PDA

View Full Version : What is the most important aspect of passing?



Chronz
07-22-2012, 04:39 PM
Is it better to be a dynamic playmaker, possess elite vision or be a true blue distributor?


We all have our own terminology but just to be clear, this is what I mean;


A Playmaker doesnt necessarily require elite vision, they are capable of breaking down defenses to the point where an easy pass to an open shooter becomes available. Most of their value comes from the fact that they are such threats to score themselves but they can create simple A to B passes that result in high% looks for teammates.

A Facilitator possesses elite court vision, meaning he can find openings that typically close instantly and create something out of nothing. He doesnt necessarily have to break the defense down, but as soon as he touches the ball he can observe all 9 players on the court, read movement and make the proper pass regardless of difficulty.

A Distributor is someone who is such a threat without the ball that he can share the rock with other ballhandlers and still free them up by virtue of occupying defenders. Their value comes from elite range and/or adept off the ball movement.



Obviously the best passers combine all of the traits above, and rarely do you find PG's lacking completely in any area but to give an example of players who best fit these descriptions, Keep in mind Im only talking about their passing games and which traits I feel they mostly utilize;


Playmaker: Derrick Rose - Quite possibly the greatest drive and kick player of his generation, supremely efficient in PnR and Isolation, defenses have to constantly load up on him, which in turn frees up everyone else.
Stephon Marbury is another example.

Facilitator: Calderon - I wanted to use Steve Nash but hes basically proficient in all 3 areas, Calderon is someone I think fits the bill better. Alil more ball dominant than I like but he basically creates for his teammates by running the offense and delivering timely passes.

Distributor: Chauncey Billups - In his hey he was able to free up perimeter players like Rip-Melo because he could operate in stationary sets with off the ball players trying to get open. He could deliver timely passes and keep defenses honest at all times. Sadly he wasnt much of a PnR player and bigmen generally didnt raise their efficiency with him.

GREATNESS ONE
07-22-2012, 04:43 PM
Basketball IQ.

--23--
07-22-2012, 04:49 PM
I choose a combo of both facilitator & playmaker, another important aspect is basketball IQ.

Chronz
07-22-2012, 04:51 PM
Basketball IQ.

This is a multiple choice question, what you speak of influences all 3 of the above.

SportsFanatic10
07-22-2012, 04:53 PM
it depends on the type of players you have around your point guard. for example if you're the heat you want the distributor, if your the celtics the facilitator, and if you're the bulls the playmaker is the best fit.

topdog
07-22-2012, 05:02 PM
In today's NBA, I would say playmaking is most important. There are fewer balanced teams and far more team with a small collection of stars and a bunch of role players. Having a guy who can break down the defense simply by bursting down the lane and either setting up a 3pt specialist or an offensively challenged big at the rim is of pre-eminent importance.

Personally, I love watching the facilitating aspect, but it doesn't create the same time of scramble that playmaking does, nor does it pose as much of a threat to get the other team in foul trouble - on the PGs drive. Facilitators work best where they have teammates that are good at cutting and finishing.

b@llhog24
07-22-2012, 05:19 PM
Distributor.

kobebabe
07-22-2012, 05:28 PM
distributor?

Hawkeye15
07-22-2012, 05:37 PM
Facilitator for me. Playmakers regress earlier, due to needing athletic ability to create, and facilitators have a skill that never goes away, therefore their shelf life is longer.

ink
07-22-2012, 05:39 PM
Is it better to be a dynamic playmaker, possess elite vision or be a true blue distributor?


We all have our own terminology but just to be clear, this is what I mean;


A Playmaker doesnt necessarily require elite vision, they are capable of breaking down defenses to the point where an easy pass to an open shooter becomes available. Most of their value comes from the fact that they are such threats to score themselves but they can create simple A to B passes that result in high% looks for teammates.

A Facilitator possesses elite court vision, meaning he can find openings that typically close instantly and create something out of nothing. He doesnt necessarily have to break the defense down, but as soon as he touches the ball he can observe all 9 players on the court, read movement and make the proper pass regardless of difficulty.

A Distributor is someone who is such a threat without the ball that he can share the rock with other ballhandlers and still free them up by virtue of occupying defenders. Their value comes from elite range and/or adept off the ball movement.



