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View Full Version : Is Chipper Jones a First Ballot Hall Of Famer?



Vinny642
07-11-2012, 07:45 AM
IDK if there was a thread of this, but I want opinions...

Being a Braves fan, of course I do.

Silent
07-11-2012, 08:23 AM
Absolutely Positively no ***** Doubt

Twinke Masta
07-11-2012, 08:53 AM
I am on the border of yes and no, but I am leaning SLIGHT towards no...although if he got in first ballot I wouldn't be surprised at all. He has been great!

homie564
07-11-2012, 09:00 AM
In his prime, Chipper was soooooo good it was ridiculous, I say definitely. He was and On base machine.

MooseWithFleas
07-11-2012, 09:13 AM
Who knows these days. I'm sure some voters will think he took steroids, which is why Jeff Bagwell ridiculously wasn't 1st or 2nd ballot.

Fly
07-11-2012, 09:14 AM
He absolutely is. For his career he has a higher BB% than K%, a .399 wOBA, .402 OBP, .532 SLG, and he hasn't been completely dreadful at third base, -1.8 UZR/150 at third through his career, and his bat easily makes up for his defense.

Oldmantrash
07-11-2012, 09:18 AM
Yes, Yes, And Yes again

No one in the game I have more respect for, I hate Larry so.

waveycrockett
07-11-2012, 09:27 AM
Yeah nothing but respect for this guy. I'm going to miss him when he retires and I'm a Met fan. Ton of class.

mike44
07-11-2012, 09:42 AM
Obviously. Top 5 third basemen of all time imo. Maybe only behind Schmidt in terms of hitting. Career slash line of .304/.402/.532 is crazy good for third base.

bagwell368
07-11-2012, 09:43 AM
If you count AROD as a SS*, then Chipper is an a battle with Brett, Boggs and Mathews for who follows Schmidt as the best 3B of all time. Today I have:

Schmidt

Mathews
Brett
Boggs
Chipper (the last 3 are very close)

* AROD has still played more games at SS (~140) and was more valuable as a player (hitting and fielding) at SS - so he's a SS.

So the 5th best 3B of all time IMO. Easily a HOF, probably an above the middle of road HOF (as opposed to elite or borderline). I hate this 1st ballot nonsense, but if I was voting, he'd be on my ballot when he comes up.

bagwell368
07-11-2012, 09:55 AM
Obviously. Top 5 third basemen of all time imo. Maybe only behind Schmidt in terms of hitting. Career slash line of .304/.402/.532 is crazy good for third base.

Have to consider the time he played in.

If you era/park adjust:

MS: .273/.387/.539
EM: .281/.388/.528 (Eddie is virtually as good as Schmidt)
WB: .326/.413/.440
GB: .313/.377/.499
CJ: .298/.394/.519

CJ is not better then EM or MS with the stick. Boggs elite OBP almost makes up for CJ's advantage in slugging and Boggs developed into a good fielder. CJ's stick is only ahead of Brett's in this group. But Brett played somewhat longer into his decline then CJ will, take away his last x PA's to match CJ and I'd bet the numbers would be a fair amount closer, then there is the glove which GB had a much better one then CJ.

Sorry. CJ is not better then these 4 guys. He's clearly behind two, and very close to two overall - as a player or with the stick.

Fayzon10
07-11-2012, 09:58 AM
Yes

Driven
07-11-2012, 10:04 AM
I would hope so. Dude is one of the most underrated players of all-time.

Testaverde16
07-11-2012, 10:08 AM
undoubtedly.

GMEN4EVER
07-11-2012, 10:26 AM
Easily. Top 5 3B all time, top 5 switch hitter all time. Wasn't bad defensively, he was ok in the field. Played with a lot of class, won a MVP award, a world series, batting title...guy has everything you could want for a baseball career.

Only knock on him is getting a hooter's waitress pregnant. But seriously, in this day and age only getting one chick pregnant on the side is pretty impressive for a premiere athlete...lol.

He's meant a lot to the Braves, and even now towards the end of his career he's still a great hitter. Can't play everyday anymore, but he's still f'n good. Just imagine how his stats would have been even better if he didn't blow out his knee and missed a full season.

Dark Donnie
07-11-2012, 10:27 AM
Without a doubt he's a first ballot.

metsrock229
07-11-2012, 12:24 PM
3rd most homeruns as a switch hitter behind Mantle and Murray. With that and everything else ablut him, he gets in. Nothing but respect for the guy.

