PDA

View Full Version : Braves interested in Lester



j-bay
07-21-2012, 09:59 PM
The Braves are seeking pitching help prior to the trade deadline, and MLB.com's Mark Bowman reports that they recently called the Red Sox about Jon Lester. Boston is not yet looking to sell, something we heard earlier this month.

"Pitching is at a premium," said GM Frank Wren. "It's so hard to get pitching because there are a limited amount of guys. There are a lot of guys being bantered around out there, and they're not really available because teams have not determined whether they're in or out. In some cases, they haven't determined whether they can sign them or not. It's really a tough market."

Lester, 28, is in the middle of the worst full season of his career. His 4.80 ERA is more than a full run higher than his 3.67 career mark, and his strikeout rate (7.6 K/9) is his lowest since 2008. The good news is that his 2.6 BB/9 is a career-best. Lester is owed $11.625MM next season with a $13MM club option for 2014.

Bowman says the Braves appear to be much more interested in Zack Greinke than Ryan Dempster, but they will not mortgage the future for a rental player. Atlanta is also in the market for bullpen help and Bowman opines that they may check in former Brave Omar Infante.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/braves-inquired-about-jon-lester.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

No player i have interest in giving up for Lester. However Braves, mind if we interest you in Josh Beckett.

Station 13
07-21-2012, 10:42 PM
yeah why has nobody come calling for Josh F*cking Beckett.

elements1985
07-21-2012, 11:17 PM
I don't see this team surviving the upcoming NYY and TEX sets; so Cherington might be wise selling with so many teams desperate and in the Wild Card 'hunt'.

Great market for sellers IMO.

Beckett should be the one to go, however.... That could allow some payroll flexibility come this winter.

BGeer091
07-21-2012, 11:40 PM
I don't really think there is a deal with them worth doing. I mean I like Minor but thats about it. I highly doubt that Lester gets us Beachy. Seriously though I would do this trade in a heart beat.

A Gon/Lester/Bard/Bailey for Beachy/Freeman/Minor and Kimbrel...

Sweet_Caroline
07-21-2012, 11:43 PM
Didn't Beachy just get Tommy John? No thanks.

BGeer091
07-22-2012, 12:12 AM
So realistically looking at Lester to ATL id say Minor, Teheren and 2 lower specs for Lester and a spec..

EEasyA
07-22-2012, 12:15 AM
For king felix,i will trade lester.for anyone else No.

-Lavigne43-
07-22-2012, 01:34 AM
It would be completely idiotic to trade Lester right now.

AuSox
07-22-2012, 03:09 AM
I wouldn't be actively shopping Lester, but if a team wants to put together a good package for him I would certainly listen. If the Braves wanted to offer Minor, Teheran and Vizcaino for him I would have no problem moving him. We might take a step back this year, but long term it would certainly help.

But like everyone else, I would much prefer to trade Beckett. If Hamels and Greinke don't get moved he could have a bit of trade value. With the two wild cards this year its a sellers market, and the fact that he is under contract through 2014 could be a plus (if the Sox eat part of his contract).

avengedchaos5
07-22-2012, 08:58 AM
beckett and crawford. for buehrle and hanley? sorry if i spelled names wrong.

BGeer091
07-22-2012, 09:10 AM
We wont get all three of Minor, Teheran and Vizcaino. Heck idk if we get two of the three but I wouldn't trade Lester without 2 of them. Well actually 2 of Minor, Teheran, Vizcaino and Gilmartin.

-Lavigne43-
07-22-2012, 12:23 PM
Trading for all 3 of them would be a horrible trade. Teheran has been horrible this season and his stuff has declined. Vizcaino had TJ surgery in the beginning of the season. I like Minor but he has been terrible this year.

You're talking about Jon Lester, a pitcher fully capable of being one of the best pitchers in baseball, and up until this year was at worst among the top 20 every single year from 2008 on. One half season of bad results and we get this.

All the stats with Lester indicate he should turn things around. He has the 2nd highest K/B ratio of his career, an abnormally low lob% (7th lowest in baseball), and a babip significantly higher than any other year in his career (8th highest in baseball, and higher than any qualified pitcher last year).

ccspence8
07-22-2012, 12:56 PM
I don't really think there is a deal with them worth doing. I mean I like Minor but thats about it. I highly doubt that Lester gets us Beachy. Seriously though I would do this trade in a heart beat.