Obviously the best passers combine all of the traits above, and rarely do you find PG's lacking completely in any area but to give an example of players who best fit these descriptions, Keep in mind Im only talking about their passing games and which traits I feel they mostly utilize;


Playmaker: Derrick Rose - Quite possibly the greatest drive and kick player of his generation, supremely efficient in PnR and Isolation, defenses have to constantly load up on him, which in turn frees up everyone else.
Stephon Marbury is another example.

Facilitator: Calderon - I wanted to use Steve Nash but hes basically proficient in all 3 areas, Calderon is someone I think fits the bill better. Alil more ball dominant than I like but he basically creates for his teammates by running the offense and delivering timely passes.

Distributor: Chauncey Billups - In his hey he was able to free up perimeter players like Rip-Melo because he could operate in stationary sets with off the ball players trying to get open. He could deliver timely passes and keep defenses honest at all times. Sadly he wasnt much of a PnR player and bigmen generally didnt raise their efficiency with him.

This is one of the best threads I've ever seen on PSD. Great ideas lately Chronz, huge props.

Thinking about the thread question ...

I think I pick 2a, the type of player who is capable of all three types of passing. As default I'd pick 2 with the caveat that the decision-making needs to happen more quickly than it does with Calderon.

JollyRanch
07-22-2012, 05:42 PM
For a PG, I want court vision and the ability to facilitate the offense.

Based on typical PG attributes, I don't consider players like Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook to be true PGs but they are instead imo undersized two guards playing the point

Jets012
07-22-2012, 06:08 PM
Excellent question that was really tough to answer. For me it was between two choices, and even though I picked the one, I still am not sure.

If I had to choose a point guard that mastered one of these traits and lacked the other two completely, I would choose a playmaking point guard because they have the biggest impact on the game in my opinion. The problem with me is, I really love point guards that are crafty and have incredible vision. Guys like Nash, Stockton, Kidd, and even Rondo come to mind as pure passers. But if a team had a point guard that consisted of none of the other traits but just the ability to facilitate an offense, then I feel like they would never be better than the team with a playmaking point guard that can not only be a threat to score but set up other people as well. Pretty much that is the problem with Rondo being able to lead a team as opposed to a guy like Rose. So I will have to go with playmaking point guard.

If my point guard consisted of a bit of all 3 traits, then I would want his strong suite to be facilitating.

MintBerryCrunch
07-22-2012, 06:11 PM
In today's game , Playmaker

MrfadeawayJB
07-22-2012, 06:11 PM
Facilitator for all the reasons Hawkeye said

Chronz
07-22-2012, 06:41 PM
Strong points all around, not sure where I stand really, they all seem so vital.

IndyRealist
07-22-2012, 06:53 PM
The playmaker without elite court vision is susceptible to getting trapped in the paint, or forcing the ball out of his hands.
The facilitator isn't a threat to score and defenders will play way off him, daring him to try to score.
The distributor will be played tight, trying to force him to put the ball on the floor where he doesn't have the ability to get by his man.

I'm going to say distributor, mostly to be different. But the other two necessarily dominate the ball, while the distributor is more of a complimentary player. His skillset is best able to play with dominant players at other positions. Dominant big? Dump the ball down low and he's a killer spot up shooter. Dominant wing player? Give him the ball and spot up, or move off-ball for the backdoor cut.

The playmaker would almost have to take turns with a post up big, while the facilitator's defender will cheat off him because he's not a threat to score.

Donuts365
07-22-2012, 06:58 PM
rondo he can do all three

topdog
07-22-2012, 07:01 PM
The playmaker would almost have to take turns with a post up big, while the facilitator's defender will cheat off him because he's not a threat to score.

Are there really that many post up bigs that you're worried about feeding these days? There certainly is a lack of talented centers and often bigs are expected simply to get theirs on put-backs and to challenge attacking playmakers on the other end.

While you can say that a facilitator may not be a huge risk to score, ask teams who cheat off of Rondo how that works for them. When you back off, you allow them even better vision and poise with which to pick you apart.

Kyben36
07-22-2012, 07:10 PM
IDK, they key for me is getting easy baskets for others, whether that is an open 3 on a drive, and pick and role for a layup, you make things easier for the ones around you. thats big for me.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2012, 08:20 PM
Strong points all around, not sure where I stand really, they all seem so vital.

