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View Full Version : Why were the Bulls under .500 with MJ?



Chronz
07-28-2012, 07:57 PM
In terms of immediate impact, was MJ overrated or simply overmatched? Why did his teams fair so poorly with him compared to some other legends.

MJ joined a 27-55 team and improved their win total by 11 wins, 38-44. The next year he was injured but the year after that they were still 40-44. It wasnt until Y4 that MJ finally got above .500.


By comparison, a rookie Kareem took a 27-55 team and won 56 games the year they added him. A 20 year old Shaq took a 21 win team to 41 wins and 50 wins the following year. Bird improved a 29 win team to 61 wins. Wilt and Russ both had tremendous impacts their first year but that was a completely different era.


Is the explanation for this a sign of anything?

PhillyFaninLA
07-28-2012, 08:06 PM
Because you need more then 1 player.

MJ become special when he had some talent around him and became all time when he had a second good player and great role players. The other players in the league where also much better when he was drafted then today and the rules where different.

BobbyHillSwag
07-28-2012, 08:10 PM
what philly fan said. It just depends how the players around mj fit. This is why I shake my head at the thought of lebron even making a team like bobcats a playoff team. They wouldn't really fit around him like that cleveland team did. Some people think every thing is black and white though(not saying op). Put mj in the right situation, where players fit around him like they did the other players you mentioned and he improves them the same way.

hidalgo
07-28-2012, 08:32 PM
his roster just really sucked, & their game plan & coaching sucked. he played amazing though. 86 he missed the whole season basically with a broken foot, so he really just had the 2 losing records. the roster just really stank. i bet all those guys named had better rosters to work with, but props to them for really good starts anyway. it wasn't quite that easy with the mess the Bulls were at first. he still got them to the playoffs though

PurpleJesus
07-28-2012, 08:40 PM
pretty simple explanation...basketball is a team game. Even having the greates player ever on your team is not enough alone. That is why it is unfare to judge players like Kevin Love based on his teams record.

StarvingKnick22
07-28-2012, 08:48 PM
its a team sport. MJ is the G.O.A.T but he isnt God.

valade16
07-28-2012, 09:07 PM
First off those 38 wins were still good enough for the playoffs, and second the only other player on his team with over .1 WS/48 was Orlando Woolridge. Outside of them the team was terrible.

Bird had several other high impact players that were added his rookie year.

KAJ's rookie year he had 4 OTHER players besides himself who had above a .1 WS/48 and 2 others at .090 and better. Heck, his WS/48 that years was .187 while MJ's his rookie year was well above .2.

Shaq's rookie year likewise had 4 teammates above .1 WS/48.

To put it in perspective LeBron gets crap for how bad his teamsnwere but his team that lost the championship to the spurs had 5 players over .1 WS/48 and another 3 at .097 and .098...

I know one stat doesn't tell the whole story but in this quick snapshot the reason becomes very apparent.

The rest of his team was terrible...

bearadonisdna
07-28-2012, 09:13 PM
Because back then Jordan was more focused on dominating offensively and defensively more than winning.

the_jon
07-28-2012, 09:15 PM
Because you need more then 1 player.

MJ become special when he had some talent around him and became all time when he had a second good player and great role players. The other players in the league where also much better when he was drafted then today and the rules where different.
haha no

Puck017
07-28-2012, 09:15 PM
Some players tend to develop over the first few years of their career and don't just enter the league as one of the NBA's premiere players.

PhillyFaninLA
07-28-2012, 09:27 PM
haha no


Care to give facts on why you think my point is wrong or just be arrogant and smug.

Are you man enough or intelligent enough to defend your view and not just be smug?

IndyRealist
07-28-2012, 09:29 PM
In Kevin Durant's rookie season, they went 20-62. In his sophomore season, they went 23-59. There's a lot more to basketball than one player's greatness.

Sinestro
07-28-2012, 09:31 PM
Less teams back then too, talent wasn't as spread out

IndyRealist
07-28-2012, 09:31 PM
Oh and the Sonics went 31-51 prior to drafting Durant. They actually lost 11 more games with him.

D Roses Bulls
07-28-2012, 09:51 PM
I really do not have to add more then what was already said here. Jordan played actually 2 full seasons. The East was pretty damn stacked. Remember there was fewer teams back then so you played the real good teams more than you would now a days. Jordan was basically a scorer back in those days. He wasn't the all around Michael then. Larry Bird called him god in one playoff game, doesn't actually mean he was god. When your second best player your first couple year in the league is Orlando woolridge, and the talent level on that team dramatically drops after that, that should be explanation enough.

theheatles
07-28-2012, 09:53 PM
pippen is the goat?

