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AndyfromNeptune
07-23-2012, 05:06 PM
With the addition of Marcus Camby and Kurt Thomas on the frontline with DPOY Tyson Chandler, a good weakside shot blocker in Stoudemire, a player in Carmelo Anthony who has improved incredibly on the defensive end in terms of his perimter defense and rebounding, the best defensive rookie in Iman Shumpert, an above average former Larry Brown-coached player in Raymond Felton, a very active JR Smith, and one of the most athletic players in the league in James White, can the New York Knicks be a top 5 defensive team in the league this year under Coach Mike Woodson? Share your thoughts please as well as vote in the poll. Hopefully when the 2012 season is over, someone can bump this thread to see who said what.

I will make a bold prediction and say the Knicks will be the top defensive team in the East.

TheRunKiller
07-23-2012, 05:09 PM
LOL no

MintBerryCrunch
07-23-2012, 05:09 PM
They have good defensive Big Men, but not much else.
Stoudemire isnt a great defender and Felton, Kidd, and Melo are pretty much useless on D.

RC3
07-23-2012, 05:11 PM
A lot of people still think the Knicks don't play defense even though the defensive rating was at 5.

effen5
07-23-2012, 05:11 PM
No.

BradHolt4CYoung
07-23-2012, 05:12 PM
Yes the additions of Marcus Camby, Kurt Thomas and James White (D-leaguer?) the Knick are top 5 defensive team no question.

lol I love how you included Amare and Carmelo in your argument. Did you see them on D last year? They were ****ing pathetic.

This entire forum is becoming Knicks fans making threads trying to make there team look the be good/make rivals look worse... :laugh:

knicks=love
07-23-2012, 05:12 PM
:pity:

Raps18-19 Champ
07-23-2012, 05:14 PM
I think they'll just miss it.

davids22
07-23-2012, 05:17 PM
WAY too many Knicks homers on this site who talk up the Knicks defense. Their defense is average at best. Remember when the Knicks were the joke (defensively) of the NBA just one year ago under D'Antoni? They added Woodsen, signed Chandler, and lucked out with Shumpert, and suddenly their a top 5 defensive team?

The OP saying Carmelo had improved his defense, LOL. Amare is not a good defender either, sorry man. Camby and Thomas are DINOSAURS, they are not going to be much help defensively.

The Knicks have a couple (two) great defenders on their team. Everyone else is average. That doesn't make them a top defensive team when not everyone on the roster fits that persona and doesn't buy into the philosophy.

oak2455
07-23-2012, 05:19 PM
Why start these threads do the Knicks need more attention ....ohhhh boy

BradHolt4CYoung
07-23-2012, 05:19 PM
Also, Shumpert who is the Knicks best defender (& Chandler) is coming off major surgery and wont be back till January. Landry Fields is gone and he was a good defender as well. Jason Kidd is a terrible defender at this point of his career...he will be tough to watch

Redbull
07-23-2012, 05:20 PM
Chicago
Miami
Boston
Lakers (if they get Dwight)
Philly
Spurs

Nope.

Beltrans Mole
07-23-2012, 05:21 PM
The Knicks actually have a pretty good D. Not sure if people actually watched them play every night or just continue to base their lame opinions on pre-concieved notions of the D'Antoni era...I'm guessing the latter.

davids22
07-23-2012, 05:23 PM
The Knicks actually have a pretty good D. Not sure if people actually watched them play every night or just continue to base their lame opinions on pre-concieved notions of the D'Antoni era...I'm guessing the latter.

No, everyone knows the Knicks got better on defense. But no one (except Knicks fans) think you guys have a top 5 defense when teams like Miami, Boston, SA, Chicago, and LAL play better defense.

BradHolt4CYoung
07-23-2012, 05:23 PM
The Knicks actually have a pretty good D. Not sure if people actually watched them play every night or just continue to base their lame opinions on pre-concieved notions of the D'Antoni era...I'm guessing the latter.

No I watched them play and when Amare and Melo were on the floor (specifically Amare) the defense was atrocious.

b@llhog24
07-23-2012, 05:24 PM
No, to many average to horrible defenders. There's only so much Tyson can do. Even if Shumpert never got injured and wasn't coming back from his injury I'd say no. He'll probablly start to have a domainant impact defensively in around his 3rd or 4th season though. They'll be top 8-10 for sure though.

NYSPORTSALLDAY
07-23-2012, 05:26 PM
The Knicks actually have a pretty good D. Not sure if people actually watched them play every night or just continue to base their lame opinions on pre-concieved notions of the D'Antoni era...I'm guessing the latter.

This

justinnum1
07-23-2012, 05:27 PM
Top 2?

Lmao!

They won't be better than Miami, Boston, or Chicago.

They might not even be better than philly or Indy.

Da Knicks
07-23-2012, 05:32 PM
Top 2?

Lmao!

They won't be better than Miami, Boston, or Chicago.

They might not even be better than philly or Indy.

philly and indy? :facepalm: you my friend are a joke and a full 82 full season will show you how much of a joke you really are...

justinnum1
07-23-2012, 05:36 PM
Top 2?

Lmao!

They won't be better than Miami, Boston, or Chicago.

They might not even be better than philly or Indy.

philly and indy? :facepalm: you my friend are a joke and a full 82 full season will show you how much of a joke you really are...
You're delusional.

naztrack
07-23-2012, 05:38 PM
a few things one, please stop starting these threads especially in the nba forum section, two people can't wait to hate on the knicks for a few reasons one is its the new york knicks people are jealous of new york and two us fans give them more and more material....we have to stop giving them a reason to hate. Someone here made a point saying they actually finished 5th last year...i didnt no that but i'm not suprised....melo played the most defense last season then he did in any other season lets be honest...amare is lost but hey he is honest never was taught....someone said felton, kidd and some other knicks were useless on defense..not true felton is pretty damn tuff defender so is kidd....adding camby and kurt sures up our paint....when we get iman we should be set at the wings lets be realistic i think we have a great chance at being a top 5 team defensively (no homer).

Joker55
07-23-2012, 05:41 PM
No.

Top ten sure, but not top 5.

JoeDirt05
07-23-2012, 05:42 PM
does this really need to be in all bold?

D2theJ
07-23-2012, 05:43 PM
hahaha..

Joker55
07-23-2012, 05:43 PM
a few things one, please stop starting these threads especially in the nba forum section, two people can't wait to hate on the knicks for a few reasons one is its the new york knicks people are jealous of new york and two us fans give them more and more material....we have to stop giving them a reason to hate. Someone here made a point saying they actually finished 5th last year...i didnt no that but i'm not suprised....melo played the most defense last season then he did in any other season lets be honest...amare is lost but hey he is honest never was taught....someone said felton, kidd and some other knicks were useless on defense..not true felton is pretty damn tuff defender so is kidd....adding camby and kurt sures up our paint....when we get iman we should be set at the wings lets be realistic i think we have a great chance at being a top 5 team defensively (no homer).

:eyebrow:

Big Zo
07-23-2012, 05:43 PM
a few things one, please stop starting these threads especially in the nba forum section, two people can't wait to hate on the knicks for a few reasons one is its the new york knicks people are jealous of new york and two us fans give them more and more material....we have to stop giving them a reason to hate. Someone here made a point saying they actually finished 5th last year...i didnt no that but i'm not suprised....melo played the most defense last season then he did in any other season lets be honest...amare is lost but hey he is honest never was taught....someone said felton, kidd and some other knicks were useless on defense..not true felton is pretty damn tuff defender so is kidd....adding camby and kurt sures up our paint....when we get iman we should be set at the wings lets be realistic i think we have a great chance at being a top 5 team defensively (no homer).

Someone's on a high horse...

Kashmir13579
07-23-2012, 05:44 PM
They actually probably will be. Believe it or not.

naps
07-23-2012, 05:44 PM
No.

sunsfan88
07-23-2012, 05:44 PM
Their 2 best players are awful on defense. That's why they won't be a top 5 defensive team in the league.

Jroz
07-23-2012, 05:46 PM
saving this thread for April 2013.

jmoney85
07-23-2012, 05:48 PM
no matter what 5 players on the floor at any given time there will be a few holes... thats not a top 5 defense IMO...

and if you homers really think melo plays defense you obviously havent been watching team usa play... melo has been suspect

mvb815
07-23-2012, 05:54 PM
Realistically speaking though, in order for this to be true amare has to step up the d, I don't understand why a guy that gifted is so bad at d. Also shump would have to come back 100% it's not out of reach though, if they want to be contenders they will need to be at the very least top 5 on d.

dalton749
07-23-2012, 05:56 PM
knicks suck, bro

NYY09
07-23-2012, 06:03 PM
Does it really matter? Doubt they beat Miami with the team they have anyway...

Also, thanks OP for making it easier to be a Knicks fan.

TheNumber37
07-23-2012, 06:04 PM
spurs? maybe 10 years ago... your just thinking of teams now... and Lakers? yeah, Kobe older and adding Nash sure helps....
you can only make a case for Chicago, Miami, Boston, Okc, Philly. and I think the Knicks will be better than one of them especially when you factor in point differential

Yanks All Day
07-23-2012, 06:05 PM
8th in points differential
11th in opponent ppg
10th in opponent fg%
23rd in opponent 3pt%

They weren't a top 5 defensive team last year. Nothing about them screamed top 5 this off-season either. Iman Shumpert, their best wing defender, is down with a torn ACL. Jason Kidd, Carmelo Anthony and Amar'e Stoudemire don't play a lick of defense. If Steve Novak isn't spot shooting, he's useless on the court. Chandler and Camby will hold their own, but that's about it. They need a lot of things to come together, but it all starts with their 2 stars learning to play defense. Look at Miami. LeBron and Wade LOVE playing defense, and it turns into a high octane transition offense and a lot more easy wins. Carmelo and Amar'e HAVE to do that.

Miami
Boston
Chicago
OKC
San Antonio
Philadelphia
Indiana
Los Angeles Lakers

Off the top of my head. There's 8 teams that I can guarantee will be better than the Knicks defensively. Top 10 is certainly attainable, but top 5 might be a bit of a stretch.

Gagan136
07-23-2012, 06:06 PM
Top 5 i dont think so, and top 2 in east? I dont thonk that happens either with Boston, Miami, Chicago all better teams on the defensive end.

Punk
07-23-2012, 06:08 PM
People seem to post without knowing facts. Will they be next season? Remains to be seen but certainly in the Top 10. Anyone who thinks Chandler, Iman, Camby, Kidd won't help defensively is a moron.

Under Woodson they had the best defensive numbers in the league in every category. Which is why they went 18-6.

The potential is certainly there. They were Top 5 in defensive rating up there with Chicago, Philly, Boston, Miami.

Alayla
07-23-2012, 06:10 PM
as a sixers fan who has allways thought little of the melo amare knicks ..yes i can see them taking phillys place as a top 5 Defenseive team we lost elton brand and they picked up camby its a small thing but it should give chanlder a breather from time to time. and they where underrated on that end of the floor last year to begin with

elledaddy
07-23-2012, 06:11 PM
No.

Top ten sure, but not top 5.


Can't knock this guy opinion. But sometimes "good D" stem from a slow or non-explosive offense. I'm a Knicks fan and I can say that I don't see the Knicks being better than Mia,SA,CHi or Boston( partly because Mia,Bos and Chi all run the same excact defensive scheme and and Coach Pop with SA always been sound defensively). However I seen Ind get destroyed by the Knicks this year more than once, I do think the Knicks CAN be better then them. And I lived near philly and was forced to watch ALL their games. They were good on D but their Def atleast stat wise had a lot to do with their very very very slow,boring run the shot clock down offense. Its easy to have better defensive stats when you limit the other team total possesions. I think the knicks will shock many ppl with how good their D will be this yr.

