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Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 03:44 AM
Raise your hand if you thought it would be the Yankees at this juncture of the season.

Buckwheat
07-15-2012, 04:02 AM
Having the best record doesn't make you the best team, does it?

AWC713
07-15-2012, 04:13 AM
they live by the long ball and die by the long ball. i dont know how that style of play will fare for them in the playoffs.

yes, they are the best team, right now, by a from a pure W-L standpoint, but I wouldnt say they're the best team. They're a product, largely, of their stadium. Cano and Jeter seem to be the only guys that take the ball oppo, so I respect the **** outta them.

mikepelfrey
07-15-2012, 04:42 AM
regardless of the style of play they do have the best record, while missing Rivera, chamberlain, Gardner and Pineda, all year and Pettite and Sabathia and Robertson, for parts of it. Then when you consider the whole AL East is at or above .500 youd have to conclude they are the best team.

The Al East is 30 games over 500, no other division is within 15 games of that and the yankees despite all that have an 8 game lead, the largest by far in the majors

anyone who says otherwise is just biased, you just tip your cap to em and say good job.....I do know this if youd have told me that theyd be without Mariano and Robertson Pineda and Gardner for much of the season and they hardly skipped a beat Id have thought you were crazy

masTOR_shake1
07-15-2012, 04:59 AM
Having the best record doesn't make you the best team, does it?

It does if you are in the A.L east and have the best record. I'll admit, I thought/hoped that the yankees would scuffle this year but props to them thus far :sigh:.

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 05:06 AM
The Yanks were supposed to be middling or last according to some who thought the Rays and Jays had built "leaner" rosters from the grassroots... And those who said so were adamant and pious in their predictions. It is noteworthy that the "old" team with the overpriced superstars has been so dominant, despite the predictions of the people who are supposedly never wrong.

JohnBoy326
07-15-2012, 05:15 AM
Doubt the Yankees win the World Series, that's what makes you the best team right?

I'll go Cardinals until someone else wins the ship this year, they have some stupid magic that works for them in September.

Mousedog332
07-15-2012, 05:25 AM
You should wait to ask this question after the trade deadline. Especially if Upton, Hammels or Greinke get traded. They would be a huge addition and can vastly improve a team.

Toxeryll
07-15-2012, 05:45 AM
Yankees

nyyfan4life
07-15-2012, 06:10 AM
Yankees, IMO plus they will be getting tons of reinforcements as the season progresses to an already strong roster.

Sabathia will start next week. Joba and Gardner are due back sometime in early August. David Aardsma is another that should be back before September. Pettitte is tentatively set to return in September and there are reports that Mariano Rivera may pitch again this season.

The biggest weakness the Yankees still have is that they have to rely on Phil Hughes and Ivan Nova in providing quality innings. They have done so in the 1st half, lets see if they can continue to provide average - above average pitching as the season continues. A lot can happen until late-September though.

MetsFanatic19
07-15-2012, 09:06 AM
i still say it's the rangers, but the yankees are probably just as good, if not the better team

mikepelfrey
07-15-2012, 11:11 AM
Doubt the Yankees win the World Series, that's what makes you the best team right?

I'll go Cardinals until someone else wins the ship this year, they have some stupid magic that works for them in September.

no that just means you were the hottest team at the right time

baseball is a war of attrition, injuries are often a deciding factor

if chris carpenter had been injured late last season instead of coming back from the injury to be fresh for the post season do you honestly believe they would have won?

baseball is a marathon that earns you the right to participate in a sprint called the playoffs

and the sprint comes at the end when youve worn yourself ragged trying to get there

rocket
07-15-2012, 12:15 PM
Raise your hand if you thought it would be the Yankees at this juncture of the season.

I'll put mine down and smack you with it. As someone said having the best record doesn't mean ****.