A Gon/Lester/Bard/Bailey for Beachy/Freeman/Minor and Kimbrel...

Kill yourself...

No way in hell we trade Lester with his stock as low as it is. He will turn it around, he's too good not to. If anyone on the pitching staff is going its gotta be Beckett, and I still don't see him getting traded.

The only players getting traded during the deadline is OF and prospects for either SS or SP. Doubt we'll be sellers unless we get demolished in the next two series.

penuch
07-22-2012, 02:36 PM
Now is the absolute worst time we could try and trade lester. His value has never been lower! We would be selling for pennies on the dollar. I would rather just DL him and see if he can figure it out in the minors.

lucchesicourt
07-22-2012, 03:32 PM
BV just lwered Lester's value even more. BV has got to be the WORST manager I have ever seen. The A's with their talent (worse than the talent the Sox possess) are infintely better than the Red Sox and have a much lower salary. it's because the A's do the little things, like bunt, steal, hit andrun, etc. The Sox play station to station waiting for the big hit. While the A's make you throw the ball and commit errors to beat you. Also, I forgot, the A's know how to pitch and when to pull a pitcher when he doesn't have it. BV has NO idea when to pull a pitcher. He just SUCKS. With the team the Sox have, even with all the injuries, they should be better than most the teams in the AL. And, in reality they are not. BV let's Punto bat with 2 outs and 2 runners on in the bottom of the 4th down 5 runs. Why? I don't know. It's not like Crawford and Middlebrooks aren't available to hit, right?
I tired of people saying BV has dome a good job. The fact is he HAS NOT!!!

Corey
07-22-2012, 03:38 PM
Seriously though I would do this trade in a heart beat.

A Gon/Lester/Bard/Bailey for Beachy/Freeman/Minor and Kimbrel...

:laugh:

MoVaughnsLunch
07-22-2012, 03:41 PM
BV just lwered Lester's value even more. BV has got to be the WORST manager I have ever seen. The A's with their talent (worse than the talent the Sox possess) are infintely better than the Red Sox and have a much lower salary. it's because the A's do the little things, like bunt, steal, hit andrun, etc. The Sox play station to station waiting for the big hit. While the A's make you throw the ball and commit errors to beat you. Also, I forgot, the A's know how to pitch and when to pull a pitcher when he doesn't have it. BV has NO idea when to pull a pitcher. He just SUCKS. With the team the Sox have, even with all the injuries, they should be better than most the teams in the AL. And, in reality they are not. BV let's Punto bat with 2 outs and 2 runners on in the bottom of the 4th down 5 runs. Why? I don't know. It's not like Crawford and Middlebrooks aren't available to hit, right?
I tired of people saying BV has dome a good job. The fact is he HAS NOT!!!


Easy killer. I put more of this on McClure than bv. Blame the players before the coach for a change

Crucis
07-22-2012, 04:29 PM
BV just lwered Lester's value even more. BV has got to be the WORST manager I have ever seen. The A's with their talent (worse than the talent the Sox possess) are infintely better than the Red Sox and have a much lower salary. it's because the A's do the little things, like bunt, steal, hit andrun, etc. The Sox play station to station waiting for the big hit. While the A's make you throw the ball and commit errors to beat you. Also, I forgot, the A's know how to pitch and when to pull a pitcher when he doesn't have it. BV has NO idea when to pull a pitcher. He just SUCKS. With the team the Sox have, even with all the injuries, they should be better than most the teams in the AL. And, in reality they are not. BV let's Punto bat with 2 outs and 2 runners on in the bottom of the 4th down 5 runs. Why? I don't know. It's not like Crawford and Middlebrooks aren't available to hit, right?
I tired of people saying BV has dome a good job. The fact is he HAS NOT!!!


Just because you say so does not make something a "fact". :rolleyes:

MoVaughnsLunch
07-22-2012, 05:37 PM
As a senior legion baseball manager I can safely these pitchers are just giving up. That's not fair when we need Lester and Beckett to step up they mail it in. That's not the manager. That's overpaid babies acting their reputation. If bv has to flop for a year than so be it. The truth is if u have players don't care there is nothing a manager can do.

