PDA

View Full Version : Hibbert Deal vs. Lopez Deal



thekmp211
07-12-2012, 03:01 PM
both guys got very similar extensions. the consensus on here seemed to be that the Pacers, although they overpaid because of Portland, made the right choice throwing all that money at roy hibbert.

By the same token, the consensus here seems to be that the brook lopez signing was a big stinker.

referencing some of the ideas in this dwyer bit -- http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/brook-lopez-probably-worth-big-contract-brooklyn-nets-151505786--nba.html


why exactly is the lopez deal so bad? assuming he's healthy, the guy has been flat out better than hibbert since they have both been in the league. so why is one deal, for the more effective player, being lauded as a failure while the other has been embraced as the smart move?

IndyRealist
07-12-2012, 03:10 PM
Because Hibbert’s gotten better every year, and Lopez has gotten worse. Hibbert defends and Lopez doesn't. Hibbert rebounds and Lopez doesn't. I actually don't see the comparison.

PleaseBeNice
07-12-2012, 03:12 PM
Because Hibbert’s gotten better every year, and Lopez has gotten worse. Hibbert defends and Lopez doesn't. Hibbert rebounds and Lopez doesn't. I actually don't see the comparison.

x345

fadedmario
07-12-2012, 03:12 PM
Hibbert is a center. Lopez is Villanueva

*Superman*
07-12-2012, 03:13 PM
Overall: Hibbert

If you want your C to score: Lopez.

JasonJohnHorn
07-12-2012, 03:15 PM
Because Hibbert’s gotten better every year, and Lopez has gotten worse. Hibbert defends and Lopez doesn't. Hibbert rebounds and Lopez doesn't. I actually don't see the comparison.

This.

Evolution23
07-12-2012, 03:15 PM
Hibbert plays center and Lopez plays sf.

DoMeFavors
07-12-2012, 03:15 PM
Hibbert avgs 8 rebounds a game but he is the man! Everyone just talks about Lopezs rebounding numbers..Lopez avgs more rebounds in his career than Hibbert and more points. Plus Hibbert hasnt even cracked over 50% fg. Hibbert cant score like Lopez.

TeamSeattle
07-12-2012, 03:16 PM
Hibbert plays center and Lopez plays sf.

Oh man poor Lopez :pity:

Corey
07-12-2012, 03:16 PM
Both deals are awful.

GoPacers33
07-12-2012, 03:17 PM
because hibbert’s gotten better every year, and lopez has gotten worse. Hibbert defends and lopez doesn't. Hibbert rebounds and lopez doesn't. I actually don't see the comparison.

x4629

DoMeFavors
07-12-2012, 03:20 PM
Hibbert is a center. Lopez is Villanueva

Lopez avgs higher fg% more assists more blocks how is Lopez a Villanueva?

PleaseBeNice
07-12-2012, 03:20 PM
Hibbert avgs 8 rebounds a game but he is the man! Everyone just talks about Lopezs rebounding numbers..Lopez avgs more rebounds in his career than Hibbert and more points. Plus Hibbert hasnt even cracked over 50% fg. Hibbert cant score like Lopez.

How far have the nets gotten with lopez compared to the pacers with hibbert? hibbert has played a huge role in that team improving.

KniCks4LiFe
07-12-2012, 03:20 PM
Hibbert plays better D and that's not by much. Lopez is too chilled, like Cali surfer type out there. But one thing I know, he flatout is the better offensive center between the 2. He's a top 5 durable/scoring center in the game today.

JerseyPalahniuk
07-12-2012, 03:20 PM
head to head:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=hibbero01&p2=lopezbr01

Lopez is "lauded as a failure" because of a terrible supporting cast leading to losing games. This year we'll see otherwise. Even if you remove the first year (2008) where Hibbert played a lot less than Lopez, Lopez has won the matchups.

Notice the REBOUNDING numbers in those games please

Sactown
07-12-2012, 03:20 PM
Both deals are awful.

We're in an era where decent Centers are paid like great Centers..

Hawkeye15
07-12-2012, 03:22 PM
both deals are bad, but at least Indy has the excuse that they had to match a stupid offer.

Lopez's is looking worse because he played 5 games. Giving a monster deal to a guy who missed the whole season is always frowned upon. Goldfish memories run rampant in fans minds, remember?

Fnom11
07-12-2012, 03:23 PM
Hibbert has been steadily improving year to year and is coming off a very solid post season performance. Lopez seems to be getting worse and had an injury riddled season. Hibbert's also taller, more athletic, and significantly better defensively.

Hawkeye15
07-12-2012, 03:23 PM
We're in an era where decent Centers are paid like great Centers..

I bet the great centers on the 90's just shake their heads at these deals today. By the end of this deal, both will have made more than Patrick Ewing did. And they will be in their upper 20's, ready for another deal.

Ridiculous.

Lisound15
07-12-2012, 03:24 PM
Hibbert avgs 8 rebounds a game but he is the man! Everyone just talks about Lopezs rebounding numbers..Lopez avgs more rebounds in his career than Hibbert and more points. Plus Hibbert hasnt even cracked over 50% fg. Hibbert cant score like Lopez.

lmao.
hibbert outrebounds him per 36 minutes by 2 boards.
and last season had double the boards per 36 minutes.
if you look at stats per 36 minutes brook lopez hasn't played defense our rebounded well since his rookie year


and btw, hibberts trending upward and improving, lopez trending downward and constantly injured
/thread

DoMeFavors
07-12-2012, 03:26 PM
How far have the nets gotten with lopez compared to the pacers with hibbert? hibbert has played a huge role in that team improving.

