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View Full Version : It's amazing how the Heat changed the NBA forever



NYSpirit1
07-06-2012, 06:56 PM
Although it was obvious what they did had never been done before, the ripple effect has been incredible.

Never before has there been so many elite teams scrambling to make moves and so many big time players changing teams.

You've seen Amare & Chandler & Melo to NY, Deron & Joe Johnson to Brooklyn, Nash to LA, Boozer signed to Chicago for 5 years, 85 mil, Chris Paul to the Clippers, Dwight Howard to ?, you're seeing more very caliber former stars/role players join title contenders like Billups on the Clippers, Rip Hamilton to Bulls, Ray Allen considering Heat, Jason Kidd to NY - etc.

It's absolutely crazy and very exciting to say the least. There was a period from 2002-2010 where nothing happened at all in the offseason. I remember one year the biggest move was Ben Wallace to Chicago and nothing else happened. So many teams since 2010 have been completely overhauled purely through trades, not the draft.

Now it's like a game of chess and all the teams are risking it all, scrambling to move their moves in order to beat Miami. It's kind of great for the sport.

The question is in this ripple effect will sustain and the next generation (Kevin Love, Jennings, Harden, John Wall, etc.), will do the same.

tcav701
07-06-2012, 06:57 PM
It wont last long,

The Lakers and the Knicks are the only teams that will go into the luxury tax in 2014-2015 and beyond.

thekmp211
07-06-2012, 07:01 PM
imagine how teams felt during jordans prime.

Avenged
07-06-2012, 07:02 PM
There have always been "super teams"..

ValuePick
07-06-2012, 07:02 PM
Didn't Boston kinda kick this era off?

lakerboy
07-06-2012, 07:04 PM
Actually, it was the Boston big 3 that started this.

lakerboy
07-06-2012, 07:04 PM
Didn't Boston kinda kick this era off?

It was [/threadfail]

TeamSeattle
07-06-2012, 07:06 PM
It was [/threadfail]

you guys are so logical...he just went with the heat's big 3 because they are the most powerful and relevant at the moment.

GSWFanInLA
07-06-2012, 07:06 PM
I think Amare and Boozer signed before Lebron..

and as for former all stars joining title contenders.. Malone and Payton to the Lakers in 04' and then Payton to the Heat. That's been done..

rockbottom2010
07-06-2012, 07:08 PM
this is danny ainge's fault

bholly
07-06-2012, 07:08 PM
There have always been "super teams"..

This. All we learn from these threads is that a lot of people have no historical perspective and really love lapping up hype.

rockbottom2010
07-06-2012, 07:09 PM
I think Amare and Boozer signed before Lebron..

and as for former all stars joining title contenders.. Malone and Payton to the Lakers in 04' and then Payton to the Heat. That's been done..

and because of that...but originally...it started with the lakers back in the early 70s...maybe even more back the 60s celtics with russell, havlichek and cousy

mrblisterdundee
07-06-2012, 07:12 PM
Kicks fans need to stop putting Tyson Chandler in as part of a "big three." He's a good defensive player, but at most, he's the fourth wheel to a big three.

PhillyFaninLA
07-06-2012, 07:13 PM
FYI TC the NBA existed before 2010. Learn some league history.

Teams like this have existed in every decade since the 1950's and often had several.

smith&wesson
07-06-2012, 07:13 PM
first of all i rather see lebron on the heat with wade and bosh then on the cavs with mo and jamison. its more enterteining to me as a fan.

but i dont think lebron started it. i think big name players have been joining forces with other players from time. the celtics and lakers have always had big name players join their teams.

Knick_Fever
07-06-2012, 07:15 PM
Didn't Boston kinda kick this era off?

Boston front office made that happen, not KG or Allen. Its not like they came together and forced a trade or free agent deals like Miami's big three did.

valade16
07-06-2012, 07:17 PM
You guys are all focusing on the "good team" and saying it's been done over and over.

Really? Find me one team before the Heat where 3 of the Top 15-20 players in the game all signed Free Agent Contracts with the same team in the same year?...

I'll wait.

If you'll remember (ironic you bash this guy for his lack of history when you yourselves apparently don't know it), the Celtics big 3 was because of trades, not Free Agency...

PC
07-06-2012, 07:18 PM
It's amazing how many threads you create

atl_braves_fan
07-06-2012, 07:19 PM
Bird, McHale & Parrish was a pretty good big 3. As was Johnson, Kareem & Worthy.

"Super teams" are not a new concept - free agency and a soft salary cap just made it harder for a while.

Method28
07-06-2012, 07:20 PM
Where Amazing Happens...

SACNYY
07-06-2012, 07:20 PM
Um the Lakers of the 80's were way more loaded and also the Celtics and the 76ers too. The Heat did not start that trend buddy.

blue bleeder09
07-06-2012, 07:20 PM
Boston front office made that happen, not KG or Allen. Its not like they came together and forced a trade or free agent deals like Miami's big three did.thank you :clap:

lebron wade bosh =:cry:babies

atl_braves_fan
07-06-2012, 07:23 PM
You guys are all focusing on the "good team" and saying it's been done over and over.

Really? Find me one team before the Heat where 3 of the Top 15-20 players in the game all signed Free Agent Contracts with the same team in the same year?...

I'll wait.

If you'll remember (ironic you bash this guy for his lack of history when you yourselves apparently don't know it), the Celtics big 3 was because of trades, not Free Agency...

Lebron and Bosh were both traded to the Heat.

SportsFanatic10
07-06-2012, 07:23 PM
thank you :clap:

lebron wade bosh =:cry:babies

funny you should say that since it sounds like your the one crying about what they did.

ohreally
07-06-2012, 07:23 PM
Didn't Boston kinda kick this era off?

Exactly. Though Boston big three really have played team ball, so it's different in a way.

venom518
07-06-2012, 07:24 PM
Boston front office made that happen, not KG or Allen. Its not like they came together and forced a trade or free agent deals like Miami's big three did.

Which of Miami's big three forced trade? Miami front office (Pat Riley) made this happen.

MintBerryCrunch
07-06-2012, 07:25 PM
Lebron and Bosh were both traded to the Heat.

WTF? no..

gbrl
07-06-2012, 07:28 PM
It's amazing how many threads you create

this, especially since they are always the same topic

BradytoGronkTD
07-06-2012, 07:28 PM
Omg haha just stop this thread now.

NYSpirit1
07-06-2012, 07:29 PM
I love how everyone says this has been done before when most of the all time great teams drafted their players.

The entire point of the thread is being misinterpreted. What is astonishing is the fact three guys came together and now everyone wants to team up through free agency or trade.

And no this has never happened before.

jayjay33
07-06-2012, 07:31 PM
Kicks fans need to stop putting Tyson Chandler in as part of a "big three." He's a good defensive player, but at most, he's the fourth wheel to a big three.

I sont see why h'es. I'll take Tyson over amare so I that makes him 2 and amare 3. Lol

Bruno
07-06-2012, 07:33 PM
Sorry OP, but Boston started this in 2008. Everybody (including Miami) has been reacting to it ever since.

venom518
07-06-2012, 07:38 PM
I love how everyone says this has been done before when most of the all time great teams drafted their players.

The entire point of the thread is being misinterpreted. What is astonishing is the fact three guys came together and now everyone wants to team up through free agency or trade.

And no this has never happened before.

What are you talking about?

1. Miami is not a great team (They have one ring together)

2. Many good players have made a decision to play with each other when they became free agents.

3. These guys did not start this trend.

atl_braves_fan
07-06-2012, 07:38 PM
WTF? no..

Both were sign and trade deals. Check your history - unless you are comfortable being ignorant and just hating the Heat for some perceived injustice to the rest of the league.

James - http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/10/cavs-agree-to-lebron-james-sign-and-trade-for-draft-picks/

Bosh - http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/09/report-raptors-agree-to-bosh-sign-and-trade-with-heat/

nicegoing
07-06-2012, 07:42 PM
Wilt and Jerry West
Barkley Drexler and Hakeem
Garnett Allen and Pierce

to name a few before Miami

tunnicliffderek
07-06-2012, 07:45 PM
sorry but i agree with the OP. Boston made moves but nothing in comparison to the Heat. the Heat started the trend and it has changed the landscape of the NBA ever since.

AKAYaReal
07-06-2012, 07:47 PM
It's amazing how many threads you create

This is always the same thought I have when I see his name

venom518
07-06-2012, 07:47 PM
Both were sign and trade deals. Check your history - unless you are comfortable being ignorant and just hating the Heat for some perceived injustice to the rest of the league.

James - http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/10/cavs-agree-to-lebron-james-sign-and-trade-for-draft-picks/

Bosh - http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/09/report-raptors-agree-to-bosh-sign-and-trade-with-heat/

James and Bosh were "Unrestricted free agents" They were going to sign with Miami regardless. The trade part was just so Toronto and Cleveland can get some draft picks. plus James and Bosh can get an extra year with Miami. (The trade was really a technicality)

venom518
07-06-2012, 07:53 PM
sorry but i agree with the OP. Boston made moves but nothing in comparison to the Heat. the Heat started the trend and it has changed the landscape of the NBA ever since.

Nothing in comparison is right. Because when Boston formed the "Big three" they won it the first year they played together. Miami's "Big three" were formed to contend with Boston.

Green_Monster
07-06-2012, 07:56 PM
But the difference with the Celtics is that they trade for their superstars, they don't overwhelm them with money.

atl_braves_fan
07-06-2012, 07:59 PM
James and Bosh were "Unrestricted free agents" They were going to sign with Miami regardless. The trade part was just so Toronto and Cleveland can get some draft picks. plus James and Bosh can get an extra year with Miami. (The trade was really a technicality)

It's not really a technicality, it is a way to get around the salary cap. And the Heat did give up value (even if not equal value) - 4 first round draft picks is far from a technicality.

I don't see it any differently than players like KG forcing his way out of Minnesota and then immediately signing an extension with the Celtics (also Carmelo, Dwight, and numerous others). My point is that the Heat were not the first and won't be the last to try to build a good team.

tunnicliffderek
07-06-2012, 08:00 PM
getting great players at the end of their careers instead of their prime is not the same.as for Boston they aquired Kevin Garnett but Ray Allen should not be considered a big three player. Heat got three ALL Star players and 2 of the top 5 players in the entire NBA its a big difference. if the Big 3 were formed to contend with Boston why did it take til after the Heat for the rest of the league to follow suit. its bc the Heat started the trend

effen5
07-06-2012, 08:02 PM
But the difference with the Celtics is that they trade for their superstars, they don't overwhelm them with money.

A lot of people forget how amazing that 08 Celtics team was...in their prime...they would have beaten this prime Heat. 66-16 in the regular season with a title....they were rolling.

tunnicliffderek
07-06-2012, 08:03 PM
Kevin Garnett is the best player in Boston's supposed Big 3. he was a top 5 player at the time but thats about it

bucketss
07-06-2012, 08:06 PM
But the difference with the Celtics is that they trade for their superstars, they don't overwhelm them with money.

they traded for them, and they didn't overwhelm with them with money since they were all discounted.

Bigbadmoffo
07-06-2012, 08:08 PM
Look at the champs in the last couple decades it's always the same group. Look at hockey anyone can win cause it requires more ppl. Hockey is too fast and physical to play the same 5 so depth and grit have a bigger role.

lakerboy
07-06-2012, 08:09 PM
Big props to Jim Buss if this trade goes down. As much as this guy is hated, he did find a way to draft Bynum, and he was patient enough to resist all trade offers in the past (Carmelo, Kidd, Artest).

Sometimes I am in awe with our management, Buss and Kupchak. We've had one lottery pick this entire decade, a 10th pick in the 2005 draft. We got Andrew Bynum. Some teams get draft picks almost every year and dont get this good (or lucky)

Bigbadmoffo
07-06-2012, 08:12 PM
Both were sign and trade deals. Check your history - unless you are comfortable being ignorant and just hating the Heat for some perceived injustice to the rest of the league.

James - http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/10/cavs-agree-to-lebron-james-sign-and-trade-for-draft-picks/

Bosh - http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/09/report-raptors-agree-to-bosh-sign-and-trade-with-heat/

Sign and trade was not necessary it just allowed bosh and lebron to get more money. You think cavs owner would do that knowing it would the only way for lebeon to join?

Bigbadmoffo
07-06-2012, 08:14 PM
Big props to Jim Buss if this trade goes down. As much as this guy is hated, he did find a way to draft Bynum, and he was patient enough to resist all trade offers in the past (Carmelo, Kidd, Artest).

Sometimes I am in awe with our management, Buss and Kupchak. We've had one lottery pick this entire decade, a 10th pick in the 2005 draft. We got Andrew Bynum. Some teams get draft picks almost every year and dont get this good (or lucky)

Good management but also the franchise sells itself.

YoungOne
07-06-2012, 08:22 PM
Didn't Boston kinda kick this era off?

no.

tunnicliffderek
07-06-2012, 08:26 PM
also though its already been said Boston didnt buy their talent like the Heat

Toastyy
07-06-2012, 08:29 PM
Didn't Boston kinda kick this era off?

truth, most ppl ignore this but they started this

tunnicliffderek
07-06-2012, 08:30 PM
people can say the Celtics started this trend all they want but its simply not true it was the Heat. Cetics just played good ball like the Mavs last yr.

Im_in_Mia_bish
07-06-2012, 08:31 PM
funny.. i always thought the big 3 were formed in san antonio..

and before the spurs, it was a mini big 3 in jersey, with carter, kidd and jefferson.

and before that there were other big 3s.
especially championship quality ones in the 70s and 80s.

so not really sure why everyone thing 'celtics' started this 'big 3' trend?

YoungOne
07-06-2012, 08:34 PM
damn, boston trading for garnett and allen has nothing to do with recruting or meeting to play together or demanding a trade or giving out lists of preferred teams or other ********

PAOboston
07-06-2012, 08:45 PM
i think what the OP was getting at was how the miami 3 came together in FA at their age to form a superteam.

people keep on saying boston re-started this trend but it's apples/oranges. 1. the c's gave up a combined 9 players + picks to get allen/kg. 2. out of the c's 3, only kg was a certifiable top 5 player; allen/pierce were certainly good players but they werent superstars. 3. all the c's players were near the end of thier prime when they joined up, not entering it like the miami 3.

the superteam concept has been around for a long time. the miami 3 is the first time though i can remember that 3 superstars about to enter their prime decided to join up via FA to win a title.

Run&Gun
07-06-2012, 08:56 PM
I think the OP needed to clarify what exactly the heat did. This is def. the the first big three. Also Boston gave up a lot to get KG, with Al Jefferson being the pivot point. KG was 31, Ray Allen had just come off of double ankle surgery and basically got traded for the 5th pick. Fair trade anyway you look at it.

Heat although traded for Lebron and Bosh basically did it for trade exception and some picks that were lower 1st round and for more money. The heat were the first team to basically have three players make a "non-official" agreement to want to play with each other and basically join each other all in the same offseason.