Chronz
07-28-2012, 10:15 PM
Oh and the Sonics went 31-51 prior to drafting Durant. They actually lost 11 more games with him.

But thats a case of immense roster turnover as they gave up Lewis and Ray Allen. That and Durant was a teen who wasnt very good his first 2 years.

Chronz
07-28-2012, 10:30 PM
Because you need more then 1 player.

MJ become special when he had some talent around him and became all time when he had a second good player and great role players. The other players in the league where also much better when he was drafted then today and the rules where different.
But 1 player can make a big impact in this sport, why did those other teams experience such leaps?


First off those 38 wins were still good enough for the playoffs, and second the only other player on his team with over .1 WS/48 was Orlando Woolridge. Outside of them the team was terrible.

Bird had several other high impact players that were added his rookie
year.

But if all those teams were terrible before acquiring the star, why is MJ so unique. Im more interested in hearing the bolded point you made.

Maybe those teams experienced significant boosts outside their star player, Im just wondering how much of those boosts were a result of the star player himself or simply his supporting cast maturing/changing altogether.


KAJ's rookie year he had 4 OTHER players besides himself who had above a .1 WS/48 and 2 others at .090 and better. Heck, his WS/48 that years was .187 while MJ's his rookie year was well above .2.

Looking at the rosters it does seem like an entirely different team from the year prior. But isnt it possible their rate of WS was artificially enhanced by Kareems presence, particularly defensively? Like Flynn Robinson had never sported such a high WinShares before, all of sudden hes on a great defensive team and he experiences career highs.


Shaq's rookie year likewise had 4 teammates above .1 WS/48.

What do you make of the fact that the year before Shaq none of them could top that mark?


The rest of his team was terrible...
Probably right, moreso than any other star I listed. Just getting some outside perspective.

Chronz
07-28-2012, 10:31 PM
I really do not have to add more then what was already said here. Jordan played actually 2 full seasons.
That was said in the OP.

lakers4sho
07-28-2012, 10:50 PM
kevin loughery was a horrible coach. once they got someone decent (doug collins), the bulls record was at worst 40-42, in 1987, not bad actually.

0nekhmer
07-28-2012, 10:58 PM
if one player can't really make a difference, why did the Cavs go from the best record to the worst after Lebron left? While MJ's bulls did decent the year after he left?

- coming from an anti Lebron-Heat fan

Hellcrooner
07-28-2012, 10:58 PM
it only proves that 1984 Jordan was all bout ME and not bout TEAM.
He didnt make his teamates better.
Worse he butted heads with Woolridge instead of working togheter for wins.

lakers4sho
07-28-2012, 11:00 PM
if one player can't really make a difference, why did the Cavs go from the best record to the worst after Lebron left? While MJ's bulls did decent the year after he left?

- coming from an anti Lebron-Heat fan

because that team was built to complement lebron's skillsets. a foot without the rest of the body isn't worth anything.

D Roses Bulls
07-28-2012, 11:09 PM
it only proves that 1984 Jordan was all bout ME and not bout TEAM.
He didnt make his teamates better.
Worse he butted heads with Woolridge instead of working togheter for wins.

what rookie does? Jordan was a player ahead of his time coming into that league and the league hadn't quite caught up with that style of play. So exactly how is he suppose to make his teammates better his rookie year when your for one, trying to get use to the style the NBA plays with, two, getting use to playing with your teammates remember as a rookie, not a veteran. Also, again look who he played with. I don't think anyone besides if god came down and put on a pair of sneakers could of made any of those guys better. Those guys were horrible. Again MJ is not god. By the way, Jordan butted heads with a lot of teammates and because of that and the success he had, got guys like luc longley, brian williams, jud buschler and ect pretty nice contracts with other teams before and after he retired. I really never seen so many mediocre bench players and should be bench players get so many pretty nice contracts from different teams like the way some of these former bulls players got because of one man.

Puck017
07-28-2012, 11:16 PM
In terms of immediate impact, was MJ overrated or simply overmatched? Why did his teams fair so poorly with him compared to some other legends.

MJ joined a 27-55 team and improved their win total by 11 wins, 38-44. The next year he was injured but the year after that they were still 40-44. It wasnt until Y4 that MJ finally got above .500.