Look at who Lopez has played with and then look at Pacers they have a ton of Depth. West,Granger, Paul George,Collison, George Hill, Psycho T. Then look at the Nets he played less than 20 games with Deron Williams an most of his career with 2nd best player being Devin Harris.

PleaseBeNice
07-12-2012, 03:26 PM
Hibbert plays better D and that's not by much. Lopez is too chilled, like Cali surfer type out there. But one thing I know, he flatout is the better offensive center between the 2. He's a top 5 durable/scoring center in the game today.

Confirmed for knowing nothing.

John Walls Era
07-12-2012, 03:26 PM
if you combine them, he would be the best in the league

PleaseBeNice
07-12-2012, 03:27 PM
Look at who Lopez has played with and then look at Pacers they have a ton of Depth. West,Granger, Paul George,Collison, George Hill, Psycho T. Then look at the Nets he played less than 20 games with Deron Williams an most of his career with 2nd best player being Devin Harris.

Exactly why I said key word "ROLE". Anf i thought you guys had one of the best point guards in the game? that doesnt help?

DoMeFavors
07-12-2012, 03:28 PM
lmao.
hibbert outrebounds him per 36 minutes by 2 boards.
and last season had double the boards per 36 minutes.
if you look at stats per 36 minutes brook lopez hasn't played defense our rebounded well since his rookie year


and btw, hibberts trending upward and improving, lopez trending downward and constantly injured
/thread

So grabbing more rebounds makes him better?

So Camby is better than Dirk?

KniCks4LiFe
07-12-2012, 03:29 PM
Confirmed for knowing nothing.

WTF are you talking about you dumb...? Check the stats his rookie season he played 82 games, year 2 he played 82 games, year 3 he played 82 games, year 4 he just had a freak foot inj. Name me 5 or 6 centers that played 82 games per season in 3 straight seasons. That's not durable?

And get off the bath salt while you're at it.

thekmp211
07-12-2012, 03:30 PM
Hibbert avgs 8 rebounds a game but he is the man! Everyone just talks about Lopezs rebounding numbers..Lopez avgs more rebounds in his career than Hibbert and more points. Plus Hibbert hasnt even cracked over 50% fg. Hibbert cant score like Lopez.


head to head:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=hibbero01&p2=lopezbr01

Lopez is "lauded as a failure" because of a terrible supporting cast leading to losing games. This year we'll see otherwise. Even if you remove the first year (2008) where Hibbert played a lot less than Lopez, Lopez has won the matchups.

Notice the REBOUNDING numbers in those games please


this is what i'm getting at.

DoMeFavors
07-12-2012, 03:31 PM
Exactly why I said key word "ROLE". Anf i thought you guys had one of the best point guards in the game? that doesnt help?

They have played 17 games together and in those games Lopez avg 24 and 8

Punk
07-12-2012, 03:32 PM
Both are pretty overpaid but Portland offered Hibbert the max. Indiana had to match it and Hibbert was a beast in the playoffs and made the All-Star team. While Lopez hasn't even sniffed the All-Star game or playoffs and sustained much more bad injuries.

Lake_Show2416
07-12-2012, 03:32 PM
Hibbert plays center and Lopez plays sf.

seriously Lopez puts up SF numbers lol

Bravo95
07-12-2012, 03:33 PM
Both deals are awful.
Yeah.

DoMeFavors
07-12-2012, 03:38 PM
Both are pretty overpaid but Portland offered Hibbert the max. Indiana had to match it and Hibbert was a beast in the playoffs and made the All-Star team. While Lopez hasn't even sniffed the All-Star game or playoffs and sustained much more bad injuries.

You put Lopez on the pacers for the same amount of games Hibbert played they make the playoffs, and Hibbert is one of the worst all stars of all time.

topdog
07-12-2012, 03:38 PM
Lopez was a good deal in the grand scheme of things because of Prokorov. If you have a billionaire owner who has been dying to throw money at his team for years and you already spend something like $250M on Williams-Wallace-Johnson, then you don't really worry about the dollar amount on a player you have the bird rights for in a position of need.

ThunderousDemon
07-12-2012, 03:39 PM
Neither of those players deserve the contracts that were offered to them.

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 03:40 PM
I want all of you too keep hating Lopez , bash him, make fun of his low amount of rebounds, and even call him "injury prone", even though that's asinine.

He will prove you all wrong and truly reveal your lack of knowledge for the game.

ThunderousDemon
07-12-2012, 03:44 PM
I want all of you too keep hating Lopez , bash him, make fun of his low amount of rebounds, and even call him "injury prone", even though that's asinine.

He will prove you all wrong and truly reveal your lack of knowledge for the game.

Wake me up when it happens.....:sleep:

knicksfan42
07-12-2012, 03:49 PM
why exactly is the lopez deal so bad? assuming he's healthy, the guy has been flat out better than hibbert since they have both been in the league. so why is one deal, for the more effective player, being lauded as a failure while the other has been embraced as the smart move?



Lopez isn't a good defender and is currently the worst rebounding center in the NBA aside from Bargnani (based on the 2010-11 season). Lopez, as I have mentioned countless times, has gotten worse at rebounding every single year. His TRB% has gone from 15.8% to 13.5% to 10% to 7.7% (though he did miss almost all of this season).


Hibbert is a good defender and is developing into a decent rebounder. While Lopez declines Hibbert improves. He was a worse rebounder than Lopez his first two seasons with TRB%s of 13.3% and 12.4%, but his rebounding has significantly improved the past two seasons, 15.1% last season to 16.6% this season.


