PDA

View Full Version : Jeremy Lin overrated or underrated?



aLau10
07-05-2012, 11:52 PM
Ok I am really curious in seeing different inputs by basketball fans as to...

"Whether Jeremy Lin is deserving of his newly offered contract or not? And whether he is simply getting over hyped or simply hated on?"

So for the longest time I have been having debates with my buddies in JLin's regards. Honestly, I think he has seriously been over hyped in February based on that hot streak he has pulled, and that was pissing me off because people are making a huge fuzz about someone they have never even heard the name of. Nonetheless, I was happy for the dude, but the media was just making it worse, as we can see now, after his hot streak ended having one or two unfortunate games, people are already BASHING this man, saying he's GARBAGE and he's a BUST and stuff like that.

LIKE CMON ignore the hype and critics, look for yourself, this guy can ball! He isn't a premier PG but hes definitely starter material, and don't go like MAN this guys is garbage once he plays slightly better teams. DUDE this man ain't an allstar even Westbrook had his bad games scoring less that 10 points in the playoffs when playing good teams. Go easy on this man and lets be rational! Moreover, I would agree he isn't quite worth 30 million yet, but I think he should definitely be offered 20-25 million for his capabilities on the court.

Let me know what you people think! :o

xabial
07-05-2012, 11:54 PM
Lets Look At His New "Overpayed" Contract

$5M, and $5.2M years 1 and 2 is NOTHING. We all Know That. We've All seen what Players make that Much. Evan Turner makes more than that, and Lin's done more in the NBA so far than Evan Turner.

$9.3M in year-3 is where it gets a Tad Expensive. Yes, I understand It may an Overpayment, and the Risk Involved in Signing him due to the Limited Sample Size. But People Need to Understand Year 3 He is an EXPIRING CONTRACT. He can go back sleeping on Landry Fields Coach and he'll still be a Valuable Expiring to any Other Team, ESPECIALLY given Year-4 is UNGUARANTEED. (Team Option).

Eric Dampier sucks ****, But His Unguaranteed Mega-Contract Netted the Mavericks Tyson Chandler. Worst Case Scenario Lins $9.3M Expiring Contract In Year-3 Could Net the Knicks A Contract any other Team wants to Dump, that could be useful Going Forward.

Knicks would be stupid NOT to match. Stop bashing Jeremy's Contract because its the "cool" thing to do. PSD Will Never Understand, and will always follow the Crowd's popular Opinion.

justinnum1
07-05-2012, 11:56 PM
overrated for sure.

rwynyc
07-05-2012, 11:56 PM
Regardless of his skills he will put asians in seats and have them buying merchandise.

That right there is a win. No one is paying for his skills. So the underrated overrated argument is null.

He did look pretty ****ing awesome though during that stretch

Jarvo
07-05-2012, 11:56 PM
Overrated, But who cares he's bigger then Godzilla where he from.

SportsNY
07-05-2012, 11:57 PM
Neither of the poll options really speak to my opinion. I think Lin had one of the greatest stretches in NBA history last season. However, that was such a small sample, he didn't show anything previous to that that would earn him a $30-40 million contract. I think he has time to get better, but right now he's not worth that money.

Evolution23
07-05-2012, 11:57 PM
Most hated player on psd. Even Wade doesn't get the hate this guy gets. But then again Wade is overrated.

xxplayerxx23
07-05-2012, 11:58 PM
Is this a serious question, Over rated. 25 games and he gets this contract. Lets see if he can prove he was worth it,

JasonJohnHorn
07-05-2012, 11:58 PM
What would you rather be; Over paid or underrated?

I think there is not enough of a sample to decide just yet. But with Kidd as a mentor to Lin, and his potential, there is room for greatness.

Evolution23
07-05-2012, 11:59 PM
btw is it possible that he's isn't overrated or underrated? maybe he is just a mediocre player? This sounds like an BSPN question.

xabial
07-05-2012, 11:59 PM
In his 12 starts before the All-Star break, Lin averaged 22.5 points and 8.7 assists, and New York had a 9–3 record. (Team Had NO Carmelo/Amar'e Due To Injuries. Jeremy Led the team.)

NY was 7-0 When He First Started Getting Major PT.

Not To Mention Jeremy Lin is the first Player in NBA history to score at least 20 points and have seven assists in each of his first five starts. (All Wins)

He's the reason NY MADE THE PLAYOFFS in the first Place. He took over, when Knicks Were OUT and had a Sub .500 Record.

-When Carmelo Came Back From Injury Linsanity Died and Knicks Lost 6 out of 7, or something Like That. Lin's #'s Fell across the Board.. Their Games Don't Mesh well together BUT AT LEAST Lin WINS YOU GAMES Carmelo! And he PASSES too! Hopefully they work their **** out in Training Camp, b/c Carmelo is getting on my last *nerves*. Bad Luck Continued when Jeremy Then injured Himself, Now everyone thinks Jeremy's a Mirage.

I believe in Jeremy and know he will prove all you wrong.

ChitownBears22
07-06-2012, 12:00 AM
OVERRATED..........I can't wait to see him fall apart this year and hear the "sophomore slump" excuses.

Showtime Steve
07-06-2012, 12:01 AM
He is overrated. Nobody knew or prepared or him when he first started playing, and of course he balled. But as film on him grew, he didnt adjust his game. A great player adapts when they take away your first move. He may with time, but essentially you are paying a 2nd year player a lot of money. Im not hating on him, if they want o overpay by all means get every dollar. But when he cant produce like he did before teams prepped for him, he is going to take a big backlash. Esp in MSG. (Madison square garden).

effen5
07-06-2012, 12:02 AM
Lin....do it for a full season pal and then I'll change my mind.

sweet-d
07-06-2012, 12:06 AM
He's over rated but he's not a bust. A big part of his popularity is the fact that he played for the Knicks us he played for Milwaukee, Minnesota, or Utah he wouldn't be as popular. He's a good player but I'm not sure if he's as good as some people say.

NYK|NYY
07-06-2012, 12:08 AM
Definitely overrated. Teams probably view him more as a business asset than anything else.

MrfadeawayJB
07-06-2012, 12:09 AM
For a long time he was underrated, but after Linsanity he became highly overated. I knew he became overated when he played Miami and got his cookies stole in the backcourt by Mario Chalmers!

MrfadeawayJB
07-06-2012, 12:10 AM
In his 12 starts before the All-Star break, Lin averaged 22.5 points and 8.7 assists, and New York had a 93 record. (Team Had NO Carmelo/Amar'e Due To Injuries. Jeremy Led the team.)

NY was 7-0 When He First Started Getting Major PT.

Not To Mention Jeremy Lin is the first Player in NBA history to score at least 20 points and have seven assists in each of his first five starts. (All Wins)

He's the reason NY MADE THE PLAYOFFS in the first Place. He took over, when Knicks Were OUT and had a Sub .500 Record.

-When Carmelo Came Back From Injury Linsanity Died and Knicks Lost 6 out of 7, or something Like That. Lin's #'s Fell across the Board.. Their Games Don't Mesh well together BUT AT LEAST Lin WINS YOU GAMES Carmelo! And he PASSES too! Hopefully they work their **** out in Training Camp, b/c Carmelo is getting on my last *nerves*. Bad Luck Continued when Jeremy Then injured Himself, Now everyone thinks Jeremy's a Mirage.

I believe in Jeremy and know he will prove all you wrong.


that could be said for Melo and everybody lol

More-Than-Most
07-06-2012, 12:13 AM
the 2 options should be overrated and really really overrated

More-Than-Most
07-06-2012, 12:14 AM
Is this a serious question, Over rated. 25 games and he gets this contract. Lets see if he can prove he was worth it,

if only we could come together on that other overrated guy in new york :D

xabial
07-06-2012, 12:14 AM
that could be said for Melo and everybody lol

No Like their really bad Together Lol. Carmelo Just Killed the Momentum of "Linsanity". Jeremy Led the team to Seven Straight Wins, and Nine Out of Twelve Games Knicks Won Before the All-Star Break, averaging 22 Points and 8 Assists, Doing It All (Scoring,Dishing,and More (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUp1k03_PsQ))

Carmelo Comes Back And Its :puke: You'd think would be better FULLY HEALTHY, but quite the opposite happened.

Slimsim
07-06-2012, 12:22 AM
why can't these thread get closed it's obvious to bait knicks fans

torocan
07-06-2012, 12:22 AM
OVERRATED..........I can't wait to see him fall apart this year and hear the "sophomore slump" excuses.

Why exactly do you want to see him fail so badly? Would him having a bad year next year make you feel better about yourself? Would you suddenly have a better life? Would it make your team suddenly better?

All Lin ever did was play.

He never trashed anyone, he didn't ask the media to put him on a pedastel, he didn't ask for the Fans to hype him up or down, he didn't force the owners to give him offers, he never took credit for any success, he always gave credit to his team mates and coaches, he didn't act like an idiot off the court, he always takes responsibility for his mistakes,... hell, he even went to Kris Humphries and told him that he felt sympathy for the abuse he takes over his divorce, and took time to have lunch with the fired reporter from ESPN and didn't say a word to the Media (the reporter let the cat out of the bag).

And yet you want him to Fail? What has Lin ever done to you? What has he done except try his best and been an all around good guy?

For a guy that did nothing but Struggle, work Hard, get an education at a top school, and overcome Hardship on his way to the NBA you sure seem invested in his failure.

It seems like an awful lot of Hatred for a guy you've never met.

ball4reel
07-06-2012, 12:23 AM
Dont think he is either. 25 games is to small a window to judge any player. Give him half a season with a full training camp then ask this ques

Slimsim
07-06-2012, 12:23 AM
if this thread isn't closed i'm going to start threads asking the same question

More-Than-Most
07-06-2012, 12:24 AM
Why does this thread need to be closed? How is this not a good topic for discussion?

ThunderousDemon
07-06-2012, 12:32 AM
LINSANITY!!!!

The Knicks are back baby!!!

QuaLiThADoN
07-06-2012, 12:32 AM
Although I was mesmerized by "Lin-Sanity" a it's hard not to stat inflate in a Dantoni system. I believe he is a solid roll player. Back up PG, in a "chalmers-esqu roll", or just a average starting PG

Gagan136
07-06-2012, 12:36 AM
No question he is over-rated, he has only had 2 months of solid ball.

LongIslandIcedZ
07-06-2012, 12:37 AM
Overrated by Knick fans, perhaps underrated by other fans.

The guy clearly isnt a hall of famer. But seeing other fans call him a scrub or trash makes him a tad bit underrated.

rwynyc
07-06-2012, 12:38 AM
why can't these thread get closed it's obvious to bait knicks fans

Because this is not the knicks forum and we dont have moderators looking to flex their muscles and close every freaking thread

QuaLiThADoN
07-06-2012, 12:39 AM
Overrated by Knick fans, perhaps underrated by other fans.