By comparison, a rookie Kareem took a 27-55 team and won 56 games the year they added him. A 20 year old Shaq took a 21 win team to 41 wins and 50 wins the following year. Bird improved a 29 win team to 61 wins. Wilt and Russ both had tremendous impacts their first year but that was a completely different era.


Is the explanation for this a sign of anything?

One could conclude based solely on the before mentioned data that a players height has a direct impact on how many wins they can improve their respective teams in their rookie season.

Conversely if one added the the cases of Kevin Garnett and Kevin Durant, they could conclude that age also has an impact on how much a player can improve a team. The data indicates that a player have a minimum age of 20 greatly increases their chance on having a major impact on how much their teams improve.

Ultimately one would require a larger data sample to further postulate these patterns.

RaiderLakersA's
07-28-2012, 11:30 PM
It's this simple...a 2 guard cannot truly carry your team or make as big an impact right away as an equally gifted forward or center.

Further, A 2 guard doesn't automatically make other players better, which explains why most of the guys that played with Jordan his first few seasons had such abyssmal stats.

More than any other player on the floor a 2 guard needs to be in the right system, or it won't work.

MJ is the goat for many reasons, but far too little credit is given to the perfect synergy of coaching, system, and players alongside him. If just one of those elements is off, we'd be talking about him in a different light.

Beantownsboss
07-28-2012, 11:38 PM
Its a team sport

Hotone1401
07-28-2012, 11:41 PM
Wasn't MJ injured his sophomore season? Not sure exactly when but he did miss 65 games one season due I a broken foot. It was also common knowledge that the Bulls front office limited his minutes a bit hoping to have a better chance at the lottery.

IKnowHoops
07-29-2012, 01:25 AM
if one player can't really make a difference, why did the Cavs go from the best record to the worst after Lebron left? While MJ's bulls did decent the year after he left?

- coming from an anti Lebron-Heat fan

Nobody can impact a game like Lebron. That includes Mike. Mike can get himself off better than anyone, but lebron gets himself and his team off better than anyone, all while beasting anyone and everyone at every position on the court. Lebron is one of a Kind. Nobody can get buckets like Mike though. Id take both and go undefeated.

John Walls Era
07-29-2012, 01:28 AM
Because they lost more than they won... grade 1 math.

bearadonisdna
07-29-2012, 03:38 PM
Nobody can impact a game like Lebron. That includes Mike. Mike can get himself off better than anyone, but lebron gets himself and his team off better than anyone, all while beasting anyone and everyone at every position on the court. Lebron is one of a Kind. Nobody can get buckets like Mike though. Id take both and go undefeated.

Lebrons effect on a game is baby stuff compared to jordans.

Jordan beasted everyone on the court rather handily.

bagwell368
07-29-2012, 03:54 PM
MJ was a nasty offensive player right out of the gate. His D could be spectacular but he didn't have a grip on it right away (consistentency). Also his teammates and coach were sub standard.

MJ being the competitive/proud guy he was started to figure out what was missing, and started to adjust his game a bit, and increase his drive to win; plus he got Pippen, Jackson and usable players such as "Mr. Bill" Cartright.

The Celts and Lakers started to get old and sputter. Pistons were only able to hold together that team a few years. Hakeem was banished in Houston. Malone was in Utah, etc. and the Bulls always seemed to have one more answer. MJ by then had become the ultimate closer and GOAT candidate.

In a league with more super teams like the one he came into, he may have been doomed to getting a single title at the end once he got dealt to one of these teams. Hard to say for certain, but that's what I think. Bird and Magic could have ended up the same way too.

NJBASEBALL22
07-29-2012, 04:04 PM
In terms of immediate impact, was MJ overrated or simply overmatched? Why did his teams fair so poorly with him compared to some other legends.

MJ joined a 27-55 team and improved their win total by 11 wins, 38-44. The next year he was injured but the year after that they were still 40-44. It wasnt until Y4 that MJ finally got above .500.


By comparison, a rookie Kareem took a 27-55 team and won 56 games the year they added him. A 20 year old Shaq took a 21 win team to 41 wins and 50 wins the following year. Bird improved a 29 win team to 61 wins. Wilt and Russ both had tremendous impacts their first year but that was a completely different era.


Is the explanation for this a sign of anything?

