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Mile High Champ
07-06-2012, 12:00 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last four years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. The season is now over and the Heat have been crowned NBA champs which means its time to kick off the off-season player rankings.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron was labelled by some as Choke Artist in the clutch and now this year had one of the greatest finals performances in recent memory. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 4 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


2012 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings

1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Russell Westbrook
4) Deron Williams
5) Rajon Rondo
6) Tony Parker
7) Steve Nash
8) Kyrie Irving
9)
10)




2011 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings

1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Deron Williams
4) Russell Westbrook
5) Steve Nash
6) Rajon Rondo
7) Tony Parker
8) Jason Kidd
9) Chauncey Billups
10) Stephen Curry

2010 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Deron Williams
2) Chris Paul
3) Steve Nash
4) Rajon Rondo
5) Derrick Rose
6) Chauncey Billups
7) Russel Westbrook
8) Tony Parker
9) Jason Kidd
10) Tyreke Evans

2009 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Deron Williams
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Tony Parker
5) Steve Nash
6) Derrick Rose
7) Devin Harris
8) Rajon Rondo
9) Jose Calderon
10) Jason Kidd

2008 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Steve Nash
3) Deron Williams
4) Baron Davis
5) Tony Parker
6) Jason Kidd
7) Chauncey Billups
8) Gilbert Arenas
9) Jose Calderon
10) Andre Miller

Mile High Champ
07-06-2012, 12:02 PM
Maintain Lowry should of gone last poll but the hype around Irving lifted him above. Lowry here easily for me.

NYMetros
07-06-2012, 12:04 PM
Lawson

Baller1
07-06-2012, 12:20 PM
I'll take Lowry.

Baller1
07-06-2012, 12:21 PM
Lowry will win this easily with all the Raptor fans voting for him now, haha.

xxplayerxx23
07-06-2012, 12:26 PM
Lowry, I do think Irving deserved it to be in the 8

SugeKnight
07-06-2012, 12:30 PM
A healthy Curry goes 8

unleashthebeast
07-06-2012, 12:35 PM
Yeah I will go with Lowry

Chacarron
07-06-2012, 12:38 PM
I have no problem with Kyrie going 8, but Lowry can't slip past this spot.

Chronz
07-06-2012, 12:44 PM
Now it gets interesting. Will decide after I check out some stats

tredigs
07-06-2012, 12:51 PM
Maintain Lowry should of gone last poll but the hype around Irving lifted him above. Lowry here easily for me.

Well that and the fact that Irving out-produced him by virtually all measures.

Despite injury, I'm taking Curry here. The Warriors took the safe route with him and opted for extra rest and an early surgery to ensure full recovery time. Could he have played to finish the season and match Lowry's 45 or so games? Yeah, probably. But it was smart not to and ultimately helped both him and the Warriors for their future.

Also, despite being heralded for elite D in contrast to Curry being bashed for his supposed lack of D, at the end of the day 82games has their opponents production at an identical 17 PER and Synergy had Curry as the better defender by a fairly wide margin. Take that for what it's worth, but I do know that in the Rockets games I've seen I always thought Lowry's defense was spotty. Way too many lapses in any given game despite having all the physical tools.

Ultimately, I'm taking the guy who if his career ended today would have the 2nd highest 3pt percentage in NBA history to supplement his ~90% from the line and 48.5% from the field over Lowry's 40.9% (good from 3 and the line, but it's not enough to compensate) from the field on 14 ppg.

It's also tough to take Lowry over Dragic (or Curry, obviously) when his own coaches opted for Goran when given the opportunity. I do feel that Lowry has been overrated in the past 8 months. And Steph Curry somewhat forgotten. The kid is a great player.

And in their head to heads Lowry's putting up a yikes-worthy 10/4/7 on 31% from the field. http://http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=curryst01&p2=lowryky01

Better Reb% and WS/48? Lowry. (.157 to .144. Last year .130 to .128)

Better PER, TS%, Ast%, Turnover% (i.e. Curry's is lower), Stl%, Per-36 min #'s? Curry to all of the above.

In short, the case here seems clear, doesn't it?