Do you agree that is probably depends on what kind of roster is around them? I personally think that makes a difference. Let's take Rondo or Rubio. They are pure facilitators. That means, they need guys who are always ready, making sharp cuts, and hitting long jumpers to capitalize on the PG's strengths. A playmaker for example is Rose or Westbrook. They can create for others, but their teammates can take their eyes off of them for periods of time when it's obvious they are trying to get their own, but then again, doesn't the defense react the same??

Hawkeye15
07-22-2012, 08:21 PM
just so we are clear a distributor is Reggie Miller/Rip Hamilton/Ray Allen, correct?

Hawkeye15
07-22-2012, 08:22 PM
I really hope this thread is active, it's actually an original idea and not the same crap that litters this board on a daily basis.

Think for once, instead of repeating what the media says.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2012, 08:23 PM
rondo he can do all three

Rondo fits the exact definition of facilitator dude, and is the opposite of a distributor. Nobody cares where he is on the floor when he doesn't have the ball.

John Walls Era
07-22-2012, 08:37 PM
This is one of the best threads I've ever seen on PSD. Great ideas lately Chronz, huge props.

Thinking about the thread question ...

I think I pick 2a, the type of player who is capable of all three types of passing. As default I'd pick 2 with the caveat that the decision-making needs to happen more quickly than it does with Calderon.

Does that say more about PSD or Chronz. Bit of both I guess...

John Walls Era
07-22-2012, 08:38 PM
What would Lebron be? Hes more playmaker, but he also has some of the other traits.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-22-2012, 08:44 PM
I say facilitator.

Lakeshow24KB
07-22-2012, 08:45 PM
Facilitator. Seeing the floor makes it so much easier for your teammates because they might not be so good at getting open but putting the ball at spots where the defense can't reach it is very helpful.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2012, 09:00 PM
What would Lebron be? Hes more playmaker, but he also has some of the other traits.

LeBron has all 3 in him, but if you HAD to peg him, it's playmaker.

Iceman_9
07-22-2012, 09:06 PM
Facilitators.. Ala John Stockton..

blastmasta26
07-22-2012, 09:16 PM
Tough question. I can immediately eliminate distributor though, it just doesn't seem as important as the other two categories. When it comes to playmaker or facilitator, I'm torn. It really depends on the roster around the player in question I would think.

But ignoring that, I'm going with playmaker. Both playmaker and facilitator are ball dominant classifications, but the playmaker would need more off the ball scorers such as shooters and non-post bigs (prevalent nowadays) and the facilitator would need more scorers who can break down the defense. I think it would be easier to start from scratch and build around a playmaker.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2012, 09:28 PM
Tough question. I can immediately eliminate distributor though, it just doesn't seem as important as the other two categories. When it comes to playmaker or facilitator, I'm torn. It really depends on the roster around the player in question I would think.

But ignoring that, I'm going with playmaker. Both playmaker and facilitator are ball dominant classifications, but the playmaker would need more off the ball scorers such as shooters and non-post bigs (prevalent nowadays) and the facilitator would need more scorers who can break down the defense. I think it would be easier to start from scratch and build around a playmaker.

great points honestly. I am re-thinking my stance.

5ass
07-22-2012, 09:38 PM
for me i would choose a facilitator. Its always good to have an "on court coach" who is always one step ahead of his teammates and the competition. That being said, all of them are good options.

b@llhog24
07-22-2012, 09:38 PM
What would Lebron be? Hes more playmaker, but he also has some of the other traits.

Playmaker-facilitator hybrid. He doesn't really provide the spacing to be a distributor imo.

b@llhog24
07-22-2012, 09:47 PM
Honestly I'm not a fan of having playmakers and facilitators in terms of improving efficiency. Their too ball-dominant for my taste, which ends up taking other players out of their rhythm. Take for instance a guy like Durant, he can be plugged into just about any lineup and produce at his current rate. While a guy like Lebron (who's obviously) a better passer, reduces the strengths of other players who need the ball in their hands so either his efficiency of players who fit that mold suffer (see Wade).