Lopez's health is also a problem. Foot issues are a major cause for concern in big guys. So there's that.

Corey
07-12-2012, 03:49 PM
We're in an era where decent Centers are paid like great Centers..

Yep, and its a shame.

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 03:51 PM
Wake me up when it happens.....:sleep:

I'll be sure to throw it in the rest of PSDs face ;)

Hawkeye15
07-12-2012, 03:55 PM
I want all of you too keep hating Lopez , bash him, make fun of his low amount of rebounds, and even call him "injury prone", even though that's asinine.

He will prove you all wrong and truly reveal your lack of knowledge for the game.

we can only say what we have seen. Trust me, I thought Avery used him poorly the previous year (the last one we have to gauge on), sticking him way up top offensively like a facilitator, instead of keeping him near the rim, which explains a bit of his horrible rebound rate, but he hasn't shown the willingness to fight for rebounds, and get tough with offensive players and not allow them to establish position. He has tried to rely on length more, and doesn't seem to have the timing down to get up and block a ton of shots.

He has the tools, but the games I have watched him, he lacks the motivation many times. Which is weird because his brother is nuts.

KniCks4LiFe
07-12-2012, 04:03 PM
Wake me up when it happens.....:sleep:

I'm not sure why you think it can't.

Lopez vs Bynum 25ppg/9.8rpg 9 FTA per in 4 match ups. He also shot 50%

Lopez vs Hibbert 17ppg/6.6rpg 5 FTA per in 10 match ups. He shot 45%

Lopez vs Noah 17ppg/8.2rpg 4 FTA per in 9 match ups. He shot 50%

lets go w/ the "DPOY" according to the NBA

Lopez vs Chandler 19.6ppg/8.0rpg 5 FTA per in 7 match ups. He shot 55%

so again it's not Lopez, it's what's around him and now he has a playmaking PG and a top 5 SG and a top 10 SF. It's not all rookies and aging vets that are playing unmotivated around him.

DoMeFavors
07-12-2012, 04:07 PM
I'm not sure why you think it can't.

Lopez vs Bynum 25ppg/9.8rpg 9 FTA per in 4 match ups. He also shot 50%

Lopez vs Hibbert 17ppg/6.6rpg 5 FTA per in 10 match ups. He shot 45%

Lopez vs Noah 17ppg/8.2rpg 4 FTA per in 9 match ups. He shot 50%

lets go w/ the "DPOY" according to the NBA

Lopez vs Chandler 19.6ppg/8.0rpg 5 FTA per in 7 match ups. He shot 55%

so again it's not Lopez, it's what's around him and now he has a playmaking PG and a top 5 SG and a top 10 SF. It's not all rookies and aging vets that are playing unmotivated around him.

Exactly so I take offense of their defense any day

Toastyy
07-12-2012, 04:07 PM
I'd take hibbert over Lopez any day

RLundi
07-12-2012, 04:07 PM
Lopez isn't a bad center.

I just don't want him anywhere my team for that amount of money :)

IversonIsKrazy
07-12-2012, 04:11 PM
To me, Hibbert get's better and better and just has a big man presence when he is playing. Lopez on the other hand, gets called out by his coach because he is a C who barely grabs 6 rpg. Lopez is the better scorer, but worse defender and atrocious rebounder.

gwrighter
07-12-2012, 04:16 PM
Makes Bargnani's contract look like a steal at about 10.5mil per.

KniCks4LiFe
07-12-2012, 04:17 PM
I don't see Hibbert becoming 20/10. I just don't. He's not a great shooter, his post game is mediocore, he doesn't get to the line consistantly. It's funny to me, b/c Hibbert is 25, Lopez is a yr. younger and has already achieved better offensive #'s than Hibbert can reach.

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 04:34 PM
I just would like to ask again, who would you rather have Dirk or Ibaka?

Because its incredible how much you guys talk about how amazing rebounding and defending is but talk rarely about a 7ft tall center who can score 18-20 ppg not named Dwight Howard.

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 04:39 PM
we can only say what we have seen. Trust me, I thought Avery used him poorly the previous year (the last one we have to gauge on), sticking him way up top offensively like a facilitator, instead of keeping him near the rim, which explains a bit of his horrible rebound rate, but he hasn't shown the willingness to fight for rebounds, and get tough with offensive players and not allow them to establish position. He has tried to rely on length more, and doesn't seem to have the timing down to get up and block a ton of shots.

He has the tools, but the games I have watched him, he lacks the motivation many times. Which is weird because his brother is nuts.

I'm glad someone has a bit of insight on Lopez.

Avery used Lopez flat out wrong last year, as you stated, Lopez seemed better in a different role his first two years and even seemed more comfortable. I think Avery realizes he needs to go back to the way Lopez was most effective and use him up top in a limited fashion.

I think a combination of a healthy year and a restructured role on both ends will lead to a break out year for Brook.

KniCks4LiFe
07-12-2012, 04:39 PM
I just would like to ask again, who would you rather have Dirk or Ibaka?

Because its incredible how much you guys talk about how amazing rebounding and defending is but talk rarely about a 7ft tall center who can score 18-20 ppg not named Dwight Howard.

preach that stuff. Ibaka is suppose to be one of the best shut down bigs in the league, Collison is a good rebounder/defender, Perkins is one ugly rebounder/defender

Yet Miami undersized on the boards wiped their ***** with them, b/c their bigs weren't a real threat.