Nymfan87
07-11-2012, 12:36 PM
Who the hell voted no? Chipper for the HoF is an incredibly easy yes.

ugafan
07-11-2012, 12:38 PM
Easily. Top 5 3B all time, top 5 switch hitter all time. Wasn't bad defensively, he was ok in the field. Played with a lot of class, won a MVP award, a world series, batting title...guy has everything you could want for a baseball career.

Only knock on him is getting a hooter's waitress pregnant. But seriously, in this day and age only getting one chick pregnant on the side is pretty impressive for a premiere athlete...lol.

He's meant a lot to the Braves, and even now towards the end of his career he's still a great hitter. Can't play everyday anymore, but he's still f'n good. Just imagine how his stats would have been even better if he didn't blow out his knee and missed a full season.

Good post.

MetsFanatic19
07-11-2012, 01:00 PM
one of the best switch hitters and a class act on and off the field. of course he's 1st ballot

metswon69
07-11-2012, 01:02 PM
Who the hell voted no? Chipper for the HoF is an incredibly easy yes.

I'd say at least one of the three had to be a disgruntled Met's fan lol..

It's a yes, everyone has already posted the stats, the guy was an outstanding player for the last 19 years.

Although i dislike him with every bone in my body and still hate the fact that he named his kid "Shea", i respect him as a player and there is no question to me he belongs in.

Saying that, i can't wait to go to the next home game when the Mets play them and yell "Larry" one last time.

leftie5
07-11-2012, 01:05 PM
This pretty much says it all:

"Long considered one of the greatest switch-hitters to ever play the game, Jones has earned his place among the legends. He stands as just one of eight players in the history of the game who have hit at least .300 with a .400 on-base percentage, .500 slugging percentage, 450 home runs and 2,500 hits. The others are Lou Gehrig, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Mel Ott, Jimmie Foxx and Manny Ramirez."

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120709&content_id=34789794&vkey=news_atl&c_id=atl

KingPosey
07-11-2012, 01:14 PM
Absolutely.

Iceman05
07-11-2012, 01:36 PM
I think Yes. And If the voters have ANYWHERE near the respect for him as the current players/coaches do, then there is no doubt.

WadeKobe
07-11-2012, 02:09 PM
Abso-****ing-lutely, yes! The guy is one of the few legitimate legends that those under the age of 30 have been lucky enough to watch, and watch for an entire career. I am going to miss the hell out of this guy.

Jeffy25
07-11-2012, 03:40 PM
He is close to equal to George Brett.

He is easily a hall of famer, and will get voted in quickly as well.

harlequin018
07-11-2012, 03:55 PM
Him and Pujols are about as sure fire as it gets.

ThornMo
07-11-2012, 04:18 PM
Who knows these days. I'm sure some voters will think he took steroids, which is why Jeff Bagwell ridiculously wasn't 1st or 2nd ballot.

I don't think there is anyone on earth that thinks Chipper took steroids.

HowFit
07-11-2012, 04:46 PM
Without a doubt, he's in! Will be missed...

Bravo95
07-11-2012, 04:51 PM
:facepalm:

BullHurley
07-11-2012, 04:52 PM
This Mets Fan says YES....I still hate him though

rockbottom2010
07-11-2012, 05:01 PM
without question...ladies and gentleman...whoever said he is borderline or shouldn't be in the hall of fame...follow a new sport....

Spiderman 1nner
07-11-2012, 05:57 PM
The fact that he played for one team and is a switch hitter will sway voters enuff to get him in on the first ballot. There's nobody as widely respected around the league over the course of his career and that should be enuff for the voters that question whether he used steroids because of the era he played in IMO. Also take into account that some of the people that got in recently weren't necessarily hall of fame worthy but got in because most of the people who became eligible in recent memory that had hall of fame worthy numbers were clouded by steroids. I think chipper falls under the gwynn and ripken category

Atl Bill
07-11-2012, 06:16 PM
by far the best 3rd baseman i've seen play. he is for sure 1st ballot. not only that, but this guy gave it his all year in n year out.

LASportsFan1996
07-11-2012, 08:35 PM
Yes!

baseballguy247
07-11-2012, 10:13 PM
Yes

Super.
07-12-2012, 12:34 AM
Chipper

:love:

thawv
07-12-2012, 08:23 AM
The only problem I see here is, he put up his best numbers during the steroid era. Myself? I'm on the fence as to whether he used or not. He is really a tough one to figure out. At least for me.

That aside, his numbers and his likability would make him an easy first ballot HOF'er.