The guy clearly isnt a hall of famer. But seeing other fans call him a scrub or trash makes him a tad bit underrated.

you can't call him trash that's just dumb. He is not by any means an allstar. Under Dantoni everyones stats get inflated. Under woodson I can see him as a 10 and 5 guy. I've watched him a lot seeing I have YES and MSG

torocan
07-06-2012, 12:42 AM
you can't call him trash that's just dumb. He is not by any means an allstar. Under Dantoni everyones stats get inflated. Under woodson I can see him as a 10 and 5 guy. I've watched him a lot seeing I have YES and MSG

He was 16/6 in the games under Woodson. 14/6 for the season including all his trash games.

Lin is over and under-rated depending on who you ask. Personally, I think he'll get better over time. He's got a killer work ethic, and in life that counts for alot.

QuaLiThADoN
07-06-2012, 12:44 AM
He was 16/6 in the games under Woodson. 14/6 for the season including all his trash games.

Lin is over and under-rated depending on who you ask. Personally, I think he'll get better over time. He's got a killer work ethic, and in life that counts for alot.

As long as he keeps on penetrating he can easily put up a 16/6 stat-line but you have to remember when he was playing with Woodson there were injuries all over the place.

I don't believe he is going to continue that type of penetration after a knee injury and a small history of other knee problems. This is where I cam with the 10-5

b@llhog24
07-06-2012, 12:54 AM
Underrated.

torocan
07-06-2012, 12:58 AM
As long as he keeps on penetrating he can easily put up a 16/6 stat-line but you have to remember when he was playing with Woodson there were injuries all over the place.

I don't believe he is going to continue that type of penetration after a knee injury and a small history of other knee problems. This is where I cam with the 10-5

It was a minor meniscus tear. Honestly I don't think it will be an issue. It was his first surgery, and the recovery rate for that kind of injury is very high.

He's not Roy.

Losoway
07-06-2012, 12:59 AM
he isnt worth what he is getting. i just find it funny the knicks was the Only team to take a chance on him when he was riding the bench in the d league. and he agrees to sign with another team smh

torocan
07-06-2012, 01:00 AM
he isnt worth what he is getting. i just find it funny the knicks was the Only team to take a chance on him when he was riding the bench in the d league. and he agrees to sign with another team smh

He had to. The Knicks gave him a minimum QO and told him to test the market.

The only way to set his salary was then to get a competing offer that gets matched by the Knicks.

That's why the Knicks have already responded... not because they thought Lin was going to leave, but because that's the ONLY way a RFA can get more than league average.

JollyRanch
07-06-2012, 01:02 AM
he's def a solid player but he's yeh he's overrated. however, he hasn't been in the league long enough to form an opinion one way or the other

goose14741
07-06-2012, 01:04 AM
Douche bag heat fan -overrated duh
Over eager knick fan- underrated, next steve nash

LA_Raiders
07-06-2012, 01:07 AM
Over rated, He still needs time to develop... Bust & Over paid so far...

Punk
07-06-2012, 01:07 AM
Lol at the people who voted him as a bust. How in the world can you be a bust if you had no expectations to begin with? 15 morons are apart of this forum I see.

Fact is, he won't put up 20 & 7 with this team. However, he can be a Rondo type of player that is the most important player without having the best looking stats or jumpshot. Long as he averages 7 assists, 12 points, high FG%. He'll be fine.

Can't wait to see PSD's reaction if he gets voted in the All-Star game as a starter with Rose out.

Punk
07-06-2012, 01:11 AM
Douche bag heat fan -overrated duh
Over eager knick fan- underrated, next steve nash

I'm sorry but this annoys me more than anything. NO Knick fan has proclaimed him the next Steve Nash.

Magic Johnson, Jerry West and other former players raved about him and said all of that. Not us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt_WYdBW2xc

Delusional
07-06-2012, 01:19 AM
He's overrated based on the money that he's going to receive based on what, a stretch of two months worth of games? But I like the guy, he's got some talent, but he's nowhere near being as good as some I've seen him be called.

ChitownBears22
07-06-2012, 01:29 AM
Not a draft bust Punk. But he will be a contract bust. He is about to get paid alot of money to suck.

Tmath
07-06-2012, 01:34 AM
Over

KnickaBocka.44
07-06-2012, 01:43 AM
Not a draft bust Punk. But he will be a contract bust. He is about to get paid alot of money to suck.


UUUUmmmm....I'm sorry but what evidence do you have supporting your theory that he will suck? You have made your opinion known in a couple of threads, but there is no logic or reasoning behind it

ChitownBears22
07-06-2012, 01:46 AM
UUUUmmmm....I'm sorry but what evidence do you have supporting your theory that he will suck? You have made your opinion known in a couple of threads, but there is no logic or reasoning behind it

It is my opinion. I have watch basketball and PG play for a long time. I don't understand the hype. And I definitely don't understand the contract numbers. Severely overplaying for someone without much of a resume.

KnickaBocka.44
07-06-2012, 01:55 AM
It is my opinion. I have watch basketball and PG play for a long time. I don't understand the hype. And I definitely don't understand the contract numbers. Severely overplaying for someone without much of a resume.


So what your saying is that you form an opinion without thinking about it? Solid gameplan.

And you obviously are not informed on his contract if you think he is going to be "severely overplayed (overpaid)" because only the first three years are guaranteed and in the first two he would only make about 5 million.

If you think that is overpaying then you are a lost cause. In year three it bumps up to 10 mil. but he is an expiring so he could still be used as a valuable trade piece, even if you're ill conceived opinion is correct.

ChitownBears22
07-06-2012, 02:03 AM
So what your saying is that you form an opinion without thinking about it? Solid gameplan.

And you obviously are not informed on his contract if you think he is going to be "severely overplayed (overpaid)" because only the first three years are guaranteed and in the first two he would only make about 5 million.

If you think that is overpaying then you are a lost cause. In year three it bumps up to 10 mil. but he is an expiring so he could still be used as a valuable trade piece, even if you're ill conceived opinion is correct.

Yeah I love having a ? on my books for the 14/15 season like Lin. Not like you already have 56 mil tied up between three players already (oh wait you do!). So yeah paying 10 mil in the third year is overpaying based on the fact he has 22 games under his belt.

And I have thought about my opinion. when Lin played against solid competition after the Miami game you can see he struggled. That was because teams were putting pressure on him by either rotating a SG on him or by forcing him to shoot jump shots. If that is the type of player you like that is fine, I will stick to players like Lowry, Dragic, CP3, D-Will, Nash, ect. Players that bring amazing passing skills along with a high basketball IQ to know when and when not to take shots.

torocan
07-06-2012, 02:10 AM
Yeah I love having a ? on my books for the 14/15 season like Lin. Not like you already have 56 mil tied up between three players already (oh wait you do!). So yeah paying 10 mil in the third year is overpaying based on the fact he has 22 games under his belt.

And I have thought about my opinion. when Lin played against solid competition after the Miami game you can see he struggled. That was because teams were putting pressure on him by either rotating a SG on him or by forcing him to shoot jump shots. If that is the type of player you like that is fine, I will stick to players like Lowry, Dragic, CP3, D-Will, Nash, ect. Players that bring amazing passing skills along with a high basketball IQ to know when and when not to take shots.

Erm, you aren't getting CP3, d-will, or Nash for anywhere near $6.6M unless he really, really wants to play for you (like being near his family). And the only reason Lowry is @$6M is because he wasn't nearly as good when he got his original deal.

Sure, CP3 is far better, but for $6.6M, what level of player can you realistically expect?

Hard to argue overpaid vs DWill who's making $20M x 5 years or other comparable PG's.

And arguing that most of the FA's are being overpaid makes no sense when that's the going rate.

jimm120
07-06-2012, 02:10 AM
In his 12 starts before the All-Star break, Lin averaged 22.5 points and 8.7 assists, and New York had a 93 record. (Team Had NO Carmelo/Amar'e Due To Injuries. Jeremy Led the team.)

NY was 7-0 When He First Started Getting Major PT.

Not To Mention Jeremy Lin is the first Player in NBA history to score at least 20 points and have seven assists in each of his first five starts. (All Wins)

He's the reason NY MADE THE PLAYOFFS in the first Place. He took over, when Knicks Were OUT and had a Sub .500 Record.

-When Carmelo Came Back From Injury Linsanity Died and Knicks Lost 6 out of 7, or something Like That. Lin's #'s Fell across the Board.. Their Games Don't Mesh well together BUT AT LEAST Lin WINS YOU GAMES Carmelo! And he PASSES too! Hopefully they work their **** out in Training Camp, b/c Carmelo is getting on my last *nerves*. Bad Luck Continued when Jeremy Then injured Himself, Now everyone thinks Jeremy's a Mirage.

I believe in Jeremy and know he will prove all you wrong.


I think you missed the part of when LIN/MELO/AMARE were all playing together and they went 6-0.

and don't bash Melo. Knicks lost Lin AND Amare in the same game...and guess what, Melo LED the league for a month and got the Knicks to the playoffs. All without Lin and Amare.

I hope Woodson can come next year with a good plan on how to use all of his guys.

HoodedSB
07-06-2012, 02:10 AM
Both options aren't fair, but he's overrated. He's an undersized SG playing point who can only drive one way to the basket and has ball handling issues. I think he can be a solid bench player in the league, but not buying him one bit as a starter. What kind of PG averages nearly as many TO as assists?

Jarvo
07-06-2012, 08:27 AM
Most hated player on psd. Even Wade doesn't get the hate this guy gets. But then again Wade is overrated.

:facepalm: :laugh2:

nyKnicks126
07-06-2012, 08:31 AM
I don't agree with any of those options in the poll so I refuse to vote on this one..

But at this point Lin is a bit overrated in my honest opinion..

GrumpyOldMan
07-06-2012, 08:38 AM
I have absolutely nothing against Lin, but I think he is extremely overrated at this point by Knick fans, but I think he is underrated by people who think he will be a complete bust. I think Lin will fall into the category of around average at point guard.

nyKnicks126
07-06-2012, 08:41 AM
I have absolutely nothing against Lin, but I think he is extremely overrated at this point by Knick fans, but I think he is underrated by people who think he will be a complete bust. I think Lin will fall into the category of around average at point guard.

Look at my post above.

GrumpyOldMan
07-06-2012, 08:44 AM
Look at my post above.

sorry, should have said most Knick fans.;)
I do think he is a signing you guys have to match though.

mjm07
07-06-2012, 08:44 AM
I didn't vote but Lin is solid PG. An All-star, at best. Not overrated( unless pple start calling him an elite player)but def overhyped. Although, not unusual since he plays for NY.

nyKnicks126
07-06-2012, 08:46 AM
sorry, should have said most Knick fans.;)
I do think he is a signing you guys have to match though.

They will match it.. the 4th year is a team option so that's good.

nyKnicks126
07-06-2012, 08:47 AM
I didn't vote but Lin is solid PG. An All-star, at best. Not overrated( unless pple start calling him an elite player)but def overhyped. Although, not unusual since he plays for NY.

A lot of fans overhype their players.. Some heat fans overhyped Norris Cole when he had that great start in the beginning of the season...

koreancabbage
07-06-2012, 08:51 AM
well one thing for sure.


he's not underrated

dh144498
07-06-2012, 09:13 AM
not overrated, just overhyped.

aLau10
07-06-2012, 09:19 AM
Why exactly do you want to see him fail so badly? Would him having a bad year next year make you feel better about yourself? Would you suddenly have a better life? Would it make your team suddenly better?

