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View Full Version : Player value Fielding Vs. Hitting..



Bos_Sports4Life
07-09-2012, 05:20 PM
Ok, So we all know hitting far outweighs fielding.

My question is this, how much more so does it outweigh it by??

Like for example

1B..Is it 90% hitting/10% fielding?

Woundering if ppl know the estimate % by each position, thanks!

yankeefan54
07-09-2012, 05:33 PM
I rather have my first baseman save one run than hit a solo hr. that being said I'll take fielder over Casey kotchman every day of the week

BoSox47
07-09-2012, 05:43 PM
75% 25% dependant on position tho, catchers, and middle infielders are higher on the fielding side then first basemen and corner out fielders.

utl768
07-09-2012, 07:15 PM
its basically 80-20 imo

sexicano31
07-09-2012, 07:31 PM
A run saved is a run earned

papipapsmanny
07-09-2012, 08:57 PM
85% Offense, 14% Defense 1% Baserunning

Jeffy25
07-09-2012, 08:59 PM
Ok, So we all know hitting far outweighs fielding.

My question is this, how much more so does it outweigh it by??

Like for example

1B..Is it 90% hitting/10% fielding?

Woundering if ppl know the estimate % by each position, thanks!

uhhhh


A run saved on defense is worth the same as a run created on offense.

But to answer your specific question, it depends on the position. You want a First Basemen creating offense, and a shortstop saving runs defensively.

Bos_Sports4Life
07-09-2012, 09:13 PM
uhhhh


A run saved on defense is worth the same as a run created on offense.

But to answer your specific question, it depends on the position. You want a First Basemen creating offense, and a shortstop saving runs defensively.

I realize that..

But I wanted to know how much more value offense has than defense for the diff positions..

For example, I know defense in more important for SS than it is for a 1B/LF ect, But is 20% of the value of a ss its defense? 25%?

Jeffy25
07-10-2012, 01:02 AM
I realize that..

But I wanted to know how much more value offense has than defense for the diff positions..

For example, I know defense in more important for SS than it is for a 1B/LF ect, But is 20% of the value of a ss its defense? 25%?

Oh! lol.

For shortstops, it's supposed to be 70%. But I would argue a .900 OPS, poor defensive shortstop is more valuable than a .600 OPS +15 run saving fielder. The positive run differential is huge.

Well, I didn't determine these answers, but I can tell you what sabr-'experts' say

Offense/Defense
P - 0/100
C - 20/80
1B - 90/10
2B - 60/40
3B - 60/40
SS - 30/70
LF - 70/30
CF - 50/50
RF - 70/30

I didn't make these determinations, but I'd say they make some sense on the surface, but not when determing value.

So if you are assembling a team, defense is important at catcher, short, and center. Then offense is more important the rest of the positions, with second and third close.

Some have argued that defense isn't that important at third though, and it's more an offensive position like right field (next to each other on the defensive spectrum).

But either way, it's easier to create runs on offense, than it is to save runs on defense unless you are Brett Lawrie or Brendan Ryan.


If you want to determine value for yourself though.

Go to Fangraphs, look up a players wRC. You can see it under 'Advanced' I think. It's somewhere around there on a players page.
See his positive number.
Like Joey Votto has a 80 thus far this year. He has created 80 runs for the Cincinnati Reds thus far this year. He has plays first base. And First Base has a -12.5 positional adjustment per 162 games played.

Half way through the season, so we take away 6.25 runs, but he is a positive 5 runs saved on the year (under advanced fielding, labeled DRS).

Net. He has the positive 80 runs offensively. We take away 6.25 because he plays first base, and we give him 5 runs because he has been positive 5 runs there thus far.

80 -6.25+5 = 78.75 net runs

This is NOT how WAR is determined.

I calculate this. I look at rWAR and fWAR, and I look at WPA (Win probability added, also under Fangraphs) and create my own formula to determine value based on how important I find each to be.

So the best hitter in the game, is a positive 78.75 net runs. He loses some value because he plays first base, but....he does play it well. But we are talking about less than 10% of his value is coming from his defense.

But, in the same sense, shortstops, if we are really going to give them as much value as stated above, they should be given more value for being good at their positions....but they aren't according to any current formula.

Ian Desmond
Has created 53 runs offensively this year
Is a negative 3 defensive runs saved
and is given 7.5 positional adjustment for playing shortstop (divide by two for half a season)

So he is a net 53.75 runs thus far this year.

Brendan Ryan
Has created 17 runs offensively this year (lol - wow)
Has saved 22 runs defensively this year
Gets 7.5 runs for positional adjustment (half that)

Brendan Ryan has a net 42.75 runs thus far this year. And thus why I would argue the average fielding, heavy hitting shortstop is more valuable than the weak hitting, awesome defensive shortstop.

WrightStuff82
07-10-2012, 02:14 AM
IMO, People are way underestimating the value of defense here IMO.

How on earth did the 99 Mariners win 85 games with one of the worst lineups of all time and mediocre starting pitching (after Felix).

Jeffy25
07-10-2012, 02:18 AM
IMO, People are way underestimating the value of defense here IMO.

How on earth did the 99 Mariners win 85 games with one of the worst lineups of all time and mediocre starting pitching (after Felix).

Do you mean 09 Mariners?

They won 35 one run games, that had a ton to do with it lol. Which is the 32nd most one run wins for any team in baseball history, and the most since the 93 Braves.

They also went 14-5 against Oakland (a very similar team) and yet only outscored them 91-70. That'll make any team's final record look pretty good.

Their Pyth record that year was 75-87. In fact, one of the greatest jumps ever in baseball history from pyth record to final overall record (winning one run games will do that).

WrightStuff82
07-10-2012, 02:27 AM
Offense/Defense
P - 0/100
C - 20/80
1B - 90/10
2B - 60/40
3B - 60/40
SS - 30/70
LF - 70/30
CF - 50/50
RF - 70/30



I like this. I think I might make 2B and 3B, 50/50 though. Arm strength and ability to turn double plays is monstrous. Also, I might move 1B to 80/20, for ball picking ability.

WrightStuff82
07-10-2012, 02:48 AM
Oops 09 yes.. I have problems with Pyth with low scoring/high defense teams. I do not think it was a coincidence that a high defense team won alot of close games and had one of the most abnormal pyth's ever.

I have seem similar discrepencies with football teams who are low offense/high defense.

Pinstripe pride
07-10-2012, 08:29 AM
short stop will have the most importance on fielding, first base has the least