Da Knicks
07-23-2012, 06:11 PM
You're delusional.

your'e a knick hater..:)

marj987
07-23-2012, 06:11 PM
Even the bucks are better defensive team than the Knicks, and they can't even make it to the playoffs

Alayla
07-23-2012, 06:11 PM
8th in points differential
11th in opponent ppg
10th in opponent fg%
23rd in opponent 3pt%

They weren't a top 5 defensive team last year. Nothing about them screamed top 5 this off-season either. Iman Shumpert, their best wing defender, is down with a torn ACL. Jason Kidd, Carmelo Anthony and Amar'e Stoudemire don't play a lick of defense. If Steve Novak isn't spot shooting, he's useless on the court. Chandler and Camby will hold their own, but that's about it. They need a lot of things to come together, but it all starts with their 2 stars learning to play defense. Look at Miami. LeBron and Wade LOVE playing defense, and it turns into a high octane transition offense and a lot more easy wins. Carmelo and Amar'e HAVE to do that.

Miami
Boston
Chicago
OKC
San Antonio
Philadelphia
Indiana
Los Angeles Lakers

Off the top of my head. There's 8 teams that I can guarantee will be better than the Knicks defensively. Top 10 is certainly attainable, but top 5 might be a bit of a stretch.

:confused: No Just .. NO

xxplayerxx23
07-23-2012, 06:16 PM
They have improved from the past. But without Iman for a while I have them top 10-12 which is not bad

xxplayerxx23
07-23-2012, 06:19 PM
Even the bucks are better defensive team than the Knicks, and they can't even make it to the playoffs

You took it two steps too far lol

xxplayerxx23
07-23-2012, 06:21 PM
J-Kidd does play defense. Not great but he is average-above average. Felton is a tough nosed defedner also not great. And Melo has brought his d up to Average on the ball defense. They wont be top 5 but they can be top 10-12 range

PhillyFaninLA
07-23-2012, 06:21 PM
A lot of people still think the Knicks don't play defense even though the defensive rating was at 5.

Watching shows a lot more then stats can. The Knicks are not a good defensive team, they will be better can't hold a candle to quite a few teams.

keetyweedy
07-23-2012, 06:24 PM
Lol hell No

Punk
07-23-2012, 06:25 PM
Watching shows a lot more then stats can. The Knicks are not a good defensive team, they will be better can't hold a candle to quite a few teams.

:laugh:

Most absurd thing I've read all week.

Raph12
07-23-2012, 06:26 PM
They were top 5 last season, but Melo and Stat sat off a lot and it was a condensed season, so we'll see.

jayjay33
07-23-2012, 06:34 PM
The knicks played excellent defense under woodson. I wish all the people saying no would at least say what they thik will be different. Do you not think they will give as much effort? Any anybody who thinks melo "can't" play D does not know what they are talking about.

LongIslandIcedZ
07-23-2012, 06:37 PM
Weren't they top five in defensive points per possession? I may have made that up, but I believe its the case.

BradHolt4CYoung
07-23-2012, 06:40 PM
Im pretty sure the Knicks were outside the top 10 last year in opponents points per game. Isn't that what matters? Isn't the point of playing defense to stop the opposition from scoring?

Lakers + Giants
07-23-2012, 06:42 PM
No.

Top ten sure, but not top 5.

This.

justinnum1
07-23-2012, 06:43 PM
Weren't they top five in defensive points per possession? I may have made that up, but I believe its the case.

That doesn't mean a whole lot. They could never get a stop when they needed to.

colinskik
07-23-2012, 06:45 PM
That doesn't mean a whole lot. They could never get a stop when they needed to.
They stopped Wade from hitting that shot in game 4...

Yes, i'm joking ...kinda

97NYer
07-23-2012, 06:46 PM
They were top 5 last year and added Camby and Kurt Thomas and Felton. For everyone saying "LOL NO" lol....no.

Fuddrucka
07-23-2012, 06:48 PM
They have good defensive Big Men, but not much else.
Stoudemire isnt a great defender and Felton, Kidd, and Melo are pretty much useless on D.

with all due respect the original post said that Stoudemire is a good weakside shot blocker. Felton has always been an above average defender and Melo(as well as J.R.) proved he can play defense under Mike Woodson :cool:

SportsFanatic10
07-23-2012, 06:49 PM
if they are top 5 then that would be higher then their playoff seed. :p

xxplayerxx23
07-23-2012, 06:50 PM
all year long they got key stops. In the Miami series they didnt. Game 4 was it. But enough with this they cant play defesnse they will be top 10-12

Chronz
07-23-2012, 06:51 PM
Kurt Thomas is back?

Melo improved his D tremendously?

LongIslandIcedZ
07-23-2012, 06:52 PM
Weren't they top five in defensive points per possession? I may have made that up, but I believe its the case.

That doesn't mean a whole lot. They could never get a stop when they needed to.

What does that even mean? How can you quantify that? Besides the Heat series where they had little or no chance, when could they "never" get a stop when they needed to? Under Woodson of course.

Fuddrucka
07-23-2012, 06:52 PM
not for nothing the only team in the league that played better team defense from the time Mike Woodson took over was San Antonio(regular season of course)

money millz
07-23-2012, 06:55 PM
BradHolt4CyYoung is just mad cuz hes a mets fan lol

Bishnoff
07-23-2012, 06:55 PM
They have good defensive Big Men, but not much else.
Stoudemire isnt a great defender and Felton, Kidd, and Melo are pretty much useless on D.

This.

xxplayerxx23
07-23-2012, 06:57 PM
Kurt Thomas is back?

Melo improved his D tremendously?

Kurt Thomas cant guard me . But Yeah Melo has improved. He is defintely Average on the ball defender as of last year esp when Woodson took over

Fuddrucka
07-23-2012, 06:58 PM
The Knicks actually have a pretty good D. Not sure if people actually watched them play every night or just continue to base their lame opinions on pre-concieved notions of the D'Antoni era...I'm guessing the latter.

I co-sign that :clap:

Chronz
07-23-2012, 07:01 PM
Kurt Thomas cant guard me . But Yeah Melo has improved. He is defintely Average on the ball defender as of last year esp when Woodson took over

Thats not a tremendous improvement to me hes usually been average on the ball. Its the team defense I worry about.

keetyweedy
07-23-2012, 07:02 PM
But they did have the defensive player of the year, who was on the 2nd all defensive team
:laugh2:

NYK|NYY
07-23-2012, 07:03 PM
Wow, Knicks defense is so underrated around here. Of course it's expected since we were man handled by a tremendous Miami team, but even so. We weren't THAT bad, and we got better.

Knicks21
07-23-2012, 07:19 PM
The knicks were top 5 last year, i dont see how they arent the same.
There are the stats, the rest of you are just stating opinion.
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false

xxplayerxx23
07-23-2012, 07:21 PM
Thats not a tremendous improvement to me hes usually been average on the ball. Its the team defense I worry about.

Oh I agree it isnt tremendous but overal he was average, help on the ball. he will never be a shut down guy but he was not below average any esp when Woodson took over

knicksfan42
07-23-2012, 07:23 PM
No need for this thread. That said they were top 5 last year so why not and we got better defensively this offseason.

StarvingKnick22
07-23-2012, 07:27 PM
wow. really?

Jarvo
07-23-2012, 07:27 PM
Foh

StarvingKnick22
07-23-2012, 07:28 PM
Kurt Thomas is back?

Melo improved his D tremendously?

yes, we got Kurt Thomas in the Felton S&T

SpaceJamJordans
07-23-2012, 07:31 PM
**** the Knicks!!!

knicksfan42
07-23-2012, 07:32 PM
On the down side we did lose Jeffries who was actually both a great on ball defender and a great help defender.

Rockice_8
07-23-2012, 07:43 PM
I think they might be able to get close to the top 5 but they'll probably be near the bottom in offensive eff so it'll balance out.

They just lost an efficient PG for 2 horrible shooting ones and with Woodson's ISO offense Melo is going chuck away.

SeoulBeatz
07-23-2012, 07:43 PM
Talent wise? Yes. But the problem with the knicks is they always have a ton of talent, they just don't have any chemistry and aren't a TEAM by any means.

On paper, their lineup looks very dangerous, but it never pans out on the court.

Maybe they'll get it together, but losing Shump for a while hurts, and there's no way he'll be the same until the 2013-14 season. ACL injuries are no joke; you can fool yourself all you want into thinking he'll be exactly the same when he comes back, but it never happens that way. Damn shame because he's an excellent defender/team player that the Knicks sorely need.

dc5jdm
07-23-2012, 07:48 PM
Lmao really??

BradHolt4CYoung
07-23-2012, 07:54 PM
On the down side we did lose Jeffries who was actually both a great on ball defender and a great help defender.

Forgot about that, Jeffries was a beast on defense and played with a lot of heart and hustle unlike a lot of his teammates at times.

Losing Jeffries and Fields, both 2 of the Knicks better defenders, as well as Shumpert being out/coming off injury....how much better can their D get? You really think Camby will play that big of a role? He's worse on D then Chandler.

Why is Hollingers defensive efficiency rating more significant then the opponents points per game?

The Knicks were outside the top 10 last year in opponents ppg. Last time I checked the most important thing on defense is to have your opponent NOT SCORE. Whatever.

seikou8
07-23-2012, 07:55 PM
Talent wise? Yes. But the problem with the knicks is they always have a ton of talent, they just don't have any chemistry and aren't a TEAM by any means.

On paper, their lineup looks very dangerous, but it never pans out on the court.

Maybe they'll get it together, but losing Shump for a while hurts, and there's no way he'll be the same until the 2013-14 season. ACL injuries are no joke; you can fool yourself all you want into thinking he'll be exactly the same when he comes back, but it never happens that way. Damn shame because he's an excellent defender/team player that the Knicks sorely need.

this but i do think we can be top 10

Knicks21
07-23-2012, 08:00 PM
Forgot about that, Jeffries was a beast on defense and played with a lot of heart and hustle unlike a lot of his teammates at times.

Losing Jeffries and Fields, both 2 of the Knicks better defenders, as well as Shumpert being out/coming off injury....how much better can their D get? You really think Camby will play that big of a role? He's worse on D then Chandler.

Why is Hollingers defensive efficiency rating more significant then the opponents points per game?

The Knicks were outside the top 10 last year in opponents ppg. Last time I checked the most important thing on defense is to have your opponent NOT SCORE. Whatever.

Hollingers rating is points given up per 100 possessions, if you play a slow tempo offense ie Portland the opposing team is going to have less attempts at their offensive end, making them score less points per game.

knicksfan42
07-23-2012, 08:09 PM
Forgot about that, Jeffries was a beast on defense and played with a lot of heart and hustle unlike a lot of his teammates at times.

Losing Jeffries and Fields, both 2 of the Knicks better defenders, as well as Shumpert being out/coming off injury....how much better can their D get? You really think Camby will play that big of a role? He's worse on D then Chandler.


Jeffries was great like I said, but saying Fields was one of the Knicks better defenders shows me you don't know what the **** you are talking about. Fields was a below average-average defender. Camby will have a bigger role than Jeffries and he will play 20-25 mpg. As for him being worse on D than Chandler, well so what, Chandler is the best defender on the team and would be the best defender most teams.


Why is Hollingers defensive efficiency rating more significant then the opponents points per game?


Its what most people and analysts use when talking about a teams defense. Defensive Efficiency - the number of points a team allows per 100 possessions. It accounts for things like pace. Yes Hollinger's defensive efficiency is a far better measure of a teams defense than opponents points per game.

AndyfromNeptune
07-23-2012, 09:30 PM
Forgot about that, Jeffries was a beast on defense and played with a lot of heart and hustle unlike a lot of his teammates at times.

Losing Jeffries and Fields, both 2 of the Knicks better defenders, as well as Shumpert being out/coming off injury....how much better can their D get? You really think Camby will play that big of a role? He's worse on D then Chandler.

Why is Hollingers defensive efficiency rating more significant then the opponents points per game?

The Knicks were outside the top 10 last year in opponents ppg. Last time I checked the most important thing on defense is to have your opponent NOT SCORE. Whatever.


Opponents points per game is actually pretty irrelevant because it is based on the pace of the game.

Hollinger's ratings are generally the most respected, and the Knicks were number 5.