Rangers>Yanks

sexicano31
07-15-2012, 12:27 PM
God I just LOVE knob stroking threads

Public Enemy #1
07-15-2012, 12:38 PM
Yanks have the best record but like people are saying above, doesn't mean they have the best team. They benefit hugely from playing at Yankee Stadium. There pitching hasn't hurt them yet but lets see how it goes when they get to the playoffs and the Yankees are against aces every other night. Yanks fall apart in the playoffs because they aren't built for the playoffs. Defense and pitching wins championships.... Pitching is something the Yanks really don't have, at least elite... Other than C.C., I wouldn't trust anybody else in their rotation for a playoff game

oak2455
07-15-2012, 12:54 PM
God I just LOVE knob stroking threads

That's why there's porn threads..... Coming soon

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 01:08 PM
Yanks have the best record but like people are saying above, doesn't mean they have the best team. They benefit hugely from playing at Yankee Stadium. There pitching hasn't hurt them yet but lets see how it goes when they get to the playoffs and the Yankees are against aces every other night. Yanks fall apart in the playoffs because they aren't built for the playoffs. Defense and pitching wins championships.... Pitching is something the Yanks really don't have, at least elite... Other than C.C., I wouldn't trust anybody else in their rotation for a playoff game

Why haven't their opponents benefited from playing AT Yankees Stadium?

But I hear what you're saying about being built for the playoffs. However, they did make a pretty dominant run a couple years ago on the back of CC, Pettitte, and Burnett. I think Pettitte has pitched better this year than I've ever seen him and when he comes back I trust him completely as the #2. Kuroda has been more than the Yankees could have hoped for, and Nova is solid. Hughes I have no faith in.

Yankee Clipper
07-15-2012, 01:10 PM
Why haven't their opponents benefited from playing AT Yankees Stadium?

But I hear what you're saying about being built for the playoffs. However, they did make a pretty dominant run a couple years ago on the back of CC, Pettitte, and Burnett. I think Pettitte has pitched better this year than I've ever seen him and when he comes back I trust him completely as the #2. Kuroda has been more than the Yankees could have hoped for, and Nova is solid. Hughes I have no faith in.

I still laugh when people continue to say that only the Yankees benefit from the short porch of Yankee Stadium :laugh2:

NYYrdbest
07-15-2012, 01:11 PM
Having the best record doesn't make you the best team, does it?

Of course, the intention is to win and in the process you become the very best! We know that there is a long way to go, but right now the Yankees are the Best, period!

Lenny
07-15-2012, 01:11 PM
The Lenster is wondering how these guys are Yankees fans nowhere near New York. The Lenster doesn't understand.

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 01:28 PM
I grew up 5 minutes walking from the Stadium. Multiple season ticket holder. Moved to Colorado a year ago. Don't disrespect.

VRP723
07-15-2012, 01:29 PM
*Raises hand*

I said all year the Yankees were the best team in baseball, made a bet with my dad about it too, so I'll be coming into some money soon.

d79cheese
07-15-2012, 01:30 PM
Who would have guessed that Mr Haha would have created a thread to boast about his favorite players/teams???

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 01:32 PM
Who would have guessed that Mr Haha would have created a thread to boast about his favorite players/teams???

If it weren't for the many, many disrespectful and failed predictions early in the season by the most ardent sabrmatricians (who are outstanding at evaluating, but seemingly awful at forecasting), I wouldn't have made this thread.

d79cheese
07-15-2012, 01:36 PM
If it weren't for the many, many disrespectful and failed predictions early in the season by the most ardent sabrmatricians (who are outstanding at evaluating, but seemingly awful at forecasting), I wouldn't have made this thread.

Thats the point, you only made this thread to "get back" at the saberheads. Just about all of your threads are vindictive in nature where you are trying to get back at someone for having an opinion different then yours. Just make this thread like everyone else, ask who is better and put a poll up. No need to have that yankee remark in the original post.

sexicano31
07-15-2012, 01:36 PM
Ah how very mature of you! Na-na-na boo-boo, stick your head in doo-doo is basically what you're saying

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 01:37 PM
Thats the point, you only made this thread to "get back" at the saberheads. Just about all of your threads are vindictive in nature where you are trying to get back at someone for having an opinion different then yours. Just make this thread like everyone else, ask who is better and put a poll up. No need to have that yankee remark in the original post.

If someone would like to add a poll, please do. And there is nothing wrong with pointing out when people have been way off base, especially when the people in question consider their claims irrefutable.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 01:48 PM
Raise your hand if you thought it would be the Yankees at this juncture of the season.

I did, lol.

I'm sure I can find the post history if I look hard enough.

But I figured it would be Yankees, then Rangers, then Tigers, then Cardinals.