GoldDustTwin
07-22-2012, 06:47 PM
As a senior legion baseball manager I can safely these pitchers are just giving up. That's not fair when we need Lester and Beckett to step up they mail it in. That's not the manager. That's overpaid babies acting their reputation. If bv has to flop for a year than so be it. The truth is if u have players don't care there is nothing a manager can do.

As a powerboat owner who plays a little recreational golf, I can definitively say that the solution to Carl Crawford's problems at the plate is a voodoo ceremony.

cocossox
07-22-2012, 07:06 PM
i feel bad for Ben, given whats going on he should sell what sucks is he selling so low right now its not even funny.

bagwell368
07-22-2012, 10:28 PM
it's because the A's do the little things, like bunt, steal, hit andrun, etc.

Says the guy that wanted to go with Iglesias and dispense with Aviles.


The Sox play station to station waiting for the big hit. While the A's make you throw the ball and commit errors to beat you.

Care to discuss the A's record vs the Sox since 2003? Go ahead and ignore sample size.... since if you didn't you would have nothing to complain about - would you?


It's not like Crawford and Middlebrooks aren't available to hit, right?

Resting guys doesn't work when you shove them into a game.


I tired of people saying BV has dome a good job. The fact is he HAS NOT!!!

I'm tired of knee jerk posters.... life is just tough.

bagwell368
07-22-2012, 10:33 PM
As a senior legion baseball manager I can safely these pitchers are just giving up. That's not fair when we need Lester and Beckett to step up they mail it in. That's not the manager. That's overpaid babies acting their reputation. If bv has to flop for a year than so be it. The truth is if u have players don't care there is nothing a manager can do.

As a retired Pony, Legion, and paid AAU pitching coach I disagree to a large extent with your opnion. Did you factor in the 3 pitching coaches in less then 3 years? Did you factor in Lesters loss of velocity? Guess not.

Nomar
07-22-2012, 10:33 PM
I'm tired of knee jerk posters.... life is just tough.

Amen. How is it Bobby's fault that the guys who are supposed to be near aces cant even go one inning without giving up multiple runs?

Its so typical. We sweep Toronto, "I guess Bobby is alright," but since we got swept it's "get rid of Bobby V."

SirHizz
07-22-2012, 10:45 PM
As a retired Pony, Legion, and paid AAU pitching coach I disagree to a large extent with your opnion. Did you factor in the 3 pitching coaches in less then 3 years? Did you factor in Lesters loss of velocity? Guess not.

Is it just a coincidence that it happend to Beckett and Lester at the same time? Don't know if it has anything to do with the departure of Farrell, but our staff is getting worse and worse.

Bo Sox Fan
07-22-2012, 10:53 PM
After Lester got masacured earlier today I could have cared less if we deal him. But after taking a step back and letting common sense kick in, he WILL come around and should literally be untouchable unless Felix is coming the other way. Then again, that drum has been beat on and abused so hard it might as well be trashed.

Some people have to quit being so short sighted on 1 game performances, self included. Look at A-Gon in May, than look at him now.

GoldDustTwin
07-22-2012, 11:16 PM
After Lester got masacured earlier today I could have cared less if we deal him. But after taking a step back and letting common sense kick in, he WILL come around and should literally be untouchable unless Felix is coming the other way. Then again, that drum has been beat on and abused so hard it might as well be trashed.

Some people have to quit being so short sighted on 1 game performances, self included. Look at A-Gon in May, than look at him now.

I just hope he doesn't get pedicured his next time out.

Crucis
07-23-2012, 12:17 AM
I just hope he doesn't get pedicured his next time out.

Or manicured. :p

tc2deuce
07-23-2012, 01:15 AM
If Lester and Beckett do not win games for us then we might as well look forward to 2013.
Here is to losing 9 straight!

sawxfan
07-23-2012, 02:38 AM
After Lester got masacured earlier today I could have cared less if we deal him. But after taking a step back and letting common sense kick in, he WILL come around and should literally be untouchable unless Felix is coming the other way. Then again, that drum has been beat on and abused so hard it might as well be trashed.

Some people have to quit being so short sighted on 1 game performances, self included. Look at A-Gon in May, than look at him now.