For all the posters in this thread who think the Knicks defense is awful, take a look. If we were top 5 last year, and we are playing a FULL season under Woodson, I do not see why we cannot be better than top 5. Keep in mind only the San Antonio Spurs played better defensively than us since Woodson took over last year. And to be honest, the Spurs were playing incredible--very hard to replicate for a whole season.


http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false

P Styles
07-23-2012, 09:33 PM
Itt a lot of people that dont regularly watch the Knicks play post their opinions about how the Knicks regularly play

dnewguy
07-23-2012, 09:50 PM
Lets see here; Miami, Chicago, Boston, Indiana and Philly are still in the East....they're not even top 5 defensively in the East.

dnewguy
07-23-2012, 09:52 PM
Itt a lot of people that dont regularly watch the Knicks play post their opinions about how the Knicks regularly play

Maybe because the few games they saw, the Knicks were still playing like the Knicks?

Knicks21
07-23-2012, 10:04 PM
Lets see here; Miami, Chicago, Boston, Indiana and Philly are still in the East....they're not even top 5 defensively in the East.
You got any evidence to back this statement up?

dnewguy
07-23-2012, 10:10 PM
You got any evidence to back this statement up?

They were all better last season....now show me the evidence you got? The 70 yr old Jason Kidd and the Ice age veteran Camby will keep up with other teams? Is that all you got?

justinnum1
07-23-2012, 10:18 PM
They were all better last season....now show me the evidence you got? The 70 yr old Jason Kidd and the Ice age veteran Camby will keep up with other teams? Is that all you got?

Don't forget Kurt thomas!

Evolution23
07-23-2012, 10:25 PM
It's possible with Mike Woodson.

knicksfan42
07-23-2012, 10:28 PM
They were all better last season....now show me the evidence you got? The 70 yr old Jason Kidd and the Ice age veteran Camby will keep up with other teams? Is that all you got?

Do you know what the word evidence means? I know you're not too bright, but this is laughable. "They were all better last season" isn't evidence. Even if the statement was true it still wouldn't be evidence. Now because I'm not a halfwit I actually will present some evidence: http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff


The Knicks were the 5th best defense in the NBA.


As for Kidd and Camby, they kept up with other teams last year just fine. Camby is the best back up center in the league right now and is better than every big man on your team not named Bosh.

Becks2307
07-23-2012, 10:29 PM
Forgot about that, Jeffries was a beast on defense and played with a lot of heart and hustle unlike a lot of his teammates at times.

Losing Jeffries and Fields, both 2 of the Knicks better defenders, as well as Shumpert being out/coming off injury....how much better can their D get? You really think Camby will play that big of a role? He's worse on D then Chandler.

Why is Hollingers defensive efficiency rating more significant then the opponents points per game?

The Knicks were outside the top 10 last year in opponents ppg. Last time I checked the most important thing on defense is to have your opponent NOT SCORE. Whatever.


hahahahha fields!!!?? a good defender??? WHATTT is this the same landry fields who jumped for EVERY pump fake last season??

Knicks21
07-23-2012, 10:31 PM
They were all better last season....now show me the evidence you got? The 70 yr old Jason Kidd and the Ice age veteran Camby will keep up with other teams? Is that all you got?

So its your opinion that we wont do as well, thats fine but until the season starts we are still top 5. The evidence i have is top 5 Defensive efficiency, which is the only stat that is relevant when determining how good a team defence is. Indiana wasnt better, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, New York, in that order.

knicks4life33
07-23-2012, 10:32 PM
Do you know what the word evidence means? I know you're not too bright, but this is laughable. "They were all better last season" isn't evidence. Even if the statement was true it still wouldn't be evidence. Now because I'm not a halfwit I actually will present some evidence: http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff


The Knicks were the 5th best defense in the NBA.


As for Kidd and Camby, they kept up with other teams last year just fine. Camby is the best back up center in the league right now and is better than every big man on your team not named Bosh.

:clap::clap:

BklyNyk
07-24-2012, 12:48 AM
They were all better last season....now show me the evidence you got? The 70 yr old Jason Kidd and the Ice age veteran Camby will keep up with other teams? Is that all you got?

LMAO. This ***** here can't be serious haha.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2012, 01:27 AM
They play Melo and Stoudemire 37+ mpg. As long as that combo gets monster minutes, you are not a top 5 defensive team unless you surround them with elite defenders with a defensive bench. Which the Knicks don't have.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2012, 01:29 AM
I realize they were 5th last year, but that won't hold up. They got older, and Camby is not the defender he was years ago. Shumpert will also miss a large chunk of the season, and he is their top perimeter defender.

knicksfan42
07-24-2012, 07:52 AM
They play Melo and Stoudemire 37+ mpg. As long as that combo gets monster minutes, you are not a top 5 defensive team unless you surround them with elite defenders with a defensive bench. Which the Knicks don't have.



Melo played 34.1 mpg last year, STAT played 32.8 mpg. Neither is going to play 37 mpg.


Melo was an average defender last season.


As for STAT, well the team managed to play 5 on 4 defense just fine last season.


Shumpert is a great defender, but he is overrated and we did fine without him defensively last season.


Camby isn't what he once was and yet he is still a solid defender. Kidd is still decent. Smith (who will most likely start now) is a better defender than Fields.


Depending on who we fill out the roster with we could very well have a good defensive bench. If we had kept Jeffries I would say we already have one.

dalton749
07-24-2012, 08:36 AM
Jr isn't a better defender than fields

knicksfan42
07-24-2012, 08:38 AM
Jr isn't a better defender than fields

He is and this is coming from Fields' number 1 fan.

mjm07
07-24-2012, 08:39 AM
I think they can be, potentially, top 5. More realistcally top 10 defense.

LongIslandIcedZ
07-24-2012, 08:40 AM
As long as Chandler stays healthy, they will have a top defense. When Chandler played they were excellent, when Chandler didnt play they blew chunks. It will be nice to finally have a good defender/excellent rebounder to back him up this year as well. Felton is a good defender too, without a doubt better than Lin. Kidd, I'm not sure about. He's pretty old and I cant see him contributing much. I think the Knicks have a real shot at finishing top 5 again.

Joker117
07-24-2012, 09:01 AM
We're old , missing imam for half the season or whatever so no but we will play
Ike a top 5 team when 100%...

Becks2307
07-24-2012, 09:06 AM
but wait, knicks play no defense right!? its all mike dantoni's fault :rolleyes:

theheatles
07-24-2012, 09:10 AM
i don't even think the knicks are a top 5 defensive team in the east

LongIslandIcedZ
07-24-2012, 09:20 AM
i don't even think the knicks are a top 5 defensive team in the east

What's changed from last year?

Shumpert is good, but when it comes to PPG I dont believe there was a big difference when he was in and out.

waveycrockett
07-24-2012, 09:26 AM
Chandler is the only one in that starting 5 that plays a lick of defense. Iman and Jefferies will be missed.

dnewguy
07-24-2012, 11:17 AM
Do you know what the word evidence means? I know you're not too bright, but this is laughable. "They were all better last season" isn't evidence. Even if the statement was true it still wouldn't be evidence. Now because I'm not a halfwit I actually will present some evidence: http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff


The Knicks were the 5th best defense in the NBA.


As for Kidd and Camby, they kept up with other teams last year just fine. Camby is the best back up center in the league right now and is better than every big man on your team not named Bosh.

Pulease....hollinger is what you use as evidence? How about I use a quote by Al Gore as evidence for global warming. Hollinger uses some messed up way to analyze defense. Miami had a tougher time scoring against Indiana and any other team in the East outside of Toronto and the Knicks. That's all the evidence I need. Your defense is non-existent....hollinger stats can be skewed because it looks at all 30 teams.....I bet if you break it down by only play-off teams the Knicks will be at the bottom. Hollinger statistics tell you nothing about how good your team is defensively. Just because your team is a beast defensively against the Bobcats and the Raptors does not make you good defensively.....most teams take the night off when they face those teams....the Knicks play them like it's the play-offs thus skewing their defensive performance. When is the last time the Knicks shut down a play-offs team?

justinnum1
07-24-2012, 11:54 AM
Brewer will help them.

Longhornfan1234
07-24-2012, 11:59 AM
Brewer will help them.

He will shut out Wade.

Longhornfan1234
07-24-2012, 12:05 PM
31 year old Wade is going to have nightmares of the Brewer-Shumpert combo. Too bad the Knicks don't have anyone to guard Bosh and King James.

jimm120
07-24-2012, 12:11 PM
Chandler is the only one in that starting 5 that plays a lick of defense. Iman and Jefferies will be missed.

yeah, last year was kinda special.

Tyson (interior), Iman (outside/speed defense), and Jeffries (help defense) were the main cogs.

On top of that, Lin, JR Smith also played a huge role with many steals.

And with a cherry on top? Melo actually tried on defense.


Lin is gone.
Jeffries is gone.
Iman is out for 2 months.

We've replaced Jeffries with Camby (a HUGE upgrade), but still lost Lin defensively (for the steals, not necessarily man-to-man) and Iman is still out for 2 months.

seikou8
07-24-2012, 12:21 PM
31 year old Wade is going to have nightmares of the Brewer-Shumpert combo. Too bad the Knicks don't have anyone to guard Bosh and King James.

true :( now we are;)

koreancabbage
07-24-2012, 12:52 PM
i will take Hollinger's stats into consideration and their real statistics from last year as a team and they for sure are a top 10 defensive team. top 5 is pushing it as there team that I would personally take ahead of them, preferential-wise.

In the end overall, anywhere in the top 7 is easily attainable with factors like coach and defensive players they have.

Becks2307
07-24-2012, 01:17 PM
ronnie brewer son!

Hawkeye15
07-24-2012, 01:25 PM
Melo played 34.1 mpg last year, STAT played 32.8 mpg. Neither is going to play 37 mpg.


Melo was an average defender last season.


As for STAT, well the team managed to play 5 on 4 defense just fine last season.


Shumpert is a great defender, but he is overrated and we did fine without him defensively last season.


Camby isn't what he once was and yet he is still a solid defender. Kidd is still decent. Smith (who will most likely start now) is a better defender than Fields.


Depending on who we fill out the roster with we could very well have a good defensive bench. If we had kept Jeffries I would say we already have one.

I still don't think they are top 5 this season. Top 10, yes.

I Rock Shaqs
07-24-2012, 01:28 PM
With the addition of Marcus Camby and Kurt Thomas on the frontline with DPOY Tyson Chandler, a good weakside shot blocker in Stoudemire, a player in Carmelo Anthony who has improved incredibly on the defensive end in terms of his perimter defense and rebounding, the best defensive rookie in Iman Shumpert, an above average former Larry Brown-coached player in Raymond Felton, a very active JR Smith, and one of the most athletic players in the league in James White, can the New York Knicks be a top 5 defensive team in the league this year under Coach Mike Woodson? Share your thoughts please as well as vote in the poll. Hopefully when the 2012 season is over, someone can bump this thread to see who said what.

I will make a bold prediction and say the Knicks will be the top 2 defensive teams in the East.

Are you like 80% blind or something?

I Rock Shaqs
07-24-2012, 01:31 PM
Why is that only Knick fans agree with other Knicks fans? shouldn't that tell you guys something?