Although Lebron and Bosh never demanded a trade, they set the motion for the NBA superstars to demand to get traded to certain teams so they could form teams similar to the Heat, basically taking away power from the GM's.

Knick_Fever
07-06-2012, 09:36 PM
funny you should say that since it sounds like your the one crying about what they did.

He isn't crying dude, he's just stating the facts. I was all for Lebron finally getting his ring, but he uses the excuse of the Boston trio to legitimize why the Heat came together. But the fact is that the Boston FO made the moves for Allen and KG. They never got together and planned this out like the Miami trio did. Thats all Im stating, the facts. Now do I think it makes the NBA for popular and watchable? Absolutely, I can't arguer that.

SportsFanatic10
07-06-2012, 11:34 PM
He isn't crying dude, he's just stating the facts. I was all for Lebron finally getting his ring, but he uses the excuse of the Boston trio to legitimize why the Heat came together. But the fact is that the Boston FO made the moves for Allen and KG. They never got together and planned this out like the Miami trio did. Thats all Im stating, the facts. Now do I think it makes the NBA for popular and watchable? Absolutely, I can't arguer that.

the heat FO made the move to clear as much cap space as possible just like several other teams leading into that offseason. pat riley gambled and won just like mark cuban gambled going into this offseason except he lost.

JJ_JKidd
07-06-2012, 11:36 PM
Boston was the one that started this all

LA_Raiders
07-06-2012, 11:38 PM
Boston Started and Miami (2 Top 5 & 1 Top 15 PLayer). And Stern vetoed CP3 to LA? lol

gangis2169
07-06-2012, 11:45 PM
This has been done time and time again. Nothing new. But its the way they did it which makes the NBA trash now. Plotting to get together to have a ridiculous superteam is why the NBA is unwatchable. Most rejects who actually think this type of crap is making the NBA money is brain dead. Money is being sucked out of viewership, general stadium revenue, and along with basic cashflow the NBA cannot continue like this. It would be one thing if superteams were developed the way the Lakers, Boston, Spurs, etc., etc., did with drafting, trades, and development but pompus stars who want carbon copy rings because they cant wait it out for a trade, and or the ownership to make the right moves is garbage. One day order will be restored and the league will be as fun as it was in the 80's, 90's and 00's but as for now enjoy the Lebron train wreck.

Robbw241
07-06-2012, 11:48 PM
It was the Nets big 3 of Kidd, VC, and Jefferson that started this ... :hide:

valade16
07-06-2012, 11:50 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to show me when in NBA history 3 Top 15-20 talents all signed as free agents (or were eligible free agents who were going to a specific team anyway and so were able to force their original team to sign and trade them so as not to receive nothing [for you technicalists out there who actually think they were legitimate sign and trades; i.e. out of touch with reality]) to a specific team...

Still waiting...


Still waiting....

Knicks21
07-06-2012, 11:50 PM
Kicks fans need to stop putting Tyson Chandler in as part of a "big three." He's a good defensive player, but at most, he's the fourth wheel to a big three.

We dont have a big 3, but Chandler is an elite defender.

Losoway
07-07-2012, 12:49 AM
actually BOSTON did . the original big 3

Steelers23_06
07-07-2012, 01:22 AM
actually BOSTON did . the original big 3

thats true. if lebron makes it the finals he prob rides it out. bosh prob still signs with miami but who knows who lebron recruits to CLE

Hangtime
07-07-2012, 01:26 AM
What Miami did can very well be argued as a reaction to what the Celtic organization was able to do with Allen, KG, and Pierce. Whether it was trades or free agency. Boston provided the blueprint and showed you could have instant success winning a championship and even returning to the finals like they did in 2010. They became a powerhouse while Lebron and Wade's teams either were in rebuilding mode (Wade's Heat) or simply didn't have enough pieces (Lebron's Cavs) to compete with them.

The easiest decision was to "team up" to compete with Boston and it worked. Meanwhile, the trickle effect of that now has other teams trying to copy the formula to compete with Miami. And so here we are.

Dade County
07-07-2012, 01:28 AM
I'm still waiting for someone to show me when in NBA history 3 Top 15-20 talents all signed as free agents (or were eligible free agents who were going to a specific team anyway and so were able to force their original team to sign and trade them so as not to receive nothing [for you technicalists out there who actually think they were legitimate sign and trades; i.e. out of touch with reality]) to a specific team...

Still waiting...


Still waiting....

you made me laugh :clap:

Miami didn't do anything wrong, all they did was sign free agents; just because those free agents are considered all stars, people shouldn't flip out like they are doing.

Enjoy that a small market team has a very good front office :clap:

Hangtime
07-07-2012, 01:30 AM
And by the way, having a so called "super team" doesn't guarantee you jack **** if all the players on that team are not willing to play their roles. Defense, execution, ball movement etc. It doesn't make your job any easier if you don't buy into a system.

JPS
07-07-2012, 01:32 AM
Didn't Boston kinda kick this era off?

I believe this is correct it was Red Aurbach somwhere around 1950 started it all.

ink
07-07-2012, 01:36 AM
first of all i rather see lebron on the heat with wade and bosh then on the cavs with mo and jamison. its more enterteining to me as a fan.

but i dont think lebron started it. i think big name players have been joining forces with other players from time. the celtics and lakers have always had big name players join their teams.

It was the rare exception before. Now it's seen as the way to go. It HAS actually changed ... but I doubt it's forever. It's not a workable model and enough owners will eventually be upset by it that they will shut it down. Just wait for about 3 years when the Lakers start to age and realize they have no draft picks to rebuild with and a salary cap that hoops them. Then we will have a powerhouse franchise disgruntled at the way super teams are formed; also we won't have to wait nearly as long for Mark Cuban to start getting ornery about the way he can't pick up free agents because he let his team age too far and he has no assets to trade.

It may have looked like there were "super teams" before but it was one or two guys moving as free agents, not little cliques of BFFs manipulating the market to get to the team they wanted to be with.

People who are saying "get some historical perspective" really need to get some historical perspective. lol. One of the last things I ever see on PSD is ANY sense of historical perspective of any kind. What I find typically in these threads is people who buy into the rationalizations that say that what the "super teams" are doing is good for the NBA.

ink
07-07-2012, 01:41 AM
What Miami did can very well be argued as a reaction to what the Celtic organization was able to do with Allen, KG, and Pierce. Whether it was trades or free agency. Boston provided the blueprint and showed you could have instant success winning a championship and even returning to the finals like they did in 2010. They became a powerhouse while Lebron and Wade's teams either were in rebuilding mode (Wade's Heat) or simply didn't have enough pieces (Lebron's Cavs) to compete with them.

The easiest decision was to "team up" to compete with Boston and it worked. Meanwhile, the trickle effect of that now has other teams trying to copy the formula to compete with Miami. And so here we are.

You're right and you're wrong. Ainge (a GM) built the Celtics, while Lebron, Bosh, and Wade made the Heat happen, assist to Riley. No doubt he had to create a lot of magic to make it all work, but the thing that distinguishes the Heat "super team" was that it was the first time players colluded and initiated, rather than a GM pulling it all together by himself, which is how the Celtics came together. It's a huge change and it won't be sustainable. We just need to do the math. If 5-6 "super teams" are created that means that less teams will have elite stars; the top 15-18 players will all be on those 5-6 teams. That leaves the other 24-25 teams fighting it out and overpaying mediocrity (i.e. lower than top 15-18 players) to play for them. We're already seeing it, but all people can see is that small market GMs are retards. smh

Dade County
07-07-2012, 01:43 AM
This has been done time and time again. Nothing new. But its the way they did it which makes the NBA trash now. Plotting to get together to have a ridiculous superteam is why the NBA is unwatchable.

Why... because your team didn't have the for sight to clear cap room for Super star/all star free agents?



Most rejects who actually think this type of crap is making the NBA money is brain dead. Money is being sucked out of viewership, general stadium revenue, and along with basic cashflow the NBA cannot continue like this.

I agree... Theirs only 1 answer to this........... Contraction :hide: I know whats about to happen, everyone jumps on the HEAT fan that signed up to PSD after july 2010... smh

I am born and raised in the county of Dade :D



It would be one thing if superteams were developed the way the Lakers, Boston, Spurs, etc., etc., did with drafting, trades, and development

Their is more then one way to build a team... Stop trying to presume the way that you think is the right and only way.

Pat did his job and made the HEAT relevant, in a market that is very hard to generate money.



but pompus stars who want carbon copy rings because they cant wait it out for a trade, and or the ownership to make the right moves is garbage.

Why do they have to wait it out for a trade... They should have ben traded before they became FREE agents.... smh

It is not a players fault if the team that their are on doesn't trade them before their contract is up.



One day order will be restored and the league will be as fun as it was in the 80's, 90's and 00's but as for now enjoy the Lebron train wreck.

As long as Miami is one of those dominate teams... More power to fun times.

fadahway
07-07-2012, 01:52 AM
When something is going the right way for the heat, all of sudden negativity threads starts to come.

Lakerhead4ever
07-07-2012, 01:53 AM
why the hell is this thread still open? if its already repeatedly been said boston are the ones who actually started it

Dade County
07-07-2012, 01:53 AM
It may have looked like there were "super teams" before but it was one or two guys moving as free agents, not little cliques of BFFs manipulating the market to get to the team they wanted to be with.

Do you think any of the HEAT players did this??? Because all of them were free agents.

I hope you are talking about Melo, Howard ...etc

I really hope.

Lakerhead4ever
07-07-2012, 01:54 AM
why the hell is this thread still open? if its already repeatedly been said boston are the ones who actually started it

ink
07-07-2012, 01:58 AM
Do you think any of the HEAT players did this??? Because all of them were free agents.

I hope you are talking about Melo, Howard ...etc

I really hope.

It's irrelevant that they were free agents. The point was that three players worked the market to get to play together. Stop being stuck on "it was their right as free agents" because we get that already. lol. The point is that the Celtics GM created their Big 3 while three BFFs worked out their own way to get to play together. That's a historical first. Now we see "superstars" across the league copy-catting them, though not quite in the same BFF fashion.

Dade County
07-07-2012, 02:02 AM
You're right and you're wrong. Ainge (a GM) built the Celtics, while Lebron, Bosh, and Wade made the Heat happen, assist to Riley. No doubt he had to create a lot of magic to make it all work, but the thing that distinguishes the Heat "super team" was that it was the first time players colluded and initiated, rather than a GM pulling it all together by himself, which is how the Celtics came together.

Their is more then one way to create a team... Both ways have been proven to work.

How about you congratulate the HEAT for making all this happen :clap:



It's a huge change and it won't be sustainable. We just need to do the math. If 5-6 "super teams" are created that means that less teams will have elite stars; the top 15-18 players will all be on those 5-6 teams. That leaves the other 24-25 teams fighting it out and overpaying mediocrity (i.e. lower than top 15-18 players) to play for them. We're already seeing it, but all people can see is that small market GMs are retards. smh

Who says this will definitely happen? It could, but we will have to wait and see.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-07-2012, 02:04 AM
stop making useless threads jeez

ink
07-07-2012, 02:05 AM
Their is more then one way to create a team... Both ways have been proven to work.

This way is unsustainable and it waters down the overall competition in the league.


Who says this will definitely happen? It could, but we will have to wait and see.


It already is.

Dade County
07-07-2012, 02:05 AM
It's irrelevant that they were free agents. The point was that three players worked the market to get to play together. Stop being stuck on "it was their right as free agents" because we get that already. lol. The point is that the Celtics GM created their Big 3 while three BFFs worked out their own way to get to play together. That's a historical first. Now we see "superstars" across the league copy-catting them, though not quite in the same BFF fashion.

How did they work the market? ... I understand and recognize everything else that you posted.

And when you say bff, it makes it sound so girly like lol

AllBall
07-07-2012, 02:07 AM
Dear NBA,

You're welcome.

Sincerely,

Pat Riley

Cromedome
07-07-2012, 02:08 AM
Lebron James and the Miami Heat have ruined basketball as we know it.

Dade County
07-07-2012, 02:10 AM
This way is unsustainable and it waters down the overall competition in the league.
.

But you don't put any blame on the Cavs front office? They could have traded Hickson for Amare, but they said NO!!!!!!

And I agree that it does water down the league, but front offices around the league should trade their assets when the time is right ( Utah Jazz :clap: )



Lebron James and the Miami Heat have ruined basketball as we know it.

Come on man... Can you inform us how?

You are not going to blame the teams that let their all star players just walk...smh

ink
07-07-2012, 02:14 AM
How did they work the market? ... I understand and recognize everything else that you posted.

And you say bff, it makes it sound so girly like lol

I'll admit, I found the Bosh/Wade/Lebron courtship kinda girly. :shrug: then when Bosh cried last year after losing the final he sealed the girly impression for me. I'm not baiting, I really found it all kind of effeminate.

And they did work the market. Yes they were free agents but all the Decision and meetings with teams they had no intention of joining ...

My main point is that this is what happens when the players orchestrate the deals. the Celtics Big 3 was created by Celtics management through some very shrewd moves. So, the Heat model is a first, and it started a fairly ugly chapter in NBA history (over-concentration of all the top talent in a few spots leaving the rest of the league to overpay for mediocrity). Hopefully it will collapse because it's unworkable. People can then debate whether that was a good period or a bad one.

ink
07-07-2012, 02:18 AM
But you don't put any blame on the Cavs front office? They could have traded Hickson for Amare, but they said NO!!!!!!

The whole "blame the Cavs" line of reasoning is so well rehearsed by some NBA fans it's not even worth getting into. It only makes full sense to you guys and you all keep repeating the same things over and over. Doesn't make it true, and frankly "blame the Cavs" is a boring game.


And I agree that it does water down the league, but front offices around the league should trade their assets when the time is right ( Utah Jazz :clap: )

And happily suck afterwards in order to please their "superstar".

Sssmush
07-07-2012, 02:26 AM
nice post overall... although I hardly think that Boozer re-signing in Chicago to an overpriced contract, or the fossil relic of Jason Kidd signing in NY to mentor Jeremy Lin qualifies as "super team" signings...

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-07-2012, 02:27 AM
Lebron James and the Miami Heat have ruined basketball as we know it.

u mad

Chronz
07-07-2012, 02:29 AM
It's irrelevant that they were free agents. The point was that three players worked the market to get to play together. Stop being stuck on "it was their right as free agents" because we get that already. lol. The point is that the Celtics GM created their Big 3 while three BFFs worked out their own way to get to play together. That's a historical first. Now we see "superstars" across the league copy-catting them, though not quite in the same BFF fashion.
I dont see whats the difference, the Celtics GM had a trade lined up for KG but he didnt want to go there at first, he was basically controlling his own destiny while under contract. Once they got Ray Allen, both he and Pierce recruited KG, and he gave Minny's GM the blessing to trade him.

Sounds like a buddy system to me. The same system that allowed plenty of stars to team up beforehand.

ink
07-07-2012, 02:33 AM
nice post overall... although I hardly think that Boozer re-signing in Chicago to an overpriced contract, or the fossil relic of Jason Kidd signing in NY to mentor Jeremy Lin qualifies as "super team" signings...