NJDrew2
07-12-2012, 04:40 PM
The hatred of Brook Lopez baffles me. He's a good kid, he's young, he hits his free throws, he can shoot it from the outside, and he has a knack for getting to the line. He's okay in the post. Not great, but not horrible. But hey, he can't defend or rebound like Ben Wallace used to!
The only centers in the NBA that aren't overpaid are the ones still on their rookie deals. And maybe Dwight. But everyone hates him too so maybe he should take a paycut for all of his crying.

knicksfan42
07-12-2012, 04:46 PM
When it comes to Centers: Defense + Rebounding > Offense.

Chill_Will_24
07-12-2012, 04:47 PM
we can only say what we have seen. Trust me, I thought Avery used him poorly the previous year (the last one we have to gauge on), sticking him way up top offensively like a facilitator, instead of keeping him near the rim, which explains a bit of his horrible rebound rate, but he hasn't shown the willingness to fight for rebounds, and get tough with offensive players and not allow them to establish position. He has tried to rely on length more, and doesn't seem to have the timing down to get up and block a ton of shots.

He has the tools, but the games I have watched him, he lacks the motivation many times. Which is weird because his brother is nuts.

Yea their mother and father did a horrible job splitting those genes when they procreated :laugh2:

KniCks4LiFe
07-12-2012, 04:49 PM
When it comes to Centers: Defense + Rebounding > Offense.

that's nice, but in the era of the whistle, big men who are mostly Defense and Rebounding <<< Offense

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 04:51 PM
preach that stuff. Ibaka is suppose to be one of the best shut down bigs in the league, Collison is a good rebounder/defender, Perkins is one ugly rebounder/defender

Yet Miami undersized on the boards wiped their ***** with them, b/c their bigs weren't a real threat.

Exactly. I would be willing to bet almost anything that if Lopez was on the Thunder instead of 2 of the three of Ibaka/Perkins/Collison they'd have won that series.

Dirk is a guy who simply just scores, and scores well. He doesnt rebound well nor does he play defense very effectively but the way he carries himself on the offensive end makes up for everything.

I'm not saying Lopez is Dirk, but I wouldnt put them far part from each other (besides the obvious range Dirk has, although Lopez is money from 17 ft). Lopez can be a career 20/7.5/1 guy (Points/Rebounds/Blocks), thats a great player in the league no matter what kind of defensive prowess they hold.

Hoopin&Swoopin
07-12-2012, 04:53 PM
I just would like to ask again, who would you rather have Dirk or Ibaka?

Because its incredible how much you guys talk about how amazing rebounding and defending is but talk rarely about a 7ft tall center who can score 18-20 ppg not named Dwight Howard.

I get the point that you're making but that's a pretty weak analogy. I think most logical people would take an elite offensive player like Dirk over an elite shot blocker like Serge. However, Brook is not an elite offensive player (at least not yet).

On another note, I think Brook will have a solid year and could potentially make the All Star Team. I'd give Hibbert the edge at this point, but the difference between him and Brook isn't large at all.

knicksfan42
07-12-2012, 04:56 PM
that's nice, but in the era of the whistle, big men who are mostly Defense and Rebounding <<< Offense

Obviously for PFs not true for Centers.

BigBongTheory
07-12-2012, 04:58 PM
I just would like to ask again, who would you rather have Dirk or Ibaka?

Because its incredible how much you guys talk about how amazing rebounding and defending is but talk rarely about a 7ft tall center who can score 18-20 ppg not named Dwight Howard.

LOL, Comparing Lopez and Hibbert to Dirk and Ibaka. Well the easy answer is they play totally different positions. Alot of people would take Ibaka because his contract and his age, but Dirk at 26 and Ibaka at 26 is no question who everyone should pick.

BigBongTheory
07-12-2012, 05:00 PM
preach that stuff. Ibaka is suppose to be one of the best shut down bigs in the league, Collison is a good rebounder/defender, Perkins is one ugly rebounder/defender

Yet Miami undersized on the boards wiped their ***** with them, b/c their bigs weren't a real threat.

The Nets have 2 hall of fame locks and a top 10 PF?

KniCks4LiFe
07-12-2012, 05:03 PM
Obviously for PFs not true for Centers.

Really? perfect example, Marcus Camby is a defensive C, he has reached the NBA Finals once in his career. He's gotten out of the 1st rd. twice in his 16 yrs. and 11 trips.

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 05:03 PM
I get the point that you're making but that's a pretty weak analogy. I think most logical people would take an elite offensive player like Dirk over an elite shot blocker like Serge. However, Brook is not an elite offensive player (at least not yet).

On another note, I think Brook will have a solid year and could potentially make the All Star Team. I'd give Hibbert the edge at this point, but the difference between him and Brook isn't large at all.

The analogy makes sense because of how people are rating defense over offense. I took one high scoring big and compared him to a strong defensive big. I was just trying to show the absurdity of the argument against Lopez as a player because of his lack of defense.

Brook Lopez IMO is one of the best offensive centers in the league, on the offensive end he does everything right. He has an excellent mid range shot, post moves, shoots 79.6 % from the FT line for his career, and actually is an effective offensive rebounder. He will be elite on the offensive end sooner or later, I'm just shocked people ignore these things and would rather beat up on his lack of high rebounding numbers.

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 05:05 PM
LOL, Comparing Lopez and Hibbert to Dirk and Ibaka. Well the easy answer is they play totally different positions. Alot of people would take Ibaka because his contract and his age, but Dirk at 26 and Ibaka at 26 is no question who everyone should pick.

The analogy had nothing to do with Hibbert.

It had to do with the way people value defense compared to how they value offense. Read my post above.

