in this defensive slug fest, so maybe not.

Vs Philly, 2012 W
6-14 for 15 points, 9 REBs

OK, now he's pretty old. He also was banged up a bit. But ouch, it's not like he doesn't get nice feeds from Rondo.

@ Miami, 2012 L
7-18 for 19 points

Well, again he's old now. LeBron James is also a whole lot better. Still banged up a bit as well. Still, not a good game.

This is the Paul Pierce that so many people RAVE about? This is what I mean about him becoming grossly overrated since the Big 3. He won that ring, with great assistance by a couple of HOFs and all, and all of a sudden he's superman. He deserved his Finals MVP, although I think KG deserves a ton of credit as well, but he's still Paul Pierce.

This thread is a good example of favoritism. A lot of people like Pierce, including me, and sometimes this leads to people overlooking the bad days and just focusing on the good. On the other hand a lot of people hate Melo right now, so it's all focusing on the bad while ignoring any good.

FOXHOUND
08-03-2012, 03:20 PM
Dont know what KG has to do with this but I get your post.

For their careers there is no doubting Pierce has him beat in terms of longevity, Tmac suffered through too many injuries. I just thought you were talking about their All-Star primes.

McGrady deserved that MVP in 2001 over Iverson. Carrying that team to the playoffs was nothing short of incredible. That year is a good example, also Kobe's 35 PPG year and Jordan's 37 PPG year, of the MVP criteria being too harsh at times. As long as you bring your team to the playoffs you shouldn't be penalized by team record.

Hawkeye15
08-03-2012, 03:35 PM
No

care to make a case? I can.

Hawkeye15
08-03-2012, 03:36 PM
Lol I can name 5-10 players better then pierce who were tougher to stop at their peak !

Aka
Kobe
McGrady
Iverson just to name a couple

I am simply re-hashing what a lot of players who played against Pierce said during his peak. He had it all, dribble drive, shoot from anywhere, the step back, up and under, could draw fouls, everything. He was for sure one of the toughest individual players to guard when he was in his peak. Many players have repeated this.

Hawkeye15
08-03-2012, 03:39 PM
not really, Iverson, kobe, and mcgrady were far better offensive players than pierce were. Anyone could see that. Melo's game was better than pierce's offensive game too, i dont know where people are getting pierce was better offensively from.

Peak McGrady and Kobe, yes. Iverson, meh, not sure about that. He didn't have the range Pierce had, and Pierce was a better defender then AI.

Edit: On second thought, I think Iverson and Pierce are fairly equal offensive players. Iverson needed more shots to get there, but could carry his team with just his scoring many nights. Pierce wasn't a guy stringing together 30+ point games for a few weeks at at time.

Hawkeye15
08-03-2012, 03:40 PM
Paul Pierce's offensive game was better than Mcgrady.

I don't think it was, when you factor in McGrady's peak crapping on Pierce (or Iverson, Allen, and even being better then Kobe's). McGrady was also a very good distributor, unlike Pierce.

C_Mund
08-03-2012, 04:01 PM
I'd say if you took away a couple rebounds/assists and added a couple more points....Antoine Walker was closer to Melo.
I always felt as if Pierce had a better feel for the whole game of basketball and having plays run through him, instead of running through plays. 'Toine was a chucker and a ballstopper.

Hawkeye15
08-03-2012, 04:13 PM
I'd say if you took away a couple rebounds/assists and added a couple more points....Antoine Walker was closer to Melo.
I always felt as if Pierce had a better feel for the whole game of basketball and having plays run through him, instead of running through plays. 'Toine was a chucker and a ballstopper.

Melo is much better then Toine', who was a complete chucker. I get the comparison I guess, but Melo and Pierce are much closer a comparison then Toine' and Melo.

X12Celtics3
08-03-2012, 04:46 PM
I don't understand what's funny, if you look at it Pierce is just a Diet-Melo overall as a player. In Pierce's best statistical season, and really his only really impressive one, his team went 33-49 in the crappy east.

His team wasn't that good, of course, but Doc Rivers was still his coach, and he still had some solid players, although a weak front court. Still, 33-49? In the east? What good was his career best 26.8 PPG on .471, by far his best FG% before the big 3, if all it could lead his team to was 33 wins in the crappy east?