Jtirado16
07-12-2012, 08:26 AM
He's a for sure first ballot hall of famer. No dount about it.

bagwell368
07-12-2012, 08:28 AM
The only problem I see here is, he put up his best numbers during the steroid era. Myself? I'm on the fence as to whether he used or not. He is really a tough one to figure out. At least for me.

That aside, his numbers and his likability would make him an easy first ballot HOF'er.

Ummmm, try checking out his age. He's old now, so he would tend to be in decline. Although he did have a crazy good year about 3 years ago. Hmmm.

Without evidence it's a dark choice to hang even the question of the juice on someone.

onlythisfar41
07-12-2012, 08:49 AM
Absolutely without a doubt. There is no question.

thawv
07-12-2012, 08:52 AM
Ummmm, try checking out his age. He's old now, so he would tend to be in decline. Although he did have a crazy good year about 3 years ago. Hmmm.

Without evidence it's a dark choice to hang even the question of the juice on someone.

Yea, I know that. That's why it's a tough call for me. His age is clearly a contributing factor in his small decline.

Also, this in not the court of law. No evidence in needed. Suspicion and speculation in more than enough here. If a voter believes he may have used, they won't vote for him. Rest assured, it IS in the voter's minds with this one.

utl768
07-12-2012, 05:21 PM
he probably gets like 65-70 percent first year and then easily gets in during year 2

bagwell368
07-12-2012, 05:27 PM
Chipper is to 3B about what Bagwell is to 1B. Joke that Bags isn't in yet. No proof on him either.

SportsNY
07-12-2012, 05:28 PM
I don't see how you can't say he is, even in the ladder years of his career he can still hit for average and has a little pop.

utl768
07-12-2012, 05:30 PM
Chipper is to 3B about what Bagwell is to 1B. Joke that Bags isn't in yet. No proof on him either.

jones>bagwell by a huge margin

bagwell has no business being anywhere near the hall of fame

thawv
07-12-2012, 06:51 PM
Chipper is to 3B about what Bagwell is to 1B. Joke that Bags isn't in yet. No proof on him either.

The only difference is, Chipper is questionable about steroids. Bagwell is known to be the "connection" to all the players who took it. Bagwell was, without a doubt, on steroids.

The Thing
07-12-2012, 10:16 PM
The only difference is, Chipper is questionable about steroids. Bagwell is known to be the "connection" to all the players who took it. Bagwell was, without a doubt, on steroids.

Bagwell is known to be a connection to all players who juiced? WTF does that even mean?

thawv
07-12-2012, 11:00 PM
Bagwell is known to be a connection to all players who juiced? WTF does that even mean?

Do some research pal.

YoungStuna
07-12-2012, 11:12 PM
Absolutely. Chipper deserves it, and he's STILL performing well lol

GottaBelieve
07-12-2012, 11:25 PM
A Hall of Famer, IMO, is quite simply a dominant player of his era - assuming the era was long enough in terms of sample.

Chipper more than meets that criteria. He was one of the elite offensive players of his era.

The end.

iam brett favre
07-12-2012, 11:31 PM
If anyone has any doubt at all, they know nothing about baseball.

sexicano31
07-12-2012, 11:35 PM
The only difference is, Chipper is questionable about steroids. Bagwell is known to be the "connection" to all the players who took it. Bagwell was, without a doubt, on steroids.

So you have proof he was on roids? Can we see the reports and positive tests please?

bagwell368
07-13-2012, 09:41 AM
jones>bagwell by a huge margin

bagwell has no business being anywhere near the hall of fame

Based on what?

WAR? Bagwell is the 4th best 1B of all time after Gehrig, Foxx, Pujols - better then Thomas, Murray, McGwire, etc.

If you count AROD as a 3B, Chipper is 5th.

All around player? Of the top 1B, Bagwell is easily the best all around player (I.E. 5 tools, the GG in fielding, the two seasons over 30 SB, the arm before he hurt his shoulder, his .368 BA, his OBP and SLG. All elite. Bagwell in the HOF is easily in the top 50%, probably top 30%.

bagwell368
07-13-2012, 09:47 AM
The only difference is, Chipper is questionable about steroids. Bagwell is known to be the "connection" to all the players who took it. Bagwell was, without a doubt, on steroids.

Yeah I saw Bagwell in AA when he was 19, 5 years later he was a good 45 lbs heavier.

My son (best hitter on his college team over the past two seasons) that is 20 has gained 24 lbs of muscle in the last 27 months w/o any juice.