And it's, "I could not have cared less". Meaning that you did not care at all.

sawxfan
07-23-2012, 02:45 AM
Amen. How is it Bobby's fault that the guys who are supposed to be near aces cant even go one inning without giving up multiple runs?

Its so typical. We sweep Toronto, "I guess Bobby is alright," but since we got swept it's "get rid of Bobby V."

The post Bags was commenting on was defending BV and blaming the pitching woes on guys giving up. I hate when people defend BV against attacks that never happened.

There are many reasons why BV has to go, the main being that we will not get past last years epic collapse with him at the helm. It is the main reason that he was brought in. Another being that he is a arrogant media whore who has little to no ability managing people.

Tragedy
07-23-2012, 02:46 AM
I'm all for trading Lester, but not right now. His value is so low, why would we? We k is how good Lester can be so let's keep him.

Now Beckett.. I've been on board with trading that cancer for quite a while.

ricomactaco
07-23-2012, 06:29 AM
I'm all for trading Lester, but not right now. His value is so low, why would we? We k is how good Lester can be so let's keep him.

Now Beckett.. I've been on board with trading that cancer for quite a while.

Agree 100%

Crucis
07-23-2012, 08:32 AM
The post Bags was commenting on was defending BV and blaming the pitching woes on guys giving up. I hate when people defend BV against attacks that never happened.

There are many reasons why BV has to go, the main being that we will not get past last years epic collapse with him at the helm. It is the main reason that he was brought in. Another being that he is a arrogant media whore who has little to know ability in managing people.

"Little to know"? Huh? Try "little to no".

sawxfan
07-23-2012, 08:51 AM
"Little to know"? Huh? Try "little to no".

LOL, maybe I shouldn't be correcting anyone. :o

hugepatsfan
07-23-2012, 10:39 AM
I don't think you guys should move Lester w/ his stock so low. If a team called and offered full value, then maybe you consider it. But if they're looking to buy low, then I think you guys should say hell no.

tonyd3b54
07-23-2012, 12:15 PM
i really want to get rid of beckett and then see how lester responds to that. even if the turn around doesnt happen this year, id bet a hefty sum that lester will come back strong next year.

BGeer091
07-23-2012, 12:26 PM
i really want to get rid of beckett and then see how lester responds to that. even if the turn around doesnt happen this year, id bet a hefty sum that lester will come back strong next year.

I believe you are right. I almost feel like Beckett is like Wormtongue and Lester is Theodon. Get Beckett outta the way and Lester could shine again.

Crucis
07-23-2012, 02:34 PM
LOL, maybe I shouldn't be correcting anyone. :o

Don't worry about it. Your little boo-boo has the benefit of not being a their/there/they're or then/than or affects/effects thing.

The one that got me for a long time was the phrase "make due". I was never sure if it was "make due" or "make do" because I couldn't logically see which one was proper. At least when one says "little to no", logically it should be "no" not "know" because of the phrase. Think "little to no" could also be more verbosely said "very little to nothing", hence the logic of "little to no".

Anyways ... have a nice one.. ;)

Crucis
07-23-2012, 02:36 PM
I believe you are right. I almost feel like Beckett is like Wormtongue and Lester is Theodon. Get Beckett outta the way and Lester could shine again.

Nice "Lord of the Rings" reference. Very geeky! :cool:

Boston-Born
07-23-2012, 03:08 PM
Not anymore now that Dempster just got traded there/they're/their/the air

lucchesicourt
07-23-2012, 03:11 PM
I NEVER said get rid of Aviles. I said I think Aviles is a good utility player, but not an exceptional deefensive SS. I will agree that Aviles has done fairly well, but as of late he is not the same player he was in April and May. Unfortunately, hitters have slumps. There are no exveptions. However, speed and defense usually do not. Those are the things that shouldome to the game everyday. Iglesias, from what I have read is a gold glove waiting to happen. Is Aviles? Now, Aviles has several positives. He is a GREAT utility player. He is an average everyday player. If he was so great offensively he would be hitting in the same spots in the lineup a A-Rod. He is not n A-Rod or a Viquel, but a good all around ball player. Not great at anything. So, I will restate my case for Iglesias. A great defensive player will save more runs than a good offensive player will produce. I know. I played on teams with great defense and good pitching. teams seldom scored more than 4 runs against us. I have also been on team with great offenses (I was a defensive player, could not hit a good curveball), and watched many a game end 12-11 and such scores. The defensive team won over twice as many games as the offensive teams. pitching and defenses win ball games, as do defenses in almost all sports.