Team wasn't that good? They had some solid players? That team was one of the worst he played on. Davis and Szczerbiak were okay players, but they played 42 and 32 games that season, respectively. After that, you have Mark Blount (serviceable role player, nothing more, only played 39 games), Delonte West (22 years old), Al Jefferson (21 years old, averaged 8 points and 5 rebounds per game), Raef Lafrentz, Kendrick Perkins (21 years old, terrible offensive player and not nearly as good defensively as he was once KG joined the team), Ryan Gomes (23 year old rookie who was a second round draft pick), Tony Allen (24 years old, only played in 51 games because of a knee injury), Marcus Banks (24 years old), and Gerald Green (20 year old rookie who was VERY raw coming out of high school).

Paul Pierce was playing on a team compromised almost entirely out of kids fresh out of high school or a couple of years of college, and the veterans he DID have surrounding him were either made of glass (Davis, Szczerbiak, Blount) or just not particularly talented (Lafrentz). I don't think that you are really overrating the young guys on the roster. A lot of them turned into good players (Jefferson, West, Perkins, Allen), but at that stage in their careers they were undeveloped and raw.

Another fun fact about that team: The only guys to play seventy games or more were Pierce (79), West (71), Lafrentz (82), Orien Greene (80), and Brian Scalabrine (71). Everybody else was injured for significant amounts of the season, making what was certain to be an ugly season regardless even worse than it should have been.

69centers
08-03-2012, 05:14 PM
I never thought of Paul Pierce as more than a top 20 player.

Name me 19 other players in 2000-2003 who scored more than 2,000 points in a season.

Only 3 scored more than Pierce in 2000-01 (Iverson, Stackhouse, Shaq).

No one scored more points than Pierce in 01-02.

Only 3 scored more than Pierce in 02-03 (Kobe, AI, Tmac).

BobbyHillSwag
08-03-2012, 06:03 PM
McGrady deserved that MVP in 2001 over Iverson. Carrying that team to the playoffs was nothing short of incredible. That year is a good example, also Kobe's 35 PPG year and Jordan's 37 PPG year, of the MVP criteria being too harsh at times. As long as you bring your team to the playoffs you shouldn't be penalized by team record.

you're a joke, you cant be serious. Shaq and duncan? maybe that's a good argument. Mcgrady has absolutely no argument for mvp that year. iverson's team wasnt that great either. with mutumbo they got even worse.

BobbyHillSwag
08-03-2012, 06:06 PM
Peak McGrady and Kobe, yes. Iverson, meh, not sure about that. He didn't have the range Pierce had, and Pierce was a better defender then AI.

Edit: On second thought, I think Iverson and Pierce are fairly equal offensive players. Iverson needed more shots to get there, but could carry his team with just his scoring many nights. Pierce wasn't a guy stringing together 30+ point games for a few weeks at at time.

I dont think pierce could even if he tried. He worked to get good shot. Iverson took any shot he could, when iverson had the luxury to take good shots he shot way better. Also, pierce wasnt much more efficient than iverson anyway, just like mcgrady and bryant.

BobbyHillSwag
08-03-2012, 06:12 PM
Name me 19 other players in 2000-2003 who scored more than 2,000 points in a season.

Only 3 scored more than Pierce in 2000-01 (Iverson, Stackhouse, Shaq).

No one scored more points than Pierce in 01-02.

Only 3 scored more than Pierce in 02-03 (Kobe, AI, Tmac).

THis, he was absolutely a top 20 player atleast top 15 and this with the league stacked as hell. Today he would probably a top 10 player, the league in the early 2000's was stacked to hell, but with pf and sg mainly.

Hawkeye15
08-03-2012, 06:19 PM
I dont think pierce could even if he tried. He worked to get good shot. Iverson took any shot he could, when iverson had the luxury to take good shots he shot way better. Also, pierce wasnt much more efficient than iverson anyway, just like mcgrady and bryant.

McGrady was light years more efficient then AI dude. Kobe as well. Sorry, Iverson doesn't even belong in the same tier as those two, McGrady's career being cut short by injuries hurts him, but his peak basketball was easily better then anything AI ever put up. Kobe is Kobe. Iverson doesn't even come close to him.