TheNumber37
07-22-2012, 09:49 PM
Aim!

topdog
07-22-2012, 10:16 PM
Honestly I'm not a fan of having playmakers and facilitators in terms of improving efficiency. Their too ball-dominant for my taste, which ends up taking other players out of their rhythm. Take for instance a guy like Durant, he can be plugged into just about any lineup and produce at his current rate. While a guy like Lebron (who's obviously) a better passer, reduces the strengths of other players who need the ball in their hands so either his efficiency of players who fit that mold suffer (see Wade).

It depends upon how your team is constructed as to whether this is an issue or not. Also, it brings up a debate about how you want other players to play - would you rather have a Wade slasher type at SG or more of a jumpshooter?

If you're a role player with limited creating ability, you need playmakers and facilitators to set you up. Guys who need to dribble to shoot will be taken out of rhythm, but are those really the players you want on your roster? Ball movement breaks defenses. Broken defenses result in open shots.

b@llhog24
07-22-2012, 10:36 PM
It depends upon how your team is constructed as to whether this is an issue or not

Agreed.


Also, it brings up a debate about how you want other players to play - would you rather have a Wade slasher type at SG or more of a jumpshooter?

Personally? I prefer players who fit the conventional models, its just easier to build a roster that way. The positions were defined for a reason.


If you're a role player with limited creating ability, you need playmakers and facilitators to set you up.

Imo its harder to raise the efficiency levels of guys who actually have "talent" than it is to do with role players. They'd benefit just from the addition of extra talent around them simply for the fact that they would draw the least attention at any time on the court. Distributors can generally raise the efficiency level regardless of the cast vs a play-maker or facilitator. Look at my Wade example. Maybe it's just a preference thing but I honestly prefer my pg's to follow the Chancey Billups model.


Guys who need to dribble to shoot will be taken out of rhythm, but are those really the players you want on your roster? Ball movement breaks defenses. Broken defenses result in open shots.

Aren't most play-makers guys that can take you off the dribble? A hand full of facilitators fit this mold as well.

JerseyPalahniuk
07-22-2012, 11:56 PM
Could you elaborate more on the distributor aspect? At first glance, it just seemed like a hybrid of the first two but after reading IndyRealist's and others post of examples (Rip Hamilton?). Based on that the position seems inferior to the other two as the "most important aspect of passing" Would a Jarret Jack fit that mold as well?

From what I gathered from the original post and some of the others:

As Chronz mentioned, Nash fits all three and I believe Deron and Paul do as well.

Playmaker: Rose, Westbrook, Parker, Jennings

Facilitator: Rondo, Rubio, Calderon, Kidd

Distributor: Chalmers, Mo Williams, Billups, Curry

Do these examples agree with the classification?

JerseyPalahniuk
07-22-2012, 11:57 PM
What about these players?

John Wall
Kyle Lowry
Kyrie Irving
Mike Conley

I can see Kyrie and Wall developing all 3 aspects in the future but which 1 (or 2) classifications do these players fit NOW

SportsFanatic10
07-23-2012, 12:24 AM
What about these players?

John Wall
Kyle Lowry
Kyrie Irving
Mike Conley

I can see Kyrie and Wall developing all 3 aspects in the future but which 1 (or 2) classifications do these players fit NOW

i'll bite

imo

wall - playmaker, has some good facilitator skills but i wouldn't give him that label quite yet, and hes a long ways from a distributor with his weak outside shooting

lowry - i honestly haven't seen enough of him play yet to know how good of a slasher he is, so i don't know about playmaker, but his 3pt % the last 2 seasons is 37% so hes turning into a distributor at least

irving - playmaker, distributor, and i can see him developing soon into a strong facilitator

Conley - haven't watched him much to be honest but his stats suggest distributor and maybe facilitator? not sure i'd give him the facilitator role but i'd need to watch him more closely.

tr3ymill3r
07-23-2012, 01:02 AM
Getting it to the next guy in rythem to get a good shot in the flow of his movements.

8kobe24
07-23-2012, 01:39 AM
All are important facets, but I'd go with play maker because if you started a play that broke down the defense that eventually led to a basket you did something right. Whether you get the assist or not, you made that play happen.

Chronz
07-23-2012, 02:46 AM
just so we are clear a distributor is Reggie Miller/Rip Hamilton/Ray Allen, correct?