Chicago is different. They're not a super team and they're not a small market team, they're a really good team, built from the ground up and supplemented with free agents. And the Knicks are a bit botched -- an attempt at a super team -- though the jury is still out as to how well matched all the "super" parts are. The off-season hasn't been too successful for all super teams. As superteams go, people have to admit that the Nets are also a bit wonky -- elite PG, overpaid wing player, good role players. Don't really understand what they've got going there, and I think this is what "super team" building will start to create in the public's eye: negative reactions to some really nasty looking mongrel "super teams". Hopefully owners will realize it's too expensive and too ugly to continue that way, and they will return to team building from the ground up instead.

ink
07-07-2012, 02:37 AM
I dont see whats the difference, the Celtics GM had a trade lined up for KG but he didnt want to go there at first, he was basically controlling his own destiny while under contract. Once they got Ray Allen, both he and Pierce recruited KG, and he gave Minny's GM the blessing to trade him.

Sounds like a buddy system to me. The same system that allowed plenty of stars to team up beforehand.

All directed by the GM.

Chronz
07-07-2012, 02:41 AM
All directed by the GM.

About as much as Riley directed his moves, again KG SAID NO. He nixed the initial trade because he didnt like Bostons chances. It was only after they acquired another star that he allowed himself to be traded.

ink
07-07-2012, 02:44 AM
About as much as Riley directed his moves, again KG SAID NO. He nixed the initial trade because he didnt like Bostons chances. It was only after they acquired another star that he allowed himself to be traded.

Who acquired the other star? Ainge. Again, the GM is the initiator. In the Heat's case it was initiated by the BFFs. Riley mainly had to do the paperwork. We know they were talking about playing together for 2 years since Beijing.

Chronz
07-07-2012, 02:47 AM
Who acquired the other star? Ainge. Again, the GM is the initiator. In the Heat's case it was initiated by the BFFs. Riley mainly had to do the paperwork. We know they were talking about playing together for 2 years since Beijing.
Riley acquired Bosh and he drafted Wade. And Riley had to position the team to be able to offer those contracts, he had to sacrifice some of Wade's prime years.

And I dont believe we KNOW anything, if what you were saying were true then why was Riley trying to lure Odom the previous summer? Point stands, KG decided to join Pierce and Ray Allen.

ink
07-07-2012, 02:56 AM
Riley acquired Bosh and he drafted Wade. And Riley had to position the team to be able to offer those contracts, he had to sacrifice some of Wade's prime years.

And I dont believe we KNOW anything, if what you were saying were true then why was Riley trying to lure Odom the previous summer? Point stands, KG decided to join Pierce and Ray Allen.

Again the three amigos wanted to play together since 2008. They found a way to orchestrate that. That's the difference. The earlier Celtics Big 3 was initiated by management with the assist from the players. The Heat Big 3 was because management was able to best assist the players in their desire to play together FROM THE OUTSET. What Riley was doing with Odom is irrelevant because it's not about Riley, that's the entire point. It was initiated by the three amigos: they went shopping together around the NBA to find a spot to play together. When Miami could facilitate their wish, they signed. Starts with players, ends with management tying the bow.

gangis2169
07-07-2012, 02:58 AM
It's irrelevant that they were free agents. The point was that three players worked the market to get to play together. Stop being stuck on "it was their right as free agents" because we get that already. lol. The point is that the Celtics GM created their Big 3 while three BFFs worked out their own way to get to play together. That's a historical first. Now we see "superstars" across the league copy-catting them, though not quite in the same BFF fashion.

Finally a good post. Miami fans are clueless to realism because they think it diminishes what has just transpired. It's obvious that the Heat fans will never want to have a realistic approach to this. Therefore its pointless. 99.9% of true NBA fans realize how this will ruin the league if something don't change.

gangis2169
07-07-2012, 03:01 AM
Just a question but if Jordan, Magic, and Bird hung out and decided to sneak a way to all play together and execute it would NBA fans think less of the success and accomplishments they would have together?

TeamSeattle
07-07-2012, 03:02 AM
Finally a good post. Miami fans are clueless to realism because they think it diminishes what has just transpired. It's obvious that the Heat fans will never want to have a realistic approach to this. Therefore its pointless. 99.9% of true NBA fans realize how this will ruin the league if something don't change.

An actual reasonable discussion about this with a heat fan is useless. A real basketball subject like this is too complicated for them to understand. The amount of revenue which will lop side the east will be at astronomical amounts.

gangis2169
07-07-2012, 03:06 AM
An actual reasonable discussion about this with a heat fan is useless. A real basketball subject like this is too complicated for them to understand. The amount of revenue which will lop side the east will be at astronomical amounts.

Stern will try to do his best to save face in the next 2 to 3 years by conforming the system to make it almost impossible for this to happen again. If he doesn't then the NBA will start shutting down arenas period.

ink
07-07-2012, 03:11 AM
Stern will try to do his best to save face in the next 2 to 3 years by conforming the system to make it almost impossible for this to happen again. If he doesn't then the NBA will start shutting down arenas period.

I've already seen people suggesting that we have a tiered NBA like they have tiers in European soccer leagues, a top tier for the talent-laden clubs, and a lower tier for the others. Sad thing is, people didn't get how sad that was and thought it might work. Great, so we'll have the top 6 NBA teams in their league and the rest in a 24 league that grooms talent for the elite teams.

ink
07-07-2012, 03:17 AM
Just a question but if Jordan, Magic, and Bird hung out and decided to sneak a way to all play together and execute it would NBA fans think less of the success and accomplishments they would have together?

Absolutely. Those three achieved greatness separately, each helping their own franchises dominate. It goes without saying that they were too competitive to sneak a way to play together.

Chronz
07-07-2012, 03:17 AM
Again the three amigos wanted to play together since 2008. They found a way to orchestrate that. That's the difference. The earlier Celtics Big 3 was initiated by management with the assist from the players. The Heat Big 3 was because management was able to best assist the players in their desire to play together FROM THE OUTSET. What Riley was doing with Odom is irrelevant because it's not about Riley, that's the entire point. It was initiated by the three amigos: they went shopping together around the NBA to find a spot to play together. When Miami could facilitate their wish, they signed. Starts with players, ends with management tying the bow.
So your argument is that the big3 could have come together anywhere else? Not sure I buy that.

And you can say its different but its a minimal difference, KG still decided to join his buds after they recruited him.

Chronz
07-07-2012, 03:18 AM
Just a question but if Jordan, Magic, and Bird hung out and decided to sneak a way to all play together and execute it would NBA fans think less of the success and accomplishments they would have together?

I dont know, do you think any less of Magic for wanting to go back to College if the Lakers didnt nab the number 1 pick? Do you think any less of MJ for threatening to quit if they traded his Pippen?

valade16
07-07-2012, 03:28 AM
So your argument is that the big3 could have come together anywhere else? Not sure I buy that.

And you can say its different but its a minimal difference, KG still decided to join his buds after they recruited him.

To you. Prior to a month before KG being possibly traded to the Celtics, KG, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce had never, ever had a conversation about all teaming up and running the league...

But of course the reason I'm disagreeing with you is I'm not wearing Heat/Bron can do no wrong vision goggles like you, so take what I say with a grain of salt...

Once again, show me another instance in NBA history where 3 of the Top 15-20 players all decided to join one team, in Free Agency.

Still waiting...

seikou8
07-07-2012, 03:42 AM
its amazing how many treads you start then dont post

cutiepie80
07-07-2012, 03:50 AM
It really is. Their franchise makes me sick especially since they had NO fanbase before this **** started. One thing I will say, I can't wait to get back into hockey because I will not waste time watching all of these *******s celebrate.

IKnowHoops
07-07-2012, 04:03 AM
He isn't crying dude, he's just stating the facts. I was all for Lebron finally getting his ring, but he uses the excuse of the Boston trio to legitimize why the Heat came together. But the fact is that the Boston FO made the moves for Allen and KG. They never got together and planned this out like the Miami trio did. Thats all Im stating, the facts. Now do I think it makes the NBA for popular and watchable? Absolutely, I can't arguer that.

Details... All this stuff about how it happened and why this is different from that. Lebron doesnt have to legitimize nothing. He played on a garbage cleveland team, while three hall of famers got together on boston. They were all averaging 22+ points a game, and at the end of the day, they won the ring that year so they were the best team in the league one year removed from being awful. They were champs because three players came together and formed the best team in the league. The year before Doc almost got fired. Now if winning a title and going from garbage to the best right after putting together three max salary super stars together isnt setting a standard, than What the heat did and not winning there first year isnt either. Boston did what it had to do to bring three ballers together to smash. The Heat did what they had to do to bring three ballers together so they could smash. The Details on how doesnt matter at all. The final result is what matters. And the final result was pretty much the same for both teams. 3 superstars and a ring and a future of opportunities to win more.

Kevj77
07-07-2012, 04:12 AM
the heat FO made the move to clear as much cap space as possible just like several other teams leading into that offseason. pat riley gambled and won just like mark cuban gambled going into this offseason except he lost.
Exactly, it isn't like teams haven't tried this before. The Bulls, Knicks and Heat all cleared cap space with the same idea sign a prime free agent or two.

The Lakers did this years ago to sign Shaq. Dallas tried to do it this season to get Dwill and D12. They just didn't know D12 would opt in and Dwill would pick BY. They struck out now Cuban is butt hurt warning owners about over spending. When that was exactly what he wanted to do. Just like he cried when the Lakers traded for CP3 because he wanted him.

It isn't the first time and won't be the last time teams clear cap space in the hope of signing a major free agent like Lebron or Shaq.

TheNumber37
07-07-2012, 04:21 AM
Danny Ainge traded for Allen and KG, the latter being the biggest trade in NBA history.
They won, but their stars were complimentary and past their primes.

NOW, because of Miami, teams think they can build a championship level team over a couple weeks of signings and trades. The Big 3 model would've crumbled had the Heat lost last year. Alas, it will dribble on until team oriented teams start winning the ship. But, it begins with Miami not repeating, nor winning again - for the good of the NBA.

IKnowHoops
07-07-2012, 04:23 AM
To you. Prior to a month before KG being possibly traded to the Celtics, KG, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce had never, ever had a conversation about all teaming up and running the league...

But of course the reason I'm disagreeing with you is I'm not wearing Heat/Bron can do no wrong vision goggles like you, so take what I say with a grain of salt...

Once again, show me another instance in NBA history where 3 of the Top 15-20 players all decided to join one team, in Free Agency.

Still waiting...

Players have gotten together to form teams many times before. Malone and Payton conspired to go to LA to play with Shaq and Kobe. Barkley and Pippen conspired to play at Houston with Hakeem. Now Lebron and Bosh conspired to play in Miami with Wade. They did exactly what other greats did before them. The fact that they were in there prime and Malone, Payton, Barkley, and Pippen werent, is on par with Lebron and Bosh were both above 6"8, and the other groups both werent. The fact is I have more respect for how the heat did it because Lebron and bosh were free agents. They had the right. KG and Ray basically said to there teams, trade us we are not playing for you guys anymore. And there respective teams had to trade them. Lebron and Bosh did it the way every player does it. Lebron was just so so so good, no team could ever get over loosing a player like him without becoming suicidal. Notice how Bosh did the exact same thing yet nobody cares in comparison because hes not a once in a lifetime player like Lebron.

To be real, all the Hate for Lebron is directly proportionate to how awesome he is, and has very very very very little to do with how he left. His value was worth half the cavs franchise. No matter how he left the impact of him leaving was going to be devastating because his greatness brought cleveland to a height it could never ever attain with any other player or group of players. Period

Stuckey#3
07-07-2012, 05:01 AM
This is just going to cause a further divide in small market teams vs big market teams. In a couple years when people figure out the Heat and their roster is bloated and drama takes over there locker room a team like the '04 Pistons will come along and straighten everything out. Enjoy your superteams while they last.

SportsFanatic10
07-07-2012, 05:10 AM
It really is. Their franchise makes me sick especially since they had NO fanbase before this **** started. One thing I will say, I can't wait to get back into hockey because I will not waste time watching all of these *******s celebrate.

but you'll waste your time crying about it in multiple threads...gotcha

NYY09
07-07-2012, 05:11 AM
You're right and you're wrong. Ainge (a GM) built the Celtics, while Lebron, Bosh, and Wade made the Heat happen, assist to Riley. No doubt he had to create a lot of magic to make it all work, but the thing that distinguishes the Heat "super team" was that it was the first time players colluded and initiated, rather than a GM pulling it all together by himself, which is how the Celtics came together. It's a huge change and it won't be sustainable. We just need to do the math. If 5-6 "super teams" are created that means that less teams will have elite stars; the top 15-18 players will all be on those 5-6 teams. That leaves the other 24-25 teams fighting it out and overpaying mediocrity (i.e. lower than top 15-18 players) to play for them. We're already seeing it, but all people can see is that small market GMs are retards. smh

Awesome, though I doubt most people will grasp the concept of what you are saying. I tried to make this point the other day, albeit not quite as well as you, and all I got was "you dont know what your talking about, learn some NBA history" crap. I guess people will continue to see blue skies in their little bubble regardless of actualities.

Again, I commend you Ink, maybe your perspective can shine some light and direction to the flock of sheep walking off a cliff.

3ballbomber
07-07-2012, 05:35 AM
I miss the 90's when players and teams were highly competitive. When even good friends became heated enemies on the floor. When individuals wanted to prove they were the best in the league! Just watching the dream team doco where even in practice team mates were trash talking and going @ each other to prove who was the best made me miss the 90's even more.

Todays NBA is wack sauce on weak strands of spaghetti.

LeMarcus
07-07-2012, 05:59 AM
You're saying the level of competition have gone down because players have signed with other teams?

How do you know they don't talk trash on court or during the team USA practices or all star games?

I've watched and have grown up from 90's basketball, sure it's been less aggressive since the NBA made rule changes, but to say the level of competition have gone down is absurd.

Have you not watched any of these series?
Chicago vs Boston ?
Lakers vs Kings?
Lakers vs Blazers?
Miami vs Boston?

Even the clippers and lakers matchups are exciting to watch.

The NBA is entering a different era of super teams against super teams.
How is anyone not excited to see these teams compete against each other?

naps
07-07-2012, 06:20 AM
It really is. Their franchise makes me sick especially since they had NO fanbase before this **** started. One thing I will say, I can't wait to get back into hockey because I will not waste time watching all of these *******s celebrate.

Oh really? You can't wait? Let's see your contribution today on NBA forum:



I care that your organization planted a great SCHEME to get players to come to you team for pennies.

I thought it was genius and it is working out well for you guys.

But Miami, as a fan base, is just atrocious. Main reason.......there are so amny NEW Miami Heat fans that it is sickening. It is also sickening that those die hard Heat fans can't name anyone on the roster besides Wade/LBJ/Bosh. Also, very sickening that there are no Dolphins fans at this point of time because trust me, I see all the forums, not just basketball. I just like pride in all team sports and there has never been pride in any Miami team sport until Lebron James made the decision so stop acting like the miami hear, the miam fanbase has always been there because I can promise you it hasn't.