NYKNYGNYY
07-24-2012, 01:44 PM
some people must think we still have no "d" antoni as our coach...with woody who improved melos d greatly i think we have a chance to be top 5 gonna wait till the season starts shump comes back healthy its almost a deffinate we get brewer will be a good addition...oo yea we have the dpoy as our center in tyson chandler......if we still had jefferies would anyones oppion change. serious question...he statistcally may not of been the best but the man can draw charges

NYKNYGNYY
07-24-2012, 01:47 PM
Why is that only Knick fans agree with other Knicks fans? shouldn't that tell you guys something?

everyone said landry and lin sucked when they were with us now that there elsewere people all around are saying there good players...not you that ive seen but alot of people, could be just raptors and rockets fans

THE MTL
07-24-2012, 02:03 PM
Eh, I wish the person who made the thread used more CONVINCING evidence. The Knicks last year were top 10 defensive team almost all year even under D'Antoni. And under Woodson we had the 5th best defense in the league and for the month of April, we had the BEST defense. With the additions of solid defenders like Camby, Kidd, Brewer, Felton...we should be a Top 5 defensive team once again.

faze38
07-24-2012, 03:25 PM
no matter what 5 players on the floor at any given time there will be a few holes... thats not a top 5 defense IMO...

and if you homers really think melo plays defense you obviously havent been watching team usa play... melo has been suspect

Really that's kind of weird to say cause last time I checked the Bulls have Boozer and Rose two players with bad to awful D but they have been the best defensive team in the league the last two seasons. I mean I am not gonna sit here and say Stat and Melo are great defenders but having Felton, Brewer, Kidd, Camby, Chandler, Shumpert and a focused Jr sounds like an awesome defensive team to me no question. This team is dangerous but once again to me unless Amare, Melo and Chandler can make it work we are in trouble because we tend to struggle to put up points. The d looks to be great but Felton and Kidd still have a lot of work to do to make this work.

justinnum1
07-24-2012, 03:35 PM
Really that's kind of weird to say cause last time I checked the Bulls have Boozer and Rose two players with bad to awful D but they have been the best defensive team in the league the last two seasons. I mean I am not gonna sit here and say Stat and Melo are great defenders but having Felton, Brewer, Kidd, Camby, Chandler, Shumpert and a focused Jr sounds like an awesome defensive team to me no question. This team is dangerous but once again to me unless Amare, Melo and Chandler can make it work we are in trouble because we tend to struggle to put up points. The d looks to be great but Felton and Kidd still have a lot of work to do to make this work.

Rose's D is average to above average. Boozer D is not good but better than amare considering boozer actually makes an attempt to play D.


Defense might not be the knicks problem next year(they will be top 10)

Offense will be there problem. They were horrible offensively last year, dont see them being a top 15 offensive team this year.

RLundi
07-24-2012, 03:39 PM
Top 2?

Lmao!

They won't be better than Miami, Boston, or Chicago.

They might not even be better than philly or Indy.

This.

Sly Guy
07-24-2012, 04:21 PM
WAY too many Knicks homers on this site who talk up the Knicks defense. Their defense is average at best. Remember when the Knicks were the joke (defensively) of the NBA just one year ago under D'Antoni? They added Woodsen, signed Chandler, and lucked out with Shumpert, and suddenly their a top 5 defensive team?

The OP saying Carmelo had improved his defense, LOL. Amare is not a good defender either, sorry man. Camby and Thomas are DINOSAURS, they are not going to be much help defensively.

The Knicks have a couple (two) great defenders on their team. Everyone else is average. That doesn't make them a top defensive team when not everyone on the roster fits that persona and doesn't buy into the philosophy.


that sig is hilarious.....lol.

Bornknick73
07-24-2012, 05:33 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff

To recap...

Half a season of no D "Antoni"

Horrible defensive rotation players in Novak, Fields, Amar'e, Lin, Bibby and supposedly Melo, who actually improved a great deal under Woodson.

We lost like 10 straight, then had another losing streak of like 8 straight.

We were a team of 2 players on defense Tyson and Shumpert and to a lesser degree Jeffries.

And as horrible as you all say we were....

We were the 5th best defensive team in the NBA.

Now add Camby, Felton (who is way better defensively then Lin) and the always rugged Kurt Thomas. Replace Shump with Brewer. Laugh if you will at old *** Jason Kidd but he is stilll a very capable defender even if the rest of his game may have abandoned him (as everyone seems to say, but if he joined any other team im sure they will say hes a great vet. pickup) And hes far superior defensively to Baron, Bibby and Lin. Not All World, but miles better than we had even at his age.

So we were the 5th best defensive team with lesser defenders, no practice time and half a season of Dantoni.

To think this highly improved Knicks defensive rotation of players cant duplicate that or surpass that is just straight hate. And when Shump comes back a lineup of....

Felton
Shump
Brewer
Camby
Tyson

...Is lockdown defense. They may not score many points but when the oppositions offense starts rolling we can throw that at them to slow it to a crawl. This team, as much as most of you hate/dislike it are gonna be one of the better defensive teams in the NBA next year. Oldschool Knicks basketball is coming back to the Garden whether you like it or not. And if we can keep games within 5 points or less going down the stretch Melo will win the game for us.

With better defenders, a full training camp, a full 82 game season with plenty of rest and practice time I expect it to be top 3.

If we were top 5 with the "scrubs" everyone says we had what more can we do with better defenders and more time to learn Woodsons defense?

AndyfromNeptune
07-24-2012, 05:55 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff

To recap...

Half a season of no D "Antoni"

Horrible defensive rotation players in Novak, Fields, Amar'e, Lin, Bibby and supposedly Melo, who actually improved a great deal under Woodson.

We lost like 10 straight, then had another losing streak of like 8 straight.

We were a team of 2 players on defense Tyson and Shumpert and to a lesser degree Jeffries.

And as horrible as you all say we were....

We were the 5th best defensive team in the NBA.

Now add Camby, Felton (who is way better defensively then Lin) and the always rugged Kurt Thomas. Replace Shump with Brewer. Laugh if you will at old *** Jason Kidd but he is stilll a very capable defender even if the rest of his game may have abandoned him (as everyone seems to say, but if he joined any other team im sure they will say hes a great vet. pickup) And hes far superior defensively to Baron, Bibby and Lin. Not All World, but miles better than we had even at his age.

So we were the 5th best defensive team with lesser defenders, no practice time and half a season of Dantoni.

To think this highly improved Knicks defensive rotation of players cant duplicate that or surpass that is just straight hate. And when Shump comes back a lineup of....

Felton
Shump
Brewer
Camby
Tyson

...Is lockdown defense. They may not score many points but when the oppositions offense starts rolling we can throw that at them to slow it to a crawl. This team, as much as most of you hate/dislike it are gonna be one of the better defensive teams in the NBA next year. Oldschool Knicks basketball is coming back to the Garden whether you like it or not. And if we can keep games within 5 points or less going down the stretch Melo will win the game for us.

With better defenders, a full training camp, a full 82 game season with plenty of rest and practice time I expect it to be top 3.

If we were top 5 with the "scrubs" everyone says we had what more can we do with better defenders and more time to learn Woodsons defense?

After signing Ronnie Brewer, not only do I think we can be a top 5 defensive team, I think we can be better.


Cannot wait to bring this thread back at the end of the season.

jam
07-24-2012, 06:21 PM
Knicks fans are top 5 most delusional.

KnicksorBust
07-24-2012, 06:33 PM
Eh, I wish the person who made the thread used more CONVINCING evidence. The Knicks last year were top 10 defensive team almost all year even under D'Antoni. And under Woodson we had the 5th best defense in the league and for the month of April, we had the BEST defense. With the additions of solid defenders like Camby, Kidd, Brewer, Felton...we should be a Top 5 defensive team once again.

I'd be 100% on board with this if you could tell me that Shumpert was going to be fully healthy at the start of the season.

xxplayerxx23
07-24-2012, 06:34 PM
i still think they will be top 10. 8-12 Range

ATX
07-24-2012, 06:48 PM
Nobody will care if Knicks are top "Whatever" if they get bounced in the first or even second round next season. I'll only be impressed if they make the ECF with that roster. Very capable, but can they put it together enough to defeat the likes of Chicago, Indiana, Boston, and Miami? We shall see. Season can't start soon enough...

Bornknick73
07-24-2012, 06:54 PM
Knicks fans are top 5 most delusional.

Delude yourself into clicking the clicky

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff




1 Chicago 91.8 16.2 23.3 32.6 74.3 53.9 49.0 52.3 104.5 95.3
2 Boston 92.6 17.0 25.7 19.7 72.4 47.3 49.6 53.5 98.9 95.5
3 Philadelphia 91.9 16.2 19.6 24.4 75.2 49.7 48.0 51.1 101.7 96.6
4 Miami 93.7 14.3 25.3 26.6 73.9 51.1 50.5 54.9 104.3 97.1
5 New York 95.7 14.0 25.9 26.7 73.7 49.9 49.2 53.3 101.4 98.4

RC3
07-24-2012, 07:05 PM
Delude yourself into clicking the clicky

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff




1 Chicago 91.8 16.2 23.3 32.6 74.3 53.9 49.0 52.3 104.5 95.3
2 Boston 92.6 17.0 25.7 19.7 72.4 47.3 49.6 53.5 98.9 95.5
3 Philadelphia 91.9 16.2 19.6 24.4 75.2 49.7 48.0 51.1 101.7 96.6
4 Miami 93.7 14.3 25.3 26.6 73.9 51.1 50.5 54.9 104.3 97.1
5 New York 95.7 14.0 25.9 26.7 73.7 49.9 49.2 53.3 101.4 98.4

Who cares. Those are made up stats. :rolleyes:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2012.html

The knicks defense was better than last year. The only thing that was bad is the offense.

TeamSeattle
07-24-2012, 07:10 PM
Delude yourself into clicking the clicky

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff




1 Chicago 91.8 16.2 23.3 32.6 74.3 53.9 49.0 52.3 104.5 95.3
2 Boston 92.6 17.0 25.7 19.7 72.4 47.3 49.6 53.5 98.9 95.5
3 Philadelphia 91.9 16.2 19.6 24.4 75.2 49.7 48.0 51.1 101.7 96.6
4 Miami 93.7 14.3 25.3 26.6 73.9 51.1 50.5 54.9 104.3 97.1
5 New York 95.7 14.0 25.9 26.7 73.7 49.9 49.2 53.3 101.4 98.4

The man has a point here

NYkillaPriest
07-24-2012, 07:10 PM
does it matter what other teams fans believe about the Knicks defense. You can look at the stats and there is no way you would be able to justify calling the Knicks defense anything but good.

top 10 all season. closer to 5 so how again is there no way they can be top 5. Yall are still living in the past and fail to realize how good the knicks were on defense this season.

justinnum1
07-24-2012, 07:12 PM
Nobody will care if Knicks are top "Whatever" if they get bounced in the first or even second round next season. I'll only be impressed if they make the ECF with that roster. Very capable, but can they put it together enough to defeat the likes of Chicago, Indiana, Boston, and Miami? We shall see. Season can't start soon enough...

seriously

jam
07-24-2012, 07:30 PM
Good luck with Amare on the front line:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-SwkUhusZwTE/T1lgvWPLP0I/AAAAAAAAAAg/jSFuF-1A6SI/s480/Defense1.gif

I'm sure Kidd and Fat Felton are going to tear it up on D too.

PS: help defense looks amazing, too. They're all stepping up to take a charge! Could've sworn Battier was in the lineup that night.

justinnum1
07-24-2012, 09:04 PM
Good luck with Amare on the front line:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-SwkUhusZwTE/T1lgvWPLP0I/AAAAAAAAAAg/jSFuF-1A6SI/s480/Defense1.gif

I'm sure Kidd and Fat Felton are going to tear it up on D too.

PS: help defense looks amazing, too. They're all stepping up to take a charge! Could've sworn Battier was in the lineup that night.

That's amare's "matador" move.

AndyfromNeptune
07-25-2012, 09:32 AM
That's amare's "matador" move.

You know you're looking at one play? Let's look an entire game.

Playoffs. Carmelo Anthony. 41 points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-1viVZcjKc

AndyfromNeptune
07-25-2012, 09:32 AM
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff

To recap...

Half a season of no D "Antoni"

Horrible defensive rotation players in Novak, Fields, Amar'e, Lin, Bibby and supposedly Melo, who actually improved a great deal under Woodson.

We lost like 10 straight, then had another losing streak of like 8 straight.

We were a team of 2 players on defense Tyson and Shumpert and to a lesser degree Jeffries.

And as horrible as you all say we were....

We were the 5th best defensive team in the NBA.

Now add Camby, Felton (who is way better defensively then Lin) and the always rugged Kurt Thomas. Replace Shump with Brewer. Laugh if you will at old *** Jason Kidd but he is stilll a very capable defender even if the rest of his game may have abandoned him (as everyone seems to say, but if he joined any other team im sure they will say hes a great vet. pickup) And hes far superior defensively to Baron, Bibby and Lin. Not All World, but miles better than we had even at his age.

So we were the 5th best defensive team with lesser defenders, no practice time and half a season of Dantoni.