There has never been any evidence provided linking Bagwell to any enhancing drugs. It's his shortish stature with 45 lbs on it that looks crazy. My son is 6' 4", he looks maybe 12 pounds heavier because of it.

Careful with your unsubstantiated claims. Bagwell faced as much testing as anyone else and failed zero tests.

justndav
07-14-2012, 04:08 AM
There is no doubt about it to me. He should easily be voted in first time.

To the other poster, regarding Bagwell. LOL.
He juiced, the injuries and the way he got smaller at the end, an absolute shell of his former self, is all a definitive sign he juiced. I remember people defending him saying he got smaller because he couldn't lift weights. Yeah right. Remember the big juicer Caminiti was his teammate for a number of years too.

The Thing
07-14-2012, 08:21 AM
There is no doubt about it to me. He should easily be voted in first time.

To the other poster, regarding Bagwell. LOL.
He juiced, the injuries and the way he got smaller at the end, an absolute shell of his former self, is all a definitive sign he juiced. I remember people defending him saying he got smaller because he couldn't lift weights. Yeah right. Remember the big juicer Caminiti was his teammate for a number of years too.

Chipper was friends and teammates with juicer Gary Sheffield

Vinny642
07-14-2012, 08:28 AM
I dont see how the Mets should hate him, I mean he did name his kid "Shea" lol, and ok we got 6 nos with NO explanation

bagwell368
07-14-2012, 03:36 PM
To the other poster, regarding Bagwell. LOL.
He juiced, the injuries and the way he got smaller at the end, an absolute shell of his former self, is all a definitive sign he juiced. I remember people defending him saying he got smaller because he couldn't lift weights. Yeah right. Remember the big juicer Caminiti was his teammate for a number of years too.

Inuendo baloney:


http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/30/ken-rosenthals-eminently-reasonable-position-on-jeff-bagwell-and-steroids/

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/entertainment/2011/01/steroid-speculation-keeps-jeff-bagwell-from-hall-of-fame/18070/

3 morons from Chicago:


http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/03/three-more-hall-voters-accuse-jeff-bagwell-of-being-a-juicer/


Well, got two posters on my personal permaban off of this thread, and thats how you make reading such garbage worthwhile.

sexicano31
07-14-2012, 03:46 PM
There is no doubt about it to me. He should easily be voted in first time.

To the other poster, regarding Bagwell. LOL.
He juiced, the injuries and the way he got smaller at the end, an absolute shell of his former self, is all a definitive sign he juiced. I remember people defending him saying he got smaller because he couldn't lift weights. Yeah right. Remember the big juicer Caminiti was his teammate for a number of years too.

Ah so, no proof just speculation. Gotcha

jman
07-15-2012, 02:15 AM
i say yeah he could be if not he will be second ballot

Jeffy25
07-15-2012, 01:20 PM
There is no doubt about it to me. He should easily be voted in first time.

To the other poster, regarding Bagwell. LOL.
He juiced, the injuries and the way he got smaller at the end, an absolute shell of his former self, is all a definitive sign he juiced. I remember people defending him saying he got smaller because he couldn't lift weights. Yeah right. Remember the big juicer Caminiti was his teammate for a number of years too.

bahahhaha!


That is no proof.

thawv
07-15-2012, 09:04 PM
Ok. I'm sorry to say this, but I have to. Since when do we need "proof" of testing positive? Do you guys have any idea how may players test positive? Just because it's not revealed, doesn't mean they're clean! MLB will NOT reveal a top player testing positive.......it's just not good for the game. BUMS!!!! That's what you're gonna here about testing dirty. It's such a joke, it's hard to believe. So many fans are honestly delusional about what's going on as far as enhancing.

Why do you guys think that Braun beat it? Cuz it "leaked" out.! It wasn't suppose to be public. So the MLB just put it under the rug and found him, "not guilty!" Now that's some funny stuff.

Open your eyes my friends! The game is still dirty.

sexicano31
07-15-2012, 09:17 PM
Yeah guys, its a HUGE conspiracy!!!!

Braun didnt beat the test because it got "leaked" out and MLB had nothing to do with finding him "not guilty" or not. Jesus christ

thawv
07-15-2012, 09:29 PM
Yeah guys, its a HUGE conspiracy!!!!

Braun didnt beat the test because it got "leaked" out and MLB had nothing to do with finding him "not guilty" or not. Jesus christ

Good stuff, my guy.............