Pierce and AI are pretty much equal to me, Pierce may even be higher in all time rankings in reality, seeing as he experienced team success and had far better longevity.

You know you overrate Iverson. Or at least you should know. Greatest chucker the game has ever seen.

Hawkeye15
08-03-2012, 06:23 PM
you're a joke, you cant be serious. Shaq and duncan? maybe that's a good argument. Mcgrady has absolutely no argument for mvp that year. iverson's team wasnt that great either. with mutumbo they got even worse.

stop with the insults right off the bat please.

Iverson was better by the slimest margin in 00-01', for sure. I still think Shaq or TD were better.

McGrady had 3 seasons better then anything AI put up, with 00-01' being his best year by far (Iverson that is).

BobbyHillSwag
08-03-2012, 06:25 PM
McGrady was light years more efficient then AI dude. Kobe as well. Sorry, Iverson doesn't even belong in the same tier as those two, McGrady's career being cut short by injuries hurts him, but his peak basketball was easily better then anything AI ever put up. Kobe is Kobe. Iverson doesn't even come close to him.

Pierce and AI are pretty much equal to me, Pierce may even be higher in all time rankings in reality, seeing as he experienced team success and had far better longevity.

You know you overrate Iverson. Or at least you should know. Greatest chucker the game has ever seen.


I literally stopped reading after that, im serious, i felt no need to even read anything after that.

heyman321
08-03-2012, 06:30 PM
I'd agree but Pierce played on a few bad Celtics teams while Melo stayed on a 50 win team for most of his career that's the difference but Pierce didn't buy in defensively until they added Garnett and Allen. Melo will play his 1st season with a defensive minded head coach and 80% defensive players, so there is some similarities.



LOL No.

The Celtics were a lottery team and inconsistent for much of the time. Antonie Walker was mostly why they were a deep playoff team.

Pierce didn't buy in defensively until Doc Rivers took over and they added Garnett/Allen.

Not sure if serious....

Hawkeye15
08-03-2012, 06:43 PM
I literally stopped reading after that, im serious, i felt no need to even read anything after that.

well, study up on the game, and come back when you have learned what efficiency means.

Iverson's peak does not stack up with either Kobe or McGrady's peak. Not even close when we also factor in those two guarded someone.

BobbyHillSwag
08-03-2012, 06:53 PM
well, study up on the game, and come back when you have learned what efficiency means.
Iverson's peak does not stack up with either Kobe or McGrady's peak. Not even close when we also factor in those two guarded someone.

I think you need to read the book "everything isn't black and white" it might teach you something about analyzing basketball. :D

balla4life22
08-03-2012, 07:32 PM
no offense FOXHOUND but you're pretty much off on EVERYTHING that you've said.

Hawkeye15
08-03-2012, 08:05 PM
I think you need to read the book "everything isn't black and white" it might teach you something about analyzing basketball. :D

meh, I am comfortable at where I am at. Iverson was a great scorer, but was inefficient in doing so outside a couple of seasons, and was pretty overrated by his fans. Time will show I am right, as his fanboys get older.

Blazers23
08-03-2012, 08:21 PM
Paul Pierce is like a dumber version of Kobe/Ron Artest. He loses his cool sometimes but is a good player.

b@llhog24
08-03-2012, 10:26 PM
I don't understand what's funny,

It's funny because you said it "isn't close" especially since the Pierce is actually the superior player. I've seen some damn good arguments for Melo, but to say it isn't close kind of makes you look like an *******. No offense.


if you look at it Pierce is just a Diet-Melo overall as a player. In Pierce's best statistical season, and really his only really impressive one, his team went 33-49 in the crappy east.

The fact that you think his 05-06 season was the only impressive one tells me that you really don't know what you're talking about. Let alone attributing the record that his TEAM produced against him. Basically if you took PP off of that team they would've won ten less games.


His team wasn't that good, of course, but Doc Rivers was still his coach, and he still had some solid players, although a weak front court. Still, 33-49? In the east? What good was his career best 26.8 PPG on .471, by far his best FG% before the big 3, if all it could lead his team to was 33 wins in the crappy east?

Coaching is one of the most overrated aspects of basketball, Phil Jackson quite frankly couldn't coach that team to a much better record. And his 26.8ppg was basically the difference between them being, 33-49 or 22-60.