So my first two were right lol.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 01:50 PM
Thats the point, you only made this thread to "get back" at the saberheads. Just about all of your threads are vindictive in nature where you are trying to get back at someone for having an opinion different then yours. Just make this thread like everyone else, ask who is better and put a poll up. No need to have that yankee remark in the original post.

yup.

I'll add a poll though.

Lenny
07-15-2012, 01:54 PM
Why haven't their opponents benefited from playing AT Yankees Stadium?

But I hear what you're saying about being built for the playoffs. However, they did make a pretty dominant run a couple years ago on the back of CC, Pettitte, and Burnett. I think Pettitte has pitched better this year than I've ever seen him and when he comes back I trust him completely as the #2. Kuroda has been more than the Yankees could have hoped for, and Nova is solid. Hughes I have no faith in.

I still laugh when people continue to say that only the Yankees benefit from the short porch of Yankee Stadium :laugh2: The Lenster always laughs when Yankees fans don't realize the play 82 games there and not 6-7 or 19 games. That's quite a difference.

The Lenster hates front runners that call teams from all over the country "their" teams. "WE won the most championships!" Bitxh, you're not even from New York or anywhere close. That's what the Lenster thinks.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 01:56 PM
Btw, entering today

Top run differentials

1. Rangers +73
2. Yankees +68
3. Cardinals +67
4. Nationals +61
4. White Sox +61

Last 5

25. Marlins -59
25. Cubs -59
27. Rockies -65
28. Padres -76
29. Astros -77
30. Twins 96

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 02:01 PM
The Lenster always laughs when Yankees fans don't realize the play 82 games there and not 6-7 or 19 games. That's quite a difference.

The Lenster hates front runners that call teams from all over the country "their" teams. "WE won the most championships!" Bitxh, you're not even from New York or anywhere close. That's what the Lenster thinks.

I was born and raised and lived most of my adult life in the Bronx. OK, Lenster? I'll be saying "we" about the bombers until I die, no matter where I am.

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 02:03 PM
Of course, the intention is to win and in the process you become the very best! We know that there is a long way to go, but right now the Yankees are the Best, period!

No, dummy. The point is to accumulate WAR wins.

fingerbang
07-15-2012, 02:13 PM
Jeter was supposed to be in his third season as a DH. Arod in a retirement home, and Adrian Gonzalez was supposed to have about 30 home runs already.

Cheezombie
07-15-2012, 02:17 PM
I say the Rangers, but I never doubted the Yanks.

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 02:20 PM
Jeter was supposed to be in his third season as a DH. Arod in a retirement home, and Adrian Gonzalez was supposed to have about 30 home runs already.

Jete's demise has been ongoing for about the past 7 or 8 seasons. Gotta love the online experts...

Lenny
07-15-2012, 02:22 PM
The Lenster always laughs when Yankees fans don't realize the play 82 games there and not 6-7 or 19 games. That's quite a difference.

The Lenster hates front runners that call teams from all over the country "their" teams. "WE won the most championships!" Bitxh, you're not even from New York or anywhere close. That's what the Lenster thinks.

I was born and raised and lived most of my adult life in the Bronx. OK, Lenster? I'll be saying "we" about the bombers until I die, no matter where I am. That's fine with the Lenster, Haha. You notice all the other front runners that didn't respind to that though? The Lenster knows they are not from anywhere near NY and it's cool to like the Yankees because of their history and winng ways. They will claim they have been a fan their whole lives! But the Lenster knows they are at most 22 years old and have been there since the beginning! Wow....that sure is a long time!

1903
07-15-2012, 02:24 PM
That's fine with the Lenster, Haha. You notice all the other front runners that didn't respind to that though? The Lenster knows they are not from anywhere near NY and it's cool to like the Yankees because of their history and winng ways. They will claim they have been a fan their whole lives! But the Lenster knows they are at most 22 years old and have been there since the beginning! Wow....that sure is a long time!

I became a fan last week.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 02:30 PM
Jete's demise has been ongoing for about the past 7 or 8 seasons. Gotta love the online experts...

Jeter did exactly what most position players do.

They start to decline at the age of 32.

He is a hall of famer, so he has thrown in a few good years since that time as well. But he is clearly on the decline, and absolutely declining defensively (as was expected).