Well, there are a couple reasons but mainly no rebounding. Dave Greenwood who was a solid big (avg. 14 pts/9.5 rebs fpr his first 6 years) saw his minutes and numbers plummet with the exact arrival of MJ. Orlando Woolridge was a solid scoring big but soft on the boards. Steve Johnson, there other big, was soft on the boards too.

The Bulls traded promising rookie Mitch Wiggens who was a good all-around player and very good wing defend for big man depth but the trade didn't pay off.

Put it this way. With MJ's arrival, his rookie year, he led the team in scoring, rebs, assists, steals and was second in blocks and threes.

They also didn't have any guards that could create until MJ. There perimeter scoring was very bad too, obviously with the exception of MJ. No outside shooters. MJ really only had one or two other guys that he could give the ball to.

wesso2008
07-29-2012, 04:13 PM
As i recall the G.O.A.T. Michael Jordan isss afterall....human. Ooh and btw he was YOUNG when the Bulls were bad in the late 80's. I dont believe you make or break your career in your first 4-5 years. Plus MJ was injured in his second year. If u didn't notice, after he got seasoned during the late 80's, he was a BEAST. Then in '91 u kno what happened. 1st ring of MANY more to come. He didn't do it all on his own he had scottie, grant, paxson, n company...but theres no doubt in my mind that if MJ wasn't on the Bulls, Chicago would still be looking for their first title. The Bulls weren't technically built for an MJ type of player when he came into the league so it's no wonder MJ put up his numbers but no one else really did. It also took time to build around MJ. It wasn't until the Bulls traded for Pippen and them getting Horace Grant that they started making noise in the league.

Tymathee
07-29-2012, 07:34 PM
In terms of immediate impact, was MJ overrated or simply overmatched? Why did his teams fair so poorly with him compared to some other legends.

MJ joined a 27-55 team and improved their win total by 11 wins, 38-44. The next year he was injured but the year after that they were still 40-44. It wasnt until Y4 that MJ finally got above .500.


By comparison, a rookie Kareem took a 27-55 team and won 56 games the year they added him. A 20 year old Shaq took a 21 win team to 41 wins and 50 wins the following year. Bird improved a 29 win team to 61 wins. Wilt and Russ both had tremendous impacts their first year but that was a completely different era.


Is the explanation for this a sign of anything?

Because Centers can impact a game in more ways than a wing player can.

Defensively a wing player can really only impact a wing player, or even a point guard, but a center can effectively shut down any drives to the hoop turning the other team into jump shooters and allowing the other 4 players to play tighter defense.

offensively, a center can make his team into better jump shooters and take shot blockers out of the game. Because the center is the offense in the middle, the rest of the team can focus on shooting and getting easy shots and if the other team has a shot blocker at center, then that player is generally going nto be on ur offensive center, taking away what he does best.

It's why the whole dwight howard drama is going on, Dwight Howard affects more on a team than LeBron James.

dh144498
07-29-2012, 11:35 PM
before i clicked on this thread I had a feeling someone was going to bring up Lebron.

smiddy012
07-30-2012, 01:05 AM
Nobody can impact a game like Lebron. That includes Mike. Mike can get himself off better than anyone, but lebron gets himself and his team off better than anyone, all while beasting anyone and everyone at every position on the court. Lebron is one of a Kind. Nobody can get buckets like Mike though. Id take both and go undefeated.

:laugh:

DaBear
07-30-2012, 01:25 AM
if one player can't really make a difference, why did the Cavs go from the best record to the worst after Lebron left? While MJ's bulls did decent the year after he left?

- coming from an anti Lebron-Heat fan

I think an emotional let down had a little to do with it. MJ's Bulls had already won 3 rings, so the confidence was there. LeBron left Cleveland in the dust.

Hawkeye15
07-30-2012, 01:59 AM
The Bulls were still trying to feature Woolridge, and they butted heads as the leader. Nature happened.

miller
07-30-2012, 08:11 AM
I think the fact that there were less teams in the NBA at the time he was drafted contributed to his taking longer for the Bulls to become a .500 team. Off the top of my head, there's no Heat, Twolves, Hornets, Raptors, Grizzlies or Bobcats in the league when he is drafted. This in my opinion means that the talent is less diluted (even though international players hadn't really broken into the NBA yet) so its going to be harder to turn a team into a winner.

JordansBulls
07-30-2012, 11:14 AM
Jordan was playing in the 80's against stacked and loaded teams in the East. When MJ went to the Bulls the Bulls had the 2nd worst record in the league before he came. He went to an organization that was known for losing and known for not having many fans.
MJ took the team from the bottom to the top and built a dynasty.