JerseyBrave
07-16-2012, 10:42 AM
Dumb topic, chipper is the only switch hitter in history to have a career 300+ average and have 400+ homeruns, with also a ridiculously high on base percentage. The case can be made that he is the best switch hitter of all time due to the fact that he was the most complete all atound switch hitter. Not even mantle had a 300+ batting average. For these reasons alone he is a sure fire first ballot HOF

Joker55
07-16-2012, 10:59 AM
Unquestionably a first ballot HoF.

OT Thriller
07-17-2012, 01:25 AM
Chipper Jones is one of my favorite baseball players so obviously I'm hoping he's first ballot. Either way, he's a lock for the Hall of Fame and it will be awesome when he's inducted.

Pinstripe pride
07-17-2012, 09:02 AM
i think he should be, but have a funny feeling he wont for some reason

adab
07-17-2012, 10:48 AM
As I've said in the past, I do not think any player who has played in the past 20 years should be in the HOF. Until they clear up the nonsense about steroids and guilt by association - see Jeff Bagwell as prime example - then we have to assume 100% of the players who played a single game before PED testing came into effect took some sort of steroids or illegal drug to improve their performance.
It's called due dilligence and the assumption of innocense until proven guilty. In a court of law, you're assumed innocent until proven guilty, but in baseball that's not the case any more.
My solution is this: either you can difinitively prove the player cheated or you can't. If he cheated, then no he doesn't get in. If you only suspect him of cheating without concrete evidence, they you have vote on him based on his credentials.
Lastly, if you're argument is that a player who took any PEDs and or illegal drugs, you might as well eliminate the players from the 50's, 60's & seventees. Half of them took amphetamines and hard core drugs.
If you're looking for players who are not taking some sort of aid to better their production, only choose kids who never made it past primary school.

StayOnBoard
07-17-2012, 12:35 PM
100% absolutely.... I hate the Braves but this guy is a class act and should be on the first ballot.

Of course.... with the writers we have.... who really knows.....

bagwell368
07-17-2012, 09:26 PM
Dumb topic, chipper is the only switch hitter in history to have a career 300+ average and have 400+ homeruns, with also a ridiculously high on base percentage. The case can be made that he is the best switch hitter of all time due to the fact that he was the most complete all atound switch hitter. Not even mantle had a 300+ batting average. For these reasons alone he is a sure fire first ballot HOF

Not even Mantle had a .300 average?

Mantle was .042 above lg in BA
Mantle was .092 above lg in OBP
Mantle was .170 above lg in SLG

Jones is .034 above lg in BA
Jones is .060 above lg in OBP
Jones is .102 above lg in SLG

No case can be made that Jones is a better switch hitter then Mante. None.

The fact that Jones is a somewhat above average HOF'er shouldn't be construed that he his any match for Mantle - he isn't.

Take a look at the WS ring count sometime while you are at it (7 to 1) - or the count of #1 player by WAR in the league for a given year: Mantle (6) vs Jones (0).

justndav
07-17-2012, 11:19 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=5963276

I like how he justifies towards the end of the article how its okay to cheat, when he speaks of Andy Pettite, McGwire, etc. And he doesn't have an explanation for his incrediby shrinking frame and power in the last couple years he played.

I gave my opinion on Bagwell and I stand by it. I gave my opinion on Chipper, I stand by that as well.

Jeffy25
07-17-2012, 11:32 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=5963276

I like how he justifies towards the end of the article how its okay to cheat, when he speaks of Andy Pettite, McGwire, etc. And he doesn't have an explanation for his incrediby shrinking frame and power in the last couple years he played.

I gave my opinion on Bagwell and I stand by it. I gave my opinion on Chipper, I stand by that as well.

Every player except for Bonds loses power as they age. Not just Bagwell.

justndav
07-18-2012, 12:05 AM
Every player except for Bonds loses power as they age. Not just Bagwell.

Ok very true I agree. But his last three years he hit 39 then 27 then 3, yes 3 homeruns. Thats not a normal loss of power due to age. IMO, his body screams steriod breakdown go back and look at some pics of him over the last couple seasons he played, its startling how much smaller he got at the end. Thats not from just loss of ability to lift weights alone. Sorry. Its not.

Jeffy25
07-18-2012, 12:20 AM
Ok very true I agree. But his last three years he hit 39 then 27 then 3, yes 3 homeruns. Thats not a normal loss of power due to age. IMO, his body screams steriod breakdown go back and look at some pics of him over the last couple seasons he played, its startling how much smaller he got at the end. Thats not from just loss of ability to lift weights alone. Sorry. Its not.

Home runs isn't going to be a very fair barometer for how much power a player loses as he ages.

