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View Full Version : Is Dempster not getting the recognition he deserves?



chi-townlove1
07-14-2012, 01:40 AM
So this is not a thread saying that Ryan Dempster is a better pitcher than Clayton Kershaw. But I wanted to ask everyone a question. How Is Dempster not more respected when he is having the best individual year of a pitcher in the NL? How does Kershaw get praised day after day and considered for MVP, cy young, and best pitcher in baseball but Ryan Dempster doesn't even make the all star team. Do you people not recognize what Dempster is doing as an individual This season? The Cubs suck and do not help Ryan at all but the man continues to pitch his *** off.

I'm a big advocate of wins and losses not portraying a pitchers talent so I will not make a claim for that but if you didn't know Kershaw just won his 7th game tonight. He is not having as good as a year as people are putting in their heads. Neither team is necessarily helping their pitcher but I am just curious as to why Ryan Dempster is not credited more from the public.

Kershaw - 6 and 5 with a 2.91era 1.08whip 35 walks 125 strikeouts
Dempster - 4 and 3 with a 1.99era 1.01whip 22 walks 70 strikeouts

A whole 1 era less.. Incredible for a player not put on an all star team. While his strikeout numbers aren't as dominating everything else is more impressive than Kershaw. Players like RA dickey, Matt Cain and Gio Gonzalez are all having great year with phenomenal records, but that is a impact of their teams as well. I guess I am just sayin that around the MLB world I wish players like Ryan Dempster got more appreciation and recognition for the year he is having. Does anyone agree with me? Also any chance of a cy young for Ryan Dempster?

SenorGato
07-14-2012, 01:43 AM
Best stretch of Dempster's since '08, and I think it's going to net the Cubs a nice prospect from someone. He's a pretty underrated pitcher. I find myself appreciating him more now.

DodgerB24
07-14-2012, 01:44 AM
Firstly, I don't think anyone is saying that Kershaw is in the conversation about getting the MVP.

Secondly, Kershaw has been pretty under the radar in terms of attention. Strasburg, Dicky and Cain have all been getting way more attention than Kershaw has this year so if you're going to make this aurgument for Dempster, wouldn't you be using Dicky or Cain?

giantspwn
07-14-2012, 01:59 AM
Unfortunately, it's very unlikely Dempster takes Cy-Young. Cain, Bumgarner, Kershaw, Gonzales, Cueto, Grenike, Lee, Hamels, Mcdonald, Dickey and Strasburg are all having better years so far (probably missing some).

The NL is packed with pitching this year even with Lincecum and Halladay out of the picture. As for respect, Dempster has always been pretty underrated although he's seen a decline since 08 and he's almost 33. Possibly a trade to the east coast and he may get noticed a bit more.

SenorGato
07-14-2012, 03:59 AM
Dempster's actually been pretty steady since '08, it's just that '08 was his best season.

85BearsDefense
07-14-2012, 04:20 AM
Wow. What a surprise that a Cubs fan started this thread. Shut this **** down.

why? its a good argument... better than half the threads on this site

The 6-4-3
07-14-2012, 04:26 AM
Wow. What a surprise that a Cubs fan started this thread. Shut this **** down.

why? its a good argument... better than half the threads on this site

Yeah it is a good argument...

If Dempster stayed healthy all year then he would be talked about more I think.

If he gets traded to LA his media exposure and exposure would probably bring him in

Buckwheat
07-14-2012, 04:53 AM
He's an older player on a ****** team and has missed significant time due to injury. What's so hard to understand?

Significant? He qualifies to be the league leader in ERA, so you're wrong. And what does his age and team have to do with this? I don't think this thread is a "would you rather have in the long run?" type of thread.

There is apparently a lot that is hard to understand.

85BearsDefense
07-14-2012, 05:01 AM
He's an older player on a ****** team and has missed significant time due to injury. What's so hard to understand?

Significant time they say, hes only started 4 less games than Kershaw... hes the league leader in ERA, has a better WHIP as well. I guess you dont understand that the most important stats on a pitcher are ERA and WHIP, if they are both low your an elite pitcher.

85BearsDefense
07-14-2012, 05:02 AM
I guess someone who has only allowed 19 runs the whole season on the WORST team in baseball shouldnt deserve some notice especially when your defense is the Cubs.

gaughan333
07-14-2012, 09:53 AM
Inb4 saberfags

Yup, its all about wins, losses, and batting average

Bryrob58
07-14-2012, 10:44 AM
.

conway429
07-14-2012, 11:30 AM
Unfortunately, it's very unlikely Dempster takes Cy-Young. Cain, Bumgarner, Kershaw, Gonzales, Cueto, Grenike, Lee, Hamels, Mcdonald, Dickey and Strasburg are all having better years so far (probably missing some).