BV allowed Lester to allow 11 runs before he removed him from the game. That is ridiculous, and uncalled for at any level, even liitle league. Tarzaw was available, he has been a starter, and he could have relieved Lester at the start of inning number 2. He did not. Tarzawa then pitched well enough to keep the Sox in the game had NOT Lester been allowed to let up 11 runs. But, if you want to save the bullpen, just leave all the starters in and never use them. They would get plenty of rest then. The fact is BV's actions not only may have cost this game, but it could also have hurt Lester's confidence. If he has, and he now questions his abilities, it will affect his future performances (usually detrimentally).

bagwell368
07-23-2012, 03:12 PM
I believe you are right. I almost feel like Beckett is like Wormtongue and Lester is Theodon. Get Beckett outta the way and Lester could shine again.

Good question:

Is Lucchino Worm-tongue or the White Wizard?

bagwell368
07-23-2012, 03:29 PM
I NEVER said get rid of Aviles. I said I think Aviles is a good utility player, but not an exceptional deefensive SS.

Yes, right get rid of from the starting line-up for a feeb that can't hit - at all.


I will agree that Aviles has done fairly well, but as of late he is not the same player he was in April and May. Unfortunately, hitters have slumps. There are no exveptions. However, speed and defense usually do not. Those are the things that shouldome to the game everyday. Iglesias, from what I have read is a gold glove waiting to happen. Is Aviles?

Oh this is too good. What good is speed if a player can't get on base? While Iglesias might end up being a top 10 all time fielder at SS, his hitting abilities are so weak he'll never get a consistent starter job - if he doesn't markedly improve. An average hitter and fielder is well more valuable then a great fielder who is the worst hitting SS in the league.


Now, Aviles has several positives. He is a GREAT utility player. He is an average everyday player.

As I said an average player is better then Iglesias, and this year Aviles is well above average so far. So what possible argument could you have to try and bring back this topic from the dead dog files?


If he was so great offensively he would be hitting in the same spots in the lineup a A-Rod. He is not n A-Rod or a Viquel, but a good all around ball player. Not great at anything.

What does an aging 3B making over $25M a year have to do with Aviles? Vizquel? You mean as in Vizquel of today? He's laughably inept compared to Aviles in 2012. In fact Aviles in on track to beat by value (WAR) this year every year Vizquel has had since 2002.


So, I will restate my case for Iglesias. A great defensive player will save more runs than a good offensive player will produce. I know. I played on teams with great defense and good pitching. teams seldom scored more than 4 runs against us. I have also been on team with great offenses (I was a defensive player, could not hit a good curveball), and watched many a game end 12-11 and such scores. The defensive team won over twice as many games as the offensive teams. pitching and defenses win ball games, as do defenses in almost all sports.

This is a complete falsehood in terms of MLB as it's played today and since 1970 - at least. The best hitting SS on average in a league in a given year who is the worst fielder in that league will well outproduce the average best fielder who is the worst hitter. Go ahead and find more then 2 exceptions to that rule since 1970. If you can't then you are full of beans. When I say player - I mean the worst and the best put together using BR RField for defense and RC for offense. So for instance it would be AROD at SS in a great year with the 29 error bad range guy on say KC vs the slick gloved whomever it is + the worst hitter (by OPS+ with over 450 PA's). Go for it.

Your case is bent by your subjective memory and a specific set of circumstances that might not pertain at all to ML baseball.

Crucis
07-23-2012, 03:53 PM
I NEVER said get rid of Aviles. I said I think Aviles is a good utility player, but not an exceptional deefensive SS. I will agree that Aviles has done fairly well, but as of late he is not the same player he was in April and May. Unfortunately, hitters have slumps. There are no exveptions. However, speed and defense usually do not. Those are the things that shouldome to the game everyday. Iglesias, from what I have read is a gold glove waiting to happen. Is Aviles? Now, Aviles has several positives. He is a GREAT utility player. He is an average everyday player. If he was so great offensively he would be hitting in the same spots in the lineup a A-Rod. He is not n A-Rod or a Viquel, but a good all around ball player. Not great at anything. So, I will restate my case for Iglesias. A great defensive player will save more runs than a good offensive player will produce. I know. I played on teams with great defense and good pitching. teams seldom scored more than 4 runs against us. I have also been on team with great offenses (I was a defensive player, could not hit a good curveball), and watched many a game end 12-11 and such scores. The defensive team won over twice as many games as the offensive teams. pitching and defenses win ball games, as do defenses in almost all sports.