Link (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=22831039&postcount=557).


Go to the Heat Marcus. You can add to the list of players who couldn't do it without a bunch of all star players. You will also be part of Miami, the worst fairweathered sports franchise town ever.

Link (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=22830970&postcount=89).


Looks like a little baby is having hard time getting some sleep. You can't deal with Bulls sucking and Miami beasting and Miami getting better and better and you start throwing jabs at fans...You have progeria?

Cubby
07-07-2012, 06:32 AM
first of all i rather see lebron on the heat with wade and bosh then on the cavs with mo and jamison. its more enterteining to me as a fan.

but i dont think lebron started it. i think big name players have been joining forces with other players from time. the celtics and lakers have always had big name players join their teams.

It isn't entertaining from an outsider's perspective. I get very easily annoyed by the cockiness those three display. I don't find it entertaining at all to be honest.

HiphopRelated
07-07-2012, 09:56 AM
I miss the 90's when players and teams were highly competitive. When even good friends became heated enemies on the floor. When individuals wanted to prove they were the best in the league! Just watching the dream team doco where even in practice team mates were trash talking and going @ each other to prove who was the best made me miss the 90's even more.

Todays NBA is wack sauce on weak strands of spaghetti.
You miss the 90s because of the parity and competitiveness that had the Bulls winning 6 championships

Prepare to learn how it feels on the other side of the fence

3RDASYSTEM
07-07-2012, 10:16 AM
Ever heard of stacked squads in 80's, or even earlier than that?

But i can understand if you feel you're seeing this in your era you would think it has changed the game when its pretty much all recycled and more its recycled the easier it makes you to notice all the recycled bs(from bad officiating to rigged drafts to rogue ref scandals to superteams being form again to players being blacklisted)...HEAT changed nothing, a older version big 3 was made 3yrs prior in BEANTOWN before HEAT and i want to say a mix of old/youth was formed in big 4 in 2004 LAKERLAND? Did BEANTOWN/2004 LAKERS change landscape forever or bring back tradition? i'd say the latter

BKLYNpigeon
07-07-2012, 10:27 AM
theres been Great teams throughout the history of the NBA... even better then the Miami Heat.

the only thing different wit the Heats Super Team is that they conspired together and all signed up together like a bunch of little girls.

SwatTeam
07-07-2012, 10:56 AM
Look at all the b@#$hes crying! Wah! Wah! Wah! Competitive balance . . . wah wah wah. Basketball is ruined! wah wah wah. Heat were formed by collusion! Celtics were formed by management! wah wah wah. Its been two years, give it a rest. Shove that tampon up your cooters and remember to remove it. I had a patient who left hers up there for 4 months! Talk about yeast infection! A smell you would never imagine! Kinda like what you complainers spew from your mouths.

The NBA just set a final TV ratings record. If the Lakers and Heat meet in the finals or even the Thunder and Heat have a rematch, TV's will explode! Stern will be raking in the dough and you assclowns will still watch, because you need something to hate and you're probably unemployed and its on local tv. Keep watching, keep coming back to message boards and commenting - good or bad - (basically, shows you watch the sport), keep your hate alive! Basketball is alive and well, even better than ever.

SwatTeam
07-07-2012, 11:11 AM
Here's also something to think about when people talk about the demise of basketball. Who comes onto a message board and comments about a sport (most of you guys have more than 100 posts) and then says they aren't going to watch anymore - yet still comment more than ever 2 years after the decision! You idiots realize the only way to stop watching a sport is to stop watching it, right? And then stop commenting about it on message boards, right? Casual fans don't go on NBA message boards and voice frustrations. Only true NBA fans do. If you at all come in here and comment you are most likely really into basketball. I don't see Hockey boards come up on the main boards or even baseball boards as much. So you guys tell me, how this sport has been ruined? You guys hate because it helps you take out the angers and frustrations in your lives. Everyone likes to view sports as good guys and bad guys. The Heat are some bad motherf&*kers! They want not just 1 ring, they want 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 . . . The good guys got sucker punched this year. Lets see what they got in them next year. Regardless, you furry kunts are going to watch.

Chronz
07-07-2012, 11:31 AM
So your argument is that the big3 could have come together anywhere else? Not sure I buy that.

And you can say its different but its a minimal difference, KG still decided to join his buds after they recruited him.

To you. Prior to a month before KG being possibly traded to the Celtics, KG, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce had never, ever had a conversation about all teaming up and running the league...

But of course the reason I'm disagreeing with you is I'm not wearing Heat/Bron can do no wrong vision goggles like you, so take what I say with a grain of salt...

Once again, show me another instance in NBA history where 3 of the Top 15-20 players all decided to join one team, in Free Agency.

Still waiting...
Never with the best player this young, but you dont need any sort of bias goggles to know there is in fact nothing wrong with players taking control of their own destiny and not making the mistakes prior stars did by waiting on negligent ownership. They may have talked about playing together, but lots of players have without it coming to fruition.

KG regrets that it took him so long to find a few stars to hook up with so if there is a difference its that Bron has the gift of foresight.

Chronz
07-07-2012, 11:35 AM
I miss the 90's when players and teams were highly competitive. When even good friends became heated enemies on the floor. When individuals wanted to prove they were the best in the league! Just watching the dream team doco where even in practice team mates were trash talking and going @ each other to prove who was the best made me miss the 90's even more.

Todays NBA is wack sauce on weak strands of spaghetti.
Lol the 90 had 1 super team and thats it. What competitiveness do you speak of?

Dade County
07-07-2012, 11:41 AM
Here's also something to think about when people talk about the demise of basketball. Who comes onto a message board and comments about a sport (most of you guys have more than 100 posts) and then says they aren't going to watch anymore - yet still comment more than ever 2 years after the decision! You idiots realize the only way to stop watching a sport is to stop watching it, right? And then stop commenting about it on message boards, right? Casual fans don't go on NBA message boards and voice frustrations. Only true NBA fans do. If you at all come in here and comment you are most likely really into basketball. I don't see Hockey boards come up on the main boards or even baseball boards as much. So you guys tell me, how this sport has been ruined? You guys hate because it helps you take out the angers and frustrations in your lives. Everyone likes to view sports as good guys and bad guys. The Heat are some bad motherf&*kers! They want not just 1 ring, they want 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 . . . The good guys got sucker punched this year. Lets see what they got in them next year. Regardless, you furry kunts are going to watch.

ummm the HEAT are the good guys...smh

big market teams like the C's, Lakers,bulls are the bad guys

A small market team like teh HEAT won the title everyone should be happy :clap:

ATX
07-07-2012, 11:42 AM
Preach SwatTeam!

Amen

Dade County
07-07-2012, 11:44 AM
You miss the 90s because of the parity and competitiveness that had the Bulls winning 6 championships

Prepare to learn how it feels on the other side of the fence

:clap:

mark1125
07-07-2012, 11:47 AM
Here's also something to think about when people talk about the demise of basketball. Who comes onto a message board and comments about a sport (most of you guys have more than 100 posts) and then says they aren't going to watch anymore - yet still comment more than ever 2 years after the decision! You idiots realize the only way to stop watching a sport is to stop watching it, right? And then stop commenting about it on message boards, right? Casual fans don't go on NBA message boards and voice frustrations. Only true NBA fans do. If you at all come in here and comment you are most likely really into basketball. I don't see Hockey boards come up on the main boards or even baseball boards as much. So you guys tell me, how this sport has been ruined? You guys hate because it helps you take out the angers and frustrations in your lives. Everyone likes to view sports as good guys and bad guys. The Heat are some bad motherf&*kers! They want not just 1 ring, they want 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 . . . The good guys got sucker punched this year. Lets see what they got in them next year. Regardless, you furry kunts are going to watch.

I agree with you 100%. With that said, people who rip other people here for their viewpoints are really quite sad. You may want to check yourself. You just wrote 2 long posts ripping and insulting posters. Do they really bother you that much? Seems somewhat hypocritical to me, but if that gets you feeling like an internet tough guy.......more power to you I suppose.

69centers
07-07-2012, 11:47 AM
Once again, show me another instance in NBA history where 3 of the Top 15-20 players all decided to join one team, in Free Agency.

Still waiting...

03-04: Kobe, Shaq, The Glove, and the Mailman (That's FOUR)

Sixerlover
07-07-2012, 11:54 AM
I miss the 90's when players and teams were highly competitive. When even good friends became heated enemies on the floor. When individuals wanted to prove they were the best in the league! Just watching the dream team doco where even in practice team mates were trash talking and going @ each other to prove who was the best made me miss the 90's even more.

Todays NBA is wack sauce on weak strands of spaghetti.

This makes no sense. You think Lebron and Melo are buddy buddy when they play against each other? How about Lebron and Rose? Or the Heat and Celtics? Are these guys good friends on the court? Hell no! They hate each other, respect each other sure, but they hate each other on the court. Kobe vs Anybody. Rose vs Anybody. Or even Durant and Lebron. In the finals they weren't playing light against one another and not trying to hurt feelings. They were both playing their hearts out against a rival. That hasn't changed.

I really dislike when people say things like this. The evolution of basketball, and the media in general shows that these guys hang out a lot, know each other from a younger age (AAU) and are genuine friends. But they didn't become NBA superstars by not giving 150% everytime they step on the court.

SwatTeam
07-07-2012, 11:55 AM
I agree with you 100%. With that said, people who rip other people here for their viewpoints are really quite sad. You may want to check yourself. You just wrote 2 long posts ripping and insulting posters. Do they really bother you that much? Seems somewhat hypocritical to me, but if that gets you feeling like an internet tough guy.......more power to you I suppose.

Yes, more power to me! As some power hungry douche once said: "In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women."

Someone insert that photo of the "oh no, we got an internet tough guy over here".

SwatTeam
07-07-2012, 11:59 AM
Also we have different interpretations of the phrase: "internet tough guy." An internet tough guy is one who wants to start a fight or brags about he is some big dude and fights people in real life, etc. etc. etc. I'm not so much an internet tough guy as much as an internet douche. I swear like a sailor and I insult people when they're obviously of a less intellectual caliber person. I'm sorry but people who play nice with stupid people are the same ones who let stupid people run countries.

TopsyTurvy
07-07-2012, 12:00 PM
The Heat didn't do anything besides support three superstars, the real paradigm shift came when Bosh and James agreed to joint he Heat several months before free agency. Players took over the league at that point and now everyone from star to scrub will pay much more attention to free agency.

TEXASTITAN
07-07-2012, 12:04 PM
The creation of "super" teams isn't good for the NBA as a whole. When only a few teams are able to lock up all of the best talent thereby watering down the majority of the teams in a sport that already lags behind the NFL & MLB. Teams were talking contraction before this trend began and I believe this trend will kill the NBA in the next 2 decades if this continues because the NBA brand doesn't have enough "star" level talent to go around.

X12Celtics3
07-07-2012, 12:06 PM
The Heat aren't really to blame for anything. Any team in the league would love to attract as many superstars as they can.

The issue is the NBA itself. The soft cap is pretty much useless and players have too much control, as evidenced by Lebron/Bosh a few years ago and what Dwight Howard is doing now.

HenchMen
07-07-2012, 12:06 PM
it isn't too out of the ordinary.

Boston had a super team when they won. and people were on their case as well.

Sixerlover
07-07-2012, 12:11 PM
The creation of "super" teams isn't good for the NBA as a whole. When only a few teams are able to lock up all of the best talent thereby watering down the majority of the teams in a sport that already lags behind the NFL & MLB. Teams were talking contraction before this trend began and I believe this trend will kill the NBA in the next 2 decades if this continues because the NBA brand doesn't have enough "star" level talent to go around.

Since the beginning of time there was never enough star level talent to go around in the NBA. That's the nature of the game. The only parody decade was the 70s, and that was seen as the dark ages of the league. Fans really don't want parody. They just act like they do.

I mean the glory days of the 80's had the lakers in the finals what 8 times? And the Bulls in the 90s won 60% of those titles. Not much parody. Hell people say the 2000's was a bad era of basketball, and we saw more parody there then we did in the 90's. The NBA is a star driven league, has always been. There just isn't a market for 20 teams that could win a title in any given year, fans would much rather see 5 heavyweights battle it out during the regular season / playoffs.

X12Celtics3
07-07-2012, 12:15 PM
Since the beginning of time there was never enough star level talent to go around in the NBA. That's the nature of the game.

The presence of super teams makes that problem much, much worse though. Bottom feeder teams suck year in and year out, waiting to finally get their superstar... and then the star leaves as soon as he can to go join the best teams in the league. Its understandable (who wants to play on a crappy team?), but the league needs a more strict salary cap and some sort of franchise tag to prevent it.

SwatTeam
07-07-2012, 12:24 PM
The creation of "super" teams isn't good for the NBA as a whole. When only a few teams are able to lock up all of the best talent thereby watering down the majority of the teams in a sport that already lags behind the NFL & MLB. Teams were talking contraction before this trend began and I believe this trend will kill the NBA in the next 2 decades if this continues because the NBA brand doesn't have enough "star" level talent to go around.

If it takes the NBA 20 years to die, then I'll deal with it then. Truth is the new luxury tax doesn't set in until next year. Then we'll see what happens to all this competitive balance talk. That will be a huge factor in where the NBA is heading. Its why Lin may be heading to Houston rather than being matched by New York.

However, fact is, Lin isn't worth that much money imo. Sure, it stopped New York from possibly keeping Lin but the Rockets just signed a guy who may never be an all-star for 30 million to c*(kblock the knicks. Houston is taking a gamble on a kid they hope pans out. If he doesn't, then Houston is loaded with the contract for 4 years and limited in free agency movement with the new luxury tax setting in next year. If Lin can't win then Houston as a small market team can be potentially restricted. Here lies the biggest issue: Small market teams must be very judicious with how they spend their money vs big market teams or else they can still be stuck with a bad contract for half a decade. Blame it on New York and LA being cooler places to live than Houston.

TopsyTurvy
07-07-2012, 12:42 PM
The creation of "super" teams isn't good for the NBA as a whole. When only a few teams are able to lock up all of the best talent thereby watering down the majority of the teams in a sport that already lags behind the NFL & MLB. Teams were talking contraction before this trend began and I believe this trend will kill the NBA in the next 2 decades if this continues because the NBA brand doesn't have enough "star" level talent to go around.

Revenue sharing fixed the possibility of contraction and super-teams equate to super-ratings. I don't see your point at all.

Cromedome
07-07-2012, 12:51 PM
The internet geeks have spoken....but that still doesn't change the fact that the Miami Heat and Lebron James have ruined basketball.

whitemamba33
07-07-2012, 12:52 PM
Boston did it before Miami, and they did it better. They won their 'ship in their first year together.

KnickaBocka.44
07-07-2012, 01:05 PM
If it takes the NBA 20 years to die, then I'll deal with it then. Truth is the new luxury tax doesn't set in until next year. Then we'll see what happens to all this competitive balance talk. That will be a huge factor in where the NBA is heading. Its why Lin may be heading to Houston rather than being matched by New York.