Did you just make this thread to shove your finger in people's noses and say you were right about something nobody cares about?

Anyway, Jeter WAR by age
Age 32 - 5.4
Age 33 - 3.7
34 - 2.7
35 - 6.4
36 - 1.6
37 - 0.9
38 - 0.8

Typically, a player declines about 5-10% per year after the age of 32. Some elite hall of famers like (like Hank Aaron) can post-pone their decline until 35ish. And obviously there are outliers, like Bonds. Usually the position players that can post-pone their decline the longest are the great hitters, not the glove guys.

Jeter has done what most expected him to do, his age 35 was great, but it was atypical. Nobody said he couldn't have some great years still. But that his best years were likely behind him. Which for the most part was true.

If you are a 6 WAR player at the age of 32, you usually decline down to 5-5.5 WAR at 33, 4.2-5 WAR by 34 and so on. Jeter has not avoided his decline, he is clearly declining by all accounts.

FortDetroit
07-15-2012, 02:31 PM
no they aren't. best record does not equal best team.

fingerbang
07-15-2012, 02:36 PM
UZR blows and it ruins WAR. Having said that, Jeter's bat has declined a bit, his fielding, not so much. All the experts said he'd be a DH by about 2010. Well, here we are in 12' and they're still winning games with that no talent short stop. Even George Brett said his defense was fine.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 02:36 PM
UZR blows and it ruins WAR. Having said that, Jeter's bat has declined a bit, his fielding, not so much. All the experts said he'd be a DH by about 2010. Well, here we are in 12' and they're still winning games with that no talent short stop. Even George Brett said his defense was fine.

UZR was not used in my WAR rankings that were just provided.

fingerbang
07-15-2012, 02:42 PM
UZR was not used in my WAR rankings that were just provided.

Not a fangraphs man? Probably because they give him more credit. Where'd you get those WARs?

fingerbang
07-15-2012, 02:43 PM
I love it. It's such a great stat yet it varies depending on where you get it.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 03:20 PM
Not a fangraphs man? Probably because they give him more credit. Where'd you get those WARs?

Baseball-reference, and it doesn't matter.

Fangraphs hates Jeter a lot more than Baseball-reference.

Baseball-reference
Jeter WAR by age
Age 32 - 5.4
Age 33 - 3.7
34 - 2.7
35 - 6.4
36 - 1.6
37 - 0.9
38 - 0.8

Fangraphs
Age 32 - 6.3
33 - 3.8
34 - 3.8
35 - 7.1
36 - 2.7
37 - 2.3
38 - 1.1

If you go by Fangraphs, and compare him to other shortstops by Fangraphs, he doesn't look as good as he does by Baseball-Reference.

UZR hates Jeter. Total Zone and dWAR don't like him either, but they impact his WAR stat less. This year, he already has a -12.7 UZR, which is really weighing him down.

But let's keep going

DRS
32 - -16
33 - -24
34 - -10
35 - 3
36 - -9
37 - -15
38 - -11 (already)

wRC
32 - 142
33 - 125
34 - 108
35 - 134
36 - 94
37 - 104
38 - 110

His net run differential per year

32 - 126
33 - 101
34 - 98
35 - 137
36 - 85
37 - 89
38 - 99

fingerbang
07-15-2012, 03:30 PM
So what's the point though then? I said that all the experts said he'd be a DH by 2010 and here he is playing fine. I said his bat declined but he's still obviously serviceable. Furthermore, those numbers tend to show that he's been a relatively consistent hitter from 36-38 but that's when you're supposed to see that giant fall off.

I don't need a sabermatrician to understand that a guy is going to lose power as he gets into his latter years. My beef is with those who said he wouldn't play able to play the position at his current age. They were all wrong.

sexicano31
07-15-2012, 03:32 PM
They weren't really wrong, he isn't exactly good at SS

fingerbang
07-15-2012, 03:34 PM
They weren't really wrong, he isn't exactly good at SS

According to them he wasn't exactly good at SS when he was in his 20's. He was supposed to not just be baaad at the age of 38, but so bad that he'd be a DH.

SportsNY
07-15-2012, 03:39 PM
Braves are HOT right now.