.

Iglesias is the 21st century's version of Mark Belanger, all glove and no stick, just waiting to happen. Thanks, but no thanks.

RedSoxtober
07-23-2012, 05:32 PM
I don't see this team surviving the upcoming NYY and TEX sets; so Cherington might be wise selling with so many teams desperate and in the Wild Card 'hunt'.

Great market for sellers IMO.

Beckett should be the one to go, however.... That could allow some payroll flexibility come this winter.

+1. For all the "we're only 2, 3, 4 games out of the playoff" talk (depends on the losing streak), the Sox are one of 11 teams with a record of .500 or better. It would be 12 if the Indians hadn't lost 4 in a row. Translation: they still have to pass half of the AL to get into the playoffs.

Problems

They're .400 against teams with winning records and play almost exclusively teams with winning records the rest of the way.
They've got 12 games against NYY, 9 in the Bronx.
TEX, LAA, TBR, and OAK along with NYY comprise roughly half their remaining schedule.
They're 3-games under .500... at home.


Pick up a player in the near future and the only way it helps THIS season is if it removes Beckett or Lester from the rotation. After all, they're 10 games over .500 when anyone else starts. If you replace someone at the bottom of the rotation you replace a winning position in the rotation. What's the point?

Stand pat or trade for the future.

Nomar
07-23-2012, 05:38 PM
This Lester **** is getting ridiculous IMO. IF the guy threw 7 innings and gave up 2 runs yesterday nobody would be saying anything. He's obviously got something to figure out as hes simply not himself, but to think that it's time to trade him is just wrong.

lucchesicourt
07-23-2012, 11:02 PM
How do you know Iglesias cannot hit.250 in MLB? Yousay he can't hit/ But if you look at his few mlb AB he hits .333 and if you look at hisminors BA he has a career BAA over .240. And, last year in AAA he played wih a broken finger and still hit well enough to keep his average over .240. Trying swinging with a broken finger. It doesn't work too well.
So, how is it you can call him a batter who cannot hit .240 in MLB. What statistics are you using? It sure isn't the ones he has accumulated as a professional. See below:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=iglesi001jos

Aviles since May31 has hit ,258 with 2 HRs. Now, is this tons better than Iglesias could hit? It can't be. Has has been nothing but an average SS.

Dave Concepcion won 5 gold gloves and only hit for a .267 career BA.
Ozzie Smith career .262 career BA and a good number of gold gloves
Rafael Santana 1986 NY Mets .218 BA World Champs
Juan Uribe .252 BA on 2005 White Sox WS Champions
Juan Uribe .248 BA on 2010 SF Giants WS Champions.

Who can say Iglesias cannot hit .250 in the MLB. What are you basing your opinion on? It cannot be his professional stats.

tonyd3b54
07-23-2012, 11:26 PM
I believe you are right. I almost feel like Beckett is like Wormtongue and Lester is Theodon. Get Beckett outta the way and Lester could shine again.

i love you for this reference :clap:

Crucis
07-23-2012, 11:33 PM
How do you know Iglesias cannot hit.250 in MLB? Yousay he can't hit/ But if you look at his few mlb AB he hits .333 and if you look at hisminors BA he has a career BAA over .240. And, last year in AAA he played wih a broken finger and still hit well enough to keep his average over .240. Trying swinging with a broken finger. It doesn't work too well.
So, how is it you can call him a batter who cannot hit .240 in MLB. What statistics are you using? It sure isn't the ones he has accumulated as a professional. See below:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=iglesi001jos

Aviles since May31 has hit ,258 with 2 HRs. Now, is this tons better than Iglesias could hit? It can't be. Has has been nothing but an average SS.