However, fact is, Lin isn't worth that much money imo. Sure, it stopped New York from possibly keeping Lin but the Rockets just signed a guy who may never be an all-star for 30 million to c*(kblock the knicks. Houston is taking a gamble on a kid they hope pans out. If he doesn't, then Houston is loaded with the contract for 4 years and limited in free agency movement with the new luxury tax setting in next year. If Lin can't win then Houston as a small market team can be potentially restricted. Here lies the biggest issue: Small market teams must be very judicious with how they spend their money vs big market teams or else they can still be stuck with a bad contract for half a decade. Blame it on New York and LA being cooler places to live than Houston.



You don't actually believe that, do you?

TeamSeattle
07-07-2012, 01:16 PM
Since the beginning of time there was never enough star level talent to go around in the NBA. That's the nature of the game. The only parody decade was the 70s, and that was seen as the dark ages of the league. Fans really don't want parody. They just act like they do.

I mean the glory days of the 80's had the lakers in the finals what 8 times? And the Bulls in the 90s won 60% of those titles. Not much parody. Hell people say the 2000's was a bad era of basketball, and we saw more parody there then we did in the 90's. The NBA is a star driven league, has always been. There just isn't a market for 20 teams that could win a title in any given year, fans would much rather see 5 heavyweights battle it out during the regular season / playoffs.

I'd like to see teams like Minny, Portland, Phoenix, etc have a chance to win the finals as well. It would keep the nba alive and keep it interesting. In the NFL you never know who will win the super bowl and that is why they bring in more revenue than the nba. I'm telll ya this top heavy league we have now is going to hurt us in the future.

Sixerlover
07-07-2012, 01:24 PM
I'd like to see teams like Minny, Portland, Phoenix, etc have a chance to win the finals as well. It would keep the nba alive and keep it interesting. In the NFL you never know who will win the super bowl and that is why they bring in more revenue than the nba. I'm telll ya this top heavy league we have now is going to hurt us in the future.

In theory it sounds good, but the NBA's revenue has skyrocketed these past few years, and have some of the most watched games in the history of the league. The league is interesting to the masses.

Maybe to the dedicated NBA fan that loves basketball so much we post on websites about it (all of us :p) it would be nice to have 15-20 teams with a chance to win a title at the beginning of the season. But to advertisers and casual fans they want Miami vs Chicago, Miami vs OKC, Chicago vs LA, OKC vs Boston and the revenue that comes with titans fighting it out.

iamsteel
07-07-2012, 01:34 PM
I like to see players sacrifice their stats to be on a winning team. Miami players didn't have GMs that put it together enough, so they took it into their own hands, which they had every right to. They still have to play effectively together (unlike the Knicks last year). But I see nothing wrong with any of these teams. My Wolves team held their own against all these "big" teams this year most games, and teams like NO held their own against us. Just take some of these past USA basketball teams for an example. You can have Lebron, pierce, and other great players and still lose, like we did. It's a matter of getting pieces that fit.

Jint.
07-07-2012, 01:36 PM
dam super friends :mad:

thekmp211
07-07-2012, 01:40 PM
lmao watered-down competition.

we have a team of 23 year olds ready to dominate the WC for a decade, one filled with tons of past and present HoF players outside of OKC. an 8 seed thumped a 1 seed AGAIN this year (no rose, but still). the "super" heat couldn't even secure a 1 seed in the EC.

for the first time in a decade we are seeing the majority of teams draft smart, re-sign smart and for the most part trade smart.

do you really think that this years bobcats team was the least talented in the HISTORY of the NBA? i don't.

i can think of several bulls rosters from the early 2000's, several knicks rosters from the same period.

worse than this vancouver team? http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/VAN/1997.html

how about these barn-burning mavericks pre-kidd, nash, dirk ect?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/1993.html

and please don't throw W-L records back. i'm talking talent. skill. the league is trending up, has been and will continue to so long as we don't get crazy with expansion teams, foreign players and huge "athletic" 7 footers with no actual skills again.

don't get me wrong i'm as bummed about ray jumping ship as anyone. but he slipped last year, healthy or not. the heat were raining threes in the playoffs this year w/o him. another great option, yes, but lets not overblow the addition as the end of basketball just because of the name ray allen.

with that said, it doesn't make me happy. but when will we stop bashing players for wanting to go to established, competitive and professional franchises before they retire. is steve nash an evil soul now?

mikealike305
07-07-2012, 02:01 PM
You guys do realize that over a 12 period the celtics won 10 championships and since 1950 (or the last 64 years) 39 championships were won between 3 teams right?

whitemamba33
07-07-2012, 04:38 PM
I like Jordan's take on it the best:

"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry (Bird), called up Magic (Johnson) and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,'" Jordan said on Sunday. "But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

It really does a great job at describing two very different mindsets. One is ultra-competitive and wants to beat the best, the other is less competitive and wants to play with the best. If I'm left to decide which one I respect more, I think the choice is an easy one.

fishfan79
07-07-2012, 05:06 PM
Could argue the lakers in the 80s, the Sixers in the Early 80s, etc etc. Always been super teams in the NBA, it is part of the league structure.

JasonJohnHorn
07-07-2012, 05:40 PM
Jennings and Wall don't deserved to be mentioned in the same sentence as Love.

ink
07-07-2012, 07:53 PM
Could argue the lakers in the 80s, the Sixers in the Early 80s, etc etc. Always been super teams in the NBA, it is part of the league structure.

Seems that people still misunderstand the problem. Yes there have been "stacked teams" before, but this is the first time players totally colluded to create one. The reason it has been accepted by most basketball fans is that they are fans of the players and GENERALLY idolize whatever they want to do. Few really think highly of management or league admin types, so the average fan is going to sympathize with the colluding athletes. What your favourite player wants is what you want, and people buy the rationale the colluding stars try to sell. But like the Jordan quote posted earlier in the thread said, previous generations of elite players would never turn around and collude to play WITH their competitors. They wouldn't think of it because it went completely against their values as competitors. It very rarely happened. And when it did, as in the case of Shaq, it happened when he was a free agent and was grabbed by the Lakers. You could probably argue that that was a watershed moment in the league because it definitely had an impact everywhere. What Bosh and Lebron did, though, was much deeper than that: they were the first to plan it themselves and then find the team that would satisfy their wishes. Previous to that it was always the franchise's initiative, not the athlete's. "Superstar" players in the driver's seat is now epidemic. Some love it, others think it cheapens the league.

ink
07-07-2012, 07:57 PM
I like Jordan's take on it the best:

"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry (Bird), called up Magic (Johnson) and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,'" Jordan said on Sunday. "But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

It really does a great job at describing two very different mindsets. One is ultra-competitive and wants to beat the best, the other is less competitive and wants to play with the best. If I'm left to decide which one I respect more, I think the choice is an easy one.

Totally agree with you. Great post. Great quote.

AllBall
07-07-2012, 10:26 PM
I like Jordan's take on it the best:

"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry (Bird), called up Magic (Johnson) and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,'" Jordan said on Sunday. "But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

It really does a great job at describing two very different mindsets. One is ultra-competitive and wants to beat the best, the other is less competitive and wants to play with the best. If I'm left to decide which one I respect more, I think the choice is an easy one.

Well, everyone is now teaming up to beat the Heat who are the best. So I guess, balance is restored. :rolleyes:

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 10:27 PM
I like Jordan's take on it the best:

"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry (Bird), called up Magic (Johnson) and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,'" Jordan said on Sunday. "But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

It really does a great job at describing two very different mindsets. One is ultra-competitive and wants to beat the best, the other is less competitive and wants to play with the best. If I'm left to decide which one I respect more, I think the choice is an easy one.
Looks like kobe needs nash...kobe called nash...

whitemamba33
07-07-2012, 10:37 PM
Looks like kobe needs nash...kobe called nash...

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8132773/steve-nash-called-kobe-bryant-agreeing-sign-trade-deal-los-angeles-lakers

According to Nash himself, he was the one that called Kobe.


Regardless, at this age I wouldn't consider Nash as a focal point of any successful team by himself. This isn't Jordan recruiting Bird or Magic. And the trade was initiated by the teams, not the players. Nash didn't call Kobe an say "yo, we should team up". The framework for the trade was put into pace by the two teams, and then Nash called to ask Kobe if they could coexist - which is perfectly reasonable considering their history.

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 10:38 PM
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8132773/steve-nash-called-kobe-bryant-agreeing-sign-trade-deal-los-angeles-lakers

According to Nash himself, he was the one that called Kobe.


Regardless, at this age I wouldn't consider Nash as a focal point of any successful team by himself. This isn't Jordan recruiting Bird or Magic. And the trade was initiated by the teams, not the players.

lmao...bottom line is kobe needs another star...

AllBall
07-07-2012, 10:41 PM
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8132773/steve-nash-called-kobe-bryant-agreeing-sign-trade-deal-los-angeles-lakers

According to Nash himself, he was the one that called Kobe.


Regardless, at this age I wouldn't consider Nash as a focal point of any successful team by himself. This isn't Jordan recruiting Bird or Magic. And the trade was initiated by the teams, not the players.

So I suppose Chandler/Melo/Amare and CP3/Griffin/Jordan are committing blasphemy too? Right? Right? :rolleyes:

ink
07-07-2012, 10:44 PM
Looks like kobe needs nash...kobe called nash...

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8132773/steve-nash-called-kobe-bryant-agreeing-sign-trade-deal-los-angeles-lakers

According to Nash himself, he was the one that called Kobe.


Regardless, at this age I wouldn't consider Nash as a focal point of any successful team by himself. This isn't Jordan recruiting Bird or Magic. And the trade was initiated by the teams, not the players. Nash didn't call Kobe an say "yo, we should team up". The framework for the trade was put into pace by the two teams, and then Nash called to ask Kobe if they could coexist - which is perfectly reasonable considering their history.

Someone who gets it. Another good post.

whitemamba33
07-07-2012, 10:51 PM
So I suppose Chandler/Melo/Amare and CP3/Griffin/Jordan are committing blasphemy too? Right? Right? :rolleyes:

Are you looking for me to tell you what's blasphemy and what's not?

At the end of the day, what matters most is whether or not YOU can respect a player for the choices they've made.

For me, if a player says he's going to win a championship with one specific team and then leaves because it's too hard - it's difficult for me to respect that.

ryang
07-07-2012, 10:52 PM
who cares?? Oh you guys.. hey if i can call 2 females and they dont look that great and have a gag reflex or i can call 2 super models who have the ability to take it all in (deep throat) guess who I am calling...

whitemamba33
07-07-2012, 10:57 PM
who cares?? Oh you guys.. hey if i can call 2 females and they dont look that great and have a gag reflex or i can call 2 super models who have the ability to take it all in (deep throat) guess who I am calling...

...sounds like you should probably call your doctor.

bearadonisdna
07-07-2012, 10:58 PM
The miami heat had very little to do with all these players changing teams.
Its more like the 08' olympic team that decided they would all change teams.

bearadonisdna
07-07-2012, 10:59 PM
I guess i forgot how earth shattering a shortened season championship is.

TeamSeattle
07-07-2012, 11:00 PM
who cares?? Oh you guys.. hey if i can call 2 females and they dont look that great and have a gag reflex or i can call 2 super models who have the ability to take it all in (deep throat) guess who I am calling...

Yea but the supermodels will only do it for something in return and charge you an arm and a leg. Even if you did get them to do it they won't do it on a constant basis and will use you to no end just for a quick fix. The ugly ducklings are the better ones in the longrun because they'll always be there for ya.

whitemamba33
07-07-2012, 11:01 PM
lmao...bottom line is kobe needs another star...

Sooo...the Lakers made a trade and that is somehow a knock on Kobe?

It's ok...I've heard my fair share of irraional Kobe hate, so this is nothing new.

But at least do your homework next time. "LMAO" is not a very effective way of saying "Wow, I didn't know that Nash called Kobe, thanks for the info".

ryang
07-07-2012, 11:02 PM
Yea but the supermodels will only do it for something in return and charge you an arm and a leg. Even if you did get them to do it they won't do it on a constant basis and will use you to no end just for a quick fix. The ugly ducklings are the better ones in the longrun because they'll always be there for ya.

lmao

ryang
07-07-2012, 11:03 PM
...sounds like you should probably call your doctor.

try again.. that was weak...

whitemamba33
07-07-2012, 11:06 PM
try again.. that was weak...

I would, but I'm about to watch Silva lay the smack down.

Gritz
07-07-2012, 11:10 PM
It's amazing how I change PSD

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 11:12 PM
Sooo...the Lakers made a trade and that is somehow a knock on Kobe?

It's ok...I've heard my fair share of irraional Kobe hate, so this is nothing new.

But at least do your homework next time. "LMAO" is not a very effective way of saying "Wow, I didn't know that Nash called Kobe, thanks for the info".

If you dont think kobe wanted and recruited nash then you are in denial

ink
07-07-2012, 11:16 PM
The miami heat had very little to do with all these players changing teams.
Its more like the 08' olympic team that decided they would all change teams.

Finally, someone else gets that. It's so obvious but somehow people ignore this. Imagine what Jerry Colangelo thinks about the negative influence the Beijing Olympic team had on the NBA.

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 11:17 PM
Finally, someone else gets that. It's so obvious but somehow people ignore this. Imagine what Jerry Colangelo thinks about the negative influence the Beijing Olympic team had on the NBA.

I think it was inevitable. Between boston trading for their guys, and all the youngins that play aau...times are changing.

whitemamba33
07-07-2012, 11:27 PM
If you dont think kobe wanted and recruited nash then you are in denial

So I'm just supposed to accept your premise despite proof otherwise? Nash himself said he called Kobe, so I have no reason to believe otherwise. The quote I posted dealt with Jordan saying he wouldn't call these guys up and organize. That's not what happened. The team put the trade in place, and then the players decided they could coexist.

The Jordan quote I posted (which was the reason why I posted) doesn't apply in this situation.

If a similar thing had happened in Miami, I wouldn't have expected Wade to say "hell no, I wan't to play with them!"

So far the only information you've come at me with has been incorrect. The "If you don't believe this then you are in denial" fallacy isn't going to play out with me.

bearadonisdna
07-07-2012, 11:28 PM
I think it was inevitable. Between boston trading for their guys, and all the youngins that play aau...times are changing.

What does AAU have to do with anything?

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 11:34 PM
So I'm just supposed to accept your premise despite proof otherwise? Nash himself said he called Kobe, so I have no reason to believe otherwise. The quote I posted dealt with Jordan saying he wouldn't call these guys up and organize. That's not what happened. The team put the trade in place, and then the players decided they could coexist.

The Jordan quote I posted (which was the reason why I posted) doesn't apply in this situation.

If a similar thing had happened in Miami, I wouldn't have expected Wade to say "hell no, I wan't to play with them!"