All Lin ever did was play.

He never trashed anyone, he didn't ask the media to put him on a pedastel, he didn't ask for the Fans to hype him up or down, he didn't force the owners to give him offers, he never took credit for any success, he always gave credit to his team mates and coaches, he didn't act like an idiot off the court, he always takes responsibility for his mistakes,... hell, he even went to Kris Humphries and told him that he felt sympathy for the abuse he takes over his divorce, and took time to have lunch with the fired reporter from ESPN and didn't say a word to the Media (the reporter let the cat out of the bag).

And yet you want him to Fail? What has Lin ever done to you? What has he done except try his best and been an all around good guy?

For a guy that did nothing but Struggle, work Hard, get an education at a top school, and overcome Hardship on his way to the NBA you sure seem invested in his failure.

It seems like an awful lot of Hatred for a guy you've never met.

Ditto!
OK I'm sorry that I provided poll options that weren't convincing enough, but all I was trying to get through is exactly what this man "torocan" has said. Seriously, I can somewhat understand the hate and discomfort some of you people have on Lin simply because of these random Asians and Knicks fan jumping outta no where suddenly cheering for him.

But like I said right in the beginning, IMO Lin can play, if your going to say that he has only 25 games under his belt then don't put the argument of how he also get smashed by better teams, because both arguments mainly proves he is inexperienced, but both arguments contradicts one another.

Seriously, just let the kid play the game, he hasn't done anything to deserve this hate, appreciate what he has done and what is going to continue on doing for basketball fan (not just Knicks fans) AND DONT HATE CUZ I AINT A KNICKS FAN EITHER. :D

sintaks12
07-06-2012, 09:21 AM
not overrated, just overhyped.

This. If he put up the same numbers in Minny, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Not over, not under... somewhere in the middle. And that's exactly what NY needs.

PC
07-06-2012, 09:21 AM
I wouldn't say he's overrated. I think overhyped is the better word

celtNYpatsHeels
07-06-2012, 09:26 AM
Over rated? - No I dont think so. Anyone who knows basketball understands that he is not a top PG

Over hyped? - Absolutely! The NY Post headlines & ESPNs boner coverage of him would make you think he is the second coming of John Stockton

mjm07
07-06-2012, 09:32 AM
A lot of fans overhype their players.. Some heat fans overhyped Norris Cole when he had that great start in the beginning of the season...

Good point. Many fans do this. But there's no comparison towards the way Lin was hyped last yr. IMO

EnWhyKay
07-06-2012, 09:34 AM
He is somewhere in the middle..

TheNumber37
07-06-2012, 09:37 AM
He's a bit overhyped, but in no way is he going to be a bust.
He's got good vision, good size, decent jumper, quick first step and can finish in traffic. Oh, and he also turns 24 next month.
I think he can become a better defender and shooter. Cutting down TOs will do a lot for his game and Kidd is a great player for him to learn and compete against during training camp and practices. He is a bit overpaid right now, but in 2 years he could very well be worth the 10 millon he would make. I mean, for his basketball abilities he should be worth about 6-8 mil per year by then, but what he brings back in tickets and promotion is well worth over the 2 mil bump he will be getting.

Let's just hope he doesn't get voted in as an all star starter. We know being there puts Melo in the starting lineup, though.

KnicksR4Real
07-06-2012, 09:42 AM
How can he be under hyped? He's overhyped imo he isn't that good at all, just a solid pg.

YashBoone
07-06-2012, 09:44 AM
1) there are just pure knick haters who will come in here and say "overrated"

2) coming for a Knicks fan, I feel he still has a lot to prove. We saw him play one of the best stretches ever, but to believe that that is his standard playing level and thats how he will always play is to say that he will go down as the best player the nba has ever seen. Thats just nonsense, because besides those 8 games where he played like he came from a unicorns vaguna , he just played Medicare otherwise and played absolutely aweful against Miami, who is the team to beat.

He may become a very serviceable pg, and I am rooting for him but I do believe some people have really bought into the hype.

He still has a lot to prove. And yes I think as of right now he is being offered a over paying contract.

torocan
07-06-2012, 09:48 AM
Over rated? - No I dont think so. Anyone who knows basketball understands that he is not a top PG

Over hyped? - Absolutely! The NY Post headlines & ESPNs boner coverage of him would make you think he is the second coming of John Stockton

This.. sort of.

I think he's overhyped as far as most basketball fans are concerned. Though I think he gets about the right amount of hype as far as casual and non fans are concerned.

He's one of those players that non-fans of the sport want to follow, which is part of why he brings so much money to the table... though I have no doubt it gets tiresome if you're not a casual fan (which by definition you are NOT if you are on PSD).

And for those who complain about all the bandwagon fans... you shouldn't. The more casual players a guy like Lin brings to YOUR arena, the more people that will eventually start following YOUR team and the game of Basketball as NON-Casual fans.

Just like Miami bandwagon fans, once Lebron and Wade are gone, SOME of them will remain as Hardcore fans. Yes, it can be annoying to those of us who have suffered through bad seasons for our teams, but how many seasons do they need to watch before they stop being on the Bandwagon?

Given the choice, I'd rather have Bandwagon fans than empty Arenas. Empty Arenas have only one ending... and that's a team move. Just ask Vancouver or New Jersey how they feel about empty Arenas.

So don't Hate on the Hype, and don't hate on the Teams that want him... he's good for the Game, he's good for most teams that can use him, and in the end he's good for EVERY team.

Sure, he's not Derrick Rose, and he's not CP3... but how many PG's are? 70+ PG's in the League and he's a Starter.

A guy who can run a floor as a starter AND fill an arena is pretty rare in this league. That he is young and can get better is a bonus.

aLau10
07-06-2012, 09:50 AM
1) there are just pure knick haters who will come in here and say "overrated"

2) coming for a Knicks fan, I feel he still has a lot to prove. We saw him play one of the best stretches ever, but to believe that that is his standard playing level and thats how he will always play is to say that he will go down as the best player the nba has ever seen. Thats just nonsense, because besides those 8 games where he played like he came from a unicorns vaguna , he just played Medicare otherwise and played absolutely aweful against Miami, who is the team to beat.

He may become a very serviceable pg, and I am rooting for him but I do believe some people have really bought into the hype.

He still has a lot to prove. And yes I think as of right now he is being offered a over paying contract.

Agreed! another guy proving what I wanna say, except the "playing like he came from a unicorns vaguna...." part

Fnom11
07-06-2012, 09:52 AM
Anyone remember that game vs the Heat where Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole absolutely embarrassed Lin? The dude has a lot to improve before being worth the money he's being offered. Maybe it's just for marketing purposes.

mlisica19
07-06-2012, 09:52 AM
He is def overrated but that does not means hes not a good player. Hes a player that can def be developed properly and become a stud on a consistent basis. I mean the guys only played a handful of games and many fans of his are saying hes a top 5 PG.

I never understood why so many pro teams in basketball and football are all about giving up on the young players for someone better yet older and more expensive. What ever happened to drafting or signing the youth, developing them as they grow with the team and bond to increase chemistry and have a STRONG team for years.

So basically im saying is that I hope the Knicks find a way to keep him but he is overrated by many

Jroz
07-06-2012, 09:53 AM
I voted that he's getting hated on jsut because there wasn't a middle option...I dont think he's an all-star nor a bust..he'll be what he averaged at the end..a 12 and 6 guard..if Dragic is getting that money for hiss 11 and 6 so should Lin, end transmission

aLau10
07-06-2012, 09:58 AM
I voted that he's getting hated on jsut because there wasn't a middle option...I dont think he's an all-star nor a bust..he'll be what he averaged at the end..a 12 and 6 guard..if Dragic is getting that money for hiss 11 and 6 so should Lin, end transmission

:clap:

justinnum1
07-06-2012, 10:45 AM
if this thread isn't closed i'm going to start threads asking the same question

:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

Ty Fast
07-06-2012, 11:00 AM
he played great for like 10 games then was exposed. i think the verdict is still out on him. i think he deserves a chance and then we will see how he does after a season of full time play.

smood999
07-06-2012, 11:05 AM
too soon to tell option?

RLundi
07-06-2012, 11:11 AM
I think we'll be able to ascertain that better this season. I personally am not sold on him being as good as he is. I think it's hard to prepare for something you know absolutely nothing about, and that's why teams had trouble with him this year.

He still projects to be a solid point guard though.

Green_Monster
07-06-2012, 11:13 AM
Underrated. People hate on him because it's the cool thing to do.

mavwar53
07-06-2012, 11:27 AM
the moron who made this pole, how can he be a bust, he was undrafted, he is overhyped and overrated for sure but definitely not a bust.

Oldmantrash
07-06-2012, 11:27 AM
I was hoping he would end up in Houston, I think he is real good, and want him out of my division.

The guy can play, people just like to bring anything NY down.

KniCks4LiFe
07-06-2012, 11:32 AM
you know what the hell w/ these polls, the thing I want to know is WTH does he have to do to not be overhyped to you or other fans. I want statlines, give me a marker

PPG:
APG:
RPG:
FG%:
3PT%:

Go ahead, I want to know what is the marker fans want in order to STFU and believe his hype.

scaramantula
07-06-2012, 11:46 AM
too soon to tell option?

yeah thats what im thinking the 2 options are hes going to be a star or hes a bust, are players not allowed to be serviceable role players anymore?

aLau10
07-06-2012, 12:24 PM
the moron who made this pole, how can he be a bust, he was undrafted, he is overhyped and overrated for sure but definitely not a bust.

Uhhhh HIGHLY unnecessary to have called me a moron, I simply put that option as an answer option because that was what my friends (and as we can see also other basketball fans on PSD) were arguing him to be. Moreover, if you would've READ what I wrote, I'm personally a fan of JLin. :facepalm:
I would really like to be like you and unnecessarily insult you, but I rather keep this thread in relevance to the topic.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-06-2012, 12:25 PM
overrated for now.

ink
07-06-2012, 12:28 PM
he played great for like 10 games then was exposed. i think the verdict is still out on him. i think he deserves a chance and then we will see how he does after a season of full time play.

Fairly said. He has some major weaknesses (can't go left) that are almost unheard of at this level. Not sure whether he can develop at this point but he's extremely smart so another season is the best way to assess. See how well he adapts and improves after teams have time to make adjustments to him.

Auseranami
07-06-2012, 12:35 PM
i dont think hes a bust, but i do think hes over hyped. when he played against the top pgs he understandably got run over, but against the mediocre pgs he did pretty good. he was undrafted and came out of nowhere so im under the impression that teams werent prepared for him so of course he dominated. i think hell be a solid point, especially with jason kidd mentoring him. just like the media does with everything, they overhyped the **** out of him

VRP723
07-06-2012, 12:37 PM
Overrated, But who cares he's bigger then Godzilla where he from.

Palo Alto, CA?

TeamSeattle
07-06-2012, 12:37 PM
Palo Alto, CA?

I'm guessin he was referring to Taiwan/China where his parents are from.

nycsports2
07-06-2012, 12:39 PM
at this point overrated but hes gonna be a good player for a long time imo

Shkelqim
07-06-2012, 12:56 PM
I predicted this, the media kills players like Lin. He could be very good but the media will screw up his whole career.

