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View Full Version : Which All-Time Great player had the least help in getting there?



Chronz
07-20-2012, 08:00 PM
Lets set the arbitrary cut off to top10-12

Whoever that list of players may consist of is up to you but which of those players would you feel had the least support from his teammates/management to get to that ranking?

StarvingKnick22
07-20-2012, 08:09 PM
Wilt Chamberlin with the Warriors

Bruno
07-20-2012, 08:12 PM
Hakeem 1994.

eternal slumber
07-20-2012, 08:15 PM
Hakeem 1994.

agreed.

Avenged
07-20-2012, 08:17 PM
I'm thinking Duncan..?

LAKERMANIA
07-20-2012, 08:19 PM
I'd say Hakeem too

eternal slumber
07-20-2012, 08:24 PM
I'm thinking Duncan..?

Duncan had Robinson on 1999.

had both Parker and Ginobili in 2003, 2005 and 2007.

even though Parker didn't played that well in 2003.

Swashcuff
07-20-2012, 08:27 PM
Between Duncan in 03 and Hakeem in 94 IMO.

Aust
07-20-2012, 08:29 PM
Prevailing opinion seems to be Hakeem

StarvingKnick22
07-20-2012, 08:29 PM
kenny Smith, SAM CASSEL dont exist right?

KB-Pau-DH2012
07-20-2012, 08:34 PM
Shaq 00, 01, 02, because according to PSD, he was the sole and main reason why the Lakers won the title. :rolleyes:

Yankeefan213
07-20-2012, 08:40 PM
I'd say Hakeem 94 easily.

xILLN355
07-20-2012, 08:44 PM
rick barry, lulz

Toastyy
07-20-2012, 08:44 PM
Last place is bird

Hustlenomics
07-20-2012, 08:46 PM
allen iverson had little help

Chronz
07-20-2012, 08:51 PM
I'm talking for careers

sunsfan88
07-20-2012, 08:54 PM
Wade 2006.

asandhu23
07-20-2012, 08:56 PM
rick barry, lulz

this.


i would also say Wes Unseld...

asandhu23
07-20-2012, 08:59 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WSB/1978.html

bholly
07-20-2012, 09:02 PM
this.


i would also say Wes Unseld...

So you're saying you consider Wes Unseld to be a top 10-12 player?

asandhu23
07-20-2012, 09:07 PM
So you're saying you consider Wes Unseld to be a top 10-12 player?

no but he is an "All Time Great"

JollyRanch
07-20-2012, 09:10 PM
Wade 2006.

don't call him dwhistle for nothing

Hellcrooner
07-20-2012, 09:16 PM
allen iverson had little help

did you read the part where he says top 10-12 players all time?

lavilevi23
07-20-2012, 09:20 PM
Wade 2006 Hakeem 1994

Six-8-TheWizard
07-20-2012, 09:41 PM
Wilt and its not even close

GSWFanInLA
07-20-2012, 09:43 PM
Dirk is a pretty good recent one.

b@llhog24
07-20-2012, 09:46 PM
Hakeem 1994.

This.

b@llhog24
07-20-2012, 09:48 PM
I'm talking for careers

It's still probably Hakeem.


Dirk is a pretty good recent one.

1) If he's talking about careers then Dirk has had some pretty stacked teams over the years.

2) Dirk isn't top 15.

albertc86
07-20-2012, 09:49 PM
allen iverson had little help

Yes and no.

The eastern conference wasn't particularly great during the early decade. The top teams were a one-man wrecking crew. Think about it... Carter, McGrady, Iverson, Pierce [although he had Walker]. It wasn't until the Nets and Detroit came along and brought team-oriented play.

ohreally
07-20-2012, 09:51 PM
Wilt and its not even close

This

ragee
07-20-2012, 09:51 PM
Wade 2006.

He had the refs. :laugh:

Hustlenomics
07-20-2012, 09:58 PM
did you read the part where he says top 10-12 players all time?

i seen all time great in the title

Swashcuff
07-20-2012, 09:58 PM
He had the refs. :laugh:

The Mavs choked.

ragee
07-20-2012, 10:05 PM
The Mavs choked.

and that too. :laugh:

ohreally
07-20-2012, 10:13 PM
Of course, being a Knick fan, I'd also say Patrick Ewing. I know, but lies, damn lies, and statistics. Patrick was unfairly hampered by foul calls, especially on blocks, and as a result clearly held back until 4th quarters. In 4th quarters he really was THE reason the Knicks choked off opposing teams, he played D against the entire opposing team. Not to mention that oposing centers were allowed to push and shove him all over the place while if he played one-quarter as physical he would be called for fouls left and right.