So far the only information you've come at me with has been incorrect. The "If you don't believe this then you are in denial" fallacy isn't going to play out with me.http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow/la-sp-ln-steve-nash-radio-interview-20120705,0,3310158.story

Nash said Bryant had called to recruit him, an important selling point. The players discussed how Nash could be the effective ballhandler the Lakers had lacked in recent years and ways in which he could incorporate more pick-and-roll plays into the Lakersí offense.
good effort tho


What does AAU have to do with anything?

Guys playing with their friends...

bearadonisdna
07-07-2012, 11:35 PM
Edit.

bucketss
07-07-2012, 11:35 PM
i don't know if kobe indeed called him or not but why do people act like thats a negative for kobe? looks like he put his ego aside for once.

bearadonisdna
07-07-2012, 11:36 PM
So the NBA players are following the model set by HIgh schoolers?

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 11:48 PM
i don't know if kobe indeed called him or not but why do people act like thats a negative for kobe? looks like he put his ego aside for once.

its not a negative. i am pointing it out to the lakers fan that is trying to say miami helped start a bad trend and that jordan would never want another star playing with him. I just find it ironic that a lakers fan would try and make that argument.

cutiepie80
07-07-2012, 11:55 PM
Again, I congratulate true Miami Heat fans. They have done something that has never been done. They have built an evil empite in the NBA and that is very hard to do. Allen leaving the Celtcis after KG just signed was the first sign that all overage players with not much time left will go to Miami. Battier/Howard/Miller.......it will continue and I really can't hate on what the Heat did. I WILL always hate D Wade though.

beasted86
07-08-2012, 12:02 AM
Again, I congratulate true Miami Heat fans. They have done something that has never been done. They have built an evil empite in the NBA and that is very hard to do. Allen leaving the Celtcis after KG just signed was the first sign that all overage players with not much time left will go to Miami. Battier/Howard/Miller.......it will continue and I really can't hate on what the Heat did. I WILL always hate D Wade though.

You mad? :mad:

Chronz
07-08-2012, 12:12 AM
Are you looking for me to tell you what's blasphemy and what's not?

At the end of the day, what matters most is whether or not YOU can respect a player for the choices they've made.

For me, if a player says he's going to win a championship with one specific team and then leaves because it's too hard - it's difficult for me to respect that.
Of course Bron says hes trying to deliver a title to Cleveland, what else would you expect him to say?

Do you not respect Kobe? Even for wanting to get traded to Chicago but unwilling to go unless Deng was still on the team. This after LA had already delivered him several titles? How about when he forced his way to LA before even being drafted.

How about when Magic refused to enter the league unless LA won the first overall pick so he could play with Kareem and the better situation aka bigger market.

Chronz
07-08-2012, 12:13 AM
The miami heat had very little to do with all these players changing teams.
Its more like the 08' olympic team that decided they would all change teams.
Umm who else had the cap space to make the offers they did? Pretty sure they couldnt join up if Miami couldnt give them all huge deals.

justinnum1
07-08-2012, 12:14 AM
Of course Bron says hes trying to deliver a title to Cleveland, what else would you expect him to say?

Do you not respect Kobe? Even for wanting to get traded to Chicago but unwilling to go unless Deng was still on the team. This after LA had already delivered him several titles? How about when he forced his way to LA before even being drafted.

How about when Magic refused to enter the league unless LA won the first overall pick so he could play with Kareem and the better situation aka bigger market.

Probably to young to know about when magic played.

bearadonisdna
07-08-2012, 12:17 AM
Man that Ray Allen thread got closed. But for the record i wasnt trolling.
All i did was make a play on the name of a fictional character and guys starting trolling nba players and things snowballed.

ink
07-08-2012, 01:17 AM
Of course Bron says hes trying to deliver a title to Cleveland, what else would you expect him to say?

Do you not respect Kobe? Even for wanting to get traded to Chicago but unwilling to go unless Deng was still on the team. This after LA had already delivered him several titles? How about when he forced his way to LA before even being drafted.

How about when Magic refused to enter the league unless LA won the first overall pick so he could play with Kareem and the better situation aka bigger market.

:pity:

I guess you'll never get it. There is no statistic to help you understand how management-led moves are different than athlete-led moves. Problem is, as much as people idolize players, they aren't equipped (yet) to manage teams or the league's business affairs. That's the fail.

whitemamba33
07-08-2012, 01:19 AM
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow/la-sp-ln-steve-nash-radio-interview-20120705,0,3310158.story

good effort tho



Guys playing with their friends...

Hmm..it's an actual quote from Nash himself VS "NASH SAID..."

I think i'll go with the actual quote.

I'm not even going to throw out the fake "good effort"...bc you really need more effort.

Chronz
07-08-2012, 01:24 AM
:pity:

I guess you'll never get it. There is no statistic to help you understand how management-led moves are different than athlete-led moves. Problem is, as much as people idolize players, they aren't equipped (yet) to manage teams or the league's business affairs. That's the fail.

I dont think you understand that the 2 often go hand in hand.

Example; KG refusing to be traded to a team he didnt want to play for, but allowing it once they made another move. Hes under contract and still deciding where he should play.

whitemamba33
07-08-2012, 01:43 AM
Of course Bron says hes trying to deliver a title to Cleveland, what else would you expect him to say?

Do you not respect Kobe? Even for wanting to get traded to Chicago but unwilling to go unless Deng was still on the team. This after LA had already delivered him several titles? How about when he forced his way to LA before even being drafted.

How about when Magic refused to enter the league unless LA won the first overall pick so he could play with Kareem and the better situation aka bigger market.

I expect him not to say it if he doesn't mean it - if he's just going to bail out when things get hard. Nobody is forcing him to say anything, so I'm not sure where the "of course" comes in.

The following outlines my feelings about the Charlotte/LA draft day trade"

"The deal was actually done a day ahead of time, and it was Vlade for a player to be named," said Bill Branch, the Hornets' head scout at the time who still operates out of Charlotte as a scout for the Seattle-now-Oklahoma City Sonics. "If I remember right, they didn't even tell us who they wanted us to pick until about five minutes before the pick was made. So it was never a matter of us actually drafting Kobe."

"When you look back at it, when we made that trade, here was a 17-year-old kid who had played in high school," said Bob Bass, the Hornets' executive vice president of basketball operations at the time. "Twelve other teams passed on him. We made a decision to win now and not later. We had Dave Cowens as our first-year coach, and I wanted to give him a chance to win. I knew if we got Divac in here, we'd win. I didn't feel the same about Bryant. Without Divac, I thought we might have won 25 games."

I don't respect Kobe or Magic on a personal level.

I can understand Magic's desire to play in a big market, but I don't respect his decision to demand to play with another star. Sorry, does this go against your attempt to use past Laker's history against a Lakers fan?

I have no problem with Kobe demanding a trade - he's a competitor and he wanted to compete, and he wasn't given a team that could (certainly not the #1 team in the regular season). Deng is FAR from a superstar, so this is nowhere near my original Jordan-Magic-Bird point. Regardless, I'd like to see a quote from Kobe himself that says he'd only go to Chicago if Deng is there, because I don't remember seeing it.

Dade County
07-08-2012, 01:57 AM
Again, I congratulate true Miami Heat fans. They have done something that has never been done. They have built an evil empite in the NBA and that is very hard to do. Allen leaving the Celtcis after KG just signed was the first sign that all overage players with not much time left will go to Miami. Battier/Howard/Miller.......it will continue and I really can't hate on what the Heat did. I WILL always hate D Wade though.

lol...why?

D Wade is going to prove all the haters wrong again next season... He had a bad knee through out the playoffs and he still played solid.

bearadonisdna
07-08-2012, 02:04 AM
If by change the nba,
you mean be the 1st NBA team to not pay rent for a decade,
Then Congrats

JordansBulls
07-08-2012, 09:21 AM
imagine how teams felt during jordans prime.

There was never more than 2 allstars on Jordan's teams including himself.

The superteam that was created was Houston in 1997 when they added Barkley to go along with Drexler and Hakeem.

thekmp211
07-08-2012, 10:20 AM
Finally, someone else gets that. It's so obvious but somehow people ignore this. Imagine what Jerry Colangelo thinks about the negative influence the Beijing Olympic team had on the NBA.

is everything is just a conspiracy theory against the raptors to you?

colangelo is not a good gm. that isn't the olympic teams fault. or should david kahn be running the show for team USA instead of him? and is steve nash just another NBA player of inferior character because he jumped ship to a big market team loaded with talent?

or is it different because he's white and canadian?

thekmp211
07-08-2012, 10:22 AM
There was never more than 2 allstars on Jordan's teams including himself.

The superteam that was created was Houston in 1997 when they added Barkley to go along with Drexler and Hakeem.

again please no superlatives. jamaal magloire was an all-star. it has no bearing on this discussion.
re: the rockets, drexler was so far removed from his prime at that point that i have a hard time taking that seriously, and again they got it done when jordan was off catching fly balls.

we are talking about talent disparity and competitive sports leagues. my point was that jordan was so DAMN good, that no one could team up and beat him and the bulls.

and let's not disparage scotty pippen by just referring to him as "an all star". c'mon jb. two HoF players including the GOAT, arguably the best coach ever, perfect role players. not a super team? but lebron, wade, dinosaur, kid spo and shane battier are?

JWO35
07-08-2012, 10:32 AM
This isn't something new...the Lakers did this with Malone & Payton in 2003...this is just the first time a group of guys(of their caliber) teamed up while in their prime.

It's just a fad, a few years down these "superteams" worst nightmare the luxury tax will pay them a visit

Radio Rakeem
07-08-2012, 11:00 AM
is everything is just a conspiracy theory against the raptors to you?

colangelo is not a good gm. that isn't the olympic teams fault. or should david kahn be running the show for team USA instead of him? and is steve nash just another NBA player of inferior character because he jumped ship to a big market team loaded with talent?

or is it different because he's white and canadian?

......BRYAN Colangelo is the GM of the Raptors, not Jerry....

:pity:

SportsNY
07-08-2012, 11:13 AM
It's sad, but they really did.

NYY 26 to 7
07-08-2012, 11:24 AM
Everyone bashing the OP but even with historical perspective it is true. Boston somewhat started it but that was guys getting toward the end of their days which has happened many times before (remeber the rockets with Pippen, Drexler, Barkley) it just didn't work. Super teams have existed but for the most part were built from the draft w complimentary pieces added (Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Pistons). It is a new thing for guys to go team up during their prime and it is changing the game for sure.

NYY 26 to 7
07-08-2012, 11:28 AM
There was never more than 2 allstars on Jordan's teams including himself.

The superteam that was created was Houston in 1997 when they added Barkley to go along with Drexler and Hakeem.

And your boy Pippen that same year after Jordan retired.But they were all old on Houston so not the same as Miami.

Glen20
07-08-2012, 11:30 AM
If by change the nba,
you mean be the 1st NBA team to not pay rent for a decade,
Then Congrats

i dont even know how they avoid it

Cfrey
07-08-2012, 11:37 AM
how is this thread still open? the OP has zero idea of what he is talking about..

first of all it was bostons big three and second of all there have been teams like this throughout the history of the game.... but just because we are living in the moment right now you all seem to forget

StinkEye
07-08-2012, 11:42 AM
the HEAT changed nothing. They just did what's been done before, except they did it better.

ink
07-08-2012, 12:06 PM
I dont think you understand that the 2 often go hand in hand.

Example; KG refusing to be traded to a team he didnt want to play for, but allowing it once they made another move. Hes under contract and still deciding where he should play.

Obviously they do quite often, and historically that has always been the case, but this is different. No point in going in circles any longer. I find that you and others on this point think like happy consumers and there's no changing that.

Glen20
07-08-2012, 12:07 PM
the HEAT changed nothing. They just did what's been done before, except they did it better.

i guess the question is how much of it is riley and how much of it is wade

StinkEye
07-08-2012, 12:10 PM
i guess the question is how much of it is riley and how much of it is wade

I think the real question is who cares?

ink
07-08-2012, 12:11 PM
is everything is just a conspiracy theory against the raptors to you?

colangelo is not a good gm. that isn't the olympic teams fault. or should david kahn be running the show for team USA instead of him? and is steve nash just another NBA player of inferior character because he jumped ship to a big market team loaded with talent?

or is it different because he's white and canadian?

That is a hilarious strawman if I ever read one. This actually has zero to do with the Raptors. I really couldn't care less about this supposed "big market/small market" stuff. I only care about watching teams develop talent from the draft stage. It's irrelevant what team we're talking about. I don't even care if it's the Heat that started everything. The only thing that matters to me is the health of the game itself. And I have no idea which Colangelo you think you're talking about because you seem to have it confused. It would be interesting if you're going to post something aimed at me that you get your facts correct.

For the record, I've already posted about Nash going to LA and this falls far more into the traditional category of free agency where teams court players not the other way around, though I do think it's part of the epidemic of joining forces that will ultimately harm the league. For their part, many of us were split on whether we thought Nash joining the Raptors would even be a good thing. Many are quite happy that it has turned out the way it has. Nash has paid his dues in PHX, gave everything to that team in playoffs for years, and fits well with a veteran group like the Lakers have. He has said that winning a championship is not EVERYTHING for him, but obviously when he was courted by the Lakers, the temptation was too great to turn down. Like I've said, it's NBA culture and he followed the rest in joining a rival team. The main point is that it won't be sustainable for all "superstars" to do this. And in some cases, it creates some really butt ugly basketball. I loved what Ainge did in assembling the Celtics, and still don't care for the ISO ball approach of the Heat. Obviously a lot of people prefer highlight ball over the solid, balanced game of great teams like the Spurs and Celtics.

Glen20
07-08-2012, 12:14 PM
That is a hilarious strawman if I ever read one. This actually has zero to do with the Raptors. I really couldn't care less about this supposed "big market/small market" stuff. I only care about watching teams develop talent from the draft stage. It's irrelevant what team we're talking about. I don't even care if it's the Heat that started everything. The only thing that matters to me is the health of the game itself. And I have no idea which Colangelo you think you're talking about because you seem to have it confused. It would be interesting if you're going to post something aimed at me that you get your facts correct.

why does it bother you so much that a team built itself through Free agency?
if you dont like how the NBA works, why do you continue to agitate yourself by following it as much as you maybe doing so?
at the end of the day, if you dont like something and you cant change it, just walk away

thekmp211
07-08-2012, 12:18 PM
why does it bother you so much that a team built itself through Free agency?
if you dont like how the NBA works, why do you continue to agitate yourself by following it as much as you maybe doing so?
at the end of the day, if you dont like something and you cant change it, just walk away

thank you

thekmp211
07-08-2012, 12:20 PM
That is a hilarious strawman if I ever read one. This actually has zero to do with the Raptors. I really couldn't care less about this supposed "big market/small market" stuff. I only care about watching teams develop talent from the draft stage. It's irrelevant what team we're talking about. I don't even care if it's the Heat that started everything. The only thing that matters to me is the health of the game itself. And I have no idea which Colangelo you think you're talking about because you seem to have it confused. It would be interesting if you're going to post something aimed at me that you get your facts correct.