SugeKnight
07-06-2012, 12:54 PM
Curry vs Lowry


Season Age ▴ Tm Lg G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
2011-12 23 GSW NBA 26 732 21.2 .605 .583 2.3 11.3 6.8 32.3 2.8 0.8 17.0 24.0 112 108 1.8 0.4 2.2 .144
2011-12 25 HOU NBA 47 1510 18.9 .558 .486 2.9 13.7 8.2 32.3 2.5 0.7 17.8 22.0 111 104 3.3 1.6 4.9 .157

If Curry was healthy and played the full season he would have been off the board by now. He has similar stats as Lowry while playing on a bum ankle

Hustlenomics
07-06-2012, 01:05 PM
ty lawson if playoffs even matters ...

aussie
07-06-2012, 01:06 PM
went with Rubio

black1605
07-06-2012, 01:13 PM
Lowry.

tredigs
07-06-2012, 01:18 PM
Steph and Ty is a much better argument to me, and it's a tough one. I'd be fine with someone going Ty because he played all the games and had a few really great games against LA (against Sessions, but still).

But I figured a good tie-breaker was their head to head, and that's in favor of Curry again. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=lawsoty01&p2=curryst01




Player PTS FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF MP
Ty Lawson 12.3 4.6 8.6 .536 1.5 2.9 .522 1.5 2.3 .667 1.0 2.9 3.9 5.8 0.5 0.0 2.0 1.8 30.0
Stephen Curry 21.8 8.4 15.4 .545 3.0 5.9 .511 2.0 2.4 .842 0.5 4.4 4.9 6.3 1.4 0.6 2.4 2.4 39.1

nbrod
07-06-2012, 01:22 PM
Lowry

tredigs
07-06-2012, 01:22 PM
Can someone make the argument for us that Lowry is even a good defender, let alone the best at the position?

Because offensively it's clearly Steph Curry followed closely by Lawson.

VinceCarter
07-06-2012, 01:31 PM
There are so many damn good PG lol one spot left and I still see many quality starters.

Sportfan
07-06-2012, 01:37 PM
Lawson then curry

Lowry is severely overrated on these boards, some people called him top 5 a few months ago. He's 10th/11th

Lawson is a better volume scorer and more efficient than Lowry, he's also got a better A/TO ratio. Lowry plays Better defense but he's no CP3.

GoPacers33
07-06-2012, 01:42 PM
Lowry

Rivera
07-06-2012, 01:59 PM
No way im voting lowry. I can make the case he wasnt the best point guard on his own team last year. Give me lawson/curry/wall/dragic over lowry

Chavacano
07-06-2012, 02:02 PM
Ty Lawson.


Steph and Ty is a much better argument to me, and it's a tough one. I'd be fine with someone going Ty because he played all the games and had a few really great games against LA (against Sessions, but still).

But I figured a good tie-breaker was their head to head, and that's in favor of Curry again. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=lawsoty01&p2=curryst01




Player PTS FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF MP
Ty Lawson 12.3 4.6 8.6 .536 1.5 2.9 .522 1.5 2.3 .667 1.0 2.9 3.9 5.8 0.5 0.0 2.0 1.8 30.0
Stephen Curry 21.8 8.4 15.4 .545 3.0 5.9 .511 2.0 2.4 .842 0.5 4.4 4.9 6.3 1.4 0.6 2.4 2.4 39.1



Seems kinda inflated.

tredigs
07-06-2012, 02:13 PM
Ty Lawson.



Seems kinda inflated.

In what sense? Those are their numbers? Link's right there...

And I agree that the case for Dragic over Lowry is also strong. You guys have to realize that you're voting for a guy who lost his starting gig after that infection (where he came back and was ultimately 100%) to Dragic. And it was the right call. Dragic was better than Lowry.

I gotta run but I'd really like to see a couple cases from some of the Lowry supporters. So far we got zero. Just a lot of empty votes.

jtrinaldi
07-06-2012, 02:27 PM
WOWWWW!!!!! Why the **** isn't Jennings in the top 5? Excuse me, but I aint need seen Lowry's bum *** put up 50 on anyone, much less anyone on this list other than Deron. This list is a hypocrisy. Young money is one of the top 3 point guards in the game, and a damn shame that the Homer's that voted on this poll fail to recognize it.

tcav701
07-06-2012, 02:30 PM
No love for Curry?

b@llhog24
07-06-2012, 02:52 PM
WOWWWW!!!!! Why the **** isn't Jennings in the top 5? Excuse me, but I aint need seen Lowry's bum *** put up 50 on anyone, much less anyone on this list other than Deron. This list is a hypocrisy. Young money is one of the top 3 point guards in the game, and a damn shame that the Homer's that voted on this poll fail to recognize it.