DodgerB24
07-15-2012, 03:43 PM
Cubs.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 03:48 PM
So what's the point though then? I said that all the experts said he'd be a DH by 2010 and here he is playing fine. I said his bat declined but he's still obviously serviceable. Furthermore, those numbers tend to show that he's been a relatively consistent hitter from 36-38 but that's when you're supposed to see that giant fall off.

I don't need a sabermatrician to understand that a guy is going to lose power as he gets into his latter years. My beef is with those who said he wouldn't play able to play the position at his current age. They were all wrong.

He can't play the position, every single statistic says he can't.

Just look at his defensive runs saved since 06
DRS
32 - -16
33 - -24
34 - -10
35 - 3
36 - -9
37 - -15
38 - -11 (already)

That is horrible, in fact, the worst of any shortstop in that time span.

The Yankees tend to keep guys at defensive positions out of respect far past their declines (like Bernie Williams in center and Posada at catcher).

Jeter has no business playing short, he wouldn't even be a productive defensive second basemen.

But as an offensive player, his bat is quite good for the position. If you can deal with all the base hits that get through at short.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 03:50 PM
According to them he wasn't exactly good at SS when he was in his 20's. He was supposed to not just be baaad at the age of 38, but so bad that he'd be a DH.

Just because the Yankees haven't moved him off of short like they should have doesn't mean everyone else was wrong.

He should have moved off the position a long time ago.

HoodedSB
07-15-2012, 03:51 PM
At the risk of sounding like a homer, I'm picking the angels. Their bats are hot and they have great starting pitching. The yankees are very close and have better hitters but the halos have the pitching edge.

goldenstater
07-15-2012, 03:53 PM
i truthfully don't see any great team in the league this year every team you look at has flaws and i really dont see anyone pulling away from the pack all that much. saying that i would say the Rangers are the overall "best" team. although best is kind of a silly word cause i think a lot of teams could beat each other on any given day right now.

fingerbang
07-15-2012, 03:55 PM
Just because the Yankees haven't moved him off of short like they should have doesn't mean everyone else was wrong.

He should have moved off the position a long time ago.

Just like how the Red Sox were the new big dogs in town under Theo. Now he's in Chicago and Terry's a broadcaster. The Yankees are old and finished.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 03:55 PM
Just like how the Red Sox were the new big dogs in town under Theo. Now he's in Chicago and Terry's a broadcaster. The Yankees are old and finished.

What? What does this have to do with Jeter?

BKdoubleStacker
07-15-2012, 03:56 PM
A's are HOT right now.

yea they are

fingerbang
07-15-2012, 04:01 PM
What? What does this have to do with Jeter?

It has to do with the experts not being as dead on as they think they are.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 04:04 PM
It has to do with the experts not being as dead on as they think they are.

I'm sorry. What did they say about Theo then?

And they were right about Jeter. Just because he is still playing short doesn't mean he should be. He is horrible at short defensively, arguably the worst of all time.

fingerbang
07-15-2012, 04:09 PM
I'm sorry. What did they say about Theo then?

And they were right about Jeter. Just because he is still playing short doesn't mean he should be. He is horrible at short defensively, arguably the worst of all time.

My point is you're using a fangraph stat that's created by the same people that said the Yankees were finished and that the Red Sox were going to be the new beasts of the east. It's not the gospel.

Furthermore, you've spent all this time talking about his decline. According to fangrapghs he's basically been consistently terrible his whole career and therefore hasn't been kept at the position for too long... he shouldn't have been allowed to play there to begin with.

KingPosey
07-15-2012, 04:10 PM
All you people SHOCKED at the Yankees, just look at their line up. They should compete, regardless of any other measure, they crush the ball, in a stadium with a short porch.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 04:11 PM
My point is you're using a fangraph stat that's created by the same people that said the Yankees were finished and that the Red Sox were going to be the new beasts of the east. It's not the gospel.

Furthermore, you've spent all this time talking about his decline. According to fangrapghs he's basically been consistently terrible his whole career and therefore hasn't been kept at the position for too long... he shouldn't have been allowed to play there to begin with.

He was decent in his 20's, it's just since then he has been horrible.

Not every writer on Fangraphs is right every time, obviously. I disagree with a lot of their writers a lot personally.

And WAR, there are several sites that have their own WAR stats, you choose what information you think is valuable when putting information into context. You don't have to agree with everything everyone always says.