KniCks4LiFe
07-12-2012, 05:07 PM
Z-Bo hardly plays D, but his offense is more valueable than Taj Gibson's D in a playoff series.

knicksfan42
07-12-2012, 05:08 PM
The analogy makes sense because of how people are rating defense over offense.


Well no it doesn't, because people are rating defense and rebounding over offense when it comes to centers.

knicksfan42
07-12-2012, 05:09 PM
Z-Bo hardly plays D, but his offense is more valueable than Taj Gibson's D in a playoff series.

Again both are power forwards and Z-Bo is also an elite rebounder.

Chill_Will_24
07-12-2012, 05:09 PM
A great post. Its from a while ago but it states pretty much everything you need to know about Lopez his struggles and his strengths.


Don't have time to write a long piece like I usually do, but I just wanted to get the discussion going.

I think the majority of Nets fans take Brook Lopez for granted; many of them are forgetting how good Brook Lopez can be. *Obviously it would behoove the Nets to trade him for Dwight Howard if he becomes available, but that's because Howard is the second-best player in the NBA; that shouldn't be a slight at Lopez. *




Lopez is the best offensive center in the NBA; he's shown himself to be fully capable of rebounding at an average clip (remember: he posted 33 double-doubles last season); he's one of the league's better shot-blockers (his BLK% has dipped because of poor team-defense); he's extremely durable, having played in every game since he was drafted; and he's only 23. *




He didn't rebound well this season, but we have to remember the toll that mononucleosis took on his body. *He claimed to have gained all of the weight he lost back, but it's easy to see that he didn't. *If Lopez can recover from minor surgery to remove a calcium deposit from his arm and add weight to his lower-half and core, he can re-enter himself in the conversation as the second-best center in the NBA. *We all saw what he did in his first two seasons in the NBA -- on both sides of the court -- you don't just lose that. *Lopez still has that in him; and the Nets have a leader in Deron Williams who can get it out of him.




I used to be considered a "Lopez hater" because I questioned his basketball IQ and toughness, but I never doubted his skill-set. *I almost feel as if I've swapped sides -- now, I feel like I have to remind Nets fans just how good Lopez can be. *The Brook Lopez we saw this past season wasn't playing at 100%. *Not only was he competing below his normal weight, he was also playing through a calcium deposit in his shooting arm. *The Nets have a great future; with or without Howard.




Remember THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeGt5Pz1rVE)? *That was only his sophomore season; with added weight and maturity, Lopez can become a top-20 player. *We're talking about a legit 7'1" player with great touch; a consistent outside game that stretches out to the base of the three-point line; a polished post-game; and the ability to finish strong down-low. *Lopez isn't a great defensive player -- although he is a good shot-blocker -- but a lot of defense is effort and technique. *You can teach someone to rotate; you can show someone how to contest a shot; you can tell someone how to body up on their man; you can coach someone to box-out; but you can't teach talent. *Don't sleep on Brook Lopez (because you'll probably give him mono).

Most posters here are like sheep and merely repeat what other posters say without any real base to support their claims. "Lopez sucks cuz he cant rebound or play defense" is an example of such a misguided and popular stance people like to recycle. Want a list of star big men that cant rebound or play D? Because the list is quite extensive and one of the most overrated ones is right across the river in NY.

FACT: Brook Lopez had his best season when VC and Harris were here to take pressure off him and Brook didnt have to deal with doubles and triples. I will be shocked if a healthy Lopez doesnt make the All Star team this year

BigBongTheory
07-12-2012, 05:11 PM
The analogy had nothing to do with Hibbert.

It had to do with the way people value defense compared to how they value offense. Read my post above.

But your whole point is Lopez's offense over Hibbert's rebounding and Defense.

Lopez's offense doesn't come close to the consistency and level of Dirk Nowitzki. That is why some people would still choose Dirk Nowitzki over Ibaka even with age/Huge contract and the fact of Ibaka being an elite defender and Dirk not so much. When it comes to Lopez, most people would rather have Hibbert because Lopez's offense isn't elite when comparing the two sides.

knicksfan42
07-12-2012, 05:13 PM
Most posters here are like sheep and merely repeat what other posters say without any real base to support their claims. "Lopez sucks cuz he cant rebound or play defense" is an example of such a misguided and popular stance people like to recycle. Want a list of star big men that cant rebound or play D? Because the list is quite extensive and one of the most overrated one is right across the river in NY.


Well the rebounding portion is grounded in statistical fact. Defense is just watching him play.


I would love a list of centers who can't rebound or play defense.

Hawkeye15
07-12-2012, 05:15 PM
I'm glad someone has a bit of insight on Lopez.

Avery used Lopez flat out wrong last year, as you stated, Lopez seemed better in a different role his first two years and even seemed more comfortable. I think Avery realizes he needs to go back to the way Lopez was most effective and use him up top in a limited fashion.

I think a combination of a healthy year and a restructured role on both ends will lead to a break out year for Brook.

With 3 legit wings, one being a floor spacer, and a top 5 PG, they need to get his *** running high/low, setting screens and moving without the ball to utilize his athletic ability and passing ability. He can also knock down midrange jumpers at a decent rate, but Lopez, imho, has got to establish himself as more of a paint threat, and that is up to the coaching staff.

Maybe playing for a better team will light some fire under his ***, he seemed to always be missing that mean streak.

BigBongTheory
07-12-2012, 05:16 PM
@JohnnytheJet I think if it was a comparison of Hibbert or Shaq with no defense abilities than it would be a no contest. Because Shaq's offense in his prime was elite/legendary.