:bs:

b@llhog24
07-06-2012, 02:52 PM
Give me Lawson.

LTBaByyy
07-06-2012, 03:12 PM
Lawson
Curry or Wall

People Weill see how overrated Lowry is next season

Sportfan
07-06-2012, 03:12 PM
In what sense? Those are their numbers? Link's right there...

And I agree that the case for Dragic over Lowry is also strong. You guys have to realize that you're voting for a guy who lost his starting gig after that infection (where he came back and was ultimately 100%) to Dragic. And it was the right call. Dragic was better than Lowry.

I gotta run but I'd really like to see a couple cases from some of the Lowry supporters. So far we got zero. Just a lot of empty votes.
I have curry right there with Lawson but if we're talking best PG right now I'm not sure how relevant the head2head is. Lawson took a big step up this year while Curry stayed the same, might have even dipped a tad. They only had one meeting this year (which Curry absolutely dominated) so I don't really think that 1 game should end up being the deciding factor between the two.

Lowry is a clear step down from both

Jennings should be in the conversation as well, but he's not as efficient as Lawson and Curry and his defense/passing isn't anything to write home about either

Jays Claw
07-06-2012, 03:15 PM
WOWWWW!!!!! Why the **** isn't Jennings in the top 5? Excuse me, but I aint need seen Lowry's bum *** put up 50 on anyone, much less anyone on this list other than Deron. This list is a hypocrisy. Young money is one of the top 3 point guards in the game, and a damn shame that the Homer's that voted on this poll fail to recognize it.

:laugh2:

A case could be made as to why Jennings isn't even a top 15 PG. He's far too inconsistent and has a pretty bad career FG% (.393).

As for the poll, I'm going Lowry. He should've made it ahead of Irving but oh well...

Toastyy
07-06-2012, 03:41 PM
This should be Rubio but whatever, I'd take him or John Wall over Lowry any day

tredigs
07-06-2012, 03:41 PM
I have curry right there with Lawson but if we're talking best PG right now I'm not sure how relevant the head2head is. Lawson took a big step up this year while Curry stayed the same, might have even dipped a tad. They only had one meeting this year (which Curry absolutely dominated) so I don't really think that 1 game should end up being the deciding factor between the two.

Lowry is a clear step down from both

Jennings should be in the conversation as well, but he's not as efficient as Lawson and Curry and his defense/passing isn't anything to write home about either

I hear ya, I'd disagree that Curry dipped though. It was actually amazing that despite being hobbled and playing less minutes than normal he still looked like a better player. It's a testament to his off-season work ethic, dude's a gym rat. His defense was much better and his PER, Win Shares/48, FG% and 3pt% were all his best yet (and virtually all better than Lawson/Lowry).

And no doubt that head to head is the least important factor here, but I felt it was worth mentioning since I had trouble deciding between those two. And like you said, even in their sole meeting this year Curry torched him.

Still no cases for Lowry? C'mon fellas. Someone step up.

adidas2307
07-06-2012, 03:54 PM
Curry. Curry. Curry.

StarvingKnick22
07-06-2012, 03:58 PM
Curry should be 8

greg_ory_2005
07-06-2012, 04:16 PM
It's between Lawson, Curry, and Lowry for me. Gonna go with the homer pick though.

Kashmir13579
07-06-2012, 04:22 PM
I'm gonna go with Ty Lawson here.

If you guys want to vote for Curry thats your choice but after Ty and Lowry i consider the 10 spot a toss-up. Curry barely played.

Kashmir13579
07-06-2012, 04:23 PM
Jennings shouldn't get top 10 considerations imo. I don't see any case for it.

DR_1
07-06-2012, 04:24 PM
Rubio

Kashmir13579
07-06-2012, 04:24 PM
After looking at some numbers i'm not entirely sure Lowry is a lock for top-10. I'm actually surprised.

jtrinaldi
07-06-2012, 04:34 PM
After looking at some numbers i'm not entirely sure Lowry is a lock for top-10. I'm actually surprised.
When Canadian homerism happens......