Dave Concepcion won 5 gold gloves and only hit for a .267 career BA.
Ozzie Smith career .262 career BA and a good number of gold gloves
Rafael Santana 1986 NY Mets .218 BA World Champs
Juan Uribe .252 BA on 2005 White Sox WS Champions
Juan Uribe .248 BA on 2010 SF Giants WS Champions.

Who can say Iglesias cannot hit .250 in the MLB. What are you basing your opinion on? It cannot be his professional stats.

Sorry, no sale. Iggy couldn't slug his way out of a paper bag. Until he proves otherwise, he'll always just be the 21st century version of Mark Belanger to me; all glove, no stick.

I'd rather just see the Sox trade him. For all Aviles' faults, he does get hits and drive in runs.

As for your list of other SS's with lame averages, you might as well add Julio Lugo, 2007 Red Sox to the list. Just because a player has been the SS of a championship team, that doesn't mean that he's someone that the Sox should aspire to have as their everyday SS.

Crucis
07-23-2012, 11:38 PM
This Lester **** is getting ridiculous IMO. IF the guy threw 7 innings and gave up 2 runs yesterday nobody would be saying anything. He's obviously got something to figure out as hes simply not himself, but to think that it's time to trade him is just wrong.

While I don't outright disagree with you, if RS management decides that the team needs some shaking up, Lester would seem to be a candidate for a "shake'em up" move, due to his less than stellar performances.

Nomar
07-24-2012, 12:06 AM
While I don't outright disagree with you, if RS management decides that the team needs some shaking up, Lester would seem to be a candidate for a "shake'em up" move, due to his less than stellar performances.

id agree... this winter though

lucchesicourt
07-24-2012, 12:07 AM
I am comparing Aviles offense with other players of the same offensive skills, but who had better gloves. I would take all the players listed over Aviles. I would NOT take Lugo as a quality SS. He was average at best defensively and his bat wasn't much different than Aviles.
Again, how do you know Iglesias cannot hit MLB pitching? I sure do not. Unless he has an opportunity you nor I will never know the answer. You are just saying he cannot hit, without any facts to back your position up.

elements1985
07-24-2012, 12:10 AM
I am comparing Aviles offense with other players of the same offensive skills, but who had better gloves. I would take all the players listed over Aviles. I would NOT take Lugo as a quality SS. He was average at best defensively and his bat wasn't much different than Aviles.
Again, how do you know Iglesias cannot hit MLB pitching? I sure do not. Unless he has an opportunity you nor I will never know the answer. You are just saying he cannot hit, without any facts to back your position up.

I just can't wrap my head around this: of all the problems on this team, replacing MIKE AVILES is your first order of business?

Crucis
07-24-2012, 01:10 AM
I am comparing Aviles offense with other players of the same offensive skills, but who had better gloves. I would take all the players listed over Aviles. I would NOT take Lugo as a quality SS. He was average at best defensively and his bat wasn't much different than Aviles.
Again, how do you know Iglesias cannot hit MLB pitching? I sure do not. Unless he has an opportunity you nor I will never know the answer. You are just saying he cannot hit, without any facts to back your position up.

Do you even know how to use QUOTE boxes in a reply? I can only infer thatd you are replying to me. But I'm tired of inferring. When you want a reply from me, start actually replying to me in a way that has QUOTE boxes. Until then, I have no black and white proof that you're talking to me, Belanger-lover.

Crucis
07-24-2012, 01:10 AM
I just can't wrap my head around this: of all the problems on this team, replacing MIKE AVILES is your first order of business?

He has a hardon for "Belanger" (all glove, no stick) Iglesias.

Nomar
07-24-2012, 01:32 AM
I am comparing Aviles offense with other players of the same offensive skills, but who had better gloves. I would take all the players listed over Aviles. I would NOT take Lugo as a quality SS. He was average at best defensively and his bat wasn't much different than Aviles.
Again, how do you know Iglesias cannot hit MLB pitching? I sure do not. Unless he has an opportunity you nor I will never know the answer. You are just saying he cannot hit, without any facts to back your position up.

How do we know Darnell McDonald wont win the triple crown next year?

bagwell368
07-24-2012, 09:33 PM
How do you know Iglesias cannot hit.250 in MLB? Yousay he can't hit/ But if you look at his few mlb AB he hits .333 and if you look at hisminors BA he has a career BAA over .240. And, last year in AAA he played wih a broken finger and still hit well enough to keep his average over .240. Trying swinging with a broken finger. It doesn't work too well.