You could make that argument, I was thinking primarily about PG's but I suppose it would hold true for anyone who distributes the use of the ball itself while making the game easier for their teammates.

The one thing I would say is that you couldnt really give Reggie/Rip/Ray the ball and have them dictate the movement around them while being threats to score while stationary. Like the way Chauncey would wait for Rip to get open, the defender would still have to play him tight cuz he could drill the set J in your face and if you sagged off him he would have a clear view of the play.

Chronz
07-23-2012, 02:57 AM
Could you elaborate more on the distributor aspect? At first glance, it just seemed like a hybrid of the first two but after reading IndyRealist's and others post of examples (Rip Hamilton?). Based on that the position seems inferior to the other two as the "most important aspect of passing" Would a Jarret Jack fit that mold as well?
Yea its more of a modifier of the first two, I can see how its the least important since lots of non-PG's have that ability, but if you possess it on top of either of the other two skillsets then it will greatly improve your passing game.




From what I gathered from the original post and some of the others:

As Chronz mentioned, Nash fits all three and I believe Deron and Paul do as well.

Playmaker: Rose, Westbrook, Parker, Jennings

Facilitator: Rondo, Rubio, Calderon, Kidd

Distributor: Chalmers, Mo Williams, Billups, Curry

Do these examples agree with the classification?


I would agree on all of them. Every players has variations of these but I would agree that those are the traits that make them special.

With regards to CP3, I do think he and Nash have the best combination of them all, but I dont think CP3 is the best at any of them. I think Rose is a better playmaker, I think Rondo has better vision, and there are better off-the ball players. Still hes the most complete, with Nash as well.

BURAKOBE
07-23-2012, 03:02 AM
Honestly I'm not a fan of having playmakers and facilitators in terms of improving efficiency. Their too ball-dominant for my taste, which ends up taking other players out of their rhythm. Take for instance a guy like Durant, he can be plugged into just about any lineup and produce at his current rate. While a guy like Lebron (who's obviously) a better passer, reduces the strengths of other players who need the ball in their hands so either his efficiency of players who fit that mold suffer (see Wade).

The best reply i can think of. There are so many things that can be said about this, but i guess less is more.

But if we are talking about PG's , i think facilitators would do it. These guys crafts are more about their passing then their dribbling, so they don't exactly need the ball as much as playmakers. If you have a facilitator PG and a distrubiting SG, that would do it perfectly IMO. That is actually why i am excited about the upcoming year for Lakers. If Kobe can pull that off, Nash-Kobe duo would be deadly.

sharqstealth
07-23-2012, 03:31 AM
Point guards that have all 3- Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, a young Jason Kidd, Kyrie Irving

b@llhog24
07-23-2012, 08:31 AM
Point guards that have all 3- Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, a young Jason Kidd, Kyrie Irving

Kyrie isn't a facilitator yet and a young Jason Kidd wasn't a good enough shooter to be a distributor.

Bravo95
07-23-2012, 09:05 AM
Depends on the team but I'd say mostly facilitator, with some playmaker mixed in.

The first word that came to mind when I saw the topic was "anticipation", a trait that all good QBs need in football. Some are playmakers who can get outside and draw the defenses attention, then one receiver gets loose and it's another conversion, but most still have to master the game from the pocket, like traditional PGs, hitting those small windows in rhythm. Great passing teams, regardless of sport or position, have that anticipation and rhythm down pat.

Joker55
07-23-2012, 09:33 AM
Facilitator because their career will generally last longer.

todu82
07-23-2012, 09:59 AM
The facilitator

IKnowtrust
07-23-2012, 10:06 AM
Knowing Your Teammates And Were There Spots Are. What Shots Are High Percentage For Them.

Hustlenomics
07-23-2012, 10:15 AM
Rondo fits the exact definition of facilitator dude, and is the opposite of a distributor. Nobody cares where he is on the floor when he doesn't have the ball.

every coach says otherwise

DaBossLaker04
07-23-2012, 11:28 AM
I love this thread. In today's nba it seems that the playmaker is more wanted. But I personally Love the facilitator cuz When u watch sometimes u don't c those passes and its amazing that these guys do!