SugeKnight
07-06-2012, 06:21 PM
Lowry is officially the most overrated player on PSD (until Harden gets voted as the #3 SG :facepalm:)

nicegoing
07-06-2012, 06:56 PM
WOWWWW!!!!! Why the **** isn't Jennings in the top 5? Excuse me, but I aint need seen Lowry's bum *** put up 50 on anyone, much less anyone on this list other than Deron. This list is a hypocrisy. Young money is one of the top 3 point guards in the game, and a damn shame that the Homer's that voted on this poll fail to recognize it.

You can't be serious.

Swashcuff
07-06-2012, 07:19 PM
Lowry is officially the most overrated player on PSD (until Harden gets voted as the #3 SG :facepalm:)

So the best rebounding PG in the NBA who remained a top 5 defensive PG despite playing more than half the season injured/sick is overrated?

Seriously?

Did you remember when Kyle Lowry was fully healthy?

When he dropped 32 and 9 on the Jazz, or when he 33, 8 and 9 against the Blazers or even when got 25, 7 and 9 against eh Kings etc.

Swashcuff
07-06-2012, 07:21 PM
After looking at some numbers i'm not entirely sure Lowry is a lock for top-10. I'm actually surprised.

Do you remember what he did when he was healthy? He generated more WS and had a higher PER than damn near anyone else on this list.

Dade County
07-06-2012, 07:31 PM
Lawson has done more then Lowry... and I hope curry can make the top 10

Swashcuff
07-06-2012, 07:46 PM
I hear ya, I'd disagree that Curry dipped though. It was actually amazing that despite being hobbled and playing less minutes than normal he still looked like a better player. It's a testament to his off-season work ethic, dude's a gym rat. His defense was much better and his PER, Win Shares/48, FG% and 3pt% were all his best yet (and virtually all better than Lawson/Lowry).

And no doubt that head to head is the least important factor here, but I felt it was worth mentioning since I had trouble deciding between those two. And like you said, even in their sole meeting this year Curry torched him.

Still no cases for Lowry? C'mon fellas. Someone step up.

That's because I wasn't around.

You alluded to Lowry vs Curry in the first 25 games or so while comparing just their basic metrics but ignoring the fact by the end of February Lowry was averaging 15.9 points, 7.5 assists, 5.2 rebounds and 1.9 steals on .424/.391/.871 shooting percentages, a 20.6 PER and a .186 WS/48.

This was 34 games into the season when he was healthy for the most part before he got the infection. He started just 4 games from this point on. After falling ill his #s took a huge hit and hence the reason we saw his percentages and averages fall the way they did.

At this point Lowry was a better passer, rebounder and defensive player than Lawson and Curry while also generating more WS/48 and an almost equal PER to Curry.

Had it not been for Lowry falling ill (a bacterial sickness that most doctors believed would have costed him the remainder of the season) and subsequently lost his starting position as a result of slowly being worked back into action (coupled with the strong play of Dragic) we would not have seen such a significant dip in his production.

There is honestly no question or debate whatsoever as to if Lowry is better defensively than anyone left on this list not named Ricky Rubio and Jrue Holiday but since you want evidence I'd give you some. For the past two seasons no team has missed more defensively per 100 possessions with their PG off the floor as compared to when he is on than the Houston Rockets.

Honestly if you're going to attempt to gauge individual counter production with a PG like Lowry that plays on a team like the one Lowry and Rubio played for with no one commanding the paint defensively (thus changing the opposing team's plan of attack) may not be the smartest view of their overall defensive worth. Despite not having the best OPP PER Rubio and Lowry boasted the two most impressive defensive points per 100 possessions than any other PG in the league.

If you honestly don't think Lowry is even good defensively then I must say you're not really having the firmest grip on Lowry's game.

Its funny though because early last season when we had a thread about Lowry you said he was one of the most undervalued players in the league but now as he is deadlocked in a discussion with a player from your favourite team you said that he is one of the most overrated players over the last 8 months? :confused:

THE GIPPER
07-06-2012, 07:56 PM
Can someone give me proof that Lowry is such a great defender? Im not trying to knock him but we keep hearing that he's this amazing underrated PG but all I really know is that he lost his starting spot to Goran Dragic.