To think this highly improved Knicks defensive rotation of players cant duplicate that or surpass that is just straight hate. And when Shump comes back a lineup of....

Felton
Shump
Brewer
Camby
Tyson

...Is lockdown defense. They may not score many points but when the oppositions offense starts rolling we can throw that at them to slow it to a crawl. This team, as much as most of you hate/dislike it are gonna be one of the better defensive teams in the NBA next year. Oldschool Knicks basketball is coming back to the Garden whether you like it or not. And if we can keep games within 5 points or less going down the stretch Melo will win the game for us.

With better defenders, a full training camp, a full 82 game season with plenty of rest and practice time I expect it to be top 3.

If we were top 5 with the "scrubs" everyone says we had what more can we do with better defenders and more time to learn Woodsons defense?



With the addition of Ronnie Brewer, is it unreasonable to say we can be better than number 5? I think so.

YashBoone
07-25-2012, 09:43 AM
Knicks were ALREADY unexpectedly a really good defensive team last year, AT TIMES.

To be exact, THEY WERE ALREADY A TOP FIVE LAST SEASON.

They Only got better so to anyone saying NO, obviously thinks with something other then a brain.

AndyfromNeptune
07-25-2012, 09:46 AM
Knicks were ALREADY unexpectedly a really good defensive team last year, AT TIMES.

To be exact, THEY WERE ALREADY A TOP FIVE LAST SEASON.

They Only got better so to anyone saying NO, obviously thinks with something other then a brain.

The defensive culture is only going to get more reinforced this year.

Supposedly we were top 2 only under Woodson last year when he took over.

joeystats
07-25-2012, 02:58 PM
Ronnie Brewer helps too

N3TS
07-25-2012, 06:21 PM
The Knicks definitely got better on defence, but I can't put them at a top 5 team yet.

BobbyHillSwag
07-26-2012, 08:23 AM
I guarantee they are top 5 defensively, they are a GREAT defensive team under woodson. Still, they will be offensively challenged to hell because they have no scorers besides melo. Unless, somehow........Amare plays his game :-)

LongIslandIcedZ
07-26-2012, 08:27 AM
The Knicks definitely got better on defence, but I can't put them at a top 5 team yet.

I don't mean to call you out, but for what reason can you not put them there? They were top 5 last year and improved. Where else can they go?

justinnum1
07-26-2012, 11:07 AM
You know you're looking at one play? Let's look an entire game.

Playoffs. Carmelo Anthony. 41 points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-1viVZcjKc

one play that happens often

flclfanman
07-26-2012, 11:07 AM
The starters? HELL NO (unless you're going to start Brewer over Melo)

The bench? MAYBE. A backup squad of Felton/Brewer/Novak/Thomas/Camby can play defense.

D-Leethal
07-26-2012, 11:52 AM
one play that happens often

Amare won't be playing Center as our defensive anchor often. Of course you pick a game Tyson Chandler was injured and our starting frontline was Fields-Melo-Amare.

D-Leethal
07-26-2012, 11:54 AM
This is just a prime example of blind Knicks hate that you guys pretend doesn't exist on this board. Completely ignore facts and just throw out garbage until someone brings up facts and you leave the thread with your tails between your legs.

Justinnum is famous for that.

Knicks were top 5 last season, added numerous very good to excellent defenders at their positions this offseason. Upgraded defensively pretty much everywhere, yet NO WAY were top 5?

GTFO trolls

YashBoone
07-26-2012, 01:14 PM
This is just a prime example of blind Knicks hate that you guys pretend doesn't exist on this board. Completely ignore facts and just throw out garbage until someone brings up facts and you leave the thread with your tails between your legs.

Justinnum is famous for that.

Knicks were top 5 last season, added numerous very good to excellent defenders at their positions this offseason. Upgraded defensively pretty much everywhere, yet NO WAY were top 5?

GTFO trolls

I don't see you get vicious often, but I like it.

ryang
07-26-2012, 01:25 PM
Regular season yea.. Come playoff time I see there D struggling.. Hard to judge the knicks because they had to play the heat in the first round.. That being said I guess but they have alot of older players mixed with melo and amares D so it will be hard to get past the teams necassary to win a title..

mike_noodles
07-26-2012, 01:42 PM
They have two players in their starting 5 that are allergic to defense. IMO, you can't be a top defensive team with that.

ChicagoRox
07-26-2012, 01:43 PM
With a healthy Shump and Amare and Melo on the bench. Yes! Mike Woodson is a great defensive minded coach.

nyKnicks126
07-26-2012, 01:46 PM
I do not like this sterotype that Melo can't defend. Melo can play D, if you actually watch him play. I will say this Melo can hustle and box out really well. Unlike STAT. If Melo wants to he can play D.

Stoudemire is the odd man out.. He is lost on both offense and defense.. But I do think that Felton will bring back that spark and he will get open opportunities from P&R and other plays.

nyKnicks126
07-26-2012, 01:47 PM
I don't get it.. Knicks already were a top defensive team last season.... They will be top 5, no question..

TeamSeattle
07-26-2012, 01:50 PM
I do not like this sterotype that Melo can't defend. Melo can play D, if you actually watch him play. I will say this Melo can hustle and box out really well. Unlike STAT. If Melo wants to he can play D.

Stoudemire is the odd man out.. He is lost on both offense and defense.. But I do think that Felton will bring back that spark and he will get open opportunities from P&R and other plays.

All you'd have to do is watch his Olympic games defense to see he can hold his own for stretches down low and has very quick hands. He's nowhere near the level of STAT on defense but still gets labeled as such.

mike_noodles
07-26-2012, 01:53 PM
Where are people getting that they were a top 5 defensive team last year?

The only thing that matters really is Opp PPG. They were not even in the top 10 last year in that category.

Oh, that's not the category you were looking at, how about Opp FG%? Yeah, 10th in the league last year.

Ahh, rebounding differential must be it. Nope, 16th in the league in that one.

Gotta be blocked shots then right? Ouch, 27th in the league.

Hmm.. What does that leave? Turnovers, you know that's not happening (7th in TO +/-), what's next? Fouls given, not even close.

So how were they a top 5 defensive team last year? Somebody please show me how. (Edit: I'm not trolling either, I really want to know).

D-Leethal
07-26-2012, 01:56 PM
Where are people getting that they were a top 5 defensive team last year?

The only thing that matters really is Opp PPG. They were not even in the top 10 last year in that category.

Oh, that's not the category you were looking at, how about Opp FG%? Yeah, 10th in the league last year.

Ahh, rebounding differential must be it. Nope, 16th in the league in that one.

Gotta be blocked shots then right? Ouch, 27th in the league.

Hmm.. What does that leave? Turnovers, you know that's not happening (7th in TO +/-), what's next? Fouls given, not even close.

So how were they a top 5 defensive team last year? Somebody please show me how.

What are you 12 years old? Still living in 2001? Those stats you listed above are completely irrelevant at this point in time.

How about adjusting for pace? Points per 100 possessions? Defensive Rating?

Do yourself a favor and brush up on your modern statistical knowledge - and I'm nowhere near a stat guy.

D-Leethal
07-26-2012, 01:58 PM
Regular season yea.. Come playoff time I see there D struggling.. Hard to judge the knicks because they had to play the heat in the first round.. That being said I guess but they have alot of older players mixed with melo and amares D so it will be hard to get past the teams necassary to win a title..

So our D for 66 games is top 5 but you choose to judge based on 5 games against the champs? After our best perimeter defender tore his ACL? Thats reasonable :facepalm:

Its also hard to play solid D when you can't score, that was more of our problem in the playoffs than our D. Too many turnovers and missed shots that turn into fast breaks dunks for the Heat.

ModernDaySavage
07-26-2012, 01:59 PM
a few things one, please stop starting these threads especially in the nba forum section, two people can't wait to hate on the knicks for a few reasons one is its the new york knicks people are jealous of new york and two us fans give them more and more material....we have to stop giving them a reason to hate. Someone here made a point saying they actually finished 5th last year...i didnt no that but i'm not suprised....melo played the most defense last season then he did in any other season lets be honest...amare is lost but hey he is honest never was taught....someone said felton, kidd and some other knicks were useless on defense..not true felton is pretty damn tuff defender so is kidd....adding camby and kurt sures up our paint....when we get iman we should be set at the wings lets be realistic i think we have a great chance at being a top 5 team defensively (no homer).

You are truly an idiot, YOU are the reason people hate on NY. It's just hilarious how you are breaking down why others hate on the Knicks, when you are too blind to see what the real problem is. No one gives a **** about your city when discussing a basketball team, that's why you get so much unwanted hated.

meloman1592
07-26-2012, 02:00 PM
The notion that Melo can't play D is stupid...and whoever believes it is also stupid...take it personal idc. You can question his defensive effort at times, not his ability. Amare is the one who seems like he can't play D.

D-Leethal
07-26-2012, 02:02 PM
Where are people getting that they were a top 5 defensive team last year?

The only thing that matters really is Opp PPG. They were not even in the top 10 last year in that category.

Oh, that's not the category you were looking at, how about Opp FG%? Yeah, 10th in the league last year.

Ahh, rebounding differential must be it. Nope, 16th in the league in that one.

Gotta be blocked shots then right? Ouch, 27th in the league.

Hmm.. What does that leave? Turnovers, you know that's not happening (7th in TO +/-), what's next? Fouls given, not even close.

So how were they a top 5 defensive team last year? Somebody please show me how. (Edit: I'm not trolling either, I really want to know).

Here you go genius. Since your not trolling I will give you some help with your homework assignment.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#def_rtg
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2012.html
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff

Stone age is over bruh, saying PPG is the only stat that matters makes you sound young and stupid. Just a heads up....

ryang
07-26-2012, 02:05 PM
but if you give up alot of PPG then your D either sucks or you turn it over to much and your d cannot recover... Either way your D is nothng to be scared of..

Weezy
07-26-2012, 02:06 PM
Here you go genius. Since your not trolling I will give you some help with your homework assignment.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#def_rtg
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2012.html
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff

Stone age is over bruh, saying PPG is the only stat that matters makes you sound young and stupid. Just a heads up....

:laugh2: I was about to respond to his post but you did it. Thank you :) :clap:

TeamSeattle
07-26-2012, 02:08 PM
but if you give up alot of PPG then your D either sucks or you turn it over to much and your d cannot recover... Either way your D is nothng to be scared of..

I always feel like the people who i disagree with most are the ones who ignore blatant facts and evidence and simply spout constant opinion based upon perceived notions.

ryang
07-26-2012, 02:10 PM
So our D for 66 games is top 5 but you choose to judge based on 5 games against the champs? After our best perimeter defender tore his ACL? Thats reasonable :facepalm:

Its also hard to play solid D when you can't score, that was more of our problem in the playoffs than our D. Too many turnovers and missed shots that turn into fast breaks dunks for the Heat.

Bro your D wasnt top 5 last year against elite teams period.. In the playoffs if you care about advancing you"ll have to play good D and solid O something your team hasnt done yet.. When they do your up there on D.. And shump doesnt scare anybody... He couldnt shut wade down before and thats all we can go on.. Maybe after his knee heals he can figure it out but until then he went down after you were down by 30

Weezy
07-26-2012, 02:10 PM
but if you give up alot of PPG then your D either sucks or you turn it over to much and your d cannot recover... Either way your D is nothng to be scared of..

Opponents PPG was 94.7 which was 11th in the league last year. And this is with Mike D coaching half the season for us. I am not sure where you are going with this post.....without facts.

It's not that far-fetched to believe Knicks can be top 5 in defense.

Weezy
07-26-2012, 02:12 PM
Bro your D wasnt top 5 last year against elite teams period.. In the playoffs if you care about advancing you"ll have to play good D and solid O something your team hasnt done yet.. When they do your up there on D.. And shump doesnt scare anybody... He couldnt shut wade down before and thats all we can go on.. Maybe after his knee heals he can figure it out but until then he went down after you were down by 30

You got a link or source for this? Are you just making **** up or just stating your own opinion?