That 3 home run season, he only had 123 PA, obviously he isn't going to hit 30 home runs like he did before.

2003 - .246 ISO
2004 - .199 ISO
2005 - .130 ISO

Considering his age, that makes sense for a career .244 ISO hitter.

Guys with similar career ISO's that lost power at close to the same rate - every single hitter in history, except for a handful.

Duke Snider for example
Career ISO of .244

61 - .266 ISO
62 - .203 ISO
63 - .158 ISO
64 - .114 ISO

Willie McCovey
Career ISO of .245

77 - .220 ISO
78 - .168 ISO
79 - .153 ISO
80 - .097 ISO

Hank Aaron
Career ISO of .250

73 - .342 ISO
74 - .224 ISO
75 - .120 ISO
76 - .140 ISO

Pick a hall of fame power hitter, his power evaporates as he ages

Babe Ruth, Jimmie Foxx, look at Jim Thome

career .278 ISO

2010 - .344 ISO
2011 - .220 ISO
2012 - .196 ISO

Just because a guys power evaporates as he ages like it should does not make him a user of PED's in his career.

I believe Bagwell is/was clean during his career, and it's ridiculous that he isn't in the hall of fame yet.

And pretty well everybody bulks up during their careers and age down as they get older.

gmanthree15
07-18-2012, 01:04 AM
Greatest switch hitter since Mantle (suck it Pete Rose) definite sure-fire first ballot. Obviously won't be unanimous since baseball writers are stupid like that and there's always one writer who abstains.

Jeffy25
07-18-2012, 01:08 AM
Berkman and Jones are close to the same in value as switch-hitters, but Jones is about 3000 PA ahead

GH19
07-18-2012, 01:17 AM
Never really got to see Chipper play in his prime to fully appreciate his career, but I think yes. When you look back on his career and compare the numbers he put up in the steroid era, the fact that he never juiced and still performed well on a uneven playing field speaks volumes. He will get in.

JerseyBrave
07-18-2012, 01:24 AM
Dumb topic, chipper is the only switch hitter in history to have a career 300+ average and have 400+ homeruns, with also a ridiculously high on base percentage. The case can be made that he is the best switch hitter of all time due to the fact that he was the most complete all atound switch hitter. Not even mantle had a 300+ batting average. For these reasons alone he is a sure fire first ballot HOF

Not even Mantle had a .300 average?

Mantle was .042 above lg in BA
Mantle was .092 above lg in OBP
Mantle was .170 above lg in SLG

Jones is .034 above lg in BA
Jones is .060 above lg in OBP
Jones is .102 above lg in SLG

No case can be made that Jones is a better switch hitter then Mante. None.

The fact that Jones is a somewhat above average HOF'er shouldn't be construed that he his any match for Mantle - he isn't.

Take a look at the WS ring count sometime while you are at it (7 to 1) - or the count of #1 player by WAR in the league for a given year: Mantle (6) vs Jones (0).

Never said he was better then mantle i was just making a point that he is one of the best to ever play the game and his statistics put him up there with the greats

bagwell368
07-18-2012, 08:29 AM
I gave my opinion on Bagwell and I stand by it. I gave my opinion on Chipper, I stand by that as well.

But what are your bona fides? This statement is therefore devoid of meaning.

bagwell368
07-18-2012, 08:30 AM
Ok very true I agree. But his last three years he hit 39 then 27 then 3, yes 3 homeruns. Thats not a normal loss of power due to age.

He had a bad shoulder. And other big HR hitters have had a very similar final 3 year down treand. Go look it up before you start tossing accusations.


IMO, his body screams steriod breakdown go back and look at some pics of him over the last couple seasons he played, its startling how much smaller he got at the end. Thats not from just loss of ability to lift weights alone. Sorry. Its not.

What is expertise to make this statement?

bagwell368
07-18-2012, 08:35 AM
Never said he was better then mantle i was just making a point that he is one of the best to ever play the game and his statistics put him up there with the greats

Picking out BA as a meaningful stat is wrong on the face of it. The fact that the heart of Mantle's career happened during the least offensive period in baseball history since 1921 needs to be accounted for. Once it is, your misuse (very likely w/o thinking about it) of the batting average stat is clear.

justndav
07-19-2012, 04:38 AM
He had a bad shoulder. And other big HR hitters have had a very similar final 3 year down treand. Go look it up before you start tossing accusations.



What is expertise to make this statement?