NYtilIdie
07-12-2012, 05:16 PM
Because Hibbert’s gotten better every year, and Lopez has gotten worse. Hibbert defends and Lopez doesn't. Hibbert rebounds and Lopez doesn't. I actually don't see the comparison.

Mods can now close this thread.

Hawkeye15
07-12-2012, 05:17 PM
Neither will justify these deals, but that is the state of the NBA, where centers are overpaid everywhere. Can anyone please justify to me how either of these guys should get Love, Rose, or Westbrook money (I know, the 5th year on the last 2, but the point is they all got a max)?

So you can attack it or defend it all you want. Neither player will be worth their deals. Oh well, move on.

knicksfan42
07-12-2012, 05:18 PM
@JohnnytheJet I think if it was a comparison of Hibbert or Shaq with no defense abilities than it would be a no contest. Because Shaq's offense in his prime was elite/legendary.

To be fair that really isn't a great comparison either. A good one would be Shaq without the D AND Rebounding or Ben Wallace at the C spot.

YoungOne
07-12-2012, 05:19 PM
lopez will come back strong, best scoring center in the nba.

BigBongTheory
07-12-2012, 05:20 PM
To be fair that really isn't a great comparison either. A good one would be Shaq without the D AND Rebounding or Ben Wallace at the C spot.

I was just trying to create a quick comparison to his initial one. But as far as the comparison goes, It's scoring will be picked over elite defense, Only if the scoring is a certain level. Like Shaq's, Dirk's etc.

knicksfan42
07-12-2012, 05:21 PM
I was just trying to create a quick comparison to his initial one.

I understand.

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 05:28 PM
A great post. Its from a while ago but it states pretty much everything you need to know about Lopez his struggles and his strengths.



Most posters here are like sheep and merely repeat what other posters say without any real base to support their claims. "Lopez sucks cuz he cant rebound or play defense" is an example of such a misguided and popular stance people like to recycle. Want a list of star big men that cant rebound or play D? Because the list is quite extensive and one of the most overrated ones is right across the river in NY.

FACT: Brook Lopez had his best season when VC and Harris were here to take pressure off him and Brook didnt have to deal with doubles and triples. I will be shocked if a healthy Lopez doesnt make the All Star team this year
Excellent post by you and YounG n STuPiD, unfortunately people wont read it because its either A) too long to read or B) something that supports Lopez.

Chill_Will_24
07-12-2012, 05:30 PM
Well the rebounding portion is grounded in statistical fact. Defense is just watching him play.


I would love a list of centers who can't rebound or play defense.

Deandre Jordan
McGee
Bargnani
Amare
Pekovic
Bosh
David Lee
Nene
Dirk

Just to name a few. These are all starting big men that either dont rebound the ball as well as they should, are bad defensively or a mix of both.

Lopez showed he can rebound the ball when healthy and surrounded by a motivated team.

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 05:30 PM
Well no it doesn't, because people are rating defense and rebounding over offense when it comes to centers.

I'd take a Center who lacks defense and rebounding but is elite on the scoring end than take a Center who can just play D and rebound anyday.

Chill_Will_24
07-12-2012, 05:30 PM
Excellent post by you and YounG n STuPiD, unfortunately people wont read it because its either A) too long to read or B) something that supports Lopez.

That was all Young n Stupid. That man knows his stuff.

StinkEye
07-12-2012, 05:31 PM
these are two of the most awkward-playing gargantuans in the NBA.

Hawkeye15
07-12-2012, 05:33 PM
Deandre Jordan
McGee
Bargnani
Amare
Pekovic
Bosh
David Lee
Nene
Dirk

Just to name a few. These are all starting big men that either dont rebound the ball as well as they should, are bad defensively or a mix of both.

Lopez showed he can rebound the ball when healthy and surrounded by a motivated team.

Pekovic is a very good offensive rebounder with Love playing outside the lane most of the time. Not many defensive rebounds available when Kevin Love is your teammate...

knicksfan42
07-12-2012, 05:33 PM
I'd take a Center who lacks defense and rebounding but is elite on the scoring end than take a Center who can just play D and rebound anyday.

Well you can take whatever you want, but the fact is with centers, Defense +Rebounding > Offense.

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 05:34 PM
But your whole point is Lopez's offense over Hibbert's rebounding and Defense.

Lopez's offense doesn't come close to the consistency and level of Dirk Nowitzki. That is why some people would still choose Dirk Nowitzki over Ibaka even with age/Huge contract and the fact of Ibaka being an elite defender and Dirk not so much. When it comes to Lopez, most people would rather have Hibbert because Lopez's offense isn't elite when comparing the two sides.

But Lopez's offense is elite compared to Hibbert, his offense for his position is one of the best in the league, period.

He shoots better from the FT line, has a midge range shot, and has post moves. Hibbert surprisingly is just average at all these things.

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 05:39 PM
That was all Young n Stupid. That man knows his stuff.

Too bad he hasnt gotten into these NBA forum discussions to help support the case for Lopez.

Is he involved over at Netsdaily?

psperry34116
07-12-2012, 05:40 PM
I think you have to think about team needs here. The Nets look like theyre set as a decent team with Wallace, Dwill and JJ. If Indiana didnt have Hibbert last year, they were probably around an 8 seed. Even if his numbers arent as impressive, he was the best player on a team that finished with a better record than the Lakers, Clippers, Celtics and Knicks.

knicksfan42
07-12-2012, 05:40 PM
Deandre Jordan
McGee
Bargnani
Amare
Pekovic
Bosh
David Lee
Nene
Dirk

Just to name a few. These are all starting big men that either dont rebound the ball as well as they should, are bad defensively or a mix of both.