D-Leethal
07-26-2012, 02:18 PM
Bro your D wasnt top 5 last year against elite teams period.. In the playoffs if you care about advancing you"ll have to play good D and solid O something your team hasnt done yet.. When they do your up there on D.. And shump doesnt scare anybody... He couldnt shut wade down before and thats all we can go on.. Maybe after his knee heals he can figure it out but until then he went down after you were down by 30

Yea I'd love to see if Miami's D help up to its normal standards against elite teams too.

Don't worry, I'm not expecting you to actually get some facts to back your claims. Thats too much to ask.

Oh and lets just pretend that because something happens in 1 game that means it will repeat itself every other game.

If thats the case you guys would have got whooped on by Indiana a few more times wouldn't it?

Or since LeBron James choked his *** off 2x in the finals that means he most definitely would have done it again his 3rd time right? Good thing your logic holds true to many scenarios.

And if you actually watched the games this season, they ran screens on Shump nearly everytime he was on Wade, and the last game of the regular season vs Heat I believe Shump stole his cookies 3 or 4 times and even 2x on one play.

Oh yea this is probably why they would screen him everytime: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1PNrIu2bEU

D-Leethal
07-26-2012, 02:21 PM
but if you give up alot of PPG then your D either sucks or you turn it over to much and your d cannot recover... Either way your D is nothng to be scared of..

Never heard of pace I guess huh?

Here I will help you out, you can get a little homework assignment:

Play faster pace = more possessions for BOTH teams
more possessions = more shots for BOTH teams
more shots = more points for BOTH teams


Theres a little Pace 101 for you Heat fans that just started watching NBA 2 years ago.

Knicks pace = 5th in the NBA = more PPG for the opponent

bedford1829
07-26-2012, 02:26 PM
People need to take both anti-knick and pro-knick emotion out of the equation here.

Im a Knicks fan but here are The facts...

1. Woodson replacing D'antoni changed the focus of the team and although they didnt play elite defense they certainly improved substantially on the defensive side with Woodson in charge.

2. The presence of strong interior defenders will help to make up for weak perimeter defense especially when compensating for dribble penetration.

3. With Camby, Thomas, Chandler, Stoudemire, Melo, and Kidd (strong perimeter rebounder) the team should be improved on the glass. Limiting teams to one shot will improve their defensive effeciency.

4. They still have Stat and Melo who although improved at times are not competent defenders. They will ultimately limit the team's defensive ceiling.

5. Their best perimeter defender (Shump) is out til January which will be a big hit to the defense

With these facts in mind, I believe its fair to say the Knicks have the potential to be a Top 5 defensive team in the East (Top 10 in NBA). Thats nothing to be ashamed of. They will be an improved defensive team but not in the elite category.

Captain Moroni
07-26-2012, 02:41 PM
Yes the Knicks can be a top 5 nba defensive team.

JesusNYY_Savior
07-26-2012, 02:48 PM
shumps out till january, but we replaced him with brewer and he is a very good defender also. just imagine a lineup of felton, shump, brewer, melo, chandler.. that is a very good defensive team. the only whole would be melo but he guards the four well enough to pass

nycsports2
07-26-2012, 02:53 PM
maybe.. it depends on the health of shump imo

BobbyHillSwag
07-26-2012, 03:06 PM
Damn I keep forgetting about shump, hell yea...... Knicks gonna be good barring injuries

NYCEVO8
07-26-2012, 03:21 PM
Bro your D wasnt top 5 last year against elite teams period.. In the playoffs if you care about advancing you"ll have to play good D and solid O something your team hasnt done yet.. When they do your up there on D.. And shump doesnt scare anybody... He couldnt shut wade down before and thats all we can go on.. Maybe after his knee heals he can figure it out but until then he went down after you were down by 30

If you honestly think Shump doesn't scare anyone your nuts. He is the only person i've ever seen lock up D Rose (Well contained is a better word)

And this is what he did to your boy in just a few Seconds really, He isn't one of the best on ball defenders in the league

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1PNrIu2bEU&feature=related

AndyfromNeptune
07-26-2012, 03:22 PM
People need to take both anti-knick and pro-knick emotion out of the equation here.

Im a Knicks fan but here are The facts...

1. Woodson replacing D'antoni changed the focus of the team and although they didnt play elite defense they certainly improved substantially on the defensive side with Woodson in charge.

2. The presence of strong interior defenders will help to make up for weak perimeter defense especially when compensating for dribble penetration.

3. With Camby, Thomas, Chandler, Stoudemire, Melo, and Kidd (strong perimeter rebounder) the team should be improved on the glass. Limiting teams to one shot will improve their defensive effeciency.

4. They still have Stat and Melo who although improved at times are not competent defenders. They will ultimately limit the team's defensive ceiling.

5. Their best perimeter defender (Shump) is out til January which will be a big hit to the defense

With these facts in mind, I believe its fair to say the Knicks have the potential to be a Top 5 defensive team in the East (Top 10 in NBA). Thats nothing to be ashamed of. They will be an improved defensive team but not in the elite category.

If the Knicks were number 5 in defense last year, I consider that elite. Don't you?

And if they improve next year, they would ranked 1, 2, 3, or 4th as they were number 5 last year.

skylineblitzr35
07-26-2012, 03:23 PM
No way knicks fans over rated there team every year and get no where but crushed in the playoffs lmao

AndyfromNeptune
07-26-2012, 03:23 PM
If 91 people that voted no can please explain why the Knicks cannot repeat their performance as a top 5 team last year, please explain it to me. Because, yes, they were a top 5 defensive team last year. They were number 5.

They were number five.

Ellos son numero cinco.

How many different ways should I say it?

AndyfromNeptune
07-26-2012, 03:25 PM
*number five* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap*


defen5e ! Defen5e ! Defen5e !

Rapsjaysleafs
07-26-2012, 03:25 PM
Any team with Melo and Stat in their starting 5 are not a top 5 defensive team

Id say this is pretty much a given

AndyfromNeptune
07-26-2012, 03:26 PM
Because I could understand if you think they would get worse under a coach noted for his defensive schemes as opposed to the majority of the games coached under Mike D'antoni...oh wait..they would potentially get better ??

Awks...

AndyfromNeptune
07-26-2012, 03:27 PM
Any team with Melo and Stat in their starting 5 are not a top 5 defensive team

Id say this is pretty much a given

Given your opinion or the statistics that say the Knicks were the number 5 defensive team in the league last year?

I'm curious. Please elaborate.

AndyfromNeptune
07-26-2012, 03:28 PM
Any team with Melo and Stat in their starting 5 are not a top 5 defensive team

Id say this is pretty much a given

Also, how is Carmelo Anthony a bad defender? Have you watched any of the Olympic exhibition games? He's better than Durant rebounds great in traffic ..is guarding 3's, 4's, and 5's.

And yes, Coach K trusts him guarding bigger guys than Lebron James. Carmelo Anthony actually embraces contact.

Becks2307
07-26-2012, 03:29 PM
Any team with Melo and Stat in their starting 5 are not a top 5 defensive team

Id say this is pretty much a given

Lol forget stats, when it comes to the knicks opinion is everything.

TeamSeattle
07-26-2012, 03:30 PM
Lol forget stats, when it comes to the knicks opinion is everything.

the leading consensus on PSD

skylineblitzr35
07-26-2012, 03:38 PM
if 91 people that voted no can please explain why the knicks cannot repeat their performance as a top 5 team last year, please explain it to me. Because, yes, they were a top 5 defensive team last year. They were number 5.

They were number five.

Ellos son numero cinco.

How many different ways should i say it?

what was the knicks top 5 in opp shot pct no they were 10th 0.442. In opp scoring no there were 11th 94.65. If your talking about ppg diff they were 8th so i dont know what ur saying there 5th in defensive

AndyfromNeptune
07-26-2012, 03:43 PM
what was the knicks top 5 in opp shot pct no they were 10th 0.442. In opp scoring no there were 11th 94.65. If your talking about ppg diff they were 8th so i dont know what ur saying there 5th in defensive

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff


I'm assuming you and 90 other posters will switch their votes now?

AndyfromNeptune
07-26-2012, 03:45 PM
I'll admit some of the Knicks hate on this forum is warranted due to the amount of threads about us, although that is expected considering I think we are the largest fan base on PSD. (someone please mistake me if I'm wrong..either way I know for a fact we are definitely top 3) but to blatantly ignore facts is something else.

We were number 5. Based on our pickups and our new coach, we can improve.

skylineblitzr35
07-26-2012, 03:50 PM
Defensive Efficiency - the number of points a team allows per 100 possessions.

IF A TEAMS IS BEATING ON OTHER TEAM MOST ON THE TIME STARTER GET TAKING OUT AT THE END OF GAME AN THE 20 POINT LEAD IS ONLY 6 AT THE END SO THAT MEANS NOTHING THE DEFENSIVE PER GAME IS THE TRUTH

GETTING 26 TURNOVERS PER 100 IS GOOD FOR DEFENSIVE TO RITE

THIS IS DEFENSIVE http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/defense-per-game

carruthers32
07-26-2012, 03:54 PM
Lmao!!! Hellllsss no!!!!

HuRRiCaNeS324
07-26-2012, 04:03 PM
So funny how knick fans are trying to make their team look better than it is. It makes them look that much worse...

LongIslandIcedZ
07-26-2012, 04:15 PM
So funny how knick fans are trying to make their team look better than it is. It makes them look that much worse...

Can you elabborate?

I assume the last four pages are Knicks fans arguing with troll fans, so I wont bother wasting my time.

But can you explain why you think the Knicks have no chance of being a top 5defensive team. They were top 5 last year, thats a fact. They pretty much improved defensively everywhere except for the Shumpert injury, which he will recover from. I just want to hear why its so inconceivable that the Knicks could duplicate what they did last year with a better squad.

Blitzbolt
07-26-2012, 04:17 PM
Knicks+top 5=LOL

ryang
07-26-2012, 04:23 PM
I think knick fans are confused... You keep saying show me some facts show me some facts.. Did you guys watch the same series I did? You got steam rolled.. Your D looked lost and your off looked like a 3 point contest... Your kidding yourself if you think youll shut any contenders down IN THE PLAYOFFS.. So back to my first statement "Maybe in the regular season but NOT in the PLAYOFFS"..

Here are some facts... Miami owns you.. You cant get past us with the old men you have added period... Shumpert?? I dont care if we ran screens bottom line is he made a few good plays against wade in the REGULAR SEASON but still got torched... He is not an elite defender YET so to you and boston nation who thinks bradley and shumpert stand any chance holding wade down in the PLAYOFFS alls I can say is atleast wait until they do it.. Sorry your all star rookie got hurt his first year.. hopefully for you that trend dosnt continue but stop all this nonsence.. Your D is really not that good.. Have fun with your stats bottom line is the celtics, thunder and Heat will run circles around you.. So I guess top 5 in the REGULAR SEASON is fair..

Stop with the injury talk.. Shump went down and you were down by 30.. (one game i know but what about the prvious 4??) B.davis is garbage (again you were down 3-0 in that series).. Lin?? what team is he on now?? Sorry chandler had a cold lmao

ryang
07-26-2012, 04:25 PM
Can you elabborate?

I assume the last four pages are Knicks fans arguing with troll fans, so I wont bother wasting my time.

But can you explain why you think the Knicks have no chance of being a top 5defensive team. They were top 5 last year, thats a fact. They pretty much improved defensively everywhere except for the Shumpert injury, which he will recover from. I just want to hear why its so inconceivable that the Knicks could duplicate what they did last year with a better squad.

So last year you had a top 5 d??? right.. Lets pretend you were to 5.. What was your O?? You were a 500 ball club all year.. (stop with woodson)... So if your d was top 5 and your O was somewhat good wouldnt you have had a better record?? Just not adding up...

skylineblitzr35
07-26-2012, 04:27 PM
But i do give it to the knicks they were 27th per game for 3 years in a row then they got to 11th good for them maybe them 40 year olds can help them get in the top ten for the first time in 14 years

skylineblitzr35
07-26-2012, 04:29 PM
D was 11th this dude who made this thread is a ******

AndyfromNeptune
07-26-2012, 04:29 PM
I think knick fans are confused... You keep saying show me some facts show me some facts.. Did you guys watch the same series I did? You got steam rolled.. Your D looked lost and your off looked like a 3 point contest... Your kidding yourself if you think youll shut any contenders down IN THE PLAYOFFS.. So back to my first statement "Maybe in the regular season but NOT in the PLAYOFFS"..