Yeah he had a bad shoulder, apparently only bad the last year- year and a half tops that affected his stats. You are obviously burned that I don't share your opinion, sorry.

As for my expertise on the matter? LOL lets just say the college degree I received from Arizona State deals with sports, management, and medicine. I don't need to be in a pr!ck waving contest on an internet forum.

And I really could give a crap less about new age "metrics" or whatever players are being measured by now. How many of them are put on baseball cards? OPS perhaps but thats probably about the only newer one.

And my friend, you have 25k+ posts in five years, lol go and get yourself a hobby or something and get out of the house.

Anyone can say what they want about Bagwell but just go look at him, look at him in uniform over the course of his career. That is a player that I am sure that used. Do I have proof, of course not.

I'm a Cubs fan and I could say its horrible to not vote him into the HOF because he was never suspended for testing positive, or there's speculation his name is in a "report" but its not proof. But again, look at him, the pictures alone don't lie. He used. I wont cover for him just because he was on my favorite team.

styxlover
07-19-2012, 04:37 PM
I definitely said yes to Chipper being a first ballet HOF and in fact the HOF is going to be very busy for the Braves soon with Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux and Bobby Cox going in as well as Chipper.

Jeffy25
07-19-2012, 05:27 PM
And Andruw Jones will even have some supporters as well.

sexicano31
07-19-2012, 05:34 PM
Sweet, doesnt care about advanced metrics and then you make a sweeping a generalization about someone due to a number on an internet forum. Guess Bags wins this one

Jeffy25
07-19-2012, 05:55 PM
Yeah he had a bad shoulder, apparently only bad the last year- year and a half tops that affected his stats. You are obviously burned that I don't share your opinion, sorry.

As for my expertise on the matter? LOL lets just say the college degree I received from Arizona State deals with sports, management, and medicine. I don't need to be in a pr!ck waving contest on an internet forum.

And I really could give a crap less about new age "metrics" or whatever players are being measured by now. How many of them are put on baseball cards? OPS perhaps but thats probably about the only newer one.

And my friend, you have 25k+ posts in five years, lol go and get yourself a hobby or something and get out of the house.

Anyone can say what they want about Bagwell but just go look at him, look at him in uniform over the course of his career. That is a player that I am sure that used. Do I have proof, of course not.

I'm a Cubs fan and I could say its horrible to not vote him into the HOF because he was never suspended for testing positive, or there's speculation his name is in a "report" but its not proof. But again, look at him, the pictures alone don't lie. He used. I wont cover for him just because he was on my favorite team.
So because a stat isn't put on the back of a TOPPS baseball card the stat is useless information?

I am sure those degrees will get you very far in life with that level of critical thinking that you just shared with us.

Also, it's not a prick waving contest until someone gets all uppity about their qualifications on a subject matter (i.e. you telling us what your education is in and from as if no one on here might have similar education credentials to top them or match them, seriously, think about it).


Also, along with your critical thinking abilities, and education in medicine and sports. You should be well aware that PED's don't necessarily make you bigger and massively bulk up. A lot of things can do that, hell just a proper diet for the first time can help a lot. And that PED's are not the only explanation, like the the generalization that you made here. There are a lot of ways to bulk up, and there are a lot of ways to remain slim. A number of known PED users didn't get bigger during their careers anymore than the normal non-user players.

You managed to give us Bagwell's home run total in his final three seasons and completely ignored the context (the amount of plate appearances and the trend that all ball players go through as they age - loss of power) as part of your explanation and accusation for his PED usage.

I'm sorry, but you aren't even really trying very hard to paint Bagwell as a PED user. Your evidence is that he was bigger when he was a professional athlete from ages 25-35 as opposed to when he was 40. That is a really really lazy accusation.

Also, Bagwell the poster. Isn't an Astros fan. He is a Red Sox fan. You should probably know that before you make the assumption about where his bias might lie.

RTL
07-19-2012, 06:00 PM
How is this thread still going??

Jeffy25
07-19-2012, 06:32 PM
How is this thread still going??

Pretty sure it's about Jeff Bagwell somehow now, and if he used PED's or not lol.

ahh internet forums and their deviations from the topic

bagwell368
07-19-2012, 07:30 PM
Yeah he had a bad shoulder, apparently only bad the last year- year and a half tops that affected his stats. You are obviously burned that I don't share your opinion, sorry.

Burned? No just do not like claims made as if they are fact when they are anything but.


As for my expertise on the matter? LOL lets just say the college degree I received from Arizona State deals with sports, management, and medicine. I don't need to be in a pr!ck waving contest on an internet forum.