The Knicks, with all due respect to Oak, reaaly had nothing much yet played Jordan and the Bulls better than anybody. Truly and sorely underrated.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-20-2012, 10:19 PM
Shaq 00, 01, 02, because according to PSD, he was the sole and main reason why the Lakers won the title. :rolleyes:

No one said that. It's a fact Kobe was a great player at the time. Also a fact that he was the sidekick.

Longhornfan1234
07-20-2012, 11:00 PM
03 Duncan and 2012 LeBron.


Admiral was on his last leg, Parker was inconsistent(benched for Speedy), and Manu was a rookie.


LeBron carried a hobbled Wade and Bosh. The Heat have no bench, average pg, and no center.

rhino17
07-20-2012, 11:06 PM
Hakeem and quite easily

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-20-2012, 11:10 PM
Hakeem and Wilt. Duncan would probably come after those two thinking at the top of my head.

_KB24_
07-20-2012, 11:20 PM
It's a tough one. You need a GREAT team to win. In terms of other star power, what Dirk did in 2011 was remarkable.

*Superman*
07-20-2012, 11:25 PM
T-Mac

D12 fan
07-20-2012, 11:29 PM
Dwight carried Turk/Lewis to the finals.

Just sayin.

Blitzbolt
07-20-2012, 11:50 PM
^fangirl

I pick AI.

JordansBulls
07-20-2012, 11:56 PM
Overall I'd say Jordan for career. He went to one of the worst franchises ever and also never played with anyone who won league or finals mvp. Every other top 10-12 player all time have played with guys who either won league or finals mvp at some point. Also MJ won the most titles without having another player who actually made the allstar team on his team. Won 2x as the only allstar, but Hakeem did as well, but Hakeem didn't lead his team in Win Shares in 1995.

NBAfan4life
07-21-2012, 12:18 AM
I guess only JB understands what the OP was asking.

I don't know a ton of history pre mid 90's except what I read from the majority of you guys here. At a glance Jordan, Lebron, and Hakeem. Really cant go wrong with any of those picks IMO.

Xplicit
07-21-2012, 12:23 AM
Lebron James on Cleveland

Chronz
07-21-2012, 12:54 AM
I guess only JB understands what the OP was asking.

I don't know a ton of history pre mid 90's except what I read from the majority of you guys here. At a glance Jordan, Lebron, and Hakeem. Really cant go wrong with any of those picks IMO.

Really? Over Dream and Moses?

Bruno
07-21-2012, 04:43 PM
Since Chronz wants careers, you gotta throw Wilt in there too, right?

LAL had some nice pieces in '72 but they had gotten a bit long in the tooth.

nickdymez
07-21-2012, 04:45 PM
Allen Iverson...

Hawkeye15
07-21-2012, 04:46 PM
If it's for a career, Wilt or maybe even Moses. If it's for a championship run, Hakeem.

Hawkeye15
07-21-2012, 04:47 PM
allen iverson had little help

The OP said top 10-12. Iverson doesn't belong anywhere near there.

--23--
07-21-2012, 04:57 PM
Overall I'd say Jordan for career. He went to one of the worst franchises ever and also never played with anyone who won league or finals mvp. Every other top 10-12 player all time have played with guys who either won league or finals mvp at some point. Also MJ won the most titles without having another player who actually made the allstar team on his team. Won 2x as the only allstar, but Hakeem did as well, but Hakeem didn't lead his team in Win Shares in 1995.

^this

i would also pick Wilt & Hakeem.

NBAfan4life
07-21-2012, 05:05 PM
Really? Over Dream and Moses?

I said dream as one of the three I picked

JoeyBoy718
07-21-2012, 05:28 PM
career = oscar robertson

Six-8-TheWizard
07-21-2012, 05:58 PM
Wilt had no one around him at all. The season he averaged 50 something, he went out and did so because the coach told him that if he didnt start dominating like that then they wouldnt even make the playoffs lol

AIRMAR72
07-21-2012, 06:22 PM
the dream

Bruno
07-21-2012, 06:27 PM
is there a single non-bulls fan who thinks Jordan is in the debate here?