Jordan was 2nd in the league in 1985 in Win Shares and PER, behind the League MVP Larry Bird, meaning only Larry Bird would have done better than MJ did on the Bulls that season. In 1987 MJ led the league in PER and Win Shares, meaning no one else would have done as good on the Bulls as he did.
1986 well he was injured 64 games and when he did play he was only allowed to play 7 minutes a half.


on why the Bulls from 1986 to 1987 didn't improve by more than 10 games.


Or maybe the Bulls just completed tore apart their rosters and returned in 1987 without their 21ppg, 16ppg, 16ppg and 14 ppg scorers from 1986 leaving Jordan with Charles Oakley as his second option....

I guess it wouldn't have an impact to take 67 ppg out of your lineup when you have Oakley and Paxson.


In fact the 1987 Bulls were predicted to win only 25 games that year.

CBS Intro 1986 Christmas Bulls at Knicks @ 2:05 mark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52D6FDJDCvc)



"Early on, people were saying Michael Jordan didn't have a team mentality. That was because he didn't have a team."- Larry Bird, When the Game Was Ours


http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/JordantransformedtheBullstogreatnessbyLarryBird.jp g



Celtics Legend Larry Bird had never seen on player transform a team like Jordan had. "Even at this stage of his career," Bird raved, "he's doing more than I ever did."


And this is rookie Jordan because as you see later in the paragraph it says on Jan 14, MJ got the first triple double in Bulls history with 35 points, 15 assists and 14 rebounds.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198501140CHI.html


1989 Spurs added Terry Cummings, who put up 23/8/3 the previous year with the Bucks. They also added a rookie Sean Elliott. And Mo Cheeks (11/3/6) and Rod Strickland (14/4/8), though each missed half the season.

1980 Celtics added ML Carr, who put up 19/7/3, led the league in steals, and was 2nd team All-Defense the previous year with the Pistons.
Not to mention this was a franchise that had won 2 titles in the last 6 years so it was already known for winning. (Cedric Maxwell led the team in Win Shares in the season and led in PER and Win Shares in the playoffs)

1970 Bucks added Bob rookie Dandridge, who put up 13/8/4 in his rookie year. He was a 4x All-Star in his career.

1980 Lakers added Spencer Haywood, who put up 21/8/2 the previous year with the Knicks and Jazz. They also added Jim Chones, who put up 13/10/2 the previous year with the Cavs. And they got a full season out of Michael Cooper, who had played only 3 games the previous year.

1984 Rockets had the #1 pick the year before in Sampson who was an allstar his first 4 years in the league and who averaged 22/10 and 2 in Hakeem's first year.

MrFastBreak
07-30-2012, 02:39 PM
One could conclude based solely on the before mentioned data that a players height has a direct impact on how many wins they can improve their respective teams in their rookie season.

Conversely if one added the the cases of Kevin Garnett and Kevin Durant, they could conclude that age also has an impact on how much a player can improve a team. The data indicates that a player have a minimum age of 20 greatly increases their chance on having a major impact on how much their teams improve.

Ultimately one would require a larger data sample to further postulate these patterns.

I'd like to see this data.

BULLSFAN0810
07-30-2012, 04:05 PM
In terms of immediate impact, was MJ overrated or simply overmatched? Why did his teams fair so poorly with him compared to some other legends.

MJ joined a 27-55 team and improved their win total by 11 wins, 38-44. The next year he was injured but the year after that they were still 40-44. It wasnt until Y4 that MJ finally got above .500.


By comparison, a rookie Kareem took a 27-55 team and won 56 games the year they added him. A 20 year old Shaq took a 21 win team to 41 wins and 50 wins the following year. Bird improved a 29 win team to 61 wins. Wilt and Russ both had tremendous impacts their first year but that was a completely different era.


Is the explanation for this a sign of anything?


To answer it simply, the bulls were the Clippers and the gsw with more def before MJ, and time after with him. No player if good without decent players. Jordan had Woolridge, and Theus
And bigs imo impact more because they're closet to the rim.
And if you're saying we over evaluated MJ, homIe your wrong, MJ was soo far ahead of his time, the pet moves that p layers do now... They got from MJ. Basically he revolutionized the game and guard play... So when some one else comes and changes it again..i.e. Derrick Rose, then you we can say MJ is played outdated...get it

yanksrock
07-30-2012, 04:25 PM
Haters gon hate. MJ is the GOAT.