He can't hit. His strike zone judgement/recognition is poor, he doesn't adjust well to pitchers that change speeds a lot, he's very vulnerable to ML level breaking stuff. He doesn't seem to be able to drive the ball at all. That all means - he can't hit relative to your average, or even your 3rd worst AL hitting SS.


So, how is it you can call him a batter who cannot hit .240 in MLB. What statistics are you using? It sure isn't the ones he has accumulated as a professional. See below:

I've watched him, in particular in ST this year. As soon as the pitchers stopped pitching all soft serve fastballs - he was dead. He may develop to being merely weak, but right now until proven otherwise he is awful in a ML setting.

I use a lot of stats, but I also observe a lot since I have a very good background in baseball.


Aviles since May31 has hit ,258 with 2 HRs. Now, is this tons better than Iglesias could hit? It can't be. Has has been nothing but an average SS.

You cite stats and didn't catch that Aviles is having a superior year with the glove by both UZR and BR? So, I guess you don't really watch - just go with prevailing opinion. What about the xBH count in that time? 10 doubles. I can promise you Iglesias wouldn't have 2 HR's and 10 2B's since May 31st, nor Aviles slash line either - he's be lower on all of them.


Dave Concepcion won 5 gold gloves and only hit for a .267 career BA.
Ozzie Smith career .262 career BA and a good number of gold gloves
Rafael Santana 1986 NY Mets .218 BA World Champs
Juan Uribe .252 BA on 2005 White Sox WS Champions
Juan Uribe .248 BA on 2010 SF Giants WS Champions.

So? Ozzie Smith was an average hitting SS for his time and the best or second best fielding SS of all time. How does Iglesias have anything to do with that? I do not believe Iglesias can steal bases anywhere near as well as Ozzie could. So bogus comparison.

Concepcion was a good player for a long time, but never had a whiff of the HOF, his career will almost for sure exceed Iglesias's - for sure with the bat, and base stealing.

Uribe and Santana were feebs - so what's the point? You can win with a feeb at SS? Never said you couldn't. But life is certainly easier if you do not have a feeb at SS. You champion the feebs, I'll stick with the real players. (sorry to anyone that doesn't like the term feeb).


Who can say Iglesias cannot hit .250 in the MLB. What are you basing your opinion on? It cannot be his professional stats.

Asked an answered.

bagwell368
07-24-2012, 09:56 PM
I am comparing Aviles offense with other players of the same offensive skills, but who had better gloves. I would take all the players listed over Aviles. I would NOT take Lugo as a quality SS. He was average at best defensively and his bat wasn't much different than Aviles.
Again, how do you know Iglesias cannot hit MLB pitching? I sure do not. Unless he has an opportunity you nor I will never know the answer. You are just saying he cannot hit, without any facts to back your position up.

Aviles is a better hitter relative to SS of his time then all 4 of your examples - in particular Uribe. So fail.

Yes, it's clear you do not know that Iglesias cannot hit or not. Let me assure you that I know at this time, he cannot hit well enough to be the starting SS for the BRS today.

Facts? Judgement.

1. Read the scouts judgements - very dour on his chances as a productive ML hitter.

2. While my experience is deeper on the pitching side, on the hitting side I hung out for years with a my friend that was a D1 hitting star, he taught me a lot, and we went to the cages hundreds of times over a 20 year period. Then I started hanging around with top local hitting coaches (sorry removed names for privacy reasons). One of the results is me getting paid as a coach (pitching and hitting) The other is having two sons that excel at their respective levels (entering Jr year in college, and Soph year in HS).

So in summary - Iglesias is a feeb at this time.

Now it's true he's young and has been hurt, so he's missed a good year of development, so he's likely to improve, but a .205/.225/.235 hitter (my projection for him full time this year) isn't going to cut it with fans, or with Management. He's NL bound IMO.

Nomar
07-24-2012, 09:57 PM
Iglesias flat out sucks, hes a defensive replacement. Hes a throw in for any trade at this point, and its obvious the Sox dont seem him as our SS of the future.

IMO the same thing is going to be said for Marrero, didnt like that pick at all.