:speechless:
1-6 with an ERA of 4.00?

but yeah, I think Dempster doesn't get respect because:
a) he's been fairly mediocre for a long time
b) lack of strikeouts/sexiness

1903
07-14-2012, 12:03 PM
why? its a good argument... better than half the threads on this site

It's a horrible argument. No one is talking about Kershaw as a top Cy Young or MVP candidate so far this season. It's all been about Dickey, Cain, Strasburg, and Gio. Also the stats the OP used to make his argument are horrible.

chi-townlove1
07-14-2012, 12:08 PM
I'm comparing him to Kershaw because he is over loved on this forum and there were people saying they wouldnt trade him for trout. :speechless: Dempster had been cy young material since opening day and I just don't understand how people can say anyone else is having a better season than this guy. Even if you compare him to dickey Strasbourg Cain etc. he has posted better numbers time and time again. He is more than deserving of cy young despite his low win total. Many put to much emphasis on worthless stats just like nba titles for a player.

1903
07-14-2012, 12:13 PM
I'm comparing him to Kershaw because he is over loved on this forum and there were people saying they wouldnt trade him for trout. :speechless: Dempster had been cy young material since opening day and I just don't understand how people can say anyone else is having a better season than this guy. Even if you compare him to dickey Strasbourg Cain etc. he has posted better numbers time and time again. He is more than deserving of cy young despite his low win total. Many put to much emphasis on worthless stats just like nba titles for a player.

Please explain how he has posted the better numbers in the NL. Do you just look at ERA?

Mell413
07-14-2012, 01:11 PM
Dempster has been pretty good this year. He probably should get more recognition. I know people will look at the BABIP and say he's been lucky, while part of that might be true I think you also have to factor in that the Cubs shift a lot. Dempster has done a great job of pitching to the scouting reports. Part of it might be luck, but part of it might be his own doing as well

xxplayerxx23
07-14-2012, 01:19 PM
**** DEMPSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol Im still bitter I had him on fantasy last year and let him go this year for 11 when I bid 10 could of had him at 12. Bet I get him next year and he sucks lol

DodgerBlue8188
07-14-2012, 01:23 PM
If fans can vote there favorite players in to start the All Star game. Kershaw deserves to make it for winning the Cy Young. Kershaw was the best pitcher in the 2nd half last season. I think that should count for something.

Fly
07-14-2012, 01:43 PM
Dempster, the guy with the 3.15 FIP, 3.70 xFIP and 7.33 K/9 has been better than Kershaw this year? :laugh2:

1903
07-14-2012, 02:29 PM
Dempster, the guy with the 3.15 FIP, 3.70 xFIP and 7.33 K/9 has been better than Kershaw this year? :laugh2:

ERA dude!

Mell413
07-14-2012, 02:35 PM
His FIP is almost identical to Kershaw's. Plus you just can't throw out the actual results. Plus I think some of you guys overlooked my last post. Of course Dempster is a Cub so he won't get respect on this board. Mets and Cubs fans have it rough on here

1908_Cubs
07-14-2012, 02:37 PM
:speechless:
1-6 with an ERA of 4.00?

but yeah, I think Dempster doesn't get respect because:
a) he's been fairly mediocre for a long time
b) lack of strikeouts/sexiness

Over last 5 seasons, been worth the 16th most wins of any SP in the league.

He's unsexy. He's been anything but mediocre.

1908_Cubs
07-14-2012, 02:39 PM
Dempster, the guy with the 3.15 FIP, 3.70 xFIP and 7.33 K/9 has been better than Kershaw this year? :laugh2:

Well...if you want to get technical.....

Kershaw has a 3.10 FIP and a 3.32 xFIP. It's not like Dempster's been that much worst than Kershaw's FIP or xFIP, either.

Yeah, Clayton's had a better season, especially with 40 IP on him. But I wouldn't really use DIP's as a way to laugh off Dempster, either.

VRP723
07-14-2012, 02:41 PM
It appears we may soon have them both. Muhuhaha.

VRP723
07-14-2012, 02:42 PM
His FIP is almost identical to Kershaw's. Plus you just can't throw out the actual results. Plus I think some of you guys overlooked my last post. Of course Dempster is a Cub so he won't get respect on this board. Mets and Cubs fans have it rough on here

In the boards' defense you guys also have a major inferiority complex and have to shove every decent player you have down our throats.

Mell413
07-14-2012, 02:46 PM
In the boards' defense you guys also have a major inferiority complex and have to shove every decent player you have down our throats.

Not saying what you said is or isn't true, but I don't post in the MLB forum much longer. That being said I can't recall anyone we've showed down anyone's throats. We had a thread for Rizzo when he came up, but he was a legit prospect so I thought it had a purpose in this thread. I think we had a thread asking if Castro was a top SS, which I think had a purpose. It's not like we dedicated a thread to Darwin Barney or something. I will admit though we can at times overrate marginal players, but that's bound to happen when you have a fanbase as big as the Cubs

1908_Cubs
07-14-2012, 02:46 PM
In the boards' defense you guys also have a major inferiority complex and have to shove every decent player you have down our throats.