But yes, Jeter should have been moved off short a long time ago. Would have really helped him.

fingerbang
07-15-2012, 04:18 PM
Fangrapghs had him at a -23 UZR at like 26 years old. The second half of his career with regards to UZR looks eerily similar to his first half.

Kevin Youklis, there's a guy that declined quickly. But he was supposed to kicking Yankee *** right now.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 04:19 PM
I don't know what point you are trying to make other than that some people online are wrong sometimes.

fingerbang
07-15-2012, 04:25 PM
I don't know what point you are trying to make other than that some people online are wrong sometimes.

Those aren't just "some people". They're the people that get quoted religiously around here. And they're wrong a lot.

sexicano31
07-15-2012, 04:26 PM
You sound mad

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 04:27 PM
Those aren't just "some people". They're the people that get quoted religiously around here. And they're wrong a lot.

Define 'a lot'

fingerbang
07-15-2012, 04:31 PM
Define 'a lot'

Define sometimes.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 05:25 PM
Define sometimes.

You said they are wrong a lot.

I would say they are wrong maybe 10-20% of the time, which should be every online sport bloggers goal. And they are certainly right more than the general public and most sports media outlets.

I would define sometimes as 'occasionally'

I would say they are occasionally wrong, 10-20% of the time, maybe even as much as 25% of the time.

A lot would mean to me more than 66% of the time. And they are certainly not wrong more than that.

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 06:00 PM
lol Jeffy loves to kill Jeter's D, just like Ichiro's lack of power as a corner outfielder. It's his favorite two topics.

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 06:02 PM
I think for the most part, sabermatricians can tell you what happened with pinpoint accuracy, and be dead wrong on what will happen, because forecasting the future requires the consideration of too many human elements that make them squirmy.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 06:04 PM
lol Jeffy loves to kill Jeter's D, just like Ichiro's lack of power as a corner outfielder. It's his favorite two topics.

They are just two of the more consistently discussed topics on PSD.

A few years ago you would have heard a lot more topics about the uselessness of RBI's and Wins for pitchers.

But people seem to know better now. Which is so much better :)

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 06:06 PM
They are just two of the more consistently discussed topics on PSD.

A few years ago you would have heard a lot more topics about the uselessness of RBI's and Wins for pitchers.

But people seem to know better now. Which is so much better :)

I think you are physically incapable of typing a post about Derek Jeter without referring at least once to his advanced fielding stats (if you want to call them "stats," that is).

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 06:06 PM
I think for the most part, sabermatricians can tell you what happened with pinpoint accuracy, and be dead wrong on what will happen, because forecasting the future requires the consideration of too many human elements that make them squirmy.

I can agree with all of that except that it makes them uncomfortable.

Chances are, if you understand sabr-metrics, chances are you understand that there is more to the game than just advanced stats. It is consistently discussed in online sabr-blogs.

The human element is def a huge part of the game, it's just too difficult to quantify, and the advanced stats part of the game is easier to quantify. So that is what is discussed usually.

Forecasting the future is always going to be insanely difficult. No matter how you are choosing to try to measure it. No one can predict the future.

nyyfan4life
07-15-2012, 06:08 PM
Jeter is a statue in the field, anyone who watches Yankee games knows this. He has 0 range. Advance metrics just put a number on what our eyes have been seeing.

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 06:15 PM
I can agree with all of that except that it makes them uncomfortable.

Chances are, if you understand sabr-metrics, chances are you understand that there is more to the game than just advanced stats. It is consistently discussed in online sabr-blogs.

The human element is def a huge part of the game, it's just too difficult to quantify, and the advanced stats part of the game is easier to quantify. So that is what is discussed usually.

Forecasting the future is always going to be insanely difficult. No matter how you are choosing to try to measure it. No one can predict the future.

Fair 'nough.

Mr Haha
07-15-2012, 06:17 PM
Jeter is a statue in the field, anyone who watches Yankee games knows this. He has 0 range. Advance metrics just put a number on what our eyes have been seeing.

My problem with it--while I agree with you--is that it puts a fixed value on range that you have to agree with 100% if you are going to use the stats, just as the various versions of WAR put a fixed value on defense and base-running, making it fundamentally subjective in nature.

Cheezombie
07-15-2012, 07:45 PM
lol why are people voting for the A's?