I also the offensive system the pgs are in can dictate how u classify a PG. As an example u would need more of a distributer PG in the triangle offense. Just my opinion

But here's a question.... what catergories would u put past pgs in? Such as Magic,Stockton, Payton etc.

Hawkeye15
07-23-2012, 12:14 PM
every coach says otherwise

you go out of your way to protect the guy, jesus. He can't score. Therefore you just make sure he isn't backdooring you, and help on the other players. He isn't going to hurt you from deep.

Kashmir13579
07-23-2012, 12:38 PM
Facilitator. Rewarding players for moving without the ball is a necessity if you want to run a high-octane offense.

Hustlenomics
07-23-2012, 01:20 PM
you go out of your way to protect the guy, jesus. He can't score. Therefore you just make sure he isn't backdooring you, and help on the other players. He isn't going to hurt you from deep.

you must not watch him in the playoffs at all if you think he can't score. you said they don't care what he's doing without the ball then why watch the backdoor?

b@llhog24
07-23-2012, 04:12 PM
you must not watch him in the playoffs at all if you think he can't score. you said they don't care what he's doing without the ball then why watch the backdoor?

At least you don't give up. :clap:

Hawkeye15
07-23-2012, 04:37 PM
you must not watch him in the playoffs at all if you think he can't score. you said they don't care what he's doing without the ball then why watch the backdoor?

you love small sample sizes, I give you that. He is a very, very inefficient scorer. Fact. Let it sink in.

Um, because anyone at the 7th grade level or above can make a layup if not bothered is why you watch the backdoor. Are you really giving him credit for making a play that you learn in 5-6th grade? You simply don't need to worry about him as a scoring threat without the ball, unless he gets it directly under the rim, because you weren't paying attention. That is the least amount of attention possible on a basketball floor.

Hawkeye15
07-23-2012, 04:38 PM
Rondo, like Rubio, is the definition of a facilitator. As Kidd was before them.

Hustlenomics
07-23-2012, 08:57 PM
you love small sample sizes, I give you that. He is a very, very inefficient scorer. Fact. Let it sink in.
he ups his scoring in the playoffs all the time that's not a small sample size averaged 17 ppg in 09. 16 ppg in 2010 on 46 % shooting from the field. In the 2011 playoffs he averaged 17.3 ppg on 47% shooting before he injured his elbow against the Heat. And he dominated this post season don't be a fool and say otherwise and he has numerous high scoring games during the regular season in his career with Boston



Um, because anyone at the 7th grade level or above can make a layup if not bothered is why you watch the backdoor. Are you really giving him credit for making a play that you learn in 5-6th grade? You simply don't need to worry about him as a scoring threat without the ball, unless he gets it directly under the rim, because you weren't paying attention. That is the least amount of attention possible on a basketball floor.
:laugh:

bagwell368
07-23-2012, 09:10 PM
every coach says otherwise

First thing. Stop watching where the ball goes every single second. Watch the players w/o the ball, watch where guys go, etc. If you watch Rondo w/o the ball (when he is much less valuable BTW then with the ball) you'll see his man go to:

guard passing lanes
giving help D
double more threatening/accomplished offensive players
getting ready to block Rondo out on a rebound
getting into position for a rebound
getting ready to break down floor after a change of possession

The only downside of leaving Rondo is if he gets the ball back with nobody on him, he can drive, but his days of driving very often to the hoop seem lost back in the 2008-2010 days - so even that threat isn't all that common.

Anyone that claims that the D of teams like the Jackson led Lakers didn't studiously ignore Rondo w/o the ball (and invite him to shoot J's when he does have the ball) is not paying attention or pedaling crap.

albertc86
07-23-2012, 09:50 PM
The most important aspect of passing is the teammate actually making the shot. What good is passing if it's not going to be converted into points?

MrFastBreak
07-23-2012, 11:05 PM
I prefer the aspect of passing that helps break down defenses and also the aspect that makes something out of nothing when defense is tight. So a combination of playmaking and facilitating. An elite passer should posses the court vision that allows him to spot the open shooter while being the main guy on offense.

Thus, the edge goes to the playmaker because he is pretty much the focus of the offense with the defense smothering him, which gives him the opportunity to find the open man. It makes defenses work much harder.