KnickaBocka.44
07-06-2012, 01:27 PM
you know what the hell w/ these polls, the thing I want to know is WTH does he have to do to not be overhyped to you or other fans. I want statlines, give me a marker

PPG:
APG:
RPG:
FG%:
3PT%:

Go ahead, I want to know what is the marker fans want in order to STFU and believe his hype.


I was very tempted to answer this and then it occurred to me: Non-Knick fans wouldn't be satisfied with a statline that wasn't close to 20/10 because of all the hype.


As a fellow Knick fan, I know the Knicks don't need that out of him. If he gave us 13/7/3/48%/36% I would be completely happy---as long as the TO's went down as well.

aLau10
07-06-2012, 01:30 PM
I predicted this, the media kills players like Lin. He could be very good but the media will screw up his whole career.

:clap: exactly where I'm getting at too, seriously its pissing me off. exactly why I'm hating those bandwagoners, you ain't doing any good for this dude.

Azzacadabra
07-06-2012, 01:35 PM
For me it's too early to tell I mean we've yet to really see him in a full season starting role.

justinnum1
07-06-2012, 01:35 PM
im going to guess that those 37 votes are knick fans

HaruSoul
07-06-2012, 01:37 PM
It seems that everybody thinks that everybody else thinks that he is a top 10PG, when in reality no body does.

torocan
07-06-2012, 02:50 PM
Fairly said. He has some major weaknesses (can't go left) that are almost unheard of at this level. Not sure whether he can develop at this point but he's extremely smart so another season is the best way to assess. See how well he adapts and improves after teams have time to make adjustments to him.

This is a crock of crap.

Lin goes LEFT plenty of times. LEFT is his WEAKER side, and that's very, VERY COMMON. If you shoot Right handed, your left side is your weak side. That's the VAST majority of players.

Go watch the games... he goes LEFT, it's just not as strong as his Right.

People operate under some delusion that every NBA player is equally ambidextrous. That's actually quite rare.

People have dominant eyes, dominant hands and dominant legs. You can offset it to a degree, but it's the VAST majority of athletes at every level. Thinking that being weaker on one side is some massive anomaly is misleading at best.

Lin has weaknesses, he's not perfect, but they've been massively blown out of proportion for a guy that was thrown into the fire off the bench without a training camp, in a compressed season, a changing roster, and had to adjust under 2 different coaches against multiple defenses he'd never seen before whose #1 goal was to stop him.

Let him get a training camp under his belt with a stable roster, and we'll see how far he goes. However, just based on last year, including the post all-star break games he was at least a middling starting PG, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

joeystats
07-06-2012, 03:08 PM
both

Becks2307
07-06-2012, 03:10 PM
People on PSD are hilarious

25 games - "WAYYY TOO SMALL A SAMPLE SIZE.."
...BUTT
that ONE GAME vs the HEAT- "THIS GUY IS DEF A BUST"

lmao

Blitzbolt
07-06-2012, 03:11 PM
A solid player not that good but not that bad.

justinnum1
07-06-2012, 03:14 PM
People on PSD are hilarious

25 games - "WAYYY TOO SMALL A SAMPLE SIZE.."
...BUTT
that ONE GAME vs the HEAT- "THIS GUY IS DEF A BUST"

lmao

lin is a mediocre backup.

torocan
07-06-2012, 03:15 PM
lin is a mediocre backup.

So you're saying he's the #45 PG in the league? Uh... ok. Whatever floats your boat...

King41
07-06-2012, 03:23 PM
i think he is a bit overrated he has to prove what he can do night in and night out

D-Leethal
07-06-2012, 03:39 PM
People judge him like he's supposed to be an established vet and he certainly doesn't get the same treatment other first and second year players get with regards to bad games or minor holes in their game that need to be fixed.

Kyrie Irving had some god awful performances this season against both TOR and NOH and Lin has a bad game against the champs and its like he will never overcome it, even when he went on to finish the season averaging something like 17-7 after that game where 'the league figured him out'

People talk about other young players like they will only continue to get better, people talk about Lin like he has maxed his potential. They also act like he never had a good game post Miami which is just flat out false.

Any other first or second year undrafted player who puts up the #s Lin did this season would be heralded around the league as a great young player, Lin is just shat on because the media took his story and ran with it. He didn't want Linsanity, all he did was play, and do things nobody has ever done in their entrance to the league. Things settled down but he still put up VERY GOOD PG numbers in basically his rookie season.

Beantownsboss
07-06-2012, 03:42 PM
Overrated big time

Raph12
07-06-2012, 03:42 PM
He's extremely overrated, he's not Hasheem Thabeet, but he's not the Knicks' savior either...

Toastyy
07-06-2012, 03:48 PM
Almost every Knicks ends up overrated

RonE Coleman
07-06-2012, 03:50 PM
Why can't he be overrated but not a bust. He can be an above average PG but still be overrated. Flawed question imo

Becks2307
07-06-2012, 03:54 PM
People judge him like he's supposed to be an established vet and he certainly doesn't get the same treatment other first and second year players get with regards to bad games or minor holes in their game that need to be fixed.

Kyrie Irving had some god awful performances this season against both TOR and NOH and Lin has a bad game against the champs and its like he will never overcome it, even when he went on to finish the season averaging something like 17-7 after that game where 'the league figured him out'

People talk about other young players like they will only continue to get better, people talk about Lin like he has maxed his potential. They also act like he never had a good game post Miami which is just flat out false.

Any other first or second year undrafted player who puts up the #s Lin did this season would be heralded around the league as a great young player, Lin is just shat on because the media took his story and ran with it. He didn't want Linsanity, all he did was play, and do things nobody has ever done in their entrance to the league. Things settled down but he still put up VERY GOOD PG numbers in basically his rookie season.

this.

BKLYNpigeon
07-06-2012, 04:05 PM
The Knicks are overrated.

cssdmark
07-06-2012, 04:05 PM
He is overhyped and that worries me because too much pressure plus New York media can crush people. I am hoping he end up being underhyped as I am a Knick fan and hopes he becomes an all star, that would only help the NY Franchise

FOBolous
07-06-2012, 04:06 PM
For a long time he was underrated, but after Linsanity he became highly overated. I knew he became overated when he played Miami and got his cookies stole in the backcourt by Mario Chalmers!

it wasn't just Mario Chalmers...it was the whole Heat's team defense. dude's basically a rookie. can't fault the guy for struggling against one of the best defense in the league.

justinnum1
07-06-2012, 04:08 PM
The Knicks are overrated.

thats crazy talk, they will be somewhere between the 4-6 seed next year.

Kashmir13579
07-06-2012, 04:14 PM
Underrated and hated by the hoopleheads. You see him at least twice next season and have to answer for your indiscretions.

Kashmir13579
07-06-2012, 04:15 PM
Oh and btw, The Knicks are back.

mjm07
07-06-2012, 04:41 PM
the knicks are overrated.

+1

TeamSeattle
07-06-2012, 04:43 PM
The Knicks are overrated.

How are we overrated when the analysts last year picked us to be a 7th seed and we were.

Kashmir13579
07-06-2012, 04:46 PM
So you're saying he's the #45 PG in the league? Uh... ok. Whatever floats your boat...

Don't worry. Justinum has made it clear time and time again that he just says things, with nothing to back it up other than "Miami Heat has better defense".

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-06-2012, 04:48 PM
How are we overrated when the analysts last year picked us to be a 7th seed and we were.

ok maybe

but fans hopes were much higher than reality

torocan
07-06-2012, 04:49 PM
ok maybe

but fans hopes were much higher than reality

That's pretty much the story with every team...

That said, I think the Knicks have a real shot to be a top 4 seed, with a smaller shot to take #2/3.

Getting out of the ECF? Not that likely barring injury to Miami...

justinnum1
07-06-2012, 06:39 PM
The Knicks are overrated.

How are we overrated when the analysts last year picked us to be a 7th seed and we were.

Huh? Pretty sure analysts thought the Knicks were a top 4 team. You guys has melo amare and chandler

Please show me these analysts that thought the Knicks would be a 7 seed

aLau10
07-06-2012, 06:41 PM
People judge him like he's supposed to be an established vet and he certainly doesn't get the same treatment other first and second year players get with regards to bad games or minor holes in their game that need to be fixed.

Kyrie Irving had some god awful performances this season against both TOR and NOH and Lin has a bad game against the champs and its like he will never overcome it, even when he went on to finish the season averaging something like 17-7 after that game where 'the league figured him out'

People talk about other young players like they will only continue to get better, people talk about Lin like he has maxed his potential. They also act like he never had a good game post Miami which is just flat out false.

Any other first or second year undrafted player who puts up the #s Lin did this season would be heralded around the league as a great young player, Lin is just shat on because the media took his story and ran with it. He didn't want Linsanity, all he did was play, and do things nobody has ever done in their entrance to the league. Things settled down but he still put up VERY GOOD PG numbers in basically his rookie season.

What this man said... :clap:

KnIckFaN.2883
07-06-2012, 06:55 PM
the problem is that people are doubting that he'll improve as a player. People don't see his potential,they only see that he'll fall back to earth and be a scrub.

ohreally
07-06-2012, 07:13 PM
He's underrated if he's in an open, spread the floor offense and just shy of mediocre in a set offense. And Kidd won't really change that.

Il Mago50
07-06-2012, 07:15 PM
....

Can someone really justify this guy being underrated...???

He's the most overrated player in the last 15 years of basketball, right up there with Flip Murray.

D-Leethal
07-06-2012, 07:30 PM
....

Can someone really justify this guy being underrated...???

He's the most overrated player in the last 15 years of basketball, right up there with Flip Murray.

Knick fans don't consider him to be more than just a very good young PG. Thats not overrating him. The guys like you who call him a complete scrub or an average backup (top 45) PG are just hating and underrating him with literall nothing to back it up.

Read my post that was just quoted 3x on the last 2 pages and please come up with a response using stats and historical evidence from young second year PG's who put up similar stats early in their careers to make your case why Lin is nothing more than a scrub. If you want to bring up his game against MIA, please see Kyrie Irvings games against TOR and NOH this season and use that in your argument. Fair is fair. Compare him to the other PG's from his draft class that weren't drafted #1 overall for analysis, not proven veterans. Account for likelihood to improve and potential like you would for any other young player not named Jeremy Lin.

Saying 'He is the most overrated player since Flip Murray' and 'Hes a mediocre backup at best' are fluffed up rhetorical nonsense with absolutely NOTHING to back it up or support it. But this is the NBA forum so why am I not surprised?

I'll be waiting.

TrueFan420
07-06-2012, 07:46 PM
Knick fans don't consider him to be more than just a very good young PG. Thats not overrating him. The guys like you who call him a complete scrub or an average backup (top 45) PG are just hating and underrating him with literall nothing to back it up.

Read my post that was just quoted 3x on the last 2 pages and please come up with a response using stats and historical evidence from young second year PG's who put up similar stats early in their careers to make your case why Lin is nothing more than a scrub. If you want to bring up his game against MIA, please see Kyrie Irvings games against TOR and NOH this season and use that in your argument. Fair is fair. Compare him to the other PG's from his draft class that weren't drafted #1 overall for analysis, not proven veterans. Account for likelihood to improve and potential like you would for any other young player not named Jeremy Lin.