THE GIPPER
07-06-2012, 07:58 PM
That's because I wasn't around.

You alluded to Lowry vs Curry in the first 25 games or so while comparing just their basic metrics but ignoring the fact by the end of February Lowry was averaging 15.9 points, 7.5 assists, 5.2 rebounds and 1.9 steals on .424/.391/.871 shooting percentages, a 20.6 PER and a .186 WS/48.

This was 34 games into the season when he was healthy for the most part before he got the infection. He started just 4 games from this point on. After falling ill his #s took a huge hit and hence the reason we saw his percentages and averages fall the way they did.

At this point Lowry was a better passer, rebounder and defensive player than Lawson and Curry while also generating more WS/48 and an almost equal PER to Curry.

Had it not been for Lowry falling ill (a bacterial sickness that most doctors believed would have costed him the remainder of the season) and subsequently lost his starting position as a result of slowly being worked back into action (coupled with the strong play of Dragic) we would not have seen such a significant dip in his production.

There is honestly no question or debate whatsoever as to if Lowry is better defensively than anyone left on this list not named Ricky Rubio and Jrue Holiday but since you want evidence I'd give you some. For the past two seasons no team has missed more defensively per 100 possessions with their PG off the floor as compared to when he is on than the Houston Rockets.

Honestly if you're going to attempt to gauge individual counter production with a PG like Lowry that plays on a team like the one Lowry and Rubio played for with no one commanding the paint defensively (thus changing the opposing team's plan of attack) may not be the smartest view of their overall defensive worth. Despite not having the best OPP PER Rubio and Lowry boasted the two most impressive defensive points per 100 possessions than any other PG in the league.

If you honestly don't think Lowry is even good defensively then I must say you're not really having the firmest grip on Lowry's game.

Its funny though because early last season when we had a thread about Lowry you said he was one of the most undervalued players in the league but now as he is deadlocked in a discussion with a player from your favourite team you said that he is one of the most overrated players over the last 8 months? :confused:

Thank you I didnt see this before I posted.

Swashcuff
07-06-2012, 08:11 PM
Can someone give me proof that Lowry is such a great defender? Im not trying to knock him but we keep hearing that he's this amazing underrated PG but all I really know is that he lost his starting spot to Goran Dragic.

Very often when a player suffers and injury or in Lowry's case a sickness that made the simplest of tasks an episode they are slowly worked back into the rotation. When you have a player in Dragic who was playing at a top 10 level in his own right at the time and your team really isn't likely to make the post season you don't rush a player back into action when you don't know exactly how his body would respond.

Remember there was a strong possibility of Lowry missing the remainder of the season so the mere fact that he was able to get back on the floor was an achievement in itself.

Its no real shocker that upon his return his coached would have chosen to stay with the hot player rather than wait to see how exactly Lowry would play upon returning to the team.

Saying Lowry simply lost his starting spot to Dragic is untrue.

tredigs
07-06-2012, 09:19 PM
So the best rebounding PG in the NBA who remained a top 5 defensive PG despite playing more than half the season injured/sick is overrated?

Seriously?

Did you remember when Kyle Lowry was fully healthy?

When he dropped 32 and 9 on the Jazz, or when he 33, 8 and 9 against the Blazers or even when got 25, 7 and 9 against eh Kings etc.

How about when Steph was not even fully healthy?

29/12/5 (3 turnovers) on 10/14 shooting (2/5 from 3) in a win over Utah.
36/7/7 (1 turnover) on 13/17 shooting (6/9 from 3) in a win over Denver.
32/7/6 (1 turnover) on 12/19 shooting (6/8 from 3) in a win over Portland.

You compare the two at their best and it's going to be Curry every time. This is what he was capable of on a weak ankle.

Also, I'm not insinuating Lowry is not a good defender, I was simply asking for a case to be made, because from an eye test level after I began to watch them play more it was obvious that he definitely did not possess the elite lateral quickness he would need to be an elite iso defender and he also just took plays off in transition (out of shape?). Other than that (team D, post D, PnR), he seems great. And the defensive rebounding is certainly a + on defense.