Cheezombie
07-15-2012, 07:46 PM
Ah nevermind they're all from the A's forum

TrueYankee
07-15-2012, 08:00 PM
I thought Red Sox were...

Pshhh who the **** am I kidding. Sike.

I seriously thought Yankees from the get go. Phillies if they were healthy, Rangers if they haven't lost 2 world series in a row, Rays if they had better offense, Cardinals if Carpenter/Wainwright were both in the rotation, etc...

Yankees are a complete team at bullpen, bench, rotation, and lineup (at least until Gardner comes back)

7chuck7
07-15-2012, 08:11 PM
they live by the long ball and die by the long ball. i dont know how that style of play will fare for them in the playoffs.

yes, they are the best team, right now, by a from a pure W-L standpoint, but I wouldnt say they're the best team. They're a product, largely, of their stadium. Cano and Jeter seem to be the only guys that take the ball oppo, so I respect the **** outta them.

In 2009 they hit 244 home runs and won the W.S.
That does not mean that hitting lots of home runs guarantees you anything but it does show that it does not have to hurt you in the end.
We shall see. Hopefully they win no matter how they get it done.

KingPosey
07-16-2012, 02:05 AM
I don't know what point you are trying to make other than that some people online are wrong sometimes.

I think he is attacking the fact that you use online advanced stats as gospel when you debate, especially defensive metrics that are more than flawed. Im actually shocked that you would make such a cavalier attitude on the matter when everything you stand behind points to the contrary Jeffy lol.

BUT, I do agree with your statement lol.

Jeffy25
07-16-2012, 02:07 AM
i think he is attacking the fact that you use online advanced stats as gospel when you debate, especially defensive metrics that are more than flawed. Im actually shocked that you would make such a cavalier attitude on the matter when everything you stand behind points to the contrary jeffy lol.

But, i do agree with your statement lol.

It started off with him saying UZR ruins WAR, but I didn't even use UZR based WAR.

And then it got off topic a bit about Fangraphs writers, and how often they are incorrect.

I don't treat it as gospel, but it's pretty easy to use math instead of assumptions or judgments to discuss things like ...who was the better player. Or why Jeter is likely in decline when other things have happened exactly like that throughout baseball history.

Sabr-metrics is really just the advanced discussions and learning of baseball information. Which is something advanced statistics provides assistance with. It would be silly to ignore the information when you have it at your fingertips and know how to use it.

As for the writers at Fangraphs, and the people that said Jeter was in decline. Well they aren't always right. Nobody is going to be always right. Especially when discussing the future and predicting it. As for Jeter. Well, he pretty clearly should have been moved off short awhile ago. But the Yankees have their reasons for keeping him there during his decline. Something he is clearly in the process of. How well he holds off that decline will determine where he ends up with the all-time greats.

I actually like Jeter quite a bit. A great player, a little over rated by too many people that it distracts from how good he really was/is. Sure his defense sucks, but he is also one of the best hitting shortstops ever. He is clearly in his decline, and shouldn't play short any longer. But the Yankees want to keep him there, so that's their prerogative. He would be more useful at second though, or even if he DH'd some. But with Cano and the army of slow running power hitters on the Yankees, that would be difficult to do.

Anyway, nobody can treat advanced stats like they are gospel. They are useful, and it's stupid to not use them. But you also can't really use them to determine the future all that well. At least not yet. But some information is better than no information, as always.

Mr Haha
07-16-2012, 11:14 AM
It started off with him saying UZR ruins WAR, but I didn't even use UZR based WAR.

And then it got off topic a bit about Fangraphs writers, and how often they are incorrect.

I don't treat it as gospel, but it's pretty easy to use math instead of assumptions or judgments to discuss things like ...who was the better player. Or why Jeter is likely in decline when other things have happened exactly like that throughout baseball history.

Sabr-metrics is really just the advanced discussions and learning of baseball information. Which is something advanced statistics provides assistance with. It would be silly to ignore the information when you have it at your fingertips and know how to use it.

As for the writers at Fangraphs, and the people that said Jeter was in decline. Well they aren't always right. Nobody is going to be always right. Especially when discussing the future and predicting it. As for Jeter. Well, he pretty clearly should have been moved off short awhile ago. But the Yankees have their reasons for keeping him there during his decline. Something he is clearly in the process of. How well he holds off that decline will determine where he ends up with the all-time greats.