Saying 'He is the most overrated player since Flip Murray' and 'Hes a mediocre backup at best' are fluffed up rhetorical nonsense with absolutely NOTHING to back it up or support it. But this is the NBA forum so why am I not surprised?

I'll be waiting.
You need to understand tho no one will call him underrated cause the media like you said ran with his story and for that very reason most people will call him overrated cause the media road his jock. In reality as someone who has seen him play since high school he could become a very good pg in the right system but the sample size is far too small he will need to prove it next year and it will be very interesting to see if he can become that or just a solid pg.

D-Leethal
07-07-2012, 12:43 PM
What a surprise. No one responds. You ask for legit argument and get zilch. NBA forum. Keep hating with nada to back it up.

D-Leethal
07-07-2012, 12:46 PM
You need to understand tho no one will call him underrated cause the media like you said ran with his story and for that very reason most people will call him overrated cause the media road his jock. In reality as someone who has seen him play since high school he could become a very good pg in the right system but the sample size is far too small he will need to prove it next year and it will be very interesting to see if he can become that or just a solid pg.

IMO, the fact that the media ran with his **** is the reason he's underrated. So many non-Knick fans use that as fuel to give him zero credit at all. He didn't want Linsanity, you can't hold the fact that the media blew up his story against him. He's a great young PG. Not many PG's in the last couple years are better than him. Facts are facts.

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 01:08 PM
teammelo15, still waiting for you to post those analysts that thought the knicks would be a 7 seed last year...

Losoway
07-07-2012, 01:15 PM
lin was sign because he BRING REVENUE

lin single handley got the knicks msg channel back on time warner and a bunch of other stuff media wise

he is worth the lil 30 mil they gonna give him in return for all the millions he is gonna make them right back

D-Leethal
07-07-2012, 01:18 PM
teammelo15, still waiting for you to post those analysts that thought the knicks would be a 7 seed last year...

and than can you explain in detail how Lin is 'an average backup' or you can just admit you were just being a dumbass

LongIslandIcedZ
07-07-2012, 01:23 PM
Huh? Pretty sure analysts thought the Knicks were a top 4 team. You guys has melo amare and chandler

Please show me these analysts that thought the Knicks would be a 7 seed

Hollinger did.

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 01:32 PM
Hollinger did.

so just one analyst out of the hundreds?

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 01:34 PM
and than can you explain in detail how Lin is 'an average backup' or you can just admit you were just being a dumbass

He is avg backup for sure. Im not going to let a small sample size agaisnt poor competition influence my opinion. I can understand some of the homers thinking he is a top 15 PG, lmao.

Ill21
07-07-2012, 01:36 PM
Overrated by Knicks fans, underrated by everyone else.

I think Lin is going to be a 14 and 8 guy

Cali4rnia
07-07-2012, 01:42 PM
Hope he does well. It took him awhile to get to where he is at. Give him benefit of the doubt.

Max.This
07-07-2012, 01:45 PM
People are just not used to seeing a man of his "skin color" succeeding and thats the truth whether people admit it or not. They look at him and say hes going to do bad here and give one game out of 30 as their evidence to say he will suck. Theres no point in arguing because if he was on your team, you'd be sitting on the other end defending him right now.

KniCks4LiFe
07-07-2012, 01:47 PM
This is my honest thought.

w/ Melo

12 PPG
6 APG
4 RPG
48% FG
39% 3PT

w/o Melo

16 PPG
9 APG
5 RPG
49% FG
41% 3PT

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 01:47 PM
People are just not used to seeing a man of his "skin color" succeeding and thats the truth whether people admit it or not. They look at him and say hes going to do bad here and give one game out of 30 as their evidence to say he will suck. Theres no point in arguing because if he was on your team, you'd be sitting on the other end defending him right now.

:facepalm:

No need to bring race into this. He is very athletic and young, my problem with lin is his small sample size, and seeing what happened to him when a good defensive team game planned for him.

I will happily eat crow if he turns out to be a good PG for a whole 82 game season, but im not going to let a 20 game sample size vs inferior competition cloud my judgement.

^and i agree with knicks4life, he will be better without melo on the floor, but most guys are

b@llhog24
07-07-2012, 01:49 PM
Why exactly do you want to see him fail so badly? Would him having a bad year next year make you feel better about yourself? Would you suddenly have a better life? Would it make your team suddenly better?

All Lin ever did was play.

He never trashed anyone, he didn't ask the media to put him on a pedastel, he didn't ask for the Fans to hype him up or down, he didn't force the owners to give him offers, he never took credit for any success, he always gave credit to his team mates and coaches, he didn't act like an idiot off the court, he always takes responsibility for his mistakes,... hell, he even went to Kris Humphries and told him that he felt sympathy for the abuse he takes over his divorce, and took time to have lunch with the fired reporter from ESPN and didn't say a word to the Media (the reporter let the cat out of the bag).

And yet you want him to Fail? What has Lin ever done to you? What has he done except try his best and been an all around good guy?

For a guy that did nothing but Struggle, work Hard, get an education at a top school, and overcome Hardship on his way to the NBA you sure seem invested in his failure.

It seems like an awful lot of Hatred for a guy you've never met.

:clap:


Although I was mesmerized by "Lin-Sanity" a it's hard not to stat inflate in a Dantoni system. I believe he is a solid roll player. Back up PG, in a "chalmers-esqu roll", or just a average starting PG

Lol they don't even run the SSOL offense anymore.


Over rated, He still needs time to develop... Bust & Over paid so far...

He went undrafted, how can he be a bust? :confused:


This. If he put up the same numbers in Minny, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Not over, not under... somewhere in the middle. And that's exactly what NY needs.

When Yao Ming gets voted into the all-star games and only played 13 games, never underestimate the power of the Asian Market.


I wouldn't say he's overrated. I think overhyped is the better word

Bingo.


I voted that he's getting hated on jsut because there wasn't a middle option...I dont think he's an all-star nor a bust..he'll be what he averaged at the end..a 12 and 6 guard..if Dragic is getting that money for hiss 11 and 6 so should Lin, end transmission

It's not the same thing but I get your premise.


Underrated and hated by the hoopleheads. You see him at least twice next season and have to answer for your indiscretions.

Lol Homer Alert. :D


....

Can someone really justify this guy being underrated...???

He's the most overrated player in the last 15 years of basketball, right up there with Flip Murray.

To put up the run that he had means you at least had to have talent in the first place, some people are saying he's a bust (when he went undrafted), he'll never improve (despite the fact that he's 23) and that he sucks because the best perimeter defensive team in Miami shut him down.


so just one analyst out of the hundreds?

He hits his marks more than most.

KnickaBocka.44
07-07-2012, 01:52 PM
He is avg backup for sure. Im not going to let a small sample size agaisnt poor competition influence my opinion. I can understand some of the homers thinking he is a top 15 PG, lmao.


Got news for ya buddy, the small sample size is the only evidence there is . If you choose to ignore it then you have no facts to back up your opinion. And the Lakers/Mavs games were 2 of his best, in addition to the fact that some of the worse teams he went against had some of the most talented/promising pg's (Nets- D Wil, Wizards- Wall, Cavs- Irving).


For some reason you seem to think that your opinion on basketball is above any statistical analysis and anyone elses opinion despite the fact that you can never back any of your claims up.

b@llhog24
07-07-2012, 01:57 PM
:facepalm:

No need to bring race into this. He is very athletic and young, my problem with lin is his small sample size, and seeing what happened to him when a good defensive team game planned for him.

I will happily eat crow if he turns out to be a good PG for a whole 82 game season, but im not going to let a 20 game sample size vs inferior competition cloud my judgement.

^and i agree with knicks4life, he will be better without melo on the floor, but most guys are

Proof?

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 01:57 PM
Got news for ya buddy, the small sample size is the only evidence there is . If you choose to ignore it then you have no facts to back up your opinion. And the Lakers/Mavs games were 2 of his best, in addition to the fact that some of the worse teams he went against had some of the most talented/promising pg's (Nets- D Wil, Wizards- Wall, Cavs- Irving).


For some reason you seem to think that your opinion on basketball is above any statistical analysis and anyone elses opinion despite the fact that you can never back any of your claims up.

How did he do against mario chalmers and norris cole?

like i said, let me see him play good for a whole season.

TeamSeattle
07-07-2012, 01:58 PM
Proof?

Really though he must get his bball news strictly from espn if he really believes that Melo is the sole problem on the knicks.

Kashmir13579
07-07-2012, 01:59 PM
Justinum why don't you just admit the Knicks are what you think about when you wake up in the morning

torocan
07-07-2012, 02:06 PM
He is avg backup for sure. Im not going to let a small sample size agaisnt poor competition influence my opinion. I can understand some of the homers thinking he is a top 15 PG, lmao.

Mathematically, saying he's an "average" back up would put him behind all the starting PG's (30) and half the back up pg's (15).

If you used...

APER - Beno Urdih (5.9 ppg/3.8 ast, 13.13 PER, 13.46 APER)
PER - Jason Kidd (6.2 ppg/5.5 ast, 13.13 PER, 12.82 APER)
PPG - Greivis Vasquez (8.9 ppg/2.6 ast, 14.35 PER, 15.50 APER)
APG - Brandon Knight (12.8 ppg/3.8 ast, 11.69 PER, 12.37 APER)

Lin 11/12 (14.6 ppg, 6.1 apg, 19.86 PER, 22.55 APER)

Are you REALLY going to argue he's an "average" back up? And based on what standard/advanced stats?

And what poor competition are you referring to? Post Miami he was above his season average (which included 10 garbage minute games), and his games were against mostly .500+ teams. Here are all the games after Miami (when he was supposedly figured out...)

Cleveland 19/13
Boston 14/5
Dallas 14/7
Spurs 20/3
Bucks 20/13
76ers 14/7
Bulls 15/8 (Last game with D'Antoni)
Portland 6/6 (23 minutes, blowout - first game with Woodson)
Indiana 13/5
Indiana 19/6
Toronto 18/10
76ers 18/3
Toronto 6/4 (26 mins, playing with a sore knee on last minute decision)
Detroit 13/3 (last game before limping off the floor for surgery)

I don't see lots of "weak" competition, or any substantial regression except for the last 2 games where he was clearly hurt.

What I did see was Lin becoming the #3 shooting option, a change to the half-court set, and his average minutes were cut under Woodson (from 34 mins/game to 28 mins/game)

So, on what basis are you arguing that he's an "average backup"? It's one thing to say that based on the small sample size that "you don't know" or you aren't "sure"... but to say he's an average back up PG?

What is your reasoning? Mine is based on his performance pre and post Miami, under D'Antoni and Woodson, against strong and weak competition.

What's your basis? Or is this just an "impression" of ONE game against Miami? By that logic you might as well argue that Harden is a scrub based on his Finals no show...

Captain Moroni
07-07-2012, 02:08 PM
If you going to conduct a poll, have a middle ground that people can vote on. Simply going gangbusters or bust is unfair to Jeremy Lin.
If you ask his question....
Is Obama the best president ever or severely overrated the Obama supporters will vote best ever even if the cant stand him and the conservatives will say overrated. There has to be another choice.