But Lowry is not the best rebounding PG, he simply accrues the most total rebounds. The best rebounding PG's are the ones who can get the offensive put-backs or simply keep the play alive. In that regard it is Westbrook by a mile; I'm not sure Lowry cracks the top 10 on offensive boards (closer to Curry than Rondo) on offensive boards - I won't go as far as to say he's a stat padder by grabbing defensive boards that Scola and company could - but it's not a favorable thing for the offensive/defensive rebound divide to be that stark.

Running out of time here to respond, but I appreciate that finally actually began to make a case for him. Even if I think it has holes.

tredigs
07-06-2012, 09:28 PM
Its funny though because early last season when we had a thread about Lowry you said he was one of the most undervalued players in the league but now as he is deadlocked in a discussion with a player from your favourite team you said that he is one of the most overrated players over the last 8 months? :confused:

C'mon Swash isn't it obvious? I'm full of opinions and I like to argue (sometimes I don't even believe what I'm writing, I'll just write it to see how well someone can dispute it. Not the case here, though). And if you're smart I say opinions should develop as you continue to learn (watching more and becoming disappointed in Lowry's iso D against all the quick guards, in this case). Especially when the opinion you're talking about is directly correlated to the opinion of fans/media (which for Lowry has shot up hugely, obviously). See: Jeremy Lin. Even though Lin at this point has received so much reactionary criticism to combat the media blitzkrieg that I think he's valued right around where he should be at this point.

HallofFameKidd
07-06-2012, 09:43 PM
Lowry

Swashcuff
07-06-2012, 09:43 PM
How about when Steph was not even fully healthy?

29/12/5 (3 turnovers) on 10/14 shooting (2/5 from 3) in a win over Utah.
36/7/7 (1 turnover) on 13/17 shooting (6/9 from 3) in a win over Denver.
32/7/6 (1 turnover) on 12/19 shooting (6/8 from 3) in a win over Portland.

Thanks so basically you just proved my point right? Because to say Lowry is overrated when he's the same company as Curry proves the my point of him not being overrated.


You compare the two at their best and it's going to be Curry every time. This is what he was capable of on a weak ankle.

At the start of this past season this wasn't the case however. Lowry played at a level on both ends of the floor in all aspects of his game that Curry hasn't yet been able to reach.


Also, I'm not insinuating Lowry is not a good defender, I was simply asking for a case to be made, because from an eye test level after I began to watch them play more it was obvious that he definitely did not possess the elite lateral quickness he would need to be an elite iso defender and he also just took plays off in transition (out of shape?). Other than that (team D, post D, PnR), he seems great. And the defensive rebounding is certainly a + on defense.

Like I said already when comparing individual PGs defensively you have to take a serious look at their supporting casts no matter if you're using Synergy stats or not. Opposing teams aren't going to play the same way against Derrick Rose as they'd play against Kyle Lowry.


But Lowry is not the best rebounding PG, he simply accrues the most total rebounds. The best rebounding PG's are the ones who can get the offensive put-backs or simply keep the play alive.

Because Lowry hasn't done this doesn't mean he isn't the best. When he was 100% no one was grabbing boards at the rate that Lowry was. Whether or not he was getting offensive boards really isn't the case this is overall rebounding I'm talking about. Yes offensive boards are more important and harder to grab but that isn't the discussion.


In that regard it is Westbrook by a mile;

Being a 6'3 athletic freak who can jump like no other in the league leaves you with the luxury of fighting for offensive boards amongst the bigs. Smaller, less athletic players just aren't capable of doing that on the offensive glass.


I'm not sure Lowry cracks the top 10 on offensive boards (closer to Curry than Rondo) on offensive boards -

He's better than Curry but not Rondo in that regard.


I won't go as far as to say he's a stat padder by grabbing defensive boards that Scola and company could - but it's not a favorable thing for the offensive/defensive rebound divide to be that stark.

Honestly I don't think it really matters what company he keeps. Just like Jason Kidd (despite being 4 inches smaller) he has an amazing knack for grabbing boards and is really sound on making reads.

The point I was making wasn't the value of offensive/defensive rebounds but rather that he's better than any other at grabbing them on a whole. Based on this past season (especially when he started) he was better than any other.