Lopez showed he can rebound the ball when healthy and surrounded by a motivated team.

I wanted a list of CENTERS who can't play defense AND can't rebound.


Deandre Jordan can both play defense and rebound.

McGee can both play defense and rebound.

Don't know much about Pekovic. When he played the Knicks his D seemed alright.



The rest are PFs.

StinkEye
07-12-2012, 05:43 PM
I wanted a list of CENTERS who can't play defense AND can't rebound.


Deandre Jordan can both play defense and rebound.

McGee can both play defense and rebound.

Don't know much about Pekovic. When he played the Knicks his D seemed alright.



The rest are PFs.

kinda.

BKLYNpigeon
07-12-2012, 05:50 PM
who cares, The Nets Owner is the richest Owner in the USA. I dont think he cares about Luxury Tax.

Chill_Will_24
07-12-2012, 05:51 PM
I'd take a Center who lacks defense and rebounding but is elite on the scoring end than take a Center who can just play D and rebound anyday.

You can motivate a C and teach him how to box out and rotate on defense. You cant just teach a 7fter how to develop a soft touch and versatile offensive skills.

I would just like to add that Brook Lopez has always been surrounded by inept defensive players that routinely allowed opposing players to just drive the lane. That puts a lot more pressure on Lopez defensively than a guy like Bynum who has elite defenders around him allowing him to focus on his man.

Travis Outlaw, Yi Jianlian, Stephen Graham, Bobby Simmons, Johan Petro, Shawne Williams, MarShon Brooks, Eduardo Najera, Anthony Morrow, Troy Murphy...

Just some of the names that Brook Lopez had the honor of calling teammates on the defensive end throughout his young career. Those were all players that started along with Lopez (with the exception of Petro who was his backup) for the Nets and played heavy minutes for them at some point or another in Lopez's career.

Not to mention that one of his full seasons was under a coach that had never coached a team in his life (no lie), Kiki Vandeweghue. You think Kiki taught him? Kiki who didnt have a single video session with his guys throughout that putrid season?

Lopez defensive struggles have not all been his fault.

tnewkirk
07-12-2012, 05:53 PM
nba easily has the most ignorant, biased fans out of all the sports, lopez>hibbert.

Chill_Will_24
07-12-2012, 05:55 PM
Too bad he hasnt gotten into these NBA forum discussions to help support the case for Lopez.

Is he involved over at Netsdaily?

Idk i think i saw him there a couple of times last week

Chill_Will_24
07-12-2012, 05:57 PM
Pekovic is a very good offensive rebounder with Love playing outside the lane most of the time. Not many defensive rebounds available when Kevin Love is your teammate...

And yet Lopez can be criticized when he has played with a rebound gobbler the last 3 years. Interesting.

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 05:58 PM
nba easily has the most ignorant, biased fans out of all the sports, lopez>hibbert.

Careful, you might make too much sense.

Chill_Will_24
07-12-2012, 06:01 PM
I wanted a list of CENTERS who can't play defense AND can't rebound.


Deandre Jordan can both play defense and rebound.

McGee can both play defense and rebound.

Don't know much about Pekovic. When he played the Knicks his D seemed alright.



The rest are PFs.

Neither of them are great defenders and neither rebound the ball at a great rate.

Also Nene, Amare and a bunch of those players are often played at C.

knicksfan42
07-12-2012, 06:16 PM
Neither of them are great defenders and neither rebound the ball at a great rate.


They are pretty good defenders and both were good rebounders this year.



Also Nene, Amare and a bunch of those players are often played at C.

Right well they are Power Forwards none the less. And Amare playing C:puke:

tp13baby
07-12-2012, 06:18 PM
How far have the nets gotten with lopez compared to the pacers with hibbert? hibbert has played a huge role in that team improving.

Thats Granger and David West mostly. I think Hibbert is a hell of a player, but he gets a max. Lopez will be. Hibbert has gotten to play along allstars like Granger and West. Lopez? Best player he has gotten to play beside for a full year, an injured Vince Carter. Lopez scores. Has rebounded more than Hibbert. Hibbert played great in the playoffs but then again didn't play a team with a center.

tp13baby
07-12-2012, 06:21 PM
Neither of them are great defenders and neither rebound the ball at a great rate.

Also Nene, Amare and a bunch of those players are often played at C.

Nene at the Center is gross.
If hibbert got a max Brook when healthy would of got it too.
Lopez> Hibbert.

tp13baby
07-12-2012, 06:25 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=hibbero01&p2=lopezbr01

Take a look at this. Its Lopez vs Hibbert in games played against each other. Lopez gets crap but has better stats. Just not a better record.

Chill_Will_24
07-12-2012, 06:30 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=hibbero01&p2=lopezbr01

Take a look at this. Its Lopez vs Hibbert in games played against each other. Lopez gets crap but has better stats. Just not a better record.

People also dont take into account the putrid rosters that have always been put around Lopez. Deron Williams only played 17 games with Brook and idek if Brook and Wallace played together a single game yet.

Chill_Will_24
07-12-2012, 06:31 PM
They are pretty good defenders and both were good rebounders this year.



Right well they are Power Forwards none the less. And Amare playing C:puke:

Why? Cuz they block shots? Both are pretty dumb players and are not great defensively

knicksfan42
07-12-2012, 06:36 PM
Why? Cuz they block shots? Both are pretty dumb players and are not great defensively

They aren't smart, but they are good defenders aside from blocking shots.

Chill_Will_24
07-12-2012, 06:40 PM
They aren't smart, but they are good defenders aside from blocking shots.