No more than any other, honestly. Yankees, Cubs, Dodgers, Mets and Red Sox fans seem to be the great majority here on the boards. You also have some really active members of other communities, like Jeffy and the Cardinals or Mario and the Tigers.

It "feels" like players are being shoved down your throats. But it's because there's a heavy discussion from those fans of those teams as compared to others. What happens is then we lose control of people like OP here, and he comes in to the main forum and makes a silly post.

1908_Cubs
07-14-2012, 02:47 PM
Not saying what you said is or isn't true, but I don't post in the MLB forum much longer. That being said I can't recall anyone we've showed down anyone's throats. We had a thread for Rizzo when he came up, but he was a legit prospect so I thought it had a purpose in this thread. I think we had a thread asking if Castro was a top SS, which I think had a purpose. It's not like we dedicated a thread to Darwin Barney or something. I will admit though we can at times overrate marginal players, but that's bound to happen when you have a fanbase as big as the Cubs

Or....any fan base. At all.

VRP723
07-14-2012, 02:52 PM
No more than any other, honestly. Yankees, Cubs, Dodgers, Mets and Red Sox fans seem to be the great majority here on the boards. You also have some really active members of other communities, like Jeffy and the Cardinals or Mario and the Tigers.

It "feels" like players are being shoved down your throats. But it's because there's a heavy discussion from those fans of those teams as compared to others. What happens is then we lose control of people like OP here, and he comes in to the main forum and makes a silly post.

I think you guys are more sensitive about your players than say Yankees, Red Sox or Giants fans. Not that every fan base doesn't have their own annoying little quirks lol, but that seems to be the Cubs and Mets fans M.O.

1908_Cubs
07-14-2012, 02:58 PM
I think you guys are more sensitive about your players than say Yankees, Red Sox or Giants fans. Not that every fan base doesn't have their own annoying little quirks lol, but that seems to be the Cubs and Mets fans M.O.

Well, I think part of it is when you come on and read silly things like "Dempster has been mediocre for some time". Dude's been a workhorse and a solid number 2, worst case scenario, for five years running. Hell, there's a Dodgers fan prancing around in the Cubs forum (Derek_Brink....for the love of god, take him back) telling us he's a number 3. And that Aaron Harang is god's gift on Earth. So it's easy to get a little defensive here.

Part of it is just because I think there's a negative stigma on the Cubs/Mets to begin with, which makes people underrate some of our players, which in turn, makes us more defensive about them. Chicken or the egg kind of situation. Are we really more defensive or has our stigma, and others underrating us, made us defensive?

northsider
07-14-2012, 03:21 PM
I think you guys are more sensitive about your players than say Yankees, Red Sox or Giants fans. Not that every fan base doesn't have their own annoying little quirks lol, but that seems to be the Cubs and Mets fans M.O.

Yeah it's not like we didn't have a million Kershaw/Kemp threads.

Trust me Dodgers fans do this as well. They aren't the exception to the rule.

In fact every fan base does this except of the ones that aren't well represented on PSD. It also doesn't help that we are one of the most active forums on PSD.

northsider
07-14-2012, 03:21 PM
Well, I think part of it is when you come on and read silly things like "Dempster has been mediocre for some time". Dude's been a workhorse and a solid number 2, worst case scenario, for five years running. Hell, there's a Dodgers fan prancing around in the Cubs forum (Derek_Brink....for the love of god, take him back) telling us he's a number 3. And that Aaron Harang is god's gift on Earth. So it's easy to get a little defensive here.

Part of it is just because I think there's a negative stigma on the Cubs/Mets to begin with, which makes people underrate some of our players, which in turn, makes us more defensive about them. Chicken or the egg kind of situation. Are we really more defensive or has our stigma, and others underrating us, made us defensive?

Let alone Dempster is no better then Chris Capuano.

Like I said it's a two way street that even the precious Dodgers nation isn't an exception too.

C-ross12
07-14-2012, 04:35 PM
I think you guys are more sensitive about your players than say Yankees, Red Sox or Giants fans. Not that every fan base doesn't have their own annoying little quirks lol, but that seems to be the Cubs and Mets fans M.O.

No we're not. Every fanbase is the same. Its just seems that way because we have one of the most active fanbases. How the hell do you label an entire fanbase?

If the Diamondbacks had our size fanbase, you'd see Upton threads more often and "Miley is underrated" threads every week.

Derek Brink
07-14-2012, 05:51 PM
If you have a hard timeunderstanding why a guy who has been one of the best 5 starters in baseball for four years running gets more respect than a guy with a 4.32 career era than you might be a little special.