I am a Knicks fan. I think Lin is pretty darn good, not an allstar yet but a solid young PG. problem with this poll is that there is no option or that.

Anyone not a Knicks fan isn't going to say he's great.

Weezy
07-07-2012, 02:09 PM
Mathematically, saying he's an "average" back up would put him behind all the starting PG's (30) and half the back up pg's (15).

If you used...

APER - Beno Urdih (5.9 ppg/3.8 ast, 13.13 PER, 13.46 APER)
PER - Jason Kidd (6.2 ppg/5.5 ast, 13.13 PER, 12.82 APER)
PPG - Greivis Vasquez (8.9 ppg/2.6 ast, 14.35 PER, 15.50 APER)
APG - Brandon Knight (12.8 ppg/3.8 ast, 11.69 PER, 12.37 APER)

Lin 11/12 (14.6 ppg, 6.1 apg, 19.86 PER, 22.55 APER)

Are you REALLY going to argue he's an "average" back up? And based on what standard/advanced stats?

And what poor competition are you referring to? Post Miami he was above his season average (which included 10 garbage minute games), and his games were against mostly .500+ teams. Here are all the games after Miami (when he was supposedly figured out...)

Cleveland 19/13
Boston 14/5
Dallas 14/7
Spurs 20/3
Bucks 20/13
76ers 14/7
Bulls 15/8 (Last game with D'Antoni)
Portland 6/6 (23 minutes, blowout - first game with Woodson)
Indiana 13/5
Indiana 19/6
Toronto 18/10
76ers 18/3
Toronto 6/4 (26 mins, playing with a sore knee on last minute decision)
Detroit 13/3 (last game before limping off the floor for surgery)

I don't see lots of "weak" competition, or any substantial regression except for the last 2 games where he was clearly hurt.

What I did see was Lin becoming the #3 shooting option, a change to the half-court set, and his average minutes were cut under Woodson (from 34 mins/game to 28 mins/game)

So, on what basis are you arguing that he's an "average backup"? It's one thing to say that based on the small sample size that "you don't know" or you aren't "sure"... but to say he's an average back up PG?

What is your reasoning? Mine is based on his performance pre and post Miami, under D'Antoni and Woodson, against strong and weak competition.

What's your basis? Or is this just an "impression" of ONE game against Miami? By that logic you might as well argue that Harden is a scrub based on his Finals no show...

Toro, why are you even responding with facts and good analysis?? Justin will prolly just respond with 10 words and call it a day. You're wasting your time.

Max.This
07-07-2012, 02:09 PM
Mathematically, saying he's an "average" back up would put him behind all the starting PG's (30) and half the back up pg's (15).

If you used...

APER - Beno Urdih (5.9 ppg/3.8 ast, 13.13 PER, 13.46 APER)
PER - Jason Kidd (6.2 ppg/5.5 ast, 13.13 PER, 12.82 APER)
PPG - Greivis Vasquez (8.9 ppg/2.6 ast, 14.35 PER, 15.50 APER)
APG - Brandon Knight (12.8 ppg/3.8 ast, 11.69 PER, 12.37 APER)

Lin 11/12 (14.6 ppg, 6.1 apg, 19.86 PER, 22.55 APER)

Are you REALLY going to argue he's an "average" back up? And based on what standard/advanced stats?

And what poor competition are you referring to? Post Miami he was above his season average (which included 10 garbage minute games), and his games were against mostly .500+ teams. Here are all the games after Miami (when he was supposedly figured out...)

Cleveland 19/13
Boston 14/5
Dallas 14/7
Spurs 20/3
Bucks 20/13
76ers 14/7
Bulls 15/8 (Last game with D'Antoni)
Portland 6/6 (23 minutes, blowout - first game with Woodson)
Indiana 13/5
Indiana 19/6
Toronto 18/10
76ers 18/3
Toronto 6/4 (26 mins, playing with a sore knee on last minute decision)
Detroit 13/3 (last game before limping off the floor for surgery)

I don't see lots of "weak" competition, or any substantial regression except for the last 2 games where he was clearly hurt.

What I did see was Lin becoming the #3 shooting option, a change to the half-court set, and his average minutes were cut under Woodson (from 34 mins/game to 28 mins/game)

So, on what basis are you arguing that he's an "average backup"? It's one thing to say that based on the small sample size that "you don't know" or you aren't "sure"... but to say he's an average back up PG?

What is your reasoning? Mine is based on his performance pre and post Miami, under D'Antoni and Woodson, against strong and weak competition.

What's your basis? Or is this just an "impression" of ONE game against Miami? By that logic you might as well argue that Harden is a scrub based on his Finals no show...

Thank you.

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 02:10 PM
Mathematically, saying he's an "average" back up would put him behind all the starting PG's (30) and half the back up pg's (15).

If you used...

APER - Beno Urdih (5.9 ppg/3.8 ast, 13.13 PER, 13.46 APER)
PER - Jason Kidd (6.2 ppg/5.5 ast, 13.13 PER, 12.82 APER)
PPG - Greivis Vasquez (8.9 ppg/2.6 ast, 14.35 PER, 15.50 APER)
APG - Brandon Knight (12.8 ppg/3.8 ast, 11.69 PER, 12.37 APER)

Lin 11/12 (14.6 ppg, 6.1 apg, 19.86 PER, 22.55 APER)

Are you REALLY going to argue he's an "average" back up? And based on what standard/advanced stats?

And what poor competition are you referring to? Post Miami he was above his season average (which included 10 garbage minute games), and his games were against mostly .500+ teams. Here are all the games after Miami (when he was supposedly figured out...)

Cleveland 19/13
Boston 14/5
Dallas 14/7
Spurs 20/3
Bucks 20/13
76ers 14/7
Bulls 15/8 (Last game with D'Antoni)
Portland 6/6 (23 minutes, blowout - first game with Woodson)
Indiana 13/5
Indiana 19/6
Toronto 18/10
76ers 18/3
Toronto 6/4 (26 mins, playing with a sore knee on last minute decision)
Detroit 13/3 (last game before limping off the floor for surgery)

I don't see lots of "weak" competition, or any substantial regression except for the last 2 games where he was clearly hurt.

What I did see was Lin becoming the #3 shooting option, a change to the half-court set, and his average minutes were cut under Woodson (from 34 mins/game to 28 mins/game)

So, on what basis are you arguing that he's an "average backup"? It's one thing to say that based on the small sample size that "you don't know" or you aren't "sure"... but to say he's an average back up PG?

What is your reasoning? Mine is based on his performance pre and post Miami, under D'Antoni and Woodson, against strong and weak competition.

What's your basis? Or is this just an "impression"?

It's an impression. Like i said, im not going to take a small sample size and consider that to be his norm going forward. If he avg 14/8+ next season then i will happily say he is a top 10 PG, but as of right now, he is a decent back up to me.

No one knew anything about lin, what his tendencies were, how to guard him...when a team did do some homework for him(miami) we saw what happened, and that was mario chalmers who some wouldn't even call a top 20PG.

So i will wait to see what he can do for a sample size of more than 25games.

Props on getting all those stats and facts.

Also, since you watch the knicks, which of those games was melo playing in and which was he out? thx

KniCks4LiFe
07-07-2012, 02:10 PM
How did he do against mario chalmers and norris cole?

like i said, let me see him play good for a whole season.

I understand this. But and I have to say this. There were about 15 games after that. Chalmers and Norris weren't the best defenders he faced in the 25 game stretch.

I just think, we're not thinking enough that it could be that it's more possible that Chalmers and Norris had one lucky night against him. I don't think you put Lin against them 9 out 10 times that they will lock him up.

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 02:13 PM
I understand this. But and I have to say this. There were about 15 games after that. Chalmers and Norris weren't the best defenders he faced in the 25 game stretch.

I just think, we're not thinking enought that it could be that it's more possible that Chalmers and Norris had one lucky night against him. I don't think you put Lin against them 9 out 10 times that they will lock him up.

Fair assumption, im looking forward to seeing how he does for a whole season. If he proves me wrong then cool.

b@llhog24
07-07-2012, 02:15 PM
Mathematically, saying he's an "average" back up would put him behind all the starting PG's (30) and half the back up pg's (15).

If you used...

APER - Beno Urdih (5.9 ppg/3.8 ast, 13.13 PER, 13.46 APER)
PER - Jason Kidd (6.2 ppg/5.5 ast, 13.13 PER, 12.82 APER)
PPG - Greivis Vasquez (8.9 ppg/2.6 ast, 14.35 PER, 15.50 APER)
APG - Brandon Knight (12.8 ppg/3.8 ast, 11.69 PER, 12.37 APER)

Lin 11/12 (14.6 ppg, 6.1 apg, 19.86 PER, 22.55 APER)

Are you REALLY going to argue he's an "average" back up? And based on what standard/advanced stats?

And what poor competition are you referring to? Post Miami he was above his season average (which included 10 garbage minute games), and his games were against mostly .500+ teams. Here are all the games after Miami (when he was supposedly figured out...)

Cleveland 19/13
Boston 14/5
Dallas 14/7
Spurs 20/3
Bucks 20/13
76ers 14/7
Bulls 15/8 (Last game with D'Antoni)
Portland 6/6 (23 minutes, blowout - first game with Woodson)
Indiana 13/5
Indiana 19/6
Toronto 18/10
76ers 18/3
Toronto 6/4 (26 mins, playing with a sore knee on last minute decision)
Detroit 13/3 (last game before limping off the floor for surgery)

I don't see lots of "weak" competition, or any substantial regression except for the last 2 games where he was clearly hurt.

What I did see was Lin becoming the #3 shooting option, a change to the half-court set, and his average minutes were cut under Woodson (from 34 mins/game to 28 mins/game)

So, on what basis are you arguing that he's an "average backup"? It's one thing to say that based on the small sample size that "you don't know" or you aren't "sure"... but to say he's an average back up PG?

What is your reasoning? Mine is based on his performance pre and post Miami, under D'Antoni and Woodson, against strong and weak competition.

What's your basis? Or is this just an "impression" of ONE game against Miami? By that logic you might as well argue that Harden is a scrub based on his Finals no show...

Not that I have a problem with your post but why is it that everybody is against APER?


Toro, why are you even responding with facts and good analysis?? Justin will prolly just respond with 10 words and call it a day. You're wasting your time.

Lol.


It's an impression. Like i said, im not going to take a small sample size and consider that to be his norm going forward. If he avg 14/8+ next season then i will happily say he is a top 10 PG, but as of right now, he is a decent back up to me.

No one knew anything about lin, what his tendencies were, how to guard him...when a team did do some homework for him(miami) we saw what happened, and that was mario chalmers who some wouldn't even call a top 20PG.

So i will wait to see what he can do for a sample size of more than 25games.

Props on getting all those stats and facts.

Also, since you watch the knicks, which of those games was melo playing in and which was he out? thx

14 and 8 is not top 10 pg numbers.

torocan
07-07-2012, 02:16 PM
Toro, why are you even responding with facts and good analysis?? Justin will prolly just respond with 10 words and call it a day. You're wasting your time.