For the record, I've already posted about Nash going to LA and this falls far more into the traditional category of free agency where teams court players not the other way around, though I do think it's part of the epidemic of joining forces that will ultimately harm the league. For their part, many of us were split on whether we thought Nash joining the Raptors would even be a good thing. Many are quite happy that it has turned out the way it has. Nash has paid his dues in PHX, gave everything to that team in playoffs for years, and fits well with a veteran group like the Lakers have. He has said that winning a championship is not EVERYTHING for him, but obviously when he was courted by the Lakers, the temptation was too great to turn down. Like I've said, it's NBA culture and he followed the rest in joining a rival team. The main point is that it won't be sustainable for all "superstars" to do this. And in some cases, it creates some really butt ugly basketball. I loved what Ainge did in assembling the Celtics, and still don't care for the ISO ball approach of the Heat. Obviously a lot of people prefer highlight ball over the solid, balanced game of great teams like the Spurs and Celtics.

couldn't care less so you posted a wall. whatever man. i've made my point with you time and time and time and time again.

and you can't even get the contract straight but have the nerve to tell me to get my facts straight? :clap:

if you don't like the nba, don't watch. it ain't perfect but neither is any other sports league.

Glen20
07-08-2012, 12:22 PM
couldn't care less so you posted a wall. whatever man. i've made my point with you time and time and time and time again.

and you can't even get the contract straight but have the nerve to tell me to get my facts straight? :clap:

if you don't like the nba, don't watch. it ain't perfect but neither is any other sports league.

i think the key is to take a break from it every now and then, during the lulls of the regular season (i.e january)

ink
07-08-2012, 12:23 PM
why does it bother you so much that a team built itself through Free agency?
if you dont like how the NBA works, why do you continue to agitate yourself by following it as much as you maybe doing so?
at the end of the day, if you dont like something and you cant change it, just walk away

lol, I'm obviously not alone, and it's a thread about the topic. What, should posters only post things like "Kobe sucks" on PSD? :laugh2: And this kind of change is like a pendulum, if it swings one way it will also ultimately swing back. You're assuming this is the way the league will always be run in saying that someone should walk away just because they see a change for the worse in the league. If people were saying "there aren't enough ISO plays any more" should we give the lame PSD line "don't watch" to them? Or do they have a right to post their opinion? Obviously it's the latter.

ink
07-08-2012, 12:25 PM
couldn't care less so you posted a wall. whatever man. i've made my point with you time and time and time and time again.

and you can't even get the contract straight but have the nerve to tell me to get my facts straight? :clap:

if you don't like the nba, don't watch. it ain't perfect but neither is any other sports league.

Every time you post something to me it's a strawman. lol. This time it's about a "contract". I haven't even posted anything about a contract.

Glen20
07-08-2012, 12:26 PM
lol, I'm obviously not alone, and it's a thread about the topic. What, should posters only post things like Kobe sucks on PSD? :laugh2: And this kind of change is like a pendulum, if it swings one way it will also ultimately swing back. You're assuming this is the way the league will always be run in saying that someone should wal away just because they see a change for the worse in the league.

well since its going to swing back, why do people keep complaining?
it's not productive, so why do it? if you dont wanna walk away, then stop complaining...

ink
07-08-2012, 12:26 PM
i think the key is to take a break from it every now and then, during the lulls of the regular season (i.e january)

You must be assuming that those that don't like the "super teams" are losing sleep over it. I doubt anyone is. :) Dude, it's a thread topic for discussion. We discuss. If you don't like the topic, don't post. lol.

Glen20
07-08-2012, 12:27 PM
You must be assuming that those that don't like the "super teams" are losing sleep over it. I doubt anyone is. :) Dude, it's a thread topic for discussion. We discuss. If you don't like the topic, don't post. lol.

well actually it comes across as whining

ink
07-08-2012, 12:29 PM
well since its going to swing back, why do people keep complaining?
it's not productive, so why do it? if you dont wanna walk away, then stop complaining...

Who says it's unproductive? Again, it's a forum. And there are some very successful teams that build from the draft up. It's exciting to talk about those teams -- Spurs, OKC, etc. It's all good.

ink
07-08-2012, 12:32 PM
well actually it comes across as whining

Don't read if it bothers you. You can make that choice if you don't like the topic, just like I don't bother reading every "I hate Lebron" or "I hate Kobe" or "do KG and Pierce hate Allen now?" thread. Those threads are moronic, and a lot of posters just ignore them. Some like them and we live with it. On the other hand, I find some of the insights in this thread to be well-stated and interesting.

Chronz
07-08-2012, 04:47 PM
I expect him not to say it if he doesn't mean it
Thats exactly why he said it, he meant every word. It was a goal of his and he knew its what the fans wanted. Nobody says I plan on getting us above .500, thats all.


- if he's just going to bail out when things get hard.
He got tired of carrying a load that guys in his era never had to. He wanted what Kobe had, QUALITY HELP.


Nobody is forcing him to say anything, so I'm not sure where the "of course" comes in.

It comes into play because its the right thing to say. His goal every year has been to win a title and he let it be known. That his circumstances changed and his faith in management waned doesnt mean what he said was never true.


The following outlines my feelings about the Charlotte/LA draft day trade"

"The deal was actually done a day ahead of time, and it was Vlade for a player to be named," said Bill Branch, the Hornets' head scout at the time who still operates out of Charlotte as a scout for the Seattle-now-Oklahoma City Sonics. "If I remember right, they didn't even tell us who they wanted us to pick until about five minutes before the pick was made. So it was never a matter of us actually drafting Kobe."

"When you look back at it, when we made that trade, here was a 17-year-old kid who had played in high school," said Bob Bass, the Hornets' executive vice president of basketball operations at the time. "Twelve other teams passed on him. We made a decision to win now and not later. We had Dave Cowens as our first-year coach, and I wanted to give him a chance to win. I knew if we got Divac in here, we'd win. I didn't feel the same about Bryant. Without Divac, I thought we might have won 25 games."

No doubt, sadly I never claimed Charlotte wanted him. And lol at you leaving out the part of that article where he says Kobe refused to work out for them. There are alot of OTHER dominoes that fell into place to steer him to LA, Id like your thoughts on those.
He doesnt fall to Charlotte without him refusing to work out for several teams. Wheres the bit about West and the Bryant family whining about them wanting Kobe in LA? Or the snippet about Arn Tellem threatening that Kobe would play in Italy if he was drafted by a city that couldnt boost his Adidas brand? The Hornets were in the dark, but Kobe and everyone connected to him knew about the trade they had in place. Kobe did his best to make sure it worked out. Congrats to him, it was a smart career move because LA makes great players into winning legends.



I don't respect Kobe or Magic on a personal level.
Just talking about basketball bro


I can understand Magic's desire to play in a big market, but I don't respect his decision to demand to play with another star. Sorry, does this go against your attempt to use past Laker's history against a Lakers fan?

Not at all, just wondering how many players you would disrespect for making moves that have enhanced their legacies.


I have no problem with Kobe demanding a trade - he's a competitor and he wanted to compete, and he wasn't given a team that could (certainly not the #1 team in the regular season).
Unlike Bron, Kobe was already in a great market that had proven capable of building contenders around a star player and had already delivered several championship caliber casts which he was able to win 3 titles with. And he calls it quits within 3 years? Atleast Bron gave a small market that had proven itself inept 7.

As for your comment about regular season victories, all that says is that he couldnt lead mediocre talent in the same fashion that Bron could. Remember Bron took a team that couldnt even win a game without him (0-7 IIRC) to the Finals while defeating a superior team in a fashion we may never see again. He then proceeded to win 65 games with Mo Williams as his best partner whilst putting up historical production.


Deng is FAR from a superstar, so this is nowhere near my original Jordan-Magic-Bird point. Regardless, I'd like to see a quote from Kobe himself that says he'd only go to Chicago if Deng is there, because I don't remember seeing it.
It was never meant to, only that Kobe was trying to hop on the young team that everyone had pegged as the next big thing.

As for your request, I saw it on Sportscenter when they interviewed Deng and he said the Lakers were trying to trade for him but that Kobe was vetoing every trade. This was at the point where people thought the 20 year old prodigy was getting ready to blow up, having come off a post season where he averaged 22-9 on superb efficiency and defense.

Heres 1 link tho:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&page=Deng_Bryant

Also MJ didnt need to ask for anything, he played in an era where most stars were on teams that struggled without them, meanwhile he was playing on a team that could win 2 less games without him even playing. Bron didnt have that in Cleveland. If Bron had 2 promising prospects that he could grow with that had the same potential as Pippen and Grant (Despite MJ's *****fit when the Bulls traded for them), Im sure he wouldnt have left his team either. Sadly their management was the kind who would downgrade a 1st rounder to a 2nd rounder within a few weeks and the kind who would foolishly surrender Boozer and hope he would take less money than the market dictated instead of retaining a strong prospect for the money he would command.

In short, the Cavs werent worthy of a talent like Bron.

Chronz
07-08-2012, 04:48 PM
Obviously they do quite often, and historically that has always been the case, but this is different. No point in going in circles any longer. I find that you and others on this point think like happy consumers and there's no changing that.
Agreed.

thekmp211
07-08-2012, 06:23 PM
i think you can be aware of the business dynamics of a sport and not let it jade your perception of athletes and trends.

the fact is we don't know how much of this stuff went on behind the scenes in different eras. the idea that the old school was nothing but brutal, bare nosed competitiveness is just wishful thinking to an era that i don't think ever existed.

the argument is pointless but let's not pretend that big market teams are all of the sudden holding a commodity of talent. again, the lakers and celtics of yesteryear were FAR more monopolistic of basketball talent for a variety of reasons. FA, RFA, all sorts of changes made to the CBA were made in attempts to curb this. but at some point you can't make the bobcats the los angeles lakers. just like you can't make the pirates the yankees, i don't think that makes me a happy consumer, it makes me a realist. sorry if you disagree, but complaining every time a big market team does anything is just spinning the wheels to me.

if anything you should blame boston for the most recent trend. but hating on bron is more fun.

Chronz
07-08-2012, 06:34 PM
the fact is we don't know how much of this stuff went on behind the scenes in different eras. the idea that the old school was nothing but brutal, bare nosed competitiveness is just wishful thinking to an era that i don't think ever existed.
I was at the library the other day reading I forget what, but it was from an old school registry of some sort and they described some role player who found a way to force his way to Boston or out of Boston. I forget which but I found it interesting because this was in the 70's. I mean I knew stars have always been able to do this but this was some bit time role player who I know nothing about. Wish I had checked it out

Chronz
07-08-2012, 06:37 PM
BTW whitemamba since your in here, do you remember when Kobe said something along the lines of "Let all the bandwagoners jump off, but when we get back on top make sure not to let them back in, this is part of the ride and we will rise back", this was like 2 years before he called it quits and tried to get traded.

whitemamba33
07-08-2012, 08:12 PM
Thats exactly why he said it, he meant every word. It was a goal of his and he knew its what the fans wanted. Nobody says I plan on getting us above .500, thats all.

...why did he need to say anything? It's one thing if he says "It's my goal to bring a championship to Cleveland, it's another to say "I won't stop until I get it". When he bolts for Miami, am I supposed to just forget that he said it? Am I supposed to do what you do and just play it off as something he felt he had to say? Let me repeat what I said earlier: I'm just explaining why I lost respect for him. If you choose not to put any weight into what he said and what he failed to do, be my guest.


He got tired of carrying a load that guys in his era never had to. He wanted what Kobe had, QUALITY HELP.

There is no cookie-cutter situation for young stars entering the league. Some players are brought into great teams, other players need to build great teams. For the most part, if you are the number 1 draft pick you are headed to a team that did pretty poorly in the previous regular season...so he really should have understood that he wasn't coming into "what Kobe had". I could bring up that the Cleveland Cavs put together a roster that was capable of winning the most regular season games TWO seasons in a row, making a Finals appearance and several ECF, regardless of who had to shoulder the majority of the load. But then you would reply saying that he had to do all the work, that his team was crap, and that the playoffs are different. And I still wouldn't understand how a team could be so close to winning a championship, yet still be terrible. So i'm glad we got that past us.



It comes into play because its the right thing to say. His goal every year has been to win a title and he let it be known. That his circumstances changed and his faith in management waned doesnt mean what he said was never true.

Like I said, it's one thing to proclaim it as his goal, it's another to say that he won't rest until he gets it. Because clearly, that wasn't true. Since then he's made another strong claim, so we'll see how he does with that. And it's not a bias, I do it for everybody. If Riley didn't follow through on his claim of "next year, we're going to do it again!", I'd be on him too.



No doubt, sadly I never claimed Charlotte wanted him. And lol at you leaving out the part of that article where he says Kobe refused to work out for them. There are alot of OTHER dominoes that fell into place to steer him to LA, Id like your thoughts on those.
He doesnt fall to Charlotte without him refusing to work out for several teams. Wheres the bit about West and the Bryant family whining about them wanting Kobe in LA? Or the snippet about Arn Tellem threatening that Kobe would play in Italy if he was drafted by a city that couldnt boost his Adidas brand? The Hornets were in the dark, but Kobe and everyone connected to him knew about the trade they had in place. Kobe did his best to make sure it worked out. Congrats to him, it was a smart career move because LA makes great players into winning legends.

My point was that Charlotte didn't want him, had no intention of keeping him, and the deal was in place before it was even decided that Kobe would be the draft choice...so it's not like he had to force himself out. To this day I've never seen any quotes from him that said he wouldn't have played in Charlotte. Sure he didn't work out for them, but what player works out for every team? Regardless, it's important that we keep our eyes on the target here. Your point WOULD be relevant if Kobe had wanted to force himself to the Lakers because of the talent there. But he had already worked out for the Clippers, and he thought he was going to be playing there. These were the same Clippers that had previously won only 29 games. So was it about playing in a big market, or about playing with talent? I'm going to have to go with the market, which means that this entire issue really has very little to do with what went down in Miami.



Not at all, just wondering how many players you would disrespect for making moves that have enhanced their legacies.

Enhancing a legacy kind of depends on how you look at it. LeBron could win 5-6 titles with a stacked Miami team, and personally I wouldn't respect it nearly as much as 1 with Cleveland, especially considering it was his goal and that he said he wouldn't rest until he got it.



Unlike Bron, Kobe was already in a great market that had proven capable of building contenders around a star player and had already delivered several championship caliber casts which he was able to win 3 titles with. And he calls it quits within 3 years? Atleast Bron gave a small market that had proven itself inept 7.

I guess we have different opinions of "inept". NBA Finals, ECF, #1 seed twice in a row = inept? Shoulder shrug. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


It was never meant to, only that Kobe was trying to hop on the young team that everyone had pegged as the next big thing.

He worked out for the Nets and Clippers, and was pretty sure he was headed to the Clippers, so like I said - it wasn't about playing on the "next big thing" as much as it was playing in a big market.


As for your request, I saw it on Sportscenter when they interviewed Deng and he said the Lakers were trying to trade for him but that Kobe was vetoing every trade. This was at the point where people thought the 20 year old prodigy was getting ready to blow up, having come off a post season where he averaged 22-9 on superb efficiency and defense.