Kershaw has been an ace nearly his entire career. Dempster has been one for 14 starts and even this year Kershaw has a whip very similar to Dempster. Has more k's per 9, k's per bb and on.

DodgerB24
07-14-2012, 05:54 PM
I guess when your team isn't winning you have to squeeze some meaning out of the individuals on the team.

Just sayin'.

Ohhh it's getting serious. :catfight:

northsider
07-14-2012, 05:59 PM
I guess when your team isn't winning you have to squeeze some meaning out of the individuals on the team.

Just sayin'.

Totally. Giants fans never overrate their own.

Just sayin'

Mell413
07-14-2012, 06:12 PM
ERA down to 1.86 after today. I'm not even saying Dempster is better than Kershaw, but I think it's funny the actual results get thrown out. I think this might be a case of people being lazy in regards to BABIP. Plus His FIP is practically the same as Kershaw's and yet gets little recognition

Derek Brink
07-14-2012, 06:14 PM
Well, I think part of it is when you come on and read silly things like "Dempster has been mediocre for some time". Dude's been a workhorse and a solid number 2, worst case scenario, for five years running. Hell, there's a Dodgers fan prancing around in the Cubs forum (Derek_Brink....for the love of god, take him back) telling us he's a number 3. And that Aaron Harang is god's gift on Earth. So it's easy to get a little defensive here.

Part of it is just because I think there's a negative stigma on the Cubs/Mets to begin with, which makes people underrate some of our players, which in turn, makes us more defensive about them. Chicken or the egg kind of situation. Are we really more defensive or has our stigma, and others underrating us, made us defensive?

You should probably say things I actually said. I've never liked Harang so I doubt I ever said he was god's gift and Dempster usually is a #3 starter. How hard is this to understand? Usually Dempster is a #3 starter. I don't know how hard that is to understand. That's like me saying Capuano is a #2 starter because this year he is pitching like one.

This year he's obviously pitching better and is damn close to an ace but comparing him to Kershaw is ridiculous. Kershaw has done what Dempster is doing this year(besides the scoreless stretch) 4 years running and is still only 24 years old.

You also can't help but think Dempster will decline at some point. He's got a .241 BABIP right now and is leaving 84% of his runners on base. Both numbers are far better than career norms.

Btw I wouldn't blast me for saying he's a 3 when he normally is. You had multiple posters on you board calling he and Garza aces. Dempster and Garza are a hell of a lot closer to #3s then they are aces.

Derek Brink
07-14-2012, 06:25 PM
Dempsters last 4 years before this year
2008 2.96 ERA 3.41 FIP 3.69 XFIP 8.14 k/9 3.31 b/9
2009 3.65 ERA 3.87 FIP 3.76 XFIP 7.74 k/9 2.93 b/9
2010 3.85 ERA 3.99 FIP 3.74 XFIP 8.69 k/9 3.59 b/9
2011 4.80 ERA 3.91 FIP 3.70 XFIP 8.5 k/9 3.64 b/9

2011 he was about a top 75-100 pitcher, 2010 he was about the same, 2009 about the same. 2008 Dempster was practically an ace.

This has been Dempsters issue. More often than not he's been a mid rotation starter but he's had years like 2008 and this year so far where he's been a borderline ace.

Personally I take the career norm which is him pitching like a solid 3 rather than the 2 or 3 years out of 14 where he's pitched like a #1/#2(one of those years was in the pen when he was a closer).

northsider
07-14-2012, 06:35 PM
Truth hurts sometimes.

Just sayin'.

I know. At least you're willing to admit what I said was also the truth. That's called progress.

gocubs2118
07-14-2012, 06:39 PM
But can Kershaw do this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eEzHdVXxU&feature=related

cubsforlife
07-14-2012, 06:47 PM
Dempster is not an ace. Dempster is not a number 3. He is a number 2. This year he is performing like an ace and is better than Kershaw. Overall, i think everyone would rather have kershaw on their team. You can use those other stats, but results rely on the era. period. The era is how many runs cross. The other stats are used to predict sustained results, not used to show results.

C-ross12
07-14-2012, 08:59 PM
You should probably say things I actually said. I've never liked Harang so I doubt I ever said he was god's gift and Dempster usually is a #3 starter. How hard is this to understand? Usually Dempster is a #3 starter. I don't know how hard that is to understand. That's like me saying Capuano is a #2 starter because this year he is pitching like one.

This year he's obviously pitching better and is damn close to an ace but comparing him to Kershaw is ridiculous. Kershaw has done what Dempster is doing this year(besides the scoreless stretch) 4 years running and is still only 24 years old.

You also can't help but think Dempster will decline at some point. He's got a .241 BABIP right now and is leaving 84% of his runners on base. Both numbers are far better than career norms.

Btw I wouldn't blast me for saying he's a 3 when he normally is. You had multiple posters on you board calling he and Garza aces. Dempster and Garza are a hell of a lot closer to #3s then they are aces.