StinkEye
07-30-2012, 04:26 PM
He didn't have a great big beside him. Hell, he didn't have anything great around him.

SteveNash
07-30-2012, 04:42 PM
Jordan simply didn't make teammates better. A slightly better version of AI, it wasn't until Pippen came along that the Bulls started winning meaningful games.

Saying it's easier for Centers just proves Jordan isn't the GOAT.


http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/JordantransformedtheBullstogreatnessbyLarryBird.jp g

JB are you using Windows 98 and IE4????

StinkEye
07-30-2012, 04:45 PM
Jordan simply didn't make teammates better. A slightly better version of AI, it wasn't until Pippen came along that the Bulls started winning meaningful games.

Saying it's easier for Centers just proves Jordan isn't the GOAT.



JB are you using Windows 98 and IE4????

:laugh:

Chronz
07-31-2012, 06:53 PM
JB are you using Windows 98 and IE4????
Dont be ignorant. JB has been copying and pasting arguments since HS.

SteveNash
07-31-2012, 06:58 PM
Dont be ignorant. JB has been copying and pasting arguments since HS.

Book came out in '07, still unacceptable.

BALLER R
07-31-2012, 07:00 PM
I don't get this Lebron better than Jordan stuff. Lebron gets brushed it's a foul. I seen plays when Jordan got hit and nothing was called. Or times when he would get elbowed or hit hard to the ground, but he kept going back in the lane. That determination is why Jordan is better than Lebron. not to mention Lebron complains and whine if anyone even breathes on him.

8kobe24
07-31-2012, 07:11 PM
Jordan needed help just like any other superstar. You cannot win alone (alone meaning playing with a bunch of scrubs) in this league.

SteveNash
07-31-2012, 07:15 PM
I don't get this Lebron better than Jordan stuff. Lebron gets brushed it's a foul. I seen plays when Jordan got hit and nothing was called. Or times when he would get elbowed or hit hard to the ground, but he kept going back in the lane. That determination is why Jordan is better than Lebron. not to mention Lebron complains and whine if anyone even breathes on him.

You clearly didn't watch much of Jordan then. Jordan was a flopper and did shy away from the paint much more than LeBron. Not only that, but he usually got the calls when he got hit, 1 or 2 highlights where he didn't get the whistle means nothing.

Bruno
07-31-2012, 07:22 PM
chronz, how dare you even bring this up.

majmarcus
07-31-2012, 07:25 PM
its a team sport. MJ is the G.O.A.T but he isnt God.
Try telling this to the Jordan worshippers...

majmarcus
07-31-2012, 07:37 PM
Haters gon hate. MJ is the GOAT.
Man, what the phuuck are you talking about? Did you just want to say that crap...who's hating on him?? Did you even read the thread or did you just glance at the title, get offended, & wanted to hop on the defensive with that "haters gon hate" nonsense???

Is Jordan yo pappy & you refuse to accept the good AND bad about him?

97NYer
07-31-2012, 07:46 PM
Because you need more then 1 player.

MJ become special when he had some talent around him and became all time when he had a second good player and great role players. The other players in the league where also much better when he was drafted then today and the rules where different.

Do you honestly believe this?

SteBO
07-31-2012, 07:59 PM
MJ simply didn't have teammates he really trusted. "Trust" is such a huge part of the game, and he simply didn't quite understand that facet of the game. But he eventually got it, and the rest is history......

hidalgo
07-31-2012, 09:23 PM
Jordan simply didn't make teammates better. A slightly better version of AI, it wasn't until Pippen came along that the Bulls started winning meaningful games.

Saying it's easier for Centers just proves Jordan isn't the GOAT.



JB are you using Windows 98 and IE4????a slightly better version of AI?:facepalm:

he was better than Kobe ever was even his rookie year. AI my A@#!

hidalgo
07-31-2012, 09:27 PM
You clearly didn't watch much of Jordan then. Jordan was a flopper and did shy away from the paint much more than LeBron. Not only that, but he usually got the calls when he got hit, 1 or 2 highlights where he didn't get the whistle means nothing.
ohh we got a cool guy contrarian. clearly YOU didn't watch much MJ. weasel

talkin about he was barely better than AI, that says it all about you. my god man, get ahold of your life:facepalm:

he wasn't known as a flopper whatsoever, & he wasn't even remotely close to being shy in the paint. he drove & posted up brilliantly. you're just making shht up weasel hater