Here are some facts... Miami owns you.. You cant get past us with the old men you have added period... Shumpert?? I dont care if we ran screens bottom line is he made a few good plays against wade in the REGULAR SEASON but still got torched... He is not an elite defender YET so to you and boston nation who thinks bradley and shumpert stand any chance holding wade down in the PLAYOFFS alls I can say is atleast wait until they do it.. Sorry your all star rookie got hurt his first year.. hopefully for you that trend dosnt continue but stop all this nonsence.. Your D is really not that good.. Have fun with your stats bottom line is the celtics, thunder and Heat will run circles around you.. So I guess top 5 in the REGULAR SEASON is fair..

Stop with the injury talk.. Shump went down and you were down by 30.. (one game i know but what about the prvious 4??) B.davis is garbage (again you were down 3-0 in that series).. Lin?? what team is he on now?? Sorry chandler had a cold lmao

I am the OP of this thread. The thread is asking about the Knicks being a top 5 defensive team in the regular season--not the playoffs ( a very small sample size )

As for the Miami series, the Heat won the championship. They were the best team in the league. The Knicks and the Thunder only one a game each.

That being said, this thread is about top 5...not the best.

Please try to stay on topic.

Toxeryll
07-26-2012, 04:30 PM
they will be top 10, top 5 is a stretch IMO

LongIslandIcedZ
07-26-2012, 04:31 PM
So last year you had a top 5 d??? right.. Lets pretend you were to 5.. What was your O?? You were a 500 ball club all year.. (stop with woodson)... So if your d was top 5 and your O was somewhat good wouldnt you have had a better record?? Just not adding up...

The question has absolutely nothing to do with offense. The Knicks were a top 5 team in defensive efficiency, giving up less points on a per possession basis than 25 other teams, that isnt my opinion. It happened. And for argument sake, lets say the Knicks were somewhere in the 6-10 range with respect to defense, which I dont think anyone would argue. Would their defensive additions make them a top 5 defense?

Anyone that watched the Knicks play last season knows how much they underachieved under D'Antoni. It seems silly that I even have to say it, the record speaks for itself. Once Woodson took over, they played excellent basketball going 18-6, with one of the best defenses in the league.

Lets be real, they got owned in the playoffs. But they got owned by the eventual champions, who owned everyone in their path besides the Celtics. It's one thing to argue because you dont like the pompous attitude of certain Knick fans, but dont go discrediting facts because they lost in 5 to Champion Miami Heat.

skylineblitzr35
07-26-2012, 04:31 PM
If you cannt do it in the playoffs then theres no point to do it at all plsyoffs is all the matters

skylineblitzr35
07-26-2012, 04:33 PM
ALL TO SAY http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/ny/new-york-knicks
WHERE IN 5TH THIS GUY IS ON SOME OVERRATED ****

ryang
07-26-2012, 04:35 PM
The question has absolutely nothing to do with offense. The Knicks were a top 5 team in defensive efficiency, giving up less points on a per possession basis than 25 other teams, that isnt my opinion. It happened. And for argument sake, lets say the Knicks were somewhere in the 6-10 range with respect to defense, which I dont think anyone would argue. Would their defensive additions make them a top 5 defense?

Anyone that watched the Knicks play last season knows how much they underachieved under D'Antoni. It seems silly that I even have to say it, the record speaks for itself. Once Woodson took over, they played excellent basketball going 18-6, with one of the best defenses in the league.

Lets be real, they got owned in the playoffs. But they got owned by the eventual champions, who owned everyone in their path besides the Celtics. It's one thing to argue because you dont like the pompous attitude of certain Knick fans, but dont go discrediting facts because they lost in 5 to Champion Miami Heat.

I hear you but the whole per postion thing is a dumb arguement to me.. Granted it makes sence but if you give up 100 a game does it matter how it happens?? Do free throws count as per possesion??

LongIslandIcedZ
07-26-2012, 04:37 PM
I hear you but the whole per postion thing is a dumb arguement to me.. Granted it makes sence but if you give up 100 a game does it matter how it happens?? Do free throws count as per possesion??

I would imagine free throws count towards the possession that the foul was made in, but I cant be sure because I am new to this. Points per possession essentially adjusts the game for pace. It eliminates the advantage that like the 7 second offense had. Sure you score more points, but if you do it on twice as many shots, your actually playing inefficiently.

ryang
07-26-2012, 04:39 PM
PPG is all that matters.. If you feel differently cool but if you give up 100 ppg then your not a good defense... How many points per game did you give up?? Turnovers lead to bad d sure but its still bad d

skylineblitzr35
07-26-2012, 04:43 PM
Only thing the knicks do good was the last 30 games yes ther scored 2905 point 96.83 that would only be good for 16th but opp scoring 2782 points 92.73 would be good for 5th.. If thats what your keep talking about then we will see.. Knicks fans stop jinxing your team


AND TO THINK ABOUT IT U Lost To Toronto 79 - 96 Overall: 23-43 and 90 - 98 to Cleveland Overall: 21-45 not so good

LongIslandIcedZ
07-26-2012, 04:43 PM
PPG is all that matters.. If you feel differently cool but if you give up 100 ppg then your not a good defense... How many points per game did you give up?? Turnovers lead to bad d sure but its still bad d

Well I suppose since they were 10th in PPG, giving up only 2 more PPG than the Heat, combining that with defensive efficiency, they must be pretty close to 5.

streetsmarts13
07-26-2012, 04:47 PM
I am a Knicks fan and say no. Also the knicks are not a good team. I dont understand why my fellow knick fans think they have a shot to win it all. Not happening. The Knicks will never win with Melo.

NYCEVO8
07-26-2012, 05:01 PM
I am a Knicks fan and say no. Also the knicks are not a good team. I dont understand why my fellow knick fans think they have a shot to win it all. Not happening. The Knicks will never win with Melo.

Knick fan or not take the time to read the ? ASKED. Strictly Defense talk right now

YashBoone
07-26-2012, 05:49 PM
I am a Knicks fan and say no. Also the knicks are not a good team. I dont understand why my fellow knick fans think they have a shot to win it all. Not happening. The Knicks will never win with Melo.

Why do you say NO?

streetsmarts13
07-26-2012, 06:03 PM
Knick fan or not take the time to read the ? ASKED. Strictly Defense talk right now

I did and answered that question and added my opinion on the team. If you dont like it owell. The truth hurts.

Chronz
07-26-2012, 06:07 PM
PPG is all that matters.. If you feel differently cool but if you give up 100 ppg then your not a good defense... How many points per game did you give up?? Turnovers lead to bad d sure but its still bad d
GMs, statisticians disagree. Per possession is more important

streetsmarts13
07-26-2012, 06:08 PM
Why do you say NO?

Cause Camby and Kid are old and at the end of there careers so in my opinion they didnt make us better. Shump is out for a while which will hurt. Melo and amare dont do defense. Felton is just average defender.

YashBoone
07-26-2012, 06:14 PM
Cause Camby and Kid are old and at the end of there careers so in my opinion they didnt make us better. Shump is out for a while which will hurt. Melo and amare dont do defense. Felton is just average defender.

Do you watch basketball?

IBleedPurple
07-26-2012, 06:16 PM
PPG is all that matters.. If you feel differently cool but if you give up 100 ppg then your not a good defense... How many points per game did you give up?? Turnovers lead to bad d sure but its still bad d

PPG can be misleading though depending on the offense being ran. A fast paced team may give up more PPG, but score more and give up lower points per possession. Not saying that's a winning model, but ppg is not the end-all/be-all

AndyfromNeptune
07-26-2012, 06:35 PM
The Knicks were the 5th best defense in the league last year.

Can they repeat?

seikou8
07-26-2012, 06:52 PM
haters gonna hate

WhiteSoxGod
07-26-2012, 06:54 PM
LOL no......ha ha...hilarious....no not at all.

D-Leethal
07-26-2012, 07:48 PM
I hear you but the whole per postion thing is a dumb arguement to me.. Granted it makes sence but if you give up 100 a game does it matter how it happens?? Do free throws count as per possesion??

You have a very limited understanding of statistics, what they mean, and basketball in general. This is coming from somehow who has a pretty limited understanding of statistics myself, but your just on a whole nother level of noob.


PPG is all that matters.. If you feel differently cool but if you give up 100 ppg then your not a good defense... How many points per game did you give up?? Turnovers lead to bad d sure but its still bad d

If you score 120 points and give up 100 thats bad defense? So if there are 10-15 extra possessions due to pace in a game your supposed to hold the team to same score you would with 10-15 less possessions? How do you not understand how incredibly flawed ppg is?


GMs, statisticians disagree. Per possession is more important

Thank you. I don't understand whats difficult to understand about pace. Its pretty much common sense and logic in its most basic form.


LOL no......ha ha...hilarious....no not at all.

This is prime example of NBA forum baseless garbage. Knicks fans present stats to back our claims, you guys refute with one-liners.

The dude who said it before was right, when it comes to the Knicks throw stats out the window, opinion and one liners become fact.

D-Leethal
07-26-2012, 08:01 PM
Empty one-liners and ancient flawed stats are really all you guys got?

ryang
07-26-2012, 09:53 PM
leethal.. Stop calling people out when your clueless.. I dont judge everything by stats alone .. That being said if you feel your defense is great then your just a homer... I watched every knick game I could and from what I saw your no where near an elite defense.. Sorry if that bothers you.. Also your whole we score 120 they score 100 is false because your Offense isnt good let alone great..

I could care less about stats.. That being said your DEFENSIVE and offensive stats arent great.. Your a 500 ball club until proven otherwise.. I do feel the knicks will be a top 3 team in the east this year though.. But when you play us your D will make you want to punch a fire ext...

justinnum1
07-26-2012, 09:57 PM
leethal.. Stop calling people out when your clueless.. I dont judge everything by stats alone .. That being said if you feel your defense is great then your just a homer... I watched every knick game I could and from what I saw your no where near an elite defense.. Sorry if that bothers you.. Also your whole we score 120 they score 100 is false because your Offense isnt good let alone great..

I could care less about stats.. That being said your DEFENSIVE and offensive stats arent great.. Your a 500 ball club until proven otherwise.. I do feel the knicks will be a top 3 team in the east this year though.. But when you play us your D will make you want to punch a fire ext...
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Robbw241
07-26-2012, 09:59 PM
2012-2013 Knicks or 1992 Dream Team? GO

ryang
07-26-2012, 10:01 PM
Empty one-liners and ancient flawed stats are really all you guys got?

No there is more... Your D cant stop a nose bleed.. You know why? Its because the past 2 years in the playoffs teams have scored at will.. Have you watched?? Or were you busy reading the points per possesion?? There is a whole lot more to team defense then you think.. The only stat you throw out is points per possesion.. Every other defensive category says your d is nothing special..

YashBoone
07-26-2012, 10:02 PM
leethal.. Stop calling people out when your clueless.. I dont judge everything by stats alone .. That being said if you feel your defense is great then your just a homer... I watched every knick game I could and from what I saw your no where near an elite defense.. Sorry if that bothers you.. Also your whole we score 120 they score 100 is false because your Offense isnt good let alone great..

I could care less about stats.. That being said your DEFENSIVE and offensive stats arent great.. Your a 500 ball club until proven otherwise.. I do feel the knicks will be a top 3 team in the east this year though.. But when you play us your D will make you want to punch a fire ext...

No one said we were a great defensive team last year, but just like every other heat fan who has no fuxking clue, but calls out Knicks fans for being idiots,
You miss the point, get owned, and ignore the facts.....

Knicks last year alone went from being one of the worst the year before to a top 5 defensive team....
That's one year and woody did what he came here to do....

Now we have signed better defenders and have the same defensive minded coach, so logic follows that we will only inprove....It's obvious that that's what we are PURPOSLEY trying to do this off season.