Hes "usually" a 3. LOL. Does that change for you from start to start? Or is that just something that you pulled out of your.. hat?

Derek Brink
07-15-2012, 01:23 AM
Hes "usually" a 3. LOL. Does that change for you from start to start? Or is that just something that you pulled out of your.. hat?

yes I made up all the stats that he puts up. It was me who gave him a career era of 4.32, a 1.42 whip, and an opp batting average of .258.

Are you drinking or do most of your posts not make any sense?

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 01:31 AM
Dempster just barely qualified for the ERA lead going in to the break (and hadn't for a bit of time while he was on the DL). He's started six less games than Kershaw (13 compared to 19); that is a significant disadvantage any way you slice it.

His age and team are significant in this conversation because it partially explains why he isn't getting more recognition. I'm not saying that's how it should be but that's how it is. Excellent season so far, but Dempster just isn't much of a story.

On the other hand, you have Kershaw who is the reigning Cy Young winner, playing in a big market for a team that is in first place, and still hasn't hit his prime most likely.

Understand now?

This.
On top of the giant difference from their periphs that last several years.

Dempster is due for a regression, and for a lot of reasons.

But I still see him going to LA, and I wish he had made the all-star team, even though he didn't deserve it.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 01:36 AM
Dempsters last 4 years before this year
2008 2.96 ERA 3.41 FIP 3.69 XFIP 8.14 k/9 3.31 b/9
2009 3.65 ERA 3.87 FIP 3.76 XFIP 7.74 k/9 2.93 b/9
2010 3.85 ERA 3.99 FIP 3.74 XFIP 8.69 k/9 3.59 b/9
2011 4.80 ERA 3.91 FIP 3.70 XFIP 8.5 k/9 3.64 b/9

2011 he was about a top 75-100 pitcher, 2010 he was about the same, 2009 about the same. 2008 Dempster was practically an ace.

This has been Dempsters issue. More often than not he's been a mid rotation starter but he's had years like 2008 and this year so far where he's been a borderline ace.

Personally I take the career norm which is him pitching like a solid 3 rather than the 2 or 3 years out of 14 where he's pitched like a #1/#2(one of those years was in the pen when he was a closer).
Yup, pencil him in as your 3, and hope for performances like a 1 or 2.

He is also a fairly healthy guy. Good pitcher to have. Ideally he is your 4 on a playoff team.

I wouldn't count on ace like, or kershaw like numbersoving forward. He should be as good as, or maybe a little better than his career rates until he shows he can maintain these new numbers.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 01:37 AM
ERA down to 1.86 after today. I'm not even saying Dempster is better than Kershaw, but I think it's funny the actual results get thrown out. I think this might be a case of people being lazy in regards to BABIP. Plus His FIP is practically the same as Kershaw's and yet gets little recognition

And what is their difference in innings pitched?

Even though this is a limited sample size (half a season), it's hard to put dempster in the same conversation with kershaw.

If you had both in your rotation. It would be easy to pick which one you would want for a one game playoff. Or it should be an easy choice.

Derek Brink
07-15-2012, 02:47 AM
And what is their difference in innings pitched?

Even though this is a limited sample size (half a season), it's hard to put dempster in the same conversation with kershaw.

If you had both in your rotation. It would be easy to pick which one you would want for a one game playoff. Or it should be an easy choice.

yep, the thing is if Dempster pitched like this every year then he'd get almost as much as love as Kershaw.

Almost because Kershaw is 24 and is going on his 4th ace level season in a row. He's still 2-3 years from hitting his prime and already one of the few aces in the bigs(there are probably less than 10 legit aces).

At age 24 comparison
W-L Whip ERA k's/9 bb's/9
Ryan Dempster 37-35 1.54 4.62 7.6 4.8
Clayton Kershaw 54-33 1.16 2.87 9.3 3.3

Kershaw also has about half a season left and usually gets stronger later in the year. While most pitchers are just trying to get acclimated to the bigs Kershaw has had 3 elite level seasons and is well on is way to a fourth. This is why there is no comparison when it comes Kershaw vs Dempster.

cubsforlife
07-15-2012, 03:13 AM
yes I made up all the stats that he puts up. It was me who gave him a career era of 4.32, a 1.42 whip, and an opp batting average of .258.

Are you drinking or do most of your posts not make any sense?

You cant look at career era with dempster though because he hasnt always been a starter due to an injury that he suffered. That injury was severe enough to turn him to closer and obviously effected him for many years. Since he has been a starter, he has been a number 2 with one and a half years of an ace, and one year as a number three.

Derek Brink
07-15-2012, 03:31 AM
You cant look at career era with dempster though because he hasnt always been a starter due to an injury that he suffered. That injury was severe enough to turn him to closer and obviously effected him for many years. Since he has been a starter, he has been a number 2 with one and a half years of an ace, and one year as a number three.

dude this entire thread is about why is Kershaw thought more highly of then Dempster. You can't just erase the poor seasons Dempster has had.