Undergrad degree? How much medicine do you get with that? Hands on? Get a MD degree with that?


And my friend, you have 25k+ posts in five years, lol go and get yourself a hobby or something and get out of the house.

I would never have the time for this before 2007, since then I find myself on lifetime disability. Thanks for caring.


Do I have proof, of course not.

Hmmm... Well I saw him first age 19, probably before anyone else on PSD and followed him fairly closely. Nothing to say about Thome, FT?


I wont cover for him just because he was on my favorite team.

So sorry, Red Sox fan here.

justndav
07-20-2012, 03:54 AM
So because a stat isn't put on the back of a TOPPS baseball card the stat is useless information?

I am sure those degrees will get you very far in life with that level of critical thinking that you just shared with us.

Also, it's not a prick waving contest until someone gets all uppity about their qualifications on a subject matter (i.e. you telling us what your education is in and from as if no one on here might have similar education credentials to top them or match them, seriously, think about it).


Also, along with your critical thinking abilities, and education in medicine and sports. You should be well aware that PED's don't necessarily make you bigger and massively bulk up. A lot of things can do that, hell just a proper diet for the first time can help a lot. And that PED's are not the only explanation, like the the generalization that you made here. There are a lot of ways to bulk up, and there are a lot of ways to remain slim. A number of known PED users didn't get bigger during their careers anymore than the normal non-user players.

You managed to give us Bagwell's home run total in his final three seasons and completely ignored the context (the amount of plate appearances and the trend that all ball players go through as they age - loss of power) as part of your explanation and accusation for his PED usage.

I'm sorry, but you aren't even really trying very hard to paint Bagwell as a PED user. Your evidence is that he was bigger when he was a professional athlete from ages 25-35 as opposed to when he was 40. That is a really really lazy accusation.

Also, Bagwell the poster. Isn't an Astros fan. He is a Red Sox fan. You should probably know that before you make the assumption about where his bias might lie.


What system was Bagwell in before he was traded to the Astros, ok thought so.

My critical thinking is just fine, when it comes to statistics I view myself as more of an old school type of guy I guess. I don't really follow the new stuff as closely as I should, I'll admit that. I just haven't invested the time to learn all of it.

Bagwell has the spike in stats after being in the league a few seasons- thats when he started to show bigtime power. To me that is another possible giveaway too. Not just the size issue, and his drop off. His ramp up was pretty impressive too.

I gave you my educational background since it was called into question how I could make my opinion. I don't know why someone wants to flame me for my opinion anyways, everyone is entitled to one are they not? Mine is not going to change- I feel he used, some do not. Its really that simple.

Jeffy25
07-20-2012, 03:58 AM
fair enough :)

justndav
07-20-2012, 04:04 AM
Burned? No just do not like claims made as if they are fact when they are anything but.



Undergrad degree? How much medicine do you get with that? Hands on? Get a MD degree with that?



I would never have the time for this before 2007, since then I find myself on lifetime disability. Thanks for caring.



Hmmm... Well I saw him first age 19, probably before anyone else on PSD and followed him fairly closely. Nothing to say about Thome, FT?



So sorry, Red Sox fan here.

I have stated numerous times that it is my OPINION that he used, I have presented nothing as fact- never have.

Anyone on these forums that says they feel someone used in the 90s or prior to the testing system being in place would be presenting an opinion.

My degree is in Sports Medicine with a minor in Administration. It goes well in
baseball- right now I work in college baseball and college football with a top
institution. It would be my hope that soon I get to a professional teams system and work my way up.

My apologies on your disability situation- I do not read these forums enough to know. I have a close, close friend that just finished up a lengthy disability fight with the Social Security Administration. What a process that can be. I wish you the best with your situation.

As for Thome- unfortunately I have my suspicions about him as well, too.

bagwell368
07-20-2012, 07:28 AM
Bagwell has the spike in stats after being in the league a few seasons- thats when he started to show bigtime power. To me that is another possible giveaway too. Not just the size issue, and his drop off. His ramp up was pretty impressive too.

Here are two others with similar "spikes":

Aaron: 13, 27, 26, 44
Mantle: 23, 21, 27, 37, 52

Yeah, that's a giveaway -- if Bagwell hit 40 as a rookie you'd just say he was juiced before he came to the Majors.


Mine is not going to change- I feel he used, some do not. Its really that simple.

So, you don't want to spend the time to learn the wave of more recent stats, and you're mind was made up before your first post in this thead. OK - at least we now know what your opinion is worth.