Becks2307
07-21-2012, 06:33 PM
yes i totally think jordan is. You could argue wilt but what did he win? 1 chip right? unless it doesn't matter how much you win,

hidalgo
07-21-2012, 06:36 PM
Olajuwon 1994 tops this thing. otis thorpe as his #2 option. cassel was a rookie & didn't play all that much, far from prime cassel. in 95 he had drexler, an amazing HOF 2nd option, but 1994 wow he did it alone basically

&

Michael Jordan all 6 times. just Scottie to help, & did it as the only allstar on the team in 91 & 98. of the top 5 players or so he definitely had the least help & always did the heavy lifting. no disrespect to Scottie

i'm talking about winning, not just getting there. iverson & Lebron did drag some crappy rosters to the finals, especially Lebron, worst finals roster ever outside himself. that's almost as impressive as his finals mvp

naps
07-21-2012, 06:38 PM
Wilt and LeBron.

psperry34116
07-21-2012, 06:50 PM
Wilt and its not even close

It is a complete myth that Wilt had no good players surrounding him. His Sixers teams in the mid sixties had Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker and Hal Greer, all Hall of Famers in their primes. On his Warriors teams from 60-62, he played with Guy Rodgers, who was a 4 time all star and led the NBA in assists twice, as well as Paul Arizin and Tom Gola, two more Hall of Famers. It also took him 4 seasons to win a title while playing with ****ing Elgin Baylor and Jerry West. Dude had plenty of help

psperry34116
07-21-2012, 06:56 PM
To compare, Kobe has played with 4 players who made the all star team with him in his career, Duncan played with 3, Jordan played with 3, Wilt played with 11

psperry34116
07-21-2012, 06:56 PM
Wilt just didn't win so people assume he never had help

hidalgo
07-21-2012, 06:57 PM
Of course, being a Knick fan, I'd also say Patrick Ewing. I know, but lies, damn lies, and statistics. Patrick was unfairly hampered by foul calls, especially on blocks, and as a result clearly held back until 4th quarters. In 4th quarters he really was THE reason the Knicks choked off opposing teams, he played D against the entire opposing team. Not to mention that oposing centers were allowed to push and shove him all over the place while if he played one-quarter as physical he would be called for fouls left and right.

The Knicks, with all due respect to Oak, reaaly had nothing much yet played Jordan and the Bulls better than anybody. Truly and sorely underrated.
those 90s knicks were awesome, i think anyone who was truly paying attention appreciates them. Ewing never really had another hall of famer, but he had some seious gamers on his team, & sporatic allstars. they played amazing defense. they were so close in 1994 they can almost be considered co-champs. full 7 games, & a close game 7 hard to tell who was the best. one thing was clear, Olajuwon was better than Ewing, the dream was unstoppable those years. not a knock on the great Ewing at all. but yea those knicks rocked, they always gave the bulls a tough series

Vinylman
07-21-2012, 07:06 PM
pretty easy actually

jj barrea

knicks4life33
07-21-2012, 07:10 PM
hakeem and ewing

Raph12
07-21-2012, 07:11 PM
Robert Horry

Fnom11
07-21-2012, 07:12 PM
Kareem, maybe Duncan, maybe even Lebron depending on where you ranked him before Mia.

wpregana
07-21-2012, 07:43 PM
Reggie miller??

hidalgo
07-21-2012, 07:58 PM
i dunno, the pacers had a really strong roster in my opinion

bbcmillionaire
07-21-2012, 08:02 PM
Lmao wade a top 10 top 11 player,

BlahaTRUTH
07-21-2012, 09:39 PM
Iverson almost took a team of scrubs to a championship.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-21-2012, 09:41 PM
It is a complete myth that Wilt had no good players surrounding him. His Sixers teams in the mid sixties had Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker and Hal Greer, all Hall of Famers in their primes. On his Warriors teams from 60-62, he played with Guy Rodgers, who was a 4 time all star and led the NBA in assists twice, as well as Paul Arizin and Tom Gola, two more Hall of Famers. It also took him 4 seasons to win a title while playing with ****ing Elgin Baylor and Jerry West. Dude had plenty of help

Yea, but during those days, there was like 10 teams. Easier to make an all star team and get all these achievements.

Chronz
07-22-2012, 01:08 AM
It is a complete myth that Wilt had no good players surrounding him. His Sixers teams in the mid sixties had Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker and Hal Greer, all Hall of Famers in their primes. On his Warriors teams from 60-62, he played with Guy Rodgers, who was a 4 time all star and led the NBA in assists twice, as well as Paul Arizin and Tom Gola, two more Hall of Famers. It also took him 4 seasons to win a title while playing with ****ing Elgin Baylor and Jerry West. Dude had plenty of help
Its all relative to your era tho, like Oscar Robertson had some decent guys but in an era where Russell played with so many more great players, is him having a few guys really more impressive than some other guy having an equal number of good players in a league that didnt have 1 team hogging all them all?

Still I think your exaggerating, that Warriors team you refer to was the 2nd worst team in the league the year before Wilt showed up and that was with them being younger. How impressive could that cast be if all they could muster was a 7th ranked efficiency level?

By comparison, Russell's Celtics were the 3rd best team in the league and added the Rookie of the Year on top of adding Russell, that catapulted them to the top.