I actually like Jeter quite a bit. A great player, a little over rated by too many people that it distracts from how good he really was/is. Sure his defense sucks, but he is also one of the best hitting shortstops ever. He is clearly in his decline, and shouldn't play short any longer. But the Yankees want to keep him there, so that's their prerogative. He would be more useful at second though, or even if he DH'd some. But with Cano and the army of slow running power hitters on the Yankees, that would be difficult to do.

Anyway, nobody can treat advanced stats like they are gospel. They are useful, and it's stupid to not use them. But you also can't really use them to determine the future all that well. At least not yet. But some information is better than no information, as always.

Great post, Jeffy. Sharp, complete, and diplomatic.

KingPosey
07-16-2012, 11:33 AM
Jeffy you know waaaaay too much lol

Joker55
07-16-2012, 02:57 PM
Yankees.

And Jeter is terrible in the field, but we're winning so who cares?

nyyfan555
07-17-2012, 01:13 PM
Anyone who says the yankees hit too many home runs and its a product of their home haven't seen their road record. its the best in the majors. they have decent starting pitching and one of the best bullpens. and relying on home runs is not such a bad thing. it can turn a game around very quickly. (see last nights game or the 2009 postseason). plus we all know that the postseason is somewhat of a crapshoot.

SportsAndrew25
07-17-2012, 01:32 PM
I knew the Yankees were gonna be good entering the season and for them to be good considering they have no Mariano and have lost Pettitte and CC is incredible. It once again proves how well built that team is.

Pinstripe pride
07-17-2012, 01:36 PM
Who would have guessed that Mr Haha would have created a thread to boast about his favorite players/teams???

the funniest part is now a teams record makes them the best, where as he adamantly says the opposite when it comes to football

LongIslandIcedZ
07-17-2012, 01:47 PM
Who was the stat head who said the Rays could win 100 games at the beginning of the year? They got a better chance of coming in 4th place lol.

FortDetroit
07-17-2012, 02:10 PM
Who was the stat head who said the Rays could win 100 games at the beginning of the year? They got a better chance of coming in 4th place lol.

I also love the people who said the Rays wouldn't be any better off if they had more money to spend. Who needs money when you can bring back Carlos Pena and sign that stud Luke Scott? WEEEEEEE.

FortDetroit
07-17-2012, 02:11 PM
the funniest part is now a teams record makes them the best, where as he adamantly says the opposite when it comes to football

Surprising.

dodgersuck
07-17-2012, 02:15 PM
I said Nationals because the Yankees piss me off

Pinstripe pride
07-17-2012, 02:37 PM
I said Nationals because the Yankees piss me off

yanks did sweep the nats in DC

IronMan21
07-17-2012, 02:40 PM
i would have to say Yankees

Jeffy25
07-17-2012, 04:53 PM
Who was the stat head who said the Rays could win 100 games at the beginning of the year? They got a better chance of coming in 4th place lol.

Proud to say it was me.

Of course, when everyone on the team gets hurt, there isn't much you can do about that.

I also said that 90 wins was what was likely, and that 100 wins was simply probable.

All they have to do to win 90 games is carry a .600 winning percentage the rest of the way, which they are fully capable of doing.

Texas Holders
07-17-2012, 09:35 PM
no that just means you were the hottest team at the right time

baseball is a war of attrition, injuries are often a deciding factor

if chris carpenter had been injured late last season instead of coming back from the injury to be fresh for the post season do you honestly believe they would have won?

baseball is a marathon that earns you the right to participate in a sprint called the playoffs

and the sprint comes at the end when youve worn yourself ragged trying to get there

What? Carpenter wasn't coming back from an injury and he certainly wasn't fresh in the playoffs. He pitched 237 innings in the regular season last year (4th most in baseball). 235 in 2010. He definitely wasn't fresh.

Jeffy25
07-17-2012, 11:27 PM
What? Carpenter wasn't coming back from an injury and he certainly wasn't fresh in the playoffs. He pitched 237 innings in the regular season last year (4th most in baseball). 235 in 2010. He definitely wasn't fresh.

And if you include the playoffs, he pitched more innings than anyone else in the game last year.