I like the distributor but its much easier to shut him down, but then again, he can free up another guy and create through his movement off the ball and occupancy of defenders. So its tough and I can see why this question is being asked.

A playmaker is more of a threat tho because he can either shoot in your face or pass it to the open teammate, whereas it is easy to play off the facilitator. But you could refute this because the fact still remains it depends on who the player is and what his skillset consists of.

LeBron James dominates on offense. He is capable of breaking down a tight defense and pinpointing an accurate pass with his uncanny speed and high IQ. He doesnt necessarily have the best vision but he can easily free up his teammate for a high percentage shot because of all the attention he gets from the defense. -playmaker

Rajon Rondo has great court vision, seems to possess the ability to see a play before it happens, and makes the proper pass that results in a field goal. -facilitator

Ray Allen is a pure shooter. He has great off the ball movement and doesnt have to set his feet to sink a tre. With so many defenders on his tail, he can create an open shot for his teammate. -distributor

I think we all know the flaws of the facilitator and distributor stick out morseso than the playmaker in this comparison. It all just depends on what you prefer I guess (also how good a player is at a relative aspect of passing) and who possesses the aspect with GREATEST THREAT on offense and makes the defense work EXTRA hard.


The most important aspect of passing is the teammate actually making the shot. What good is passing if it's not going to be converted into points?
That's where the importance of the creation of high % shot lies.

Gritz
07-23-2012, 11:11 PM
You can average a lot of assists if you change your PG's passing skill to 99 and the rest of your team shot close, shot inside, shot medium, and 3pt shot to 99

topdog
07-24-2012, 01:26 AM
Imo its harder to raise the efficiency levels of guys who actually have "talent" than it is to do with role players. They'd benefit just from the addition of extra talent around them simply for the fact that they would draw the least attention at any time on the court. Distributors can generally raise the efficiency level regardless of the cast vs a play-maker or facilitator. Look at my Wade example. Maybe it's just a preference thing but I honestly prefer my pg's to follow the Chancey Billups model.

Distributors work well on stacked teams or teams with spread out talent like the '04 Pistons. Most teams today don't have that balance though and have a couple role players on the court at all times. Those role players are as effective as you allow them to fulfill that role so you need to get 3pt specialist open looks and defensive bigs dunks. The speed of playmakers creates chaos which results in easier opportunities.

The Heat's gameplan in the Finals is evocative of how much a playmaker pays off. Whenever the Heat needed a basket, Lebron went inside and drew the double which made him pass out to an open 3pt shooting role player who either took the shot or rotated the ball. That, versus the single coverage Lebron recieved when he was outside the paint as a distributor, shows the power of playmaking.


Aren't most play-makers guys that can take you off the dribble? A hand full of facilitators fit this mold as well.

My point being that you don't necessarily want a bunch of guys out on the floor trying to dribble - it takes time and often does nothing to improve the quality of shot. If you have a playmaker, ideally you have them bring the ball up and attack. However the defense reacts dictates where the ball goes and from there you are moving the ball on passes and minimal probing dribbles. It's awful to see a point guard drive and draw help, pass to an open guard, and that guard then proceeds to dribble into the lane where the help defense already is.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2012, 01:35 AM
he ups his scoring in the playoffs all the time that's not a small sample size averaged 17 ppg in 09.

on a TS% of 46.9. That is horrific.


16 ppg in 2010 on 46 % shooting from the field.

50.4% TS percentage. Only 29.6% under league average.



In the 2011 playoffs he averaged 17.3 ppg on 47% shooting before he injured his elbow against the Heat.


career playoff high of 50.9% TS percentage. Still well under league average. His offensive rating of 106 qualifies as a good player, not a star.



And he dominated this post season don't be a fool and say otherwise and he has numerous high scoring games during the regular season in his career with Boston

And notice the best games he had they lost. The other team forced him to beat them. Rondo is a gifted passer, good rebounder, and excellent defender. But to keep defending his scoring is ridiculous. He is pathetic at that portion of the game, efficiency wise.


:laugh:

Very easy to understand, no?

sunsfan88
07-24-2012, 01:37 AM
Suns have 2 of the said 3 on their current roster.

Dragic is the play maker while Marshall is the facilitator.