You may have really enjoyed the Paul Pierce years when he was chucking at 41% and 40% with close to 4 TOs per game to score 25 PPG and 23 PPG, but I wasn't all that impressed. The main thing that I have found impressive about Pierce throughout his career is his clutch gene, but even that isn't the greatest. He's had great moments in the clutch, but he's had some really awful game 7s.

Melo "chucks" more than Paul Pierce so I get your premise.


Pierce has played in 8 game 7s throughout his career. I'll split them up by pre-Big 3 and post-Big 3.

Pre-Big 3

Vs Indiana, 2005 L
6-13 FG, 0-4 3PT, 7-7 FT, 19 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 stl, 1 blk, 5 TO

Not surprisingly, his team lost. By how much? 27 points. Stephen Jackson went 8-13, 5-6 from 3, 3-5 from the line for 24 points with 5 steals. In his first game 7 he got his behind handed to him by Stephen Jackson? I like Captain Jack and all, but if you're supposed to be THAT GOOD stuff like that doesn't happen. Especially not at home.

Post-Big 3

Vs Atlanta, 2008 W
7-20 for 22 points.

I'll just stop it there. Let's just say he didn't have too much to do with that W. The Hawks scored just 65 points thanks to the monster D created by Thib and enforced on the court by Garnett. Garnett also went 9-13. That W was all KG.

Vs Cleveland, 2008 W
13-23, 4-6 from 3, 11-12 FT for 41 points.

THIS was his great game. Not only did he score throughout the game, but I remember at the end of the game he nailed dagger after dagger while LeBron started chucking up unneeded 3s for some reason. This was an incredible game by Pierce, respect.

Vs Chicago, 2009 W
6-17 for 19 points, 9 REBs and 4 ASTs

This was the almost upset vs rookie Derek Rose's Bulls. There was no KG, but Pierce clearly didn't close this series out himself either, and the Bulls didn't have Deng. Big assist from Ben Gordon going chuck crazy 7-23, and Salmons shooting just 3-12. Struggling with John Salmons?

Vs Orlando, 2009 L
4-13 for 16 points, just 2 REBs

The blown series that disallowed a Finals rematch, although maybe Cleveland would have beaten Boston. Up 3-2, the Celtics lose the last two games. Not only did Pierce stink up game 7 in this 101-82 blowout, but he was just 6-14 for 17 points in game 6. Add insult to injury? This was on their home court. Ouch. In fact, all of these games have been home games so far. Except for the next one...

@ Lakers, 2010 L
5-15 for 18 points, 10 REBs

Way to show up. Although I guess it's good that he rebounded well. Then again, there was a ton of rebounds in this defensive slug fest, so maybe not.

Vs Philly, 2012 W
6-14 for 15 points, 9 REBs

OK, now he's pretty old. He also was banged up a bit. But ouch, it's not like he doesn't get nice feeds from Rondo.

@ Miami, 2012 L
7-18 for 19 points

Well, again he's old now. LeBron James is also a whole lot better. Still banged up a bit as well. Still, not a good game.

So Pierce is not "great" in game 7's, Lol Melo was to busy getting sweeped to play in one.


This is the Paul Pierce that so many people RAVE about? This is what I mean about him becoming grossly overrated since the Big 3. He won that ring, with great assistance by a couple of HOFs and all, and all of a sudden he's superman. He deserved his Finals MVP, although I think KG deserves a ton of credit as well, but he's still Paul Pierce.

Yep.


This thread is a good example of favoritism. A lot of people like Pierce, including me, and sometimes this leads to people overlooking the bad days and just focusing on the good. On the other hand a lot of people hate Melo right now, so it's all focusing on the bad while ignoring any good.

I like Pierce, but I love Melo. Doesn't mean I have to be irrational about it.

alexander_37
08-04-2012, 12:53 AM
I literally stopped reading after that, im serious, i felt no need to even read anything after that.

:facepalm: Homer. Use stats not insults.

BobbyHillSwag
08-04-2012, 03:29 AM
:facepalm: Homer. Use stats not insults.

you are the only person that used an insult. I didn't insult the man in anyway. " Don't look around son, check yourself."