The main reason kershaw is thought of more highly is because he's been nothing but excellent since he hit the bigs. You can't just erase 3/4 of Dempsters career so that he's more comparable to kershaw.

Btw Dempster had been a starter for 8 years before the Cubs ever made him a starter. Those first 8 years he spent 6 of them being a poor 5th starter and 2 being an ok 4th starter. Also last year Dempster had an era near 5, an a 1.45 whip. He was not a #3 starter.

I don't want this to come off as me trashing Dempster. There's just a reason that he is not brought up when talking about the best pitchers in baseball. In 5 seasons kershaw has already had more elite level seasons than Dempster has had in 15. Dempster is a very solid pitcher but he's not on Clayton kershaws level.

KingPosey
07-15-2012, 07:37 AM
Demps does deserve so recognition. I didnt realize just HOW stingy he has been till a couple weeks ago.

rockbottom2010
07-15-2012, 08:05 AM
Unfortunately, it's very unlikely Dempster takes Cy-Young. Cain, Bumgarner, Kershaw, Gonzales, Cueto, Grenike, Lee, Hamels, Mcdonald, Dickey and Strasburg are all having better years so far (probably missing some).

The NL is packed with pitching this year even with Lincecum and Halladay out of the picture. As for respect, Dempster has always been pretty underrated although he's seen a decline since 08 and he's almost 33. Possibly a trade to the east coast and he may get noticed a bit more.

double check on lee

u want solid cy young contenders......strasburg,dickey,cain, and gio gonzalez.....and possibly lynn from the cards

jej
07-15-2012, 01:11 PM
Yeah it is a good argument...

If Dempster stayed healthy all year then he would be talked about more I think.

If he gets traded to LA his media exposure and exposure would probably bring him in

That's the difference. He missed what, 5-10 starts? Who knows what would have happened.
Plus, he plays for the cubs, Kershaw for the playoff bound Dodgers.

dodgerdave
07-15-2012, 05:59 PM
I don't think it's that big of a deal.

I just think that focusing on just the first half of any season is not big enough of a sample size when it comes to determining who should and shouldn't be at an All-Star game. In particular, the second half of the previous season should also be considered.

WadeKobe
07-15-2012, 06:19 PM
It's a horrible argument. No one is talking about Kershaw as a top Cy Young or MVP candidate so far this season. It's all been about Dickey, Cain, Strasburg, and Gio. Also the stats the OP used to make his argument are horrible.

What makes the OP even more laughable is the fact that he's riled up about Dempster, when it is Grienke who is arguably the best pitcher in the NL this year, not Dempster, and it is Grienke who has been snubbed everywhere in the conversation, despite his other-worldly DIPS,

chi-townlove1
07-15-2012, 06:43 PM
You guys are ridiculous ^ did I say Greinke wasn't deserving? I never am a homer because I know the cubs suck, despite playing very well as of late. But demp was well deserving of the all star spot and possibly starter. And he should be in cy young contention because it doesn't matter what team you play for its how you perform as an individual.

WadeKobe
07-15-2012, 07:36 PM
You guys are ridiculous ^ did I say Greinke wasn't deserving? I never am a homer because I know the cubs suck, despite playing very well as of late. But demp was well deserving of the all star spot and possibly starter. And he should be in cy young contention because it doesn't matter what team you play for its how you perform as an individual.

Ridiculous? My point is that Dempster is not the one to get riled up about. Grienke is. But you didn't, you got riled up about Dempster --- the wrong guy.

Why? That seems self-evident. One is on your team, the other on one of your rivals.

chi-townlove1
07-15-2012, 08:38 PM
You guys are ridiculous ^ did I say Greinke wasn't deserving? I never am a homer because I know the cubs suck, despite playing very well as of late. But demp was well deserving of the all star spot and possibly starter. And he should be in cy young contention because it doesn't matter what team you play for its how you perform as an individual.

Ridiculous? My point is that Dempster is not the one to get riled up about. Grienke is. But you didn't, you got riled up about Dempster --- the wrong guy.

Why? That seems self-evident. One is on your team, the other on one of your rivals.


You really goin to come here and say Greinke is something to get riled up about. Honestly? You can sit there and say Greinke has been better than dempster and even if you argue it, is he far and away that much better than Ryan?? Come on sox fan be realistic and stop hating on a cross town player. Bit of respect?

WadeKobe
07-15-2012, 09:36 PM
You really goin to come here and say Greinke is something to get riled up about. Honestly? You can sit there and say Greinke has been better than dempster and even if you argue it, is he far and away that much better than Ryan?? Come on sox fan be realistic and stop hating on a cross town player. Bit of respect?