Again, we weren't great, in fact horrible some games, but going from damn near the worst, to one of the better defensive teams is huge.

knicksfan42
07-26-2012, 10:02 PM
You have a very limited understanding of statistics, what they mean, and basketball in general. This is coming from somehow who has a pretty limited understanding of statistics myself, but your just on a whole nother level of noob.



If you score 120 points and give up 100 thats bad defense? So if there are 10-15 extra possessions due to pace in a game your supposed to hold the team to same score you would with 10-15 less possessions? How do you not understand how incredibly flawed ppg is?



Thank you. I don't understand whats difficult to understand about pace. Its pretty much common sense and logic in its most basic form.



This is prime example of NBA forum baseless garbage. Knicks fans present stats to back our claims, you guys refute with one-liners.

The dude who said it before was right, when it comes to the Knicks throw stats out the window, opinion and one liners become fact.

Great post D.

Chronz
07-26-2012, 10:03 PM
leethal.. Stop calling people out when your clueless.. I dont judge everything by stats alone .. That being said if you feel your defense is great then your just a homer... I watched every knick game I could and from what I saw your no where near an elite defense.. Sorry if that bothers you.. Also your whole we score 120 they score 100 is false because your Offense isnt good let alone great..

I could care less about stats.. That being said your DEFENSIVE and offensive stats arent great.. Your a 500 ball club until proven otherwise.. I do feel the knicks will be a top 3 team in the east this year though.. But when you play us your D will make you want to punch a fire ext...
They are better than .500 with a mediocre offense BECAUSE their defense is great.

And no one cares about what you saw, you didnt watch all 82 games from every team in the league, nor could your brain adequately rank and assess all 30 teams in proper order. Watch, go ahead and try to tell us which teams had a better defense than the Knicks. Im willing to bet you will revert to looking at stats, the only difference between us, is you'll be the one using the stats that have been left behind by people in the business.

The facts are, offensive and defensive efficiency determine how many games you win, the Knicks couldnt be a +.500 team with a middling offense without a strong defense.

ryang
07-26-2012, 10:08 PM
No one said we were a great defensive team last year, but just like every other heat fan who has no fuxking clue, but calls out Knicks fans for being idiots,
You miss the point, get owned, and ignore the facts.....

Knicks last year alone went from being one of the worst the year before to a top 5 defensive team....
That's one year and woody did what he came here to do....

Now we have signed better defenders and have the same defensive minded coach, so logic follows that we will only inprove....It's obvious that that's what we are PURPOSLEY trying to do this off season.

Again, we weren't great, in fact horrible some games, but going from damn near the worst, to one of the better defensive teams is huge.


Where does it say you were top 5?? Real question.. Besides ppp what else represented top 5?? You keep saying I dont have a clue but I watched your knicks last year and I didnt see a top 5 defense... I saw chandler making fun of his defense then I saw people punching fire ext then I saw another first round exit.. Not sure how camby and brewer change everything... Seriously what else was top 5 about your d?? Maybe you were top 5 in ppp because teams out rebounded you or had a higher steals per game rating.. Maybe It was because the other team had more possesions then you.. who knows.. Its one stat

ryang
07-26-2012, 10:11 PM
They are better than .500 with a mediocre offense BECAUSE their defense is great.

And no one cares about what you saw, you didnt watch all 82 games from every team in the league, nor could your brain adequately rank and assess all 30 teams in proper order. Watch, go ahead and try to tell us which teams had a better defense than the Knicks. Im willing to bet you will revert to looking at stats, the only difference between us, is you'll be the one using the stats that have been left behind by people in the business.

The facts are, offensive and defensive efficiency determine how many games you win, the Knicks couldnt be a +.500 team with a middling offense without a strong defense.

Id argue with you but you end up writing a 14 paragraph statement that I wont read. I dont need stats.. I got Miami , Boston , Indiana , chicago, then the knicks.. Oh wait thats top 5.. I agreed *******.. I just said there d wont be good against elite teams...

YashBoone
07-26-2012, 10:14 PM
I like how you use everything else except real facts to "prove" our defense wasn't top 5, i.e chandler making fun of people, punching fire extinguishers........ What does that have to do with our defense?????

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff

There we are right under your precious "great" Miami defense pretty ****ing similar in every ****ing category..........

Chronz
07-26-2012, 10:15 PM
Where does it say you were top 5?? Real question.. Besides ppp what else represented top 5?? You keep saying I dont have a clue but I watched your knicks last year and I didnt see a top 5 defense... I saw chandler making fun of his defense then I saw people punching fire ext then I saw another first round exit.. Not sure how camby and brewer change everything... Seriously what else was top 5 about your d?? Maybe you were top 5 in ppp because teams out rebounded you or had a higher steals per game rating.. Maybe It was because the other team had more possesions then you.. who knows.. Its one stat

It an all encompassing stat.

Knicks were above league average in 3 of the 4 factors of efficiency (eFG% allowed, D.Rebounding%, and TO%. The last of which they were 2nd best at doing. Their only flaw was that they fouled too often, my guess is it had to do with the scrambling/gambling defense. Having Tyson back there allowed them all to play with more aggression, which led to fast break points but also led to them surrendering a few more open drives.

Overall, name me these clearly better defenses. What makes those other defenses better?

LongIslandIcedZ
07-26-2012, 10:19 PM
Where does it say you were top 5?? Real question.. Besides ppp what else represented top 5?? You keep saying I dont have a clue but I watched your knicks last year and I didnt see a top 5 defense... I saw chandler making fun of his defense then I saw people punching fire ext then I saw another first round exit.. Not sure how camby and brewer change everything... Seriously what else was top 5 about your d?? Maybe you were top 5 in ppp because teams out rebounded you or had a higher steals per game rating.. Maybe It was because the other team had more possesions then you.. who knows.. Its one stat

It an all encompassing stat.

Knicks were above league average in 3 of the 4 factors of efficiency (eFG% allowed, D.Rebounding%, and TO%. The last of which they were 2nd best at doing. Their only flaw was that they fouled too often, my guess is it had to do with the scrambling/gambling defense. Having Tyson back there allowed them all to play with more aggression, which led to fast break points but also led to them surrendering a few more open drives.

Overall, name me these clearly better defenses. What makes those other defenses better?

Oh dear lord. #winning

No point in arguing, he's obviously looking to troll and he has been proved wrong by more than one poster.

ryang
07-26-2012, 10:20 PM
I just told you.. I got HEAT, boston , chicago (healthy rose) , pacers then the knicks..
Yashbone dont say the same as the heat.. We dont play as hard in the regular season.. That should be obvious... Check the playoff stats for details.. maybe id switch knicks over pacers but chicago and boston are far superior on d

YashBoone
07-26-2012, 10:20 PM
And, then you agree that we are top five but not againt elite teams?????.... Lmao.

All good defenses have a harder time with elite teams..... It's fuxking logic.

Besides no one said we don't need to improve.... Improvement is always necessary but the point is that you keep dancing around the fact that's right in front of your face. That the Knicks had a good defensive team last season, made improvents in defensive personnel, which tells you that more then likely we will be an even better defensive team this coming season.

Stop hating, trolling, and whatever else and just except it .....

ryang
07-26-2012, 10:22 PM
Oh dear lord. #winning

No point in arguing, he's obviously looking to troll and he has been proved wrong by more than one poster.

How have I been proved wrong? Think for a second.. I said you were top 5.. But Miami , chicago (healthy rose) and boston are superior on D... Yea you got me.

Chronz
07-26-2012, 10:22 PM
Id argue with you but you end up writing a 14 paragraph statement that I wont read. I dont need stats.. I got Miami , Boston , Indiana , chicago, then the knicks.. Oh wait thats top 5.. I agreed *******.. I just said there d wont be good against elite teams...

Let me guess, you know all this because you saw it. You may be right but I would have more faith in your opinion if you based it on factual data rather than gut instinct.

Tell me, how good was their defense against the elite teams during the regular season compared to their defense vs middling teams?

YashBoone
07-26-2012, 10:23 PM
I just told you.. I got HEAT, boston , chicago (healthy rose) , pacers then the knicks..
Yashbone dont say the same as the heat.. We dont play as hard in the regular season.. That should be obvious... Check the playoff stats for details.. maybe id switch knicks over pacers but chicago and boston are far superior on d

Lol, ok you don't play as hard in regular season... Again, you can say whatever you want to make it seam however you want.... That's on you... I just showed you the numbers. Interpret them however you want.

ryang
07-26-2012, 10:24 PM
And, then you agree that we are top five but not againt elite teams?????.... Lmao.

All good defenses have a harder time with elite teams..... It's fuxking logic.

Besides no one said we don't need to improve.... Improvement is always necessary but the point is that you keep dancing around the fact that's right in front of your face. That the Knicks had a good defensive team last season, made improvents in defensive personnel, which tells you that more then likely we will be an even better defensive team this coming season.

Stop hating, trolling, and whatever else and just except it .....

What are you talking about? I said you were top 5.. I said when you play miami your d will = garbage..

Chronz
07-26-2012, 10:25 PM
I just told you.. I got HEAT, boston , chicago (healthy rose) , pacers then the knicks..
Yashbone dont say the same as the heat.. We dont play as hard in the regular season.. That should be obvious... Check the playoff stats for details.. maybe id switch knicks over pacers but chicago and boston are far superior on d

Why does Rose need to be healthy? Their defense was stronger without him on the court, and even if thats a marginal point, they were still better than the Knicks even with him injured.

Pacers are on the Knicks level, its funny you didnt mention the 76ers, any particular reason you didnt list them?

ryang
07-26-2012, 10:27 PM
Let me guess, you know all this because you saw it. You may be right but I would have more faith in your opinion if you based it on factual data rather than gut instinct.

Tell me, how good was their defense against the elite teams during the regular season compared to their defense vs middling teams?

By midding teams or elite teams who do you mean? I dont need stats or an arguement.. Boston and chicago play better D.. Why type a whole bunch of ****?? You know its true... So what is everybody saying?? the knicks are top 2 on d?? Give me a break.. The knicks offense must be bad seeings how they lose must win games to the cavs having this amazing d..:facepalm:

ryang
07-26-2012, 10:29 PM
Why does Rose need to be healthy? Their defense was stronger without him on the court, and even if thats a marginal point, they were still better than the Knicks even with him injured.

Pacers are on the Knicks level, its funny you didnt mention the 76ers, any particular reason you didnt list them?

I dont like phillys D.. Once you get rolling they cant figure it out.. I also was trying to keep it at 5 teams so a bunch of kids dont pop up saying stay on topic we said top 5...

YashBoone
07-26-2012, 10:32 PM
And, then you agree that we are top five but not againt elite teams?????.... Lmao.

All good defenses have a harder time with elite teams..... It's fuxking logic.

Besides no one said we don't need to improve.... Improvement is always necessary but the point is that you keep dancing around the fact that's right in front of your face. That the Knicks had a good defensive team last season, made improvents in defensive personnel, which tells you that more then likely we will be an even better defensive team this coming season.

Stop hating, trolling, and whatever else and just except it .....

What are you talking about? I said you were top 5.. I said when you play miami your d will = garbage..

Go back and read your posts.... You said "where does it say that the knick where top 5"

ryang
07-26-2012, 10:32 PM
before I started arguing with someone else.. You go ahead and readback youll see it

ryang
07-26-2012, 10:34 PM
I also have said many times the knicks will be a top 3 team in the east.. But it wont matter they just dont have enough IMO..

justinnum1
07-26-2012, 10:34 PM
Why does Rose need to be healthy? Their defense was stronger without him on the court, and even if thats a marginal point, they were still better than the Knicks even with him injured.

Pacers are on the Knicks level, its funny you didnt mention the 76ers, any particular reason you didnt list them?

76ers lost brand who was a major reason they were as good defensively as they were. I would be surprised if they were top 5 defense in the east.

my top 5 defenses in the east are

boston
miami
chicago
NY
indy

I do think there will be a big drop off after chicago. I dont see NY having an elite defense that can get stops at key moments due to the liabilities they have on the floor at the end of games.