To compare, Kobe has played with 4 players who made the all star team with him in his career, Duncan played with 3, Jordan played with 3, Wilt played with 11
Again its all relative but I like what your doing, I want to try that for several players but since Im not smart enough to figure out how to account for that lets do this kind of analysis for players from the same era. Difference being Im counting the years played alongside those players instead of the variety. Far more relevant

Support level throughout Hakeem/MJ's prime (Subjectively settling at age 23-34, which hurts Dream abit).

Focusing on years in which their teammates achieved the following:


# of All-NBA 1st Teamers
Hakeem: 0
MJ: 2

# of All-NBA 2nd Teamers
Hakeem: 0
MJ: 2

# of All-NBA 3rd Teamers
Hakeem: 1
MJ: 2

# of All-Star Teammates
Hakeem: 6
MJ: 8

# of All-Defensive 1st Teamers
Hakeem: 1
MJ: 8

# of All-Defensive 2nd Teamers
Hakeem: 1
MJ: 3


The flaw with this is that it ignores availability in the playoffs, still, does anyone seriously think MJ had the least help when Dream seems to be the easier decision from the same era.

Oefarmy2005
07-22-2012, 01:10 AM
KG - every year in Minnesota besides '03-04

dh144498
07-23-2012, 12:27 PM
all time fmvp (superstars) who had the least help/least amount of star power while winning the finals, just from the top of my head:
Hakeem
Dirk

especially dirk when the mavs took on the heavily favored Heat. :worthy:

BklynKnicks3
07-23-2012, 12:35 PM
iverson

BklynKnicks3
07-23-2012, 12:35 PM
Dirk hakeem

JiffyMix88
07-23-2012, 12:49 PM
Shaq 00, 01, 02, because according to PSD, he was the sole and main reason why the Lakers won the title. :rolleyes:

agreed :clap:

JordansBulls
07-23-2012, 01:08 PM
Since Chronz wants careers, you gotta throw Wilt in there too, right?

LAL had some nice pieces in '72 but they had gotten a bit long in the tooth.

How do you have to throw Wilt in there as well? He was the 2nd leading scorer on his team in the playoffs when he won his first title and was the 5th leading scorer in the finals and scoring was his greatest attribute. Not to mention one year he averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals and his teammate won finals mvp and averaged 37.9 ppg in the finals. How the hell did he have the least help getting there?

PhillyBronco08
07-23-2012, 01:09 PM
Iverson

KingPosey
07-23-2012, 01:20 PM
Mitch Richmond

KaganRS
07-23-2012, 01:27 PM
I think you should've just listed the players

juggla53
07-23-2012, 01:40 PM
definatley wilt with the warriors

juggla53
07-23-2012, 01:48 PM
How do you have to throw Wilt in there as well? He was the 2nd leading scorer on his team in the playoffs when he won his first title and was the 5th leading scorer in the finals and scoring was his greatest attribute. Not to mention one year he averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals and his teammate won finals mvp and averaged 37.9 ppg in the finals. How the hell did he have the least help getting there?

#1 where in the title or first post doesnt it say anything about championships? its asking about all time great players who became that good with the least support.

#2 wilt played for the warriors for his first 7 seasons and already established himself as an all time great when he had NOBODY else on his team. He didnt win a ring untill 1966 when he was on the 76ers (yes that was a great team) but he was already established by that point.

Again nowhere on the title or opening post does it say anything about championships. Its asking about all time greatness as an individual player and wilt absolutley dominated for years without any sort of team around him

NoahH
07-23-2012, 01:50 PM
LeBron 2012 :hide:

dh144498
07-23-2012, 02:25 PM
LeBron 2012 :hide:

:laugh2::laugh2:

BSplaya2121
07-23-2012, 05:26 PM
allen iverson had little help

r u kidding aaron mckee and toddy mac were in their primes :P .. but i do agree with this

dalton749
07-23-2012, 06:03 PM
lol dirk didnt have help.
the highest paid team with a 90 million dollar pay roll and there was no help lmao

ink
07-23-2012, 08:47 PM
The shallow answers in this thread reflect the shallowness of the cliched concept of players having "help". It's a PSD level cliche, not a serious basketball idea like the passing thread was tbh.

BURAKOBE
07-24-2012, 02:21 AM
Shaq 00, 01, 02, because according to PSD, he was the sole and main reason why the Lakers won the title. :rolleyes:

spot on bro.

Ebbs
07-24-2012, 05:37 AM
Are people honestly trying to tell me Duncan had less talent than Dirk? If so GTFO

thenaj17
07-24-2012, 06:23 AM
Anyone saying Wilt is talking rubbish. In those days he was playing against chumps so the players he was playing against were comparable with his own team. He was just so much better than anyone else at the time.