Leftcoast_yg
08-04-2012, 03:33 AM
At one point I considered him and Kobe the best players in the NBA before lebron was in the picture, he was an all-around player.

CyborgMushroom
08-04-2012, 03:38 AM
Hated him, Still hate him.

Hate his face.

agureghian
08-04-2012, 03:41 AM
rxn before big three: who?
rxn after big three: crying actor

CyborgMushroom
08-04-2012, 03:44 AM
Even though he won his championship, there is that one thing that he will always be remembered for. Everyone already knows what this is.

JLynn943
08-04-2012, 03:53 AM
I literally stopped reading after that, im serious, i felt no need to even read anything after that.

Don't bother. People will never recognize that Iverson had little choice but to take bad shots on those 76ers teams. No one else was a threat to score. There was no way he was going to be able to shoot as well as he should have. All the proof you need to know that he was limited offensively by who he played with is to look at his performance in Denver, where his actual best season was, imo.

Anyway, I'd personally never put Pierce above Iverson. They played the same role (primary scorer) on two pretty mediocre teams in the early 00s, but Iverson was able to carry that team to the finals while Pierce couldn't do that until he had two future hall of fame players join up with him.

Leftcoast_yg
08-04-2012, 04:38 AM
Don't bother. People will never recognize that Iverson had little choice but to take bad shots on those 76ers teams. No one else was a threat to score. There was no way he was going to be able to shoot as well as he should have. All the proof you need to know that he was limited offensively by who he played with is to look at his performance in Denver, where his actual best season was, imo.

Anyway, I'd personally never put Pierce above Iverson. They played the same role (primary scorer) on two pretty mediocre teams in the early 00s, but Iverson was able to carry that team to the finals while Pierce couldn't do that until he had two future hall of fame players join up with him.

But pierce was way more versatile, can shoot, post up, play off the ball and is a good rebounder. I'm a die hard Laker fan and he's a rival but you can't deny dedication to be the best. I hate pierce as a celtic but you gotta admire his heart to be the best of his team even though ray and kg were there he was the best player on the team.

X12Celtics3
08-04-2012, 09:20 AM
Don't bother. People will never recognize that Iverson had little choice but to take bad shots on those 76ers teams. No one else was a threat to score. There was no way he was going to be able to shoot as well as he should have. All the proof you need to know that he was limited offensively by who he played with is to look at his performance in Denver, where his actual best season was, imo.

Anyway, I'd personally never put Pierce above Iverson. They played the same role (primary scorer) on two pretty mediocre teams in the early 00s, but Iverson was able to carry that team to the finals while Pierce couldn't do that until he had two future hall of fame players join up with him.

But in the only playoff meeting between Iverson's 76er's and Pierce's Celtics prior to the Big Three, the C's beat the 76ers on their way to the ECF. Neither Pierce nor Iverson ever actually won anything, Iverson just made it a step farther (and then lost to Pierce's team the next year).

I don't really think that you can say one player is better than the other just based on playoff success. Also, to the guy who said that the 76ers team was awful, it really wasn't. In 2000-2001 Mutombo was Defensive Player of the Year, McKie was the Sixth Man of the year, and Brown was Coach of the Year. That whole unit remained intact, and the next season Iverson had five other players on his team who averaged double digits in points: Coleman (15), McKie (12), Snow (12), Harping (12), and Mutombo (12). Pierce had just three: Walker (22), Rodney Rogers (11), and Kenny Anderson 10). Pierce had a better scorer supporting him than anybody on the 76ers behind Iverson, but Iverson had more role players who were regular contributers on offense.

BobbyHillSwag
08-04-2012, 09:42 AM
But pierce was way more versatile, can shoot, post up, play off the ball and is a good rebounder. I'm a die hard Laker fan and he's a rival but you can't deny dedication to be the best. I hate pierce as a celtic but you gotta admire his heart to be the best of his team even though ray and kg were there he was the best player on the team.

he might be more versatile but he's not elite at the at most of the stuff. Melo is better at all the things you mentioned except shooting from 3. Alot, of people are more versatile than iverson he was in a pg's body. He was super elite at what he did though and that puts him over most players. Contrary to popular belief iverson wasnt a bad defender till after around 2004, until then he was an ok defender not even anywhere close to a liability like some people like to lie about.