Hustlenomics
07-24-2012, 09:11 AM
on a TS% of 46.9. That is horrific.



50.4% TS percentage. Only 29.6% under league average.





career playoff high of 50.9% TS percentage. Still well under league average. His offensive rating of 106 qualifies as a good player, not a star.




And notice the best games he had they lost. The other team forced him to beat them. Rondo is a gifted passer, good rebounder, and excellent defender. But to keep defending his scoring is ridiculous. He is pathetic at that portion of the game, efficiency wise.



Very easy to understand, no?
combining free throw shooting to his field goal percentage when we're talking about him scoring from the field is weak. He has shown countless times he can score when he wants to I can understand you saying his shooting is bad but he obviously shows he can score do I have to list every good scoring game he's had ??

IndyRealist
07-24-2012, 12:18 PM
combining free throw shooting to his field goal percentage when we're talking about him scoring from the field is weak. He has shown countless times he can score when he wants to I can understand you saying his shooting is bad but he obviously shows he can score do I have to list every good scoring game he's had ??

Free throw shooting is an aspect of scoring from the field. If you're a poor ft shooter, hack a rondo comes into play. And if he's getting fouled enough to significantly lower his ts%, then it definitely matters.

MrFastBreak
07-24-2012, 01:36 PM
on a TS% of 46.9. That is horrific.





And notice the best games he had they lost. The other team forced him to beat them. Rondo is a gifted passer, good rebounder, and excellent defender. But to keep defending his scoring is ridiculous. He is pathetic at that portion of the game, efficiency wise.



Its why hes so easy to shut down on the scoring aspect because you can sag off him. What makes him so special is his gifted vision so he can make that pass that turns into a high % shot.

He makes plays but is he the main guy on offense? Perhaps his limitations are what set the Celts back offensively.

b@llhog24
07-25-2012, 07:07 PM
Distributors work well on stacked teams or teams with spread out talent like the '04 Pistons.

Well everybody works well on stacked teams :shrug: Distributors can thrive inside of just about any type offensive system imo, whereas facilitators and play-makers supporting casts have to be more tailored to their strengths to maximize whichever aspect that they excel in. (Being in a fast paced system also helps).


Most teams today don't have that balance though and have a couple role players on the court at all times. Those role players are as effective as you allow them to fulfill that role so you need to get 3pt specialist open looks and defensive bigs dunks. The speed of playmakers creates chaos which results in easier opportunities.

We've already establish that it was need based though; the value of a distributor is that their innate strength is the least reliant upon their supporting cast. They don't need an elite finisher to create an open shot; they also don't need an elite three point shooter as their own presence helps to create space on the floor.


The Heat's gameplan in the Finals is evocative of how much a playmaker pays off. Whenever the Heat needed a basket, Lebron went inside and drew the double which made him pass out to an open 3pt shooting role player who either took the shot or rotated the ball. That, versus the single coverage Lebron recieved when he was outside the paint as a distributor, shows the power of playmaking.

So the Heat's aren't stacked? :D


My point being that you don't necessarily want a bunch of guys out on the floor trying to dribble - it takes time and often does nothing to improve the quality of shot.

Being a distributor kind of helps that don't you think? They allow other ball handlers to be present on the floor where they would end up clashing with a facillate or a playmaker.


If you have a playmaker, ideally you have them bring the ball up and attack. However the defense reacts dictates where the ball goes and from there you are moving the ball on passes and minimal probing dribbles. It's awful to see a point guard drive and draw help, pass to an open guard, and that guard then proceeds to dribble into the lane where the help defense already is.

I understand the strengths that playmaker brings to the table; I also understand the weaknesses that they bring to the table as well. At the end of the day it’s personal preference for me.

StarvingKnick22
07-25-2012, 07:15 PM
That it makes it to the reciever of the ball.

thekmp211
07-25-2012, 08:22 PM
really hard to say. elite teams usually have distributors along with bigger ball-dominant wings. chauncey's pistons team was a real exception.

ideally you want a a playmaker who knows when to be a facilitator, i'd say. but that is really true of the 1-3, not just the PG position.

it's an interesting dilemma because solid pg play is so critical, but teams led by elite PG's rarely go all the way without a dominant swing and/or big man.