Greinke has been much better than Dempster. His DIPS are far and away better. You want to know why the "results" are better for Dempster? Because the Cubs have a very good fielding team while the Brewers are awful.


tERA: Greinke wins by 82 points.

SIERA: Greinke wins by 84 points.

xFIP: Greinke wins by 96 points.

FIP: Greinke wins by 58 points.

The difference in ERA is a matter of two things.

(1) Defense. The Cubs are a good defensive team while the Brewers suck.
(2) LOB%. Dempster's current LOB% of 85.5% is unsustainably high. His best mark in a full season was 77.8%, and that was 12 years ago. Dempster has been getting himself out of jams in a way he won't be able to continue doing as the season progresses, and his ERA will begin to level out, matching his DIPS more accurately.

Yes, Greinke has been far superior this season to Ryan Dempster. It isn't even close.

And yes, Greinke is something to get riled up about, and Dempster isn't. Also, why pick on Kershaw? Why not Cain, who is the one that is "over-loved" on this forum, and everyone thinks is the CY winner right now.

FIP: Greinke (3rd) --- Dempster (14th) ------- Cain (13th)

xFIP: Greinke (2nd) --- Dempster (33rd) ----- Cain (23rd)

tERA: Greinke (5th) --- Dempster (30th) ---- Cain (9th)

SIERA: Greinke (3rd) --- Dempster (42nd) ---- Cain (11th)

K/BB: Greinke (9th) ---- Dempster (38th) ---- Cain (3rd)

So... yes. I'm going to say Greinke is something to get riled up about and Dempster isn't.

Greinke is in the top10 of all 5 DIP categories, and top5 of 4/5.
Cain is in the top10 in 2 of the DIP categories, and top5 of 1/5.
Dempster is in the top10 in 0 of the DIP categories, top5 of 0/5.

Dempster doesn't even get within the top 30 on any of them. Again, his success has simply been getting himself out of jams that other pitchers haven't which won't continue, and also he has a better defense than other pitchers --- which helps with the LOB%.

Greinke has been snubbed left and right in the CY conversation this year. My boy is arguably the best pitcher in all of baseball and no one has bothered talking about him.

Mell413
07-15-2012, 09:43 PM
I don't think it's quite that simple. Throw xFIP out because that's a predictive stat so that doesn't matter right now. Again I don't think you can just simply say Demp's success is due to luck. He's done a great job pitching to the scouting reports. Now that we track this stuff he's able to hit his spots and play to the defense's strengths. He might not be able to hit his spots like he has this year, but that doesn't mean what he has done this far is due to luck

WadeKobe
07-15-2012, 09:56 PM
I don't think it's quite that simple. Throw xFIP out because that's a predictive stat so that doesn't matter right now. Again I don't think you can just simply say Demp's success is due to luck. He's done a great job pitching to the scouting reports. Now that we track this stuff he's able to hit his spots and play to the defense's strengths. He might not be able to hit his spots like he has this year, but that doesn't mean what he has done this far is due to luck

Fine, throw out xFIP. I'm not saying it is due to luck. I'm saying it is a peak in a peak-and-valley graph, which is sure to have valleys follow it. What he is doing right now is not sustainable, and is being done over less innings, and therefore less impressive.

What Greinke is doing is not only sustainable, but just one more season of the same-old, same-old from him, and will likely continue the rest of the season.

Lastly, I'm also not saying it is luck, but defense. That, for Dempster, is a product of fortune. That is, he has a luxury not all pitchers have, especially Greinke.

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 10:15 PM
Dempster - 7.34 K/9, 2.45 BB/9 - 92 IP
Kershaw - 8.88 K/9, 2.49 BB/9 - 126.2 IP
Greinke - 9.08 K/9, 2.17 BB/9 - 116 IP

Which of these three starters should you be getting excited about?

Dempster isn't on the same level as Kershaw and Greinke.

C-ross12
07-15-2012, 10:42 PM
Dempster - 7.34 K/9, 2.45 BB/9 - 92 IP
Kershaw - 8.88 K/9, 2.49 BB/9 - 126.2 IP
Greinke - 9.08 K/9, 2.17 BB/9 - 116 IP

Which of these three starters should you be getting excited about?

Dempster isn't on the same level as Kershaw and Greinke.

Greinke and Kershaw most certainly have better stuff. Thats for sure. Stats, scouts and personal eye test will all tell you they both do.

northsider
07-16-2012, 04:37 PM
That's the difference. He missed what, 5-10 starts? Who knows what would have happened.
Plus, he plays for the cubs, Kershaw for the playoff bound Dodgers.

LMAO he missed 3.

Either way Jeffy can you lock this thread up. Doesn't seem very topic worthy other then people bashing Cubs fans.

northsider
07-16-2012, 05:02 PM
Oh....so now it's okay by you to close the thread? Truth hurt a little bit?

Really? Are you ****ing 12 or something.