Heres 1 link tho:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&page=Deng_Bryant

I asked for a direct quote from Kobe...not a claim of seeing it on sportscenter and some unnamed sources that claim to be in the know. If you have one, great. If you don't, just say you don't. Regardless, this wasn't a case of Jordan teaming with Bird or Magic. It's a case of Kobe wanting to make sure that the team he went to wasn't completely stripped and crippled for years.

whitemamba33
07-08-2012, 08:12 PM
BTW whitemamba since your in here, do you remember when Kobe said something along the lines of "Let all the bandwagoners jump off, but when we get back on top make sure not to let them back in, this is part of the ride and we will rise back", this was like 2 years before he called it quits and tried to get traded.

Nope, don't remember that.

LeMarcus
07-08-2012, 10:07 PM
The Heat have not changed anything in the league that wasn't already happening.

Are we forgetting that there have only been two teams that hold the majority of championships since for formulation of the NBA?

If there is complaint about "super teams" then we should make an argument against "super organizations".

The only thing Miami is doing is following the formula created by the Lakers and Boston on how to run a successful organization built on becoming champions.

Chronz
07-09-2012, 02:03 AM
...why did he need to say anything?
Because there is nothing wrong with speaking your mind.


It's one thing if he says "It's my goal to bring a championship to Cleveland, it's another to say "I won't stop until I get it". When he bolts for Miami, am I supposed to just forget that he said it? Am I supposed to do what you do and just play it off as something he felt he had to say? Let me repeat what I said earlier: I'm just explaining why I lost respect for him. If you choose not to put any weight into what he said and what he failed to do, be my guest.

I got that, what you choose to hold against him is completely up to you. Im just asking if you realize its possible for him to mean every word and then change his mind upon further review. Kind of like when Kobe said he would bring the Lakers back to the top before he changed his mind and wanted out.



There is no cookie-cutter situation for young stars entering the league. Some players are brought into great teams, other players need to build great teams. For the most part, if you are the number 1 draft pick you are headed to a team that did pretty poorly in the previous regular season...so he really should have understood that he wasn't coming into "what Kobe had". I could bring up that the Cleveland Cavs put together a roster that was capable of winning the most regular season games TWO seasons in a row, making a Finals appearance and several ECF, regardless of who had to shoulder the majority of the load. But then you would reply saying that he had to do all the work, that his team was crap, and that the playoffs are different. And I still wouldn't understand how a team could be so close to winning a championship, yet still be terrible. So i'm glad we got that past us.

Who says he didnt understand that? Still doesnt exonerate his management and how much harder the Cavs made it to build up his cast. Some of that falls on Bron for being too good too soon, but thats hardly a negative. The Cavs made plenty of mistakes along the way and he wasnt in a situation where people would flock to Cleveland for cheap. He just wanted what Kobe and other champs had.



Like I said, it's one thing to proclaim it as his goal, it's another to say that he won't rest until he gets it. Because clearly, that wasn't true.
How do you know it wasnt true when he said it? Im sure he meant it just like Im sure Kobe meant every word of his proclamation to return the Lakers to their former glory. People change their minds.




To this day I've never seen any quotes from him that said he wouldn't have played in Charlotte. Sure he didn't work out for them, but what player works out for every team? Regardless, it's important that we keep our eyes on the target here. Your point WOULD be relevant if Kobe had wanted to force himself to the Lakers because of the talent there. But he had already worked out for the Clippers, and he thought he was going to be playing there. These were the same Clippers that had previously won only 29 games. So was it about playing in a big market, or about playing with talent? I'm going to have to go with the market, which means that this entire issue really has very little to do with what went down in Miami.

Touche, he would have played in LA and Philly, so it was mostly about money. I maintain that playing in a big market has its benefits with regards to building a team.




Enhancing a legacy kind of depends on how you look at it. LeBron could win 5-6 titles with a stacked Miami team, and personally I wouldn't respect it nearly as much as 1 with Cleveland, especially considering it was his goal and that he said he wouldn't rest until he got it.

I have a feeling most people would disagree with that, especially when you consider what someone like Bird is already saying about his first title. His "Stacked" team is no more stacked than most title winners. He still had to play at a phenomenal level to win, particularly with Bosh absent and Wade struggling with injury.



I guess we have different opinions of "inept". NBA Finals, ECF, #1 seed twice in a row = inept? Shoulder shrug. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I dont blindly look at the teams accomplishments, I view what part they played in supplying the support to the main star. Inept is downgrading a first round pick to a 2nd round pick within a matter of weeks, inept is letting Boozer go, taking a foolish risk that relinquished their ability to retain the only promising prospect they had to grow with Bron. When you have someone the caliber of Bron, you dont have to do much. He was able to carry his flawed team beyond a superior one in a fashion we may never see again, this isnt a testament to Clevelands roster building ability, rather a sign of his own greatness. Any time your team has to depend on 1 player so much your not doing your job.



I asked for a direct quote from Kobe...not a claim of seeing it on sportscenter and some unnamed sources that claim to be in the know. If you have one, great. If you don't, just say you don't. Regardless, this wasn't a case of Jordan teaming with Bird or Magic. It's a case of Kobe wanting to make sure that the team he went to wasn't completely stripped and crippled for years.Fair enough, I admit they were unconfirmed rumors. But Kobe did request a trade, basically going back on his word of returning the Lakers to the top. Which is the point Im trying to make here.

People have the right to change their minds you know.

dh144498
07-09-2012, 10:12 AM
by amazing, do you mean that they came back and won a championship after an embarrassing loss while being the favorites to win the year before? Then yes they have done something amazing.

HiphopRelated
07-09-2012, 10:28 AM
Well I prefer this to the media driven "next Jordan" bs

all those one man bands were some of the worst basketball in the early to mid 00's

driz
07-09-2012, 10:31 AM
It's a game of chess? What portion of chess involves using over-paying pieces and utilizing other players to get in ears and do the GM's job for them?

It's not exciting, it's vomit-inducing.

Iceman_9
07-09-2012, 10:36 AM
Celtics had super teams. Cousy, russell, and celtic greats. They had bird, mchale, parish, dj, maxwell, walton, etc.
Lakers also had theirs. Wilt, west, Goodrich, etc. in the 80's they had Kareem, magic, worthy, cooper, Rambis, Scott, etc..
Pistons had theirs. Bulls in the 90's.

Super teams were always in the league.

whitemamba33
07-09-2012, 11:34 AM
Because there is nothing wrong with speaking your mind.

If "speaking your mind" consists of making promises, saying you won't quit until you achieve your goal, and the bailing out when things get dicey on national television, I have a problem with that. Clearly you don't..so I guess we differ.



I got that, what you choose to hold against him is completely up to you. Im just asking if you realize its possible for him to mean every word and then change his mind upon further review. Kind of like when Kobe said he would bring the Lakers back to the top before he changed his mind and wanted out.

The reasons why he changed his mind were just so weak. I think of it like a marathon. He commited to finishing a marathon race and said he wouldn't stop until he finished it. He didn't finish the race. It wasn't because he was exhausted and couldn't take another step, it's because there was an easier path to the finish line somewhere else. Nobody will ever convince me that a squad that had so much success was THAT far from going over the top. Like I said, I don't recall that Kobe quote at all, but I'll let you know that there are a TON of things that Kobe has done to make me lose some respect for him as a player. I'm very aware of why you are bringing Kobe into this, and if you are looking for someone to defend him blindly you have the wrong guy.



Who says he didnt understand that? Still doesnt exonerate his management and how much harder the Cavs made it to build up his cast. Some of that falls on Bron for being too good too soon, but thats hardly a negative. The Cavs made plenty of mistakes along the way and he wasnt in a situation where people would flock to Cleveland for cheap. He just wanted what Kobe and other champs had.

In my opinion, in your efforts to exonerage LeBron, you've become a little too critical of the Cavs FO. They brought in Mo Williams when he was breaking out on the Bucks. They brought in Jamison after a 20 point season. So there is a 17 ppg scorer and a 20 ppg scorer right there to help LBJ. They brought in Larry Hughes at one point after one of his best seasons. He had dropped 20 ppg the previous season. They brought in the leagues #1 player in terms of true shooting percentage shortly after his best season - Damon Jones, to stretch the floor. They brought in Shaq after he had put up his best numbers in 3 or 4 years with the Suns. Obviously they made some mistakes, but every team has. Including Miami.



I have a feeling most people would disagree with that, especially when you consider what someone like Bird is already saying about his first title. His "Stacked" team is no more stacked than most title winners. He still had to play at a phenomenal level to win, particularly with Bosh absent and Wade struggling with injury.

I understand most people would disgaree, and it's why I was very specific when I said that it was me personlly who believed it. As cheesy as this may sound, at the end of the day it's how I feel about a player's legacy that is important to me. On a related note, would you have put more weight in a title to Cleveland or his Miami championship?




I dont blindly look at the teams accomplishments, I view what part they played in supplying the support to the main star. Inept is downgrading a first round pick to a 2nd round pick within a matter of weeks, inept is letting Boozer go, taking a foolish risk that relinquished their ability to retain the only promising prospect they had to grow with Bron. When you have someone the caliber of Bron, you dont have to do much. He was able to carry his flawed team beyond a superior one in a fashion we may never see again, this isnt a testament to Clevelands roster building ability, rather a sign of his own greatness. Any time your team has to depend on 1 player so much your not doing your job.

Based on what i've said above and in earlier posts, we strongly disagree. Clearly neither of us will budge and there's no reason to keep trying to hammer down the same points.




Fair enough, I admit they were unconfirmed rumors. But Kobe did request a trade, basically going back on his word of returning the Lakers to the top. Which is the point Im trying to make here.

People have the right to change their minds you know.

I'm always amazed with what the media can get away with. If all you need is a "source close to the team", what stops writers from writing anything? For that reason, I've learned not to believe it until it comes from the player's mouth. The first point is an unconfirmd rumor, as you've admitted. The second point is a quote which I'm not familiar with at all and one which I can't find on the Internet. So I'm not sure what I can do for you here.

People do have the right to change their minds...but putting such a commitment into something and walking away from it just because things aren't going my way just isn't how I was raised. It's not like he said he was going to promise to wear a green shirt to the next press conference or something. He made a major commitment to something, he outlined his intent to not rest until he achieve it, and then he walked away. When it comes time for me to take internal stock of a player's competitive nature, I'm not ok with that. Why should anyone else care about my internal stock? They shouldn't.

LRizzle
07-09-2012, 12:14 PM
The thread title should be changed to "It's amazing how much LeBron makes my va gina hurt"

All these kinds of comments or Heat hatred all spawn from peoples discontent for LeBron and somewhat for Wade and/or Bosh.

You want history? How about the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls and even the Pistons to an extent. The Celtics won 10 championships out of 11 from 1959 to 1969. From 1980 to 2002 only FOUR! weren't won by one of the teams mentioned above. So 18 out of 22 were won by Jordan/Pippen/Rodman or Magic/Kareem/Worthy or Bird/Mchale/Parrish , etc.

How come no one talks about how Shaq forced his way out of Orlando and then won three straight with Kobe. Or how Boston started this all bring two HOFs in Garnett and Allen to play with Pierce and then won a championship. But yeah, let's blame Dwight Howards lying and flipflopping and getting his coach fired on LeBron because that's easier. Melo forced his way out because he couldn't lead the Nuggets anywhere and wanted a fresh start. Not so good so far. There's actually been alot more competition and parity lately than there ever has been. But let's be mad at Miami. Because it's easier. And thinking hurts.

Chronz
07-09-2012, 12:25 PM
Ill try not to hammer home the same points, Ill answer your questions tho.


If "speaking your mind" consists of making promises, saying you won't quit until you achieve your goal, and the bailing out when things get dicey on national television, I have a problem with that. Clearly you don't..so I guess we differ.
I dont have a problem with someone changing their minds, no. Particularly when that player has exhausted his talent and has done so much with so little around him.




The reasons why he changed his mind were just so weak. I think of it like a marathon. He commited to finishing a marathon race and said he wouldn't stop until he finished it. He didn't finish the race. It wasn't because he was exhausted and couldn't take another step, it's because there was an easier path to the finish line somewhere else. Nobody will ever convince me that a squad that had so much success was THAT far from going over the top. Like I said, I don't recall that Kobe quote at all, but I'll let you know that there are a TON of things that Kobe has done to make me lose some respect for him as a player. I'm very aware of why you are bringing Kobe into this, and if you are looking for someone to defend him blindly you have the wrong guy.

I dont see what makes it weak, he gave his team ample opportunities to build up a championship caliber support, he saw firsthand how lower tier stars would rather stay in small markets than come to Cleveland. He saw his management refuse to trade for Amare (rumor), he saw countless inept mistakes they had made, the best they could ever provide were has beens and retreads. He saw how much support other champs had, looks to me like he was exhausted.



In my opinion, in your efforts to exonerage LeBron, you've become a little too critical of the Cavs FO. They brought in Mo Williams when he was breaking out on the Bucks. They brought in Jamison after a 20 point season. So there is a 17 ppg scorer and a 20 ppg scorer right there to help LBJ. They brought in Larry Hughes at one point after one of his best seasons. He had dropped 20 ppg the previous season. They brought in the leagues #1 player in terms of true shooting percentage shortly after his best season - Damon Jones, to stretch the floor. They brought in Shaq after he had put up his best numbers in 3 or 4 years with the Suns. Obviously they made some mistakes, but every team has. Including Miami.

When your statistical evaluations comprise of antiquated metrics, its no wonder why you dont see how pitiful his cast is in comparison. That Mo Williams was their best addition makes my case for me. Miami made mistakes, but not to the degree that Cleveland did, but if all your trying to say is that Cleveland wasnt the worst run team in the league then I agree, many of their shortcomings were simply due to the fact that they reside in Cleveland. The point remains they were far from accomplishing what the truly great teams/markets were able to, thats why he left. He didnt want to wait for a miracle when he could go out and make it happen himself. He set himself up for success rather than hope his flawed franchise could eventually break through.



I understand most people would disgaree, and it's why I was very specific when I said that it was me personlly who believed it. As cheesy as this may sound, at the end of the day it's how I feel about a player's legacy that is important to me. On a related note, would you have put more weight in a title to Cleveland or his Miami championship?
A single chip? Obviously because it would have meant he won a title with a declining cast and no other player resembling anything close to a star, I just dont think its fair of me to expect Bron to win a title under those circumstances when none of this generations stars were able to do so, thats why I can understand why he left without accomplishing what he promised. It was far too bleak of a future and the man isnt trying to eventually win 1, hes trying to win multiple titles.

The Best Around
07-09-2012, 03:55 PM
Boston didn't start this. They had a plethora of young players and traded them for two all-stars (KG was a superstar at the time). That was nothing like three players all signing in one place. What Boston did, did not send a knee jerk reaction out everywhere else. Now stars are forcing themselves out more than ever before. CP3, Howard, Deron, Melo, the list goes on and on and will keep going on and on. I didn't see all these huge demands right after the Celtics Big 3 formed.