It's all of our responsibilities to point out when Facts and Statistics are ignored. What those facts mean is another debate entirely.

Ideally, this is a forum for meaningful basketball discussion... and for this to remain a meaningful forum, then it's important for us to challenge each other otherwise this becomes a place of blind homer/hate threads.

If Justinuum sees something that I'm overlooking, I'm happy to consider it. I would hope he feels the same.

KniCks4LiFe
07-07-2012, 02:17 PM
Fair assumption, im looking forward to seeing how he does for a whole season. If he proves me wrong then cool.

that's all I'm saying. I honestly have no opinion on the lux tax that his contract. Dolan is making $$$ off him, Lin's earned the right to hit his pockets, and it's not like they are going to upgrade the team in the future w/o realistically trading Melo or Chandler and Melo. So this right now is what we have a nice team that might make the 2nd round and vets will swarm to at the end of their career for a pay day.

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 02:20 PM
It's all of our responsibilities to point out when Facts and Statistics are ignored. What those facts mean is another debate entirely.

Ideally, this is a forum for meaningful basketball discussion... and for this to remain a meaningful forum, then it's important for us to challenge each other otherwise this becomes a place of blind homer/hate threads.

If Justinuum sees something that I'm overlooking, I'm happy to consider it. I would hope he feels the same.

Im not going to deny the numbers lin put up during that 25 game period were anything less than impressive. But i also am not going to allow that small sample size to influence my opinion of him. Let me see him put up those numbers for a whole season then i will happily say he is a top pg.

torocan
07-07-2012, 02:20 PM
Not that I have a problem with your post but why is it that everybody is against APER?

No idea myself. I think maybe because PER gets more press? Like any advanced stat, I take it with a grain of salt, but it's not bad as a guide post.


14 and 8 is not top 10 pg numbers.

Agreed. Right now I consider Lin's performance overall last year to make him an average starter... 15th give or take. That said, I don't think that's the best he'll ever, ever, ever be.

No player is static when they're learning, especially the younger ones. He could stay where he is, in theory he could get worse, I think it's more likely he'll improve as his decision making and experience improve, especially with a player like Kidd to help him in his development.

***All games I listed were post-Miami, Melo and STAT were in every game.

Weezy
07-07-2012, 02:21 PM
It's all of our responsibilities to point out when Facts and Statistics are ignored. What those facts mean is another debate entirely.

Ideally, this is a forum for meaningful basketball discussion... and for this to remain a meaningful forum, then it's important for us to challenge each other otherwise this becomes a place of blind homer/hate threads.

If Justinuum sees something that I'm overlooking, I'm happy to consider it. I would hope he feels the same.

I completely understand but when you are arguing with someone who is not using facts and instead going by impressions is it worthy of having a solid discussion? I'll pass and I have for the past two years with that certain poster.

TeamSeattle
07-07-2012, 02:23 PM
Im not going to deny the numbers lin put up during that 25 game period were anything less than impressive. But i also am not going to allow that small sample size to influence my opinion of him. Let me see him put up those numbers for a whole season then i will happily say he is a top pg.

Your still ignoring the facts and repeating yourself over and over again. Deal with reality buddy; one game against your precious heat doesn't neglect the other 24 games where he played decent ball and against some good opponents.

torocan
07-07-2012, 02:30 PM
Your still ignoring the facts and repeating yourself over and over again. Deal with reality buddy; one game against your precious heat doesn't neglect the other 24 games where he played decent ball and against some good opponents.

Justinuum is entitled to his opinions. Essentially, he's saying that for him the jury is out which is not unfair. I think if he'd just said from the start that it was just his "impression" vs arguing the Miami game, this thread would have taken a different direction.

How that translates to middling back up PG, I have no idea... but it is his opinion, and if that's his impression that's his impression.

Personally, I feel 25 games is enough to form a basic impression given his overall consistency but that's just me.

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 02:33 PM
Justinuum is entitled to his opinions. Essentially, he's saying that for him the jury is out which is not unfair. I think if he'd just said from the start that it was just his "impression" vs arguing the Miami game, this thread would have taken a different direction.

How that translates to middling back up PG, I have no idea... but it is his opinion, and if that's his impression that's his impression.

Personally, I feel 25 games is enough to form a basic impression given his overall consistency but that's just me.

Fair enough, and based on those 25games, i do agree that is was one of the most impressive runs from someone that came from nowhere...but i just want to see how he plays when teams have a chance to game plan for him, know what his strengths and weaknesses are, etc..

b@llhog24
07-07-2012, 02:35 PM
No idea myself. I think maybe because PER gets more press? Like any advanced stat, I take it with a grain of salt, but it's not bad as a guide post.

Hmm maybe, hope someone sees it and gives a more substantiated opinion.


Agreed. Right now I consider Lin's performance overall last year to make him an average starter... 15th give or take. That said, I don't think that's the best he'll ever, ever, ever be.

Yea he's probably around 20 without putting too much thought into, any case for top 15 will probably get overshadowed by his sample size, like everyone else I'm waiting on a full season of "Linsanity" to base my evaluation on.


No player is static when they're learning, especially the younger ones. He could stay where he is, in theory he could get worse, I think it's more likely he'll improve as his decision making and experience improve, especially with a player like Kidd to help him in his development.

***All games I listed were post-Miami, Melo and STAT were in every game.

If he stays were he is he's probably a top 20 pg, which is basically a starter in any event. His turnover problems don't really worry me, he won't be Cp3 or nothing with them but if he can get them around +/-3 I'd be satisfied.

Weezy
07-07-2012, 02:38 PM
If he stays were he is he's probably a top 20 pg, which is basically a starter in any event. His turnover problems don't really worry me, he won't be Cp3 or nothing with them but if he can get them around +/-3 I'd be satisfied.

IMO the TO numbers are overblown because its Jeremy Lin and his story was overblown like no tomorrow. Based on how much he handles the ball his TO is not that crazy compared to other PGs in the league. Regardless, hes young and he will learn. I think most Knicks should just be happy to watch him and Shumpert develop as the backcourt.

SluggeR
07-07-2012, 02:44 PM
The jury is still out, but one things for sure; he made the most out of his opportunity.

b@llhog24
07-07-2012, 02:53 PM
IMO the TO numbers are overblown because its Jeremy Lin and his story was overblown like no tomorrow. Based on how much he handles the ball his TO is not that crazy compared to other PGs in the league. Regardless, hes young and he will learn. I think most Knicks should just be happy to watch him and Shumpert develop as the backcourt.

Apparently Deron Williams gets a pass. :shrug:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=tov_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=15&c2stat=usg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=25&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=usg_pct

D-Leethal
07-07-2012, 02:55 PM
How did he do against mario chalmers and norris cole?

like i said, let me see him play good for a whole season.

LOL, can you explain logically how one bad game with a ton of good ones after that defines a player and his season? Do you hold any other player in the NBA to the same standards? Is Jose Calderon the Kyrie stopper? Your argument is super weak but I commend you for being the only hater on here to at least try and defend your super weak argument. Everybody else has conveniently ran away from the thread after getting their baseless jabs in.


Mathematically, saying he's an "average" back up would put him behind all the starting PG's (30) and half the back up pg's (15).

If you used...

APER - Beno Urdih (5.9 ppg/3.8 ast, 13.13 PER, 13.46 APER)
PER - Jason Kidd (6.2 ppg/5.5 ast, 13.13 PER, 12.82 APER)
PPG - Greivis Vasquez (8.9 ppg/2.6 ast, 14.35 PER, 15.50 APER)
APG - Brandon Knight (12.8 ppg/3.8 ast, 11.69 PER, 12.37 APER)

Lin 11/12 (14.6 ppg, 6.1 apg, 19.86 PER, 22.55 APER)

Are you REALLY going to argue he's an "average" back up? And based on what standard/advanced stats?

And what poor competition are you referring to? Post Miami he was above his season average (which included 10 garbage minute games), and his games were against mostly .500+ teams. Here are all the games after Miami (when he was supposedly figured out...)

Cleveland 19/13
Boston 14/5
Dallas 14/7
Spurs 20/3
Bucks 20/13
76ers 14/7
Bulls 15/8 (Last game with D'Antoni)
Portland 6/6 (23 minutes, blowout - first game with Woodson)
Indiana 13/5
Indiana 19/6
Toronto 18/10
76ers 18/3
Toronto 6/4 (26 mins, playing with a sore knee on last minute decision)
Detroit 13/3 (last game before limping off the floor for surgery)

I don't see lots of "weak" competition, or any substantial regression except for the last 2 games where he was clearly hurt.

What I did see was Lin becoming the #3 shooting option, a change to the half-court set, and his average minutes were cut under Woodson (from 34 mins/game to 28 mins/game)

So, on what basis are you arguing that he's an "average backup"? It's one thing to say that based on the small sample size that "you don't know" or you aren't "sure"... but to say he's an average back up PG?

What is your reasoning? Mine is based on his performance pre and post Miami, under D'Antoni and Woodson, against strong and weak competition.

What's your basis? Or is this just an "impression" of ONE game against Miami? By that logic you might as well argue that Harden is a scrub based on his Finals no show...

That is what I like to call owned. Nice work Toro, you scared everyone away nobody in this forum can rebut that masterpiece.

You should re-post the one listing all the great NBA players laying complete dud games in their first and second seasons worse than Lin's game against MIA. If I remember correctly DWades was the best.

Weezy
07-07-2012, 03:02 PM
Apparently Deron Williams gets a pass. :shrug:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=tov_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=15&c2stat=usg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=25&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=usg_pct

Lol wow, I never realized this for Deron last year. Good find. Check out Kyrie also but yet again hes 19, just like Lin I think they will both learn to reduce those TO numbers

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 03:03 PM
LOL, can you explain logically how one bad game with a ton of good ones after that defines a player and his season? Do you hold any other player in the NBA to the same standards? Is Jose Calderon the Kyrie stopper? Your argument is super weak but I commend you for being the only hater on here to at least try and defend your super weak argument. Everybody else has conveniently ran away from the thread after getting their baseless jabs in.



That is what I like to call owned. Nice work Toro, you scared everyone away nobody in this forum can rebut that masterpiece.

You should re-post the one listing all the great NBA players laying complete dud games in their first and second seasons worse than Lin's game against MIA. If I remember correctly DWades was the best.

Has jose calderon played more than 25 games? and lol at you trying to compare and undrafted rookie playing 25 games to wade. nice try, good effort.

D-Leethal
07-07-2012, 03:07 PM
Has jose calderon played more than 25 games? and lol at you trying to compare and undrafted rookie playing 25 games to wade. nice try, good effort.

Huh? You obviously couldn't grasp what I was saying.

Check Kyrie Irving's games against TOR and NOH last year. They were god awful. Why doesn't that define Kyries season? If Norris Cole is the Lin stopper what does that make Jose Calderon? The Kyrie stopper? Get it now? Need more help?

And how am I comparing Lin to Wade? Toro had posted in the Knicks forum a list of great NBA players who layed complete duds in their rookie and sophomore years. Wades IIRC was the worst one with something like 10 turnovers. The point is, everyone has bad games early on in their careers, thats how it works, even the greatest players to ever play. So why does a bad game against the best D in the league in what was basically the dudes rookie season define what he will be? James Harden a scrub too?