Disagree

DoMeFavors
07-12-2012, 06:45 PM
NONE OF YOU HAVE SEEN LOPEZ PLAY....Nets havent had any national tv games in like 3 years. So you are all talking by looking at his stats..if he sucked us net fans would say it...we all admit Outlaw sucks.

Aust
07-12-2012, 06:50 PM
Because Hibbert’s gotten better every year, and Lopez has gotten worse. Hibbert defends and Lopez doesn't. Hibbert rebounds and Lopez doesn't. I actually don't see the comparison.

Not to mention no one really talks about Hibbert while people oversell Lopez

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-12-2012, 06:51 PM
NONE OF YOU HAVE SEEN LOPEZ PLAY....Nets havent had any national tv games in like 3 years. So you are all talking by looking at his stats..if he sucked us net fans would say it...we all admit Outlaw sucks.

Welp, there goes everyone being reasonable with the Nets fans in this thread.

thekmp211
07-12-2012, 06:53 PM
according to the nets lopez is 100% healthy. people are so quick to turn on a guy who doesn't fufill all of what a great nba center does, but as far as 7 footers go he is among the best at scoring the basketball.

for those who say hibbert has improved every year i have to disagree.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01.html

perhaps he has improved his rebounding, but all of his per 36 numbers have remained stagnant and his scoring has gone down. now he's also gotten to share the ball a lot more in the past season or two, but he hasn't markedly improved anything besides his conditioning and perhaps trb%.

lopez on the other hand has improved in most facets in terms of per36. scoring, included. 2010-11 was his best year and the last year he was sort of healthy. his rebounding has dipped but we all know that to be his weakness.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lopezbr01.html

hibbert was an all-star last year. i doubt either player is in contention next year, depending on where dwight ends up. but if they do, lopez will have a better claim and if he's healthy and improves his rebounding it's really no contest to me.

re: defense, both are slow footed and struggle with athletic 5's and 4's who slide over. outside of dwight howard and tyson chandler this is true of most big men today. i see that as a wash when comparing the two players.

tp13baby
07-12-2012, 06:56 PM
Not to mention no one really talks about Hibbert while people oversell Lopez

No one talks about Hibbert because people obviously see Lopez has potential to be the guy. When your talked to be traded for the best center in the league your going to get hype. Hibbert is a role player on a decent team. Lopez was the guy on a team with less talent then some WNBA teams. His stats will only increase with talent around him. We finally get to see him play along side players like crash, and Deron Williams. Hibbert got to play with Granger (all-star) and West (former allstar).

Lopez, what allstars has he played with?

ball4reel
07-12-2012, 06:59 PM
If lopez can stay healthy and rebound he would be the better center.. But he has to stay healthy this yr or he will always be labeled a injury prone center with potential..

Aust
07-12-2012, 07:07 PM
Lopez, what allstars has he played with?

Harris was their PG before Williams.
Not going to get into an argument about this so I'll just stop there.

BigBongTheory
07-12-2012, 07:26 PM
NONE OF YOU HAVE SEEN LOPEZ PLAY....Nets havent had any national tv games in like 3 years. So you are all talking by looking at his stats..if he sucked us net fans would say it...we all admit Outlaw sucks.

Not pointing out the obvious are you? Since when has Outlaw been talked about the last half decade.

BigBongTheory
07-12-2012, 07:28 PM
Like I've said, Lopez is a good center, I wont come up here as a Lakers fan on a Nets/Indiana thread and troll my heart out, All these contracts are ridiculous and this just adds on to the list this offseason, that's all.

JerseysFinest
07-12-2012, 07:46 PM
I understand the concerns people would have, but people should play close attention to how he plays this year. He was considered pretty solid up until he got mono, the calcium deposit, and broke his foot. That's when the "he's a horrible rebounder!!!, he's soft as charmin!!" claims began. I expect him to play pretty well especially next to real NBA players.

koreancabbage
07-12-2012, 07:58 PM
let me know when Lopez plays a full season and we can discuss this. Its like the Lopez vs Bynum for Howard.

Once Bynum played a whole season- he's definitely the better center and player to be traded for Howard.

Right now, I wouldn't even touch Lopez with a 10 foot pole. Broken feet will always be broken, no matter how well it has "healed". Same with Bynum and whatever injuries he has had.

These guys are ticking time bombs. Hibbert has been relatively healthy so far, so give me Hibbert. and Greg Monroe, over Lopez and Bynum (higher probability to be reinjured)

b@llhog24
07-12-2012, 08:06 PM
Because Hibbert’s gotten better every year, and Lopez has gotten worse. Hibbert defends and Lopez doesn't. Hibbert rebounds and Lopez doesn't. I actually don't see the comparison.

Thread should have ended right here.

odiz
07-12-2012, 08:26 PM
Hibbert plays better D and that's not by much. Lopez is too chilled, like Cali surfer type out there. But one thing I know, he flatout is the better offensive center between the 2. He's a top 5 durable/scoring center in the game today.

Lopez is a top 5 durable center? He played 5 games last year. Granted he hadnt missed a game in the 3 years before that but when you miss all but 5 games in a season due to multiple injuries you are not durable.

xxplayerxx23
07-12-2012, 08:31 PM
you guys talk like Hibber is the number 1 option on the Pacers. Lopez is the better scorer by far and is more efficent. Both deals suck, Hibbert also doesn't rebound that great, Hibbert is slightly better but not that much of a difference/

kjoke
07-12-2012, 08:40 PM
Lopez's rebound numbers are bad for a point guard.