Swashcuff
07-06-2012, 09:46 PM
C'mon Swash isn't it obvious? I'm full of opinions and I like to argue (sometimes I don't even believe what I'm writing, I'll just write it to see how well someone can dispute it. Not the case here, though). And if you're smart I say opinions should develop as you continue to learn (watching more and becoming disappointed in Lowry's iso D against all the quick guards, in this case). Especially when the opinion you're talking about is directly correlated to the opinion of fans/media (which for Lowry has shot up hugely, obviously). See: Jeremy Lin. Even though Lin at this point has received so much reactionary criticism to combat the media blitzkrieg that I think he's valued right around where he should be at this point.

Fair enough.

I think it's a bit overboard by saying that Lowry has become one of the most overrated players however.

Hell 8 months ago I took Jrue over Lowry hands down and now even as a HUGE Jrue fan I wouldn't even entertain the argument based on their play this past season.

Chronz
07-06-2012, 10:37 PM
I didnt expect this one to be such a blow out. Dont even think my vote matters at this point.

Robbw241
07-06-2012, 11:43 PM
Lawson for me

roshan3ai
07-07-2012, 12:50 AM
I wish more people saw Ty Lawson play. I am a huge huge Lowry supporter, but Lawson was the best player on the 6th seed Nuggets this year and he's arguably the quickest PG in the league. Guy can drive, finish, shoot and dish. Love his game.

Dade County
07-07-2012, 02:42 AM
10th place is going to be crazy ...

Lawson should be higher.

Eagles4Lyfe
07-07-2012, 12:13 PM
Ya i'm shocked at how much people don't give credit to lowrys game pre injury he was seriously a beast and putting up stats as a top 5PG Would but since the bacteria and number deflation people lower his value

X12Celtics3
07-07-2012, 12:40 PM
I was voting for Lowry at #8, I'm surprised so many people think he doesn't deserve #9. He looked pretty damn good before the illness thing.

unleashthebeast
07-07-2012, 03:00 PM
Lawson vs Rubio for #10 should be an interesting battle

IversonIsKrazy
07-07-2012, 03:36 PM
This is based on last years performance. Curry would be #8 imo but he's always injured with those glass ankles, I won't put him in the top 10 of right now because of those injuries.
I'll vote for who I voted for last time, Ty Lawson.

Kashmir13579
07-07-2012, 05:38 PM
Rubio and Lin getting a few votes. :laugh2:

Baller1
07-07-2012, 11:33 PM
Dragic is getting votes? :laugh:

Glen20
07-08-2012, 11:22 AM
Rubio and Lin getting a few votes. :laugh2:

well, Lin is Lin... :laugh:

NBA-GMaster
07-08-2012, 11:37 AM
9, Lowry 10. Rubio

Ebbs
07-08-2012, 01:02 PM
Healthy Curry over Lowry.

Dragic also out performed Lowry in his time in Houston.

Swashcuff
07-08-2012, 01:19 PM
Healthy Curry over Lowry.

Dragic also out performed Lowry in his time in Houston.

Second part couldn't be more wrong. There is a reason Houston fell out of the playoff hunt when Lowry got sick.

Because someone replaces a sick man in the starting line-up doesn't mean he out performed him.

Chavacano
07-08-2012, 03:00 PM
In what sense? Those are their numbers? Link's right there...

And I agree that the case for Dragic over Lowry is also strong. You guys have to realize that you're voting for a guy who lost his starting gig after that infection (where he came back and was ultimately 100%) to Dragic. And it was the right call. Dragic was better than Lowry.

I gotta run but I'd really like to see a couple cases from some of the Lowry supporters. So far we got zero. Just a lot of empty votes.

Played more minutes and shot more. Basically, "used" more, I guess. :shrug:

Ebbs
07-08-2012, 08:01 PM
Second part couldn't be more wrong. There is a reason Houston fell out of the playoff hunt when Lowry got sick.

Because someone replaces a sick man in the starting line-up doesn't mean he out performed him.

What about the fact he was better in every statistical category?

Swashcuff
07-08-2012, 08:45 PM
What about the fact he was better in every statistical category?

What facts bro? I'm a bit confused here can you please enlighten me? Are you talking about their play when they were starters when he had more APG, PPG and shot better than Lowry? Or are you talking about when Lowry generated more WS/48 at a better PER than Dragic did when they started as well as being MUCH more valuable defensively.