Your argument is weak, and you lack reading comprehension skills. Good job, good effort.

John Walls Era
07-07-2012, 03:08 PM
Overrated by Knicks fans

Kind of underrated by others.

D-Leethal
07-07-2012, 03:10 PM
Overrated by Knicks fans

Kind of underrated by others.

I think thats fair.

justinnum1
07-07-2012, 03:12 PM
Huh? You obviously couldn't grasp what I was saying.

Check Kyrie Irving's games against TOR and NOH last year. They were god awful. Why doesn't that define Kyries season? If Norris Cole is the Lin stopper what does that make Jose Calderon? The Kyrie stopper? Get it now? Need more help?

And how am I comparing Lin to Wade? Toro had posted in the Knicks forum a list of great NBA players who layed complete duds in their rookie and sophomore years. Wades IIRC was the worst one with something like 10 turnovers. The point is, everyone has bad games early on in their careers, thats how it works, even the greatest players to ever play. So why does a bad game against the best D in the league in what was basically the dudes rookie season define what he will be? James Harden a scrub too?

Your argument is weak, and you lack reading comprehension skills. Good job, good effort.

Im over that one bad game by lin...i brought that up to show what happens when a team actually game plans for someone. you are a homer so i wont expect you to have a rational opinion on lin.

We will just have to see how he plays for a full season.

29$JerZ
07-07-2012, 03:19 PM
He's overrated to everyone sick of hearing his name.
That's where it ends. He has a bright future.

And that one Miami game where he got shut down really doesn't mean anything.
The entire body of work means more than 1 game.

He still has a lot to prove since his sample size isn't the largest but there really is nothing about his game you can legitimately call overrated. He is extremely reckless and urnover prone but is money late in games and improved his jump shot and driving compared to his first few games as he continued to pile up starts.

Robbw241
07-07-2012, 03:20 PM
Can he be "overrated" and not "a bust"? I vote for that

Fmaranesi
07-07-2012, 03:23 PM
Rated where he should be, childish posters won't change my opinion that he is a good young point guard with more room to grow.

D-Leethal
07-07-2012, 03:25 PM
Im over that one bad game by lin...i brought that up to show what happens when a team actually game plans for someone. you are a homer so i wont expect you to have a rational opinion on lin.

We will just have to see how he plays for a full season.

Your over it? Since when 1 hour ago or once Toro made you look like a clown? What did every other team just decide not to game plan for Lin except the Heat? Your argument is weak.

How is my opinion not rational? I never claimed him to be a top 10 PG or even top 15 but he might be this season and all signs point to him being a very good PG in the future. Your opinion is based off completely writing off the only evidence that is there to form your opinion. Instead of saying 'its a small sample size but he played very good for a 2nd year PG' you say 'not enough sample size, he's average backup'....you admit you write off the sample size and than form a negative opinion based on absolutely nothing. Thats blind hating to the first degree.

And if you want to say there is no chance he could be top 15 next year, use some evidence to back it up. Saying he was average backup didn't work out too well for ya.

29$JerZ
07-07-2012, 03:28 PM
Im over that one bad game by lin...i brought that up to show what happens when a team actually game plans for someone. you are a homer so i wont expect you to have a rational opinion on lin.

We will just have to see how he plays for a full season.

Then in the future state your real intention because that post of yours was a very poorly organized argument in regards to Lin.

Quietmoney
07-07-2012, 03:58 PM
Lin is what he is... How good he will be, we'll soon find out. What I don't get is how people say teams wasn't prepared for him and that's why he was able to get off like that. When I hear that garbage, it makes me sick to my stomach! If the reason for his success was that simple, then why don't other undrafted players do it?? No one scouts or watch films on guys at the end of the bench, so everyone that comes in from the end of the bench should be great because teams dont have film on them. I've said this before, and I'll say it again... You don't fluke court vision! You don't fluke a first step, you either have it or you don't. And sorry haters, he has it and will only get better.

Becks2307
07-07-2012, 04:07 PM
Lin is what he is... How good he will be, we'll soon find out. What I don't get is how people say teams wasn't prepared for him and that's why he was able to get off like that. When I hear that garbage, it makes me sick to my stomach! If the reason for his success was that simple, then why don't other undrafted players do it?? No one scouts or watch films on guys at the end of the bench, so everyone that comes in from the end of the bench should be great because teams dont have film on them. I've said this before, and I'll say it again... You don't fluke court vision! You don't fluke a first step, you either have it or you don't. And sorry haters, he has it and will only get better.


YES!

This who "they didn't know how to game plan for him" argument that has been purported time and time again by posters here is the funniest thing ever. As you said if that was the case then 80% of the D Leaguers would be putting up massive numbers in their first couple of games because "they don't know how to gameplan for him."

aLau10
07-07-2012, 11:38 PM
Mathematically, saying he's an "average" back up would put him behind all the starting PG's (30) and half the back up pg's (15).

If you used...

APER - Beno Urdih (5.9 ppg/3.8 ast, 13.13 PER, 13.46 APER)
PER - Jason Kidd (6.2 ppg/5.5 ast, 13.13 PER, 12.82 APER)
PPG - Greivis Vasquez (8.9 ppg/2.6 ast, 14.35 PER, 15.50 APER)
APG - Brandon Knight (12.8 ppg/3.8 ast, 11.69 PER, 12.37 APER)

Lin 11/12 (14.6 ppg, 6.1 apg, 19.86 PER, 22.55 APER)

Are you REALLY going to argue he's an "average" back up? And based on what standard/advanced stats?

And what poor competition are you referring to? Post Miami he was above his season average (which included 10 garbage minute games), and his games were against mostly .500+ teams. Here are all the games after Miami (when he was supposedly figured out...)

Cleveland 19/13
Boston 14/5
Dallas 14/7
Spurs 20/3
Bucks 20/13
76ers 14/7
Bulls 15/8 (Last game with D'Antoni)
Portland 6/6 (23 minutes, blowout - first game with Woodson)
Indiana 13/5
Indiana 19/6
Toronto 18/10
76ers 18/3
Toronto 6/4 (26 mins, playing with a sore knee on last minute decision)
Detroit 13/3 (last game before limping off the floor for surgery)

I don't see lots of "weak" competition, or any substantial regression except for the last 2 games where he was clearly hurt.

What I did see was Lin becoming the #3 shooting option, a change to the half-court set, and his average minutes were cut under Woodson (from 34 mins/game to 28 mins/game)

So, on what basis are you arguing that he's an "average backup"? It's one thing to say that based on the small sample size that "you don't know" or you aren't "sure"... but to say he's an average back up PG?

What is your reasoning? Mine is based on his performance pre and post Miami, under D'Antoni and Woodson, against strong and weak competition.

What's your basis? Or is this just an "impression" of ONE game against Miami? By that logic you might as well argue that Harden is a scrub based on his Finals no show...

My god thank you Toro, you completely shut down all of the haters comments. :clap:

Honestly, justinnum1 not hating or anything but you just cant accept the fact we are proving you wrong, you continuously bring back the same arguments even though you just say you find our arguments fair.

And sorry, like I said the poll options were set with only those two because those were what me and my friends initially took grounds on, so yeah. :(

felixng2012
07-08-2012, 12:07 AM
There is a huge distinction between overhyped and overrated. Jeremy Lin is definitely MASSIVELY overhyped. However, I am not sure if he can even be considered overrated. A lot of people don't even think he is a starting caliber PG. Many people say they would take Felton over him even though he is on decline and Lin has potential to improve. Also he never really got exposed. He still had solid numbers after his horrible game against the Heat and under Woodson. In the end its just one game and it was against a top notch Heat defense determined to humiliate him.

Its like how people consider Blake Griffin overrated when he really isn't. His dunks and highlights are overhyped but its absurd when people say that he can only dunk or he is overrated. Anyone who averages over 20/10 on 50+% shooting is an elite player. You don't get 20 points on good efficiency with only dunks and you don't get over 10 rebs a game if your not a dam good rebounder. Some people don't even think he is a top 20 player which is absurd. He isn't a particularly good defender but over 20/10 is nothing to scoff at.

justinnum1
07-08-2012, 12:11 AM
There is a huge distinction between overhyped and overrated. Jeremy Lin is definitely MASSIVELY overhyped. However, I am not sure if he can even be considered overrated. A lot of people don't even think he is a starting caliber PG. Many people say they would take Felton over him even though he is on decline and Lin has potential to improve. Also he never really got exposed. He still had solid numbers after his horrible game against the Heat and under Woodson. In the end its just one game and it was against a top notch Heat defense determined to humiliate him.

Its like how people consider Blake Griffin overrated when he really isn't. His dunks and highlights are overhyped but its absurd when people say that he can only dunk or he is overrated. Anyone who averages over 20/10 on 50+% shooting is an elite player. You don't get 20 points on good efficiency with only dunks and you don't get over 10 rebs a game if your not a dam good rebounder. Some people don't even think he is a top 20 player which is absurd. He isn't a particularly good defender but over 20/10 is nothing to scoff at.

really?

felixng2012
07-08-2012, 12:17 AM
really?
Overhyped means you get excessive amounts of publicity. It can correlate with being overrated but its not the same. Someone who is overrated is considered a lot than better than they really are. Lin was massively overrated during Linsanity but I don't see many people even calling a top 10 PG or even a top 15 PG right now so I don't think he is overrated at this point. Quite a lot of people including Knicks fans believe that Lin is not good enough to start at the point.

Knick_Fever
07-08-2012, 12:21 AM
And the funny thing is Lin will be an all-star next year.

justinnum1
07-08-2012, 12:22 AM
Overhyped means you get excessive amounts of publicity. It can correlate with being overrated but its not the same. Someone who is overrated is considered a lot than better than they really are. Lin was massively overrated during Linsanity but I don't see many people even calling a top 10 PG or even a top 15 PG right now so I don't think he is overrated at this point. Quite a lot of people including "Knicks" fans believe that Lin is not good enough to start at the point.

I was referring to your comment about people not thinking he is a starting PG. I mean, if he plays like he did over that 25 game span next season then he will for sure be a starting PG, but i need to see it first.



And the funny thing is Lin will be an all-star next year.

he is not being selected because of his talent...he will probably be the leading vote getter tho\

i think their are like over 1.4 billion people that live in china or some crazy number like that. pretty amazing when you think about it

flatbush knicks
07-08-2012, 01:18 AM
where is the option for don't know yet the kid barely played half a season give him a full training camp and 1 full injury free season before you crown him or down him

Vinny642
07-08-2012, 01:55 AM
He is highly overrated but no where near a BUST

LongIslandIcedZ
07-08-2012, 10:35 AM
I dont think he's underrated or overrated. He's an average starting PG, I dont think you'll find anyone that would say any different.

He is however, extremely overhyped.

aLau10
07-10-2012, 12:58 PM
I dont think he's underrated or overrated. He's an average starting PG, I dont think you'll find anyone that would say any different.

He is however, extremely overhyped.

Yeah technically what everyone has been saying, well cept for the haters they jus hate! :p