The title of this thread alone should've made this closed. If this was a thread talking about him being underrated then sure however the title has lead to nothing but, snark comments like the ones you continue to toss out. I don't remember talking about this being a thread worthy topic once.

What truth exactly are we talking about here and why would I be hurt? You think me as a Cubs fan can't stomach losing LMAO are you that dense?

Sadly losing is all I know when it comes to the Cubs.

Jeffy25
07-16-2012, 05:05 PM
The intention of the thread was not to necessarily compare Kershaw to Dempster, but rather to talk about how under-rated Dempster has been despite his good ERA.

Sure, there are snarky remarks, but the intention of the thread is still there in the OP, and it's a fair discussion. And it leads to the trade talks about Dempster.

I think it's okay to leave open. If you have a problem with any post, or what someone has said though, please report it and it will be addressed if it is inappropriate.

northsider
07-16-2012, 05:07 PM
The intention of the thread was not to necessarily compare Kershaw to Dempster, but rather to talk about how under-rated Dempster has been despite his good ERA.

Sure, there are snarky remarks, but the intention of the thread is still there in the OP, and it's a fair discussion. And it leads to the trade talks about Dempster.

I think it's okay to leave open. If you have a problem with any post, or what someone has said though, please report it and it will be addressed if it is inappropriate.


The title is so misleading that people aren't actually reading into the OP's actual point.

Keep it open that's fine just figured I would voice my opinion on the matter. Title change would prob. be the best idea.

ChiSportsDaily
07-16-2012, 05:16 PM
dude this entire thread is about why is Kershaw thought more highly of then Dempster. You can't just erase the poor seasons Dempster has had.

The main reason kershaw is thought of more highly is because he's been nothing but excellent since he hit the bigs. You can't just erase 3/4 of Dempsters career so that he's more comparable to kershaw.

Btw Dempster had been a starter for 8 years before the Cubs ever made him a starter. Those first 8 years he spent 6 of them being a poor 5th starter and 2 being an ok 4th starter. Also last year Dempster had an era near 5, an a 1.45 whip. He was not a #3 starter.

I don't want this to come off as me trashing Dempster. There's just a reason that he is not brought up when talking about the best pitchers in baseball. In 5 seasons kershaw has already had more elite level seasons than Dempster has had in 15. Dempster is a very solid pitcher but he's not on Clayton kershaws level.

It's about Dempster and Kershaw, but not the way you're arguing. The thread started out as a discussion on why Dempster didn't make the All Star team and isn't mentioned in the Cy Young discussion. There are valid points on why he should be and valid points on why he shouldn't be. However, all that matters for both is THIS YEAR. These are not accolades for past or future performance as you keep bringing up. Career numbers are IRRELEVANT. I don't think anyone's arguing that Dempster's better than Kershaw, cause he's not. However, most of his numbers warrant him being in the 2012 discussion to this point.

ChiSportsDaily
07-16-2012, 05:24 PM
Then again, maybe everyone does want to argue about careers in general.

KingPosey
07-16-2012, 05:44 PM
Sometimes, especially on PSD, people need to look passed the peripherals and just see what the guy is doing. He is not giving up ANY runs.

KingPosey
07-16-2012, 05:47 PM
With that said, he has started 4 or 5 less games than anyone else, and before this unhittable stretch he was giving up runs. Its kinda weird.

WadeKobe
07-16-2012, 05:50 PM
Sadly losing is all I know when it comes to the Cubs.

:cheers: Here's to hoping it stays that way!

WadeKobe
07-16-2012, 05:52 PM
With that said, he has started 4 or 5 less games than anyone else, and before this unhittable stretch he was giving up runs. Its kinda weird.

It isn't weird at all. Like I said a few posts back.... it is a peak in a peak and valley graph. We simply haven't gotten around to the valley, which will get here.

What he's doing right now is awesome. However, it isn't sustainable. He won't, we know he won't, why start talking about him?

northsider
07-16-2012, 06:01 PM
:cheers: Here's to hoping it stays that way!

Yeah, thanks :confused:

northsider
07-16-2012, 06:04 PM
I mistook you for some of the other Cubs fans (and others) who jumped down my throat when I initially stated on the first page that I thought this thread was a little ridiculous and unnecessary. Thought you where flip-floppin' on me.

You're the one that got a bit defensive when I stated the very logical idea that fans of losing teams are going to have much more invested in individual players on the team (since reaching the playoffs isn't likely and one needs to find some positives to focus on throughout a lengthy season).

All is well.

WadeKobe
07-16-2012, 06:20 PM
Yeah, thanks :confused:

I figure the feeling is mutual in both directions and understood. Might as well have fun with it.

northsider
07-16-2012, 06:38 PM
I figure the feeling is mutual in both directions and understood. Might as well have fun with it.

LOL sadly I have some how enjoyed this season.